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  • #2269682

    Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

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    by deiceray ·

    Microsoft has pulled XP off the shelves of every place I’ve looked for it, online they’ve pulled all but the OEM versions, meaning you can no longer upgrade to it. I find that outrageous and manipulative and in the opposite spirit of “support”. I have never heard of that happening, have you? Do you think it’s good business? I haven’t looked into Vista at all, as I thought I could continue with XP for a much longer time. What’s next? Are we going to have to upgrade all programs? Does it even support older software? Does this irritate you as much as it irritates me?

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    • #2537346

      Yep

      by tig2 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Looking into alternatives as I have a family that I support and want them to continue to compute.

      We all got new computers before the end of the year. That insures that we have XP and restore options. I have some 98 and NT originals as well and can keep them safe.

      I have been exploring Linux as an alternative and having some great luck with that. I have to do some re-thinking but in general, Linux is being a positive experience.

      You may be able to find a real XP on ebay. That can be a solution.

      I’m just saying “no” to Microsoft. There are too many good alternatives out there.

      Incidentally, Vista may not even support your older hardware, much less your older software.

      • #2535649

        Yup

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to Yep

        I bought a system last year just in case as well. But I do find this a bad descision, trying to force everybody onto an unsupported OEM license or Vista.

      • #2515989

        Yep

        by codebubba ·

        In reply to Yep

        Tigger,

        I’m not “anti” Vista – but after evaluating it on a machine at the office I’m not interested in putting it on my systems – it doesn’t solve any problems for me.

        I own 5 copies of XP – they’re staying under lock and key!

        -CB 🙂

    • #2537339

      Nothing New

      by thechas ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      This is nothing new.

      Microsoft has been pulling old versions off of the shelf with increasing regularity when a new version is released.

      Actually, this is good business for Microsoft. It allows them to control the support workload and lets them set a clean end date for support.

      Another aspect is the typical consumer. When they go into a store to buy software they typically only buy an older version if it is priced at a deep discount. Most retailers just don’t have the shelf space to stock a product that has a limited market.

      You can still buy XP and additional licenses. So, you can still upgrade to XP and wait on Vista.

      Chas

    • #2537330

      You can still buy retail Windows XP here

      by techexec2 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      .
      You can still buy Windows XP retail versions here (1).

      [b][i]”…Microsoft has pulled XP off the shelves of every place I’ve looked for it, online they’ve pulled all but the OEM versions, meaning you can no longer upgrade to it. I find that outrageous and manipulative and in the opposite spirit of “support”…”[/i][/b]

      It is a waste of time to use reason when it comes to Microsoft. They don’t care. No corporation has a conscience, you know. The people who run them might (varies…BillG?…no), but they separate themselves from the corpus corporatus.

      Simply put: Microsoft thinks they can do anything they want. They defy EVERYBODY including governments. You don’t really think they give a damn what you or I think, do you?

      [b][i]”…Do you think it’s good business?…”[/i][/b]

      It has been so far for them. Microsoft has a very powerful monopoly that the U.S. federal government allows them to keep. Microsoft clears $49 MILLION in [u]profit[/u] EVERY SINGLE DAY ($18 BILLION per year). During Friday happy hour, they celebrate another $343 MILLION in [u]profit[/u] from people like you and me.

      [b][i]”…Are we going to have to upgrade all programs? Does it even support older software?…”[/i][/b]

      If you upgrade to Vista, yes. A lot of applications have problems on Vista, including older releases of MS Office.

      [b][i]”…Does this irritate you as much as it irritates me?…”[/i][/b]

      Not any more. I am completely calm and at peace now. I am NEVER going to upgrade to Vista, and I am just as happy as I can be about it. I’m FREE! And, I’ve been using Windows since 1992 (and still am as I type this).

      This is just like getting out of a bad marriage. Once you decide to do it, the world looks so much brighter! 🙂

      You have all the power you need to be happy with your computer. If you don’t want to upgrade to Vista, and you don’t want to upgrade all of your applications, don’t. There are other options, just like there are other fish in the sea.

      It is no accident that we have Macintosh and Linux and massive amounts of open source as very good options today. It’s up to you to choose.

      ——————————-

      (1) Windows XP retail versions

      Microsoft Windows XP Professional with SP2 – Retail
      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837116195

      Microsoft Windows XP Home Upgrade with SP2 – Retail
      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16837116194

      Windows XP, various versions
      http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/002-5679488-9337636?url=search-alias%3Dsoftware&field-keywords=windows+xp&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go

      • #2515995

        Someone’s a bit resentful…

        by bart99gt ·

        In reply to You can still buy retail Windows XP here

        Woah…calm down!

        Are you still sore that OS/2 didn’t catch on?

        Fact is, Microsoft released a product where there was a relative void beforehand. Apart from the various versions of the MacOS, there have been ZERO legitimate (ie., one that actually has a decent chance of getting widespread acceptance) user friendly desktop operating systems even introduced. Mac never caught on universally simply because it was (and still is) an expensive niche product. If you want to talk about price fixing, look no further than Apple. You either sell their product at the price they specify, or you don’t sell it at all. I’ve looked at various retailers and there is NOBODY that discounts Macs. At least MS gives retailers some pricing leeway. If you’re one of the conspiracy theorists that thinks MS is out to take over the world or whatever, you don’t have to buy their products.

        Linux simply isn’t a viable option until someone comes up with a distro that totally eliminates the need to do things on the command line. Your average joe isn’t going to tolerate having to deal with a prompt to configure or install an application. This is coming from someone who uses Linux, BTW. I could *possibly* get away with setting up a Linux box for my father, but I surely wouldn’t set one up for anyone else in my family.

        I’m not going to feel any sympathy for someone who is still trying to use Office 2000 or Office 97. From the standpoint of someone who works in IT support, there comes a time when you need to upgrade your software, regardless of what your personal feelings are about it. Eventually there comes a time even when 3rd party developers stop supporting an application. Of course, people are quick to forget that *many* Windows 95/98 apps wouldn’t work out of the box with 2000 or XP. They had to be patched or some creative workarounds had to be implemented to make them work. And the same thing happened back then…people swore they’d never upgrade to 2000 or XP because some of their 2-3 year old programs wouldn’t work with them.

        Hardware wise, I’m not sore that my 8 year old Adaptec SCSI card isn’t supported by Vista (and probably never will be). No, manufacturers probably aren’t going to write drivers for alot of older hardware. FWIW, my AMD 64 3200+ with 1GB of RAM works fine with Vista. If there’s anyone to fault for 1-3 year old hardware not being compatible with Vista, its the hardware manufacturers! They’ve had more than enough time to write new drivers, IMHO (Creative anyone??). Of course, these companies are in business to sell NEW hardware and not support someone’s 5 or 6 year old video card forever.

        Lastly, nobody is putting a gun to someone’s head to go out and upgrade to Vista. In fact, if I hadn’t gotten a FREE copy of Ultimate at a launch event, I’d still be plugging away with XP.

        • #2515960

          I’ts OK. Really.

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Someone’s a bit resentful…

          .
          A little bit. I’m just tired of being manipulated by Microsoft. It’s pretty offensive. The capricious DE-activation problems in the Vista WGA have forced me to decide to completely leave Windows on my primary computer. Microsoft’s actions with WGA in Vista are very offensive. They sell $44 BILLION in software each year and clear $18 BILLION profit. That’s fine. There may be a piracy problem, but it’s the kind of problem I would SEEK to have. It certainly isn’t necessary to put hundreds of millions of legitimate customers at risk.

          [b][i]”…Linux simply isn’t a viable option until someone comes up with a distro that totally eliminates the need to do things on the command line…”[/i][/b]

          I don’t know. I can do most things in the GUI with KDE (Fedora 6). I use the command line freely, so I really cannot say if there is anything significant lacking in the KDE GUI.

          I think it’s fine if you want to run Vista. Vista (RC2) runs on my hardware also, complete with Aero Glass. I’m just not going to accept the WGA DE-activation nonsense. I don’t have to. So, I won’t.

          I had an attitude when I made that post. I’m OK. Really. 🙂

        • #2515931

          all good points but…

          by deiceray ·

          In reply to Someone’s a bit resentful…

          My major point remains that it is selfish and customer UNsupportive to summarily pull all copies of their OS’s off the market, forcing you to buy Vista for anything new. It was never that way, period. I can still buy older versions of almost any software you can think of, and you used to be able to that with MS, and I think it’s irresponsible to act this way. They are the overwhelming choice in the entire world for PC OS’s, so why act like software nazi’s?
          Now people all over the world will either
          a. hold off on upgrades
          b. consider Linux
          c. consider Macs
          d. all of the above, PLUS regard MS as an insensitive corporate monopoly (no surprise there) and maybe send a message to them and simply not upgrade
          e. (choice comes down the road) having held off until support/upgrades have vanished from microsoft.com for XP, they will HAVE to go to some other OS.
          It’s all bad. It’s all too bad, because all they had to do was business as usual, and eventually people would come around willingly – now they will only come around grudgingly and with attitude and with a strong desire to ‘get out’ of the MS stranglehold.
          OK, so that was more than one major point; consider it a patch to my first sentence.

        • #2515868

          My memory is a bit fuzzy, but

          by bart99gt ·

          In reply to all good points but…

          I don’t recall 98 or 2000 sitting on the shelves for very long after 2000 and XP (respectively) were introduced.

          Of course it could have been a retailer decision to haul in copies of XP, since it appears that some retailers (mainly online) are still selling what copies of XP they have left in stock. Whatever is on the shelves of a store is actually the property of the retailer, so ultimately its up to them to keep it on the shelves or not.

          Eventually you MUST upgrade your OS or entire computer. Companies stop writing compatible software for older operating systems and hardware support dwindles.

          Let’s step back and take a look at the big picture here. MS is marketing this product to the mass market, not just a small niche of consumers who might happen to keep every single computer they’ve ever owned for the past 5+ years and need an OS for each. Most people aren’t going to run out and upgrade their OS just for the sake of doing so (well, unless you were one of the unlucky folks to buy a computer with Me on it). Most people will only experience Vista for the first time when they retire their old PC and buy a new one that already has Vista loaded on it. These kinds of people don’t know and don’t care that their local computer store or Microsoft (whatever the case may be) pulled XP off the shelves a month after the launch of Vista.

          BTW, it isn’t that hard finding a legal or semi-legal copy of XP. There are probably millions of unused keys on PCs across the country because a business has a VLK copy of XP and never used (or activated) the key that was on the sticker of the 1000 PCs they bought last month. I’m not going to debate the specific legality of this, but anytime I scrap an old PC that has a serial key on it, I write it down. MS probably would poo-poo on this, but as far as I’m concerned, “ownership” has changed hands (albeit to the dump or recycler).

        • #2515849

          What a ridiculous tirade…

          by jusovsky ·

          In reply to all good points but…

          Why this hysteria over Windows Vista being pushed by few retialers? Microsoft doesn’t call the shots, and if said retailers really want to sell XP, Microsoft will gladly sell them more licenses. I verified this with Ingram Micro, D&H distributing, and even Microsoft Licensing sites this morning. It has nothing to do with Microsoft “pulling” anything from the shelves.
          You’d probably be a happier fellow if you removed Microsoft’s nefarious Vista upgrade plans from your conspiracy theories. While you’re at it, accept that JFK was shot by Oswald, the moon isn’t made of cheese and that we really did land on it, and the Republicans are not trying to read your brain waves, so you can stop wearing that hat made of aluminim foil.

        • #2539784

          a quick thought experiment

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to What a ridiculous tirade…

          “[i]Microsoft doesn’t call the shots, and if said retailers really want to sell XP, Microsoft will gladly sell them more licenses.[/i]”

          Imagine for a moment that Microsoft wants to sell Vista, instead of XP (this is obviously the case). Now imagine for a moment that you’re a retailer. Where are you going to get copies of XP to sell if you want to sell them, but Microsoft doesn’t want you to do so? What are you going to do about shrinking profits on Vista, as well, if Microsoft doesn’t give you the same (lower) wholesale prices because you won’t replace the XP stock on your shelves with Vista?

          Are you entirely unaware of how the software industry actually works (particularly when dealing with the major software vendors, like Microsot)?

        • #2521521

          Now That Time Has Proven You All Wrong!

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to a quick thought experiment

          Now that this thread is a whole one month old, you’ve all been proven wrong.

          Most retailers and some OEM’s have, are, and will be bringing XP back.

          So, any apologizes? Apparently, all along you could buy XP and not Vista and apparently those companies (including MS) are being customer friendly.

          End of story…ya’ll are WRONG!

        • #2521516

          haha

          by pringles86 ·

          In reply to Now That Time Has Proven You All Wrong!

          Well… Maybe they shouldn’t have done it in the first place.

          They are just now coming to their senses about it.

        • #2521475

          Still no reading comprehension classes?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Now That Time Has Proven You All Wrong!

          I pointed out that if Microsoft refused to sell XP to OEM vendors, the vendors wouldn’t be able to resell them. That has nothing to do with whether or not Microsoft decided to sell them copies of XP after all.

        • #2521440

          If people hadn’t started threads like this

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Now That Time Has Proven You All Wrong!

          and agitated for them to put XP back on the shelf, the choice wouldn’t be there. DELL and co only make XP available now because they were losing too many sales through people wanting XP not Vista. It’s called a consumer strike back. Or buying power.

        • #2521437

          DE is right

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Now That Time Has Proven You All Wrong!

          Dell is offering XP because of demand for it. Their website for customer feedback was flooded with alternate OS’s besides Vista. Mainly XP and Linux. This is why Dell is now offering both.

          If everyone was just happy and bought up machines with Vista, do you honestly believe that XP would suddenly start flowing again?

        • #2525497

          Ah, Apotheon, I’m Comprehending Just Fine

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Now That Time Has Proven You All Wrong!

          Here’s your quote:

          “Imagine for a moment that Microsoft wants to sell Vista, instead of XP.”

          From that, you are correct, but then you went on to say:

          “this is obviously the case.”

          And then to top it off, you said:

          “Are you entirely unaware of how the software industry actually works”

          OK, so you never did actually say MS stopped but like always, you heavily insinuate and suggest which I believe serves only to mislead the reader and you do it on purpose.

          Once again, you are wrong and have a hard time admitting it.

          MS may have started down the wrong road as far as making XP hard to get a hold of. But a few things.

          1) It was always available
          2) They corrected their actions based on feedback from customers

          That kind of behavior isn’t of a mean spirited, greedy corporation. That kind of behavior to me looks like they responded to customer feedback and responded in a pro-customer service kind of way.

        • #2521515

          Linux Vs Vista

          by breathoffrost002 ·

          In reply to all good points but…

          I got some free versions of linspire, its a nice looking OS with some decent features, and i was able to get it loaded into my system with all the stability you could want

          but

          none of my games worked, it was pretty much net only, and there are plug ins that you can buy to make it work with most windows compatable objects, but then your shelling out like $150 in cnr

          so far vista has been alright, i got it free, its very nice looking, although i did spent a good 12 hours worth of time downloading and installing/reinstalling/reinstalling all the drivers for my MoBo and GFX card, and things still have some issues

          i would say to anyone considering vista, if youve got XP, hold off untill SP1 comes out for vista, unless you have a moderate to high technical knowledge and a good ability to scour the net for working drivers

        • #2521471

          But . . . ?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Linux Vs Vista

          I’m not sure how you could consider the fact that a Linux distribution isn’t a Microsoft Windows release cause for a “but”. If your only purpose is to run software designed for MS Windows, you should stick with MS Windows. If you want a stable, secure platform that has software of its own, however, you might want to look elsewhere.

          Your problem wasn’t software support on Linspire. Your problem was looking for MS Windows software support somewhere other than MS Windows.

        • #2525473

          Great Answer!

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to But . . . ?

          Throw away all your MS software and MS supported software and go 100% open source.

          Oh boy, that’ll speed up the masses converting to open source not to mention virtually eliminate the odds of any business doing so.

          You live in a dream world…

        • #2518701

          You usually have to do that with each new Windows version anyway

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Great Answer!

          Because MS change their instructional code set with each Windows version most third party software, and some MS software, isn’t compatible between versions. So you need to get new copies and shell out more bucks.

          In XP most of my older Windows software and games won’t run, yet they work perfectly in Linux in either WINE or Cedega.

          I have friends at Uni who play NWN and a few other on-line games, the games are written for Windows based systems; yet they all say they see a better game performance on Linux using Cedega than on XP.

          I know many small businesses that are converting to Linux as it’s cheaper for them to buy Crossover to run their few critical Windows applications in than buying the latest versions because their existing versions aren’t compatible with Vista.

          So it all comes down to how much you want to pay and how much trouble you want to go through is 5 or 6 years when the next Windows version comes out.

        • #2518489

          Deadly Ernest – B.S.!

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Great Answer!

          You would like most people to believe you don’t you?

          Yes, some programs were “broken” when XP came about, mostly for security reasons. Just like some programs are “broken” when Vista came out.

          The numbers are much smaller than you imply. I can only think of one (1) program I have that I never got to work in XP when it did work in Win 98 and that is a game called “Shadow President”.

          Needless to say, patches come out to correct issues and yes, occasionally people have to update. Take the whole Quicken issue at hand with Vista (Intuit’s fault not MS…btw).

          But 9 times out of 10 the software that gets “broken” probably is so old it should be replaced anyways.

        • #2518362

          OK here’s an incomplete list and some other comments

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Great Answer!

          I don’t have Vista at home, not prepared to waste the money, but helping someone else try to get their software working on Vista on two machines, upgrading from Windows 2000 and Win 98:

          MS Office 2000 – would not install

          MYOB – would not run properly, kept locking up.

          4 year old colour laser printer no drivers in Vista or from the manufacturer (QMS brand I think from memory).

          4 year old HP scanner no Vista drivers and no default drivers that allowed it to work properly.

          Special Dvorak keyboard drivers wouldn’t install, and the default MS Dvorak conversion software didn’t set it up as a Dvorak keyboard either. Need to map each key to get it right.

          Games that wouldn’t install or run – Ceasar 3, Doom 95, Diablo, Diablo 2, Rise of the Triad, and several other games I can’t remember the name of. I know I couldn’t get some of these games to run properly in XP on my system either. Load an emulator and they would work, but that shouldn’t be needed.

          Businesses need to be able to readily access documents from ten to fifteen years ago as that’s how long some are required to be available for legal reasons, the majority have a minimum life span of 8 years – current tax year plus 7 years for tax laws.

          Office 2003 and 2007 do NOT readily open Word 6 or Word 2a or Excel 4 documents by just clicking on them. Yet Open Office does – seems they’re better programmers than the MS ones.

          Yes, sometimes you do need to update the format of files, in most cases you just add extra capability and that’s stored as extra code at the start or end of the file. But when you have to make a significant change, it’s industry standard practice to give the file a different extension thus the changes to .jpg became .jpeg – this is to allow the system to know which is the which format. MS don’t believe in doing this and just keep .doc and then arbitrarily stop supporting the older versions without making a public announcement. The companies that have older Word and Excel documents are just ‘expected’ to know they need to convert them to be able to use the latest versions of Office to read them.

          The problem with Quicken is MS’s fault as MS has changed the instructional code set required to access key aspects of the OS and transfer commands to the peripherals and internal components.

          A well written OS means people can write software that’s compatible with the OS and those same commands will work with the next version of the OS – a printer command should always be the same in every version of the OS, but not in Windows or other MS applications.

        • #2518298

          rickk, do you really believe

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Great Answer!

          that the very next OS upgrade should not run large amounts of programs from the previous version?
          If it is built around the previous version, it should be able to run all of the programs properly.
          The difference would mostly be when a new OS is re-written completely, like win9x platform to WinNT platform. Or from 32-bit to 64 bit OS. If the security model changes, they should offer help to SW manufacturers who already pay them to be certified, to make the changes needed before the OS is released.

          As for this comment
          “Throw away all your MS software and MS supported software and go 100% open source.”

          Why not? It can be done! It will not be an overnight thing, because most people are not interested in change. But, even if I can help people realize there is an alternative by using Linux instead, others that respect me will listen.
          In the last 2 weeks, I have given out 2 Linux cd’s to normal Win users (live cd’s). 1 person has not tried it yet, the other said they were going to install it and use it on a machine that they were going to scrap. That person tried the live cd and decided it was worth looking into moving to (PCLinuxOS ’07 beta).

          But then again, people seek me for advice because they know and respect my opinion, something that you obviously know nothing about. Almost all of your posts are crap, and your attitude is shameful for an IT pro (if you actually are).

          Just because you are a MS fanboy, probably because you have 2 or 3 stocks in MS, is no reason to mislead people into being fools with bad advice.

        • #2522099

          if it was that easy, what would you complain about?

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to Great Answer!

          Apath dared to mention FOSS so we’d best take that single point to an extreme.

          In the case of this comment; your a troll

        • #2540964

          Wrong Post — Edited

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Great Answer!

          Edited due to wrong posting

        • #2521441

          Get a copy of WINE to run your games

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Linux Vs Vista

          it’s available from http://www.winehq.com this works like a Windows emulator.

          Scouring the net for drivers would assume that people are writing drivers for Vista, I’m not sure many are doing that yet.

        • #2525330

          there are plenty of driver for vista

          by so.cal guy ·

          In reply to Get a copy of WINE to run your games

          there are plenty of driver for vista

          i tried wine and i don’t care what any one says you get a perfomace hot explsley with games and wine is an emulator not works like

          and emulators suck

        • #2518694

          Very interesting, none for the peripherals I have

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          I checked the manufacturer’s websites, they don’t have Vista drivers for my gear, to go to Vista means a new printer, and new scanner, new accounting software, new version of MS Office, and then I also lose a lot of my old files as Office 2007 doesn’t open all the older MS Doc formats.

          Why should I have to replace perfectly good hardware and software just to use Vista. no thanks, it’s too costly.

        • #2518486

          Deadly Ernest Spreading More FUD

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          1) Please list and be specific your periphals. I’m interested in why NONE of them have Vista drivers.

          2) Office 2007 most certainly can open old file formats. There are already converters out for that.

          3) Why does upgrading to Vista force you to upgrade to Office 2007?

          FUD, more FUD, and damn lies.

        • #2518451

          Rickk == FOS

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          Hey, have you tried Off03 on Vista???
          Then shut the F up!
          I have and it errored often, on not 1 but 3 systems. It was not until upgrading to Off07 when they would actually work as supposed to.
          So, maybe you should try it before saying anything. Just because MS says it works does not actually mean it does, or havent you learned that yet? If not, Why not???

        • #2518419

          Converters?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          Your stunning argument is that Office 2007 is compatible with older file formats because of “converters” . . . ?

          You’ve got to be joking. Really. That’s just . . .

          Man. I don’t even know what that is. Pathetic, I guess.

        • #2518406

          Re: w2ktechman

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          Yes, actually I have.

          I got Office 2003 up and running on Vista beta without any problems.

          Yes, you’re right, I don’t use Vista just yet. One, I’m happy with XP at home and two, we haven’t tested Vista at work with our ERP software just yet.

        • #2518404

          Re: Apotheon

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          Ok, so you’re a huge anti-bloat fanboy.

          Tell me this. How exactly is any office suite ever going to support previous file formats dating back years and years without adding bloat to the suite?

          Periodically, file format changes become a necessity whether you agree with that or not.

          With Office 2007, yes there are converters in order to work through a transition period where older versions of Office will coexist.

          There are reasons why the world isn’t using the same file formats that we used 10 years ago. And there are reasons we won’t be using the same file formats 10 years from now.

          But, along your line of thinking, all software should either A) never change file formats or B) be bloated to hell and back so that they can support all formats dating back to the beginning of time.

        • #2518389

          Umm, Rickk

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          [i]Office 2007 most certainly can open old file formats. There are already converters out for that.[/i]

          Why would I want my office suite to open old file formats using internal bloat [bcksp][bcksp][bcksp][bcksp][bcksp][bcksp]converters instead of external converters? Gee, I don’t know…

          [i]How exactly is any office suite ever going to support previous file formats dating back years and years without adding bloat to the suite?[/i]

          Don’t change the file format between versions. WordPerfect has managed to do that for two decades and is a better, far more flexible app than M$ w0rd will ever be. IMO, and yes, I already know yours is different.

        • #2518383

          So Rickk, didnt I say “USE” Office?

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          Office 03 installs fine, if you open Word and type a few characters, it appears to work fine.
          Outlook sets up fine.
          USING either program for a little while will crash it or hang it.
          all problems solved when migrated to 07.

        • #2518377

          a couple of quick answers

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          1. NickNielsen already covered the question of how to avoid bloat for supporting older documents — don’t change the file format every two or three years just to force upgrades. File formats do need to change now and then, but not the way Microsoft changes its formats. Besides that, something as critical as document backward compatibility isn’t exactly “bloat”.

          2. You say “[i]But, along your line of thinking, all software should either A) never change file formats or B) be bloated to hell and back so that they can support all formats dating back to the beginning of time.[/i]” You seem to have missed the fact that there are a number of office suites out there with a tiny fraction the installed size of MS Office that not only support fifteen years or so of legacy file formats, but actually support fifteen years or so of Microsoft Office file formats — well beyond what MS Office itself supports.

          edit: In any case, I just find it astounding that you try to say that MS Office supports older file formats by pointing out the existence of external converters. Como se huh? That’s like saying you have a .22 LR rifle that’ll take .308 Winchester rounds, as long as you use a separate rifle, or (for a more accurate analogy) mill the bullets down to about a .22 inch diameter and seat them in a .22 LR shell casing yourself.

        • #2518361

          see other post to your comments at post titled

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          OK here’s an incomplete list and some other comments

        • #2522101

          It might be nice if people would take a moment

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          And recall that not all of us are in the US. As such, hardware may be dramatically different but still need to work, regardless.

