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  • #2195398

    Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

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    by Jay Garmon ·

    In ten words or less, complete the following sentence: “I don’t use Linux because…”

    I’ll start with “…I’m required to use Windows for work.”

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    • #3162402

      Ditto

      by stargazerr ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      But I am saving to buy a computer I can install Knoppix on.

      ]:)

      • #3152548

        Don’t install Knoppix

        by alangeek ·

        In reply to Ditto

        Stargazerr, you don’t need to install Knoppix, it’s a live CD (or DVD). In fact, they strongly recommend that you NOT install it to a hard drive as it’s a specially thrown-together mashup of a lot of stuff that doesn’t necessarily belong together (bits and pieces from different distributions, etc.) and it would be virtually impossible to maintain as there will be version conflicts, missing dependencies, or whatever.

        Instead, run it directly from the CD or DVD and find out some of the stuff that’s available and how you can use it, find out how much hardware is compatible, and just get an idea of what you can do with it.

        Then, if you like what you see, you can get a normal distribution like OpenSuSE 10 or Fedora Core, or even Ubuntu (or Kubuntu, if you like the KDE interface better than Gnome), though I consider it to be a bit watered-down. You can get live CDs for many distributions so you can try them out without having to go through the hassle of installing them, trying them out, then reloading another flavor.

        In fact, if you have plenty of space left on your drive (several gig worth of free space is recommended), you can back up your important stuff, run scandisk at least once thoroughly, then install Linux on the same box. Many distributions can install themselves on your Windows machine and set up a dual-boot arrangement so you can go back and forth between Windows and Linux. If you get VMWare or VirtualPC, you can even run a Windows virtual machine inside Linux.

        Anyway, try out some live CDs and don’t wait until you can buy another box. You might discover that you don’t need another machine at all.

        • #3152328

          I think you missed

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to Don’t install Knoppix

          the joke. I don’t think he was being serious. But your information about live CD’s and dual-booting may be valuable to others nonetheless.

        • #3154475

          She

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to I think you missed

          Not a He :p

          And No, I was Serious. Thanks for the Info Alangeek. I have an Ubuntu distro that I would like to try too. Trouble is I cant start using Linux on my work laptop. something in the stupid contract.

          ]:)

        • #3154468

          bah

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to She

          There’s nothing wrong with installing from a Knoppix CD. I’d prefer a Knoppix install over an Ubuntu install.

          There are some dependency conflicts once you get the Debian-style install from a Knoppix CD done, but for a temporary desktop setup Knoppix is pretty darned good. Just don’t figure on it being “permanent”, as you’ll probably want to try a “serious” installed distro like Debian once you’ve gotten used to Linux by playing around with Knoppix.

        • #3154388
          Avatar photo

          Star which Ubuntu Distro do you have

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to She

          The latest one is 5.1 and comes in both Live Linux and the installable variety.

          If you where to drop in a Live Linux and boot from the CD/DVD drive you wouldn’t actually be loading Linux onto your Company Supplied NB and unless you did something very interesting like remiove all admin passwords no one would be any the wiser unless of course if you in a fit of [b]Hormonal[/b] Brain Fade forgot to remove the CD. :^0

          Even then you could insist that you are still recovering from That Time of the Month [b]MS Patch Time[/b] and someone is attempting to set you up and throw a Fit that will drive everyone away. 😀

          Anyway a copy of Knoppix should be in every Techs tool box as it’s just plain and simple necessary. It allows you to get around so many WIndows Problems. You know the undocumented ones. :0

          Col ]:)

        • #3152276

          Okay, I’m always willing to admit my ignorance.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Star which Ubuntu Distro do you have

          “… a copy of Knoppix should be in every Techs tool box …”

          I’ll bite. Why? What would I do with in a strictly Windows shop?

        • #3152125

          three ideas

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Okay, I’m always willing to admit my ignorance.

          Recover a broken Windows installation. Resize partitions. Run hardware diagnostics.

        • #3152108

          apotheon, elaborate please

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Okay, I’m always willing to admit my ignorance.

          Where would I find infomation on how to use a Linux live CD to do some of these things?

          We set everything up with a single partition, but your other suggestions sound interesting.

        • #3152097

          a couple of books

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Okay, I’m always willing to admit my ignorance.

          I’m sure there are a couple places online that list such information, but since I haven’t been doing serious single-system Windows disaster recovery for a while I haven’t been keeping up with these tricks of the trade as much as I perhaps should. I can recommend two books that are quite excellent for such information, however, along with a fair bit of information unrelated to Windows:

          O’Reilly’s [i]Knoppix Hacks[/i]

          ExtremeTech’s [i]Hacking Knoppix[/i]

          I’m intending to get a review of the latter of these published at TR soonish.

        • #3151977

          Well worth looking into

          by jbush ·

          In reply to Okay, I’m always willing to admit my ignorance.

          As I’m sure you’ve gathered, these live CDs allow you to boot into a fully functional modern operating system without necessarily impacting on the machine and no installation.

          As a support person, I expect you can see the worth in that.

          Got a machine that’s been the breeding ground for virii and you don’t want to boot it up for fear of propagation causing futher damage and you don’t want to throw the drive into another machine?
          You can run linux anti virus programs like ClamAV or BitDefender to iron out Windows targetting infections.

          As Apotheon has stated elswhere, any linux administration/usage skills you pick up are easily transferrable across the entire linux family, not to mention make you a bit more comfortable working with Unix or Mac OS X (as someone who uses Windows, Mac OS and Fedora at least once a day, I think I can vouch for that).

          At the end of the day, a wider range of skills or the ability to comprehend a wider range of skills is a good thing.

        • #3153604

          Saviour in a tight spot

          by mad-h ·

          In reply to Okay, I’m always willing to admit my ignorance.

          Recover “corrupt” office docs – we had a manager who can to us with a corrput excel s/sheet, and all the vers I tried (97, 2000, 2003) bombed when opening it. Enter knoppix – boot from the CD, use open office to open it, dump to PDF, ftp over to network server (or put on a USB stick). Great if your company’s software policy won’t allow you to install openoffice on your PC as it’s a non-intrusive (disk-writing wise) process

        • #3153019

          Knoppix to the rescue…

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Okay, I’m always willing to admit my ignorance.

          On three separate occasions I have helped people rescue files with Knoppix. In all three cases, Drive were experiencing imminent failure. Windows was reporting the drive as unformatted. I booted a Knoppix CD, it happily mounted the windows drive, and from tehre I was able to copy most/all of the data to a new drive.

        • #3153017

          A use for the paranoid…

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Okay, I’m always willing to admit my ignorance.

          I also find Knoppix handy when I have to do web research. Call it paranoia, but I am never entirely confident that Antivirus/Spyware will catch all the little bits of undesireable code, cookies, etc (malicious or otherwise) that those various sites might wish to push out to me. As such, I do nearly all my web browsing from a Knoppix CD. My pristine system is a mere reboot away…

        • #3158266

          recover data off a windows partition (nt)

          by arleenw ·

          In reply to Okay, I’m always willing to admit my ignorance.

          NT

        • #3153579

          yep

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Star which Ubuntu Distro do you have

          5.10 or the stupid name Breezy Badger. 😀

          I booted from the Live CD but opening up applications is mega slow, so I had to revert back to Windows 🙁

          How about if I put out an advert to donate computer parts to the needy? Do you reckon that will speed up the time untill I acquire a computer? :p

          ]:)

        • #3153494
          Avatar photo

          Unfortantly it will be slow

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to yep

          Running off a CD s the CD is slow by its very nature as CD’s are slow to load. But the Live Nix’s are desicned to run this way so you can get in a rescue data or bypass Passwords and the like.

          That’s what I always use them for as I find that things are too slow running off the CD but they do at the very least give you an idea of what’s possible.

          How about taking a proposal to managment asking for one of the units about to be decommissioned as a test bed for alternative OS’s? You could even maybe push the idea that you would willing be a Beta Tester for Vista when it hits the streets to drive us all crazy. :p

          That way as the computer isn’t actually leaving the companies control they wouldn’t have to go through all the trouble of replacing the HDD to keep their Security Processes intact.

          Or you could attend one of the many Excorporate Auctions and pick up a unit very cheaply over here there are many companies who specalise in selling off Ex Corporate/Government computers and most of the tiume they break them up and sell as bits that way they get more for the bits than the complete computer. But to keep people walking through the doors they always have a smal range of complete Computers are reasonable prices. Or you could even hit E-Bay for an old dicommissioned server those things are practially [b]Give Away[/b] items just try to avoid the SCSI only units as they are harder to load any form of Nix to in a lot of cases.

          Col

        • #3153411

          Beta Tester for Vista ?

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to yep

          Willingly ?

          I think I am happier on my work laptop dreaming of a day I will get my own box. :p

          Actually, it isnt very far now. Just 2 more months and I will be able to use the money I earn to do what I want. But buying something my company doesnt want is a good idea. Now, where the hell has my boss dissapeared to ?

          Jaqui suggested buying something in Canada and that he can ship it, since I can be exempted from duties and taxes if stuff is sent from a private person to a private person. I still have to test that theory though.

          ]:)

        • #3153338
          Avatar photo

          Couple of things to watch out for

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to yep

          Shipping costs can be very high and more importantly the Voltage of the mains from the country that the unit is originating from can be a potential problem. Back when I fixed Sewing Machines I used to get a lot of calls from the States asking me exactly what needed changing to meet AU Electrical Safety requirments. In one case they changed everything except the light buld and sent it over and when it was tested the 110 V Buld exploded making the chassis live so the machine was returned to the originating point as Unsafe. That was an expensive mistake. :^0

          But if freight isn’t an issue I can send you one from here and if it’s just the tower for a desktop it wouldn’t take up much space and the wife would be as happy as Larry to see one go. The monitor wouldn’t be such a good ides to ship as they are less than gentle and a Keyboard & Mouse are [b]As Cheap As Chips[/b] as I understand the Poms say. :p

          I can pickup a Second Hand NB for about $480.00 AU and that is one of the decent ones not one of the old junkers that are floating around so much. Hell I could even build you a really good NB for about 2K AU which would be about 1 Pound 50 Pence if my last visit to the UK is anything to go by. Luckly the company was paying for everything otherwise I couldn’t have afforded to eat let alone live or have the odd drink or 10. 😀

          If memory serves me correctly the UK is on 240 V AC at 50 HZ and any hardware sold here would work perfectly there with the added advantage that we have tighter electrical laws so it would be better electrically than what you are currently getting there.

          Lets know if you’r interested but it all depends on the UK Import Laws. It’s been a very long time since I’ve had anything to do with them so I’m not sure how things stand at the moment.

          Col

        • #3152901

          There never was a Ubuntu 5.1

          by colonel panijk ·

          In reply to Star which Ubuntu Distro do you have

          You’re referring to 5.10. Ubuntu distributions come out twice a year, in April (xx.4) and October (xx.10), where the year-2000 is the version number. That said, there was supposed to be 6.4 last month, but I haven’t seen it (may have been delayed). The Ubuntu site (www.ubuntu.com) lists 5.10 as the latest downloadable version. By the way, I have found Ubuntu to be a very nice, easy to use and easy to install distribution.

        • #3152711
          Avatar photo

          It is but the Live version

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to There never was a Ubuntu 5.1

          Like all Live versions of Linux is slow running off a CD Drive.

          Even for a Debian Deritive it’s a particuarly easy Distro to play with and should work quite well for the market that it’s aimed at.

          Col

        • #3161214

          It was delayed.

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to There never was a Ubuntu 5.1

          The last I saw (about a month or two ago) it was officially being delayed in order to give it more time for testing. They’re going to longer support cycles so they want to make sure they’ve got it right. Best of luck to them.

        • #3153742

          Not use, or not install?

          by ajole ·

          In reply to She

          The Live CD would allow you to use Linux without doing anything to the laptop, so depending on the wording of your contract, you may be OK.
          The joke they are referring to (in my take on it)is the idea that you need to save for a computer, as Linux will run on the $100 refurbs, $200 new white boxes, any box you presently have, etc. No big money costs there, and no loss of whatever OS you have now.
          Good luck!

        • #3160904

          Knoppix

          by vetch_101 ·

          In reply to She

          If you boot to Knoppix – what they don’t know won’t hurt them….

        • #3160136

          Try Mepis

          by cbertram ·

          In reply to She

          It is a kubunto distro, and it works very well as a live CD. Then you don’t have to install it on the HD. I like Knoppix and BeatrIX for old hardware, but run a dual boot xp/mepis 6 beta3 on my t41.

        • #3160110

          No it isn’t!

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Try Mepis

          Kubuntu is a KDE-using variant of Ubuntu. Ubuntu is based on Debian.

          MEPIS is based on Debian.

          MEPIS is, in fact, an older distribution than Ubuntu (and the even younger Kubuntu). The only relationship between the two is that they are both Debian-based. MEPIS is [b]not[/b] “a kubunto[sic] distro” by any stretch!

          That having been said . . .

          MEPIS is excellent, as LiveCD distributions go. For those who find its default configuration to their taste, I definitely recommend it. Like many spin-off distributions, however, it’s not really suited to having its configuration monkeyed with too much, so if you want something more customized for your particular tastes you might want to look into Debian itself.

        • #3161217

          Oops, O starry one

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to She

          Sorry. I was trying to catch up on my discussions and was posting in a bit of a hurry. I didn’t realize it was you I was responding to. I’d have known better otherwise.

          I hope you took it as a compliment that I thought of you as “one of the guys”. You should.

        • #3156387

          This is my first and last entry into the Linux debate.

          by robax ·

          In reply to I think you missed

          I don’t use Linux
          ..because I don’t need to.
          ..because I do my work with applications not Operating Systems
          ..because my OS choice is motivated by purpose and function, not ideology.
          ..because I don’t buy into fud nor hype.
          ..because OSX would be the second choice.
          ..because I don’t need Apache.
          ..because I have a job with performance measures.
          ..because my social conscience is where it belongs.. with real people in real need.
          ..because I can afford to choose my applications and not worry about their purchase price.
          ..because I don’t have a ‘box’.
          ..because my cpu is more powerful than a 386.
          ..because I need to learn another OS like I need to pick up z80 machine language.
          ..because I have better things to do with my life.
          ..because I have tasks, hobbies and interests other than playing with operating systems.
          ..and because I’d like to get on them them now.

          On a side note.. I have thrice over 9 years attempted to install and use Linux. Each effort ended up in a wasted day and reaffirmed all of the above reasons.

          Open source is a great method for creating software. It is not a method for creating great software. A narrow mind will confuse these things.

        • #3158020

          Point by point?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to This is my first and last entry into the Linux debate.

          I don’t use Windows . . .

          because I don’t need to.

          because I don’t want my work to vanish because of my Operating System.

          because my OS choice is motivated by purpose and function, not marketing.

          because I don’t buy into fud or hype.

          because OSX would be the second choice.

          because I don’t need IIS.

          because I have a job where performance matters.

          because my social conscience is where it belongs: with real people in real need.

          because I can afford to choose my applications and not worry about their corporate acceptability.

          because I don’t have a “PC” — I know what they’re really called.

          because my cpu is more powerful than a 386, and I don’t want it to [i]act like[/i] a 386 under the weight of Redmond.

          because I need to learn another OS every time Microsoft decides it wants more money like I need to pick up z80 machine language.

          because I have better things to do with my life than fix mysterious magical Windows problems and chase malware.

          because I have tasks, hobbies and interests other than keeping abreast of the latest bugs introduced by Windows Update.

          (I decided to leave “and because I’d like to get on them them now” alone because it doesn’t make any sense.)

        • #3157966

          Bravo

          by jamas ·

          In reply to Point by point?

          Well said! Does anybody have the link to “Linux is not Windows”? Cause someone needs to read it…ahum Robax…ahum!

        • #3157960

          Linux != Windows

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Bravo

          Ask and ye shall receive.

          http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

          This guy won’t learn from it, though. That much is obvious.

        • #3157965

          A response to FUD

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to This is my first and last entry into the Linux debate.

          “..because I don’t need to.”

          This is a poor reason not to use anything. Being a techy means you SHOULD want to explore new and exciting technology.

          “..because I do my work with applications not Operating Systems”

          WTF does this mean? Of course you do work with applications. Your OS should be hidden and you should NEVER see it. Windows breaks this rule constantly.

          “..because my OS choice is motivated by purpose and function, not ideology.”

          You have a strange idea of purpose and function then.

          “..because I don’t buy into fud nor hype.”

          HA! Sure you don’t…If you didn’t you’d at least understand some of the basic concept of Linux.

          “..because OSX would be the second choice.”

          Sure, why not…

          “..because I don’t need Apache.”

          Why not? No need for a web server? If you use IIS you have just introduced a serious attack vector.

          “..because I have a job with performance measures.”

          They must not measure very well because *nix typically out performs Windows in almost all server tasks*

          * I’d mention AD here, but honestly, we’ve been over this…

          “..because my social conscience is where it belongs.. with real people in real need.”

          No it isn’t. It is in MS’s pocket. If you wanted to support need, you’d look into various technologies and not just one.

          “..because I can afford to choose my applications and not worry about their purchase price.”

          Uh, ok…good for you…

          “..because I don’t have a ‘box’.”

          Uh…ok….sure….

          “..because my cpu is more powerful than a 386.”

          But grinds down to the performance of one when Windows “forgets” to release resources.

          “..because I need to learn another OS like I need to pick up z80 machine language.”

          Uh…”another” OS. How many OSs do you have to maintain…sounds like just one. You don’t want to double your knowledge?

          “..because I have better things to do with my life.”

          Like looking into freaky Windows issues and fighting with malware?

          “..because I have tasks, hobbies and interests other than playing with operating systems.”

          Welcome to my life…That’s why I use Linux…So I don’t have to mess with it…

          “..and because I’d like to get on them them now.”

          HUH!!?? What the deuce does that mean?

          “On a side note.. I have thrice over 9 years attempted to install and use Linux. Each effort ended up in a wasted day and reaffirmed all of the above reasons.”

          Then your technological compentencies suck. If you can’t click next to install Linux, I’ll be taking your job (or possibly even firing you) soon.

          Honestly, why do people say it is hard to install Linux?

          “Open source is a great method for creating software. It is not a method for creating great software. A narrow mind will confuse these things.”

          What are you going on about? Are you saying not all open source software is good? Well, DUH!! Just like not all closed source software is good…the difference is I can modify crappy open source stuff and make it good.

        • #3157870

          Re: A response to FUD

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to A response to FUD

          “This is a poor reason not to use anything. Being a techy means you SHOULD want to explore new and exciting technology.”

          Most of us do constantly explore new and exciting technology. But there is a limit to how much one can explore. We all pick and choose based upon numerous factors. Just because someone doesn’t explore your choice doesn’t mean they are not exploring.

          “You have a strange idea of purpose and function then.”

          Maybe, but just because you don’t agree with him, don’t knock him.

          “HA! Sure you don’t…If you didn’t you’d at least understand some of the basic concept of Linux.”

          There’s plenty of FUD on both sides and while many of us don’t use Linux, we do have a basic concept of Linux.

          “Why not? No need for a web server? If you use IIS you have just introduced a serious attack vector.’

          Most home users don’t need a web server.

          “They must not measure very well because *nix typically out performs Windows in almost all server tasks”

          You’re right, my job and many others don’t measure the peformance of my server per se, my job performance is measure by how much I add to the bottom line. Linux very well may help that, but there are plenty of other areas I have chosen to tackle first.

          “No it isn’t. It is in MS’s pocket. If you wanted to support need, you’d look into various technologies and not just one.”

          This is kind of like being a doctor. There are times when you can cure a patient but the patient doesn’t want to be cured, for example cancer…not saying Microsoft is a cancer as I’m sure you’ll point out. If the customer wants Microsoft, give them Microsoft.

          “But grinds down to the performance of one when Windows “forgets” to release resources.”

          My P4 has never performed like a x386.

          “Then your technological compentencies suck. If you can’t click next to install Linux, I’ll be taking your job (or possibly even firing you) soon.”

          Probably have to agree with this one.

        • #3157320

          He doesn’t sound like a home user

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Re: A response to FUD

          So long story short:
          Rickk, you are right *shudder*, IF he was a home user. 🙂 I think he is an IT guy on the ground somewhere….Which is bad….

          The problem here is that if consumers KEEP drinking the poison, they will eventually die. It is VERY hard to prove ROI and TCO on IT stuff, but generally it is pretty clear that the ROI and TCO of MS is far more (long term) than *nix infrastructure….

        • #3157903

          Skill level alert!!!

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to This is my first and last entry into the Linux debate.

          Tainted evidence of skills wasted away.

        • #3157901

          Christian David Sanko age 7 has installed…

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to This is my first and last entry into the Linux debate.

          Debian,Suse10,fedora 5, fedora 4, and Mandriva.

          Unixware 7.1, OpenLinux, Solaris 10 on x86. My wife reminded me of this…

          This so called professional can’t…

          Who pays him??? My youngest son need some fast cash…

        • #3157649

          Congratulations to “Christian David Sanko”

          by aaron a baker ·

          In reply to Christian David Sanko age 7 has installed…

          You must be Proud
          Aaron

        • #3165867

          That’s brilliant…

          by kentfx_z ·

          In reply to This is my first and last entry into the Linux debate.

          …I’ve spent way too many pointless hours messing around with that damned OS, while doing all my real-world work on Windows. Thanks, bro. Sometimes someone needs to say something obvious to wake people up.

        • #3111526

          Nothing to add…

          by itaaa4 ·

          In reply to This is my first and last entry into the Linux debate.

          robax,

          Been there, done that, nothing to add – my sentiments exactly!

        • #3113041

          Of Course I am proud.

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Nothing to add…

          My daughter 21 has decided to try for a job as a Unix admin at the local University. She did get their Server back up in 10 minutes tht had been down for a day. She probably won’t get the job because the PhD who interviewed her was upset she has had 0 (zero) computer classes.

          If she gets the job she’ll be the #3 person on the platforms and the only one with a clue on debian and HPUX and Solaris 9 & 10. (She learned from her daddy’s side…)

          Son, 20 is our Household admin. He won’t let me touch the 6509 Cisco Router now that he is practicing for his CNE…

        • #3154459

          uhm

          by cuteelf ·

          In reply to Don’t install Knoppix

          Alan,

          That’s more than 10 words.

          😛
          CuteElf

        • #3152943

          Ditto

          by jc williams ·

          In reply to Don’t install Knoppix

          http://www.ubuntu.com and download the live version, burn to bootable cd and fire it up. Recently installed Ubuntu 5.10 and *really* like it. It comes with Open Office and does just about everything I want right off the cd. Those handful of things that I want that are not there are very easy to download and install.

        • #3157222

          Knoppix install works fine

          by cls8 ·

          In reply to Don’t install Knoppix

          I don’t know what “they” you’re talking about, but I wonder what their issue is.

          Knoppix is not a “mashup” of things from different distributions. Knoppix is a rather clever Debian installation, with a couple of hardware recognition features derived from Red Hat’s Kudzu. The main components of Knoppix 4 are straight out of Debian 3.1 “Stable.” It uses a stock Debian kernel plus the Union File System as a loadable kernel module.

          I installed Knoppix on a laptop and used it for about a year. Worked great. I wouldn’t install it on a colocated server that I expect to have to do distribution upgrades on from home. That’s what Debian 3.1 is for. But if I only have a few minutes to do a workstation install, on a machine I won’t have to maintain remotely, Knoppix is on my short list. My biggest issue with knoppix-installer is the partitioning isn’t very flexible. It wants to install in one big partition. I prefer separate partitions for root and /tmp. Root contains mishap recovery tools and should be small and static. /tmp should be mounted noexec except when you’re installing packages.

          Cameron
          Linux user #229 at counter.li.org

        • #3165852

          I disagree!!

          by jay e court ·

          In reply to Don’t install Knoppix

          I’m a big Linux user and i disagree with NOT installing Knoppix. It’s a great distro on CD/DVD or on the hard drive. If you are having trouble installing Knoppix to your HD, i reccommend visiting this site. http://www.irongeek.com/i.php?page=videos/knoppix1 This is a great step by step on how to install Knoppix to your HD. Enjoy!!

      • #3156408

        Good Question

        by notetaker ·

        In reply to Ditto

        I don’t use Linux because I thought he was one of the Peanuts characters.

    • #3162358

      I have no reason to.

      by charliespencer ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      We don’t use it at work.

      At home it takes some time to make sure my various anti-malware utilities are kept up to date. That’s nothing compared to the time than it would take me to backup my HD, install Linux, find and install drivers (the continued discussions of Linux / on-board modem conflicts are discouraging), learn how to use it, locate the OSS counterparts of my Windows-based apps, install them, learn how to use them, install an Windows emulator for those apps that don’t have OSS counterparts, teach my wife how to use it, etc.

      Why bother? Free software? I don’t spend $50 a year on software now. Security? Never been a problem. I keep all my data backed up. Even if I have to rebuild the system from scratch, Ghost will be faster than learning Linux. Anti-MS feelings? I don’t bear any ill-will towards Redmond; I’ve never had a problem with their products that I can’t solve quicker than learning an alternative.

      No, that’s not 10 words, at least not in Base 10.

      • #3151967

        < $50 per year?

        by jbush ·

        In reply to I have no reason to.

        That seems awfully low.
        Do you mind if I ask what sort of software you use that costs so little (I assume we’re talking about the home environment here)?

        I would suggest (for personal use rather than as a work tool as mentioned elsewhere) that you have a look at a live CD of one of the modern distributions.

        Whether you choose to implement it in your home environment is entirely up to you, of course. I know I always feel a bit better about what I’m using when I know what the options are.

        Many of us dual boot Windows and linux without any problems, and the upshot of not being locked into a specific software set or operating system is very gratifying.

        I know one of the key reasons I use open source software is because (at least as far as the software I use goes) I can have the freedom of platform mobility as well as the benifits of standardised software (the GIMP, Blender, Firefox, Inkscape, OpenOffice.org, Eclipse, MPlayer, jEdit, etc. all give me – more or less – the same experience across all the platforms I use), and because I’m not dealing with any proprietary data formats, I’m free to move to alternative software should I choose.

        Few people spend as much time on support forums saying “My new Ubuntu installation worked out of the box!” as they would “I can’t get this BSD thing to work. Grar.”, which I think accounts for the perception that getting hardware to run under linux can be tricky (admittedly I’ve got one or two bits that took a bit of effort, but before I installed, I did some research to see what was and wasn’t supported).

        • #3153544

          Yep.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to < $50 per year?

          The software I use to run a fantasy racing league is $25 annually – http://www.greenflagracing.com . Now that I think about it, that isn’t even my money; it comes out of the league dues, along with the 1and1 hosting fee. I treat myself to a game or two a year from PopCap ( http://www.popcap.com/ ) occasionally – $20. That’s it. I use my home box for running that league, web surfing, e-mail, MS Money, and some low end games. No MORPG, no multimedia, no DVD drive, no music, no movies, no photo editing. JPG’s get saved just as they came from the camera. I have a legal copy of Office 03 I received from MS as a promo; only Word and Excel are installed.

          I appreciate your suggestion, but I still haven’t seen a reason to try a live CD on my home machine, much less set it up dual boot, other than as an academic exercise. Multiple platforms and proprietary formats are not issues for me. I haven’t heard of many of the programs you named, but I probably don’t use their MS / proprietary counterparts. I’m sure almost any distro would work with the basic hardware I have, except possibly the modem. But why bother? I could be weeding the rosebed instead.

        • #3152725

          Still doesn’t add up

          by jbush ·

          In reply to Yep.

