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Pot Calling the Kettle Black

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Pot Calling the Kettle Black

TheChas
For those of you who have been around more than 40 years, you might understand what the title US colloquial expression means. Along with the topic of this thread.

I see that Jimmy Carter has voiced that GWB has ruined the US reputation in the World through failed foreign policy decisions. The worst being pre-emptive war.

For those of you who remember the years between 1976 and 1980, the US did not have great stature in the eyes of the World back then either.

For President Carter to claim that the Bush administration has the worst record on foreign policy, one has to either gloss over the Iran hostage crisis, or believe the GWB has really messed things up.

Now, I do hold Jimmy Carter in much higher regard as a person and a man than GWB. Still, even I am somewhat surprised at the level of his criticism of a sitting President.

Not that I disagree with former President Carter's assessment of the situation the US is in after 6 years under the auspices of GWB. I'm just surprised that he would be so vocal and vehement about it.

Chas
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    Absolutely

    The United States is targeted because we are (correctly) perceived as an influential mark, not an "easy" one. Haven't been perceived thus since 1776!

    As far as GWB goes, the American people were eager for some sort of retribution for 9/11. Had he done nothing, and had the terrorists struck again, he'd have been labeled an idiot for that as well.

    It has been an eventful couple of years for politics & scandal, but if I try a bit, I can remember that very soon after 9/11, it was announced that the organization responsible was one known to have its headquarters in Afghanistan, which we quickly invaded, interrupting that nation's official support of al Q. A bit later, I was surprised to learn that the noisy but thoroughly defeated tyrant in Iraq had managed, despite frequent UN & US inspections, to re-arm itmself with enough chemical and/or biological weaponry to constitute a "clear and present danger". As it turns out, I should have been even more surprised by this "news" than I was, as it was merely an insubstantial suspicion based on a very questionable "informant" nicknamed curveball for known history of providing disinformation & misinformation.

    I, too, thought Jimmy's kicking W when he's down was beneath a man who, in most of his post-presidential life, has been a class act.

    If GWB is half the cowboy he plays on TV, he can withstand a tongue-lashing from an octogenarian!

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    deepsand

    Have you any idea how hard that is to do?

    Way to go!

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    Tig2

    But he did what he thought was the right thing. Right or wrong. And where were you? I was watching and watching for the right answer- I sure as **** didn't know what it was. Have you had to make presidential level decisions? I haven't. I can opine with the best though.

    GWB is allowing PEOPLE to be RFID chipped.

    He was a lovable moron until this.

    Now he is just a sh*t.

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    Tig2

    That James Carter was repeatedly asked his OPINION and several times refused to give it. He finally allowed that he felt that the current administration was "the worst in history". And apologised for his statement, even though he was stating his opinion, that he is entitled to have.

    Mr. Carter has already been reamed for having an opinion. Can we get over it now?

    The Bush administration wants to RFID PEOPLE. You want to complain about some heartfelt remarks from a decent man?

    I don't get this world.

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    AV .

    I can't name any President that hasn't made mistakes in wartime, but I have to say that GWB's arrogance and misplaced loyalty has hurt this country.

    He has taken the right steps lately in replacing Rumsfield (too bad he didn't do it before the election) with Robert Gates and calling in General Petraous. He can redeem himself if he follows their lead. As much as he didn't want to, he is also following the advice of the Iraq Study Group. Those are signs of hope to me that we have the right people in place and are using new strategies other than "stay the course".

    That all important September date for General Petraous' report is going to be a real test for GWB. Maybe it will be good, but if it isn't, its going to be very bad for him.

    AV

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    deepsand

    & **** bubbles.

    And, I think that you meant to refer to my jaundiced eye rather than my cynicism.

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    maxwell edison

    I'll concede that, in this case, the line defining pre-emptive war is a bit fuzzy (at least to some people, but not to me); but I'll not concede that it's a clear-cut reality. President Traitor ... I mean President Carter wrote, "We now have endorsed the concept of pre-emptive war where we go to war with another nation militarily, even though our own security is not directly threatened."

