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  • #2225468

    Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

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    by Anonymous ·

    I had to send my Hp laptop back to HP again. This time for dead pixels on the display. The repairs had nothing at all to do with a hard disk failure. None-the-less, Hewlett-Packard reimaged my hard disk to the factory settings. While I backed up the data prior to shipping the computer, due to a bug in Vista that corrupted network files for which a patch has now been released, I found that my backups were useless and lost six months of work on a project.

    Under Federal law it is a crime to alter or destroy data on a computer without authorization to do so. It is the same in the state I live in (Utah). And while I do not know the state of the law in California where the repairs were performed, I believe that the law is similar to the Federal law and the law of my state.

    It is my belief that when a computer is taken or sent to a repair facility, that facility has no business touching the data on the hard disk except as absolutely required for the needed repairs (i.e. a failed hard disk or software that is corrupting the system). Even in this case, the data need not be destroyed. As an example, I have an E machines/Gateway laptop that the hard disk failed under warranty. Arima corporation, who performs Gateways service repairs, extracted all the data and programs from the failed hard disk imaged it onto a new HD and returned the machine as if the drive had not failed.

    Under criminal tort law a corporation is liable for committing criminal acts (unauthorized alteration or destruction of data). Under negligent tort, careless acts are not excused. I could present several legal theories as to why Hewlett-Packards actions are inexcusable. However, legal theory aside, I feel that because Hewlett-Packards actions in unnecessarily reimaging my hard disk cost me six months worth of work that Hewlett-Packard should reimburse me the cost of the lost work and the going rate of a custom install that it required to restore the computer to its needed working configuration.

    I would like to hear from the community, their various opinions on this action – Whether they feel a hard disk reimage was required by the repair facility, whether is is criminal in nature. What they feel about a manufacturer deciding thay want on the machines they sell and enforcing it during service. Whether is is even the manufacturers business how a person or business uses or sets up a computer, or even what data or programs are on the machine.

    I am also interested in hearing from individuals who have had their hard disks reimaged during a Hewlett-Packard repair who are also interested in pursuing class action litigation against Hewlett-Packard.

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    • #2619673
      Avatar photo

      First thing is I think that you agreed to this

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      When you accepted that the Warranty Repair was accepted.

      As for blowing away a HDD and re imaging it I’ve lost count of the number of times that a software problem has caused the hardware not to work properly. Now as far as HP is concerned or any other for that matter their first option is to blow away any existing Install and install a new image takes about 10 minutes and very quickly decides if Hardware replacement is required.

      I would do exactly the same thing as well at every opportunity because Labour is the most expensive thing involved in any repairs that you undertake. If you spend 20 hours recovering Data do you honestly think that the End User will be willing to pay for this? If they are silly enough not to perform a proper backup before they send in the machine they get exactly what they deserve. You loose everything that you had in place because no computer equipment is [b]Reliable![/b] Just think of it this way you currently have someone to complain about but what happens when your HDD fails and you haven’t a solid backup? Then I take it you would complain about the maker not supplying decent hardware right?

      Just last week I had a NB returned to me which was faulty the screen resolutions was dropping to 4 Bit colour after 30 minutes of running. When I applied a new image to the system it worked perfectly and was a software issue that resulted for some incompatible software being used.

      Now how many people would be willing to pay for that repair? It’s not covered by the Guarantee but the companies who perform this service do not claim it as a Valid Costing Job they just let it through the system and tell the end user that it is now fixed. The same thing could have been the problem with your NB and until the OS is returned to Factory Default there is no way of knowing otherwise.

      Somehow I don’t think that you would be any happier if HP removed the HDD fitted it to a USB Caddy and returned the machine to you with the spare HDD and a cost involved.

      Col

      • #2619254

        Agreed – no.

        by Anonymous ·

        In reply to First thing is I think that you agreed to this

        Hal, I specifically included a note that the hard disk was not to be reimaged. I would have rather incurred the cost than have to reproduce the work.

        Second, because HP enforces the MS agreement, I feel that releasing an OS that corrupts network data when synchronizing is the fault of HP as well as MS.

        Third, it is a crime, at least on a federal level, to alter or destroy data without authorization.

        Fourth, the HP tech notes state that the issue was reproducible in bios. Therefore, no reimaging was required.

        Fifth, HP offered to purchase the machine back. Of course, they wont pay what I paid.

        Sixth, after a week and a half setting the computer back up, I took two backups. One was with the backup software I use and the other with the Vista Business/Ultimate backup. I tested both, they are good.

        Seventh, the post itself indicates that it is possible and feasible, at a minimal cost, to recover the data without spending more time than it takes to reimage the hard disk. The program I use can do a bare metal restore in about an hour for 30+ gigs of data and programs.

        • #2619223

          Accept it sh1t happens

          by tim_seabrook ·

          In reply to Agreed – no.

          If i get to this situation, (I support 11 laptop users) Data is Copied not Backed up I don’t care how many DVD’s I have to use and quite often make two copies. It’s one of those givens re-image the hard drive to see if the faults are cured, you can be sure that there are fixes that have been over looked or just released.

          I’m sure HP said make sure you have a copy of your data backed up , and after all isn’t this more about your Backup software not doing what it should have ???

        • #2626404
          Avatar photo

          OK then lets take a look at the legal Aspects of not re imaging

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Agreed – no.

          With a re imaged drive there is no possibility of the repairer ever being put in a difficult position of having to report one or more of their customers for Illegal Activity. Once the Data is gone it’s gone and never to be seen again so you can not report what is never seen can you?

          That covers both the Owner and the Repairer weather you like it or not but it’s true.

          So if you are working on any level of Secure System you would never have returned the HDD as it’s possible to recover data off the empty platters if you have the time & inclination to do so. So it’s possible to recover all your data and still have a working OS as well. But the main problem here is that you should never have let your Data out of your Hands.

          Here once a HDD enters this place it never leaves the place as a working HDD, just in bits when it’s decommissioned, even then the platters are headed straight to a furnace to be melted down any guesses why it is so?

