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  • #2197816

    linux will never compete with windows in the home market

    Locked

    by bobgroz ·

    linux is a business OS period. It is unix based and requires a lot of knowledge. The average person cannot handle it’s quirk’s.

    Something is always wrong. Especially if you have current hardware. I doubt very much Ubuntu or any linux distro will support the ATI 5870 or 5890. You won’t even get a screen. The display code will blow up, and personally I don’t have the hours to spend trying to get current hardware working with linux.

    Windows 7, while being more expensive, is LIGHTYEARS ahead of any linux distro for the HOME user.

    Keep linux where it belongs, in the business segment. It will never achieve home desktop success. never.

    sorry folks, that’s just the way it is.

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    • #2838853

      Linux is an experimenter’s OS

      by tony hopkinson ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      Ubuntu is an experiment at an appliance user’s OS.

      The rest of your argument is rubbish, for one simple reason. Go to your loacl highstreet dealer, try and buy a box with Ubuntu installed….

      Can’t can you?
      Why is that do you think? If you want to know why Ubuntu isn’t seriously competing in the home appliance market, follow the money…

      • #3021042

        I guarantee you Ubuntu will NOT have drivers for my video card

        by bobgroz ·

        In reply to Linux is an experimenter’s OS

        YOU prove to ME that UBUNtU supports a Raedon 5790.

        Can’t do it, can you? I can’t even get a desktop, for crying out loud. Linux is business only – and for hardware that is at least 1 year old if not older. Sorry, Tony, you’re just plain wrong……

        • #3021041

          AMD’s fault, not Ubuntu

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to I guarantee you Ubuntu will NOT have drivers for my video card

          Ubuntu supports a GTX295 no problem because nVidia makes drivers for Linux.

        • #3030582

          i don’t care whose fault it is, i can’t use ubuntu or any other linux

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to AMD’s fault, not Ubuntu

          i don’t care about fault. all i know is linux isn’t cutting it. you guys always blame somebody else. write your own drivers if the manufacturer won’t. sorry, as a home user i need a computer display, and i don’t give a crap whose fault it is. windows works, linux doesn’t. therefore i use windows. i am not alone in this thinking. you linux heads just can’t see the sun through the clouds. do you really think mr. and mrs. america cares whose fault it is because their desktop won’t come up? NO! They will just buy the product that works. This is why linux will NEVER, and I repeat NEVER get into the home.

        • #3030449

          You people?

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to i don’t care whose fault it is, i can’t use ubuntu or any other linux

          I dislike Linux, who you calling “You People”?

          There are drivers for it, just install them, same way you do Windows. Linux will use base drivers so you can see what your doing, just like Windows. Then you must browse to the website manually and download and install the drivers OR just click the distros detect hardware, which seems to, pretty commonly, find the driver for you, give you options as to which version, download, and install it.

          Even wireless drivers seem to work good, I tried it, I had a wireless USB, it had both windows and linux drivers, I used the wrapper program to use the windows drivers, worked perfect, used the Linux drivers, worked perfect.

        • #3020987

          Who do you think wrote the windows driver ?

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to I guarantee you Ubuntu will NOT have drivers for my video card

          Redmond?

          Hello, anybody in?

          Now I’d be the first to agree that it doesn’t matter to ma and pa browser who hasn’t done what, but for those that would like to unf*ck the situation, appreciating the various motivations, is job 1.

          I don’t give a crap what drivers Ubuntu has, it’s security model is f’ed out of the box, so I won’t use it. If that’s a requirement I’ll stick with winders and get the driver….

        • #3030581

          good post tony

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Who do you think wrote the windows driver ?

          see my post above about the situation. nobody cares whose fault it is their hardware doesn’t work. people will buy what works….. PERIOD. And that is NOT linux in the home.

        • #3030401

          Why not just buy hardware that works with linux?

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to good post tony

          You currently buy hardware that works for Windows, why not get hardware that works for Linux.

          To sum that up, avoid ATI, avoid anything software controlled (winmodem….. *shivers*).

          If you get yourself proper hardware, you will be fine.

          Hell, even laptop wireless works now, they got this terribly named program that allows you to use windows drivers on Linux for those really really cheaply made laptops.

        • #3030384

          I’ve got a working installation of linux at home

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to good post tony

          A couple of distros didn’t work for me, but SimplyMepis went on like a charm. You keep saying Linux, but you mean distro. Go to distro watch, look at the popular ones and you’ll find one that will meet the hardware needs except for the oldest and newest kit.

          If you want plug in and go, windows is your best choice, it isn’t mine or a lot of others. It’s another choice, take it or leave it.

        • #3030382

          Tony, I disagree about the line ‘plug in and go’ that only

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to I’ve got a working installation of linux at home

          applies to hardware that’s designed, from scratch, to work with that specific version of Windows. Change the version of Windows and that doesn’t happen. Get an item that’s plug in and go for Win 7 and then see how well it works with XP – usually it doesn’t, and ditto with the reverse. That’s why the little boxes now have the Windows version on the side, just under the Windows Compatible sticker.

        • #3030379

          Slight revision

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Tony, I disagree about the line ‘plug in and go’ that only

          Plug in and go also included pre-installation, which is THE big difference. If that was possible Bob wouldn’t be posting.

        • #3030375

          Tony, you’re right with the revision. However, if Bob wants

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Tony, I disagree about the line ‘plug in and go’ that only

          a Linux that just turns on and go, he can get a couple from Dell as they have a few (five on my last check) that come with Ubuntu Linux pre-installed and all set to run. Sadly, they are only available off their web site, and they’re hard to find on it, and also they aren’t the top end machines they sell either.

        • #3020911

          So you’d rather buy a graphics card made by a company

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to I guarantee you Ubuntu will NOT have drivers for my video card

          that kowtows to Microsoft and builds their gear to suit only Windows and then doesn’t write a driver for it to work properly using the Industry Standard Commands, and you blame Ubuntu – right, the blame for that is with Radeon not Ubuntu as Linux is designed to work with the Industry Standards, not some proprietary stuff meant to take control of your gear off you.

        • #3030578

          again again again

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to So you’d rather buy a graphics card made by a company

          see my post above. i don’t care whose fault it is hardware doesn’t work with linux. i don’t care, and millions of other home users don’t care. we just want our computers to work.

          go ahead and use linux with your moldy old hardware, i don’t care. i’m sticking with an operating system that gives me a display with my hardware. i don’t give a crap why it does not work in linux, it just doesn’t. it works with windows, therefore i will stick with windows.

          if you guys think it’s amd or ati’s fault do something about it for crying out loud. this has been going on ever since linux hit the scene.

          my tv card never worked under linux, never. oh there’s some complicated software out there that might work with my tv card, but i have to have a master’s degree in computer science to MAYBE get it to work. And that’s after hours and days of work.

          windows media center found it, installed the drivers, and works perfectly with my tv tuner card.

          i want to USE my computer, not constantly DEBUG it

          You guys will never understand. You are all brainwashed.

          Linux = business; Windows – HOME

        • #3030437

          so you refuse to use something that doesn’t work the way

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to again again again

          you want it to because you bought a piece of equipment that has restricted usage. that’s kind of like buying some real fancy car wheel and tyres, then insisting no other car is as good as the one you had to buy to put them on, simply because they fit that car.

          You have a graphics card which was deliberately badly programmed, and are now restricted to using Windows, all i can say is:

          Welcome to the world of MS locked in computing, as in Trusted Computing, and get ready to keep forking out money into the MS bank account while they take total control of it.

          please see:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing

        • #3030363

          Hey Deadly cut the excuses step up to the plate

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to so you refuse to use something that doesn’t work the way

          and DO something about it! Quit blaming Microsoft because ATI doesn’t work on Linux. Why hasn’t any of the Linux gurus written some drivers that work? You’re not taking away MY freedom of choice when it comes to hardware with lame excuses about marketing, etc. I don’t care. I just want my hardware to WORK.

        • #3031354

          My statements are truths, not excuses, but since you seem

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Hey Deadly cut the excuses step up to the plate

          to love Windows so much, I doubt you’ll ever see that. Microsoft deliberately choose to go against industry standards, as a result anything that follows a particular version of Microsoft Windows is non compliant with the industry and other versions of Windows – that is a Microsoft created issue, and no one else’s. When a hardware company chooses to follow Microsoft and design the Microsoft commands in at the hardware level, they abet the problem.

          With regards to your graphics card, the problem is caused by Microsoft and ATI, not by Linux.

        • #3031733

          you talk about standards, then support Nvidia

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Hey Deadly cut the excuses step up to the plate

          You blame ATI for not having drivers for linux, won’t accept responsibility for this (not you personally, but those who put linux distros together) and then staunchly support Nvidia because they support linux. But wait! They have “closed standards” just like internet explorer!

          It’s true. Google CUDA or PHYSX. Both are closed source – not available on any GPU license. What is it deadly support for a closed standards product, just because they write drivers for Linux.

          You’re just another deceived Linux fanboy.

          You think the whole world would be happy with nothing but linux. That’s because you spent time working with it, and now you can act like a hotshot techie on boards and stuff.

          you don’t impress me as knowing very much. I figure you are a guy with little to moderate linux knowledge, maybe you have built a couple of PC’s, that’s about it. Nothing too special.

          You are so blinded. Anyone who thinks linux is ready now for home use is absolutely either a linux fanboy or off their nut.

        • #3032542

          He’s not against closed source

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Hey Deadly cut the excuses step up to the plate

          He’s against manufacturer lock in.

          nVidia has put the effort in to make a control centre and working drivers for Linux.

        • #3032530

          I’d like to point out

          by jck ·

          In reply to Hey Deadly cut the excuses step up to the plate

          [i]You blame ATI for not having drivers for linux, won’t accept responsibility for this (not you personally, but those who put linux distros together) and then staunchly support Nvidia because they support linux. But wait! They have “closed standards” just like internet explorer![/i]

          1) ATI does have drivers for Linux. I provided you links to the driver as well as the whitepaper that showed you that everything through the 5890 was supported under Linux. So, that is wrong.
          (P.S. to #1 – Windows 7 did not come with ATI 5xxx series drivers either…)

          2) What does an open source driver have to do getting your video to work? ATI and nVidia both have Linux drivers for their latest cards which you have to download from their site.

          [i]It’s true. Google CUDA or PHYSX. Both are closed source – not available on any GPU license. What is it deadly support for a closed standards product, just because they write drivers for Linux.[/i]

          That would be because CUDA and PhysX are proprietary technologies in regards to the computational technology onboard the video card, not the driver interface to the operating system.

          ATI does the same thing with CrossFire and FireStream.

          [i]You’re just another deceived Linux fanboy.[/i]

          You seem to be just trying to stir the pot.

          [i]You think the whole world would be happy with nothing but linux. That’s because you spent time working with it, and now you can act like a hotshot techie on boards and stuff.[/i]

          Hm. Ernest has never acted like a hot shot. He usually just states facts.

          [i]you don’t impress me as knowing very much. I figure you are a guy with little to moderate linux knowledge, maybe you have built a couple of PC’s, that’s about it. Nothing too special.[/i]

          Unnecessary.

          [i]You are so blinded. Anyone who thinks linux is ready now for home use is absolutely either a linux fanboy or off their nut.[/i]

          I guess I’m off my nut. I use Linux almost every day (whether self-loaded or VM) at home.

          Has worked perfect for me, and saved me about $500 in costs instead of buying Windows.

          Just because Ernest sees that you can do more with Linux than you realize isn’t a reason to make mean comments toward him.

        • #3031426

          yeah deadly whine whine whine

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Hey Deadly cut the excuses step up to the plate

          It’s all microsofts fault. It’sall ATI’s fault, it’s all NVIDIA’s fault, everybody is at fault because Linux can’t compete with windows for the desktop market at home.

          Please quit the whining. Either do something innovative about it, or don’t post. Excuses, excuses, it’s so wearing.

          And I’m not a WINDOWS lover, I love OPERATING SYSTEMS and spend lots of time with all of them.

          Linux’s strengths are not for the home dekstop market. It has a decent web server and some other server services, and it can run on old moldy hardware, but to even imply it’s better than windows for the home user is a statement made out of ignorance.

          Most of the people in this thread are liux fanboys and I just can’t believe they cannot see the obvious. Thank goodness for those in this thread that have aknowledged the problems of Liux in the Home Desktop market. At least there are still some honest, technically alert people left in the linux community.

        • #3031424

          Hey jck

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Hey Deadly cut the excuses step up to the plate

          Just to clear things up, Earnest or Deadly whatever his hame is insulted me first by implying I only buy computers with windows software pre- installed.

          That’s a rip at a systems programmer who has installed more operating systems, probably 10 times as many times as him. Just follow the thread and read his rip at me.

          I’m not going to go whimpering away when I get ripped for no reason and lies are told about my technical expertise.

          And jck, if you really think Linux is a better desktop system for a Home User, you are just plain out of touch with reality.

          Linux is immature, breaks easily (especially when attemping changes), and has a gui that stinks to high heaven. A gui, by the way that was copied from Microsoft.

          Don’t tell linux developed the start button with cascading windows. That has been a windows staple for years.

          Remember I AM TALKING ABOUT HOME USERS. PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WATCH TV ON THEIR COMPUTER, PEOPLE WHO WANT THE LATEST CAMERA’S AND SCANNERS, PEOPLE WHO WANT EASY APPLICATION INSTALLATIONS AND A WIDE CHOICE OF APPLICATIONS THEY CAN USE.

          AT THIS TIME LINUX FAILS IN ALL OF THESE AREAS. INSTALLATION OF PROGRAMS STINKS.

        • #3031408

          Your still arguing that the only outcome is binary.. yes.. or no

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to Hey Deadly cut the excuses step up to the plate

          I see other people acknowledging that Windows may not be the best solution for every user yet all of your comments come down to Windows being the one true way and anything else heresy.

          Your comment above starts out great explaining the issue between you and Deadly. You feel that Deadly is blindly attributing things too you which are not true such as being a new-comer to computing. You then turn around and insult JCK by blindly claiming that Windows is the only possible desktop OS for users and one is plain stupid for thinking any different.

          Lovely demonstration of the close minded opinions you claim to be railing against. It’s ok for you to demand that everyone use your prefered desktop OS yet completely unacceptible if someone suggests cases where an alternative OS works juts as well. Since this is a black or white issue for you with no possible middle ground.. I don’t see what purpose any further technology talk with you could possibly have.

        • #3031388

          Neon, I realised that some time back – after the 3rd time round

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Hey Deadly cut the excuses step up to the plate

          the circle of Bob’s reasoning and deliberate misrepresentation of some things. That’s why I said goodbye to Bob back in my post of Feb first.

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=324730&messageID=3235932

          after his

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=324730&messageID=3235913

          where he also called me a nut. He kept saying that Windows always ‘just goes on and works with no tweaking.’ And goes on about how great Win 7 is. I’ve installed Windows, except Win 3.11 sitting on DOS 6, on thousands of machines, and I’ve never had a case of Windows goes ‘going on and working.’ It’s always required tweaking and adjustment, and usually extra drivers and reboots – EXCEPT when it’s a pre-built machine from a retail outlet, which is what the majority of the Home User Market are.

          He claims Win 7 ‘just installs and works straight up and is never any trouble.’ Well, I’ve seen Win 7 installed on a dozen machines, all certified Win 7 ready or compatible, and it’s never happened that way. I’ve seen people, and help them troubleshoot, problem after problem with Win 7. Hell, we see regular threads here at TR where people are asking for help with Win 7 problems. All proving the ‘just works’ claim wrong. But none of that is acceptable. That’s why I said goodbye, and no longer reply to Bob, although I keep reading every post in this thread, just in case anything interesting comes up. But since everything Bob’s posting now is just a rehash of what he’s previously said, except for complaint and insults about me, I’ve nothing to say to him. He won’t listen or consider anything but what he’s already decide on, no place for any discussion to actually take place.

          Anyway, have fun, some of the side discussions you’ve had with Sinister are very interesting, and I enjoy them, as well as find them useful.

        • #3031032

          @ DE, you could always resort to throwing feces at each other

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Hey Deadly cut the excuses step up to the plate

          That’s always a good solid (nutty) way to solve an argument.

        • #3031023

          But, Sinister, I’m trying very hard NOT to drop to his level – nt

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Hey Deadly cut the excuses step up to the plate

          ..

        • #2816639

          Delayed reply to bobgroz

          by jck ·

          In reply to Hey Deadly cut the excuses step up to the plate

          [i]Just to clear things up, Earnest or Deadly whatever his hame is insulted me first by implying I only buy computers with windows software pre- installed.[/i]

          Hm. Well from looking back, Ernest simply derived that your opinion was probably based in the fact that you haven’t truly worked with Linux enough to really know its true ease of use vs that of Windows which you are obviously more familiar with.

          Insulting? Not nearly as much as you calling him everything short of an idiot.

          [i]That’s a rip at a systems programmer who has installed more operating systems, probably 10 times as many times as him. Just follow the thread and read his rip at me.[/i]

          Actually, I’ve been a programmer/senior programmer/software engineer/systems analyst/implementation analyst type for more than 15 years. I can tell you, I’ve probably installed more OSes/setup more drives than you, since I’ve been using PCs since about 1981.

          [i]I’m not going to go whimpering away when I get ripped for no reason and lies are told about my technical expertise.[/i]

          Well, your ripping back does little to show it. Perhaps giving specific, technical examples of why you’re right would prove your point better.

          [i]And jck, if you really think Linux is a better desktop system for a Home User, you are just plain out of touch with reality.[/i]

          As I’ve pointed out, Linux is better for some reasons while Windows is better for other reasons. Both have their strong suits and weak points.

          [i]Linux is immature, breaks easily (especially when attemping changes), and has a gui that stinks to high heaven. A gui, by the way that was copied from Microsoft.[/i]

          I’ve not had issues with changing hardware under Ubuntu or Kubuntu since 8.1x (or something to that effect).

          As for GUIs stinking, KDE’s latest in Kubuntu…yeah I would say it isn’t the greatest.

          As for it being copied from Windows? Transparent windowing that was in Vista and is in 7 were both copied from other OSes. The Trash Can (Recycle Bin) as well as the “X” for closing a window were copied into Windows…not from it. So, Microsoft has done their fair share of lifting ideas from others. They are no pure-at-heart innovator.

          [i]Don’t tell linux developed the start button with cascading windows. That has been a windows staple for years.[/i]

          Actually, Unix variants have had cascading Windows (that I know of) since the Curses interfacing libraries back in the 1980s. I worked with it in college. So, Microsoft didn’t innovate cascading, tiling or otherwise with Windows.

          [i]Remember I AM TALKING ABOUT HOME USERS. PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WATCH TV ON THEIR COMPUTER, PEOPLE WHO WANT THE LATEST CAMERA’S AND SCANNERS, PEOPLE WHO WANT EASY APPLICATION INSTALLATIONS AND A WIDE CHOICE OF APPLICATIONS THEY CAN USE.[/i]

          Most home users don’t watch TV on their computer. Movies…maybe. TV? Not so much. Only if they miss a show, and usually nowadays they use TIVO for that.

          As for installing the latest hardware, I have bought cameras, USB flash drives, SSDs, a laptop, etc etc etc., within the past 6 months…and none of them have had an issue working with Kubuntu 9.x. None. Zero.

          [i]AT THIS TIME LINUX FAILS IN ALL OF THESE AREAS. INSTALLATION OF PROGRAMS STINKS.[/i]

          I don’t know what version of Linux you have, but you should look at other distros.

          You obviously don’t have the luck with yours that I have had with mine.

        • #3030434

          It is all relative

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to again again again

          It is what works for you in a given situation.
          As I do not use my home computer for games, windows with its requirement for constant attention to anti-virus to keep it usable, is way too much work to be worth the effort to be on my home network connected to the Internet. A standard install of Debian on fairly standard hardware works with minimal effort. I am not an IT pro and neither are my children, and having Debian as a basic browser / multi-media workstation only requires average intelligence and the ability to read instructions to get working well, and once set up will stay working for years with minimal ongoing time consuming maintenance, much less than required by a windows system.

          As I have stated, it is all relative to what you use your machine for, and for a significant percentage of home users Linux would be much better than the Microsoft product. An off the shelf Linux box marketed correctly to this type of home user could be a good thing, but as as the revenue stream, and how to get you hands on it, is understood by the home computer industry. Linux boxes running faultlessly for years and years do not bring in the regular cash as the Microsoft box with its constant need for attention and poor use of a machine’s resources.

        • #3030426

          so very true, and well set out – nt

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to It is all relative

          .

        • #3020824

          5790?

          by jck ·

          In reply to I guarantee you Ubuntu will NOT have drivers for my video card

          You mean 5970?

          Ubuntu should load a default ATI driver, and you can get the ATI Catalyst software for Linux from AMD’s site.

          [b]ATI Desktop Product Family Support
          The ATI Catalyst? Linux software suite is designed to support the following ATI
          desktop products:
          AMD Desktop Product Family Support
          ATI Radeon? HD 5900 Series…”[/b]

          https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/674/9206/0/www2.ati.com/drivers/linux/catalyst_101_linux.pdf

          That’s the document to prove it.

          http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/linux/Pages/radeon_linux.aspx?type=2.4.1&product=2.4.1.3.42&lang=English

          There’s where you can download your ATI Catalyst Software for Linux.

          You should be able to take it from there.

        • #3030685

          Interesting thought

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to 5790?

          ATI Catalyst control centre is a .Net2 program, which is why I hate it, what’s it do for Linux?

        • #3030576

          Sorry it’s a 5890, my typo, no, there is not software or drivers

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to 5790?

          i hate to break your heart,, but amd or ati does not have anything to support the 5890 (single card with crossfire capability). You are wrong. Give me a screen shot proving you have this card working. I’ll bet if you even DID get it working it took your hours of farting around to do it.

          I’ll stick with windows for my home use, thank you. It is a good operating system, especially windows 7.

          you’re blind hatred for microsoft has you blinded to the truth. Modern hardware doesn’t work with Linux over 80% of the time. Also, there’s the whole games issue that I won’t even get into.

          I’d like to see a screenshot of somebody playing crysis under linux with an acceptable framerate and directx 10 support with depth of field capability.

          No, you can’t produce a screenshot of that, because it ain’t happening in linux. Not now, and by the time they DO figure it out, there will be new current tech out that won’t work. Keep linux in the workplace for the professionals. That’s where it belongs. Not in the home.

          I’m sure you all heard of the wallmart debacle with linux.

          They were selling computers with linux pre installed for the home user. It was a disaster. They have since withdrawn from linux, because nobody bought it.

          Maybe 2% of you out there enjoy debugging and troubleshooting. I don’t. I just want to use my computer. Period. And that is NOT linux.

        • #3030448

          Use nVidia then

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Sorry it’s a 5890, my typo, no, there is not software or drivers

          If ATI cards are too dumbf**ked to even use common drivers for their own cards, time to change brands.

          All nVidia drivers are the same for current generations and many past generations. The same drivers for the gtx295will operate a 7200.

        • #3030431

          Nvidia look after their customers better

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Use nVidia then

          Than ATI have been in recent times and at present provide better drivers than ATI with much less drama. I used to prefer ATI cards but with much better customer support Nvida is my preffered card now.

        • #3030365

          And get stuck with their proprietary CUDA and Physx

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Use nVidia then

          No thank you!

        • #3031353

          so instead of tthe nVidea proprietary stuff, you’re stuck with

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to And get stuck with their proprietary CUDA and Physx

          the Microsoft and ATI proprietary stuff. Your choice, and you have a right to make it, but that’s not a fault of Linux.

        • #3031168

          I’d say you made a bad choice then

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to And get stuck with their proprietary CUDA and Physx

          Many many game engines are designed to use nVidia’s API and even more now to use PhysX.

          ATI lost that race badly, they never even left the starting gate.

          ATI is so bad now, to make any changes to your video card setting, you REQUIRE .Net2 to be installed. It’s like they never thought anything through.

          I am currently using an nForce board with an AMD processor and nVidia graphics, the power and stability it produces is impressive. I can do up to a 20% overclock with no stability issues or heat issues, and the tools work both in Windows and Linux. Both versions are on the mobo CD.

          I used ATI a long time ago, the “Composite” setting and “Gaming Mode” was particularly nice, it produced great results in the CRT days, but now, it’s just pointless.
          For nVidia, to supplement those two things, I use RivaTuner, can’t even do that with an ATI card anymore. So if game decides to run in 640 x 480, it will drop the refresh rate to 60hz and thus, slide the displayed picture off to the left side of my screen. (Composite screen kept your screen centred, always, Gaming mode kept your refresh rate at max)

          I’d like to end this message with, the final choice of video card brand is up to each individual to decide based on their needs.

        • #3031052

          Actually in the future

          by jck ·

          In reply to And get stuck with their proprietary CUDA and Physx

          Look to all GPGPU / CPU makers to institute OpenCL.

          I just hope it ends up being as good as it sounds. If so, I might go from client/server into programming for those.

        • #3032355

          Not sure if OpenCL would help

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to And get stuck with their proprietary CUDA and Physx

          It solves the issue of coding on other platforms, but really, that was never much of a problem anyways. I think it’s still the DirectX stupidity. Why game engine programmers continue to use such a crappy API is beyond me.

          OpenCL “sounds” like a CUDA replacement, not a PhysX replacement. That’s how I read the wiki anyways.

        • #3032343

          from what I understand

          by jck ·

          In reply to And get stuck with their proprietary CUDA and Physx

          OpenCL is an effort to develop cross-processor, where as CUDA is designed to take advantage only of parallel computation on the nVidia GPU platform.

          That was just my take on it tho. I didn’t get to read all the white papers and such.

        • #3032286

          ?Hmmmm?

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to And get stuck with their proprietary CUDA and Physx

          What does that mean?

          I am only a simple solutions programmer 🙁

        • #3032178

          means

          by jck ·

          In reply to And get stuck with their proprietary CUDA and Physx

          nVidia is developing their own GPGPU parallel architecture for implementation.

          ATI has taken to working with the OpenCL implementation, which was handed off to and is managed now by an independent group that is working between the GPU makers and some CPU and embedded processor makers to develop a programming platform that will provide a common framework for parallelism on various processing hardware.

          At least, that’s what I understood.

          I really would like to see all the processor makers play nice and adopt some sort of standard for parallelism so that we can benefit from it. Otherwise, you get all the hub-bub involved with having to choose a video card based on what games you play, what OS you run, and how the hardware performs with them.

          It’s just a wait and see thing now.

        • #3032175

          In such case then I always go nVidia

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to And get stuck with their proprietary CUDA and Physx

          They have a good habit of retrofitting old cards with new drivers for new features and new technologies.

          Although admittedly, I am uncertain as to how ATI handles existing cards when they release new technologies.

        • #3032173

          well…

          by jck ·

          In reply to And get stuck with their proprietary CUDA and Physx

          I have bought nVidia for years and years.

          When I built my new gaming rig, I got 2x 5850s from ATI. Although the initial driver was a bit flakey, the 9.12 update fixed pretty much everything.

          As for backward maintenance, ATI Catalyst and nVidia Control Center are pretty much the same thing. I think they both pretty much quit working on old old drivers at some point, but my 7000 series nVidias still get new OS support just like my old ATIs do.

          Although, I don’t think they make Win 95 or 98 or ME drivers for any of the new cards. lol :^0

        • #3031732

          Yeah except

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Use nVidia then

          then I’d be walking into closed source code with Nvidia’s push for CUDA and PHYSX. I thought you guys were against closed source?

          Hmmmmm. There’s some serious psychosis going on around here. At least very much confusion. I think anyone reading this thread would say….”Typical Linux BS.”

        • #3032534

          I am not against closed source

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Yeah except

          I make several free closed source programs. I can’t be against them.

          Open source != Free

        • #3032527

          Again

          by jck ·

          In reply to Yeah except

          CUDA is nVidia’s computational parallel model.

          PhysX is a middleware SDK for physics rendering onboard rather than in the game software.

          PhysX is available for Linux. However since it is a proprietary software pertaining to the processing for the video subsystem, it is hence *not* part of the interface to the OS and not a “driver”.

          CUDA is the parallel computation in the GPU. Therefore, it is not a driver either.

          Needless to say, neither are PhysX is a SDK and you should be able to program against it openly.

          CUDA is their hardware architecture and probably has open interfaces for Linux drivers to program calls to it.

          The Linux driver source are probably somewhere out there.

          Have you gone and looked for them?

        • #3032671

          He uses ATI based on FUD?

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Yeah except

          That’s the first time I’ve ever heard of this.

          PhysX closed source???? Its a freaken SDK. You want to suggest changes? Email nVidia.

          I take it you have never seen this then.

          http://www.nvidia.com/object/unix.html

          And even better,
          http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_opencl.html

          Understand Cuda’s purpose now? nVidia wants Linux to succeed, they realize it would be a better gaming platform.

