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linux will never compete with windows in the home market

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linux will never compete with windows in the home market

bobgroz
linux is a business OS period. It is unix based and requires a lot of knowledge. The average person cannot handle it's quirk's.

Something is always wrong. Especially if you have current hardware. I doubt very much Ubuntu or any linux distro will support the ATI 5870 or 5890. You won't even get a screen. The display code will **** up, and personally I don't have the hours to spend trying to get current hardware working with linux.

Windows 7, while being more expensive, is LIGHTYEARS ahead of any linux distro for the HOME user.

Keep linux where it belongs, in the business segment. It will never achieve home desktop success. never.

sorry folks, that's just the way it is.
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    Tony Hopkinson

    Ubuntu is an experiment at an appliance user's OS.

    The rest of your argument is rubbish, for one simple reason. Go to your loacl highstreet dealer, try and buy a box with Ubuntu installed....

    Can't can you?
    Why is that do you think? If you want to know why Ubuntu isn't seriously competing in the home appliance market, follow the money...

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    bobgroz

    YOU prove to ME that UBUNtU supports a Raedon 5790.

    Can't do it, can you? I can't even get a desktop, for crying out loud. Linux is business only - and for hardware that is at least 1 year old if not older. Sorry, Tony, you're just plain wrong......

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    Slayer_

    Ubuntu supports a GTX295 no problem because nVidia makes drivers for Linux.

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    bobgroz

    i don't care about fault. all i know is linux isn't cutting it. you guys always blame somebody else. write your own drivers if the manufacturer won't. sorry, as a home user i need a computer display, and i don't give a crap whose fault it is. windows works, linux doesn't. therefore i use windows. i am not alone in this thinking. you linux heads just can't see the sun through the clouds. do you really think mr. and mrs. america cares whose fault it is because their desktop won't come up? NO! They will just buy the product that works. This is why linux will NEVER, and I repeat NEVER get into the home.

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    Slayer_

    I dislike Linux, who you calling "You People"?


    There are drivers for it, just install them, same way you do Windows. Linux will use base drivers so you can see what your doing, just like Windows. Then you must browse to the website manually and download and install the drivers OR just click the distros detect hardware, which seems to, pretty commonly, find the driver for you, give you options as to which version, download, and install it.

    Even wireless drivers seem to work good, I tried it, I had a wireless USB, it had both windows and linux drivers, I used the wrapper program to use the windows drivers, worked perfect, used the Linux drivers, worked perfect.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Redmond?

    Hello, anybody in?

    Now I'd be the first to agree that it doesn't matter to ma and pa browser who hasn't done what, but for those that would like to unf*ck the situation, appreciating the various motivations, is job 1.

    I don't give a crap what drivers Ubuntu has, it's security model is f'ed out of the box, so I won't use it. If that's a requirement I'll stick with winders and get the driver....

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    bobgroz

    see my post above about the situation. nobody cares whose fault it is their hardware doesn't work. people will buy what works..... PERIOD. And that is NOT linux in the home.

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    Slayer_

    You currently buy hardware that works for Windows, why not get hardware that works for Linux.

    To sum that up, avoid ATI, avoid anything software controlled (winmodem..... *shivers*).


    If you get yourself proper hardware, you will be fine.

    ****, even laptop wireless works now, they got this terribly named program that allows you to use windows drivers on Linux for those really really cheaply made laptops.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    A couple of distros didn't work for me, but SimplyMepis went on like a charm. You keep saying Linux, but you mean distro. Go to distro watch, look at the popular ones and you'll find one that will meet the hardware needs except for the oldest and newest kit.

    If you want plug in and go, windows is your best choice, it isn't mine or a lot of others. It's another choice, take it or leave it.

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    Deadly Ernest

    applies to hardware that's designed, from scratch, to work with that specific version of Windows. Change the version of Windows and that doesn't happen. Get an item that's plug in and go for Win 7 and then see how well it works with XP - usually it doesn't, and ditto with the reverse. That's why the little boxes now have the Windows version on the side, just under the Windows Compatible sticker.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Plug in and go also included pre-installation, which is THE big difference. If that was possible Bob wouldn't be posting.

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    Deadly Ernest

    a Linux that just turns on and go, he can get a couple from Dell as they have a few (five on my last check) that come with Ubuntu Linux pre-installed and all set to run. Sadly, they are only available off their web site, and they're hard to find on it, and also they aren't the top end machines they sell either.

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    Deadly Ernest

    that kowtows to Microsoft and builds their gear to suit only Windows and then doesn't write a driver for it to work properly using the Industry Standard Commands, and you blame Ubuntu - right, the blame for that is with Radeon not Ubuntu as Linux is designed to work with the Industry Standards, not some proprietary stuff meant to take control of your gear off you.

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    bobgroz

    see my post above. i don't care whose fault it is hardware doesn't work with linux. i don't care, and millions of other home users don't care. we just want our computers to work.

    go ahead and use linux with your moldy old hardware, i don't care. i'm sticking with an operating system that gives me a display with my hardware. i don't give a crap why it does not work in linux, it just doesn't. it works with windows, therefore i will stick with windows.

    if you guys think it's amd or ati's fault do something about it for crying out loud. this has been going on ever since linux hit the scene.

    my tv card never worked under linux, never. oh there's some complicated software out there that might work with my tv card, but i have to have a master's degree in computer science to MAYBE get it to work. And that's after hours and days of work.

    windows media center found it, installed the drivers, and works perfectly with my tv tuner card.

    i want to USE my computer, not constantly DEBUG it

    You guys will never understand. You are all brainwashed.

    Linux = business; Windows - HOME

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    Deadly Ernest

    you want it to because you bought a piece of equipment that has restricted usage. that's kind of like buying some real fancy car wheel and tyres, then insisting no other car is as good as the one you had to buy to put them on, simply because they fit that car.

    You have a graphics card which was deliberately badly programmed, and are now restricted to using Windows, all i can say is:

    Welcome to the world of MS locked in computing, as in Trusted Computing, and get ready to keep forking out money into the MS bank account while they take total control of it.

    please see:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing

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    bobgroz

    and DO something about it! Quit blaming Microsoft because ATI doesn't work on Linux. Why hasn't any of the Linux gurus written some drivers that work? You're not taking away MY freedom of choice when it comes to hardware with lame excuses about marketing, etc. I don't care. I just want my hardware to WORK.

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    Deadly Ernest

    to love Windows so much, I doubt you'll ever see that. Microsoft deliberately choose to go against industry standards, as a result anything that follows a particular version of Microsoft Windows is non compliant with the industry and other versions of Windows - that is a Microsoft created issue, and no one else's. When a hardware company chooses to follow Microsoft and design the Microsoft commands in at the hardware level, they abet the problem.

    With regards to your graphics card, the problem is caused by Microsoft and ATI, not by Linux.

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    bobgroz

    You blame ATI for not having drivers for linux, won't accept responsibility for this (not you personally, but those who put linux distros together) and then staunchly support Nvidia because they support linux. But wait! They have "closed standards" just like internet explorer!

    It's true. Google CUDA or PHYSX. Both are closed source - not available on any GPU license. What is it deadly support for a closed standards product, just because they write drivers for Linux.

    You're just another deceived Linux fanboy.

    You think the whole world would be happy with nothing but linux. That's because you spent time working with it, and now you can act like a hotshot techie on boards and stuff.

    you don't impress me as knowing very much. I figure you are a guy with little to moderate linux knowledge, maybe you have built a couple of PC's, that's about it. Nothing too special.

    You are so blinded. Anyone who thinks linux is ready now for home use is absolutely either a linux fanboy or off their nut.

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    Slayer_

    He's against manufacturer lock in.

    nVidia has put the effort in to make a control centre and working drivers for Linux.

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    jck

    You blame ATI for not having drivers for linux, won't accept responsibility for this (not you personally, but those who put linux distros together) and then staunchly support Nvidia because they support linux. But wait! They have "closed standards" just like internet explorer!

    1) ATI does have drivers for Linux. I provided you links to the driver as well as the whitepaper that showed you that everything through the 5890 was supported under Linux. So, that is wrong.
    (P.S. to #1 - Windows 7 did not come with ATI 5xxx series drivers either...)

    2) What does an open source driver have to do getting your video to work? ATI and nVidia both have Linux drivers for their latest cards which you have to download from their site.

    It's true. Google CUDA or PHYSX. Both are closed source - not available on any GPU license. What is it deadly support for a closed standards product, just because they write drivers for Linux.

    That would be because CUDA and PhysX are proprietary technologies in regards to the computational technology onboard the video card, not the driver interface to the operating system.

    ATI does the same thing with CrossFire and FireStream.

    You're just another deceived Linux fanboy.

    You seem to be just trying to stir the pot.

    You think the whole world would be happy with nothing but linux. That's because you spent time working with it, and now you can act like a hotshot techie on boards and stuff.

    Hm. Ernest has never acted like a hot shot. He usually just states facts.

    you don't impress me as knowing very much. I figure you are a guy with little to moderate linux knowledge, maybe you have built a couple of PC's, that's about it. Nothing too special.

    Unnecessary.

    You are so blinded. Anyone who thinks linux is ready now for home use is absolutely either a linux fanboy or off their nut.

    I guess I'm off my nut. I use Linux almost every day (whether self-loaded or VM) at home.

    Has worked perfect for me, and saved me about $500 in costs instead of buying Windows.

    Just because Ernest sees that you can do more with Linux than you realize isn't a reason to make mean comments toward him.

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    bobgroz

    It's all microsofts fault. It'sall ATI's fault, it's all NVIDIA's fault, everybody is at fault because Linux can't compete with windows for the desktop market at home.

    Please quit the whining. Either do something innovative about it, or don't post. Excuses, excuses, it's so wearing.

    And I'm not a WINDOWS lover, I love OPERATING SYSTEMS and spend lots of time with all of them.

    Linux's strengths are not for the home dekstop market. It has a decent web server and some other server services, and it can run on old moldy hardware, but to even imply it's better than windows for the home user is a statement made out of ignorance.

    Most of the people in this thread are liux fanboys and I just can't believe they cannot see the obvious. Thank goodness for those in this thread that have aknowledged the problems of Liux in the Home Desktop market. At least there are still some honest, technically alert people left in the linux community.

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    bobgroz

    Just to clear things up, Earnest or Deadly whatever his hame is insulted me first by implying I only buy computers with windows software pre- installed.

    That's a rip at a systems programmer who has installed more operating systems, probably 10 times as many times as him. Just follow the thread and read his rip at me.

    I'm not going to go whimpering away when I get ripped for no reason and lies are told about my technical expertise.

    And jck, if you really think Linux is a better desktop system for a Home User, you are just plain out of touch with reality.

    Linux is immature, breaks easily (especially when attemping changes), and has a gui that stinks to high heaven. A gui, by the way that was copied from Microsoft.

    Don't tell linux developed the start button with cascading windows. That has been a windows staple for years.

    Remember I AM TALKING ABOUT HOME USERS. PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WATCH TV ON THEIR COMPUTER, PEOPLE WHO WANT THE LATEST CAMERA'S AND SCANNERS, PEOPLE WHO WANT EASY APPLICATION INSTALLATIONS AND A WIDE CHOICE OF APPLICATIONS THEY CAN USE.

    AT THIS TIME LINUX FAILS IN ALL OF THESE AREAS. INSTALLATION OF PROGRAMS STINKS.

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    Neon Samurai

    I see other people acknowledging that Windows may not be the best solution for every user yet all of your comments come down to Windows being the one true way and anything else heresy.

    Your comment above starts out great explaining the issue between you and Deadly. You feel that Deadly is blindly attributing things too you which are not true such as being a new-comer to computing. You then turn around and insult JCK by blindly claiming that Windows is the only possible desktop OS for users and one is plain stupid for thinking any different.

    Lovely demonstration of the close minded opinions you claim to be railing against. It's ok for you to demand that everyone use your prefered desktop OS yet completely unacceptible if someone suggests cases where an alternative OS works juts as well. Since this is a black or white issue for you with no possible middle ground.. I don't see what purpose any further technology talk with you could possibly have.

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    Deadly Ernest

    the circle of Bob's reasoning and deliberate misrepresentation of some things. That's why I said goodbye to Bob back in my post of Feb first.

    http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=324730&messageID=3235932

    after his

    http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=324730&messageID=3235913

    where he also called me a nut. He kept saying that Windows always 'just goes on and works with no tweaking.' And goes on about how great Win 7 is. I've installed Windows, except Win 3.11 sitting on DOS 6, on thousands of machines, and I've never had a case of Windows goes 'going on and working.' It's always required tweaking and adjustment, and usually extra drivers and reboots - EXCEPT when it's a pre-built machine from a retail outlet, which is what the majority of the Home User Market are.

    He claims Win 7 'just installs and works straight up and is never any trouble.' Well, I've seen Win 7 installed on a dozen machines, all certified Win 7 ready or compatible, and it's never happened that way. I've seen people, and help them troubleshoot, problem after problem with Win 7. ****, we see regular threads here at TR where people are asking for help with Win 7 problems. All proving the 'just works' claim wrong. But none of that is acceptable. That's why I said goodbye, and no longer reply to Bob, although I keep reading every post in this thread, just in case anything interesting comes up. But since everything Bob's posting now is just a rehash of what he's previously said, except for complaint and insults about me, I've nothing to say to him. He won't listen or consider anything but what he's already decide on, no place for any discussion to actually take place.

    Anyway, have fun, some of the side discussions you've had with Sinister are very interesting, and I enjoy them, as well as find them useful.

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    Slayer_

    That's always a good solid (nutty) way to solve an argument.

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    jck

    Just to clear things up, Earnest or Deadly whatever his hame is insulted me first by implying I only buy computers with windows software pre- installed.

    Hm. Well from looking back, Ernest simply derived that your opinion was probably based in the fact that you haven't truly worked with Linux enough to really know its true ease of use vs that of Windows which you are obviously more familiar with.

    Insulting? Not nearly as much as you calling him everything short of an idiot.

    That's a rip at a systems programmer who has installed more operating systems, probably 10 times as many times as him. Just follow the thread and read his rip at me.

    Actually, I've been a programmer/senior programmer/software engineer/systems analyst/implementation analyst type for more than 15 years. I can tell you, I've probably installed more OSes/setup more drives than you, since I've been using PCs since about 1981.

    I'm not going to go whimpering away when I get ripped for no reason and lies are told about my technical expertise.

    Well, your ripping back does little to show it. Perhaps giving specific, technical examples of why you're right would prove your point better.

    And jck, if you really think Linux is a better desktop system for a Home User, you are just plain out of touch with reality.

    As I've pointed out, Linux is better for some reasons while Windows is better for other reasons. Both have their strong suits and weak points.

    Linux is immature, breaks easily (especially when attemping changes), and has a gui that stinks to high heaven. A gui, by the way that was copied from Microsoft.

    I've not had issues with changing hardware under Ubuntu or Kubuntu since 8.1x (or something to that effect).

    As for GUIs stinking, KDE's latest in Kubuntu...yeah I would say it isn't the greatest.

    As for it being copied from Windows? Transparent windowing that was in Vista and is in 7 were both copied from other OSes. The Trash Can (Recycle Bin) as well as the "X" for closing a window were copied into Windows...not from it. So, Microsoft has done their fair share of lifting ideas from others. They are no pure-at-heart innovator.

    Don't tell linux developed the start button with cascading windows. That has been a windows staple for years.

    Actually, Unix variants have had cascading Windows (that I know of) since the Curses interfacing libraries back in the 1980s. I worked with it in college. So, Microsoft didn't innovate cascading, tiling or otherwise with Windows.

    Remember I AM TALKING ABOUT HOME USERS. PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WATCH TV ON THEIR COMPUTER, PEOPLE WHO WANT THE LATEST CAMERA'S AND SCANNERS, PEOPLE WHO WANT EASY APPLICATION INSTALLATIONS AND A WIDE CHOICE OF APPLICATIONS THEY CAN USE.

    Most home users don't watch TV on their computer. Movies...maybe. TV? Not so much. Only if they miss a show, and usually nowadays they use TIVO for that.

    As for installing the latest hardware, I have bought cameras, USB flash drives, SSDs, a laptop, etc etc etc., within the past 6 months...and none of them have had an issue working with Kubuntu 9.x. None. Zero.

    AT THIS TIME LINUX FAILS IN ALL OF THESE AREAS. INSTALLATION OF PROGRAMS STINKS.

    I don't know what version of Linux you have, but you should look at other distros.

    You obviously don't have the luck with yours that I have had with mine.

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    j-mart

    It is what works for you in a given situation.
    As I do not use my home computer for games, windows with its requirement for constant attention to anti-virus to keep it usable, is way too much work to be worth the effort to be on my home network connected to the Internet. A standard install of Debian on fairly standard hardware works with minimal effort. I am not an IT pro and neither are my children, and having Debian as a basic browser / multi-media workstation only requires average intelligence and the ability to read instructions to get working well, and once set up will stay working for years with minimal ongoing time consuming maintenance, much less than required by a windows system.

    As I have stated, it is all relative to what you use your machine for, and for a significant percentage of home users Linux would be much better than the Microsoft product. An off the shelf Linux box marketed correctly to this type of home user could be a good thing, but as as the revenue stream, and how to get you hands on it, is understood by the home computer industry. Linux boxes running faultlessly for years and years do not bring in the regular cash as the Microsoft box with its constant need for attention and poor use of a machine's resources.

