Discussions

Outsource of IT to India

Tags:
+
0 Votes
Locked

Outsource of IT to India

dannyHk
I am having my job outsourced to India. Is there such a thing as a career in IT anymore or is it a cheap, value less, commodity now? Should I look at another area?

Seems like Management or Sales are the only safe options these days.

One problem I see with outsourcing is that the cheaper guys get trained up and then move onto higher paying roles. So the companies end up getting very bad service levels as the staff are always new. But I guess cheap IT makes the share price look good which is far more important.
  • +
    0 Votes
    swisstonihasher

    I have to agree...Companies that do this aren't looking for quality service from IT, its just so the fat cats can get...fatter!

    I've already thought about a change of career and I'm already 99?% sure I'll have to do it before to long.

    +
    0 Votes
    elrico-fantastica

    look at the call center trends that followed the outsourcing surge.

    at first companies saw the cost saving as the best deal so outsourced all their call center needs to india and the surrounding countries. this for a while was concidered the best choice from a business standpoint.

    now if you watch the TV you will see adverts for insurance companies and banks taking the time to mention their call centers are now local to the country they are covering. it seems with everyone outsourcing to india the companies offering english speaking staff are becoming more popular and so companies are changing the business model again.

    give it a while and then the new "fad" will be to have local based IT and focus on quality of service rather than cost cutting.

    +
    0 Votes
    oded

    So call centres are out sourced to India.

    At least two problems: names of clients have been sold to third party, probably for illegal purposes.

    As India is not under UK law, what happens if call centre people screw up: not setting direct debit correctly, not transferring money or any other financial transaction?!

    Who is responsible for mistakes/screwups?

    +
    0 Votes
    Locrian_Lyric

    I know of three MAJOR companies that are reversing their outsourcing.

    There's even a term for it... BACKSOURCING.

    It's when the company comes to the point of 'ooops'

    +
    0 Votes
    Wayne M.

    The problem is that once an industry has been outsourced or offshored for price, there is no infrastructure or capital available to create a local alternative. Like it or not, the offshore location has all of the advantages for quality improvement; it is extremely difficult to establish a local practice from scratch with improved quality and a competitive price point.

    +
    0 Votes
    Locrian_Lyric

    telecom is generally better in the USA, plus telecommuting eliminates the overhead costs of maintaining a business location.

    +
    0 Votes
    da philster

    For short-term, just go ahead and outsource. This will gratify the shareholders but encourage the growth of the disease of "Quarteritis" which proposes instant results and the future of the North American worker be damned.
    Quality of service is unlikely to ultimately survive under that scenario.
    For a change, let's put the customer FIRST once again (and not just talk about it).Let us remember that's how North America succeeded in the first place. Who knows, it may, over time, even satisfy the shareholder ("not that there's anything wrong with a shareholder")
    I'm still convinced that there is a domestic demand for qualified IT personnel.

    +
    0 Votes
    rclark

    or until the first bank outsources it's accounting to Nigeria.

    +
    0 Votes
    carlsf

    This is NOT a new phenomon and it will continue as long a the managers of the outsourcing company can convince the directors thewre is a cost benifit.

    Bottom Line is there isnt and it will fail for the following reasons.....

    a) who want to listen to bad or broken english
    b) spend hours going round in circles because the help on the other end of the line does not know their job (Symantec help a prime example)
    c) people stop purchasing this brand after a few bad calls.

    Me after such calls I call the head office of the brand effected and let them know.
    I then send a letter addressed to the MD/Directors and tell them the reason and that I will NO longer purchase their products.

    Benifit
    a) makes you feel better
    b) you will probally get a call (as long as they have not had too many calls ) asking WHY?
    c) A decline in sales is NOT a good look

    Why do you think DELL went back to bundling XP with DELL systems it WORKS......

    +
    0 Votes
    rketchum

    Time zone differences are also a factor. I recently had a problem with Win XP Pro, caused by combination of the ANI and DST patches. I live in the middle of the US, (Central time zone.) I contacted Micro$oft support via email and 2 days later received a reply with a trouble ticket number. I responded with further detail at about 9 AM local time. By the time got another reply, it was after 5 PM the following day. I had to use my laptop with Win ME, since the XP problem stopped me from going online.

    This went on for about 3 or 4 weeks as each attempted troubleshooting and diagnostic method would take me a hour to check out. Then I would reply with the results and wait for another day for the response and additional instructions. I finally copied what I could of my personal files/settings and reformatted the drive along with a complete reinstall of all my software.