          The current going rate to recover everything that has ever been written to any HDD is about $450,00.00 here is my bill and you need to pay it before the NB is returned. My guess is that you will not accept the NB as that is way more than the cost of several new Ruggerised NB that are far better than the system that you bought.

          Now I build my own computers and my own NB’s as well so I don’t deal with any of the Big OEM Companies but I do know that they all advise and warn you of the possibility of a re image and they tell you to save your data before returning the machine. I believe that this also comes with the packaging as well so you really have no recourse to anything as you where warned.

          The last NB that I sold was returned 5 days after delivery with the screen going to the basic Display after 30 minutes of running and you needed to turn it off let it cool down and the start up again before you could change the screen resolutions. The cause some incompatible software was installed which caused the problem. Without removing this software there was no possibility of repairing the NB and it would have been returned exactly the same as it arrived with no solution. That is Unacceptable to me. If you where willing to cover the cost of a HDD you should have removed it and sent in a letter asking HP to supply a new HDD at your expense. Most people are unwilling to accept this however as they mistakenly think that they have paid a lot of money for the NB and they expect it to work no matter what they do to it.

          If your backup failed that speaks volumes of your backup software not anything of HP service arraignments. Personally I never fully trust any Backup Software and I always copy the data across to a HDD as I’ve seen way too many failed Backups over the years and know better than to ever fully trust them again and certainly I never ever trust any Backup performed by M$ backup software. I can almost guarantee that it will fail at some point.

          [i]I specifically included a note that the hard disk was not to be reimaged. I would have rather incurred the cost than have to reproduce the work[/i]

          First thing is that you didn’t make any mention of this but none the less why should HP believe you? They can waste hours attempting to get something to work only to find out that the problem is some installed software that the end user has installed. This is a Paid For Repair buy I’ve never seen these repairs actually charged for as it’s not worth the hassles involved.

          [i]because HP enforces the MS agreement, I feel that releasing an OS that corrupts network data when synchronizing is the fault of HP as well as MS.[/i]

          No actually this is your fault. If you didn’t ask for a M$ OS to be installed at some point it wouldn’t be an issue would it? Though to be fair M$ does produce second rate software that has no right to be used in any business.

          [i]it is a crime, at least on a federal level, to alter or destroy data without authorization[/i]

          It’s also a crime to be in possession of Kiddy Porn and HP in this case are not wanting to be in a position of being forced to report you and then being sued for following the Law. While you may not personally be interested in this many are so HP has to cover themselves in every eventuality.

          [i]the HP tech notes state that the issue was reproducible in bios. Therefore, no reimaging was required.[/i]

          I had exactly the same comments made to me with a NB that was recently returned but it was still a Software Related issue. So what why should any System Builder spend their money finding out that they have been provided wrong advice and then need to fix the system to the standard that they require? After all if you didn’t want the system fixed you would never have returned it would you?

          [i]HP offered to purchase the machine back. Of course, they wont pay what I paid[/i]

          Sounds like a great idea as you will not be happy with this machine and they will never repair it so you will be happy so you are better off without it.

          [i]after a week and a half setting the computer back up, I took two backups. One was with the backup software I use and the other with the Vista Business/Ultimate backup. I tested both, they are good[/i]

          Why spend so long setting up a Appliance? After all those is what these are sold as and are specifically sold as turn on and go now without any need to setup. If you want something different you need to come to someone like me who will custom build a machine for you and not give you an off the shelf machine that you need to constantly change to suit your needs.

          [i]the post itself indicates that it is possible and feasible, at a minimal cost, to recover the data without spending more time than it takes to reimage the hard disk. The program I use can do a bare metal restore in about an hour for 30+ gigs of data and programs[/i]

          Yes it’s possible but then again it’s possible to recover every bit of Data that has ever been recorded to any Magnetic Storage Device but who’s going to pay for this? I get $160.00 per hour base line so who pays my Labour? I would guess that you wouldn’t be happy doing this particularly on a new machine that has just broken as you expect it to work right?

          The bottom line was that you agreed to purchase a machine with a suspect OS installed and accept any short comings of that OS so you need to live with it. If you want something reliable you would never consider a Experimental OS and Software Load. Remember that Vista was only released on January 30 so it’s only seven months old and still way too new to be considered as Reliable.

          When you agree to get onto the Bleeding Edge you should expect to carry the can for poorly developed software and expect it to break. If you don’t accept this you would never have bought a computer loaded with Vista of any form.

          Col

        • #2626355

          Am I the only person who read that the repair was for dead pixels????

          by crap3 ·

          In reply to OK then lets take a look at the legal Aspects of not re imaging

          And HP told him that it was reproducible in the bios screen?
          Which says that the screen had dead pixels.
          So you don’t need to power the machine into the os.

          Why would HP even bother taking the extra
          time to re-image if they knew the os install had nothing to do with the problem?

          The only reason I can think of is that HP did to spite the guy because he specifically asked them not to re-image the drive.

          As for the backups, he never would have had to resort to the backups (one of which failed because of a Vista bug) if HP had listened to his request and not wated their own time (because they knew from the problem showing bios that a re-image was not neccessary)

          So again, I ask, “What am I missing?”.

        • #2626334

          No, we read it.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Am I the only person who read that the repair was for dead pixels????

          You’re not missing anything. As to why they’d image it for that problem, I don’t know. But the point is they are within their legal rights under the warranty to do so, and he was warned they might do it. He has no legal recourse. All he can do is take his business elsewhere and try to convince others to do the same.

          The tech who worked on the system is not the one who took the call, so I doubt he was acting spitefully. He probably works from a series of checklists configured for each specific problem, and the first item on the list is “Image the drive”.

        • #2626270

          Checklist.

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to No, we read it.

          I can scan and post the checklist. I promise you, the firs item is “failure could be duplicated” followed by “System board”, CPU link”, “DISPLAY”, etc. Reimage hard disk does not come until item 13.