          Does the cost of your operating system factor into this (when spread across the years at $50 intervals (or less if you’re buying something else that year)?

          Do you use third party firewall or antivirus software? A packaged version of Norton AntiVirus with one year’s subscription retails here for about the $75AU mark.

          You claimed a “why bother” attitude towards free and open source software. Within that context if you use any spyware, antivirus packages or imaging software (such as Norton Ghost) those alone would put you above budget.

          Linux sometimes has issues with dialup modems (mostly with ‘winmodems’ though), but unfortunately, without broadband, linux is far less feasible to use in terms of getting updates, software, etc.

          Whether you check it out or not is your call. Gardening is good though.

        • #3152703

          Sure it does,

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Still doesn’t add up

          The OS came with the computer. If I was a business and amoritizing the purchase, you would have a point. I’m not; I’m an individual who paid for the OS up front with the box. If you want to separate the cost of the hardware from the software (which Dell didn’t do on the invoice), then I was over budget once, four years ago.

          I’m using McAfee VirusScan 8 on the company license, negotiated to include employees’ home computers including updates. The basic versions of ZoneAlarm, Search and Destroy, and AdAware are free, as are the updates. My copy of Ghost 7 is a legal copy with CD and license, taken home with departmental permission when we purchased a new version at work in exchange for a $10 donation to the employee scholarship fund. It is no longer in use on any machine at work. It’s old but it does what I need. We frequently sell or give away older hardware and software.

          I don’t have a “why bother” attitude toward FOSS. I’m viewing this in Firefox right now. I love Gravity when I’m hitting the newsgroups. Free software is not limited to Linux apps. I don’t care if it’s open source since I wouldn’t know what to do with the code anyway.

          “without broadband, linux is far less feasible to use in terms of getting updates, software, etc.”

          Thanks for the info. I don’t see myself getting broadband until the prices drop to under $25 U.S., without all those fine-print requirements that I also bundle TV cable and telephone service. I don’t do enough to justify the cost.

        • #3151753

          Cheap Broadband

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Sure it does,

          SBC/Yahoo…$12.99 a month if you sign up on-line. One year contract only. No strings attached other than being in their service area.

          And many of the ISP’s that I work with at work offer discounted or free internet access to our company employees.

          The cable companies are good at this. They offer the commercial service to our employees for the residential rate.

          That means same day, onsite tech support, 7Mb down and 1Mb up, and a static IP.

          Work those relationships if you have them.

          We have 23 remote locations and they usually give us free cable TV if we sign up for their internet service.

        • #3159470

          Broadband for under $25

          by rlambert1 ·

          In reply to Sure it does,

          I pay a little over $16 per month (including taxes and fees)for broadband from Verizon. And, that’s not an “introductory offer”

        • #3159458

          Futility

          by beowulf_cam ·

          In reply to Sure it does,

          Palmetto, you’re never going to change the mind of jbush… Sounds like a committed Linux geek who will never admit any positives in Windows. You know, MS = EVIL, Linux = GOOD… 🙂 Both O/S have their own pros and cons. You pointed out the best reasons for maintaining Windows. Our company has a whole lot of money tied up in MS products — it would take some major convincing to toss the investment.

          Linux is still too geeky for the end user. Maybe eventually it will become a polished product. Our users require results now. You can’t consider the cost of software and machines in a vacuum. You also have to consider the cost of downtime, training users and trying to make apps work that users want. We have a lot of third part software that is designed for Windows – Linux isn’t an option at this time.

          I installed Linux at home at got rid of it after a couple of months. Too much futzing around to get stuff to work. It just didn’t seem that useful. Keep in mind, I use my machines for work NOT games.

        • #3151592

          beowulf_cam, I don’t want to change jbush’s mind.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Sure it does,

          I’m only trying to point out to him that it doesn’t matter if the software is free when I rarely install new software. Rabbit food could be free, but I don’t want it if I have no interest in raising rabbits.

        • #3161295

          Nice

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to beowulf_cam, I don’t want to change jbush’s mind.

          Rabbits, is that Of Mice and Men? Been reading lately? That was funny.

        • #3161149

          rickk, no comprendo

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to beowulf_cam, I don’t want to change jbush’s mind.

          I’ve never read “Of Mice and Men”, so I didn’t get your reference. My leisure reading is almost completely sci-fi / fantasy.

          “Rabbit food” is an old line in my family about getting a “bargain” on something you didn’t need anyway.

        • #3147042

          Great Book

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to beowulf_cam, I don’t want to change jbush’s mind.

          And a decent movie.

          Written by John Steinbeck.

          About two migrant workers in depression era. One, Lennie, is retarded and has a thing for rabbits.

          Worth checking out.

        • #3151750

          His Point

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Still doesn’t add up

          I think his point is that free doesn’t have to mean open source and free isn’t equal to Linux.

          There are tons of good software packages out there for Windows that are free in addition to what comes out of the box when you buy a PC.

          For example, AVG, Spyware Blaster, Adaware, Spybot, Firefox, Opera, Netscape, Open Office, Diskkeeper Lite, HiJackThis, JAS Capture, NoAds, tons of games like America’s Army, etc.

          All are free, some open source, some not.

          When you purchase a PC you typically get Windows, Works or Office, and some others. Compliment that with other free software and you have a good package that will last you for years.

          Add to that student discounts (if you qualify) and company handouts and you have one hell of a system for very little money.

          You can’t characterize Windows systems by the generalization that everyone runs out to the store and pays full retail for everything they want.

          Not fair and not realistic.

        • #3155911

          not a good point

          by ken coe ·

          In reply to His Point

          There are advantages for every OS. I have had many clients which I would not point to Linux. There are arguments against it in many cases, but software and equipment costs are solidly in Linux’ corner.

          Fair and realistic would be remembering that the OS installed in the box isn’t free, and neither are the additional hardware requirements. It would also consider TCO.

          A better point may have been the cost of re-training end users, or a learning curve example of sorts. Thankfully (for the people trying to train), that argument won’t be around for long either.

          With regards to the argument, there are a few points that are not really correct. Here are some specifics.

          A manufacturer does not give you all of that software for free, and almost all of them will leave it out by request. That will cut the cost of the system by a fair margin.

          There is also the issue of hardware cost. Linux needs much less resources available for equal performance. That obviously cuts the cost more.

          There is the cost of maintenance time. I know that someone mentioned that Linux isn’t good without broadband, but I do point out that any given XP system will spend just as much time doing downloads. Did you ever download SP2 with a dialup account? Linux does more frequent updates, but smaller ones. It is a fair balance between the two there.

          There is also the cost of downtime, but that depends on the quality of software you pick, and your ability, so I won’t brag about Linux there.

          Finally, in a commercial (especially enterprise) setting, there is the consideration of Admin time, and Uptime. You need better Admins, but they can monitor and maintain more boxes in less time, with a much broader scope for customization. Uptime is amazing in Linux. I have servers that are only rebooted when upgrading Kernals, and my home systems are rebooted every six months when I clean and check them.

      • #3151955

        The best argument for Windows is convenience.

        by absolutely ·

        In reply to I have no reason to.

        😀

        • #3151950

          Only for those already using it

          by jbush ·

          In reply to The best argument for Windows is convenience.

          Change for change’s sake is dumb (though for learning purposes it’s worthwhile).

          At the end of the day, you need a reason to migrate to a new operating system, or at least a reason that might make a new operating system viable.

          Personally, I don’t think windows is more convenient, but then I use three (completely) different operating systems a day and am more or less used to the idiosyncrasies of each.

          The only reason I choose to boot into Windows is to play Oblivion. And once Cedega supports that, I (‘ll go back the the way it was before it came out and) won’t bother.

        • #3153541

          “Only for those already using it” Right!!!

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Only for those already using it

          That’s my point. It’s more convenient for me because it’s already installed, configured, and I know how to use it. Why inconvenience myself for an academic exercise?

        • #3153483
          Avatar photo

          Well if that was continued to its logical Conclusion

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to “Only for those already using it” Right!!!

          Why are you using XP now?

          If Windows 3 did everything that you needed why change from that?

          Why even move away from DOS onto Windows after all DOS worked well enough for the adverage user back then.

          You change OS’s for the same reason as everyone else to keep a job but for some reason you are limiting your ability to remian employed in the [b]Long Run[/b] and where you can be employed in the [b]Short Term[/b] as well. I’m betting that you have never applied to work for a ISP or even bothered looking for IT jobs outside your confort zone right?

          While you are continuning to insist that Windows is OK I’m constantly told at MS Partner Meetings that I’m expecting [b]Too Much[/b] from an OS and Windows was never designed to work in the manner that I continually ask about.

          Col

        • #3153436

          Answers

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Well if that was continued to its logical Conclusion

          HAL, I value your opinion. None of this is intended as flippant or argumentative.

          The new computer came with XP. I gave my old 98 box to my parents so I couldn’t legally put 98 on the new box, now could I? I’m not running much software on the XP box at home that I didn’t have 98 counterparts for, so I didn’t upgrade for the apps. I had W3 on the 486 box before the 98 machine. I think it’s here at work, still running W3 and proprietary legacy software.

          “You change OS’s for the same reason as everyone else to keep a job …”

          Unlike 95, then 98, then NT, then 2K, then XP, and eventually Vista, Linux isn’t required to keep my job.

          ” … for some reason you are limiting your ability to remain employed in the Long Run” You’re assuming I’m not upgrading my skills at all. My manager and I work on a list every year of what new and upgraded skills I should work on. Topics over the last couple of years have included Server 03, AD, SMS, and VM. Yes, most of those are MS, but we’re an MS shop. Hell, I started out a COBOL programmer and was asked to transition to PC’s and networking in the early 90’s. That required completely overhauling my skills. Please explain how neglecting a technology we don’t use limits my remaining employed in long or short term.

          “I’m betting that you have never applied to work for a ISP … ” I’m betting that less than 5% of TR members have worked for an ISP. I’m sure if I had I would have a different skill set than I do now, but they probably wouldn’t match the skills I need in a manufacturing plant. That can be said of any job: the skills required for one don’t match the skills needed for anther.

          ” … or even bothered looking for IT jobs outside your confort zone right?” Right. I’ve worked for three companies in 22 years in IT. At two of the three (including the current one where I have worked for thirteen years) I enjoyed considerable daily autonomy, reasonable management, pay I consider acceptable, and neither beeper nor cell phone. What’s wrong with remaining with a company I enjoy working for?

          ” … I’m constantly told at MS Partner Meetings that I’m expecting Too Much from an OS … ” I’m not insisting Windows is OK or that it’s the answer for everybody. You can’t find a post anywhere the Internet where I’ve said Windows is anything other than an OS that fits some people’s needs, and several (including in this discussion) where I’ve said in some areas it’s inferior to Linux. Windows fits my existing needs at the house, and I feel the advantages of switching my computer to Linux don’t outweigh the time and effort involved. Your mileage may vary.

        • #3153374
          Avatar photo

          Actuall I wasn’t trying to be flippant either

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Answers

          It’s just with the continual backdating of Vista and MS Licensing problems and cost I can see many people wanting to switch from Windows as their Primary OS to something else in the not to distant future.

          With all the CAM plants that I’ve done work for while they use Windows on the Desktop the designers of the final product tend to use different OS’s ranging from DOS to Fully Fledged Unix depending on the hardware used and what they are making. Things like Microprocessor Controlled Lathes tend to be all DOS Bassed but when you start getting into the big Robotics they are all Unix based systems.

          This is just something that I’ve seen over time as more and more people are getting fed up with MS and it’s Pricing & Licensing Policies. The total lack of Technical Support in the Specalised areas doesn’t help much either

          But as for the idea that [i]if it works don’t change it[/i] I was just asking why change a perfectly good OS to somethign different just because MS tells you to?

          Currently I’m buying copies of XP Pro and installing NT4 onto boxes that will have a very short life and need NT4 to run a program that isn’t going to be rewritten in the foreseeable future. Provided I attach the XP COA to the case this is Perfectly Legal but currently a big bug bear for some companies to accept. These CD’s are never going to be used and they just see it as more of the Bully Boy Tatics from MS and are slowely getting sick & tied of doing business this way. These boxes live On Site where there is heavy Earth Moving Equipment being used to scrape the dirt to a level controlled by Laser sighting equipment all around the site and on the earthmovers and they can get the earthworks to within 2 CM’s of the design so they naturally want to keep using the software as it saves them lots of money in Fuel, over removing dirt and backfilling. Of course the down side is that place is anything but clean and the computers all suffer as a result generally not being expected to last longer than 1 job and if it’s a big one I’ll be building several of the same computers for the job.

          Of course the costs of these machines are factored into the tender for the job but it gets hard to deal with the [b]Bean Counters[/b] who insist that they don’t actually need the XP Pro copy as it is effectively a throw away item and a waste of money. Which really it is. I’m even to this day still buying MS DOS from MS for some computer controlled lathes which kill the controller connected to them every 12 18 months and I do see those licenses as a Waste of Money and nothing more than a MS Tax for using the big expensive tools.

          I’m constantly told that they are unwilling to pay for these Licenses but as I’m unwilling to be the bunny that MS picks on I refuse and suggest that they ring MS and ask why [b]It IS So.[/b]

          On the other side of the coin stolen or destroyed computers covered by insurance don’t require the selling of replacment MS Product as the Insurance Companies will not accept this and MS doesn’t raise a single complaint.

          I just see something wrong and wasteful in doing things like this for the customer who is paying for a unnecessary product and even it it was acceptiable they don’t get any Tecincal Support from MS for the products that I’m installing. Luckly it’s not an issue with the units that I sell but it very well could be to some companies.

          MS answer is to [b]Migrate to XP[/b] which is really helpful when the software doesn’t run on XP they expect everything to work as Windows is a 1 size fits all to their way of thinking which no OS can be.

          Currently I’m working on a CAM Factory that makes bench tops and the factory floor covers 1 acre and there are 3 floors so I’m using Optical Fibre for the networking runs as there isn’t one under several hundred feet all are too long for CAT Cable and the owner wants not to see any hardware or at least as little as possible and because of the RF that the machines produce WIFI is out of the question.

          Currently I’m not sure of what’s going in the office but I know what’s gong into the Server Room and there are 2 of everything as any stopage causes the destruction of what’s currently in the machines and with imported Marbel this can be very expensive so it requires UPS’s on everything on the factory side of things and a massive Backup PS that will kick in if there are any power outages the UPS’s are just there for safety and to cover the Gap between power sources and for filtering when the Power Sources change.

          I’ve been working with the Designer for 3 months now and it has required weekly site inspections which is a 250 K round trip and I have to hit the builders heavilly I cought them trying to stretch a 420 MT Optical Fibre cable because it was 4 inches too short. Good thing to catch it then rather than attempting to pull another run after the event though. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3152730

          ?

          by jbush ·

          In reply to “Only for those already using it” Right!!!

          You don’t enjoy learning new things?

        • #3152685

          Yes, I enjoy learning new things.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to ?

          But there are so many new things to learn, I have to be selective. Please see my reply to HAL above this one. Why spend time learning something I may not use when I’m required to learn other skills I will use on a daily basis? I haven’t learned AutoCAD, PhotoShop, or Dreamweaver for the same reason. There’s only so many hours in the day; I’m not going to spend all of them on work-related learning.

        • #3153169

          Most People Think Linux is a Box of Cereal

          by jerome.koch ·

          In reply to “Only for those already using it” Right!!!

          or something…98% of the populace never heard of it, and probably never will. Most people would never attempt to get more profecient using an OS than clicking on a desktop Icon. The real growth in home PC sales occured when prices went below $400 dollars and XP came out. Most people only use thier PC to check email download music, and go to porn sites (if you beleive the experts). Once you mention things like recompiling the kernal, thier eyes galze over.

        • #3160909

          recompiling the kernal

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to Most People Think Linux is a Box of Cereal

          Come on now, you know better than to drag that old horse out on the track again.

          I’ve used Linux for 5 years now privately, and we recently set-up 2 RH enterprise servers at work. I have no clue about how to compile the kernel. Once it was needed for my video card, and it was done automatically. I never use a command line either.

          Users can use any OS. All they need is to press icons.

        • #3160189

          Cereal, kernels, I get it!!!

          by ajole ·

          In reply to Most People Think Linux is a Box of Cereal

          but as far as your post goes, pretty true. The only thing, IMHO, keeping Linux from more use on the desktop is that Linux excludes the average Joe User from calling (or IMing) their friend and saying, I found this cool thing at the XYZ site, download it and install it! In Windows they can, in only a few clicks, be seeing what their friend is seeing. In Linux, they can’t. They have to be “better” or more capable users, or they can’t install it, or configure it, or for that matter even choose the correct file(s) to download for their distro!

        • #3160178

          not so

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Cereal, kernels, I get it!!!

          The perception that you have to compile things from source to install software on Linux is persistent, but incorrect. I’ve compiled a grand total of two applications that I’ve used on my Linux systems over the years, and I’m an expert user. The common “Average Joe” needn’t compile anything at all. There are point-and-click interfaces for installing software that don’t even require you to open your browser. Can you imagine (to compare to the Windows world) being able to use something like the Add/Remove Programs dialog to install office suites, computer games, image editors, CAD/CAM software, integrated development environments, IM clients, media players, CD rippers/burners, VoIP software, and pretty much everything else under the sun without ever having to so much as press the eject button on your CD-ROM drive? I can, because I use Linux.

          Why would I want to search Google for crappy free software when I can have high quality free software without ever having to open my browser?

        • #3160923

          Evolution

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to “Only for those already using it” Right!!!

          No of course you should not change. Stay where you are.
          This thing was good enough for my dad.
          We have been throwing money at the supplier for 2 decades now.
          The alternatives doesn’t work
          It is impossible to learn something new
          We know what we have – we don’t know what we get.
          This time they will get it right.

          .. the road to hell is littered with good excuses, and many more than the few listed here.

          When the wind af change blows, some people build a shelter, others build a windmill.

        • #3160787

          Better Analogy

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Evolution

          Windows is the shelter and windmill.

          Linux is Don Quixote.

          🙂

        • #3160267

          terrible analogy

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Better Analogy

          Even if it provided an accurate representation of the situation, it still wouldn’t be even slightly clever. Go back to the drawing board.

          Do you have anything non-trollish to contribute to the discussion, or are you just here for the flaming?

        • #3160263

          best analogy

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Better Analogy

          windows is the straw house built by the first little piggie
          osx is the stick house by the second piggie.
          linux is the brick house built by the third.

          balmer is the wolf.

        • #3160246

          By the way . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Better Analogy

          People who live in houses made of Windows shouldn’t throw stones. I’m glad Linux was built from reinforced concrete.

        • #3160106

          Best Analogy

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Better Analogy

          Linux may be a house of reinforced concrete.

          Steel walls, concrete floors, shatter proof glass, etc. Quite sturdy.

          But not very comfortable. It’s cold, cramped, and feels more like a prison than a house.

          Windows is warm, comfortable, and familar.

          I’d rather be in your steel prison during a tornado but I’d rather be in my comfy house with the green grass and leather sofa when it’s time to play.

        • #3160102

          maybe to you

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Better Analogy

          You may find Windows more comfortable due to familiarity than Linux, but that’s just you.

          I’m thoroughly familiar with both Windows and Linux. I find that I’m more comfortable with a couch custom-designed for the shape of my but than one designed by molding it to Bill Gates’ butt, though. I’m living in the lap of luxury here — and I can clone more copies of my house for free any time I like if I want a summer home in the Hamptons, without having to pay the (real estate) developer beaucoup bucks.

        • #3160271

          great line

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Evolution

          I love the line about the winds of change. Where’d you get that?

        • #3160713

          Thanks..

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to great line

          Politeness forbid me to tell where…
          OK – it just popped out while writing.

          I’m so fed-up with these people trying to convince me that once you learned Windows and the OfficePackage, it’s impossible to learn Linux, StarOffice, OpenOffice or whatever. If that’s a problem, they should be prepared for some shocks later.

          I have tricked people into believing that OpenOffice was the newest test version of MS Office by fiddling with icons.They claimed it was very good, and they just loved being able to open any kind of document no matter what kind of document you had open.

          The general user have no reason to be familiar with the OS, it is a leftover from the PC pioneering days of the 80’es. No clerk in a bank, or airline check-in knows anything about the OS on the mainframe they use, they don’t know what make and model, and they certainly don’t know the name of the supplier’s CEO, or cheif software architect. Who’s boss of IBM or IBM SW? But they are experts in the application they use, and that’s what matters.

    • #3162311

      A Few Options

      by firstpeter ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Personally:

      “Oblivion.”

      “World of Warcraft.”

      Professionally:

      “My clients use Windows.”

      “My clients don’t want to invest in the Linux learningcurve.” (okay, I took a liberty there)

      “I can do what I need to now…”

      • #3162221

        Personally:

        by nighthawk808 ·

        In reply to A Few Options

        Cedega. You’d be pleasantly surprised about the ability of Linux to run your favorite games.

        http://www.transgaming.com

        As for “I can do what I need to now”, there are things I can’t do on Windows (or can’t do easily) that I can do on Linux. Except for getting the latest spyware to run, I can’t think of anything I can’t do in Linux that I could do with Windoesn’t.

        As for a Linux learning curve, I’d bet that if I snuck in one night and installed Linux with KDE on all the desktops of some company, most people wouldn’t even notice. And most of the ones who did would probably wonder, “Hey, why does my desktop look so much cooler this morning than it did when I left last night?” They’d probably just assume that you downgraded them to Vista overnight. Basically, if you know how to use a computer, you know how to use a Linux GUI.

        Post edited to correct typographical errur.

        • #3152593

          “Cooler” is a matter of preference

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Personally:

          “Cedega. You’d be pleasantly surprised about the ability of Linux to run your favorite games.”

          Yeah, but why bother?

          “As for ‘I can do what I need to now’, there are things I can’t do on Windows (or can’t do easily) that I can do on Linux.”

          Linux fits your needs and the way you use a computer. That’s not a reason to change if someone is happy with Windows.

          ” …if I snuck in one night and installed Linux … most people wouldn’t even notice. And most of the ones who did would probably wonder, ‘Hey, why does my desktop look so much cooler this morning”‘ Basically, if you know how to use a computer, you know how to use a Linux GUI.

          One geek’s “looking cooler” is another end user’s call to tech support because, “Something’s wrong with my computer!” Unfortunately, many corporate end users don’t actually know to use a computer. This is especially true in environments where computers are used by laborers to retrieve information. They know how to perform only the particular tasks they’ve been shown. Their “training” consisted of, “Click this icon, then click ‘Okay’ three times, then click here.” They don’t read prompt boxes or windows, they follow a routine. They don’t have skills, they have habits. Change any one step in that task and they’re lost. I see it several times a day.

        • #3152487
          Avatar photo

          By Laborers

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to “Cooler” is a matter of preference

          You mean people like Doctors, Nurses, Lawyers, and Beacrucratsin general right? As you’ve just done a perfect description on how most of these people use computersin thier work. :^0

          Col ]:)

        • #3152463

          I wasn’t that far up the food chain

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to By Laborers

          I originally meant factory assembly line workers, storeroom restockers, and others required to interact with computerized inventory systems, blueprint and drawing libraries, etc.

          However, I do now recall my brother-in-law, who’s a help desk super. in a Florida hospital. He wishes more doctors and nurses would practice a little cyberhygiene to match their physical efforts.

        • #3151956

          “labourers”

          by jbush ·

          In reply to I wasn’t that far up the food chain

          I used to work in a large office supplies retail chain here in Australia (I believe we opened 500 new stores during my three years there). Surprisingly enough, we used (up until about 18 months ago), a dos based point of sale and inventory system which the managers logged onto at the beginning of the day and weren’t closed until the managers did the same at the end. When we actually started using windows (presumably the newer stores got newer equipment when they opened) about 6 months before that, none of the employees at my site (besides me and the managers) were aware of that change.

          The point is that the sorts of occupations to which you refer run platform obscuring software and the end users (though perhaps not in smaller businesses).

          I’m not saying that everybody should run out and start using Linux in the corporate environment, but I do think it’s worthwhile investigating as an option for any future developments that could encompass such a move within their scope (eg: new hardware rollout, or OS upgrade rollout). At the very least, it reaffirms that you made the right choice by sticking with what you’ve got.

        • #3152292

          Palmetto, you’ve been around

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to “Cooler” is a matter of preference

          long enough to know that I tend to inject a bit of levity into most of my posts. I don’t take myself too seriously, and I treat my posts the same way. There was a bit of humor in that one. I’ve been at a help desk long enough to see stories like this one: We upgraded to the latest version of one of our main applications. The new version’s icon had a different picture, but the same name. Naturally, I received several calls about that application being “missing”.

          But anyway:
          Antivirus.
          Antispyware (preferably more than one).
          Defragging.
          Reinstalling anually to fix a corrupted registry.
          Rebooting just to install a simple patch.
          Application crashes.
          Hoping the vendor will fix the problem that caused that crash (sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t), since you don’t have the source available to do it yourself.
          DRM “inserted rectally” whether you like it or not. Bought a Sony CD lately?
          The BSOD.

          To use your words, “Why bother?”

        • #3154651

          Point by point

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Palmetto, you’ve been around

          AV and antispyware – they’re already installed and self-updating at both work and the house. So I’m not gaining or losing anything by switching. Some would quibble about lost processor speed and unnecessary services, but we’re not taxing the processor, so I just don’t care.

          Defragging – I haven’t defragged a box since I replaced my last NT 4 box. With the size of drives these days, why bother? When I did defrag, it ran in the background. Again, some would criticize the loss of resources, but I never felt it was enough of a drain to worry about it.

          Reinstalling annually – you must have a bad ghost. On 180 supported computers, I probably see two or three registry corruptions annually. I’m often able to fix these booting from the XP CD and running the repair tool. When I can’t, I ghost them with a turn around of less than 60 minutes. Most of the boxes at work run years without any attention at the OS or Office level.

          Patches – Okay, you got me there. But I shut my computer at work down weekly, and my home machine nightly. We push patches out at work in the middle of the night, so the users don’t see the reboots. Sorry, rebooting isn’t an issue for me.

          App crashes – Yeah, these happen too; are you going to tell me they don’t happen in OSS? But they don’t happen at the house, and they aren’t happening often enough at work to make converting worth the trouble. Even if I had the source, I wouldn’t know where to start. I haven’t done any programming other than Office macros in ten years, and back then it was Fortran and COBOL. I don’t have a clue what languages or techniques are used to write Linux-compatible applications. Having access to the code is not a selling point to me, and lack of it isn’t a deal-breaker.

          DRM? We don’t do anything at work and I don’t do anything at home with digital media. I’ve never put a Sony (or any other) CD (or DVD) in my computer. I’ve got a great component CD and DVD players connected to the TV, and a CD player in the car. I’m happy listening to an entire album from start to finish and don’t know how to download music (Way the hell off-topic: all of today’s music is crap 🙂 End of old fogey diatribe.) So DRM is just a philosophical topic to me.

          BSOD? Of the last three I saw, two were due to bad RAM. The third was a failing hard drive. All were under warranty.

          Sure, Windows has it’s flaws, and a lot of them don’t exist in Linux. Some of your points may apply to other Windows users. If that motivates those people to switch to Linux, great. Most of your points don’t apply to me personally. The few that do don’t motivate me to start over learning software skills from scratch. Inertia, baby, inertia.