    Define directly. Moreover, what about in cases of our national security being indirectly threatened? Nonetheless, I don't see this as a pre-emptive war.

    First of all, let's establish the premise for defining this war, when it war began, who fired the first shot, so to speak, who supported them, and determine the ideological differences that led up to it? To the people who believe that this war started with the events that unfolded on September 11, 2001, you're just wrong -- dead wrong. And to the people who believe this war is only against the limited faction of people who perpetrated the attacks on September 11, 2001, you're wrong again -- seriously wrong.

    War was declared on the United States by __________ , on or about __________ , it was supported or encouraged by __________ , and can be clearly seen by considering the attacks waged against the United States, its allies, and/or its interests perpetrated on and/or against __________ and ____________ and __________ and __________ and __________ and __________ and __________ .......

    Let's illustrate my position with an analogy. If today, the United States unilaterally and without provocation launched an attack on North Korea, I would consider that a pre-emptive action. However, if a person is honest and accurate in defining the premise as I outlined above, and by honestly and accurately filling in the blanks above, then any war waged against ANY middle-eastern Islamic state that either supports or encourages the actions as stated above, or fails to stop its citizens from engaging in the actions as stated above, is not pre-emptive and is wholly justified.

    Go ahead, be totally honest and accurate and fill-in the blanks. (Some blanks might have multiple entries). If you do, not only will you clearly see that this is not a pre-emptive war, but a response to war being waged against us -- AND we were extremely late in both recognizing it and responding with appropriate force to deal with it. It could even be strongly argued that this war actually began on November 4, 1979, and the sitting president at the time failed to recognize and/or respond appropriately, and every president that followed, with the lone exception of President GW Bush, continued to sweep it aside as just a nagging little problem that would go away if ignored long enough. It's time we recognize and define what this war really is, against whom it's being waged, and stop ignoring it.

    No, Absolutely, President Carter was not right -- he was not right in 1979, and he was not right in his false assertions of today.

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    Absolutely

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKN1924898920070519?pageNumber=2

    The White House declined to comment on his statements, but the Republican National Committee struck back at Carter.

    "Most Americans will probably take his criticisms with a grain of salt considering he also challenged Ronald Reagan's strategy for the Cold War, and history has since proven him wrong," said RNC spokeswoman Amber Wilkerson.


    Actually, I'll take his criticisms fairly seriously, considering an article he wrote, published by the New York Times March 9, 2003:

    http://ecumene.org/carter.htm

    The attackers must have legitimate authority sanctioned by the society they profess to represent. The unanimous vote of approval in the Security Council to eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction can still be honored, but our announced goals are now to achieve regime change and to establish a Pax Americana in the region, perhaps occupying the ethnically divided country for as long as a decade. For these objectives, we do not have international authority. Other members of the Security Council have so far resisted the enormous economic and political influence that is being exerted from Washington, and we are faced with the possibility of either a failure to get the necessary votes or else a veto from Russia, France and China. Although Turkey may still be enticed into helping us by enormous financial rewards and partial future control of the Kurds and oil in northern Iraq, its democratic Parliament has at least added its voice to the worldwide expressions of concern.

    The peace it establishes must be a clear improvement over what exists. Although there are visions of peace and democracy in Iraq, it is quite possible that the aftermath of a military invasion will destabilize the region and prompt terrorists to further jeopardize our security at home. Also, by defying overwhelming world opposition, the United States will undermine the United Nations as a viable institution for world peace.

    What about America's world standing if we don't go to war after such a great deployment of military forces in the region? The heartfelt sympathy and friendship offered to America after the 9/11 attacks, even from formerly antagonistic regimes, has been largely dissipated; increasingly unilateral and domineering policies have brought international trust in our country to its lowest level in memory. American stature will surely decline further if we launch a war in clear defiance of the United Nations. But to use the presence and threat of our military power to force Iraq's compliance with all United Nations resolutions ? with war as a final option ? will enhance our status as a champion of peace and justice.