          And can you believe it?
          http://developer.nvidia.com/object/physx.html
          PhysX is free to both commercial and non commercial developers!

          Can it get any better?
          Actually it can, there are already some development platforms designed to encapsulate all the “hard” parts with graphics programming.

      • #3032292

        Rubbish?

        by bobgroz ·

        In reply to Linux is an experimenter’s OS

        Are you telling me that Linux runs the latest applications – the latest games in all their directx10 glory and the latest hardware properly? That’s not rubbish, it’s the TRUTH.

        Geez what does it take to make fanboys see the obvious.

        Forget about money, politics, standards, vendors not writing drivers for linux, the lack of competitive applications,

        Those arguments STINK. If Linux ever wants a real piece of the desktop the distro producers and programers will have to meet those challenges with technical ability.

        The days of complicated installs (an install can be an rpm, a direct compile, or a debian type install), talk about no standards, Linux can’t even get standards between it’s distributions! Red Hat uses RPM. Debian apt get. Some software gets compiled with .configure, make make intstall (and then there are all the dependency problems)

        Add to that the new hardware doesn’t work.

        It’s not “follow the money” it’s “follow the lack of standards and follow the problems” I’d be willing to bet half of the software that comes with any linux distro that you can install – will require quite a level of expertise in linux to get a completed install.

        In windows you don’t have to worry about any of that. Just double click the .exe file and your software is installed.

        Also, I have never bought a piece of hardware that did not run on windows and I have been buying hardware and putting together machines for 20 years…..

        Your “follow the money”is hogwash.Linux isn’t in the home because it’s terribly broken in many places….and requires someone with pretty extensive knowledge of the OS to get things working properly. And that knowledge takes some time to achieve, plus you must have basic talent with computers. That is not the average home user.

        Money has nothing to do with it. If Linux would fix all the bullcrap standards within itself, install programs easily, and run current hardware (those are all issues that COULD be achieved with some smart people), then, perhaps it would be better for the home user.

        • #3032288

          Why must distros standardize with eachother?

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Rubbish?

          Perhaps the great Linux pitfall is because the word “Linux” got used. Because now it is used to describe every OS that is based off the same kernel. A grave mistake.

    • #3020985

      bwahahaha

      by jck ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      Two words and one decimal number, bobgroz:

      Kubuntu Linux 9.4

      BTW, Windows 7 Pro x64 didn’t work too well with the ATI Catalyst 9.12 on the 5890 either.

      They had to issue a patch. What went wrong?
      Seems the venerable Windows is not so great after all.

      BTW, Kubuntu 9.4 works perfectly fine with 2 5850s in Crossfire. I know. I have a machine running that config 🙂

      • #3030575

        yes, but how much do you know about linux

        by bobgroz ·

        In reply to bwahahaha

        Mr.and Mrs america don’t have your expertise at setting something like that up. I’d ask you to be honest and tell me how many hours you spent to get it to work. By the way, do you get all the direct 11 features in your games? How about depth of field? I highly doubt it. Probably you might get a desktop, but you are sacrificing all the eye candy that really makes the game look hot under windows. Spend the extra money on an oem copy of windows 7, you’ll be much happier with your cards 🙂

        • #3031097

          Well, to address your questions

          by jck ·

          In reply to yes, but how much do you know about linux

          a) worked on and off with Linux since the early 90s in college. I’m no guru, but it’s not hard to learn (especially compared to 1990s Linux) to use *Ubuntu distros.

          b) Setting up was nothing. I loaded Kubuntu, it loaded default drivers for the ATI chipset detected, I booted in, loaded the Linux package from the ATI site.

          c) I don’t know if DX11 games work in Linux, cause I didn’t try to go get any that featured it. But, I would assume their Catalyst center exercises those features their cards/drivers are said to employ on the Linux platform. And as far as I am aware, DX11 is a Microsoft-dependent featureset.

          I think perhaps through Wine or some other interface it might support DXn instructions, but I believe natively in Linux it will support OpenGL2.x and 3.x.

        • #3032181

          Do you think a home user wants to set up wine?

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Well, to address your questions

          I think not. They just want to insert the DVD, install the game and play. Period.

        • #3032176

          Hm

          by jck ·

          In reply to Do you think a home user wants to set up wine?

          When you installed Crysis the first time, did you have to set up DX10?

          I’ve seen tons of games and video management tools that would run you through the DX install.

          Linux could be made to recognize PC-based software and auto pre-load Wine.

          Besides, I remember reading somewhere that some distro of Linux now came standard with a PC environment emulation built in.

          So, it’s not a requirement anymore. It’s now becoming a standard feature.

          Like I’ve said before, bobgroz. Linux is not as backward as you might think, even though MS did have a 12 year headstart on Linus Torvalds.

          Give Linux another 12 years, and I bet MS won’t have 90+% of the market anymore…kinda like they don’t have the majority of the webserver market anymore. 🙂

          Oops! Linux and Apache ftw! :^0

        • #3032163

          Already is I think

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Hm

          In both Mandriva and Mint, I dbl clicked an EXE and it ran, no config required

        • #3032160

          Sweet

          by jck ·

          In reply to Already is I think

          I might have to look at changing then, if Kubuntu 10.04 doesn’t have it automatically.

          I’d love nothing more than to run Shadowbane on Linux with their OpenGL mode whenever the Emulator gets online. 🙂

          I use Mint on one of my old boxes. It was a good distro.

        • #3032003

          jck, some versions do NOT automatically install WINE, but

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Already is I think

          many now work as follows:

          1. You select WINE in the package manager to be downloaded and installed.

          2. After installation, you select an .exe file and click on it and it automatically runs in WINE.

          3. If you wish to fine tune the operation for WINE for the application involved, you open the WINE config file in the menu list and personalise the Windows settings by adding the application and then selecting the version of Windows you want it to run as, then set up things like display size etc.

          If you don’t personalise it, WINE will take a few cycles to evaluate the best version of Windows to run the application in and just run it.

          NB: not ALL distributions work this way, but many now do.

        • #3031911

          Ernest: Wish I got to read/experiment more

          by jck ·

          In reply to Already is I think

          Between 8-10 hours work, 1.5-2.0 hours driving, plus having to maintain the house myself…I have no social life and little fun anymore.

          That’s why a career as a groundskeeper picking up trash with a stick that has a nail in the end of it…is sounding really good right now. 😀

      • #3030364

        Can you play crysis in all it’s direct 10 glory?

        by bobgroz ·

        In reply to bwahahaha

        I don’t think so. Check out depth of field on a Windows 7 machine playing crysis. It will blow you away. Linux will look like an old 800×600 display of the game (IF it even runs) next to windows 7…..

        • #3031266

          Well no, it was written for DirectX, duh

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to Can you play crysis in all it’s direct 10 glory?

          If it were written for OpenGL, which Windows used to use, mind you, before MS could come up with something closed and proprietary, it would run just fine.

        • #3032357

          the directx API is here to stay

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Well no, it was written for DirectX, duh

          like it or not directx is here to stay. it’s up to the linux guru’s to do something about it. get directx functionality in linux. code as a module or into the kernel. It’s a damned fine api, it’s matured and games look fantastic with it.

          Have you played the latest batman game? It’s a pure joy to play. I smile every time I play it. That game would never run on linux, and it’s one of my favorites.

          I guess you want me to give up all that directx goodness so I can play tux or something like that.

          Cedega should be included free as part of any linux distro.

          At least you could play SOME games. Forget setting up wine for games, cedega should do that. Linux needs more forward thinking like cedega. They take the existing “under the hood” setup and make it very easy for the end user. What home user, non IT person is going to set up wine?

          Nobody….

        • #3032673

          DirectX Goodness?

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to the directx API is here to stay

          Oh, you’ve done game programming have you?

          Then you must know, DX9 has been holding us back for a long time. DX10 is a good improvement, but it only brought the performance to that of what OpenGL had accomplished in what, 2005?

          Between OpenGL and OpenCL it would be almost a simple “Find and Replace” to convert a DX engine to an OpenGL engine and make it closer to cross platform.

          To this day, OpenGL can calculate ~40% more points in 3D space every second over DX10.
          What this means is a game on OpenGL could have denser forests, or more objects on screen at a time.

          About the only DX technology that was any good was DirectDraw. As far as I know, for simplicity and speed, it is still the fastest 2D rendering technology.

        • #3031643

          I’ll tell you about how I installed DirectX on Debian..

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to Can you play crysis in all it’s direct 10 glory?

          .. right after you tell me about how you installed Aqua on Windows.

        • #3031617

          How to install Aqua on Windows

          by jck ·

          In reply to I’ll tell you about how I installed DirectX on Debian..

          Um…
          VMWare Player
          Linux Image File
          Yay! :^0

        • #3031581

          still missing osX Aqua though you can tune a theme to look similar

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to How to install Aqua on Windows

          nt

      • #3032361

        Yeah, but

        by bobgroz ·

        In reply to bwahahaha

        Tell us the exact steps you had to go through to get it working….I’d bet it was more cumbersome than having the same setup in windows….

        • #3031662

          It was the same exact steps

          by jck ·

          In reply to Yeah, but

          Load the OS
          Reboot
          Install drivers from CD (Windows only)
          Go online
          Get latest ATI driver/Catalyst software
          Install the package
          Reboot
          Crossfire goodness

          Seriously, bobgroz. Linux is far better than you give it credit for.

          And as SinisterSlay said above, OpenGL 3 rendering is far more efficient than DirectX 9, 10, or 11. The only reason DirectX is more prevalent is because Microsoft hammered their way into being a practical monopoly.

          As soon as game makers see a large enough market in Linux, games will start to migrate that way.

          OpenGL is easier to develop for anyway.

          OpenGL is a cross-platform standard. Same for all OSes in which it’s implemented.

          DirectX is only Windows-native, and requires middleware (basically) to interpret the DirectX to the other OS’s graphics standard…which slows down things some. Middleware always does.

        • #3031522

          Win95 helped a lot

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to It was the same exact steps

          Hellbender anyone?
          Windows 95 and direct X was awesome.
          3dFX was the only contender, and it was limited to voodoo cards.

          Glide was too late out of the starting gate.
          Now, OpenGL has the fastest car on the track, but no one to drive it, a team of mechanics without drivers.

          I believe if Nix devs got together and started modifying or making new game engines in OpenGL and sold them (cheap) to game developers, we could see a very quick uptake in OpenGL, and then, Linux.

          On a side note, I can use Mint to play Red Alert, a Win 95 only game. But its glitchy as hell. I crashed Mint horribly 4 times in 1 hour. Sometimes it just seems to forget to limit the framerate…

          Gonna try Populous next, but trick is, my Mint install is on flash drive, so not much space. If I can get this perfected, Mint or another nix will definitely be on a boot for my machine so I can play some of those great old games.

        • #3031557

          Nvidia install

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to Yeah, but

          In windows, I had to go to the nvidia website for the latest driver pack, download it and run setup.exe. I then had to press OK and Next a few times while confirming various applicable settings.

          In Debian, I had to go to the nvidia website for the latest driver pack, download it and run setup.sh. I then had to press Y and Enter a couple of times while confirming various applicable settings.

          In both cases, I then restarted the system having both OS come up perfectly and pretty. Technically, I rebooted the entire Windows machine and restarted only X without rebooting the entire Debian machine but the effect is the same.

          With Mandriva the initial install wizard goes “oh, you have an Nvidia, should I use the open drivers or nvidia’s provided closed drivers?”. Selecting either worked but Nvidia’s closed driver worked a bit better at that time. Either way, it was a simply option during initial install. After install, it was a simple option in the control-panel.

          With Debian, I also had the option of installing an open Nvidia driver from the libre only repositories or the Nvidia’s binary driver packaged specifically for debian from the closed source repository. This was done simply through the package manager and would be equivalent to getting an Nvidia driver from Windows Update.

          I’m not seeing a drastic difference between installations on any of these platforms.

          So, what distribution is giving you such grief with which Nvidia card and have you bothered to try the Nvidia provided driver package?

        • #3031514

          I consider that too much effort now

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Nvidia install

          Now that I have installed drivers in Mint.

          open start menu, type video driver, it took me to driver detection, which popped up 3 possible choices for a video card driver and a “Recommended” one. I chose the newest version, it said installing. Done, restart computer.

          I didn’t even need a web browser or need to know what my video card was or anything.

        • #3031436

          nice, glad to hear Mint is working out for you

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to I consider that too much effort now

          Hopefully the Mint developers keep up the good work. They have so far so no reason to expect otherwise.

        • #3031379

          With it that easy

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to nice, glad to hear Mint is working out for you

          That’s a proper procedure I could give over the phone. Systems like WebEx would go out of business if everything was that easy.

        • #3030963

          and for those things you can’t fix by phone

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to With it that easy

          You can always reach in by ssh and fix by hand for a client. I’ve done complete server and desktop installs needing only to talk a local tech through the most minimal install.

    • #3020909

      Microsoft Windows 7 is the Microsoft attempt at copying

      by deadly ernest ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      the Unix / Linux model of a decade ago, except they added a some weird graphics to the graphics user interface. There are about 100 time more computers out there running Linux / Unix than there are ones running Windows – what you don’t see is that Linux / Unix have the majority of the server market and the embedded system market is there’s down pat. The desktop market is mostly Microsoft Windows simply because of the predatory marketing processes of Microsoft with the main retail makers of PCs, and the average user just wants to buy something in a retails store.

      SimplyMepis Linux is much better than Win 7 for ease of use and security, as is the case with most Linux distributions. Some have lowered the security down to the Microsoft level in an attempt to get the market that isn’t concerned about security.

      As to drivers, blame that on the hardware makers who do NOT design gear to work with Industry Standard Commands, but design it to work with a specific version of Microsoft Windows Commands. Linux is designed to the Industry Standards and all hardware (no matter how old) that is designed to Industry Standards just plugs in and works.

      • #3030677

        Minor point

        by ic-it ·

        In reply to Microsoft Windows 7 is the Microsoft attempt at copying

        Your statement may have left out the word server. 😉

        There are about 100 time more computers out there running Linux / Unix than there are ones running Windows

        Perhaps servers but definately not computers.

        • #3030674

          Any device using a CPU and running an OS is a computer,

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Minor point

          even cars made and sold in the last decade or so have a built in computer, with them running a variant of Unix or Linux; all the household goods with programmable content have a built in computer running a variant of Unix or Linux – in most cases; cell phones, fancy watches, e-readers, GPS devices, etc – most of these have Unix or Linux as their base operating system.

          The ONLY place where Microsoft is currently outdoing Unix and Linux is retail desktop PCs, and that’s solely due to their predatory marketing practices and deals with the major manufacturers of retail PCs.

          In the past even Microsoft used Unix and Linux servers to run their own web sites, at times, simply because the Windows Server software wasn’t up to the job.

        • #3030554

          still, linux is not for the HOME

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Any device using a CPU and running an OS is a computer,

          I don’t argue with you on the benefits of using linux as a server. I argue with you on trying to make it a desktop for the home user. It’s too complex for mr. and mrs. america, and honestly windows is a damned good operating system for home use. I love windows 7. I also love playing with hercules running an operating system that linux could not even tie it’s shoes – OS/390 – now known as Z/OS. Now THERE is a server. An IBM mainframe running Z/OS. Western civilization would collapse if Z/OS went away. All the linux in the world ain’t running the military the big fortune 500 companies, the electric company that puts your lights and gives you the chance to even run a home computer.

          Linux is a good server for small to medium business needs, but Z/OS with it’s MVS core does the heavy lifting and keeps america running.

          Unless you are trained you can’t even be in room running the stuff I’m talking about.

          No, Linux is not the end all in computing. It has a niche, but that’s it. And that niche is not mr. and mrs. america’s home. Don’t force it to be what it’s not. And quit blaming marketing, etc. for the problems.

          This reminds me of the Vikings demolishing Dallas a couple of weeks ago. The Dallas players were upset because Minnesota went for an extra score to really crush them. They felt it was “unsportsman like”. I liked what the announcer said. If you don’t like it, do something about it.

          That’s what I have to say to everyone who thinks linux should be in the home. Quit making excuses for Microsoft’s marketing, etc. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. INNOVATE. MAKE IT BETTER. QUIT MAKING EXCUSES.

        • #3030433

          Linux is for the home, a lot depends on the version you get

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to still, linux is not for the HOME

          over the last few years I’ve installed a number of versions of Linux on systems for home users simply because they can’t do a damn thing on their new computers because they came with (in their own words) ‘That garbage Vista’ or ‘This rubbish Win 7’ – they all say ‘Nothing works the way it used to and I can’t find or do anything.’

          Depending upon their own personal preferences, I’ve installed either SimplyMepis Linux, PCLinuxOS, Kubuntu, Ubuntu, or Fedora when they didn’t have the Win XP disc from their old computer available to install Win XP on the new computer, or when they couldn’t find drivers for some of the hardware on the new computer.

          Most of these are older people who want it to ‘just work’ and it does, NOW.

        • #3030366

          wait until they want to install something or change something

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Linux is for the home, a lot depends on the version you get

          I’ll bet they call you – for anything they need to change.

          You know your linux, but that still doesn’t make it the right choice for the home desktop. Windows 7 is a very GOOD operating system. Vista stinks, I’ll admit that, but Microsoft atoned for it’s sins with 7. I use it along with Mac OSx for all my home needs. Never have any problems…. Just pure computer bliss….

        • #3031351

          I get more calls about problems with changes in Windows

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to wait until they want to install something or change something

          than I do in Linux – but you’ll get that with any system as there are people out there who have trouble changing the channel on a DVD recorder.

        • #3032690

          why would you do that to anybody

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Linux is for the home, a lot depends on the version you get

          that is cruel you put linux on a home user computers.

          Windows 7 has rave reviews. It is an excellent operating system. Small footprint. Very easy to use. I love jumplists and libraries. Media center is great. The supplied ISO writer makes burning ISO images a snap.

          The mouse gestures for the OS are very nice as well.

          Honestly, deadly, you’re the only person I’ve ever heard that says windows 7 is garbage. You are blinded either by hate for microsoft, or you get off showing your mediocre technical skills to newbies.

          Sure if you installed linux for some old farts that only want to browse the internet and check email, Linux will work. I just hope they don’t buy the newest digital camera, or printer, or see something in the software manager they like, only to have a crashed install. Honestly I’d bet HALF of the stuff you see in the linux install manager won’t install properly. There will absolutely be dependency problems.

          Please do the right thing and give them windows 7. I’m sure you had a big part in influencing their opinions.

          Why is windows 7 getting rave reviews?

        • #3032657

          I would too

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to why would you do that to anybody

          I’ve been called out of my computer repair retirement to clean some super virus. Apperently its in a shop, mission critical files and computer, and apperently the designer, is also an avid web browser.

          If he doesn’t require any windows based programs, he’s gonna be getting Ubuntu. But just in case, I am trying to put back together my old toolset.

          Got alternate browser, got Avira and updates, got starter and whats running, oops forgot anti malware, need malware bytes and spybot…
          I got nix CD’s, Knoppix, ubuntu, Mint and Hirens.

          Could be trouble if hes using Vista or Win7 as I don’t have install media for either OS.

        • #3031618

          more responses to bobgroz

          by jck ·

          In reply to why would you do that to anybody

          [i]that is cruel you put linux on a home user computers.[/i]

          His users have a choice.

          Go to Best Buy and see if GeekSquad will put Linux on for free on that new HP or Gateway.

          [i]Windows 7 has rave reviews. [/i]

          It also has not-so-rave reviews.

          [i]It is an excellent operating system. [/i]

          Excellent? No. Good. Yes. Better than Vista? DOS 3.3 was better than Vista.

          [i]Small footprint. [/i]

          Absolutely wrong there. Win 7 has an even larger footprint than Vista.

          [i]Very easy to use. I love jumplists and libraries. [/i]

          I’ve found using Win 7 not as easy as using Vista.

          [i]Media center is great. [/i]

          Windows messed up Media Player after Version 9.

          [i]The supplied ISO writer makes burning ISO images a snap.[/i]

          I’ve been burning ISOs easily with several free apps for 6 years now.

          [i]The mouse gestures for the OS are very nice as well.[/i]

          I noticed that if my finger rolls too much while it hits the mousepad, I get that weird icon. Maybe that’s a gesture. It’s annoying.

          [i]Honestly, deadly, you’re the only person I’ve ever heard that says windows 7 is garbage. You are blinded either by hate for microsoft, or you get off showing your mediocre technical skills to newbies.[/i]

          Ernest obviously like Linux better.
          Ernest obviously is highly intelligent and knowledgable (and patient for putting up with your taunts)

          [i]Sure if you installed linux for some old farts that only want to browse the internet and check email, Linux will work. I just hope they don’t buy the newest digital camera, or printer, or see something in the software manager they like, only to have a crashed install. Honestly I’d bet HALF of the stuff you see in the linux install manager won’t install properly. There will absolutely be dependency problems.[/i]

          Oh jeez.

          My Canon digital camera plug and played with Linux just like it did Windows.

          Linux actually loaded the Wireless-N driver for my network card, where as Windows XP and 7 both required a disc.

          So, Windows 7 being latest and greatest still didn’t have drivers for new hardware that Kubuntu’s latest release did.

          [i]Please do the right thing and give them windows 7. I’m sure you had a big part in influencing their opinions.[/i]

          I would think you give a customer what they want, not what you prefer or hype.

          [i]Why is windows 7 getting rave reviews?[/i]

          IMHO? They seem “rave” cause Vista was so bad. I’ve seen bad comments about 7 too. Just not as many as Vista had.

        • #3031554

          Why is windows 7 getting rave reviews

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to why would you do that to anybody

          .. because it’s much better than Windows Vista was and has a whole heck of a lot of marketing behind it along with the obvious advantages of pre-installed systems.

          “Sure if you installed linux for some old farts that only want to browse the internet and check email, Linux will work. I just hope they don’t buy the newest digital camera, or printer, or see something in the software manager they like, only to have a crashed install. Honestly I’d bet HALF of the stuff you see in the linux install manager won’t install properly. There will absolutely be dependency problems.”

          Any new digital cameras should work just fine as they tend to be based on standards. Major distributions like Ubuntu already have the software to pull the images off with little user interaction just like osX and (i’m guessing) Windows does. Software out of the package manager should also install pretty cleanly since it doesn’t get into the repository without rigorous testing and review; this does depend on the distribution to some degree but Debian has been rock solid and Mandriva only pulled down a bad package once in the near decade I used it. A crashed install of a single package from the package manager should also be a non-issue. A broken program won’t effect currently active programs until they are restarted (assumign it’s an update to an active program). Even a kernel update won’t bake the system until you reboot and in that case, the boot menu will have the old unbroken kernel to fall back on if needed. I’ve yet to see such a thing happen when sticking to the distribution provided repositories though. A good package manager deals with dependency problems also. If you install something from teh repository then it’s dependencies will be in the repo also and the package manager will install them all as needed.

          If Win7 and Ubuntu will can both cover the user’s needed, wouldn’t it be irresponsible to have them purchase a full win7 license rather than consider a few Linux distributions easily tested with the client by liveCD? Simply reaching for win7 as a knee jerk reaction would be similar to selling one’s client win7 Ultimate when they only needed win7 Home edition.

          I would consider it unprofessional to ignore either option during the OS selection phase.

        • #3030562

          and there are thousands of more severs running Z/OS than linux

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Minor point

          See my post above about Z/OS (with it’s MVS core). There are THOUSANDS of more companies, the military, etc. running MVS core operating systems as servers than linux.

          Can you set up Z/os on your x86 computer using the GPU software called Hercules? Google it. Read about it. You wont understand a thing. Maybe you need to see what serious tech is….

          BTW, I run OS/390 here, in my house on an x86 machine.

          A feat that perhaps 1% of operating system engineers can perform. The point I am making is I KNOW TECH. Linux does NOT belong in the home…. PERIOD. Not now, not never. Quit trying to make it something it’s not. I’m not just talking to you (the poster that I’m replying to) – you are probably a decent guy and know your linux. Hats off to you. But remember, there is always somebody that knows more.

          I’m tired of the arrogance of people that know a bit about linux. I look on boards and see poor newbies trying to set up things like what starts when linux boots – getting blasted by some arrogant know it all (at least that what he thinks he is) making the poor newbie feel stupid. Come over to my house and lets play with Hercules – not you personally, but anyone who thinks they are a tech hotshot.

          You will learn the most important thing about tech – HUMILITY. None of us knows even 5% of all the tech out there. So let’s stop acting like arrogant know it all’s. Help out the newbie, if he has an interest in learning linux. Don’t make him feel stupid just to make yourself feel good.

          Again, sir, this is not directed at you personally. It’s a global problem that I’m sick and tired of.

          Rant over.

        • #3030419

          And what is Z/OD

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to and there are thousands of more severs running Z/OS than linux

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z/OS

          It is a UNIX compliant OS, like Linux, BSD etc

        • #3030410

          methinks someone just got hoisted on their own petard – nt

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to And what is Z/OD

          .

        • #3030404

          Thought that sounded familiar

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to And what is Z/OD

          I don’t see an advantage to that type of server vs the many other OS’s you can put on a server.

        • #3031370

          Z/os runs a fully posix compliant thread, but MVS does the work

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to And what is Z/OD

          Wikipedia is wrong, if it says Z/OS is simply a unix OS. The Unix piece is just a thread to run that kind of work. The heavy lifting, the stuff that keeps western civilization going is done by the core MVS base. I know. I worked with it for 20 years. We used very little of the unix stuff for our work; MVS was the workhorse. Check out OS/390 or MVS for a better description in Wikipedia than Z/OS. Z/OS is just a 64 bit version of OS/390. Believe me when I say this, unix or linux or any operating system doesn’t have near the power as MVS. That is a FACT that cannot be disputed. Call your electric company and ask them where most of their computer cycles go. If you can get through you will find MVS is doing most of the work, not unix.

          They only use the unix piece for running webservers, etc. because MVS was not designed for that. The REAL computing, the printing of the paychecks, the billing, the heavy calculations, the printing, all the running programs that keep an electric company going run on MVS.

          More people sit at a CICS terminal inputing data than any job in the computer field. MVS rules. In fact, all of Unix’s functionality was copied from MVS. MVS existed long before Unix. Virtual storage, swap or page files, multitasking – all of that was invented on MVS by IBM.

          OS/2 was a great desktop operating system. I was sorry to see it go. It’s still in use today, however. You need OS/2 to IPL an MVS system. OS/2 was built on the principles of MVS, but on a much smaller platform. OS/2 – had it survived would have seriously kicked linux ass in the server market. IBM just never got behind it like they should have. Their bad. I still have my OS/2 WARP cd’s and run it in a virtual machine and it’s still awesome.

          Open your mind. Linux / Unix is NOT the bottom line.

          If MVS were to go away today, we would not be eating within a week. That is, unless we grew our own food…..

        • #3031145

          And who wrote OS/2?

          by dhcdbd ·

          In reply to Z/os runs a fully posix compliant thread, but MVS does the work

          Microsoft until version 2.1.

        • #3031148

          z/OS

          by dhcdbd ·

          In reply to and there are thousands of more severs running Z/OS than linux

          Fast facts about z/OS UNIX

          * It is a certified UNIX system and an integral element of z/OS.
          * WebSphere? Application Server, CICS?, IMS TM , Java TM Runtime, Tuxedo, DB2?, WebSphere MQ, SAP R/3, Lotus Domino, and Oracle Web Server all use z/OS UNIX.
          * z/OS UNIX applications can communicate with DB2?, CICS, IMS, and WebSphere MQ.
          * z/OS UNIX is built for the enterprise where you can prioritize workloads for high performance when running with a mixed workload.
          * There is a broad range of ISV applications ported to z/OS UNIX.
          * z/OS UNIX has a hierarchical file system familiar to UNIX users.
          * Applications can work with data in both the z/OS UNIX file systems and traditional MVS TM data sets. MVS programs can access UNIX files, and UNIX programs can access MVS data sets.
          * The SMB File and Print Server enables a distributed file sharing infrastructure for z/OS UNIX files and Windows? workstations.
          * Users can choose which interface they want to use: the standard shell, 3270, or the ISPF interfaces.
          http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/zos/unix/

          Linux is a variant of Unix, can you say.

      • #3030566

        Sorry deadly, your argument doesn’t hold water

        by bobgroz ·

        In reply to Microsoft Windows 7 is the Microsoft attempt at copying

        it’s not marketing that keeps windows on the home user desktop, its the fact that windows works out of the box with all the hardware (especially the current hardware) and linux does NOT – especially if you are a home user that doesn’t know what fstab or initab or runlevels, etc. etc. are.

        Wake up. Linux is just too complex for people who just want to use their computers and not debug them.