    I would switch to an alternate OS except I don't feel like doing all the DOS type command line entries and relearning it all over again. It took me a while to get it all the first time around. I am now a home user and don't get paid, anymore, to support the LAN/WAN, dialup, remote or local network users. Now it's only my own stand alone PC's.

    +
    0 Votes
    support

    You are right. The quality of IT products, services and customer service is in decline.

    You are also right in that people HATE speaking to "support" reps in broken English and that read from a script because the "support" reps don't know (and have probably never seen or used) the products they "support".

    But, you are wrong in assuming that people will no longer purchase their products because of these things.

    It has been proven time and again that US consumers complain a lot but rarely DO anything about it. Most of them will continue to buy a crappy product and just keep complaining - so the company really doesn't lose much in terms of customer turnover.

    The main problem is that most all IT-based businesses do this now. So, (with VERY rare exception) company A's tech support sucks just as bad as companys' B, C, D....etc. Therefore there is no valid reason to switch products or services.

    I wish I were wrong....

    +
    0 Votes
    sfessey

    IF 60% of your customer base screamed about it then I would expect to see action. Since only a small percentage will actually complain the perception is that the service being provided is adequate for the customers needs.

    This perception is often only discovered to be false when other aspects such as customer loyalty start to have an effect on headline figures like sales. Loyalty is hard to gain and once you lose it the downward slope can be a long one before it turns up again.

    That said, I am not against outsourcing, to India or any other country. I think it can deliver perfectly acceptable results, it is simply a matter of matching the needs of the business and their customers and often the key measure is quality.

    Often, lower quality is good enough and if the cost benefits are there it makes good business sense also. When lower quality does not make good business sense then and only then will we see the change.

    +
    0 Votes
    Locrian_Lyric

    I know of four companies that are reversing the trend.

    Two of them are former employers of mine, one a former competitor and one is a company my brother deals with.

    These are four corporate giants, btw.

    +
    0 Votes
    Locrian_Lyric

    I won't say which one....

    but Rupert Murdoch is trying to buy them for 5.5 billion.....

    +
    0 Votes
    justin.mckanna

    It's no longer as cheap as people think it is, if it ever was when you factor in the overhead of managing and communicating to teams in different time zones, due to the rise of the value of the rupee.

    Check out this article in today's London Times:

    http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/support_services/article1896086.ece

    Highlights from the article...

    "India?s IT companies are struggling to cope with wage inflation of about 15 per cent a year while the country?s universities ? which are churning out more than two million software engineers a year ? cannot keep up with the demand for new recruits."

    The rupee has gained 9.2 per cent against the dollar this year, eroding the earnings of Indian companies that generate a large proportion of their sales in the US. The National Association of Software and Service Companies (Nasscom) the trade body for India?s $48 billion IT industry, has said that the rupee?s surge will blunt the country?s competitive edge."

    Good luck.

    +
    0 Votes
    Locrian_Lyric

    I have some in depth knowledge of thsi asI was transfered to the outsourcing department of a former employer of mine.

    It takes 1.5 Indian programmers to equal the productivity of an American programmer due to various factors including cultural barriers, telecom issues, high rollover and a few others.

    The median cost per hour for an IT worker in India is now approximately 40/hr while the median cost for an American worker is approximately 55-65/hr (this includes floorspace, HR overhead, benefits and taxes)

    Do the math....

    40 * 1.5 = 60....
    or
    It's just as costly to hire in India now.

    +
    0 Votes
    SlappyMcnasty

    Two companies I have worked for in the past two years are struggling to staff their India IT shops and when they do find a qualified resource they get 6 months experience and jump. There seems to be some dot com boom like job switching going on in India.

    The other problem I see is that the 2 million "IT graduates" that India is kicking out a year don't get IT. I think there are a lot more people getting into IT for money rather than thats what they want to do and it is really starting to show in the quality of work.

    On the other hand, the US is still not producing nearly enough IT people, so the off shoring trend will continue with rapidly diminishing returns.

    As for the other part of this post, I believe you can't go wrong hitting a specialty tool at this time. BEA Aqua Logic, Tibco BW/BE or IBM Webshere BPM or MB. Very good paying jobs and all of them are actually pretty easy to learn and use. SOA is still hot, if you can learn and truly understand web services or SOA, you can find nice gigs.

    +
    0 Votes
    CaptBilly1Eye

    They outsource to India and then those so-called techs log into TR and we give them the answers. Have you noticed the high volume of questioners from "IN, PK, BD"?