    I was planning to be a lot more critical of Carter, to the effect that I would take him more seriously if he had said that in 2003. It turns out that he thought it was a bad idea then for many of the same reasons. Maybe "worst in history" was in bad taste, but still, we can't say Carter is "just" being opportunistic because he has said the same thing from the beginning.

    http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,,21762942-5001028,00.html

    In the newspaper interview, Mr Carter said Mr Bush had taken a "radical departure from all previous administration policies" with the Iraq war.

    "We now have endorsed the concept of pre-emptive war where we go to war with another nation militarily, even though our own security is not directly threatened, if we want to change the regime there or if we fear that some time in the future our security might be endangered," Mr Carter said.


    That's an important point, and Carter was right to make it. Refraining from pre-emptive war is an important principle among civilized nations, and how we treated that principle when we invaded Iraq deserves consideration in its own right.

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    Absolutely

    a fact that the same Founders also knew well.

    To the question of the Iraqi people's qualifications to be self-governing:

    Necessity is the mother of invention, and she is exceptionally fertile. Like any people, we can expect them to do what they must, within the parameters of possibility. Enough of your cynicism.

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    AV .

    I think hands-down, GWB wins the worst record prize on foreign policy. He has ruined this country's reputation around the world. GWB's arrogance and lack of diplomat skills are two reasons (but not all). His VP Cheney just adds to the mix to make this dynamic duo the worst team in history.

    I remember Carter's Presidency. I would describe it as mediocre at best. The Iran Hostage crisis pales in comparison to where we are today. I'm not totally surprised that Carter is so vocal. He is a devout, moral Christian man on a mission to spread the word of peace and morality through his writings. I think Carter is not usually so critical, but in this case there is no way to sugar-coat the truth.

    AV

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    maxwell edison

    One could argue -- and many have -- that it was President Carter's policies of pacification and "negotiation" that actually opened the door for radical Islam to rise in the middle-east. President Carter was the first president to ?negotiate with terrorists?, and his debacle in the desert (a Time Magazine Cover story) gave them the impression that America was a ?paper tiger?. And as the United States is often blamed for empowering terrorist factions in Afghanistan -- including Osama bin Laden -- to fend-off an invading Soviet Army, let?s remember that it was started on President Carter's watch.

    Personally speaking, I believe President Carter was the worst president in history. And I have the benefit of hindsight to evaluate his administration and the outcome of his policies, while he does not have such a benefit in evaluating President Bush. President Carter?s middle-east policies have, for the most part, been the standard mode of operation in dealings with the middle-east from 1977 through 2001. President Bush reversed course on proven failed policies ? ones started by President Carter ? so it doesn?t surprise me that President Carter would disagree with them. After all, to agree with President Bush would be for President Carter to admit his own failure.

    The last twenty five years (before 2001), have proven President Carter?s policies a failure ? ones that embarrassed the USA on the world stage beginning with the Iranian hostage crisis in 1979, all the way up to September 2001. Moreover, President Carter?s Iranian and middle-east policies started in motion what Alireza Jafarzadeh now calls, The Iran Threat: President Ahmadinejad and the Coming Nuclear Crisis. (Do an Internet search for some interesting reading; or better yet, read the book.)

    Let?s give President Bush?s policies twenty five years to develop, and then we?ll be in a better position to determine whose policies were a failure and whose might have been successful ? or a third option, which was the worst failure.

    Chas and I probably disagree on a lot of things, but we probably do agree that President Carter?s open criticism of a sitting administration is disgusting. I used to admire President Carter (even though I disagreed with his policies); today, he nothing but a sad and bitter old man.

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    AV .