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    jck

    You mean 5970?

    Ubuntu should load a default ATI driver, and you can get the ATI Catalyst software for Linux from AMD's site.


    ATI Desktop Product Family Support
    The ATI Catalyst? Linux software suite is designed to support the following ATI
    desktop products:
    AMD Desktop Product Family Support
    ATI Radeon? HD 5900 Series..."


    https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/674/9206/0/www2.ati.com/drivers/linux/catalyst_101_linux.pdf

    That's the document to prove it.

    http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/linux/Pages/radeon_linux.aspx?type=2.4.1&product=2.4.1.3.42&lang=English

    There's where you can download your ATI Catalyst Software for Linux.

    You should be able to take it from there.

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    Slayer_

    ATI Catalyst control centre is a .Net2 program, which is why I hate it, what's it do for Linux?

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    bobgroz

    i hate to break your heart,, but amd or ati does not have anything to support the 5890 (single card with crossfire capability). You are wrong. Give me a screen shot proving you have this card working. I'll bet if you even DID get it working it took your hours of farting around to do it.

    I'll stick with windows for my home use, thank you. It is a good operating system, especially windows 7.

    you're blind hatred for microsoft has you blinded to the truth. Modern hardware doesn't work with Linux over 80% of the time. Also, there's the whole games issue that I won't even get into.

    I'd like to see a screenshot of somebody playing crysis under linux with an acceptable framerate and directx 10 support with depth of field capability.

    No, you can't produce a screenshot of that, because it ain't happening in linux. Not now, and by the time they DO figure it out, there will be new current tech out that won't work. Keep linux in the workplace for the professionals. That's where it belongs. Not in the home.

    I'm sure you all heard of the wallmart debacle with linux.

    They were selling computers with linux pre installed for the home user. It was a disaster. They have since withdrawn from linux, because nobody bought it.

    Maybe 2% of you out there enjoy debugging and troubleshooting. I don't. I just want to use my computer. Period. And that is NOT linux.

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    Slayer_

    If ATI cards are too dumbf**ked to even use common drivers for their own cards, time to change brands.

    All nVidia drivers are the same for current generations and many past generations. The same drivers for the gtx295will operate a 7200.

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    j-mart

    Than ATI have been in recent times and at present provide better drivers than ATI with much less drama. I used to prefer ATI cards but with much better customer support Nvida is my preffered card now.

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    Deadly Ernest

    the Microsoft and ATI proprietary stuff. Your choice, and you have a right to make it, but that's not a fault of Linux.

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    Slayer_

    Many many game engines are designed to use nVidia's API and even more now to use PhysX.

    ATI lost that race badly, they never even left the starting gate.

    ATI is so bad now, to make any changes to your video card setting, you REQUIRE .Net2 to be installed. It's like they never thought anything through.

    I am currently using an nForce board with an AMD processor and nVidia graphics, the power and stability it produces is impressive. I can do up to a 20% overclock with no stability issues or heat issues, and the tools work both in Windows and Linux. Both versions are on the mobo CD.

    I used ATI a long time ago, the "Composite" setting and "Gaming Mode" was particularly nice, it produced great results in the CRT days, but now, it's just pointless.
    For nVidia, to supplement those two things, I use RivaTuner, can't even do that with an ATI card anymore. So if game decides to run in 640 x 480, it will drop the refresh rate to 60hz and thus, slide the displayed picture off to the left side of my screen. (Composite screen kept your screen centred, always, Gaming mode kept your refresh rate at max)


    I'd like to end this message with, the final choice of video card brand is up to each individual to decide based on their needs.

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    jck

    Look to all GPGPU / CPU makers to institute OpenCL.

    I just hope it ends up being as good as it sounds. If so, I might go from client/server into programming for those.

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    Slayer_

    It solves the issue of coding on other platforms, but really, that was never much of a problem anyways. I think it's still the DirectX stupidity. Why game engine programmers continue to use such a crappy API is beyond me.

    OpenCL "sounds" like a CUDA replacement, not a PhysX replacement. That's how I read the wiki anyways.

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    jck

    OpenCL is an effort to develop cross-processor, where as CUDA is designed to take advantage only of parallel computation on the nVidia GPU platform.

    That was just my take on it tho. I didn't get to read all the white papers and such.

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    Slayer_

    What does that mean?

    I am only a simple solutions programmer

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    jck

    nVidia is developing their own GPGPU parallel architecture for implementation.

    ATI has taken to working with the OpenCL implementation, which was handed off to and is managed now by an independent group that is working between the GPU makers and some CPU and embedded processor makers to develop a programming platform that will provide a common framework for parallelism on various processing hardware.

    At least, that's what I understood.

    I really would like to see all the processor makers play nice and adopt some sort of standard for parallelism so that we can benefit from it. Otherwise, you get all the hub-bub involved with having to choose a video card based on what games you play, what OS you run, and how the hardware performs with them.

    It's just a wait and see thing now.

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    Slayer_

    They have a good habit of retrofitting old cards with new drivers for new features and new technologies.

    Although admittedly, I am uncertain as to how ATI handles existing cards when they release new technologies.

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    jck

    I have bought nVidia for years and years.

    When I built my new gaming rig, I got 2x 5850s from ATI. Although the initial driver was a bit flakey, the 9.12 update fixed pretty much everything.

    As for backward maintenance, ATI Catalyst and nVidia Control Center are pretty much the same thing. I think they both pretty much quit working on old old drivers at some point, but my 7000 series nVidias still get new OS support just like my old ATIs do.

    Although, I don't think they make Win 95 or 98 or ME drivers for any of the new cards. lol :^0

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    bobgroz

    then I'd be walking into closed source code with Nvidia's push for CUDA and PHYSX. I thought you guys were against closed source?

    Hmmmmm. There's some serious psychosis going on around here. At least very much confusion. I think anyone reading this thread would say...."Typical Linux BS."

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    Slayer_

    I make several free closed source programs. I can't be against them.

    Open source != Free

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    jck

    CUDA is nVidia's computational parallel model.

    PhysX is a middleware SDK for physics rendering onboard rather than in the game software.

    PhysX is available for Linux. However since it is a proprietary software pertaining to the processing for the video subsystem, it is hence *not* part of the interface to the OS and not a "driver".

    CUDA is the parallel computation in the GPU. Therefore, it is not a driver either.

    Needless to say, neither are PhysX is a SDK and you should be able to program against it openly.

    CUDA is their hardware architecture and probably has open interfaces for Linux drivers to program calls to it.

    The Linux driver source are probably somewhere out there.

    Have you gone and looked for them?

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    Slayer_

    That's the first time I've ever heard of this.


    PhysX closed source???? Its a freaken SDK. You want to suggest changes? Email nVidia.

    I take it you have never seen this then.

    http://www.nvidia.com/object/unix.html

    And even better,
    http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_opencl.html

    Understand Cuda's purpose now? nVidia wants Linux to succeed, they realize it would be a better gaming platform.

    And can you believe it?
    http://developer.nvidia.com/object/physx.html
    PhysX is free to both commercial and non commercial developers!

    Can it get any better?
    Actually it can, there are already some development platforms designed to encapsulate all the "hard" parts with graphics programming.

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    bobgroz

    Are you telling me that Linux runs the latest applications - the latest games in all their directx10 glory and the latest hardware properly? That's not rubbish, it's the TRUTH.

    Geez what does it take to make fanboys see the obvious.

    Forget about money, politics, standards, vendors not writing drivers for linux, the lack of competitive applications,

    Those arguments STINK. If Linux ever wants a real piece of the desktop the distro producers and programers will have to meet those challenges with technical ability.

    The days of complicated installs (an install can be an rpm, a direct compile, or a debian type install), talk about no standards, Linux can't even get standards between it's distributions! Red Hat uses RPM. Debian apt get. Some software gets compiled with .configure, make make intstall (and then there are all the dependency problems)

    Add to that the new hardware doesn't work.

    It's not "follow the money" it's "follow the lack of standards and follow the problems" I'd be willing to bet half of the software that comes with any linux distro that you can install - will require quite a level of expertise in linux to get a completed install.

    In windows you don't have to worry about any of that. Just double click the .exe file and your software is installed.

    Also, I have never bought a piece of hardware that did not run on windows and I have been buying hardware and putting together machines for 20 years.....

    Your "follow the money"is hogwash.Linux isn't in the home because it's terribly broken in many places....and requires someone with pretty extensive knowledge of the OS to get things working properly. And that knowledge takes some time to achieve, plus you must have basic talent with computers. That is not the average home user.

    Money has nothing to do with it. If Linux would fix all the bullcrap standards within itself, install programs easily, and run current hardware (those are all issues that COULD be achieved with some smart people), then, perhaps it would be better for the home user.

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    Slayer_

    Perhaps the great Linux pitfall is because the word "Linux" got used. Because now it is used to describe every OS that is based off the same kernel. A grave mistake.

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    jck

    Two words and one decimal number, bobgroz:

    Kubuntu Linux 9.4

    BTW, Windows 7 Pro x64 didn't work too well with the ATI Catalyst 9.12 on the 5890 either.

    They had to issue a patch. What went wrong?
    Seems the venerable Windows is not so great after all.

    BTW, Kubuntu 9.4 works perfectly fine with 2 5850s in Crossfire. I know. I have a machine running that config :)

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    bobgroz

    Mr.and Mrs america don't have your expertise at setting something like that up. I'd ask you to be honest and tell me how many hours you spent to get it to work. By the way, do you get all the direct 11 features in your games? How about depth of field? I highly doubt it. Probably you might get a desktop, but you are sacrificing all the eye candy that really makes the game look hot under windows. Spend the extra money on an oem copy of windows 7, you'll be much happier with your cards :)

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    jck

    a) worked on and off with Linux since the early 90s in college. I'm no guru, but it's not hard to learn (especially compared to 1990s Linux) to use *Ubuntu distros.

    b) Setting up was nothing. I loaded Kubuntu, it loaded default drivers for the ATI chipset detected, I booted in, loaded the Linux package from the ATI site.

    c) I don't know if DX11 games work in Linux, cause I didn't try to go get any that featured it. But, I would assume their Catalyst center exercises those features their cards/drivers are said to employ on the Linux platform. And as far as I am aware, DX11 is a Microsoft-dependent featureset.

    I think perhaps through Wine or some other interface it might support DXn instructions, but I believe natively in Linux it will support OpenGL2.x and 3.x.

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    bobgroz

    I think not. They just want to insert the DVD, install the game and play. Period.

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    Hm

    jck

    When you installed Crysis the first time, did you have to set up DX10?

    I've seen tons of games and video management tools that would run you through the DX install.

    Linux could be made to recognize PC-based software and auto pre-load Wine.

    Besides, I remember reading somewhere that some distro of Linux now came standard with a PC environment emulation built in.

    So, it's not a requirement anymore. It's now becoming a standard feature.

    Like I've said before, bobgroz. Linux is not as backward as you might think, even though MS did have a 12 year headstart on Linus Torvalds.

    Give Linux another 12 years, and I bet MS won't have 90+% of the market anymore...kinda like they don't have the majority of the webserver market anymore. :)

    Oops! Linux and Apache ftw! :^0

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    Slayer_

    In both Mandriva and Mint, I dbl clicked an EXE and it ran, no config required

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    jck

    I might have to look at changing then, if Kubuntu 10.04 doesn't have it automatically.

    I'd love nothing more than to run Shadowbane on Linux with their OpenGL mode whenever the Emulator gets online. :)

    I use Mint on one of my old boxes. It was a good distro.

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    Deadly Ernest

    many now work as follows:

    1. You select WINE in the package manager to be downloaded and installed.

    2. After installation, you select an .exe file and click on it and it automatically runs in WINE.

    3. If you wish to fine tune the operation for WINE for the application involved, you open the WINE config file in the menu list and personalise the Windows settings by adding the application and then selecting the version of Windows you want it to run as, then set up things like display size etc.

    If you don't personalise it, WINE will take a few cycles to evaluate the best version of Windows to run the application in and just run it.

    NB: not ALL distributions work this way, but many now do.

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    jck

    Between 8-10 hours work, 1.5-2.0 hours driving, plus having to maintain the house myself...I have no social life and little fun anymore.

    That's why a career as a groundskeeper picking up trash with a stick that has a nail in the end of it...is sounding really good right now.

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    bobgroz

    I don't think so. Check out depth of field on a Windows 7 machine playing crysis. It will **** you away. Linux will look like an old 800x600 display of the game (IF it even runs) next to windows 7.....

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    seanferd

    If it were written for OpenGL, which Windows used to use, mind you, before MS could come up with something closed and proprietary, it would run just fine.

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    bobgroz

    like it or not directx is here to stay. it's up to the linux guru's to do something about it. get directx functionality in linux. code as a module or into the kernel. It's a damned fine api, it's matured and games look fantastic with it.

    Have you played the latest batman game? It's a pure joy to play. I smile every time I play it. That game would never run on linux, and it's one of my favorites.

    I guess you want me to give up all that directx goodness so I can play tux or something like that.

    Cedega should be included free as part of any linux distro.

    At least you could play SOME games. Forget setting up wine for games, cedega should do that. Linux needs more forward thinking like cedega. They take the existing "under the hood" setup and make it very easy for the end user. What home user, non IT person is going to set up wine?

    Nobody....

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    Slayer_

    Oh, you've done game programming have you?

    Then you must know, DX9 has been holding us back for a long time. DX10 is a good improvement, but it only brought the performance to that of what OpenGL had accomplished in what, 2005?

    Between OpenGL and OpenCL it would be almost a simple "Find and Replace" to convert a DX engine to an OpenGL engine and make it closer to cross platform.

    To this day, OpenGL can calculate ~40% more points in 3D space every second over DX10.
    What this means is a game on OpenGL could have denser forests, or more objects on screen at a time.

    About the only DX technology that was any good was DirectDraw. As far as I know, for simplicity and speed, it is still the fastest 2D rendering technology.

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    Neon Samurai

    .. right after you tell me about how you installed Aqua on Windows.

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    jck

    Um...
    VMWare Player
    Linux Image File
    Yay! :^0

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    bobgroz

    Tell us the exact steps you had to go through to get it working....I'd bet it was more cumbersome than having the same setup in windows....

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    jck

    Load the OS
    Reboot
    Install drivers from CD (Windows only)
    Go online
    Get latest ATI driver/Catalyst software
    Install the package
    Reboot
    Crossfire goodness


    Seriously, bobgroz. Linux is far better than you give it credit for.

    And as SinisterSlay said above, OpenGL 3 rendering is far more efficient than DirectX 9, 10, or 11. The only reason DirectX is more prevalent is because Microsoft hammered their way into being a practical monopoly.

    As soon as game makers see a large enough market in Linux, games will start to migrate that way.

    OpenGL is easier to develop for anyway.

    OpenGL is a cross-platform standard. Same for all OSes in which it's implemented.

    DirectX is only Windows-native, and requires middleware (basically) to interpret the DirectX to the other OS's graphics standard...which slows down things some. Middleware always does.

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    Slayer_

    Hellbender anyone?
    Windows 95 and direct X was awesome.
    3dFX was the only contender, and it was limited to voodoo cards.

    Glide was too late out of the starting gate.
    Now, OpenGL has the fastest car on the track, but no one to drive it, a team of mechanics without drivers.

    I believe if Nix devs got together and started modifying or making new game engines in OpenGL and sold them (cheap) to game developers, we could see a very quick uptake in OpenGL, and then, Linux.


    On a side note, I can use Mint to play Red Alert, a Win 95 only game. But its glitchy as ****. I crashed Mint horribly 4 times in 1 hour. Sometimes it just seems to forget to limit the framerate...


    Gonna try Populous next, but trick is, my Mint install is on flash drive, so not much space. If I can get this perfected, Mint or another nix will definitely be on a boot for my machine so I can play some of those great old games.

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    Neon Samurai

    In windows, I had to go to the nvidia website for the latest driver pack, download it and run setup.exe. I then had to press OK and Next a few times while confirming various applicable settings.

    In Debian, I had to go to the nvidia website for the latest driver pack, download it and run setup.sh. I then had to press Y and Enter a couple of times while confirming various applicable settings.

    In both cases, I then restarted the system having both OS come up perfectly and pretty. Technically, I rebooted the entire Windows machine and restarted only X without rebooting the entire Debian machine but the effect is the same.

    With Mandriva the initial install wizard goes "oh, you have an Nvidia, should I use the open drivers or nvidia's provided closed drivers?". Selecting either worked but Nvidia's closed driver worked a bit better at that time. Either way, it was a simply option during initial install. After install, it was a simple option in the control-panel.

    With Debian, I also had the option of installing an open Nvidia driver from the libre only repositories or the Nvidia's binary driver packaged specifically for debian from the closed source repository. This was done simply through the package manager and would be equivalent to getting an Nvidia driver from Windows Update.

    I'm not seeing a drastic difference between installations on any of these platforms.

    So, what distribution is giving you such grief with which Nvidia card and have you bothered to try the Nvidia provided driver package?

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    Slayer_

    Now that I have installed drivers in Mint.

    open start menu, type video driver, it took me to driver detection, which popped up 3 possible choices for a video card driver and a "Recommended" one. I chose the newest version, it said installing. Done, restart computer.

    I didn't even need a web browser or need to know what my video card was or anything.