        You guys get off on debugging. I did too, before a doctor made a serious error and permanently damaged my brain by giving me the wrong medications together. I’ve been fighting with suicide for years.

        I used to work on an operating system that makes linux look like a toy. MVS, which when I was destroyed was called OS/390 and now called Z/OS. The most advanced business OS in the world. You guys who think you are so hot on tech couldn’t even begin to understand that OS.

        Tell me what is DASD? What is a partitioned dataset? What is RACF? What is JES2? What is HCD? How about Open Edition? What about full posix compliant unix that runs as a task under Z/os? Can you set that up? Can you do an IOGEN? What about IPCS and dump reading? Can you guys read a dump? Do you know what a PSW is? What is SMP?
        Tell me, what is CICS? What is VSAM? Can you tell me? How about a sysplex – what is that? Can you tell me what TSO is? How about ROSCOE?

        Well, I could go on and on, but Z/OS (with it’s MVS core) runs western civilization, guys. Every large bank, financial institution, disney world, the military uses Z/OS for their business, Linux is a joke even for large business. I worked on an operating system that had at any time 40,000 to 70,000 users on at a time. We had well over 800 printers printing concurrently. I’d love to see linux do that.

        Can you guys run Z/os on the free open source software called Hercules? I can. I know all about tech. I was working in it before you were even a thought in your father’s mind.

        I miss it so bad. I’ve been disabled for 8 years, but I know what operating system belongs where. You are totally deceived if you think Linux belongs in the home – for home users. Wake up and smell the coffee. Linux is for small to medium range businesses -period. You know, things like fast food chains, maybe some healthcare use, maybe a Midas Muffler store – things like that.

        Linux could never have supported the large fortune 500 company I worked at. Never.

        Learn where Linux belongs. Not in the home. Not in fortune 500 companies (for their REAL computing needs), in small to medium businesses – with linux system programers on staff….

        • #3030427

          Windows does NOT work out of the box with any system in

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Sorry deadly, your argument doesn’t hold water

          the world. It may appear that way in some marketing situations because the companies who bulk build retail computers, like Dell and HP, go to a lot of effort to design their systems to work with Windows and then make a specialised version of Windows to run on that specific model of their machine. They put a lot of work into making it work.

          Windows has the retail market due to the fact Dell and HP get huge discounts from Microsoft for Windows by putting them on everything, and they only pass a portion of that discount on to the retail buyer – thus upping their profits along the way. They can’t do that with Linux, so they don’t like it and don’t make buying their systems with Linux easy – hell some don’t make Linux versions available at all.

          Want to see how Linux and Windows REALLY compare – go buy two systems form a local Mom and Pop computer store , store systems where they put them together from generic industry components – and don’t specify ones that a deliberately made for Windows only, like some Radeon cards. Then set them up and start to install SimplyMepis Linux 8.0 on one and Windows 7 on the other. See how soon you have them both fully set up with the right drivers and ready for general use. I can tell you now, it won’t be Windows, as you’ll have to download some drivers and reboot the system a number of times before you’re finished. I know this, as I had to do it for a client with regards to SimplyMepis 6 and Win XP a few years back.

        • #3030422

          In my experience

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Windows does NOT work out of the box with any system in

          When you take a bunch of components that you have, and build them into a box, Installing Linux,and getting a system up and running, connected to the net and with a decent screen resolution, is always faster than a Windows setup to the same stage.

        • #3030405

          Agreed, but to be more specific

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to In my experience

          If you took, for arguement, Windows 98, and installed it on a machine made with hardware from 1997, Linux distros, from then to now still could not manage that.

          Win7 got an edge on linux again, but the edge is already lost as Win7 drivers are old now while linux drivers are always updated. New hardware has a better chance of working with linux than it does with windows.

        • #3031369

          Yeah but try to

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to In my experience

          1) Use any hardware you want

          2) Install a program successfully without the help of google to fix all the dependencies The GUI install managers in Linux STINK. I’ve tried em all, and your lucky if even half the stuff goes on without needing lots of work and manipulation to get your software working

          3) Run the LATEST games in all their directx 10/11 glory.

          4) Watch and record TV without painful setups.

          5) Even begin to match the sheer amount of software available for windows.

          6) Turn it on and it just works. This is what people want. They don’t want to have to learn the internals of and operating system, they just want their computer to WORK and use it without needing to debug every damned thing.

          Sorry, anyone who thinks Linux belongs in the home is close minded and blinded probably by sheer hate for Microsoft. Those are NOT reasons to make a choice on what you should use at home.

          I’d be willing to bet most of the linux users who say they use it for home, have a microsoft virtual machine somewhere on their hard drive.

        • #3031347

          And try doing the same thing in Windows for the same issues

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Yeah but try to

          1. Windows doesn’t run all hardware either – so null claim; hell not all versions of Windows will run all Windows compliant hardware either.

          2. You get the exact same compliances issues with Windows, they just aren’t as open at acknowledging they exist, and they aren’t as ready to share them around.

          3. Well duh, you want to use a game using a proprietary Microsoft software, try running a game in Windows built around Open GL and watch what happens. However, WINE, Cedega, and CrossOver do manage to handle a this issue of duplicating DirectX well.

          4. There are Linux applications for you to watch and record TV quite easily. I prefer to watch TV on the television as I can’t afford a 36 inch computer monitor.

          5. There are huge amounts of software available for Linux and Unix, even some that have no Windows equivalents. But the majority of Windows software available is specialised business stuff, which kind of defeats your case for the home market; or are games that are designed for Windows and can run in Cedega or WINE or CrossOver.

          6. Turn it on and it just works only applies to pre-built systems, of which you can buy in Linux as well. If you want to load your own Windows on a blank system, you have to learn some of the Internals, more so than what you need for a modern Linux distro.

          About the comment of a Windows virtual machine, yes, you can have that if you want as most Linux distributions include WINE for those who want it to play their Windows specific games.

        • #3032585

          the bad old days

          by lucien86 ·

          In reply to And try doing the same thing in Windows for the same issues

          To be able to install Windows you have to be able to put the disk in the drive, its usually little more complicated than that.

          [rest of post moved below]

        • #3031333

          That’s rich

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Yeah but try to

          [i]Sorry, anyone who thinks Linux belongs in the home is close minded and blinded probably by sheer hate for Microsoft. Those are NOT reasons to make a choice on what you should use at home.[/i]

          And yet you are open-minded and not blinded by hate for Linux? If so, I can’t get a single one of your posts to read that way. It my not be your intent, but all I see in any of your posts is fanboy “Windows is better because it runs games” crap.

          I run Ubuntu 9.04 and SimplyMepis 8.0.06 on my PCs at home. They installed with no problem and they just work. And no Windows VM on those PCs.

          I do have a Windows PC for my son, and he uses it to play on-line games. What you need to explain to me, since Windows is so perfect for home users, is why on-line games that work perfectly in standard user accounts under Linux require admin access if they are to work under Windows. In fact, the vast majority of Windows games require admin access to run; game programmers seem to be totally incapable of writing their games to run without admin access. What’s up with that?

        • #3031290

          The only non Linux machine I use at home

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Yeah but try to

          An old Toshiba 1550 laptop with Win98 I use to run my collection of old pen plotters (as they run best with DOS) not connected to network. Every thing else I need a computer for is handled by Linux and ha been for about 7 years ago when I went from Win98 to Mandrake 9.2.

        • #3031154

          Me thinks Bob has toooo much caffeine

          by jcoleman86033 ·

          In reply to Yeah but try to

          At home 2 out of 2 computers run Linux Mint; hmmm that’s a 100%.

          Wish all my friends ran an up to date Linux distro then they wouldn’t be bugging me to fix their Windoze boxes or Internet Exploder.

          At work I had a slew of driver sets for our various HP & Dell boxes/laptops to get Windows loaded again when somebody hosed it with Viruses or Malware. Most of the time (I didn’t say every time because there may have been a rare occasion) a straight Windows install (XP SP2) didn’t have the drivers for the network, video, and sound cards. Ditto for the few Vista boxes we had. Dead in the water.

          I was (past tense) fairly happy with XP and careful on the Internet, etc. Then we got some puters with Vista – that’s what finally drove me seriously to try Linux and I haven’t looked back.

          Windows 7 is OK but looks like a handful compared to Mint & Gnome. Still playing with it so I don’t get so lost looking for something when my friends start to upgrade and call for help.

          Security?? – why does Windows need AV, Malware, secure this or that software??; hmmm. Rare things in the Linux world. I don’t run as root and use a good firewall.

          Buy a pre-installed Linux box or lappie from an Internet supplier and everything works, just like the big boys, and generally with better hardware.

          Just a few thoughts

        • #3031152

          What a dreary existence

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to Me thinks Bob has toooo much caffeine

          I’d rather be at the forefront of when shlt happens.

          Hear me, Chad?

        • #3032478

          I can’t use caffeine

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Me thinks Bob has toooo much caffeine

          Can’t use caffeine because of the damage done to my brain.

          So you are definitely wrong on that point. As far as viruses and malware goes, of course Windows is going to get attacked the most, it’s the most popular (by far) operating system for home use.

          If linux had the install base that windows has in the home I guarantee you IT would be targeted.

          Why do you think MACS don’t git hit with viruses and malware? I run OSX here too and don’t even have a freakin antivirus or antimalware on it. It’s not because OSX could NOT be attacked, it’s because it’s not has hated by the hackers as windows is.

          The hackers want recognition in their community for their exploits. Do you think they will get that recognition attacking Linux or OSX. OF COURSE NOT!

          It’s the POPULARITY of windows that makes it a big target. And to microsoft’s credit the are pretty quick with fixes through auto update.

          I have to question the skills of the people where you work if that much malware and virus activity was getting through your windows machines.

          I worked for a company that I guarantee was much larger than the company you work for and we never had those problems with our windows machines,

          Then again, we had people that knew how to protect windows properly, where it seems you had trouble in your company with that issue.

          Windows isn’t attacked or more vulnerable because it’s worse in the security area, it’s attacked hundreds of times if not thousands of times more by hackers wanting to get the glory in their circle.

          If you know what to do (and it’s not that complicated) you can protect your windows system fairly easily.

          I have never lost a windows system to virus or malware and that dates back to windows 3.1

          Again, you argument just doesn’t hold water. And here’s a tip… I’d look for some serious help with your windows talent where you work. No company should be having the virus and malware problems you have posted here in a professional IT setup…..

        • #3032480

          BULL!

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to In my experience

          you’ve got to be kidding. Installing windows 7 is simply expanding a prebuilt file that has been compressed, and then plug and play and registry information are put together to provide a desktop. I have installed windows7 and all I have ever had to enter is to tell it where to install, what timezone I’m in, and the computer name I wish to use.

          I’ve actually left the freakin room while windows 7 set itstelfl up.

          I’ve never left the room during a linux install. In fact, I remember a time when I was installing a distro and wanted to put the boot record for Linux on the primary linux partition, the root partition, NOT in the MBR.

          This was because I was using a very good 3rd party utility to manage my different operating systems.

          The GUI in the install gave me two choices, install the boot record on the root partition or place it in the MBR.

          Of course, I chose the root partition as I did not want the MBR updated by GRUB or LILO. Those things are ANCIENT compared to the rd party utility I use to manage booting.

          Well, you can guess what happened. The distro GUI was messed up, it installed in the MBR against my wishes and wiped out my third party boot manager.

          I am very technical, and I can prove that if any of you want to log on to my computer, so I was able to repair the MBR with the knowledge that I have.

          But if this had happened to a newbie it would have been a disaster. They would have had no idea what to do. They probably wouldn’t know what an MBR is or a partition table for that matter.

          But the fact is, Mr. and Mrs home user, whilst installing linux getting screens about MBRS and root partitions, will just take a wild guess.

          And there are other things installing Linux as well, what packages do you want, and half the time the dependencies are screwed up after the user makes the choice through the GUI.

          Yes, TO YOU and TO ME Linux seems simple to install, but really try hard, to put yourself in the shoes of someone that knows nothing about linux, and try to look through those eyes when installing it.

          There is NO WAY Linux is easier for a newbie to install than Windows 7, Vista, or XP for that matter. NO WAY.

          You are simply wrong.

        • #3032672

          Gotta agree

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to BULL!

          Since Win98, the Windows install has always been 2 or 3 clicks. Win2000, you can walk away, it eventually clicks for you. The last challenging Windows OS to install was Win95. Easiest way to install Win95 was with a Win98 boot disk

        • #3031659

          What distribution and how long ago?

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to BULL!

          I can’t remember the last time I wasn’t able to place LILO or GRUB where I wanted them on the platters. Actually, Debian Lenny had to have GRUB on the partition because Truecrypt needed the MBR. Mandriva was no different; /dev/hda, /dev/hda1, /dev/fd0 (mbr, primary partition, floppy) or “other” allowing me to select any applicable location.

          I can’t comment regarding win7 install from scratch by my Debian install is around an hour from bare metal to complete system including all the applications. WinXP + protection apps + office + user apps.. that’s always been more than an hour without a ghosted image to start with. (but again, I can’t comment from experience with win7 install and would imagine it’s greatly improved)

          One also can’t ignore the benefit of being the first or only OS a hardware vendor delivers drivers for with a new product. Some hardware companies are realizing that customers use the same hardware across different OS be it by going the Nvidia way or with open interface specs or driver source.

          (I still maintain that closed drivers for any platform are absolute madness. Compete through closed apps, sure. The code bridge between OS kernel and hardware has no justification to be closed.)

        • #3031143

          How about…

          by dhcdbd ·

          In reply to Sorry deadly, your argument doesn’t hold water

          acronyms specific to that OS which can be learned overnight.

          ie. VSAM from Google: (V)irtual (S)torage (A)ccess (M)anagment.

      • #3030354

        prove it

        by bobgroz ·

        In reply to Microsoft Windows 7 is the Microsoft attempt at copying

        show me proven statistics that the home market has more linux machines than windows 7. You made the statement, I want to see proof. I don’t care about servers; IBM has many more Z/os servers out there than Linux will ever have.

        Show me that people prefer Linux in the Home over Windows, I want to see your statistics and the source from whence they came.

        People at home are not running servers. Is this a surprise to you? Most of them don’t even own a router.

        But they enjoy Windows 7 (as do I) for games, multimedia, and easy computing. I haven’t had ONE problem with Windows XP or Windows 7 since I have owned either of them. Not one. And that dates back to 2002. Windows 2000 was awesome as well.

        Your interests are not the same as the mainstream home user. I’m not saying that’s wrong, but please don’t come on here and try to convince us there are more Linux desktops than windows – even in the server market.

        Show me the proof.

        • #3031343

          It’s quite easy to prove that there are more home use

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to prove it

          computers running Unix / Linux than Windows 7 because Windows 7, like most versions of Windows cannot run on systems.

          Nearly all the DVD Player / recorders run on Linux, none of those that don’t run on Windows. The majority of Video records and hard drive based recorders run on Linux (last I checked TIVO used Linux on all their gear), the fancy microwave ovens run on Linux, most cell phones run on Linux, just about anything in the house using a computerised control run on either Linux or Unix, if not, they have a special proprietary system but not Windows.

          Then, after all that, you move on to the PC market. The Unix / Linux group has a fair share of home user PCs being used, but they aren’t all counted as you don’t need to account for every copy used. The Mac uses a Unix based operating system, and I’ll let you decide if you want to count that in the Unix / Linux side of things.

          As to the total number of Win 7 systems, I’d be willing to bet that there are more home users using Win XP and Win 98 than Win 7. And that’s just within the Windows side of the market.

          As to reliable statistics, no one, not even Microsoft have any reliable statistics of what people use at home. Microsoft go with the number of licences they’ve sold, but they also have a habit of counting multiple licences related to the one computer system. Nor do they take off any numbers for systems where people have removed the licence or destroyed the computer.

        • #3031287

          Your mistake is that you see Linux as

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to prove it

          A desktop OS, in competition with Microsoft or Apple, in a niche market, but it is much more the Swiss army knife of the OS world.

          It is based on the Unix model, originally written by some of the best minds in the computing world at the time and has done the job for years.

          The big advantage it has is that by being open source, it is out there for those who are clever enough to take this and adapt it to do many different tasks rather than re-inventing the wheel every time they need an OS to run equipment that uses a computer. Servers and desktop machines are only a small part of this.

          Using a desktop computer to play games is just one of the many things you can do with a computer at home and there are many who have a home computer who don’t use their machine for this purpose and some of these prefer to use Linux as the OS for their home machine.

          The only reason that Linux is not commonly used as an OS for awesome gaming home machines is not technology related, but because no one has bothered taking the platform down this path on a large scale basis in terms of releasing all of the poplar games as Linux versions, maybe some day someone will, not that it bothers me one way or another, but because Linux makes better uses of a machines resources, given everything in place, native Linux versions of games, good drivers for high end video cards it would probably work well.

          Most don’t actually choose the OS for their home computer as the walk into an appliance store and buy one of the shelf, quite often the one that’s marked down on special, or the one that’s the shiniest and coolest looking.

          Those that actually choose the OS of their system would be Mac and Linux users and possibly the gaming enthusiast who will choose every piece of hardware and the version of windows that works best with their games. Most of the rest don’t care, they will use whatever the machine comes with.

      • #3031523

        linux is better

        by danerd ·

        In reply to Microsoft Windows 7 is the Microsoft attempt at copying

        i agree with deadly earnest, the reason windows is market leader is not because its better its all to do with marketing, remember the fight between vhs and beta video formats, vhs won not because it was better ( we all now know that beta was actually better )but because of better marketing.–cheers–

    • #3030560

      My 2 cents

      by nelsonhoover ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      I think the point he’s trying to make here is that needing to run a bunch of command line mumbo-jumbo, just to install some program or change some setting, compiling stuff and making sure all dependencies are there, is beyond the patience and skill level of your average former Windows home user. With Windows, under normal circumstances, all programs come with a simple setup wizard and 98% of the settings can be easily changed via a nice looking GUI. Not so with Linux.
      Don’t get me wrong, I think Linux is great but, as a Windows user myself, playing with Linux can take lots of patience and Googling at times.
      You have to admit, beyond simply running the pre-installed software, Linux gets a bit more technical than Windows (i.e. no nice wizards or GUI’s to just handle all the dirty work, etc.)

      • #3030551

        You understand.

        by bobgroz ·

        In reply to My 2 cents

        You really understand the state of the union. If I was still working I’d offer you a job 🙂

      • #3030447

        All Nix distros do what I hate about the software world

        by slayer_ ·

        In reply to My 2 cents

        Require millions of support installs. I still do not install .Net for the same reason, if it can’t run on it’s own, it can’t run. But in Linux (Let’s say Ubuntu or example) you check off a program to install, and [thankfully] it checks off 20 seemingly random support packages that must be installed.
        WTF???

        Even worse, in, for example Mandriva, these support packages won’t be deleted if you delete the program. Not always anyways.

        And it get’s worse.

        So far, Linux robustness has not been evident to me. I had a drive start to fail and write bad clusters, Ok, back ups, new drive, all fixed. All my VM’s VHD’s on that drive became corrupted file systems. An XP machine, a Win95, a Mandriva and a Win7.

        WinXP would not boot until I stuck in Hirens, booted to miniXP and did a Chkdsk /R which completely repaired the system and recovered all files. It now boots fine.
        Win7, when booted said it had system file damage (said on a balloon message on desktop) and suggested running chkdsk. So I did so, completely repaired.
        Win95, booted it up and my icons wouldn’t appear, couldn’t get to desktop, so I Alt + F4. brought up shutdown, and told it to boot to DOS mode.
        Once in DOS mode, I typed scandisk /Surface.
        Walked away, came back, it was done, fixed and system booted and ran fine.
        Mandriva… dead, I did plenty of googling, tried the install disk, just can’t get it back.
        This is a video I took of it failing.
        http://trevorsarchives.selfip.net/temp/Mandriva%20Demo.htm

        Could not fix it, somehow it became terribly damaged, but every disk check showed perfect. It couldn’t find it’s own damage.

        The results were, the XP suffered over 6000 bad clusters (mostly system fonts, a crippling thing to lose in Windows)
        95 suffered 4 bad clusters in used memory, 92 in unused memory.
        Win7 unknown, didn’t read it
        Mandriva unknown, it thinks there is none.

        Currently I have a copy of Mint on a USB drive with permanent storage so it runs like a normal installed OS. Works really good, good OS, finds my drivers perfectly and performs well. It’s only failing really is the weak software you are forced to use (Like Firefox, though nothing saying I can’t find something better, but USB is limited so not worth the effort)

        • #3030369

          well you could spend a billion hours googling…..

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to All Nix distros do what I hate about the software world

          typical experience you have posted for a home user. Yes I forgot about those packages. What a JOKE! Try installing and configuring Myth TV. It’s a NIGHTMARE. I’ll take Media Center any day of the week. You bring up a good point, linux can and will ruin current hardware. It’s very dangerous to run with up to date hardware. Leave it where it belongs – in small to medium business use. Where there are paid professionals to set it up and maintain it. This is NOT for home use.

      • #3030423

        I agree most people don’t know how to use the command line

        by deadly ernest ·

        In reply to My 2 cents

        but I’ve been using SimplyMepis Linux and Kubuntu Linux for four or five years now, and the only time I’ve run a command line was to do a ping to check something on the network. I use the command line in fixing Windows boxes on a regular basis as it’s the easiest way to do some types of trouble shooting.

        people who think you have to use the command line in Linux each day, just haven’t looked at any of the dozens of retail end user versions that are out there now.

        • #3030415

          Linux command line

          by nelsonhoover ·

          In reply to I agree most people don’t know how to use the command line

          I’m not trying to say the command line is evil, just hard for the average home user to figure out.

          And no, the command line is not used every day. But only once in 4 or 5 years? On Linux? Surely ye jest.

          Unless you stick to installing/using the programs listed in the package manager and only send email and surf the net. Oops, just remembered, I couldn’t even accomplish that without the command line. Had to run some command I found via Google to get Firefox to see and use the Java plugin. (sort of shows I’m a lot more familiar with Windows, doesn’t it)

        • #3030409

          only used the command line in Linux on this system the

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Linux command line

          once since I put Linux on it. I don’t do anything fancy with it, but In do use Open Office, GIMP, Bluefish, Fire Fox, Thunderbird, krename, settings control centre, Dolphin,, kaffiene, vlc, kdiskfree, menu editor, qparted, gparted, amarok, media player, k3b, knode, wine – forte agent, wings 3d, skype, and a few other apps – all through the relevant GUIs and not the command line. Only used command line for a ping when checking connectivity to my son’s machine recently – he had trouble finding the network after putting Win 7 on his system.

        • #3030402

          I don’t know why but…

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to only used the command line in Linux on this system the

          When I see command line instructions for Linux, I just can’t be bothered, but in Windows, it doesn’t bother me? I actually do a lot of command line in Windows, batch files, etc.

          Some strange mental magic voodoo stuff going on…

        • #3030381

          That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to I don’t know why but…

          .

        • #3031368

          MAN pages

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          What a joke! I’ll take windows help system over that crap any day. You can’t even read the damned things if you don’t know the commands to pipe them to more or less. They are about as easy to understand as running a nuclear power plant. No average home user in their right mind is going to sit there reading hours of that crap. Please wake up! Linux is a niche market operating system… period.

        • #3031340

          yeah, you should try reading some of the Microsoft Windows

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          help pages in the Microsoft manuals, oh, I forgot, they don’t supply them any more, do they? As to the on-line help, they depend upon what the writer of the software wish to provide, and that’s all up to the individual. But poor help pages can be provided by anyone.

          BTW The Linux / Unix man pages do have an equivalent in Windows, although I don’t think MS include it any more, and it’s just as hard to follow as the man pages as both are written for qualified techs to use. Just get a DOS prompt and type HELP – it’s still there in Win XP, but hugely reduced.

        • #3031326

          On-line help stinks, no matter who it’s from

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          Picture this:

          You’re a brand new computer user, trying to find out why you can’t browse the internet on your brand new Windows PC. You open Device Manager, double click on the network card, see that it is not working, and click on Troubleshoot. IE opens…page not found.

          Now what?

        • #3031265

          So does MS paid user support

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          I had to correct 3 mistakes in a recent support mail from MS which were causing the user no end of trouble.

          So much for paid support as well.

        • #3031249

          Windows help system

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          I’ve never had any trouble with the windows help system – especially in windows 7. I type in my query, and the system even gives me the links to where I need to go to do what I want. MUCH more advanced than a MAN page. You will never get that level of help from linux, because linux assumes the user is familiar with things like the etc directory, smb mounts, the config files, piping comands, the bash and other command prompts and scripting.

          Linux is great for small to medium server use…. PERIOD.

          It will never overtake the home desktop. Microsoft owns that along with Apple (yes I know Macs run on the unix terminal program, but the user doesn’t even have access to that unless he is very tech savy).

          Windows 7 is a fine desktop system for home use. I use it all the time and am very satisfied with it. All my hardware works, programs install easily, there is a terrific help system, there are mouse gestures, keyboard shortcuts, the UI is fast and light, it makes a great PVR, things like libraries and jumplists make getting at the things I want simple, I’m thrilled to death about it. All my games work and look fantastic without having to monkey with things like wine, etc. to even get them to look half as good.

          I’ll take a windows 7 desktop for home use above linux any day. When I’m at home on my computer, I don’t want to have to research and learn, I just want to use my computer to do the things I want….PERIOD.

          Until Linux can do that… and believe me at this point it cannot, I will ONLY use it for server duty …. period.

          Bob

        • #3031248

          I’ve never had

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          an ethernet card fail under windows. Never. Not even since windows 95.

        • #3031247

          If your that much of a wiz at linux…

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          Why would you EVER call for help with something as easy as windows to debug? That, my friend, is an anomaly..

        • #3031245

          So, you’ve never had an ethernet card fail

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          Congratulations. You have, as in your responses to others, either completely missed, or blinded yourself to, the point.

          Search the web some time for “I have a network connection, but I can’t browse”. Now picture yourself as a brand new computer user trying to use Windows on-line help to solve this problem. How is this better than Man pages?

        • #3031219

          bobgroz, why don’t you try some thinking and compare

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          oranges with oranges. The Linux man pages are NOT the help out there, just as the Microsoft Command Line Help pages are not the only help, but are the exact equivalent of the Linux man pages and are written in exactly the same way.

          One of the things anyone does when creating an application is to write a help file for that application, the Windows GUI is an application, it’s just that Microsoft have built it into the operating system kernel. They have a second help file for the GUI. Just as Linux have other help files with their applications, one for the KDE GUI and one for the Gnome GUI, and one for every other damn GUI that’s available for you to use. And they all operate the same way. Most are better than what Microsoft do, some are not – they depend on who write the program.

          Linux is much better than Windows for many reasons, especially Win 7. The only place Windows beats Linux is in the predatory marketing Microsoft uses to sew up the desktop sales in the retail department stores.

          Windows, especially Win 7, does NOT ‘just work’ it never had done so. The only reason it appears to do so is that you’ve bought a retail system where a tech at the company has spent many hours developing a special cut down version of Win 7 to run on the system you bought. They did it after spending hours carefully selecting hardware to work with Win 7. Anyone can spend the same number of hours doing the same thing for any system. Heck, Dell even has a few Linux boxes they did that with, you just buy them (only available from their web site due to their deal with Microsoft not to put them in stores) and turn them on.

          I suggest you take the copy of Win 7 you have and try and install it on another system that’s totally different to the one you have and not been specially set up for Win 7 to start with. Then you’ll learn the truth about Win 7.

          It’s very clear you’re not experienced with loading software from scratch on a machine built from standard components, and have only used systems you bought as complete retail packages.

          As I’ve said previously, you have the right to choose to pay Microsoft to provide poor systems and service, and we have the right to not pay them. However, since you’ve made it clear you know nothing about real basics of a non retail Windows or Linux system, I strongly suggest you cut back on the BS you’re sprouting – or are you really a Microsoft marketing person trying to boost sales.

        • #3031081

          Nick, because man pages

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          are not understandable to the average home user. They don’t even know the commands to use to stop them from scrolling past the screen. Windows help is much better than man pages for the home user …. period. If you think otherwise, give me what you’re smoking I want to feel good too.

        • #3031077

          Deadly you make incorrect assumptions

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          Firsts of all, the machine I use windows 7 on boots 5 different operating systems. I use acronis disk director suite (the boot manager that comes with it) to manage the boots.

          I installed windows 7 on this computer myself. Not only did I install IT but I also installed windows xp, windows vista and mandrake linux, ALL FROM SCRATCH. Don’t make stupid assumptions you know nothing about.

          You are a typical linux head ready to call anyone “simple” or “stupid” who does not agree with your views. YOu assume I bought this machine with win 7 preinstalled.