    Everything you say about President Carter is true, but we can't blame him for where we are today. Maybe from 1977 to 2001 his policies were in place, but GWB chose to change direction resulting in our current debacle.

    GWB was arrogant and ill prepared for the long term fight and nation building that would be involved in Iraq. Personally, I don't think there is any way to really win in Iraq. Its up to the Iraqis and not us. Its not our country.

    I resent GWB for sinking this country into a quagmire far worse than Vietnam. Maybe I won't live 25 years to see what happens, but so far all I can see is lots of people dying on a daily basis.

    I think we never should have gotten involved in Iraq in the first place. They were not an imminent threat to this country. GWB strayed from the war on terror into removing Saddam and here we are.

    I think its out of character for President Carter to dis President Bush, but Bush and his administration are so pathetic, I can understand why.

    AV

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    deepsand

    1) GWB has [n]no foreign policy.

    2) Quite out of character for Carter, but probably owing to extreme frustration finally getting the better of him.

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    maxwell edison

    Your sentiment is really pretty simplistic. If you think such events as 9-11 happen overnight, you're quite mistaken. It's the end result of years (or decades) of events -- it was set into motion years before GWB even considered running for president. And it's obvious that your understanding of the current situation and my understanding is as different as night and day. As such, there's really no point in going back and forth on it.

    I will say this, however. Generally speaking, foreign policy is a culmination of the decisions and actions of several past administrations AND the ongoing policies and actions of the bureaucratic lifers in the State Department, the CIA, and any number of other non-elected departments. Do you think life-long bureaucrats in the State Department just automatically shift gears at the drop of a hat whenever there's a change of administration? No way. Events and actions are set into place and might take years to initiate meaningful change. President Bush inherited a foreign policy base from President Clinton, who inherited it from President GHW Bush, who inherited it from President Reagan, who inherited it from President Carter..... and on it goes.

    And I can say without any doubt, the current status of Iran (America's REAL enemy in this fight) is more related to President Carter than it is to President Bush. President Carter lost Iran in 1978, he capitulated to the radical Islamic clerics who took over the country -- ones who have supported terrorism ever since -- and it's pretty much been left to its own devices ever since. It's closer to truth than not that President Bush inherited the foreign policy position concerning Iran from the Carter administration. And now they're (Iran) on the verge of acquiring nuclear weapons. Well done, Jimmy!

    Your head's in the sand if you don't believe that radical Islam is the most dangerous enemy this nation has ever faced. And I support President Bush 100 percent in an about-face in the failed foreign policy decisions of the past thirty five years. You're also extremely misinformed if you don't know that President Bush has maintained from the beginning that this fight would not be quickly settled, but will linger on for decades.

    Iran is a mess started by President Carter, and his status quo has been maintained ever since. And even though it's not known publicly, I'm certain that a major reason to invade Iraq was to have a huge army on Iran's doorsteps. There's a **** of a lot more going on behind the scenes than you or I will ever know, at least for a long time, ans we need to be in a position to deal with Iran.

    You should really read that book I mentioned. This is a more serious than you realize. (And President Bush is indeed left to clean up the mess started by President Carter.)

    The Iran Threat: President Ahmadinejad and the Coming Nuclear Crisis by Alireza Jafarzadeh

    http://www.alirezajafarzadeh.org/

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    AV .

    GWB acted on it with little support from our allies and too few troops to do the job. Poor planning. GWB painted rosy pictures of the progress for years. He was so arrogant, he thought it would be a cakewalk.

    His "Axis of Evil" comments were not helpful. Neither was "Bring it on" or blowing up the MOAB (Mother of all bombs) in Florida as a show of force to Saddam. His loyalty to people like Donald Rumsfield was to his detriment. GWB was obstinant and unwilling to change course when we should have years ago. We never had enough troops to do the job.

