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  • #2166658

    slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

    Locked

    by oz_media ·

    The expected mass hysteria of WalMart having a sale, a young guy was killed; that’s right, trampled to DEATH by losers trying to save a dollar on low quality chinese import sh1t at Wally World.

    Okay, they tore the doors off the store, trampled an overnight stock clerk to death, trmapled another who managed to free himself and even knocked a pregnant women to teh ground causing her to miscarry her unborn child.

    SICK f’in freakshow!! What’s with people today? and worst of all NOBODY stopped to help!

    WHat a great day Thanksgiving will be for the dead young man and pregnant women will be from now on. It is absolutely disgustign taht ANYOEN could act that way in public, showing absolutely NO consideration, manners, or a care in the world for human lives all for a SALE!

    It’s not like they were giving away freedom, its not like they wer handing out free cars or homes, this is plastic, knock-off sh1t at WalMart for Christ’s sake!

    I don’t know how anyone can stand sharig a country with such losers, that must be the absolute epitomy of the bottom of society, people bumming change on the street have far mroe class and human decency than that.

    Just absolutely amazed at how ignorant and useless society can be and, in this case, from what is supposed to be the mightiest nation on Earth?

    O.M.G!

    http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2008/11/28/news/doc493037c59f5bd868505197.txt

    The part that really blows my mind is this comment:
    [i]”The industry?s largest retail group said [b]the incident was rare.[/b]

    “We are not aware of any other circumstances [b]where a retail employee has died working on the day after Thanksgiving,”[/b] said Ellen Davis, a spokeswoman at National Retail Federation.[/i]

    Okay it’s rare, but the best she can do is say its teh first time someone has died this way THE DAY AFTER THANKSGIVING?? How about EVER?

    Does she mean to say that its quite expected on Boxinig Day, on Halloween they usually lose 10 but the day after Thanksgiving, now THAT is rare!

    What a horrible death, trampled.

    I would like ot see them start NAILING people for it, use teh instore camera, FIRST guy to knock him down is charged with life with no parole; sure he was pushed, somebody has to pay. Perhaps they would finally start to get some class and act like human beings, superior to the rest of the animals on Earth.

    Sorry, but this makes me sick to death of people in general to think that ANYONE would be so low on the food chain as to participate in something like that is simply an embarassment to mankind as a whole .

    In Canada, not to suggest we are better but it is a better solution, Boxing day is now Boxing week (as I know it is in much of the USA too), this stops the mad rush and one day easy theft spree for all shoplifters.

    When they do have door crasher sales, they are nowhere NEAR as unruly as that though, people do push and squirm to the front right before the doors open but most just push them back and give them that ‘go get some class’ look.
    It is nowhere near this kind of a circus.

    People neeed to learn better manners, have some class and respect for others etc. But if they are simply taught its all for one and one for all then it will never work as society gets denser and denser. Crime, drugs etc. its all a result of people feeling a fight or flight urgency in life.

    To make a real stretch, and I know most of you will hate me for it but most of you hate me ayway for not thinking like you; this is probably, if not directly, related to that whole US mindset that makes people not want to help others (welfare etc.) as you are taught to not let someone else have what you earned, to not let others get more than you and to always come out on top; survival of the fittest.

    Its great motivational BS but it also instills a mindset of not giving a damn about anyone but yourself.

    i still can’t get my head around how the US is deemed teh mightiest nation on Earth. Weak economy, reliant on the rest of the world for even the most rudimentary daily functions (yet claiming to be independent), always at war with someone over something, low educational levels, reliant on teh reat of the world to invent everything, etc., etc., etc. the list goes on and on. Its like watching zulu’s in Africa….with money and weapons otehr than spears.

    the part that really gets me, sorry rant almost through now, is that I doubt ANYONE will learn or change ANYTHYING over this, “Very rare incident…..for the day after Thanksgiving” anyway.

    Will WalMart change the way they open stores for such sales? How about like a concert, allow the first 100 people to line up inside a barricade, with third party, professional security containing it. give them wrist bands and only THEY get in for teh first 20 minutes, then more allowed in and so on.

    You don’t have that wrist band, you can’t enter the store, go through the checkout etc.

    If you are someone who pushed in front of that first 100 people, you are SOL.

    It also opens up opportunity for teh first 100, as we’ve seen here for Boxing Day sales. The first few get in and buy the door crashers (hey, they WERE there first) they then go to the line poutside and resell what they don’t want. People in line get a decent deal, no more lineup and the ones at the front end up keeping the one or two items they really wanted, for free.

    man, this is just sick though, how animals behave when uncaged.

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    • #2975566

      The above

      by boxfiddler ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      is why I hide in the basement on Black Friday.

      To quote someone I know: “People are my least favorite species.” At least once a year.

      edit: The death of Christmas spirit in the public marketplace is mourned by me.

      • #2975559

        Thanks

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to The above

        I expected a bit of the ‘Oz is US bashing again’ type of anti-Oz reply as usual.

        This type of mass hysteria happens anywhere, however we usually see it from less developed countires when they hand out bread and water to the weak and needy.

        I showed the article to a few other folks that came in the office today and I have to say the sentiment was the same. “What’s with ‘those’ people?”

        Its always one step forward and two steps back with such a dense society I suppose.

        Best to just stay home, cuddle under the blankets and watch some cheezy daytime crap you don’t have to sit through on a normal day of work, kinda like that 34 year old kid and pregnant woman should have done.

        Fk WalMart and door crasher sales, it isn’t worth it on the best of days.

        Cheers,
        OM

        • #2975555

          I didn’t read it as US bashing

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to Thanks

          Okay- you used a few generalities. I’m over that. I think
          that you were more commenting about the inhumanity of the
          situation. I can’t say that you were wrong on that score. The
          whole thing is tragic.

        • #2975551

          I did read it as US bashing

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to I didn’t read it as US bashing

          Oz never misses an opportunity.

        • #2975511

          They do slip by

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I did read it as US bashing

          form time to time one gets through teh cracks, but hey I haven’t been on Bushs butt much lately; then again, I think that playing his Nintendo GameBoy while Obama goes through the files and tries to see how he can sort out the country’s problems is okay for him nowdays anyway.

          BUUUUUUSH BAAAAAAASH!!!

          I’m gonna miss him though, somehow I think that Obama wont be nearly as easy a mark as having a really incompetent idiot at the helm. Like him or not, Obama at least appears to be clever, even if its just a game; he’s a lot better at it than Bush was.

        • #2975542

          Here is some of the typical response…

          by keighlar ·

          In reply to Thanks

          Oz, while I agree whole-heartedly with your lamentation over the despicable behavior of those people, and while I share in your frustration at the inability of people to comprehend basic human responsibility, I have to take huge issue with you in regard to your assessment of both America and Americans. Truth be told, I am not so happy with my country. I am frustrated with it and its people. I cannot understand the inability other?s have to see truths which appear to be so clear.

          I have ?lurked? here long enough to know that you and I are going to fall on the opposite side of every political and social coin. What I take most ire at is your assertion that America and Americans are selfish ? that opposing welfare is selfishness. It proves that (1) you do not understand selfishness, and (2) that you know nothing about the welfare system in this country.

          (1) How is it selfish to want to make your own decision on how your money is spent and to whom it is given? Welfare is the government telling me that I am not smart enough, capable enough or compassionate enough to decide how the money I work for is spent. The all-powerful, all-knowing government knows who needs my assistance and is more capable of distributing those ?funds? than I. That belittles and insults me.

          Is there no possibility in your thinking that compassion exists by the 1000-folds here in America, but that it is stomped out by the greedy, grasping redistributing hands of the government? By the time they are done, we barely have enough to sustain our own families, let alone sustain others.

          And yet, given this environment of ridiculous taxation, America still gives generously of itself.

          See one source: http://oldfraser.lexi.net/publications/forum/1999/06/04_charitable_donations.html

          Excerpt: (I understand these figures are from 1996, but the pattern remains.)

          Charitable contributions: A US-Canada comparison

          Canada, in general, maintains higher marginal tax rates than the United States. For instance, in 1996, the top federal marginal tax rate in Canada was 29 percent (plus a 3 and 5 percent surtax)3 and was effective at $59,181.4 The top combined marginal tax rate – provincial income taxes are levied on top of the federal rate – in 1996, for individuals earning $75,000 or more in British Columbia, for example, was 51 percent.5
          The United States, on the other hand, maintained a top marginal tax rate of 40 percent in 1996, but at a threshold income of US$271,000. If we assume that the traditional theory of charitable giving holds, we would expect to observe higher levels of charitable giving in Canada than in the US.

          Americans contribute in excess of $125 billion annually to charity,6 or roughly US$1,017 on average.7 Canadians, meanwhile, donate roughly $4 billion, or Cdn $738 on average, significantly less than their southern neighbours. This basic comparison casts doubt on the applicability of the traditional theory of charitable giving.


          (2) Do you have any idea how inept and riddled with fraud the American welfare system is? Do I believe in welfare? No. Do I believe that there are much more viable alternatives that must be considered? Yes. The second the government (ours and any other country?s) gets involved, money is spent unwisely, committees are formed needlessly, and the entire project is in general botched up!

          There are so many other ?points? that you make here that I could take to task one-by-one, but I don?t have the time or desire to engage you in an endless, pointless debate. Besides, Maxwell keeps you on your toes enough for me. It is amazing to me that you are obviously an intelligent and thoughtful person, and yet you so often come to incorrect conclusions. Americans as a whole are generous, compassionate people who do not wish to be subjugated, but to live fully in the hard-fought freedom given our generation.

        • #2975540

          “If it ain’t broke

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to Here is some of the typical response…

          fix it ’til it is.”
          A bumper sticker I’m particularly fond of. Government attitude in a nutshell.

        • #2975506

          I don’t disagree

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Here is some of the typical response…

          I know and fully agree that wlefare is an abused and misused system, but they all are.

          There’s one thing about scammers, they will beat ANY system, ANYWHERE. Always have and always will, that’s just what they do.

          By taking support form them, you are in turn takign support from others who deserve, have earned and need the help of their fellowman.

          DEsERVE, EARN? Yes some people need support, they woked hard and have fallen on hard times, they have both earned and deserve a hand from ‘the people’ seeing as i have been told many times that THE PEOPLE IS the US government, then the government should have teh ability to act on your behalf in such cases.

          If th government didn’t dole it out on welfare, you wouldn’ tsee a penny more in your pocket anyway, they just alocate it to something else THEY deem worthy.

          When you live in a ocuntry, especially one with such great opportunities for citizens, you pay taxes, unaviodable. Where those taxes go, also unavoidable.

          So we WILL pay taxes and no matter how much or how little they give to welfare support, which for the MAJORITY of recipients is needed, you will see no additional benefit to yourself. If you think fo rone second that doing away with wlefare puts more money in yoru pocket, less taxes, you are sadly mistaken, governments DON’T give back yoru money, they just spend it somewhere else that most will contest and complain about.

          The stats as ot donations are entirely irrelevant, at no tie did I say that Canadians were more generous.
          Where you will find we are more generous though would be seeing and understanding the need for medical for every Canadian and welfare for those in need.

          We don’t make as many personal donations for the benefit of tax write offs? So what?

          As for incorrect conclusions, that is relative to who you are speakign to, I could do the same with yoru post too, yet as you noted it’s just not worth it nor am I interested in going down that path for a week or two.

          “Americans as a whole are generous, compassionate people who do not wish to be subjugated, but to live fully in the hard-fought freedom given our generation.”

          perhaps you should keep an eye on your freedoms which are removed as soon as teh government decides it needs to remove them. They are merely assumed privileges, not freedoms. ANY American citizen had the same freedoms in 1942 that you have today, yet as it was deemed fit for eth government, they rounded up Chinese AMERICANS many born and raised there, and stuck them in camps. They took their houses, they split up their families and treated them as the enemy.

          We did it too in Canada, and I don’ tcontest that nbut I at least recognize it. Where were the FREEDOMS then?

          Is there a time, in yoru mind, where your freedoms can be simply stripped from you because the government thinks it should remove them?

          there are countless such cases in all FREE countries, yeah America’s not the only one, sorry bout that.

          “Americans as a whole are generous, compassionate people who do not wish to be subjugated, but to live fully in the hard-fought freedom given our generation.”

          Hard fought freedom taht can be taken away form a hard working American in a whim.

          Compassionate people, who don’t believe in welfare to support people (no, you don’t know everyone and many would go unhelped if it was a personal system) and trample fellow Americans on their way to a store. Compassionate people who think that their allies are either on their side or against them. Compassionate people who rely on teh world for each and every breath they take, and yet spit on other nations that provide them with their lovely lives.

          sure, you got me fooled alright. Anyway, time to blow this popsickle stand, talk to you some other time and I do appreciate your approach and honesty with your reply.

        • #2975262

          Americans Are Stingy Givers

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Here is some of the typical response…

          Of course from the raw numbers, it looks like the US gives a lot of money to charity when you look at raw dollars given. The US has the highest total personal income of any country.

          However, if you look at percentage of wealth versus charitable contributions, or percentage of GNP versus contributions, the US becomes a low end giver.

          Even when the people in the US give generously, their gifts have strings attached.

          All you need to do is look at how we respond to events like hurricanes to see how stingy we are. While the Red Cross and Salvation Army ask for money to fund the relief efforts, the US people go to their closets and clear out the clothes they don’t want anymore. Or, they go down to the local store and buy the supplies they think the charities should hand out to those in need.

          Another factor to take into account is that most of the large charitable donations in the US total are from corporate and individual foundations. Foundations set up to distribute money to avoid or reduce taxation.

          As to replacing public assistance with local or individual charity, there are many problems with that concept. Not the least of which is that the person who can tell the best story of woe is more apt to get assistance than the one in the most need.

          I am sorry, but from where this American sets, the US people are very stingy givers.

          Chas

        • #2977527

          On the other hand

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Americans Are Stingy Givers

          [i]As to replacing public assistance with local or individual charity, there are many problems with that concept. Not the least of which is that the person who can tell the best story of woe is more apt to get assistance than the one in the most need.[/i]

          Locals are more likely to know if one of theirs is honestly in need or spinning a yarn. They are also more likely to know what kind of, and how much, help someone really needs. One of the dumbest things our government does is to send SSI checks to alcoholics and drug addicts. What do you think they’re going to do with the money?

        • #2977385

          The flaw there

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to On the other hand

          Mroe affluent neighbourhoods, will quickly pick up a fallen neighbour, knowing them and probablhy knowing before the person actually hits rock bottom.

          Those is poor neighbourhoods, who supports THEM?

          It perpetuates the differences in class and allows those in the most dire situations to go unnoticed an unhelped.

        • #2977366

          I wouldn’t know…

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          never having lived in an “affluent neighborhood”.

          [i]It perpetuates the differences in class and allows those in the most dire situations to go unnoticed an unhelped. [/i]

          So what? There are different classes for a REASON. If you have what it takes to survive, you will. If you have what it takes to thrive, you will. If you have someone [b]willing[/b] to let you tag along, you will. Otherwise, tough noogies! I did not cause you to exist, and your existence creates no obligation on me.

        • #2977288

          If you had the power…

          by puppybreath ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          How would you resolve the differences in class?

        • #2977266

          It’s not resolvable

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          It would require forcing to the lowest common denominator. But even then you’ll have those being forced, and those doing the forcing.

        • #2977839

          TonytheTiger – Surely you’re not suggesting

          by puppybreath ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          that OZ would be critical of the US for a problem with no solution?

          I think we can safely assume that he has already come up with the solution, which explains why he is so upset. If he can figure it out, why can’t our government?

          I want to get his input on the proper way to proceed so that I can forward it on to the proper authorities.

        • #2975601

          Speaks volumes Tony

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          In other words, if my fellow Americans fall on gard times, fk em, that’s their problem.

          Ever thought about Nazi Germany Perhaps a mroe suitable mentality for you that America.

          You see strength in self preservation and personal accomplishment but not in unity and helping your fellowman, and yet you are said to live in the UNITED states, now there’s some hypocrisy for you!

          Its not just you though, I can’t tell you how obvious that selfish mentality is to others.

          Having just got back from Washington this morning, I am still adjusting to humans again and a bit slack jawed at the spectacle you call a powerful nation. Man, what a fast, downhill slide you’ve taken.

        • #2975598

          PB – Irrelevant

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          Firstly, dont be such a self centered twOt. It is not only about America, other nations that accept welfare as a necessary evil also demonstrate greater awareness and empathy for their fellowman, foreigners and immigrants. This makes ANY nation stromger and more socially developed.

          I have no issue understanding classes, I’m from Europe, you haven’t even seen real class separation in America yet, just the rich vs the poor.

          I understand classes and the adjacent pecking order much better than anyone that’s never have left in North America would.

          But to leave the fallen to fester is simply a selfish, VERY ignorant and unproductive way of moving society forward as a whole.

        • #2976709

          Wow, OZ

          by puppybreath ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          Talk about someone who’s a self centered twOt. You sure like to brag about all of your worldly experience, don’t you? I hate to be the one to break it to you, but a filled passport doesn’t make you an expert on world affairs. But if you believe it does, let’s compare passports and see who’s traveled more.

          The issue isn’t about giving help to the poor. It’s about giving to those who are capable but using the system to live on handouts rather than getting work and improving their lot.

          I’ll give the shirt off of my back for someone who is truely in need, but I refuse to give a penny to some lazy bum who would rather get by on handouts than have to work for a living. I understand the difference; you apparently don’t or won’t.

        • #2976664

          Not at all, Oz

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          [i]In other words, if my fellow Americans fall on gard times, fk em, that’s their problem.[/i]

          I am there for my fellow American far more than the taxes I pay would seem to indicate… not because THEY have the right… but because I do! If you’re not, it says volumes more about YOU than it does about me.

        • #2976660

          Right PB

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          There’s little worse than seeing someone claiming they are cold and hungry getting money and that night a plasma TV is installed in their apartment, except maybe the utter stupidity of giving cash to a drug addict or alcoholic.

        • #2976595

          PB – You think so huh?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          “I have no issue understanding classes, I’m from Europe, you haven’t even seen real class separation in America yet, just the rich vs the poor.”

          This is what you suggest is me liking to brag about having been all over the world?

          Are you America? What an ego THAT must take?

          I have pretty much travelled around the world a couple of times but that’s has nothing to do with anything I said in my post to you, neither does your passport.

          And with you proudly boasting to have been to more places than I, which is irrelevant (like your last comment), you should have a greater awareness that the rest of the world functions just as well while still incorporating what you would deem socialism that steals money from those who earn it and gives it to unworthy citizens all the time. the citizens in general are happy with thei rgovernments and they live in prosperous nations that afford them with their happy lives, which is apparently impossible in the US as they keep giving your money away WITHOUT EVEN ASKING YOU!!
          The NERVE of them! They should ONLY provide YOU with what YOU need to be safe, to protect YOUR rights and care about YOU, not the other ‘kin Americans that live down the street, what kind of democracy is THAT!?!?
          You don’t even get so much as a tax certificate for all those donations! What kind of country are you living in????

          You have never said anything here of any interest to me, your inherent personal prejdudice removes your ability to offer andy comments other than defensive emotion anyway.

          Have fun with that, perhaps have a little argument between your dolls or something, you can even dress one as the devil wearing Fidel Castro’s uniform and call him Oz as you stick him with pins, whatever floats your boat.

          To think you have extensively travelled to all corners of the world and still don’t see that people in Australia, Austria, France, Germany, England etc. are happier and more content with their lives than most Americans, would be like saying you went to the bathroom but didn’t notice the toilet.

          You eithre make up other stories so that you can accept the fact that others are generally happier than Americans or you fail to recognize or acknowledge that their systems, while flawed as all are, are accepted as s way of helping up their neighbours and people accept the need to help those less fortunate, even if it means some people are screwing the system as a result.

        • #2976591

          Right Tony

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          “If you’re not, it says volumes more about YOU than it does about me. ”

          Tony, you cant make stuff up AND accuse people of it too.
          At what time, no…in what thread, no…on what WEBSITE have I EVER said that I don’t help out others or support my neighours?

          I haven’t, so take that little tirade and cram it arseward.

          Yeah, the government steals from me every chance they get, and its not just welfate, and that is something I accept and ignore as I still get the benefits and joy of living in Canada; the world’s most desired, and full-on recreational playground is right in my backyard. People plan and save for years to come and spend a week or two here, should have seen hwo many Washington plates were returngin to eth US Sunday morning after opening weekend for most of the mountains.

          But they (the government and my tax money) offer me protection, security and emergency service. One catch with that though is that the government likes to help out those who have fallen on hard times, as do I, so I accept the fact that taxes go to others, without my permisison, and that’s life and part of the cost of living in a free and desireable nation.

          It doesn’t HURT me in any way, it doesn’t leave me poor, I don’t lose out in any way. I still live the life I choose to live, where I choose to live it, that’s pretty nice when you look at the many countires that don’t share such happiness and freedoms, like Iraq, America and Africa, where the people constantly complain of an unjus government and lack of freedoms.

          I assume that you know very well that if you DIDN’T have a portion of your tax money going got welfare that you would nto see a single dime mroe on yoru paychek, and that the government would simply allocate your tax money to something/someone else for another reason.

        • #2976585

          Tony, re plasma screens

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          YOu are right, there are many epople screwing teh system and no matter WHAT system is created they will screw it, if not they will steal from you and your neighbours instead. In order to see those that NEED help GET help though, I accept the system we have in place because nobody has ever created a foolproof or better system for helping other citizens in need.

          And no, while you may have idea that keeps more money in your pocket, you certainly don’t have a better solution that covers all aspects of such needed support.