          That’s a rip at me, and I don’t appreciate it. You have no idea of my computer skills (which I know are about 100x what your’s are).

          Go google hercules and setup MVS. How many operating systems can you boot from YOUR machine.

          Each of the operating systems have pluses and minuses and I use them for their strengths as needed.

          I only use linux to browse the web. That’s it. I don’t run a server in my house, no need for it.

          And quit whining like a baby about marketing. If you’re so damned smart, put together a distro that works with all my hardware, and plays all my games that look as well as they do on windows 7.

          I’ve installed 100 times more operating systems than you have.

          No go set up hercules with the included MVS images you can download, set up a multi boot machine from scratch, and put together a linux distro that is as good as Windows 7 is for a home user.

          Geez, you are dumb. You can’t prove to me or anyone else that linux is better in the home than windows, so you make blanket statements about my technical abilities in a put down fashion. You, sir, are a typical linux freak blinded by stupidity…….

        • #3031071

          Ok this is anouying me, MAN page and MS help are not the same thing

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          This should be more obvious, but I will explain it anyways.

          MAN pages are to explain in detail, how to use a Linux command. This requires knowledge of the name of the command and the general idea of it’s use. If you do not know the name of the command, your SOL.

          Windows help, is a general GUI based help system for general help about common tasks in windows.

          Man pages have no equivalent in Windows. You would have to search to MS KB to find information on a DOS command.

        • #3031067

          Oh and I forgot Deadly

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          I also boot OSx from the same x86 box that has win 7, vista, xp, and linux on using an efi dongle that I attached to the USB header. Can you do THAT? Can you put together a “hackintosh”? Just to teach YOU something EFI is a replacement for the BIOS and is REQUIRED to boot a MAC. There, you learned something from a person you assumed bought a system preinstalled with software. How about that? You learned something from a dummy like me! Let’s all clap for Deadly’s technical prowess.

          Quit blowing smoke up my ass, and quit putting my technical abilities down. I build my own machines and install all my software on them.

          I’ve installed MVS at least 10 times in my life.

          Can you install an operating system that supports 40, 000 users concurrently?

          No I don’t work for Microsoft, I worked for a fortune 500 company based in Manhattan for 20 years. I was named in the top 10 % of system programmers by a journal published by my peers. If, anything, I’m and IBM fan. They wrote software you couldn’t even begin to understand.

          You’re not going to be able to bully me with your put downs and stupid assumptions about what I have installed and how I did it.

          Now go build a hackintosh, smart guy, and tell me the steps you used to do it so I can verify you did do it.

          I stand on my original post. For HOME USE the best operating systems in the following order are Windows followed by MAC. Windows is first because of it’s support for much more software and much more hardware. It’s a tie for ease of use between them.

          I care about the home user who is trying to learn, and I like the underdog. I’ve helped hundreds of people install windows – later versions -on their machines.

          Any NUT who thinks Linux is better for HOME USE than Windows or OSX impresses me as being a “newbie”….

          Bob

        • #3031065

          Sinister, don’t you think I know that?

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          My point is at least 50% of the time (and I’m being kind), when you need to install software or up to date hardware on Linux your primary resources are MAN pages and google.

          You will spend MUCH MORE TIME getting software and up to date hardware to work on Linux than on windows.

          Yes, I know Linux has some GUI help, but it SUCKS.

          Here’s an average home user that wants to install software to use his TV card. He finds something called Myth TV and gets excited about it.

          Then the hangover kicks in. He goes to his little linux GUI places a checkmark next to Myth TV and presses “install” or some variation of that.

          To his dismay he is bombed with messages about prerequisite software. Messages fly by very fast, the last one he sees is that Myth TV didn’t install correctly.

          Now he’s lost. He doesn’t even know where to look. Where are the logs, he thinks. What’s wrong? He sees stuff about “missing packages”. He goes to goole and searches on “linux missing packages”. He gets a general understanding of what that means, but what packages are missing? He further googles and finds oodles of hits on complex RPM commands. Now this guy really wanted to get TV up on this Linux system that is supposed to be so secure, so advanced.

          He finds something about MAN pages in google and starts typing MAN pages dealing with RPM management. But wait! The instructions fly by him, he can’t read what is at the top! How do I do that? Again he googles and finds something called “less” and something about piping a command.

          What is piping, he thinks? Now it’s 4am and he still has no TV on his linux box. He’s tired, punch drunk.

          After a few more google searches, he goes a linux board dealing with Myth TV and is scorched by other users making him feeling stupid and guilty for not reading a bunch of “how to’s” that some kind person lists in his post ( and their are very few “kind people” when it comes to newbies”

          Finally, frustrated, he says “the hell with it”, reformats his drive, installs windows 7 (which my 14 year old daughter can do) and immediately can watch TV in Media Center. Not only can he WATCH TV, listings are automatically downloaded for him, and he can easily RECORD shows – even a series of shows.

          Not one error message. Not one google search. Not even the NEED for a help system.

          Now you tell me, what system will that home user want?

          It’s not about MAN pages it’s about immature technology for the HOME user to make installation of hardware and software easy and workable – something someone without pretty extensive Linux knowledge does not have.

          Don’t lose the forrest in the trees. This is not a discussion about help systems or man pages (even though the windows GUI help system is leaps and bounds above any GUI help system included in Linux).

          It’s about ease of use. Software and Hardware support. It’s about USING your computer and not DEBUGGING it every time you want to add a piece of new hardware or install software…..

          Keep the focus on the topic – what is better for the home user Windows or LInux. I stand on truth. Windows is better for that segment of computing…. period.

          Home users are not setting up servers, or configuring Apache.

          They just want their computer to work, and use it for their digital camera’s (I won’t even GO into that with Liinux), printers, and all the good software that has been written to perform ease of use functionality in the windows environment.

          Everyone (except a few here) just can’t understand what is best for a HOME USER.

          I’m not against Linux, I use it to browse the web, and run hercules (yes hercules must be compiled on Linux to run optimally) – to run my copy of MVS which I use to keep my skills current in the slight chance some doctor is smart enough to be able to heal the damage done to me by two other doctors – I have two serious seizure disorders and have not been able to work for 8 years.

          Hercules has been wonderful to help me keep my MVS skills up to date.

          I used to get calls from competing companies with offers over $200,000 per year. If it had not been for my family, I would have checked those offers out.

          I’m NOT putting down Linux, it has it’s PLACE, but PLEASE don’t tell me that’s for the average HOME USER. That’s JUST PLAIN WRONG….

          Bob

        • #3031061

          bobgroz, the only smoke being blown around here is by you

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          You start out with a total BS about Linux not being ready for home use, when it’s much more ready for home use than any version of Windows since Win 98 SE. Next you bitch that Linux won’t run the hardware you have, simply because you buy hardware that’s specifically designed to run a certain version of Windows, well duh, of course Linux won’t run it natively. Linux is designed to work with the Industry Standards, while Microsoft Windows is NOT, Windows is designed to work with proprietary controls and requires special command exchangers, called drivers, to allow anything designed to industry standards to work with it.

          Naturally, unless the hardware manufacturers who build hardware to the Microsoft proprietary requirement put out drivers to allow their gear to work with Linux, or some third party takes the time to make one, Linux won’t work with that hardware – whoopy do.

          I see you regard the truth about how Microsoft conduct their marketing is whining, which just shows how little grip you have on the reality of the market situation and the laws. If I’m so wrong about this, why has Microsoft paid out around a billion dollars in fines and compensation for several lost court cases around their marketing strategy?

          In all the posts you’ve made, you’ve made it clear you have no real understanding of the modern Linux distributions, and you continually try to muddy the waters by comparing the command line Linux man pages with the GUI help screens – two totally different help systems aimed at two totally different levels of users with different levels of knowledge. The Microsoft equivalent of the Linux man pages is the DOS command line help that’s still got part of it installed in XP, and it’s done in the same way. The GUI help pages you get with Gnome or KDE are the same as the Windows help pages you speak so highly of, and, again, they are both very much the same. Try comparing like with like in future.

          All you’ve shown in your posts is you have NO understanding of what people need or use at home, except maybe a gamer, which is NOT your average home user.

          It’s clear to me you’ve got a fixed idea about Linux in your head and nothing will change that, well, as I’ve previously said, you do NOT have to use Linux if you do not want to. You can use whatevers available that you choose to. Sadly, that’s not the case for everyone, as not everyone has the knowledge to go past a retail store where some quarter trained salesperson, whose only interest is their commission sales targets, is all set to push some pre-built and preloaded system with Windows as that’s all you can get from a retail store, unless you go to an Apple store and buy a Mac.

          Windows has never been as good an operating system as Unix or Linux, for anything, it’s just got a better marketing team, but then, Linux doesn’t have a billion dollar marketing budget either.

          At this point, I’m getting a bit aggrieved with your insults and BS with the smoke and mirror, good bye.

        • #3031060

          At least I’m not overdosed on the MS Kool-Aid

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          There’s no having a rational discussion about the object of somebody’s worship.

          I’m outa here.

        • #3031055

          man…

          by jck ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          remind me not to piss off Ernest and Nick.

          :^0

          I got called a troll enough last week. :^0

        • #3031051

          Goodbye Deadly

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          You’ve missed the whole point of this discussion. This isn’ta discussion about help (gui’s verses command line help), those points were just brought up to TRY and get it through your thick head that windows is easier to use for Mr. and Mrs. America AT HOME than Linux is.

          I don’t hate Linux I use it, when I need it’s strengths.

          You tell me supersmart why do almost all people have windows machines at home?

          I’d be willing to bet well over 90% of people use windows rather than linux for HOME USE.

          Go ahead fan boy blame marketing, blame standards, blame whatever you want. I guess your just not up to DOING something about it to make Linux ready for HOME USE. But I’m sure you’re not that talented or that smart….

        • #3031047

          Dear bobgroz,

          by jck ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          I would like to say in answer to your question of why Windows is on so many PCs:

          Because most PC makers don’t sell PCs with Linux, and those who do show very little (if any) advertising for it.

          As for Windows being easier to use:

          Nope. They are both point and click, both have wizards, both have “control panel” type configuration managers, etc etc.

          And, installing (Kubuntu) Linux is actually fewer steps than installing Vista or 7.

          I don’t know why you would think it’s easier, other than familiarity with Windows.

        • #3032284

          “You will spend MUCH MORE TIME getting software and up to date hardware to”

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          “You will spend MUCH MORE TIME getting software and up to date hardware to work on Linux than on windows. ”

          Really???
          Even in Win95 days, it took a good amount of time. Only good thing back then is no “Default” drivers to worry about, when it booted up, it said “I found hardware, me want disk”. You gave it a disk and it said “Me want restart” so you clicked OK and it restarted, next piece of hardware.

          The time it took me to set up Mint on my system…. When, if we exclude driver download time (which was minimal) it was about 30 seconds.

          I opened the start menu thingy, it had a search, so I typed in hardware, it showed me my options, I choose detect hardware. it said, hey want to install the closed source drivers for your video card? I said yes, it said ok please wait…………………………………………………………………………………. Done, please restart your computer when you are ready.

          Done. I then proceeded to set up all the neat graphic effects and such.

          It then popped up in my tray saying there were updates. I clicked Yes and told it to install them. No required restarts or anything, it just went on it’s way.

          While it did this, I opened up Firefox, reminisced about why I hate firefox, then went to google, searched up Opera, went to their download site. Told it I was using Mint and it downloaded a file. I dbl clicked it and it installed. I then spent a bit too much time try to remove firefox, but the end result was good.
          Then I remember why I don’t use Opera either, but it was the lessor of two evils.

          Actually, the package manager was it’s the only real weakness to be honest…. I had to google for the programs I could install for the tasks I wanted, then the repository never seem to have them, but you could do a “Search” which searched “somewhere” and it usually found something on one of the 3 tabs.
          Frankly I would prefer the distros put more effort into quality, fit and finish and less on being cutting edge.

        • #3031877

          Agreed 100% with bobgroz

          by nelsonhoover ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          I’m not exactly a professional IT guy, more of an advanced tinkerer that gets conned onto helping relatives and neighbors, so therefore wouldn’t be classed as an “average home user”. But I think it safe to say, most of the people I’ve helped out would be “average home users”. There’s not a chance in a million (unless their needs where very basic and not likely to change ever) that I’d set any of them up with Linux, for the same reasons bobgroz posted further up. And it’s not like I don’t have any clue about Linux. I’ve been trying different distro’s off and on since Fedora Core 2 came out (I know. Young pup, ain’t he ;).
          I don’t want to be bothered every single time somebody tries to install some program they found at Wal-Mart or hook up some printer or needs some program to do this or that (QuickBooks for instance).

          And no, there is no good QB replacement. Don’t suggest GnuCash, etc. I’ve looked at all the popular ones. No inventory features. No check printing. Etc, etc.

          If Linux could use some consistent method of installing software across distributions and all needed dependencies (like Windows) that would be a big step towards being fit for the “average home user”.

          Also, half the programs for Linux seem to be perpetually “almost finished” and slightly buggy (I will admit it’s come a long way and there are exceptions to the rule). Most people, when it comes right down to it, would rather pay a little and have something that works and plays nice with everything.

          Of course die hard Linux guys can’t see what’s so hard about Linux, they’ve been running it forever and know all the tricks of the trade, so to speak. “Oh, you wannna do that? Sure, just recompile your kernel with these modules and away you go.” Ha ha. We’re dealing with home users here, some of them actually can’t figure out how to copy files off a removeable drive using explorer (or whatever file manager), much less anything even a tiny bit more complicated.

        • #3031867

          Nelson, I just have to ask

          by jck ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          [i]Also, half the programs for Linux seem to be perpetually “almost finished” and slightly buggy (I will admit it’s come a long way and there are exceptions to the rule). Most people, when it comes right down to it, would rather pay a little and have something that works and plays nice with everything.
          [/i]

          If that’s so, then why do people keep buying Windows? I think almost everyone (even home users) that have had a PC in the past 10 years knows what a Blue Screen Of Death is.

          Windows doesn’t always play so nice either.

          USB-based Palm 3.0 devices are one example.

        • #3031773

          You do have a point, but . . .

          by nelsonhoover ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          BSODs are not as common as some Linux guys would have you believe. I have seen my share of them, but most where actually related to a hardware problem (bad RAM, etc), not Windows just randomly crashing for the fun of it or software issues.

          Admittedly its not perfect but as far as ease of use (some would possibly argue that point) and driver and commercial software compatibility (couldn’t hardly argue that point), it’s currently the lesser of two evils for home users.

          Not that I’m personally against Linux. I do tinker with it quite a bit and would switch over completely myself if there where a good QuickBooks replacement and/or Wine being able to run a few more things.

        • #3031764

          Obvious.

          by seanferd ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          Do I need to say it?

        • #3031724

          Nelson, over the many years I’ve looked after systems with

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to That’s OK, just keep doing that vodoo, you do do, so well – nt

          Microsoft Windows installed on them – thousands of systems – two things I have noticed about BSODs:

          1. They can be greatly reduced in frequency by:

          (a) Increasing the system RAM, and

          (b) Installing some sort of RAM management software that clears the RAM of not currently used code on a regular basis.

          This is because many BSODs were caused due to Windows not fully clearing the RAM when an application was closed. One college I did evening courses at, to get the paperwork saying I knew what i already knew, they used NT 4 and we found if you opened Microsoft Word and closed it several times, there was not enough RAM left available to open it again, so the system crashed due to insufficient RAM. This was because Word didn’t clear the RAM it had used, and Windows didn’t do the job properly either, so some of the RAM would be tagged as being in use, despite no active application using it.

          2. Another way to greatly reduce the frequency of BSODs was to replace any hardware in the system with hardware that was certified by Microsoft as being ‘out of the box’ compatible with that version of Windows. Essentially, if the hardware was built around the Windows Command Set for the version you’re using, it worked better and Windows had less issues with it.

          Of course, the reverse was true. The more industry standard plain Jane hardware you had installed, the greater the risks of a BSOD. This is why many people who had pre-built systems built around Windows had few issues until they upgraded their version of Windows and found out the hardware did not work as well with the new version of Windows. This is especially true of systems from HP and Dell from the late 1990s to fairly recently – I haven’t had a close look at many of their latest offerings for Vista or Win 7.

          Ernest

    • #3031150

      If they didn’t go to Vista, most will be peeved at 7

      by jessie ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      I’ve got 7 running on my laptop… and just like XP, after about 3 months of the constant installing and uninstalling of programs that I put my systems through, it’s booting slower and slower. Tomorrow, I’ll be wiping my system clean and reinstalling the OS, then putting all my stuff back on there, so for about three months it won’t take 20 minutes to boot… and then we’ll do the whole thing over again.

      See, the problem here is NOT that Windows runs so much better out of the box… it’s that Linux folks don’t want to do home user tech support. For instance, Mint would be GREAT for a home user, if it came preloaded with openoffice, firefox, and some games. That’s all home user’s want. And let’s face it, the move from XP to 7 is going to require the home user to learn a new OS and programs so while they’re at it, they might as well learn a FREE one. The PROBLEM here is that there’s no tech support for the home user to call about their Linux machine when it goes wrong, like there IS with their MS computer… we need more Linux tech support if Linux is ever to be a real contender here. The lack of tech support is what scares people off because there are a LOT of distros out there that would work very well for the new at home user.

    • #3031059

      Look I can see I’m getting nowhere

      by bobgroz ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      It’s always the same with Linux fan boys. I’m tired. I’m fighting with seizures here, and don’t want to beat a dead horse.

      Go ahead, believe Linux is the greatest for home use. Maybe go to wallmart and find out why they stopped selling cheap linux preloaded machines for home use. Maybe they can get through to you.

      I’m not ruining my health over this. God knows I suffer enough with insomnia, depression, anxiety, seizures, tinnitus, intestinal pain (due to damaged GABA and NMDA receptors in my gut). Two smart doctors did this to me 8 years ago because they were too lazy to pick up a book and check out drug interactions. See my website at
      http://www.fqvictims.org , I’m one of those unfortunate victims.

      It hurt like HELL to loose the successful career I had, and the plans I had to start a business teaching large businesses how to use hercules to save hundreds of thousands of dollars on disaster recovery.

      Now I run a help line from my web site to try and help other victims of the pure poison the FDA and Big Pharma are pumping into american stomachs.

      You believe what you want. You’re wrong, but believe it.

      I wish you all the best….

      Bob

    • #3031058

      Oh and about the spelling

      by bobgroz ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      I used to write technical reports (part of my job) justifying huge software investments. It’s hard to spell perfectly when you are half seized all the time. It’s a miracle I can even write…

      Again, I wish you all the best…it’s been a blast.

      Bob

      • #3031057

        spelling

        by jck ·

        In reply to Oh and about the spelling

        I’ve picked on people before for it, but I look at it this way overall:

        I’ve read a lot of “professional” articles on here with misspellings, and these are by people paid to do them.

        I’m here (as you are) to gain knowledge, socialize, discuss, and have the full experience.

        If I were getting paid to worry about spelling/typographical errors, I’d worry.

        Besides, judging a poster on intelligence on their typos on here is akin to judge Einstein based on his penmanship.

        • #3032282

          Good spellers are bad programmers

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to spelling

          It’s a fact 🙂

        • #3032174

          Really?

          by jck ·

          In reply to Good spellers are bad programmers

          I got 3rd place in a state spelling bee when I was a kid, and I can program in a dozen languages (sorta…I think lol).

          Of course, I am weird like that. :^0

        • #3032137

          Piff 12 languages?

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Really?

          That’s like saying you know 12 different way’s to scratch your balls. But you still only need 1 or 2 ways to get the job done.

        • #3031912

          lmao

          by jck ·

          In reply to Piff 12 languages?

          Yeah, but if you’re really good and fast it can feel like you’ve got 12 hands scratching! :^0

        • #3031894

          if you can do front and back…

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to lmao

          …really fast, then I’d be impressed.

        • #3031866

          yes indeed!

          by jck ·

          In reply to lmao

          you’d be shocked at how adept 40 years of bachelorhood has made me. :^0

    • #3031056

      ‘never’ is a very long time.

      by charliespencer ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      Most users don’t install video cards. If they did, they might have as much problem with Windows as with Linux. I’ve had some troublesome ones, although it’s been a while.

      If the system comes with Linux pre-loaded with drivers for all the hardware, like Windows systems from the major vendors do, there’s no technological reason home users shouldn’t find a Linux system just as easy (or difficult) to use.

      • #3031050

        Not that long really…

        by jellimonsta ·

        In reply to ‘never’ is a very long time.

        “There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.”
        – Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of DEC

        😉

        • #3031037

          DEC? {nt}

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Not that long really…

          .

        • #3032356

          DEC/Compaq/HP

          by jck ·

          In reply to DEC? {nt}

          You know…

          HP is both a decent laptop/server/PC maker…

          And, a tasty sauce I like with my brekkie. 🙂

        • #3032349

          ‘Digital Equipment Corporation’

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to DEC? {nt}

          A big industry player in the 70s and 80s. They invented using hard drive space for virtual memory with their VMS operating system, and were huge in a sector of the industry then termed ‘mini-computers’ (as we called small mainframes in those pre-PC days). They were already on the wane when Compaq bought them in the mid-90s. Compaq pretty much abandoned what was left of their product line, and the merger with HP was the final blow.

        • #3032342

          yeah

          by jck ·

          In reply to ‘Digital Equipment Corporation’

          But, HP still uses their tech under their own brand.

          And, I know for a fact one of the major utility companies down here runs a TON of DEC AlphaServers which they kept under maintenance.

          And those were some fast boxes…and the price showed it. :^0

        • #3032336

          Gods, the maintenance costs must eat them alive.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to yeah

          I wonder if they’re under a third-party maintenance agreement, or if they have some barnacle-encrusted old DEC technician on staff.

          Where do they get parts? eBay and craigslist are not my preferred sources for mission-critical components!

        • #3032329

          Um

          by jck ·

          In reply to Gods, the maintenance costs must eat them alive.

          I’m not sure who did their maintenance. I just remember once an array drive failed, and by the end of the business day a tech was there with the replacement.

          And yeah, I think they paid for maintenance through the nose, but the costs of replacing dozens of those servers was astronomical too.

          Oh btw, I might be getting back in the utility industry…if this company will hire me. * fingers crossed *

          Not in NC like I’d hoped, though. Oh well. C’est la vie…

        • #3032321

          Me too, my last job was fortran under

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to yeah

          VMS to help move the MIS functionality on to LAMP servers. They could still and were sourcing reconditioned alphas and the guys there could identify the chips at a 100 paces.

          Thete were waiting for a vms and fortran ‘port to Itanium, for hardware replacement. Talking something like 75 machines, masses of inhouse interfacing to manufacturing plant, and near thirty years of software. Hardware replacement is effectively irrelevant in that sort of investment.

          I love working with VMS, it’s still my favourite OS.

        • #3032171

          yeah

          by jck ·

          In reply to Me too, my last job was fortran under

          the VMS systems admin there was a cool guy. I would hang out at his condo by the beach and we’d drink beer and play guitar.

          And yeah, they had gotten some Fortran environment from MS about the time I was leaving there. From what I understood, they were moving to a new telemetry system that was Windows-based (big mistake lol) and they were going to port some Fortran code over to the MS servers from the proprietary telemetry system they had.

          VMS did look cool tho. I never got to learn it. Unfortunately. 🙁

    • #3032156

      My .02 cents…

      by —tk— ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      Now I might not be considered a “home” user, considering I work in the IT field… But I do use computers at home :).

      Out of the 5 PC’s I use on a daily/weekly basis, 4 are xp, 1 Win7, and 3 Ubuntu.

      My File server/ print server is XP pro, with a Ubuntu 9.04 Virutal machine, that hosts my ssh/webmin/and translucent proxy.

      MediaCenter box is all Ubuntu 9.04 with XBMC media center, which has samba shares that pull from the file server. This box streams media files at 720p resolution, it would stream 1080i but my TV does not display in that resolution.

      My gaming rig is Win 7… Why? because games are not built for Linux, if they were, I would switch over. For a while I made a complete switch over, and got a few games to work with WINE, but the time it took… it just wasn’t worth it (to me).

      As far as your arguments go, I would say they are half a$$ed… Not to be mean, but when you built your box you did not plan ahaid… You did not research anything, or you would have known that ATI is not the best choice when running a Linux box.

      Win 7, is a real nice platform, it is easy to use, stable, and expensive (I do like it). Is it Lightyears ahead? Not a chance in hell. Everything (minus most games) on my windows 7 box I can do in Linux with half the hardware. My Media Center is an atom 330 CPU, 2 gigs of ddr2 ram, and an Nvidia 9300 mobile gpu…

      Linux would be great in the home, if people planned ahaid, researched what they were buying, and planned on what OS they wanted to throw on it.

      I researched all my hardware before I purchased it, I knew what I could/wanted to run on it before I purchased it… In turn everything went smooth.

      To cover a few points, I am not a Linux “fan boy” or a MS “fan boy”. I always say use what ever work, end of story. If you like Mac, use a Mac, if you like MS, then use it…

      Why would you try to run an OS that obviously would not play nice with the hardware? Now you are bashing a product, based on two things… You didn’t plan ahaid and you didn’t research it.

      Now what I would like you to do is install Windows 98 on your machine and let me know how the install went. If I apply most of your counters, Windows 98 doesn’t belong in the home market either.

    • #3032049

      Well this entire thread has more myths than a Greek Novel

      by shodges119 ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      I admin around 150-200 Linux Desktops in separate locations. Red Hat and Ubuntu primarily, 40-50 Linux Servers, 10 Solaris Servers, 4500+ Windows Machines and 600+ Windows Servers. We have a staff of approximately 100 people in IT. And you know what… If configured correctly most of these posts are crap. I have a huge group of my customers running Linux at home for the security benefits it brings. I also run Windows and Linux at home. Yes some games do not run on Linux… Hey heres another secret there are a ton of games I have that won’t run on Windows (And they are Free). Software Company’s want to make money… Period, end of discussion. So they write Games to the work on the most computers possible. That ofcourse is Microsoft Windows. You want to know another dirty secret… Virus writers DO THE SAME THING. They write their code to affect the most computers possible. Also in this instance that is Microsoft Windows. Right now I am throughly impressed with Windows 7… Few minor issues but in comparison to anything else Microsoft has released it is great. XP got there but lets not lie it took a few Service Packs to get it right. Ubuntu/Redhat have done an amazing job at getting their operating system to work out of the box and the reference to the Graphics Card is 1 card out of 100,000. Your getting your cards from places that sell the software mentioned above. Why would anyone make a card for Linux? They make it for the biggest profit. Regardless in an effort to not type a book… Go buy a Video Card at Best buy and try to get it to work in your Apple G5. Guess what it won’t. Does that mean that Apple has no place in the home. NO Apple sells you a complete system that works out of the box. Don’t even think of trying to change out it’s parts. Ok my end statment I promise… These types of posts are nothing but a this is my opinion and you better agree with it. Problem is it is based on your understanding and use of said operating system. I don’t claim to be the end all be all but a blanket statement of Linux will never make it into the Home User market is not only bold but almost ridiculous. Buddy its all ready in the Home User Market… You just can’t check Fortune Magazine and read about Bill Gates stock to judge that success.

      • #3032007

        I don’t think the OP has ever mentioned mac’s

        by slayer_ ·

        In reply to Well this entire thread has more myths than a Greek Novel

        could be wrong, its a long thread already, but I am pretty sure the OP knows about how Apple does their business.

      • #3031904

        Myths?

        by bobgroz ·

        In reply to Well this entire thread has more myths than a Greek Novel

        Is it a myth wallmart stopped selling desktop computers preloaded with Linux? Is in a myth that newbies to linux have to wrestle with xorg.conf to configure their computers?

        Is a myth that at least 80% (and that’s conservative) of all HOME COMPUTERS have windows on them?

        Maybe people at work use linux at home, but they know linux.

        I will not back down – windows is the BEST operating system for HOME USE period. Anybody that thinks otherwise AT THIS TIME is smoking drugs.

        Bob

        • #3031901

          And….

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Myths?

          quit the old linux whining about marketing, Bill Gates,etc.

          If the people that put together Linux were so hot, people would be running it at home (why would anyone PAY for an operating system when there is one available for free?)

          And it’s not just preloaded windows. Plenty of people I KNOW and I KNOW A LOT OF TECH PEOPLE run WINDOWS at HOME.

          I worked in a company that had well over 10,000 people in tech, and I talked to many of them about Linux, the reply was always the same….. “That’s for work stuff, I run Windows at home”.

          I do too, and I’m not sorry for it. I love windows 7. With good antivirus software (I prefer Norton antivirus suite), some good anti spyware software (like webroot) taking regular backups, I HAVE NEVER HAD A VIRUS BRING ME DOWN IN WELL OVER 15 YEARS.