    I agree with you about Iran. They are our true enemy and are the reason we are not successful in Iraq. They fuel the insurgency, Hezbollah and Hamas. They have ties now to Hugo Chavez. Where are we at today? Iraq has drained our resources. Our troops are over-extended and our equipment is spent.

    I'm not sure that I can blame Carter for our current situation with Iran. I haven't read the book your mentioned, but I will look at it. I know Iran is our greatest threat, but we need a more diplomatic and smarter approach in dealing with them. GWB is not up to the task.

    AV

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    deepsand

    Hezbollah is a Shia organization, birthed by Iran, whereas Hamas is Sunni; the two are staunch rivals.

    It was this rivalry which led to the bombardment of northen Israel by Hezbollah, in response to the perception that, via its gains in Gaza, Hamas had regained the greater prominence in the Muslim world.

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    AV .

    http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=21223

    I hesitated to mention them but I still can't rule it out.

    AV

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    deepsand

    engage in "one-up-manship" & posturing for the benefit of the rest of the Muslim world. To put this in context, recall that Iran publicly denounced the 9/11 attacks, not for love of the U.S., but because of their perception that, in the eyes of the Muslim world, their position as being at the vanguard of Muslim activism has been usurped by a group of Sunni upstarts.

    In short, Iran will do & say anything to regain and/or maintain their position in the Muslim world.

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    maxwell edison

    The Democrats in Washington (with one lone exception), and a handful of Republicans as well, fall into one of two categories: they're either teetering on the edge of treason, putting political expediency above national defense, using the war against radical Islam as a pawn in their own war against President Bush; or they're extremely stupid and naive', only pandering to perceived public opinion, or public ignorance (thanks in large part to a national media ****-bent against President Bush), and motivated ONLY to get reelected; or maybe a little bit of both.

    The Democrats (and their accomplices in the national media) have created a false sense of what President Bush has been saying from the outset of this war, and they've been as much an enemy as the radical Islamic terrorists have been. Defeating President Bush, in their eyes, trumps absolutely everything else.

    You have failed miserably, AV, to put politics aside (and I don't necessarily mean only Democrat versus Republican politics); you've failed to see through the politics being intentionally played-out right in front of you; you've bought into the silly and false assertions about President Bush that have somehow become perceived as reality; you've failed to see through the political games being played -- the players being the politicians themselves, of course, the national news media, and the political pundits who make their living talking issues, debating issues, creating controversy, and so on; and you've failed to consider the real long-term goals the United States really has for dealing with terrorism, our middle-east policy, and our national defense.

    But here's the "news" of which I speak that you should consider. We're not leaving Iraq -- period. And regardless of any public political posturing you see from the treasonous Democrats in Congress, they know we're not leaving -- they absolutely know it. Everything they do is another act in their public show to defeat President Bush. Even if they win the White House in 2008, we're NOT leaving Iraq -- and they know that as well. The next president will not end this war. In fact, the next president might just escalate it. And they also know that a strong military presence in the middle-east will be necessary through the election in 2008, the one in 2012, the one in 2016, and even beyond -- and they absolutely know it.

    This is a very serious war, AV, and I don't believe you realize the seriousness of it. It's not a coincidence that we have Iran literally surrounded. And your mistaken belief that our forces are spread thin and/or we've "drained our resources" is not only silly, but it's nothing but repeating what you've heard by the aforementioned "players" in the political game being played-out on television for your consumption. We have an entire carrier battle group just cruising back and forth in the Persian Gulf, doing nothing but just sitting and waiting -- waiting for next step in this war, which, most likely, paints a huge target on Tehran.

    But you're not alone, AV. A lot of people are watching the same show you are, and you're all getting sucked into it so much that very few people are focused on (or even realize) the long-term goals the United States put into place on September 12, 2001. Just like President Bush maintained in 2001, the war that was started on his watch, will be ended on someone else's. And it better end on our terms with the defeat of radical Islam. Anything less should be (and will be) unacceptable.