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    Neon Samurai

    Hopefully the Mint developers keep up the good work. They have so far so no reason to expect otherwise.

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    Slayer_

    That's a proper procedure I could give over the phone. Systems like WebEx would go out of business if everything was that easy.

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    Neon Samurai

    You can always reach in by ssh and fix by hand for a client. I've done complete server and desktop installs needing only to talk a local tech through the most minimal install.

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    Deadly Ernest

    the Unix / Linux model of a decade ago, except they added a some weird graphics to the graphics user interface. There are about 100 time more computers out there running Linux / Unix than there are ones running Windows - what you don't see is that Linux / Unix have the majority of the server market and the embedded system market is there's down pat. The desktop market is mostly Microsoft Windows simply because of the predatory marketing processes of Microsoft with the main retail makers of PCs, and the average user just wants to buy something in a retails store.

    SimplyMepis Linux is much better than Win 7 for ease of use and security, as is the case with most Linux distributions. Some have lowered the security down to the Microsoft level in an attempt to get the market that isn't concerned about security.

    As to drivers, blame that on the hardware makers who do NOT design gear to work with Industry Standard Commands, but design it to work with a specific version of Microsoft Windows Commands. Linux is designed to the Industry Standards and all hardware (no matter how old) that is designed to Industry Standards just plugs in and works.

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    IC-IT

    Your statement may have left out the word server. ;-)

    There are about 100 time more computers out there running Linux / Unix than there are ones running Windows

    Perhaps servers but definately not computers.

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    Deadly Ernest

    even cars made and sold in the last decade or so have a built in computer, with them running a variant of Unix or Linux; all the household goods with programmable content have a built in computer running a variant of Unix or Linux - in most cases; cell phones, fancy watches, e-readers, GPS devices, etc - most of these have Unix or Linux as their base operating system.

    The ONLY place where Microsoft is currently outdoing Unix and Linux is retail desktop PCs, and that's solely due to their predatory marketing practices and deals with the major manufacturers of retail PCs.

    In the past even Microsoft used Unix and Linux servers to run their own web sites, at times, simply because the Windows Server software wasn't up to the job.

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    bobgroz

    I don't argue with you on the benefits of using linux as a server. I argue with you on trying to make it a desktop for the home user. It's too complex for mr. and mrs. america, and honestly windows is a damned good operating system for home use. I love windows 7. I also love playing with hercules running an operating system that linux could not even tie it's shoes - OS/390 - now known as Z/OS. Now THERE is a server. An IBM mainframe running Z/OS. Western civilization would collapse if Z/OS went away. All the linux in the world ain't running the military the big fortune 500 companies, the electric company that puts your lights and gives you the chance to even run a home computer.

    Linux is a good server for small to medium business needs, but Z/OS with it's MVS core does the heavy lifting and keeps america running.

    Unless you are trained you can't even be in room running the stuff I'm talking about.

    No, Linux is not the end all in computing. It has a niche, but that's it. And that niche is not mr. and mrs. america's home. Don't force it to be what it's not. And quit blaming marketing, etc. for the problems.

    This reminds me of the Vikings demolishing Dallas a couple of weeks ago. The Dallas players were upset because Minnesota went for an extra score to really crush them. They felt it was "unsportsman like". I liked what the announcer said. If you don't like it, do something about it.

    That's what I have to say to everyone who thinks linux should be in the home. Quit making excuses for Microsoft's marketing, etc. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. INNOVATE. MAKE IT BETTER. QUIT MAKING EXCUSES.

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    Deadly Ernest

    over the last few years I've installed a number of versions of Linux on systems for home users simply because they can't do a damn thing on their new computers because they came with (in their own words) 'That garbage Vista' or 'This rubbish Win 7' - they all say 'Nothing works the way it used to and I can't find or do anything.'

    Depending upon their own personal preferences, I've installed either SimplyMepis Linux, PCLinuxOS, Kubuntu, Ubuntu, or Fedora when they didn't have the Win XP disc from their old computer available to install Win XP on the new computer, or when they couldn't find drivers for some of the hardware on the new computer.

    Most of these are older people who want it to 'just work' and it does, NOW.

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    bobgroz

    I'll bet they call you - for anything they need to change.

    You know your linux, but that still doesn't make it the right choice for the home desktop. Windows 7 is a very GOOD operating system. Vista stinks, I'll admit that, but Microsoft atoned for it's sins with 7. I use it along with Mac OSx for all my home needs. Never have any problems.... Just pure computer bliss....

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    Deadly Ernest

    than I do in Linux - but you'll get that with any system as there are people out there who have trouble changing the channel on a DVD recorder.

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    bobgroz

    that is cruel you put linux on a home user computers.

    Windows 7 has rave reviews. It is an excellent operating system. Small footprint. Very easy to use. I love jumplists and libraries. Media center is great. The supplied ISO writer makes burning ISO images a snap.

    The mouse gestures for the OS are very nice as well.

    Honestly, deadly, you're the only person I've ever heard that says windows 7 is garbage. You are blinded either by hate for microsoft, or you get off showing your mediocre technical skills to newbies.

    Sure if you installed linux for some old farts that only want to browse the internet and check email, Linux will work. I just hope they don't buy the newest digital camera, or printer, or see something in the software manager they like, only to have a crashed install. Honestly I'd bet HALF of the stuff you see in the linux install manager won't install properly. There will absolutely be dependency problems.

    Please do the right thing and give them windows 7. I'm sure you had a big part in influencing their opinions.

    Why is windows 7 getting rave reviews?

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    Slayer_

    I've been called out of my computer repair retirement to clean some super virus. Apperently its in a shop, mission critical files and computer, and apperently the designer, is also an avid web browser.

    If he doesn't require any windows based programs, he's gonna be getting Ubuntu. But just in case, I am trying to put back together my old toolset.

    Got alternate browser, got Avira and updates, got starter and whats running, oops forgot anti malware, need malware bytes and spybot...
    I got nix CD's, Knoppix, ubuntu, Mint and Hirens.

    Could be trouble if hes using Vista or Win7 as I don't have install media for either OS.

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    jck

    that is cruel you put linux on a home user computers.

    His users have a choice.

    Go to Best Buy and see if GeekSquad will put Linux on for free on that new HP or Gateway.

    Windows 7 has rave reviews.

    It also has not-so-rave reviews.

    It is an excellent operating system.

    Excellent? No. Good. Yes. Better than Vista? DOS 3.3 was better than Vista.

    Small footprint.

    Absolutely wrong there. Win 7 has an even larger footprint than Vista.

    Very easy to use. I love jumplists and libraries.

    I've found using Win 7 not as easy as using Vista.

    Media center is great.

    Windows messed up Media Player after Version 9.

    The supplied ISO writer makes burning ISO images a snap.

    I've been burning ISOs easily with several free apps for 6 years now.

    The mouse gestures for the OS are very nice as well.

    I noticed that if my finger rolls too much while it hits the mousepad, I get that weird icon. Maybe that's a gesture. It's annoying.

    Honestly, deadly, you're the only person I've ever heard that says windows 7 is garbage. You are blinded either by hate for microsoft, or you get off showing your mediocre technical skills to newbies.

    Ernest obviously like Linux better.
    Ernest obviously is highly intelligent and knowledgable (and patient for putting up with your taunts)

    Sure if you installed linux for some old farts that only want to browse the internet and check email, Linux will work. I just hope they don't buy the newest digital camera, or printer, or see something in the software manager they like, only to have a crashed install. Honestly I'd bet HALF of the stuff you see in the linux install manager won't install properly. There will absolutely be dependency problems.

    Oh jeez.

    My Canon digital camera plug and played with Linux just like it did Windows.

    Linux actually loaded the Wireless-N driver for my network card, where as Windows XP and 7 both required a disc.

    So, Windows 7 being latest and greatest still didn't have drivers for new hardware that Kubuntu's latest release did.

    Please do the right thing and give them windows 7. I'm sure you had a big part in influencing their opinions.

    I would think you give a customer what they want, not what you prefer or hype.

    Why is windows 7 getting rave reviews?

    IMHO? They seem "rave" cause Vista was so bad. I've seen bad comments about 7 too. Just not as many as Vista had.

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    Neon Samurai

    .. because it's much better than Windows Vista was and has a whole heck of a lot of marketing behind it along with the obvious advantages of pre-installed systems.

    "Sure if you installed linux for some old farts that only want to browse the internet and check email, Linux will work. I just hope they don't buy the newest digital camera, or printer, or see something in the software manager they like, only to have a crashed install. Honestly I'd bet HALF of the stuff you see in the linux install manager won't install properly. There will absolutely be dependency problems."

    Any new digital cameras should work just fine as they tend to be based on standards. Major distributions like Ubuntu already have the software to pull the images off with little user interaction just like osX and (i'm guessing) Windows does. Software out of the package manager should also install pretty cleanly since it doesn't get into the repository without rigorous testing and review; this does depend on the distribution to some degree but Debian has been rock solid and Mandriva only pulled down a bad package once in the near decade I used it. A crashed install of a single package from the package manager should also be a non-issue. A broken program won't effect currently active programs until they are restarted (assumign it's an update to an active program). Even a kernel update won't bake the system until you reboot and in that case, the boot menu will have the old unbroken kernel to fall back on if needed. I've yet to see such a thing happen when sticking to the distribution provided repositories though. A good package manager deals with dependency problems also. If you install something from teh repository then it's dependencies will be in the repo also and the package manager will install them all as needed.

    If Win7 and Ubuntu will can both cover the user's needed, wouldn't it be irresponsible to have them purchase a full win7 license rather than consider a few Linux distributions easily tested with the client by liveCD? Simply reaching for win7 as a knee jerk reaction would be similar to selling one's client win7 Ultimate when they only needed win7 Home edition.

    I would consider it unprofessional to ignore either option during the OS selection phase.

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    bobgroz

    See my post above about Z/OS (with it's MVS core). There are THOUSANDS of more companies, the military, etc. running MVS core operating systems as servers than linux.

    Can you set up Z/os on your x86 computer using the GPU software called Hercules? Google it. Read about it. You wont understand a thing. Maybe you need to see what serious tech is....

    BTW, I run OS/390 here, in my house on an x86 machine.

    A feat that perhaps 1% of operating system engineers can perform. The point I am making is I KNOW TECH. Linux does NOT belong in the home.... PERIOD. Not now, not never. Quit trying to make it something it's not. I'm not just talking to you (the poster that I'm replying to) - you are probably a decent guy and know your linux. Hats off to you. But remember, there is always somebody that knows more.

    I'm tired of the arrogance of people that know a bit about linux. I look on boards and see poor newbies trying to set up things like what starts when linux boots - getting blasted by some arrogant know it all (at least that what he thinks he is) making the poor newbie feel stupid. Come over to my house and lets play with Hercules - not you personally, but anyone who thinks they are a tech hotshot.

    You will learn the most important thing about tech - HUMILITY. None of us knows even 5% of all the tech out there. So let's stop acting like arrogant know it all's. Help out the newbie, if he has an interest in learning linux. Don't make him feel stupid just to make yourself feel good.

    Again, sir, this is not directed at you personally. It's a global problem that I'm sick and tired of.

    Rant over.

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    j-mart

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z/OS

    It is a UNIX compliant OS, like Linux, BSD etc

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    Slayer_

    I don't see an advantage to that type of server vs the many other OS's you can put on a server.

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    bobgroz

    Wikipedia is wrong, if it says Z/OS is simply a unix OS. The Unix piece is just a thread to run that kind of work. The heavy lifting, the stuff that keeps western civilization going is done by the core MVS base. I know. I worked with it for 20 years. We used very little of the unix stuff for our work; MVS was the workhorse. Check out OS/390 or MVS for a better description in Wikipedia than Z/OS. Z/OS is just a 64 bit version of OS/390. Believe me when I say this, unix or linux or any operating system doesn't have near the power as MVS. That is a FACT that cannot be disputed. Call your electric company and ask them where most of their computer cycles go. If you can get through you will find MVS is doing most of the work, not unix.

    They only use the unix piece for running webservers, etc. because MVS was not designed for that. The REAL computing, the printing of the paychecks, the billing, the heavy calculations, the printing, all the running programs that keep an electric company going run on MVS.

    More people sit at a CICS terminal inputing data than any job in the computer field. MVS rules. In fact, all of Unix's functionality was copied from MVS. MVS existed long before Unix. Virtual storage, swap or page files, multitasking - all of that was invented on MVS by IBM.

    OS/2 was a great desktop operating system. I was sorry to see it go. It's still in use today, however. You need OS/2 to IPL an MVS system. OS/2 was built on the principles of MVS, but on a much smaller platform. OS/2 - had it survived would have seriously kicked linux *** in the server market. IBM just never got behind it like they should have. Their bad. I still have my OS/2 WARP cd's and run it in a virtual machine and it's still awesome.

    Open your mind. Linux / Unix is NOT the bottom line.

    If MVS were to go away today, we would not be eating within a week. That is, unless we grew our own food.....

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    DHCDBD

    Microsoft until version 2.1.

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    DHCDBD

    Fast facts about z/OS UNIX

    * It is a certified UNIX system and an integral element of z/OS.
    * WebSphere? Application Server, CICS?, IMS TM , Java TM Runtime, Tuxedo, DB2?, WebSphere MQ, SAP R/3, Lotus Domino, and Oracle Web Server all use z/OS UNIX.
    * z/OS UNIX applications can communicate with DB2?, CICS, IMS, and WebSphere MQ.
    * z/OS UNIX is built for the enterprise where you can prioritize workloads for high performance when running with a mixed workload.
    * There is a broad range of ISV applications ported to z/OS UNIX.
    * z/OS UNIX has a hierarchical file system familiar to UNIX users.
    * Applications can work with data in both the z/OS UNIX file systems and traditional MVS TM data sets. MVS programs can access UNIX files, and UNIX programs can access MVS data sets.
    * The SMB File and Print Server enables a distributed file sharing infrastructure for z/OS UNIX files and Windows? workstations.
    * Users can choose which interface they want to use: the standard shell, 3270, or the ISPF interfaces.
    http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/zos/unix/


    Linux is a variant of Unix, can you say.

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    bobgroz

    it's not marketing that keeps windows on the home user desktop, its the fact that windows works out of the box with all the hardware (especially the current hardware) and linux does NOT - especially if you are a home user that doesn't know what fstab or initab or runlevels, etc. etc. are.

    Wake up. Linux is just too complex for people who just want to use their computers and not debug them.

    You guys get off on debugging. I did too, before a doctor made a serious error and permanently damaged my brain by giving me the wrong medications together. I've been fighting with suicide for years.

    I used to work on an operating system that makes linux look like a toy. MVS, which when I was destroyed was called OS/390 and now called Z/OS. The most advanced business OS in the world. You guys who think you are so hot on tech couldn't even begin to understand that OS.

    Tell me what is DASD? What is a partitioned dataset? What is RACF? What is JES2? What is HCD? How about Open Edition? What about full posix compliant unix that runs as a task under Z/os? Can you set that up? Can you do an IOGEN? What about IPCS and dump reading? Can you guys read a dump? Do you know what a PSW is? What is SMP?
    Tell me, what is CICS? What is VSAM? Can you tell me? How about a sysplex - what is that? Can you tell me what TSO is? How about ROSCOE?

    Well, I could go on and on, but Z/OS (with it's MVS core) runs western civilization, guys. Every large bank, financial institution, disney world, the military uses Z/OS for their business, Linux is a joke even for large business. I worked on an operating system that had at any time 40,000 to 70,000 users on at a time. We had well over 800 printers printing concurrently. I'd love to see linux do that.

    Can you guys run Z/os on the free open source software called Hercules? I can. I know all about tech. I was working in it before you were even a thought in your father's mind.

    I miss it so bad. I've been disabled for 8 years, but I know what operating system belongs where. You are totally deceived if you think Linux belongs in the home - for home users. Wake up and smell the coffee. Linux is for small to medium range businesses -period. You know, things like fast food chains, maybe some healthcare use, maybe a Midas Muffler store - things like that.

    Linux could never have supported the large fortune 500 company I worked at. Never.

    Learn where Linux belongs. Not in the home. Not in fortune 500 companies (for their REAL computing needs), in small to medium businesses - with linux system programers on staff....

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    Deadly Ernest

    the world. It may appear that way in some marketing situations because the companies who bulk build retail computers, like Dell and HP, go to a lot of effort to design their systems to work with Windows and then make a specialised version of Windows to run on that specific model of their machine. They put a lot of work into making it work.

    Windows has the retail market due to the fact Dell and HP get huge discounts from Microsoft for Windows by putting them on everything, and they only pass a portion of that discount on to the retail buyer - thus upping their profits along the way. They can't do that with Linux, so they don't like it and don't make buying their systems with Linux easy - **** some don't make Linux versions available at all.

    Want to see how Linux and Windows REALLY compare - go buy two systems form a local Mom and Pop computer store , store systems where they put them together from generic industry components - and don't specify ones that a deliberately made for Windows only, like some Radeon cards. Then set them up and start to install SimplyMepis Linux 8.0 on one and Windows 7 on the other. See how soon you have them both fully set up with the right drivers and ready for general use. I can tell you now, it won't be Windows, as you'll have to download some drivers and reboot the system a number of times before you're finished. I know this, as I had to do it for a client with regards to SimplyMepis 6 and Win XP a few years back.