          While I understand that we are more and more a global society, it is critical to recall that we are different people.

          When we signed up to this board, it was with the knowledge that we would be exposed to people of different culture and language. To expect everyone here to be US born and bred is fallacy in the extreme.

          I just begin by assuming that everyone who chimes in on a discussion has a truth to tell. For those who have only flames, I am saddened and disappointed. I thought better of you only to have you prove to me that valuing your opinion is a waste of my time.

          Not everyone you disagree with is an idiot, Rickk. If you would just can the rhetoric, I believe you would discover as much.

          I took the time to try to understand where you were coming from. Perhaps you could learn to extend that courtesy to others.

        • #2522096

          my VMware emulator is pretty damn good

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          But it’s a thin layer emulating the hardware only. WINE can be a little laggy though and there are other emulators that really take a performance hit. My WINE based Google Earth runs fine.

          Now, I may have recommended Cedega for gaming but WINE should do well also depending on the resource demand of the game.

          And just to keep the Windows fanatics ryled up; Longbow2 written for win95 runs flakey on winXP even with 95 or 98 “compatability”. I’ve also got a friend asking me to see if I can get his own win95 game running under XP though I think they will be putting a win98 box together for it.

        • #2522094

          Hey Samurai

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          Is DOSBox an option? I have used it successfully to work with older software.

        • #2522084

          Tigger, unfortunately not. Rikk, I got a bit in here for you too big guy ;)

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          Janes Longbow 1 was a dos flight sim (technical chopper to be specific) and would probably have a chance with DOS compatability or the option to boot to a dos environment (Is that still there, I used it last with winNT).

          Janes Longbow 2 (still not replacable by any other chopper flight sim option that I’ve found) is pure GUI so I think a Dos box would be of little help since it’s looking for the win95 graphic environment.

          The othe game I’m going to have a go at getting to run is an old win95 Animaniacs game which is also a graphic environment.

          Incase I’m mistaken though, is the DosBox option just a windows dos environment or is this something different that I may not have yet stumbled across?

          Your comment to Rikk was well spoken. I suspect he started with the good intentions of pointing out true FUD against Windows when posted but if that was the starting point, he’s digressed into the very troll he claims to have been responding too. I thought I simply taking things too personally when he lost credability in my view; I’m glad to know I’m not just being overly sensative.

          And now for something completely different… (a man with three buttocks)

          Rikk; don’t get me wrong, I keep saying you post some great comments and that includes the “what’s your network” discussion you started. As you say though “I call it like I see it” to which I still prepose that how “I see it” (er.. you see it) has been skewed by your own bigotry and personal mission to make life misserable for anyone who mentions anything FOSS without end notes, explicit references points and detailed statistical analysis including all calculating formula.

          Now I’m still going to take each of your comments indavidually in an effort to not let my opinion of a seporate comment currupt the potential value of a current comment. Hostile comments, however, will be treated with the respect they show and are due as a result. You get what you give and I hope it’s a load of great information where you give and verbal “curby” where you detract.

          I hope Ubuntu continues to treat you well and I hope one day you get off your high horse and pull the MS pole of rage out of your @ss. You’ll find that some of us heretics are actually very intelligent people with much information to offer and a much more open view of software than you give credit for.

        • #2521901

          Re: TiggerTwo

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          Thanks for the politically correct BS speech.

          Who expects us all to be from the US? Not me.

          And who said I believe anyone that disagrees with me is an idiot? Thanks for speaking for me and putting words in my mouth.

          It’s not just me spreading rhetoric. I will never extend courtesy to anyone who relentlessly attacks MS for no purpose other than for sport.

          Lastly, the amount of mindless lemming like behavior on TR is mind numbing. Open source has become (for some) a cause and NOT a technical debate.

          It’s to those that I primarily target my comments to.

        • #2540981

          Rickk, you contradict yourself by your own actions

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          [i]It’s not just me spreading rhetoric. I will never extend courtesy to anyone who relentlessly attacks MS for no purpose other than for sport.[/i]

          The problem (and apparently you don’t see it) is that you attack the poster of [i]any[/i] negative comments about Microsoft products, accusing them of being FOSS propagandists and open source stooges, regardless of the veracity of their comments.

          It’s almost as if you believe opinions different from yours affect your manhood. It ain’t personal, dude, but you sure seem to be making it that way.

        • #2540958

          Rickk, there are people who bag MS because MS pushed them into it

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to there are plenty of driver for vista

          In Windows XP I can’t use the driver that comes with my modem as it isn’t digitally signed by MS. I loaded it and it worked, but the next time I rebooted the system Windows declared the driver to be faulty and replaced it with a generic one from their library that didn’t work. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the driver I installed except it wasn’t approved by MS and didn’t have their digital signature, it was different as it was for the Australian phone network not the USA one.

          To get over this problem I had to get a new driver from Hayes and turn off some settings to get it to work with the Australian network.

          When WGA kept crashing my machine because I didn’t have ALL the updates and was over 4 weeks since I last did an update (did it on four different systems four times) I switched three systems to Linux (selling the legal copies of XP Pro I’d bought from MS Australia) and kept one machine with XP without SP2, so no WGA.

          Edited to add: I have a slow rural dial up service and auto updates chews up the whole bandwidth so I only selected updates that I felt I had to have.

          I buy software and it works I don’t expect the supplier to give me an update that crashes the system – when they gloat about it, then they can expect to lose a customer and that’s what MS did.

          At that point I’d already sold on my copy of Office 2003 as it wouldn’t open my old Word 6 and Word 2a files or my Excel 4 files – all retained for legal reasons.

          Despite what MS say, it is legal here to sell software on as long as you delete it from your system before doing so and hand over the licence number with the discs.

          Another good thing about Linux over MS, I can install a new program or driver WITHOUT having to reboot the whole system.

        • #2525492

          An Exception

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Linux Vs Vista

          If you have XP but are replacing your PC, go the Vista route.

          The OEM will be installing hardware/software that has been tested and will work with Vista. So there shouldn’t be any problems there unless you are installing older hardware/software on the new PC.

        • #2518625
          Avatar photo

          This is just for those that failed Hardware 101

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to An Exception

          http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/tech-news/?p=462&tag=nl.e019

          I’ll not mention any names as the person concerned knows who he is. :^0 😀 :^0 😀 :^0 😀

          Col

        • #2522105

          I gotta ask

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to Linux Vs Vista


          i got it free

          Free as in paid with it in the cost of a new machine, free as in given too you form work to learn or free as in “uh.. it turned up ;)” purely curiousity though so don’t fee like your in a fight.

          I’m with you on the last bit definately; Vista will be better after SP1 when full driver and third party software support mature.

        • #2515746

          Someone’s a bit resentful…

          by tufop ·

          In reply to Someone’s a bit resentful…

          Couldn’t have said it better myself. I was at the same event but had to leave about an hour before it ended and never got the copy of Vista I went for. I guess you got to play by the rules. I can’t go into a Toyota showroom and say give me a brand new 2002 whatever.

        • #2514962

          I suggest you try looking at Linux again

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Someone’s a bit resentful…

          Over the last 12 months, I’ve tried a lot of Linux packages, and in SimplyMEPIS the only command line function I’ve used in the last f our months is to run a PING command, and you have to do that in the command line in Windows. I know one of the Linux packages for network management is all GUI and does it from the GUI, so I don’t have to use the command line, but I prefer to do it from the command.

          Most Linux distribution also support a lot of the older hardware, and if they don’t any driver written for earlier versions of the same Linux branch will work, in every case I’ve tried they have.

        • #2517316

          I’m using Linux…but how about everybody else?

          by bart99gt ·

          In reply to I suggest you try looking at Linux again

          I’m actually running Ubuntu as we speak.

          I’m technically savvy enough to use Linux. I’ve gotten fairly comfortable with it so far as basic computer usage is concerned. However, there’s no way I could hand a computer loaded with Linux to most of my family members though, and most of them aren’t technically ignorant by any stretch.

          Linux isn’t ready for prime time yet. Its a heck of a lot better than it was even 2-3 years ago, but there are some important aspects of it that are still way over the head of your average computer user.

        • #2517244

          Just curious

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to I’m using Linux…but how about everybody else?

          What is way over the head of average users?

          I’m curious because the install is cake (Ubuntu installs from CD while your OS is still running) and everything is setup out of the box, including and office suite.

        • #2517237

          I suggest you try SimplyMEPIS or PCOS Linux

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to I’m using Linux…but how about everybody else?

          both have a very Windowsie like look and feel. Ubuntu uses the Gnome desktop by default, while SimplyMEPIS uses the KDE desktop by default. I’ve installed this on a few machines for some very tech illiterate people, and they’ve had no trouble switching over. Just ensure their commonly used programs are easy to find, ie desktop icons if possible – clicking on an icon is all they need to know.

        • #2522097

          Working with non computer savvy users

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to I’m using Linux…but how about everybody else?

          I have had the best luck with Kubuntu but am thinking that PCLinuxOS will be better.

          My end user is a 76 year old who is very bright but a total novice. She was “raised” on Windows.

          Linux may not be altogether ready for the corporation- although there are those that argue compellingly that RHEL is ready- it is a possible alternative for those home users whose functionality requirements are different.

        • #2517402

          when it’s done, it’s done

          by brian.crawford ·

          In reply to Someone’s a bit resentful…

          grow up, no difference than any business, when a products done it’s done. when was the last time you could order/buy a new year 2000 vehicle or a 5year old TV

        • #2517174
          Avatar photo

          Well actually not quite right

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to when it’s done, it’s done

          I continue to day to buy M$ DOS without a problem. Apparently M$ AU is selling about 50 copies per month without any support so actually M$ is still offering DOS as a product that they are selling and their Legal Department is encouraging this practise to continue.

          As for the other Big dead OS that I support from M$ NT4 I’m forced to buy a copy of XP Pro and use the Backward License to install it though to be fair to M$ they did give me a CD & Product Key for NT4 when I pointed out that I needed this product for a specialised application that doesn’t run on anything newer than NT4.

          Provided that I keep buying XP Pro Licenses M$ doesn’t give a dam how many times that I use the NT4 Install CD.

          But I’m wondering what will happen when Vista finally becomes the Norm and what version I’ll be forced to buy to install NT4 then and much more importantly How Much will it cost?

          Col

        • #2532945

          Time for a new specialized application maybe?

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to Well actually not quite right

          nt

        • #2534643
          Avatar photo

          Actually their way round this is

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Time for a new specialized application maybe?

          They charge you for the Laser Sighting equipment that goes on the Plant and all around the work site and then [b]Give You the Software[/b] that enables you to get the earthworks to within 2 cm’s of the design.

          Apparently this is for such a small market that they are no longer interested in supporting the software so maybe when I have the time I could Port it to Linux or something like that.

          Or take the easy way out and just forget to tell M$ about it any more. 😀

          After all this is [b]On Site[/b] without any Internet Access so there are no security risks as it only drives the Laser equipment. The software now is a [b]Give Away[/b] to allow the continued sale of the laser equipment. The problem here is you can not buy what isn’t made. :^0

          But I would just love to be there when some Legal Git for M$ arrives to audit their software, being earthmover’s they are likely to deck the guy then run over him in his car with a Big Excavator or Bulldozer and that’s when they are being nice. If they get upset I’m sure they would want to see what was stronger 2 D10 Cats going in opposite directions or the Legal Git for M$ tied between the two dozer’s. :0

          At one of these places I was asked to look at a computer to repair it and it wasn’t in the Site Office apparently the person who used it got slightly upset with it and parked a 40 ton excavator track on top of the tower. Of course they just said that they threw it out an failed to mention that there was this [b]Bloody Great Big Excavator[/b] currently sitting on top of it. 😀

          Col

        • #2522080

          good old dos

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to Well actually not quite right

          I’ve heard it’s still alive and well in the embedded world also. Embedded Linux, embedded Dos or something developed in house seem to be the norms these days.

          As for my own license; Dos boots in under a second on an AMD 1.9 ghz. Now if only I could think of something remotely useful to do with that perfectly tuned command.com since I’ve yet to rebuild any software on it and can’t route the VMware Server com port to a telnet deamon.

        • #2522095

          Oddly enough

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to when it’s done, it’s done

          I can purchase brand new parts for a 20+ year old vehicle. But then, so can you.

          And I just bought a “Titled as New” 2002 Saturn with warranty. Beautiful car. Has a little pink ribbon on her nose.

        • #2521899

          Titled as New…

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Oddly enough

          But not new.

          You can’t call Saturn and tell them you want a brand new, factory built 2002 Saturn. Not going to happen.

          His point is still valid.

        • #2521842

          I never said it wasn’t

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to Titled as New…

          However I can buy new 20 year old car parts. I dare say that I may be able to purchase new 10 year old computer parts.

          New meaning “never before purchased or used.”

          I think that the key point is that not every end user wants the newest, biggest, baddest, whatever. They want reliability and they want familiar. They want dependability. And they want to know that they can find support when they need it.

          I also think that we techie types think on a different plane than the average end user. We see technology in a different light because we will use it in different ways. We tend to want to explore the length and breadth of new technology to see and understand what we can use it for.

          The beauty of a world that includes a variety of different technologies is that we can custom fit solutions that are truly based on customer need.

        • #2541089

          Question Then

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          Other than to be misleading then, why did you say “”Titled as New” 2002 Saturn”?

          You were either intentionally misleading or your analogy is false.

          BTW, there are still plenty of “brand new parts” out there for free for older versions of Windows. So, once again your analogy is false.

        • #2541080

          Well

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          Brian said that you couldn’t buy new old parts. I say that you can. Either way, flawed analogy or not, the fact is that you CAN indeed purchase new parts that are old.

          Your point to software is equally valid. There is a lot of older technology available, much of it free, for those who would prefer it. As I said above, the beauty of a world that includes a variety of technologies is that we can custom fit solutions that are truly based on customer need.

        • #2541008

          The analogy’s fine.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          It’s obvious rickk is just “playing stupid” because he wants anyone that disagrees with his opinions to be Wrong — thus, he refuses to get your point.

        • #2540961

          I read it as the title of the car

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          was never registered to anyone except the dealer, and it was in all purposes in the new condition. whether or not it was the newest model created is beside the point.

        • #2540923

          W2KTech, you are absolutely correct

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          And the ability to do so is not unusual.

          I just happened to luck into a very sweet deal on my new Saturn. She is a beautiful little car that is no longer produced- 2002 was the last model year for my Saturn.

          I think that I am going to have to send Palmetto a new hard hat. It seems that any response to Rickk is the equivalent of feeding a troll.

          Can we take away his birthday or something?

        • #2540915

          Re: TiggerTwo

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          Apparently, you have a reading comprehension problem or you interpret only what you want to hear.

          He said, “when was the last time you could order/buy a new year 2000 vehicle or a 5year old TV”.

          No where in that did he mention anything about parts. He said a vehicle or a TV. Nothing about parts.

          Yet, you continue to pound away just to prove a point that doesn’t exist.

          Once again, as the crowd roars in hating me, I’m only pointing out the obvious and the truth.

          Go ahead, spin this anyway you want, but you’re still wrong. I imagine you’ll go back to calling me names or accusing me or this, that or the other, but again, he didn’t mention anything about parts.

        • #2540912

          Re: Apotheon

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          No, the analogy is wrong because it is based on a false premise.

          No where were “parts” mentioned.

          Re-read the post.

          But once again, you and your “friends” are taking the journalistic liberty to spin something to suit your needs instead of working with the facts.

        • #2540904

          Re: w2ktechman

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          Oh Dear Lord!

          We’re sinking to all new levels.

          Never registered, blah blah blah.

          You sound like Bill Clinton and “it depends what is is”.

          Ok, so imagine this. HP overstocks a product with Windows 98 on it. They find it in a warehouse 10 years later and you can still buy it.

          Yeah! Just about as ridiculous as your interpretation of her statement in an apparent attempt to bail your friend even when she’s wrong.

        • #2540899

          What he defined

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          Was a commodity.

          Please stop this. You have good points but the ranting does you no credit nor does it allow anyone to see your side.

        • #2540896

          OK Rickk

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          You can beat me up all you wish to. There aren’t many people here who fail to recognise you as the troll you are.

          You are attacking people for no purpose and bringing nothing to the table. You attack anyone and everyone who tries to bring a level of reason to any technology discussion.

          Listen up, sonny. You are in no way, shape, or form a “technology professional”. You are an ass and you obviously wish to continue to be one.

          You go on poking people. I hope you do the same sh*t in real life as it would give me the comfort of knowing that someone will eventually clean your clock.

          You are an embarrassment to the profession.

        • #2540884

          Rickk I believe that

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          you are either really stupid, or just like to hear your keyboard clicking. You seem to think that you are convincing people of something, but instead you are looking more the a$$ than anything else. You have deluded your brain into thinking that you are important or something. That crack pipe has really tweaked you boy!
          Ok, lets look at what I wrote, c’mon scroll up a bit. Ok, I commented merely on how I interpreted Tiggers comment. I did not include anything else. So I sunk to low levels, how exactly? Only in your warped mind young’un.

          I will say however that the HP and 98 thing is in the same arena, although SW changes faster than autos.

        • #2540880

          Tig, you can take him!

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          And I would doubt that anyone gives him credibility at all. So for being beaten up, I think not. See it takes reason to win, and, well, Rickk has none. I think that he just likes to instigate crap honestly, thats why I do not usually reply to his posts, nor read them. But even I get bored sometimes and want to see what humorous items that Rickk posts. After all, circus clowns need attention too! Besides, it gives me a good chuckle to know that Palmetto, well, nuff said.

        • #2540828

          Ok People a few answers togther for Rickk, TT, and others

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          Rickk,

          The difference with Ford and MS is that Ford didn’t try to push the consumers into the Edsel by withdrawing all other models; MS did; and continue to do so in less obvious manners. Ford accepted they did a lemon and fixed it with a new model that WAS better. MS try to hide the lemon under a new paint job and a few extra bells and whistles – the engine still sucks.

          Windows 3.11 got rave reviews by everyone who saw it, so did NT at first.

          TT,

          Trolls don’t have birthdays, they’re created by super compressing garbage until it’s super dense. You’re at a serious disadvantage in this argument, he’s dragging you down to his level of idocy so he can beat you due to his higher experience.

          BTW In the mid 1970s I worked for a company that finally got around to clearing out its old warehouse. In the back of the building we found over 3,000 spares parts that were brand new, still in their original wrappings for cars from 1925 through to 1936 – brand new parts for old cars. Must have been some sort of record at the time. Most of the cars they fitted were no longer on the road anywhere. Near as we can figure they must locked the back rooms up prior to WW2 and later forgot about them when other things were stacked in front of the doors.

          General
          My biggest concern with Windows for years has been their refusal to clean up the kernel and close the back doors that are utilised by the trojan and virus programs. despite that, I still supported them until about a year ago when they forced WGA down our throats and started screwing over machines on a regular basis because it’s faulty and they won’t fix it properly.

          About seven years ago they put forward a concept for their future of computing which got heavily bagged as being to draconian, now they’re introducing it bit by bit. They want to set up the Internet so every message you send is checked through their clearing house to ensure all your software is registered and they get a slice from everyone’s pie. Look up the past discussions on Secure Computing and Palladium.

        • #2524220
          Avatar photo

          Or just to throw a spanner in the works

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          About 25 years ago now one army base was closed down and as they where clearing it out they found 300 Pre WW11 BSA M20 Motorcycles still in their original packing crates unassembled and still wrapped in Grease Proof paper.

          These Pre WW11 Motor Cycles when registered had to be registered as New as they had never previously been registered and to make matters worse because of the age of them they where considered as Classic Motor Cycles and attracted a greater Tax component than what a new off the floor modern Motor Cycle would ever attract. I bought 5 of these when they came up for auction and when I moved north I had to sell them off 2 where out of their crates assembled and running as show Bikes while the other 3 where still unpacked and remained unassembled.

          From a Legal Prospective these 1930 something Motor Cycles when first registered where considered as [b]NEW[/b] and there is no other way to consider them. Of the 3 that I sold unassembled and still in their original crates they where sold as [b]New[/b] and no one would accept that they where anything but that New Old Stock that had never been pulled out of their packing crates.

          The ex army M20’s looked great beside my much older restored M21 and sidecar. Now I stick to fast fun to ride Motor Cycles and while I would willing buy a 1950 something Vincent HRD Black Shadow if I could ever find one it’s the only current Pre Classic that I would now be interested in looking at.

          Col

        • #2524128

          :)

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          Pretty funny how everyone has to come up with the most extreme examples to support TT’s point of view but no one can come up with a normal, everyday example.

        • #2524039
          Avatar photo

          Sorry but when you are into Classic Vehicles

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          Things like that are what dreams are made of and they still do exist in some small numbers in very limited numbers today finding them is the hard part and as I don’t owe anyone anything I have money to spend on what I want to instead of living from day to day worrying if I’ll have enough food to feed the children this week or if the bank will walk in and repossess the house. This is what I see all the time with friends and members of my family and today that is something to worry about.

          On the other hand I’m willing to go out and blow a cool .5 Million on a wreck of a car if it’s something that I want and then a few million more to restore. But Honestly I draw the line at buying a new Cylinder Head and start to build a classic Mercedes from that. But for only 6K for a 1950 Gull Wing Mercedes it was tempting at the time but not even I could justify starting a new build with just a cylinder head even if it was new.

          Col

        • #2523971

          re: “extreme examples”

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          What — that thing about the parts in their original packaging found in some storerooms? I took that as an amusing anecdote related by someone who has other things to do than spend all his time refuting your absurdities. I certainly didn’t imagine it was part of this Vast Linux-Wing Conspiracy To Disagree With The All-Powerful Rickk you keep talking about.

          (edit: This is in response to rickk, by the way.)

        • #2524896

          Apotheon, it’s a true story that was meant to point out

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to I never said it wasn’t

          the fact you can still get things that are still ‘brand new’ despite having left the factory many years ago. Until they’re sold retail or used they’re ‘brand new’ and will continue to stay that way.

          It’s part of a sub-thread discussion that’s well off the track by now.

    • #2537317

      Not just Microsoft

      by nicknielsen ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      One or two of my former students work in the local office store. They were directed to pull all Windows XP off the shelf for return the evening before the Vista release date.

      TechExec2 provided some links. You might also check around at local computer stores (not the chains). They may still have some XP available.

    • #2537252

      Hey, I wonder if them not making XP available

      by deadly ernest ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      means it’s now legal to use pirate copies as you can’t be taking away any sales since they aren’t willing to sell any more XP anyway.

      MS=SB

    • #2537533

      No different from other products.

      by charliespencer ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Try to find a 2006 car. Try buying “last season’s” clothes after the new lines are stocked. My wife hated it when a restaurant changed the recipe of her favorite entree. There’s nothing new about this.

      • #2537452

        not my recollection

        by deiceray ·

        In reply to No different from other products.

        As I recall, when WinXP came out you could still buy ME, 2000, even Windows 3.1 in stores and online. No, I believe this is a sea change at MS, taking hold of the enormous monopulative powers they have and abuse and will continue to get more controlling and exclusive and insistent until we all move over to an open system and leave them in the dust. Linux, anyone?

      • #2516036

        Not the same

        by techrep.2.send-me-no-spam@ ·

        In reply to No different from other products.

        If you can’t find a 2006 car, it’s because they’ve all been sold; the manufacturers certainly did not require all the dealerships to return all unsold 2006 cars as soon as the 2007 rolled out! I always buy last season’s clothes from clearance racks, but prefer the styles from the late 40’s (buy vintage patterns from ebay).

        But who cares if M$ wants to shoot themselves in the foot. The biggest difference in Vista & XP, besides compatibility problems, is stronger copyright control & more control over activation processes. Then they slapped on a new coat of paint and some extra chrome to bait people into their trap. That just means there will be a greater availability of pirated copies of XP Pro Corp for those who care to look & Linux is looking better every day.

        So what if you don’t get those regular patches – most of the patches open up more holes than they fixed. Just get a good firewall (or 2) and learn to use some of the advanced blocking features. And as for support, how much support have any of you every gotten from M$? If you can ever get anyone who knows a bean from a butthole, they’ll refer you back to the manufacture of your computer or the store where you bought it. The first time I hosed the activation on my legal XP installation (I changed something that caused it to prompt for reactivation – immediately – not 30 days or even 7 days grace)on a Friday afternoon and the 800 # for M$ activation gave me a recording that they were closed & to call back during regular business hours on Monday morning – I was done with M$ controlling my personal possessions!

        Leave the butterfly in it’s cocoon & let’s all give a warm welcome to the penguin!

        • #2516000

          UBUNTU

          by mavmin2 ·

          In reply to Not the same

          That is why I am planning on using Ubuntu for machines that are too old for XP or VISTA. My church was given a lot of PCs for our school and MS did give us a W2K disk for them. However, I have far more machines than I need and people continue to give them to me but I cannot legally use the W2K disk so it looks like Ubuntu is my best recourse so I can give these PCs to families that can’t afford a PC but need to gain some experience or their kids need to do schoolwork.

          I desperately need a XP disk by Saturday and it is ticking me off that they are not available.

        • #2515865

          XP

          by mavmin2 ·

          In reply to UBUNTU

          I just returned from Frys that still had some copies on the self. There were three upgrades and I bought two. They had about a dozen of the full version. One of my friends said that if you ask the clerks they may have the XP in the back and will sell it to you.

        • #2514964

          Ubuntu runs Gnome as default, SimplyMEPIS is as good but

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to UBUNTU

          runs KDE as default, it also has some easier access to the more commonly used administrator functions. Security wise, it’s slightly better as it asks you set set up a different password for the root access during the install.