        • #3152113

          No Defrag!!

          by osumiller ·

          In reply to Point by point

          If your users/you are using your systems much, then you are all missing out on the true capability of the systems if you fail to do a regular defrag. Windows or horrible about just throwing things down where it wants. I was at a clients office the other day, and noticed some real speed degradation. Ran a Defrag analysis, and the Windows XP 180 GB system was 90% fraged. I can assure you that their system is running much faster now, plus the HD is doing much less work.

        • #3152106

          it’s unfortunate

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to No Defrag!!

          Microsoft has been promising an NTFS that doesn’t require defragging since the mid-1990s at the latest, and still hasn’t delivered. Other OSes have had filesystems that don’t require defragging for years now.

        • #3152104

          I try it occasionally.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to No Defrag!!

          I haven’t seen any noticable results. I’m sure if I ran a diagnostic or performance suite I’d see some results, but if the end user doesn’t notice any improvement in performance, why bother?

          I defrag a machine before I use it as the model for a new Ghost image. No one keeps data on the local drives, or has the privs to remove apps.

        • #3152101

          Think about HD life-span

          by osumiller ·

          In reply to No Defrag!!

          defrag makes the hd more efficient, and thus by my way of reasoning, it could in theory extend the life of the device.

          While I don’t have anything in the way of data to back this with, if the drive is not operating at max speed, it should have somewhat less wear on the mechanical parts.

          I have seen systems where no maintenance was occurring that the hard drives quickly had numerous bad sectors, as well as in some cases just quit spinning (note that some of these were probably due to the systems being filled with dust-bunnies).

        • #3151953

          Lifespan + Defrag

          by jbush ·

          In reply to No Defrag!!

          At time of manufacture any hard drive has a finite number of seeks it can make before it’s dead.

          Osumiller mentions that having a less fragmented drive would result in more efficient mechanical movements by the drive and thus extending its lifespan.

          Sounds fairly solid, the amount of drive activity involved with the fragmentation analysis as well as the defragmentation process is waaaaay more than average use (the specifics of fragmentation vs lifespan compared to degfragmentation process vs lifespan would be interesting to know).

        • #3160207

          The Joy of WoW on Windows

          by red_wolf9 ·

          In reply to “Cooler” is a matter of preference

          If you do not play World of Warcraft ignore this entire reply (it won’t make sense to you anyway)

          You?re methodically stalking a Mage (in all purples), for that very moment he mistakenly pulls multiple adds. You can taste the victory, dagger’s are poisoned, Preparation is not on cool off, you close in for the kill, you click Ambush, you prepare to bask in the glow of yet another one shot (I admit sometimes Backstab is need too) kill?

          WHAT THE…?

          Frame rates are suddenly garbage, you?re moving slower then a snail, your still in stealth !, the mage backs away from the adds (through you) and frost novas, locking you in place (with the adds). Your hard drive is grinding (like a 16 year old?s first try with a stick shift), you?re franticly mashing the vanish button, the mage blizzards… you die (he laughs and dances on your corpse). While running back, you cuss Blizzard, 15$ a month (per player) and they can’t buy better servers!!!

          You?re about to rez when WoW decides to minimize itself and you are prompted…

          Windows has finishing installing new updates? Reboot now? Yes/Later

          NOOOOoooo?
          macro /target microsoft /rude

          Anonymous member of The Crows on Stormreaver

        • #3160188

          So turn the darn updates off

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to The Joy of WoW on Windows

          Set the updates to “notify before downloading”, or whatever the exact wording is.

        • #3160107

          Lack of…

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to The Joy of WoW on Windows

          If you don’t know how to avoid this, go back to a typewriter.

          You act as if one can’t turn off automatic updates. Any serious gamer does.

        • #3160101

          hypocrisy

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Lack of…

          That’s interesting. If a Linux user said that, you’d be all over him for being such an “elitist” who doesn’t understand the needs of the “average user”.

        • #3160050

          Not Elitest

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to hypocrisy

          He was being a smart ass and you know it.

          99% of the crowd on TR knows better than that.

        • #3159000

          Oh, I’m sorry . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to hypocrisy

          I should have said “elitest”, not “elitist”. I keep forgetting that you can’t spell, even when you have the proper spelling for a term right in front of your face.

        • #3160709

          Yet if this were Linux

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Lack of…

          you’d say:
          “Only the highly technical can even figure out what the updates are, much less turn them off.”

        • #3199805

          If this were Linux I wouldn’t be able to read these post s or anything

          by craiglarry9 ·

          In reply to Yet if this were Linux

          because I wouldn’t be able to go online or bootup and who knows what other things I would not be able to do. The latest update for Ubuntu 6.06 LTS sucks the worst of all yet. Do they know they are supposed to improve, not regress. This is an important question.

        • #3199738

          Um, CraigLarry, you are trolling, right?

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Yet if this were Linux

          Your question is an implementation specific one, not a general Linux question.

        • #3160680

          Games…..

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to Lack of…

          Any serious gamer would by a piece of HW designed for games, wouldn’t he/she ? Instead of buying a “one size – fits all” device.

        • #3160555

          Let’s get back to the topic.. mea culpa

          by red_wolf9 ·

          In reply to The Joy of WoW on Windows

          I’m well aware the service can be turned off, but unlike most of you, I don’t advise users to disable services. Why, because the average user should never be given that kind of advice. It only leads to them disabling other services like AV updates, which we all know they won?t turn back on.

          The average desktop I come across has 8 or more icons down in the tray. Do you really think your average user is going to click on the little yellow shield and tell Windows to update? Sure they will, the same users has no idea what those icons even do… go ahead ask them. So preach on guys, encourage every gamer to disable any service that might hamper their game play. I guess that’s why so many Microsoft updates silently re-enable Windows update.

          Or Microsoft (and others) could work on intelligent background agents that don?t not consume 90% of the processor and send a system prompt (flagged high priority) that stomps all over running processes. Just a thought.

          Apotheon has an interesting point, people that are smart enough to disable Windows update and smart enough to run it manually all the time, certainly have the mental capacity to use Linux. Therefore the only appropriate response to this forum topic should be? because I?m to lazy.

        • #3160515

          There’s the lazy accusation again.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Let’s get back to the topic.. mea culpa

          ” … people that are smart enough to disable Windows update … have the mental capacity to use Linux. Therefore the only appropriate response … because I?m to lazy.”

          There’s a difference between lazy and choosing to doing something other than learn an OS. There are other things in life besides computers. Spend a weekend working in the garden with me; the light will do your Vitamin D-deprived skin some good.

          I’ve got your “lazy” right HERE.

        • #3158994

          I prefer OJ.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to There’s the lazy accusation again.

          I like my Tropicana Pure Premium orange juice, fortified with calcium and Vitamin D. It doesn’t harm my delicate skin like irradiating it with UV does.

        • #3158869
          Avatar photo

          Must be nice to have a 9 – 5 job

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to There’s the lazy accusation again.

          I bet you even get Holidays as well right? Unfortunately I don’t never have well I did get 4 weeks off when my daughter was born but that was back in 1976 and the only things close to holidays since that time have been Hospital Stays and Court Appearances which took me away from work so they where considered a break from work.

          As for getting out in the Sun and doing some gardening [b]No Thank You Very Much[/b] I’ve already had quite a few Skin Cancers surgically removed by a [b]Blackmailing Bastard of a Surgeon[/b] who stands over you with a sharp instrument and after the first cut suggests that the wants his business computers looked at and then starts shaking his hand making out that he’s so worried about those [b]BLOODY Computers.[/b]

          I’ve currently got it down to once a year seeing him at work though I go to this home on many more occasions than that and make threats of my own. But he defiantly know how to get you to do work that you really do not want to do and despite his little Foibles he’s a really Great Surgeon who always good to know as he insists that he has to keep me alive so that he can call me at unreasonable hours to get advice on how to use the NB that I built him. The last phone call was that he couldn’t get an Internet connection through the Dial Up Modem in the NB and he only had the RJ12 lead plugged into the RJ45 Socket. I wish they where all that easy to fix.

          Oh he’s also the typical Appliance User as well if it aint on the desktop it don’t exist so all the programs that he needs I have to place Shortcuts on the Desktop so he can use them. Then he keeps asking me why I sold him something so hard to work he like most appliance users expects it to work no matter what they do wrong. A perfect example was when they bought a new vacuum cleaner for home it came with a DVD Destruction Manual and he dropped it into the NB and wanted to know how to play it when he rang me 20 minutes latter without knowing if it was a Video CD/DVD or a written manual. He just expects it to work regardless.

          Col

        • #3166337

          Not just MSFT

          by cwbutler ·

          In reply to The Joy of WoW on Windows

          Keep an eye out for the blizzard do9wnloader – we were farming the front end of MC and people kept getting DC’d – finally it dawned on us that the blizzard downloader was doing its thing in the background and if your network connection was even vaguely stressed POOF, you were cut off….

        • #3151790

          don’t think so

          by scouterdude ·

          In reply to Personally:

          Thanks for the cedega link. Figured something like that was out there.

          As to your learning curve comments, no. It’s not THAT similar. Our users would notice bigtime. For myself, I’m reasonably adept with computing and the tools, and am still fairly low on the learning curve. But there are still simple things that I don’t know how to do yet, things readily done in Win or Mac. It’s probably just experience, but – most people don’t like change.

          I’m looking linux desktop stuff as a potential for our users. For the ones tired of all the virii, etc. It will be their choice (at least from my perspective as the service provider.)

        • #3151730
          Avatar photo

          If they are just typical end users

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to don’t think so

          Who only open the OS and then a couple of apps like a Word Processor E-Mail Client and Web Browser and maybe a Spread Sheet or DBase I very much doubt that any would really notice any differentce at all.

          They could only start to experience problems if they attempted to instll some softwate which the Corporate Usage Policy should not allow. But for Opening Office Applications and Web Browsers and Mail Clients other than the different Icons used they would see very little difference and most would be none the wiser. One End User grabed my NB with Debian Loaded and it had the Matrix Screen Saver working and some strange Desktop Theme and their only comment was [i]Where Do I find that Screen Saver/Desktop combination on my work computer?[/i]

          But they managed to use it without a problem and even sent some word processor documents from Open Office 1 to their printer without a single problem. The file was saved to their server as a DOC format file and while the formating might not have been correct when opened in Word it would have still been readable and easy to alter to suit their needs.

          Col

      • #3151945

        Professionally:

        by jbush ·

        In reply to A Few Options

        “My clients use Windows”
        And by knowing how their operating environment can integrate with alternatives, you can offer them more insightful services and recommendations, *and* be ready should that situation change.

        “My clients don’t want to invest in the Linux learningcurve”
        My clients generally don’t want every proposal I give them (particularly when I give them three and tell them to pick). By giving your clients more options, you either a) open up new and potentially better avenues for them or b) reaffirm that they’re better of sticking with what they’re with.
        Plus if they later decide they do want to invest in that learning curve, existing linux experience and knowledge will allow you to provide the support they require.

        “I can do what I need to now…”
        Now that’s what I call forward thinking. If the industry suddenly turns on its head (as it has done many times in the past), you’re going to be left high and dry.

        You don’t have to like Lunix to justify using it.

        (Oh, and World of Warcraft runs with Wine 0.9.5 and above and is also supported by Cedega if that’s the sort of thing you prefer. Cedega suport for Oblivion won’t be far away juding from how many votes it has)

        • #3152822

          Still More Professionally:

          by firstpeter ·

          In reply to Professionally:

          “My clients use Windows”
          I understand Linux. I understand what it can do. That still doesn’t change the fact that my clients use Windows.

          “My clients don’t want to invest in the Linux learningcurve”
          If you’d like some help on selling your clients on your proposals just let me know – my clients generally accept all my proposals… 🙂 But I think you’re missing the point. I know Linux. Worked with it for years. I don’t use it regularly because none of my clients use it, and I prefer to actually USE the applications my clients do – I’ve found it allows for better support.

          “I can do what I need to now…”
          Keep me honest – the world is still, primarily, a Windows-based world, right? So the fact that I can do what needs to be done now is bad, how…? If the world goes Linux I’ll still be in a good position – I’ll just help my clients migrate over. But it ain’t a Linux world yet (nor in the short-term), so…

          I actually happen to like Linux – it just doesn’t make any sense for me to use it (regularly, anyway). It doesn’t offer me any advantages over Windows at this point, so I don’t use it.

        • #3152732

          Apologies

          by jbush ·

          In reply to Still More Professionally:

          From your original post it wasn’t obvious that you had any linux familiarity (especially given that this is a “I don’t use linux” thread).

          If you’re familiar with linux and use it sporadically for learning or out of interest then you’re benifiting form the sorts of things I was talking about in my last post.

          Knowing what you need to know now isn’t a bad thing, but also knowing what you might need to know tomorrow is better.
          We obviously live in different worlds, as my world is more than less a linux world.

          In regards to proposals, if I had a client who wanted to roll out an entirely new infrastructure, I may hypothetically give them three separate proposals, one for an Apple based, system, a linux based system, and a Windows based system. I wouldn’t expect them to pick all three.
          (Realistically, I’d probably be tending more towards mixed networks, perhaps with *nix based servers and windows based clients)

    • #3162223

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by nighthawk808 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      …I have to, I use it because I want to.

    • #3162172

      I don’t use Linux because

      by jmgarvin ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Microsoft tells me it’s bad*…

      * Ok, I’m caught…I use Linux, but I’m just waiting for that comment…

      • #3152592

        I hope you’ll be waiting a while

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because

        Few of us who use MS software believe much of what comes from the Fertiliz.., uh, Marketing Department. Few of us think Linux is bad. Most of us recognize it as a perfectly viable alternative to Windows. We just don’t have reason to learn to use it (or OS X, or Unix, or any other OS or programming language or utility not in use where we work).

        • #3152586

          I dont use linux because..

          by twistabister ·

          In reply to I hope you’ll be waiting a while

          I can never get sound or wireless to work correctly.

        • #3152549

          It’s a pain in the butt

          by ds4211a ·

          In reply to I dont use linux because..

          It’s a pain in the butt to do simple things like download and install a program. It’s a pain in the butt to get my sound card to work. It’s a pain in the butt when you have to be a super geek to even use it.

        • #3152541

          You just don’t understand

          by ramor ·

          In reply to It’s a pain in the butt

          It’s not a pain in the butt. It’s great fun:

          http://www.dumbentia.com/pdflib/moregeeky.pdf

          Now who wouldn’t want an OS like that???

        • #3152533

          That’s a hoot!

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to You just don’t understand

          You’ll probably catch hell for it from some of the more militant Penguinistas, but screw ’em if they can’t take a joke.

        • #3152528

          militant Penguinistas

          by rknrlkid ·

          In reply to That’s a hoot!

          What a phrase! I had to laugh when I saw that.

        • #3152499

          Rock and Roll, don’t laugh too loud

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to That’s a hoot!

          They’ll cross miles of cyberice to beat you with their flippers. (Every try to use a keyboard with flippers? No wonder they’re so cranky!) After you’re stunned or dead, they nibble your body and regurgitate you for their young.

        • #3154462

          no militant Penguinistas here

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to That’s a hoot!

          I guess there must not be (m)any militant Penguinistas here at TR, since nobody seems to be catching hell for that humorous PDF. Someone (rightly) pointed out that its satirical criticism is about seven years out of date, but still credited its amusement value.

          On the other hand, your comment about “militant Penguinistas” might be (mis?)read as insultingly similar to the often abused term “zealot”. Try a semester of Tact 101, third door on the left. Thanks.

          — your friendly neighborhood Debianista

        • #3152480
          Avatar photo

          Great link

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to You just don’t understand

          I’ll send it to the guy from the Real Estate congloromate who quoted 6 hoours to install a new 2003 server for 150 users and spent 10 days getting it to work part way right. :^0

          Eventually the in house guy who spent most of his time redoing pictures of houses finished off that install and then 2 weeks latter pulled the entire thing out threw it in the trash and replaced it with a machine that actually worked. I’m sure that He’ll fully agree with the sedeminents in that link. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3153539

          Um, Moron?

          by havacigar ·

          In reply to Great link

          “who quoted 6 hoours to install a new 2003 server for 150 users and spent 10 days getting it to work part way right.”

          Sorry, but anyone that incompetent shouldn’t be installing anything. He should have been able to do it in 5 hours.

        • #3153478
          Avatar photo

          But it gets even better

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Great link

          This moron supplied and installed the entire system fot this one office and to make matters worse he has the contract to supply this organisation AU wide.

          It’s a perfect case of spending 2 Million $ to make a $25.00 saving.

          They even pay his travel and accomidation expences as well. :^0

          Col

        • #3152329

          Funny but dated

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to You just don’t understand

          In 1998 (when this thing was copyrighted) this was true. However, in the computer world, eight years is approximately four generations. While you’re at it, why don’t you post an ad from the Douglas Aircraft Corporation telling us about how the DC-3 is the most comfortable way to fly? Here, I’ll save you the trouble:
          http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Aerospace/DC-3/Aero29.htm

          I know that you posted that link as a joke, so don’t take this as a flame, but people still believe that what was in there is true. Do you know how many times I’ve heard those things said about Linux today? It’s one of the dead giveaways that the person talking about Linux has never actually used it. But they heard it from a friend who likes computers and once tried to install Red Hat 5.0 back in 1999, so it must be true in 2006. There are people who think that there is no GUI for Linux, but that doesn’t keep them from giving their opinion of it.

          I have no problems with people who have used Linux for more than a day or two voicing their concerns with it. Yet even though only about 5% of the computing population has used Linux, it somehow doesn’t keep 100% of people from sharing their wisdom about it. Probably 99.9% of Linux users have used Windows, so the uninformed opinion-spouting isn’t coming from our camp. The reason you don’t hear people who have used Linux enough to become knowledgeable about it complaining about how bad it is is because once you start to get spoiled by how much better it is than Windows, you never want to go back. That’s one of the reasons Cedega is so popular.

          BTW, no person on this planet has ever uttered the sentence “Yeah, I installed this new SCSI adapter in my system last night and Windows 95 just recognized it and it worked the first time.” Trust me; I’ve been through that before.

          If this makes me a militant Penguinista, then so be it. Viva la revolucion!

        • #3154483

          Now wait a min…

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to Funny but dated

          The DC-3 is STILL flying schedualed service. That’s a damn Good Aircraft. It sure doesn’t belong in the same context as Windows. Please. (and for comfort, any landing one can walk away from is good, and if you can use the aircraft again, it was a great landing!) 🙂

        • #3154377

          You’re right – it was a joke…

          by ramor ·

          In reply to Funny but dated

          …however, sadly, parts that joke are still true today, 8 years later. I wish it was not so, or I would switch. We run MKS Toolkit just to get access to all the great command line tools (grep, vi, which, etc) that Windows didn’t provide before 2003 Server R2. I’ve installed Red Hat 5, 6, 7.2, Fedora Core, and Enterprise 3 over the years, and they’ve all been a huge time suck with no major benefit to me.

          Out of the 50 servers in this office, 5 of them run Red Hat Enterprise 3 or Solaris 9. We used to run AIX as well. I’m not saying I’m any kind of Unix expert, but we do run it, and have for years.

          I’m sure it has a lot to do with familiarity, but the *nix boxes are simply much harder to administer. Even with Enterprise 3 and a hardcore Linux guy (one of the most technical guys I’ve met in 14 years of IT work, and he only did Unix admin before he started working for me last year), we recently spent about an hour mucking about in various config files to get VNC set up correctly, and another two hours on top of that to get Samba working. And even with all that time there are still issues – Samba can’t deal with Windows DFS shares, and the security doesn’t integrate well with our 2003 domain (maybe it could if we spent a few more hours on it). It took so long that we didn’t even bother to do it on the next two Enterprise 3 boxes we built – we just walk in to the server room if we need GUI access, and other than that we use ssh for terminal access and FTP for file transfers. Like most IT departments, we are highly understaffed and simply don’t have the time to waste on this stuff.

          Even simple things like getting the Sybase Server to start when the machine boots still requires knowing the correct rc.local file to put the startup script in. You just can’t argue that remembering which file it goes in (and knowing how to use vi to get it in there) is as easy as having it show up in Services automatically, already set to start. And that’s not any knock on vi – the MKS Toolkit version of vi is about the only text editor I ever use. 🙂

          So, yes – it was a joke, and yes – it is dated, and DEFINITELY yes – no one has ever uttered the phrase, “Yeah, I installed this new SCSI adapter in my system last night and Windows 95 just recognized it and it worked the first time.” But speaking as someone who supports both environments, Linux still has a ways to go before I’ll start using it on my desktop. And if it doesn’t work for me, think how much farther away it is for my parents, or less-technical friends, or (since we’re pulling statistics out of the air) 99% of everyone I know. 🙂

        • #3152177

          Points

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Funny but dated

          Samba can be a real bear for two reasons:
          1) It has a HUGE number of options to choose from
          2) It is working with something it MS doesn’t want it to work it

          Let me point you to a link for some DFS (which can be a PITA depending on your authentication scheme) help:
          http://www.faqs.org/docs/samba/appa.html

          As for the rest of it:
          I HIGHLY recommend a tool called webmin (www.webmin.com). It is a great centralized, web based sys admin tool for Linux. You can setup a ton of stuff in there and do typical admin tasks.

          As for getting services to start at boot time(I’ve forgotten what you mentioned) there is a tool that Red Hat uses called ntsysv. Try that out.

          From your post I have to say a major problem is simply that you aren’t familiar with the way Linux works. Once you get over the hump (the MS stupid way), you’ll see that administering *nix is WAY easier…

        • #3160893

          SCSI Adapter

          by vetch_101 ·

          In reply to Funny but dated

          I have to say – I have uttered a sentence very similar to “Yeah, I installed this new sCSI adapter in my system last night and Windows 98 just recognized it and it worked the first time.” – I said it, cos I was utterly, utterly, utterly gob-smacked!
          And, I hate to say it, but much as I love tinkering with OSes and the like, and am moving all my 9 home machines across to *nixes, I’m still finding that I have lots of problems with drivers – especially wireless cards.

          I’ve got a PCMCIA wireless card that works fine on Windows, and seems to work ok on Linux, until I ifup the interface – when it literally hangs the system. I’ve also got a PCI wireless card which I’m trying to run with NDISulator on FreeBSD (a card that someone else seems to have got working on FreeBSD via the same method) and it pulls up a kernel panic… I’m getting tempted to move to FreeBSD for the laptop in order to make use of it’s native driver for the PCMCIA card, and to Linux for the FreeBSD box, because I’ve got a linux driver for the PCI card… This may or may not be do-able, and it may or may not work…

          I admit – I am not even a power user in Linux, but I could have installed about 1000 wireless cards in Windows with the time it’s taken me to get it running so far, and two OS rebuilds to come I may still be looking at issues…

          Much as I enjoy doing this sort of thing, and have (evidently) a scarey amount of free time to waste – I suspect most people would give up in frustration at this point…

          But this is one of those issues about Vendor support… If more people used FOSS, there would be more demand for vendors to provide drivers, rather than relying on the community to make them.

        • #3152181

          Funny, cute, and wrong

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to You just don’t understand

          A) Linux is PnP…as a matter of fact is support hardware better and more often than Windows. Rarely will I need to dig up that driver disk because Linux just “knows” what my devices are. If it doesn’t know it has a good generic that will make my device work WELL out of the box.

          B) I can install an “everything” install of Fedora Core 5 (~7 gig) in about 1 hour. It is just clicking next and choosing things like timezone and root password. WAY harder than Winders…jeez

          C) I’d rather have a choice of window managers than be forced to use a kludgy, ugly, and HEAVY one. Hell I can use everything from TWM (the old unixish GUI) to KDE or Gnome.

          What it boils down to is this: Why wouldn’t you want choice?

        • #3152142

          I’ll take a shot at it at your “choice” question

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          “Why wouldn’t you want choice?”

          I’ve tried this before, but I rarely articulate it clearly. Please note that I am not saying choice is bad, either explicitly or implicity.

          Choice is confusing. From the choice of disto to GUI (or lack of one), assorted office suites, this package manager, that installer, etc, the variety can be overwhelming to someone who is used to “one size (trys to) fit all”. If you don’t have any background experience to draw on, it becomes intimidating. The constant arguing between distro factions adds to the confusion.

          Choice reduces transportable skills. If I learn the Windows GUI and the Office suite, I can be reasonably certain the skills I learned will apply at the next company that uses Win / Off, or when I go to Cousin Bob’s. If I learn to use one Linux GUI and one OSS suite, that doesn’t mean they’ll be in use the next place I work, or that Aunt Sue will have the same distro.

        • #3152120

          installation and choice

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          jmgarvin:
          B) I once did a Debian install in less than twenty minutes and less than twenty keystrokes. That’s tough to beat.

          Palmetto:
          You’re right, sometimes choice can be confusing to the newbie. Your discussion of that confusion seems to extend beyond the state of being a neophyte, however, and I think your point falters there. By learning some basic Linux skills (use of manpages, how a package manager works, et cetera), you can then transfer skills from one toolset to another very easily. For instance, package managers all tend to have functional interface characteristics in common, and learning the differences between them is typically as easy as skimming a couple of manpages.

          This is one of the reasons I advocate learning to outgrow the Windows-indoctrinated cliphobia: with the exception of a couple of filesystem quirks that can vary slightly across two or three major families of Linux distribution, Linux system administration at the command line interface is pretty much exactly the same across distributions, and pretty much the same set of basic tools will always be available — assuming the owner of the machine didn’t decide to really customize the hell out of the system to the point where it’s pretty much no longer recognizable as Linux. I’ve been known to reconfigure my Windows systems in the past in ways that made it exceedingly difficult for other people to accomplish basic tasks, simply because the Windows defaults are so obtuse that I was able to get something like a 20% productivity boost by making such custom configurations. Linux is more flexible than Windows, so of course it’s possible to make it even more different, and even more difficult for a low-skill user to make his way around, but it takes a bit of real work to get to that point. The CLI is, short of seriously perverse desire to just be different, fairly constant across installs.

        • #3151778

          more on the choice issue

          by scouterdude ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          Mainly to Palmetto, but no reply button there.
          You say Choice is Confusing. Yes, it can be. Especially if you’re a support provider/helpdesk. But it’ really comes down to skills, and how applicable they are. Ya think a Ford trained mechanic could fix a Chevy? Probably – the concepts are close enough. segue to…

          Choice reduces transportable skills. Excuse me? How does learning multiple options make you less valuable? Agreed, Win/Office will remain in demand for the forseeable future. But how is knowing OpenOffice or other going to hamper you? When you learn multiple methods, you start working on a different level – you expect this product to do this function, you just have to find the ‘how’.

        • #3153082

          ScouterDude,

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          When the Reply button is missing, go to the message on the next-to-the-last level and Reply to it. This results in a bunch of entries at the bottommost level, so be sure to put the name of the intended reader in the subject.

          “Especially if you’re a support provider/helpdesk … ”

          I’m not looking at the question of choice from a support point of view (although that sucks too; that’s why companies try to standardize on one app for each purpose), but as an end user.

          “Ya think a Ford trained mechanic could fix a Chevy? Probably …”

          The auto repair analogy is nice. Imagine that same mechanic is not already trained on Fords, but is new to the field. He’d like to start learning skills, but there are over 100 different car models (representing distros in this analogy). Where to start?

          “But how is knowing OpenOffice or other going to hamper you? When you learn multiple methods, you start working on a different level – you expect this product to do this function, you just have to find the ‘how’.”