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    j-mart

    When you take a bunch of components that you have, and build them into a box, Installing Linux,and getting a system up and running, connected to the net and with a decent screen resolution, is always faster than a Windows setup to the same stage.

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    Slayer_

    If you took, for arguement, Windows 98, and installed it on a machine made with hardware from 1997, Linux distros, from then to now still could not manage that.

    Win7 got an edge on linux again, but the edge is already lost as Win7 drivers are old now while linux drivers are always updated. New hardware has a better chance of working with linux than it does with windows.

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    bobgroz

    1) Use any hardware you want

    2) Install a program successfully without the help of google to fix all the dependencies The GUI install managers in Linux STINK. I've tried em all, and your lucky if even half the stuff goes on without needing lots of work and manipulation to get your software working

    3) Run the LATEST games in all their directx 10/11 glory.

    4) Watch and record TV without painful setups.

    5) Even begin to match the sheer amount of software available for windows.

    6) Turn it on and it just works. This is what people want. They don't want to have to learn the internals of and operating system, they just want their computer to WORK and use it without needing to debug every damned thing.

    Sorry, anyone who thinks Linux belongs in the home is close minded and blinded probably by sheer hate for Microsoft. Those are NOT reasons to make a choice on what you should use at home.

    I'd be willing to bet most of the linux users who say they use it for home, have a microsoft virtual machine somewhere on their hard drive.

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    Deadly Ernest

    1. Windows doesn't run all hardware either - so null claim; **** not all versions of Windows will run all Windows compliant hardware either.

    2. You get the exact same compliances issues with Windows, they just aren't as open at acknowledging they exist, and they aren't as ready to share them around.

    3. Well duh, you want to use a game using a proprietary Microsoft software, try running a game in Windows built around Open GL and watch what happens. However, WINE, Cedega, and CrossOver do manage to handle a this issue of duplicating DirectX well.

    4. There are Linux applications for you to watch and record TV quite easily. I prefer to watch TV on the television as I can't afford a 36 inch computer monitor.

    5. There are huge amounts of software available for Linux and Unix, even some that have no Windows equivalents. But the majority of Windows software available is specialised business stuff, which kind of defeats your case for the home market; or are games that are designed for Windows and can run in Cedega or WINE or CrossOver.

    6. Turn it on and it just works only applies to pre-built systems, of which you can buy in Linux as well. If you want to load your own Windows on a blank system, you have to learn some of the Internals, more so than what you need for a modern Linux distro.

    About the comment of a Windows virtual machine, yes, you can have that if you want as most Linux distributions include WINE for those who want it to play their Windows specific games.

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    lucien86

    To be able to install Windows you have to be able to put the disk in the drive, its usually little more complicated than that.

    [rest of post moved below]

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    Sorry, anyone who thinks Linux belongs in the home is close minded and blinded probably by sheer hate for Microsoft. Those are NOT reasons to make a choice on what you should use at home.

    And yet you are open-minded and not blinded by hate for Linux? If so, I can't get a single one of your posts to read that way. It my not be your intent, but all I see in any of your posts is fanboy "Windows is better because it runs games" crap.

    I run Ubuntu 9.04 and SimplyMepis 8.0.06 on my PCs at home. They installed with no problem and they just work. And no Windows VM on those PCs.

    I do have a Windows PC for my son, and he uses it to play on-line games. What you need to explain to me, since Windows is so perfect for home users, is why on-line games that work perfectly in standard user accounts under Linux require admin access if they are to work under Windows. In fact, the vast majority of Windows games require admin access to run; game programmers seem to be totally incapable of writing their games to run without admin access. What's up with that?

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    j-mart

    An old Toshiba 1550 laptop with Win98 I use to run my collection of old pen plotters (as they run best with DOS) not connected to network. Every thing else I need a computer for is handled by Linux and ha been for about 7 years ago when I went from Win98 to Mandrake 9.2.

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    jcoleman86033

    At home 2 out of 2 computers run Linux Mint; hmmm that's a 100%.

    Wish all my friends ran an up to date Linux distro then they wouldn't be bugging me to fix their Windoze boxes or Internet Exploder.

    At work I had a slew of driver sets for our various HP & Dell boxes/laptops to get Windows loaded again when somebody hosed it with Viruses or Malware. Most of the time (I didn't say every time because there may have been a rare occasion) a straight Windows install (XP SP2) didn't have the drivers for the network, video, and sound cards. Ditto for the few Vista boxes we had. Dead in the water.

    I was (past tense) fairly happy with XP and careful on the Internet, etc. Then we got some puters with Vista - that's what finally drove me seriously to try Linux and I haven't looked back.

    Windows 7 is OK but looks like a handful compared to Mint & Gnome. Still playing with it so I don't get so lost looking for something when my friends start to upgrade and call for help.

    Security?? - why does Windows need AV, Malware, secure this or that software??; hmmm. Rare things in the Linux world. I don't run as root and use a good firewall.

    Buy a pre-installed Linux box or lappie from an Internet supplier and everything works, just like the big boys, and generally with better hardware.

    Just a few thoughts

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    santeewelding

    I'd rather be at the forefront of when shlt happens.

    Hear me, Chad?

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    bobgroz

    Can't use caffeine because of the damage done to my brain.

    So you are definitely wrong on that point. As far as viruses and malware goes, of course Windows is going to get attacked the most, it's the most popular (by far) operating system for home use.

    If linux had the install base that windows has in the home I guarantee you IT would be targeted.

    Why do you think MACS don't git hit with viruses and malware? I run OSX here too and don't even have a freakin antivirus or antimalware on it. It's not because OSX could NOT be attacked, it's because it's not has hated by the hackers as windows is.

    The hackers want recognition in their community for their exploits. Do you think they will get that recognition attacking Linux or OSX. OF COURSE NOT!

    It's the POPULARITY of windows that makes it a big target. And to microsoft's credit the are pretty quick with fixes through auto update.

    I have to question the skills of the people where you work if that much malware and virus activity was getting through your windows machines.

    I worked for a company that I guarantee was much larger than the company you work for and we never had those problems with our windows machines,

    Then again, we had people that knew how to protect windows properly, where it seems you had trouble in your company with that issue.

    Windows isn't attacked or more vulnerable because it's worse in the security area, it's attacked hundreds of times if not thousands of times more by hackers wanting to get the glory in their circle.

    If you know what to do (and it's not that complicated) you can protect your windows system fairly easily.

    I have never lost a windows system to virus or malware and that dates back to windows 3.1

    Again, you argument just doesn't hold water. And here's a tip... I'd look for some serious help with your windows talent where you work. No company should be having the virus and malware problems you have posted here in a professional IT setup.....

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    bobgroz

    you've got to be kidding. Installing windows 7 is simply expanding a prebuilt file that has been compressed, and then plug and play and registry information are put together to provide a desktop. I have installed windows7 and all I have ever had to enter is to tell it where to install, what timezone I'm in, and the computer name I wish to use.

    I've actually left the freakin room while windows 7 set itstelfl up.

    I've never left the room during a linux install. In fact, I remember a time when I was installing a distro and wanted to put the boot record for Linux on the primary linux partition, the root partition, NOT in the MBR.

    This was because I was using a very good 3rd party utility to manage my different operating systems.

    The GUI in the install gave me two choices, install the boot record on the root partition or place it in the MBR.

    Of course, I chose the root partition as I did not want the MBR updated by GRUB or LILO. Those things are ANCIENT compared to the rd party utility I use to manage booting.

    Well, you can guess what happened. The distro GUI was messed up, it installed in the MBR against my wishes and wiped out my third party boot manager.

    I am very technical, and I can prove that if any of you want to log on to my computer, so I was able to repair the MBR with the knowledge that I have.

    But if this had happened to a newbie it would have been a disaster. They would have had no idea what to do. They probably wouldn't know what an MBR is or a partition table for that matter.

    But the fact is, Mr. and Mrs home user, whilst installing linux getting screens about MBRS and root partitions, will just take a wild guess.

    And there are other things installing Linux as well, what packages do you want, and half the time the dependencies are screwed up after the user makes the choice through the GUI.

    Yes, TO YOU and TO ME Linux seems simple to install, but really try hard, to put yourself in the shoes of someone that knows nothing about linux, and try to look through those eyes when installing it.

    There is NO WAY Linux is easier for a newbie to install than Windows 7, Vista, or XP for that matter. NO WAY.

    You are simply wrong.

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    Slayer_

    Since Win98, the Windows install has always been 2 or 3 clicks. Win2000, you can walk away, it eventually clicks for you. The last challenging Windows OS to install was Win95. Easiest way to install Win95 was with a Win98 boot disk

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    Neon Samurai

    I can't remember the last time I wasn't able to place LILO or GRUB where I wanted them on the platters. Actually, Debian Lenny had to have GRUB on the partition because Truecrypt needed the MBR. Mandriva was no different; /dev/hda, /dev/hda1, /dev/fd0 (mbr, primary partition, floppy) or "other" allowing me to select any applicable location.

    I can't comment regarding win7 install from scratch by my Debian install is around an hour from bare metal to complete system including all the applications. WinXP + protection apps + office + user apps.. that's always been more than an hour without a ghosted image to start with. (but again, I can't comment from experience with win7 install and would imagine it's greatly improved)

    One also can't ignore the benefit of being the first or only OS a hardware vendor delivers drivers for with a new product. Some hardware companies are realizing that customers use the same hardware across different OS be it by going the Nvidia way or with open interface specs or driver source.

    (I still maintain that closed drivers for any platform are absolute madness. Compete through closed apps, sure. The code bridge between OS kernel and hardware has no justification to be closed.)

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    DHCDBD

    acronyms specific to that OS which can be learned overnight.

    ie. VSAM from Google: (V)irtual (S)torage (A)ccess (M)anagment.

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    bobgroz

    show me proven statistics that the home market has more linux machines than windows 7. You made the statement, I want to see proof. I don't care about servers; IBM has many more Z/os servers out there than Linux will ever have.

    Show me that people prefer Linux in the Home over Windows, I want to see your statistics and the source from whence they came.

    People at home are not running servers. Is this a surprise to you? Most of them don't even own a router.

    But they enjoy Windows 7 (as do I) for games, multimedia, and easy computing. I haven't had ONE problem with Windows XP or Windows 7 since I have owned either of them. Not one. And that dates back to 2002. Windows 2000 was awesome as well.

    Your interests are not the same as the mainstream home user. I'm not saying that's wrong, but please don't come on here and try to convince us there are more Linux desktops than windows - even in the server market.

    Show me the proof.

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    Deadly Ernest

    computers running Unix / Linux than Windows 7 because Windows 7, like most versions of Windows cannot run on systems.

    Nearly all the DVD Player / recorders run on Linux, none of those that don't run on Windows. The majority of Video records and hard drive based recorders run on Linux (last I checked TIVO used Linux on all their gear), the fancy microwave ovens run on Linux, most cell phones run on Linux, just about anything in the house using a computerised control run on either Linux or Unix, if not, they have a special proprietary system but not Windows.

    Then, after all that, you move on to the PC market. The Unix / Linux group has a fair share of home user PCs being used, but they aren't all counted as you don't need to account for every copy used. The Mac uses a Unix based operating system, and I'll let you decide if you want to count that in the Unix / Linux side of things.

    As to the total number of Win 7 systems, I'd be willing to bet that there are more home users using Win XP and Win 98 than Win 7. And that's just within the Windows side of the market.

    As to reliable statistics, no one, not even Microsoft have any reliable statistics of what people use at home. Microsoft go with the number of licences they've sold, but they also have a habit of counting multiple licences related to the one computer system. Nor do they take off any numbers for systems where people have removed the licence or destroyed the computer.

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    j-mart

    A desktop OS, in competition with Microsoft or Apple, in a niche market, but it is much more the Swiss army knife of the OS world.

    It is based on the Unix model, originally written by some of the best minds in the computing world at the time and has done the job for years.

    The big advantage it has is that by being open source, it is out there for those who are clever enough to take this and adapt it to do many different tasks rather than re-inventing the wheel every time they need an OS to run equipment that uses a computer. Servers and desktop machines are only a small part of this.

    Using a desktop computer to play games is just one of the many things you can do with a computer at home and there are many who have a home computer who don't use their machine for this purpose and some of these prefer to use Linux as the OS for their home machine.

    The only reason that Linux is not commonly used as an OS for awesome gaming home machines is not technology related, but because no one has bothered taking the platform down this path on a large scale basis in terms of releasing all of the poplar games as Linux versions, maybe some day someone will, not that it bothers me one way or another, but because Linux makes better uses of a machines resources, given everything in place, native Linux versions of games, good drivers for high end video cards it would probably work well.

    Most don't actually choose the OS for their home computer as the walk into an appliance store and buy one of the shelf, quite often the one that's marked down on special, or the one that's the shiniest and coolest looking.

    Those that actually choose the OS of their system would be Mac and Linux users and possibly the gaming enthusiast who will choose every piece of hardware and the version of windows that works best with their games. Most of the rest don't care, they will use whatever the machine comes with.

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    danerd

    i agree with deadly earnest, the reason windows is market leader is not because its better its all to do with marketing, remember the fight between vhs and beta video formats, vhs won not because it was better ( we all now know that beta was actually better )but because of better marketing.--cheers--

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    nelsonhoover

    I think the point he's trying to make here is that needing to run a bunch of command line mumbo-jumbo, just to install some program or change some setting, compiling stuff and making sure all dependencies are there, is beyond the patience and skill level of your average former Windows home user. With Windows, under normal circumstances, all programs come with a simple setup wizard and 98% of the settings can be easily changed via a nice looking GUI. Not so with Linux.
    Don't get me wrong, I think Linux is great but, as a Windows user myself, playing with Linux can take lots of patience and Googling at times.
    You have to admit, beyond simply running the pre-installed software, Linux gets a bit more technical than Windows (i.e. no nice wizards or GUI's to just handle all the dirty work, etc.)

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    bobgroz

    You really understand the state of the union. If I was still working I'd offer you a job :)

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    Slayer_

    Require millions of support installs. I still do not install .Net for the same reason, if it can't run on it's own, it can't run. But in Linux (Let's say Ubuntu or example) you check off a program to install, and [thankfully] it checks off 20 seemingly random support packages that must be installed.
    WTF???

    Even worse, in, for example Mandriva, these support packages won't be deleted if you delete the program. Not always anyways.

    And it get's worse.

    So far, Linux robustness has not been evident to me. I had a drive start to fail and write bad clusters, Ok, back ups, new drive, all fixed. All my VM's VHD's on that drive became corrupted file systems. An XP machine, a Win95, a Mandriva and a Win7.

    WinXP would not boot until I stuck in Hirens, booted to miniXP and did a Chkdsk /R which completely repaired the system and recovered all files. It now boots fine.
    Win7, when booted said it had system file damage (said on a balloon message on desktop) and suggested running chkdsk. So I did so, completely repaired.
    Win95, booted it up and my icons wouldn't appear, couldn't get to desktop, so I Alt + F4. brought up shutdown, and told it to boot to DOS mode.
    Once in DOS mode, I typed scandisk /Surface.
    Walked away, came back, it was done, fixed and system booted and ran fine.
    Mandriva... dead, I did plenty of googling, tried the install disk, just can't get it back.
    This is a video I took of it failing.
    http://trevorsarchives.selfip.net/temp/Mandriva%20Demo.htm

    Could not fix it, somehow it became terribly damaged, but every disk check showed perfect. It couldn't find it's own damage.

    The results were, the XP suffered over 6000 bad clusters (mostly system fonts, a crippling thing to lose in Windows)
    95 suffered 4 bad clusters in used memory, 92 in unused memory.
    Win7 unknown, didn't read it
    Mandriva unknown, it thinks there is none.


    Currently I have a copy of Mint on a USB drive with permanent storage so it runs like a normal installed OS. Works really good, good OS, finds my drivers perfectly and performs well. It's only failing really is the weak software you are forced to use (Like Firefox, though nothing saying I can't find something better, but USB is limited so not worth the effort)

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    bobgroz

    typical experience you have posted for a home user. Yes I forgot about those packages. What a JOKE! Try installing and configuring Myth TV. It's a NIGHTMARE. I'll take Media Center any day of the week. You bring up a good point, linux can and will ruin current hardware. It's very dangerous to run with up to date hardware. Leave it where it belongs - in small to medium business use. Where there are paid professionals to set it up and maintain it. This is NOT for home use.

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    Deadly Ernest

    but I've been using SimplyMepis Linux and Kubuntu Linux for four or five years now, and the only time I've run a command line was to do a ping to check something on the network. I use the command line in fixing Windows boxes on a regular basis as it's the easiest way to do some types of trouble shooting.

    people who think you have to use the command line in Linux each day, just haven't looked at any of the dozens of retail end user versions that are out there now.

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    nelsonhoover

    I'm not trying to say the command line is evil, just hard for the average home user to figure out.

    And no, the command line is not used every day. But only once in 4 or 5 years? On Linux? Surely ye jest.