        • #2974904

          OZ….

          by puppybreath ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          Naturally, you have sources that can back up the claim:

          “To think you have extensively travelled to all corners of the world and still don’t see that people in Australia, Austria, France, Germany, England etc. are happier and more content with their lives than most Americans”

          Or is that just your opinion from personal experience and not necesarily a fact?

          Why are you so opposed to someone asking for some oversight regarding how tax dollars are spent for helping the poor?

          Throwing money at a problem isn’t always the best solution; just look at the educational system in the US. We spend a fortune and turn out less educated people each year. Yet you seem to think we aren’t giving enough. Sounds like you’re pretty free and easy with money; as long as it belongs to someone else.

        • #2974898

          A quick interjection here about well-fare

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          There is a big difference between Social Welfare and Corporate welfare, hidden welfare and visible welfare. Lumping it all together is much like calling an iceberg an ice cube.
          Visable Social welfare is what most of you are refering too. SSI, SS, Foodstamps, Disability, Mdicaide, Medicare, WIC… these are the bulk of social welfare. Hidden costs being smaller programs aimed and minority (read small population, not non-white)target groups, social workers salaries, focus groups, development costs, etc represent the rest of the social side.
          On the corporate side we have bailouts, tax breaks, paying large commercial farmers to NOT GROW crops, ermm agricultural subsidies… Not really the same ball of wax.
          Arguing over how your tax dollars are spent on Social Welfare is silly. Its such a tiny amount of the total budget as to be the same as an individual buying a candy bar. Really… Perspective…

          [EDIT]
          In my experience, welfare fraud (including medicare/medicaid) etc is much more prevalent on a provider basis then on an individual basis. So, Joe A lies a bit and gets an extra $500 a month. The local Dispersal agency lie sa bit, double bills a bit, and gets an extra $2000000 a month…
          3 counties here had 100% executive replacement and criminal charges pressed, along with a total payback of around 12Million in their Medicaid providers. This was about 9 years ago. I’m still looking for a link to a paper article on the incident.
          Not what I was looking for but along the same lines..
          http://www.islandgazette.net/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3150&Itemid=75

        • #2974871

          What, are you Tony in disguise?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          You are completely lost, mate!

          First of all you say “Naturally, you have sources that can back up the claim:”

          then you even reiterate EXACTLY what I said, which says very clearly that if you had travelled to these places you should have noticed… How is that so easily confused to mean I was stating facts as compared to personal opinion, based on first hand experience?

          How did you EVER get out of grade school with such pi$s poor reading compreshension skills?
          You read something, reiterate it and STILL don’t understand it!?!?!? That simply boggles the mind as it is so blind.

          In fact, I don’t know HOW someone could be confused by such simple verbage and get such an incorrect understanding of what’s been said, and yet still be able to put a spoon to your mouth to feed yourself.

          I said ‘IF YOU HAD TRAVELLED’….this inidcates a personal knowledge due to exposure, that is fact enough if you’ve been there without blinders on, you’d have seen it yourself.

          So apparently, as your passport reads like an atlas, you have been there and would have noticed that people aren’t all standing around, complaining about wlefare reform and the government stealing their money to give it to others. They are some of the kindest and most content people I have met, much more so than in North America as a whole.

          Or are you now saying you haven’t travelled there or HAVE seen that most people in those countries were begging for your to take them home to America with you because their socialist system has failed them and the government steals from them.

          It’s your vast personal knowledge of world affairs that I am seeking, not some website where the ‘facts’ are made up by a disgruntled shut-in.

          [i]”Or is that just your opinion from personal experience and not necesarily a fact?”[/i]

          Yeah, and I didn’t say it was fact, well it IS fact but fact I have derived my opinion from personal experience, unless you can prove otherwise; unless you can prove, with facts or even personal experience that people in those countries ARE complaining about the government redistributing their money.

          What a waste of keystrokes, simply because you can sorta read but have chosen to demonstrate that you cannot comprehend what you have just read.

          [i]”Why are you so opposed to someone asking for some oversight regarding how tax dollars are spent for helping the poor?”[/i]

          I am not, once again the comprehension issue has failed you. This is not a case of someone asking for some oversight and I have not said as much either.

          This is a case of someone constantly complaining that a system has failed and should be disposed of, that the government is stealing money and giving to to someone else without permission.

          Do you sit in a room and have personal arguments with your various personas beore posting here about things that were never said, simply assumed as a result of your private arguments with your ‘self’?

          [i]”Throwing money at a problem isn’t always the best solution;”[/i]

          Once again, show me a statement where I have said otherwise.

          I HAVE said that the current system is in place because we have yet to find somethign better. That if we tighten the requirements more, people HWO do need help will often be wrongly turned away, and those who abuse teh system will STILL do so and get their money, in other words the exact oppostie of what works now.

          Get a clue, learn to comprehend what you read and then post a reply; as for this; you are just typing for the sake of typing, you have no logical basis of argument at all. You have simply created arguments based on false allegations that you created yourself.

          You don’t need anyone to debate a subject with, you can simply argue with yourself without my help. It doesn’t matter WHAT I say, you don’t understand what you are reading anyway and have your own conclusions already made up before you get started.

          Why not just post an entire dialogue between us by yourself and save me the time? You make it up as you go anyway.

          Get some help!

        • #2974859

          I didn’t say you’re not,

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          I said [b]If[/b] you’re not…

          Sorry you couldn’t tell the difference.

          [i]I assume that you know very well that if you DIDN’T have a portion of your tax money going got welfare that you would nto see a single dime mroe on yoru paychek, and that the government would simply allocate your tax money to something/someone else for another reason.[/i]

          Perhaps, but that’s not the way it’s supposed to be in THIS country. It will eventually be righted…

        • #2974852

          That doesn’t matter Dumphrey

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          While completely logical and insightful, it just doesn’t matter.

          When the banks were seeking a bailout due to all those who couldn’t pay of their mortgages, many people here were very supportive that the government should do something before the economy dies completely. 700 Billion, no sweat, its just a number anyway.

          I posted about how a company took a huge chunk of buyout money and spent it on a spa vacation week for executive members, $30,000 spa treatments, the most lavish rooms and servcies etc.
          The government (Americans) owned 81% of their controlling shares at that time, and they spent YOUR money on it. did you get a pedicure for your money at least?

          Most people kinda chuckled and brushed it off as ‘those darn corprate guys at it again’.

          But you suggest that you must help Mrs. Ratshaw on Common street so that she can pay her rent and buy enough cu-a-soup and Ichiban noodles to get through the month, and all hell breaks loose. Eating out consists of a cup of tea (with a seniors discount) as a treat when she goes to the mall to wander around and see what she can’t afford.

          “They are stealing from us, this can’t be so! We should be able to invite Mrs.Ratshaw to our home for dinner instead, I’d put her up and see her through hard times myself, if only the government didn’t force me to help her.”

          Yeah, complete horseh1t, she’d have nothing and nobody would give a toos as long as THEY were okay. If they are NOT okay, they then look to the government to see why not.

          ‘kin uncaring, cold hearted, self absorbed, hyporcites.

        • #2974849

          It will eventually be righted…

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          Suer Tony, you hang onto that belief, you only have what, 40-50 years to go, tops?
          Waste it complaining about the government maybe you’ll make your country a better place for future generations, if you believe THAt horsesh1t anyway.

          As for the rest of us, I think I’m just going to live my life and enjoy it for what I have and teh freedoms and joy of living in a free and prosperous nation.

          The difference, you guy sexpect lower taxes in order to increase income in your pockets.

          I just find a better job to fill in teh blanks. I decide that I drink, smoke and party away x dollars each month; if I run short on dollars, I don’t look for ways to scrimp and save or do less with my life, blaming the government for it.

          I just find a greater income to match my spending levels, then I live as I choose and have no reason to bitch that the government gives away too much of my money. In fact payign even mroe taxes I can help out even more, and STILL live to my desired, or near to desired standards.

        • #2974808

          RE: It will eventually be righted…

          by netman1958 ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          Hi Oz, I have a serious question for you, so don’t take it as criticism and I would appreciate a serious answer.

          You said that if/when you run into financial distress that “I just find a greater income to match my spending levels”. I applaud you for that as that is also the way I handle it.

          Here’s my question. If you and I can do that, then why can’t “Mrs. Ratshaw on Common street” or anyone else for that matter? Then there wouldn’t be as much need for the gov’t to give away too much of our money and/or increase our taxes.

        • #2974801

          It’s not the amount

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          it’s the gross inefficiency, and the lack of real accountability.

          (and in reply to your post to Dumphrey)

          [i]When the banks were seeking a bailout due to all those who couldn’t pay of their mortgages, many people here were very supportive that the government should do something before the economy dies completely.[/i]

          Many? Really? Maybe a few. Maybe politicians. But not a single person I know, Democrat, Republican, or Independent, out of dozens I’ve talked to about it, supported the bank bailout… or ANY business bailout.

          All of the polls I’ve seen show people overwhelmingly against the bailouts. Yet our representatives continue to ignore us. Maybe it’s about time for an old-fashioned lynching… probably only have to do a hundred or so… before the rest of them got the message. Better yet, throw a hundred of them into Boston Harbor 🙂

        • #2974681

          NetMan

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          I accept that there are a lot of able bodied people and even people with full time jobs collectign welfare. One example is teh people who deliver flyers, they have three of four such jobs, pull in $3k/mo tax free and then collect welfare for being unemployed.

          There are also those who are just lazy and have the government carry them, so lazy in fact that a measely $550.0/mo will keep them from working a real job.

          But then there are those who are disabled, on permament disability, are fired after 30 years and find they are too old or overqualified to replace their last job and in the 4-6 months it takes them to get going again, they DESERVE help staying on their feet and unemployment income has a a lot of stipulations and delays/penalties attached to it. As most Canadians agree, even after workign and paying into UI (Unemployment Insurance which they renamed to EI, Employment Insurance)that they need welfare until they get UI/EI.

          Here’s how it works, you work for years at the same job and they close, merge etc. and you are letf unemployed. So you go and file for unemployment insurance, a two week minimum wait before yuo even qualify to start sending in your bi-weekly cards. Then you had 4 weeks severance pay, now you have to wait another 4 weeks before you qualify. Then when you finally Do qualify, you send in yoru cards and are usually paid for one week, which comes a week later.

          So in essence, you get a months pay from your exemployer, which obviously has to cover all bills and expenses for a month, including the cost of finding work.

          But it takes a bare minimum of 1.5 months to qualify and another week to see ONE WEEKS UI payment, which is maxed at $355.00!

          So you have waited and kept the bill collectors away for a month and now yuo have another two weeks to go, with THIS months bills due and only $355.00.

          These people are ususally forced to get Welfare in the interim, which is EASY to collect in such a case.

          BUT…..you get $550.00 from welfare and THAT is then deducted from your first UI payment, meaning you are screwed out of ANOTHER UI check, so you need to go back to welfare and so on and so on.

          The UI/EI system is more flawed for those that work and pay into it, than it is for welfare recipients that do nothing. However I don’ tthionk this means we should get rid of welfare because some people are forced to live on welfare they need it, they are fully qualified for it and that’s why it is there, we are a free and prosperous nation.

          Some people feel that they should be allowed to help these people themsleves and feel that it would be just as effective.

          There’s little logic in such a statement though.

          Firstly, to think that people would offer enough to someone to get by for a month is a bit extreme.

          Secondly, to think that they would continue to do so repeatedly until that person is self sufficient is very extreme.

          Thirdly, what about the people withotu family or friends to help them out? Do we let them rot?

          It just isn’t practical, its like saying do away with Santa, I’ll get toys to all teh children. Well maybe yours and a few others but not the billions that make up our planets youth. Many would go unknown and never thought of.

          So we have welfare, in my eyes FAR from perfect, often scammed, but still a necessary evil until someone devises a mroe effective system, and believe me they try. They system changes al the time, it is in a constant state of flux as it is manipulated, they nip it in the bud and seek better ways.

          But the tighter and stricter you get, it allows scammers to continue to scam and those who are less sleazy and just in need of help will suffer and be turned away for ridiculous reasons.

          I know someone else who was in the UI loop, HAD to get a check from welfare, he needed it to save his home. He went to welfare and was beliettled and rejected, he never returned. I ended up taking care of his mortgage for a few months and he swore to pay me back, as embarassed at the charity as he was. I let him pay me back for one month, I carried the other two for him and tols him I didn’t want to se ehis money, just to se him get ahead again. He got his feet on teh ground, was earning good money and ended up in hostpital fr a back operation, extended medical cut him off after 6 months, he was again in teh same position, but this time said screw UI and collected welfare for 6 months.

          So there ARE people who need and deserve a helpign hand, and if he hadn’t known me he would have been in dire straits. But what abotu those withotu freinds to help? What about those who just need and qualify yet are belittled and turned away, while some con artist gets his third check under a different name?

          Sorry for length, you had a valid question and I feel several examples will explain my views.

        • #2974636

          Why?

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          [i]they DESERVE help[/i]

        • #2974629

          Because.

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          there are we going to waste three more days answering your second grade questions?

          Deserve.

          Someone who is laid off after entended work, has paid thousands in taxes, in my minds eye, DESERVES help when his employer goes t1ts up. (Don’ teven mention UI, I have explained that problem in depth already here)

          Deserves: someone who has worked for decades, now has a permanent disablity that teh government supports.

          Deserves: someone who has worked hard and fed his family for decades now is out of work due to no action of his own, deserves help gettign on his feet.

          Welfare does not just hand out YOUR money.

          Welfare provides retraining support, clothing aloowance, workboots etc. to get people on track again. They offer training and resume writing programs, job finding programs and support. The measlely $550/mo they dole out is no present its no easy ride, it doesn’t even come close to covering basic rent in a suburb.

          Some peopl eearn and deserve support, many do not. But take it away form those who do not, and far mroe who do deserve it are left ot whiel the con artists continue to mil the system.

          So far Tony, you have offered anything BUT a viable solution (no, letting you help the world by yourself isn’t an answer), yet you constantly parrot how awful the current system is. Most companies would fire you for constant complaints without solutions but you have made it your art form on TR.

        • #2976231

          Why should

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          [i]
          Someone who is laid off after entended work, has paid thousands in taxes, [/i]

          society be responsible for someone’s failure to save up for such a possibility? It’s nothing to save 10-15% of your pay (double that if you’re single) until you have a 6 month cushion. That should be plenty of time to find a new job.

          [i]Deserves: someone who has worked for decades, now has a permanent disablity that teh government supports.[/i]

          I’ll give you that one. though they still should have been saving.

          Solutions? Start with getting the government mostly off our backs, and we’d have plenty of resources to help the needy. If you examine all of the taxes we pay, including the corporate tax that is hidden in the cost of everything we buy, I’ll bet 90% of the Americans posting here pay at least 50% of their income in taxes. Some more than that.

          What could we do with even half of that money back? We could buy stuff, of course… which would require more jobs be created to make stuff. Or you could bank it, which makes it available for borrowing by entrepreneurs. The result of either is higher wages and a greater amount of wealth being created, and even at half the rate, the government would end up pulling in almost as much revenue, which it can and should use to retire our national debt as soon as possible.

          Of course, it’s going to be a fight to get moving in that direction. First thing we have to do is “out” those public employees deeply entrenched in the social services sector who, for the purpose of guaranteeing their own job security, work toward keeping people dependent on the system instead of breaking the cycles!

        • #2975916

          I don’t know what planet you are living on

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          But it isn’t the same one the rest of us live on.

          [i]It’s nothing to save 10-15% of your pay (double that if you’re single) until you have a 6 month cushion.[/i]

          Wrong, that is an IDEAL situation. Most people live well beyond their means these days, FACT. With the cost of living, and available credit, most mid to high level earners are in greater debt than low income earners who haven’t the opportunity to actually run up large lines of credit. The average family, in North America lives check to check, there’s no 10-15% savings in the cards for them, whether right or wrong in your mind, this IS reality.

          Even those who would be an exception and able to save for 6 months, that’s 6 months with no emergencies to take care of, no extras needed (like new suits, shoes etc.) and they would also have to find suitable employment in just 6 months, from what I see and hear, that’s not so easy or common in the USA.

          Skilled and trained people are still looking for work a year and a half down the road, sure I would never let myself be out of work that long but some are simply unable to use the available resources to get going themselves.

          [i]”I’ll give you that one. though they still should have been saving.”[/i]
          as above, not reality but ideal.

          Your solutions: no more government.

          Okay, so you will take personal responsibility to see that people in need are taken care of. Bullsh1t.

          YOU will have more money in your pocket which means, YOU will have more money in your pocket, end of story. If more money in your pocket is not your goal, then who cares what the government does with your tax money? You do.

          So with all this extra income you have, that you are willing to give away to help people in need, when they need workboots to start a new job, ‘go see Tony’, he’ll buy em for you, just pay him back when you get your first paycheck’. Right, sure you will.

          You’ll donate your spare time to help people write proper resumes, teach them interview skills, and help them seek out better training to further their careers, you’ll of course take care of any related tuitions. Tony, you are one HELL of a nice guy!!

          When they are unable to feed the family, you’ll not only invite them over for dinner but you’ll give them a few coupons for Safeway so they can get some baby formula and milk etc.

          Tony for president!! oh, no there’s no government! Well, thanks for your help anyway.

          To top it all off, you will also take time to start a registry of all Americans coast to coast, north to south in order to see that each and every needy person will receive these same handouts by other Americans, who you are sure will also be happy to donate half of their income to help out.

          Welfare payments make up a very small part of your tax dollars, if you think otherwise, why do recipients get less than enough to rent a one bedroom apartment in scuzzville while you spend literally trillions on war machines?

          Most Americans think nothing of the government raising taxes or taking your tax money and funding unwarranted wars based on a whim but when it comes to helping your neighbours and other Americans that have fallen on hard times, you are ready to dispose of the government.

          There’s only one thing such a mentality brings to mind, and I am more than confident it goes for people all over the world when they look upon America, ‘Sure is nice to not live in America and have to fight with that lot of self centered, greedy and arrogant people’. (greedy and arrogant are the two big, international buzz words for describing America, I have found).

          Tony, ythis is not aprivate utopia, it is a nation governed and regulated so that each and every citiizen suposedly has equal opportunity. I am confident, make that absolutely POSITIVE, that you would not be able to do better for American citizens by yourself or even with the hopeful assistance of all the other employed Americans.

          Who pays teh police? Who regulates Police? Fire, Ambulane, hospitals, presecription drugs? Who runs tha jails, the rehabilitation programs, the schools etc.

          You are lucky to have a government.

        • #2990246

          I wouldn’t say most,

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          [i]Most people live well beyond their means these days, FACT[/i]

          But I know what you mean. So why should anybody bail them out?

          [i]Your solutions: no more government.[/i]

          Not “no more government” Minimized government. Stick to the essentials (infrastructure and defense), especially in lean times. Will it mean some will have to fend for themselves for a time. Yes! So what? People have had to do that off and on for thousands of years. It’s not easy, but it’s doable.

          [i]If more money in your pocket is not your goal, then who cares what the government does with your tax money? You do.[/i]

          Damn right! I see the waste and I want it to stop.

          [i]he’ll buy em for you, juts pay him back when you get your first paycheck'[/i]

          If I “give” something voluntarily, I don’t expect to be paid back.

          [i](greedy and arrogant are the two big, international buzz words for describing America I have found). [/i]

          I don’t think it’s greedy or arrogant to want to determine the best use of my resources and/or telling “my government” when it’s being wasteful.

        • #2990239

          It’s not easy, but it’s doable.

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          No it isn’t. People out here are purely ‘kin lazy as all hell. They are not willing to work unless paid more than other countries pay, they scream blue murder at the thought of someone offering to do their job for less, as they certainly aren’t prepared to work for less themselves.

          They are born and raised in a society where excess is the norm. Even the thought of conserving gasoline or walking instead of driving, or putting tigheter regulations on industries that provide creature conforts is absurdly invasive into their lives and ‘the government’ needs to do something about it, of course not them.

          So to think that people will learn to live with less is just a grandiose idea.

          I for one don’t NEED much, I have plenty but can do with nothing too, as most know i am just as happy living in the bush for a few weeks with f-all as I am touring with bands and partying in excess the whole way. Even though most bands have slowed right down on the drugs and partying thing, it is still a life of excess.

          [i]Damn right! I see the waste and I want it to stop. [/i]

          No, you see what YOU consider waste and want it to stop. But what about the people who would deem trillions in military spending a waste of their money and what if THEY want it to stop also. Do they not warrant the same voice as you as to how their taxes are spent?

          As for most people living beyond their means, yes that’s a fact. Everyone owns a home and one or two reasonable new cars or SUV’s. How many OWN those cars and homes vs the banks? Yes it IS a minority that OWN now. The banks own us, not just Americans but all of us who live with what we consider necessary luxuries (bit of an oxymoron but pretty accurate anyway).

          [i]”If I “give” something voluntarily, I don’t expect to be paid back.”[/i]

          You certainly would if you were EXPECTED to give on a regular basis, every single month whether you had the extra money to spare or not. People need help all the time, whether you can afford it or not, there’s no, “help me when it’s convenient” consideration. anythign less than that and your fellow citizens perish, turning America into a third world country very fast.

          [i]”I don’t think it’s greedy or arrogant to want to determine the best use of my resources and/or telling “my government” when it’s being wasteful.[/i]

          But only if YOU decide how your money is spent, which ‘pieces’ of government will still apply and which will not.
          You see, YOU don’t believe in welfare, but enough Americans do that it is still in place. Therefore, YOU are greedy in their eyes. THEY are greedy in YOUR eyes. Get it?

          Unless you have it YOUR way, it is wrong, that’s not greedy or arrogant?