          I would agree that it was not done out of spite except that I had had HP support personnel inform me in the past that if the machine had any other OS on it than the factory configured one that they would reinstall the OS. I typically tri-boot with Vista, XP, and OpenSuse.

        • #2626242

          I only theoretically aggree with you

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to OK then lets take a look at the legal Aspects of not re imaging

          Hal, we recently had a discussion about the issue of recovery of data, especially illegal data. I stand by my previous position. Unless the customer is paying for data recovery, the tech has no business mucking around in it.

          To cover another members response, I purchased the machine for the hardware, not the OS. In fact the first thing I did was departition the HD and reinstall Vista from an MSDN download. Why? To get rid of the crapware and spyware that the firms are so fond of installing. Then I spent considerable time configuring the system the way I wanted and the way I use it. I did this four months ago because the project the machine was purchased for starts Monday and I expected some problems. I placed Vista on the machine because HP informed me that if I removed it they would void the warranty.

          You ask why spend so long setting up and appliance? From my recent experience I found that even when you follow exact written procedures Vista does not seem to install the same way twice. I was trying to restore the system exactly the way I had it set up. I also spent some time trying to recover my backups. Funny too, they would test good, but when used they would report that they were unfit. When I forced a restore, much of the data was garbled.

          I have forensic programs that can recover data. I have always found them to be suspect and would not use them to recover past work.

          Hal, the offer of custom built machine is nice, my desktops I custom build to my spec. A laptop is another matter entirely, don’t you agree. For the most part, the hardware is not configurable.

          Finally, Vista is not bleeding edge; for every step forward, three steps are taken backwards.

        • #2626812
          Avatar photo

          Actually I would question the Legality of this statement

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I only theoretically aggree with you

          [i] I placed Vista on the machine because HP informed me that if I removed it they would void the warranty[/i]

          It’s not legal in the slightest bit or under any definition. If HP US is pushing this they need to be taken to court and loose.

          [i]I have forensic programs that can recover data. I have always found them to be suspect and would not use them to recover past work.[/i]

          After working for many years with Federal Police I would have to question your Forensic Recovery Tools as I have been working this area since 1974 and never had a problem in recovering data that was latter used in Courts as Evidence.

          [i]A laptop is another matter entirely, don’t you agree.[/i]

          No I actually disagree here as that is incorrect. While you are more limited in some hardware it’s still better building your own than going to a place like HP and buying what they are willing to sell you. Now granted I only work with the better stuff but I’ve yet to have a problem with either the Clevo or MSI Chassis that I use. While the Clevo are my preferred option they are also more expensive as they have TFT Monitors as apposed to the LCD monitors that come with the MSI units. But even then I don’t see any difference between these M’Boards and an all in 1 M’Board except the NB are better and have their own RAM for Video.

          Col

        • #2626730

          Thanks for the info HAL

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Actually I would question the Legality of this statement

          I have been looking for a while for MBs for laptops and have been having to settle for something close to what I want rather than what I want.

          On the forensic tools, I can’t speak for the AU court system or the quality of evidence they have to have. Over here it is a joke. There are convictions based on the testimony of an eyewitness who could not identify that the accused had a cast on his leg at the time of a burglary (yes the doctor and the hospital staff testified that they put the cast on the day before the crime) and in which the court excluded evidence that the eyewitness had a blown up poster of the accused posted in his business for six months before the preliminary hearing.

          But on the issue of forensic tools, you may have better tools or may be more trusting than I am when it comes to my own data.

        • #2626981

          Expect it to break?

          by mylittlemansanidiot ·

          In reply to OK then lets take a look at the legal Aspects of not re imaging

          I’ve never understood the mentality that it’s ok for a retail release of new software to not work properly simply because it’s new. I know it’s TO BE expected, but crippling bugs in an expensive piece of software are simply not acceptable, the whole Bleeding Edge defense is a total cop-out.

          As to most of the other points you make Hal, I agree. Whenever you return a computer product to a proprietary provider for warantee/guarantee repair, they will reimage the drive. This is a term of the warantee/guarantee, and it’s stated that you must have a VALID backup of any data. The whole “illegal content” is only a part of this. One of the other reasons these comapnies will do this is to cover themselves from any current software problems the user may have created themselves prior to returning the product, leaving them open to the “it was fine until company X rpaired it” scenario. The only way they can be sure they’re returning your product in perfect working order (or the working order it was sold to you in) is to reimage the hard drive, restoring the system to factory default. Even if you did include a note saying you specifically didn’t want the hard drive reimaged, chances are the note was missed, lost or simply ignored.

          If you really didn’t want the data lost you should have ENSURED your backups were good before sending the machine for repair. You should also never rely on a single redundancy. Multiple backups are your friend.

          One question, you lost 6 months of critical work? So you only backed up your data once in that 6 month period? Surely you must have and earlier backup. I know on critical, long term projects I backup once a week.

        • #2626923

          My backups

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Expect it to break?

          When I set a system up, I take a backup of that system. During the uses of that setup, I take a full back up weekly. During the week I take two incremental backups. After three full backups, I delete the oldest for the one I will be taking. The problem is that ALL the backups were corrupted. The backups were good at the time I took them and because of bugs I introduced during testing, I did a full system restore from each of those back ups on a weekly basis most often. The night I sent before I shipped the laptop I took a full system back up without rotation and did a partial restore to test it. When the machine came back with a new factory image and when booted, it synchronized with my network. I believe that this is when the corruption occurred.

          I hope this addresses your questions.

          I agree with you that all software should be free of major bugs and think the new software is a copout.

      • #2627142

        Not necessary today

        by hlhowell9 ·

        In reply to First thing is I think that you agreed to this

        Most systems can boot from a USB drive. The reasonable thing if software is suspect is to boot from a USB drive to verify the hardware and eliminate the software. If the system operates correctly, then call the user and tell them that the software is suspect and request instructions or information. This is a 10 minute check that is faster than reimaging the disk, anyway.