          It won’t hamper you at all, but it may not help. Let’s say you take the time to add OpenOffice to your MS Office skills. But in a “choice is everything” world, how do I know I’m going to wind up working with OpenOffice when I’m job hunting? How do I know which GUI I’m going to be looking at? Do I have to learn them all? Even if I know what I want to do, I’m still going to lose some productivity every time I have to learn how to exercise those old skills in a new app. A common standard app makes it easier to transport my knowledge.

          I’m not opposed to having choices, but along with the good that comes from it there are negatives that many pro-choice advocates seem to be unaware of.

        • #3153061

          re: the “negatives” of choice

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          Palmetto . . . those of us who are worth addressing on the issue (since there are people only worth ignoring in every camp — even mine), even as advocates of greater choice, realize that there are always trade-offs. In the matter of whether or not to have more (good) choices, however, the negatives are pretty much confined to a largely imagined increase in convenience. Even if these convenience costs were all completely relevant, the things you have to trade away for that convenience constitute a far greater cost.

          There is a convenience cost in learning a new application’s way to do the same old things, of course. In the real world, as it commonly exists, that cost comes when learning a non-Microsoft office productivity application like OpenOffice.org Writer instead of MS Office Word. There’s a downside in convenience, however, in that because MS doesn’t play nicely with others, there will always be people who are inconvenienced by your choice, and you’ll be inconvenienced whenever you deal with them. This is the sort of thing the Open Document Format (ODF) is meant to solve.

          With a common, standardized document format that is maintained independently of any corporation trying to leverage everything under the sun for market dominance, free to be implemented by any office suite, you can use whatever application you like to read and write documents. Unfortunately, this sets long-term convenience against short-term convenience: since many people have to use MS Word at work at this time, it’s sort of a necessity to learn to use it. It becomes inconvenient in the short term to learn to use something like OpenOffice.org or Star Office as well. In the long term, continuing to support the Microsoft near-monopoly on office productivity suites by refusing to learn how to use a competing application, thus ending up having to get more copies of MS Word everywhere you do word processing, continues to support Microsoft in its efforts to marginalize everything else by fighting compatibility at every turn. If MS Office were dragged into the realm of fair competition so that it would have to support the same document formats as everyone else (by way of actually making competitors popular enough that MS can’t just ignore them or try to shut them out), people would be able to pick whatever office productivity suite they liked and use it always. Once again, we’d be in the position of only really needing to learn one office productivity suite for most purposes, but your documents would now be fully portable across all major applications, and the vendor of your application wouldn’t be trying to “embrace, extend, and extinguish” widely compatible document formats.

          In other words . . . yes, we’re (where “we” means “most advocates of greater choice”) fully aware of the “negatives” of increased choice. We just also realize that, overall, those negatives are mostly illusory and shortsighted.

        • #3153045

          Choice…

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          Choice is good, no argument there, I want choice in flavor of Soda, Color of Car…
          On the other hand, I don’t want a choice in the arrangement of the Gas, Break and Cluth pedals in my car. I want them to be in the same place, no matter what car I get in.
          I wish there wasN’T choice when it came to credit card transaction handling at stores. I get really annoyed trying to remember which procedure to use in which store (swipe the card first, push the red button first, push the credit button first, give the card to the cashier…).

          I don’t want a choice of a dozen different GUI’s. I just want one that works.

          Choice for the sake of choice… just not a compelling argument.

        • #3153031

          If you don’t like choice, then don’t choose

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          Pick an install and go with the defaults. OO mirrors most of what MS Office looks like. Gnome (and I’m sure KDE) can be made to look EXACTLY like XP.

          Linux doesn’t “rearange pedals” as you would state. MS does this with every “new” product.

          The FLOSS world tries to make it easier to move to *nix by creating tools that look like the tools from MS. But MS never did design anything properly. Apparently nobody at MS has read “The Design of Everyday Things.”

          So, if you don’t like the choice, remove it from YOUR install, not mine.

        • #3152999

          jmg, FLOSS?

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          We’ve gone from OSS to FOSS to FLOSS. What’s the ‘L’ stand for?

          Hopefully FLOOZIE is next. You open source people generate acronyms like Windows generates Blue Screens of Death 🙂

        • #3154331

          FLOSS and GUI choices

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          Palmetto, regarding FLOSS: Free/Libre/Open Source

          shardeth, regarding GUI choices: If you want a GUI that just works, and don’t care about how it’s arranged, then use whatever’s put in front of you. I don’t care. What I do care about is the GUI that I — not you, I — am using. I use a window manager called WindowMaker. Most people don’t — most people are happy with GNOME, KDE, XFCE, or IceWM. There’s a fairly strong contingent that likes the various *box window managers (Fluxbox, Blackbox, et cetera). There are some who prefer FVWM, and some who like really obscure options like PekWM. Enlightenment is really popular with a particular subset of Linux users. I’m still happiest with WindowMaker, though.

          Your lack of imagination shouldn’t interfere with my options. The fact that I am more productive with a window manager that doesn’t get in my way shouldn’t prevent you from having a crufty, bloated thing like KDE or Windows Explorer to satisfy your desire for clicky buttons and animated little whirligigs.

          Something a lot of people seem to be missing is this:
          Open source software (like many of the available window managers for Linux and other unices) is created because somebody wants it. All that choice you say is unnecessary exists specifically because someone wanted it. It’s not gratuitous or redundant. It’s something someone wanted and needed.

          About 98% of distributions default to either KDE or GNOME, though. Is two choices too many for you, shardeth?

        • #3154044

          Choice (clarification)

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          Easy there fellas, no one is trying to take away your specific desktop floral arrangement. I am not talking about removing choice. I am talking about unnecessary choice. A physical example.
          Let’s say I don’t like the Black,Brown,Red,Orange,Yellow,Green,Blue,Violet,Grey,White Coding scheme for Resistors. I Think it makes so much more sense to just do the primary and secondary colors in order around the color wheel: Red, Orange Yellow Green Blue Purple (and then finish up with Black,Brown,Grey,White). It is easier to remember that way. So what happens if I start producing my own resistors with my choice of color scheme? Now you have to test every resistor to see if it really is the value you think it is.

          There is no value in having a choice as to whether the RC files are in /etc or /etc/rc.d

          and I don’t think I really need a choice as to the appropriate place to stick various binaries (/bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/sbin /usr/local/bin /usr/local/sbin). I would much rather be able to depend on a specific binary being in a specific location so that I don’t have to go hunting for it.

          You want 2 billion ways to organize your icons, play your music files, or display your scantily clad girlie pictures, be my guest, but why not standardize the underlying API so that what works here, works there? (Gnome and KDE are making progress in this area, so apparently I am not the only one who thinks so)

        • #3161068

          That has nothing to do with the GUI.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          The underlying filesystem hierarchy (to which you inexplicably refer as “the underlying API”, even though that’s not even vaguely the right term) is pretty much standard for everything except the big RPM distros — which all do some things their own damned ways without regard for common sense or standardization. As for the various different binary directories, they exist to separate user binaries, system binaries, root binaries, and so on, for ease of system administration. If you don’t understand how they’re organized, don’t assume that means they shouldn’t be organized.

        • #3161049

          jmg, “Pick an install”

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          “Pick an install and go with the defaults”

          Hell, picking an install is the hardest part!!!

        • #3161046

          If that’s the hardest part . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          . . . it shouldn’t be any difficulty at all to install and use Linux.

        • #3161022

          I am aware…

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          That FileSystem and API are different things. I offered the filesystem discrepancies as an example (like the resistors, which by the way also have nothing to do with the API, just to clarify) 😉

        • #3161021

          Yup.

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          What you said is pretty much what I’m saying…

          ” is pretty much standard for everything except the big RPM distros — which all do some things their own damned ways without regard for common sense or standardization”

        • #3161019

          Various Binary Directories: “Organized” (yeah right)

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          “If you don’t understand how they’re organized, don’t assume that means they shouldn’t be organized.”

          If they actually were organized/consistent, it wouldn’t be a problem. I have seen the same app wind up in different directories, from one distro to the next. Evidently the folks making it are struggling with the definitions too.

        • #3160989

          different locations != disorganized

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          There are a couple distros (Fedora and Mandriva come to mind) that can’t keep things straight, but in general the filesystem hierarchy is quite well organized across different distributions. You just need to understand that, for instance, the same application might appear in /usr/bin on one install and /usr/local/bin on another, depending on whether it’s part of the standard configuration in a given network. The differing locations indicate differing purposes within differing networks.

          Here:
          http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html

          Read about the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard.

        • #3160970
          Avatar photo

          OK Palmetto I’ve just finished building my most recent White Box

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          I’ve got about 12 Different Cd for each piece of hardware in it and I want to install XP which of the 7 versions should I pick?

          Should I go with OEM or Retail?

          What is Volume License and it’s advantages?

          All my new hardware is MS Certified and it’s still [b]Plug & Pray[/b] not [b]Plug & Play![/b]

          If you are only interested in buying off the self systems with the worst combinations of things installed in them then [b]Dell Hell[/b] would be ideal for you but personally I like to chose what goes into my system and have Decent Hardware that I know is going to continue working for quite a while unlike the Dell Box that I got delivered here Sunday as a urgent Repair that just had to be done now because it was 3 days out of warranty and the PS had failed because it was so underpowered I’m surprised that it lasted that long. Even them the 480 W Antec True Power Supply that I used was still cheaper than the Dell 250 W propriety unit that came with the computer.

          If you think that all you need to install Windows is one Dell Box and the recovery CD you are living in [b]Ga Ga Land[/b] as very few real Windows Installations are achieved by just dropping in the Windows OEM CD and running it. After you finish the Windows Install you then start on all the hardware that Windows doesn’t have the drivers for. Little unimportant things Video Cards, Sound Cards and Capture Cards not to mention Printers Scanners and any other USB Device that you plug in that needs it’s own drivers.

          MS isn’t that easy to really live with unless you have the most basic box incapable of doing any real work and without an attached Printer or scanner and a LAN connection that has Windows Drivers which the higher speed ones don’t.

          Col

        • #3160945

          Whatever…

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          “I’ve got about 12 Different Cd for each piece of hardware in it.”

          Complete bull and utter FUD. I’ve never seen a retail system sold with a 12 CD set to install. That’s Linux you are confusing with. Do you even have 12 components in your system that require drivers?

          “Should I go with OEM or Retail?”

          Like the average user ever comes across this problem. Buy a prebuilt system, get OEM. Build your own or upgrade later, go retail. Now that was a simple answer.

          Plug and Pray is so over used. Stop using Win 95/98 and use Win XP you’ll see what Plug and Play is and how well it does work for the most commonly used components.

          Open your Dell PC and I’d venture to say you’ll see many of the same parts you buy retail to build your own system minus hours of work. They use Maxtor, Western Digital, Intel, Broadcom, ATI, nVidia, etc. Unless of course you buy the $299 system.

          The only difference is they buy millions at a time thus save money and pass some of that onto you.

          Dell also has one of the best warranties out there. Better than having to keep track of the various part by part warranties of a custom built system. With Dell, you can get a 3 year, all included warranty. Custom built you get some 90 days, some 1 year, some 3 year, some no year.

          Every HP system I have purchased in the last 2-3 years only requires 2 CD’s to reformat. One is the Windows CD and the other is the drivers and misc crap the manufacturer puts on there. I reinstall using the Windows CD only, download a current drivers, and skip the crap on the second CD.

          The only part of your rant I would agree with is printers and that is the printer manfacturers problem. Most printers now have a CD full of about 400-500MB of crap. I don’t make T-shirts, I don’t want their crappy software, I don’t care about photo editing (I use Photoshop), etc.

        • #3160925

          Rikk, it’s not FUD, truth

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          “Complete bull and utter FUD. I’ve never seen a retail system sold with a 12 CD set to install. That’s Linux you are confusing with. Do you even have 12 components in your system that require drivers?”

          Let’s see. I need CDs for my wireless drivers, my video card, my sound card, oh and don’t forget Nero so I can burn CDs, along with my DVD viewing software (ala Interwin), and my DVD burning software. Oh, and the OS and application disks. Plus the plethora of other CDs vendors ship just to get your system running…

          “Plug and Pray is so over used. Stop using Win 95/98 and use Win XP you’ll see what Plug and Play is and how well it does work for the most commonly used components.”

          I just plugged my Hawking wireless card into my laptop…Why doesn’t XP recognize it? I also bought this new video card, XP doesn’t see that either…Oh and my USB devices aren’t so universal either, I need a driver just to use them.

          “Dell also has one of the best warranties out there. Better than having to keep track of the various part by part warranties of a custom built system. With Dell, you can get a 3 year, all included warranty. Custom built you get some 90 days, some 1 year, some 3 year, some no year.”

          A lot of parts come with a 3 year warrenty. So part by part, for free, I get the same warrenty as Dell. ‘Course some only come with a 1 year, so I’ll have to pay the extra $20 or $30 for the extented. While Dell makes managing your user desktops easier, I wouldn’t say they produce a quality product. And E270s? 10 to 1 you have serious power supply issues….We do

        • #3160883

          jmg: Dell

          by vetch_101 ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          I have to say, I’ve always been extremely happy with the machines I’ve bought from Dell – I’ve worked in organisations that are exclusively Dell, organisations that are IBM, organisations that go with smaller online vendors, etc, etc…
          I’ve never found a company that provides the kind of after sales support I get from Dell, and some have been down-right awful… I’ve waited for 30 mins on some calls just to report that the hardware is faulty and needs to be replaced.

          I’m also consistently impressed with the suite of diagnostic tools they ship in their utility partition. I have a fairly good set of tools myself, but I don’t always know which is going to be the best one in any given circumstance – with their diagnostic tools, Dell ask you what errors you are experiencing and then run the appropriate tests. I have to say it really impressed me first time I saw it…

          Ok, Dell may not be bespoke, but for most of the companies I’ve worked with, that don’t have limitless IT budgets, I would recommend Dell every time.

          (Even if afterwards I install Linux over the Win XP, a lot of the time, even with the cost of the license, the cheapest boxes work out cheaper than I could buy the parts for separately…)

        • #3160833

          Jmgarvin, Stop Being Stupid

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          Sure, you can easily get to 12 CD’s to install a “base” system if you start counting all your programs that did and didn’t come with the system.

          I’d bet it takes about 50 CD’s to get my “base” system at home up and running.

          Here is Hal’s quote though:

          “I’ve got about 12 Different Cd for each piece of hardware in it and I want to install XP which of the 7 versions should I pick?”

          Nowhere in there do I see anything about DVD viewing, Nero, and manufacturer crap. He was pretending to make it sound as though it takes 12 CD’s to install Windows and it’s related hardware, nothing else.

          And what is this 7 different versions thing? Utter nonsense. Not to over simplify but here’s the choice for 99% of the world…Win XP Home or Win XP Pro. That’s it. Pretty simple.

          Sure, it can get more complicated from there for an admin, but 99% of the world aren’t network admins.

          99% of the world does either Home or Pro, OEM or retail. Done. End of story.

        • #3160797
          Avatar photo

          OK Rick please explain :D

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          The system is for myself and I need a bulk amount of processing power so this is what in it.

          1 X Intel SE7501 HG2 M’Board with build in SCSI

          2 X Intel Xeon 3.2 GIG CPU’s

          1 X Video Card ATI Radeon 256 MEG

          1 X Soundbalster Audigy 2

          1 X Aver Media Studio 3 Video Capture Card

          1 X SATA Controller Card

          1 X DVD Burner/Player

          Then there are the accessories that I’m using

          1 X Creative Vista Web Cam

          1 X Canon USB Scanner

          1 X Samsung CLP-500N Laser network Printer

          1 X Canon i965 Bubble Jet Printer

          1 X XP Pro OEM CD

          Now by my count just for the necessary drivers that is 12 CD’s all of which are required to actually load the machine. Once Windows is loaded.

          Windows Installs and the following [b]Do Not Work[/b]

          The Gigabyte LAN Connections on the M’Board both of them, The Video Card unless you are happy with the Default drivers supplied by MS, the sound Card not at all, the Video Capture Card not at all, the SATA Card not at all, The DD burning Program which just isn’t there, The DVD Player sort of if you will accept Media Player as the Default DVD Viewer which isn’t really up to scratch, Both Printers require their own drivers and they are not supported in form for by the Native OS without supporting drivers, the Scanner doesn’t work, the Web Cam doesn’t work and most of all while the M’Board will work sort of it’s much better once you install the Intel Drivers for all the bits on it and there is a [b]Really Cool[/b] monitoring program that comes with the M’Board so you can monitor both the Voltages and Temps.

          It’s in an Antec Server Case with a mix of several different HDD 2 PATA, 4 SATA, and 15 SCSI. I didn’t fit the RAID controller as that would have been another CD required to install the proper RAID Configuration.

          Could Dell make that for me? Well actually yes they could but not with my preferred Case and certainly not with all the HDD’s that I have and they wanted more that what I actually spent on this unit to build it for my out of inferior parts with a smaller Case fewer HDD’s and smaller SCSI’s as well.

          For $300.00 AU under Dell’s quote I got this unit just as I wanted it and there are certainly more than just 12 CD’s involved without the MS OS or any Software other than DVD Burning & Playing Software. If you include the Windows CD and Office CD there are another 2 to add to the count.

          Now all of the Plug In cards have the Plug & Play Logo on them but not one of them will actually Plug & Play the only one that sort of works is the Video Card all the rest have these little Yellow Circles beside them in the System Manager and need their install CD’s to actually work otherwise they are all just a waste of money if you where to rely on MS to provide the necessary support.

          I’m also not including the Monitor or Case CD’s in the list or some of the others for devices that sort of work but work properly when the correct drivers are installed.

          Now that you have the Facts [b]Who’s Full of It?[/b]

          The Aver Card had to be used because the Life View one wouldn’t allow the system to boot and even that if used doesn’t load the necessary 7 drivers from the Windows CD and then you need to think about the actual program which is another load & reboot.

          Col

          [i]Edited[/i] for Rick. At the last MS Partners Meeting MS specifically states that they have 7 versions of XP currently on sale and these are available in both OEM and Retail forms. In Volume License Forms that only have XP Pro but for the others there are currently [b]7 versions of XP Available[/b] and while you may only think of Home & Pro there are others that you just haven’t considered as XP available like Media Centre & CE just off the top of my head so that’s 4 without even trying to look up all the currently available Windows XP derivatives Versions available. You should really [b]Keep Up To Date With MS Products. [/b] :^0

          I also forgot to add to the list of components the Digital Video Capture Card another Aver product. but that just makes thing even worse from a setup point of view. :p

        • #3160785

          rickk, HAL

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          “I’ve never seen a retail system sold with a 12 CD set … ”

          rickk, HAL was not discussing a retail system, he’s talking about a “white box”.

          HAL, I’ve never build a machine from scratch although I don’t doubt I could do it if I tried. Like using Linux, it’s just something I’ve never had a reason to do. But, c’mon, get real. Someone capable of doing all the research to select the best parts going into a system, making sure they’re compatible, etc. isn’t going to have any trouble distinguishing between OEM or retail versions of Windows, or between Linux distros.

          Yes, we do buy Dell here, recently switching to them from HP / Compaq. We don’t have the time to build systems and prefer to have one point of contact when a hardware component fails. I wipe the drives and install XP from a CD provided under our enterprise license. I pull the latest drivers off the web before installing our basic apps and creating a Ghost image.

          My point was that I personally am confused by the huge number of Linux distributions. Your point appears to be that Windows is at least as confusing and that you don’t like Dell. Don’t look to me to defend Windows or Dell, but your post does nothing to clear my distro confusion.

        • #3160775

          Hal…

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          I was quoting you.

          You mislead just as much as others on here.

          How many people have a system like yours? You can’t compare Windows on a custom built system and then generalize that to the rest of the world.

          I have recently purchased 26 new PC’s from HP and all of them came with 2 CDs.

          And, just how many CD’s or downloads does it take to get that sucker up and running with Linux?

          You describe issues with that equipment under Windows, just curious…issues with Linux?

        • #3160743
          Avatar photo

          Palmetto for that system

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          I didn’t have any trouble choosing the parts except for one of the Video Capture Cards the Free to Air one which was a bit of a nuisance and I also have 25 CD sets some have 4 CD’s in them for Windows Programs to install on it after it’s actually loaded. So it isn’t a [b]Short Install Time[/b] and not something that can be expected to be Ghosted for the Initial Install though one of the removable SATA drives, is now a Clone of the Boot Drive of Windows but only the 32 bit version as I’m not bothered with the 64 Bit one as it’s just a development platform.

          As I’m running several different OS’s on the same system Win XP Pro, Win XP Pro 64 [that ones a nightmare as there just are not the drivers available for it] Debian and SUSE.

          I’ll leave a few drive partitions clear to install Test OS on when I get around to needing to test something though but they will be the Cheap PATA ones that are partitioned to 50 GIG from the 200 GIG that they are.

          But this is the main difference between the US and AU in the US I’m told at the MS Meetings almost every computer is sold by the Big Makers and here in AU most are sold by the small system builders who have the advantage of fast delivery times with the newest hardware available. I actually wanted a Quad Processor M’Board but there is no Windows Desktop product that will work correctly on it so I just settled for the Dual Xeon’s and I’ll put up with the slower performance when I’m running in XP.

          The point was however that there are currently 7 versions of XP or its derivatives available from MS so there is a fair choice there as well even if only two are actually thought of being used [b]In Bulk.[/b]

          s for what you might like to consider as a suitable Distro from a Nix supplier that really depends on what it is you need as they don’t aim their product in an attempt to have [b]One Size Fits All[/b] which is the MS way of doing business.

          If you just want a desktop that’s easy to install Corel’s Linux will suit you perfectly, it’s so good that MS killed it off and though now dated is still brilliant for a new user, if you want a server OS then something like SUSE which ever is the Latest now or Red Hat again the latest and both are cheaper than Windows 2003 ES and have greater capacity less overhead and better scalability. Both have direct support from IBM who claim that they can have fixes available within 48 working hours for any of these products installed on one of their Servers. IBM has their own teams working on both Distro’s as well as direct contact with the makers.

          MS on the other hand doesn’t allow IBM access to the Source Code so if you use any MS product on an IBM Server you’ll be stuck waiting for MS to come up with a fix as IBM is not in a position to help you out. That’s probably why IBM claims that their Server Sales are 60% Nix and 40% MS and when you start loooking at even the small Blades like the 500 CPU ones I can not think of many people who can afford the MS Licensing for one of these as the cost would come very close to the Hardware cost and IBM isn’t noted for being cheap. Then if you start looking at one of the really big Blades with several K’s CPU’s that is a thing that just isn’t worth thinking about with MS Licensing.

          Col

        • #3160368
          Avatar photo

          Rick

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          Currently I’m still installing the apps for XP Pro 32 and I haven’t even thought about the 64 Bit version as there are not enough drivers for it to work properly, but on that system Debian installed without a problem from the 15 install CD and while I did install just about everything except Server or Domain items from Debian I think that I only needed something like 8 of the CD’s and then drivers for the Sound card and Video Capture Cards. Less than 4 hours to have it up and running perfectly with Debian and I’m still installing XP Pro although the initial Install and loading the necessary drivers and software that came with the hardware took about 4 hours as well.

          The difference is that with the Debian Install I have all the necessary programs that I want and I’m still installing and rebooting the XP Pro one which dictated the hardware that I could use as XP will not support a Quad Processor M’Board let alone one with HTT on each CPU. Even now it’s only running each CPU as one without HTT so it’s actually slower than the Nix install.

          After I finish the XP install I’ll throw the latest SUSE that I got from Novell at it and see what happens. But the one that I’m not looking forward to is the 64 Bit XP version that MS gave me. I can see a lot of problems cropping up there even if the CPU’s do have the 64 Bit Extensions in them. There just isn’t mush software available and even fewer drivers so I can see most of the 32 Bit drivers being used for the time being at least and if the 64 Bit ones ever become available I’ll install them then.

          Col

        • #3160209

          Apotheon. I am familiar with the ‘standard’.

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          But I haven’t seen consistent application of the standard. Sure all (well, most anyway) of the debian derivatives use the same strategy, and all/most of the redhat derivatives are fairly similar. (I am guesing you are a Debian guy, as you seem fairly caustic in your views of the ‘rpm crowd’. Well, so long as you stick with the officially approved packages anyhow.

        • #3160196

          Choice:Pick an install

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Funny, cute, and wrong

          Okay, here’s my choice:
          I want Fedora’s slick install front-end
          Debian’s more consistent install back-end
          Knoppix’s reliable plug-n-playfulness
          and OpendBSD’s security mindedness
          With Microsoft’s organized and more mature, GUI admin tools/control panel(I wanted to select this from a distro as well, but I couldn’t think of a single one).

        • #3152309

          I fail to see what’s so difficult

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to It’s a pain in the butt

          about opening up a package manager, typing in the name of what you want to install, checking the box next to it, and clicking OK.

          Or, if it’s something you downloaded in source form, unzipping it and typing
          ./configure
          make
          [and possibly, as root] make install

          Or, if it’s an RPM, right-clicking on it and selecting “Install with Foo”, with Foo being the name of your distro’s package manager.

          Come back when you’ve actually used a distro that’s come out in the last two or three years. The 2.6 kernel and improvements in ALSA solved a large percentage of sound problems quite a while ago. Thursday is the release date for openSuSE 10.1. May I suggest you play around with it over the weekend? I know for a fact that SuSE 10.0 handles sound cards (and all my other hardware, including my Treo 650, for that matter) effortlessly.

        • #3154678

          Hopefully some insight

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to I fail to see what’s so difficult

          I’m going to assume ds4211 is speaking from a Windows background. If not, I’m sure he’ll correct me.

          Some of these tasks look difficult simply because they aren’t done the same way as in Windows. Windows users expect to perform a task by applying their existing skills may experience frustration.

          “…what’s so difficult about opening up a package manager, …
          Or, if it’s something you downloaded in source form, …
          Or, if it’s an RPM, …”

          You specified three different ways to install a program, including at least one that requires the command line. Can you see how this would seem difficult to someone used to inserting the CD and having the installation process start by itself? (I sincerely hope I’m not incorrectly interpreting ds4211’s skill level. If I am, I apologise.)

          Even if everything in your last paragraph is true, you haven’t provided a reason to spend time learning an alternative to an already operational system. Why play with SuSE 10.1? His Windows setup already works.

        • #3154546

          Linux != Windows

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Hopefully some insight

          You’re absolutely right: people who are just in a rut in terms of rote memorization of computing habits think anything outside that rut is “difficult”. As a result, many people find some of the easiest computing tasks “difficult” due to unfamiliarity with them. Of course, there’s the famous “Linux != Windows” essay to help people grasp that their difficulty is unfamiliarity, not actual comparative difficulty of the system.

          http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

          Even that is getting a bit dated these days, as Linux developers are going out of their way to ease transitions for Linux newbies from the Windows way of doing things.

          Of course, I’ve learned how to do pretty much everything in both Windows and Linux, and in my experience it’s a lot easier to get almost anything done with Linux than with Windows. I’m not typical, though: I am not wedded to a particular set of habits. I’m judging not by level of familiarity, but by ease of use when equally familiar with each option.

        • #3152695

          Different mentality

          by jbush ·

          In reply to Hopefully some insight

          First off, I believe you can create auto running CDs for Linux (I could be wrong on that as it’s not the sort of thing I really pay much attention to)

          Secondly, the key reason for such a different approach to installation is that without having to pay for licensing (most linux compatible software is freely available), and with a readily available internet connection (which I agree, not everybody has), there’s not that much need for CDs.

          If you look at models like Direct2Drive (an online service where you can legally purchase licenses to download and run software), you’ll see that they work by similar principles.