        • #2990163

          And yet you say

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          [i]People out here are purely ‘kin lazy as all hell. They are not willing to work unless paid more than other countries pay, they scream blue murder at the thought of someone offering to do their job for less, as they certainly aren’t prepared to work for less themselves.[/i]

          They’re entitled to my earnings…

          [i]If I “give” something voluntarily, I don’t expect to be paid back.”

          You certainly would if you were EXPECTED to give on a regular basis, every single month whether you had the extra money to spare or not.[/i]

          That’s not giving, it’s taking!

          [i]But only if YOU decide how your money is spent, which ‘pieces’ of government will still apply and which will not. [/i]

          You’re right! I should decide how MY money is used,just like I decide how my living room furniture is used. You should decide how YOUR money is used… He should decide… She should decide, etc. That gives me an idea. What if every taxpayer could designate what his tax money was to pay for. I wonder how the various programs would fare…

        • #2991719

          Exactly

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          [i]What if every taxpayer could designate what his tax money was to pay for. I wonder how the various programs would fare… [/i]

          Thus we return to teh initial problem I stated.

          There would be an increase in poverty levels, those that really DID need or deserve some sort of help would not get it.

          You live and prosper, with 24/hr security to keep an eye on our home while you work, and others simply perish, starve, beg, steal or commit other crimes.

          Like I said, you’d be living in a third world country in no time.

          YOU do not run your country, therefore you PAY taxes so that those who do cam provide all Americans with at least the very basics of living in a free nation.

          Don’t like it, move. Perhaps the virgin islands would be more suited to your style of ‘mine, mine, mine’.

          You remind me of Daffy Duck when he and Bugs finally get into Simbad’s cave full of jewels.

        • #2991698

          First things first

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          There’s no excuse not to go after freeloaders.

          http://tinyurl.com/5ep6zj

          [i]There would be an increase in poverty levels, those that really DID need or deserve some sort of help would not get it.[/i]

          Why not? …the “majority” who you claim want to support these programs still would, wouldn’t they? But even if they didn’t, so what? Let them learn to live on less.

          You’ve yet to explain to me why anyone is entitled to demand the fruits of another’s labor.

          [i]YOU do not run your country,[/i]

          The British told us that once… they got their asses handed to them on a platter… TWICE! It has happened in other countries… It CAN happen again.

        • #2991683

          Enjoy your evening

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          Fair enough Tony, I made it through the first few sentences but I’m not running in circles trying to explain the most simplistic concept that is tantamount to the success of our nations as free, prosperous countriues that provide equal opportunity for all.

          Absolutely no point at all.

          But enjoy your evening all the same

        • #2989765

          You’re kidding, right?

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to The flaw there

          [i]the most simplistic concept that is tantamount to the success of our nations as free, prosperous countriues that provide equal opportunity for all.[/i]

          How is catering to freeloaders “tantamount to the success of our nations”?

        • #2977483

          ‘Statistically’, maybe.

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to Americans Are Stingy Givers

          I suspect that the statistics are missing a goodly number of people who give generously of their time and income ‘off the books’. I know quite a few of us.

          etu

        • #2977378

          is that unique

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to ‘Statistically’, maybe.

          to the US or do you feel that would be seen throughout the world?

        • #2977315

          Being somewhat optimistic in nature

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to is that unique

          I like to think that would be seen throughout the world.

          etu

        • #2977310

          You are graced here, Oz

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to is that unique

          That single most salient example of charity should convince you.

        • #2977878

          I would expect it’s not unique.

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to is that unique

          The problem is with the government forcing charity, A) we have less left to give, when B) because of the government’s “giving”, it takes more on our part to make a real difference.

          The government is making the problems worse than what they would otherwise be.

        • #2977481

          Your entire message is a factopinguess.

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Americans Are Stingy Givers

          And where do you sit? What’s your view?

          Percentage of income, how much do you, personally, give?

          Percentage of time (or hours), how much time do you give?

          As a country, can you provide the numbers (in both dollars and percentages), and the source of your information?

          As a country, how much time do people give?

          What are the reported numbers? How about the unreported numbers?

          Moreover, how does all this reconcile with other comments you’ve made about the average working guy making barely enough to get by? On one hand, you sympathize because he’s struggling; on the other hand, you criticize him for not giving enough. What gives?

        • #2977320

          We’ve Been Through This Before

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Your entire message is a factopinguess.

          Max,

          We have covered this before. I have neither the time or the need to look up and post the sources for my statements. The information all come from articles I have read from a variety of sources.

          Unlike you, I do not need to have supporting data from a multitude of sources in order to have an opinion or take a stance.

          While I have not seen any data on how much of America’s charity giving goes to the local churches, I do wonder what the numbers would look like if you factored out the contributions that solely go to operate and build the churches in this country.

          For that matter, how much would charitable contributions drop in the US if they were not tax deductible?

          Chas

        • #2976600

          And we just need to look at our leaders

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Americans Are Stingy Givers

          Obamas Donated Less Than 1% of Their 2000-2004 Income
          http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=apR1J1py2Ouc&refer=home
          [i]
          The Obamas increased the amount they gave to charity when their income rose in 2005 and 2006 after the Illinois senator published a bestselling book. The $137,622 they gave over those two years amounted to more than 5 percent of their $2.6 million income.

        • #2976799

          HEAR HEAR !!!

          by older **** ·

          In reply to Here is some of the typical response…

          I couldn’t agree with you more. However, I think the “so many other ?points? that you make here that I could take to task one-by-one” that OZ makes are simply reflective on the state that many [myself for one], find ourselves in today. I am a 61yr old vet, raised on solid middle class, [aannndd God-Fearing], standards, and yet we have come to a point of total frustration with corporate greed, financial irresponsibility of government [where is Keynsian economics?], record high/still-rising crime, judiciary out of control, lower to mid level non-existant meaningful education—-the list goes on & on as said….in the final analysis it literally leaves a person babbling…..[I know I am] I am belittled down to one statement: SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!!

          In the meantime, as long as “we” continue to “voice” our “thoughts”, perhaps we make one more person salient, and somewhere down the line those people coalesce into a active, functioning unit to get those grievances addressed. And God help us–it will be peaceful. A redress of grievances [hopefully]. Till then, you, OZ, —and many others keep talking—outward–to many others.

          Sam

        • #2974905

          God-Fearing

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to HEAR HEAR !!!

          Why God fearing? If you are one of those who still believe in God, which is becoming less and less popular over the last 100 years or so, why would you FEAR him?

          Isn’t God supposed to be kind and helping, forgiving and understanding? I certainly don’t fear anyone with such standards, especially if there was actually a ‘God’ that offered me such a hand in life.

          Then again, the one good thing about believing in the unbelievable must be that anything that can’t be explained or reasoned with logic and science would automatically just be ‘one of God’s odd ways, which we will never understand in this lifetime’. How soothing and easy!

          But I didn’t know you would fear God if you believed in him, that must suck BIG time!

          Then again, if you don’t want to be scared, you can just stop going to church and saying you believe in him, problem solved!! See, that is way more effective than saying it’s God’s way!

          Now you don’t really have to be scared anymore, I think there is enough fact to make any dreams of a higher being to seem completely illogical nowadays.

        • #2974891

          God Fearing…

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to God-Fearing

          I was raised Presbyterian, so I can say I don’t “fear” god, he was to vague and loving to be feared. (God so loved the world he gave his only son…yaddie yaddie yaddie)
          Fear of God seems to be a fundamentalist thing, and while I “understand” (mentally) it, I don’t get it. I think the fear comes from the Old testament Hell Fire and Brimstone preaching from the early parts of the last Century. It was used as a social control mechanism to promote a particular religious meme (ie tithing to the church). (Flame away on that comment, its the tip of my iceburg on religion.)

        • #2974844

          Cool

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to God Fearing…

          Wasn’t the old testamant the one that said it was okay to rape and impregnate 13 year old women?

          It’s nice, convennient, how God decided that the old testament was too harsh and decided to revise it to meld in with what society deemed more important these days.

          Conveniently edited to disclude what was not socially acceptable by religious fanatics, and revised to still ward of some evil doers but appease the evil doers who believed in God. YEah religoin makes SO much sense these days. Maybe 100+ years ago there was some partially believable theory but not in 2008.

          In my mind, religion simply stops mankind from progression as a species.

      • #2976798

        The above…

        by latenightlar ·

        In reply to The above

        I absolutely REFUSE to go shopping on Black Friday… I don’t care how good the bargains are. There’s nothing I need or want bad enough to get into that mortal combat situation.

        I think the store should also be held accountable for this young man’s death, just as much as any of the shoppers. Mass market retailers have created the Black Friday hysteria with their extreme sale prices for the first ten customers or whatever, and by opening earlier and earlier every year.

        • #2974856

          yea Hold the store accountable… NOT

          by xnavydk ·

          In reply to The above…

          If it was at a mom and pop or BestBuy you would’nt be saying that. The man was trampled by HUMANS, in a situation that was designed by humans. Hold HUMANS accountable.. heh, i hold myself accountable, by not participating in the mechanism that is the holiday season. BAH HUMBUG

      • #2976669

        Amen!

        by sing4you1 ·

        In reply to The above

        It’s very sad that the Christmas spirit has been completely drowned out by rabid consumerism.

        I rarely shop in stores because of this. I know it’s good to support your local retailer but the internet offers no traffic, no parking hassles, no crowds, and a better variety of products. I may buy a couple of things in small local shops but, for the most part, I’m going on-line!!

    • #2975556

      Unbelievable!

      by tig2 ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      The SO and I went shopping on the day after Thanksgiving
      ONE TIME. We were so completely disgusted by the
      experience we have vowed to never do it again. I made
      our Christmas gifts this year and I feel no need
      whatsoever to make any further purchases.

      Fortunately, according to the article, the pregnant lady
      and her baby are okay. My heart goes out to that man’s
      family. The horror of such a thing happening is just
      beyond belief.

      • #2975532

        Normally, I dont

        by the scummy one ·

        In reply to Unbelievable!

        but I wanted to see. I went past a Wal-Mart on the way to Sears, and the lot was full, traffic was backed up into the street.
        Across the street was a Target store, about half the parking lot was full.
        Sears was pretty busy as well, but bearable.

        As for Wal-Mart, 2 years ago there were a few incidents as well. Last year, those stores had local Police keeping people in line. I wonder what happened today.

        • #2975867

          This was my first foray into ‘Black Friday’

          by notsochiguy ·

          In reply to Normally, I dont

          My sister came by to watch the kids, and we (wife and I)were out the door at 4:30. We went to a few stores (we split to go to stores opening at 5, and then met up to hit Target at 6) and I have to say, I was pleasantly surprised.

          There were fairly large crowds at all of the stores, but for the most part, people were well mannered.

          At Target, there was a potential for incident, when a large (20+) group of ‘line jumpers’ tried to get into the store when the doors opened. Management stepped up, though. They cordoned off that group, and made them wait until everyone that had been in line went into the store. People were walking by, shouting kudos to the store management and giving them pats on the back (literally).

          I’m not sure if I would do it again, but for my first time, I can’t honestly complain.

        • #2975722

          Interesting…

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Normally, I dont

          A mall not far from here (no Walmart around) had a man knocked down and trampled, ending up with a broken elbow… here’s the interesting part… fortunately, there were EMTs standing by at the scene, so he was immediately rushed to the hospital.

          I don’t know if that was good planning, or low expectations 🙂

        • #2974883

          I would say it was both.. NT

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to Interesting…

          NT

      • #2974884

        Try working for 6 Black Fridays in retail..

        by dumphrey ·

        In reply to Unbelievable!

        you could freeze crap to a stick and sell it to people as Crap On A Stick ™ at $6.99 a pop…
        It lowers your opinion of American social intelligence, manners, and general level of evolution :\
        While I never saw anyone trampled, I did see numerous fist fights, hair pulling, shoving, theft, several stabbings, and a general low level of manners. And this was in a Mall in a city voted to be in the Top 10 cities to live in by Forbes..

        • #2974853

          go to any mall in san diego on any given black friday….

          by xnavydk ·

          In reply to Try working for 6 Black Fridays in retail..

          you will see all of that.

        • #2974626

          you’re right

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Try working for 6 Black Fridays in retail..

          And I’ve done it too.

          I’ve taken over 6000 unsolicited demo CD’s from the European market, branded them and sold them at $16.99 a pop in California.

          Bands do it all the time there, because nobody expects quality from music, just something everyone else is buying, its hilarous. US is an easy market, if you can’t sell it elsewhere, any old, poorly produced crap will fly off he shelves there with s bit of marketing behind it.

          For bands to sell home-made garage demos that even a label wouldn’t bother listening too, is great though, way to clear out the back catalogue!

    • #2975546

      Hey Oz,

      by jaqui ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      welcome to my world view.

      people need to be killed off just to improve the gene pool.

    • #2975538

      Yup the bash was there,

      by road-dog ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      I just had to read a ways down to get to it.

      All that aside, we Americans do need to knock this stuff off. This season has become a monstrosity. I for one am happy I decided years ago to get the hell off the treadmill.

      This season is where this “me first” attitude that is all too common in this country comes to a head. And for all the wrong reasons.

      I’m sure that TR folks were not in that cattle call. Maybe we need to pass along to loved ones that we’d rather enjoy their stress free company this holiday than see them brave a mosh pit of consumerism… to give us something we could buy on sale after the holiday for a better price than what is available on black Friday.

      • #2975535

        The U.S. has not cornered the idiot market

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to Yup the bash was there,

        ROSKILDE, Denmark (CNN) — Grieving fans left candles and flowers at a Danish outdoor music stage Saturday, hours after at least eight people were trampled to death in a surge of concert-goers in a muddy field. Despite the deaths Friday night, organizers elected to go ahead with the massive four-day concert at Roskilde, Denmark, about 40 kilometers (25 miles) west of the capital of Copenhagen.

        At least 12 people, including youths and police officers, were trampled to death after police raided a Mexico City nightclub on Friday, according to police. Three officers and nine youths, three of them minors, were killed, Police Chief Joel Ortega said. At least 13 people were injured.

        Sometimes the surging crowds, trekking from one station of the pilgrimage to the next, cause a stampede. Panic spreads, pilgrims jostle to avoid being trampled, and hundreds of deaths can result. The Stoning of the Devil ceremony is particularly crowded and dangerous.
        ? On July 2, 1990, a stampede inside a pedestrian tunnel (Al-Ma’aisim tunnel) leading out from Mecca towards Mina and the Plains of Arafat led to the deaths of 1,426 pilgrims.
        ? On May 23, 1994, a stampede killed at least 270 pilgrims at the stoning of the Devil ritual.
        ? On April 9, 1998, at least 118 pilgrims were trampled to death and 180 injured in an incident on Jamarat Bridge.
        ? On March 5, 2001, 35 pilgrims were trampled to death in a stampede during the stoning of the Devil ritual.
        ? On February 11, 2003, the stoning of the Devil ritual claimed 14 pilgrims’ lives.
        ? On February 1, 2004, 251 pilgrims were killed and another 244 injured in a stampede during the stoning ritual in Mina.
        ? On January 12, 2006, a stampede during the ritual ramy al-jamarāt on the last day of the Hajj in Mina killed at least 346 pilgrims and injured at least 289 more.
        TUNIS, May 1 (Reuters) – Six people died and a dozen were injured in a stampede during an open air concert in Tunisia, state news agency Tunis Afrique Presse and witnesses reported on Tuesday.

        The December 3, 1979 Who concert tragedy in Cincinnati, Ohio, ranks as the most horrific rock concert incident in the United States. Eleven rock fans were crushed to death and scores injured because of gross crowd management failings.

        Screaming fans charged the gate of a soccer stadium where the adolescent pop group Menudo was to perform on Sunday, and trampled two women to death, the police said. The women, one 48 years old and another in her 20’s, were killed in the stampede toward the Vasco da Gama Stadium gate, which was opened three hours before the teen-age Puerto Rican group’s performance, according to Jorge Silveira, a police detective.

        Jakarta – At least 10 people were trampled to death in a stampede during a music concert accident in Indonesia’s West Java capital of Bandung, local media reports said Sunday. The melee occurred as the crowd jostled its way out the exit doors after an underground concert, state-run Antara news agency reported.

        Beijing, Nov. 12 – Chinese cities have ordered checks on supermarkets in the wake of a chaotic cooking oil promotion in a Carrefour store in which three people were trampled to death. The dead were among hundreds of customers who crushed into one of the French retail giant stores in Chongqing, a sprawling southwestern city where giddy growth jostles with grinding hardship. Managers lost control of the hundreds scrambling for discount cooking oil, a powerful lure for Chinese consumers juggling tight budgets and ballooning food prices, including those for the oil essential for home cooking.

        Sometimes, the frenzy of a new Ikea store can lead to tragedy. In September 2004, two men were trampled to death and 16 shoppers were injured in a rush by 20,000 people to claim vouchers at the first Ikea in Saudi Arabia.

        Meanwhile in February 2005, a riot at the opening of a new Ikea in North London, as shoppers fought over bargains, caused the store to close just 30 minutes after opening.

        A sold-out heavy-metal concert in Montreal starring Guns ‘n’ Roses and Metallica turned into a riot on Saturday after W. Axl Rose, the lead singer of Guns ‘n’ Roses, called his band off the stage 55 minutes into the show, complaining of voice problems?.. The Montreal police said rioters among the 53,000 audience members smashed stadium windows with an uprooted street lamp, looted a souvenir boutique, burned a sports car and Guns ‘n’ Roses T-shirts and set dozens of small fires. About 300 club-wielding police officers chased rioters through the streets and fired tear gas to regain control. The police sealed off the area and shut down four nearby subway stations to prevent the riot from spreading to the transit system.

        Riots mar Canada Day in Edmonton: The riot began after the bars and clubs closed around midnight, when between 800 and 1500 people spilled out onto Whyte Avenue on the south side of the city. Police say they initially responded to reports of fights. By two a.m., the crowd could not be controlled, and wouldn’t disperse. Then people started throwing concrete chunks, rocks and bottles. They also smashed store windows, phone booths, and park benches along a five block stretch of Whyte Avenue.

        http://www.mytholog.com/trampling.html

        • #2975529

          Max,

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to The U.S. has not cornered the idiot market

          ya gotta remember one thing though about that Canada Day riot.. Edmonton, it’s in Alberta, the flatlanders, and I suspect they are all “Flat Earthers” as well.
          logical thought doesn’t seem to exist in Alberta. 😉

          you know, kind of like Canada’s version of the hill-billies. 😀

        • #2975406

          I like the idea of Alberta

          by dr dij ·

          In reply to Max,

          it is supposed to be the best off province due to budget surpluses from mining. Shale oil I guess, and they export 1/3 of the worlds chickpeas and alot of lentils.

          In my job hunt desparation I was even thinking of moving there to avoid the steaming t*rdpile of crooked brokers that is the US economy. I don’t think I qualify as a flatlander tho.

        • #2975404

          I noticed

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to I like the idea of Alberta

          The changes to your moniker.

          The situation compels sea change.

          Been there.

          Godspeed.

        • #2975326

          I lasted 5 years

          by dr dij ·

          In reply to I noticed

          longer than they said I would be needed when they hired me so no regrets.

          Just wish I had been CONSTANTLY TRAINING during that time. I was only constantly training instead.

        • #2975373

          Thanks for that backhanded compliment

          by gate keeper ·

          In reply to I like the idea of Alberta

          Hey ! in our defense .. we are not as flat-landed as those sasks 😀

        • #2975350

          LOL

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Thanks for that backhanded compliment

          I just typed that myself before I read your post. 😀

        • #2975887

          Hey hey now

          by shellbot ·

          In reply to Thanks for that backhanded compliment

          “those sasks”…. that me buddy!!!!!

          🙂

        • #2975351

          Its tempting

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I like the idea of Alberta

          I do a lot of work in Alberta, have done so in all corners of Alberta for years now.

          They are some of the nicest and most accomodating people on the west side of the country (nothing like the maritimers, though, that are the best anywhere).

          Albertan’s are also facing a pretty stuck up younger generation now though, the labourers are the typical yokels jaqi refers to, yup, flatlander but not like Saskatchewan…ers, ese? The TRUE flat landers.

          Albertans are like Texans, not always the brightest of the bunch but everything is BIG and RICH, y’all, yeeehaw!! The towns closer to the Rockies are nice, but Edmonton and Calgary are pretty crappy and not much different than other cities, except drenched in crappy music.

          Excellent income, you can earn more than $16/hr at A&W drive through, but also a high cost of living, though no provincial tax on purchases (nice). We finally copied their private liquor store idea, thanks for the cheaper booze Alberta!

          It is my second favorite spot in Canada, due to the wildlife and mountains, but for ‘people’ the Maritimes (Nova Scotia/Sydney, PEI, Mew Brunswick, Newfoundland) beat other provinces hands down.

          You have NEVER met people like them, but you’d learn real fast when your first interaction with a maritimer(and as a complete stranger)results in an invitation to dinner and to stay at his home so you can save on the hotel.

        • #2975325

          like PEI

          by dr dij ·

          In reply to Its tempting

          went there as kids. We’d vacation in Maine up from NY or Pennsylvania in summers and sometimes we’d make it further north.

          Even once my dad snuck a lobster up to the summer cottage from the bay, directly into a pot of boiling water. Shudder to think what could have happened if we were discovered poaching.

          Learned to swim there, in icy 56o waters. Gives you character, as my parents would say. And then, straight out of a Simpsons episode, we kids were arguing in the back seat, so parents made us get out and run behind the station wagon! (they’d told us frequently before that it would happend but it never had before 🙂

          I’m sure that built character!

          Then there was my buddy Jeff who we explored the slippery seaweed covered rocks with, and had an older sister who wanted to play this game.. Well, better not get into that..