          SimplyMEPIS even uses the Ubuntu repositories for many of the package updates.

          edited to add.

          The KDE interface is more Windows style than the Gnome and I find people used to Windows can migrate to KDE relatively easily, but sometimes have trouble with moving to Gnome.

        • #2517054

          SimplyMEPIS

          by mavmin2 ·

          In reply to Ubuntu runs Gnome as default, SimplyMEPIS is as good but

          Thanks for the tip. I’ll look into this further.

        • #2516833

          Hey Mav

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to SimplyMEPIS

          Also have a look at PC Linux OS for people who are accustomed to Windows look and feel and are not technical.

          SimplyMEPIS is also a good one. There are many more based on what you want to do.

      • #2516849

        Differnce is- Vista is SO Misrepresented by Microsoft

        by danglingwrangler9 ·

        In reply to No different from other products.

        First, I am independently employed in the IT industry as a consultant from 14 years experience all the way to CIO, before striking out on my own, (due to layoff like most others). I would request repliers clarify your vested interest in Microsoft or others, so everyone knows where everyone is coming in this discussion, without naming company names.
        Lets take the blinders off and let the frank discussion ensue about Microsoft “Vista” – it “requires” a brand new machine almost as the cheap dells and all the other cheap (under $700.00) boxes store bought just won’t take a Vista upgrade! It take a minimum 1GB of memory just to run Vista adequately, another Direct9x Video card (under $150.00) shares 256 MB more of memory. You spend more than $200.00 on Direct 9x video card and the memory usually comes on-board (so there is no addt’l share requirement), in most cases.

        Now this is before your machine is running “ANYTHING” else. Adobe Photoshop or Intuit Quickbooks Premier would boost the computer requirements at least another 256 – 500 MB of memory.

        So lets review so far the expense of upgrading the insecure Vista OS just to see brilliant image rendering when you open your text based email (for security reasons) – Basic Vista Home Edition with “Aero Glass image rendering $299.00, Direct 9x video card required to run Vista 9x with Aero Glass $200.00, most likely memory upgrade of at least 1 GB (if older Bios is capable) $99.00. So you will spend most likely $500- $600.00 for Vista upgrade.
        Is there any wonder there is an underground software industry? The middle class is being squeezed right out of this consumer category, just like the numerous other ones where the middle-class just has to go home empty handed.

        Do you think Microsoft is in cahoots with any any kind of conspiracy with all the Computer Manufacturers it partners with to force people to buy new computers vs spend in the neighborhood of $500- $600.00 to upgrade an old computer to run the the basic stripped down version of Vista????????

        Are we seeing the beginning of a class structure – the middle class that no longer will be able to afford to have a new computer or at least wisely justify that kind of expense just to enrich the billionaires Bill and Michael and keep their bank accounts flush????

        It is my opinion that the answer is YES to the above questions and the IT techs that stand up to this sort of malarkey get out-sourced off-shore.

        Maybe it is time to unionize. They can not take all the jobs off-shore… and to think that this situation will change or that Bill and Michael are NOT sitting around thinking how they can accelerate this scenario to prevent this very thing in the IT community – unionization I frankly am surprised if hasn’t started already – unionization in IT. It really is heading toward critical mass fellas….and gals. Anyone got another scenario ??????????

        • #2516784

          No to unions, but yes to boycotts and lobbying congress to kill off H1-Bs’

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to Differnce is- Vista is SO Misrepresented by Microsoft

          Unions won’t do much for the IT industry, but annoying the crap out of congress to put a plug on this out of hand H1-B fiasco will. Bill Gates just made a bullshiit speach to congress regarding a so called “shortage” of skilled IT workers here in the USA and asked to expand the H1-B program. Perhaps if this greedy pig paid decent wages us Americans can live on instead of outsourcing to 3rd world crapholes where they pay pennies on the dollar to people who can’t even speak proper English, there wouldn’t be a so called “shortage”.

          Screw Bill Gates! He calls himself a “philanphropist”, yet he is quick to sellout the USA to some 3rd world craphole. Perhaps he forgot thjat is was the USA and people like us that made him a billionaire and not India or China.

        • #2516749

          I’m an independent, I don’t sell anything but labour

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Differnce is- Vista is SO Misrepresented by Microsoft

          and this will cost me clients as I’ve already told them I won’t work on a Vista machine. Some are smart enough to wonder why and looking at other options, others just ignore me thinking they can talk me into it later.

        • #2516726
          Avatar photo

          But it will probably be safe to work on Vista

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I’m an independent, I don’t sell anything but labour

          In about 2 years time but only on the Original Version and not the SP included version which will take another 2 years to fully test. 😀

          Then when that is ready for you to start working on it there will be a New Windows about to be released again. Some how I think that M$ actions on this one will be the start of people looking for some form of substitute as they are by now sick & tired of the M$ Drug Dependency and will start looking for something that doesn’t treat them all like criminals and actually works. :^0

          Col

    • #2536041

      Down here we still have people with some stocks for sale

      by deadly ernest ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Some on-line stores here in Australia still have stocks of other Windows available, while stocks last. They include retail, OEM, full packs and upgrade packs, also Academic upgrades. The versions include

      Win XP Pro
      Win XP Pro 64 bit edition
      Win Server 2003
      Win ME
      Win 98 SE

      The few I’ve contacted say it’s only while they still have stocks as they can’t get any more from MS, MS are only selling Vista now.

      edit to add

      They also have some copies of Office 2003 and Office XP available on the same conditions. MS now sell only Office Vista to them.

      • #2535633

        DE I thought that you dropped TR

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to Down here we still have people with some stocks for sale

        I guess we have been looking at different areas of the site…

        Anyway, yes, they can still be found. Also, last year I went online (ebay) just to check, and found several copies of Win 95 as well. they are available but, not easily available or available from the most trusted places.

        looking back, I should have picked up a dozen copies of XP a few months ago…..

        • #2535578

          No, not left. Just been a bit inactive due to health and

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to DE I thought that you dropped TR

          other issues. I was out for a while with health issues, and slow in returning from that, when I had some major hardware issues. Fixed that and took time to try out several other Linux distributions before rebuilding with SimplyMEPIS and reloading everything.

          That delayed my full recover a bit, then copped some compulsory govt training. Now I have to catch up on several week housekeeping and cleaning.

          If you love the XP look and can’t get it, PC Linux is worth looking at.

        • #2516025

          DE ……….

          by gadgetgirl ·

          In reply to No, not left. Just been a bit inactive due to health and

          Are you ok now?

          All back healthy?

          GG

        • #2515979

          Hi there GG girl, not really, but improving.

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to DE ……….

          My health is improving again, but I’ll never be 100% again. The condition I’m in at the moment is very touchy, at this point in time it’s more a case on long term exhaustion than anything else. The cancer is in a wait and see what happens basis as they couldn’t cut it all out, too close to the spinal column and brain. The memory problem I had following the operation is getting better now. I stopped forgetting what i went to the fridge for, now I can remember what I’m after for the whole trip of several metres. There are still times when I forget what I went into town for, that’s a 60 km trip, so I’ve got more time to forget. But that’s life, and the alternative is something I’m not sure I’m ready for yet.

          I’m glad to see that someone other than my bank manager is concerned about my health, especially as he’s more concerned about me reducing my overdraft.

        • #2515794

          RE: your health as of your 3/08/07 post–some thoughts

          by david_springer_56 ·

          In reply to Hi there GG girl, not really, but improving.

          you might consider yourself in a position to try something IN ADDITION to whatever you’re already doing–somethine which might prove helpful and can ‘do no harm’. google: Royal Raymond Rife. here are a few of the sites i found ‘interesting’, in no particular order:
          http://www.rife.org
          http://www.rife.org/rifecdorder.html
          http://www.royalrife.com http://www.rifelabs.com
          http://www.truerife.com http://www.rife.de
          www,geocities.com/fifetube
          http://www.home.earthlink.net/~vibranthealth/
          http://www.home.earthlink.net/~vibranthealth/Misc/RifeResearch.htm
          http://www.home.earthlink.net/~vibranthealth/Misc/RelatedSites.htm
          http://www.energywellness.co.nz/index.htm
          http://www.noriftrife.com

          check the spelling if any of these don’t connect. mine’s terrible. there are dozens if not MANY more out there. researcher/buyer BEWARE. self education is a MUST.
          Frank Zappa once said something to the effect of: ‘go to the library and educate yourself if you have the guts!’ that was before the internet got huge.
          may this find you doing well. dave

    • #2536025

      License Servers

      by thechas ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      I wonder what is going to happen in a few years when MS drops support for XP.

      Will they shut down the license servers on the same day?

      What is going to happen 5 or 10 years down the road if you need to install XP clean on a system and the MS license server is no longer there to allow you to activate your legal copy?

      Just food for thought.

      Chas

      • #2536013

        That is why I’m getting out now

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to License Servers

        That is why I’m getting out now. I’m never going to upgrade to Vista, will continue to use XP, will eventually will stop using XP and use Linux and Macintosh instead.

        This nonsense from Microsoft is unacceptable to me.

        If I do have Windows around, it will be for limited purposes only. It will be the “alien” system in the shop and will be watched like a hawk! :^0

      • #2535644

        Unfortunately

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to License Servers

        by 10 years from now, XP will probably have little HW support, and SW support should be scant at best.
        But, by this time, most people would have upgraded their systems to newer systems anyway. Just before the deadline for XP support, I plan on rebuilding my system anyway if I am still using it. But I dont think that I still have any 10 yr. old systems anymore.

        Additionally, with the way Linux has made strides over the past few years (in ’99 it was hard to use), it should be a good viable solution for many home users within the next 10 years.

      • #2535575

        Two options: Deal with it or use a cracking application

        by why me worry? ·

        In reply to License Servers

        I really don’t know what else to say, even though I don’t condone piracy or cracking mechanisms in software to thwart piracy, but what if you indeed have a legit copy and MS decided to shut down their XP activation servers?

      • #2515980

        Why?

        by bart99gt ·

        In reply to License Servers

        Why would you need to install XP in 5 or 10 years from now in the first place? In 10 years, XP will be 15(!) years old. It would be like someone trying to install Windows 95/98 (or DOS 6!)on a PC today. Anything that would require XP in that far in the future would probably be on its last legs anyway or it would be nearly impossible to find vital software like anti-virus programs or security patches that are updated on a regular basis.

        I’ve got copies of Windows 98 and 2000 that haven’t seen use in over 5 years now.

        My WAG is that MS would probably just set something up that would allow *any* copy of XP to be activated, regardless of source, after official support comes to an end. As I stated in another reply, software and hardware companies are in the business of selling NEW products, not supporting legacy ones forever. Basically by doing this, they’d wash their hands of anyone who would get upset because they can’t use their 7 year old PC anymore. Sheesh…this is about as bad as people who used to ask me if their old Tandy 1000s were still useful in the late 90s!!

        • #2515799

          Because you paid for the right to?

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Why?

          While it is true that most folks probably won’t want to install a new version of XP in 5 or 10 years, there will, without a doubt, be a few.

          I am sure that you will be able to find quite a few folks here at TR that know somebody running DOS 3.1 applications on a PC either at home or at work.

          Why should anyone be forced to upgrade their software system if it does exactly what it is supposed to be doing?

          Most of the world moves along a lot slower than software development. A 10 year old printing press is not an antique, it is a printing press. It does work. If I was unfortunate enough to install one that relies on an XP system to operate it and then, 5 years from now have to replace several components of that system, why shouldn’t I be able to? With XP (and probably Vista) if you change too many parts in that PC it will force you to recertify the license. What happens to your otherwise perfectly functioning system when you can’t recertify the OS?

        • #2515783

          My dad still runs MSDOS 6.2 on an old 486SX for his CNC machine

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to Because you paid for the right to?

          And although this is for a specialized PC that controls a CNC router at his furniture manufacturing factory, it still requires an OS that is considered long obsolete by today’s standards. It’s no fault of mine or my dad’s that the CNC machining software, made a company known as Centroid, decided to make it a DOS version and not a Windows version, even though Windows was available at the time. Also, the CNC router was manufactured during the time that 486 machines with 200MB drives and 640K RAM were abound with DOS as the primary OS on them, explaining why the PLC board that controls the CNC machine is an old 16 bit ISA card and not PCI. I recently had to rebuild the PC because the motherboard burned out and I sure am glad I still had a copy of DOS 6.2 floating around in my collection of old disks and was able to buy a new 486SX mainboard for a few bucks from an online PC parts retailer.

        • #2514759

          Happens a lot in industry

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to My dad still runs MSDOS 6.2 on an old 486SX for his CNC machine

          Place I was working at had a tensile frame pulls a piece of steel wire in half, and measures the force required.

          The software was third party, no source
          the PC and XT 286 with DOS . No hard drive and two 5.25 floppies. All the slots were used up so they had a combination video and printer card. The printer side of the card stopped working and the the software was hard coded to make low level calls to it’s graphic hardware and it’s obsolete.
          Buggered, new pc, new software package, new interfacing, ?25k for a video card.

        • #2515789

          At what point were you told that MS cares about older versions?

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Why?

          I have never heard about MS doing anything to help people on older versions of the OS.

          A friend who works for a fairly large multi-national went overseas to get one of the satellite offices “in line” and found that many of the systems that had been bought had pirate versions of Win 98 on them. This isn’t because the company was doing things under the table, it was because the vendor supplied lots (a couple hundred) PCs and neglected to say that the OS was unlicensed.

          My friend contacted MS to set things straight asking to pay for the licenses (NOT asking for software, just paper) to make things legal. MS happily said “Well, we don’t sell 98 anymore so we will charge you for XP licenses for your Win98 machines.”

          Do you really think that MS will proactively provide XP licenses without recertification and, more importantly, without charge after they no longer support the OS?

        • #2516458

          Legacy Systems

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Why?

          I work with a lot of systems that run legacy code. We are still running hardware that predates the IBM PC and DOS!

          We cannot get funding to convert the elaborate custom applications over to run on new operating systems.

          Right now, new applications are being written on XP systems. Some of these will need to be in service at least 20 years from now. Should we need to rebuild a hard drive, or make a duplicate system for increased capacity, we will need to be able to install XP!

          I don’t make the decisions as to what OS to use, I just get to implement and support it.

          Chas

      • #2515749
        Avatar photo

        Ghost Stickers

        by stevenmoulden ·

        In reply to License Servers

        Just pull a new OEM code (never activated of course) from the side of the case since everyone knows that the volume license is the one that’s the original legal one!

        Or just become an auto mechanic…they don’t mind as much when they have to work on the cars…even on newer ones; they get paid whether you drive a 1985 Isuzu or a 2007 Mustang….

    • #2535658

      Beyond the Outrage

      by deiceray ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Thaks for all your comments; a further issue for me is that I frequently help people purchase home systems, or upgrade one, and now all I can tell them is they’re Vista bound and I won’t be going along with them. I’m not buying the upgrade, and I have no desire to ‘adapt’ to it. XP is as far as I’m going. Linux will be my next leap. It just irritates me no end how cavalier MS is towards everyone, while making millions a day off of us.
      Arrg.

      • #2535634

        You are not alone

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to Beyond the Outrage

        I was recently in an online course for Vista training. The general consensus after the course was complete (actually, before the last lesson) was that Vista was not going to be an option and almost half of the students had downloaded and installed a Linux distro to try out.
        That is an ‘awesome’ percentage, especially for people going into trying to learn more about Vista before upgrading.

        Goes to show, MS tightened the screws a bit too much this time round.

      • #2535579

        I know of a few towns where all the techs are saying

        by deadly ernest ·

        In reply to Beyond the Outrage

        No to Vista, if the locals want a cheap Dell etc or anything with Vista, then they can get prepared to ship it back to where they bought it for any technical work. If they build a machine, they’ll put on any software you have (transfer over XP etc when upgrading) or Linux if they don’t have any software. They won’t even load a driver onto a Vista machine for fear the people will claim they busted it.

      • #2537192

        Another sobering thought about hackers

        by deiceray ·

        In reply to Beyond the Outrage

        It just ocurred to me that hackers will keep hacking XP and at some point it will become totally vulnerable because MS will stop supporting it,so it has a limited useful life. I’ll be shocked if they continue to issue frequent patches; more likely they will immediately begin to not care so much about an “old” product like XP, and only issue patches and updates for Vista, or Pista as I am going to call it from now on.

      • #2515045

        Why wait?

        by thumbknuckle ·

        In reply to Beyond the Outrage

        I never upgraded to XP, preferring the slightly less cumbersome aspects of 2000. As soon as I started reading about Vista, I upgraded to Ubuntu. As far as I can tell, it’s robust enough for all but the most computer-challenged. Download the ISO and burn it. You can test drive it without installing a thing.

        • #2515926

          Good Job

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Why wait?

          If more people did that, even just to try, things in the industry might change (such as better driver support and apps for Linux.

      • #2516010

        $get with the program$

        by fncatsailor ·

        In reply to Beyond the Outrage

        Gentlemen, gentlemen please! . . . given your level of professionalism I find it bordering on humorous that you have such short memories. How quickly you seem to forget the mass hysteria surrounding the introduction of XP. Within the pages of most web sites, the gurus and tech writers were all crying about the impending fall of western civilization because of Microsoft?s arrogance and ineptitude.
        Hey, wake up and smell the coffee! It?s called change! Get with the program or get left behind. Vista, weather you like it or not, is here to stay . . . . for a little while anyway, as it too shall pass on too some years down the road of progress and change. So make the $most$ of it from the get go. That?s what IT folks do.

        • #2515997

          Go back to sales and stay out of technology

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to $get with the program$

          because obviously, you lack the technical expertise to make any valid criticisms about Vista. Have you even seen this Fisher Price joke of an O/S called Vista with all the pretty colors, bells, whistles, and practically no functionality? It’s pathetically dumbed down and pointless to use and until MS gets their act together and fixes some major issues in it, it won’t be touching any of my systems.

        • #2515974

          I thought I was the only one!

          by bart99gt ·

          In reply to $get with the program$

          Who remembered the 2000 and XP launches. Scores of message boards of people swearing they’d never switch from 95, 98 or 2000!

          6 months later, those same folks were going on about how XP really wasn’t all that bad. Now its regarded to be probably the best OS MS has ever released.

        • #2515959
          Avatar photo

          OH Bull SHIITE

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I thought I was the only one!

          M$ sold 98SE for at least 18 months after XP was released and 98 consistently outsold XP every month even though support for 98 was ending the next month M$ still sold millions of copies of 98 without the need to actually support it and they didn’t care as the money was still coming in no matter what was bought.

          M$ is doing exactly the same thing now they are still selling both products though trying to force people to buy Vista but if you walk into a Major Supplier for M$ you can still buy a New Volume License for XP Pro so what’s the big deal all about? God even Dell has seen the writing on the wall and is offering XP as an alternative to Vista now.

          Col

        • #2515785

          Yes, I’d like to hear it, HAL. Sing it for me.

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to OH Bull SHIITE

          Come on HAL, tell us what you REALLY think.
          ]:)

          Say, I heard that you were looking for another gov’t contract to support. Can I forward one to you? I hear they are planning an all Vista shop. 😀

          (Edited to explain:
          This isn’t being rude. It’s a 2001 thing. He is HAL, I am Dave… you know… um… Oh YOU explain it, Col!)

        • #2514952
          Avatar photo

          Is that you Dave?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Yes, I’d like to hear it, HAL. Sing it for me.

          How did you get back inside the airlock when you didn’t have a spacesuit? 😀

          Would you like a Game of Chess? :^0

          Col ]:)

        • #2514849

          Thanks Col

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to OH Bull SHIITE

          I almost didnt beleive it, I had to check it myself, but of course the XP machine costs $150 more and doesn’t come with the HDD upgrade.

          Even when I called our Dell rep he was reluctant to agree to give us XP, instead trying to sell us vista. He only stopped when I asked for a new account rep (I didn’t think I asked nicely either, I have a bad habit of yelling at suppliers).

        • #2514751

          “Bad” habit? I believe you are mistaken.

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Thanks Col

          I have always been under the impression that yelling at suppliers was the industry standard way of letting them know that you actually do have an opinion and they should belive it. ]:)

        • #2517099

          That’s because

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to “Bad” habit? I believe you are mistaken.

          they roll all our cash up and stuff it in their ears.
          Fish hooking them and taking it back is even more effective.
          Never found one yet who doesn’t start co-operating when they see the money going back in my pocket. A little ear wax never hurt anyone.

        • #2517255

          I frequently have vendors ignore me

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to “Bad” habit? I believe you are mistaken.

          I always thought it was a “chick thing”.

          I simply politely observe that they have mistakenly shoved their head up their arses and offer reasonable assistance with the problem.

          And call another vendor from the conference room. While they are still there.

          But I am ALWAYS polite. No yelling.

        • #2534145

          T2, I cant imagine anyone ignoring you.

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to “Bad” habit? I believe you are mistaken.

          🙂

          Maybe that’s the problem, you’re too polite. It might help if you yelled at your suppliers little bit.

        • #2515928

          Yes, I remember the launches

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to I thought I was the only one!

          and I also remember that I liked 2k mostly, but I didnt like XP (too childish looking). But most companies and retail stores DID sell older OS’s for several months after the launches. This is because it made sense too. Not many things worked properly in the new OS’s, and many people were not convinced of the move quite yet.
          Many of those people ended up moving over after many things were worked out in XP, like Driver support, and Application support.

          With Vista, many places cannot sell older versions of MS OS’s, and most others are not offering it as an option. It is still available but very discouraged.

        • #2515737

          Most rational folks wait for SP2 at least!

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Yes, I remember the launches

          MS is so quick to throw things out on the market that the first release that they sell is really what we called, back in the old days, BETA (at best). SP1 is really RC1 and SP2 is the first that you should consider to be commercially viable.

          A friend of mine changed some hardware on his XP-SP1 machine and got locked out. It wouldn’t even let him put in a new activation key. He finally worked it out with an MS tech support guy… it was a bug in SP1. Go figure.

        • #2514960

          The majority of end users are morons..just like those who rushed to buy PS3

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to Most rational folks wait for SP2 at least!

          and slept all night outside of Best Buy and other stores. MS is targeting these idiots who needs to have the “latest & greatest” yet know absolutely nothing about the problems with the product they are all mindlessly flocking to buy.

        • #2514949
          Avatar photo

          Or as my desktop calender said some time last year

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to The majority of end users are morons..just like those who rushed to buy PS3

          [b]MICROSOFT = Most Intelligent Customers Realise Our Software Only Fools Teenagers.[/b]

          Sounds about right for the Vista Release after all how many adults where in the ques outside the shops come midnight when Vista went on sale?

          Col

        • #2534138

          damning praise

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to I thought I was the only one!

          [i]6 months later, those same folks were going on about how [b]XP really wasn’t all that bad. [/b] Now its regarded to be probably the best OS MS has ever released.[/i]

          The smallest turd that your neighbor’s cat ever shat on your front doorstep is still no better than a turd, shat by [b]your neighbor’s[/b] cat, on [b]your doorstep[/b].

          When you factor in patches, including [b]”Critical Updates”[/b] — aptly named, given the security breaches the original shipped versions of MS operating systems have all contained since 95 — it’s perfectly fair to say that “the Windows operating system [b]is delivered broken[/b]”.

        • #2534124
          Avatar photo

          Now that’s not even close to being correct Abs!

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to damning praise

          It would be much better to say that M$ is still developing their product line known as Windows & Office and while still in the early Beta Stage will eventually manage to get it to work unless all their Beta Testers Desert them first and go with something that just works and stop paying M$ for the Beta Product and then for the Technical Support to fix the Broken Software. :p

          Col
          [i]Edited[/i] because the MS Keyboard needs new batteries again and refuses to put the letter SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS s up when I want it to Upper case No Problems but Lower Case if works maybe one in 10 attempts. 🙁

        • #2533541

          Is that MS HW or

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Now that’s not even close to being correct Abs!

          just wireless.
          I have an HP wireless keyboard and it refuses to type E or r (upper case E lower case r) without several attempts. I think it is just a wireless issue with them. It also happens randomly on other letters, and it will always delay the n when typing ‘and’ (it will always show as adn) and the h the ‘the’ (shows as teh). I have slowed these words down and paid close attention, and I do type it correctly. Considering it is not a problem on my non-wireless keyboard, I just attributed it to an issue with that wireless keyboard.

        • #2533296
          Avatar photo

          This one is a Microsoft Branded Wireless Keyboard/Mouse

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Is that MS HW or

          It’s was given to me by M$ for being such a nice person and for once not wearing the T Shirt that Reads [i]”In a World without Walls or Fences who needs Windows & Gates”[/i] to a Partners meeting. Or something like that anyway, it’s actually the fourth one that I’ve had because they keep breaking well the first 2 times the mouse was the problem then the Keyboard broke a couple of times so in the last year it’s been replaced 4 times now.

          Actually it’s a pity that Rickk’s not around because I could say that M$ doesn’t have any Vista Drivers for this product which is the current model or for the Fingerprint reader that I have on the NB again another Microsoft Branded product that comes with a M$ Branded driver CD. 😀

          Actually if it did the same thing all the time it wouldn’t be quite so bad but as it’s an interment it drives me crazy. It also adds the wrong letter as I go along and I quite often see adn instead of and or teh instead of the. Things like that which it does itself. Of course when I want to type Teh it spits up the as that is a Surgeons name that I go to and do some work for and the sod insists that if it’s not his name on the invoice he doesn’t need to pay, but when his own computer spits out an invoice with his name spelt wrong and replaced with the instead of Teh he still wants to get paid. :^0

          Col

        • #2533294

          Crap, I have to give credit to M$ here

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Is that MS HW or

          Their ‘Wireless Desktop Elite’ keyboard + mouse has been much more reliable for me than Logitech’s competing set, which I returned because:
          (1) the mouse would not work more than about 30cm from the wireless receiver
          (2) the wireless receiver, although nifty in re-charging the mouse while not in use, was an annoying, clunky monstrosity that I didn’t want on my desk
          (3) Logitech’s forum was full of even worse complaints than I experienced while owning that set for ~1 month.