          Sure there are no virus’s on Linux, that’s because nobody uses it at home!

          Until there is a much better and stable GuI, easy installation methods, support for all hardware that windows supports, and software (including games) selections that run easily without having to wrestle with things like wine (why do you think Cedaga has such hot thing going for linux gamers)

          LINUX WILL NEVER, I REPEAT NEVER OVERTAKE WINDOWS IN THE HOME ENVIRONMENT. THAT IS THE TRUTH, AND ANYBODY THAT THINKS LINUX IS GOING TO OVERTAKE WINDOWS IS JUST A FANBOY DREAMING IMPOSSIBLE DREAMS.

          I know the fanboys don’t like this truth, I know you probably hate me for stating it, I know you blame everything from marketing to hardware vendors not writing drivers, to television advertising, to hate for Bill Gates, but none of that matters. The people responsible for putting Linux distro’s together, and the people writing the software, the Gui’s the drivers, the installation methods, the available software, until THESE people finally realize THEY have to do something about it by putting out a much better product for the HOME USER, this will NEVER change.

          Over and out.

        • #3031895

          Needs games

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to And….

          Trying to sound positive here, but the only thing I can agree on is linux needs commercial games.

        • #3031862

          speaking of, Bob

          by jck ·

          In reply to And….

          Are you on drugs? :^0

          Listen…most people use a PC at home because of one of 3 reasons:

          1) It’s what was on the PC they bought.
          2) People don’t like to change.
          3) It’s what was needed to run the games their kids wanted.

          Obviously, you never saw Kubuntu 8.10. Fantastic GUI, easy to use and navigate, etc.

          Anyways, I wish you luck with your happiness with Windows. You’re right, so far Win 7 is pretty nice. But, I can power a Linux machine with a lot less hardware cost and take that money and buy me a new TV. 😉

        • #3032574

          Missing the point Bob

          by shodges119 ·

          In reply to And….

          My post was not saying all the myths were posted by you. I was evaluating all the posts. Alot of myths about what Linux can and can not do.
          Chill be happy with your Windows Machine. I love mine.
          I will be happy with Linux and Windows in my home and the fact my Kids can build their own machines and never have Graphics problems shows it’s not that hard if you understand which companies build cards that are dual compatible. Because I know your GeForce Card you bought for XP worked excellent on Vista from day one. And yes most people blamed MS. Guess what it was the vendor’s problem there too.
          It really has more to do with ATI and NVidia Drivers than with anything Linux or Windows can fix.

          Also I know he didn’t mention Apple. I did because they are now based on a Linux Kernel. OS-X and up are Linux Based Operating Systems so in a way Linux has two venues into the home.

        • #3031896

          what’s xorg.conf?

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Myths?

          Been playing in nix distros since 2002, never heard of this thing, is it a file?

          What’s it do?

        • #3031887

          it’s the configuration file for the display system in Linux / Unix

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to what’s xorg.conf?

          for the X GUI. You only need to do anything to it if you run a version of Linux / Unix that doesn’t have a GUI installed, or you have some weird and wonderful graphic card that doesn’t even give a nodding acquaintance to the industry command sets, or you’re running a 1990s version of Linux / Unix.

        • #3031861

          Ernest, I think that

          by jck ·

          In reply to it’s the configuration file for the display system in Linux / Unix

          the last case is what bobgroz is dealing with.

          I’ll send him an AM2+ CPU and motherboard, if you’ll send him a small HD, decent video card and a 2009 or newer CD of any major Linux distro.

          I’ve never touched xorg and been using Kubuntu for…2-3 years?

        • #3031853

          I did a college course that included Red Hat 6 and we had

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Ernest, I think that

          to amend one line in the xorg.conf file because, in the words of the teacher “The garbage systems the college bought have got what’s got to be the crappiest graphics card ever made.” He had all the MS certs and taught two different MS certification classes as well. I heard he had the same thing to say about the systems when he had people loading Windows onto the same hardware. And that was back in 1998/99.

          Since I switched to using Linux instead of XP Pro (after I got fed up with having to call MS Aust every few months for a new authentication code) back in 2004, I’ve not had to touch or amend any .conf file at all. I don’t know anyone who’s amended their xorg.conf file since the late 1990s.

          Sadly, I’ve only got nVidea graphics cards, and he’s already said he doesn’t like them, so I can’t send him one he’ll like and use.

        • #3031846

          Hm…well then…

          by jck ·

          In reply to I did a college course that included Red Hat 6 and we had

          I have a spare ATI laying around surely. Maybe we can put $40 together and get him a single PCIe slot mobo with onboard graphics of the ATI variety.

          I still don’t see what his beef is with nVidia. I’m running 2 8800GTSes in SLi under Kubuntu, and I never had to touch the xorg stuff.

          I did have to (in the early days of Kubuntu 8) have to mess with the /etc/network stuff, but that was before built-in Atheros support and WPA was native. I had to load wpa supplicant and stuff and mess with ifconfig, iwconfig, etc.

          See, that’s how I learned about Linux.

          That, and reading a LOT of wikis. :^0

        • #3031843

          Nix really doesn’t Like SiS graphics

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to I did a college course that included Red Hat 6 and we had

          Which is too bad, cause every system I have that would be perfect candidate for Linux, has a SiS integrated video.

          My folks use our really cheap office systems at home (since going out of business).

          My gaming machine the only one with a proper graphics card. Though not a SLI 8800’s. Not sure what you could possibly use that power for with Linux. I currently cruise around with my 9600.

        • #3031829

          Well….

          by jck ·

          In reply to I did a college course that included Red Hat 6 and we had

          My machine is dual boot. It’s my old gaming rig for playing Shadowbane and Civilization II and Age of Empires and all that.

          As for SiS graphics, many of the new, low-end mobos have ATI integrated 3000 series on them.

        • #3032487

          Something for you to learn about linux Sinister

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to what’s xorg.conf?

          One of the most common problems in Linux is a broken GUI configuration. The X Windowing System (Xorg) is the most common GUI system in use on Linux systems today. Unlike the Windows GUI, (which is practically inextricable from the rest of the operating system) Xorg is simply a program that runs on top of the base Linux system. Because of this, it can be easily repaired.

          The X Windowing System uses a file called xorg.conf to maintain the GUI configuration. It contains information about your graphics hardware, the driver it uses, (in the case of NVIDIA or ATI devices) your available screen resolutions, and even settings for your input devices. The best way to avoid any problem is prevention, so you should always have at least one backup copy of important files like xorg.conf and be sure to save a copy of the current working version each you make any modifications to it.

          Don’t panic if the worst happens and you find yourself without a working xorg.conf. The base system is probably still operational and it is possible to carry on without the GUI, although some distros might complain a bit if Xorg refuses to start. Many modern distros (like Mandriva, Ubuntu, and others) have a safe mode or recovery mode that provides a root-level command prompt.

          Read carefully BROKEN Gui system, COMMAND prompt, all rubbish in 2010.

          Yes, xorg.conf is a file, a very IMPORTANT file, as it contains the parameters for your video and other important hardware. If the GUI for xorg.conf breaks (and it does regularly with newer hardare), you must su to root and manually fix the file by hand.

          I don’t think most home users have the talent or the will to do this.

        • #3032483

          How odd

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Something for you to learn about linux Sinister

          I’ve never had this happen before, and I’ve been using Linux systems for a long time now. Often on new hardware.

          Maybe that is whats wrong with my Mandriva VM?
          Neon, is this possible? You saw my video.

        • #3031650

          I did.. I’ve been loosing faith in Mandriva sadly

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to How odd

          I remember seeing your boot load up to a GUI background lacking the login prompt box. Since the GUI environment loaded, I’d be more inclined to guess that some of the damaged storage included the login application. This would be something behaving badly within in KDE more likely than Xorg.

          With Debian or another apt-get based distribution, it would likely have been a simple fix to identify the broken package or have current X related packages reinstalled.

          I’m still rather surprised that after probably close to a decade of mucking with various Linux distributions, and many of those years RPM based ones, I’ve never had a hard drive corruption to recover from. I’ve chewed X more than once and back in the days when it really was arcane magic to even config initially. These days, it just works on my hardware and I spend far less time maintaining and updating the system rather than doing stuff.

          In the end, if hardware manufacturers put the same effort into other platforms that they put into Windows, this would all be a non-issue. The ones that do provide cross platform drivers demonstrate this. The one’s that do it right and release driver source or work directly with The Linux Driver Project, Kernel.org or X.org additionally gain the benefits of security and bug fixes along with faster development at lower cost.

          Not all make and model of cars are the same. Not all make and model of distributions are the same. That’s really what it comes down too. One can’t blame the faults of one Windows version on the others blindly. One can’t blame the faults of one distribution on the other’s blindly.

          I think our discussion originator needs to take a step back and a deep breath once they are don venting about whatever has them so bunched.

        • #3031517

          Purposly corupt one to try then

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to I did.. I’ve been loosing faith in Mandriva sadly

          Make yourself a virtual machine. Open up the virtual hard drive in a hex editor and change something (probably near start? not sure).

          Any change should cause a huge failure I’d figure. Perhaps equivalent to a bad cluster or two.

        • #3031435

          I may just do that

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to I did.. I’ve been loosing faith in Mandriva sadly

          If only to learn how to chew a drive in a similar way to your drive crash. 😀

          In the past, partial installs, random hard reboots and some other HDD unkind things haven’t managed to do it. I’ll have to have a go of doing it intentionally.

        • #3031378

          Or try shaking violently your computer while installing the OS

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to I did.. I’ve been loosing faith in Mandriva sadly

          Could work? Portable HDD would be better.

        • #3030962

          portable HDD would be required

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to I did.. I’ve been loosing faith in Mandriva sadly

          I wouldn’t intentionally shake my workstation to induce physical damage as I’d be using a VM guest for testing (no spare hardware around anymore due to VMs). I’ll have to find something that can induce file damage without hardware damage and within just th VM HDD space.

          If something gets decommissioned soon at work, I could also give it a half foot drop onto the workbench while it’s working.

        • #3031656

          Xorg.conf is not needed on all distros now either

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to Something for you to learn about linux Sinister

          X does hardware config on the fly during start up now in many distributions. Xorg.conf can still be used to supersede this but is more often not needed at all.

          If I break my Windows GUI, I don’t have much recourse without backups or a recovery install. if I break my X, the natural separation between platform and GUI presentation layer means I have a chance of fixing my X with one or two easy commands.

          (I’ll admit, I buy hardware known to work well across platforms which improves the behavior of all my platforms.)

        • #3031427

          nice to have standards

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Xorg.conf is not needed on all distros now either

          “X does hardware config on the fly during start up now in many distributions. Xorg.conf can still be used to supersede this but is more often not needed at all.”

          Nice to have standards. Sometimes it’s needed, sometimes it’s not (but you can still use it), what a joke.

          I’ve never had a windows gui crash. In fact, all the family and friends I have supported over the year have never reported that problem to me.

          If it does happen, it can always be fixed by safe mode or if that does’t work there are tools on the installation disk to take care of problems like that.

          Now the Linux Gui, that’s a whole new ballgame. I’ve had crashes, dumps, been thrown into a command prompt, etc., especiall when upgrading to current hardare (espeially graphics hardware – i.e. video cards).

          No HOME USER is going to put up with that crap. When they install their shiny new ATI or NIVIDIA video card, the GUI won’t crash, games will look fantastic and they will have many more game choices than tux.

          Don’t BS me and tell me the Linux GUI is better than even XP’s GUI. And compared to windows 7, linux lags even further behind.

          Xorg.conf is an important part of ALL linux distributions, no matter what you say. I have many times have had to go into it and modify it’s contents by hand with no GUI help. Thankfully I understand the file and can manage it. But most HOME USERS don’t even know it’s there.

          BTW the “Linux guru” that posted and didn’t even know what xorg.conf is, should order some updated books on Linux and learn about the changes to the newer distros….

        • #3031406

          heaven forbit anyone should have options without your approval

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to nice to have standards

          So let me get this strait. Your claiming that X.org being able to configure it’s hardware during setup or read settings out of a config file is a disadvantage of some sort? Do you also take issue with this strange ability for people to buy a car from more than just Ford in more colours than just black?

          And do you really want to get into a discussion about standards given the frequency with which Microsoft breaks standards in the name of higher profits rather than better end user experience?

          “have never reported that problem to me”

          If my support guy was as close minded as you apear to be. I’d go elsewhere for help also.

          “Don’t BS me and tell me the Linux GUI is better than even XP’s GUI. And compared to windows 7, linux lags even further behind.”

          Ah.. I see.. you don’t actually know what your talking about. Which Linux GUI, which Linux distribution, What version. When was the last time you looked at modern distributions? How many of win7 and Vista’s GUI elements existed in no other DE previous to the finally delivered Longhorn?

          I’ve had no trouble with Nvidia on Debian or Windows. Sinister has had no issues with Mind and, what I’m guessing is, a pretty bleeding edge beast of a GPU. When your done venting this frustration you’ve work yourself into, would you like some help getting your system working? Or did you just want to continue making claims without any hands-on experience?

          Also, the “Linux guru” as you contemptiously refer to SinsisterSlay is actually a fellow Windows user primarily and an extremely heavy gamer to boot. They are actually fairly new to Linux based platforms as more than just a five minute look. I dare say that they offer a far more educated and balanced opinion than anything you’ve had to say thus far. (I say “they” meaning a single person because gender is irrelevant and I didn’t want to specify either way)

          Tell me again about how everyone is blindly attributing falsehoods to your character with you only the poor victim trying to defend yourself from accusation and injustice cause I don’t think that joke is ever getting old.

          (PS; I’m still waiting to hear about that website you posted due to medication caused harm. Completely separate from our disagreement on technology, that is a topic with real life consequences. The bottom of this comment is not the best place for a re-request of the URL. private message it over if you like but I’d be honestly interested to read it over.)

        • #3031036

          Me? Guru?

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to nice to have standards

          I don’t think you can stroke that part of my ego.

          Still trying to figure out why when I click Save config in Mint on the display settings, it comes up saying “Cannot Parse xorg.conf”.

          Also can’t seem to get it to project to my TV screen (Hooked up via PC-VGA plug). It knows it’s there but it keeps saying no signal. I assume there should be an easy way to do it. It’s the nVidia control panel, so I cannot really blame the distro. Though I had a look at the distros native config and it’s nasty looking.
          So far I am doing beyond what a home user should do. Considering I know some complete computer ignorants set up their HD TV’s on their own, attached to a computer. XP/Vista/W7 made it too easy. Restart your computer and suddenly it knows you have two monitors. Click the Extend Screen checkbox and it magically works.

          Also got to find a better video players for Linux. The default one in Mint works and can play all my files BUT it lacks a lot of options I want. Such as ability to remember song position, ability to use different rendering methods, and ability to change sound device (so it uses the integrated sound and thus uses the TV’s speakers rather than the PC speakers).

          -Edit
          A thought, maybe it doesn’t have a xorg file. Failed to parse could be a general error handle for any sort of error during saving. I am just using a USB version with perm storage on it, so that could be it.

        • #3031019

          Sinister, is the application you’re trying to save in a Mint one

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to nice to have standards

          or the nVidea one? I ask, as to save to a .conf file usually requires you to be in Super User or Root mode and some third party apps are not that good at triggering the SU mode.

          I’m no Linux guru either, with only a few years actual proper experience with it, but I do find my copy of O’Reilly ‘Linux in a Nutshell’ very useful to understand what’s happening, in general. I first had exposure to Linux back in 1998 with red Hat 6 in a college class I was doing as one of those needed to get the qualifications to say I know what I’d been doing for the last couple of decades, but never got around to doing much with Linux until I dumped XP to go to something that wouldn’t crash and burn every few months due to Microsoft corrupting what had been a good install with a forced update it wouldn’t let me refuse.

        • #3031007

          Its the nVidia one

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to nice to have standards

          I should be the super user far as I know (i never get prompted for a password before doing any other changes)

          But it sounds kind of dumb that it would require administrative rights to do something simple like change resolution.

          so its
          chmod 777 /etc/xorg.conf
          ? for all permissions to everyone for that file?

        • #3030991

          yes, chmod is how you change the permissions, but beware

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to nice to have standards

          as 777 means anyone can change it at any time – you may wish to make the change and then run a chmod 555 to restrict everyone to read and execute ability only. The full command should be

          chmod 777 filename

          chmod 555 filename

          the filename should also include the path on how to get there from where you are, unless you’ve already switched to the directory the file is in. In my system the xorg.conf is in the path //etc/X11/ so giving the command from root would be:

          chmod 777 etc/X11/xorg.conf

          or

          chmod 777 //etc/X11/xorg.conf

          depending upon how that Linux distribution is looking for the path information to be formated. If I move to the X11 directory first, then it’s a simple:

          chmod 777 xorg.conf

          NOTE: This will only work if you are already root or the user you are already has the right permissions to change that file in that folder.

          Damn, haven’t done that sort of command line stuff for ages, but a quick read of Linux in a Nutshell, and a bit of memory of all the times I’ve done that stuff in DOS and the one class on Unix and one on Linux back in 1998, and it all comes back to me.

          My most command command line stuff today is still basic DOS stuff on Windows boxes, usually a ping or ipconfig or iprenew command to fix network problems because different versions of Windows don’t like playing with others.

          edit to add

          The Linux permissions can be given in a couple of ways, but the easiest are as a three digit number. Each digit is a value for a user level: User – Group – Others. The values are: Read – 4, Write – 2, Execute -1 and you add together the values you wish applied. Thus read/write/execute = 7 while read/write = 6, read/execute = 5, execute only = 1 etc. So a read/write/execute for the user is 7 in the first spot, a read/execute for the group is 5 in the second spot, and a read only for others is a 1 in the third spot, making it 751. So 777 is read/write/execute for all, the best for general usage is 555 to give read and execute permissions to everyone; or 755 giving the user who created the file full permission and limiting others to read and execute.

        • #3030961

          chmod 777.. no no no..

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to nice to have standards

          With chmod, “7” means read/write/executable. making xorg.conf executable will likely only return an error if it somehow gut run but adding 777 to a file blindly is just a bad habbit to get into. This is like putting all user accounts in the Administrator’s group rather than properly managing privileged setting on Windows.

          If you must open up permissions on that file at least leave out the executable bit; chmod 666 xorg.conf (resulting in read/write owner, group, world). This isn’t great but it’s much better than blindly 777 everything. Either way, remember to give it a chmod 644 (owner read/write, group read, world read) once your done with it being opened up.

          Other options would be using “kdesu nvidiaconfig” where you’ll have to replace nvidiaconfig with whatever the config’s correct name is. You could do that from the start menu’s Run command (like Start -> Run) or from a terminal window (xterm, eterm, konsole..). You should then be asked for a root password in the same way that Windows Runas works. You’ll at least be sure that kdesu is running it with root privileged.

        • #3031864

          Answers Bob

          by jck ·

          In reply to Myths?

          [i]Is it a myth wallmart stopped selling desktop computers preloaded with Linux?[/i]

          Wal-Mart based it on profit, not usability of the Linux OS.

          [i] Is in a myth that newbies to linux have to wrestle with xorg.conf to configure their computers?[/i]

          Yes, that would be a myth. I’ve not had to touch xorg.conf yet in Kubuntu.

          [i]Is a myth that at least 80% (and that’s conservative) of all HOME COMPUTERS have windows on them?[/i]

          Over 90% of Home PCs are Windows, but again not because of Linux unusability.

          See, Microsoft had a 12 year headstart and money as a commercial enterprise to fund it.

          Most Linux innovation has come out of enthusiast, student projects, etc., up until about 2003 or so.

          [i]Maybe people at work use linux at home, but they know linux.[/i]

          I know all my Linux from experimentation at home, and even implemented it at a job because of it.

          [i]I will not back down – windows is the BEST operating system for HOME USE period. Anybody that thinks otherwise AT THIS TIME is smoking drugs.[/i]

          A) I don’t do drugs…sorry to burst your bubble

          B) Depends on your idea of best.

          Windows = best for software availability: Yes.
          Windows = best for availability in stores: Yes

          But…

          Windows = easier to use for a total newbie to computers? No.
          Windows = cheaper? No
          Windows = more stable? No
          Windows = more secure out of the box? No (through Vista)
          Windows = more support? No

          To a TOTALLY new person, Linux is just as easy to sit down with an Ubuntu for Dummies book and learn as it would be with a Windows PC and a copy of Windows 7 for Dummies.

          If your idea of “best” is the ability to get any game, sure Windows has the advantage. Of course, Windows was the *only* major player for a decade after Mac initially crapped out in about 1989.

          In reference to Kubuntu Linux:

          Linux is very usable. Linux is very fast. Linux is very secure. Linux has wizards. Linux has an updater to let you update and keep your machine secure and running well and get the latest version.

          And best of all.

          Linux is free, and so is most of the software for it.

        • #3032569

          Thank You jck

          by shodges119 ·

          In reply to Answers Bob

          I chose not to break out his comments that way but someone had to.

          I took it that no one would change his mind. Misled as it is, it is his opinion.

          I would love to sit him down beside me and have him configure a Windows box and I configure a Ubuntu box on the same hardware. I think he would be absolutely amazed how far it has come.

        • #3032543

          Agreed

          by jck ·

          In reply to Thank You jck

          I mean, I just loaded a box with a Windows XP Professional x64, Windows 7 Professional x64, and Kubuntu 9.10 x64 triple boot.

          I can tell you for a fact, Kubuntu Linux was the fastest to configure the installation.

          When I booted all 3, Kubuntu asked me for no drivers. It had even configured my Wireless-N card.

          The only thing I had to load? ATI’s Linux-based Catalyst solution with the 9.12 drivers.

          Windows XP and 7 Pro x64s both asked me for device drivers after reboot.

          So, the Kubuntu install was the easiest and fastest.

          I can understand a lot of people think Windows is the “best” because you can get the most games, more computer stores/shops support Windows, etc.

          But, Linux has since I started using it back in college (around ’91 or ’92) has come a LONG way. I mean, Linux back then was basically like DOS 4 or 5. And with something like Yggadrasil Linux, getting X11Rn to work was a nightmare.

          But now, installing Kubuntu Linux is like Windows:

          – Put in the CD/DVD
          – Boot from it
          – Make username, timezone, language, install partition, GRUB boot decisions
          – Let it install
          – Remove CD/DVD and Reboot

          And soon, I’ll be working with Wine to see if I can actually run some Windows software from an NTFS partition.

          If so, I’ll be playing Shadowbane through Wine when the Emu project gets completed.

    • #3032582

      the bad old days

      by lucien86 ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      Have to say that I dislike Linux but thats largely because I loathe Unix. Spent far to many hours trying to do the simplest thing battling through labyrinthine man pages that inevitably don’t even contain the right piece of information at all. And filing systems, sure microsoft is bad but the unix file structure has to be one of the ugliest things ever created by humankind on Earth. The trouble with unix is that it was written before the concept of ‘user interface’ was invented.

      Have to say that the real difference between Windows and Linux is in the software polish and there’s no getting around that. In general most open source software tends to be a little more clunky and difficult to use than its commercial rivals, and again its the same old complaint of terrible manuals or worse no manual at all.

      Actually though Linux is in the home – I believe that both the PS3 and Xbox360 are built on Linux based operating systems.

      In my work I do a great deal of strategic type analysis and I think that the world in general has a desperate need for a brand new general purpose operating system written from scratch. With a complete new architecture and design, and maybe even a new CPU and hardware platform to. (Ok I’ll admit my own application area needs these things particularly badly.)

      • #3032651

        well stated

        by bobgroz ·

        In reply to the bad old days

        Lucien,

        You really seem to have a handle on the situation. I happen to be a “command prompt” type of guy because I worked on the supreme operating system – MVS. You wouldn’t believe the sheer power of that IBM monster. It runs a full posix complient unix as a mere thread. IBM runs their webserver on the unix thread that runs off the mvs. Unix is just another application that runs on MVS.

        The reason IBM put it there was so that MVS could absorb all the server, GUI work as well as the mammoth text based work it runs.

        We never IPL’d (booted) the machine. Maybe once a year. Adding hardware was completely dynamic. You could add a string of DASD (hard drives) on not have to re IPL (reboot). Also several instances of MVS were run together (we ran 4) so that if one operating system got sick, it dynamically swapped it’s work to another healthy running copy of MVS. To the end user it appeared there was 100% up time for the entire year. Linux (and unix) for that matter is a joke compared to MVS.

        MVS runs western civilization. If it were to “go away” all major banks, financial institutions, fortune 500 companies, the military, even disney world would come crashing to a halt.

        Working on that system was tremendous pressure, and I did it for 20 years. It finally took it’s toll on my body and I developed an autoimmune disease called “prostatitis”.

        Two doctors (one of the a supposed expert at temple university hospital) in temple, fed me a powerful antibiotic called cipro in a class of antibiotics known as fluoroquinolones. In addition, for pain, I was given a powerful prescription NSAID called “Vioxx”. Vioxx has since been pulled off the market as it killed more Americans than died in Vietnam.

        It was well documented never to give a patient a quinolone antibiotic with any NSAID.

        Both medications work on something called the cp450 pathway in the liver. In essence the Vikoxx suppressed the cp450 pathway enzymes in my liver so I could not metabolize the quinolone.

        The quinolone subsequently broke through the blood/brain barrier and I suffered irreparable brain damage.

        You can see my website at http://www.fqvictims.org

        I would warn anybody here never to take a quinolone antibiotic. Even if you have in the past and have not had any problems, these drugs are fat soluble and remain in the body for years, 10+ years sometimes.

        Everybody has a threshold and eventually what has been stored in the body will combine with a “new” script someone may be taking and BAM! life as it was known is over.

        I live in constant pain. Mental pain. Severe anxiety and depression, borderline seizure activity, insomnia, ringing in the ears, hot sweats, cold chills, suicidal ideation, I could go on and on.

        If you go to youtube and search on “bobgroz” (without quotes) and watch the video “Prescription Drug Reaction to Cipro and Vioxx” you can see the sheer hell I’ve gone through. My family filmed the agony and torture blasted upon me in this wonderful democracy called america or the united states. Little do people know 60%+ for the FDA comes from the DRUG COMPANIES. Also, the DRUG COMPANIES have bought the television with all their high paid drug ads, they have bought the legislators and had to actually be sued to put a black box warning (the strongest warning on a drug) on quinolone antibiotics.

        I would advise anyone reading this thread never take a quinolone antibiotic such as cipro or levaquin or floxin or avelox or tequin or trovan or factive, etc. and insist on older safer antibiotics from your doctor.

        I have lost all my bottom teeth because quinolones bind to calcium and rot away the teeth and bones.

        I’m 51 years old but have the body and mind of someone in their 80’s. I have suffered torture for 10 years, lost a 6 figure career as an MVS systems programmer for a fortune 500 company based in Manhattan. I had worked there for 20 years. I was in the top 5% of systems programmers (as decided by my peers), and lost a job I loved very much. My marriage fell apart 4 years after being permanently brain damaged, and have been forced to move into my widowed 74 year old mother’s home. My 14 year old daughter also lives here. I have missed her entire life growing up – for the first 2 years I was in bed 24×7. I needed 24×7 care.

        I live on social security disability + long term disability from my job. It’s not near what I earned working, but I can pay my mother a fair amount to live here with my daughter. If I had to live alone I would be dead.

        I only posted this tread because I read something in Tech Republic about on a board about Linux being a great operating system for home use. Knowing that was total absurdity, I just had to vent and correct the error in that thread.

        Someone named deadly something put me down early in this tread telling the community I probably only bought computers with operating systems already installed on them.

        I can’t stand mediocre hobbyists acting like real programmers and putting down someone they know nothing about so I told him where he stood with me. Of course I’ve been blamed for being mean or nasty, but in truth HE was the first to put me down. I was just waiting for it anyway. These linux “gurus” (at least that’s what they think they are) love to put down someone who does not share their views, even if that someone is right.

        You are very correct. Command prompts are something of the past as far as a home user goes. Complex commands to install software are also something of the past.

        Sloppy, buggy GUI’s that are just copies of windows GUI (notice how linux has a “start” bar with cascading windows – just like windows invented back in 1995 – except it doesn’t work nearly as well. The GUI is about as stable as a broken leg, and often it is imperative you understand the command prompt to even begin to think of running Linux.

        This is very outdated software for home use. It is circa 1970’s with a sloppy GUI slapped on to make it look modern. Whether it be KDE or GNOME it’s all slop.

        People in this thread have reported they installed windows machines in their place of business – all of which failed. That should give you or anyone reading any of this a barometer of their level of expertise. If you can’t give your users working windows platforms, you are a sorry technician. My 14 year old could achieve that task.

        With things like jump lists, homegroups, libraries, mouse gestures, easy ISO management, great multimedia tools out of the box, a wonderful media center included, windows 7 simply stomps Linux to death when it comes to HOME USE.