    That's why, when I'm paying attention, I do not respond to users from those countries.
    Plus the fact that the majority barely understand english.

    wait a sec... you're from HK... I usually ignore those, too
    Many of our IT & tech support jobs here in the U.S. were outsourced to China years back.
    Hmmmmmm.... no offense, but... maybe it's a matter of 'What Goes Around, Comes Around'?!?
    ;\

    +
    0 Votes
    dannyHk

    Yes I am an expatriate in Hong Kong, originally from Australia. It's a great place - low tax, the most convenient place on earth and lots of fun in the bars and clubs. It's totally different to China. Hong Kong has the best mix of British and Chinese culture. It is the closest thing to Utopia on earth - except for the pollution. It will be very,very sad to leave and go back to Australia.

    I have lots of Indain friends. Most of them are very good engineers i.e. the ones who have been around a long time. They are very professional about their jobs and do whatever it takes to keep the business running. But they have been looked after by the companies they work for.

    Everyones comments reflect what is happening in the company I work. The company was late to jump on the outsourcing band wagon. The earlier companies were smart. They actually tried to incorporate the best of the Indian talent into their companies and did not treat the talent as a commodity. People are people whatever part of the planet they come from if you treat them as human beings and give them a hope and a future they will do amazing things for any company. Treat them as a commodity and you get what you pay for.

    +
    0 Votes
    maryRRR

    I must admit that I get miffed when the "support" on the other end of the phone line speaks in such broken language that I cannot understand. A little patience follows...just in case it could be a peer who is learning English as a second language. Beyond that, I, too, tire of losing work just because someone can do it cheaper...not just a LITTLE cheaper, but TONS cheaper. Why do you think we don't see more IT Consultants unite to form <virtual> IT companies? We all like to telecommute; we all have our expertises that could complement other peers on a project. Perhaps it's a case of our not trusting those whom we don't know? What if the uniting were done on a more 'regional' basis. Networking with others at local user groups or professional associations might help to solidify such working relationships. I realize companies want solid references for outsourcing any work. But that's just a part of doing business, and we should not shy away from presenting such a professional front. OK, perhaps I am being naive...but it's worth a thought. We can fuss or we can survive.

    +
    0 Votes
    mahender.chaudhary

    dear all,

    ya ! it's a pain for a particul person. but orgnazation want cheap labour for the work which can be outsourse, but here one more game is playing which is > global software is outsourseing to > cheap compney in world> thease comneyes outsourseing there IT helpdesk to more cheap compneyes, now you people can imagein how much is this painful to last outsoursed employeies.

  • +
    0 Votes
    swisstonihasher

    I have to agree...Companies that do this aren't looking for quality service from IT, its just so the fat cats can get...fatter!

    I've already thought about a change of career and I'm already 99?% sure I'll have to do it before to long.

    +
    0 Votes
    elrico-fantastica

    look at the call center trends that followed the outsourcing surge.

    at first companies saw the cost saving as the best deal so outsourced all their call center needs to india and the surrounding countries. this for a while was concidered the best choice from a business standpoint.

    now if you watch the TV you will see adverts for insurance companies and banks taking the time to mention their call centers are now local to the country they are covering. it seems with everyone outsourcing to india the companies offering english speaking staff are becoming more popular and so companies are changing the business model again.

    give it a while and then the new "fad" will be to have local based IT and focus on quality of service rather than cost cutting.

    +
    0 Votes
    oded

    So call centres are out sourced to India.

    At least two problems: names of clients have been sold to third party, probably for illegal purposes.

    As India is not under UK law, what happens if call centre people screw up: not setting direct debit correctly, not transferring money or any other financial transaction?!

    Who is responsible for mistakes/screwups?

    +
    0 Votes
    Locrian_Lyric

    I know of three MAJOR companies that are reversing their outsourcing.

    There's even a term for it... BACKSOURCING.

    It's when the company comes to the point of 'ooops'

    +
    0 Votes
    Wayne M.

    The problem is that once an industry has been outsourced or offshored for price, there is no infrastructure or capital available to create a local alternative. Like it or not, the offshore location has all of the advantages for quality improvement; it is extremely difficult to establish a local practice from scratch with improved quality and a competitive price point.

    +
    0 Votes
    Locrian_Lyric

    telecom is generally better in the USA, plus telecommuting eliminates the overhead costs of maintaining a business location.