      • #2627012

        Col, you’re a moron…

        by raym444 ·

        In reply to First thing is I think that you agreed to this

        …and you obviously can’t read very well either. He said the problem had nothing to do with the HDD (which he would know once the repairs were done), and that he did backup the data, but the backup was corrupted by Vista. As for you doing the exact same thing at every opportunity, well that just tells me that you’re also lazy. There are numerous other ways to test the software tan to just wipe it and start fresh such as swapping HDD’s temporarily or…TADA…here’s a thought, try booting from a CD or other media that you know is good. (which would take no more than a minute or 2) There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to wipe anyone’s data until you have verified that the software was the problem and anyone who does, doesn’t deserve to be in this industry. I’m certainly glad that you won’t be touching any of my systems…ever.

        • #2626977

          Although long winded…

          by mylittlemansanidiot ·

          In reply to Col, you’re a moron…

          ..Hal’s post is correct at the heart of things. Yes, the problem didn’t warrant reimaging the hard drive, but HP specifically states in the warantee/guarantee that’s it is the users responsibilty they have their data backed up. This is a policy used to ensure HP incurs minimal costs when performing warantee repairs, as well as covering their own ass in the event there’s illegal data on the drive, or malicious software or user created problems. In this case, it wasn’t a REQUIREMENT of the repair to reimage, but it’s just the way things are done, and anyone sending a computer to a proprietary vendor should expect the same.

          Reimaging is actually a very valid option to repair a system, when required. You’ve obviously never dealt with home consumers, and seen some of the crap they do to their systems. Otherwise you’d have exactly the same attitude as Hal, and the prorprietary vendors. You could spend 20 hours sifting through crap only to find the warrantee repair you’re performing FOR FREE is the user’s fault because he installed some POS spyware infected free software. Or you could reimage the drive, and find the computer is running just fine. Let the user, who is EXPECTED to have valid backups, reinstall all the crap that broke the system in the first place.

        • #2626972

          On the contrary…

          by raym444 ·

          In reply to Although long winded…

          …I’ve dealt with hundreds of home consumers throughout the years and yes, there have been a few times when a total wipe and re-install was necessary. However, it is quite easy to create a new partition on the drive to move the data to before wiping. As for the spyware problems, I’ve cleaned dozens of drives from spyware and viruses without having to reimage the drive and can do it in about an hour to an hour and a half. The PC runs just as fast as when they got it and they didn’t lose any data. I understand that it is sometimes necessary, but to automatically reimage all PC’s that come your way without first determining it’s necessary is just plain lazy and very poor customer service…in my opinion.

        • #2626970

          Really?

          by mylittlemansanidiot ·

          In reply to On the contrary…

          Do you provide these services for free under your waranty repair service? If you do, you’re an idiot. The argument isn’t whether HP NEEDED to reimage the drive, that’s a given as it’s stated they will in the waranty policy. The argument is whether the OP has legal recourse.

        • #2626967

          Of course not…

          by raym444 ·

          In reply to Really?

          …but we’re not talking about cleaning spyware for free, we’re talking about reimaging the drive before any cause (including spyware) is identified.

        • #2626964

          No..

          by mylittlemansanidiot ·

          In reply to Of course not…

          …we’re talking about a very specific case of dead pixels on an LCD being repaired under waranty that states you better backup your data, because we’re wiping your hard drive. It’s not a matter of whether this is a good practice or not. If I sell you a car and say “Expect the brakes to fail at any time, and by the way, can you sign this document to the effect that I warned you of said future brake failure?” and you sign the document, then procede to drive the car into a brick wall, who’s at fault?

        • #2626915

          MyLittleMansAnIdiot

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Of course not…

          I never signed any document! Someone got that hair up their butt and everyone assumes it is true.

        • #2626830

          normhaga, you don’t have to sign anything.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Of course not…

          By returning the unit for repair under warranty, you implicitly agree to the warranty terms and conditions.

          I’m sorry you lost your data, and it was probably unnecessary for them to wipe the drive, but you don’t have any legal recourse.

        • #2626834

          We’re not debating the necessity

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to On the contrary…

          I think everyone agrees wiping the drive was unnecessary. Col, MLMAI, and I are saying the vendor legally had the option to wipe the drive under the conditions of the warranty. It’s lousy service, but legal.

        • #2626917

          On occassion…

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Although long winded…

          I repair a home users computer. I myself am very aware of just what a user can do. I do not look first to reinstall the OS; I believe this to be the lazy way. I first determine what the problem is and determine the course of action from there. If it is a virus, kill it. If the box has been rooted, remove the root kit and if the root kit cannot removed, then reinstall the OS. If the problem is a screwy program, remove it if I have to use the MS uninstall utility. Only when the system is beyond repair do I consider re installation a viable repair technique. I do not start with the attitude that the user is stupid even though they do stupid things.

          I have seldom spent more than an hour of my time doing this because I have more to do than sit around and watch a monitor. When I am done I use automated tools to clean the registry and defrag the hard disk. But then again, this is only my approach.

    • #2619559

      Acer lets you remove the HDD before sending back…

      by older mycroft ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      That way you can retain the HardDrive while the laptop is being repaired.

      However, what if the problem IS on your HardDrive. Presumably you would have your laptop returned to you and you would STILL have a faulty machine?

      • #2619253

        HP does not agree.

        by Anonymous ·

        In reply to Acer lets you remove the HDD before sending back…

        HP thinks you should return the entire system as it was purchased.

        I have already told HP that if the machine needs repair again, I am removing the hard disk and they can just deal with it.

        • #2626442

          You can remove a hard drive for HP support…

          by netscooby ·

          In reply to HP does not agree.

          I had to call HP for service on my parents laptop. Since the process had nothing to do with the hard drive, I told HP that I was sending the machine without the hard drive. They agreed. The machine came back fixed. My father put the drive back in and all was well.