          Liken the (GUI based) package manager to the Add/Remove Programs applet in the Windows Control Panel. Imagine that it can also search for and download software for you, including any other pieces of software that the one you’re after might require.

          I see that as being simpler and more powerful than having to man-handle a stack of discs. That said, it was quite an alien concept when I first started using linux.

        • #3154482

          It does?

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to I fail to see what’s so difficult

          Your Palm Treo works with SuSE 10.x? I’d like to hear about that. It makes me want to go out and buy one. (ooooh, that’s not good :0 )

        • #3161238

          Sure.

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to It does?

          Just use Kpilot. There’s a different package–I believe it’s multisync but I can’t be sure right now as I’m at work and stuck using a legacy OS–that will work if you’re not a KDE user. Even if you use Gnome, Kpilot may work if you have the right libs installed.

          Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to figure out how to get it to transfer my pictures, as the media conduit seems to be different from everything else, but it does everything else (like app installs, etc.).

          —Update—
          Now that I’m sitting in front a non-brain-dead machine, I find that Gnome users would use a package called, duh, gnome-pilot.

          I hate how OSS developers use such nonsensical names. Why can’t they use normal names like “ctpazxx.ini” or “csrss.exe”? [I didn’t make these up; they’re two files in %SYSTEMROOT%\System32 ]

        • #3153638

          nighthawk you went wrong awefully

          by hopefulcoder ·

          In reply to I fail to see what’s so difficult

          Nighthawk according to google and all anit-MS guys, changing the search option in IE7 which is nothing but a drag and drop software is too difficult for most of the computer users. I am sure you are aware of that. I dont understand how such people can type all these commands. And words it might have some dependency and most people get lost there. RPM does not install all the software as most of them still come as source files. And I am sure that if the proposed European patent law gets passes then seeing movies in linux will be officially illegal. The sound problem is just not solved. I use fedora and i have some stupid problems occasionally. To use linux you unfortunately need to be a little (a lot )more efficient with some terminal commands. And most home users just dont want or are not capable of doing it. Yes now dont ask me to use SUSE for only fedora is available in the university. And I am not novice either. I have been using it every since redhat6. And linux has not changed much. Some GUI enhancements are done but they are not stable. Support for games, music and movies is awfully low. Windows will continue to rule the home pc market for many years to come.

        • #3152738

          I don’t know where to start

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to nighthawk you went wrong awefully

          1) Ok, why are you still using rpms? Why not yum (or god forbid, up2date?)

          2) What “stupid problems?”

          3) Gaming is Linux is possible with Cedega
          http://www.transgaming.org
          http://www.transgaming.com
          http://www.transgaming.org/gamesdb
          http://cedegawiki.sweetleafstudios.com/wiki/Main_Page

        • #3152709
          Avatar photo

          Now jmgarvin I really must tke exception to your answer

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to nighthawk you went wrong awefully

          You said Gaming on Linux is possible and refered to a well known site that produces a great Windows Emulator which in itself is fine.

          But you should have said [b]Windows Gaming[/b] is possible on Linux as there are quite a lot of Native Nix games available it’s just that a lot of people say [i]”I would switch to Linux in a Heartbeat but I need Windows for XYZ Game”[/i] :^0

          Col ]:)

        • #3151874

          Ha! I’m getting lazy ;-)

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to nighthawk you went wrong awefully

          I’ve explained it so many times, I think I’ve started to get lazy 😉

          Neverwinter Nights runs natively in Linux as well as a HUGE amount of FLOSS games and non-FLOSS games (RtCW: ET comes to mind as well).

        • #3159039

          What are you talking about?

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to nighthawk you went wrong awefully

          “And I am sure that if the proposed European patent law gets passes then seeing movies in linux will be officially illegal.”
          That is one of the most ka-ka based statement I’ve heard in a long time. Europe is the most Linux friedly place in the Universe. You don’t realize just how many ‘Holywood’ movies and American TV shoes are Produced over here, and with Linux!

        • #3161231

          Sheesh.

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to nighthawk you went wrong awefully

          In the US, watching movies with Linux is already illegal. I’m a criminal because I use DeCSS to watch movies I legally own. And the MPAA wonders why I only have six movies in my collection, yet none on my HDD.

          How is the greed and shortsightedness of movie studio executives and bought-off legislators Linux’s fault?

          I work at a help desk. I know all about the level of competence of the average user. And yet I still have a higher estimation of their abilities than you do. Not everyone is stupid, and even stupid people use Linux.

          I’m not anti-MS, I’m pro-computer. M$ is bad for the computing world.

          You don’t know how to check dependencies? Fedora doesn’t have a tool to do that for you? I don’t know much about Red Hat because I dropped them like a hot potato after the way they handled splitting up Fedora and RHEL. In fact, the only RPM-based distro I know well is SuSE, and YaST is unbelieveably helpful (usually). I’ve also used many Debian-based distros, and they are justly legendary for their package managers.

          And you do understand that a source RPM is something that you compile into a program, yet a typical RPM is something that has already been compiled and is ready to install, right? Sure, there are source RPM’s too–they’re intended for convenient access to the source and/or for advanced users to build for themselves. Just because they exist doesn’t mean you have you have to use them, and it certainly isn’t the case that they’re the way most programs come. Fedora isn’t Gentoo or LFS, and it’s not supposed to be.

          As for this quote: “I use fedora and i have some stupid problems occasionally”. Isn’t that a bit like saying “I drive a Yugo and I have problems getting it up to 120 MPH”? But seriously, how is that different from this quote: “I use Windows XP and I have some stupid problems occasionally.” Are stupid problems somehow limited to the Linux world? I’d much rather have a stupid problem that crashes Konqueror than a stupid problem that turns my machine into a spambot.

          Sound problem? None of the six different sound cards or integrated audio chips I’ve used in Linux have had a problem. Sound problems are so five years ago. Viva la ALSA!

          Afraid of a shell? You can go months without ever having to drop to a command line if you don’t want to.

          As I’ve said before:
          Thanks for your post, but come back when you’ve actually used Linux. If, as you claim, you aren’t a novice Linux user, you’d know better. You haven’t spewed out any tired old FUD we haven’t all heard 42 times before.

        • #3153450

          I use linux because

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to It’s a pain in the butt

          it removes my dependency of Microsoft
          it installed with thre clicks of the mouse
          it’s a piece of cake to install what I installed
          updates are easy stuff
          all the apps I need are available.

          I am not even a techie anymore. I was years ago, but now my job is tailoring IT systems to fit organisations, and finding IT systems that will fit a specific organisation, and we don’t even talk product names untill the map is drawn.

          Any office package is like the other, and users don’t need to know what OS is under the hood of the device they use.

    • #3152530

      Hmmm….

      by tony k ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      ….I don’t want to have to work that hard anymore.

    • #3152514

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by onbliss ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      …I never needed it.

      • #3152492

        I’m bill gates

        by neil higgins ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because…

        and I spend all my time fixing Windows.

        • #3152335

          I don’t spend time fixing Windows…

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to I’m bill gates

          …but [b]using[/b]Windows.

      • #3152436

        I don’t need linux.

        by willjamr ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because…

        “…I never needed it. ”

        You don’t need a BMW or Mercedes Benz
        if you have a Yugo or Trabant.

        • #3152336

          Exactly

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to I don’t need linux.

          I will buy a BMW or Benz when I am [b]in need[/b], or when I can afford it.

        • #3154668

          You can’t get much cheaper

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to Exactly

          than free.

        • #3154646

          BMW for free

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to You can’t get much cheaper

          🙂 that is good. But if I am in Venice, probably I would not get it even if it is given for free. When I visit Rome, maybe then I would [b]need[/b] it 🙂

    • #3152473
      Avatar photo

      I don’t use linux becuase

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Jay told me it was to hard to install and get working. :p

      I’m also terrified of Penguins. 😀

      http://tinyurl.com/nyeem

      Col ]:)

      OH do URL’s count in the ten words?
      http://tinyurl.com/fz854

    • #3152438

      Feel the love.

      by beilstwh ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t know if they still do it, but at one time all of the machines that duplicated the CD’s for software distributions at Microsoft were running Linux. Windows was just to slow and buggy.

      I have used windows and I have used linux and the only reason that I use windows is because the application that I need to run does not run on Linux.

      • #3152347

        Don’t let that stop you…

        by alangeek ·

        In reply to Feel the love.

        I haven’t managed to find my way through Wine yet, but VMware ought to let you run your Windows app just fine and let you use Linux for everything else.

      • #3153432

        MS belief in own products

        by pkr9 ·

        In reply to Feel the love.

        At a time all their administrative system was IBM AS/400 – the system still to beat when it comes to reliability and security.

    • #3152418

      … the 10,500 other users at this company …

      by too old for it ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      … aren’t ready to switch overnight yet.

      13 … WHoopsie

      • #3153430

        Too old for IT ?

        by pkr9 ·

        In reply to … the 10,500 other users at this company …

        My mother is 77, and she uses IT. She uses SuSe9….

        • #3152906

          My mum loves her old MAC

          by foothillscg.com ·

          In reply to Too old for IT ?

          She is 79 years old and uses MAC OS 7.9. She’s even upgraded the memory by herself. She’s a retired minister.

        • #3154043

          lucky you

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Too old for IT ?

          I switched my mother to Thunderbird (still on windows) She didn’t speak to me for a week.

        • #3160965
          Avatar photo

          Two questions here

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to lucky you

          Why did you need to change the Mail Client?

          Would your mother have acted this way if you had of used Thunderbird initially as the default Mail Client?

          It’s not the fact that the new Mail Client is bad it’s [b]change[/b] that your mother doesn’t like along with the majority of end users. :p

          Col

        • #3160218

          EOL

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Two questions here

          Because her previous Email client app was a lashup of An older version of Netscape communicator and Corel Address Book, which was made for Widnows 3.1, but we had managed to keep it limping (until recently) in Win9x. It wasn’t going to handle the move to XP, so we grabbed something new for her. Thunderbird seemed a good choice, free, Fairly friendly GUI…

          Yes, the issue at hand was Change aversion, no doubt about that.

          Of course some people proably read the part about my mom not talking to me, and thought I was lucky.

        • #3160094
          Avatar photo

          That’s part of the reason that my Mom’s

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to EOL

          Latest computer went there loaded with Nightmare 8 as well. :^0

          While there is something to be said for your mother not talking to you for any period of time when this ends you’ll find that you have a much bigger problem that if you had of been able to talk her through it along the way. My mother always seems to ring up and demand why it’s no longer working? After I do something that she doesn’t like and she still insists that [b]It’s Stupid[/b] to click on the Start Button to shut down the computer.

          She insists that she has to use Windows and has all the trouble in the world with it and when I leave my NB loaded with Debian she never has a problem with it and I constantly find her playing Solitaire on it while she will not open the Windows Box unless it’s absolutely necessary.

          Col

        • #3160390

          ?:| when you think about that…

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to That’s part of the reason that my Mom’s

          “and she still insists that It’s Stupid to click on the Start Button to shut down the computer.”
          You have to admit that your Mom has a good point there. And a sense of humour too. (got me to laughing anyway) -d

        • #3158859
          Avatar photo

          I can’t fault her logic but

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to That’s part of the reason that my Mom’s

          I just wish I wasn’t the one who had to show her how to use a Computer.

          What gets me though is that she insists that she has to have Windows and then insists that when the computer gets changed she doesn’t want massive changes made [Read that as a Different Version of Windows]so I’m stuck with 98SE on it and even then she complained bitterly when I changed it from 98 to 98SE and I really can not see any differences but she insists that there are and I’m just changing it for the sake of changing it.

          But she had me totally stuffed when she hit me with the Why do you click on the start button to stop it? I really didn’t have an answer for that one other than [b]It Just the Way That it Works[/b] and while she can accept that with here Video Player and DVD Player both have the same button to turn off and on none of them reads [b]Start[/b] when she doesn’t have her glasses on. The TV is OK though as it says [b]Power[/b] so she can understand why it turns on and off but with Windows she is most insistent that it’s crazy to need to click on the start button to close it down. And it’s really hard to disagree with her on that one.

          Col

    • #3152417

      Thirsty?

      by daniel.muzrall ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t use linux because…

      For fun:
      “I drank the magic Microsoft Kool-aid and I really like the jumpsuits.”

      For real:
      “My office and customers/clients are all wintel based.”

      and Oh wait…I do use Linux!

    • #3152321

      Speaking on behalf of Steve Ballmer’s kids

      by georgeou ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      “I don’t use Linux because Dad will disown me” 🙂

      Actually Steve does tell his kids not to use Google or iPods, so I’m just improvising here 🙂

      • #3154566

        Steve Balmers Kids

        by mjwx ·

        In reply to Speaking on behalf of Steve Ballmer’s kids

        Dont use linux under the threat of a chair.

        • #3153632

          hmm

          by hopefulcoder ·

          In reply to Steve Balmers Kids

          and linus would be teaching his kids how to include patented software into linux and yet escape any possible lawsuits..just because they are against MS

        • #3146254

          Before you know it,

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to hmm

          Linux will be bundling in their own browser (whose default start page is Linus Torvalds’s personal website) and intertwine it so thoroughly with the rest of the system that it’s impossible to uninstall. They’ll also bundle in a media player, messaging client, and a gazillion other Linux-branded applications that are cheap knock-offs of whatever app is dominating that particular niche at that particular time. And, if you want to sell a computer without Linux preinstalled, Linus Torvalds will personally double the price (fortunately $0 x 2 = $0) or forbid you from installing it on any of the machines you sell. This is, of course, AFTER he has thrown a chair at you.

          Clues here! Get your fresh hot clues here! Can I offer you one, sir?

        • #3146230

          Be careful with your sarcasm.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Before you know it,

          That one might just be ignorant enough to believe you meant that literally.

        • #3146199

          You have a good point.

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to Be careful with your sarcasm.

          And we may also have people out there who don’t realize that I didn’t make any of that up, I just changed the names to protect the guilty (and for comedic effect).

          Maybe I should start putting disclaimers on posts like that one. Here’s a first draft:

          WARNING: The Surgeon General has declared this post unsafe for the humor-deficient and/or extremely gullible. Read at your own risk. The author disclaims all liability for aneurism, apoplexy, extreme bewilderment, or you looking like a fool after you took it seriously and responded with a semi-illiterate flame to said author. By reading the above post you have agreed to these terms. Have a good day.

    • #3152319

      Because…

      by the_fixer ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      fixing Windows keeps me in a job!

      If everyone used Linux I’d have more time to fish!

    • #3152312

      I’m not paranoid

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      It seems everyone uses Linux for a similar reason, mainly because it’s NOT Microsoft (and why would a loner with no social skills follow the pack, they need to be estranged to feel secure)?

      I don’t use it, anymore, for many reasons. I dn’t have anything on my computer that you are not 100% welcome to view, steal etc. This isn’t MY computer anyway.

      MY computers have Win2KPro, I ditched my MAC and Linux boxes when I moved back to Vancouver, I couldn’t care less if they are unstable, I just don’t transmit anything that I wouldnt share anyway.

      My boxes run well, are patched as much as possible, have Python guarding the front door and that’s about it.

      Bottom line, I am not paranoid that someone woul dwant MY info for anything, have it, if it is useful in anyway all the power to you.

      I think most people that are so paranoid about their personal info are actually just flatterng themselves. Why the hell would I waste time hacking some JOE BLOW computer when there are corporate networks and REAL money scams to target. Dont flatter yourselves, nobody wants at your crap.

      • #3154671

        No paranoia with dial-up

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to I’m not paranoid

        Nobody seriously hacks a dial-up box. Why bother when the IP address changes every time I reconnect, and I disconnect when I’m not actively using it? Paranoia is for unprotected broadband users.

        • #3154603

          AHA

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to No paranoia with dial-up

          but dial up is for remotely situated folk who haven’t seen a city in a decade. poke poke touche! LOL 😉

        • #3154571

          Have at thee, base scoundrel!

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to AHA

          You forget, dial up is also for cheapskates.

        • #3154540

          you really must

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Have at thee, base scoundrel!

          be a tightwad if the minor cost of 24 a month is to much for broadband.

          or is that tightassed tightwad? 😉

        • #3154471

          $24 a month? Maybe in Canada

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to you really must

          I can’t get it here for under $45, and that’s just an introductory price for three months. I’m paying $16 for dial-up. I’m on the box at the house less than 10 hours a week. Why bother?

          Also, there’s a phone jack beside my computer. There is no cable connection on that side of the room. I refuse to look a piece of coax snaking around the corners of the room; I’m not going to let the Bubba from Time-Warner knock a hole in the floor; and if I’m too cheap to pay $45 a month, you can also assume I’m too cheap to pony up $150 for a wireless card and access point.

        • #3154466

          DSL

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to $24 a month? Maybe in Canada

          How much is DSL in your area (if it’s available)? That uses POTS RJ-11, too.

        • #3154454

          yup..

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to $24 a month? Maybe in Canada

          24 a month for lightspeed from the cable company.
          4 gigs of data transfer and only bout 1 mbit/s speed.
          for 40 a month it’s 50 gigs of data transfer and 5 mb/s for speed.

          dialup starts at about 10 a month.

        • #3154450

          DSL comparable to cable prices

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to $24 a month? Maybe in Canada

          It runs about $40. J.Ja. will tell you the property taxes in central SC took huge jump this year (over $200 on my house) and the difference between $16 and $40 looms large, especially for a luxury.

          Up early in the Mountain Time Zone morning, are we?

        • #3154414

          Mountain time zone?

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to $24 a month? Maybe in Canada

          naw, I’m on pacific time zone.

          the same as california. :p

          and nope, I’m always up most of the night, I sleep in the mornings, like any same human being would do.

        • #3154412

          J, MDT remark was for apo.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to $24 a month? Maybe in Canada

          I didn’t realize you had snuck in between his post and mine. Had I, I surely would have cracked on you instead.

          What’s the exchange rate on hours? One U.S. hour must swap for about two Canadian ones 🙂

        • #3154404

          time echange rate

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to $24 a month? Maybe in Canada

          24 us hours for one canadian hour..since people in canada are more efficient. :p

        • #3154369

          ouch

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to $24 a month? Maybe in Canada

          Last I checked, I think DSL rates were under $30 per month here. Paying $40 for DSL has to be painful.

          I’m using cable Internet service for $45/mo., but part of the reason I’m using that instead of DSL is simply that I don’t want to pay the extra money for landline telephone service that I’d never use except to convey my DSL carrier signal to my home. Since it’s worth having cable TV just to get the Cartoon Network and Sci Fi Channel, and $45/mo. is cheaper than about $28/mo. plus the cost of telephone service, I went with cable.

          By the way, yes, my sleep schedule is hellaciously screwed up these days.

      • #3154670

        Wrong

        by beilstwh ·

        In reply to I’m not paranoid

        Do you do banking from your computer? Do you have tax or accounting software? Do you write private messages to your wife/husband/or significant other. Do you have any documents that contain your SSN or credit cards on your computer? …..

        Most people have information on their computer that could cost them financialy or emotionally if it became common knowledge.

        Very

        • #3154599

          No YOU’RE wrong

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Wrong

          I love people who use the title WRONG, and then don’t provide anything to suport it.

          [i]Do you do banking from your computer?[/i] No, my accountant pays all bills from his Novell Linux system.

          [i]Do you have tax or accounting software?[/i] No (my accountant does that too

          [i]Do you write private messages to your wife/husband/or significant other.[/i] No, wello nothing I wouldn’t share or mind others reading, that’s just stupid. You know how many lawsuits I’ve seen lost due to people saving email?

          [i]Do you have any documents that contain your SSN or credit cards on your computer?[/i] No.

          So your witless retort now is……?

          [i]Most people have information on their computer that could cost them financialy or emotionally if it became common knowledge.[/i]
          That’s my whole point, people put too much trust in what is merely an appliance. Don’t put anything on your PC you wouldn’t freely share or are not willing to lose. PC’s crash too, hard drives die, people lose information. I always tell them, back it up, secure it or be prepared to lose it.

      • #3153425

        Hmmm

        by pkr9 ·

        In reply to I’m not paranoid

        Ever heard of zombie PC’s ? I saw one using up 5GB’s of broadband in 2 days whild the user was sleeping. He visited a P2P site ONE TIME visited a P2P site, and had his firewall disabled behind his back. They didn’t want his info, they wanted his bandwith.

      • #3144545

        yes, but is that you saying this?

        by a.lizard ·

        In reply to I’m not paranoid

        or a member of the virus communities that 0wN your boxes?

    • #3154641

      … of Linus Torvalds & a million distros

      by justin james ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      The Linux community is too dependent upon Linus Torvalds. If he got hit by a bus, I fear that the community would spend a lot of time and fork too much scambling to fill the void. The zillions of distros are another problem. The popular, well supported distro of today is the has-been of tomorrow.

      It is for these reasons that I choose BSD for my OSS UNIX needs. I feel that the community is more mature (not in the “does not pull each other’s hair” sense, but in the “less fluid, more stable” sense) and that development is more about stability and security and less about the “cool” features. My needs for a UNIX are stability and security. Any box I put UNIX on is a server, so where Linux shines (cutting edge userland apps) simply does not matter to me.

      J.Ja

    • #3154609

      I prefer BDS and/or Unix

      by sleepin’dawg ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I’ll get around to it one day, when I have no idea but I am fooling around with it.

      [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

      • #3154606

        ~blink~…~blink~

        by jaqui ·

        In reply to I prefer BDS and/or Unix

        “I am fooling around with it”

        that’s just to twisted for colour tv ]:)

    • #3154553

      all my porn is saved to NTFS Drive.

      by nz_justice ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      and Linux doesn’t write to NTFS with out destroying my HDD. and I’m to lazy to convert everything to the Linux File System (LFS) or go backwards to FAT32 but if I could afford another 260 Gig Drive then I could save my porn to LFS and just read the old files of NTFS and write new files to new LFS as long as I could format the new-drive of a live Linux distro.

      • #3154544

        LFS?

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to all my porn is saved to NTFS Drive.

        LFS doesn’t stand for “Linux file system”, it stands for Linux From Scratch. Linux filesystems are called things like ext3, XFS, and ReiserFS. Actually, they’re not even specifically Linux filesystems. Only MacOS and Windows tend to have OS-specific filesystems, for the most part. Other OSes and filesystems tend to mix and match quite well.

        You must be kidding. Your entire post is full of bizarrities.

        • #3154541

          I bet

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to LFS?

          he meant the linux native filesystem e2fs.

          though that’s going the way of the dodo, since it’s not a journalised filesystem.

        • #3154533

          Not up on my LINUX terminology but up on my laziness

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to I bet

          I just meant a file system that was Linux and not NTFS or FAT32 or MAC or BSD or whatever. I meant a Linux File System (LFS) which I was hoping would cover any file system that Linux has.

        • #3154524

          LFS is a distro

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Not up on my LINUX terminology but up on my laziness

          .

        • #3154476

          And a three letter acronym

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to LFS is a distro

          that can mean any thing you want.

        • #3154534

          LFS

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to LFS?

          I couldn’t remember the names of the Linux file system but it is Linux and it is a file system so I called it a Linux File System and acrynised it so I would not have to keep typing in Linux File System. I couldn’t remember the names ext3, XFS and ReiserFS so I called it LFS. I can read NTFS of a live Linux CD but I cant write to it which sucks monkey nuts.

        • #3154486

          write support for NTFS

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to LFS

          NTFS write support from Linux is getting pretty good. I wouldn’t trust it enough to just use NTFS as a filesystem under Linux as a day-to-day thing, but it can be useful for things like resizing the partition or fixing some kind of catastrophic configuration issue on a Windows system by use of a Linux LiveCD.

        • #3154306

          Which Linux LiveCD Distro

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to write support for NTFS

          already has NTFS write support? Or is it make your own?

        • #3154251

          Knoppix works.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Which Linux LiveCD Distro

          Like I said, NTFS write support exists. It’s just reportedly a little sketchy. In other words, I wouldn’t recommend using it unless you have to — chances are good you won’t have any problems, but I prefer to avoid taking unnecessary risks with my data.

          It also doesn’t help that every time there’s a new Windows release, the filesystem is different.

        • #3146175

          Why do you care about writing to that HDD anyway?

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to Which Linux LiveCD Distro

          Do you edit your pr0n or something? Do you make your own? Why would you even need to write to it in the first place if it’s already there? I don’t know about you, but I can’t remember the last time I needed to write to my pr0n directory. That’s why I gave it (and the rest of my files that I almost never access but don’t want to delete) its own partition and called it /static .

        • #3156778

          No. No editing or creating

          by nz_justice ·

          In reply to Why do you care about writing to that HDD anyway?

          Writing to the disk is for the procurement of more.

    • #3154472

      I don’t use Linux because

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      the first time I installed it, it could not find audio and modem drivers for that particular computer.

      Now I can’t be bothered, because I am so used to Windows.

      Additionally I have HUGE library of Windows software (I am a software junkie) which presumably wouldn’t run on Linux.

      • #3154470

        Pre-emptive strike

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because

        I’m sure someone will point out that most of your Windows software will run under Linux using some form of Windows emulation software. That person won’t realize that being able to run Windows software under Linux isn’t a reason to switch.

        • #3154465

          Err, not quite.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Pre-emptive strike

          I don’t think anyone even vaguely reasonable has ever suggested that the ability to run software designed for MS Windows under Linux is a reason to switch. The point is that the ability to run MS Windows software under Linux eliminates a reason to avoid switching OSes. When someone brings up a good dreason to use Linux instead of MS Windows, and the objection “But I have to be able to use Windows-based application Foo!” comes up, Wine usually comes up as a means of pointing out that this objection isn’t nearly as important and valid as some might think.

        • #3154378
          Avatar photo

          Not in Jules case though

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Pre-emptive strike

          A lot of his stuff goes back to the DOS days and will not even run on some forms of Windows so that one a bit of a misleading statement.

          He also has a Mac with OSX installed so I’m preety sure he knows why he’s using Windows on that machine and why he isn’t using XP as well. :p

          Col ]:)
          http://tinyurl.com/fz854

        • #3153630

          runing OSS in windows

          by hopefulcoder ·

          In reply to Pre-emptive strike

          and the same guys will never accept the figure that almost all the applications that run in *nix can be run in windows as well !!!

        • #3146929

          That’s the point of OSS.

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to runing OSS in windows

          You can use it when you want, where you want, how you want, whenever you want, and you can change it however you want. Congratulations on managing to make my point for me, even though you seem to have missed it completely.

          Here are the first twelve lines of the Linux kernel’s (now there’s a redundancy) source code for handling big boo-boos:
          /*
          * linux/kernel/panic.c
          *
          * Copyright (C) 1991, 1992 Linus Torvalds
          */

          /*
          * This function is used through-out the kernel (including mm and fs)
          * to indicate a major problem.
          */
          #include #include

          Now, go and show me the first few lines of code that control Windows’s BSOD. Go ahead; I’ll be waiting right here.

          What’s that, you say? You can’t? Why not? Are there things you can’t modify in Windows that you can in Linux? Could that perhaps be because Windows isn’t OSS? And obtaining the source code for Windows is–I’m not kidding–a felony unless you happen to be one of their “Valued Partners”.

          Would you like to add a fixed FIFO scheduling class to Windows? Sorry. You can’t. It’s not OSS.

          I can do a better job managing IRQ’s than Linus Torvalds.* So, let’s see:
          Opening up /usr/src/linux-2.6.16.13-4/kernel/irq/manage.c …
          Fiddling around a bit with the code…
          Compiling…
          Oh, look at that: a spiffy new IRQ handler.