    +
    0 Votes
    da philster

    For short-term, just go ahead and outsource. This will gratify the shareholders but encourage the growth of the disease of "Quarteritis" which proposes instant results and the future of the North American worker be damned.
    Quality of service is unlikely to ultimately survive under that scenario.
    For a change, let's put the customer FIRST once again (and not just talk about it).Let us remember that's how North America succeeded in the first place. Who knows, it may, over time, even satisfy the shareholder ("not that there's anything wrong with a shareholder")
    I'm still convinced that there is a domestic demand for qualified IT personnel.

    +
    0 Votes
    rclark

    or until the first bank outsources it's accounting to Nigeria.

    +
    0 Votes
    carlsf

    This is NOT a new phenomon and it will continue as long a the managers of the outsourcing company can convince the directors thewre is a cost benifit.

    Bottom Line is there isnt and it will fail for the following reasons.....

    a) who want to listen to bad or broken english
    b) spend hours going round in circles because the help on the other end of the line does not know their job (Symantec help a prime example)
    c) people stop purchasing this brand after a few bad calls.

    Me after such calls I call the head office of the brand effected and let them know.
    I then send a letter addressed to the MD/Directors and tell them the reason and that I will NO longer purchase their products.

    Benifit
    a) makes you feel better
    b) you will probally get a call (as long as they have not had too many calls ) asking WHY?
    c) A decline in sales is NOT a good look

    Why do you think DELL went back to bundling XP with DELL systems it WORKS......

    +
    0 Votes
    rketchum

    Time zone differences are also a factor. I recently had a problem with Win XP Pro, caused by combination of the ANI and DST patches. I live in the middle of the US, (Central time zone.) I contacted Micro$oft support via email and 2 days later received a reply with a trouble ticket number. I responded with further detail at about 9 AM local time. By the time got another reply, it was after 5 PM the following day. I had to use my laptop with Win ME, since the XP problem stopped me from going online.

    This went on for about 3 or 4 weeks as each attempted troubleshooting and diagnostic method would take me a hour to check out. Then I would reply with the results and wait for another day for the response and additional instructions. I finally copied what I could of my personal files/settings and reformatted the drive along with a complete reinstall of all my software.

    I would switch to an alternate OS except I don't feel like doing all the DOS type command line entries and relearning it all over again. It took me a while to get it all the first time around. I am now a home user and don't get paid, anymore, to support the LAN/WAN, dialup, remote or local network users. Now it's only my own stand alone PC's.

    +
    0 Votes
    support

    You are right. The quality of IT products, services and customer service is in decline.

    You are also right in that people HATE speaking to "support" reps in broken English and that read from a script because the "support" reps don't know (and have probably never seen or used) the products they "support".

    But, you are wrong in assuming that people will no longer purchase their products because of these things.

    It has been proven time and again that US consumers complain a lot but rarely DO anything about it. Most of them will continue to buy a crappy product and just keep complaining - so the company really doesn't lose much in terms of customer turnover.

    The main problem is that most all IT-based businesses do this now. So, (with VERY rare exception) company A's tech support sucks just as bad as companys' B, C, D....etc. Therefore there is no valid reason to switch products or services.

    I wish I were wrong....

    +
    0 Votes
    sfessey

    IF 60% of your customer base screamed about it then I would expect to see action. Since only a small percentage will actually complain the perception is that the service being provided is adequate for the customers needs.

    This perception is often only discovered to be false when other aspects such as customer loyalty start to have an effect on headline figures like sales. Loyalty is hard to gain and once you lose it the downward slope can be a long one before it turns up again.

    That said, I am not against outsourcing, to India or any other country. I think it can deliver perfectly acceptable results, it is simply a matter of matching the needs of the business and their customers and often the key measure is quality.

    Often, lower quality is good enough and if the cost benefits are there it makes good business sense also. When lower quality does not make good business sense then and only then will we see the change.

    +
    0 Votes
    Locrian_Lyric

    I know of four companies that are reversing the trend.

    Two of them are former employers of mine, one a former competitor and one is a company my brother deals with.

    These are four corporate giants, btw.

    +
    0 Votes
    Locrian_Lyric

    I won't say which one....

    but Rupert Murdoch is trying to buy them for 5.5 billion.....

    +
    0 Votes
    justin.mckanna

    It's no longer as cheap as people think it is, if it ever was when you factor in the overhead of managing and communicating to teams in different time zones, due to the rise of the value of the rupee.

    Check out this article in today's London Times:

    http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/support_services/article1896086.ece

    Highlights from the article...

    "India?s IT companies are struggling to cope with wage inflation of about 15 per cent a year while the country?s universities ? which are churning out more than two million software engineers a year ? cannot keep up with the demand for new recruits."