          As for why they do it? I think some of these tech support people think that re-image is the first place to start. They want to make sure that no software or drivers are getting in the way. It is a simple way out (cop-out). But, it does put everything on a level playing field. Personally, I think it should be a last resort.

        • #2626424

          I send units to HP without hard drives all the time.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to HP does not agree.

          I have also sent them with a blank hard drive, although it was the same make and model that was originally installed.

          Be aware that exercising either of these approaches may result in HP being unable to repair the unit if the problem actually is caused by defective software or physical problem with the original hard drive itself.

    • #2626427

      You authorized it.

      by charliespencer ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      “Under Federal law it is a crime to alter or destroy data on a computer without authorization to do so.”

      When you returned the laptop for repairs you authorized them to wipe the drive at their discretion, whether it was necessary or not. It’s in the warranty. The help desk tech tells you they may wipe the drive when he gives you an RMA number. It’s in the paperwork included with the laptop mailer carton HP sent you.

      You wouldn’t be raising this issue if your backups had been valid. You’re trying to shift the blame to HP to cover for your inadequate backup procedures.

      • #2626403

        Spot on

        by tim_seabrook ·

        In reply to You authorized it.

        Your last comment sums it up realy, we all sit in IT in our ivory towers building our empires (well we do in the UK) and forget the first thing about making sure a backup works by doing test restores etc…

        • #2626311

          My $0.02

          by null.corey ·

          In reply to Spot on

          (Edit): Sorry. I thought I was in the root when I created this post. It wasn’t directed at the message I replied to.

          Why wouldn’t you format the drive before you send it in? Do you want those people looking at your data? Even if you aren’t surfing porn or hacking government computers, you should wipe it before you sent it anywhere. Have you read the articles about the Geek Squad guys recently?
          My brother had a HP laptop with a bad mouse button. I told him to ask them if he could remove the HDD. They said no. So I had him back the drive up to a desktop with plenty of drive space. External Hard Drives are a cheap alternative if you don’t have another PC. We just did a simple XCOPY with the hickorey switches. We verified we had backed up the necessary files (Favorites, PST, MyDocs, etc). We then wiped the drive and reimaged it before he even sent it to them.
          I’d never send my computer to a repair shop with all my data on it.

        • #2626263

          What I do.

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to My $0.02

          I back up the entire HD with Paragon Drive backup on a weekly basis so that I have a current backup. I place this back up on a network so that I can access the information from other machines if needed. When I send the unit in, I remove all network information and security related information and overwrite it with DOD spec. The I ship the machine.

          After this incident, I purchased a removable USB drive. After doing the standard backup, I now copy this data to the removable drive and unplug it>

        • #2626975

          No offsite or “hard” backups?

          by mylittlemansanidiot ·

          In reply to What I do.

          Wow, I can’t believe you only relied on a network backup of such critical data. You never thought to make offsite or “hard” backup copies?

        • #2626913

          True

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to No offsite or “hard” backups?

          My mistake; one that will not be made again.

        • #2626233

          I disagree with you…

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Spot on

          for the following reason.

          I do a fair amount of private and business software development. In any development cycle bugs create, sometimes unpredictable, problems. I routinely do a bare metal restore when I screw the system up because it is less expensive in time than to manually restore the system. So, the backups had been tested by use at one time and were known to be good at one time. I probably boo booed by unknowingly allowing Vista access to my network and the backups were then corrupted. When I do a restore, it is from a Linux based restore CD.

      • #2626367

        Palmetto is 100% correct

        by jayflex ·

        In reply to You authorized it.

        This is standard practice for any company that does computer repairs, from small mom and pop shops to the major manufacturers like Dell and HP. They all have it in their paperwork that they are not responsible for your data. Any repair shop is going to want a clean pc to troubleshoot issues. They don’t want to waste their time troubleshooting a pc that has viruses or tracking down configuration errors.

        Sorry but you don’t have a legal argument. You should never send a computer out for repairs without having your data backed up.

      • #2626230

        Try again.

        by Anonymous ·

        In reply to You authorized it.

        “You wouldn’t be raising this issue if your backups had been valid. You’re trying to shift the blame to HP to cover for your inadequate backup procedures.”

        You are correct that I would not be b**ching if the back ups had not failed.

        Discretion is discretion, but when applied without basis it is foolish and inexcusable.

        You assume to much about inadequate back up procedures. Read further posts.

    • #2626425

      I think they all do it

      by andyhassard ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      One of my colleagues used to work for Sony and they do it too. He tells me that it is to prevent putting them and you in a difficult position. He says the first thing they do is wipe the HD. What do you think would happen if they found: illegal software, illegal porn or anything else that is illegal. The first thing they should do is call the police. I understand that the majority of people don’t fall into this category but the procedure is there to protect the company too. If an MD of a large company sends his laptop in for repair and suddenly the Feds appear at his door he isn’t going to be too keen to continue the contract with the laptop manufacturer even though he is the one at fault.

      • #2627000

        You’re right about the law Andy, but…

        by raym444 ·

        In reply to I think they all do it

        …it shouldn’t even be an issue. I’ve been in the industry for over 20 years (before MS Windows existed) and in all of the repairs I’ve done, I’ve never had to open anyones files to troubleshoot. A tech. should have no business opening or viewing your data at all, as it’s not necessary in troubleshooting any problem…applications yes, data no.

        • #2626971

          You assume hidden content.

          by mylittlemansanidiot ·

          In reply to You’re right about the law Andy, but…

          Some people are not as smart as you give them credit, they have this illegal content in full view, such as desktop images, or links to obviously illegal software on thier destops. The precaution is taken to ensure a tech NEVER get’s the chance to see anything untoward. It has nothing to do with snooping around peoples folders.

          The whole argument is not whehter HP practive bad trouble shooting policies, it’s whether the OP has legal recourse, and simply put, he doesn’t. He agreed to HP reimaging his dard drive when he accepted the terms of the warantee repair.

        • #2626969

          Point taken…

          by raym444 ·

          In reply to You assume hidden content.