          That said, I think that Microsoft has a demonstrated track record of using their enormous financial resources to provide products that are [b]just barely[/b] better in performance than their nearest competitor, squishing that competitor, then providing TOTAL CRAP to The Market. I feel guilty for spending [b]any[/b] of my $$ on Microsoft whenever there is a competitor to Microsoft in the same market.

          Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts,

        • #2533292

          I see you had No Trouble capitalizing

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Now that’s not even close to being correct Abs!

          “Broken Software” and I compliment you for the acronym you implied so cleverly. Well done.

      • #2515967
        Avatar photo

        Well this is expected

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Beyond the Outrage

        After all M$ sold 98 and ME together and look what happened to ME. They then continued selling 98 while 2000 Pro was available and no one bought 2000 Pro then they continued to sell 98 while XP was available and for the first 18 months of XP being on the market 98 consistently outsold it even though support for 98 was ending very soon.

        At a Partner Meeting ages ago M$ said that they had learnt a lesson from that experience and wouldn’t be doing it again.

        Though to be fair they are still selling all versions of XP except Media Centre with Upgrade to Vista if you want to shell out for the shipping and the wholesalers have everything except Media Centre well at least the ones that I deal with do so I think XP going to be around for a long time yet.

        Col

        • #2515777

          There is another interesting difference here…

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Well this is expected

          With XP, they could pander to the wishes of the “luddites” that wanted to stay with 98 and sell them copies because if they didn’t sell them, people could just install their own using the same license key over and over.

          This time, the public can’t do that. Once MS decides to shut down the license servers, that will be that.

        • #2515768

          Easy fix for that. The corp and VLK doesn’t need activation

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to There is another interesting difference here…

          and don’t be surprised to see pirated copies leaked out of companies that purchased the VLK pack being circulated around to circumvent the entire activation stupidity when MS decided to pull the plug on XP activation. There are cracks readily available for XP activation and one is already available for Vista, as people are preparing for the worst when MS pull the plug on the XP activation server. I am not endorsing or condoning the act of piracy, but if companies want to stick with XP and roll out more XP workstations, how are they supposed to do this otherwise?

    • #2515185

      Microsoft Monoply Fortune = NO future reliable software

      by danglingwrangler9 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      The IT community REALLY needs to bring this discussion to the consumer before it is too late. The entire ridiculous Vista thing – we all know it. The real list of negatives far exceeds the REAL benefits to the wise consumer.

      Significant public pressure will be the only thing to effect the caviler attitude of Microsoft – if anything will.

      Karl Rove (princess of deception), must have provided Microsoft higher ups a weekend retreat on spin. The Microsoft business model has focused on profit maintenance and almost totally disregarded reliable software for a few years now at least. Many others may argue much longer – the Linux community. My guess is that had something to do with Gates stepping aside from the future daily management of Microsoft, who now will really have to compete like NEVER before against a formidable opponent – GOGGLE !

      Good night … and good luck !
      Borrowing Keith Oberman’s byline

    • #2515072

      I generally agree, especially new computers, but…..

      by lakephillip ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      I was at Staples today in Ukiah, Ca, and they had WinXP home & Pro, both Complete, or Upgrade versions, for sale.
      I was actually thinking about buying one in case they do pull it off the shelf.

    • #2515050

      Microsoft Expect….

      by chaz15 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Microsoft expect all new users/ or if a computer is replaced to use Vista.
      How condescending can Microsoft get? Microsoft is exploiting its near monopoly position, especially outside of the US.
      I can only HOPE computer manufacturers provide XP Pro as long as it is possible for them to do so as a CHOICE. I for one wish to stay with XP as it does all I require AND many programs and Games are only XP compatible. Microsoft DO NOT WISH US TO HAVE THIS CHOICE. This is TERRIBLE CUSTOMER SERVICE (or is this sewervice?!). THE WORST.
      I hope someone very senior at Microsoft, eg Bill Gates READS THIS, SITS UP AND TAKES NOTICE OF CUSTOMER OPINION AND ACTS ON THIS.
      This is the shabbiest advert for Microsoft ever.

      • #2516059

        Vista not selling as expected?

        by randym55 ·

        In reply to Microsoft Expect….

        With all the hype about Vista and everyone not jumping for joy, makes Microsoft very upset and Bill Gates a really mad boy. (a poet and I don’t know it? NOT!) It’s to bad that people spend their money just to be the first kid on the block to have the newest toy. Since there was not as many kids as expected MS is doing what they do best – if you won’t play they are taking their “ball” inside.

        • #2515992

          I’m Microsoft Certified and even I am not promoting Vista

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to Vista not selling as expected?

          Although I am “supposed to” promote new MS products as part of my certification agreement, I will not do a great disservice to my own customers by feeding them the same marketing and hype bullsh*t that MS is doing to promote what I deem as their new Fisher Price operating system with pretty colors, bells, whistles, lights, and absolutely no usefull functionality, other than being a pretty dumbed down toy for the ignorant masses.

        • #2514758

          Same here

          by brokeneagle ·

          In reply to I’m Microsoft Certified and even I am not promoting Vista

          I let my status as a Registered Parter and my Action Pack expire last month.

          My homebuilt computers will be replaced by Macs when they die, if not sooner.

    • #2515039

      XP

      by jonescomputer ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      I have the solution for Microsoft, Let’s start a major campain to get everyone to move to a Linux OS, it’s free and simple to install. If we can get enough people to switch, Little Billy G, will have a problem on his hands.
      Rick Jones

      • #2515037

        Just thought….

        by chaz15 ·

        In reply to XP

        Yep, MS are out on a limb. The only way they can get mass copies of Vista sold, is to FORCE IT on unwilling victims……

        • #2516066

          Which is exactly what they’re doing by making

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Just thought….

          Dell and other companies stop providing XP as an optional operating system. I checked the Dell Australia web site yesterday, only OS available from them is Vista, everything is Vista, no XP, no Linux, just Vista. I spoke to them, I asked if I could get a machine without an OS, yes I can get a blank machine, but it still costs the same as a Vista machine and I get no support at all as they don’t know what OS I’ll be putting on it. yeah right, guess who isn’t supplying my next laptop, I already build my own desktops, but refuse to do that to a lappy.

          NB: checked the HP site, and they’re all Vista only machines as well.

          edited to add.

          They’ll get away with it as over 90% of the people who buy computers don’t know a damn thing and are too stupid to ask anyone if there is anything better than MS (Maximum Shaft).

        • #2515944
          Avatar photo

          DE an update since you posted this

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Which is exactly what they’re doing by making

          Dell is now offering XP with an Upgrade Option to Vista as apparently far too many people have been ringing them up asking for an XP Installed NB and when told that they no longer have them are hanging up in disgust.

          Even the Dell add on the TR Site is offering an XP Alternative right now. Apparently Dell is loosing sales and doesn’t seem to like it. 😀

          Incidentally if you want a decent NB buy a Clevo and then insert your own CPU, HDD RAM and Optical Drive. They are reasonably cheap not in the sub 1k Dell range but when compared to a similar NB from one of the big makers a lot cheaper than something no where near as good you’ll be looking around the 3 K range for a top of the range Clevo + Software where as that same price would only buy you a mid range Dell.

          Col

        • #2514959

          Thanks for that Col, when I checked earlier this week

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to DE an update since you posted this

          they didn’t care about XP, maybe my phone enquiry was one of those that upset them and caused them to change their minds.

        • #2517417

          coupla things in one reply

          by mikemajor3 ·

          In reply to DE an update since you posted this

          1. yeah, I remember the XP and 2000 releases – and I was one of the ones telling everybody to wait. Happily, I was right that time – after SP2, the system got pretty good for most folks.
          2. I’ve done four laptops on dual boot with XP and Ubuntu 6.06 LTS; seems to meet most folks needs. Interesting sidenote that most folks don’t seem to know – ubuntu has a feature that allows re-partitioning of a hard drive (after defrag) without trashing all the contents of the drive… highly overdue, in my opinion.
          3. I went Ubuntu after the fourth time in a month that Microsux demanded I re-register my XP. Only time I miss it, is when some of my friends send me .wmv’s in my email.
          4. Read an article about two years ago, that basically stated that the only thing that could release Microsux’s “stranglehold” on the industry, was them… looks to me like they’re in the process of that. I do some consulting work on the side, and in the last three months, have had at least five companies, that I set up with XP, ask me for proposals for sending them totally open-source… none of them want anything to do with Vista’s new licensing/disabling scheme. Wake up, Microsoft; you lose the business sector, the X-Box better start taking more market share than it is.
          5. By popular demand, I’m gonna shut up now
          hagar

    • #2515023

      What’s outrageous is

      by jbaviera ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      The fact that the retailers around here won’t order any more copies of XP once they are off the shelf.

      My daughter just decided to buy a NEW laptop with “Vista”, and I can’t get it to see ANY of my networked PCs. Of course, now she can’t print unless dhe goes out and buys her own printer, or uses “sneakernet” to print her school documents.

    • #2516058

      Thank you Microsoft!

      by dr_zinj ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      You had a good product run.
      MS DOS had a lot to say for it for a beginners OS.
      Started a bit rocky.
      The early versions of Windows were more test beds than commercial OSes.
      Windows 3.1 really started the ball rolling.
      Then got better and better.
      Windows 95 was pretty good.
      Windows 98 was better.
      But then you started getting lazy, and the old fat dumb and happily rich syndrome got to you.
      Windows 2000 was one of your best, yet still way overweight.
      Windows XP wasn’t any better, and tipped the scales to being morbidly obese.
      Vista has finally done it; I am recoiling with revulsion from the massive, bloated alien creature it has become. You have finally lost any former goodwill with your mean-spirited, accusatory, uncaring behavior.
      So to hell with your stupid little butterfly, Dr_Zinj, et. al. is going to kiss a penguin instead.
      Viva la Revolution!
      Penguino Uber Alles!

    • #2516051

      Suckers

      by yobtaf ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      You helped make it the world’s most popular OS.

      That’s what you get.

    • #2516041

      shame on you!

      by radioeng ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      How dare you question microsoft!

      don’t you realize by now that only they know what’s best for you, you don’t know anything!

      • #2515994

        Windows 1.02 anyone?

        by glgruver ·

        In reply to shame on you!

        Cleaning out my workspace and found a copy of Windows 1.02 on a 5″ floppy disk. Probably unreadable by now even if I could find a drive for it.

        One of the posts mentioned PC Linux, which I have not tried yet, but plan to. I have been very impressed with Mepis and Linspire. I am building a new PC for a friend and I will probably use one of those 3 Linux distros along with Open Office.

        B.T.W Can anyone suggest a useable Linux Distro for an old P-II laptop? I can almost get Mepis 3.4 to load in it. This is for a Nursing home resident who does not have much money or room, but wants to use her email account.

        • #2515981

          Anyone ever heard of Lindows? It looks like Windows, but it’s Linux

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to Windows 1.02 anyone?

          and last I recall, Microsoft sued them for “copyright infringement” on the grounds that “Lindows” can be mistaken for “Windows”, which if you ask me that not even a retard would confuse the two. MS won the case, but failed in shutting down Lindows, now known as Linspire.

          Anyhow, Lindows is fully capable of running 32 bit Windows applications and is far from looking like the Fisher Price toy that Vista has turned into.

        • #2515904

          Lindows is now Linspire

          by mising69 ·

          In reply to Anyone ever heard of Lindows? It looks like Windows, but it’s Linux

          http://www.linspire.com/
          Unfortunately, MS did win, forcing them to rename to Linspire. Linspire is the OS included in WalMarts sub $300 PCs. It is a very easy to learn OS, but in being easy, it loses some of Linux’s security, by giving a lot of root access to users. It includes good tutorials on getting multimedia and wireless access among other things. Also it costs around $60 for the full version, which includes support, but is still much better than $150 – 400 for Windows. There is a free version called Freespire, which comes minus support and some win32 compatability. For my personal use though, I keep coming back to OpenSuse.

        • #2515873

          But MS didn’t win in shutting down the product as they have done

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to Lindows is now Linspire

          to anyone who threatens their monopolistic existence.

        • #2515968

          Linux for older PCs

          by mising69 ·

          In reply to Windows 1.02 anyone?

          I have had really good luck with Vector Linux ( http://www.vectorlinux.com ) on older machines. I just installed version 3.2 on a mid 90s IMB Thinkpad 750C. GUI is quite responsive considering it only has 32Mb of RAM and an intel 486. Here is a chart listing the versions they offer and what equipment they will run on. http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/vectorlinux/docs/miscellaneous/version_table.html
          Hope this helps…
          Mike

        • #2515912

          Thanks

          by glgruver ·

          In reply to Linux for older PCs

          I will definitely check it out.

          As far as Lindows, I believe it morphed into Linspire with a very good free version called Freespire. Latest version of Linspire comes with support available and costs around $60 USD. As far as I am concerned and from what I have seen of the program, it is well worth the price. If I need a supported LINUX flavor for a client’s home use, this would be a good choice, especially for a windows user.

        • #2514961

          Try Small Linux or PCOSLinux

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Windows 1.02 anyone?

          any of the earlier versions of most major Linux distros, say Mandrake 10 or Redhat, etc.

    • #2516022

      Try ebay

      by maxwell edison ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      You can find anything on ebay.

      • #2515983

        I’d avoid eBay like the plague. You can’t guaranatee it’s authentic

        by why me worry? ·

        In reply to Try ebay

        when buying from eBay. I once bought a piece of software on eBay that was advertised as “Brand new and still shrink-wrapped” and what I got was a burned copy with a Neato printed label on it made to look like the authentic silkscreening on the authentic media.

        Buyer beware!

    • #2516017

      Here ya’ go – Microsoft Windows XP Professional w/SP2

      by maxwell edison ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0242527

      They also have the upgrade or the Home Edition, whatever you want.

    • #2516012

      It’s not just you

      by usbport1 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      I think it’s both Microsoft and the big name PC makers together. They want you buying a new PC every time a new OS comes out. That’s how they stay multi-billion $ companies. Unfortunately we’re the mindless little zombies who unthinkingly plop down our plastic to fill their coffers to the brim. We don’t want keep those big exec’s from having a good multi-million $ bonus to go along with their multi-million $ salaries do we?

      • #2515977

        True. Dell, Gateway, HP, etc all get kickbacks for selling Vista

        by why me worry? ·

        In reply to It’s not just you

        because they really don’t have a choice as Microsft strongarms them into doing so. As one poster previously mentioned, he wanted to buy a Dell laptop without an O/S, but Dell would still charge him the full price as if Vista was preinstalled on the machine. The typical consumer has little say or choice in the matter and I think this will result in stocks of these large PC manufacturers to plummet as sales of new PCs’ and laptops drop. Who will profit are the smaller mom and pop computer stores that will still sell PCs’ and laptops with XP and won’t force Vista upon their customers. I know of such stores and I respect that in them and have established very good relationships with the owners. The next few years we will see more small computer stores sprouting up to take advantage of the consumer’s disgust with companies like Dell, Gateway, and HP.

      • #2539094

        Now I’m convinced that Gates & Co. are OFF THEIR ROCKERS

        by eddie n ·

        In reply to It’s not just you

        Check this out:

        “Microsoft will force PC makers to stop selling machines running XP by the end of this year, despite ongoing compatibility problems and demand for XP from users.

        Demand for XP is particularly strong among small and medium-sized businesses, according to Dell, which announced it will continue offering some machines with XP pre-installed.

        However, the clock is ticking, and Dell and other PC makers will be obliged to stop selling machines running XP by the end of the year, despite ongoing compatibility and performance issues with Windows Vista….”

        Read the whole article here:

        http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20070412/tc_pcworld/130657;_ylt=AvlFANdOIXm4q9HcLroSQfdk24cA

        • #2531018

          Re: off their rockers

          by stanj.miranda9 ·

          In reply to Now I’m convinced that Gates & Co. are OFF THEIR ROCKERS

          They are forcing them to stop installing XP,because of the very slow sales of Vista.Microsoft has gotten to the point that they want to control eveyone,and thats just not right.I bought a brand newcopy of XP Pro the other day,and installed and activated it,only for it to tell me it found new hardware[keyboard] and had to be reactivated.When i tried to reactivate it.It said i none left.This was a builders CD,and had only been used once,so how is it possible to have no activations left? When i called,they suggested I buy Vista.lol When i told them i already had enough of problems,i was cut off.Thats no way to treat a customer.

    • #2515993

      No, it’s not just you.

      by codebubba ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      That’s not a good thing, IMHO. There are many of us out here that are satisfied with XP.

      I also noticed up on Dell.COM that they removed the selection of XP when building a system. I didn’t realize that until a colleage pointed it out.

      I can understand Microsoft not selling any more to the retail channel if they’ve stopped producing it – but to have it all pulled from the shelves? I don’t care for that at all.

      -CB :-/

    • #2515988
      Avatar photo

      Actually not quite true

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      I’ve just had a look at the latest MS Price List and XP is still available but M$ is desperate to get people to move to Vista and even offering refunds to stores to return XP copies so that they can be Replaced with Vista Displays.

      Maybe it’s not selling as well as projected and M$ needs to do something drastic like [b]PANIC.[/b] 😀

    • #2515964

      And MS wonders why they have a priacy problem!!

      by dana.hanson ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      I remember the days of past change from 98 2000 to XP and all the complaining and resistance. Same resistance going on today. In a few months when all you can buy is Vista or pirated copies of XP people will reluctantly change or buy pirated XP. Simple as that. Retail Vendors such as Tiger Direct cannot purchase XP from Microsoft any longer and eventually their stock will run out!

      • #2515934
        Avatar photo

        BULL S

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to And MS wonders why they have a priacy problem!!

        I can still buy M$ DOS and I do from M$ for some computer controlled machinery that is in use and it’s under 5 years old as well. It’s going to be in service for at least the next 15 years so I’m assuming that when I want to give M$ the money that they’ll be willing to take it.

        As for your uneducated comments about XP and 98 M$ was selling 98 for the first 18 months that XP was on the market and over that 18 months 98 consistently outsold XP every month till it was finally discontinued after all support for it has stopped. Even today I can buy copies of 98SE in their shrink wrapped packets with the COA on the outside. The last time that I went to one of the shops selling it they had just sold out as someone had just bought 500 copies from them. Not that I was interested but to see 500 copies of a now defunct OS walk out the door was an interesting exercises.

        Col

        • #2515736

          I wish my friend had known you.

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to BULL S

          The guy I referred to above (or was it below?) that had a couple of hundred PCs that had unlicensed versions of 98 on them. He wanted to buy Win98 licenses for them but MS was only offering XP Home to him.

          Again, you are the magic man!

        • #2514944
          Avatar photo

          I’ll also bet that M$

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I wish my friend had known you.

          Didn’t supply the 1 Install XP Pro VL CD either right?

          Col 😀

    • #2515962

      The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

      by jusovsky ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      I bet you’re too busy being outraged by a lot of things, aren’t you? Another conspiracy theorist… I doubt it was Microsoft that pulled the software. Every store can select what they want to sell. I’m sure Microsoft has no qualms about selling more licenses of XP to any of those vendors should they ask for them.

      “I haven’t looked into Vista at all, as I thought I could continue with XP for a much longer time. What’s next? Are we going to have to upgrade all programs? Does it even support older software?”

      Maybe you should come on out of your cave. These are stupid questions in that you could have easily researched them and found the answer before making your post.

      • #2515924

        chicken little never could type

        by deiceray ·

        In reply to The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

        So I can’t make comments or ask questions I haven’t “researched” yet? An interesting intellectual position to take…
        YES I am outraged by world poverty, by Bush’s invasion of a foriegn nation, by pornography still driving the Internet, by the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, by materialism, by intolerance, by racial bigotry, and “buy” commercial monopolies. Other than that, with people like you and me here, the world is a beautiful place!

        • #2515734

          Isn’t this research?

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to chicken little never could type

          Some of the most informed folks are right here and have already experienced the issues you asked about. Col (HAL9000) has been answering questions about Vista for quite a few months now and has direct lines into MS (even if he doesn’t want to talk about it) 🙂

          I’d say that by asking the question, you have started your research. Plus you are doing it in a place where people can defend or argue the points instead of leaving you to figure out if it is just FUD.

    • #2515957

      Windows XP

      by richarddykstra ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      you can find the upgrade version at Target and Office Depot

    • #2515947

      Such “outrage” would be unthinkable for MacOS

      by paul613 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      MacOS users embrace each upgrade; they can’t imagine why anyone would prefer to use an older version.

    • #2515919

      Hello?

      by jfowler ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Where have you people been??
      I saw this one coming with the release of Windows XP and it’s new “Activation” feature. “The thin end of the wedge” I thought to myself, correctly as it now turns out.
      And as for GUIs and a resemblance to all things “Fischer-Price”, sorry fellas, but XP takes that award hands-down IMHO. Vista is at least pleasing to the eye, if nothing else.

      I was perfectly happy running Windows 2000 Pro SP4. That is, I WAS once I got past the LIES told about compatibility with Via chipset drivers when the OS first emerged.
      I stuck with 2k too (on my main machine) for as long as I could, then one day it dawned on me that XP (which I was running on my secondary ‘back-up’ box) was far more stable than 2k, and more user friendly too as regards the issue of driver installations. With great reluctance (and some revulsion) I then switched over to XP Pro as my main environment. I have no plans to leave it anytime soon either, (and I have plenty of back up media should I ever need it).

      I’m now running Vista Ultimate on my secondary computer, and it’s far less friendly to the user than anything MS has ever released before. Vista treats users like they have the plague, ..as well as terminal idiocy.
      I’m having fun though, while expecting NOTHING that is mission critical to be handled by Vista anytime soon – if ever.

      Next MS OS move? “Swipe your card, then will let you use our software — maybe”.

      Be afraid… be very afraid.

      • #2515889

        What also gets me…

        by travisfx ·

        In reply to Hello?

        Is that XP is great ! From the standpoint of stability, functionality, relative ease of use and so on – both in the enterprise and at home. Yes yes we whined a bit with every change but this time its different.I would venture to say that ’95, ’98 even 2k were, let’s say, evolving?
        XP is an evolved product. Plug in a device, away it goes, its stable, etc. How easy can it get?! So I don’t understand the reason, why Vista is even here! (well of course we really DO, its $ad..). The only real reason could be / should be a huge security improvement. Is it? I don’t know. So yes we needed OS upgrades to get us to where we are but the same driving reasons have changed for sure. The next release should have been an improved, maybe slimmer XP (“i” for improved or “s” for secure or ?) NOT an overbearing, demanding, bloated OS with a fat price tag. C’mon MS!

        • #2515776

          Security improvement?

          by jfowler ·

          In reply to What also gets me…

          “The only real reason could be / should be a huge security improvement. Is it? I don’t know.”

          Well sir, if it is a Security Improvement it’s largely because MS has restricted YOUR access to the software running on YOUR computer.
          With UAC active you cannot even open the “My Documents” folder in Windows Explorer !! “Access Denied”
          Huh?! You kiddin’ me or sumthin’?

          Tired of being bashed for lack of a secure desktop, MS is taking the path of least resistance (IMO) by making life difficult for the poor slob on the other side of the keyboard. I guess that’s just easier than building a secure kernel.

          So, is Vista more secure? Sure it is.. it’s also less functional and more difficult to use, at least for now.

        • #2515773

          A secure room in a house that nobody can access is very secure

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to Security improvement?

          but how practical is it to have if everyone, especially the owner of the house, is locked out of it?

          This is the stupidity behind security in Vista for lack of a better analogy.

        • #2515745

          I agree

          by travisfx ·

          In reply to A secure room in a house that nobody can access is very secure

          Yeahh kill all functionality. Very good MS. Baracade all the doors, windows, throw away the key. There! ( slap hands together). Now she’s secure. Wait a minute… Doh!
          I can’t imagine that’s the idea of Vistas improved security. What a bunch of idiots.

        • #2515011

          Remember: NT was DOD Rated for security!

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to A secure room in a house that nobody can access is very secure

          Oh, yeah. I think that was NT 3.51 and only when it wasn’t connected to a network.

          Col, what do you remember about this?

        • #2514957

          The Aust DoD approved NT 4 for use on Defence

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Remember: NT was DOD Rated for security!

          admin networks without extra encryption as long as they had a good public gateway. The network was only allowed to handle things up to the confidential – Commercial-in-confidence – highly protected level. Nothing that was heavy national security stuff, that required extra encryption on a separate NT 4 network.

        • #2516893

          Which DOD? You mean Dept of Dumbasses?

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to Remember: NT was DOD Rated for security!

          The same DOD that allowed some Navy commander to replace a battleship’s Unix based navigation systems with Windows NT4, causing the ship’s systems to crash and requiring that the battleship get towed back to port?

          I’m sure we’ve all hear of this story back in the 90s’, and yes, it did happen contrary to what people think may be an urban legend.

    • #2515883

      Yes

      by ellisw ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Yes it’s totally outrageous. and it may drive me into the Mac camp

    • #2515862

      Get over it

      by nashsource ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Just calm down! For goodness sake, they’ve made a new product. Either use it, or don’t use it, but don’t expect them to keep selling something when they have a new version of it on the market.

      • #2515851

        Why not?