    The rupee has gained 9.2 per cent against the dollar this year, eroding the earnings of Indian companies that generate a large proportion of their sales in the US. The National Association of Software and Service Companies (Nasscom) the trade body for India?s $48 billion IT industry, has said that the rupee?s surge will blunt the country?s competitive edge."

    Good luck.

    +
    0 Votes
    Locrian_Lyric

    I have some in depth knowledge of thsi asI was transfered to the outsourcing department of a former employer of mine.

    It takes 1.5 Indian programmers to equal the productivity of an American programmer due to various factors including cultural barriers, telecom issues, high rollover and a few others.

    The median cost per hour for an IT worker in India is now approximately 40/hr while the median cost for an American worker is approximately 55-65/hr (this includes floorspace, HR overhead, benefits and taxes)

    Do the math....

    40 * 1.5 = 60....
    or
    It's just as costly to hire in India now.

    +
    0 Votes
    SlappyMcnasty

    Two companies I have worked for in the past two years are struggling to staff their India IT shops and when they do find a qualified resource they get 6 months experience and jump. There seems to be some dot com boom like job switching going on in India.

    The other problem I see is that the 2 million "IT graduates" that India is kicking out a year don't get IT. I think there are a lot more people getting into IT for money rather than thats what they want to do and it is really starting to show in the quality of work.

    On the other hand, the US is still not producing nearly enough IT people, so the off shoring trend will continue with rapidly diminishing returns.

    As for the other part of this post, I believe you can't go wrong hitting a specialty tool at this time. BEA Aqua Logic, Tibco BW/BE or IBM Webshere BPM or MB. Very good paying jobs and all of them are actually pretty easy to learn and use. SOA is still hot, if you can learn and truly understand web services or SOA, you can find nice gigs.

    +
    0 Votes
    CaptBilly1Eye

    They outsource to India and then those so-called techs log into TR and we give them the answers. Have you noticed the high volume of questioners from "IN, PK, BD"?

    That's why, when I'm paying attention, I do not respond to users from those countries.
    Plus the fact that the majority barely understand english.

    wait a sec... you're from HK... I usually ignore those, too
    Many of our IT & tech support jobs here in the U.S. were outsourced to China years back.
    Hmmmmmm.... no offense, but... maybe it's a matter of 'What Goes Around, Comes Around'?!?
    ;\

    +
    0 Votes
    dannyHk

    Yes I am an expatriate in Hong Kong, originally from Australia. It's a great place - low tax, the most convenient place on earth and lots of fun in the bars and clubs. It's totally different to China. Hong Kong has the best mix of British and Chinese culture. It is the closest thing to Utopia on earth - except for the pollution. It will be very,very sad to leave and go back to Australia.

    I have lots of Indain friends. Most of them are very good engineers i.e. the ones who have been around a long time. They are very professional about their jobs and do whatever it takes to keep the business running. But they have been looked after by the companies they work for.

    Everyones comments reflect what is happening in the company I work. The company was late to jump on the outsourcing band wagon. The earlier companies were smart. They actually tried to incorporate the best of the Indian talent into their companies and did not treat the talent as a commodity. People are people whatever part of the planet they come from if you treat them as human beings and give them a hope and a future they will do amazing things for any company. Treat them as a commodity and you get what you pay for.

    +
    0 Votes
    maryRRR

    I must admit that I get miffed when the "support" on the other end of the phone line speaks in such broken language that I cannot understand. A little patience follows...just in case it could be a peer who is learning English as a second language. Beyond that, I, too, tire of losing work just because someone can do it cheaper...not just a LITTLE cheaper, but TONS cheaper. Why do you think we don't see more IT Consultants unite to form <virtual> IT companies? We all like to telecommute; we all have our expertises that could complement other peers on a project. Perhaps it's a case of our not trusting those whom we don't know? What if the uniting were done on a more 'regional' basis. Networking with others at local user groups or professional associations might help to solidify such working relationships. I realize companies want solid references for outsourcing any work. But that's just a part of doing business, and we should not shy away from presenting such a professional front. OK, perhaps I am being naive...but it's worth a thought. We can fuss or we can survive.

    +
    0 Votes
    mahender.chaudhary

    dear all,

    ya ! it's a pain for a particul person. but orgnazation want cheap labour for the work which can be outsourse, but here one more game is playing which is > global software is outsourseing to > cheap compney in world> thease comneyes outsourseing there IT helpdesk to more cheap compneyes, now you people can imagein how much is this painful to last outsoursed employeies.