        • #2975314

          That

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to I like the idea of Alberta

          Surplus was from the now retired Kline.(sp?)

          The socialist Premier of the Province for years actually did a good job, no small thanks to the oil sands.

          There are some bleeding edge R&D companies there, in environmentally friendly power generation.

          Unfortunately, when things drop in our economy, Alberta will be hit really hard. Since the market drop they have had an increase in unemployment rate already.

        • #2975525

          Max

          by puppybreath ·

          In reply to The U.S. has not cornered the idiot market

          If you had researched further, you would have discovered that all of these incidents were either caused by Americans directly or because of their evil influence on other countries. All of the countries mentioned in the article are loving, peaceful countries when left to themselves. It’s only when America starts bullying people and pushing the world around that these things happen.

          I’m sure there’s also a direct link between these incidents and Bush but I haven’t be able to pin it down yet. I’ll keep looking but maybe Oz will be able to find it for us.

          😉

        • #2975353

          Some similarities anyway

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The U.S. has not cornered the idiot market

          There are a couple of similar incidents there, fair enough. The majority are from concerts where large, boistrous crowds fighting it out, is an expected and common thing to occur. When you get general admission to an outdoor festival, especially with underground or industrial metal bands playing, it is par for the course that people get trampled, usually not to death though but many serious injuries.
          Stoning rituals? that doesn’t fall into the same category as a mother and child seeking bargains at a local discount store.

          If your intent is to prove that people have been trampled before, I have to agree.

          People being trampled for a sale is a bit extreme though.

          I don’t even spend much time at the front anymore, mosh pits are out of hand these days, just drunk guys that have no interest in the show and use it for a reason to just start punching and knocking out people randomly. They usually get tossed, but not until after the damage is done.

          I’d like to think that shopping in a family department store would not bring about the same brital mentality for most sane people, unless we should expect people to get drunk and slam around, punching each other to get the best deals, not quite the same expectations for the consumer as going to a hard rock show.

          One you listed was pretty much started because the Hellls Angels were originally hired as security and then told they weren’t allowed to right before the show, good way to upset a few of the wrong people. The same happened when the Stones hired them too.

          But that isn’t WalMart, or at least one would hope not.

        • #2975348

          Give us

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to The U.S. has not cornered the idiot market

          a couple thousand years, my bets are that Earth has not cornered the idiot market. Betting on lots of extra-terrestrial idiots, myself.

        • #2977526

          That’s why they say…

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Give us

          The two most common elements in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity.

    • #2975534

      This breaking news just in

      by maxwell edison ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      4,120 Wal-Mart stores in the United States opened their doors to shoppers on this Friday after Thanksgiving without incident. So far there have been no comments from local authorities or media outlets as to the reason behind this behavior.

      • #2975346

        Oh well thats different

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to This breaking news just in

        That makes it all okay then, no big deal, sorry about that.

        That’ll make the young guy’s mom sleep better at night, perhaps you could mail her your list of liks too so she understands just how normal such an event is all over the world; especially with it happening at concerts and stonings, she should have been prepared for it to happen at WalMart.

      • #2975263

        No Reported Incident

        by thechas ·

        In reply to This breaking news just in

        No incident? Or, no reported incident?

        I am sure that at many stores in many towns people going through the doors were pushed, shoved, bruised and battered. Generally, if the injured do not require medical attention, the incident goes unreported.

        Over the past few years, the crush of the crowds at the Black Friday sales has been seeing more and more people injured. There has typically been someone injured as they fell in front of the mob. Or, in the fights over who picked up the last of the special sale item.

        The American public needs to grow up past the “as long as I get mine, who cares about the rest” mentality.

        This mob mentality that has developed over the past decade or so needs to end.

        I know it’s not everyone, or even a majority of the people who follow the mob mentality. However, everyone is responsible if they don’t speak up to their friends and relatives who do participate in the mob mentality.

        Chas

        • #2977525

          Very little goes unreported nowadays…

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to No Reported Incident

          don’t want to miss their chance at the victimhood trophy.

        • #2977375

          Don’t fool yourself ,Tony

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Very little goes unreported nowadays…

          If there were six other similar incidents, where nobody died, the press would simply report the juicy story of a detah and miscarriage.

          Max’s noted concert violence jst touches on a few reported key events. GNR riot in Vancouver made headlines but I have seen countless numbers of people sent to hospital and losing eyesight after taking a boot in the face while down, broken limbs, head injuries, massive cuts from random stabbings at concerts just to touch the surface, but it isn’t news most of the time if there’s something more edgy to report.

        • #2977365

          Of course, the more “juciy”

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Don’t fool yourself ,Tony

          the more widely something is reported. People close to it though still want a piece of the victimhood. There was a tug of war over the last XBOX360 locally. One guy let go, the other fell back and hit a third person. The third person is suing the store???? how stupid!

          We wouldn’t have ANY of these problems if we’d start holding people personally responsible for their individual actions! All of this “What have ‘we’ become”?” is a load! “We” didn’t do anything. I wasn’t there, and neither were you. I don’t behave that way, and I don’t want to be lumped in with people who do.

        • #2977468

          You missed my point

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to No Reported Incident

          In your message bashing the general goodwill of Americans, you relied on a per capita assessment. (Although it was no more than a guess).

          I was merely looking at this in what might be seen as a per capita assessment. Why don?t you look at it in the same way?

          Don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting that Americans aren’t self-centered and greedy. (Just like most people of the world are self-centered and greedy ? especially Canadians). I just question which ones are self-centered and greedy. After all, how many of them actually feel entitled to be given the fruits of another’s labor? How many of them want to shirk what should be their personal responsibility onto others? Is it more self-centered and greedy to want to keep what you earn or to covet what another person earns? What?s more self-centered and greedy? Giving the shirt of your own back, or casting a vote that gives the shirt off another?s?

          In this case, one, or two, or three incidents compared to the thousands of non-incidents. It?s the rotten apples that spoils the bunch.

          I don?t care what you say. I don?t care what Oz says. Most Americans are decent people. (Although many of those otherwise decent people have been brainwashed to support the political notion that they are not responsible for their own lives, and/or are entitled to have something they did not earn.)

        • #2977323

          Men In Black

          by thechas ·

          In reply to You missed my point

          I think a quote from the Tommy Lee Jones character in the first Men In Black movie sums it up.

          A person is smart, people are dumb.

          I don’t disagree that the average person on his or her own has good judgment and can do what is right.

          It is when you get a group of people together that things go bad.

          Actually, it is pretty amassing that we only had one major trampling happen this year. Based on what I have seen of the crowds the last few times I ventured out on Black Friday, running with the bulls in Pompalo is a much safer and saner thing to do.

          Chas

        • #2977465

          Do you know what? I?m so tired of this.

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to No Reported Incident

          Oz, a Canadian, always pointing out what?s wrong with America. Chas, an American, always pointing out what?s wrong with America.

          Listening to the two of you, one might think there?s nothing right with America.

          Too many people focus on what’s wrong instead of focusing on – and encouraging – what’s right.

          It’s said that [i]bad news sells[/i], and you two have bought into it lock, stock, and barrel.

          (P.S. Now is the time both of you will criticize me instead of addressing my message. Same ol? same ol?)

        • #2977371

          Of course

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Do you know what? I?m so tired of this.

          everyone can stick their heads in the sand and pretend its all rainbows and lolipops, I’m sure we’d all love ot do it, but it isn’t reality.

          And I haven’t said such incidents don’t happen here, in fact with 10% of your population, I am sure that we have probably at least a little less than 10% of the similar incidents that you do. I would think that, logically, the Toys R Us incident would be rarer here too.

          But you go get sick and mad, then think of all the positives and block out any evil realities, its easier that way.

        • #2977358

          Pretend its all rainbows and lolipops?

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Of course

          Give me a break. You know I don’t think that, and you know I didn’t say that? Therefore, what’s the point of conversation.

          Okay, as you were – back to your favorite sport – bashing America.

        • #2977284

          Frustrated?

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Do you know what? I?m so tired of this.

          Max,

          I am sure that part of your problem with Oz and myself is that as hard as you try you have been unable to convince us that your line of thought and way of looking at the world is better than ours.

          If anything, you have driven both of us further away from your conclusions and view of what the world could be.

          Are there good things that happen every day in the US, of course.

          Are there many instances where the very fabric of civil society is at risk and we just happen to make it through the day? That is also true.

          To maintain a civil society, EVERYONE has to be willing to put aside what is in their personal best interest in order that society as a whole can function.

          Where that line between personal interest and what is needed to keep our civil society functioning smoothly is the real question.

          In the case of the WalMart stampede, all it would have taken were a few people to form a blockade around the downed worker to prevent the tragedy. The trampled worker does not bother me as much as the shoppers who got upset when the store was closed to take care of the now dead man.

          Society is breaking down all around us. We MUST speak out strongly to reverse the trend.

          Chas

        • #2977435

          Side Question – What’s wrong with Michigan? One word.

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to No Reported Incident

          Unions

          And as an extension, everything unions have done. Unions have ruined your state. Unions have bankrupt a once great American industry.

          Well done, Michigan. And you espouse more of the same? That’s insanity.

        • #2977362

          I suggest Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Side Question – What’s wrong with Michigan? One word.

          And others have had a bigger impact on auto industry world wide. These companies with superior engineering, build quality and value for money, would have more effect on automibile manufacturers abilty to survive in an incressingly compeditive globalised market.

          This leaves your local industry with two options, become better so you can beat the competition, or have the government put up trade bariers to give them a trading advantage.

        • #2977357

          Become better so you can beat the competition?

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to I suggest Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW

          And why didn’t that happen?

          (Right, this is where [i]greedy corporate officers[/i] gets the blame.)

        • #2977258

          It won’t be down to unions or greedy managers

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Become better so you can beat the competition?

          It will be down to better workers, beter managers better organisation, better technology, benifits gained from investment in tooling and modern factories. Taking the narrow view that its down to unions and /or greedy corporate managers isn’t going to fix problems. The industry if it has that atitude had better hope they are next in line behind the bankers with their hands out to the government.

        • #2977252

          Last I heard

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to It won’t be down to unions or greedy managers

          they are.

        • #2977809

          Bottom Line

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to It won’t be down to unions or greedy managers

          Unions HAVE ruined America’s auto industry

        • #2977723

          Unions may not have been the WHOLE cause,

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to It won’t be down to unions or greedy managers

          but paying workers more for no more output/no better quality sure isn’t a recipe for profitability.

        • #2977278

          Many Words

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Side Question – What’s wrong with Michigan? One word.

          While I will not argue that the compensation demands of the UAW may be beyond what is reasonable, unions alone are not at the cause of Michigan’s or the Auto Industries problems.

          In the case of Michigan itself:

          Crumbling infrastructure.

          Health care and the general health of the population.

          Climate. (If you had the option, would you choose a warm state or a cold state?)

          Environmental concerns. With the Great Lakes in nearly every communities watershed, there is no low cost option for dealing with waste water or chemical waste.

          I could go on. The point is, changing just one factor such as wages would not be enough to correct the overall problem.

          Chas

        • #2977883

          The state/province in North America that makes the most vehicles is….

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Many Words

          Ontario.

          Ontario has both unionized (CAW equivalent of UAW) sites for GM Ford and Chrysler, and non unionized sites for Honda and Toyota. I don’t honestly know if CAMI (GM/Suziki) is union or not. Volvo trucks and Sterling Trucks also manufacture here.

          We have the same climate, the same environmental concerns. We have serious pollution, both from our own industry and because we are downwind of the Ohio coal fired power plants.

          Our health care costs are one thing that has made us a favoured place to build a car plant.

          Its no secret that the big three plants in Canada are struggling while Honda and Toyota thrive(without a unionized workforce). Unions may be a big part of it – also the type of vehicle has an impact. I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

          James

        • #2977609

          CAFE Standards

          by thechas ·

          In reply to The state/province in North America that makes the most vehicles is….

          CAFE standards play a big role in what vehicles all of the automakers build in Canada or Mexico.

          Many of GMs larger cars are built in Canada so that they can be counted as imports to offset their low mileage and avoid the CAFE tax.

          Chas

        • #2976107

          Really?

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to CAFE Standards

          Canadian made cars didn’t used to count as imports under the Auto Pact. The Auto Pact, signed in the sixties provided that vehicles built in the US and Canada could freely travel between countries without tarriffs, provided that Canada exported as many vehicles as imported.

          The Auto Pact was made extinct by free trade.

          If that was the case, why did they shut down the full size pickup truck plants in Oakville (Ford) and Oshawa(GM)?

          James

        • #2990216

          CAFE and Trucks

          by thechas ·

          In reply to CAFE Standards

          Last, I knew, pickup trucks were not part of the auto CAFE standards. Trucks have their own standard and are not counted as part of the auto production as far as the CAFE standards go.

          SUVs depend on if they are classified as cars or trucks.

          Chas

        • #2975743

          GM Created the UAW

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Side Question – What’s wrong with Michigan? One word.

          No, I don’t mean to imply that GM actually started and grew the UAW. But, the way GM treated the workforce led to the development of the 20th century labor movement and the present situation that the US automakers face.

          If GM could have taken any number of steps to improve work conditions at it’s plants that would have taken the wind out of the union organizers. Instead, GM in it’s typical arrogance treated the workforce with disdain at best.

          GM management at the time could have made any of a number of changes that would have negated the need for the union to form and strike. Treated their workers with dignity, addressed safety issues, slowed the line down to a humane speed, revised supervision practices to reward effort rather than cronyism, provided for workers who became disabled or died from safety problems.

          Instead, GM believed that they could replace the workforce at will and ended up being the impetus for the creation of the UAW.

          At GM in particular, there are still remnants of arrogance in management. When was the last time that GM actually brought a new concept to market? Be it the muscle cars of the 60’s, the small cars of the 80’s, the mini-van, or the popular SUV, GM always follows rather than leads the market. Even the Volt is little more than a response to the Toyota Prius.

          I won’t argue that the union compensation package is not a factor in the US automakers problems. However, without better management, I doubt that GM would be in much better shape even if they had the same labor costs as the import brands.

          How is it that the import plants keep from becoming unionized? Sure, they are all located in right to work states. But, that is not enough. The big thing that they do is treat their workers as part of the team. And, treat them fairly.

          Until the US automakers and the UAW realize that they need to work together as a team, the US automakers will be at the brink of failure.

          Also, on the bigger issue of why union membership is down overall, just look at all the formally union jobs that have been shipped overseas. The US public does not care where or under what conditions an item is made so long as the price is cheap.

          Even without union rules and wages, those textile and small manufactured item jobs would still have gone overseas. No way could any US based manufacturing plant compete with $1 per week wages.

          Chas

        • #2976609

          You’re discussing 2008 issues with 1935 arguments

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to GM Created the UAW

          Sorry, but that’s about as relevant as the color of dust on the moon. How and why the UAW (formerly the AFL) was formed is a matter for history classes, not discussing current-day problems.

          The old saying, [i]give them an inch, and they take a mile[/i], certainly applies – except in this case, the UAW took so many miles that they drove their own industry off a cliff. When $2,500 is added onto the price of each and every automobile just to pay for retirement and health benefits for people who longer work making those automobiles, it’s both very telling and very troubling.

        • #2976602

          It’s like saying

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to You’re discussing 2008 issues with 1935 arguments

          Ted Bundy is a good person because he helped an injured bird when he was a little boy.

        • #2990204

          Source of Power

          by thechas ·

          In reply to You’re discussing 2008 issues with 1935 arguments

          By generally forcing the workers to take action back in the 1930’s, General Motors showed both the union members and leadership that they had the power to control their future.

          Once the union found out what power they had, and as often as the automakers have capitulated to their demands, the end result is the wage structure the US auto industry has.

          The point is that had GM been a bit less arrogant back in the 30’s and treated their workers better, the union would never have formed and the wage structure would not be what it is today.

          The further point is that GM management has not changed much at all in the years since. GM is still not willing to listen to what the customer wants. GM, Chrysler, and to a lesser extent, Ford have still not opened their eyes and ears to understand why so many Americans by Japanese and Korean cars.

          The US auto industry has always preferred to make cars bigger rather than better.

          Aside from the how and why of the problems that the US automakers have, why shouldn’t workers be able to work a closed market to their advantage?

          When a company corners a market and raises the price it charges, you call that free enterprise.

          Why shouldn’t the same rules apply to the work force?

          While an individual worker can do very little to improve their deal with the company, working together, the workers at a single plant do have enough clout to demand improvements to their compensation.

          As far as retiree benefits, reducing retiree benefits is about as likely to happen as Congress would be to reduce Social Security benefits in an election year. Retirees are still part of the union and still vote in at least leadership elections.

          The bottom line on the UAW is that GM and the US auto industry have no grounds to complain that the monster they helped to create is chomping on their rears.

          Chas

        • #2976606

          The sector that’s actually picking up Union membership?

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to GM Created the UAW

          By the way, the sector that’s actually picking up Union membership? That would be the government sector – growing in both numbers of people, and in numbers of union members – not to mention an ever increasing union influence.

          The average salary of a government employee is around $57,000. The average salary of Americans in general is around $34,000. Most Americans, in general, don’t work for a company that will provide a life-long pension and health care. Most government workers do.

          People better start wondering about two things: First of all, who’s serving whom? And secondly, what will happen when the government is forced to increase its unit price to pay for all this?

        • #2990210

          More Union madness

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to GM Created the UAW

          http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

          This is from 2005, and job banks have been drastically cut in more recent years, buy my oh my, what harm have they done over the years?

          More:

          http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/unionProfile.cfm?id=149

          Yes, I squarely blame unions for our failing auto industry – AND, of course, strangling government regulation.

          Did you know that the Toyota, Honda, and Nissan plants in the USA pay their workers an average of $96K per year – a hefty sum to say the least. However, the Detroit Big Three pay an average of 150K?

          And we wonder why they’re failing. (Well, I don’t wonder; I know why.)

        • #2990194

          So You’re Saying

          by thechas ·

          In reply to More Union madness

          So, you are saying that workers should not have the right to join together and work for better working conditions and compensation?

          Does that also mean that a CEO should not have an agent and a lawyer to negotiate 7 and 8 figure incomes for them?

          I don’t take exception to the fact that US autoworkers have ended up placing a high labor cost on the US auto companies.

          I do take exception to anyone claiming that the labor cost is the ONLY or even the major reason that the US auto companies are in deep trouble.

          Yes, labor costs are a contributing factor to the problems that the big 3 are facing. But, the biggest problem is the lack of planning for the future and foresight to bring forth new products and technology.

          Initial cost is not the big thing killing Detroit in the new car market. It is perceived value and cost of ownership that is at issue.

          What percentage of GM cars will make it to 200,000 miles without major repairs?
          What percentage of Toyota cars will exceed that mark?

          Detroit may have caught up with initial build quality. They still lag way behind in cost of ownership and long term reliability.

          Look at any reliability and repair index you wish, you won’t find a US car that matches let alone exceeds a Japanese car of the same class.

          The US auto industry still thinks that the Vega is the proper response to the Corolla.

          That is what is really sad.

          Chas

        • #2990155

          I think he’s saying

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to So You’re Saying

          companies shouldn’t be forced to pay workers who aren’t working. This started happening when technology allowed machines to do what men used to do.

        • #2991689

          I love it (not really) when people say, “So You’re Saying”.

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to So You’re Saying

          I’m saying just what I said, no more, no less. I suppose you can extrapolate from that, twist and turn it any way you want, and suggest I’m saying something I’m not – which is what you just did.

          [i]So, you are saying that workers should not have the right to join together and work for better working conditions and compensation?[/i]

          Of course they do. They (the workers) can do whatever they want – as long as it’s legal. I also believe the company has a right to can the whole bunch of them and become a non-union shop. I also believe the company has a right to do what it has to do in order to survive and compete in the market place. I also believe that the workers, should they decide to [i]join together and work for better working conditions and compensation[/i], should also be willing to accept and be responsible for the outcome they helped create.

          What you probably don’t realize is that we’re on the verge of having taxpayers subsidize (or entirely pay for) the 50k – 100k per year retirement benefits for former employees of a failed company, not to mention set the same stage for current ones. How can that possibly be justified as being fair to some poor bloke in South Dakota?

          [i] I do take exception to anyone claiming that the labor cost is the ONLY or even the major reason that the US auto companies are in deep trouble.[/i]

          You can [i]take exception[/i] to that all you want. But other than demonizing corporate management, playing the class-envy game, you offer absolutely nothing. What I suggest is more than simply labor cost. Sure, several factors would point to the failure of the industry, but the unions have been just as major a driving force behind the direction of the auto industry as have the corporate big-shots. They BOTH made major decisions together, and they BOTH should fail together, and they BOTH should shoulder ALL the blame – WITH those who forced too much over regulation on the industry.

          The auto industry has always been one of balance between offering a product the consumer wants, and trying to define great new stuff that they hope the consumer will buy. It’s easy to say that nobody [i]needs[/i] an SUV or a 600 hp Corvette, but people don’t really [i]need[/i] a 60″ plasma HD color television set either. Why demonize one and not the other?

          http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4292379.html

          I suppose in a way, Chas, we’re both right. Poor business decisions plus unreasonable union demands, then throw-in legislators in Congress who think they know how to run an automobile company combined with a down-turn in the economy, and it all equals a failed company and/or industry.

          My solution? Let it fail, let it correct its own mistakes, let it design a new business model, etc. That might not be a pretty option, but it’s better than having the already over-burdened taxpayers prop up what was a failed model in the first place.

        • #2991687

          Collectivism – in ANY form – almost always turns out to be. . . . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to So You’re Saying

          …..what kills the goose that lays the golden eggs.