          Now that I’ve done that once, I’m feeling ambitious and I think I’ll do the same thing in Windows. Oops, almost forgot–Windows isn’t OSS, so I’m stuck with what they gave me.

          OSS isn’t just free as in beer, it’s just as importantly free as in speech.

          *I can’t. This is just a hypothetical situation.

          Post edited to correct glaring typo.

        • #3146837

          You Are Correct

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to That’s the point of OSS.

          Up to and including:

          “*I can’t. This is just a hypothetical situation.”

          Give a real world one…preferably one that the average user cares about.

          You are still missing the point. I appreciate that you like to look at source code. Most users don’t.

          For those that don’t, Windows is a viable choice. For those that do, Linux is the viable choice. It’s that simple.

          I don’t spend time looking at OS code, therefore, from that one point of view, that one Linux strength means nothing to me.

        • #3146394

          You’ve proven another point for “us”.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to You Are Correct

          The average user doesn’t have to be aware of the direct benefits of using open source software to benefit from the indirect effects.

        • #3146320

          Oh Man!

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to You’ve proven another point for “us”.

          I actually sort of agree with you for once.

          But it applies not just to open source.

          You could broaden that statement and it would still be true.

          I hate it when I actually agree with you 🙂

        • #3146404

          SCO IRQ handling was MS like

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to That’s the point of OSS.

          When you changed the IRQs you had to reboot. If five cards wanted IRQ 3,5,7,and 11, you were SOL.

          Plug and Play for Linux seems to handle better than MS from my experience. I usually make big systems, with multiple FC cards 2 Gig-E cards, and usually a kvm switch connection. RHEL Linux is far easier than 2k3 Enterprise Server…

    • #3154461

      “. . . I’m testing website compatibility in Internet Explorer.”

      by apotheon ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      As soon as I’m done making sure it works properly with IE, though, I’ll go back to using Linux. This Windows stuff is too hard.

      • #3147009

        Here’s a rule of thumb:

        by nighthawk808 ·

        In reply to “. . . I’m testing website compatibility in Internet Explorer.”

        If you’re trying to find out what your page will look like in IE, test it in a standards-compliant browser, then stochastically cut and paste half-a-dozen snippets of your HTML into different locations. If you’re using tables, don’t forget to turn your monitor onto its side. And if you’re coding specifically for IE users, cater to your audience’s level by putting all your text in white and using a bright yellow (I recommend anythinig in the FF FF ** range) solid background. Those of us with 20/10 vision enjoy an occasional challenge. Alternatively, use an asymmetrical image approximately 50 pixels wide so it will tile at least 20 times at 1280×1024. Ensure that the predominant color of that image matches the color of your text.

        Don’t forget to change the text color of text, hyperlinks, and visited hyperlinks to all the same color. I love cluelessly guessing as to what is a link and what isn’t.

        Here’s an extra special bonus tip for those of you who use FrontPage: make sure the target on your “Back” button is “javascript:history.go(-1)” so if I found your site through a search engine, I’ll go right back to it instead of to your home page.

        But wait, there’s more: while you’re misapplying JavaScript, have it disable my right-click context menu too. I didn’t want to open that link in a new tab anyway. Besides, if I don’t go to Edit/Preferences/Content and uncheck the “Enable JavaScript” box every once in a while, I’ll forget where it’s at.

        Post editied because I left one of my biggest pet peeves out.

    • #3154448

      10 word answer

      by bfilmfan ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Active Directory is hard to understand; thus, pays much better.

      • #3154435

        hmm

        by allthegoodnamesweregone ·

        In reply to 10 word answer

        since when is AD hard to understand? 😛

        • #3154429

          What’s the Linux equivalent?

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to hmm

          What’s the Linux equivalent to Active Directory?

        • #3154416

          well, naturally

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to What’s the Linux equivalent?

          it’s nfs shares. :p

          built right into the core of the os, if you turn the service on you have full netork shares..but the actual shares are controlled by user by default.

          ldap is a server based option rather than os based means to do the same thing.

        • #3154363

          NFS + LDAP + Kerberos + DNS

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to well, naturally

          Actually, if you use SMBFS instead of NFS, you’re using exactly the same technologies on which AD is built. Thus, if you use SMBFS + LDAP + Kerberos + DNS, you essentially [b]are using AD[/b], just without the intentionally compatibility-breaking “extensions” added to the system.

          There are, in fact, other technologies usable on Linux that aren’t strictly equivalent to AD because they’re more advanced, more flexible, and more capable.

        • #3154351

          sssshhh!!!!!!!!

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to NFS + LDAP + Kerberos + DNS

          don’t baffle them with the fact that everything they love about microsoft is based on technology first developed for unix and unix like operating systems. After all *x can’t be good, it’s only the source for everything Microsoft is selling. AD, SQL2005, Visual Studio, Server*, xp, office all are based on software originally developed for a *x operating system. They like using bad clones of software rather than quality original work. :p

        • #3158733

          MS innovation

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to sssshhh!!!!!!!!

          I think Bill Gates created the 4-bit FAT table. This was obsolete almost instantly.

          The rest is borrowed, bought, copied or outright stolen. Google for “Microsoft lawsuits lost”.

        • #3152250

          LDAP +Kerberos+DNS?

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to NFS + LDAP + Kerberos + DNS

          why not use yp/NIS instead? that has all the same functionality.

        • #3152118

          Because NIS sucks?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to LDAP +Kerberos+DNS?

          Hah. I would have thought that answer was obvious.

        • #3152173

          Red Hat has Linux Directory Server

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to What’s the Linux equivalent?

          This is pretty similar and does many of the same things (although I’m not a huge fan)

        • #3152116

          Nor am I.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Red Hat has Linux Directory Server

          I’m not a big fan of LSD*, either, but then I’m not a big fan of AD — so I suppose it shouldn’t be a surprise that I don’t like LSD.

          *: Yes, I know, it’s LDS. It’s a joke. Get it?

        • #3146099

          Sort of an homage?

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Nor am I.

          to Kirk’s description of Spock’s white robe condition in the “Save the Whales” Star Trek movie? ;\

          ———–
          Warning: innocuous geeky reference enclosed.

        • #3147735

          Maybe.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Sort of an homage?

          Maybe just a little.

          Ssshhh, don’t tell anyone.

        • #3154359

          Since it was “invented”?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to hmm

          Let’s put it this way:
          If AD isn’t difficult to understand, I’d like you to explain, in your own words, how the technologies actually work — and without putting it in terms of equivalent tools. Tell me what it’s doing behind that pretty GUI that obscures the underlying technology.

        • #3154040

          Answer…

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Since it was “invented”?

          That you will get from the majority…
          Who cares? It works! 😉

        • #3161066

          sorta

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Answer…

          Sure, it “works”, if your definition of “works” is “I can plug it in, and it will limp along at half-functionality for a while, until it suffers a catastrophic failure from which I can’t recover it because I don’t understand the technology.”

          In any case, the question I was answering was “Since when is AD difficult to understand?” As such, your response to me is irrelevant.

      • #3153555

        10 More words

        by dr. tarr ·

        In reply to 10 word answer

        Microsoft operating systems provide me with such wonderful job security.

    • #3154393

      I don’t want to look like a zealot

      by smorty71 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I know this will ruffle some feathers; but, to me, the most vocal Linux advocates are just the same as Apple zealots. They love to tell you why your technology choice is wrong and why their choice is right (and that you might even be stupid for not siding with them). I’ve avoided using both Linux and Apple ’cause I don’t want to be lumped into that group.

      Time to reboot my Windows machine… again.

      • #3154374
        Avatar photo

        So instead of jumping ship and going with something different

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to I don’t want to look like a zealot

        You’ve stuck to the Zombie System from MS right? ;\

        [b]Bad News Mate[/b] they are just as bad as the Apple and Nix crowds but unfortantly they don’t generally speaking actually know what it is that they are talking about as they gather all their Data from MS which is hardly a ballanced way to find the truth is it? :p

        Don’t get me wrong it’s sort of [b]Easy Money[/b] if you can put up with knowing that you’ll be back in a few days time fixing exactly the same problem again. Now that will be $500.00 [b]Thank You[/b] very much. 😀

        Col ]:)
        http://tinyurl.com/fz854

      • #3154348

        some definitions

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to I don’t want to look like a zealot

        Linux zealot (n.): a Linux user who is not afraid to tell you why he stopped using Windows, knows what he’s talking about, and doesn’t back down just because he’s outnumbered — and gets a bad rap for it

        Windows bigot (n.): a compulsive avoider of anything that isn’t endorsed by Microsoft who appears reasonable simply because he’s in the majority

        Mac-head (n.): the real zealot

        • #3152252

          And one more

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to some definitions

          Penguinista (n): a Linux user who insists everyone will be happier if they install his or her favorite distro of the week (but without a GUI), yet responds to all questions with “RTFM, you puking n00b!”, and anyone who can’t follow MAN pages is just too stupid to have a computer.

          Edited to remove content based on apotheon’s suggestion.

        • #3152112

          well . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to And one more

          Those people do exist, just as rickk, Rob Enderle, Steve Ballmer, and George Ou exist. I don’t think Penguinista is really the right term to use to combine all those different characteristics in one person. You’ve lumped intellectual freedom advocates in with obnoxious crusaders when, from what I’ve seen, the obnoxious crusaders usually don’t care about fighting intellectual protectionism as much as about being a rebel without a clue that views Microsoft in particular as the root of all evil.

        • #3152098

          Granted, and edited.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to well . . .

          I’ve edited my previous comment and removed the “proprietary Armegeddon” remark. Is that sufficient to remove the “intellectual freedom advocates” from the definition?

          I don’t know what’s up with George Ou. I hadn’t heard of him before a few months ago, and suddenly he’s the regularly featured Blogger From The State of Redmond. His profile isn’t very enlightening. I don’t hang out anywhere but here, so maybe he’s a big wheel and I’m the only one unaware of his credentials.

        • #3152072

          the public face of George Ou

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Granted, and edited.

          He’s not exactly an industry trade rag heavyweight the way someone like Bruce Schneier (cryptography and security expert par excellence), Jakob Nielsen (best-known usability expert in the world), or Rob Enderle (most famous loud-mouthed buffoon in the IT industry) is. George isn’t an unknown nobody, either, though. He’s hosted panel discussions at major industry conferences, written some generally very good reports on goings-on in innovative subfields, and has a fairly extensive range of IT related knowledge. The man has almost five times as many directly relevant Google hits as me, and I’m not exactly an unknown either.

          The trouble as I see it is four-fold:

          1. He suffers from “not invented here” syndrome, at a step removed. Specifically, this means that he has a tendency to favor everything with which he is most familiar, and has an unfortunate tendency to denigrate things with which he is less familiar. There’s a specific set of psychological mechanisms behind this that are common to humans in general, I find, but I don’t really want to discuss that here as it could be perceived as insulting regardless of my intent (and it’s a bit long-winded and irrelevant).

          2. Despite his admirable accumulated skill and knowledge, there are holes in his understanding, just as there are holes in everyone’s understanding. He tends to fill these holes with wild assumptions and rote-memorized half-baked marketing FUD that has seeped into his head from years of constant exposure to it. At least, that’s what I think is going on, based on what I’ve seen. Either that, or he’s malevolent and purposefully destructive, but I really rather doubt that.

          3. He suffers from ego identification with his writings. That, too, is a common problem among humans: they create something, or say something, and develop an ego identification with their creations and/or statements so that anything that attacks the creation or the statement is perceived as an attack on the creator or speaker. I’ve seen this in action quite extensively here at TR, where about once every half-dozen posts he’ll start accusing me of being maliciously hurtful and insulting when all I’ve done is called his assumptions into question.

          4. He seems intentionally positioned here at TR to stir up trouble in hopes of fostering high-heat discussion threads, which in turn generates traffic, which in turn generates more advertising revenue for TechRepublic. As such, he seems even more a lackey of Bill and Steve than usual to the members of the TR community.

          As I said, I wouldn’t call him a heavy (or a “big wheel”, as you put it), but his name is recognizable to some measurable percentage of the pundit-reading IT industry.

          I think he’s been positioned as the MS FUD peddler here at TR in part because Steven Warren (self-styled “Hot Button”) is so tremendously bad at it.

        • #3152060

          As always, thanks.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to the public face of George Ou

          I’m not a pundit-reader, so I didn’t recognize him (or the other names you referenced). John Dvorak’s column in PC Mag is about as close as I come. Thanks for the overview.

        • #3153628

          welllll

          by hopefulcoder ·

          In reply to well . . .

          intellectual freedom advocates?? So IBM which funds so much on OSS (just linux) does not have even one OSS software on its own. hmmm Sun which had absolutely nor market for office, release openoffice and made it opensource, YET java is not opensource. Hmmm and the great OSS guys, they all work for free for their employer..dont they. Its just not a concept of Open source. Its just that IBM,SUN,google want to get rid of MS and capture its place.

        • #3153469
          Avatar photo

          Since IBM made MS what it is today

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to welllll

          WHY NOT?

          Col ]:)

      • #3152002

        Bad Generalization – All Technology Zealots Do That

        by davemori ·

        In reply to I don’t want to look like a zealot

        That is hardly something that is limited to Apple and Linux.

        Take a good look at this discussion board. You’ll find a much larger sized group of Windows zealots do the exact same thing:

        Telling you why their choice is right and your choice is wrong, and implying that you are stupid for not doing exactly what they do and not using the exact same solutions that they use.

        The sad thing is that too many information technology professionals generate their pride and self-worth through their belief in how adept they are in using a particular product, technology, OS or solution.

        I had a Wang WP administrator a long time ago who was just as bad. I also heard endless technobabble arguments from the Novell and Banyan gurus I worked with, the DEC VMS people I worked with, the IBM MVS people I worked with, the OS/2 people I worked with, the accountants who preferred Lotus 1-2-3 over Excel, the COBOL programmers, the FORTRAN programmers, the CAD people who preferred CATIA, AutoCAD, the PowerBuilder folks I worked with, and lots more.

        Nearly every technology has its place and every technology can generate value.

        This latest hype on Mac and open source security is ludicrous.

        We use different technologies because they generate value and they are cost effective, not because the majority of the market uses it.

        We take security seriously for everything. Windows, MacOS, LinUX, Solaris, you name it, and it is not a significant burden to think beyond Windows.

        We have a multiplatform, web client environment, because the solutions on different OSes and platforms create value to the company and users, and they are cost effective. It is not a significant issue to support more than one OS. As a matter of fact, or manpower and cost studies show that a selection of non-Windows platforms and solutions has actually consistently reduced our TCO and cost of operations when we look at what those costs probably would have been if we had gone with a Windows based solution.

        Windows is an excellent OS, but it is not the best choice for all of our needs, just as MS SQL Server is not the best choice for everything, and just as any other OS or product you could think of is not going to be the best choice for everything.

        If your people understand their business customers, know what they are doing, and have an open mind towards learning all technologies, it is not an issue to support any platform or solution.

        Our open attitude about different OS and different platorms has also made us far more customer focused, and has bought us really good relationships with our customers — so good that suggestions that IT be outsourced have consistently been very loudly dismissed by our own users.

        One recent outsourcing vendor was actually laughed out of the premises by every VP in the company.

        The present buzz about MacOS and LinUX vulnerabilities is more anti-Open Source hype, probably promoted by Microsoft-only aficianados that are all too common in IT.

        The hard reality is that Open Source is being very successful, and it generates cost effective solutions which create value to our company.

        Even if your company PREFERS to stay 100% Windows, there is no longer a viable reason for absolutely EVERY COMPANY to stay 100% Windows.

        Open Source offers a huge, compelling, very cost effective alternative in many, many solutions areas.

        Are there issues? Absolutely, but there are issues with every OS and every technology.

        Marketshare of computer products and technologies changes, and using marketshare as a “default” ruler to measure everything, is a stupid way of basing corporate decisions.

        Novell Netware, FORTRAN, COBOL, MVS IBM Mainframes, DEC Minis, dedicated word processing machines, and hundreds of other products and technologies went bye-bye. Everything loses marketshare and becomes obsolete sooner or later.

        It is foolish for an IT professional to adhere to something or some company so strongly that he or she refuses to have an open mind to anything else.

        If someone else’s company wants to go 100% Microsoft, fine. Let them do it. But I don’t want to hear lectures from anyone about what is best for our environment and our company. We have tried that route in the past. It does not work. Someone across the internet is unlikely to know beans about my company, our business, our users, our customers, our partners or our environment. Their criticisms and suggestions are not worth beans.

        We don’t consider the issue to be real at all.
        Sure, it is a possibility. You protect by doing
        the best you can.

        From a strictly volume of problem point, from a disruption cost point, and from a support cost point, Microsoft Windows and Internet Explorer running on Windows cause us more grief and more cost patching, fixing supporting than either Solaris, LinUX or the MacOS.

        On a cost basis and a frequency of violation basis, we could probably save more time and money and avoid a lot more unanticipated costs by throwing Microsoft Windows out of the company than throwing the MacOS or LinUX out of the company, but the issue again is that those solutions create some value to our company as well.

        It is stupid to throw out anything that creates value.

        We are always concerned about security, but we do not let this get leveraged into a political argument for one OS over another. We simply are committed to making sure that everything is as secure as possible.

      • #3151989

        Seriously, though, I just don’t have that many problems with Windows

        by smorty71 ·

        In reply to I don’t want to look like a zealot

        I know, I know. Stop laughing. I find that Windows meets most of my computing needs well enough that I am not willing to go out and learn another OS.

        Since I am an XBOX 360 owner, I love the integration between Windows Media Center 2005 and the XBOX 360.

        Sure I could use Myth TV or some other free media center app, but I like the simplicity and integration that is provided out of the box.

        With that said, I realize that I don’t have to support Windows machines and their vulnerabilities as part of my job. I’m sure I would be singing a different tune if I did.

        But for personal use, I find Windows meets my needs.

      • #3154165

        Big Prolem with Retailers

        by aaron a baker ·

        In reply to I don’t want to look like a zealot

        It’s my opinion that when a person is buying a new Computer, the unit will always come out of the store with a fully functional system.
        I feel that “the Client” should be the one to make that decision. Which system do they want? MS or Linux?
        This nonsense of Microsoft being the only ones auto-installed on all the units is ridiculous and misleading.
        It creates the impression that they are the only one out there and that the other systems are just MS wanna be’s.
        This of course is wrong.
        I feel quite strongly that the client should be made aware of all the facts and whatever system they choose is the on to be installed. Be it Microsoft or Linux.
        As things are right now, this is the edge that Microsoft has and should lose.
        The retailers should smarten up and start selling units that already come with pre-installed MS or Linux, all in the interest of fair play.
        Something Microsoft knows very little about.
        There is where the”Real” Problem lie’s with Linux, it’s not the product, it’s the fact that most people automatically get MS and don’t even know Linux exists or for that matter care..
        Change this and get the retailers to stop pre-loading MS.
        Then add to that, “Give us or Disks” instead of hiding all the info in an EISA partition and then we would begin to see an evening out of the playing field. The EISA Partition belongs to the client, therefore should not be used by the seller as a holding space out of the reach of the said client. This should be illegal.
        But as long as MS is allow to Monopolize the Sellers market, they will always come out the winner.
        Time for Linux to start taking them on in thier own back yard, on the bloody hard drive. 😉
        Regards
        Aaron 🙂

        • #3154004

          You’re not making much sense.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Big Prolem with Retailers

          “I feel quite strongly that the client should be made aware of all the facts … ”

          Who do you think should be responsible for making the buyer aware of these facts? The zit-faced kid behind the electronics counter? The one who was selling paint last month and will be transferred to lawn and garden next month? Few manufacturers and retailers of any products are responsible for educating the consumer as to their product options, at least not in the U.S. McDonalds doesn’t give out a copy of “Supersize Me” before taking your order for a Happy Meal. The consumer is responsible for educating himself.

          ” … most people automatically get MS and don’t even know Linux exists or for that matter care.”

          Right. Since they don’t care, they won’t educate themselves.

          “The retailers should smarten up and start selling units that already come with pre-installed MS or Linux, all in the interest of fair play.”

          Retailers aren’t concerned with “the interest of fair play”. They’re responsible to their shareholders to maximize profits. Nothing requires a manufacture to carry every brand, version, or option for every product they sell. There is nothing monopolistic about choosing to stock only those products the retailer thinks are the most profitable.

          ” … get the retailers to stop pre-loading MS.”

          Retailers don’t load operating systems, manufacturers do. Retailers sell those products they feel will bring in the most money. Right now they think the most profit can be made selling systems from manufacturers that pre-load Windows.

        • #3160929

          Misstated my intent, sorry

          by aaron a baker ·

          In reply to You’re not making much sense.

          What I was saying was;
          How do we create a level playing field. That was the bottom line question, however misstated.
          I had indeed misstated when I said retailers instead of manufacturers but the bottom line doesn’t change, unless someone out there wants it to.
          My point was and still is, what do you think would happen if the “Retailer” was in a position to offer one or the other?
          What choices would there be, would the public address them.
          For the most part, I found that general consensus to be, “just give me keys and I’ll figure out the rest later”.
          Problem with this is by the time they’ve ” Figured out the rest” it’s usually too late.
          It makes perfect sense to me. It starts at the core i.e. the manufacturers then move on to the Retailers.
          Linux is still very much an underground program, or viewed as such by many and this is wrong.
          This is due to naivety on our parts. We simply do not know enough about it in order to render judgment one way or another.
          I know this may seem silly to people like yourself who are fully versed in Linux, but if you look at it from the Novices’ “My” 😉 point of view, you can see what I mean.
          I feel that Linux should be installed in the same way as MS, i.e. right at the manufacturer then the retailer could offer a greater choice, point out the salient points on both systems etc.
          But judging by what I’ve seen behind most counters today, I seriously doubt that this will happen.
          For the most part, all you get is attitude, arrogance ad if you actually ask an in-depth and intelligent question, they turn into little zombies. It’s like they go into shock and then say, “Wait I’ll get someone who can help with that”
          So you see, my point is not that Linux is Bad, it’s not. It’s just that a lot better job could be done to promote this product and yes you’re right, I still don’t know all that much about it and it frustrated the hell out of me, because I don’t know where to go to get the answers.
          Not platitudes or “how great it is” but genuine answers to legitimate questions.
          In the meantime, I’d still like to see an MS system setup and running and right next to it and Linux just as setup and also running .
          I believe it would be interesting to watch the reaction and good for Linux.
          Palmetto;
          Apologies for being slow on the return,Just nuts right now.
          Thanks for the comeback 🙂
          Aaron

        • #3160773

          Ah, now we agree

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Misstated my intent, sorry

          This may surprise you, but most of the major manufacturers and even some of the big box retailers already make systems available with a Linux distro pre-installed.

          Unfortunately, they are usually available only on those manufacturers’ / retailers’ web sites. It takes some digging on the manufacturers’ web sites to find a machine with Linus pre-loaded. I suspect they make it difficult to find for reasons related to their MS licensing agreements, but they will sell you one if you insist. For a while Wal-mart did stock a Linux box (running Lindows, I recall) in their brick-and-mortar stores but now they carry them only on the web.

    • #3154364

      But I DO use Linux….

      by tommy higbee ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      But I DO use Linux.

      I guess I’ll try anyway, with some reasons NOT to use Linux.

      I don’t use Linux because…

      1) I’m too busy reinstalling Windows to learn anything new
      2) Rob Enderle said I shouldn’t
      3) I hear they’re a bunch of Commies
      4) It can’t be good if Bill Gates isn’t selling it
      5) I hear you have to recompile the kernel all the time
      6) I hear it doesn’t support any hardware
      7) Rebooting servers gives me a warm glow
      8) I must spend all my IT budget, or I lose it
      9) I’ve already spent too much on Windows software
      10) Don’t need it. My home mainframe works great.
      11) I love my AS400 too much
      12) I’m using xxx Unix instead (where xxx is one of FreeBSD, OpenBSD, AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, etc)
      13) Might lose my Microsoft paycheck for writing “grassroots” anti-Linux letters

      • #3152285

        my favorite

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to But I DO use Linux….

        Number 2 is definitely the funniest of those. Thanks for that list. It was a hoot.

        • #3152281

          not #2, #13 is funnier.

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to my favorite

          ~lol~

        • #3152111

          13 is easier to appreciate.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to not #2, #13 is funnier.

          Number 2 is something from which you won’t get full value unless you’re as familiar with the guy’s public career as I am. It probably also helps that there are a couple people with whom I’m glancingly acquainted who tend to respond to any article quoting Enderle by sending emails to the authors and editors of the articles in question telling them that they should stop quoting that FUD peddler, and they tend to name me and a couple other people as examples of thoughtful and reasonable sources of quotable information.

      • #3147033

        Thanks.

        by nighthawk808 ·

        In reply to But I DO use Linux….

        I wish we had a million posters here as funny as you.

        As for number 11: IBM sells AS/400’s with SLES or RHEL preinstalled. I’d much rather have either of those than the OS/400 I have to deal with every day. There’s nothing more enjoyable than typing WRKSYSVAL QTIME just to find out what time it is. The scary thing is that after a while, the TLA’s start to make perfect sense.

    • #3152103

      because I haven’t had the chance…

      by zydeco blue ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      … to learn.

      I’ve really only had the chance to use Microsoft products, and since that’s what we have used everywhere I’ve worked, that’s what I know.

      I’m always looking to learn more, but without a programming background, the concept of Linux is rather intimidating. I know there are people who are enthusiastic about all different systems, so I’m basing my thoughts on the opinions of others on both sides of the fence, hence the confusion and apprehension.

    • #3152050

      because…

      by heml0ck ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I’ve never liked anybody named Linus!

    • #3152049

      “I don’t use Linux because…”

      by ct4er ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t use Linux because my SCANNER, my INTERNAL MODEM and my WIRELESS card don’t work with Linux.
      CT4ER

      • #3151976

        Bogus

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to “I don’t use Linux because…”

        Your scanner may or may not work…but I can say (about a 99% chance) that your internal modem will work with community packages and your wireless card will work with either ndiswrapper or madwifi…

        No go troll somewhere else.

        • #3153532

          Additional work required.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Bogus

          ” … your internal modem will work with community packages and your wireless card will work with either ndiswrapper or madwifi …”

          Apparently they worked with Windows out of the box. For many users that’s important.

        • #3153459
          Avatar photo

          Strange

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Additional work required.

          You didn’t need to install any drivers?

          Or do you have one of the Off the Shelf units that come from the big makers who [b]Slipstream[/b] only the necessary drivers for the hardware that they supply and to Hell with everything else?

          I’ve yet to find a single WiFi card that will wortk the moment that you plug it into a Windows Box without first installing the drivers rebooting and then installing the necessary software. But as you claim that they work [b]Out of the Box[/b] I must be so removed from the current technology that maybe I should just give it all up and walk away. I’d love to but unfortantly my customers and staff refuse to allow me to do this so I don’t get to play with my [b]Play Toys[/b] as much a I would like and I certianly don’;t get to restore any of them, I have to pay others to do this as I’m constantly called away whenever I try to do the simplest thing. I even had to pay to have someone fit a CD/MP3 player to one of my Classic Mercedes because I just didn’t have the 20 minutes required to fit the thing available. :_|

          Col ]:)

        • #3153423

          Probably

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Strange

          ” … you have one of the Off the Shelf units that come from the big makers who Slipstream only the necessary drivers for the hardware … ”

          I assumed that was the case when I made my comment, although I admit that was an assumption. If that is the case, I’m not defending the manufacturer’s approach. My only point is that some users aren’t comfortable having to do additional configuration to get the hardware to work beyond sticking in a self-installing CD, especially at the command prompt.