    Unless you stick to installing/using the programs listed in the package manager and only send email and surf the net. Oops, just remembered, I couldn't even accomplish that without the command line. Had to run some command I found via Google to get Firefox to see and use the Java plugin. (sort of shows I'm a lot more familiar with Windows, doesn't it)

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    Deadly Ernest

    once since I put Linux on it. I don't do anything fancy with it, but In do use Open Office, GIMP, Bluefish, Fire Fox, Thunderbird, krename, settings control centre, Dolphin,, kaffiene, vlc, kdiskfree, menu editor, qparted, gparted, amarok, media player, k3b, knode, wine - forte agent, wings 3d, skype, and a few other apps - all through the relevant GUIs and not the command line. Only used command line for a ping when checking connectivity to my son's machine recently - he had trouble finding the network after putting Win 7 on his system.

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    Slayer_

    When I see command line instructions for Linux, I just can't be bothered, but in Windows, it doesn't bother me? I actually do a lot of command line in Windows, batch files, etc.


    Some strange mental magic voodoo stuff going on...

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    bobgroz

    What a joke! I'll take windows help system over that crap any day. You can't even read the damned things if you don't know the commands to pipe them to more or less. They are about as easy to understand as running a nuclear power plant. No average home user in their right mind is going to sit there reading hours of that crap. Please wake up! Linux is a niche market operating system... period.

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    Deadly Ernest

    help pages in the Microsoft manuals, oh, I forgot, they don't supply them any more, do they? As to the on-line help, they depend upon what the writer of the software wish to provide, and that's all up to the individual. But poor help pages can be provided by anyone.

    BTW The Linux / Unix man pages do have an equivalent in Windows, although I don't think MS include it any more, and it's just as hard to follow as the man pages as both are written for qualified techs to use. Just get a DOS prompt and type HELP - it's still there in Win XP, but hugely reduced.

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    Picture this:

    You're a brand new computer user, trying to find out why you can't browse the internet on your brand new Windows PC. You open Device Manager, double click on the network card, see that it is not working, and click on Troubleshoot. IE opens...page not found.

    Now what?

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    seanferd

    I had to correct 3 mistakes in a recent support mail from MS which were causing the user no end of trouble.

    So much for paid support as well.

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    bobgroz

    I've never had any trouble with the windows help system - especially in windows 7. I type in my query, and the system even gives me the links to where I need to go to do what I want. MUCH more advanced than a MAN page. You will never get that level of help from linux, because linux assumes the user is familiar with things like the etc directory, smb mounts, the config files, piping comands, the bash and other command prompts and scripting.

    Linux is great for small to medium server use.... PERIOD.

    It will never overtake the home desktop. Microsoft owns that along with Apple (yes I know Macs run on the unix terminal program, but the user doesn't even have access to that unless he is very tech savy).

    Windows 7 is a fine desktop system for home use. I use it all the time and am very satisfied with it. All my hardware works, programs install easily, there is a terrific help system, there are mouse gestures, keyboard shortcuts, the UI is fast and light, it makes a great PVR, things like libraries and jumplists make getting at the things I want simple, I'm thrilled to death about it. All my games work and look fantastic without having to monkey with things like wine, etc. to even get them to look half as good.

    I'll take a windows 7 desktop for home use above linux any day. When I'm at home on my computer, I don't want to have to research and learn, I just want to use my computer to do the things I want....PERIOD.

    Until Linux can do that... and believe me at this point it cannot, I will ONLY use it for server duty .... period.


    Bob

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    bobgroz

    an ethernet card fail under windows. Never. Not even since windows 95.

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    bobgroz

    Why would you EVER call for help with something as easy as windows to debug? That, my friend, is an anomaly..

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    Congratulations. You have, as in your responses to others, either completely missed, or blinded yourself to, the point.

    Search the web some time for "I have a network connection, but I can't browse". Now picture yourself as a brand new computer user trying to use Windows on-line help to solve this problem. How is this better than Man pages?

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    Deadly Ernest

    oranges with oranges. The Linux man pages are NOT the help out there, just as the Microsoft Command Line Help pages are not the only help, but are the exact equivalent of the Linux man pages and are written in exactly the same way.

    One of the things anyone does when creating an application is to write a help file for that application, the Windows GUI is an application, it's just that Microsoft have built it into the operating system kernel. They have a second help file for the GUI. Just as Linux have other help files with their applications, one for the KDE GUI and one for the Gnome GUI, and one for every other damn GUI that's available for you to use. And they all operate the same way. Most are better than what Microsoft do, some are not - they depend on who write the program.

    Linux is much better than Windows for many reasons, especially Win 7. The only place Windows beats Linux is in the predatory marketing Microsoft uses to sew up the desktop sales in the retail department stores.

    Windows, especially Win 7, does NOT 'just work' it never had done so. The only reason it appears to do so is that you've bought a retail system where a tech at the company has spent many hours developing a special cut down version of Win 7 to run on the system you bought. They did it after spending hours carefully selecting hardware to work with Win 7. Anyone can spend the same number of hours doing the same thing for any system. Heck, Dell even has a few Linux boxes they did that with, you just buy them (only available from their web site due to their deal with Microsoft not to put them in stores) and turn them on.

    I suggest you take the copy of Win 7 you have and try and install it on another system that's totally different to the one you have and not been specially set up for Win 7 to start with. Then you'll learn the truth about Win 7.

    It's very clear you're not experienced with loading software from scratch on a machine built from standard components, and have only used systems you bought as complete retail packages.

    As I've said previously, you have the right to choose to pay Microsoft to provide poor systems and service, and we have the right to not pay them. However, since you've made it clear you know nothing about real basics of a non retail Windows or Linux system, I strongly suggest you cut back on the BS you're sprouting - or are you really a Microsoft marketing person trying to boost sales.

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    bobgroz

    are not understandable to the average home user. They don't even know the commands to use to stop them from scrolling past the screen. Windows help is much better than man pages for the home user .... period. If you think otherwise, give me what you're smoking I want to feel good too.

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    bobgroz

    Firsts of all, the machine I use windows 7 on boots 5 different operating systems. I use acronis disk director suite (the boot manager that comes with it) to manage the boots.

    I installed windows 7 on this computer myself. Not only did I install IT but I also installed windows xp, windows vista and mandrake linux, ALL FROM SCRATCH. Don't make stupid assumptions you know nothing about.

    You are a typical linux head ready to call anyone "simple" or "stupid" who does not agree with your views. YOu assume I bought this machine with win 7 preinstalled.

    That's a rip at me, and I don't appreciate it. You have no idea of my computer skills (which I know are about 100x what your's are).

    Go google hercules and setup MVS. How many operating systems can you boot from YOUR machine.

    Each of the operating systems have pluses and minuses and I use them for their strengths as needed.

    I only use linux to browse the web. That's it. I don't run a server in my house, no need for it.

    And quit whining like a baby about marketing. If you're so damned smart, put together a distro that works with all my hardware, and plays all my games that look as well as they do on windows 7.

    I've installed 100 times more operating systems than you have.

    No go set up hercules with the included MVS images you can download, set up a multi boot machine from scratch, and put together a linux distro that is as good as Windows 7 is for a home user.

    Geez, you are dumb. You can't prove to me or anyone else that linux is better in the home than windows, so you make blanket statements about my technical abilities in a put down fashion. You, sir, are a typical linux freak blinded by stupidity.......

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    Slayer_

    This should be more obvious, but I will explain it anyways.

    MAN pages are to explain in detail, how to use a Linux command. This requires knowledge of the name of the command and the general idea of it's use. If you do not know the name of the command, your SOL.

    Windows help, is a general GUI based help system for general help about common tasks in windows.

    Man pages have no equivalent in Windows. You would have to search to MS KB to find information on a DOS command.

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    bobgroz

    I also boot OSx from the same x86 box that has win 7, vista, xp, and linux on using an efi dongle that I attached to the USB header. Can you do THAT? Can you put together a "hackintosh"? Just to teach YOU something EFI is a replacement for the BIOS and is REQUIRED to boot a MAC. There, you learned something from a person you assumed bought a system preinstalled with software. How about that? You learned something from a dummy like me! Let's all clap for Deadly's technical prowess.

    Quit blowing smoke up my ***, and quit putting my technical abilities down. I build my own machines and install all my software on them.

    I've installed MVS at least 10 times in my life.

    Can you install an operating system that supports 40, 000 users concurrently?

    No I don't work for Microsoft, I worked for a fortune 500 company based in Manhattan for 20 years. I was named in the top 10 % of system programmers by a journal published by my peers. If, anything, I'm and IBM fan. They wrote software you couldn't even begin to understand.

    You're not going to be able to bully me with your put downs and stupid assumptions about what I have installed and how I did it.

    Now go build a hackintosh, smart guy, and tell me the steps you used to do it so I can verify you did do it.

    I stand on my original post. For HOME USE the best operating systems in the following order are Windows followed by MAC. Windows is first because of it's support for much more software and much more hardware. It's a tie for ease of use between them.

    I care about the home user who is trying to learn, and I like the underdog. I've helped hundreds of people install windows - later versions -on their machines.

    Any NUT who thinks Linux is better for HOME USE than Windows or OSX impresses me as being a "newbie"....

    Bob

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    bobgroz

    My point is at least 50% of the time (and I'm being kind), when you need to install software or up to date hardware on Linux your primary resources are MAN pages and google.

    You will spend MUCH MORE TIME getting software and up to date hardware to work on Linux than on windows.

    Yes, I know Linux has some GUI help, but it SUCKS.

    Here's an average home user that wants to install software to use his TV card. He finds something called Myth TV and gets excited about it.

    Then the hangover kicks in. He goes to his little linux GUI places a checkmark next to Myth TV and presses "install" or some variation of that.

    To his dismay he is bombed with messages about prerequisite software. Messages fly by very fast, the last one he sees is that Myth TV didn't install correctly.

    Now he's lost. He doesn't even know where to look. Where are the logs, he thinks. What's wrong? He sees stuff about "missing packages". He goes to goole and searches on "linux missing packages". He gets a general understanding of what that means, but what packages are missing? He further googles and finds oodles of hits on complex RPM commands. Now this guy really wanted to get TV up on this Linux system that is supposed to be so secure, so advanced.

    He finds something about MAN pages in google and starts typing MAN pages dealing with RPM management. But wait! The instructions fly by him, he can't read what is at the top! How do I do that? Again he googles and finds something called "less" and something about piping a command.

    What is piping, he thinks? Now it's 4am and he still has no TV on his linux box. He's tired, punch drunk.

    After a few more google searches, he goes a linux board dealing with Myth TV and is scorched by other users making him feeling stupid and guilty for not reading a bunch of "how to's" that some kind person lists in his post ( and their are very few "kind people" when it comes to newbies"

    Finally, frustrated, he says "the **** with it", reformats his drive, installs windows 7 (which my 14 year old daughter can do) and immediately can watch TV in Media Center. Not only can he WATCH TV, listings are automatically downloaded for him, and he can easily RECORD shows - even a series of shows.

    Not one error message. Not one google search. Not even the NEED for a help system.

    Now you tell me, what system will that home user want?

    It's not about MAN pages it's about immature technology for the HOME user to make installation of hardware and software easy and workable - something someone without pretty extensive Linux knowledge does not have.

    Don't lose the forrest in the trees. This is not a discussion about help systems or man pages (even though the windows GUI help system is leaps and bounds above any GUI help system included in Linux).

    It's about ease of use. Software and Hardware support. It's about USING your computer and not DEBUGGING it every time you want to add a piece of new hardware or install software.....

    Keep the focus on the topic - what is better for the home user Windows or LInux. I stand on truth. Windows is better for that segment of computing.... period.

    Home users are not setting up servers, or configuring Apache.

    They just want their computer to work, and use it for their digital camera's (I won't even GO into that with Liinux), printers, and all the good software that has been written to perform ease of use functionality in the windows environment.

    Everyone (except a few here) just can't understand what is best for a HOME USER.

    I'm not against Linux, I use it to browse the web, and run hercules (yes hercules must be compiled on Linux to run optimally) - to run my copy of MVS which I use to keep my skills current in the slight chance some doctor is smart enough to be able to heal the damage done to me by two other doctors - I have two serious seizure disorders and have not been able to work for 8 years.

    Hercules has been wonderful to help me keep my MVS skills up to date.

    I used to get calls from competing companies with offers over $200,000 per year. If it had not been for my family, I would have checked those offers out.

    I'm NOT putting down Linux, it has it's PLACE, but PLEASE don't tell me that's for the average HOME USER. That's JUST PLAIN WRONG....

    Bob

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    Deadly Ernest

    You start out with a total BS about Linux not being ready for home use, when it's much more ready for home use than any version of Windows since Win 98 SE. Next you ***** that Linux won't run the hardware you have, simply because you buy hardware that's specifically designed to run a certain version of Windows, well duh, of course Linux won't run it natively. Linux is designed to work with the Industry Standards, while Microsoft Windows is NOT, Windows is designed to work with proprietary controls and requires special command exchangers, called drivers, to allow anything designed to industry standards to work with it.

    Naturally, unless the hardware manufacturers who build hardware to the Microsoft proprietary requirement put out drivers to allow their gear to work with Linux, or some third party takes the time to make one, Linux won't work with that hardware - whoopy do.

    I see you regard the truth about how Microsoft conduct their marketing is whining, which just shows how little grip you have on the reality of the market situation and the laws. If I'm so wrong about this, why has Microsoft paid out around a billion dollars in fines and compensation for several lost court cases around their marketing strategy?

    In all the posts you've made, you've made it clear you have no real understanding of the modern Linux distributions, and you continually try to muddy the waters by comparing the command line Linux man pages with the GUI help screens - two totally different help systems aimed at two totally different levels of users with different levels of knowledge. The Microsoft equivalent of the Linux man pages is the DOS command line help that's still got part of it installed in XP, and it's done in the same way. The GUI help pages you get with Gnome or KDE are the same as the Windows help pages you speak so highly of, and, again, they are both very much the same. Try comparing like with like in future.

    All you've shown in your posts is you have NO understanding of what people need or use at home, except maybe a gamer, which is NOT your average home user.

    It's clear to me you've got a fixed idea about Linux in your head and nothing will change that, well, as I've previously said, you do NOT have to use Linux if you do not want to. You can use whatevers available that you choose to. Sadly, that's not the case for everyone, as not everyone has the knowledge to go past a retail store where some quarter trained salesperson, whose only interest is their commission sales targets, is all set to push some pre-built and preloaded system with Windows as that's all you can get from a retail store, unless you go to an Apple store and buy a Mac.

    Windows has never been as good an operating system as Unix or Linux, for anything, it's just got a better marketing team, but then, Linux doesn't have a billion dollar marketing budget either.

    At this point, I'm getting a bit aggrieved with your insults and BS with the smoke and mirror, good bye.

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    Jessie

    I've got 7 running on my laptop... and just like XP, after about 3 months of the constant installing and uninstalling of programs that I put my systems through, it's booting slower and slower. Tomorrow, I'll be wiping my system clean and reinstalling the OS, then putting all my stuff back on there, so for about three months it won't take 20 minutes to boot... and then we'll do the whole thing over again.

    See, the problem here is NOT that Windows runs so much better out of the box... it's that Linux folks don't want to do home user tech support. For instance, Mint would be GREAT for a home user, if it came preloaded with openoffice, firefox, and some games. That's all home user's want. And let's face it, the move from XP to 7 is going to require the home user to learn a new OS and programs so while they're at it, they might as well learn a FREE one. The PROBLEM here is that there's no tech support for the home user to call about their Linux machine when it goes wrong, like there IS with their MS computer... we need more Linux tech support if Linux is ever to be a real contender here. The lack of tech support is what scares people off because there are a LOT of distros out there that would work very well for the new at home user.

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    bobgroz

    It's always the same with Linux fan boys. I'm tired. I'm fighting with seizures here, and don't want to beat a dead horse.

    Go ahead, believe Linux is the greatest for home use. Maybe go to wallmart and find out why they stopped selling cheap linux preloaded machines for home use. Maybe they can get through to you.

    I'm not ruining my health over this. God knows I suffer enough with insomnia, depression, anxiety, seizures, tinnitus, intestinal pain (due to damaged GABA and NMDA receptors in my gut). Two smart doctors did this to me 8 years ago because they were too lazy to pick up a book and check out drug interactions. See my website at
    www.fqvictims.org , I'm one of those unfortunate victims.

    It hurt like **** to loose the successful career I had, and the plans I had to start a business teaching large businesses how to use hercules to save hundreds of thousands of dollars on disaster recovery.

    Now I run a help line from my web site to try and help other victims of the pure poison the FDA and Big Pharma are pumping into american stomachs.

    You believe what you want. You're wrong, but believe it.

    I wish you all the best....

    Bob

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    bobgroz

    I used to write technical reports (part of my job) justifying huge software investments. It's hard to spell perfectly when you are half seized all the time. It's a miracle I can even write...

    Again, I wish you all the best...it's been a blast.

    Bob

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    jck

    I've picked on people before for it, but I look at it this way overall:

    I've read a lot of "professional" articles on here with misspellings, and these are by people paid to do them.

    I'm here (as you are) to gain knowledge, socialize, discuss, and have the full experience.

    If I were getting paid to worry about spelling/typographical errors, I'd worry.

    Besides, judging a poster on intelligence on their typos on here is akin to judge Einstein based on his penmanship.

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    Slayer_

    It's a fact :)

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    jck

    I got 3rd place in a state spelling bee when I was a kid, and I can program in a dozen languages (sorta...I think lol).

    Of course, I am weird like that. :^0

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    Slayer_

    That's like saying you know 12 different way's to scratch your balls. But you still only need 1 or 2 ways to get the job done.