        Watch for future releases of Linux distros. They will try to copy the above features, but it will be sloppy and won’t work half of the time. That’s because the people who write linux code really are not paid professionals.

        They are hobbyists, probably fair to good coders, but they are all over the place with no place of central management. “Contributions” are written into the operating system in a mish mash sort of way, and the result is a buggy, crash prone, confusing morass called an “Operating System”. It makes for a good server, and has a good HTML server in Apache, but beyond it’s use as a small to midrange server for small to midrange businesses, it’s nothing that great.

        I predict it will go the way of OS/2. It will become less and less popular as windows continues to grow and mature into a solid Operating System. It is already struggling for maybe 10% of home user desktop market, and that 10% is comprised of Linux fanatics.

        It will not last. You just can’t get a free lunch. That’s a basic principle. If you don’t pay, you get what you pay for. Pay for nothing, get nothing.

        I’m happy to pay 200 bucks for a copy of windows 7, it’s a pleasure to work with at home – I just love it.

        Thanks for backing me up. You are courageous to tell the truth to a pack of Linux wolves and I highly respect you for that……

        Sincerely,

        Bob

    • #3032687

      Macintosh Irony

      by dcolbertmatrixmso ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      Bobgroz, you won’t find that I disagree with a lot of what you have to say in your post. I just struggled, for the third time, with rebuilding a Dell with an odd Nvidia card in it that requires manual tweaking of the xorg.conf file in order to display at resolutions above 800×600. This is a setup that any Win release all the way back to Win95 would configure perfectly.

      But, I disagree that being *nix based means that you can’t have a strong non-business niche.

      Right now, both the Macintosh and Android (and countless other embedded devices) prove this theory wrong.

      As a matter of fact, at the Enterprise level, the IBM XIV storage solution allows the most Jr. level of system administrators to administer a San type storage solution, and this is a Linux based interface.

      Macs are the preferred PCs of those who don’t *ever* want to know what editing a registry or command line config file is like. Yet, they’re based on not just Linux, but full blown Unix.

      Linux has no cohesive business strategy, because Linux is not a cohesive corporate presence. The same anarchy that the Linux celebrates is the one which will prevent it from ever having a strong desktop OS presence, for as long as the desktop OS presence is relevant.

      Furthermore, in order for Linux to ever become centralized enough in authority and execution to become a significant game player, it will have to become so much like the OS X and Windows model, it will be virtually indistinguishable – as far as corporate ethics are concerned.

      If Google gets their way, we may just all live to see that day.

      That sounds like a hollow victory for Linux. You’ll be freed from your Microsurfdom, just in time to be enslaved by the Google Cloud.

    • #3032648

      Microsoft Windows, the best set of stolen software you can buy

      by deadly ernest ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      I just love it when people talk about the great software developed for PCs by Microsoft, yet that’s still to happen.

      MS-DOS bought from another person for a song and licensed to IBM.

      Windows, stolen from Apple Mac when Gates was working a joint project with them. Simply because it was a good idea and they hadn’t patented it. Including the menu system.

      Internet Explorer, stolen from Mosaic, because it was a good idea and they hadn’t patented it.

      The same for the rest of the software Microsoft has released as theirs, usually bought today as it’s getting harder to steal, except from the Open Source community.

      The fancy Aero graphics in Vista and Win 7 are stolen from the Glass 3D for Linux, and Mac.

      The concept of the User Account Control is the Microsoft application of the Unix / Linux SUDO process, and not as well done or as well secured.

      The only actual work Microsoft has done is to amend the software to nestle Windows into the DOS code they started with and slowly willow out most of the DOS as they reset it to work directly with the Windows GUI application instead of the DOS operating system.

      ……………

      When Microsoft introduced the Ribbon System in MS Office 2007, they ignored criticisms from people who wanted the old style menus and customised toolbars. The result of this is many people who are no longer happy to use Microsoft Office as it’s much too different to what they know and they aren’t interested in learning a whole new system. Microsoft still ignore the reports from consumers that they want the old style menus and customised toolbars.

      One outcome of this I’ve seen is some organisations are switching to using Open Office as it’s easer and quicker to have people switch to Open Office from previous versions of Microsoft Office, than to switch to Microsoft Office 2007. One organisation I know of has done the switch as most of the people who use their computers are older volunteers, and don’t have the time to do training to use the new Microsoft Office. This organisation alone is a loss of over 10,000 Microsoft Office licences, and there’s no telling where they’ll go when they have to give up using Windows XP as they’ve already found out their people don’t like Vista or Win 7. Most of these volunteers also own and run small to medium businesses, and some are executives in larger organisations. You can be sure that the change over will be mentioned and discussed in their work places, too. And who knows where that will end.

      ………………..

      Over the years, Microsoft have spent a lot of time and effort creating proprietary standards and pushed to have them made the industry standards. So far, none have been made the only official standard, and some have all but fallen by the wayside as the official standard was universally accepted. none of that has stopped Microsoft from pushing their own stuff at the industry, in efforts to get them used as de facto standards. Only time will tell how well the Microsoft efforts to lock everyone into their software and take control of the industry go.

      • #3031671

        how many copies

        by bobgroz ·

        In reply to Microsoft Windows, the best set of stolen software you can buy

        of windows do home users buy verses linux. You guys always whine but never do anything about it. I’m tired of your incessant whining. Would you like cheese with that whine?

        Freakin do something about it, Linux. And don’t say it’s impossible . You need to innovate and greatly enhance your quality control standards. YOu need rock solid GUI’s with no command prompt (except hat is needed by tech support).

        People install software and dependencies screw them, they are knocked down by decisions to make something modular or direct in the kernel. They don’t even know what a kernel IS.

        Yeah, maybe tux racer will install without problems, but the stuff they see in the install buckets they really want won’t go on.

        Microsoft didn’t steal anything. Stealing is against the law. I haven’t seen Microsoft sent to jail. They had the vision to see technologies that would be needed and grabbed them. That is due to their vision, not because they stole anything.

        Your argument is crap. It’s whining crap. All you linux heads do it. Believe it or not, Linux has a very small market share into ANY market, but especially into the home desktop market.

        I like the ribbon style in the office products, as I’m sure many people do. It makes so many task so much easier.

        Open office is decent but it’s no Microsoft office. And who wants to relearn a bunch of new software anyway?

        Why are we talking about Open Office on a Linux vs Windows thread anyway?

        Damned Deadly, you are so blinded. You remind me of the OS/2 heads that just couldn’t accept that OS/2 was dead.

        I was saddened by it, but I moved on. And to be fair to Microsoft they have greatly improved their desktop product. Windows 7 is a pure joy to work with. It has gotten excellent reviews.

        Whine all you want. It’s just counterproductive and you really are not helping your situation at all. Nobody wants to hear your excuses. Produce, Innovate, Improve, that’s the only way your little Linux hobby will ever be something really important.

        • #3031649

          bobgroz: I’d like to answer

          by jck ·

          In reply to how many copies

          [i] how many copies of windows do home users buy verses linux. [/i]

          How many copies of Windows are bought? Comparatively not a lot. Windows is usually pre-installed, not purchased stand-alone.

          Linux: Even fewer. Home versions of Linux…are free to download and install. No fee required.

          [i]You guys always whine but never do anything about it. I’m tired of your incessant whining. Would you like cheese with that whine?[/i]

          I’m not whining. I’ve just been trying to explain to you why your views are flawed or misconceived.

          [i]Freakin do something about it, Linux. And don’t say it’s impossible . You need to innovate and greatly enhance your quality control standards. YOu need rock solid GUI’s with no command prompt (except hat is needed by tech support).[/i]

          Linux and Apache already took the webserver market from IIS.

          They are now taking what SQL Server has of the RDBMS market away with MySQL and PostgreSQL.

          As for “rock solid”-

          I’ve never had Linux crash because of a driver. EVER.

          Windows: at least once a week.

          [i]People install software and dependencies screw them, they are knocked down by decisions to make something modular or direct in the kernel. They don’t even know what a kernel IS.[/i]

          [i]Yeah, maybe tux racer will install without problems, but the stuff they see in the install buckets they really want won’t go on.[/i]

          Shadowbane runs fine under Wine, Cedega and other emulators, and so does WoW (from what I was told by jmgarvin).

          I’ve never played Tux Racer. Have to check it out lol

          [i]Microsoft didn’t steal anything. Stealing is against the law. I haven’t seen Microsoft sent to jail. They had the vision to see technologies that would be needed and grabbed them. That is due to their vision, not because they stole anything.[/i]

          Actually, that’s not vision. Vision is conceptualizing ideas on your own with little or no help.

          What Microsoft did is considered illegal nowadays, and is called intellectual property theft. Back when MS did it to Mac, IBM, Xerox, etc., patent and intellectual property law was not well developed or defined.

          I know, because I worked with the lawyers at a major corp who did that and who wanted me to go back and study law to pursue it.

          Microsoft innovated what? Recycle Bin? By making it rectangular instead of round and renaming it? lol

          [i]Your argument is crap. It’s whining crap. All you linux heads do it. Believe it or not, Linux has a very small market share into ANY market, but especially into the home desktop market.[/i]

          Linux owns the webserver market. Case closed.

          Linux has a larger DBMS market now than Windows, because more large enterprises run Oracle or DB/2 than SQL server, and more small businesses are starting to run MySQL because…it’s free with Linux.

          [i]I like the ribbon style in the office products, as I’m sure many people do. It makes so many task so much easier.[/i]

          From the users here (over 400), the ones who have tried Office 2010 that we trialed didn’t like it.

          [i]Open office is decent but it’s no Microsoft office. And who wants to relearn a bunch of new software anyway?[/i]

          OpenOffice is basically open source MS Office with different steps and terminology.

          It’s not that much relearning, unless you are an advanced user who does templates and macros and all. And, that’s not your typical home user.

          [i]Why are we talking about Open Office on a Linux vs Windows thread anyway?[/i]

          Because OpenOffice is/was part of Sun Microsystems’ open source initiatives.

          [i]Damned Deadly, you are so blinded. You remind me of the OS/2 heads that just couldn’t accept that OS/2 was dead.[/i]

          OS/2? As in Warp? That was better than 3.1. too bad IBM didn’t know how to market a product. Really sad.

          And so far as I’ve seen, Ernest has been right on the mark.

          [i]I was saddened by it, but I moved on. And to be fair to Microsoft they have greatly improved their desktop product. Windows 7 is a pure joy to work with. It has gotten excellent reviews.[/i]

          Windows 7 is far better than Vista, I give it that.

          But you want to talk about a learning curve…I’ve used forms of Windows since 3.0. Windows 7 is taking a lot of getting used to, from how the task bar now works to where to find certain configuration items.

          [i]Whine all you want. It’s just counterproductive and you really are not helping your situation at all. Nobody wants to hear your excuses. Produce, Innovate, Improve, that’s the only way your little Linux hobby will ever be something really important.[/i]

          Like Ernest said…the *nix world did innovate:

          Transparent windowing
          User-level control of apps execution
          True multitasking
          Semaphores and threading
          True GUIs

          Mac innovated the trashcan style disposing of files.

          Microsoft steals or buys cheap (usually through coercion or leveraging attrition) technology. They don’t believe in playing fair or playing nice. They are cutthroats. Ballmer is the biggest one too.

          MS, if they did anything, brought together things. But, they innovated very little if anything.

          They are like the Borg of technology now. They assimilate what they aren’t prevented from by law, and call it “their innovation”.

        • #3031647

          how many copies of windows do home users buy verses linux

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to how many copies

          Ask that question again when both platforms have equal representation on retail shelves or oem ordering websites. Hiding options away from customers then asking such a question seems a little disingenuous.

      • #3031670

        and by the way

        by bobgroz ·

        In reply to Microsoft Windows, the best set of stolen software you can buy

        The person who accused me of being “nasty”” to Ernest or deadly, follow the thread. He started it by accusing me of being a home user who never installed operating systems and simply bought preinstalled operating systems on computers I bought from the store.

        I’m not going to listen to a lie like that, nor take it. Poor Ernest doesn’t know a thing about me, how can he make an assumption like that?

        It was a rip at me and my technical skills. But that’s they way linux folk are. They love to put down anyone who doesn’t share their views. They see their little hobby getting practically no market share, they see Microsoft growing bigger, and they hate it. So they take it out on anyone who stands up for Microsoft and their products.

        Well this boy isn’t taking anything out on me. I was working on computers long before he knew what the word “boot” meant. I have a degree in computer science and 20 years in the industry. And I have not sat still these last 10 years of illness and disability.

        I’ve never put up a web site, and with 15 minutes of training put up a massive 1000 page website to support people who have been damaged by the medications that did me and my family in.

        All told I’ve been working with computers for going on 40 years.

        Tell me Earnest, does that sound like someone who buys preloaded systems as you stated about me?

        • #3031644

          unrelated – what’s the website?

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to and by the way

          This is actually completely unrelated to the discussion. If I may, what is the harmful medication and related website you setup? Have you considered reporting the experience to the US Institute for Safe Medication Practices?

      • #3031521

        down with microsoft

        by danerd ·

        In reply to Microsoft Windows, the best set of stolen software you can buy

        gee deadly ernest you took the words right out of my mouth, we need more people like you.–cheers–

        • #3031034

          Hey, we still need competitors

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to down with microsoft

          I vote Microsoft can stay. For Nix to truly be great, it must rise to greatness on it’s own.

        • #3031018

          Very true, Sinister, but can we cut back on some of the teeth? – nt

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Hey, we still need competitors

          ..

        • #3031001

          The economical reform to get nix able to bite back would be impressive.

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Very true, Sinister, but can we cut back on some of the teeth? – nt

          Nix doesn’t have billions backing it, so without radical law changes that would make the playing field level between a not for profit company and a multi billion dollar company, seems impossible to win without such grounds.

          I am unsure what that leaves for nix to pull itself to the top.

          Could be an interesting discussion, if not already done.

        • #3030990

          Me, I’d settle for Microsoft doing normal marketing as against

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to The economical reform to get nix able to bite back would be impressive.

          the current predatory style they use to pressure companies like Dell, HP etc into doing what they want.

          What would be interesting is if a couple of the major games developers refuse to make a versions catered to the Microsoft Standards and only write it for the Industry Standards. Watch the Microsoft bleat when people move to Linux in droves because their new great game won’t run on Windows.

        • #3030966

          That would be a welcome sight to see

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Me, I’d settle for Microsoft doing normal marketing as against

          But PC gaming is dying off, so unless this happens soon. Linux may by natural evolution, become the gaming OS if nix keeps support for older games. Because we all know windows wont.

          Edit-
          Wrong sight.

          Edit-
          I got an idea to get game devs to move to Linux. If Linux devs can help solve the biggest problem of the gaming industry. Software piracy. If it can be somehow made impossible to steal computer games. Game developers would flock to Linux because of the healthier and longer lasting sales potential, rather than the current 1 or 2 month sales window they get on Windows before software piracy floods over the rest of the possible sales.

          I think Steam was a good start, games require the Steam files to run, but it’s already been hacked.

    • #3031623

      You need to try Sabayon

      by spitfire_sysop ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      http://sabayonlinux.org/

      I used to think like you. I have a new computer with a GTX285 video card. Sabayon automatically installed the correct drivers for every piece of hardware in my computer including the GPU which Ubuntu failed to do.

      Sabayon also looks better than my Win7 64 PRO. It has built in skinning capabilities that are really fun to customize the look and feel. It also comes with a 3D cube desktop by default. If you have a nice video card you have a 3d desktop far superior to Aero.

      Let’s be honest. I keep my Win7 around because most of the applications I use are Win32 appz with no port. I am not elite enough to make all my windoze programs work in linux.

      My point: Never say never. Sabayon is amazing. If they could get a hacked out Wine installed by default that could support my Win32 binaries, I would never look back. There is still a bright future ahead with Linux. It is slow coming because of the fear and lack of money. Sabayon takes away the fear, now all they need is some money and some more programmers.

      • #3031567

        OOOO….

        by —tk— ·

        In reply to You need to try Sabayon

        A new OS to play with… Although I hesitate on downloading it b/c “the cutest, free Operating System”… LOL… Other than that it actually does look pretty slick.

        3D cube desktop has been around for a while and it will run on a PCI Nvidia 5200FX card, and or a AGP ATI 9550 card… It doesn’t take much to get it going… Its all about the drivers 🙂

        Thanks for the post, looks like a fun OS to tinker with 🙂

    • #3031550

      COMDEX 2000

      by inet32 ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      I attended COMDEX 2000 in Las Vegas and even *then* (9+ years ago) Linux fans were saying that __ANY DAY NOW__ Linux was about to be a big player on the home desktop. All kinds of cool new desktops and user-friendly interfaces were coming out and that would be the year that your doctor and your lawyer and your car mechanic and your Aunt Edna would finally start using Linux on their PC.

      They’ve been saying it ever since, EVERY year! “This is the year desktop Linux will break out of its geek ghetto!”

      It will NEVER happen. Linux is a great server OS, and it’s a great embedded OS, but it will never be user-friendly or non-geeky enough to be a safe choice for a home PC.

      ( Another problem Linux has is that if Aunt Edna screws something up on her Windows PC she probably has 10 relatives who can help her because Windows is ubiquitous. She’s NOT going to go to go to some online linux forum and seek help from teenage nerds with monikers like “snakefoot” and “dances-with-pirates”! In other words, Linux doesn’t have a comfortable support environment for non-geeks. )

      • #3031545

        That’s common

        by neon samurai ·

        In reply to COMDEX 2000

        The irony is that for some “the year of the linux desktop” was long ago and they’ve been computing along freely since. For others, The Year will never come for various reasons. Yet others may find this year, next year or the year after.

        There is unlikely to every be some cutover point where platform use flips like a lightswitch. Those that seriously proclaim such an impending change are usually new and in the honeymoon romance faze (as many win7 users are acceptably with there new platform). Outside of specialty needs (DX gaming, AutoCAD or win-only required applications, security tools or other non-win applications), either platform is perfectly viable.

        “It will NEVER happen”

        Yup, and man will never fly like the birds or travel faster than the horse or avoid falling off the edge of the earth should they sail too far in one direction. Never is a long time.

        • #3030998

          For Bob

          by ajdarwin ·

          In reply to That’s common

          I am sorry that Bob has been damaged by malpractice. Happens far too often in today’s world. But I have my own two cents to add to the discussion.
          I started working with Linux way back in the mid 90’s. I worked with Win95 and later all the other Winflavors. Linux was not for the faint of heart, and Windows, whatever it’s version, was by far the best pick for the masses. That being said, I felt that eventually Linux would grow up and mature to the point that it would become a viable alternative. I was right.
          If we were having this discussion with Bob eight years ago, I would be right there with him, agreeing completely. A lot of things have changed in the last eight to ten years.
          My wife bought a Sony Vaio about four months ago. Vista never worked right. It crashed constantly, hung up, just stopped. It didn’t come with install media, just the onboard image, so I couldn’t really do much. I either reinstalled the mess that gave me the headache to begin with, or I decided to install Linux instead.
          It installed without a hitch. All hardware was supported out of the box. My wife who had never used Linux before, used it without missing a beat. She did comment it was faster, and prettier screen savers. It hasn’t crashed since. The point is, Linux isn’t the fledgling OS it used to be. It works. It isn’t a head ache. It installs software with all dependencies easily. It was free. What can you say to that?

        • #3030997

          One more thing

          by ajdarwin ·

          In reply to For Bob

          Bob, I know you have been at the top of the game in software, programming, etc. No one doubts that. But things change, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. For Linux the change is a lot. I have been an IT professional for some time myself, not at your level, but more where the rubber meets the road for your average user. Most don’t care what is on their computer, as long as it works. Microsoft has made deals with PC manufacturers to be put on virtually every PC produced and sold in this country. They purposely make deals to make it more difficult to use alternate OS with hardware, so they can point out incompatibilities. Not whining, just pointing out that this does not make Windows superior. So we don’t use that hardware, and the manufacturer loses a sale. As more Linux uses make their voices heard, more and more companies will not bend the knee to Microsoft. Gaming companies that create games that will run on windows or Linux will find their bottom line is much healthier. All things grow and evolve. So has Windows, so has and will Linux.

        • #3030989

          AJD, I totally agree with what you say here, and have said

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to For Bob

          the same in some past posts on this issue, which comes up very regularly here in TR.

          I just find it funny that someone says Win 7 is absolutely perfect for the home and say Linux isn’t, when nearly all the changes in Windows from XP to 7 are ones they stole from the Linux / Unix camp. The two biggies being:

          UAC, a poor take off of the Unix / Linux user SUDO sandboxing.

          Aero, a poor take off of the four, or is it now five year old, Glass 3D.

          But what can you expect when Windows was stolen from Apple to begin with.

          In my own case, I still prefered to use Windows right up to 2004 when Microsoft did a forced push out of WGA (Windows Garbage Attack) that I could not refuse and it kept trashing my system by saying the licence was a pirate because I’d changed too much hardware over the years since I bought it when it first came out – not even SP1 on it. And it was legit, I bought direct from Microsoft Australia under the Academic scheme at the time. My problem was due to having too many hard drive and video card upgrades to make the Microsoft database happy it was the same computer. The final straw was when I upgraded the motherboard to a faster CPU – after that, every visit to microsoft.com to get a security update meant a crash as it now declared the system a pirate. Two hours rebuilding the system with all the applications, not including the hour on the phone to Microsoft Australia for a new code. I gave up and went to Linux, and haven’t looked back. Tried Vista and Win 7 when they first came out, even worse than the mess XP became. I’ll stay with SimplyMepis Linux 8, thank you.

    • #3030979

      Linux is not set up to be a competitor

      by j-mart ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      Microsoft as a corporation is set up to compete in the IT / computer industry, with its primary objective, as with all corporate entities, to provide, the shareholder’s with the best possible return on their investment. Over the years, with sharp business practices, and making the most of the opportunities of the market place have delivered, for the shareholders. For us, the customer, the product supplied has only needed to be as good as needed to do the job.

      Linux.not being the standard competitor, such as Apple, Sun, IBM or any other Corporate entity does not fit into the standard mold as a competitor. Home users of various Linux Distros, may at present, consist mainly of the more computer savy, but that is mainly due to the main method of distributing the Linux OS, download and install yourself. I personally find installing Linux easier than the various windows options mainly because for home use I went from win98 to Mandrake 6.5, Mandrake 9.2, and on to Debian, where I am now. Previous to my present employment I was maintaining the computers being used by the small company I was working for, DOS, Win3.11, win95, and win98. I now work for a larger company, with IT supplied by outside contracted firm, with all my experience with win2000, XP only as a user. The machine I use at work, XP 64 bit machine only about 18 months old running Solid Works CAD software and not due for upgrade for a year or two.

      If Linux came pre-installed and configured on appliance store purchased machines, many home users would not have any more difficulties with their machines than they do at present with their windows or mac machines.

      I use Linux because I find it relatively simple to use in the environment I use my home machines for, I can have 100% legal software that will do the jobs I want to use it for, at a cost I can afford, with simple security built into the architecture of the OS, that requires little time and effort to keep running well.

      Bobgroz is entitled to his opinion, and he may have had the experience and knowledge that goes with years of experience with IBM mainframes and a lot more that what I have of IT, but it would be bull to think that Linux desktops will NEVER be up to it for the home user, for many of us it is there now and the only thing keeping it from being a more mainstream option are commercial roadblocks rather than technical.

    • #3030969

      Well it’s been fun.

      by bobgroz ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      It’s been fun, guys, submitting our viewpoints over this issue. I want to apologize to anyone I have offended in this heated debate. Deadly, I’m sorry for anything I may have said about you. Anyone else that goes for too. I don’t want to be mean spirited and proud. This brain injury has made me so dependent on other people, especially my poor 74 year old mother.

      The mental pain I live with daily is so bad, I break down almost daily in crying fits. There is no cure for the damage that was done to me by doctors that I trusted.

      Windows vs. Linux really isn’t a big issue in my life. I still feel that statistics will bear out most people IN THE HOME have windows installed on their computers, because it’s easy to use, supports a zillion apps, and really does not break down as much as some have stated here. I used to work in a fortune 500 company where we had windows 2000 installed on all the user machines. It was a great operating system, and I used it for many years at work, using telnet 3270 to access the mainframe. I wrote many problem reports, created many spread sheets, troubleshooted many mainframe problems using VNC, and did many other tasks I can’t even remember.

      I was not in PC tech, as I said I am a mainframe systems programer (or WAS until I took a quinolone antibiotic with an NSAID for six weeks), but I well known there and talked with the PC techs often. Most of their work was new windows installs as our company continued to grow.

      It’s funny, but probably the best SERVER operating system we used was OS/2, it supported both ethernet and token ring for those who remember those days.

      Anyway, I’m not a Linux hater. As I have said, I need Linux to compile hercules to run my OS/390 virtual machine. It really is awesome to see an operating system capable of supporting an infinite number of users, printers, DASD (disk drives), terminals, etc. run on my AMD FX-57 processor running Linux. Sometimes when I see the good old MVS screens, working with ISPF and looking over some of the code I had written over 20 years, it brings tears to my eyes.

      It’s hard to lose everything you loved because of a medical error. I battle with suicide daily. Every day.

      I really am sorry if I offended anybody here and you all have my fullest apologies. There is an anger deep inside of me for what my government (the FDA, the legislators, the drug companies, and the ignorant doctors) have done to me and worse to my FAMILY.

      I miss my wife of 12 years who walked out on me in 2004-2005 because of the great pressures associated with my illness.

      I miss helping my mother around the house.

      I miss spending time with my dearest daughter, Faith, it was fun crawling on the carpet with her as a baby. Those are the last healthy memories I have of her. I’ve been sick ever since and now she’s 14.

      Windows vs. Linux, who really cares in the scheme of things. Life can take a twist in a DAY, believe me. One day you have your health, a good job, a loving family. You enjoy taking long walks after sitting all day at work in the warm sunshine.

      I remember the birthday parties we had for my daughter as she grew up. I taped every one of them as well as many other things we did as a family. Going to amusement parks, the zoo, just walking in the park. Taking my daughter to the mall and playing those quarter games with her, getting her an ice creme cone and balloons.

      That’s really what I enjoyed the most. Computers were never number 1, although I must admit I loved working with them and playing with all the different operating systems out there. That was my game, operating systems.

      You know, they really are all the same at the very basic level. Virtual storage concepts, booting (or IPLing in the case of a mainframe), dump reading, programming languages, scripting, reading logs, emergency disks (or in the case of a mainframe a stand alone dump). I really think all the concepts came out of IBM’s early work beginning in the 40’s and 50’s with their big iron, punch cards, and printers. In those days there were no terminals.

      Yes, they all really work on the same principles.

      Well, this is my last post. Hang on to what is really important in your lives. Don’t get lost living only for a bunch of circuits and transistors that can never love you.

      Goodbye everyone, and again I’m sorry for letting my anger out on any of you who I don’t even know.

      God bless….

      Bob

      • #3030964

        What exactly did the brain damage do?

        by slayer_ ·

        In reply to Well it’s been fun.

        I am curious what exactly are your symptoms. I once heard that such brain damage felt like being hung over from drinking 24/7. Is this true?

        Based on your posts, you appear to be mostly still “there”. So I do not understand what exactly is causing you to be FUBAR’d so bad.

        Perhaps you could still give yourself a future, maybe not what you had before, but I don’t see (based on what I have observed so far) why you couldn’t develop new skills and go back to work.
        Most computer support techs for example, need nothing more than a mouth, ear, eye, and a finger to do their job effectively. And it sounds like you have all of those things.

        I don’t wish to give tragedy comparisons, because I am sure you already know there are people out there with even less than you have and still managed to etch out a productive life for themselves. So please, just think about what you still have left, and what you can do with it.

        • #3030916

          Dear Sinister

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to What exactly did the brain damage do?

          The damage I have is to two important neurons that are found throughout the body (but are especially “felt” in the brain and to my DNA.

          One neuron – the NMDA receptor – fires the electric signal to the other neuron called a GABA receptor which inhibits the fired electric signal.

          Think of it as a pitcher (NMDA) and a catcher (GABA).

          This is a simple analogy, there are free radicals involved, apt production in the mydocondria of the brain, oxidative stress – all these factors are involved. But the simple explanation really explains it well.

          The quinolone antibiotic chemically altered both of these receptors. The NMDA receptors are always “ON” firing electric impulses in my brain (and throughout my gut where they heavily reside as well). Unlike I was before the brain damage, the don’t shut “off” as frequently or as normally as they should.

          On the other side, the quinolone altered the GABA receptor. It has lost it’s ability to inhibit the signals that are constantly being fired at it.

          The result:

          Two seizure disorders, a brain encepholopathy, and organic brain syndrome.