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to Get over it

        Why should I not be able to buy XP?

    • #2515845

      Is MSFT out of their minds?

      by eddie n ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Do they think by hiding availability to Windows XP that more people will move over to Vista? If so, they are greatly mistaken. When I finally purchase a new laptop — assuming it isn’t a MacBook, of course 🙂 — I will insist that they put Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 on it. If they try to force any version of Vista on me, I will take my business elsewhere, guaranteed.

      • #2515805

        Windows XP treated like a banned contraband by MS

        by why me worry? ·

        In reply to Is MSFT out of their minds?

        because they are resorting to Nazi tactics to promote the sale of Vista and quell the sale of XP. What happened to consumer choice in this matter? I can still go to a car dealership and buy a 2006 model if I want to, but when it comes to software, I have to resort to underground methods to get a copy?

        Hey Bill, if you are listening, “You’ve lost your god damned mind”

        Sincerely,
        A Microsoft Certified Professional who is annoyed with Nazi sales tactics

    • #2515819
      Avatar photo

      The OS Upgrade’s not the biggest sore point

      by stevenmoulden ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      It’s the fact that so many businesses and other entities have recycled their old hardware to get the most $$$ for their efforts. I agree that there comes a time for Microsoft (or even Apple for that matter, or fill in your OS here_____) that it becomes time to move on. Any business that budgets hardware has to realize that OS upgrades are as much of the package as the hardware ones. It’s why we as IT staff still get to come to work every day because WE are the ones who have to learn to support it! It’s why we get those fun training days, those conferences that aren’t just for the free giveaways. I see my biggest headache isn’t necessarily going to be supporting Vista, but instead rolling out all new hardware to support it!

      • #2515817
        Avatar photo

        and as a side note

        by stevenmoulden ·

        In reply to The OS Upgrade’s not the biggest sore point

        Does anyone still have copies of Windows 3.11 or Windows 95? I mean after all, aren’t we supposed to still support those too?

        • #2515804

          I still do and I run them as virtual machines, just in case

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to and as a side note

          I work as a consultant and I never know if a new client will pop up that is still running something as old as Windows 95/98 or 3.11, but trust me, I am sure they are out there because it still suits them and they haven’t been compelled to upgrade because their legacy apps don’t need 2000, XP, or Vista.

        • #2515796
          Avatar photo

          Get more people to run virtual pc’s

          by stevenmoulden ·

          In reply to I still do and I run them as virtual machines, just in case

          When I left the Navy last year, I was in charge of a legacy system running on a NT4.0 Server….so I know the “pains” of watching others and their new toys! It’s why I still keep my copies of NT4.0 running on a few virtual machines for the same reasons that other people are trying to scoop up as many XP copies as they can. It isn’t like MS is driving storefronts to sell Vista (well maybe a little), it’s the large chain stores like Office Depot, Office Max, etc that know customers like having the latest and greatest…it’s also why those same chains don’t have their own tech support for the systems they do sell. Instead they rely on selling support contracts with third parties and getting a cut of the deal. I’m sure that MS knows that not every entity is going to rush out and buy Vista, it’s why you can still purchase volunme licenses for XP direct from them! I think XP will be around a bit longer, just look at how many Windows 2000 machines are still out there. We still have two or three here because the applications that run on them don’t need XP or the hardware requirements for them. It’s all about squeezing the last drop of money (ROI) for the purchases’ we as consumers have made.

        • #2515775

          I would if I could, but virtualization is like rocket science to end users

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to Get more people to run virtual pc’s

          Simply mention the term “virtualization” and their eyes glaze over with a frozen look, as if you are are attempting to repo their PCs’ from them. They think “virtualization” means that they won’t have a real PC in front of them and will work in a “virtual reality” environment. When I explain how virtualization works in layman terms, people get the idea, but are still very skeptical about running a “virtual OS” on top of another OS. It takes some getting used to, but I run VMWare GSX and have VMs’ for every possible OS I can think of. I don’t run them all at the same time because I can’t afford to spend the money on 2TB of RAM, but I run them as I need to to keep my skills fresh and to refresh my knowledge about an older OS.

        • #2514936
          Avatar photo

          Actually I do

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to and as a side note

          And I even buy copies of M$ DOS only a couple a month but M$ is still selling them with absolutely No support. A couple of years ago they tried to switch the sales of DOS over to buy a OEM Copy of XP Pro and use the backward License so you can install M$ DOS. Lets see $60.00 AU for a DOS License as apposed to a couple of hundred $ AU for an OEM copy of XP Pro. When that idea was rejected by the customers M$ went back to selling DOS at $60.00 AU a pop. Currently they are selling about 50 copies per month in AU. But here is the funny thing the Sales Guy at a Partners Meeting said that he couldn’t understand why people actually still continued to buy copies of DOS when they could just install from the Floppies and no one would be any the wiser. You should have seen the look that he got from the Head of M$ Legal as he said this. If looks could kill he would have been incinerated on the spot. I assume that when the Roadshow moved on from Brisbane that was changed. 😀

          The DOS goes onto Computer Controlled Machines like Lathes, Milling Machines, Armature Winders and the like that are used in the Power Generation Industry well the ones that I work with are anyway and the NT4 Client is used extensively in the Earthmoving Industry as they have a Program that currently has no plans to upgrade available that allows them to get their earthworks to within 2mm of specification so it saves them lots of money and on big jobs the computer isn’t expected to last the distance or be of any use on the next job depending on the job in question.

          Col

        • #2514898

          Yep, I do, I also have a copy of the little program MS released

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to and as a side note

          and later withdrew that allows you to run Win 3.11 as a 32 bit system. And don’t forget my copies of Dos 5, 6, 6.2.

          With Win 95 did your want 95B, 95C or 95D. My copy of 95A is corrupt now.

        • #2539108

          I still have copies of Win98 Second Edition AND Win95….

          by eddie n ·

          In reply to and as a side note

          …and I’m sure if I look hard enough I can find my old Windows for Workgroups 3.11 3.5″ floppies. 🙂

          Heck, if I REALLY dig around my attic, I’m sure I can still find and dust off my TRS-80 DOS disks! I rarely throw anything away, because, hey, you never know! 🙂

      • #2514712

        For heavy IT shops “yes”. For the rest of the world “No”

        by daveo2000 ·

        In reply to The OS Upgrade’s not the biggest sore point

        For those of us that work in bleeding edge IT shops, we expect to get screwed by MS every 18 months or so. Plus all of the recent high-school grads or script-kiddies looking for work always want to get the latest beta release of MS’s latest replacement for the last “be all / end all” technological buzzy/whistler/flasher toys.

        However, there are a lot of people out there (most of the world?) that just need to get their work done. At some point, they buy something that has a computer built in or as part of the package. They may not have wanted it that way but that is what they were sold. Not all that long ago, you only upgraded a computer system when it no longer performed what you needed it to perform. Remember the phrase “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”?

        Now, we in IT are in the mindset of “If you haven’t fixed it lately, it must be broke.” Those other folks that just want to do their jobs just keep getting frustrated about this mindless vicious circle of upgrading and intentional obsolescence.

        • #2514688
          Avatar photo

          Dave do I have to take you out the back and Edgeamucate you again?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to For heavy IT shops “yes”. For the rest of the world “No”

          Granted I work Business and we work to a Tax Cycle of about 4 years where everything gets replaced with new stuff because the Tax has written the value of the computers and related hardware down to such a level that there is no longer a viable Tax Deduction in having the old Hardware there so it gets replaced. :p

          So my attitude has always been when the Accountant tells you to buy something new I’m going to be the one who supplies it. Granted along the way quite a few printers and the like get replaced when they break as it’s not worth attempting to get them repaired and whatever Backup Solution that is in place needs to be regularly tested and certified that it’s working properly but otherwise it’s all routine maintenance for this little black duck. 😀

          There is a problem arising right now for me as by June this year I have several companies who are due for a complete replacement of all their hardware. I’ll be deploying XP Pro again as currently there is no advantage to move to Vista Ultimate except from a Profit Margin point of view and lots of reasons not to make the move the main one being that the [b]Mission Critical Business Systems Don’t work with Vista.[/b] so that makes it easy not to sell. :^0

          Col

        • #2516697

          IT is not about “bleeding egde”, but about business continuity

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to For heavy IT shops “yes”. For the rest of the world “No”

          And any IT dept that blindly follows what MS and Gartner tells them are not doing what’s best for the company. It takes good IT managers, CEOs’, and directors to say “NO” to Vista because they realize of the impact that Vista will have on getting work accomplished. I’ve worked for a NYC based law firm in which they boast about running “bleeding edge” technology, but in the end, the IT dept has to deal with the nonsense and users are lawyers are screaming about not benig able to get work done.

          At my level in my career, I can easily weed out newbies and tech wannabes, because as you said, they are the ones who need to have the leatest and greatest because they have little to no knowledge of the underlying problems that these poducts introduce and how it will affect business productivity.

    • #2515818

      Yes indeed

      by askell ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Outrageous? Yes indeed!

      A new product does not mean that an older one is unprofitable, especially
      when the latter is “almost” house-broken securitywise.

      Given MS?s track record Vista users will suffer the same chore & agony
      of flaws & faults & whatnots as with previous issues.

      This may be profitable for MS. It?s certainly not so for the users (sufferers).
      Profitable that is if the customer is left without choice.

      Most MS users will not, for several reasons, be willing or able to switch
      from MS to different opsys (Cost & Habit are powerful persuadors).
      This is what MS banks on.

      Vista entails increased cost (hardware, software, educational etc) for the enduser.
      Leaving the MS customer high & dry by not continuing a previous product for a
      decent number of years is indeed outrageous.

      Sentimentality is not the issue here. Decency & Good custom is.

    • #2515790

      You are so right!

      by domiller0550 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      I am upset that Honda stopped making parts for my Goldwing and now I can’t find the seals I need. Oh I forgot it is a 1985.

      • #2514929
        Avatar photo

        Then buy a Ducati

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to You are so right!

        I can still buy parts for my 1959 250 Ducati and they only made 5 of these things as the Factory GP Bikes which where never raced by the factory. Granted there are slight differences between these and latter models so things like Gear Clusters are different and Con rods but I’m still able to buy new stock of these parts without a problem.

        Then I’ve just bought a complete interior for a 1972 Mercedes Coupe so that’s High Back Seats front the rear seats and Door and internal skins. Even Mercedes has it’s own Dedicated Classic Car Devision which specialises in providing parts for any of the customers needs.

        As for the seals that you need Honda never made them in the first place so you can always look to the original maker and I’ll bet that they still have them available. Actually the Biggest problem that I ever ran across was a Moto Guzzi that bent an exhaust Valve when it was less than a week old we couldn’t replace the Valve with anything from Guzzi so we took measurements and found that a Toyota Valve had the same dimensions and we used those ever since. But replacing Oil Seals are the easy things. Honda had a practise of supplying a gasket set without the Oil Hole in the Crankcase Gasket which was interesting to say the least particularly when you managed to seize new engines within a couple of hundred feet. 😀

        Col

    • #2515772

      “I want my Win XP”

      by robert.hostetler ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      I recently shopped for two laptops for a relatives business use only to find everything “Vista”. When I inquired about XP, I was told that only a few display models were left, and get this, they actually hiked the price up from the original cost. In order to satisfy the order specifications, I purchased two notebooks with “Vista” only to find that the software purchased for the business is INCOMPATIBLE with “Vista”. Yes, I agree with you completely. I too am very irritated by this.

      • #2515758
        Avatar photo

        As spoofed on User Friendly

        by stevenmoulden ·

        In reply to “I want my Win XP”

        Best Buy’s tag of Best Buy replaced with Best Buy Somewhere Else

        Why not buy a barebones laptop with no OS and install the OS of choice? I know several vendors out there sell laptops like that! I won’t shop for a new PC through Office Depot, Office Max, CompUSA, Best Buy, etc, etc etc….At least with Dells, if you’re buying them in bulk they’ll work with you!

        • #2514956

          I like the User Friendly shots at Vista activation this week

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to As spoofed on User Friendly

          Steff, their marketing guy is mega MS supporter. He puts Vista on his machine and the tech guys refuse to touch it, next the activation says it’s a pirate, next day the MS guy on the phone tells him to buy a legal copy (which he already has), yesterday’s he gets upset because the MS tech is now examining his hard drive by remote access without getting permission. Can’t wait for today’s (Friday here) installment.

        • #2514921
          Avatar photo

          Fridays Episode

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I like the User Friendly shots at Vista activation this week

          M$ Legal pays him a visit and hands him a subpoena to appear in court for Pirating their New OS and he gets to defend himself for only a few hundred K to prove that he actually did have a Real M$ Provided copy of Vista but as the legal system here doesn’t support scurrilous prosecutions he doesn’t get awarded costs so that $400.00 AU OS ends up costing him close to half a million and it still doesn’t work. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #2516918
          Avatar photo

          Bill and the Gang

          by stevenmoulden ·

          In reply to Fridays Episode

          Makes me wonder if Bill and the Gang will next go after free speech in addition to their piracy campaign….drive the rest of IT to underground support centers!!!

    • #2515751

      Is it OUTRAGEOUS or is it just me?

      by tufop ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      How long after 2002 can you buy a brand new 2002 Toyota?

      Microsoft has long stated it’s goal is 1 new OS a year. I don’t know if that includes Server OS’s but it’s like anything else. Eventually it’s obsoleted by the manufacturer.

      • #2515747
        Avatar photo

        Exactly

        by stevenmoulden ·

        In reply to Is it OUTRAGEOUS or is it just me?

        and I love my 1998 truck….

      • #2514919
        Avatar photo

        OK now I’m confused

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Is it OUTRAGEOUS or is it just me?

        Where did you get the 1 year figure from? Certainly not M$ as they are currently saying that every 2 years they expect to provide a SP similar to SP2 for XP and then every 4 years a new OS that is a development of the current Vista and that Vista is the basis of the next 10 years of M$ Development.

        That is what M$ was saying as of February 2007 and it was said several times prior to the last Partners meeting so if they can stick to the stated timetable which not even the M$ presenters are certain of that should mean that sometime in 2009 there will be a Vista Service Pack Released and then sometime around the latter part of 2011 there will be the next progression of Vista.

        But if I bought any new car I would certainly expect to be able to buy parts for it for quite some time after the initial purchase so it could be kept on the road. I don’t expect to take delivery of a new car with a sealed Fuel Tank which requires replacing the car when the fuel runs out.

        Col

        • #2514703

          Now Col, be serious. ;)

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to OK now I’m confused

          Why should you expect to be able to go to a store and buy parts for the engine of a car manufactured over 30 years ago? Certainly the manufacturer would make sure that you couldn’t get any parts; and, more importantly, if you lose your keys you won’t be able to get replacement keys. That would just make no sense! How will car manufacturers feel about you taking away the consumer’s incentive to buy a new car?

          Once a new model of car is on the market, the manufacturer goes out and tries to get all of last year’s unsold models back from the dealerships so they can provide the dealer with the new models.

          I thought, for sure, you knew this! :0

          BTW, if we ever get (gods forbid) a Windows OS as part of a car, do you think that MS will support a car OS that is over 10 years old? Or will you be forced to upgrade your car at that point?

        • #2517138
          Avatar photo

          Well currently every early 1970 Mercedes that I have

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Now Col, be serious. ;)

          Has EFI and it’s a true Electronic Fuel Injection system not one of those manifold pressure sensors that alters the amount of fuel being dispensed through a Fuel Distributer and with the fuel injectors constantly on. The 6 Cylinder Car had 2 X Banks of 3 Injectors that open together as they do in a modern car or if you are looking at one of the V8’s they have two blocks of four that do the same thing. It’s a Bosch System and by no means the first Bosch Fuel Injection System.

          Personally I can not ever see M$ convincing Bosch to ever use a single M$ product and if they where to M$ would want to back out as Bosch would demand at the very least a 30 year Service Cycle for their products. That’s what they have now and in all likelihood will continue with. So with all the non Japanese and Korean cars taken care of there is no reason for the Japanese and Korean Car Companies to move to a M$ supplied Embedded OS. These also use standard off the shelf parts that are made by third parties so M$ would need to try very hard to get those Manufactures to take them up on a M$ Embedded system to use when everyone else is refusing to touch that type of thing.

          Actually much more importantly there is a lot of Medical Equipment currently in use that uses Embedded M$ OS’s and they are what will be interesting to see what happens. Things like Ultra Sound Machines are typical of this and as they have a relatively long life they will have to be supported by M$ even if they produce a new OS that replaces the XP Embedded systems and moves them to Vista Embedded OS which will increase the life expediency of the machine as it will improve it’s usefulness and diagnostic abilities. 😀

          Some How I don’t think that’s what M$ had in mind when the did the deal with Siemens Medical but that’s what will be happening. The places using these could possibly end up spending more on conductive Jell than the cost of the Ultrasound machine if M$ replaces the OS with a new one that gives the unit a greater flexibility to do more with the same hardware. :^0

          Not sure just how many CAT, MRI & PET Scanners run on M$ OS’s mainly because I avoid Medical work like the plague I’ve done my time in hell and don’t need to repeat it but it would be interesting to know just how many of these Computer Aided Diagnostic Machines actually use an Embedded version of XP. There is currently [b]No Way Known[/b] that something as expensive as a CAT, MRI or PET Scanner will be ripped out because the Embedded OS is no longer supported. I know that the European Governments would be straight at M$ through trying to rip out the Jugglers and I’m betting that most other Governments including the US would be in line to do the same thing. :p

          Medical Diagnostic technology is already expensive and we don’t need the prices of these machines and procedures being ramped up just because M$ decides to stop producing different Embedded OS’s that drive them.

          Col

    • #2515006

      This hysteria ensues each time a new OS is released

      by dt6string ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Copies of XP are getting harder to find at retail outlets. SUPPLY AND DEMAND. If more people are looking for Vista, thats what they’re gonna find more of on the shelves. As retailers see the demand for new XP licenses dwindle, they stop buying it, PERIOD. A retailer’s most valuable commodity is FLOORSPACE. Don’t waste it on a product with greatly reduced demand.

      It will take a while for Vista to get smoothed out. We saw this with 95, 98, Me (was that really an OS?), 2000 and XP. A few months down the road and all this over-reaction will die down.

      I’m advising my customers to stay with XP until at least SP1 if not SP2. If they just have to have the newest and greatest, then I set them up as a dual boot. When an app isn’t functioning in Vista, boot to XP and keep searching till you find the upgrades to make apps compatible with Vista. Some will never be compatible. Thats just the way it goes. In every industry.

      From the look of some posts here, it sounds like we should just put a stop to all progress so a few complainers aren’t inconvenienced.

      I always felt that a great part of the fun of this field is hunting down or creating the workarounds to make something work that most people say isn’t working or will never work. I’ve met some incredibly ingenious and tenacious individuals in the IT field who just get it done. Who just get it period.

      No more conspiracy crap. Microsoft is a corporation. They never claimed that they were a non profit organization. Many of us owe our incomes, our jobs and careers to them. I’ve bashed them quite a few times myself, but as time goes by and I grow my own business, I’m looking at the ROI. How quickly will my current business practices and products give me a return on investment, just like MS, IBM, Exxon, and all the rest.

      And besides, just think of all the new business we will be getting because of the problems with Vista upgrades. These are the times of opportunity for us all. Its not that we’re taking advantage of others poor fortune, we are providing a much needed service to frustrated users and this is when we stand to gain the most. Right now.

      • #2514987

        Are you saying you no longer

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to This hysteria ensues each time a new OS is released

        criticise MS business’s practices because that would make you a hypocrite? ;\

        If so I admire your honesty. 😀

        Do note before we can fix problems in vista we have to buy it, possibly a box to run it on, learn it, find the tools we need to do our jobs on it, while holding down our current markets. That’s a lot of disruption and extra effort and outlay for a potential return.

        Depends on what you do, but if I was still contracting in the UK, upgrading my desktop, (no way vista will run on it) buying two vista licenses one for my portable and I might need the XP), VS2005, Office 2007? SQL Server 2005?, Delphi upgrade…
        We are looking at up to 50% of what used to be my gross here, still it’s prettier so I feel much better about it.

        I don’t owe my income to MS, I was writing commercial programs while he was thinking frames, doors , squares, windows !

        You don’t owe your income to MS, in fact no one does, without us, he would have been selling fridges door to door, of be churning out bad code for ibm.
        We are his market, and he keeps doing us in the ass.

        Could you go to your customers, and say buy this or you get no support? Could you say no we don’t sell that any more here’s our new version which works with naff all else, you’ll have to buy new hardware to run it, oh and it costs more?

        I can see why you’d like to be in that position, expecting your customer’s to be grateful for it, is a bit much though isn’t it?

        • #2514969

          It does depend on what you do

          by dt6string ·

          In reply to Are you saying you no longer

          Its nice to be admired for something as simple as not being a hypocrite! Glad i don’t resemble that remark.

          True, in you’re position, you are looking at possibly a large outlay of dollars. I did mention that I look closely at ROI, which for me is primarily equipment (hardware), software, advertising especially, and training and education. Some areas of support are going to be harder hit than others.

          But I strongly disagree with you on owing income to MS. You may not like it, but they have the lions share of the market of business desktops and certainly home PC’s.

          Now, thats not to say that another software innovator (whether MS is an innovator is a topic for another discussion) that developed a better and more widely adopted OS wouldn’t gain my appreciation just as deeply or more so. I’m not beholden to MS, but as they OWN the desktop market, I do owe my income to them. If IBM had gotten there, I would recieve most of my income from their designs, efforts, and, more so, flaws. But the businesses I support use Windows Desktops, and Servers (though not exclusively) so at this point in time, its MS, plain and simple.

        • #2514951

          Design is what I do

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to It does depend on what you do

          I’ve earned just as good money doing it for other platforms as I have with windows.
          I started my career in manufacturing doing main frame (well mini really) admin and coding. So in real terms MS replaced my market or had no affect on it at all.

          Having my own affordable PC with my broadband so I can converse with my peers, play online poker etc is nice. There’s no doubt that MS success expanded the home market to the point where PCs had to become affordable for the home user. I pay for that and MS among others, make a tidy profit out of it.

          But my career achievements are dependant on my talent, must be, because I’d been coding 11 years before I touched a PC, and that was a state of the art IBM XT 286 with dos 3 on it.

          Given you are into the elimination of BS, how could you possibly be a hyprocrite. 😀

        • #2514913
          Avatar photo

          Actually what you are saying is

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to It does depend on what you do

          That if it wasn’t for people like you M$ would be dead and buried for supplying the junk that they do supply.

          I don’t owe M$ a single cent and they don’t put a single cent in my hip pocket but their shoddy products do and the fact that M$ is incapable of supplying fixes that the average End User can apply is what makes money for me. M$ inability to do anything correctly so I have a saying that I use to every customer [b]Don’t blame me I only fix the mess I didn’t design it,[/b] if you have a need to complain about the shoddy product take it up with either M$ or the Government Authorities that are in charge of Fair Trading. As I’m unable to help you I can not even look at the Source Code to fix problems that have been designed into the Windows Kernel.

          But it’s nice to see someone who really thinks that they owe their livelihood to M$ when it’s actually the other way around. 😀

          Col

        • #2517075

          We’re saying about the same thing

          by dt6string ·

          In reply to Actually what you are saying is

          I think you misread what I had to say, or misinterpreted it.

          Yes, we clean up their mess. But mostly we clean up the mess of the end users. They are the ones who open infected attachments in their email from senders with names like Gun A Junkya, don’t update and patch their OS, tell me on a service call that they think their AV is fine, but it expired a year ago. Most that I know don’t try to educate themselves on best practices.

          Hell, there are two sides to every story. Everyone here has pro’s and con’s. All I’m saying is that I got out of the Corp IT world and coudn’t be happier for it. Most of my business is not from home PC users, but its still a good portion. I appreciate that I am very good at what I do, both technically and as PR/Sales and that MS products or mistakes, whatever you want to refer to it as, produces an income for me. OK, I see your point. I produce my own income but its because of the same thing. MS helped create a huge market where individuals like us are needed and in that sense, I owe much of my income to them, to their poor design or planning or whatever.

          So, simply put: IF you recieve an income working on MS OS’s, you make money because of their efforts and marketing, good or bad. You capitalize on it, Period. You can’t really think that you put money in their pocket, that I have it wrong and its the other way around. Thats a slightly inflated view of oneself. How much money do you think you could put in their pockets? Insignificant is how much. We could ban together and say we have power and $’s in our numbers, but we could leave today and tomorrow the void would be filled by newbies and on it would go.

          Tony Hopkins situation is different. He isn’t beholden to MS in his line of work. More power to the man, although he’s still a smart ass…. 🙂

          I supported 20,000+ users worldwide (thankfully not alone) and the only system with a near flawless record was the corp mainframe. And even then, most problems revolved around emulation software. Thats reliability that Unix or Widows Servers will never match.

          As for the parasite remark, daveo2000, would you consider a physician a parasite? Of course not and neither are you or I. We didn’t invent the disease, we’re just providing the cure. Till the next outbreak…

        • #2517056

          Some of them are…

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to We’re saying about the same thing

          I see what you are saying and understand that much of what we do is actually creative, but it bothers me that so much of what we do is making up for software that could be so much better.

          Most of us have some pride in what we do. Sure, sometimes some folks might let something slide because the client is a real jerk; but, those are limited cases. MS isn’t dealing with individuals, they are selling en masse. Why was it that the same IP stack problem that caused BSOD in earlier versions of Windows was still there in 2k and, if I remember correctly, in XP? Why do they spend more time trying to kill cooperation (like Samba) than they do trying to fix bugs?