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    jck

    Yeah, but if you're really good and fast it can feel like you've got 12 hands scratching! :^0

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    Slayer_

    ...really fast, then I'd be impressed.

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    jck

    you'd be shocked at how adept 40 years of bachelorhood has made me. :^0

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    CharlieSpencer

    Most users don't install video cards. If they did, they might have as much problem with Windows as with Linux. I've had some troublesome ones, although it's been a while.

    If the system comes with Linux pre-loaded with drivers for all the hardware, like Windows systems from the major vendors do, there's no technological reason home users shouldn't find a Linux system just as easy (or difficult) to use.

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    Jellimonsta

    "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
    - Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of DEC

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    Slayer_

    .

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    jck

    You know...

    HP is both a decent laptop/server/PC maker...

    And, a tasty sauce I like with my brekkie. :)

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    CharlieSpencer

    A big industry player in the 70s and 80s. They invented using hard drive space for virtual memory with their VMS operating system, and were huge in a sector of the industry then termed 'mini-computers' (as we called small mainframes in those pre-PC days). They were already on the wane when Compaq bought them in the mid-90s. Compaq pretty much abandoned what was left of their product line, and the merger with HP was the final ****.

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    jck

    But, HP still uses their tech under their own brand.

    And, I know for a fact one of the major utility companies down here runs a TON of DEC AlphaServers which they kept under maintenance.

    And those were some fast boxes...and the price showed it. :^0

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    CharlieSpencer

    I wonder if they're under a third-party maintenance agreement, or if they have some barnacle-encrusted old DEC technician on staff.

    Where do they get parts? eBay and craigslist are not my preferred sources for mission-critical components!

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    Um

    jck

    I'm not sure who did their maintenance. I just remember once an array drive failed, and by the end of the business day a tech was there with the replacement.

    And yeah, I think they paid for maintenance through the nose, but the costs of replacing dozens of those servers was astronomical too.

    Oh btw, I might be getting back in the utility industry...if this company will hire me. * fingers crossed *

    Not in NC like I'd hoped, though. Oh well. C'est la vie...

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    Tony Hopkinson

    VMS to help move the MIS functionality on to LAMP servers. They could still and were sourcing reconditioned alphas and the guys there could identify the chips at a 100 paces.

    Thete were waiting for a vms and fortran 'port to Itanium, for hardware replacement. Talking something like 75 machines, masses of inhouse interfacing to manufacturing plant, and near thirty years of software. Hardware replacement is effectively irrelevant in that sort of investment.

    I love working with VMS, it's still my favourite OS.

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    jck

    the VMS systems admin there was a cool guy. I would hang out at his condo by the beach and we'd drink beer and play guitar.

    And yeah, they had gotten some Fortran environment from MS about the time I was leaving there. From what I understood, they were moving to a new telemetry system that was Windows-based (big mistake lol) and they were going to port some Fortran code over to the MS servers from the proprietary telemetry system they had.

    VMS did look cool tho. I never got to learn it. Unfortunately.

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    ---TK---

    Now I might not be considered a "home" user, considering I work in the IT field... But I do use computers at home :).

    Out of the 5 PC's I use on a daily/weekly basis, 4 are xp, 1 Win7, and 3 Ubuntu.

    My File server/ print server is XP pro, with a Ubuntu 9.04 Virutal machine, that hosts my ssh/webmin/and translucent proxy.

    MediaCenter box is all Ubuntu 9.04 with XBMC media center, which has samba shares that pull from the file server. This box streams media files at 720p resolution, it would stream 1080i but my TV does not display in that resolution.

    My gaming rig is Win 7... Why? because games are not built for Linux, if they were, I would switch over. For a while I made a complete switch over, and got a few games to work with WINE, but the time it took... it just wasn't worth it (to me).

    As far as your arguments go, I would say they are half ***ed... Not to be mean, but when you built your box you did not plan ahaid... You did not research anything, or you would have known that ATI is not the best choice when running a Linux box.

    Win 7, is a real nice platform, it is easy to use, stable, and expensive (I do like it). Is it Lightyears ahead? Not a chance in ****. Everything (minus most games) on my windows 7 box I can do in Linux with half the hardware. My Media Center is an atom 330 CPU, 2 gigs of ddr2 ram, and an Nvidia 9300 mobile gpu...

    Linux would be great in the home, if people planned ahaid, researched what they were buying, and planned on what OS they wanted to throw on it.

    I researched all my hardware before I purchased it, I knew what I could/wanted to run on it before I purchased it... In turn everything went smooth.

    To cover a few points, I am not a Linux "fan boy" or a MS "fan boy". I always say use what ever work, end of story. If you like Mac, use a Mac, if you like MS, then use it...

    Why would you try to run an OS that obviously would not play nice with the hardware? Now you are bashing a product, based on two things... You didn't plan ahaid and you didn't research it.

    Now what I would like you to do is install Windows 98 on your machine and let me know how the install went. If I apply most of your counters, Windows 98 doesn't belong in the home market either.

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    Slayer_

    "Out of the 5 PC's I use on a daily/weekly basis, 4 are xp, 1 Win7, and 3 Ubuntu."


    MATH FAIL!

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    LOL

    ---TK---

    I was waiting on someone to say that, I left out some information... the post would have been far to long...

    1. File server XP w/ ubuntu VM & XP VM (opensource torrents)/test machine
    2. Gaming rig - Win 7
    3. Media center - Ubuntu
    4. Laptop 1 - XP / ubuntu dual boot
    5. Laptop 2 - XP

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    CharlieSpencer

    The ones with the math coprocessor problems.

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    shodges119

    I admin around 150-200 Linux Desktops in separate locations. Red Hat and Ubuntu primarily, 40-50 Linux Servers, 10 Solaris Servers, 4500+ Windows Machines and 600+ Windows Servers. We have a staff of approximately 100 people in IT. And you know what... If configured correctly most of these posts are crap. I have a huge group of my customers running Linux at home for the security benefits it brings. I also run Windows and Linux at home. Yes some games do not run on Linux... Hey heres another secret there are a ton of games I have that won't run on Windows (And they are Free). Software Company's want to make money... Period, end of discussion. So they write Games to the work on the most computers possible. That ofcourse is Microsoft Windows. You want to know another dirty secret... Virus writers DO THE SAME THING. They write their code to affect the most computers possible. Also in this instance that is Microsoft Windows. Right now I am throughly impressed with Windows 7... Few minor issues but in comparison to anything else Microsoft has released it is great. XP got there but lets not lie it took a few Service Packs to get it right. Ubuntu/Redhat have done an amazing job at getting their operating system to work out of the box and the reference to the Graphics Card is 1 card out of 100,000. Your getting your cards from places that sell the software mentioned above. Why would anyone make a card for Linux? They make it for the biggest profit. Regardless in an effort to not type a book... Go buy a Video Card at Best buy and try to get it to work in your Apple G5. Guess what it won't. Does that mean that Apple has no place in the home. NO Apple sells you a complete system that works out of the box. Don't even think of trying to change out it's parts. Ok my end statment I promise... These types of posts are nothing but a this is my opinion and you better agree with it. Problem is it is based on your understanding and use of said operating system. I don't claim to be the end all be all but a blanket statement of Linux will never make it into the Home User market is not only bold but almost ridiculous. Buddy its all ready in the Home User Market... You just can't check Fortune Magazine and read about Bill Gates stock to judge that success.

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    Slayer_

    could be wrong, its a long thread already, but I am pretty sure the OP knows about how Apple does their business.

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    bobgroz

    Is it a myth wallmart stopped selling desktop computers preloaded with Linux? Is in a myth that newbies to linux have to wrestle with xorg.conf to configure their computers?

    Is a myth that at least 80% (and that's conservative) of all HOME COMPUTERS have windows on them?

    Maybe people at work use linux at home, but they know linux.

    I will not back down - windows is the BEST operating system for HOME USE period. Anybody that thinks otherwise AT THIS TIME is smoking drugs.

    Bob

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    bobgroz

    quit the old linux whining about marketing, Bill Gates,etc.

    If the people that put together Linux were so hot, people would be running it at home (why would anyone PAY for an operating system when there is one available for free?)

    And it's not just preloaded windows. Plenty of people I KNOW and I KNOW A LOT OF TECH PEOPLE run WINDOWS at HOME.

    I worked in a company that had well over 10,000 people in tech, and I talked to many of them about Linux, the reply was always the same..... "That's for work stuff, I run Windows at home".

    I do too, and I'm not sorry for it. I love windows 7. With good antivirus software (I prefer Norton antivirus suite), some good anti spyware software (like webroot) taking regular backups, I HAVE NEVER HAD A VIRUS BRING ME DOWN IN WELL OVER 15 YEARS.

    Sure there are no virus's on Linux, that's because nobody uses it at home!

    Until there is a much better and stable GuI, easy installation methods, support for all hardware that windows supports, and software (including games) selections that run easily without having to wrestle with things like wine (why do you think Cedaga has such hot thing going for linux gamers)

    LINUX WILL NEVER, I REPEAT NEVER OVERTAKE WINDOWS IN THE HOME ENVIRONMENT. THAT IS THE TRUTH, AND ANYBODY THAT THINKS LINUX IS GOING TO OVERTAKE WINDOWS IS JUST A FANBOY DREAMING IMPOSSIBLE DREAMS.

    I know the fanboys don't like this truth, I know you probably hate me for stating it, I know you blame everything from marketing to hardware vendors not writing drivers, to television advertising, to hate for Bill Gates, but none of that matters. The people responsible for putting Linux distro's together, and the people writing the software, the Gui's the drivers, the installation methods, the available software, until THESE people finally realize THEY have to do something about it by putting out a much better product for the HOME USER, this will NEVER change.

    Over and out.

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    Slayer_

    Trying to sound positive here, but the only thing I can agree on is linux needs commercial games.

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    jck

    Are you on drugs? :^0

    Listen...most people use a PC at home because of one of 3 reasons:

    1) It's what was on the PC they bought.
    2) People don't like to change.
    3) It's what was needed to run the games their kids wanted.

    Obviously, you never saw Kubuntu 8.10. Fantastic GUI, easy to use and navigate, etc.

    Anyways, I wish you luck with your happiness with Windows. You're right, so far Win 7 is pretty nice. But, I can power a Linux machine with a lot less hardware cost and take that money and buy me a new TV.

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    shodges119

    My post was not saying all the myths were posted by you. I was evaluating all the posts. Alot of myths about what Linux can and can not do.
    Chill be happy with your Windows Machine. I love mine.
    I will be happy with Linux and Windows in my home and the fact my Kids can build their own machines and never have Graphics problems shows it's not that hard if you understand which companies build cards that are dual compatible. Because I know your GeForce Card you bought for XP worked excellent on Vista from day one. And yes most people blamed MS. Guess what it was the vendor's problem there too.
    It really has more to do with ATI and NVidia Drivers than with anything Linux or Windows can fix.

    Also I know he didn't mention Apple. I did because they are now based on a Linux Kernel. OS-X and up are Linux Based Operating Systems so in a way Linux has two venues into the home.

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    Slayer_

    Been playing in nix distros since 2002, never heard of this thing, is it a file?

    What's it do?

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    Deadly Ernest

    for the X GUI. You only need to do anything to it if you run a version of Linux / Unix that doesn't have a GUI installed, or you have some weird and wonderful graphic card that doesn't even give a nodding acquaintance to the industry command sets, or you're running a 1990s version of Linux / Unix.

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    jck

    the last case is what bobgroz is dealing with.

    I'll send him an AM2+ CPU and motherboard, if you'll send him a small HD, decent video card and a 2009 or newer CD of any major Linux distro.

    I've never touched xorg and been using Kubuntu for...2-3 years?

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    Deadly Ernest

    to amend one line in the xorg.conf file because, in the words of the teacher "The garbage systems the college bought have got what's got to be the crappiest graphics card ever made." He had all the MS certs and taught two different MS certification classes as well. I heard he had the same thing to say about the systems when he had people loading Windows onto the same hardware. And that was back in 1998/99.

    Since I switched to using Linux instead of XP Pro (after I got fed up with having to call MS Aust every few months for a new authentication code) back in 2004, I've not had to touch or amend any .conf file at all. I don't know anyone who's amended their xorg.conf file since the late 1990s.

    Sadly, I've only got nVidea graphics cards, and he's already said he doesn't like them, so I can't send him one he'll like and use.

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    jck

    I have a spare ATI laying around surely. Maybe we can put $40 together and get him a single PCIe slot mobo with onboard graphics of the ATI variety.

    I still don't see what his beef is with nVidia. I'm running 2 8800GTSes in SLi under Kubuntu, and I never had to touch the xorg stuff.

    I did have to (in the early days of Kubuntu have to mess with the /etc/network stuff, but that was before built-in Atheros support and WPA was native. I had to load wpa supplicant and stuff and mess with ifconfig, iwconfig, etc.

    See, that's how I learned about Linux.

    That, and reading a LOT of wikis. :^0

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    Slayer_

    Which is too bad, cause every system I have that would be perfect candidate for Linux, has a SiS integrated video.

    My folks use our really cheap office systems at home (since going out of business).

    My gaming machine the only one with a proper graphics card. Though not a SLI 8800's. Not sure what you could possibly use that power for with Linux. I currently cruise around with my 9600.

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    jck

    My machine is dual boot. It's my old gaming rig for playing Shadowbane and Civilization II and Age of Empires and all that.

    As for SiS graphics, many of the new, low-end mobos have ATI integrated 3000 series on them.

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    bobgroz

    One of the most common problems in Linux is a broken GUI configuration. The X Windowing System (Xorg) is the most common GUI system in use on Linux systems today. Unlike the Windows GUI, (which is practically inextricable from the rest of the operating system) Xorg is simply a program that runs on top of the base Linux system. Because of this, it can be easily repaired.

    The X Windowing System uses a file called xorg.conf to maintain the GUI configuration. It contains information about your graphics hardware, the driver it uses, (in the case of NVIDIA or ATI devices) your available screen resolutions, and even settings for your input devices. The best way to avoid any problem is prevention, so you should always have at least one backup copy of important files like xorg.conf and be sure to save a copy of the current working version each you make any modifications to it.

    Don't panic if the worst happens and you find yourself without a working xorg.conf. The base system is probably still operational and it is possible to carry on without the GUI, although some distros might complain a bit if Xorg refuses to start. Many modern distros (like Mandriva, Ubuntu, and others) have a safe mode or recovery mode that provides a root-level command prompt.


    Read carefully BROKEN Gui system, COMMAND prompt, all rubbish in 2010.

    Yes, xorg.conf is a file, a very IMPORTANT file, as it contains the parameters for your video and other important hardware. If the GUI for xorg.conf breaks (and it does regularly with newer hardare), you must su to root and manually fix the file by hand.

    I don't think most home users have the talent or the will to do this.

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    Slayer_

    I've never had this happen before, and I've been using Linux systems for a long time now. Often on new hardware.


    Maybe that is whats wrong with my Mandriva VM?
    Neon, is this possible? You saw my video.

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    Neon Samurai

    I remember seeing your boot load up to a GUI background lacking the login prompt box. Since the GUI environment loaded, I'd be more inclined to guess that some of the damaged storage included the login application. This would be something behaving badly within in KDE more likely than Xorg.

    With Debian or another apt-get based distribution, it would likely have been a simple fix to identify the broken package or have current X related packages reinstalled.

    I'm still rather surprised that after probably close to a decade of mucking with various Linux distributions, and many of those years RPM based ones, I've never had a hard drive corruption to recover from. I've chewed X more than once and back in the days when it really was arcane magic to even config initially. These days, it just works on my hardware and I spend far less time maintaining and updating the system rather than doing stuff.

    In the end, if hardware manufacturers put the same effort into other platforms that they put into Windows, this would all be a non-issue. The ones that do provide cross platform drivers demonstrate this. The one's that do it right and release driver source or work directly with The Linux Driver Project, Kernel.org or X.org additionally gain the benefits of security and bug fixes along with faster development at lower cost.

    Not all make and model of cars are the same. Not all make and model of distributions are the same. That's really what it comes down too. One can't blame the faults of one Windows version on the others blindly. One can't blame the faults of one distribution on the other's blindly.

    I think our discussion originator needs to take a step back and a deep breath once they are don venting about whatever has them so bunched.

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    Slayer_

    Make yourself a virtual machine. Open up the virtual hard drive in a hex editor and change something (probably near start? not sure).

    Any change should cause a huge failure I'd figure. Perhaps equivalent to a bad cluster or two.

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    Neon Samurai

    If only to learn how to chew a drive in a similar way to your drive crash.

    In the past, partial installs, random hard reboots and some other HDD unkind things haven't managed to do it. I'll have to have a go of doing it intentionally.

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    Slayer_

    Could work? Portable HDD would be better.

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    Neon Samurai

    I wouldn't intentionally shake my workstation to induce physical damage as I'd be using a VM guest for testing (no spare hardware around anymore due to VMs). I'll have to find something that can induce file damage without hardware damage and within just th VM HDD space.

    If something gets decommissioned soon at work, I could also give it a half foot drop onto the workbench while it's working.

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    Neon Samurai

    X does hardware config on the fly during start up now in many distributions. Xorg.conf can still be used to supersede this but is more often not needed at all.

    If I break my Windows GUI, I don't have much recourse without backups or a recovery install. if I break my X, the natural separation between platform and GUI presentation layer means I have a chance of fixing my X with one or two easy commands.