          The damage is not structural (i.e. I smashed my head on the medial barrier on the road flying off a motorcycle), but CHEMICAL. Structural brain damages are much easier to treat and contain, whereas CHEMICAL brain damages are impossible to treat. The technology is not there.

          There is no treatment for a chemical brain injury of the magnitude that I have (and has showed up in tests).

          The result:

          Severe anxiety – almost at the panic level. I feel like I drank 1,000 cups of coffee. Someone said who was injured like me, it’s worse than 1000 bad LSD trips and 10,000 heroine withdrawals.

          Severe depression – from the brain damage itself, but also from losing friendships, the ability to take care of myself, the loss of a wife, and just plain living without pain. I go to doctors 4-5 times each week. My medical bills are always so high I can claim them as a deduction on income tax.

          Severe Tinnitus, or better known as EAR RINGING. Piercing, screeching, popping sounds in both ears constantly. Many people have committed suicide just with severe tinnitus. It’ maddening. William Shatner, when he played captain Kurk had some brain damage when they were filming an episode of star trek back in the 60’s. There were some fake explosions in the scene but they were loud.

          Shatner had fought with suicide for years. He still suffers form it, but has learned to cope with it.

          If it were just the tinnitus, I think I could cope, but it would be hard. Shatner needed professional neurofeedback skills taught to him by medical professionals.

          Severe pain in the gut – NMDA and GABA are all over the gut. In fact the gut is called the “second brain”. You can google that term and find out that it is true. Cramps, severe constipation, bloating, – all the time.

          Seizures – not long lasting seizures, but painful petite mal seizures attack me all day long. I just put my head in my hands and cry.

          Insomnia – One of the WORST symptoms. You can never “get away” from this. It attacks you all day and then at night in your bed. Vivid nightmares, higher seizure activity that continues to “wake” me out of any sleep I may get. I average 2-3 hours of broken sleep per night.

          with that little sleep I feel I am falling apart all day. I begin to depersonalize (feel like I’m living in a dream).

          Again, there is NO CURE for this. All I get from all the doctors I see are medications that help relieve the symptoms (but the relief is just enough to hang on). If that medication were taken away, I would be in the morgue. At full intensity nobody could live with these symptoms for much more than a week. The mental anguish is just too great.

          I have a video online my family shot of me 5 months after being hit. Be forewarned it is a very hard video to watch,and many have not been able to complete seeing it.

          It’s on youtube.

          Just search “bobgroz” (no quotes) and my videos will be up there. I have videos of some other friends who have been damaged by quinolones as well. .

          My video is called “Prescription Drug Reaction to Cipro and Vioxx”.

          Also another victims spent over 60,000 bucks to make a documentary about quinolone antibiotics and she graciously allowed me to put it up on youtube.

          Search “Certain Adverse Events”. It’s 6 parts. Some nice person made a playlist out of it, so when you do the search click on the playlist link and you can watch the whole thing without having to click on part2, part3, etc.

          Finally, the DNA damage has caused my body to keep producing these rogue NMDA and GABA receptors. The DNA is the blueprint for all the cells that are created in the body. When certain aspects of that blueprint are damaged, it is impossible to fix.

          There are days, I swear, that all I do is cry and scream while my mother hears it she begins to cry because she loves me so much and hates to see me in this intense mental anguish.

          There is never any rest. I have not watched television in 8 years. I can’t sit still long enough to even concentrate on a program. I’m always fighting mental pain. It’s EXHAUSTING.

          I could never get up every day and go to a job, and work 8 hours, it’s impossible. Even part time would be impossible. What if I had a meltdown on the job?

          Social Security doesn’t pay out disability for 8 years and provide me and my daughter with medical benefits for nothing. You have to PROVE you are severely disabled.

          They have never questioned anything that has been sent to them by us (test results, doctor notes, etc.)

          When I as first hit, I was in bed for two years, shaking and writhing, screaming and crying. Too sick to even pursue a law suit I had against bayer. Even my mom had no time to seriously do all the work the lawyers required of us because she had to take care of me.

          It continues on. 8 years this May. But with the help and hope I have in Jesus Christ, I continue to hang on – one day at a time.

          I hope I have described this well enough. It’s hard, really watch “Certain Adverse Events” if you want to get a good idea what quinolone toxicity is all about.

          And one thing to finalize this to all of you that are reading this thread: NEVER,NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, ALLOW A DOCTOR TO TREAT ANY INFECTION WITH A QUINOLONE ANTIBIOTIC.

          Remember “Q”. If you have a sinus infection, a UTI, any infection, ask the doctor if the antibiotic you are getting is in a class of antibiotics that start with the letter “Q”. If he says, yes this is a quinolone, tell him you are allergic to it and ask for an older, safer antibiotic.

          Quinolones are actually chemotheraputic agents, not antibiotics. They are used to treat cancer. There is no need to take a powerful drug like a quinolone for an infection. Some people take them once or twice and have not problems, but they don’t leave the body for years. So each subsequent time they are taken they build up more and more in the body.

          EVERYONE eventually will have an adverse event to these drugs eventually. Prior to my severe chemical brain damage I had taken them twice before without problems. The one time I did have ear ringing, but it cleared up. Too bad I didn’t know that was a warning from my body that I was near a toxic reaction to quinolones.

          Thank you for taking the time to read all this. I have to go for now, starting to feel really anxious…..

          God bless you all,
          Bob

        • #3030910

          Well you did write that whole reply

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Dear Sinister

          And it makes sense and carries out thoughts properly, which puts you mentally stronger than I.

          I think you could probably do idle work from home, if even to just keep your mind busy and not thinking about how much you have lost and how much everything hurts.
          If you have any programming skills, that would be a great place to, I think, start.

          Perhaps you could make Nix a better operating system. You already know what you want to change, and it sounds like you have a good idea how to change it.
          Or making simple programs and utilities.

          You kind of sound like a collection of many different disorders. you do remind me of an old friend, he’s dead now, broken rib pierced his heart. He had that birth defect, where you bones never harden. When I met him, he was 20 years old, and the size of a baby. His left arm bone was actually crossed in the middle and backwards, his right arm functioned… barely enough for him to use his joystick to move his chair. His legs… were not attached to his hips, but he could still move his feet.
          We used to play computer games together at lunch time in high school. He had a hard time communicating what he was thinking. Often his mouth just wouldn’t say the words his tongue tried to say. But, he was a really smart guy. After he graduated, I only saw him one more time in college. I wish I had more time to talk with him (was during a class, he had already graduated college at this point, and was just talking to his old instructor) because the next time I heard about him, was from his obituary…
          http://eo-eo.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&viewas=0&gid=25689322696

          Your mind may not be working right anymore, but it IS still working, if only barely, and it still has a lot of potential. Please don’t waste it.

        • #3030891

          Thank you, Sinister

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Well you did write that whole reply

          I wrote a lengthy response to you but when I typed submit this board “exploded” in my face with error messages and I lost the whole post. I should have copied it to the clipboard before submitting it. I will be brief.

          1) I still keep my MVS skills up to date in the event I ever do get any better. I am on 3 times a week glutathione treatments (glutathione is the bodies master antioxidant) but it takes months to years to see if it will work. I spend time IPLing (booting) the system, writing programs on it, forcing dumps to read, modifying parameters, etc. If I ever am well enough to get out of the house I will look at starting my disaster recovery business again.

          By law all large financial institutions must perform disaster recoveries 3-4 times per year. I went to many of them. 1/3 of the time at a DR site is mainframe set up. I can shave 5-10 hours off a DR by having the setup in place on an x86 box running hercules. The PC would be placed in the DR vault with all the data. The cost savings per test would average around $500,000 per test at 3-4 tests per year. We had Prudential, Met Life, New York Life, Chemical Bank interested in our procedure.

          It as at that time I was damaged by the drugs.

          So I spend time keeping my MVS skills up to date in the event the glutathione is helpful.

          Programming is a bit too much for me now. I was always anal about my programs (wanted them to be perfect) and I just can’t concentrate to put a program together. I do write small scripts and programs on my MVS system, but other than that it’s really too hard to write serious programs.

          I also spend a lot of time with newbie victims on my toll free line On average I take 5 calls week (new) plus I get second, third and fourth calls from prior callers. Each call can last 2 hours. I share all I have learned about this syndrome and point them to sources of help that I have learned about.

          I also spend time with my daughter every night. We do Bible studies together.

          Honestly, just living daily with this pain and staying alive sometimes is the best I can do for a day. I have some REALLY bad days.

          Thank you for sharing your story about your friend. There is no shortage of suffering in this world. Gulf war syndrome is mostly a reaction to quinolone antibiotics that are injected in our servicemen to prevent malaria and anthrax exposure.

          There are much safer alternatives, but the politicians have their hand out and get much money from the drug companies to make their policy decisions.

          God will repay them someday.

          Thank you again,Sinister, for your post. I only wished the longer one had not been lost when I pressed “submit post”.

          God bless you,

          Bob

        • #3030888

          Listening

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to Thank you, Sinister

          Learning too much to add anything of merit.

        • #3030816

          TR is bad for that

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Thank you, Sinister

          I always keep in the habit now of copying my post text before submitting. I’ve had so many forums drop my posts.

        • #3030802

          yup.. today’s not been a good day either

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to TR is bad for that

          I’ve seen more than a few server errors come back today. The cluster must be due for a reboot or something.

      • #3030959

        US Institute for Safe Medication Practices

        by neon samurai ·

        In reply to Well it’s been fun.

        Bobgroz, You mentioned injury due to medication and a resulting website you setup for other’s. I would strongly encourage you to contact ISMP US if you have not spoken to them in the past. They are a non-profit organization that collect and analyze reports of medication harm and how to prevent it happening in the future.

        http://www.ismp.org/

        The reason I’ve asked in two other posts is because I have a few friends working for ISMP Canada who I would have passed your website on to.

        My choice of OS platform doesn’t affect anyone else but your reporting physical harm to either of the two mentioned organizations may bring to light a new issue wth the specific medication or add to the existing reports so that other’s don’t experience it also.

        (I would have send a private message if able)

        • #3030885

          Thanks Neon

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to US Institute for Safe Medication Practices

          Neon, I would love if you would pass my website to these people. I will seriously look into this. I want the word out on these harmful drugs. We (the victims) want them taken OFF the market. I shouldn’t do this, but my email is if you want to contact me personally.

          What the heck, I’ll break a rule and give my email address publicly just to get a chance to get more exposure and prevent other people from having to go through this…..

          Thank you, and God bless you,

          Bob

        • #3030833

          thank you Bob, please edit your post

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to Thanks Neon

          Bob, I’ll pass your email on to one of my friends today. Since I have the address, I’d encourage you to edit your comment to remove the email address.

        • #3030807

          thanks Neon

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Thanks Neon

          I did edit the post and remove the email. Good thinking. I would have never thought of it. Thank you.

          Actually that was my secondary email but I still check it.

          Thanks again and may God bless you,

          Bob

        • #3030803

          Cheers, I’ve also passed your email on

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to thanks Neon

          I’ve passed your email on to a friend working with the Canadian organization though your location would make the US organization more applicable. Hopefully he contacts you. He said he’d look into it and see if it looks accident related or an adverse reaction.

          Since your website is public already, you could post it’s URL if you liked.

        • #2819096

          The URL for my website is

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Cheers, I’ve also passed your email on

          http://www.fqvictims.org

          I hope this helps.

          Thank you, and God bless you…

          Bob

        • #2819067

          They found the twitter feed also. passing the URL on now

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to The URL for my website is

          It does depend on if it was an error in administering the drug or an adverse reaction too it. As your in Pensilvania, it may be ISMP US area of coverage (ismp.org) however the Canadian .org are looking at it. I send your website on to them also.

          I can’t promise an outcome either way but I can promise to pass what information I get back and forth.

        • #2818783

          God bless you Neon

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to The URL for my website is

          I’m having a particularly rough day. I just wanted to thank you for helping me out. I feel sooooo bad. 8 years of this…UGHH. It is a product defect, Neon. Over half the drugs in the quinolone class have been recalled for life threatening conditions. Synthetic quinine is evil. Plus they add a fluoride
          atom to make it penetrate deeply into all your tissues. Quinolones as a class need to be removed from the market. I don’t see it happening, though as they are billion dollar drugs.

          The drug companies don’t care about human suffering, they care about profits. I got a call on my hotline recently from a man who was a chiropractor.

          He had to sell his whole business (of over 20 years) just to have money to survive. He cannot work, and is totally disabled. I know a lot about these drugs and have a terabyte of studies, stories, video, etc.

          Gulf war syndrome is nothing more than a reaction to quinolones and some other drugs they shoot our service men with. I was going to do a site gulfwarillness.org (I own the domain), but just don’t have the strength to do anymore.

          I may start a blog. You have to understand anything I do is in super slow motion. My website is the culmination of 15 minute working streaks over a 3 – 4 year period.

          Add to that I never did a website before. When I got hit there was nobody to turn to. I provide toll free assistance to any newbie and share the latest tests and treatment options with them that I have learned.

          Two of my doctors said I know much more than them about quinolone toxicity. Isn’t that sickening? I mean in our jobs we had to stay up to date with constant change.

          Doctors, graduate from medical school, and that’s the only training they get, except what the drug reps tell them.

          And do you think those drug reps that look all nice and pretty are going to tell the whole truth about the drugs they peddle??

          So doctors just stubbornly and arrogantly (for the most part) even deny this syndrome exists, even though there are thousands of published studies to the contrary.

          I’ve tried to get this on 69 minutes 20/20, Larry King, Op rah, Anderson Cooper, etc. but the drug companies have bought and paid for the media. Those drug ads are not there to sell you or me a drug. They are there to PAY THE MEDIA so they won’t do stories on the TRUTH.

          Big Pharma has paid off the media, the FDA, the legislators, the doctors (they go to “conferences” in exotic places all on Big Pharma’s tab), the medical journals.

          I’ve learned that this country is not a democracy, but a country by the rich for the rich. The 6 figures I earned is not considered rich. They know there are people like me suffering all over this country (there is a whole segment of society suffering because of quinolone antibiotics).

          They have their drugs on most of the hospital formularies to fight staff infection. You don’t need a quinolone to fight staff, there are plenty of safer, older antibiotics that will do it.

          I had a call from a man called Tom in california. He went in for routine knee surgery. Whilst under during the surgery, when he was knocked out, they infused him with three bags of Levaquin (a particularly evil quinolone), without his knowledge.

          He woke up a mental basket case. That was over 4 years ago and the man is still suffering. He USED to work for homeland security, now he’s fighting for his life. I just wonder how much his wife can take.

          It really hurts when your wife walks out on you because she can no longer deal with the poisoning. That was a very painful time in my life. I still hurt from that experience, and so does my 14 year old. My daughter will never have a brother or sister because of these drugs.

          At the time I was hit he were trying for another baby. We lost one (miscarriage) and were trying again. It’s never going to happen now.

          This is very personal, but I’m impotent because of quinolones. I have not been intimate with a woman for many, many years.

          I could go on and on and on about how adversely this has affected my life and the lives of so many others.

          Watch “certain adverse events” on youtube. It’s an excellent documentary produced by a quinolone victim. There is a story in there about an airline pilot that had a reaction in the cockpit of a plane with hundreds of people on board. He began to lose his vision and his mind.

          Thankfully, he was able to land that plane, but that’s the last flight he’s flown for years.

          I could tell stories that would make people’s blood boil, but it is so hard to keep up with the website, and advocacy efforts.

          I have a good friend who WAS a drug rep, that got hit very hard, – he’s a good man, and he is fighting like crazy against his former profession. God bless him.

          I fought for years, but I’m getting sicker and sicker and the best I can do now is take phone calls from new victims and try to help them.

          If you search my name “Bob Grozier” you will find many hits involved with these drugs.

          I know about privacy and all, but when your this sick and know you are close to death it hardly matters if people know who I am. Plenty of people I’ve never met know who I am.

          God bless you, Neon for caring and trying to help. You are a good man and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

          Again, God bless you,

          Bob

      • #3030900

        Edited…

        by boxfiddler ·

        In reply to Well it’s been fun.

        Dear Bob,
        Please don’t leave us. We need you.

        • #3030889

          thank you boxfiddler

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Edited…

          I see this post was edited, I only wish I could have read what you fully posted. You are very kind, in what they did leave up. With God’s strength through Jesus Christ, I pray I can hang on – especially to be here for my 14 year old.

          God bless you, my friend for your compassion and kindness.

          There are millions like me over the world, destroyed by quinolones, I am not alone. I talk every day with another victim who has lost family, job, mind and body.

          God bless you,

          Bob

        • #3030886

          I edited it Bob.

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to thank you boxfiddler

          I was overly verbal. There is much more in what remains than there was in my original.

          You dare me, sir. I need daring.

    • #3030830

      Every home wireless router / ADSL / Cable Router

      by the ‘g-man.’ ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      no doubt runs Linux.

      • #3030817

        That explains it….

        by slayer_ ·

        In reply to Every home wireless router / ADSL / Cable Router

        Why I have, so far, gone through 6 home grade routers. My current one cannot handle large numbers of connections and frequently requires restarts to get it to work again. Once in awhile won’t let wireless clients access the net, but they can access the router controls.

        Linux on routers is probably the worst case Linux ever.

        • #3030801

          Stop using torrents then

          by the ‘g-man.’ ·

          In reply to That explains it….

          !

        • #3030798

          Even if I don’t!

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Stop using torrents then

          Two weeks ago I couldn’t play any online games because it wouldn’t hold a connection, and yet I could download all the files I want, no corruption (HTTP downloads).

          Yesterday, I had 20 torrents going, two VMs and every machine copying to each other, and I could game just fine. Tomorrow, who knows, might have to restart it 30 times to make it work again.

        • #3030773

          is there QoS funk going on?

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to Even if I don’t!

          QoS settings may account for throttling of different transfer types potentially. It is odd that the router’s throughput is so unstable otherwise.

        • #3030753

          My Belkin has that option

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to is there QoS funk going on?

          Might be turned on right now for Wireless, I am unsure, I can turn it off.

        • #3030745

          Wireless may also be having issues

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to My Belkin has that option

          You may also be having some interference issues with the wireless connections. I’m not sure what your environment is like though so it’s a blind suggestion of another possibility. I’m thinking the hardware being overwhelmed is closer to the cause though.

        • #3030800

          what router?

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to That explains it….

          I’ve seen Linksys factory firmware and ddWRT run very well on the hardware. The new ddWRT version released this January seems to improve performance further.

          What router brand and model do you keep getting stung by?

        • #3030799

          So far, all of tem

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to what router?

          From one that just had a picture of a pine tree, to a linksys, to a belkin, to an SMC, they have all been terrible.

          I actually tried swapping my current Belkin with a DLink I have laying around, same problem, couldn’t connect properly to any game servers. (Except DDO for some reason).
          Yesterday, it was working fine. Usually any session of torrents wrecks it, the last two weeks its been working perfect, and now, even with torrents that I have been running for last 3 days.

          I just don’t get it, all these routers are just POS.

          Edit-
          Just tried my older SMC, games and P2P worked fine, but HTTP stopped working, even webserver reported connection errors on that router.

        • #3030777

          Another option

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to So far, all of tem

          Replace router with an old PC with two network cards, get a network hub, load up computer with Linux. It is a simple matter to set up IP tables to be hardware firewall / router. You can download the Linux ” Howto IP Tables ” to get simple set up required ( all you need to do is edit example file in publication to get it working). I have been using an old P2 machine rescued from a pile old rubbish to perform this task for about 3 years or so.

          This setup has proved to be extremely reliable, but this also could be due to the ISP I use having fairly new and modern infrastructure.

        • #3030766

          Monowall, Untangle, ClearOS

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to Another option

          There are many more but those would probably be my first to look at in a VM.

          http://distrowatch.com/search.php?category=Firewall&origin=All&basedon=All&desktop=All&architecture=All&status=Active

          A minimal Linux distro install and iptables can do it also a less DIY approach may be preferable.

        • #3030752

          Nothing wrong with DIY

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Monowall, Untangle, ClearOS

          As it gives a mechanically very reliable set up. All it is doing is basically the same as the purchased router, but with mechanically more robust equipment. The router, a small plastic case, with plug pack type power supply, definitely when working hard won’t be that good at dispersing heat which could be a contributer to reliability, my old P2, built like a brick Sh*t house sits quietly in the corner, with its under-worked hardware not placed under any load doing the same task, hardware wise practically bulletproof.

          A couple of hours work to set up, then 3 years no problems, much more efficient than pissing around with routers all the time. The P2 was at no cost, good solid hub purchased for about $15.00 from a tech recycling shop, a cost effective solution, any Linux will do. When downloading from good servers I get speeds at what my ISP specifies consistently. I have never had any failures with this setup. To purchase an industrial strength router set up to give me the same reliability would be a lot more expensive.

        • #3030751

          How do you set up such a system to have same features as router

          by slayer_ ·

          In reply to Monowall, Untangle, ClearOS

          Port forwarding, firewalls, ignore ping, virtual servers, DMZ, etc.

        • #3030746

          J, yes, Sin, use a distribution

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to Monowall, Untangle, ClearOS

          J-mart,

          True there is nothing wrong with a DIY router and I’d probably go the same rout of doing my own minimal Debian double NIC box. It’s still worth doing a run through a three or four router/firewall distro short list to see what they offer though.

          This would be like using ddWRT distribution which provides a very nice GUI browser interface versus OpenWRT which is freakishly powerful but cli managed.

          Either way is fine based on the admin’s preference provided the outcome is the same.

          Personally, I’m pretty good and I’d do a good DIY raw router box myself but I’m pretty sure the guys behind Monowall have more networking experience and the BSD base can’t be denied.

          Sinister,

          Any distribution can be built into a box providing the same functions as an off the shelf router. Much of it is within iptables which provides the real firewall and routing functions. Heck, you could replicate Windows Internet Connection Sharing type setups where your workstation is the router or NAT for the machines behind it. It’s all in the iptables (or BSD equivalent).

          My recommendation would be to play with a few of the router/firewall specific distributions though. ClarkConnect (I was trying to remember the name of it) seems to be the popular name asside from Monowall these days. TR covered it a while back:

          http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/wireless/?p=126&tag=content;leftCol

          As always, grab the disks and your trusty VM software of choice unless you have spare hardware available to muck with.

          (edit) corrected a name. Sorry bout that brainfart of mine Jmart.

        • #3030744

          Sinister

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Monowall, Untangle, ClearOS

          A good place to start is to download the Linux “Howto IPTables” It is fairly easy to follow with a comprehensive example config file that is easily customized to meet individual requirements. As most routers seem to use a Linux derived OS all, of the features needed are able to be set up without too much difficulty. The Howto document also runs through the steps to start up the IPtables at boot. I have a few Linux books that have the information required to set this up, but I found going through the HowTo so straight forward and editing their config file a fast way of getting it up and running.

          You need two network cards in the gateway machine, one connects to outside world, the other to the internal lan. The IPtables program enables them to connect. you get to set all the rules, these can be relatively simple, but with complete control over all packets going between internal and external networks. The box does not need to be much, I like P2 machines as they cost nothing and most distros from Red Hat 7 to Debian 5 will easily install and run, though P3, and AMD socket 462 machines are basically worthless these days as well.

        • #3030741

          good times….

          by —tk— ·

          In reply to Another option

          lol, but during the set up you might want to pull your hair out… I am a fan of Ubuntu so here is a good link that will show the complete how to… (old pc into a tank of a router)
          http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=926001

        • #3030769

          that’s just wierd that so many would present issues

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to So far, all of tem

          The only anomaly I’ve had with a wrt54gs/gl and wrt350n have been a dropped config randomly about once every six months. Frustrating but fixed in under five minutes by uploading the settings backup file.

          As mentioned above, any chance that QoS is doing bad things to your traffic? I tend to disable it and run neutral for my needs.

          As it’s flakey with several different routers using different vendor provided firmware, it could be a hardware issue. You could litterally be pushing the little consumer boxes too hard. They haven’t a lot of memory and processor. You may actually be in need of going to the middle class; dedicated computer with two NIC. There are a few very good router/firewall distributions that would turn an old machine into a beast of a router for you. (This is the middle because the third step up would be business boxes in the thousands of dollars range; eg. Cisco gatway router)

          I can’t account for factory delivered firmware as I find it tends to be very limiting. Have you tried ddWRT on one of your spare routers? It should be easy enough to “update” the firmware back and forth from it to the factory default.

          Sidenote: with ddWRT you’ll need to probably download a “mini” firmware image plus the generic-voip, generic-vnc or standard generic (gaming?). You install the mini first and then you can update generic firmware images over top of it for the current version then as newer versions come out. I believe this is due to memory limitations.

    • #2815921

      It depends on the wants of the user

      by sfogel ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      I can agree that most companies wont highly market a pc that comes with linux for the home user. Lets face it most home users dont want to learn they just want it to work. But i think those of us who want to run linux at home have the knowledge and willingness to run it. I run a big mixture of different OSes at home, they include Freebsd, NetBSD, Ubuntu, OpenSolaris(just recently), and windows 7. I just like having the choice. And also i just bought a new laptop, a compaq that has a newer ATI radeon HD 4200 graphics card in it and it loaded fine out of the box with any linux distro i have tried so far with a dual boot. It just depends on the mentality of the user. You can argue whatever yoiu want about whether it will be mainstream home user or not, but i have been using linux since RH 4.2 and from what i have seen, the improvements and the general awareness of linux have much more than tripled in this time. Hell i even go into convenience stores now and see the clerks with Ubuntu and other flavors on their laptops. It might not take over for windows but its starting to make a big dent.

      • #2815906

        Most companies don’t market a Linux PC simply because they

        by deadly ernest ·

        In reply to It depends on the wants of the user

        only carry pre-built stuff and the companies that do that have agreements with Microsoft to put Windows on the systems they sell to the retail stores, and they make more money by upping the cost of the system by more than what they pay Microsoft for Windows – something they can’t reasonably do with Linux, as it’s free.

        But, as more and more people are walking into shops and turnign around to walk out without buying because they can’t get a non Windows 7 system, we should see some reaction at the retail shop level – but it will take a long time.

        • #2816795

          been taking a long time

          by sfogel ·

          In reply to Most companies don’t market a Linux PC simply because they

          I was sure that linux would make good progress after the big fail of vista, however i guess more marketing or whatever put MAC out there a little more. There have been alot of improvements for linux as a desktop OS but it is still more for the technically advanced so to speak. Hopefully the want of a choice will bring more linux users. Too many people just seem scared to try something new, i think that is the biggest hurdle.

        • #2816791

          The problem is the lack of knowledge and the market methods

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to been taking a long time

          the vast majority of people who buy and use computers at home know little more than how to turn them on; they want to go into a department store, see something they like, take it home and just use it – the same way the buy a television or a microwave.

          About 99.9% of system sold in the retail market place have Windows on them, simply because they’re made in bulk by companies like Dell, HO, etc who have an agreement with Windows to put Windows on all the stuff they ship to retail stores. So the chances of the average user seeing a system with Linux on it is lower than their chances of winning $2.00 or more in the lottery or lotto. Until we get a major maker of retail systems putting good systems with Linux in the retails stores, we aren’t going to see much change in the retail market – and that’s exactly why Microsoft engage in the predatory marketing practices that they do. Apple Mac get their share simply because they do they marketing and get out at the dumb user retail level.

          The few retail systems available with Linux on them are from Mom and Pop type shops, made to order by people who’ve heard of Linux and want it, or the few models that Dell have available on their web site, and only via their web site. They’re under powered in comparison to the Windows systems Dell match them against, and they’re damned hard to find on the web site too. A basic quick search doesn’t even show them, you have to go digging.

          What we are begining to see, is a wider spread of interest in what’s available since so many home users are having issues with Vista and Win 7 – mostly around the issue of their existing applications NOT working on the new Windows. And that’s upsetting them and making them look around.

        • #2816783

          Ernest

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to The problem is the lack of knowledge and the market methods

          1) Just what the hell, exactly, is a “vast” majority?

          2) Is this a phrase you just now invented, then went on to hang the vast majority of your post from it?

          3) Is it twilight where you are, and you are just in a hurry?

        • #2816765

          Santee, in general usage terms, a majority is anything of

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Ernest

          50.05% or higher, and a vast majority is usually accepted as anything that’s 85.01% or higher, while a great majority is usually accepted as 70.05 % or higher.
          So far there is no generally accepted level for overwhelming majority, which many people use to mean over 90.01% or higher.

        • #2816764

          0.01 and 0.05

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to Santee, in general usage terms, a majority is anything of

          These are official?

        • #2816653

          Santee: 50.05

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Santee, in general usage terms, a majority is anything of

          As a scientist, I quite often calculated things down to the nano- and pico- size and levels of accuracy way, way beyond 50.05% but my father, who was an engineering fitter, worked to infinitely greater accuracies of “spot-on”, usually achieved with a file and a hammer.