        • #3153356
          Avatar photo

          The Hardware that I use on Nix comes with a CD

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Probably

          That Auto Runs and has a GUI for the user to install from it’s really no harder than doing the same thing in Windows.

          Of course any Digitally Signed MS Hardware doesn’t have a Nix driver supplied as this is part of the MS agreement with the Hardware Makers they are unable to support any different platforms for that particular piece of Hardware that MS accepts.

          When you want to use these you need to find the right drivers and software but then again it’s really no harder than downloading some updated drivers and installing under Window. There really isn’t much command line work at all if you wish to stay in the GUI. It can be done or just like Windows you can run things from the command line if you want to. It’s really not something that I see as a problem.

          If granny wants to buy some new hardware for her Win Box it’s going to require fitting and installing the drivers for so why is it any different with a Nix particuarly if it’s one of the Light Weight Ones which is designed as being User Friendly as apposed to the Full Multi User Capacity that a proper Nix offers.

          If you want to see something really scary for the MS folk get a copy of Corel Linux and try installing it you’ll get the entire thing installed OS Software and everything in about 20 minutes and other than entering the time zone User Name & Password there is nothing else to do. This is probably why MS killed off this project as it would have killed the Windows Market in very short order.

          Col

    • #3152035

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by mark miller ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      (talking about my home PCs, one of which I use for work sometimes) I don’t see a reason to. I know how to run Windows XP securely so security isn’t really an issue for me. I know what the virus-infected e-mails look like, so I avoid them. I run the built-in firewall to prevent worm attacks. I get updates from Windows Update regularly and install them almost as soon as they come out.

      I know there are lots and lots of Windows viruses out there. One time at work 6 years ago I got caught by an e-mail worm, which was harmless (all it did was e-mail itself to my coworkers–an annoyance but nothing to write home about). That was the first and last time I had gotten any sort of infection on a computer I was using. We easily prevented future attacks by turning off the preview pane in Outlook (later corporate policy with our parent company required us to switch to Lotus Notes, which obviated any auto-execute scripts).

      Anything I need to run I can run on Windows. Even if I want to use an open source tool for something, which I do occasionally, very often I can find a version that runs on Windows.

      One big difference with me is I’m not an IT administrator or sysadmin. I’m a software developer. So my priorities are different. I’m not so concerned about 9999.99% uptime ratings with the OS I use (though I try to shoot for that with the software I write).

      I used Unix several years ago. It’s a nice, reliable OS, like Linux, but I got tired of it after a while. I find Windows to be better suited to what I use a computer for.

      I think the only time I’d start using Linux by choice is if I was involved in some project and the software or tool I needed only ran on it, or if a part of the project was working with a client’s existing Linux system.

    • #3152033

      Beige Box

      by marty_mathieson ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I only have 1 Beige Box

    • #3151996

      Its in there

      by azerthoth ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I dont use Linux because …

      I have a DVD player attached to my television. (over 75% of commercial DVD players are idiot linux boxes.)

      I use a wireless router. (Many commercial routers these days have a bastardized form of linux inside)

      Nope I dont use linux at all.

    • #3151957

      I like to set my $ on fire.

      by absolutely ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      😀

    • #3151951

      I love rebooting

      by mtowery ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I love rebooting and several of my linux machines have been up for over a year with rebooting 🙂

    • #3153645

      Linux Ugh!

      by arnthal ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I like the intuitive interaction with my Mac.

      • #3153527

        Intuitive?

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to Linux Ugh!

        I love it when people refer to anything in the IT field as intuitive. If you can find a person unfamiliar with computers, put three computers in front of him – a Mac, a Wintel box, and the Linux / GUI distro of your choice. Power up the CPU and the monitor and we’ll see how “intuitive” each of them is.

        • #3152941

          Oddly enough…

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Intuitive?

          Way back in the Bell Labs days there was a lot of research done around user interfaces. The MAC was brought out with the icons chosen so that (according to the rather expensive research) the users made the correct choice for what they wanted to do about 95% of the time. That is why they started the Mac out with the ad “The computer for the rest of us.”

    • #3153602

      Linux on Laptop

      by contract ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I love Linux I really do, but….. I still cannot get everything to work on my Fujitsu laptop. I keep reverting back to Windows for work after spending weekends trying to get everything to function. I think Linux still has a long way to go in order to make it more universally friendly, but hey, I am sure it’ll get there eventually!

      • #3152756

        What distro and what doesn’t work?

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to Linux on Laptop

        NT

      • #3156429

        What a difference a distro makes

        by andy ·

        In reply to Linux on Laptop

        I have only clunker of an HP laptop, according to the little sticker I just ripped off the case it was “made for Windows Me” poor little bugger.

        Anyways, it doesnt have wifi or even a built in NIC so one of the big factors of which distro I use is hardware recognition. Download a bunch of Live CD’s, try em, and whichever one picks up most of your hardware, install.

        To my surprise the best recognition to date hasn’t been Ubuntu, or Red Hat or Fedora or even Suse but PCLinuxOS.

        Linspire picked it up too but I found it a mite slow.

        So just because one disty dont cut it, try another. Not only do you get to experience a whole bunch of new installs, GUI’s and desktops but, in my case, I ended up with a laptop faster than the day it came off the production line.

        Stick with it, there’s nothing wrong with MS and I have nothing against their products but the times they are a changing. And being Linux savvy will never harm your career.

    • #3153601

      practical reasons

      by jihernandez ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      The road to paradise is full of trouble. I have travelled from “terminals” to “PC”, from Unix to MS-DOS, and , just to write, make calculations, and play, it is too expensive to start again. Call it laziness. May be true.

    • #3153586

      I don’t use Linux because it is too complicated.

      by lynn_beeler ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t use Linux because it is too complicated.

      My 1st thought when I saw your article. After a some further thought, I want to use my computer to carry out my requirements and not spend the required time to learn a new OS.

      Lynn Beeler

      • #3152754

        How is it too complicated?

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because it is too complicated.

        What can you not do in Linux? What’s too complicated to do?

        • #3159034

          one example…

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to How is it too complicated?

          Needed a security cam solution, a particular camera has alrady been selected, based on it’s feature set (BTW, the cam was an embedded linux device). Opted to use motion (www.lavrsen.dk a pretty incredible creation actually). unfortuantely, there was no package for it at that time (I see there is now), so downloaded the sources. make failed, had to browse the source to find an out-of-date lib and rename references to the new lib name, then make. Didn’t include an MPEG encoder, so had to grab and make Berkeley MPEG-1 Encoder (ran into a glitch on that too, but I can’t find the notes on it now). CAM not supported by motion, so we change the cam itself to push (ftp) the images to an upload repository onthe motion server. Then use a third party graphic program to create the mask file for each of the cams to restrict motion sensing. Every couple weeks we get calls because the system isn’t working (FTP goes nuts trying to handle the webcam connections). And have to restart the server.

          We go and buy a $200 widnows program. Run setup.exe add the cam’s create the masks directly on the active cam screens, and voila. Thing has been running for two years, and never had to touch it once.

          (I do realize that this is a fairly unique situation. I also do use Linux for some things My NTP server, for instance. I find it easier to configure and manage Linux NTP over windows. But I thought this was a worthy anecdote to mention).

        • #3158911

          Sounds like a vendor problem, not a Linux problem

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to one example…

          Why go with a vendor that doesn’t support the OS of choice?

        • #3158702

          Or, sounds like a user problem, not a Linux problem

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Sounds like a vendor problem, not a Linux problem

          Why go with an OS that doesn’t support the hardware you purchased?

          As you noted yourself, this isn’t a typical installation. It would have been much easier if the hardware, software, and OS compatibility had been checked before purchasing.

        • #3159168

          Sorry,

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to Sounds like a vendor problem, not a Linux problem

          I am not following you. The camera was an embedded Linux System, with a feature set the end users desired. It was purchased as an observation cam prior to the wish to record, based on motion sensing. The first attempt at implementing motion sensing/recording was done using the previously mentioned package (a decent system, really. The author is to be commended for his fine work). The key point of interest is that the Linux solution was in fact more complicated. Yes, the system was not a planned system. No, the components were not checked for compatibility. But then, neither was the windows application.

        • #3159615

          Shardeth, it’s my week to go off half-cocked.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Sounds like a vendor problem, not a Linux problem

          Apparently I’m having trouble remembering what said in a thread from one hour to the next. I confused some of the details in your camera post with different thread. I’ll just sit quietly in the corner for a while…

    • #3153583

      I’m Lazy

      by marianne.popp9 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I’ve been promising myself…but it’s on my to do list still

    • #3153577

      My daughter wants to play SIMS2

      by linux&windows ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      One of the problems with getting the home user to use Linux (any flavour) is the lack of good quality commercial games. I realise the argument should be that PCs are not for gaming, but that’s what most of them are used for.

      • #3152739
        • #3152694

          I love this routine.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Cedega

          Step 1: Uninformed Windows user says he can’t run his app (usually a game) under Linux.

          Step 2: Linux advocate posts, “Yes, you can.” and points to what I’ll ignorantly call emulation software.

          While the Linux advocate is 100% correct, compatibility with an existing app isn’t going to motivate a home user to start learning a new OS.

        • #3160646

          Actually

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to I love this routine.

          That’s not entirely true Palmetto. As I’m one of them.

          The only thing that was keeping me on Windows is gaming.

          I saw his post on Cedega months ago, and wanted to try it out.

          The problem now is hardware failure (not from Linux, I fried my vid card or something). If I could get my spare computer running Linux, and get Cedega set up, I’d learn the new OS in a heartbeat, and jump ship from windows.

          But I had issues setting up Cedega in kUbuntu (pre-failure, but I think it was a vid card issue) so I’m a bit afraid to just switch my main computer over until I know it does what I want it to…

          It now sets up, but I still get an error… I’ll futz with it this weekend when I have time to play with it and see what happens…

          I just wanted to let you know that not every Windows home user is a happy user, and sometimes, (just sometimes!) we’re even willing to try.

        • #3160631

          Thanks.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Actually

          Poor phrasing on my part, as usual. I probably should have said, ” … compatibility with an existing app BY ITSELF isn’t going to motivate a home user to start learning a new OS.”

        • #3158979

          So what?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Thanks.

          I don’t think anyone claimed it would. The point here is that someone complained about the inability to run a given app on Linux as a reason for not using it. Pointing out how untrue that assumption about compatibility is does not constitute an assumption that compatibility is a reason to switch OSes. It’s just removing an obstacle. If, with all obstacles removed, you still want to stay with Windows, then do so.

          Why do you keep reacting as though “metoo” compatibility is some kind of evangelical rallying cry? It’s not. It’s just debunking some myths.

          For the most part, those of us (like me, jmgarvin, et cetera) who spend a fair bit of time telling people like rickk when they’re wrong do so not to proselytize for Linux, but to counteract the FUD that is doing a disservice to people who are made afraid to try something new.

        • #3158924

          No Fear Here

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to So what?

          We aren’t afraid of trying something new.

          We just don’t have time to mess around with another OS when the one we have works just fine.

          If the “afraid of trying something new” were part of the deal, hell, why don’t we all just take a week off work per OS and test them all out.

          Surely there are at least 52 different OS’s…I could go home and not have to work for a whole year.

          After all, part of the Linux argument is customization and picking the one that works best for you.

          Too bad it would take the rest of my freakin life to find the right one.

        • #3158817

          What’s this “we” crap?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to So what?

          You’re not one of the people having a disservice done to them by others sowing FUD and being made afraid to try something new by the spreading of anti-anything-not-Microsoft BS. You are, in fact, one of the people spreading FUD. Go back, reread my previous post, and notice that I very firmly separated you from the “afraid” camp, and placed you in the “FUD” camp instead.

          You can stop playing this solidarity game now.

        • #3160037

          Your intent isn’t coming across in text.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to So what?

          “Why do you keep reacting as though “metoo” compatibility is some kind of evangelical rallying cry? … Those of us … who spend a fair bit of time … do so not to proselytize for Linux, but to counteract the FUD …”

          I’m reacting that way becease -sometimes- the “Yes, you can run Windows apps under Linux” message is phrased in a way implies that compatibility is the only requirement to be met before the user makes the switch. I looked back at this particular thread of the discussion and see that isn’t the case. If I’ve stepped on any toes, I apologize. I’ll quit beating this horse in this discussion, and be more restrained about climging back on it (badly mangled metaphor).

        • #3159864

          Worry not.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to So what?

          I don’t think you stepped on anyone’s toes, Palmetto. I was just pointing out that mentioning Windows software can be run on Linux isn’t generally used as a tool for proselytizing, and wondering why you seemed to think it was.

        • #3161166

          Palmetto, you’ve given me an idea!

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to I love this routine.

          I’ve been looking for a project to teach myself PHP and/or Perl with. I’ve got one: I’ll save us all a lot of trouble and write something that greps for phrases that contain “can’t” “run” “games” “Linux” in proximity to one another and automatically creates and submits a post with the title “Yes, you can.” and contains a link to http://www.transgaming.com. In tribute to my favorite autoresponding trollbot, I’ll call it rickk++.

          That would free up a lot more time for me to tend to my LART.

          On second thought, maybe I should write it in C#. After all, if you’re going to write a brain-dead application, you might as well use a brain-dead language.

        • #3161138

          That’ll teach my to keep my mouth shut and my hands off the keyboard.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Palmetto, you’ve given me an idea!

          It’s a shame I haven’t done any programming in over a decade, and that was all FORTRAN and COBOL. If I had, I might have been able to understand your references to PERL, PHP, greps, LART, and C#. Oh well …

          🙂

        • #3147063

          This one’s platform-independent.

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to That’ll teach my to keep my mouth shut and my hands off the keyboard.

          LART: Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool. A cluebat.

        • #3146391

          Well, that would be easy.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Palmetto, you’ve given me an idea!

          Grab some simple webspider script written in Perl, target it at TR, add a one-liner regex-centric statement, and graft an API onto it for dealing with TR. Voila. You’re in business.

          The tough part would be getting the API specs.

        • #3146248

          Yes, but

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to Well, that would be easy.

          if I wanted to slap together some random prewritten code, add some cruft on top of it, and then call it a program, I’d send my r?sum? to Microsoft. 🙂

    • #3153560

      I don’t use it

      by mfb ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I’ll start with a statement and a question. Documentation is terrible. What’s the advantage?

    • #3153551

      because…

      by tygyrtoo ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      …because heavily-commented text-based config files drive me nuts.

      Why some (most) ‘NIX geeks insist on writing 5 pages of drivel followed by an obscure commented commend (that MUST be entered exactly as shown and not with/without space, semicolon, comma, tab space or return/line feed) when a simple GUI window with checkboxes and options does EXACTLY the same thing faster, better and without having to read said ‘NIX geek’s technobabbled “instructions” is beyond me.

      That’s my $0.02+tx.

      • #3152746

        Then use the GUI…

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to because…

        Jeez…if you don’t like the config files, use the GUI. There are a ton of built-ins for Gnome and KDE…Hell, there are third party GUIs like webmin and SWAT (for Samba)

        Problem solved.

        • #3160373

          Vicious circle

          by tygyrtoo ·

          In reply to Then use the GUI…

          Right – and to get those GUIs working, I have to do… guess what? Yes, config those files.

          My first experience with RedHat, back in the day, involved trying to get X up and running. Sounds simple, right? I couldn’t get it to display in more than 640×480, even though the settings were perfect. Many hours of cursing and three weeks later I FINALLY discover the VERTICAL refresh rate of my standard monitor (again buried in a vast and commented text file) was exactly 1Hz out and this was causing the issue.

          GUIs under UNIX? Ha!

        • #3160233

          here we go again

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Vicious circle

          I’m getting tired of reading arguments that consist of something like “I tried Red Hat Linux 5 once and it was rilly hard!” The world has moved on. Get with the times. Your so-called experience is obsolete.

        • #3160085
          Avatar photo

          What I like is that the same person will never say

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to here we go again

          I used Windows 3.11 For Work groups and it only took be half a day to setup the [b]Internet Connection[/b] but insist on comparing obsolete Nix installs to the newest Windows Install.

          My attitude is leave them to their Win Boxes and let them all go the way of the Dodo when MS implodes there will be fewer IT workers on the scene and I’ll have an easier life along with clients who have working systems that I can keep working.

          Have you ever noticed that the same people who insist that change for the sake of change is unnecessary, don’t mention this when the newest MS products hit the streets requiring a totally different way of doing the same thing and needs a new learning curve all over again.

          Heaven help them if Billy Boy ever takes up his Unix option and uses a Windows newly developed Front End on a Unix Backend and allows it to actually work correctly with the set standards instead of the crap MS self imposed standard. 😀

          Col

        • #3160045

          I Would Hardly Consider

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to What I like is that the same person will never say

          I would hardly consider the move from Win 98 to Win 2000 or Win 2000 to Win XP a “totally different way of doing the same thing” or “needs a new learning curve”.

          If that is your rationale, then Fedora 3 to Fedora 4 is a totally different way of doing the same thing or needs a new learning curve as well.

          We all know that new OS’s simply fix problems, introduce new features, and unfortunately mess around with our GUI for the sake of eye candy.

          Linux is no better than Windows in that regard.

          Both OS’s simply get more bloated and have more feature creep from version to version. It is a shared problem with one or the other at times suffering more or less than the other.

          As for Microsoft, don’t hold your breath. If you are waiting for them to implode, whether that happens or not, it won’t be anytime soon.

          I’m putting my money where the most number of clients are. And those same clients are still working.

        • #3160729

          If only you knew.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I Would Hardly Consider

          You’re really oblivious to how much you just don’t know about Linux — aren’t you?

        • #3160642

          Yeah, I have to agree with apotheon

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to I Would Hardly Consider

          You can upgrade a *nix OS without upgrading the GUI. Windows XP and 2K do have “Classic” mode, but it appears different from 9x.

          With Windows, some of the bloatware is unremovable. Add / Remove Programs lists OE, Messenger, and some other options as removable, but all that gets removed is the shortcuts. The apps are still present and in some cases still start services. Some options don’t even appear in Add / Remove without editing an .INI file. Try removing IE. *nix systems can be stripped down to the bare minimum if desired.

        • #3160580
          Avatar photo

          Well lets have a look at those current Clients

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I Would Hardly Consider

          How many of them moved from 98 to ME to Y2K to XP in that order?

          From my experience [b]NONE![/b] All my customers stuck with 98 till the bitter end and even them where willing to pay for XP Pro Licenses and have 98 loaded. When Me Y2K and XP where being sold side by side with 98 what was constantly outselling the other 98! I was even loading 98 once support had officially stopped for it at the customers request.

          They then went from 98 to XP Pro SP1 at the very least and this was a massive step to take but they where finally forced into it by MS total lack of support for software that they had been selling only 12 months previously. Now we have XP nearing the end if it’s 5 year life cycle but as yet no replacement on the streets. The last version of Office was released in 2003 about 2 years after XP was released and just after 2003 ES was released.

          What new product that is used by the masses has MS produced since 2003? What is the value of MS Shares right at the moment? If you feel so good about them rush out and buy all the MS Shares that you can afford as you are sure to make some easy money off them right?

          How many times has Vista release data been put back? Will MS continue to support XP even though it’s older than any other OS that they have ever had when Vista becomes available? I’m guessing not after all they have already supported it far longer than any previous OS they have ever built and currently we do not know when Vista will go into production. I’m sure that at the meeting that I go to next week the Sales People from MS will have all nice Screen Shots of Vista to show us but I’m equally sure that they will not have a working computer loaded with it there.

          Lets face facts MS hasn’t released any new OS since 2001 with the advent of XP and even then XP was consistently out sold by 98 as the people [b]Didn’t want it.[/b] Can you see them accepting Vista with Open Arms and rushing out waiting for several days for it’s release in shops where they can pay way too much for way too little like they did with 95?

          The currently slated release is First Quarter 2007 so that will be Winter in the Northern Hemisphere I’m betting that most of the people will stay at home in bed and forget about the release of Vista.

          But by all means ignore your Financial Adviser and invest all your retirement funds in Microsoft the shares are cheap right now and if you get in soon you may even get to see yourself loosing money as they drop further as MS has no prospect of releasing a new product in the foreseeable future that will grab the [b]Mass Market[/b] World Wide. Currently Europe is doing everything possible to prevent a MS Strangle hold in there China is doing exactly the same with it own home grown Linux to break China’s dependence on the Redmond product as well as many of the Asian Countries are.

          You’re in the US so they will probably sell on for quite some time yet but in the long run they are doomed as they have just Plain & Simply upset way too many people who now want as little as anything possible to do with them. Even the Pirates in China are no longer interested in flogging their product surely that should tell you something.

          Col

      • #3160750

        “Instructions””

        by vetch_101 ·

        In reply to because…

        Instructions actually help the people who write the GUIs that enable you to do what you want to to write what you want them to…

        Besides, the beauty of text-based config files is their portability. If you backup a few text files you can practically have a complete “identical” system running on another machine in minutes…

        • #3160378

          …a.k.a. a lesson in unintelligibility.

          by tygyrtoo ·

          In reply to “Instructions””

          I can also port many of my Windows settings in an easy file format. It’s called .ini files (or .cfg files, or whatever).

          I can also see all the settings, usually, in a convenient checkboxed, windowed and tabbed format which is usually self-explanatory and logically presented.

          Should I need help I also have the option of using the help manual or function which usually has a searchable index complete with hyperlinks for cross-referencing.

          UNIX config files don’t do this. They’re usually just a random mishmash of technobabbled explanations in amongst unintelligible “commands” arranged in no particular order.

          I can set up several programs differently in Windows in seconds with the checkbox option. Under UNIX, with the scrolling and entering and checking-to-make-sure-there’s-no-extra-spaces, it takes minutes.

          With a full schedule and being hounded by bosses who are very much aware how much they pay me by the hour, those minutes mean a lot.

        • #3160051

          What FUD

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to …a.k.a. a lesson in unintelligibility.

          What can’t you do with a Linux config file GUI that you can in Windows.

          Hell, DNS is basically 2 clicks and you are setup. What the hell do you want?

    • #3153543

      of it’s ease of use, I use Linux because…

      by bill ward ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      of it’s great security features and ease of setting up a server (I use IPCop for my firewall, and Fedora Core 4 for a backup server).

      However, I DON’T use Linux for my desktop (though I sometimes have a machine in a dual boot configuration, and I do have Linux in a VMWare environment on my work machine). Main reason not to use Linux only (ok, laugh) is it’s lack of support for the games that matter to me, my wife, and my kids.

      I love Unix, and really like Linux… but until support improves accross the board (maybe when Microsoft goes totally Gestapo with the “Genuine Advantage” stuff for Vista…) I’ll be forced to Linux.

    • #3153542

      Use Linux?

      by mpowell ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      “I don’t use Linux because Bill Gates pays my salary!!”

      Hello Bongo.

    • #3153524

      “I don’t use Linux because…”

      by gbarn ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      “like, what is Linux?”

    • #3153519

      Windows Pays the Bills

      by wannabegates ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Because 90% of the world DOESN’T use LINUX.

      Because I don’t want to Spend $ on Linux Version of my apps. Macromedia products for example (I know that’s more than 10)

    • #3153500

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by cmcarlson.com ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      1) Have no idea where to start…

      2) have hard enough time getting all my sketchy, software to run on windows, let alone some operating system whose name sounds like it is the evil twin brother of Lexus…

      3) who can afford two computers?

    • #3153467

      Support

      by jekoski1 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      The lack of public support, and the software I need would not have any help desk to resolve any problems.

      • #3152744

        Tons of support

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to Support

        There are huge number of forums, wikis, and even google has their own special section in their search engine: http://www.google.com/linux

    • #3153393

      I don’t use Linux because…….

      by soundchaser ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Maybe I don’t get it, or need to be more educated in this, I don’t know. I use to run Unix BSD, SCO Zenix, DEC OS’s, VMS. When it came down to what I run on the PC’s at my business, one of the primary concerns I had to struggle with was: What OS would allow me the most options for BUSINESS RELATED SOFTWARE. the choice was clear cut. I am not saying that different OS’s don’t have their advantages administration-wise, but when it comes to what I can suggest as software solutions to business problems, I choose MS. I shouldn’t have to run different shells in order to make my software “look” like Windows, or run those shells to allow a Windows based product to run under Linux, Unix, or whatever.

      Please, someone, tell me how I can satisfy the business software requirements running Linux without all the add-ons.

      Thanks!

    • #3153384

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by itjunkie ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I am not retarded.

      • #3153379

        Hey apotheon!

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because…

        Here’s the other side of the coin. I think this is the first post of this kind in the discussion. It took longer than I thought it would.

        • #3153830

          Would the opposite be true?

          by ziskey ·

          In reply to Hey apotheon!

          “I am not retarded.”

          If the title of the thread was “I don’t use Microsoft because…” I’m guessing this type of drivel would have been in the first few posts.

          To answer to the original question… I don’t use Linux (at home) because I don’t want to re-train the rest of my family on a replacement for something that already works sufficiently.

    • #3153377

      “I don’t use Linux because…”

      by wgp_enoch ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      …I can’t spell CLI.

    • #3153331

      …it would be like handing a gun to a monkey.

      by david.luke ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I have neither time nor machines to sacrifice to the learning process. Suppose I create a spam zombie or zap my home access to the web? It may hold great promise, but how can I find time to explore it when I am being pecked to death by chickens? (Those are metaphorical chickens. No implication of coworkers was implied or should be construed. No chicken was harmed during the writing of this tirade, though some may have experienced bitterness.)

    • #3152937

      “I don’t use Linux because…”

      by mikewbc ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I work for nonprofit and Microsoft donates all our software!

    • #3152913

      MS has a monopoly

      by cwgmpls ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Since the price of MS Office and MS XP is included in the price of all major brand computers, why bother with anything else?

      • #3152700
        Avatar photo

        And the Bully Boy Tatics to go with it

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to MS has a monopoly

        Currently they are attempting to force System Builders to install some form on Windows on machines that will never be loaded with any MS product and they insist that you as a System Builder don’t allow blank boxes to leave the shop.

        What I find particuarly distaseful with this is that with the cheap end of the Market you are paying more for the MS Products than for the hardware and even on the Business range the costs work out around the 50 50 mark with half the price of a new computer being the MS Products that are installed on it.

        The real rubbish end of the market I can not buy Legal Copies of the MS products that are installed for the price that they are selling the complete package for. But MS doesn’t offer discounts for buying in volume right. :^0

        Col

    • #3152894

      Tsk,Tux…

      by albookario ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Isn’t the penguin an endangered species?

    • #3152856

      Lack of knowledge

      by aaron a baker ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t use it because I don’t know enough about it.
      I tried to install it once and by the time I had completed the step which lead to c then back to d here you had to prepare a disk I threw up my hands and said the heck with it.
      Seems to me, they could have made it a little easier for we “The novices” to be able to put this on our systems.
      Instead, it’s a jumble and a walk into he unknown so I stayed away. “Chicken, darned right” 😉 I don’t mind trying something out, but I’m not about to waste a second of my life creating this disk or that disk or doing this, changing that all to accommodate a system, that I can’t even begin to recognize or understand.
      I had thought that If I installed it, I might gain some knowledge, “Wrong”.
      So nothing against Linux, you have to know it to hate it, I don’t, on all counts. 🙂
      Regards
      Aaron

      • #3152740

        Dude, what were you installing?