    (I'll admit, I buy hardware known to work well across platforms which improves the behavior of all my platforms.)

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    bobgroz

    "X does hardware config on the fly during start up now in many distributions. Xorg.conf can still be used to supersede this but is more often not needed at all."

    Nice to have standards. Sometimes it's needed, sometimes it's not (but you can still use it), what a joke.

    I've never had a windows gui crash. In fact, all the family and friends I have supported over the year have never reported that problem to me.

    If it does happen, it can always be fixed by safe mode or if that does't work there are tools on the installation disk to take care of problems like that.

    Now the Linux Gui, that's a whole new ballgame. I've had crashes, dumps, been thrown into a command prompt, etc., especiall when upgrading to current hardare (espeially graphics hardware - i.e. video cards).

    No HOME USER is going to put up with that crap. When they install their shiny new ATI or NIVIDIA video card, the GUI won't crash, games will look fantastic and they will have many more game choices than tux.

    Don't BS me and tell me the Linux GUI is better than even XP's GUI. And compared to windows 7, linux lags even further behind.

    Xorg.conf is an important part of ALL linux distributions, no matter what you say. I have many times have had to go into it and modify it's contents by hand with no GUI help. Thankfully I understand the file and can manage it. But most HOME USERS don't even know it's there.

    BTW the "Linux guru" that posted and didn't even know what xorg.conf is, should order some updated books on Linux and learn about the changes to the newer distros....

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    Neon Samurai

    So let me get this strait. Your claiming that X.org being able to configure it's hardware during setup or read settings out of a config file is a disadvantage of some sort? Do you also take issue with this strange ability for people to buy a car from more than just Ford in more colours than just black?

    And do you really want to get into a discussion about standards given the frequency with which Microsoft breaks standards in the name of higher profits rather than better end user experience?

    "have never reported that problem to me"

    If my support guy was as close minded as you apear to be. I'd go elsewhere for help also.

    "Don't BS me and tell me the Linux GUI is better than even XP's GUI. And compared to windows 7, linux lags even further behind."

    Ah.. I see.. you don't actually know what your talking about. Which Linux GUI, which Linux distribution, What version. When was the last time you looked at modern distributions? How many of win7 and Vista's GUI elements existed in no other DE previous to the finally delivered Longhorn?

    I've had no trouble with Nvidia on Debian or Windows. Sinister has had no issues with Mind and, what I'm guessing is, a pretty bleeding edge beast of a GPU. When your done venting this frustration you've work yourself into, would you like some help getting your system working? Or did you just want to continue making claims without any hands-on experience?

    Also, the "Linux guru" as you contemptiously refer to SinsisterSlay is actually a fellow Windows user primarily and an extremely heavy gamer to boot. They are actually fairly new to Linux based platforms as more than just a five minute look. I dare say that they offer a far more educated and balanced opinion than anything you've had to say thus far. (I say "they" meaning a single person because gender is irrelevant and I didn't want to specify either way)

    Tell me again about how everyone is blindly attributing falsehoods to your character with you only the poor victim trying to defend yourself from accusation and injustice cause I don't think that joke is ever getting old.


    (PS; I'm still waiting to hear about that website you posted due to medication caused harm. Completely separate from our disagreement on technology, that is a topic with real life consequences. The bottom of this comment is not the best place for a re-request of the URL. private message it over if you like but I'd be honestly interested to read it over.)

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    Slayer_

    I don't think you can stroke that part of my ego.

    Still trying to figure out why when I click Save config in Mint on the display settings, it comes up saying "Cannot Parse xorg.conf".

    Also can't seem to get it to project to my TV screen (Hooked up via PC-VGA plug). It knows it's there but it keeps saying no signal. I assume there should be an easy way to do it. It's the nVidia control panel, so I cannot really blame the distro. Though I had a look at the distros native config and it's nasty looking.
    So far I am doing beyond what a home user should do. Considering I know some complete computer ignorants set up their HD TV's on their own, attached to a computer. XP/Vista/W7 made it too easy. Restart your computer and suddenly it knows you have two monitors. Click the Extend Screen checkbox and it magically works.

    Also got to find a better video players for Linux. The default one in Mint works and can play all my files BUT it lacks a lot of options I want. Such as ability to remember song position, ability to use different rendering methods, and ability to change sound device (so it uses the integrated sound and thus uses the TV's speakers rather than the PC speakers).


    -Edit
    A thought, maybe it doesn't have a xorg file. Failed to parse could be a general error handle for any sort of error during saving. I am just using a USB version with perm storage on it, so that could be it.

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    Deadly Ernest

    or the nVidea one? I ask, as to save to a .conf file usually requires you to be in Super User or Root mode and some third party apps are not that good at triggering the SU mode.

    I'm no Linux guru either, with only a few years actual proper experience with it, but I do find my copy of O'Reilly 'Linux in a Nutshell' very useful to understand what's happening, in general. I first had exposure to Linux back in 1998 with red Hat 6 in a college class I was doing as one of those needed to get the qualifications to say I know what I'd been doing for the last couple of decades, but never got around to doing much with Linux until I dumped XP to go to something that wouldn't crash and burn every few months due to Microsoft corrupting what had been a good install with a forced update it wouldn't let me refuse.

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    Slayer_

    I should be the super user far as I know (i never get prompted for a password before doing any other changes)

    But it sounds kind of dumb that it would require administrative rights to do something simple like change resolution.

    so its
    chmod 777 /etc/xorg.conf
    ? for all permissions to everyone for that file?

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    Deadly Ernest

    as 777 means anyone can change it at any time - you may wish to make the change and then run a chmod 555 to restrict everyone to read and execute ability only. The full command should be

    chmod 777 filename

    chmod 555 filename

    the filename should also include the path on how to get there from where you are, unless you've already switched to the directory the file is in. In my system the xorg.conf is in the path //etc/X11/ so giving the command from root would be:

    chmod 777 etc/X11/xorg.conf

    or

    chmod 777 //etc/X11/xorg.conf

    depending upon how that Linux distribution is looking for the path information to be formated. If I move to the X11 directory first, then it's a simple:

    chmod 777 xorg.conf

    NOTE: This will only work if you are already root or the user you are already has the right permissions to change that file in that folder.

    Damn, haven't done that sort of command line stuff for ages, but a quick read of Linux in a Nutshell, and a bit of memory of all the times I've done that stuff in DOS and the one class on Unix and one on Linux back in 1998, and it all comes back to me.

    My most command command line stuff today is still basic DOS stuff on Windows boxes, usually a ping or ipconfig or iprenew command to fix network problems because different versions of Windows don't like playing with others.

    edit to add

    The Linux permissions can be given in a couple of ways, but the easiest are as a three digit number. Each digit is a value for a user level: User - Group - Others. The values are: Read - 4, Write - 2, Execute -1 and you add together the values you wish applied. Thus read/write/execute = 7 while read/write = 6, read/execute = 5, execute only = 1 etc. So a read/write/execute for the user is 7 in the first spot, a read/execute for the group is 5 in the second spot, and a read only for others is a 1 in the third spot, making it 751. So 777 is read/write/execute for all, the best for general usage is 555 to give read and execute permissions to everyone; or 755 giving the user who created the file full permission and limiting others to read and execute.

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    Neon Samurai

    With chmod, "7" means read/write/executable. making xorg.conf executable will likely only return an error if it somehow gut run but adding 777 to a file blindly is just a bad habbit to get into. This is like putting all user accounts in the Administrator's group rather than properly managing privileged setting on Windows.

    If you must open up permissions on that file at least leave out the executable bit; chmod 666 xorg.conf (resulting in read/write owner, group, world). This isn't great but it's much better than blindly 777 everything. Either way, remember to give it a chmod 644 (owner read/write, group read, world read) once your done with it being opened up.

    Other options would be using "kdesu nvidiaconfig" where you'll have to replace nvidiaconfig with whatever the config's correct name is. You could do that from the start menu's Run command (like Start -> Run) or from a terminal window (xterm, eterm, konsole..). You should then be asked for a root password in the same way that Windows Runas works. You'll at least be sure that kdesu is running it with root privileged.

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    jck

    Is it a myth wallmart stopped selling desktop computers preloaded with Linux?

    Wal-Mart based it on profit, not usability of the Linux OS.

    Is in a myth that newbies to linux have to wrestle with xorg.conf to configure their computers?

    Yes, that would be a myth. I've not had to touch xorg.conf yet in Kubuntu.

    Is a myth that at least 80% (and that's conservative) of all HOME COMPUTERS have windows on them?

    Over 90% of Home PCs are Windows, but again not because of Linux unusability.

    See, Microsoft had a 12 year headstart and money as a commercial enterprise to fund it.

    Most Linux innovation has come out of enthusiast, student projects, etc., up until about 2003 or so.

    Maybe people at work use linux at home, but they know linux.

    I know all my Linux from experimentation at home, and even implemented it at a job because of it.

    I will not back down - windows is the BEST operating system for HOME USE period. Anybody that thinks otherwise AT THIS TIME is smoking drugs.

    A) I don't do drugs...sorry to burst your bubble

    B) Depends on your idea of best.

    Windows = best for software availability: Yes.
    Windows = best for availability in stores: Yes

    But...

    Windows = easier to use for a total newbie to computers? No.
    Windows = cheaper? No
    Windows = more stable? No
    Windows = more secure out of the box? No (through Vista)
    Windows = more support? No

    To a TOTALLY new person, Linux is just as easy to sit down with an Ubuntu for Dummies book and learn as it would be with a Windows PC and a copy of Windows 7 for Dummies.

    If your idea of "best" is the ability to get any game, sure Windows has the advantage. Of course, Windows was the *only* major player for a decade after Mac initially crapped out in about 1989.

    In reference to Kubuntu Linux:

    Linux is very usable. Linux is very fast. Linux is very secure. Linux has wizards. Linux has an updater to let you update and keep your machine secure and running well and get the latest version.

    And best of all.

    Linux is free, and so is most of the software for it.

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    shodges119

    I chose not to break out his comments that way but someone had to.

    I took it that no one would change his mind. Misled as it is, it is his opinion.

    I would love to sit him down beside me and have him configure a Windows box and I configure a Ubuntu box on the same hardware. I think he would be absolutely amazed how far it has come.

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    jck

    I mean, I just loaded a box with a Windows XP Professional x64, Windows 7 Professional x64, and Kubuntu 9.10 x64 triple boot.

    I can tell you for a fact, Kubuntu Linux was the fastest to configure the installation.

    When I booted all 3, Kubuntu asked me for no drivers. It had even configured my Wireless-N card.

    The only thing I had to load? ATI's Linux-based Catalyst solution with the 9.12 drivers.

    Windows XP and 7 Pro x64s both asked me for device drivers after reboot.

    So, the Kubuntu install was the easiest and fastest.

    I can understand a lot of people think Windows is the "best" because you can get the most games, more computer stores/shops support Windows, etc.

    But, Linux has since I started using it back in college (around '91 or '92) has come a LONG way. I mean, Linux back then was basically like DOS 4 or 5. And with something like Yggadrasil Linux, getting X11Rn to work was a nightmare.

    But now, installing Kubuntu Linux is like Windows:

    - Put in the CD/DVD
    - Boot from it
    - Make username, timezone, language, install partition, GRUB boot decisions
    - Let it install
    - Remove CD/DVD and Reboot

    And soon, I'll be working with Wine to see if I can actually run some Windows software from an NTFS partition.

    If so, I'll be playing Shadowbane through Wine when the Emu project gets completed.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Ubuntu is an experiment at an appliance user's OS.

    The rest of your argument is rubbish, for one simple reason. Go to your loacl highstreet dealer, try and buy a box with Ubuntu installed....

    Can't can you?
    Why is that do you think? If you want to know why Ubuntu isn't seriously competing in the home appliance market, follow the money...

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    bobgroz

    YOU prove to ME that UBUNtU supports a Raedon 5790.

    Can't do it, can you? I can't even get a desktop, for crying out loud. Linux is business only - and for hardware that is at least 1 year old if not older. Sorry, Tony, you're just plain wrong......

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    Slayer_

    Ubuntu supports a GTX295 no problem because nVidia makes drivers for Linux.

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    bobgroz

    i don't care about fault. all i know is linux isn't cutting it. you guys always blame somebody else. write your own drivers if the manufacturer won't. sorry, as a home user i need a computer display, and i don't give a crap whose fault it is. windows works, linux doesn't. therefore i use windows. i am not alone in this thinking. you linux heads just can't see the sun through the clouds. do you really think mr. and mrs. america cares whose fault it is because their desktop won't come up? NO! They will just buy the product that works. This is why linux will NEVER, and I repeat NEVER get into the home.

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    Slayer_

    I dislike Linux, who you calling "You People"?


    There are drivers for it, just install them, same way you do Windows. Linux will use base drivers so you can see what your doing, just like Windows. Then you must browse to the website manually and download and install the drivers OR just click the distros detect hardware, which seems to, pretty commonly, find the driver for you, give you options as to which version, download, and install it.

    Even wireless drivers seem to work good, I tried it, I had a wireless USB, it had both windows and linux drivers, I used the wrapper program to use the windows drivers, worked perfect, used the Linux drivers, worked perfect.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Redmond?

    Hello, anybody in?

    Now I'd be the first to agree that it doesn't matter to ma and pa browser who hasn't done what, but for those that would like to unf*ck the situation, appreciating the various motivations, is job 1.

    I don't give a crap what drivers Ubuntu has, it's security model is f'ed out of the box, so I won't use it. If that's a requirement I'll stick with winders and get the driver....

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    bobgroz

    see my post above about the situation. nobody cares whose fault it is their hardware doesn't work. people will buy what works..... PERIOD. And that is NOT linux in the home.

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    Slayer_

    You currently buy hardware that works for Windows, why not get hardware that works for Linux.

    To sum that up, avoid ATI, avoid anything software controlled (winmodem..... *shivers*).


    If you get yourself proper hardware, you will be fine.

    ****, even laptop wireless works now, they got this terribly named program that allows you to use windows drivers on Linux for those really really cheaply made laptops.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    A couple of distros didn't work for me, but SimplyMepis went on like a charm. You keep saying Linux, but you mean distro. Go to distro watch, look at the popular ones and you'll find one that will meet the hardware needs except for the oldest and newest kit.

    If you want plug in and go, windows is your best choice, it isn't mine or a lot of others. It's another choice, take it or leave it.

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    Deadly Ernest

    applies to hardware that's designed, from scratch, to work with that specific version of Windows. Change the version of Windows and that doesn't happen. Get an item that's plug in and go for Win 7 and then see how well it works with XP - usually it doesn't, and ditto with the reverse. That's why the little boxes now have the Windows version on the side, just under the Windows Compatible sticker.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Plug in and go also included pre-installation, which is THE big difference. If that was possible Bob wouldn't be posting.

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    Deadly Ernest

    a Linux that just turns on and go, he can get a couple from Dell as they have a few (five on my last check) that come with Ubuntu Linux pre-installed and all set to run. Sadly, they are only available off their web site, and they're hard to find on it, and also they aren't the top end machines they sell either.

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    Deadly Ernest

    that kowtows to Microsoft and builds their gear to suit only Windows and then doesn't write a driver for it to work properly using the Industry Standard Commands, and you blame Ubuntu - right, the blame for that is with Radeon not Ubuntu as Linux is designed to work with the Industry Standards, not some proprietary stuff meant to take control of your gear off you.

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    bobgroz

    see my post above. i don't care whose fault it is hardware doesn't work with linux. i don't care, and millions of other home users don't care. we just want our computers to work.

    go ahead and use linux with your moldy old hardware, i don't care. i'm sticking with an operating system that gives me a display with my hardware. i don't give a crap why it does not work in linux, it just doesn't. it works with windows, therefore i will stick with windows.

    if you guys think it's amd or ati's fault do something about it for crying out loud. this has been going on ever since linux hit the scene.

    my tv card never worked under linux, never. oh there's some complicated software out there that might work with my tv card, but i have to have a master's degree in computer science to MAYBE get it to work. And that's after hours and days of work.

    windows media center found it, installed the drivers, and works perfectly with my tv tuner card.

    i want to USE my computer, not constantly DEBUG it

    You guys will never understand. You are all brainwashed.

    Linux = business; Windows - HOME

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    Deadly Ernest

    you want it to because you bought a piece of equipment that has restricted usage. that's kind of like buying some real fancy car wheel and tyres, then insisting no other car is as good as the one you had to buy to put them on, simply because they fit that car.

    You have a graphics card which was deliberately badly programmed, and are now restricted to using Windows, all i can say is:

    Welcome to the world of MS locked in computing, as in Trusted Computing, and get ready to keep forking out money into the MS bank account while they take total control of it.

    please see:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing

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    bobgroz

    and DO something about it! Quit blaming Microsoft because ATI doesn't work on Linux. Why hasn't any of the Linux gurus written some drivers that work? You're not taking away MY freedom of choice when it comes to hardware with lame excuses about marketing, etc. I don't care. I just want my hardware to WORK.

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    Deadly Ernest

    to love Windows so much, I doubt you'll ever see that. Microsoft deliberately choose to go against industry standards, as a result anything that follows a particular version of Microsoft Windows is non compliant with the industry and other versions of Windows - that is a Microsoft created issue, and no one else's. When a hardware company chooses to follow Microsoft and design the Microsoft commands in at the hardware level, they abet the problem.