          …and I totally agree that there is no legal recourse here, but I still think it’s irresponsible to just wipe every drive that comes your way right off the rip.

        • #2626965

          I agree with that.

          by mylittlemansanidiot ·

          In reply to Point taken…

          If I paid you to repair my system and you reimaged the hard drive without warning me, or first backing up my data yourself, I’d be pissed. But we’re talking about a waranty repair, which state that data loss is a part of the process, and to have VALID backups of all your data. It’s on the onus of the customer to ensure any backups they do are valid.

    • #2626411

      That thing you signed…

      by jbarry ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      …probably noted that they can do whatever they want to your hard drive. I’d check it again.

      I just warrantied a Toshiba laptop for a broken display (someone closed a pen in the laptop). They insisted that the hard drive may need to be reformatted (Riiiigghhhtt…. 🙂 ) for the repair. In any case, I just took out the users drive and sent them an old BS hard drive with the machine.

      Bottom line, If you are going to have someone else repair your computer, prepare for the worst.

    • #2626399

      Their troubleshooting does not match the problem.

      by jpc1958_989 ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      I bought an HP mid-tower PC and it came with a DVD burner. It worked (burner) for about a month. In that time I had installed MS Office and used the PC for email, pictures, and some work. I contacted HP when the burner stopped “burning” it would read and play CDs and DVDs, but would no longer burn them. The error code (as confimed by their technician) was that the laser was bad. He would not authorize an RMA without me first using the HP recovery disc to re-image my PC. Now I had no way of backing up my data, pictures, emil, etc. with a bad DVD/CD but they demanded that either I do it or they would. I had an external DVD burner and tried it with the HP PC. It worked fine. I told that to the HP rep, but he was adamant that I re-image the PC. I requested to be able to take it to an authorized local repair center (they would not ship me a drive I could install an send them back the old one). They agreed, only if I re-imaged the PC. I “agreed” and waited two hours to call back, referenced my ticket number from the previous call, told the new tech that I had re-imaged the PC (but did not) and still had the same problem. They issed the RMA. I took the PC to the local, authorized independent service facility, and instructed them NOT to re-image the PC without my written authorization, and explained to them the symptoms and error messages, and my troubleshooting (heck, I even put a spare burner in the PC temporarily to prove it wasn’t the software – it worked with the other drive, then I removed the spare).
      The shop received the new drive from HP (it took over a month to get it – rotten buggers!) The shop installed the new drive and returned my PC to me, working just great without having to re-image the machine. HP is just copping out and taking the least time (time is money, you know) by re-imaging, believing that for every PC that is re-imaged without needing it, the overall time saved by the ones that do justify them deleting everything and starting over fresh. This is the sledgehammer method, not troubleshootng. They don’t troubleshoot, they wipe, then replace. This method takes less time and their trained monkeys don’t need any skills to perform the task any harder than it takes to push the button that gives them the bannana.

      • #2626393
        Avatar photo

        Exactly Right

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Their troubleshooting does not match the problem.

        And while you are not paying the price of Parts or Labour you have to play by their rules.

        What’s so wrong with fitting a replacement HDD and allowing them to install to that? It’s much easier and defiantly saves your data.

        Col

        • #2626377

          The cost of the drive?

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Exactly Right

          Most home users aren’t you and I, with spare hard drives sitting on the shelves. While the drive prices keep coming down, a home user may balk at buying one. Yeah, I know, it depends on how much you value your data, and how certain you are of your diagnosis that it isn’t actually a software problem.

        • #2626358

          Take the drive out 1st!

          by johnnyjenny ·

          In reply to The cost of the drive?

          HP has their own utilities to resolve issues. He should have taken the drive out. Maybe he didn’t know, but this can be a learning experience.

        • #2627125

          Johnny…

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Take the drive out 1st!

          You are exactly correct. The machine in question has two drive bays. Since I have purchased the machine I have been trying to find another 160 gig Sata laptop drive to fit in the second bay. I either cannot find one in town or online or HP will not sell me one. I have tried all.

      • #2626360

        Make Up Your Mind!

        by n4aof1 ·

        In reply to Their troubleshooting does not match the problem.

        You said: “Now I had no way of backing up my data, pictures, emil, etc. with a bad DVD/CD” then in the next sentence you said “I had an external DVD burner and tried it with the HP PC. It worked fine.”

        So actually there was absolutely no reason you couldn’t back up your data, you just wanted to be more pig-headed than the tech you were talking to.

        I agree that reimaging a drive or otherwise “restoring” a system to its “original” configuration is a major PITA, and usually both unnecessary and inappropriate, but the excuses we have seen here for simply not wanting to do a back up or for claiming to have done a back up but never having tested it are just whining.

        • #2627027

          I think the point was clear

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Make Up Your Mind!

          that if he was not a tech, he would have had no way to backup his data. Think of somebody that gets their system, knows pretty much how to run it when it works right, but nothing when problems arise.

          They call, boom, all of their data — gone.

    • #2626357

      Authorization for reimaging hard disks during repairs

      by gwconner ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      As a technician, I feel that the user’s data is sacred. we are paid to protect and when necessary, recover the contents of a customer’s hard drive. If it is necessary to image a hard drive the data should be backed up first and the customer should be contacted to provide authorization. With or without a law to require this, it is just good customer service.

      • #2626318

        Agreed.

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to Authorization for reimaging hard disks during repairs

        Imaging his drive unnecessarily was clearly poor service. But it was just as clearly legal. If he was truly concerned about his data he should have a) made sure he had good backups before he had any sort of problem; and b) paid a local shop to work on it instead of trusting to vendor support under warranty.

      • #2626801
        Avatar photo

        I Agree totally

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Authorization for reimaging hard disks during repairs

        Unfortunately the big companies like HP, Dell do not. While you are playing by their rules and they are paying for the repairs you have to accept their rules.

        It’s not the best or even close to Best Practise but that’s life.