          Collectivism, to me, is evil. (Please don’t extrapolate anything from that which was not intended – “So what you’re saying is….”)

        • #2991679

          The Only Reason to Prop Up the Auto Industry

          by thechas ·

          In reply to So You’re Saying

          The only reason to even consider propping up the US auto industry is the same reason that was used to justify the financial industry bail-out. If (and I think it’s a big IF) the economists that speculate that if any one of the big 3 go under that will send the US economy into a full depression, then, there is a “value” in propping up the industry.

          However, if the case can be made that the overall economy is strong enough to withstand the impact of the any industry or institution going under, then the US auto industry (or any other company) should be allowed to fail and die.

          Propping up the big 3 makes no more sense to me than the war in Iraq does. In neither instance is US government interaction doing anything more than delaying the inevitable.

          Even if we prop up the auto industry through the current financial crisis, they will still continue to shrink and loose market share. I would not be surprised that in another 20 years if Toyota faces the same crisis from the Chinese and Indian car companies.

          Though, Max does point out another reason to prop up the auto companies. When the auto companies go under, so will the pension funds. This leaves the government run pension guarantee fund attempting to fill in for at least all of the retirees (both union and salaried) that are too old or too sick to work. That plus the sudden increase of people who will be relying on Medicare will break the system.

          That said, the best way to prop up the US auto industry would not be with direct loans or subsidies. Give each tax-payer a stimulus check that could only be used toward the purchase of a new car with a minimum of say 75% US material and labor content. Even if it was only $1,000 each, if you allowed people to sell and trade the certificates, you would end up with some decent economic stimulus.

          Chas

        • #2991676

          A final thought on “So you’re saying”

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to So You’re Saying

          I’ve seen it so many times. A person can’t concede a point, or bring himself to agree on a point ….. he wants to disagree, but he can’t without losing credibility; so he says, [i]”So you’re saying”[/i], misrepresenting what was really said, and disagrees with that.

          What’s that called? A straw-man argument?

          Sorry, Chas – no straw-men allowed. (You can do better than that.)

        • #2991674

          Comparing the Chevrolet Vega to the Toyota Corolla

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to So You’re Saying

          The Chevrolet Vega (sold from 1971 through 1977) was a piece of crap.

          The Toyota Corolla (as sold from 1971 through 1977) was a piece of crap.

          One would be hard-pressed to see either on the road in 1987.

          What’s your point?

        • #2991672

          There’s a HUGE difference

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to So You’re Saying

          Chas said, [i]”The only reason to even consider propping up the US auto industry is the same reason that was used to justify the financial industry bail-out.”[/i]

          This difference is this:

          The financial industry affects 100 percent of the economy. – it IS the economy.

          The automobile industry is but a small percentage of that – a subset, if you will.

          How big does a subset need to be to warrant a bail-out?

        • #2989957

          Funny Thing Chas

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to So You’re Saying

          that you mention the check for an auto. I thought similarly for the economic stimulus checks. They should have sent out something like a gift check, something that has to be spent, not deposited.
          just my opinion on that though.

        • #2989755

          re: The only reason

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to So You’re Saying

          [i]The only reason to even consider propping up the US auto industry is the same reason that was used to justify the financial industry bail-out.[/i]

          Which shouldn’t have been done either…

          It’s like:

          “Hey, Taxpayer, loan me some money….”

          “How are you going to pay it back, Business?”

          “By raising the price you pay for my goods or services, of course.”

          They should ALL be let to fail! If there’s a demand, others will spring up to meet that demand.

        • #2989754

          Why can’t…

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to So You’re Saying

          [i]How big does a subset need to be to warrant a bail-out? [/i]

          ..they borrow money from the banks that got bailed out? 🙂

        • #2991524

          What Max and Tony Left Out

          by thechas ·

          In reply to So You’re Saying

          What you both left out of your critique on my post on propping up the auto industry was the detail that followed:

          “If (and I think it’s a big IF) the economists that speculate that if any one of the big 3 go under that will send the US economy into a full depression, then, there is a “value” in propping up the industry.

          However, if the case can be made that the overall economy is strong enough to withstand the impact of any industry or institution going under, then the US auto industry (or any other company) should be allowed to fail and die.

          Propping up the big 3 makes no more sense to me than the war in Iraq does. In neither instance is US government interaction doing anything more than delaying the inevitable.”

          Yes, I begrudgingly accepted that the financial institution bailout was necessary.

          And, I have posted that in my opinion the big 3 should be allowed to fail. Even though I know that the end result of any part of the US auto industry failing would mean a significant tax increase in Michigan just to maintain basic government services. Not to mention the increase cost of welfare and medicaid for those who refuse to move elsewhere to seek employment.

          FYI, rural Michigan (especially North of Lansing) is dotted with communities that are very impoverished. They were once factory towns. When the factory closed, far too many people choose to stay where they were rather than seek new jobs elsewhere. So the precedence is set for Detroit, Flint and Lansing to follow the same path.

          Chas

        • #2991506

          Re: So You’re Saying

          by thechas ·

          In reply to So You’re Saying

          Sorry Max, I call them as I see them.

          Be it overcompensated CEO’s or windfall profits for any company and you are Johnny on the spot to defend them.

          Let the working man do something to get a fair and decent cut of the pie, and they are the most vile evil group on the planet.

          Do I like the fact that the average autoworker makes more than I do and has better benefits? No.

          Do I want their job, or feel that they should be required to take a drastic cut in their wages. Again, NO.

          In every financial related thread we have had you are always on the side of helping out the poor billionaires that make up the top 5% of the economy, and shifting all of the burden onto the working men and women who make this country run.

          If we have learned anything these last 8 years it is that tax cuts for the rich do not promote the long term growth required to keep the economy growing. It is only when we provide paths for those on the bottom to move up that sustained growth can happen.

          Chas

        • #2974843

          yup, and or but

          by xnavydk ·

          In reply to Side Question – What’s wrong with Michigan? One word.

          Unions were a great idea that got distorted by personal/group greed.

          edited for spelling. Try it OZ.

        • #2974622

          I honestly do not understand

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Side Question – What’s wrong with Michigan? One word.

          why every taxpayer in the country isn’t literally [b]up in arms[/b] at the prospect of using tax money to bail out these clowns (or any of the other clowns for that matter). Where are they going to get the money to pay “us” back?

          [b]From us!!!!![/b]

          Maybe [b]every[/b] employee of every bailed out company should be taxed 100% of all of their income above poverty level until it is paid back!

        • #2977431

          another Side Question

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to No Reported Incident

          Unions have lost influence and/or membership in all but one industry. Which industry would that be? Which [i]industry[/i] will be the next one destroyed by unions – leaving the taxpayers holding the empty bag?

        • #2977369

          Yeah

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to another Side Question

          “You go girl!” (DOUBLE FINGER SNAP!!)

        • #2977324

          Where Did This Come From?

          by thechas ·

          In reply to another Side Question

          Who brought up unions in this thread?

          As far as the US auto industry is concerned, sure the wage and benefit package the unions won in contract negotiations are a contributing factor to the impending demise of the industry. However, the US auto industry lost the battle back in the early 70’s. They just did not know it.

          The US auto industry response to inexpensive well built cars from Japan were the Chevy Vega, the Ford Pinto, the Dodge Omni, and the AMC Gremlin. Detroit got it very wrong. They presumed that people wanted cheap cars. What people wanted was cars that were inexpensive to own and comfortable to ride in. Now, we are getting to the third generation of car buyers who have owned nothing but foreign brand cars.

          Farmers in Michigan are buying Toyota pickups not because they cost less, but because they are designed to last.

          I have yet to speak with any engineer or designer who works for the big 3 or their suppliers who believes the industry is even trying to get it right.

          And, what does the big 3 do when they do have a profits? Do they invest in research or product development? Heck no, they buy other car companies when the price is high and then sell them off when the price is low. Witness the recent sale of Jaguar to TATA motors.

          By the way, I don’t think the taxpayers should bail out the big 3. They are well on their way to following Leyland into the dust. The US big 3 are going to collapse from there own weight. With or without union wages.

          Chas

      • #2975869

        You know..

        by maecuff ·

        In reply to This breaking news just in

        I really don’t like to shop this time of year. And I REALLy avoid Walmart. However, there is one close by and they had something I wanted to get for my 10 year old. Against my better judgement, I ventured out very early Friday morning. (not early enough as they were sold out of the item in question). Anyway, I was knocked into by a bleach blonde pyschopath as she was trying to get to a TV. I wasn’t interested in the TV. I was merely walking in the direction of the TV. She saw this as a threat and actually shoved me out the way. People bug this piss out of me.

        • #2975865

          You Should have

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to You know..

          worn a sign — Not Interested in TV’s

          wait, you probably would have been shoved by a transvestite then :0

        • #2975720

          Or

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to You Should have

          an illiterate 🙂

        • #2975596

          :^0

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Or

          Yes, I forgot about dem

        • #2974841

          I love the disclaimer

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to You know..

          It is very common for people to explain why they had to goto WalMart as a prerequisite for shopping.

          I get your point and agree that those low brow stores cater to the worst of the country’s consumers and nobody want to be associated with them. You could host a series of “Americans gone bad” episodes at a single WalMart location.

          I get your comment, I think I’d be mroe inclined to say something though, like “Hey what the f-k’s YOUR problem, skank!?” before explaining that the TV she is looking at is third rate Chinese junk that is available for less at SuperStore. Or else I’d jump on it and take it to a checkout, and then decide not to buy it and leave it at the checkout.
          Just to pi$$ her off and get her anxiety, insults and rants going strong. Love watching people freakout over nothing!

          I have had to shop at WalMart a couple of times myself. Last minute stocking stuffers, you know that holiday candy crap and the other checkout impulse items.

          But that’s it for me, never bought clothes, electronics or anything else there, yet (but never say never, WalMart just may run Canada one day).

    • #2975531

      Black Friday

      by the scummy one ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      Yes, I went out early this year and few lines until after 10:.
      Then I went to Costco — because I figured everyone was at different stores shopping.
      Good call in my opinion, I had fewer lines at Costco than normal 😀

      then I went home and looked online a little for a few items. Lo and Behold — All of the items I looked at were cheaper from the manufacturer than from the stores sales :0

      I looked at my receipts from these super sales and am thinking about taking them back now…

      There are some good deals in the stores, but is it worth the hassle? Looking at a store here, I am finding items that I did not see in the physical store, and at a good price.

      I think I am shopping online for the rest of the day

      • #2975526

        I’ve been shopping online

        by boxfiddler ·

        In reply to Black Friday

        since I went back to school and work. Get it done in about an hour and a half, no headbutts from lunatics trying to beat me to the last whatever the hell it is.

        Sweet.

    • #2975518

      Obviously

      by tonythetiger ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      One or more of those people committed a crime and it is being investigated.

      By the way, Oz, the woman didn’t miscarry.

    • #2975512

      We’ll know

      by santeewelding ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      If in the next few days there are scattered reports of goings into rooms, closing the door, and doing the right thing.

      Somehow, I doubt it.

      • #2975341

        Multiple liablities

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to We’ll know

        The parents can sue teh store for unsuitable security provisions, WalMart’s insurance should pay out a tidy sum.

        They think have already identified several people (6, I think it said) and are looking at ways to press charges so that the victims can open civil cases for double liability.

    • #2975510

      Thats just very sad and unbelievable

      by av . ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      Personally, I don’t go anywhere near the stores on Black Friday. Its just absolutely frenzied and sick. I don’t see how that gets you into the holiday spirit. Shopping on Black Friday is like vying for red meat in the lion’s cage.

      I usually do my shopping online or go off-hours to the local outlets and quaint mom and pop type stores that offer a more pleasant holiday shopping experience than a mall or a Walmart.

      Whats very sad about the Walmart incident is that Walmart, at least the ones near my home, usually hire people with disabilities to greet shoppers when they enter the store. I don’t know if that is true in this case, but its certainly possible.

      This time of year people forget the spirit of the season. They are rude, have no manners and will fight you for a parking space or that special item they want if you should happen to pick up the last one. Its just a sad commentary.

      Heres what happened to me a couple of years ago at a Michael’s craft store in NJ. It wasn’t on Black Friday, but maybe a week later. I found a silk Poinsettia plant that I liked. There were plenty left, maybe 20 or 25. As I put one in my cart, a man came up to me and grabbed it out of my cart. He said, “I’m already buying that. I’m buying them all.” (what he left out is the BWAHAHAHA). Then he walked away and started putting them all in his cart.

      I was speechless that anyone would do that. He was just obsessed or probably buying them to sell on ebay. I just let people like that go. They are sad people and honestly, as a woman, that mentality scares me. Don’t even want to go there.

      Thankfully, most people behave themselves, but if you have large crowds of people waiting for hours to get into a Walmart, mob mentality starts to take over. It can really happen anywhere.

      Alright, you had your rant about us Americans. For some of us, it is rightfully earned. Not all of us are civilized or have manners, unfortunately. I think that happens everywhere though, not just here.

      Walmart and other stores that offer doorbuster sales, need to have better security if they have something like that. You can’t leave it up to the crowd.

      AV

      • #2975508

        Woman or no

        by santeewelding ·

        In reply to Thats just very sad and unbelievable

        Snapping an arm at the elbow is easy. Then you walk away with another plant amid the screaming and clamor.

      • #2975481

        Believe it or not, AV

        by tig2 ·

        In reply to Thats just very sad and unbelievable

        That man would have found himself with a cart in the
        crotch had it been me. I don’t tolerate obscene behavior
        well. Something very fundamental in me knows that my
        inner b*tch would have had something to say.

        And I wouldn’t have bothered with the plant either.

        The guy would have definitively learned that he was out of
        line. Period. We, ourselves, are the best tools for
        teaching our “fellow Americans” when they cross the line.

        I will concede that your approach is taking a higher road.

        • #2975477

          Higher

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to Believe it or not, AV

          And all together too, too petite.

          I do like your point that it comes down to each one of us.

        • #2975290

          You just never know about people though anymore

          by av . ·

          In reply to Believe it or not, AV

          There are some real sickos in our society. Years ago I probably would have confronted that guy, but today, I think twice. You never know when an idiot like that has a gun.

          Someone like that is just hell-bent, so now I just get out of the way and let them continue on to that destination.

          AV

      • #2975340

        I agree

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Thats just very sad and unbelievable

        But is this really what we have come to?

        “You can’t leave it up to the crowd.”

        Why not? I have seen people push and shove and, without prejudice, it is common on public transit and in stores for Oriental people to push and shove their way through (getting a lot of wierd looks). However it is simply a result of their overpopulated cities and is usually not too bad and I can understand how they become that way in public crowds.

        I have been at Vancouver’s largest, most sought out boxing day sales; the crowd is just a long but tidy line of people tucked against the wall outside. The doors open and they let ‘X; number of people in at a time and manage it that way, people wait patiently in line for their turn.

        That’s even at the BIGGEST electronic blowout center in the heart of downtown Vancouver that is famous for its boxing day sales.

        I’m not saying we don’t get out of hand, but
        the Stanley Cup riots and GNR concert riot in Vancouver are not exactly the same thing as holiday shopping at a family oriented discount store, thats just a display of unfathomable ignorance in society.

    • #2975405

      another in Palm Desert

      by dr dij ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      home of the 1,500 acre Living Desert zoo and gardens
      http://www.livingdesert.org

      some d*rka** shot someone else in a Toys’R’Us store friday sale.

      Since someone carried their gun into the store, I’m guessing this was not about toys but about gang members or something like that. Not much detail on the news yet.

      • #2975337

        Ooops

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to another in Palm Desert

        didn’t notice your post when I posted below.

        I think police said that it ws a rivalry between two men, but not specifically gang or drug related.

        pretty sure the link in my post (below) noted something like that.

        • #2977259

          What was really cool about this one…

          by dr dij ·

          In reply to Ooops

          was that they both KILLED EACH OTHER!!

          Two less stupid people in the world, thinning the herd, etc.

          Now if all the bad drivers in the world would just run into each other and not me, and take each other out two at a time…

          With my luck there would be an odd number of bad drivers so there’d still be one left.

        • #2976581

          nice theory but

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to What was really cool about this one…

          Once all teh bad drivers are killed off, do you then start eleminiating the worst of the remaining bunch? Let me guess that YOU would be teh only one left, of course. 😀

          ( I know I would, NOBODY drives as well as me….)

    • #2975342

      And a shooting at Toys R Us Too!!!!

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      Max, you can add this one to your list of soothing links to send to the WalMart employees mom.

      http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-toystoreshooting29-2008nov29,0,5989270.story

      [i]Before police shut down the store, eager shoppers streamed past emergency crews as they worked furiously to save the store clerk’s life.

      “They were working on him, but you could see he was dead, said Halcyon Alexander, 29. “People were still coming through.”

      Only a few stopped.

      “They’re savages,” said shopper Kimberly Cribbs, 27. “It’s sad. It’s terrible.”[/i]

    • #2975269

      Avoid the Chain Stores

      by thechas ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      Many years ago, my wife and I used to get up and shop the early morning Friday sales. We stopped going when the crowds started getting too large.

      Also, when you consider that people are now lining up as early as Wednesday evening to get into places like Best Buy, it makes you wonder how little people value their free time.

      Back when my wife and I were shopping the morning sales, there were a few decent bargains at each store. The whole idea was to get people into the stores earlier in the day in order to spread out the day after Thanksgiving shopping crowd.

      Now that they have established the early morning of the Friday after Thanksgiving as a major bargain hunt, the retailers should take it upon themselves to reduce the size of the markdowns and increase the quantity of each item that is available. That way, there would not be the mad rush to beat everyone else into the store so that you could get yours.

      Until the major retailers wise up and reduce the incentives for the mad rush, shop your local stores and give out more unique and thoughtful gifts.

      Chas

      • #2975266

        Give unique and thoughtful gifts.

        by boxfiddler ·

        In reply to Avoid the Chain Stores

        I agree with that sentiment. Thoughtless gifts strike me as a real waste.

      • #2975258

        It’s not just the stores

        by the scummy one ·

        In reply to Avoid the Chain Stores

        that are the problem. If people looked around a bit, they would know that there are good deals all over the place.
        Many of the deals to be found in the store are also offered online. As well, many stores have better deals online than in the store.

        Furthermore, there are many competing products out there. For instance, the $799 Sears ‘big deal’ plasma tv, similar deals could be found at Costco, Fry’s, Best Buy, Amazon.com, etc., etc., etc…

        As for the mob rush, that is plain asinine. In the Wal-Mart instance, they broke the door down to stampede. Then when the announcement was made that the store was closing, these dipsh!ts still tried shopping, filling their carts.

        Those at Toys ‘R Us was just a sad incident. 2 women get in a fight and their men start shooting at each other. WTF? In a Toy store filled with kids no less, running down the aisles firing guns.
        These kinds of things show how society in general is deteriorating.
        Hopefully, this kind of cr@p will reduce in the future

        • #2977381

          women get in a fight and their men start shooting at each other.

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to It’s not just the stores

          I bet you a million dollars that BOTH of those men would sit on TR all day and complain about how THEY are responsible gun owners and that lock up and properly use theor weapons at a range only, unless for emergency protection and that they should have a right to automatic weapons.

          There are many reasons I have the opinions I do, this would be example #210B that I don’t oppose greater gun purchase control and limitations.

        • #2977377

          I disagree

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to women get in a fight and their men start shooting at each other.

          they are likely the type to show off their weapon at any chance, and keep it loaded always.
          Heck, I doubt they know that the Internet is more than porn and myspace.

        • #2977368

          Not so sure

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I disagree

          It is to ocommon for the normal married family man to do such things, just finally snapping.

          “We asked the neighbours if Mr. Smith, a professional and rather mainstream American had shown signs of his instability before”

          ”He’s always been a quiet, neighbour, seemed to be a nice family man and plays with his kids all the time. I just didn’t see it coming! To have a man kill his entire family in MY neighbourhood is quite a shock!”

        • #2977367

          Maybe in the Movies!

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Not so sure

          These were young punks. Get over it already, do you really think that all we Americans ever do is go to toy stores and start shooting people?
          These are not common acts at all.

        • #2975592

          Yeah that’s what I said

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Maybe in the Movies!

          Way to go, I see the hooked on phonics is failing you though.

          Perhaps a little comprehension training as to understand what is actually written, not what you form in your overly defensive mind, would help.

        • #2976871

          Maybe writing what you mean

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Maybe in the Movies!

          or clarify better would help. What comprehension problem? This is EXACTLY what opinion would be formed when reading your post

          Let me clarify
          “It is to ocommon for the normal married family man to do such things, just finally snapping. ”

          Does this not suggest that it is common or nearly common?
          How else should it have been interpreted?

        • #2976806

          No, they weren’t “young punks” at all

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Maybe in the Movies!

          First of all you think that I said it was common for such incidents to occur. That I did not say at all, and the grammar was rather clear and concise.

          I explained that it is common, in such cases, that it is a normal, middle aged family man that just snaps.

          IN this case you suggest it ws two young punks, I have read numerous articles on the shooting and right from the start, it was noted that they were men with their wives, not young punks. again this shows a lack of reading comprehension skills on your part.

          The young punks have been identified now:
          “The dead men were identified by police as Alejandro Moreno, 39 (Young punk!), and Juan Meza, 28 (Whipper snapper!), of Cathedral City. Two handguns were recovered at the scene.”

          They entered the store with their wives, and were legally carrying concealed weapons when past differences escalated as their wives had a fight, resulting in the two men shooting one another.

          So once again for the reading impaired,

          :It is to ocommon for the normal married family man to do such things, just finally snapping.