    With regards to your graphics card, the problem is caused by Microsoft and ATI, not by Linux.

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    bobgroz

    You blame ATI for not having drivers for linux, won't accept responsibility for this (not you personally, but those who put linux distros together) and then staunchly support Nvidia because they support linux. But wait! They have "closed standards" just like internet explorer!

    It's true. Google CUDA or PHYSX. Both are closed source - not available on any GPU license. What is it deadly support for a closed standards product, just because they write drivers for Linux.

    You're just another deceived Linux fanboy.

    You think the whole world would be happy with nothing but linux. That's because you spent time working with it, and now you can act like a hotshot techie on boards and stuff.

    you don't impress me as knowing very much. I figure you are a guy with little to moderate linux knowledge, maybe you have built a couple of PC's, that's about it. Nothing too special.

    You are so blinded. Anyone who thinks linux is ready now for home use is absolutely either a linux fanboy or off their nut.

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    Slayer_

    He's against manufacturer lock in.

    nVidia has put the effort in to make a control centre and working drivers for Linux.

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    jck

    You blame ATI for not having drivers for linux, won't accept responsibility for this (not you personally, but those who put linux distros together) and then staunchly support Nvidia because they support linux. But wait! They have "closed standards" just like internet explorer!

    1) ATI does have drivers for Linux. I provided you links to the driver as well as the whitepaper that showed you that everything through the 5890 was supported under Linux. So, that is wrong.
    (P.S. to #1 - Windows 7 did not come with ATI 5xxx series drivers either...)

    2) What does an open source driver have to do getting your video to work? ATI and nVidia both have Linux drivers for their latest cards which you have to download from their site.

    It's true. Google CUDA or PHYSX. Both are closed source - not available on any GPU license. What is it deadly support for a closed standards product, just because they write drivers for Linux.

    That would be because CUDA and PhysX are proprietary technologies in regards to the computational technology onboard the video card, not the driver interface to the operating system.

    ATI does the same thing with CrossFire and FireStream.

    You're just another deceived Linux fanboy.

    You seem to be just trying to stir the pot.

    You think the whole world would be happy with nothing but linux. That's because you spent time working with it, and now you can act like a hotshot techie on boards and stuff.

    Hm. Ernest has never acted like a hot shot. He usually just states facts.

    you don't impress me as knowing very much. I figure you are a guy with little to moderate linux knowledge, maybe you have built a couple of PC's, that's about it. Nothing too special.

    Unnecessary.

    You are so blinded. Anyone who thinks linux is ready now for home use is absolutely either a linux fanboy or off their nut.

    I guess I'm off my nut. I use Linux almost every day (whether self-loaded or VM) at home.

    Has worked perfect for me, and saved me about $500 in costs instead of buying Windows.

    Just because Ernest sees that you can do more with Linux than you realize isn't a reason to make mean comments toward him.

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    bobgroz

    It's all microsofts fault. It'sall ATI's fault, it's all NVIDIA's fault, everybody is at fault because Linux can't compete with windows for the desktop market at home.

    Please quit the whining. Either do something innovative about it, or don't post. Excuses, excuses, it's so wearing.

    And I'm not a WINDOWS lover, I love OPERATING SYSTEMS and spend lots of time with all of them.

    Linux's strengths are not for the home dekstop market. It has a decent web server and some other server services, and it can run on old moldy hardware, but to even imply it's better than windows for the home user is a statement made out of ignorance.

    Most of the people in this thread are liux fanboys and I just can't believe they cannot see the obvious. Thank goodness for those in this thread that have aknowledged the problems of Liux in the Home Desktop market. At least there are still some honest, technically alert people left in the linux community.

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    bobgroz

    Just to clear things up, Earnest or Deadly whatever his hame is insulted me first by implying I only buy computers with windows software pre- installed.

    That's a rip at a systems programmer who has installed more operating systems, probably 10 times as many times as him. Just follow the thread and read his rip at me.

    I'm not going to go whimpering away when I get ripped for no reason and lies are told about my technical expertise.

    And jck, if you really think Linux is a better desktop system for a Home User, you are just plain out of touch with reality.

    Linux is immature, breaks easily (especially when attemping changes), and has a gui that stinks to high heaven. A gui, by the way that was copied from Microsoft.

    Don't tell linux developed the start button with cascading windows. That has been a windows staple for years.

    Remember I AM TALKING ABOUT HOME USERS. PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WATCH TV ON THEIR COMPUTER, PEOPLE WHO WANT THE LATEST CAMERA'S AND SCANNERS, PEOPLE WHO WANT EASY APPLICATION INSTALLATIONS AND A WIDE CHOICE OF APPLICATIONS THEY CAN USE.

    AT THIS TIME LINUX FAILS IN ALL OF THESE AREAS. INSTALLATION OF PROGRAMS STINKS.

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    Neon Samurai

    I see other people acknowledging that Windows may not be the best solution for every user yet all of your comments come down to Windows being the one true way and anything else heresy.

    Your comment above starts out great explaining the issue between you and Deadly. You feel that Deadly is blindly attributing things too you which are not true such as being a new-comer to computing. You then turn around and insult JCK by blindly claiming that Windows is the only possible desktop OS for users and one is plain stupid for thinking any different.

    Lovely demonstration of the close minded opinions you claim to be railing against. It's ok for you to demand that everyone use your prefered desktop OS yet completely unacceptible if someone suggests cases where an alternative OS works juts as well. Since this is a black or white issue for you with no possible middle ground.. I don't see what purpose any further technology talk with you could possibly have.

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    Deadly Ernest

    the circle of Bob's reasoning and deliberate misrepresentation of some things. That's why I said goodbye to Bob back in my post of Feb first.

    http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=324730&messageID=3235932

    after his

    http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=324730&messageID=3235913

    where he also called me a nut. He kept saying that Windows always 'just goes on and works with no tweaking.' And goes on about how great Win 7 is. I've installed Windows, except Win 3.11 sitting on DOS 6, on thousands of machines, and I've never had a case of Windows goes 'going on and working.' It's always required tweaking and adjustment, and usually extra drivers and reboots - EXCEPT when it's a pre-built machine from a retail outlet, which is what the majority of the Home User Market are.

    He claims Win 7 'just installs and works straight up and is never any trouble.' Well, I've seen Win 7 installed on a dozen machines, all certified Win 7 ready or compatible, and it's never happened that way. I've seen people, and help them troubleshoot, problem after problem with Win 7. ****, we see regular threads here at TR where people are asking for help with Win 7 problems. All proving the 'just works' claim wrong. But none of that is acceptable. That's why I said goodbye, and no longer reply to Bob, although I keep reading every post in this thread, just in case anything interesting comes up. But since everything Bob's posting now is just a rehash of what he's previously said, except for complaint and insults about me, I've nothing to say to him. He won't listen or consider anything but what he's already decide on, no place for any discussion to actually take place.

    Anyway, have fun, some of the side discussions you've had with Sinister are very interesting, and I enjoy them, as well as find them useful.

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    Slayer_

    That's always a good solid (nutty) way to solve an argument.

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    jck

    Just to clear things up, Earnest or Deadly whatever his hame is insulted me first by implying I only buy computers with windows software pre- installed.

    Hm. Well from looking back, Ernest simply derived that your opinion was probably based in the fact that you haven't truly worked with Linux enough to really know its true ease of use vs that of Windows which you are obviously more familiar with.

    Insulting? Not nearly as much as you calling him everything short of an idiot.

    That's a rip at a systems programmer who has installed more operating systems, probably 10 times as many times as him. Just follow the thread and read his rip at me.

    Actually, I've been a programmer/senior programmer/software engineer/systems analyst/implementation analyst type for more than 15 years. I can tell you, I've probably installed more OSes/setup more drives than you, since I've been using PCs since about 1981.

    I'm not going to go whimpering away when I get ripped for no reason and lies are told about my technical expertise.

    Well, your ripping back does little to show it. Perhaps giving specific, technical examples of why you're right would prove your point better.

    And jck, if you really think Linux is a better desktop system for a Home User, you are just plain out of touch with reality.

    As I've pointed out, Linux is better for some reasons while Windows is better for other reasons. Both have their strong suits and weak points.

    Linux is immature, breaks easily (especially when attemping changes), and has a gui that stinks to high heaven. A gui, by the way that was copied from Microsoft.

    I've not had issues with changing hardware under Ubuntu or Kubuntu since 8.1x (or something to that effect).

    As for GUIs stinking, KDE's latest in Kubuntu...yeah I would say it isn't the greatest.

    As for it being copied from Windows? Transparent windowing that was in Vista and is in 7 were both copied from other OSes. The Trash Can (Recycle Bin) as well as the "X" for closing a window were copied into Windows...not from it. So, Microsoft has done their fair share of lifting ideas from others. They are no pure-at-heart innovator.

    Don't tell linux developed the start button with cascading windows. That has been a windows staple for years.

    Actually, Unix variants have had cascading Windows (that I know of) since the Curses interfacing libraries back in the 1980s. I worked with it in college. So, Microsoft didn't innovate cascading, tiling or otherwise with Windows.

    Remember I AM TALKING ABOUT HOME USERS. PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WATCH TV ON THEIR COMPUTER, PEOPLE WHO WANT THE LATEST CAMERA'S AND SCANNERS, PEOPLE WHO WANT EASY APPLICATION INSTALLATIONS AND A WIDE CHOICE OF APPLICATIONS THEY CAN USE.

    Most home users don't watch TV on their computer. Movies...maybe. TV? Not so much. Only if they miss a show, and usually nowadays they use TIVO for that.

    As for installing the latest hardware, I have bought cameras, USB flash drives, SSDs, a laptop, etc etc etc., within the past 6 months...and none of them have had an issue working with Kubuntu 9.x. None. Zero.

    AT THIS TIME LINUX FAILS IN ALL OF THESE AREAS. INSTALLATION OF PROGRAMS STINKS.

    I don't know what version of Linux you have, but you should look at other distros.

    You obviously don't have the luck with yours that I have had with mine.

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    j-mart

    It is what works for you in a given situation.
    As I do not use my home computer for games, windows with its requirement for constant attention to anti-virus to keep it usable, is way too much work to be worth the effort to be on my home network connected to the Internet. A standard install of Debian on fairly standard hardware works with minimal effort. I am not an IT pro and neither are my children, and having Debian as a basic browser / multi-media workstation only requires average intelligence and the ability to read instructions to get working well, and once set up will stay working for years with minimal ongoing time consuming maintenance, much less than required by a windows system.

    As I have stated, it is all relative to what you use your machine for, and for a significant percentage of home users Linux would be much better than the Microsoft product. An off the shelf Linux box marketed correctly to this type of home user could be a good thing, but as as the revenue stream, and how to get you hands on it, is understood by the home computer industry. Linux boxes running faultlessly for years and years do not bring in the regular cash as the Microsoft box with its constant need for attention and poor use of a machine's resources.

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    jck

    You mean 5970?

    Ubuntu should load a default ATI driver, and you can get the ATI Catalyst software for Linux from AMD's site.


    ATI Desktop Product Family Support
    The ATI Catalyst? Linux software suite is designed to support the following ATI
    desktop products:
    AMD Desktop Product Family Support
    ATI Radeon? HD 5900 Series..."


    https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/674/9206/0/www2.ati.com/drivers/linux/catalyst_101_linux.pdf

    That's the document to prove it.

    http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/linux/Pages/radeon_linux.aspx?type=2.4.1&product=2.4.1.3.42&lang=English

    There's where you can download your ATI Catalyst Software for Linux.

    You should be able to take it from there.

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    Slayer_

    ATI Catalyst control centre is a .Net2 program, which is why I hate it, what's it do for Linux?

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    bobgroz

    i hate to break your heart,, but amd or ati does not have anything to support the 5890 (single card with crossfire capability). You are wrong. Give me a screen shot proving you have this card working. I'll bet if you even DID get it working it took your hours of farting around to do it.

    I'll stick with windows for my home use, thank you. It is a good operating system, especially windows 7.

    you're blind hatred for microsoft has you blinded to the truth. Modern hardware doesn't work with Linux over 80% of the time. Also, there's the whole games issue that I won't even get into.

    I'd like to see a screenshot of somebody playing crysis under linux with an acceptable framerate and directx 10 support with depth of field capability.

    No, you can't produce a screenshot of that, because it ain't happening in linux. Not now, and by the time they DO figure it out, there will be new current tech out that won't work. Keep linux in the workplace for the professionals. That's where it belongs. Not in the home.

    I'm sure you all heard of the wallmart debacle with linux.

    They were selling computers with linux pre installed for the home user. It was a disaster. They have since withdrawn from linux, because nobody bought it.

    Maybe 2% of you out there enjoy debugging and troubleshooting. I don't. I just want to use my computer. Period. And that is NOT linux.

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    Slayer_

    If ATI cards are too dumbf**ked to even use common drivers for their own cards, time to change brands.

    All nVidia drivers are the same for current generations and many past generations. The same drivers for the gtx295will operate a 7200.

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    j-mart

    Than ATI have been in recent times and at present provide better drivers than ATI with much less drama. I used to prefer ATI cards but with much better customer support Nvida is my preffered card now.

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    Deadly Ernest

    the Microsoft and ATI proprietary stuff. Your choice, and you have a right to make it, but that's not a fault of Linux.

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    Slayer_

    Many many game engines are designed to use nVidia's API and even more now to use PhysX.

    ATI lost that race badly, they never even left the starting gate.

    ATI is so bad now, to make any changes to your video card setting, you REQUIRE .Net2 to be installed. It's like they never thought anything through.

    I am currently using an nForce board with an AMD processor and nVidia graphics, the power and stability it produces is impressive. I can do up to a 20% overclock with no stability issues or heat issues, and the tools work both in Windows and Linux. Both versions are on the mobo CD.

    I used ATI a long time ago, the "Composite" setting and "Gaming Mode" was particularly nice, it produced great results in the CRT days, but now, it's just pointless.
    For nVidia, to supplement those two things, I use RivaTuner, can't even do that with an ATI card anymore. So if game decides to run in 640 x 480, it will drop the refresh rate to 60hz and thus, slide the displayed picture off to the left side of my screen. (Composite screen kept your screen centred, always, Gaming mode kept your refresh rate at max)


    I'd like to end this message with, the final choice of video card brand is up to each individual to decide based on their needs.

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    jck

    Look to all GPGPU / CPU makers to institute OpenCL.

    I just hope it ends up being as good as it sounds. If so, I might go from client/server into programming for those.

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    Slayer_

    It solves the issue of coding on other platforms, but really, that was never much of a problem anyways. I think it's still the DirectX stupidity. Why game engine programmers continue to use such a crappy API is beyond me.

    OpenCL "sounds" like a CUDA replacement, not a PhysX replacement. That's how I read the wiki anyways.

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    jck

    OpenCL is an effort to develop cross-processor, where as CUDA is designed to take advantage only of parallel computation on the nVidia GPU platform.

    That was just my take on it tho. I didn't get to read all the white papers and such.

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    Slayer_

    What does that mean?

    I am only a simple solutions programmer

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    jck

    nVidia is developing their own GPGPU parallel architecture for implementation.

    ATI has taken to working with the OpenCL implementation, which was handed off to and is managed now by an independent group that is working between the GPU makers and some CPU and embedded processor makers to develop a programming platform that will provide a common framework for parallelism on various processing hardware.

    At least, that's what I understood.

    I really would like to see all the processor makers play nice and adopt some sort of standard for parallelism so that we can benefit from it. Otherwise, you get all the hub-bub involved with having to choose a video card based on what games you play, what OS you run, and how the hardware performs with them.

    It's just a wait and see thing now.

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    Slayer_

    They have a good habit of retrofitting old cards with new drivers for new features and new technologies.

    Although admittedly, I am uncertain as to how ATI handles existing cards when they release new technologies.

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    jck

    I have bought nVidia for years and years.

    When I built my new gaming rig, I got 2x 5850s from ATI. Although the initial driver was a bit flakey, the 9.12 update fixed pretty much everything.

    As for backward maintenance, ATI Catalyst and nVidia Control Center are pretty much the same thing. I think they both pretty much quit working on old old drivers at some point, but my 7000 series nVidias still get new OS support just like my old ATIs do.

    Although, I don't think they make Win 95 or 98 or ME drivers for any of the new cards. lol :^0

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    bobgroz

    then I'd be walking into closed source code with Nvidia's push for CUDA and PHYSX. I thought you guys were against closed source?

    Hmmmmm. There's some serious psychosis going on around here. At least very much confusion. I think anyone reading this thread would say...."Typical Linux BS."

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    Slayer_

    I make several free closed source programs. I can't be against them.

    Open source != Free

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    jck

    CUDA is nVidia's computational parallel model.

    PhysX is a middleware SDK for physics rendering onboard rather than in the game software.

    PhysX is available for Linux. However since it is a proprietary software pertaining to the processing for the video subsystem, it is hence *not* part of the interface to the OS and not a "driver".

    CUDA is the parallel computation in the GPU. Therefore, it is not a driver either.

    Needless to say, neither are PhysX is a SDK and you should be able to program against it openly.

    CUDA is their hardware architecture and probably has open interfaces for Linux drivers to program calls to it.

    The Linux driver source are probably somewhere out there.

    Have you gone and looked for them?