          As for the doctors analogy, why didn’t you choose lawyers? 😉 I think they fit much more closely (since, after all, MS uses so many of them!) ]:)

          Yes, some doctors are parasites. I put many (but not all) plastic surgeons in this category. All you have to do is listen to news reports (and some of the gun lobby folks here) to hear about what some doctors do badly for their patients.

          But that wasn’t your point. The good doctors treat the problems that their patients have gotten themselves into. So, in that, I think you have a very good parallel (for this aspect of it) in comparing MS with cigarette companies.

        • #2514670

          It kind of sounds like you are saying “I’m a parasite and I’m OK with that”

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to It does depend on what you do

          I feel that I am becoming more and more of a dinosaur in my feelings about how business should work. Maybe I have been infected with that Open Source bug that makes a person think that they should try to provide a good product and after that people will want to use it.

          Many of our jobs exist because of MS. I don’t think anyone will argue about this. But I think you will also have to agree that a lot of those jobs are there because of MS screwups or outright lack of concern.

          Why didn’t Unix take over the world instead of MS? Because most of the people that were working with Unix wanted to get a job done well and not have to keep going back to the OS to fix stupid bugs. It was designed to get the job done.

          Why did MS “take over the world”? Well, “long ago” they saw a new market and jumped in. That market had lower expectations of computers and that is just what MS gave them. The “buzzers, bells and whistles” mentality kicked in with steroids and a bit of cough syrup.

        • #2517109
          Avatar photo

          Actually the real company to blame is IBM

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to It kind of sounds like you are saying “I’m a parasite and I’m OK with that”

          They wanted a second rate cheap alternative for their Open Architecture Computers that they where about to start building so they went to a struggling almost bankrupt company called Microsoft and gave them a [b]Golden Handshake[/b] which Bill G simply couldn’t refuse.

          If IBM had of gone with another OS & Software M$ would have died a natural death taking quite a lot of money and staff entitlements along to the grave with it. MS once they got way too big for their boots turned around and [b]Bit the Hand That Feed Them[/b] as IBM wanted to develop OS2 which would have been the end of M$ or at least removed them from the OS side of the market but as Bill and Steve had seen Xerox’s Prototype Unix running a fully integrated Network with a GUI on Unix they just had to race each other to develop this technology but on their own propriety platforms.

          Apple won that race and look what happened to them so this is a perfect example of being first to market doesn’t guarantee you sales or even any form of Continued Customer Support. Though when Apple went to the Bean Counters they nearly killed it off so that might not be such a fair comparison.

          Col

        • #2517087

          To give him his due

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Actually the real company to blame is IBM

          He put cheap pc and any ‘eejit’ can use it interface together and he made it work.
          Right place, right time, right network, won big. It could have all gone badly wrong on him.
          Since then he’s played that initial genius, luck, sleight of hand, whatever you want to call it like a master, business wise.

          Quality wise most of his stuff still sucks, ISAPI, .NET being a couple of exceptions, but I’m pretty sure he doesn’t give a toss what I think though. 😀

      • #2516788

        Excuse me, but where’s my check from MS for testing Vista

        by why me worry? ·

        In reply to This hysteria ensues each time a new OS is released

        and finding the bugs in it? I am not being paid by Bill Gates to fix his product, nor is it my intention or obligation to. MS is relying on the sucker end user to find all the bugs and report them instead of having the actual coders do their jobs of proper QA before releasing a product that has not been fully tested.

    • #2514996

      Yep it’s just you.

      by david.mclaughlan ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      When Ford, or any motor vehicle manufacturer for that matter, brings out their new models for the year do you go down to the showroom and rant about them not continuing to manufacture the previous years model. Of course you don?t ? there again maybe you do. Most reasonable people ask the dealer to describe the differences and decide if you want to upgrade to the new years model.
      If you want to buy a second car and you really like last years model you look for the best possible buy in the second hand market for that model. If the warranty on the second hand model has run out do you bitch to Ford ? no I think not, but there again maybe you do.
      Why do you expect anything different from the computer industry?
      If you were running DOS 3.1, and there are occasionally valid reasons for doing this would you demand support for that as well?
      To use the car analogy again if I have Model T I don?t think I would expect that I would be able to get ford original parts. In fact I think I might expect that I might have to have some parts specially manufactured. That?s the price I choose to pay if I want to drive a classic.
      Just like other industries IT moves on and develops new products, user groups form around certain collections of technologies where enthusiasts gather and support each others need to freeze time and not move on.

      • #2514907
        Avatar photo

        Quite funny actually

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Yep it’s just you.

        Particularly as Henry Ford said that he would give everyone a car if they would have it serviced and the necessary parts supplied by him meaning his company. Servicing is where the real money is in any industry is not in New Sales.

        Look at any business and ask where they make the bulk of their money from and you’ll find that it’s the Service Department who have an ongoing supply of work where as Sales are a one off profit with very little chance of a second buy unless something drastic happens.

        While I am into Classic Cars I would expect the Car Makers to supply parts for their Old cars as that is where the real money is so under that guise Mercedes Benz has it’s own Classic Car Devission that supplies parts for all Classic Mercedes. I have a 1959 Ducati that there where 5 made of and guess what Ducati still supplies parts for that and I don’t mean the easy bits that are in common use but things like Gear Clusters where instead of having the Dogs cast onto the sides of the gears the square holes are cut into the gear face below the teeth. Standard for racing but unusual for road bikes or cars for that matter.

        Even My 1982 Ducati the only part that I’m currently unable to buy is a new Gear Lever but when the next batch gets made in a couple of months time I’ll be getting a couple so that I have a few spare ones just in case anything happens to the one currently on the bike. God a few years ago I could buy new parts for a 1930 BSA without any problems not sure about that now as I have sold that bike and sidecar off so I haven’t looked for those type of parts for a long time now. Even my VW Beetle is easy & Cheap to buy parts for but they are chossy on what they sell as the lasttime I went in there I asked for a Master Cylinder Brake Kit only to be told that they don’t sell them I would have to buy a complete new Master Cylinder but at $28.00 AU I was more than happy to spend the money as it saved me quite a lot that I was expecting to pay for a stainless Sleve to be fitted to the master Cylinder and then a new Kit to be set into the Modified Master Cylinder. I can buy any panel that is needed new off the shelf for my 1965 Beetle. To me that is Service.

        Col

        • #2517074

          Col, I wish you would stop pointing out how bad the car analogy is!

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Quite funny actually

          After all, that seems to be the only one being supplied here even though it is really a lame analogy.

        • #2516776
          Avatar photo

          Hey Dave did you notice that no one is interested

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Col, I wish you would stop pointing out how bad the car analogy is!

          In taking up the battle to support M$ dropping support for XP that is embedded into Medical Diagnostic Equipment like Ultra Sound Machines CAT, MRI & PET Scanners.? 😀

          I wounder why that could be Hum? :^0

          Col ]:)

    • #2514890

      never support 4 vista…….

      by anin_26 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      can anybody tell me why we should upgrade to vista? xp is a full fledged os. its stable, rock solid, its good looking, it’s secured. so why vista? is it legitimate to upgrade to an os only 4 graphical purpose, which needs further massive hardware upgrade. i think microsoft should go 4 their further os security not 4 new, costly os which make negetive impact within people who like, who use windows since long time. and outshelfing XP…..!!, i’m afraid. i think bill gates should rethink his business strategy….

      byeeeeee……..

      • #2514700
        Avatar photo

        We will move to Vista when it’s & if it’s ready for Business use

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to never support 4 vista…….

        That will be in about 18 months time when we actually have Mission Critical Business Software that will run on Vista currently we do not have this so it’s a non issue.

        It’s just the same as when XP was released very little actually worked on it as M$ had changed the rules again for third party software houses so they all had to rush back to the drawing Board and recode their applications to make them work with XP.

        As for Vista I’m not personally supporting it yet and have no plans to do so in the immediate future either. I got caught out quite badly by supporting XP from the very beginning and I’m still hurting from that mistake.

        The fact of the matter is yes Vista needs more in the way of Hardware but again it’s already here so there is no big deal over that as we are only using what is already available so if you where to install Vista Today it should work as well as it can on the currently available hardware. The real problems are the third Parts Software that will not currently run on Vista and until this changes I’m not interested in even attempting to have a serious look at it and I have a Volume License set since November last year. I wanted to test the RTM version and I’m now satisfied that it not working properly yet so I’m not supporting it till it does.

        Besides because I’ve taken on this policy I’ve lost a Government Department who has Implemented Vista and I can finally escape the bickering and false accusations of me or my company selling Pirate Software to them. I don’t need the BS that comes along with doing their work and then after they abuse me and my staff they then have already Rung M$ to report us for selling the Pirate Software and then tell me that they have finished me off for my Illegal activities. They also don’t pay in any reasonable time so I’m personally glad to be rid of them. You know that you have a real problem when the Governments Own IT section refuse to deal with this Branch of the Government they just supply what they are told to and put the hardware in place and then walk out the door and let them mess it up even more. They are not interested and now nor am I as I’ve had 3 complaints about selling a Government Department Pirate Software in the form of a 2,500 Site License for XP Pro which is just ridiculous and they then get nasty when you prove to them that they are wrong. That and the massive staff turnover makes this place not worth supporting no matter what!

        Col

      • #2517052

        tell me why we should upgrade to vista?

        by myg33ks ·

        In reply to never support 4 vista…….

        How about tell you why you should not? As many have pointed out, Vista is alot like XP was when it was released. I waited a year to install XP as I was fully satisfied with Win2k Pro.

        Why the wait? MS continues to put the cart before the horse and releases Vista before it was ready and uses the retail market as guinea pigs.

        The real issue lies in the “4 year Life” of an operating system policy. MS will focus on all the eggs in the Vista basket and it will become a decent system at some point.

        Check the benchmarks:
        hxxp://www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/29/xp-vs-vista/

        Conclusion: K.O. For Windows Vista?

        Windows Vista clearly is not a great new performer when it comes to executing single applications at maximum speed. Although we only looked at the 32-bit version of Windows Vista Enterprise, we do not expect the 64-bit edition to be faster (at least not with 32-bit applications).

        Overall, applications performed as expected, or executed slightly slower than under Windows XP. The synthetic benchmarks such as Everest, PCMark05 or Sandra 2007 show that differences are non-existent on a component level. We also found some programs that refused to work, and others that seem to cause problems at first but eventually ran properly. In any case, we recommend watching for Vista-related software upgrades from your software vendors.

        There are some programs that showed deeply disappointing performance. Unreal Tournament 2004 and the professional graphics benchmarking suite SPECviewperf 9.03 suffered heavily from the lack of support for the OpenGL graphics library under Windows Vista. This is something we expected, and we clearly advise against replacing Windows XP with Windows Vista if you need to run professional graphics applications. Both ATI and Nvidia will offer OpenGL support in upcoming driver releases, but it remains to be seen if and how other graphics vendors or Microsoft may offer it.

        We are disappointed that CPU-intensive applications such as video transcoding with XviD (DVD to XviD MPEG4) or the MainConcept H.264 Encoder performed 18% to nearly 24% slower in our standard benchmark scenarios. Both benchmarks finished much quicker under Windows XP. There aren’t newer versions available, and we don’t see immediate solutions to this issue.

      • #2516979

        XP Rock Solid???

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to never support 4 vista…….

        Are yours connected to a network? Have you ever installed anything?
        I will admit, I like XP a lot, but it is not rock solid and can be broken even without intent.

        • #2516899

          Did they every fix the BSOD/Network cable problem?

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to XP Rock Solid???

          I remember that even NT4 still had the problem where if you had a faulty network cable you would get the BSOD on boot. I used to keep a faulty cable that I knew would crash the system just to test new releases to see if they every bothered to fix it. I can’t remember if I ever tried it on XP.

          And then there was that bit where Intel could never fix the math bug in the x86 ROM because MS had programmed to the bug instead of around it.

        • #2516896

          Honestly I do not recall that problem.

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Did they every fix the BSOD/Network cable problem?

          I have run into bad cables, but not ones that would BSOD an NT4 system (that I can recall at least).

          Maybe Mae’s new hammer has altered my memory a bit. lol

        • #2516892

          Faulty patch cable won’t cause XP or Windows 2003 server to crash

          by why me worry? ·

          In reply to Did they every fix the BSOD/Network cable problem?

          I’ve had bad cables plugged into NICs’ on both XP and 2003 and they did not blue screen. What would cause a BSOD is if the NIC isn’t firmy seated in the PCI slot, as I have seen because I didn’t want to be a brutal maniac when inserting a $1500 Gigabit NIC into a $30,000 server.

        • #2516656

          any os can be broken

          by so.cal guy ·

          In reply to XP Rock Solid???

          any OS can be broken xp is rock solid yes our network workstations have xp installed.

          and about the only problems we have are from the partition drones who try to install some crap they downloaded at home and brought to work on a jump drive.

          and try to infect the network with spy-ware or some other crap

        • #2515564

          yes, any OS can be broken

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to any os can be broken

          and mostly it is due to 3rd party programs, I agree completely. But it doesnt take only spyware/virus to break them either.

          I was just pointing out that XP is not ‘rock solid’ unless sandstone was the solid rock tested.

          that is true with all apps and OS’s. Sorry about the misrepresent there.

    • #2514865

      you can get it here cheap to

      by so.cal guy ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      http://www.nextag.com/windows-xp/search-html

      there are a lot of other places you can get it but these are the places i do my shoping with and trust

    • #2516483

      eagle1931

      by eddietib ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Too b##### true blue!

    • #2517404

      Welcome to Microsoft; please take a pair of shackles

      by neon samurai ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Who Microsoft? Manipulative? Anticonsumer? Anticompetitive? Say it isn’t so!

      Hehe.. just yet another example in the long long history of Microsoft employing every dirty trick to manipulate the market and retain it’s monopoly.

      Here’s my theory based on some ideas new to me; if I read correctly, 64bit hardware is now pretty much standard pending the market’s natural selection of a software platform standard (once Dos, then win98, now winXP). Currently the contenders are Windows Vista in it’s conveluted versions, osX or Linux. osX is starting to get alot more notice and is a very real contender in the race to become the 64bit standard OS. Linux came out of no where and continues to outpace osX and Vista in development evolution but may not yet be enough to take the average user’s desktop/laptop market. Vista has launched to less than stellar acceptace with prohibitive end user license and software taxes. Microsoft is no stranger to using anything but product quality to compete though so we can expect a series of similar tricks along with at least a few more FUD marketing pushes in the next year or so.

      – When MS Dos was king, win3.0 was only accepted as a pre-install as a way to get the underlying Dos at a discount.
      – When Win3.11 was king, win95 was slow to catch on and that was after MS locked software vendors into a win95 explicit development contract then delayed win95 for a few years killing the smaller locked-in software developers that they had no interest in buying.
      – WinXP was a fight again to get people off win98/winNT2k

      That’s just the major Windows versions excluding the increadable market successes like Microsoft BOB. Now, don’t also forget that there is a huge winXP user base out there now who’ve paid there one time product purchase and expect ongoing tech support. A single sale product does not inspire ongoing technical support (outside of purchases support contracts). Last, in the eyes of a consumer, an older version is not worth buying when a newer shinny version is available. (I was given the example of the discount bind at any local software store.)

      I suspect, Microsoft will do quite a bit of passive-agressive “curtailing” of winXP sales to premote Vista and try to reduce a long user base conversion period. I suspect also that they are in a hurry to leave the WindowsXP support desk business since winXP they won’t be pushing sales of the OS for that initial big bang of income to cover ongoing support.

    • #2517260

      WIN98,ME,AND XP

      by xnnyl76 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      RIGHT BEFORE XP CAME OUT I SAW WIN 98 AND ME ON THE SHELVES,BUT IMMEDIATELY AFTER XP CAME OUT,COULDNT FIND 98 OR ME ANYWHERE.I BELIEVE ITS ALL PART OF THE MS MONOPOLY.

      • #2515550

        AMEN!

        by lalicea1 ·

        In reply to WIN98,ME,AND XP

        That’s the Detail! That’s why Mr. Gates has 47B reasons to be happy and to say “Because it’s worth it.”

    • #2515592

      Upgrade Windows is Worthless

      by lalicea1 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Since Windows became the most used OS in 1990’s, I have always said that it’s worthless to upgrade it. After it substituted DOS 6.22, one user yelled “GIVE ME MY DOS BACK!!”. From Win95 to 98, it caused problems, from 98 to ME, it caused problems, from ME to XP, it caused problems.

      Always, upgrade Windows have caused problems.

      My Policy: NEVER UPGRADE WINDOWS. In my case, I bought a PIV 2.66G PC w/XP three yrs ago. I will keep it till my PC falls into “comma”. Also I have no plans to upgrade Office XP Pro.

    • #2538206

      XP found

      by stanj.miranda9 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Where have you looked,because i just checked newegg.com and they have it,as well as tiger direct,zipzoomfly, & mwave.This is XP Pro,and they have the full versions ,and they also have the OEMs.You couldn’t have looked to hard.

      • #2538168

        Or, maybe they weren’t there during the Vista Push week when he looked.

        by daveo2000 ·

        In reply to XP found

      • #2538132

        Well then was there a change in strategy?

        by deiceray ·

        In reply to XP found

        No, when I looked, there was no XP on tiger, or many others, including Circuit City, Best Buy, etc.. I think MS persuaded vendors to clear the shelves for vi$ta; things may have changed since the release, maybe a few people at MS came to their senses and realized a wider product selection made for a much more receptive marketplace. We’ll see. So I guess you came into the discussion a little late. I’m glad to hear one way or the other some improvement has been made.

      • #2538051

        Actually

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to XP found

        They started showing up again recently. Right after Vista was released, XP was hard to come by except the OEM versions.
        After about a week, the OEM’s got easier to find, but it took some time for the full versions to appear again, except on the microsoft.com website, where XP in all forms was still available.

    • #2538164

      Probably just you

      by michael l hereid sr ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      I found XP Pro SP2 full version plus all the others on tigerdirect .com
      http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1104919&CatId=672

      So the stores themselves probably made the decision to not restock not MS.
      Mike

    • #2538591

      BS – MS does not “pull” copies

      by keith ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Micrsoft has little to do with the disappearance of XP other than developing a newer version. The decision to suddenly quit stocking XP is up to the dealers. There is still stock out there (now NOS)all you need to do is look for it.

      • #2538559

        of COURSE they don’t…

        by deiceray ·

        In reply to BS – MS does not “pull” copies

        I would suggest that the ONLY entity that can influence the presence or absence of MS’s products is Microsoft. The American system of commerce has never been and isn’t based on restricting the consumer’s choices. If that were the case, we’d have no need for labeling or branding; there’d be one Milk, one Bread, and one Beer. There may be an issue with shelf availability, but let’s be real about this, the free market demands that as many products as are available to display for sale ARE displayed. No, it was MS; read back through the thread and you’ll see others saying exactly the same thing.

      • #2538511

        Actualy, you’re wrong – the decision was MS

        by deadly ernest ·

        In reply to BS – MS does not “pull” copies

        at one point they weren’t shipping copies of XP to fill orders, as they wanted the stores to run out and sell only Vista. To support this they stopped providing a lot of the special quantity discounts they used to give with XP, as they now apply them to Vista only. All part of their campaign to get shops to stop selling XP.

        DELL and HP had no XP models available when Vista was first released. They had large numbers of calls and Internet requests where people wanted new boxes with XP. They said ‘Sorry Vista only.’ The clients said ‘Sorry, no sale, we go elsewhere.’ Only then did they push MS to allow them to use the XP disc to sell XP machines. But you can’t buy an XP machines from their resellers, only off their Internet site.

        • #2538365

          Thanks for that

          by deiceray ·

          In reply to Actualy, you’re wrong – the decision was MS

          Thanks for the confirmation! I knew that was the case, but what would the world be without the doubting Thomases? I’ve taken that role myself; it’s a social lesson – whether you believe what you read or not. Sometimes I wonder just how “free” the free market system is. I think this is just a small example of the distortions that can occur in this economy, and it may be one of the last, as the world economy continues to exert increasing and real pressure on the economic behemoths that are used to dominating. Technology will continue to accelerate faster than economic systems can adapt to them. It’s a fascinating time, eh?

        • #2538352

          It will be interesting to see which caves first

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Thanks for that

          In the past strong regional economies could buffer a monopolist against wider economic trends, but that buffer is weakening daily. Also, more of the bigger players are starting to learn a world wide economy means a major issue in another part of the world will affect them directly, where as it didn’t used to.

          MS is currently suffering from financial downturns in Europe and Asia, so they’re using the old style system to try and tie their older markets closer to them. When what they should be doing is loosening the strings and wooing new markets. They’re making the very same mistakes the people they were in opposition to when they started did, and forgetting the very practices that made them grow in the first place.

          The question may well come down to how many USA congressmen and senators the USA Big Business can buy and how well they can pressure other countries into accepting their business rules. Time will tell.

    • #2521513

      Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      by kidweth7 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Hell yes!!!

    • #2525584

      How rich do you need to be?????

      by vegas21 ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      I thought only manure was a viable commodity when selling S…. to the public. Even then the “Market” usually approaches the seller. Gate’s need for money is only surpassed by Bush’s NEED for oil. When is enough , enough?? I am speechless

      • #2525487

        Re:

        by rkuhn040172 ·

        In reply to How rich do you need to be?????

        Enough is only enough when the person making it thinks so.

        I know that is a difficult concept for some to grasp, but we (here) live in a free, open society with free, open markets where capitalism rules the day.

        If Bill Gates decided tomorrow that he’s made enough and decided to give Windows away for free, that’s his right.

        If he decides to milk the public for everything the market will bear for the rest of his life, that’s his right too.

        You, on the other hand, have the right to not buy his products. So, stop complaining, if you don’t like it, vote with your wallet and feet.

        • #2525324

          amusing

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Re:

          “[i]we (here) live in a free, open society with free, open markets where capitalism rules the day.[/i]”

          You’re drinking the poisoned Kool-Aid again.

        • #2518890

          What Part of What I Said…

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to amusing

          Isn’t true?

          You look around and see barriers to your success.

          I look around and see opportunities waiting for me to grap and be more successful.

          To you, the cup is always half empty. To me, the cup is always half full.

        • #2518749

          That . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to What Part of What I Said…

          . . . doesn’t even deserve a response.

        • #2518621
          Avatar photo

          NO all the Poisoned Kool-Aid was recalled

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to amusing

          But with all M$ products you can continue to drink from the Poisoned Challis at every opportunity that you feel like it. :p

          Even if they fix one problem of Contamination that doesn’t mean that it can not crop up again or mutate slightly and cause another major pandemic. :0

          [i][u]OH DAM IT I forgot to add the sarcasm alert again.Now Rickk is going to have to cry it off all over again.[/i][/u] ;\

          Col

    • #2540939

      When will you people stop complaining about a “good thing”?

      by maxwell edison ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      (Note: This is a reply not only to the original message, but to many of the replies that have been posted.)

      I just don’t get it. For the past twenty years (longer, actually), hardware and software manufacturers have been leap-frogging each other in a dual effort keep up with the others’ new and improved capabilities and to make their own product better. Anyone who doesn’t understand this is naive’. If many people had their way, or so it seems, we’d still be computing with an 8086 processor with 64 KB of RAM running DOS version 4.0. Moreover, look at the all the industries and companies (including CNet and TechRepublic) that have thrived as a result, offering support, information, training, and such. How many millions of people earn their livelihoods on, what many of you call, “milking” the market? How many peoples’ 401(k) plans have grown because they, themselves, invest in the industry?

      I heard the same things twenty years ago that I hear now. When is Bill Gates gonna’ be rich enough and when will hardware and software manufacturers stop milking the market? (Get off the Bill Gates demonization, will you?) Well I have a news alert for you, folks. They have not been “milking” the market, but extending it and expanding it to create the greatest era of economic growth and technological advances in the history of the world. Such things have given all you people jobs and security, but you gripe about it. Such things have changed the way we live, but you complain. The opportunities created as a result of them “milking” the market are unlimited. But you want it to stop.

      I wonder what some of you people think with. Some of you people wouldn’t recognize a great thing if it jumped up and bit you in the …….. nose.

      • #2540932

        Max, much of what you say is true, but this time they’ve

        by deadly ernest ·

        In reply to When will you people stop complaining about a “good thing”?

        ignored the customer needs and gone their own way, like Ford did with the Edsel (I think that’s the model I wish to refer to) It was basically a reasonable car but not what the clients were looking for. Well Vista is the Windows version of the Edsel, it’s basically OK except its still has the faults of the earlier models uncorrected and is NOT what people are looking for, they’ve gone off in the wrong direction. However, unlike Ford, MS intend to push us all in that direction too.

        • #2540886

          Re:

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Max, much of what you say is true, but this time they’ve

          Give me one version of MS’s OS’s that people didn’t say the same damn thing each and every time?

          This gets old!

          Every time is the same old, worn out arguments.

          It requires too much hardware
          There aren’t any drivers available
          It’s too bloated
          It’s full of fluff
          There’s another form of anti-piracy
          It makes absolute older file formats
          blah, blah, blah

          It’s a broken record!

          Here’s a better analogy for you Deadly Ernest:

          All companies make mistakes. All companies have some good products and some bad products. Things are very cyclical. But, just like Ford has been around for over 100 years, so will Microsoft so don’t hold your breath for their eventual demise.

          Whether or not the new Vista will become the next Edsel or the next Model T, only history can tell…see you then.