          “We asked the neighbours if Mr. Smith, a professional and rather mainstream American had shown signs of his instability before”

          “He’s always been a quiet, neighbour, seemed to be a nice family man and plays with his kids all the time. I just didn’t see it coming! To have a man kill his entire family in MY neighbourhood is quite a shock!”

          or in simpler terms, ya never know who the wiredo with the gun will be. It is not uncommon for it to be a normal, family man who just loses his head.

          I did not say that such shootings are common, but that it is common that it is a very normal, ‘guy next door’ person behind it.

        • #2976779

          Oh, this one

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Maybe in the Movies!

          was I supposed to be upset here? I am sorry, I’ll try harder next time 😀

          See, all you had to do was explain just a tad bit, or in your terms a ‘wee’ bit :^0 — JK

          and no Oz, you havent upset me. But if I am supposed to get upset, please let me know and I will try

        • #2976583

          I other words

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Maybe in the Movies!

          “I was wrong, sorry about that. I got screwed up with my facts and ranted about it and flamed you for nothing”

          But “hey if I’m supposed to get upset…” is a much easier thing to say than admitting you made a mistake and didn’t get your facts straight before ranting and flaming.

        • #2974807

          Look Oz

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Maybe in the Movies!

          I wasnt upset, havent gotten upset, nor even gave it much of a thought. If I got a few facts wrong, I apologize, however I never flamed anyone, just disagreed. When I read the original articles on Yahoo, all it stated was the 2 women got in a fight — nothing about what/why. then 1 of the ‘boyfriends was listed’ pulled up his jersey to flash a gun, the second one, pulled out his gun and then they ran through aisles shooting at each other.

          As far as what you stated, I was commenting on the statement alone, that it was too common — I do not see it as common at all. This statement made as is suggests a common incident when in reality it is not common.

          I would have stated that it happens too often, and this I would not have challenged.

          If you took offense, it was not intended, nor should I apologize for how you took it. But, you are totally wrong if you think for even a second that I was flaming you, or getting upset, or whatever. Just trying to explain a bit. If you take offense to this post, you need medical help. I know that HAL has a therepy session starting soon, maybe you should join up 😀 :^0

        • #2974791

          Comprehension

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Maybe in the Movies!

          “It is too common for the normal married family man to do such things, just finally snapping.”

          The comma, just finally snapping shows exactly what I think is TOO common.

          Normal, married family man, just snapping, is too common.

          This does nto mean that shoot outs in Toys R Us are common, I didn’ teven mention toys r us or shootings, but that such incidents are commonly between normal, married family men who have simply snapped.

          It was quite clear to most English speakign people I’m sure, you just missed it that’s all.

          As for your explaining that your source was incorrect, that’s true and also why I always choose to search out several sources before forming an opinion, as most are simply unreliable.

        • #2974771

          If you got a few facts wrong

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Maybe in the Movies!

          Well you actually got them wrong and argued that my facts were skewed. The entire basis of your arguments is due to your misunderstanding of the situation.

          “Sorry, the one report I relied on and was incorrect and I didn’t understand what you meant in your comments” would be more appropriate than “I got a few facts wrong”

          No, you got he whole basis of your argument wrong.

          “[i]Get over it already, do you really think that all we Americans ever do is go to toy stores and start shooting people?

          These are not common acts at all. [/i]

          [i]”What comprehension problem? This is EXACTLY what opinion would be formed when reading your post[/i]

          NO IT ISN”T, as has been commented by another peer already.

          [i]Let me clarify [/i](this should be good!)
          [i]”It is too common for the normal married family man to do such things, just finally snapping. “[/i]

          Still doesn’t say that such shootings are common, again as a nother peer noted already.

          [i]Does this not suggest that it is common or nearly common?[/i]

          What “IT” are you referring to? I used a comma to add, ‘just finally snapping’ to explain that ‘just finally snapping’ was what I was referring to, not random shootings as you inferred.

          [i]”How else should it have been interpreted?”[/i]

          Exactly as it reads, “…, just finally snapping” Let ME clarify, ‘just finally snapping’, after a comma, illustrates what the previous part of the sentence was in reference to and THAT’s exactly how it should be interpreted, as read not as interpreted.

          If I has said “blah blah, shooting up Toys-R-Us” you’d have a point; but I didn’t, so you don’t.

          Titles:

          [b]”Maybe in the Movies”[/b]

          [b]”Maybe writing what you mean”[/b]

          Yeah, no intent to flame me, just a ITSY BITSY little slip with one tiny part of a misunderstanding, I get it.

          See, most humans would see that as an argument based on false statements and a lack of understanding due to poor comprehension skills.

          Call it what you want, whatever makes you feel better. Anyone with a brain can read it themselves and hopefully have enough comprehension skills to figure it out too.

        • #2977871

          I seriously doubt that, Oz

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to women get in a fight and their men start shooting at each other.

          California has extremely strict laws regarding concealed
          carry and carrying publicly. When I lived there, in order to
          transport my legal weapon to the range, it had to be
          unloaded and locked in a box in the trunk. I had to carry
          the locked box and open it in the presence of the range
          master who identified the weapon, insured that it was not
          loaded and assigned me a lane. I could not change my
          lane without the permission of the range master and
          could not enter an occupied lane. When finished, the
          range master validated that the weapon was unloaded and
          I locked it back in the box and locked the box in the
          trunk.

          It is amazingly difficult to get a permit to carry. You must
          either transport large sums of money as a part of your job
          or have a minimum of a PI license or be able to prove to
          people who don’t want people carrying concealed that
          you have a REALLY good reason- constant danger to life
          and limb may or may not qualify.

          The people who post here on gun control wouldn’t break
          known existing laws. In fact, most of them are more
          conversant with their local laws than most. That’s WHY we
          have gun safes in our homes, and biometric keepers to
          lock up any weapon not stored in a safe.

          Having read the LA Times story, my guess is that they
          were gang bangers.

        • #2976804

          And you see that as teh rule

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I seriously doubt that, Oz

          And not a general exception to the rule?

          I would say there are far more unaware and irresponsible gun owners in America than not, though I could be wrong.

        • #2977814

          Those ‘men’

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to women get in a fight and their men start shooting at each other.

          don’t qualify as men.
          IMO.

        • #2976803

          ?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Those ‘men’

          Married, one 39, one 28 seem like men to me. In a toy store with their wives buying toys for teh family? seems like men, must be employed.

          Their wives have had a long time issue, they were arguning and the ‘men’ came ot shots with one another.

          Yeah, I think its childish and cowardly too, you’d be much better of just punching it out if you really must, rpeferrably outside.

          But as far as facts vs emotions, they were grown, married family men.

        • #2974630

          Male subhuman maybe.

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to ?

          Men, no.

        • #2974847

          Oh it will

          by xnavydk ·

          In reply to It’s not just the stores

          Those two are dead if I am not mistaken. 2 down, more to go? they keep having kids that learn that behavior. So in reality they kill each other but they have more in the wings. I am getting nowhere with this… I have created an infinite loop in my head..

      • #2977832

        I think retailers like Walmart should provide security

        by av . ·

        In reply to Avoid the Chain Stores

        And Toys-R-Us. If they have a doorbuster sale, they need to control the crowd, especially on Black Friday.

        Shoppers need to get a grip. Why is lining up at any store a day or so early even allowed in the first place?

        I think big-box retailers like Walmart should continue to have their doorbuster sales, but only if they provide security and crowd control.

        I never go shopping on Black Friday either. Too crowded. I like to go to the local stores and outlets. Its a nicer, more leisurely atmosphere. Or, I shop online.

        AV

        • #2977826

          I allow as how

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to I think retailers like Walmart should provide security

          It’s hard being petite in the press of humanity. Maybe niceties are not the way to go, unless you manage having nothing to do with us at all.

        • #2977819

          Last Year

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to I think retailers like Walmart should provide security

          Wal-Mart had provided ‘crowd control’ at many stores. From what I saw online and driving by one, there was a heavy Police presence outside, and for opening, inside. If I remember correctly, it was due to fights and trampling from 2 years ago due to a cheap notebook

        • #2974670

          Who at fault though

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I think retailers like Walmart should provide security

          Okay, WalMart SHOULD have had security, ToysRUs sure did when they repoened.

          BUT, what happened to personal responsiblity?

          This is a MOB mentality, it is one that says if we are not stopped, we will act like a mob without any human restraint at all. Even animals don’t mob like that!

          WalMart SHOULD have had help, but that aside, and noticing there WAS no security, shoppers should take matters into their own hands and get a grip on it.

          To have people ignoring tranpled people in the doorway is insane, when I’ve seen someone fall inside a door (happens a lot in concert rushes for the GA floor), the mass stops and the person is picked up again. Then they eagerly run to get their spot in front of the stage.

          But for shoppers at a family store to do so, continue to tramples another person to DEATH, knock a pregnant woman down, STILL not stop to help and then complain when the store is closed to take care of the dead person, that is just a disgusting display of humans with no argument to not be killed off for the betterment of the planet.

          Nazi soldiers demonstrated better restraint and respect for mankind than that.

          And to think THESE are the same voting voices that make ‘qualified’ decisions as to who will lead your nation, WOW!

    • #2977730

      How to slow down when in Wal-Mart:

      by captbilly1eye ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      [b]Play Wal-Mart Bingo![/b]

      http://tinyurl.com/57jnvz

    • #2975870

      I agree 100%

      by cmiller5400 ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      I refuse to shop on the day after Thanksgiving. I won’t be a party to the madness, bickering, fighting etc. Besides, my sleep is more important than being up at 3 AM to find a spot in line to save a lousy $20 bucks.

      “A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.”, Agent K, [i]Men in Black[/i]

    • #2975593

      Has happened before

      by slslusher ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      Things like this have happened before. People fighting over new toys their kids want or the new games and game systems that come out. Glad to hear there really are people out there that care. It’s sickening to see people act this way and not care that they just ended someone’s life.

      Sherry

    • #2975590

      C–eh. N-eh? D-eehhh.

      by jimcarroll ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      > “US mindset that makes people not want to help others (welfare etc.) as you are taught to not let someone else have what you earned, to not let others get more than you and to always come out on top; survival of the fittest.”

      Yep, yep, we’re all this way, eh. Better stay away.

      Nothing like that could ever happen in Canada, eh. There were more people milling outside that WalMart store in New York than live in several major Canadian “cities” put together.

      About “welfare” – LBJ declared “War” on poverty back in 1965. We’ve since spent more on social welfare programs than we have spent on the actual wars since the Revolution. And we seem to have more poor people than we have ever had. Our poorest are probably about as well off as the median income-earners in most civilized countries.

      From what I could gather of your semi-skilled typing, it seems you don’t like WalMart’s merchandise. That’s where we completely agree. Not long ago, I read about a problem that closed down China’s largest lead mine. “Uh-oh”, I thought to myself, “There’s going to be a toy shortage down at WalMart…”

      • #2975588

        You got it wrong

        by the scummy one ·

        In reply to C–eh. N-eh? D-eehhh.

        Oz doesnt just dislike Wal-Mart, he is always on the lookout to slam the USA, and anything that comes from here.

        • #2976801

          Still upset are you?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to You got it wrong

          Funny how when people get upset they resort to the third party in order to seek some common opinion and support. Its fun to fabricate and form opinions, even when completely incorrect.

          But pathetic and weak too, even if you did know what you were talking about.

          You while away the hours, conferrin’ with the flowers
          Consultin’ with the rain.
          And your head you’d be a scratchin’ while
          your thoughts were busy hatchin’
          If you only had a brain.

          You’d unravel every riddle for any individ’le,
          In trouble or in pain.
          With the thoughts you’d be thinkin’
          you could be another Lincoln
          If you only had a brain.

          Oh, you could tell them why The ocean’s near the shore.
          You could think of things you’d never thunk before.
          And then you’d sit, and think some more.
          You would not be just a nothin’ your head all full of stuffin’
          Your heart all full of pain.
          You would dance and be merry, life would be a ding-a-derry,
          If you only had a brain.

        • #2976780

          upset??

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Still upset are you?

          seeking comfort of opinion in a 3rd party??

          Not at all, why would I be?

          All I did was inform the 3rd party not to get riled up cause this is normal behavior. You really must have a bigger ego than I thought :^0

          wait — no, I think (or is it thunk) that I knew it was even bigger than this.

          Now, where-oh-where did I put my brain???

        • #2976582

          just dont sit down

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to upset??

          If you jump up and down I’m sure it’ll fall out of your arse again.

      • #2974644

        well you screwed up the joke

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to C–eh. N-eh? D-eehhh.

        But I am not Canadian anyway, just live here and love BC for the recreation. The people, for the most part, suck and so does the government, as do all governments that we don’t personally run ourselves.

        Must say though that after watching the poor organization and resulting loss of merchandise income at the Tacoma dome this past weekend, it doesn’t surprise me that this sh1t happens.

        A couple were well done, but these private merch companies that bands hire locally are useless, they lost a lot of money that could have been made and their jobs wer a lot harder because of poor organization. It happens all over the US at shows though, that’s why MOST bands these days take their merch organizers on tour in the USA and farm it out elsewhere, its too costly to watch unorganized people try to handle it for them.

        Had ot take out a few people myself who were just too unruly to be left alone, and security doesn’t give a toss about them, it seems that beligerant drunks are deemed acceptable public behaviour.

        One was mauling a 16 year old girl in a line up, with his wife holding his other hand he was grabbing her butt, she turned around a few time sbut he was grey haired and very drunk so she thought it was coming from somewhere else I guess, until he stumbled and fell on the young girl’s mother, slurring ‘saarrry bout that, ##@Y^&#’.

        So I smiled at his wife and, with a little persuasion, politely escorted him out of the crowd. where his wife started in on him for being so drunk, I didn’t tell her about the little girl though, she seemed somewhat flattered anyway.

        A guy in front of me at the show got out of hand too, and started in on his wife, I gave it a few minutes before I’d had enough so I just asked him to go for a walk, had a chat by teh beer garden, even bought him a beer and then explained to his wife that he had decided to stay there and meet her at tha car after the show, which he seemed ot do as he never came back.

        This is what it takes to deal with general public in America, in 12 years workign as a scurity foreman with major touring bands, hocke games etc. I’ve seem a lot of fights, bounced a lot of people but I have yet to see a more disrespectful and irresponsible bunhc than at US shows.

        Yeha yeah, bashing America, shoe fits wear it. I have seen or worked at more shows in the US than probably most of you combined, so I do speak form experience. Even the bands are gettign tired of it and spend more time in Europe now, where the fans are great.

    • #2975572

      How about a proof read???

      by bwesley ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      Have you ever thought of proof reading your articles that get published. With all of the spelling programs available, there’s no excuse to have mistakes on pretty much every 3rd line when you’re writing in your native language. And just as a little pointer, sentences begin with a capital letter.

      • #2974666

        Yes,

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to How about a proof read???

        Everything that I publish is carefully proof read by one to three editors.

        If you are referring to TR posts, I don’t consider that ‘publishing’; just posting on a website, to people who either don’t read or don’t understand what they read anyway.

        And no, I don’t think most of the pople here warrant such time. I only use spell check in Firefox but use IE without IESpellchecker for TR. Either way, it requires no explanation to you anyway.

        If you have an issue reading due to my poor typing, I make no apologies but you can click another link if you like.

        And just a little pointer, when you are writing a number less than 100 you are supposed to spell it in full.
        ‘3rd’ should be ‘third’ unless on a prize ribbon.

        Does it really matter to you what I think?

        Therefore should it matter to me what YOU think?

        Enough about that then.

    • #2975569

      Waste of a click from my email

      by b.g.domin ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      I can’t believe this was a link in my techrepublic update emails.
      What a freakin waste of time. Once I started reading the terrible grammar and al the misspellings, I realized this was not an official report on tech, but some person’s lame rant that couldn’t care less about how they got their message across.

      • #2974665

        But you followed it, clicked it and posted anyway!

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Waste of a click from my email

        Way to make your point!

        And you wonder why it was sent to you?

        1) You read it
        2) you visited the website
        3) you posted a reply

        Well done! Way to make your stand!

        I am sure TR would thank you too.

    • #2976895

      A different look at the situation

      by tomv ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      I am very familiar with this store, and while I will not say it is the worst run WalMart I have been in (I travel a great deal and have shopped in at least 200 different WalMarts in the past 5 years), but it is near the bottom.

      But on to the real problem here. If you have ever been to WalMart when a ‘special’ item is going on sale, It is the most frustrating process. Every store sets their own policy on how to deal with the expected ‘Rush’, they can

      1) Do nothing, just let the department with the hot item worry about it (Most common answer I get when checking by calling the store the day before an item goes on sale). Unfortunately the manager of the department in question usually has no clue what to do.

      2) Have all shoppers line up at the service counter to get the hot item. Maybe 10% of the stores do this and usually only the 24 hour stores.

      3) Act like a deer in the headlights when they see the crowd. This is what happened on Friday. The problem is made worse due to the fact the in this part of the country, WalMarts are NOT 24 hour. Everywhere else, the shoppers get into the store, to the department, and a line will form under the direction of the department manager.

      Here the store was opening for the day. No one was outside managing the people waiting, so when the doors were opened everyone surged. This is TOTALLY WalMart’s fault for not having appropriate barriers and lanes for people to queue on.

      This is especially true since this store is the only one to serve well over 2 million people. I think they might have anticipated a crowd (Getting into and out of that parking lot can take 30 to 40 minutes on a weekend.) It’s not like they never saw crowds before.

      Well the Lawyers in Nassau and Queens are going to have a field day as those animals all sue WalMart.

      Someone go to jail? You might want to look at the tape, and then you know why it will not happen.

      Tom

      • #2974659

        Gadzooks!!!!

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to A different look at the situation

        “have shopped in at least 200 different WalMarts in the past 5 years”

        You admit that in a public forum? Unless you are a secret shopper to check on quality assurance, that’s scary!

        I worked for a store that was bought by WalMart. Woolco had a full service auto shop, when I was an apprentice mechanic Woolco was bought by WalMart, so I gave in my two weeks while I waited for a new apprentice assignment.

        In that two weeks they TRIED to get us to com in early and do teh morning rah rah rah but we all balked, I didn’t apply for nor did I work for WalMart.

        During that takeover period they advertised fallign prices, using their little yellow dot with a hard hat on, explaining the store in disarray. MOST of the Woolco prices were raised, nto reduced and STILL people flocked in thinking it was cheaper. When reality sunk in the corwds slowed though.
        But even with massive, supposed, sales and price cuts and early door crasher days, there is a single file line of people patiently waiting outside, they are let in in groups if the crowd is too large for all at once, but usually it’s not that bad. peopl ereally don’t care too much for US companies here, especially ones that put Canadian companies out of business and raise the prices.

        “WalMarts are NOT 24 hour:
        None of them are here, city bylaws don’t allow for 24 hour stores, unless a convenience store with unique licencing. still no morning mobs, even the busiest boxing day sale at the largest electronics discounter in the city will have a well mannered, single file line outside.

        I am a member of the Canadian Security assn. and worked as a security foreman for the Coliseum (where the Cannucks used to play)for 12 years.

        I agree that WalMart SHOULD have done more as far as security and retainin gteh crowd, but that’s NOT an excuse in any way shape or form.

        Seeing that there was no security, it is the public’s responsibliity to proceed in an orderly and respectful manner, if that sounds a bit much to ask of people, go on holiday outside the country and you’ll see people in public with manners and respect for one another. It is too common however to blame the store, “They should have had better security, we don’t know how to act like humans otherwise.”

        As for law, the police already have suspects they are still trying to wade through the tape to see where charges will be laid.

        Of course the dead man’s parents will sue the store, then will have several civil suits against the perpetrators also, a lot of court time and a lot of money indeed, all because SOME people have no respect for one another.

        • #2974609

          It is a good thing

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Gadzooks!!!!

          everyone around here has so much respect for one another…. huh?

        • #2976006

          Shut up

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to It is a good thing

          or I’ll pop a cap in your arse!

        • #2975994

          :^0

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Shut up

          :^0

        • #2975989

          I’mnotthekindofpersontokeeptalkingafterbeingtoldtoshutup,whenIamtoldtoshutu

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Shut up

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKL0kfKYwqU&feature=related

          “This rabbit knows to much”….. 😀

        • #2975963

          Shaddup shuddin up!

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I’mnotthekindofpersontokeeptalkingafterbeingtoldtoshutup,whenIamtoldtoshutu

          A classic, I wonder why new cartoons don’t have cool artwork and symphony aidio tracks anymore. Our kids get substandard cartoons these days, too vanilla and politically correct.

          I maen a Tom cat (American) chasing around Jerry (the Kraut mouse) was a gas. Rakes in the face, shovels down the throat, all kinds of nasty, horrible pain. Today it is a fricking sponge with a starfish buddy, get real.

        • #2975922

          That is why I don’t watch TV anymore

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Shaddup shuddin up!

          300 channels of nothing to watch…..

          I have brought my boys up to appreciate the classics, for tv/movies/music. Maiden is still ThingOnes favorite band.

        • #2975899

          Speaking of Maiden

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Shaddup shuddin up!

          Well speaking of metal, AC/DC tore the roof off in Tacoma the other night and Metallica Rocked last night at GM Place up here.

          The Metallica tour has been disappointing so far though. They keep changing the setlist, which is cool but the band and stage hands are not rehearsed so the songs are rough, often off tempo, the sound mix is dodgy at best and the lighting crew just wing it.

          Could/should have been MUCH louder, they always turn down at GMPlace because of the horrific echo there (new buildings have the worst sound) old wood domes are best with those 2-3 second delays.