        Col

    • #2626324

      When I lived in Scranton…

      by ipeters61 ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      I used to live in Scranton (moved to Connecticut in 2006), about 2 months after I got my HP Pavilion DV1000 (purchased July 2005), the system’s motherboard failed. I sent it back to HP, they told me they were going to wipe the HDD. When I got the computer back, the system was intact.

      One thing I would like to know, though, is why does HP only support Windows XP? I am running both Windows Vista Business and Gentoo Linux on my laptop these days, and HP refuses to support them. By the way, my copy of Windows Vista is real, it is an MSDN copy (everything straight from Microsoft).

      • #2626314

        They only support what they sell.

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to When I lived in Scranton…

        They don’t sell systems with Gentoo, and they didn’t sell DV1000’s with Vista. This isn’t unique to HP. No major manufacturer will support a system that isn’t running the OS they shipped it with. That lets them avoid finger pointing between themselves and the OS manufacturer. This isn’t even unique to the computer industry. Putz with the suspension and see if Detroit doesn’t void your warranty.

    • #2626310

      Read The Fine Print!

      by josh schwartz ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      As a former Laptop repair tech for a California company who handles exteneded warranty repairs for such busineses as Circut City,CompUSA ect. I know we make every effort to preserve the customers data whenever possible, however as stated previously in this thread the repair agreement does state theat we are not resposible for the data if lost and the end user is soley responsible for backing up the data before sending it in. Removing the hard drive before sending it in constitutes as a nonconformance and will prolong the repair of the machine, so it is not advised.

    • #2626264

      It is normal and standard practice…

      by mikifinaz1 ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      It is up to the owner to secure their own data. If the data was vital up front a system of backups should have been in place and used. If the data was vital the first step would be for the owner to send the machine to an establishment that specializes in retrieving data from hard drives first and then send the machine to the repair facility.

      • #2626239

        Current backups

        by Anonymous ·

        In reply to It is normal and standard practice…

        I do keep a system of backups. I only go back three weeks, which in my case means three full system backups plus incrementals every other day. They all failed, only after the fact, this week to be exact, did MS make it known thatt this could occur, and then only when the issued a patch.

    • #2626252

      Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      by rrashanreid ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      I think you should pursue this move by HP. I’m a computer technician and I’m living in Guyana, South America. I’m pursuing a Diploma in Public Communications at the University here. Our laws in this dear land of ours is quite different from other territories,as such I’m not aware of any legislation to protect data on computers because the Laws were not amended to suite the technological advances made in the country. As a technician I feel that a persons data is important to that individual and as far as it relies on the technician, the data should be saved. If however,if the technician is unable to do so,then he should not be held liable for loss of data.on the other hand if the problem is not hard disk then the company should be held liable.

      • #2626149

        B.S.

        by robert.bustos ·

        In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

        No “warranty” should have provisions excluding a company from using common sense. Why the hell would you format the HD for dead pixels?

        • #2627029

          because it may just fix the problem if it is SW related

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to B.S.

          that is why.

          However, one would think that the technician could have thrown in a different HDD to test it out on, without wiping the data.
          The only problem I see with this would be that they would need an imaged drive on site for many different kinds of computers.

        • #2627023

          The computer in question…

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to because it may just fix the problem if it is SW related

          has USB boot, external floppy boot, PXE boot, and if you breath to hard on the wrong button – self-boot. You might have to change suid numbers but that is all.

    • #2626177

      Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      by ourfriend722 ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      I totally agree that HP should have first gotten authorization from the owner of the laptop before taking up the process of re-imaging. As I understand the term re-imaging, meaning reformatting, which erases everything on the HD and then reinstalling the factory initial software. Its common practice for computer repair facilities of brand name computer company?s to either replace the hard drive with a new one, rather than to try to save the customer’s data by actually removing the hard drive disk and placing it into another operable hard rive shell. Computer companies have no regard or respect for years of work stored within an inoperable or malfunctioning drives. The private cost to salvage data from a inoperable dive is enormous and totally unreasonable. The disassembly of a hard rive is not rocket science by a long shot and the removal of its internal disk can be done with a special tool to separate the writing and reading arms from scratching the disk upon their removal. Of course I would not try removing the hard rive disk at home if one values the data in it, but it can be done with extreme care and then put into another operable similar hard rive shell, which computer companies do not sell as a spare parts order. The computer repair companies prefer not go through this, because it is simpler for them to just replace the drive within warranty then to do whatever they can to salvage the customer’s valuable drive data. I personally have had several times within a few seconds, lost lots of personal work data that took me years to accumulate. As much as I pleaded with the computer company to salvage the data without outrageously charging me for it, their only answer was that I would have to send it to a private repair facility that would do that. However then I would loose the warranty on the drive, because they only replace the drive with a new one. Once they have sold you the computer all they care about is if the malfunction of the drive is within their specify warranty info. And yes even though I no longer own an HP computer, I do agree that people should take an aggressive stand within class action litigation, so that other computer companies would follow in changing their service to suit the customer?s needs.

      • #2627095

        Disagree

        by the scummy one ·

        In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

        1st. Authorization was given
        2nd. placing the disks into another shell is not as easy as you make it out to be. It is expensive to do this and needs to be in a completely clean environment. small Dust particles can cause the HDD to malfunction.

        And tou add that they gave you an option to send it out, but you thought it was too expensive, so you thought that HP should just ‘do it’ without charging you for it. What do you expect, that they recover your daya at more than what you paid for the hardware? get real! How would that allow them to continue to offer HW in the future?
        I think that what you expect is a perfect world, and a perfect computer. But you should look around first, and determine which planet is reality.

        • #2627070

          On this I agree

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Disagree

          But in in the situation I am talking about HP could have put in a new HD and returned the old one to me. I would have payed for a new HD without question if the old would be returned because I knew that there was no HD problem, that it was a display problem.

          But the situation this member is speaking of would be exceptional and far beyond what I would expect.