        • #2540864

          Same song, different verse

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Max, much of what you say is true, but this time they’ve

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-11179-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=89748&messageID=542987

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6247-0.html?forumID=12&threadID=54086&messageID=328325

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6286-0.html?forumID=11&threadID=40706&messageID=250068

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-11189-0.html?forumID=3&threadID=65514&messageID=401843

          Want more? I could post hundreds of complaints about XP when it was first released. Substitute Vista for XP, and there ya’ go. Search the old messages for yourself. Same song, different verse. (But this time is different, right? Yea, just like then was different.)

        • #2540838

          Exactly!

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Same song, different verse

          But you know what, we’re preaching to the choir.

          These people don’t want to change, they don’t want to admit they’re wrong, and they don’t want to let go of the past.

        • #2540826

          Some questions about Microsoft

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Exactly!

          Outside of Bill Gates and Paul Allen, how much wealth has Microsoft created for Microsoft employees? How much wealth has Microsoft created for investors? How many independent companies have been created because of Microsoft? How many people outside of Microsoft are (have been) employed as a result of that company’s success? How influential has Microsoft been to the United States’ economy over the past twenty years? How much has Microsoft directly contributed to the economy of the United States? How much has Microsoft indirectly contributed to the economy of the United States? How much tax revenue has been generated by all the aforementioned sources?

          The wealth of Bill Gates is minuscule compared to the impact Microsoft has had on the American economy — indeed, the world economy. And people demonize the guy who’s systematically giving all his wealth away. I just don’t get it. Anyone who suggests that Bill Gates “does it for the money” intimately knows the inside of his own anatomy.

        • #2540824

          Before making blanket commetns, you should

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Exactly!

          Check ALL the past posts by those you’re bagging. Many of us have supported MS for years but finally got fed up when they went too far. After 20 years of being a MS user I tossed them because I was fed up with WGA crashing my system and all the old Word and Excel files I needed for legal reasons wouldn’t open in Office 2003. So I switch to software that functioned PROPERLY, as well as looked pretty.

        • #2524133

          WGA

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Before making blanket commetns, you should

          Sorry your experience has been so bad.

          But others of us have had quite the opposite experience.

          I support over 14 servers and 100+ PC’s. I have had one WGA issue in the last 2+ years.

          Hardly anything worth dumping MS over.

          BTW, I called MS on the phone to resolve my WGA issue. The rep was very nice and the issue got resolved in less than 5 minutes.

        • #2524118

          Had major issues with the MS World Wide Support people

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to WGA

          every time I rang up. In the end I went through the Australian sales people to talk to a tech here in Australia. After getting some actual service from a tech who understood the porblem and not some semi-trained person following a screen prompt, I got the full story.

          Seems there is a fault in the WGA code – it automatically assumes your copy is a pirate if you get too far out of date as they assume everyone with a valid copy will keep all updates up to date. If, like me, you’re on a slow rural dial up service and don’t want to spend all the time running updates, you turn auto updates off (seems MS see this as a standard practice of pirates, so you’re immediately suspect), you pick and choose which updates you want (another assumed pirate practice), and not having all the previous updates (another assumed pirate practice), that’s three negative points. Let the time between update go more than a month, and that’s the critical four negative points – bingo you MUST be a pirate and close down your system.

          Most annoying and they refused to do anything about fixing the problem apart from making me call and ask for a new registration number. Another hour or so wasted in convincing them it’s a valid copy (I bought it from MS Australia direct). the fourth time this caused me to lose work because I couldn’t do what i wanted due to WGA closing my system down at a critical time, and it was “I’m out of here, I can’t afford the losses.”

        • #2524017

          Re:

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to WGA

          Sorry for your bad luck although I question it’s accuracy.

          I have deliberately setup a PC with XP Pro, no service packs and no updates (testing machine). Been running it for quite a while now.

          No problems with WGA here.

        • #2524005

          Rickk, the problem comes with SP2 which you can’t

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to WGA

          load without installing WGA. You can sit there working the machine OK with just SP1 and any updates PRIOR to SP2, but once you try for SP2 or any update after that, or any update after that date for any other MS applications, it won’t give it to you without you first get WGA. And you can’t turn it off and still get updates.

          So the choices are either use Windows with lots of ‘essential and critical’ updates not loaded (placing the system at risk) or going with WGA and spend all my Internet time watching it talk to MS about updates or drop Windows.

          I dropped Windows as it was the most effective option of the three.

          As I said – the problem isn’t XP per se, but WGA. And the WGA in Vista is worse.

        • #2524753
          Avatar photo

          Rickk if you really want to test for WGA Problems

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to WGA

          You need SP 2 installed as unless you have that installed you don’t have WGA and will have absolutely no problems with WGA related issues.

          Col

        • #2524215
          Avatar photo

          NO Maxwell those posts where right them just as the Vista Posts

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Same song, different verse

          Are right for now. Initially when XP was released we had an option of weather or not we used it and for 18 months or so M$ continued to sell Windows 98 SE and 2000 beside XP and for those 18 months Windows 98 SE always outsold XP at the very least as stated here by M$ at a Partners Roadshow which the data covering the entire world.

          The problem with Vista is that people are being forced to use it weather or not they want to as M$ was claiming way back in 2003 that they had learnt their lesson and would never again offer 2 distinct OS for sale beside each other again. It didn’t matter that it cost more for 98 SE than XP Pro cost as OEM product the customers where wanting 98SE and able to buy it.

          A few took up XP from the very start and they lived on the bleeding edge and covered the problems that where found with the system as originally XP Pro was sold claiming that you didn’t need Servers with it you should remember that claim by M$ Marketing.

          The majority of Business customers didn’t move to XP till SP1 had been released and most of the bugs ironed out and then it was usable in a business environment but prior to that it was far to costly to attempt to place into that type of environment and have the business remain solvent.

          Personally I don’t give a Rats one way or the other but as I’m not planning on supporting Vista for a very long time and I’ll be buying XP for all the time till people decide if Vista is worth the effort to move to or if they are unhappy with M$ offering I’ll be looking for something different to suit their needs. It all depends on what Vista actually does and how it performs. I don’t give a rats about extra hardware as it’s already here and is really basic stuff compared to what you can place into one new computer so that Isn’t an issue to me and nor is the fact that it is much bigger after all there is no problem with limited storage these days and really a few TB’s are no problem to get now as well as RAM measured in the several GIG catagory the stuff is just easy to get and cheap compared to the hardware that we where buying even 5 years ago. So I don’t care one way or the other only if it actually works or not and that is the current problem and because Vista as yet hasn’t been out long enough it’s a question that none of us can answer with any certainty.

          When there are the available Hardware Drivers and software available I will start to load up a couple of new computers with the Volume License Copy that I bought in November 06 but till them I’m sitting back waiting to see what if anything happens. Earlier this month when I last looked some Hardware Makers where still offering Beta Drivers for their M’Boards so really we are not quite yet ready for a mass deployment of Vista which seems to have been rushed to market and the problems will be fixed while in the field. This is OK for gaming systems but in business this just isn’t acceptable and even M$ accept this as they have not even tried to remove XP from the Volume License Range of available product.

          Col

        • #2524124

          Please Hal!

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to NO Maxwell those posts where right them just as the Vista Posts

          Stop the story about XP Pro and not needing any servers.

          A) That has never been an official MS position, maybe just a stupid rep.

          B) We are tired of hearing it. You repeat the same old tired stories, over and over as if the more you tell them the more likely people will accept it as a fact.

          Other than that, your assessment was fair. No one is encouraging anyone to live on the bleeding edge.

          Upgrading to a new OS is a risk/reward decision that everyone has a different tolerance for.

          After any new OS comes out, including new Linux distros, few big companies take the plunge immediately. It’s common sense not too. There is planning, testing, budgets, manpower, etc to consider.

          So, given the number of factors involved for a business to make the switch, quit acting surprised that people aren’t tripping over one another to make the switch.

          This is quite normal and not an aberration. We need a little spin control here.

        • #2524047
          Avatar photo

          OH MY GOD Rickk is agreeing with me. :0

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Please Hal!

          I’m off to the hospital for immediate Heart Surgery as I don’t think that I can stand the stress of someone finally seeing the light of reality.

          If you where not supporting XP from the very beginning like I was you can not be sure of what the Marketing M$ People where incorrectly telling the customers in an attempt to move product. The No Server thing is not an isolated item but a common occurrence Luckily for me or unluckily for me I did support XP from Day 1 and I did get a phone call from M$ Technical Support asking me to look at a new setup and that caused me nothing but pain and suffering so is there any wonder that I’m unwilling to jump on the band waggon again and push something that I don’t know just how big the holes in it actually are?

          Or worse still if it’s actually going to work as M$ say it will and not be full of [b]Undocumented Features[/b] like so many of the previous versions of Windows are?

          But on a more realistic note when it comes to M$ Licensing why is it more expensive for 2 X 5 pack CAL’S than it is for 1 OEM Copy of 2003 SBS? After all the 9 CD in SBS allow 5 CAL by default so why are 10 extra more than the cost of the entire OS which is a lot more than a few CAL’S/Terminal Services.

          Col

        • #2524011

          Hope the Heart Surgery Goes Well

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to OH MY GOD Rickk is agreeing with me. :0

          1) I can agree with you more if what you say is more reasonable

          2) I did support XP from the get go

          3) Licensing – easy question. The value of that product lie not in the server itself as much as the number of people that can use its functionality.

          A standalone server, not connected to anything is worthless. However, allowing people to connect to it to get files, receive email, DHCP, DNS, RDC, Terminal Services, etc is the valuable part.

          I’m surprised that MS hasn’t lowered the OS licensing and raised the CAL’s to be honest.

        • #2523970

          Colin – Some Reality

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to NO Maxwell those posts where right them just as the Vista Posts

          Just to be clear, I NEVER upgrade simply for the sake of upgrading. This is especially true with operating systems. For example, I never even upgraded to XP, not at work and not at home. W2K was just fine, it ran all our applications quite well, and there was no compelling reason to upgrade. And it’s usually the applications (as opposed to the OS) that’s the driving force behind our upgrades, whether that be software, or hardware, or both. Our upgrade to Windows Vista is no exception.

          The reality of our industry is that we, as users of technology, (and this applies to ANY industry) continually place more and more demands on our applications. In my case, we’re relying more and more on specific engineering applications, graphics applications, and we’re on the threshold of implementing some building information modeling applications that integrate both graphics and engineering data. We’re demanding more and more functionality from our applications, and more and more computing power from our hardware. It’s unrealistic to believe that any operating system or hardware designed during one generation of applications will be sufficient to drive the hardware and application demands of all future generations.

          These things (hardware, applications, and operating systems) are continually growing side-by-side, they’re being influenced by each other, and they’re being driven by each other; and as a result, they are constantly leap-frogging over each other to keep the momentum going forward towards faster and more demanding computing power. Our applications of today will simply not function with the limited computing power of yesterday’s hardware and operating systems. And the hardware and operating systems of today (including XP), will not provide a sufficient and powerful enough base on which to run our application demands of tomorrow. And for us, to remain competitive in our industry, we better be implementing tomorrow’s applications today.

          Windows Vista will allow us to do that. A new generation of processors will allow us to do that. Moving forward, remaining on the leading edge (but not the bleeding edge) will allow us to do that. Just as companies turn-over their fleet of leased cars on a regular basis, they also do with their hardware and software demands. And anyone worth his salt in what he’s being paid will not continually cry and gripe about “yet another operating system”, but use it — and embrace it — as the basis for how we will use our computing power to produce the goods and services that keep our economies growing and moving forward.

          But you go right ahead, Colin, and tell me all you want about how I don’t know what I’m talking about; tell me that I’m not looking at one thing or the other; tell me whatever you want. I don’t care. But my company, in my industry, producing our product, can do anything that any of our competitors can do, and we can do more than many of them are able to do. Why? Because we embrace tomorrow’s applications today, and we try to stay a step ahead of our competitors. And our growing client base recognizes that. We can give them what they ask for, not because we gripe and complain about advances in technology, but rather because we embrace it.

          And that’s the way it is.

        • #2524746
          Avatar photo

          Great and that is how it should be.

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Colin – Some Reality

          But not a blind rush to deploy something because it’s new as the only reason to deploy something now.

          Software may very well make it necessary to change an existing OS and much more likely it will be a lack of processing power on the older hardware that fails to meet the new demands for customers needs. But other than Intuits updated Software to work with Vista I’ve not personally seen any new software that requires Vista to work properly and powerfully enough when there is existing hardware available to drive this software.

          But much more importantly why is all the CAM stuff that I’m currently working with relying on DOS to drive the machines that make the items? Granted these are only medium sized things like Lathes around the 20 foot bed length and 3 foot swing depth. But all the newly fitted CAM machinery fitted to that plant about 5 years ago is still working on DOS and will be there for a very long time to come yet as it takes them about a year to replace equipment on the production floor and be up and running again.

          Even a small Stone Bench top maker that I’m supporting CAM Machines only run on 98 at a pinch but DOS quite easily and currently the machines have as yet to be delivered as I’m still working with the Architects to get the floor plans right so that the equipment can be rolled in and set where it’s needed then forgotten about once in place and the fitters can just connect things up after these big heavy machines have been dropped in place. The Computer Connections are the easy part but getting all the dust excluder’s to work without leaks isn’t quite so easy.

          So there are 2 CAM plants one making Electricity Generating Equipment and one Custom Bench Tops for Kitchens and both are still using what is effectively DOS to make the product and will be for many years to come and both with relatively new equipment on the production floor.

          But Maxwell if you are moving to Vista soon lets know how you get on plugging the holes and what problems that you encounter.

          Col

        • #2524344

          & like those old Fords, you can have your Vista GUI any…

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Max, much of what you say is true, but this time they’ve

          color you want — as long as it’s black!

          Crap, this joke is so obvious, methinks Bill did that on purpose, as a sort of middle finger to us all, as he begins his retirement.

      • #2540892

        Thank You!

        by rkuhn040172 ·

        In reply to When will you people stop complaining about a “good thing”?

        The negativity and complaining on here is ridiculous.

        It is absolutely astonishing how many people harbor ill will towards certain things.

        The mantra seems to sound something like this:

        “bluesuits (unless you wear one) suck, accountants (unless you are one) suck, bosses (unless you are one) suck, success (unless it’s you) sucks, making money (unless it’s you) sucks, expensive products (unless you made it) suck, big companies (unless it’s yours) suck, America (unless you’re an immigrant dying to get here) sucks, George Bush (no wait, that was Monica and Bill, never mind) sucks…

        Get over it people.

        Is the IT industry really that distraught? Is there still a lingering IT hangover from the late 90’s?

        I, for one, love my career, enjoy working for my company and co-workers, and look forward to the exciting changes that the future of IT holds.

        I’m glad I don’t have a x186 anymore even if my OS is “bloated”, I’m really stoked about being able to own multiple PC’s at home instead of having to sell my car to afford one, it’s pretty damn cool that I have a 3 PC’s, 3 servers, a Palm, a Playstation, and a PVR all networked together at home.

        I actually, in a strange way, look forward to the next round of security issues as it pushes me to learn more and dive deeper into the inner workings of my PC’s and network.

        I’m glad to see newer programming languages and IDE’s so that less technically savvy folks can be a part of the action.

        Contrary to popular belief, I’m glad to see Linux pushing MS and others harder so that we all get the best products available that more competition creates.

        I fully understand the diverse nature of people’s backgrounds on TR. However, I will never understand the incessant complaining almost to the extent that you wonder if some people actually enjoy doing what they are doing or are just doing it out of fear of leaving the industry.

        • #2524213
          Avatar photo

          Well Rickk my boy

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Thank You!

          Today when you go to work for your house building company walk up to your Boss and Demand that he immediately drop all existing M$ product and switch to Vista.

          You openly admit that while you use it at home you don’t as yet use it at work so now the perfect time for you to [b]Bite That Silver Bullet[/b] and migrate everything to Vista now before any full in depth testing has been done. If you’re such a great believer in this product insist that you switch everything at your work to Vista now immediately and dump all existing M$ product as the Obsolete Rubbish that it is in your opinion. I’ll be interested to see just how long that building company remains afloat if they where to move immediately.

          You’ve been so forthright in your demands that everyone follow you so start to lead by Example 😀

          Col

        • #2524172

          Hey Col, when you go duck shooting, do you

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Well Rickk my boy

          aim high or low when the greenies race out to recover YOUR ducks?

          I’d bet you’re one to cover all bases and fire one barrel high and the other low.

          Or do you put out decoy ducks that explode on being picked up?

        • #2524112

          That’s the Most Ridiculous Statement

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Well Rickk my boy

          Never have I proposed anyone dropping XP immediately and taking on Vista.

          As a matter of fact, I just finished writing another post explaining (the obvious) about considerations to make before rolling out Vista, ie budgets, manpower, testing, hardware, drivers, etc.

          Bottom line is that’s our job. I approach it with enthusiasm and you dread it.

          And, once again, you use an extreme example and unrealistic conditions to prove your point when in reality you are just trying to stroke yourself at my expense.

        • #2524050
          Avatar photo

          Well you know what they all say

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to That’s the Most Ridiculous Statement

          Never put off till tomorrow what you can do today so since you are so looking forward why wait?

          [i]Bottom line is that’s our job. I approach it with enthusiasm and you dread it.[/i]

          Not quite right as you are making assumptions again that are unfounded if you actually could read you would have seen above that I mentioned that I had the RTM Product since November 06 that means that I went out and with my money brought a Volume License. Which is a hell of a lot more than you have ever attempted to say isn’t it?

          And I am dreading it if it was fostered on me right now but if Vista works in another 12 to 18 months I will be willing to roll it out company wide but first I want to know what holes there are in it and that is part of the reason why I’m not rushing out to deploy ASAP.

          But as you continue to sing the praises of Vista I can not see why you would want to wait for one second longer than you absolutely need to.

          Col

      • #2524169

        I thought you were smarter than that.

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to When will you people stop complaining about a “good thing”?

        Some of us prefer to build things, rather than just continuously fixing things that shouldn’t have broken in the first place. I, for one, am more interested in producing than holding up a house of cards.

        That’s why I actually don’t make any money these days supporting broken MS software. Oh, sure, I’ll take money fixing it if someone really really wants to pay me enough to offset the annoyance factor, but I haven’t had to do that for quite a while because there’s plenty of work to be had doing something in the IT industry a bit less soul-sucking.

        • #2523960

          Why is it. . . . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to I thought you were smarter than that.

          …..that I’ve never found myself [i]”holding up a house of cards?”[/i]

          I’ve never had any of the ongoing problems that so many people seem to gripe about. Sure, it’s presented a challenge getting new and improved products into our technology infrastructure, but once I get things working in concert (and it’s never been an effort in futility or frustration), things have hummed along just fine. And I’ve been doing it for twenty years.

          The way I see it, if people find themselves [i]”holding up a house of cards”[/i], perhaps they have a faulty foundation to begin with. Perhaps they need to design their systems a little better. Perhaps they’re overlooking some structural or mechanical consideration. I design my technology infrastructure like an architect or engineer will design a building — everything ties into everything else. Perhaps people who don’t will be fighting that falling house of cards. You might think that I should be [i]”smarter than that”[/i] (whatever that means), but I assure you, I’m smart enough to keep my own house standing strong, thank you very much.

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=213341&messageID=2229637

        • #2523874

          Republicans love the term “flip-flop”, so I’m sure you’re familiar with it.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Why is it. . . . .

          It’s interesting how first you’re talking about how Microsoft provides “us” with a lucrative livelihood maintaining it, and later you’re talking about how stable everything is.

          “[i]The way I see it, if people find themselves “holding up a house of cards”, perhaps they have a faulty foundation to begin with.[/i]”
          Yeah — poor software choices.

        • #2524920

          [i]”…..maintaining it……”[/i] Are you a Democrat?

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Republicans love the term “flip-flop”, so I’m sure you’re familiar with it.

          Where exactly did I say (or imply) that the growth in the industry was a result of simply “maintaining” Microsoft products?

          Are you a Democrat? Taking what I say and stretching it to the absurd so you can simply support your point (whatever it is)?

          Providing “maintence” for a product and growing with it are as different as night and day. (I would say as different as a Democrat and Republican, but it’s getting harder to see the real distinction between many of them.)

          By the way, I’m writing this message from my Vista computer – networked, configured, and everything working just fine.

        • #2524710

          the nature of maintenance

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to [i]”…..maintaining it……”[/i] Are you a Democrat?

          “[i]Where exactly did I say (or imply) that the growth in the industry was a result of simply “maintaining” Microsoft products?[/i]”

          It’s ironic you should talk call this kettle black, maxwell, considering that’s not what I said or even implied. You’re the one that specified that it must be [i]only[/i] about maintaining it by introducing the word “simply”, not me. All I said is that you talked about Microsoft providing us with a lucrative livelihood maintaining the operating environment provided by the Microsoft platform.

          Consider this statement of yours:

          “[i]Moreover, look at the all the industries and companies (including CNet and TechRepublic) that have thrived as a result, offering support, information, training, and such. How many millions of people earn their livelihoods on, what many of you call, “milking” the market?[/i]”

          Your implication there — or, at the minimum, the logical inference — is that maintenance is a (or perhaps [i]the[/i]) significant livelihood. What many of us call “milking” the market, what involves providing third-party support and information, and what consists in part of training as a way of making money is maintenance. Regardless of your intended implication anyway, maintenance is really all there is to provide for software from Microsoft, unless you work for Microsoft itself, because of its closed nature. It’s damned near impossible to build a livelihood off nothing but piecing together “solutions” out of MS “products” like building spaceships out of Lego blocks — most, if not all, lucrative businesses that provide that service make the majority of their money off maintenance (and I know, having been in that business myself for several years).

          So . . . perhaps you didn’t mean to say that Microsoft provides us with a lucrative livelihood in maintenance, but that’s what your statements in context imply, and if you failed to mean that you simply failed to recognize the implications of your own words as applied to the real world. If you have some kind of common counterexample in mind, please illuminate me.

          Hell, even the vast majority of MS Windows system security is nothing but maintenance.

          “[i]Are you a Democrat?[/i]”

          Nope. In fact, I’m thinking about registering Republican and voting for Ron Paul in the state primary.

          “[i]I would say as different as a Democrat and Republican, but it’s getting harder to see the real distinction between many of them.[/i]”

          It’s always nice to find common ground. I certainly don’t disagree with that.

          “[i]By the way, I’m writing this message from my Vista computer – networked, configured, and everything working just fine.[/i]”

          I’m sure there are thousands of people who haven’t had any problems at all with Vista yet — or, at minimum, haven’t had any problems they didn’t expect simply as a part of doing business with computers (whether that’s a valid excuse for a particularl problem or not in any given instance). I, at least, have never meant to imply that Vista never works right.

          (edit: italics typo)

        • #2524860

          And you conveniently overlooked. . . . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Republicans love the term “flip-flop”, so I’m sure you’re familiar with it.

          …..my “application” driven perspective.

          Quite frankly, I was content with DOS 6.0, at least as it relates to an operating system. But my APPLICATIONS became more demanding. My APPLICATIONS became more complex. As such, both hardware and operating systems had to evolve to keep up with the demands the users (my users) were placing on the APPLICATIONS. And then it happened again ….. and again ….. and again …..

          Why don’t you tap into your vast Anti-Microsoft knowledge base and enlighten me as to which operating system will better support MY application (any Autodesk product) than Microsoft.

          A big difference between other “IT Professionals” and me is that I don’t consider technology (or an operating system) the ends in itself, but rather the means to an end. I need to maintain an environment that can best support the design of smart buildings — Building Information Modeling. You tell me, what operating system can best support MY applications?

          And quite frankly, I’ve come to see the “Linux-Type Gurus” (the ONLY Microsoft alternative) in a similar light as I see the liberal elitist snobs who think they’re more “enlightened” than the rest of the population. Well, you can take your elitist attitude and shove it!

          (And if you thought I was [i]”smarter than that”[/i], well, too friggin’ bad — up yours, you snob.)

        • #2524789

          I thought that you were smarter than that

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to And you conveniently overlooked. . . . .

          Although I dont agree with you too often, you seem knowledgeable. But this last post was a cry of desparation, something I would have more expected from, say, Rickk!
          c;mon, if you are choosing your OS around 1 app, or 1 company’s apps, then there may be other problems! I often have to compare and re-compare apps as time goes on to determine which to buy. I am currently looking at document comparison SW. over the last 5 years we went from Delta View, to Diff-Doc, and now I was asked to look into alternatives because Diff-Doc got too expensive.
          If you are only looking at “Autodesk” products, and they only write for MS, then you are stuck. But with a little research, you may find an alternative package that is just as good but made by someone else, that can allow more flexibility.
          And I do not believe that technology has an end at all. It is like the energizer bunny, it just keeps going, and going, and going….

          Yes, I can agree that some Linux guru’s have that attitude, but the majority that I have met do not. They have many different reasons for moving to Linux, from desire to learn to just having free SW. Listening to just a few does not make the whole.
          If everyone judged Vista from Rickk, MS would have had no sales by now… But I judge Vista for what it is and what it lacks.

          P.S. This was posted from SUSE 10.2 Big friggin deal…

        • #2524700

          The problem with one-app environments:

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I thought that you were smarter than that

          When a given business centers around a given application, it’s sometimes for a very good reason. AutoCAD is one of those applications that is typically linked with a very good reason for building the business around a single application.

          The problem is that, having made the decision to build a business model around it, most people then continue to extend the necessary software for that application into every aspect of business without even thinking about it. It’s actually the case that most companies whose entire business model is dependent upon AutoCAD could probably realize huge improvements in profitability and efficiency by using MS Windows for AutoCAD and certain other specific functions, but other OSes for the rest of their IT infrastructure. People really don’t seem inclined by nature to consider the possibility of a heterogeneous platforms infrastructure, however, and as such completely miss the benefits of unixlike OSes for tool development, file serving, routers and firewalls, mail servers, and so on — and even the benefits of something like MacOS X for design work.