          Neil 🙂

          Overwhelming majority is whatever side that I am on.

      • #2816794

        please name your sources

        by bobgroz ·

        In reply to It depends on the wants of the user

        1) “general awareness of linux have much more than tripled”

        Please post where I can read that as a fact. Any tech journal or magazine will do

        2) Linux is starting to make a big dent into windows home market

        Again, please post your source for this statement.

        Just facts, not opinions, OK? You know the old sayings about opinions they are like ***holes, everybody has one.

        • #2816785

          Asking for sources?

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to please name your sources

          Isn’t that more than slightly disingenuous? Given this entire thread is based on your posted opinion, with no facts in evidence…

        • #2816647

          A hit, a very palpable hit

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Asking for sources?

          Good old Will. A quote for every eventuality.

          🙂

        • #2816642

          now Nick

          by jck ·

          In reply to Asking for sources?

          You should know by now that most folks come in and spew opinion, then want cold, hard, irrefutable facts to change their minds.

          It’s usually how most people (especially Americans) are: “My opinion is better than yours!”

          Just laugh and move on. One day, bobgroz will learn to see trends, correlations, etc., and see the bigger picture outside of his blinders.

        • #2816648

          Bad analogy

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to please name your sources

          Ernest, being Australian, doesn’t have an ***hole but DOES have an ****hole.

        • #2816643

          lol

          by jck ·

          In reply to Bad analogy

          Cheers! :^0

        • #2816644

          Answers for bobgroz

          by jck ·

          In reply to please name your sources

          [i]1) “general awareness of linux have much more than tripled”

          Please post where I can read that as a fact. Any tech journal or magazine will do[/i]

          Google it. The fact that the percentage of home PCs that are Linux-based is up over the past 10 years is proof that people are more aware of Linux as an alternative. If not, Linux sales would never have increased.

          Also, go to Dell’s website and look up their Ubuntu install options. Then, go to the Internet Archive site and look at Dell’s website about 10 years ago. You won’t see a mention on a notebook or PC for a Linux option. This means retailers have also begun to have awareness of a desire for Linux on the home PC.

          [i]2) Linux is starting to make a big dent into windows home market

          Again, please post your source for this statement.[/i]

          Depends on what you think a “big dent” would qualify as. If you think it’s some large percentage of ownership, you’d be in for a big surprise. 1% of Microsoft’s PC OS sales market is equivalent worldwide to about $150M in revenue per year.

          However, here is an article from 2008 talking about the sales of Linux-based computer selling out at Wal-Mart because of the disappointment that Vista had been.

          http://www.informationweek.com/news/personal_tech/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=205604334

          And here’s one from a few months later showing Linux OS adoption both from the perspective of sales (61%) and internet data mining (41%) of the increased installations/usage of Linux on the PC.

          http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-9910263-16.html

          Linux might not have a significant portion of Microsoft’s home PC user market yet.

          But, 10 years ago Linux didn’t own the web server market either. Now, Linux and Apache own that sector.

          So, don’t you think it’s possible the home market is next? Or the office?

          After all. We’re exploring alternatives where I work right now. Over 300 end-users are going to be off of MS Office within 12-24 months, and we are considering doing the same with Windows because of added savings in going to Linux.

          It’s not so far-fetched as you might think, bobgroz. Sure Windows has the upperhand now, but in 15 more years (that’s about how much before Linux came around that MS started) and see where things stand.

          I think you’ll be surprised.

        • #2817702

          wallmart stopped selling linux pc’s

          by bobgroz ·

          In reply to Answers for bobgroz

          Wallmart stopped selling linux pc’s because they were getting returned and not selling. You can no longer go into a wallmart store and buy a pc with linux on it. It was a fad, and it faded fast. I just can’t believe you guys believe that linux is a better desktop than windows for home users with little to none computer experience. It boggles my mind it’s so obvious. Linux is too complex, can’t run near the software that windows can, is very buggy, installation of drivers and software can be pure hell, still uses config files instead of solid gui interfaces.

          Read the 10 reasons Linux won’t overtake Windows. I posted that article from TECH REPUBLIC. Those were not MY thoughts, they were the research of a professional tech journalist

          Really read the article. It says most of what I am stating.

          I don’t hate Linux. It’s great for browsing the internet. But that’s about all I use it for (except to run hercules and work on my mainframe emulator).

          I’ve spent countless hours trying to get myth tv to work (I have a tv tuner card). It’s ridiculous what I had to go through to get it working. I spent over a week on the project off and on.

          Windows, on the other hand, runs tv right out of the box. Nothing to install, and it works better than myth tv in all kinds of ways. I still us windows to record shows, it’s 10x easier than myth tv.

          And that’s just one example. Do you think the average person is going to understand how to set up wine just to play 3 year old games? Even Cedega stinks (which should be included with Linux).

          And linux is NOT free. Yes Ubuntu is, but many distor’s cost money. Either directly by buying a boxed version or by paying a fee (i.e. Mandriva Linxux) to get their full distro.

          And I’m telling the truth when I say this. HALF of the software in the software “bin” that you can install, doesn’t install because of dependencies, errors in the software install itself. And lets face it, it really is much easier to install a piece of software on windows than on linux.

          On windows you double click and exe or load an autorun DVD/CD and the install just works. And you have many more software choices than with linux.

          Even OSx is better. Take for instance ISO files. I like put all my DVD;s in ISO format (movies) that I own.

          All I do under OSx is double click the ISO file and start the DVD player and bingo I’m watching my movie!

          Linux has nothing in place out of the box for things like that.

          Ubuntu takes over the MBR. I like my OS’s hidden from each other.

          Acronis maks a knockout product called Disk Director Suite. With it comes a boot manager. You can set it up so that you can hide each OS on your computer from the OS you are going to boot.

          You just click a few checkmarks.

          When grub or lilo takes over and wipes it out, I have to go into a config file and comment out the mount points for disks I don’t want to be mounted – it’s a tedious, human error prone process.

          Some distor’s, like mandriva get to a spot in the install where you are given a choice, do you want to install the boot record in the root partition or in the MBR.

          Now tell me, how many people will understand what THAT means. When you install windows, you can literally go get something to eat after answering a few simple questions – where do you want it installed and what timezone are you in, and off it goes. Yes I know it goes in the MBR but Acronis has an emergency CD to reinstall their product back in the MBR. It works with windows, but NOT with linux. Linux won’t even BOOT. So any distro that does not give me the ability to install the boot record in the root partition is OUT.

          I don’t think Ubuntu give that option. I don’t know for sure, but I’m not taking any chances.

          Virtualization software should be stock software in Linux. The user should have the options to set up a virtual windows system in Linux to get the software that will not run under Linux. Who wants to pay close to 200 bucks for VMWARE?

          No, Linux is much too advanced and much too buggy for the average home user. You guys think it’s easy, but thats because you’ve worked with it for years. You are probably all good linux people, but try to think what it would be like without your knowledge of Linux – try to think what it’s like for someone that knows nothing about dependencies, permission bits, rpm vs aptget, mythtv and other hard to install software that comes load on windows, text config files that must be edited to customize everything from what gets mounted to what gets started at boot time, runlevels, the uprmi rpm installation overseerer, I could go on if I kept thinking of things, but it really is quite confusing for someone that knows nothing about Linux.

          And I haven’t even gotten to the complex hardware setups for newly released hardware – even if IT CAN be made to work.

          I’m sorry, Linux has it’s niche. But it’s not on the home desktop. Read the article I posted about it that came from this group – TECH REPUBLIC. The author is a professional journalist with a good IT background. She makes some good points I didn’t even think of.

          I’m not knocking Linux. I’m just saying that for HOME USE it doesn’t fit for almost all of the home desktop world….

          Then you have to type “lilo” to “compile” your boot choices.

          How many people know this stuff? Only people that work with Linux.

          I would love to see a screenshot of somebody running the latest batman game on Linux. All games now are coming out with requirements of Games for Windows Live. Batman won’t even START under Linux.

          If anyone says they have it running, I want to see a screenshot. On many game publications and websites, batman was GAME OF THE YEAR. Under Linux I don’t even have the choice to run the Game of the Year.

          Now you can complain about game makers giving into windows with games for windows live, but the reason for it is that microsoft has vision and innovates. Then they sell their product to game companies who sign on with it.

          Games for windows live makes the PC look and act like the console games. It’s like running a game on a console, but being on a PC.

        • #2817606

          more things for bobgroz

          by jck ·

          In reply to wallmart stopped selling linux pc’s

          [i] Wallmart stopped selling linux pc’s because they were getting returned and not selling. You can no longer go into a wallmart store and buy a pc with linux on it. It was a fad, and it faded fast. [/i]

          It had nothing to do with ease of use or quality. It had to do with profit, and the fact that most people who go into a Wal-Mart wanted something they could install their Windows games on. In 2008, Wine as a default was not a standard. It is getting to be now.

          [i]I just can’t believe you guys believe that linux is a better desktop than windows for home users with little to none computer experience. It boggles my mind it’s so obvious. [/i]

          For a user with *no* experience, Linux is as easy to learn to use as Windows…period.

          Anyone with previous experience in one will find the next a smaller learning curve than an entirely new OS.

          [i]Linux is too complex, can’t run near the software that windows can, is very buggy, installation of drivers and software can be pure hell, still uses config files instead of solid gui interfaces.[/i]

          Too complex? It’s point and click like Windows.
          Very buggy? Never had it crash once on me because of a driver, unlike Windows.
          Uses config files? Windows still uses config files too.

          [i] Read the 10 reasons Linux won’t overtake Windows. I posted that article from TECH REPUBLIC. Those were not MY thoughts, they were the research of a professional tech journalist

          Really read the article. It says most of what I am stating.[/i]

          Most of it’s opinion, not fact.

          Fact is, no one can say for certain if Linux ever will.

          [i] I don’t hate Linux. It’s great for browsing the internet. But that’s about all I use it for (except to run hercules and work on my mainframe emulator).

          I’ve spent countless hours trying to get myth tv to work (I have a tv tuner card). It’s ridiculous what I had to go through to get it working. I spent over a week on the project off and on.[/i]

          Because of that, you think Linux is a failure?

          I have dual 5850 GPUs that run fine under Kubuntu 9.10 and have never hiccuped, and that is some of the latest video card technology out there.

          Why you would have some problem with yours working under Linux would be one reason: the manufacturer doesn’t support Linux drivers. Therefore, it would be YOUR fault for chosing something that isn’t multi-platform…not Linux’s.

          [i] Windows, on the other hand, runs tv right out of the box. Nothing to install, and it works better than myth tv in all kinds of ways. I still us windows to record shows, it’s 10x easier than myth tv.[/i]

          I have had *zero* peripherals not work with Linux in the past year or two.

          [i] And that’s just one example. Do you think the average person is going to understand how to set up wine just to play 3 year old games? Even Cedega stinks (which should be included with Linux).[/i]

          I’ve pointed out before, you can get distros with built-in Windows Emulation loading. It’s no longer a required install now. It’s becoming more and more a defacto standard of Linux standard installs for the desktop.

          [i] And linux is NOT free. Yes Ubuntu is, but many distor’s cost money. Either directly by buying a boxed version or by paying a fee (i.e. Mandriva Linxux) to get their full distro.[/i]

          I guarantee you for every pay-per home distro of Linux, I can show you 50 or more free ones.

          [i] And I’m telling the truth when I say this. HALF of the software in the software “bin” that you can install, doesn’t install because of dependencies, errors in the software install itself. And lets face it, it really is much easier to install a piece of software on windows than on linux.[/i]

          I dunno. Anything I’ve ever wanted to have on Kubuntu, I just went into the software add-ons, checked it to load, and it installed it. I never even had to go to a store.

          Not gotten much Windows software without leaving the house, unless of course you want to include AOL and NetZero discs.

          [i] On windows you double click and exe or load an autorun DVD/CD and the install just works. And you have many more software choices than with linux.[/i]

          Many more choices? Yeah, we have all said that before. Microsoft has also been a commercial enterprise since 1975 with $100B of research and investment dollars. Big stretch to think they would have made more progress than a public license open source software that’s 15 years younger?

          I’ve had Linux distros autorun and install for me just as easy. It’s not that Microsoft has the lock on ISO CD self-loading.

          [i] Even OSx is better. Take for instance ISO files. I like put all my DVD;s in ISO format (movies) that I own.

          All I do under OSx is double click the ISO file and start the DVD player and bingo I’m watching my movie!

          Linux has nothing in place out of the box for things like that.[/i]

          Linux has pretty much nothing out of a box. You download pretty much everything and install and run it.

          I’ve never tried burning ISOs in Linux, but I’ll do that sometime and get you a software package that will do it just as easily as Windows. I almost guarantee there are tons.

          [i] Ubuntu takes over the MBR. I like my OS’s hidden from each other.[/i]

          Wrong. Grub takes it over.

          [i] Acronis maks a knockout product called Disk Director Suite. With it comes a boot manager. You can set it up so that you can hide each OS on your computer from the OS you are going to boot.[/i]

          Uh…so I have to get a 3rd party software to do this…why?

          [i] When grub or lilo takes over and wipes it out, I have to go into a config file and comment out the mount points for disks I don’t want to be mounted – it’s a tedious, human error prone process.[/i]

          fdisk /mbr

          [i] Some distor’s, like mandriva get to a spot in the install where you are given a choice, do you want to install the boot record in the root partition or in the MBR.

          Now tell me, how many people will understand what THAT means. When you install windows, you can literally go get something to eat after answering a few simple questions – where do you want it installed and what timezone are you in, and off it goes. Yes I know it goes in the MBR but Acronis has an emergency CD to reinstall their product back in the MBR. It works with windows, but NOT with linux. Linux won’t even BOOT. So any distro that does not give me the ability to install the boot record in the root partition is OUT.[/i]

          When I installed Kubuntu 8 or 9, it was answer a few questions, select a partition to install to, optionally configure grub…and poof let it go.

          Easier than Windows XP by far, since it’s ALL GUI based.

          [i] I don’t think Ubuntu give that option. I don’t know for sure, but I’m not taking any chances.

          Virtualization software should be stock software in Linux. The user should have the options to set up a virtual windows system in Linux to get the software that will not run under Linux. Who wants to pay close to 200 bucks for VMWARE?[/i]

          I have VMWare on 3 computers, and haven’t paid a penny yet.

          As for other virtualization software, there are other ones. You just have to look for them.

          [i] No, Linux is much too advanced and much too buggy for the average home user. You guys think it’s easy, but thats because you’ve worked with it for years. You are probably all good linux people, but try to think what it would be like without your knowledge of Linux – try to think what it’s like for someone that knows nothing about dependencies, permission bits, rpm vs aptget, mythtv and other hard to install software that comes load on windows, text config files that must be edited to customize everything from what gets mounted to what gets started at boot time, runlevels, the uprmi rpm installation overseerer, I could go on if I kept thinking of things, but it really is quite confusing for someone that knows nothing about Linux.[/i]

          Shows what you know. I am a Windows programmer, and have been for 15 years.

          [i] And I haven’t even gotten to the complex hardware setups for newly released hardware – even if IT CAN be made to work.

          I’m sorry, Linux has it’s niche. But it’s not on the home desktop. Read the article I posted about it that came from this group – TECH REPUBLIC. The author is a professional journalist with a good IT background. She makes some good points I didn’t even think of.[/i]

          I read it. Windows keeps most of its marketshare because people are afraid of change and the unknown, not because Linux is less able to process.

          [i] I’m not knocking Linux. I’m just saying that for HOME USE it doesn’t fit for almost all of the home desktop world….

          Then you have to type “lilo” to “compile” your boot choices.

          How many people know this stuff? Only people that work with Linux.[/i]

          What? Compile? Are you serious?

          [i] I would love to see a screenshot of somebody running the latest batman game on Linux. All games now are coming out with requirements of Games for Windows Live. Batman won’t even START under Linux.

          If anyone says they have it running, I want to see a screenshot. On many game publications and websites, batman was GAME OF THE YEAR. Under Linux I don’t even have the choice to run the Game of the Year.[/i]

          you obviously are ignoring what others have told you. DirectX11 is a Microsoft based graphics system. OpenGL3 would be what needs to be done. If that Batman game is capable of running non-MS graphics engines, I’m sure Linux could run it under Wine or another Windows emulator.

          [i] Now you can complain about game makers giving into windows with games for windows live, but the reason for it is that microsoft has vision and innovates. Then they sell their product to game companies who sign on with it.

          Games for windows live makes the PC look and act like the console games. It’s like running a game on a console, but being on a PC.[/i]

          Microsoft muscled their way into the market, and have strong-armed the industry for years. Gates even took stock in HP years ago to get his printing more accepted to the industry, and he practically rammed Adobe TrueType down everyone’s throats because he was “in bed” with them.

          Microsoft doesn’t promote innovation unless it benefits their bottom line. That’s why they were trying to get in cahoots with Novell to get into the Linux world and steal all its ideas and try to make them proprietary to their things so they could control that facet of technology.

          MS = money-hungry machine, not innovator.

    • #2816630

      Ten reasons why Windows will rule the desktop

      by bobgroz ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      10 Reasons Windows 7 Will Rule the Desktop OS Space
      December 16, 2009
      Debra Littlejohn Shinder

      There has been much hype over the last few years about Linux and Mac gaining market share, and even though their numbers are still small (both in single digits), some have gone so far as to predict that Windows is in danger and that Linux will “triumph over Windows” or that Mac OS is “set to become the dominant operating system in the world.”

      The perceived failure of Windows Vista – whose death was greatly exaggerated by a series of clever but not entirely accurate Apple commercials – only added fuel to the fire. Based on some of the headlines, you would have thought that individuals and companies were abandoning Microsoft in droves and flocking to the alternative operating systems. The impressive sales of the original EeePC and other Linux-based netbooks seemed to support that contention. Then, vendors started making netbooks that run Windows XP and the reports started coming in that Linux netbooks were being returned at a rate four times that of their Windows-based counterparts.

      As of October 2009, according to Net Applications, Windows still had more than 92% of the total OS market share but Windows 7 only made up 4%. On the other hand, Windows 7 achieved that number only two weeks after being released; it took Vista seven months to reach 4%. Linux is nowhere near that figure (at around 1%), and Mac is only slightly higher (5.27%).)

      So how will it all play out now that Windows 7 is in the game? Here are 10 reasons I believe Microsoft’s new OS will rule the desktop operating system space just as XP does now.

      1. XP Users are (Finally) Ready for Something New
      Windows XP currently holds more than 70% of the OS market share, according to Net Applications. But XP was released in 2001, and despite three service packs, it’s getting a bit long in the tooth. Although service packs have added features as well as fixes, XP still lacks many of the usability features that were added to Vista and Windows 7.

      Of more concern, especially to businesses, XP lacks many of the security mechanisms that are built into Vista and Windows 7, such as UAC, protected mode IE, BitLocker encryption (some editions), system services that are more isolated and run with fewer privileges, a new TCP/IP stack with better authentication and encryption, Address Space Layout Randomization, and more.

      Even many XP diehards are beginning to yearn for something new, and companies that want to take advantage of enterprise technologies such as DirectAccess and AppLocker will need to upgrade.

      2. It’s (Usually) an Easy Upgrade from Vista
      For those who are already running Vista SP1 or above, an in-place upgrade to Windows 7 is quick and easy on most computers. (However, note that there have been reports among a small number of users of an “endless reboot loop” problem with Vista-to-Win7 upgrades.)

      Nonetheless, I have upgraded a number of desktops and laptops from Vista to Windows 7 with no problems, and the vast majority of my readers have reported the same experience. Unlike with in-place upgrades with past operating systems, I have seen no performance or stability problems in the upgraded systems.

      3. It’s Better, but Not too Different
      Moving to any new OS always involves a learning curve. Some people love discovering new features and learning new ways of doing things. Others hate change, even when it’s good change. In general, computer users just want to be able to get their work done. Most are used to the way things are done in Windows, and the basics are still there in Windows 7. Switching to an entirely different platform, such as Linux or Mac, takes much more getting used to.

      It’s certainly true that the graphical user interfaces for Linux have gotten better over the years, but computer users coming from a Windows environment will still find some challenges awaiting them there. The terminology is different – you have a root account instead of administrator. The file system is different – you have mysterious locations such as /dev for your peripherals (mouse, keyboard, monitor), /bin for binary (executable) files, and /etc for editable text configuration files. An application’s files are spread out on your hard drive in different directories, not installed in their own separate subdirectories as they are in Windows. Installing a program may or may not involve having to compile the source code or create your own installation package. In addition to getting used to a new OS, in many cases you’ll have to get used to new applications, too, since many Windows apps don’t have Linux versions.

      The Mac OS is a little more intuitive, but if you’re coming from Windows, it’s still a bit like entering a foreign country. There are none of the installation and setup problems you might experience with Linux, since OS X runs only on Apple hardware. However, you’ll find that things are “arranged” differently. For instance, a program’s menus appear at the top of the screen, rather than in the program’s own window as they do in Windows. Once again, many of the productivity programs you’re used to using won’t run on the Mac, so you’ll need new ones and, unlike with Linux, most of them are not free.

      Windows 7 has a new, sleeker look and a number of new features, but it still retains the Windows feel. It generally takes XP users much less time to get to know the OS than when switching to a Linux or Mac platform.

      4. Hardware Requirements Are Reasonable
      Many computer users were unhappy with the increased hardware requirements of Windows Vista. Those with older XP machines often found that their systems wouldn’t support the new operating system. That led some to switch to Linux, which would run on less powerful computers.

      By almost all accounts, Windows 7 runs much better on old or low cost machines than Vista did. Many users have been able to install and run Windows 7 on computers that would not run Vista satisfactorily, if at all. Fewer users will be forced to buy new hardware to upgrade to Windows 7, which might mean fewer will be moving to Linux to get a new OS without upgrading the hardware.

      Of course, the Mac OS can’t be installed on non-Apple hardware, so moving from XP or Vista to a Mac necessitates buying new hardware, regardless of how powerful your current system might be.

      5: Most Computer Users Aren’t Geeks
      Geeks love the challenge of getting the hardware and software to work, and they don’t mind spending hours or days experimenting with configuration settings or swapping out cards. Linux is the perfect OS for geeks – but most computer users aren’t geeks. They care about the task, not the technology. They just want to be able to get their work done or play their game without worrying about hunting down the right drivers or compiling code themselves.

      When a geek is told to “Just extract the tarball and use flex or bison to compile the app,” hey, no problem. When typical home or office computer users encounter those words, they blink in confusion or cower in fear. Sure, new distros of Linux are easier to use than ever, but they still aren’t as easy to use as Windows – especially when you factor in the familiarity aspect.

      6. Most Computer Users Don’t Care about “Cool”
      For some folks, it’s all about being cool. And Apple products are undeniably cool, from the super thin Macbook Air to the charming Mini to the sleek and sexy iPhone. The goal is to be on the cutting edge, to own what’s “in” (remember Cabbage Patch Kids?). Form takes precedence over functionality. It’s also about elitism: being able to afford the “very best.” Those people naturally gravitate to high priced, showy Macs.

      However, the majority of computer users don’t use their computers to make a fashion statement; they use them to run applications. which brings us to the next point.

      7. There Are a Lot of Apps for That
      No matter how nice those Macs look, they don’t run all the applications that many users need. Apple brags that one of the reasons to choose an iPhone is the fact that there are more apps available for it than for some other mobile phone operating systems. Well, that same principle applies when choosing a desktop OS – but in that case, Windows wins hands-down. There are more programs. Even more important, more of the programs that function as the de facto standard for a particular purpose (such as the Microsoft Office programs) are made for Windows. Yes, there’s Office for Mac, too, but it doesn’t have all the features and functionality of its Windows counterpart.

      The same goes for Linux. There are substitutes available, such as Open Office instead of Office, or GIMP instead of PhotoShop, but it’s just not the same. Even though these alternatives may be free, most people who rely on their applications for important work prefer the commercial versions (which run on Windows).

      Mac and Linux fans will quickly point out that you can always use Parallels or Wine to run Windows apps in a virtualized environment. But the fact that those options are so popular just reinforces the argument that Windows has the best apps.

      8. You Get More – and Less
      Windows 7 gives you more new features, while at the same time providing a leaner and meaner OS. You no longer have to install a third-party application to get handy little functionalities like Sticky Notes, and Windows 7 adds major improvements to the interface, such as multi-touch support. You also get more keyboard shortcuts to speed up input, as well as the ability to encrypt removable drives with BitLocker to Go, better support for solid state drives, and virtual hard disks. Windows 7 has built-in biometric support, and Windows Media Center now comes with the Pro edition (but can easily be blocked via Group Policy in the business environment). Standard built-in apps such as Paint, Wordpad, and Calculator have been made more feature-rich so that you can do much more with them.

      Yet all of these additions don’t make Windows 7 a more bloated operating system. Microsoft also cut out many of the apps that were built into previous operating systems, but which many users never used. The email client (Windows Mail), more sophisticated Photo Editor (Windows Photo Gallery), Contacts, and Calendar programs are no longer installed with the OS. Yet for those who want them, all of those programs are still available as free downloads from the Microsoft Windows Live Web site.

      9. The Price Is (Generally) Right
      Sure, there have been many complaints that Windows 7 costs too much. But Microsoft actually dropped the price of the Home Premium edition, in comparison with the same edition of Vista, and it kept the prices the same for other editions. The list price for the full version of Windows 7 Professional is the same as for Windows XP ($299.99).

      Although the full version prices may sound a tad high ($199.99 for Home Premium, $299.99 for Pro, and $319.99 for Ultimate), the vast majority of people will already have a qualifying Microsoft operating system. So they’ll pay the upgrade price ($119.99 for Home Premium, $199.99 for Pro, and $219.99 for Ultimate) or buy a new computer with Windows 7 preinstalled (with drastically discounted OEM pricing).

      A number of discount programs are also available, such as the student discount (one copy of Home Premium or Pro for $29.99 for students enrolled in colleges and universities) and the family pack discount (three Home Premium upgrade licenses for $149.99).

      10. Businesses Care about the Bottom Line
      Speaking of price, what it all comes down to in the business world is the bottom line. Companies compare total cost of ownership of different software options, not just the initial price point. That includes support costs, hardware costs, training costs, and productivity impact. And the majority of businesses, after doing such an analysis, choose to stick with Windows.

    • #2817641

      good post by an IT professional in Florida

      by bobgroz ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      This is a post telling what must be done to install the latest version of KDE. The version before this was so bug ridden, people were writing KDE off forever. Apparently they have fixed many of the bugs, but installation is in no way suited for a home computer user. The post was taken right here of Tech Republic an is as follows:

      Linux in the mainstream?
      And people wonder why Linux still hasn’t taken off as a true competitor to Windows or OS X. I like Linux and play with it from time to time, but this alone illustrates why adoption is still a problem:

      “In order to install 4.3.5 you have to open up your /etc/apt/sources.list file and uncomment the line:
      deb-src http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ karmic-backports main restricted universe multiverse”

      So many people have no interest in becoming their own OS mechanic.
      Posted: 02/14/2010 @ 08:09 AM (PST)

      greg.harry@…
      Job Role: Other IS/IT or Technology Function
      Location: Orlando, Florida
      Member since: 08/10/2005

      • #2817633

        A home user would stay with the default

        by neon samurai ·

        In reply to good post by an IT professional in Florida

        A home user would stick with the repository defaults. KDE is available in the repositories so it shouldn’t be more than a checkbox in Synaptic (the GUI package manager). These directions you posted show someone going outside the default repositories (hence, the lack of fear about editing a text file).

        By comparison, Debian 5 Lenny’s current KDE version is 3 and it cleanly installs by either checking the box beside “kde” in synamptic (graphic package manager) or simply typing “aptitude install kde” for those not command line adverse.

        The most appropriate solution, for a user who couldn’t live without the latest KDE4 but wanted to remain within the distribution repositories, would be choosing a distribution that defaults to KDE4. (eg. using Kubuntu instead of forcing KDE into an Ubuntu install) Look at something like the latest Mint distribution and you’ll get a very polished KDE4 desktop.

        On the other hand, if this is simply a “look what example i can find” contest, we could spend all day cherry picking examples that fit a personally preferred outcome. And, that still won’t change the fact that any of the three major families of platforms can be a viable desktop option given specific user needs.

    • #3037580

      I am a new Linux user

      by serendipityii ·

      In reply to linux will never compete with windows in the home market

      I installed Linux about a month ago on a new computer and I couldn’t be happier. I was upset that XP users couldn’t directly upgrade to 7. I am not a gamer so my main concern was financial software and there were at least 3 programs available. My second concern was Internet my mobile broadband card is supported and came right up without any installation. I have convinced others to quit MS since then.

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