        • #2627028

          That might be a good option

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to On this I agree

          to take, offer the old drive for data recovery all by itself. Because then they would be liable for ‘backups’ (which is most likely the reason that they do/did not offer it)

    • #2627018

      Live and Learn

      by rood_b ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      Unfortunately you ran into one of the harsh realities of sending a PC back to the manufacturer for repair. I’m sure they have a standard process that they put all the PCs through. I always tell any customer that unless it looks like an actual hard drive problem that they should remove the drive before sending the PC in. Dell used to be famous for doing this but it seems in recent years they have changed their ways. Now they instruct the customer to remove the Hard Drive before they sent the PC.

      Brian

    • #2626930

      Forewarned is forearmed.

      by mylittlemansanidiot ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      I empathise with your position, but I think you’re flogging a dead horse. Coupled with a completely seperate problem of a backup corrupted by a Vista bug, you’ve come to a disasterous end. At least you’ve learned something out of this, and as I read in one of your other posts here Norm, you backup offsite. That’s a valid lesson. Although I was suprised you didn’t have this redundancy already in place. I don’t know the timeframe, budget, mission, etc of your project, so I can’t comment on what I consider an oversight. Time constraints or budget constraints may have prevented you from implementing an offsite redundancy. Now, it looks like you’re making provisions for that. In a perfect world you wouldn’t have to, but prevention is the best cure.

      • #2626911

        I think every one thinks the horse is dead….

        by Anonymous ·

        In reply to Forewarned is forearmed.

        Except for two firms based in the San Fransisco area that so far think it is a valid class action case based upon the laws of the land.

    • #2626902

      Same thing here in Europe

      by pjjderidder ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      I had a similar experience a couple of years ago. Over here when you send in a PC for repair you need to sign a waiver that states that HP is not resposinble for the data, so legally there is nothing I could do.

      Similar to your problem the harddisk had nothing to do with the problem, but restoring the disk to its original state is standard procedure it seems.

      Fortunately I did have good backups …

    • #2626844

      HP is only partially correct- see my comments

      by jf555 ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      Hi, I am in the computer repair, service and maintenance business. I do not agree with HP’s rampart re-imaging at will, however, it is the end-user’s responsibility to make proper backups of the proprietary data in a retrievable format, no law in any state will protect the end user from benign negligence! I also do not agree with HP’s insistence that cerain marketing and game programs MUST reside on the HD in order for the OS to function properly. I had the occasion to remove the marketing and game programs and then rebooted, the OS would not load, called HP’s tech support who knew exactly what happened and basically they told me that the OS would not load as a “punishment” for removing the marketing and pop-up material form the new PC. This is the crux of the point, not the individual data retrieval. On the other hand,it is also a lot easier for repair facilities to determine if the malfunction is due to software corruption or true hardware failure if they insert a STD OS Config, however, this can be done with their standard HD, not necessarily yours!. Thus, there is some aspect of negligence here on the part of the repair facility.

      • #2626738

        Yes

        by Anonymous ·

        In reply to HP is only partially correct- see my comments

        This is why I do a clean install. I did finally get an HP install cleaned up by manually removing many of those programs and then found out that there were many items in the registry with the nohide and no remove flags set. Of course those entries seemed to have gotten lost.

      • #2626727

        yes they can use an alternate HDD

        by the scummy one ·

        In reply to HP is only partially correct- see my comments

        but then they would have to have HDD’s with images for each OS and each system that they put out.
        Different product #’s for the same model may also contain different drivers. Have you seen the product # list for most systems? Why not run a search at partsurfer.hp.com. Look up something like NC6000 (notebook) and look at how many product #’s are available.
        Each product # is based on a lot of different things. 1 being OS type, another being drivers, another for processor, and other for installed RAM.
        All in all, different product #’s may have different images as well. Keeping each and every different system image laying around to troubleshoot with can be a hassle.

        Don’t get me wrong, I think re-imaging happens way too quickly, but so is downloading virus/spyware/malware by end users.
        Unless you are willing to really pay for support and/or higher costs for a system, HP, Dell, and others really have no choice.
        And before you say yes that you will pay, I was not referring to you personally, but in general for ‘everybody’. If you look around, comps are getting cheaper, so is the service provided. Why is this? Because at large, the majority wants a new system that will last for years and be the fastest available, for less than $500

        Heck, I have been asked for a new company system that would be reliable and resistant to all virus and spyware applications and that would never fail. I told them they were dreaming, and if the system was available, I would probably have one.

    • #2626567

      DUH! Pull the HDD before you ship it for repairs

      by it cowgirl ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      I always pull the HDD for safe-keeping and confidentiality of the information. Sometimes I will ship a dead drive in it for replacement as well as the repair. Saves shipping the HDD separately.

    • #2648923

      Perfectly legal.

      by kkamberg ·

      In reply to Legality of OEM reimaging hard disks during repairs

      The instructions they read to you on the phone and that come in the box with the shipping labels tell you that it may be done. By sending in your computer, and by using your warranty at all, you agree to them doing this because it IS in your warranty.

      Right here:
      THE REMEDIES PROVIDED IN THIS AGREEMENT ARE THE CUSTOMER’S SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDIES. EXCEPT AS INDICATED ABOVE, IN NO EVENT WILL HP, ITS AFFILIATES, ITS SUBCONTRACTORS, OR SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE FOR LOSS OF DATA OR FOR DIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL (INCLUDING DOWNTIME COSTS OR LOST PROFIT), OR OTHER DAMAGE WHETHER BASED IN CONTRACT, TORT, OR OTHERWISE.

      Yes, read it: IN NO EVENT WILL HP … BE LIABLE FOR LOSS OF DATA. They can, and they will, reimage the hard drive, especially if they can’t get into the operating system to test the hardware they just replaced.

      You can try your class action lawsuit, but it WILL fail. They will not reimburse you for anything. They don’t have to, because upon purchasing the computer, you agreed to their warranty that stated that they cannot be held responsible.

      Not to mention- if you cared about your data at all, you would have maintained SEVERAL completely separate backup copies of your work, in several different formats.

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