          Even worse, they fail to realize that a certain amount of diversification may be valuable even in their core business application choices. While AutoCAD may be the only application that provides precisely the benefits a company needs for its main business niche, that in no way prevents the company from diversifying the application choices for related, but somewhat different, tasks that may exist on the fringes of that niche when other applications may be better suited to the task. While this is in many cases unlikely to yield immediate benefits, it usually doesn’t introduce real difficulties either, and may in some worst-case scenario future circumstance provide the company with greater resiliency (such as in response to Autodesk ceasing to provide exactly what the company needs, or Microsoft’s platform ceasing to be a viable option).

          Since corporate business models are based around the near-term quarterly performance metric, however, rather than a continuous and complete picture of advancement of the business model, that’s only to be expected.

          (edit: This was posted from FreeBSD 6.2 — neither MS Windows nor a Linux distribution.)

        • #2524662

          Pretty Easy for You to Say!

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to I thought that you were smarter than that

          I’m in the engineering and construction business too, like Maxwell, and for you to say that there “may” be something else out there is a joke.

          You say we “may” find something. Good luck!

          Try replacing AutoDesk products, Vertex or our ERP software. Try replacing the tight integration we have between our ERP software and AutoDesk products.

          Try converting all those thousands upon thousands of files for compatibility, try telling all of our contractors that we’ve changed software so now they must too.

          Dude, you live in a dream world! While many of your technical arguments may be sound, you are delusional and simply underestimate the complexity of the real world.

        • #2524651

          You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to I thought that you were smarter than that

          Any other comment is pointless.

        • #2524590

          I’ll admit

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to I thought that you were smarter than that

          that I know nothing about autodesk suite. I pointed out that you ‘may find’ an alternate product to work, not that you ‘would’ find it , or that there was a better one for your needs. That is what research is for. But the point was merely that options are not a bad thing. And that being ‘stuck’ on 1 company for everything can be a problem in itself.

          I’ll also agree to Rickks point that conversions suck. And switching can be a real hassle. And while switching, lots of ‘conversion problems’ appear. That is why researching is also important. But, sometime down the road an option may work out. But if you dont look around or browse, then you truly are stuck.

          Maybe I did not post it well, or get the point across well enough. I did not tell you to change anything, just pointed out my opinion. Since you did not like it, fine. I really dont care. but your last post DID sound a lot like Rickk’s posts, which are usually a cry of desparation to get anyone to listen to him.

          posted from pclinuxos

        • #2524572

          w2ktechman – You assumed

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to I thought that you were smarter than that

          By the tone of your message, you seemed to assume two things: one, that I have not done any (or enough) research into available applications for my industry, and two, that I would actually find something as a suitable substitute for what I currently support. Both assumptions are incorrect. If anything, you should have assumed the exact opposite. But then again, you also suggested that you didn’t think I was very smart. In this case, I’d bet a dollar to dirt that I know just a little more about it than you.

        • #2524479

          Wasnt intended Max,

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to I thought that you were smarter than that

          “I thought that you were smarter than that
          Although I dont agree with you too often, you seem knowledgeable. But this last post was a cry of desparation, something I would have more expected from, say, Rickk!”

          Did I say that I thought you were not smart?
          Honestly, I have read many of your posts, and although I oft. disagree with you, you usually do a good job of it and think it out well. Sorry, I did not mean to imply anything else about your intelligence other than that rant of a post that I did not expect from you.

          As for the “assumption”, you are again incorrect. I never assumed that you had not, I was just explaining my previous post better. What I said was
          “I’ll admit that I know nothing about autodesk suite. I pointed out that you ‘may find’ an alternate product to work, not that you ‘would’ find it”
          and
          “I’ll also agree to Rickks point that conversions suck. And switching can be a real hassle. And while switching, lots of ‘conversion problems’ appear. That is why researching is also important. But, sometime down the road an option may work out. But if you dont look around or browse, then you truly are stuck.”

          These were explanations of my previous post. I do not see ‘tone’ in them, just some typed words to correct my point that I was intending, that apparently was stated poorly enough for mis-communucation.

          I also do not doubt that you do know more about your business than I do, so I am not going to go there at all. If you think that I was just trying to attack you, you are mistaken, I was just trying to point out a few things, like the unusual post by you, but apparently failed miserably. So, in this case, I will stop posting comments on this issue completely.

        • #2524442

          w2ktechman ? join the club

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to I thought that you were smarter than that

          [i] ?So, in this case, I will stop posting comments on this issue completely?[/i]

          Perhaps I should follow your lead.

          Like I said to apotheon, there?s no point in discussing a difference of opinion and/or a difference of perspective on subjects of religion, evolution versus creationism, or Microsoft bashing. I crashed their pity party in a lame attempt to show the positive light in which Microsoft ?could? be seen, but to no avail. If people don?t want to see it, then they won?t see it. There?s absolutely no point in me trying to convince them that Microsoft is not the devil they loath. Some people pursue some beliefs religiously ? religion, global warming, and Microsoft loathing. I should learn to leave them alone when they throw a pity party.

        • #2524388

          You do a piss-poor job of sounding reasonable, maxwell.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I thought that you were smarter than that

          Your use of the term “pity party” is as likely to make people think you have good intentions and ability to reason about anything objectively about as much as rickk’s ridiculous abuse of the term “zealot”.

        • #2524359

          apotheon – You can attack me, personally, all you want

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to I thought that you were smarter than that

          You just went down abou about a dozen notches in my book. You can kiss my ass.

        • #2524356

          You can play victim all you want.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I thought that you were smarter than that

          . . .

        • #2524701

          There are cases where business demands require a specific OS.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to And you conveniently overlooked. . . . .

          That’s a fact of life — sometimes, you simply cannot escape a particular OS (or OS family). While the reasons for this necessity are often asinine and absurd (in short, they are [i]bad reasons[/i]), that’s not the fault of the people who are required to use that specific OS in order to effectively participate in the business niche they call home. I’d never consider deriding someone’s choice of using a given OS for reasons of such a limitation, assuming that limitation is actually a practical one in that case.

          As far as I’m aware, there are cases where standardizing on MS Windows for AutoCAD and related applications qualify as such a situation. Nobody’s stupid for making the choice to use MS Windows for AutoCAD, that being the case. Of course, the point where that’s still a [i]bad reason[/i] is the point where Autodesk does not support more platforms than MS Windows. It doesn’t matter what platform is needed for an application, what OS it calls home, if the application in question isn’t designed for a purpose specific to that OS (such as a Microsoft Windows specific system cleanup utility, or a Unix specific network layer stateful firewall), limiting your application to a single platform/OS is a piss-poor choice. Autodesk make that kind of piss-poor choice, clearly. The same would be true if AutoCAD were a Linux-only application, or a FreeBSD-only application, or a MacOS-only application.

          “[i]Why don’t you tap into your vast Anti-Microsoft knowledge base and enlighten me as to which operating system will better support MY application (any Autodesk product) than Microsoft.[/i]”

          None, as far as I know. That has (almost) nothing to do with what I said before. I think you’re reading a bit more into what I said previously than was actually there, and for the extent to which that was the fault of the way I phrased things I apologize. I see now that I did take a rather fast and loose approach to composing my initial response to you. On the other hand, you probably shouldn’t be surprised at the tone of my initial response, considering I was replying to statements of yours that essentially imply that Microsoft is all good, and those of us who disagree with that must be dumb or malevolent.

          “[i]A big difference between other “IT Professionals” and me is that I don’t consider technology (or an operating system) the ends in itself, but rather the means to an end.[/i]”

          Same here. It just happens to be a means I prefer to enjoy the experience of employing. It’s also worth noting that one can employ the means of a technology such as an operating system toward more than one end at the same time.

          “[i]And quite frankly, I’ve come to see the “Linux-Type Gurus” (the ONLY Microsoft alternative) in a similar light as I see the liberal elitist snobs who think they’re more “enlightened” than the rest of the population. Well, you can take your elitist attitude and shove it![/i]”

          The fact that they have different preferences in OS don’t make them Democrats. In fact, I’m inclined to think that open source software is a more purely free market capitalist thing in either a libertarian or anarchist (depending on your perspective) sense, and the very socialism-reminiscent culture of the Free Software Foundation is equivalent in open source circles to the way the Left in US politics has “stolen” the term “liberal” from those who once did the term credit. Unfortunately, the term “liberal” in this country is now so thoroughly tainted that even people who would once have been considered liberals (and, at best, might be described as embodying “classical liberalism” now) use the term “liberal” to refer to the collectivist Left, which in turn considers such “classical liberals” to be ultra-conservative. Similarly, the Free Software Foundation and its strong lunatic fringe is trying to eclipse the positive aspects of the “natural” and free (in the sense of liberty) state of software with its own twisted left-wingnut ideology.

          If the software industry is an information economy, open source software is free market capitalism within that economy, the FSF is the pack of social democrats at the door, and Microsoft is the totalitarian fascist[1] establishment. I’d appreciate it if you were able to differentiate between free market capitalists like myself and social democrats like Richard Stallman.

          “[i](And if you thought I was “smarter than that”, well, too friggin’ bad — up yours, you snob.)[/i]”

          I referred specifically to your suggestion that Microsoft is the be-all and end-all of virtuous IT industry success when I said that. It always strikes me as odd that someone (like yourself) who clearly has his heart in the right place as regards free market capitalism is apparently unaware that corporatism in the US market economy is in fact a pervasive and corrupting influence by “managed economy” regulators in government that feeds upon itself as a vicious cycle of spreading corruption in the market. The words “business” and “corporation” should never be conflated, but at least 98% of the US is unable to separate the two concepts — it’s a cultural bias that would surely prove immensely difficult for [i]anyone[/i] to overcome.

          [1] By “fascist” I mean the denotative meaning of the term — an intermingling of authoritarian governmental and economic power, where private business interests and government are interwoven to produce the dominant power structure. That is, in essence, the very definition of a corporatist state.

          (edit: I forgot to add the footnote the first time.)

        • #2524680

          I did not say. . . . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to There are cases where business demands require a specific OS.

          …..that I saw “Linux-Type Gurus” as “Democrats”, but rather their attitude as a “know better than everybody else” paints them in a similar light as elitist snobs. I see them with similar attitudes; their political preference is irrelevant.

        • #2524589

          metaphor

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to There are cases where business demands require a specific OS.

          I was speaking in terms of metaphor.

        • #2524556

          apotheon – Let’s back up a minute

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to There are cases where business demands require a specific OS.

          I think you took my message differently than I intended. Perhaps it was my poor writing, or my poor choice of words, or my failure to write pages upon pages to clarify everything I said. But I never suggested (or intended to suggest) that Microsoft (either the company or its products) was the greatest thing since the preverbal slice of bread. I only suggested that the bad things about Microsoft pale in comparison to the good things that have come about as a result of the company’s success — at least in my opinion.

          I’ve discovered that it’s an effort in futility to discuss religion or atheism with either type of fanatic; and it’s equally futile to discuss Microsoft with one who simply hates the company. Some idiot in a message above asked (I’m paraphrasing) when Bill Gates would have enough money! Like he’s doing it for the money! Discussing Microsoft with such ignorance is something I should probably avoid, just like I won’t discuss religion with the likes of Mr. Miami.

          Anyway, let me use an analogy to illustrate one of my points. To the millions upon millions of “global warming” fanatics who want to force the auto industry to change its oil burning ways, so to speak, I simply tell them that they are such a huge force, that if it was possible, that they, themselves, should just STFU and create a whole new type of auto industry to compete with the “Big Three”. (Of course, they then launch into some conspiracy theory argument!) Likewise, if Microsoft is SO BAD, then the people complaining about it should come up with a viable product to compete with them. But they don’t. (And they, too, then launch into their own version of a conspiracy theory.)

          Do I think Microsoft is perfect? No, of course not. Do I have to jump through some hoops from time to time? Sure I do. But it’s the nature of the industry. And I’d have to do those things REGARDLESS of which product I used for whatever purpose. It’s just the way it is. Some people simply focus on complaining about problems. Others focus on resolving them. And the more focus spent on complaining, the less is spent on resolving. And personally speaking, I believe that on balance, Microsoft has been a positive force for our industry, and a positive force for our economy. And I actually do hope a viable alternative does surface. Competition is a good thing. In the meantime, I’m using the best product(s) available to achieve my own desired ends. And to spend even one second “complaining” about what I have to do to make it happen is counterproductive. So why do it?

        • #2524380

          Staying fit requires that you get out of your chair.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to There are cases where business demands require a specific OS.

          Sometimes, you just have to get out of your comfortable old butt-molded office chair if you want to improve your health. Don’t get stuck in a Microsoft rut, believing you’re living in the best of all possible worlds just because it seemed like the best of all possible worlds when you first moved into it.

          “[i]I’ve discovered that it’s an effort in futility to discuss religion or atheism with either type of fanatic; and it’s equally futile to discuss Microsoft with one who simply hates the company.[/i]”

          Perhaps people who have a problem with the way Microsoft does business have problems with the way you talk about it not just because they’re “fanatics” who disagree with you, but because you say things that lump everyone together, compares them with fanatics, and implies that they “simply hate” Microsoft. There are very real, very reasonable reasons to object to Microsoft’s business practices, but you dismiss them by generalizing about people who find Microsoft objectionable, just as you dismiss their complaints about the quality of MS software, without bothering to find out anything much about the reasons for their dislike.

          I don’t “simply hate” Microsoft, for instance. I find the ethical basis for Microsoft’s business model reprehensible at best, but it’s sort of a default way of doing business under the current mixed economy circumstances — that alone is not enough to make me decide that Microsoft is the Devil (or whatever religious analogy you’re trying to fit to my thoughts on the matter today). Sometimes, we just have to live in the world in which we find ourselves, and as long as you don’t actively make things worse, participation in the ongoing problems of the system in place isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

          Of course, that’s not what Microsoft does. Microsoft is up to its elbows in actively making things worse. It gets better, though: the way Microsoft handles bug reports, security vulnerabilities, new product roll-outs, marketing, and essentially everything else it does is pretty unpleasant for us as its customer base, and many of us have simply decided to cease lowering our standards every time Microsoft (implicitly) asks us to do so.

          Sometimes, people like you imply that the only reason some of us dislike Microsoft is its success as a corporate business enterprise, as though we’re acting out of envy or some bizarre left-wingnut “hate the bourgeois corporate masters” ideology. It’s a little like the whole “they envy our way of life” attempt to explain away Muslim terrorism — facile, overly general, and inaccurate. Oh, sure, there are probably a few people like that (in fact, I’ve met a couple), but in general that’s not the problem people have with Microsoft. By the same token, I might claim that you just worship business success at all costs, but I don’t do so because I refuse to make the same mistakes with regard to generalizing your motivations that you do with regard to mine and others who choose to avoid Microsoft software, or who simply prefer some alternative to it and try to explain that in a discussion like this.

          . . . and if all that isn’t your intent when you start using terms like “pity party” and “fanatic”, you should [b]stop talking as though that is your intent[/b].

          “[i]Some idiot in a message above asked (I’m paraphrasing) when Bill Gates would have enough money! Like he’s doing it for the money![/i]”

          I found that a little silly, too. Notice I’ve never used that “argument”, and have never agreed with it. I generally choose to avoid responding to it at all, just as I often choose to avoid many of the more insipid comments made by pro-Microsoft fanboys. Unlike you, however, I do my reasonable utmost to avoid giving any impression that I’m generalizing from the single example of someone saying something like “Doesn’t Bill have enough money yet?” to encompass everyone with whom I disagree.

          “Likewise, if Microsoft is SO BAD, then the people complaining about it should come up with a viable product to compete with them. But they don’t. (And they, too, then launch into their own version of a conspiracy theory.)[/i]”

          Actually, people have come up with viable alternatives already. I’m using one right now, called FreeBSD. An interesting thing about these viable alternatives is that they were not created as alternatives — they were created for their own sake, and they worked out excellently well. There are reasons that Microsoft’s offerings have come to dominate certain market niches, and those reasons are largely unrelated to the fitness of MS software for the needs of those market niches. The fact that certain corporations standardize their product lines on a Microsoft platform is unfortunate and sometimes unavoidable as a result of Microsoft’s dominance of those market niches — market dominance tends to be self-supporting, and is a difficult nut to crack. That doesn’t mean viable alternatives do not exist in the general case, or that viable alternatives in the specific case of something like AutoCAD will never arise.

          “[i]Some people simply focus on complaining about problems. Others focus on resolving them.[/i]”

          Some of us prefer to focus on solving problems, but have to point out the problem at great, and exhaustive, length before anyone will admit that there’s a problem to be solved.

          “[i]And personally speaking, I believe that on balance, Microsoft has been a positive force for our industry, and a positive force for our economy.[/i]”

          Even if that was true at one time — which is a dubious claim, but not one that is necessarily false — it certainly isn’t any longer. Failing to take notice of the “big picture” enough to recognize this fact because of a long tradition of seeing the world through Microsoft colored lenses is not the same as examining and analyzing circumstances clearly and with attention to detail only to find that Microsoft is a great benefit. By the same token, while Richard Stallman did a great service for ideas of liberation of the developer and end user from overly restrictive copyright law by putting them on the map, he did so through radical, extreme practices that have come to be considerably less beneficial, and even actively detrimental. This happened because Stallman was wrong about some things from the very start, and with great zeal and commitment refuses to recognize that fact. Bill Gates, similarly, was wrong to pursue certain business practices — ethically wrong. If those practices initially led to positive outcomes, that doesn’t excuse the practices, nor does it guarantee that they’ll always lead to positive outcomes (and, in fact, their outcomes just get worse with every passing year).

        • #2622837

          The Power User vs. the Administrator

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to There are cases where business demands require a specific OS.

          I lean toward apotheon’s perspective, although my use of the computer is more similar to maxwell edison’s. Oh well.

          [i]Perhaps people who have a problem with the way Microsoft does business have problems with the way you talk about it not just because they’re “fanatics” who disagree with you, but because you say things that lump everyone together, compares them with fanatics, and implies that they “simply hate” Microsoft. There are very real, very reasonable reasons to object to Microsoft’s business practices, but you dismiss them by generalizing about people who find Microsoft objectionable, just as you dismiss their complaints about the quality of MS software, without bothering to find out anything much about the reasons for their dislike.[/i]

          As an end user, I would find Windows useful, if it didn’t break at the drop of a hat.

        • #2524331

          “the means to an end”

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to And you conveniently overlooked. . . . .

          Of course. Like any customer, you purchase what is best for your intended purpose, which you know best.

          I’m thinking back to DOS 6.0, and my vague recollection that I could use DOS 6.0 on the same system that ran Windows 3.11 for Workgroups. It occurs to me that at least one option was available to Microsoft, at that time, which wasn’t taken, which is to “pick one” — DOS with a GUI interface, or the path that eventually [i]was[/i] chosen, to the NT kernel.

          Other things being assumed equal, a fundamentally sound operating system would only need to be slightly extended, say to include Universal Serial Bus, Firewire, Fast Ethernet and wireless protocols. Linux/Unix fits this description. On the other hand, a fundamentally [i]flawed[/i] operating system, with essentially nothing going for it other than what had been lifted from Xerox, would need to be overhauled, repeatedly. Microsoft fits [b]this[/b] description. [As merely a casual observer of Apple, their use of varying kernels, combined with pioneering the GUI for home/workstation PCs defies description!]

          My estimate is that your applications Absolutely Required hardware advances, but that any of the three major players in the operating system market (Apple, Microsoft, Unix/Linux/GNU — maybe that’s 4+ ?) have/had the [i]potential[/i] to accomodate those applications. If Microsoft is the only provider of the environment for the CAD software you Absolutely Require, then your decision is made. But realistically, if that is the case, it is so because Microsoft first dominated the OS market, then CAD software makers focused on MS, not because MS is the only maker of an operating system with the [i]potential[/i] to accommodate the algorithms required for computer aided drafting. Any operating system can use floating point arithmetic, and provide the same end result to you. This leaves us with an interesting abstract discussion, with more concrete socioeconomic implications, about different operating system models. Modularity built around a robust, minimalistic kernel has a lot going for it.

          I have no plans to storm into your shop and format your Windows partitions and install my favorite open source operating system. But, IT pros with our eyes on the Absolute Fullest utilization of the existing hardware and software for maximum productive value see some shortcomings in Windows operating systems, and ask legitimate questions about how such a kludge comes to control > 50% of its market. They are interesting questions. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to consider them.

        • #2523116

          Back to Reality!

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to “the means to an end”

          Thanks for the “abstract discussion, with more concrete socioeconomic implications”, but everything you said doesn’t change the situation at hand.

          You may have the time and get paid to sit around and contemplate the history of the PC industry, the socioeconomic implications, and other abstraction discussions.

          But I spend my time and get paid to come up with solutions for problems. Thanks for the history lesson though 🙂

        • #2592136

          What solutions did that little outburst deliver, rickk?

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to “the means to an end”

          [i]Thanks for the “abstract discussion, with more concrete socioeconomic implications”, but everything you said doesn’t change the situation at hand.

          You may have the time and get paid to sit around and contemplate the history of the PC industry, the socioeconomic implications, and other abstraction discussions.

          But I spend my time and get paid to come up with solutions for problems.[/i]

          Were you standing when you posted that, or do you, in fact, also have plenty of time to “sit around and contemplate the history of the PC industry, the socioeconomic implications, and other abstraction discussions”? If your time is truly devoted to profitable pursuit of solutions to problems, by all means, prove it: go away. If, on the other hand, you continue posting, you disprove your own assertion. That’s your choice.

      • #2524345

        “the others’ new and improved capabilities”

        by absolutely ·

        In reply to When will you people stop complaining about a “good thing”?

        “New & Improved” is so often a misnomer that its primary role in the popular lexicon is satirical.

        [i]If many people had their way, or so it seems, we’d still be computing with an 8086 processor with 64 KB of RAM running DOS version 4.0. Moreover, look at the all the industries and companies (including CNet and TechRepublic) that have thrived as a result, offering support, information, training, and such.[/i]

        OK, I’m looking, and I’m not saying that IT is terrible across the boards as it is. But, I am saying that there are numerous legitimate cases to be made that both the hardware and the software technologies might have been more advantageously leveraged in a market less dominated by one entity. Should the government cause such a change? Probably not. Should the government [i]allow[/i] such a change, by leaving well enough alone wherever possible? That would be enjoyable to see.

        My perspective on the last 15 years of the IT industry is that it has been geared excessively to video games, causing important advances in materials science, and probably also in intelligent coding algorithms, to be ignored in favor of fps. What a friggin’ waste!

    • #2592187

      The answer to all this is…

      by travisfx ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      a question. Yes. And it very well may be the key to the survival of debate such as this, It is:
      Is it correct to say;

      “I couldn’t give a r@ts @ss

      OR

      “I could give a r@ts @ss

      I’m sure for millenia, this has been pondered, debated upon and quite likely shelved due to general lack of consensus.

      I vote for the first;
      “I couldn’t give a r@ts @ss
      It just sounds better, doesn’t it?
      How could you “GIVE a r@ts @ss” anyway?
      How incredibly rare might one be to obtain?

      But then again, in order for the first to be valid, you would have to have a r@ts @ss in the first place in order for you to profess that the issue is not even worthy of this useless, disgusting item! Wow eh?
      You see the problem?
      I admit, its not easy. And so it remains.
      What do you think? 🙂

      • #2592127

        I couldn’t give a smaller …

        by absolutely ·

        In reply to The answer to all this is…

        if I was a … !

      • #2592077

        Rats arses are very easy to find, just go to the nearest

        by deadly ernest ·

        In reply to The answer to all this is…

        gathering of politicians and you’ll be knee deep in rats of various breeds, or you can go to a major garbage dump to find some cleaner types of rats, the cleanest are at your nearest drug testing lab.

      • #2591999

        The answer is an answer . . . . .

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to The answer to all this is…

        …..and the answer is couldn’t. You couldn’t give…..

        You can’t give that which you do not have. You could give something you do have. If you have no interest in an issue, you have no interest to give — you couldn’t care less.

        In this case, unless you do have an ample supply of rat’s asses, you couldn’t give any of those either.

        • #2591853

          But if you had some

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to The answer is an answer . . . . .

          then you ‘could’ give it. As in
          I could give a rats a$$, but I will not
          or
          I could give a ras a$$, but I do not care enough

          But then again, your way sounds better

      • #2591996

        But if you really want some. . . . .

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to The answer to all this is…

        …..rat’s asses, this particular KFC/Taco Bell has plenty.

        http://www.consumerist.com/consumer/rats/kfc-taco-bell-rats-gone-wild-raw-video-footage-239257.php

        And in this case, the only question is, do you want fries with that?

        Okay, there are two questions — supersize?

    • #2649055

      Vista is poor

      by gwa ·

      In reply to Is It OUTRAGEOUS or is it just ME?

      Hi, I have just bought new Toshiba laptop for work and found problems with Vista immidiatelly. Spent 8hrs trying to sort out with Microsoft Update etc and then ran out of time and patience. I dropped the machine off at specialsist to see if they could put XP on the machine but it seems that these new machines have been made in such a way that this is very difficult, mainly as the drivers which would make this possible are either no longer available or seem not to work ??.
      My only option now is to put this new machine on ebay and buy older XP laptop or Macbook. I’ve had it with Microsoft.

      • #3320235

        Before you do that, try loading the latest version

        by deadly ernest ·

        In reply to Vista is poor

        of Ubuntu or Kubuntu Linux as they have many generic drivers that often work. No guarantees, but it may save you losing money on the deal.

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