          But all in all, ‘Tallica was pretty good but AC/DC absolutely RIPPED! Tight, rehearsed, in tune, vocals were great as he has had a few shows to get his vocal instrument tuned now, just awesome. The crowd was a joke, absolute frickin idiots all over, as i noted before I had a few run ins i had to sort out but withotu issue. Organization is a joke, I kept thinking of WalMart and people that just have no class or scruples in public it was pretty bad.

          In contrast, you could get a beer in less than 5 minutes at GM PLace. Could go from shirt stall to shirt stall to find the one you wanted in your size, seriously. In Tacoma, 45 minutes and you MAY move within about 6 people of a merch booth, but in Vancouver you could do every merch booth and rink 5 beers in the same 45 minutes. Same amount of people if not slightly more, just more organized.

          In Tacoma’s defense, the merch booths on the floor were much better. Lines were formed with barriers and staff was quick and plentiful. Up in the main concourse it was mayhem, just a mosh pit to the table and a couple of old men looking at all the tags to determine sizes and moving like sloths with the transaction machines.

          Hopefully the band has staff on hand that notices this and will refrain from hiring local merchendisers at future shows, most bands bring tehir own on tour as it is far mroe organized and efficient.

          But all in all, two shows in three days, AC/DC danced circles around Metallica, even though Metallica broke out some great old songs for the first time in years.

          Friday night is Cheech & Chong, a bit more ‘mellow’ for sure. 🙂

        • #2990245

          Listening to the radio this morning

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Shaddup shuddin up!

          they were talking about AC/DC concert here (Lamont and Tonelli). They stated that it was a better concert than AC/DC several years ago. They were going on and on about how good it was.

          So, I guess reviews are in — if you like concerts, AC/DC is one to see 😀

    • #2976881

      Stereotyping is not productive

      by david.mckinney ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      Out of 300,000,000 people in the US, we certainly have our share of loosers who couldn’t care less about their neighbors. This tragic story is about them. It’s not about me and it’s not about the millions of other Americans who find this crime sickening. My first feelings were compassion and sorrow for those poor people who lost their lives for such a pointless reason. I also felt for those who were pressed through the doors by the surging crowd. Can you imagine the force on your body being pressed through a door. That’s scary!

      Capitalism is not evil, it’s a very good and healthy way to keep innovation moving. Capitalism doesn’t corrupt people, people corrupt capitalism.

    • #2976876

      WHAT THE PROJECT FOR A NEW AMERICAN CENTURY BROUGHT US

      by wordznpics ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      This unfortunately had to happen, and just like Kitty Genovese (the New York woman beaten and stabbed to death while onlookers turned away) it’s symptomatic of a cancer on our national character.

      Check out http://www.TheManWhoBrokeTheWorld.com for more exciting news of the Neocon scourge.

    • #2976875

      Please use spell check

      by kreese ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      Valid points but please use spell check before posting!

      • #2974652

        Thanks

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Please use spell check

        But when its free you get what your given, just ignore it and click on something with fewer typos next time,.

    • #2976812

      Is this Tech Republish or GetMad.com

      by fryque ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      I am sorry for the man, but this is not GetMad.com, or LetsCry.com. This is TECH Republic. Did a computer failure cause the death? There are other places for a poorly worded, badly spelled, profanity ridden rant about life and humanity’s stupidity.

      • #2974642

        yeah

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Is this Tech Republish or GetMad.com

        Wherever else you hang out, I see you like to read anyway and reply with your own nonsense, where else do you share such insight?

        Tech Repubic editors have created a whole section in the user forums called Off Topic, it is designed for topics such as this, peers here discuss anything that interests them to escape form the redundancy of IT.

        To avoid it, TR’s navigation system lets you sleect what forums you are interested in, click FORUMS>BROWSE and you will see a list of all forums. It’s THAT easy, just learn how to navigate the website and you’ll avoid such horrors in future.

    • #2976796

      Not all of US

      by ali40961 ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      are like the lowlifes that caused this. And yes, I do agree that this is a sad example of how much people, in general, have become selfish, lost their manners, etc, etc. But this kind of behavior will continue until we stand up and put a stop to it. NO ITEM on the face of this earth is worth a human life. And I pray those involved have a conscience that will now bother them the rest of their lives.

      The only good news is that there ARE still people who are caring human beings.

      • #2974640

        Agreed

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Not all of US

        Of course I don’t mean each and every American is this way, that would be absurd and you certainly wouldn’t be a very strong nation.

    • #2976794

      One more thing

      by ali40961 ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      I have come into contact with MANY Canadians in the 25 yrs I have been a resident of a popular winter vacation location. And I have seen how RUDE some of them can be. Point being, no matter what nationality we look at, there are probably a few lowlifes.

      I truly BELIEVE that if each of us makes the effort to make this world a better place by NOT being one of the aholes, it will spread to others, and maybe eventually to people that would lose their brains for some materialistic bs.

    • #2976776

      Oz boy is USA basher

      by eyesak ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      Quote – “I don’t know how anyone can stand sharig a country with such losers,…”
      This was a sad day – we all live in the country we are from – no country is without blame. It is sad that this has happened.
      Oz – You did bash USA – this was uncalled for. You could appologize – but you have not – probably will not – you trampled USA with youu tounge. Bad on you. You act as if this is not US bashing – that’s stupid. I care – even for you – when you are wrong – like in this post.

      • #2976764

        Not Guilt by Association

        by jdsal ·

        In reply to Oz boy is USA basher

        I perceive “sharing a country with such losers” as ‘losers’ meaning the unruly mob breaking into walmart that day. Not necessarily the whole U.S.

        Also he went out his way to mention that he is not placing his country above the U.S. which is a rare sign of chivalry on web forums nowadays.

        • #2974796

          Comprehension

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Not Guilt by Association

          Well done, I see that you did get some of that fancy book learnin’ in school and understand how to figure out what you are reading, very impressed indeed!

          I keep getting told I said things that I don’t think I’ve said, that I am not clear and that my comments don’t iterate what I mean, I now find out that at least someone can figure it out so isn’t isn’t all my fualt afterall, thanks for that.

          Whether you agree with me or not is not my issue, the fact that people disagree and then show that they didn’t understand what I said to begin with just gets tiring though.

      • #2974809

        Sure whatever

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Oz boy is USA basher

        Overly defensive American alert. Here’s one for you, Bash Canada!

        Or would you like me to start and all the other Canadians here to help you too?

        Difference is, we KNOW there are many flaws in our country and people and we accept and choose to acknolwedge and address it, not ignore it or defend agsint such accusations as if we were perfect, which of course we are not nor claim to be.

        Americans will defend America until their death, as if there is some form of loyalty returned from the country for doing so.
        In most other countries we call it drinking the government cool aid, in America it is disguised as ‘patriotism’, you guys even believe that your truly democtratic nation is run ny the people, which is a real blast for the half who’s government was elected and works in their favour but a real slap in the face for the rest.

        It’s not my problem if you buy into it and believe it is some form of unique American cult that the rest of the world is unaware of.

    • #2976715

      Preach it

      by the_punisher79 ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      I’m now feel better about the world now that I know I was not the only one that was sickened and discusted by this news story when it broke Friday. I call these people animals, not humans. F*cking Apes. I don’t think it’s Wal-Mart’s fault per say, but they are untimately at fault in the grander sceme for perpetuating the pathetic and desctructive consumerism that we see in America today. I agree, charge the mofo who knocked him down and give everyone else who WALKED over him probation cleaning up the countless tons of trash that one Wal-Mart produces every month. The sad part is, I don’t think this is truly out of the ordinary. This is on par for what America is turning into. You think this is bad, just wait until the economy really tanks, then you’ll see the animals come out of the woodwork and create instant chaos. God help us all… Rest in peace and comfort to the gentleman’s family.

    • #2976712

      I think “they” should license shoppers

      by ontheropes ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      so they’ll know how to behave safely on Black Friday. Make them take the same test that millions of people undergo each Sunday where they go to church without trampling somebody to death. That or lets ban Black Friday altogether. Whatever we do we MUST get the government involved so that a tragedy of this nature never happens again. What do we have a Department of Homeland Security for when we can’t even have them regulate our every action? Ban shoppers! – My new slogan.

      • #2976644

        What? More Government

        by the scummy one ·

        In reply to I think “they” should license shoppers

        to be able to shop?
        What if you want food, should a test be taken to determine that you are eligible to purchase it?

        Sorry Ropes, I disagree here. Although I like the slogan 😀

        Personally, I think that when the store employees see such rude behavior, they should ban said person for the day and not allow them to purchase. In a mob rush, they should close the store. If they have extensive deals that can cause such a rush, there should be additional security on the premise to deal with it.
        If hundreds of people are lining up hours before the store opens, the Police should have a presence as well.

        • #2974756

          I’m glad you disagree.

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to What? More Government

          I hope everybody disagrees. I ‘ve got to find a real good tongue-in-cheek emoticon for posts like that. Too hard to interpret when I’m just trying to be a PITA I guess.

        • #2974634

          Police presence

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to What? More Government

          Police presence is costly, VERY costly in fact. They show for free when there’s an issue, not to prevent one, believe me I hav edetailed security for enough major touring acts that I know the cost of addiitonal police, even when an extra HOUR is needed it is a bank breaker.

          Yes, WalMart should predict such incidents and provide private security to organize the corwd, but what about using writs badnd slike they do here?

          We get a similar anumber of people outside Future Shop for Boxin gday, but they line up and wait patiently, those at the front get wrist bands and anyone else jumping the line cannto go through a check out without one, onc ethat initial group is through a few more go in, then a few more etc.

          Its’ not difficult, it doesn’t need teh military to sort out and why should it? Why should they be forced to provide high security or armed guards to ensure that poeple don’t get out of hand, can’t people be expected ot do that themselves?

          Of course OTR jumps to conclusions and assumes that’s what I mean, teh whole more government control but its not at all true. In fact my stand is the absolute opposite, more personal responsibilty is needed.

          Why can’t people be more personally responsibe for their actions and how is this case so easily ignored or flipped aside by so many people, when it is a horrific display of the inability of public to act in a respectable fashion?

          I certaonly wouldn’t be defending it if it happened here. I know such incidents have ahappened on rare occasion just abotu everywhere, and generally teh public is appaulled not whinign abotu government control as if that’s a proposed solution.

          Its easy for some to be flippant about it but they are usually the same people who cause or join in with such situations to begin with.

      • #2976630

        Another thought Ropes

        by the scummy one ·

        In reply to I think “they” should license shoppers

        Liability, insurance, and loss of sales would seem to be a key reason to find ways to avoid this type of incident.
        To the store/company, it is expensive to allow this to happen.
        Take a look at the Wal-Mart incident, after setting up the store/displays, etc. they had to close the store, will likely be sued, and clean up afterwards, along with fixing the broken door/frame.
        Many people that were there likely went somewhere else when the store was closed.
        Store insurance will likely go up a bit as well.

        • #2976587

          Get the fire marshall involved

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Another thought Ropes

          When the stores intentionally create this hysteria by having outrageous prices on a product and then only having a handfull on hand, they are creating a mob scene, and an unsafe environment.

          I over half expect the family of the trampled employee to sue borgmart over this.

        • #2974789

          And in my opinion, they would be right

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Get the fire marshall involved

          to sue Wal-Mart for this. They created a dangerous situation — and through past experiences have had similar issues (without death).

        • #2975946

          Of course they will

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Get the fire marshall involved

          They will sue WalMart for insurance, then sue the instigators (being named by the police) and take up civil suits against them. The store then also will have civil suits against the perpetrators to recover their insurance losses when they are sued. Same thing that always happens, whether you slip in an aisle or kill somebody.

          It all falls back on the losers that instigated it a few they have been identified and there will be others to come.

          WalMart should be shut down anyway. No longer is it an example of the success of the American dream, its about as American as apple pie…made in China.

          WalMart is like a bad cancer for the Chinese to monopolize on our nations, it is no longer the great American employer, an example of American pride and an icon of what one simple man can do with the right drive.

          It is corporate greed to the ‘nth degree. They force Us manufacturer’s to start manufacturing and importing from China, otherwise their goods don’t get put on the shelves. They insist on ridiculously high margins, if they can’t make those 40-80 point margins, they won’t carry the product or will seek it out through offshore suppliers.

          Living in Canada, it is obvious that most people understand what a useless and undesirable store WalMart is, though the spandex wearing, dirty child toting mamma’s still flock there as they are simply politically and economically clueless anyway.

          But for Americans to still support this store, which was once a paradigm of an American dream, is beyond me, why would anyone support such an outlet knowing full well what a horrific entity it has become, it should be an embarrassment to Americans now, not an icon.

          Yes, I know most of you can’t stand the sight of the place either.

        • #2990164

          Hey, we agree :D

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Of course they will

          mostly at least. There are times I go there, however it is usually 1-2 times a year, and only a small amount of $$ spent.

    • #2976692

      It is a sad thing that the world has come to this

      by jdclyde ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      In the “good ol’ days” you only got trampled by a mob at a [b]WHO[/b] concert trying to “rush the stage”…..

      • #2976658

        slight correction

        by captbilly1eye ·

        In reply to It is a sad thing that the world has come to this

        Actually the event at the Cincinnati Riverfront Coliseum in ’79 was similar to the recent Wal-Mart fiasco. It wasn’t during a rush to the stage that the deaths occurred. It was at the west gate when it first opened due to all the seats being General Admission – a practice that changed thereafter.
        I only remember because my brother was there – fortunately, at the back of the crowd.

        The main difference is the type of people involved. In Cincy, it was mostly partying middle & upper class kids but in Arkansas it was primarily lower middle class adults.

        • #2976649

          Is it possible

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to slight correction

          the same stoners from Cincy are todays lower/middle class adults? ;\

          Glad your brother was alright. Hell of a thing to witness.

          Seriously though, lower income/intelligence level people are EXACTLY who Walmart caters to. I can’t explain the toysrus shooting….

          All I can say is on “black friday” I wasn’t within 50 miles of a mall/shopping plaza. Never have, never will.

        • #2976646

          Hear ya there! Ditto.

          by captbilly1eye ·

          In reply to Is it possible

          🙂

    • #2976681

      All they need to do is hand out coupons for the door busters!!!

      by tercex11 ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      All the store needs to do is hand out coupons for all the door busters 2 hours before the store opens. If they do that then there is no reason to push or run because if you don’t have the coupon, you can’t get the special. This should be a requirement for anything that has limited quantities.
      Best Buy and Staples both do this and it works out great.
      I can?t believe that I need to suggest this to Wal-Mart and they can?t figure it out on their own.
      Do you believe that these same losers pushed and would not let the paramedics through to help the guy.

      • #2976675

        It might not be a bad idea for Walmart to limit the number of items too.

        by ontheropes ·

        In reply to All they need to do is hand out coupons for the door busters!!!

        My OH is a Black Friday shopper. She witnessed a scuffle at one of the specials where Walmart only had 7 (!) special items, I think it was a blender, and one guy put three in his cart. That didn’t sit very well with a woman who wanted one of them. Trouble ensued.

        I think that if they’re going to have loss leaders like that, on Black Friday, they should have a skid full of the items. Chances are also REAL good that Walmart doesn’t care what I think though that hasn’t stopped me from complaining about some of their policies and products at their website.

      • #2976651

        I am surprised

        by the scummy one ·

        In reply to All they need to do is hand out coupons for the door busters!!!

        that those with the coupons dont get beaten down then :0

    • #2976677

      Depravity

      by johja ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      This is a sign of depravity. This is materialism run amok. This is self-centeredness to the extreme. We are all fallen creatures — not all as equally bad, but equally as bad off. I share the disgust and sadness, but realize that it is a picture of the depravity that taints humanity. May we start to be mindful of others, even holding the door for the person who wants to purchase the item. I, too, avoid Black Friday (or buying a lot of “stuff”). I don’t like the materialism around Christmas, but I do like Christmas. May we turn our disgust, sadness, and frustration into something that can make a positive impact.

      • #2976625

        Does nobody see…?

        by inawe ·

        In reply to Depravity

        That this is the kind of stuff that sells newspapers? We’re fed a daily diet of doom and gloom from multiple sources.

        While I’m terribly sorry this happened, the only patern it shows is that it generates a lot of emotion – just like every other ‘news’ story over the last 10 years.

      • #2974653

        Well said

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Depravity

        It is the general public that needs to change not security that needs to be increased.

    • #2976672

      Trampled for savings…

      by richard.bennett ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      Oz:

      First let me say that I agree with you that it really is pathetic that anyone, anywhere would resort to such actions to satisfy their selfish desire for material things. I am sure its not representative of all of us here in the US, but more likely found in places with disposable income and the desire for more than they have. I have traveled the world and sad to say we in the USA seem to act like we are more important, have more money, and should be treated like dignitaries where ever we go. Its not surprising that so many people dont like americans BUT… there is another side.

      Serving others is also a strong point for Americans and many people from other countries. After hurrican Katrina, people came from all over to help in the Mississippi area. I worked with retired policemen from Canada who came for a month to give their time and energy. I have traveled to Honduras to work with a mission hospital started by an American doctor and his family to reach out to the needy. (By the way he lost everything he had back in the states during Katrina.) They live in Honduras working tirelessly to serve and be used by others.
      I am also part of a group of men and women and go into our state prisons to show the prisoners the love of GOD. Kairos ministry has brought a light into a dark place for many years.

      So before you write us all off as self serving rude americans, consider that we dont have the market cornered on materialism, selfishness, or on doing good for others.

      • #2976667

        Nice try. Nice post.

        by ontheropes ·

        In reply to Trampled for savings…

        He ain’t going to change from listening to you. In fact, I’ll bet that he argues with you.

        • #2976641

          No, Oz will agree

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Nice try. Nice post.

          While most of his writing comes out as a slam on America and Americans, he then backs up and clarifies that all doesn’t mean all, and is just a term, similar to “everyone was at the party”.

          He does have a lot of unresolved anger towards America and Americans, but when he slows down, he doesn’t think everyone here is the problem.

          Someone that just reads one or 20 of his posts could easily walk away with the impression that he is very anti-American though.

        • #2976635

          I do see

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to No, Oz will agree

          a few first time posters here. Some of them dont appear to be used to Oz at this time. Maybe a few of them should be directed to your post (colors maybe??).

        • #2976618

          If he cares enough to blast back, he can

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to I do see

          I am just personally surprised that this wasn’t removed from the front page, and even more surprised that it would ever become part of an email blast as some indicated.

          The other side of the coin, it was probably recognized as something intentionally inflammatory that would pull new people into the discussions.

          If nothing else, it will be an educational experience for new members on how to grow up and ignore people that may seem to be quite irrational.

          I do so love the effect when a tag is left open for the colors….. but a [i]Elder[/i] Editor asked me nicely to change it the last time I played, so I will refrain, for now…. B-)

        • #2976614

          I try not to read any of his posts.

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to No, Oz will agree

          They’re generally too predictable, lengthy and boring.

        • #2976613

          I give

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to I try not to read any of his posts.

          (see next post)

        • #2974751

          But you do and you still whine

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I try not to read any of his posts.

          Like a little girl not getting her way on her birthday.

        • #2974744

          Put it where the sun don’t shine.

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to But you do and you still whine

          .

        • #2974680

          Reality stings does it?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Put it where the sun don’t shine.

          That’s always the way, lots of comments, lots of insults but upset when recpirocated.

          now take your ball and run home crying.

        • #2974661

          You’ve really got a knack for bringing out the worst in people.

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to Put it where the sun don’t shine.

          No doubt about it, you’re the king where that’s concerned. I’ve watched you post your particular form of self-worship for years now and you’re predictable and boring. Tell it all to somebody who gives a rip. I ain’t interested and yeah, go ahead, get in the last word. I’ve seen that you don’t care what lengths you have to go to to get that. Knock yourself out.

        • #2974654

          LOL, nice try!

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Put it where the sun don’t shine.

          But people here have seen such pathetic closes before.

          “Tell it all to somebody who gives a rip. I ain’t interested and yeah, go ahead, get in the last word. I’ve seen that you don’t care what lengths you have to go to to get that. Knock yourself out. ”

          Your post had no relavance to ANYTHING EVER said here, and yet you posted it full of flames and said that I needed to get the last word, it was just trolling.

          Tell it to someone who gives a rip? You aint interested? But you insistently keep readning and posting. Yeah, I’ll buy those lies, now go find a new bridge to hide under, troll.

          Just so you have SOMETHING to go on, you even added the age old disclaimer, ‘Go ahead and get the last word’ just so you can then say , ‘See I knew you would!’ 😀

          Sad, pathetic, and definitely trolling.

          You jump on my comments and then get pis$ed when you are rebutted, grow up and learn something other than how to parrot a childs words.

        • #2974635

          So then — Was that

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Put it where the sun don’t shine.

          the last word? :0 :^0

        • #2974631

          Troll? Ropes?

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to Put it where the sun don’t shine.

          Nah. An ogre or a goblin maybe…
          😀

        • #2974628

          Did you notice

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Put it where the sun don’t shine.

          the thread itself was reported as SPAM — :^0 :^0 (no not by me).

          Hmmm, I think someone doesnt like where the thread unraveled to…

        • #2976003

          Boxy

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Put it where the sun don’t shine.

          OTR is always trolling MY posts, apparently a secret infatuation with me, kind a creepy actually.

        • #2976001

          SPAM

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Put it where the sun don’t shine.

          There was some n00b whiner complaining the usual crap about it not being an IT related thread, after taking time to read and reply to it as usual.

        • #2976615

          Ye olde double post. .

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to No, Oz will agree

          .

        • #2976611

          Benefit of the doubt

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Ye olde double post. .

          I have just learned when to walk away.

        • #2976610

          So do I

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to Benefit of the doubt

          where there is a doubt. I can walk away with the best of them. Just watch me.

        • #2976604

          WAIT FOR ME!!!!

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to So do I

          don’t walk so damm fast! 😀

        • #2974816

          I dont read all of

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Benefit of the doubt

          Oz’s posts, nor anybodys for that matter. However I do read a lot of them.
          Since I know what to expect, I dont let it bug me and try to get to see what he is really getting at.
          Often I think his posts are funny as well. Sometimes actually informative also :0 (who’d a thunk :^) )

        • #2974749

          If you can’t laugh what’s left?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I dont read all of

          if you can’t laugh at yoruself as well as others, what’s left to live for? all work and no play? No thanks.

        • #2974753

          Too true

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to No, Oz will agree

          Its not a ametter of slowing down, its a matter of respecting opnions. Som epeopl ehere offer logical, well thought out replies, even when in disagreement with my own comments. Others just jump on teh Oz is America bashing bandwagono and start flaming, as you have see here. That’s when I give up on trying to work with or explain myself to people.

          And I ALWAYS mean Americans in the sense that you acknowledge, but some people still don’t get it, definitely not my problem though.

      • #2974829

        Didn’t say you did though

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Trampled for savings…

        I know that many Americans have a good heart and do the right things for the right reasons, I too have worked with and employed Americans, in America, and understand that there are exceptions to every rule, however they are an exception in many cases.

        When I use a term such as Americans, that is how it is seen, as you well know from your travels. Nobody thinks that ALL Americans fit such a mold, but the general mindset and ensuing impression is the same.

        However when I say Americans, it could have been 300 or 30 thousand(meaning Americans in a plural sense) however as so many Americans see you as a collective, like the Borg, AMERICANS then means every American, everywhere.

        And one or two will awlays stand up and say that it doesn’t include them, and therefore is complete BS. Which is no different as a generalisation itself.

        People know who they are and their concience hopefully tells them when they have fallen behind on the socially acceptable ladder, but for some they just never learn and therefore perpetuate the common public opinion of Americans worldwide.

        But there are always many who will jump in here in defense of all Americans in America, as if that’s what my comments pertain to. To each his own but I am not going to let some of these whiny little pis$ ants tell me ‘my opinion’ is wrong.

        • #2974813

          wow, you seem an intelligent fellow…

          by xnavydk ·

          In reply to Didn’t say you did though

          But your writing ability belies your intelligence. I can read it well enough, although seemingly thoughtful at first glance. You merely type and post with out taking a minute to proof-read before the mashing that post button. This speaks to me as if you are a hot head, you could care less about what your writing, other than the self gratification of getting your thought out there. Wordorganism….

        • #2974803

          And the Word of the week

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to wow, you seem an intelligent fellow…

          “Wordorganism”

          I love it — thanks for that 😀

        • #2974795

          I thought you were going to go with

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to And the Word of the week

          “Seems”….. :0

        • #2974793

          :^0

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to I thought you were going to go with

          It just doesnt have the same ‘ring’ to it 😀

        • #2974777

          I admit

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to :^0

          I thought that before I had read either of the posts, and it was based upon the titles only…. ;\

          It does fit…. nicely…. 😀

        • #2974695

          Yep

          by xnavydk ·

          In reply to And the Word of the week

          anytime

        • #2974761

          Close but not quite

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to wow, you seem an intelligent fellow…

          Right I do nto have proper keyboarding skills nor do I need them here. I write copy and have editors that check it, when it is important, I do proof my work and will clean it up. But not usually here when there are 15 arguments going on that I have to address in short time. I did clear up tha last post though, agreeing it was a pretty bad one.

          Your conclusions are incorrect though, but appreciated all the same, as much as one can appreciate a comment on the internet anyway.

        • #2974708

          yet another..

          by xnavydk ·

          In reply to Close but not quite

          yes, oh yea, get it out there.. hit that button go for it NOW!

          post that wordorganism.

        • #2974678

          So?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to yet another..

          So…..should…..I ….type…..slower…for…you….or …something?

          I don’t get it. I offer a reasoned comment, with one tiny, irrelevant typo and you still whine away over nothing, again trying to find some argument that simply isn’t there.

          You’ll also note that my last reply was made 1 hour after you had posted, so where’s your issue?

          I know, I know, you’ll make one up, relevant or not.

          No matter what speed you reply, why do you bother when you have nothing relevant to say?

          There, I waited over 5 minutes before hitting SUBMIT POST this time, so what?

          If you think that speaking my mind is wrong, when I could think about something more politically correct and offer a fake comment just to appease the masses, then you need to learn how to speak your mind instead of saying what you think people want you to say.

        • #2976154

          because

          by xnavydk ·

          In reply to So?

          You should type slower for yourself. Its adds credibility to the things you post. I decided to ping on your typos because its the path of least resistance. And its annoying and {insert colorful adverb) aggravation to me that even someone with seemingly average intelligence could and thoughtful insight to today’s problems and issues cannot take the time to look even more respectable. Why not take the time to make yourself look like less of a doofus.

          ps
          I could have chosen to pick apart every sentence of your arguments/comments, but they folks here seem to have covered everything I could possibly have said.

          why try to help polish a turd. Its still a turd.

        • #2975993

          Grow up , get a life

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to So?

          We have already discussed it a thousands times, how important is spelling on a forum, and the answer is that its not.

          To some people, obviously yourself, internet forums and chat rooms matter, to me they do not. I seek no approval, I seek no credibility, I seek nothing. I am just offering my opinions on subjects of person interest while I pi$$ away time in the office. It is the equivalent of scribbling on a bathroom stall or park bench.

          I don’t care who you arem where you come from, what you do, or even if you are male of female, it makes not one iota of difference to me at all.

          You are simply an American (I assume) that is posting shite on an internet forum and not even coming close to addressing the reason for the thread at all/ In fact you have avoided offering a rational comment thu sfar and show yourself as a mindless whiner with no life and nothign of any importance or relavance to offer towards the comversation.

          No matter how well you type, you STILL come across like a loser.

          So unless you have something worthy to say, that someone may be interested in reading, talk to the hand because I sure as hell don’t care what you think about me or anything else.

    • #2974713

      The question is:

      by dubtek ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      Why weren’t the police there organizing the crowd when that many were waiting outside the door? Or why didn’t they just refuse to open until there were controls put in place? It was totally predictable, an “of course” observation, having seen it on the news, this mad rush to get into the doors. With that many people pushing from the rear there could be no control. RUN TO SAVE YOUR LIFE, OR DIE!

      • #2974673

        So its WalMart’s fault?

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to The question is:

        nice, as predicted lets not expect people to take responsibility for their actions, it was WalMart’s fault for nto bringing inpolice at their expense, and therefore no sale prices for these eager shoppers. police cost money, they don’t show up for free unless an emergency, like AFTER the doors are stormed.

        The doors were ripped off their hinges, no opportunity to close them.

        There were several displays of humanindecency and classless idiots though. *Mobbing to begin with, very archaic. *Breaking down the doors
        *Trampling, even when pushed from behind yuo odn’t have to keep going yuo can always push back, think front row at a concert.
        * not stopping to help those who were hurt
        *complaining when the store closed to help the man who was killed

        and yet it is WAlMart’s fault for not havign police there.

        I agree that greater measures should be taken, but that doesn’t excuse the freaks who got this going and those who in turn followed.

        For example, in Canada they hand out wrist bands to teh first dozen or so in the line who are in for the big door crasher bargains.

        Only a few go in at a time, (which is an organized and ruly line while people are chatting with each other about the deals they HOPE to get, not some mob to rush and tear doors off the hinges to save a few bucks, that is the lowest form of classless life on the planet.

        Yeah WalMart could have done better, but seeing that nothing was in place, one would assume that the general public would be aware enough and have enough taste and respect for each other to actually organize themselves, I’ve seen it a million times elsewhere.

        This is insanity, purely a demonstration from the bottom feeders of America. There’s nobody to be blamed except the loswer who instigated it and the morons who joined in.

        • #2976142

          re hashing

          by xnavydk ·

          In reply to So its WalMart’s fault?

          I will say this. you are almost right. Its not exactly Walmarts fault they are just a participant, every retail outlet is and every person who shops for that next great deal no matter what the cost. The same thing has happened all over the world, sporting events, concerts and other revenues where a lot of people want what they want and they want it now. If you take away all the layers he died because of greed, thoughtless behavior and overall consumerism. If you get a couple cows in a pasture walking the same direction ,the rest will follow in a line. Its the state of the world we live in. The only way to change it is to teach the children. Its too late for us. But nothing we say here is going to bring that man back to his family. I just hope that someday, people will learn to be considerate.

        • #2976113

          They created an unsafe condition

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to re hashing

          and big brother government was not there to save people from themselves.

          Is this what happens when we say there should be no judgments on behavior?

        • #2975992

          I am almost right?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to re hashing

          and I’ll say it again, I don’t give a rats arse what you think, right or wrong.

        • #2990606

          same here

          by xnavydk ·

          In reply to I am almost right?

          I don’t think you understand how little I care if you care or not. Your just an average everyday forum troll. The amount of time and effort you put in to putting your junk out there you could have done 100 other things that could have actually helped someone other than yourself. I for one will no longer participate in or read any more of your posts and if everyone else on here does the same, you will be talking to yourself.

        • #2990151

          The problem with a “company” being held responsible

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to re hashing

          is that it lets REAL PEOPLE avoid responsibility for bad acts. If Walmart is found to not have provided enough protection for their employees, then a real individual, the one who made that decision, should be held criminally liable. Perhaps then companies would make better decisions.

          Another problem with civil liability by a company… Judgments are paid, not by the company, but by the customers.

        • #2991682

          Tough sh1t

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The problem with a “company” being held responsible

          It’s law and insurance vs morals. Not exactly a fair fight.

        • #2989748

          I still think

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Tough sh1t

          If people were held criminally responsible for their decisions that harm others, they’d quit doing it.

        • #2990185

          Wal-Mart is at fault…

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to So its WalMart’s fault?

          They let the crowd get out of hand, they assumed no control of the situation before it got out of control, they instigated the crowd, and to top things off, they had NOTHING in place to limit the crowd at the door.

          The crowd was at fault for being inhuman and stupid.

        • #2991681

          Inhuman and stupid

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Wal-Mart is at fault…

          While I have already explained that WalMart will be sued (insurance) and that they will in turn follow with civil suits, along with the next of kin of the man who was killed.

          It is the most straight forward and common part or retail law.

          Now, as far as inhuman and stupid.

          The ‘MOB’ of ordinary citizens, who feel that unless restrained they are free to tranple and kill people, THEY are not inhuman and stupid? Of course they are the ones at fault.

          Only in America (or some other insanely overpopulated and completely uncouth nation) would such a need for restraint be necessary and seen as the reason for such a horrific display of “inhumanity and stupidity” by the general public.

          concerts and hocket games, outdoor festivals etc. this is expected as the goal is to push to the front and let loose, THIS is a family oriented store.

          The only thing they are negligent of is not forseeing the in ability of fellow Americans to act in a resonable and noncombative manner.

          I agree, they should have had better security, in fact they should have taken them each in one by one, in straight jackets so they can simply nod at what they want.

          Failure to have security in a large public event, in any other counry I’ve been in, results in the public taking necessary measures to organize and control themselves. usually commenting that they should have had mroe organization or better security but not resulting in idiots being inhuman and stupid, like 4 year olds turned loose in a toy store.

          There is absolutely NO excuse for such public behaviour and you are due anything that is thrown at you as a result. It is a ridiculous display of idiocy by the general public in America, end of story (unelss of course you are a defensive American who just can’t accept the fact that you are surrounded by clowns).

        • #2989747

          Overpopulated?

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Inhuman and stupid

          Hmmm… what would you suggest to remedy that?

        • #2989737

          Mini Nukes

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Overpopulated?

          in key areas.
          Full Nukes in even more key areas.

          Heck — nuke em all 😀

    • #2990170

      The US of A

      by alpha7 ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      For having such poor education, most of us can spell ‘the’ much better than you. It is a travesty that people act that way but make no mistake it isn’t the ‘plastic sh1t from China’ that makes them crazy. It’s the all mighty dollar, oh sorry Euro.

      It’s not the product it’s the savings. If they were selling plates of fries and gravy or hockey sticks (or any of the sticks you Canadians seem to keep up you know where), you’d trample and kill each other too.

      It’s not Americans that act this way, it’s humans. So come down off your horse, (don’t eat it,) and remember that just because you’re North of us on the map, it doesn’t mean that you’re above us.

      America is dependent on daily functions (as you say) by choice. It keeps the rest of the world functional. We could handle out own tech support but we farm it out because A. Other counties can afford to do it for less. B. Other countries need those jobs more than us. C. We have better things to do like trample each other at Walmart in an attempt to spend that money we saved by having other countries do our sh1t work. That’s why illegal immigrants are such an issue in the US. We already outsource all of the jobs we can to help promote a GLOBAL ECONOMY. There are no spare or extra jobs. So while the US may suffer from time to time, it’s because WE SACRIFICE for the good of the world.

      As for war, the only problem with war is that somewhere along the way we stopped taking the territory of the losers. What ever happened to ‘To the victor goes the spoils’?

      Truth is if the rest of the world would have supported the invasion after 9-11 you’d all be paying a fraction of the cost for fuel as you are now. How’s that you ask? Simple, oil is the middle east’s primary if not only real source of income. (Well, except for all those tech support jobs we’ve given them.) While the US has countless sources of income locally and abroad.

      BTW it’s almost an every year occasion that someone dies at walmart on Black Friday. This is just the first time it was an employee. 3 or 4 years ago an old lady got trampled over a $10 DVD player. (I got one by the way and it just died on me last month. Well worth the $10)

      People die, often horribly but, it can’t be that much of a problem because the world is still vastly overpopulated. We should have more of these sales. Then the greedy and disgusting can weed themselves out and make more room for decent people like ourselves who are smart enough to go to Walmart.com instead.

      Alot of this is to be taken in jest and with a humorous mindset while statistically true for the most part I’ll admit I went a little extreme here and there but hey, I’m just another @sshole American. I wouldn’t want to disappoint you by leading you to believe otherwise.

      Cheers and good will to all.
      You hate us, you need us,
      Freakin’ Americans

      • #2991669

        How sad

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to The US of A

        It is really sad that just becaus eyou are American, that you feel a need to defend yourself against idiots who make your nation the laughing stock of the world.

        But firstly, spelling is not my issue in any way shape or form, I spell better than most. TYPING is another thing, I don’t use the ‘proper’ fingering and don’t have editors to proof my posts here, nor do I deem it worth my time to spell check, it’s a forum full of internet posters for Christ’s sake; about as important as a 900# chat line.

        [i]If they were selling plates of fries and gravy or hockey sticks (or any of the sticks you Canadians seem to keep up you know where), you’d trample and kill each other too.[/i]

        Really? Bullsh1t. I can tell that you can’t find Canada on a map, perhaps not America either, so let me explain how public behanves elsewhere, when things are blown out at insane prices.

        We have intense boxing day sales, as I have mentioned already canada’s most favoured electronics store (no not Best Buy or Future Snot)has a boxing day sale that people line up for overnight, sometimes sacrificing Xmas dinner to get in line.

        It is a single file line, a good few blocks long. You can still walk by on the sidewalk, when the doors open people wait patiently, while the first 40-50 are let in, they get the $10 DVD players etc. The rest wait their turn and have fun meeting each other and hanging out. No riot, no trampling.

        Reading the rest makes me wonder why I will reply, you have proven you are absolute 100% clueless as to your state in the world and your dire NEED for others to help you so that you can continue to function as a nation each day.

        So, you think that farming out your jobs is by choice and for your benefit.
        [i]”A. Other counties can afford to do it for less. B. Other countries need those jobs more than us. C. We have better things to do like trample each other at Walmart in an attempt to spend that money we saved by having other countries do our sh1t work. [/i]

        A) Of course others will work for less money than you will, that’s why they take your jobs and your unemployment rate is so high because of it.

        B)Other countries will take your money, they don’t NEED your jobs, the world’s a big [place and you are but one country.

        C)the reason you HAVE to shop at WalMart is because you work for less money and pay more taxes. Too many Americans are at the point of bankrptcy, claiming foreclosure and losing their jobs to cheaper overseas labour due ot capitalist clowns that take you for your every dime.

        Your opinion in this area differs from every single American opinion that has EVER been posted here. In fact with your nation’s hideous unemployment rate, most people there are livid that these jobs are sent overseas, you are one clueless American indeed.

        [i]somewhere along the way we stopped taking the territory of the losers[/i]

        You are either VERY young or very naiive.
        Who’s land, for instance, do you think you’ve WON that way?

        Was it when you failed to invade Canada and had the White House burned down?

        Was it when you failed to resolve the conflict you wrongly entered in in Vietnam?

        Was it when you followed the rest of the allied forces into Germany to find that Russia had all but defeated Hitlers army? More than years after he failed to take over all of Western Europe and turned tail?

        Was it when you went to Japan to join the Canadian soldiers and RAf in defeating Japan?

        Just WHO’S land do you THINK you’ve conquered? Gawd, start reading real history books, not the US high school propaganda.

        “Truth is if the rest of the world would have supported the invasion after 9-11 ”

        That proves in one sentence just how comletely lost and unaware of reality you are.

        After 911 the bulk of allied nations quickly stepped in an went to Afghanistan, where the terrorists who attacked you were and still are based. In fact it was Germany , the UK and Canada that took over operations against the Taliban after you feld for Iraq. As for the big Iraqi swindle, give your head a shake! How stuypid can one single American possibly be? I know that most of your fellow American peers here would roll their eyes and explain that you are only one and not the majority as they would be embarassed to have such a stupid opinion be seen as an ‘American’ opinion.

        If i had said that Americans think…followed by your BS, I’d be tranpled in a heartbeat by people saying that MOST Americans don’t believe that horse rot at all.

        [i]”While the US has countless sources of income locally and abroad.”[/i]

        You are joking, I don’ tthink any of your post is even half serious, nobody is that clueless.

        Why would Canada benefit from Iraqi oil? The only way is that YOU would need less of OUR oil. You know that 60% of your imported oil comes from Canada, right? Of course, not you are nowhere near that in tune with reality. I suppose that you also don’t know that most of your grain is bought from Canada, that your US cars are often manufactured here, that California cannot power their own state after 8PM without rolying on hdro, form BC (that’ sin Canada)and the list goes on and on and on.

        Sure we like takign your money, why not? but we could at least feed our people, drive our cars and power our homes without the need for American imports. Your nation imports MOST of what it uses, you are the world’s LARGEST importers out of necessity and one of the smallest exporters with abundance, you consume more than you create.

        “BTW it’s almost an every year occasion that someone dies at walmart on Black Friday”

        Oh well, its okay then, my bad. I didn’t realize it was normal, otehr Americans here are trying to say how rare it is and that such rare incidents do happen everywhere. You seem proud to be an idiot.

        Obviously your post was all a complete joke, it is all completely fabricated, and not a little extreme here and there but entirely incorrect and mindlessly out of touch.

        Yes, you are just another @sshole American, and I respct you for your honesty; I would never claim to be anything BUT an @sshole myself, but I’m a nice guy, as far as @ssholes go.

        We hate you and don’t need you any more than you need the rest of the world.

        Freakin’ resource raping Yankee losers, but you’re fun for the world to point and laugh at all the same, especially when you go on like you are superior to anyone else, including ancient pygmie tribes in the deepest darkest jungles.

        • #2989649

          Yeah, sure

          by puppybreath ·

          In reply to How sad

          When’s the last time you saw an American “wait patiently” for anything? I was at a Barnes and Noble over the weekend and saw a “lady” throw a hissy fit because she was second in line and they refused to open another checkstand.

          I had to spend quite a while in Puerto Rico and had to totally change my attitude about waiting in line since you wait in line for everything there. It’s just the way it is. No pushing, no shoving, no complaining just waiting for your turn. Must be very similar to Canada but much different then what you see in the states.

          That’s what happens when books like “Looking Out For Number 1” become best sellers. It’s all about “me” nowadays.

    • #2989706

      No it never happens in Canada, only America.

      by mwradio ·

      In reply to slow down trying to save a buck at WalMart!

      “Only in America (or some other insanely overpopulated and completely uncouth nation) would such a need for restraint be necessary…” Yeah, right! OZ you’re totally off base as usual. Time to get a life!
      It only took me one minute to find this on Google, proving that it DOES happen in Canada. I’m sure I can find more evidence, but it is not necessary for me to prove that jerks live all over the world NOT JUST IN THE USA AS YOU WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE. Even you can admit the results of this one could have been deadly if her manager was not “on the ball”.

      http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/15900769.html

      Actress EMILY BLUNT was trampled by screaming girls desperate to get close to her music star boyfriend MICHAEL BUBLE…
      …after a recent gig IN CANADA still shakes her. She recalls, “About 100 girls just started running after Michael. I dropped something and went down to pick it up only then to be bodyslammed against the tour bus by people trying to get to him. The tour manager saw me, grabbed me and yanked me up the stairs to safety. That was scary.”

      ————-
      Evidently it is only the GIRLS in Canada that are completely uncouth, huh Oz? Or is it just bigots like you, filled with hate and jelousy to the point where they have to attack Americans and America with every possible thing they can find? You’re BS does not make America any worse than Canada, nor Canada any better than the U.S.A., but it does make me happy to live here, rather than to have to work with a shallow minded jerk such as yourself.

      You’ve had your fun. You’ve used that poor man’s death for your own personal vendetta and for your own little ego boost. “Gee! Look everyone! See how much better, I Ozmedia, and all my Canadian compatriots are than ANY American, because I didn’t behave this way but a FEW Americans did! Obviously ALL Americans MUST be this way, because I Oz, don’t know ANY Canadians, personally, who would act this way!” You may go back to sleep now. JERK.

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