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to Lack of knowledge

        There are also plenty of LiveCDs out there. Most distros not only auto partition, but almost auto install. You just decide on the install “type” and away you go.

        Check out Ubuntu…they’ll send you a CD for free!

        If you really want to get jiggy with it check out gentoo, but be warned, it requires a lot of effort the first go around.

        • #3161198

          You know JM, It’s been so long

          by aaron a baker ·

          In reply to Dude, what were you installing?

          That all I remember is that I was supposed to make a diskette, that would eventually lead me into starting the install and then another diskette would be need etc. Then when I got to a certain point I would be able to put in the CD and carry on from there. This was in the day when they were giving them away 6 or 7 years ago.
          So I have no doubt in my mind that they must have improved considerably but it left a bad taste in my mouth and I stand guilty of really not tying hard enough to give it another go. “Mea Culpa”
          But I’ve got to tell you, with all the crap that Microsoft is pulling now, I’m thinking very hard of buying another Computer and trying again.
          All I can really tell you is that it came in a red hat Box with Diskettes, two or three books, and a CD I think and that’s about all I remember of it.
          So you see, I really am a Linux novice, but one that is willing to learn and improve and as I suspect that XPPro will probably be my last MS System, it will be sooner than later.
          The Bottom line is, This was a very long time ago and I was completely out of my depth, and boy, it showed. 😉
          In many ways, I still am. :p
          Regards
          Aaron 🙂

        • #3147025
          Avatar photo

          Well Aaron the Last Red Hat

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to You know JM, It’s been so long

          Came with 7 CD’s and auto installed without a hitch even easier than an OEM install of Windows XP and they have got better since then.

          I think I paid something like $39.00 AU for that copy of Red Hat and it had everything that I needed and then some unlike the Windows OEM XP Pro costing me $240.00 + and then Office XP Pro somewhere around the $450.00 AU mark for the Wholesale OEM’s. Red Hat 9 certainly had a lot more and made it seem not worth the effort in paying for the OEM MS stuff and then having to install it. About the only difference that the end user will see is that they have to type in their Name and then a Password to get the OS to open. Then besides having the 4 available Desktops it looks just like a XP install with the Start Bar in the same place and the Menu system laid out like a Classic Windows View.

          Col

    • #3152724

      … I love winning free reboots from Microsoft

      by runmyowncompany ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      … I love winning free reboots from Microsoft

      bonus awards: free checkdisk!!!

      • #3152693
        Avatar photo

        I find that every time that I get the Free CHKDSK

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to … I love winning free reboots from Microsoft

        The computer has a corupted HDD on the Boot drive. Makes it nasty when you leave something running 24/7 and come in one morning and find that this has happened even though you have a UPS that will keep it running for 3 hours.

        But I got the best Error Message that I’ve ever seen last night I almost died laughing it read [b]Something Bad Has Happened[/b] I kid you not that’s exactly as it appeared on the screen and then rebooted. If I wasn’t laughing quite so Hard I could have just grabbed a Screen Dump before it restarted and as there are no error messages in the LOG I’m just going to have to wait for it to happen again so I can get a copy. 🙁

        Col ]:)

        • #3157952

          Me too

          by jamas ·

          In reply to I find that every time that I get the Free CHKDSK

          I got that one once. I was trying to get our programmer in to see it, he was down the hall, when it rebooted. He still doesn’t belive me, he thinks it was a critical error. What I love most about windows are those endless variations of BSOD. It almost makes it fun to use.

    • #3152626

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by amnezia ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      It didn’t detect my video or IBM Raid hardware: Windows did – immediately. But then, this is the first time I’ve tried to use any version of Linux – I’ve been using installing and using Windows since Version 2.0: successfully.

    • #3153926

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by howards ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t use Linux because, I’ve been absorbed by the Borg (Microsoft) into the hivemind.

    • #3153886
      Avatar photo

      OK I’ll be serrious this time

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t use Linux Because

      [b]It’s way too easy & I need a challange.[/b]

      Col ]:)

    • #3153782

      I want to keep my network from my lawyers

      by tigerbright ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Who needs the hassle of having to justify to your corporate lawyers about your use of Linux and SCO lawsuits from long ago ? I don’t need to write 15 more white papers and business case analyses to justify Linux use.

    • #3153740

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by ajole ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      It is too hard to install Apps without learning bunches.

      Whew, made it in ten. I actually DO use Linux, but not enough to learn it well. Which means I always get stuck trying to take it beyond Mahjongg, browsing and text editing.

    • #3153732

      I don’t use Linux because I use unix.

      by smithtt ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Linux is great, for many areas in the enterprise and provides stability for CIO’s and CFO’s willing to risk the initial naysayers ridicule. My belief is for server side you can not beat linux for TCO. Slowly many IT managers are listening to the advice the professional working for them provide.

      However I use unix as my prefered desktop not linux, I feel that linux is really more directed toward the next generation of server platform and beyond, than the desktop.

      FreeBSD –
      http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39268549,00.htm

    • #3151898

      because…I have been brainwashed by Microsoft

      by scott ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Actually, I do use a few different flavors of Linux. Ubuntu, CentOS, etc. I mainly use windows because that?s what we use at here at work. However, I use all sorts of distro’s to complete my day to day activities, which includes a lot of image installs.

    • #3151875

      I dont need to run a comp one binary at a time

      by sangraal ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      constantly editing configs and fighting with inferior drivers. And to those of you with a backlash. Yeah, it would be real fun to have to write a driver for everything I use or change etc…

      • #3151728

        it is obvious

        by jaqui ·

        In reply to I dont need to run a comp one binary at a time

        you have never looked at it.
        Your comment shows that clearly, it is so full of complete gargbage it can’t have been written by someone who has ever taken a look at it.

        quit reading the microsoft advertisements and start reading what you screen displays when you investigate for yourself. Or are you to scared to think for yourself and use it, for 6 moths before opening your mouth and sticking both feet in?

    • #3151855

      World Government

      by andy goss ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      “I don’t use Linux because…”
      M$ is the best bet to create a World Government!

      Bill Gates is a really nice guy who cares about the world and wants to banish poverty and suffering. He would make a great World President, using Windoze all the time would be a small price to pay for global harmony.
      Ummm …
      But then he gets usurped by Steve Ballmer and we are really in the poo.
      Where’s that Ubuntu CD?

    • #3151787

      you took the easy one

      by scouterdude ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I’d change ‘because’ to ‘yet’. It’s just a matter of time for me.
      Many of our servers will be migrating to linux in the next few years. And I’m learning what linux could be on the desktop, as an alternative.
      Unlike others, I DO have an axe to grind with MS. Just really ticks me off for them to charge what they do for crapware. I’m not averse to capitalism, it’s just their level of greediness, and all the barely-legal behaviours they use in contracts, etc to spread themselves.
      Much of the fault does lie with the users, but that’s getting into a whole other topic, and I think I’m over my 10.

    • #3151745

      My Reasons

      by rkuhn040172 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t use Linux because it isn’t Windows.

      There, I said it.

      I have a nice job, decent living, good job security, work for a great company, enjoy what I do, and am darn good at it.

      Why change any of that? Why spend my time learning something that I wouldn’t use at work to make more money when I can spend that same time learning more about a company’s products (Microsoft) that I do get paid to use?

      It’s kind of like learning another language. Sure, there are a lot of reasons to learn a particular language.

      But if you are going for bang for your buck, learn English or Spanish or Chinese. Those are the languages that make the world go round and are spoken by the most people.

      When I start seeing more jobs requiring Linux skills in the newspaper, I’ll take note. But for now, if I were to need to change jobs, I would want more Microsoft knowledage not less.

      I would want to know more about the products that are used in the most number of places and not the products that are used in the fewest number of places.

      Now, to be fair, that includes knowledge of some non-Microsoft products like Apache.

      But I’m in this for the money and Linux isn’t paying my bills and keeping the lights on or putting food on the table.

      Linux, for me, is just a toy or a curiousity. Again, to be fair, I’m sure it does pay the bills for others. Just not me.

      But the whole point here is choice is good. I’ve made my choices and you’ve made yours.

      • #3151723

        Okay . . . to a point.

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to My Reasons

        You had me up to the point where . . . well, the point where you lost me. Let’s see here:

        “[i]I would want to know more about the products that are used in the most number of places and not the products that are used in the fewest number of places.[/i]”
        Being used on fewer corporate desktops than MS Windows doesn’t constitute being “used in the fewest number of places”. Your point here is made, though — you work with networks that involve a lot of desktop computers that you have to support, at least indirectly, and your career is focused in that area. Windows still holds the lion’s share of the market in that area. Thus, what you say makes sense, with the exception of the unfortunate use of the word “fewest”.

        All in all, this is the single most reasonable thing I’ve ever seen you say. Kudos. I’ll just assume “fewest” was hyperbole or a typo.

      • #3153016

        When I 1st Learnt Linux

        by jerome.koch ·

        In reply to My Reasons

        and made the mistake of asking a question on an IRC Channel(cannot repeat what they said), I vowed I would never learn it. That was 7 years ago.

        Use Linux (SuSe) at home- not at work (Windoze, Netware). Would never reccomend Linux to novice again (most had no intention of learning it).

        I will puke the next time I hear a Linux begin a sentence with:

        “Real Network Admins….”

        • #3154323

          now that’s funny

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to When I 1st Learnt Linux

          It’s hard to believe someone is blaming Linux for bad attitudes in IRC. That’s like blaming the Ford Motor Company when the mechanics at your local Brakes-R-Us are surly.

    • #3151681

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by jfmarten3 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      OBSD,(Open BSD),is the most secure operating system on the planet.

      • #3151632

        Yeah . . .

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because…

        That’s why I’d use OpenBSD for a router/firewall and certain other purposes, though for desktop and laptop systems I still use Debian.

    • #3160978

      My lips move when I am reading.

      by sleepin’dawg ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Not enough apps available to run natively on linux.

      • #3160939

        How many is enough?

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to My lips move when I am reading.

        [b]$ apt-cache stats
        Total package names : 22215 (889k)
        Normal packages: 17021
        Pure virtual packages: 261
        Single virtual packages: 1138
        Mixed virtual packages: 162[/b]

        Gee willickers. That’s more than 22,000 packages available via a quick shell command or a couple clicks in a GUI application (namely, Synaptic). How many applications do you have available within, say, a week’s time on Windows? Keep in mind that every single one of those software packages is a few minutes away from installation for me.

        • #3160794

          Well, There Is…

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to How many is enough?

          A thing that was invented called the internet that allows me to download probably just as many programs for free as you.

          And probably just as many of mine are just as crappy as those of ours.

          I mean really, how many of those 22,000 are really worth having?

          You throw around that 22,000 number all the time like some holy grail, yet really, how many do people really use?

          I’d love a study of how many programs are used by the public at large. I’d bet that the top 100 programs or so would fulfill 99% of the publics needs.

          I’m not against choice, don’t get me wrong. But you are abusing statistics badly, you should become a politician.

        • #3160225

          a few details

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Well, There Is…

          1. With the Debian software archives, I don’t have to do exhaustive Google searches to find applications. Your implication that you have just as much software just as readily available for Windows doesn’t hold water.

          2. A great many of those 22,000 are worth having, and people use a heckuva lot of them. There are raytracers, video editing applications, network monitoring utilities, office productivity suites, integrated development environments, enterprise-class antivirus systems, GUI environments, games, (spoken/written) language learning tools, webservers, encryption schemes, mail clients and mail user agents, calendaring applications and servers, mail servers, proxy servers, hardware diagnostic utlities, web browsers, desktop publishing applications, music players, music servers, video players, image editing applications, IM clients, ripping/burning applications, videoconferencing applications, VoIP applications, VoIP PBX systems, firewall wizards, intrusion detection systems, packet sniffers, filesharing clients and servers, fax servers, Windows Remote Desktop clients as well as other remote management tools, network filesystem servers and clients (including Samba for SMB/CIFS compatibility), file browsers, automated backup systems of all descriptions, version control systems, distributed computing clients and servers (for things like SETI@Home), compression tools, postscript authoring/viewing/translation tools, PDF authoring/viewing/translation tools, encryption/decryption tools, text recognition tools, partition managers, disk imaging software, netboot and netinstall software, alarm clock programs, data recovery tools, forensic analysis tools, Palm sync applications, iPod tools, sound creation and editing software, tools for translating video into ASCII animation (yes, really), Flash authoring and viewing software, database management systems, CAD/CAM softare, DOS and Windows emulation software, virtual server software, game console emulators, and many more useful pieces of software.

        • #3160111

          Ok, So…

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to a few details

          1. “exhaustive Google searches”

          You know what each and every of the 22,000 software titles does, what it is for, what it’s dependencies are, etc?

          Or do you have to Google that? If you do know about all 22,000, here, let me drop a box of tooth picks and you count them for me.

          I don’t want just a repository of software. I want a list containing descriptions, rankings, user feedback, reviews, # of downloads, update info, who wrote it, history, etc.

          Your list doesn’t provide all of that. I don’t blindly download, install and use software without some investigation including testing first.

          So, I guess Googling is necessary after all.

          2. Thanks for the vast wasted space of this. Was that a cut and paste?

          However, most of the 22,000 titles would include software that 99% of the population will/would never use.

          Just how many words are in the English language? How many do you use in a given day?

          Just how many office apps do we need? How many variations of mail clients do we need?

          Does standardization mean anything to you? And I’m not just talking about software standards and file formats.

          I’m talking about end user training, whether or not the person or organization who wrote the software will be around 5 years from now, will they be supporting and updating the product 5 years from now, etc.

          I don’t put alot of faith in a person or organization that I’ve never heard of to use their software for anything mission critical.

        • #3160104

          software availability, ease of access, and trust

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Ok, So…

          “[i]You know what each and every of the 22,000 software titles does, what it is for, what it’s dependencies are, etc?[/i]”
          I don’t have them all memorized, but finding out about any of them is a single command or a couple mouse-clicks away (depending on the interface you prefer for the package manager). For instance:

          [b]$ apt-cache show aterm
          Package: aterm
          Priority: optional
          Section: x11
          Installed-Size: 228
          Maintainer: G??ran Weinholt
          Architecture: i386
          Version: 1.0.0-2
          Provides: x-terminal-emulator
          Depends: libc6 (>= 2.3.5-1), libx11-6
          Conflicts: suidmanager (<< 0.50) Filename: pool/main/a/aterm/aterm_1.0.0-2_i386.deb Size: 84430 MD5sum: 02b690718538090f58aadfc96ff499a8 Description: Afterstep XVT - a VT102 emulator for the X window system Aterm is a colour vt102 terminal emulator, based on rxvt 2.4.8 with some additions of fast transparency, intended as an xterm replacement for users who do not require features such as Tektronix 4014 emulation and toolkit-style configurability. As a result, aterm uses much less swap space -- a significant advantage on a machine serving many X sessions. It was created with AfterStep Window Manager users in mind, but is not tied to any libraries, and can be used anywhere. Tag: interface::x11, made-of::lang:c, role::sw:utility, x11::terminal[/b] "[i]Or do you have to Google that?[/i]" I let computers do my grunt work for me, thank you. Of course, I use an operating system that is actually capable of doing that sort of grunt work for me, so I don't have to count toothpicks (or, in this case, search Google). So . . . neither. I didn't have that information memorized, and I didn't have to search Google. In fact, you might notice that the description of the software package gives me an email address for direct contact of the package maintainer if I need help with something, it tells me the size of the package (in bytes), and it even gives me an MD5 checksum that is used when I do an install to ensure that the download isn't corrupted or compromised! Pretty nice. How did I ever live without this back when I was Windows-centric like you? "[i]So, I guess Googling is necessary after all.[/i]" Not really. "[i]2. Thanks for the vast wasted space of this. Was that a cut and paste?[/i]" Nope, that was off the top of my head. I'm an IT professional in the broadest sense of the term -- I do a little of everything. As a result, I tend to know quite a bit about a very wide range of subjects, including the sorts of software available. I just started thinking of types of software I know to exist and listed them, double-checking the Debian package archives to ensure that there were several available options for each type (when I wasn't already aware of several) before listing it so that I could be sure I wouldn't inadvertently lie. For the record, I didn't fail to find examples for a single software type that sprang to mind. "[i]However, most of the 22,000 titles would include software that 99% of the population will/would never use.[/i]" Of course. 99% of the population probably directly uses about two dozen software categories total -- all of which are well represented in the Debian archive. The comment to which I responded with the 22,000+ packages statistic related to the availability of applications, though, and as such my commentary was quite relevant, and made my point nicely. "[i]Just how many words are in the English language? How many do you use in a given day?[/i]" I don't happen to know how many there are, off the top of my head, but I use more of them in a given day than many native English speakers even know. So what? "[i]Just how many office apps do we need? How many variations of mail clients do we need?[/i]" We need enough so that everyone gets what they want. I use Mutt. I have a good friend that uses Pine. You'd probably prefer Thunderbird or Evolution, if you were gutsy enough to give Linux a serious workout for a few months rather than poking at it timidly and declaring it "too hard". You'd scream bloody murder if I made you use Mutt, though, and my Pine-using friend and I definitely disagree about whether Mutt or Pine is the better mail user agent. If we ended up with only three email clients or mail user agents available to us, though, you can bet money that at least one of Evolution, Mutt, Pine, and Thunderbird wouldn't make the cut -- in which case a lot of people would be quite upset. Q: How many do we need? A: Enough so everyone's happy with what they use. "[i]I'm talking about end user training, whether or not the person or organization who wrote the software will be around 5 years from now, will they be supporting and updating the product 5 years from now, etc.[/i]" So standardize your organization on one email client, and let me standardize mine on another. As for who's supporting a piece of software, you seem to suffer some misunderstanding of how things work in the open source software world: as long as it's still in demand, a piece of open source software is supported. It's really that simple. Many are even supported when they aren't in demand. Unlike with proprietary software, something doesn't stop getting supported when its vendor goes under or changes its business tactics. The software is open and free, which means that when one person drops the ball another has the option of picking it up -- and you might be surprised at the number of very competent people looking for a ball to pick up. "[i]I don't put alot of faith in a person or organization that I've never heard of to use their software for anything mission critical.[/i]" You clearly hear about people and organizations in a different manner than I do. I'm quite familiar with many of the organizations and individuals who develop and maintain the software I use. I've had personal conversations with open source software developers who work on software I use daily. I can't say the same thing about MS Office developers, and I sure as hell don't trust Sony's software. I think you're basing trust on the wrong criteria.

        • #3161170

          And the funny thing is…

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to a few details

          … that’s just off the top of Apotheon’s head.

          But in addition to all the things you can download, there are plenty of things that you don’t have to. There are things that any standard distro with a typical install comes with OOTB that you have to find and/or buy to have available on the Windows platform. And if a certain app only does 99% of what you want, chances you can add it yourself since you have or can get the source code to give you that power. Try doing that with a binary, which is all that closed-source (read: most Windows) apps give you.

        • #3147051

          Oh Please!

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to And the funny thing is…

          99.9% of the world never looks at source code.

          That is another old, worn out Linux argument.

          Good for those that do, but please, such a small percentage of the population takes advantage of that “feature” that I would hardly call it an advantage.

        • #3147021
          Avatar photo

          Well in that case if you’re correct

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Oh Please!

          That 99.9% of the world doesn’t bother with looking at the Source Code why is it then that you claim that this is a weakness with Open Source?

          By being able to look at the Source Code that gives the [b]Script Kiddies[/b] an unfair advantage on how to break things while they seem to be doing a pretty fair job of it with Windows while being unable to actually look at the Source Code. :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3146987

          I Don’t Ever Recall

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Oh Please!

          Saying that having the source code open is a weakness to Linux.

          I merely stated that having open code is not the huge strength that some make it out to be.

          Others have said it, but not I.

          I prefer to leave that portion of the debate to the same people who like to argue about religion…there is no right answer.

          I prefer to reserve my comments to both the technical and real world areas.

          Some Linux myths:

          1) It’s free…no, not in total costs allocated
          2) It’s open source…so, who ever looks at it
          3) It’s more secure…depends on too many other factors
          4) It’s user friendly…BS, not when the world is used to Windows already
          5) It installs faster…marginally so, not a major concern
          6) It’s less bloated…and growing everyday

          Just a few examples.

        • #3146387

          It’s a bit like trickle-down economics:

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Oh Please!

          Average end users reap the benefits of highly technical users having unfettered access to the source code.

        • #3146970

          Is the importance of having the code overstated?

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to And the funny thing is…

          One of the oft-celebrated features of open source software is access to the source code. I wonder if that is over-emphasised in “The Great Debate ™”. Sure, it’s great to have the code if you are interested in changing the program and have the skills to do it; I’m not knocking that at all. I just wonder what percentage of open source users ever look at the code. An option that is ignored by the majority of the users isn’t automatically unimportant, but it may not be a good selling point.

        • #3146912

          It isn’t just looking at it…

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Is the importance of having the code overstated?

          By having access to the source you have access to compile time options so you can create a leaner binary with only the options that are important to execution on your platform.

          MS has taken the one-size-fits-most path where everything gets compiled in and enabled or disabled by run-time configuration. Sure, you can do this with Linux as well but you can’t recompile Windows leaving out certain features that you don’t want… like the GUI.

          It is very important when you need it but probably not of any importance at all to casual and cookie-cutter users.

          There are other “non-code inspection” reasons as well but many are rather esoteric.

        • #3146832

          I Like The Question

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Is the importance of having the code overstated?

          If such a small percentage of users actually take advantage of a “feature”, is it really a “feature”?

          To some, absolutely yes. To most, absolutely no.

          Linux has a lot of better selling points to talk about than open source code. However, that one seems to get mentioned the most.

          And the same could be said of most other software too. To pick on MS Office, do we really need a $300 office suite with features that 99% of the population doesn’t even know exists?

          Where I work, we are thinking about getting rid of MS Office for our remote construction sites and just giving them the Office readers.

          Any data entry they do is in the form of a fax or a Palm handheld anyways.

          But it’s not just MS Office. Most all software is bloated beyond belief…closed source and open source…Microsoft or Linux.

        • #3146410

          Selling point.

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Is the importance of having the code overstated?

          I bought SCO Xenix which cost about $4500.00 for a five user license. This is before windows 3.1. I had a gui based X on openserver 5 at the time of Windows 95. It was more stable, but it cost about 2500.00.

          I now use ‘iX based servers at home and work. I live in Xwindows not because I hate windows… Now wait, I hate windows. It is because I may have to reboot a server once every 6 months, wait I have one going on 3 years… It is because it only costs me $397.00 a seat license for XP. and I just love giving money to Gates…

          The reason I don’t use Linux is I have Solaris and HPUX instead at my house…

        • #3146383

          the importance of source code freedom

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Is the importance of having the code overstated?

          The reason that importance seems overblown is that most of the time people don’t bother to notice how things are interconnected and interdependent. The continued low (free) cost of open source software is dependent on its source code being free. The continued increased security of open source software is dependent on its source code being free. The relative immortality of open source software (which never vanishes just because some executive decides it’s a good business strategy to make that happen) is dependent on its source code being free.

          Pretty much every benefit of open source software is a direct result of the source code being free. That’s why it keeps being brought up. Example:

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5100-10877_11-6064734.html

        • #3146336

          daveo2002 and apotheon, I’m talking “small picture”.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Is the importance of having the code overstated?

          I agree with everything you say, but that’s a “big picture” view. I raise the question strictly as a response to nighthawk808’s comment.

          “And if a certain app only does 99% of what you want, chances you can add it yourself since you have or can get the source code to give you that power.”

          I wonder what percentage of OSS users lack the skills to change the code and therefore don’t see having it as an advantage to them personally. Assuming OSS is adopted at an increasing rate outside the tech community, the number of users without programming skills will increase as a percentage of total users. These users will hopefully appreciate the open source model that makes their apps possible, but they may regard having the raw code on their individual machines as a waste of drive space. I would.

        • #3146249

          Apotheon, a small question.

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to Is the importance of having the code overstated?

          Who is this Chad Perrin guy? Never heard of him. How do I know that he has clue one? Is he smarter than you? He writes a lot like you; maybe you guys should get together and have a beer sometime. You might have a few things in common. 😉

        • #3146209

          Har de har har.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Is the importance of having the code overstated?

          Very funny, nighthawk808. I suppose you’ve looked at my profile recently (and seen the name listed there).

        • #3146205

          Old news to me, apotheon.

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to Is the importance of having the code overstated?

          I’ve known that for quite a while now. I discovered it by downloading some guide (I really can’t remember which one). The name of it was something like “apotheon-linux.pdf”, yet its author was Chad Perrin. I put 2 and 2 together and ended up with 4.00000001, which is close enough by IEEE 754’s standards.

          Every once in a while I think it’s a good idea to make the connection between the two, so our new friends (hi guys!) or those who didn’t know for some other reason can realize that you’re not just someone who hangs around the discussions all day and has never done anything else with his life.

        • #3146185

          Small picture benefits from big picture too

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Is the importance of having the code overstated?

          There are many users (don’t know stats on that) that don’t read source code but do interact in user groups. They make suggestions that somebody that does read source code likes.

          The point you make is very worthy of note in the sense that the marketing is missing the point that it should deliver. Most users really won’t want to “look” at the source and, in fact, won’t have the source on their machines at all.

          You don’t actually need the full source on your disk. If you aren’t making changes you will only need header files (.h). These allow other programs to see the functions that are in a compiled library (which other apps need) without needing access to the source of the actual functions. Windows liked this feature to so they came up with DLLs (dynamic link library) to mimick Unix .so files (shared object). I don’t know if Win also mimicked .a files (archive) which are static link libraries.

          How should the marketing be changed? Apotheon makes the points over and over but, in most cases, with too many words to catch the attention of the public you speak of. We could use a better catch phrase that speaks to the underlying benefits but geared more to sound bytes 🙂 .

        • #3155962

          I just realized something.

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to Is the importance of having the code overstated?

          In my profile, I’ve had the answer to question of the importance of access to the source for a while now. To Apotheontificate (IOW, to quote myself shamelessly 🙂 ):

          “An interesting piece of trivia: I am the only person I know who beat Rogue the first time they played it. Ask me how. Or, if you noticed the fact from above that I’m a C programmer, you have probably figured it out already. (Open Source isn’t just a beautiful idea, it’s a useful one, too!)”

          Now, all you “I can’t play any good games on Linux” people: let’s see you do that with Sims 2/WoW/Oblivion/[insert favorite “Windows-only” game here]!

          It’s amazing what a difference one character can make. Out of thousands of lines of code, all it took was a change from “rogue.hp_current -= d;” to “rogue.hp_current += d;” and I started looking FORWARD to running into dragons. There’s nothing like seeing a status line that contains “Hp: 147(42)”. And there you have the power of OSS.

          And that’s also why I don’t trust a closed-source Diebold voting machine any further than I can throw it. The same goes for Vista’s new DRM “enhancements”.

          “Of course your vote counted!”
          “Of course no information about the CD’s you play is collected and sent to the RIAA!”
          “What do you mean you want to see the source? We would never do anything unethical!* Trust us–we would never lie to you….”

          *Offer not valid in the US, Canada, or countries whose names contain a vowel. See your participating dealer for details.

        • #3160764

          what’s an app?

          by notoriousdog ·

          In reply to How many is enough?

          It’s possible he doesn’t know/doesn’t believe OpenOffice is a suitable M$ Office replacement. Or maybe he’s a gamer.

          Or maybe, like me, he does most of his work in Adobe/Macromedia products. I dream of a Photoshop (NO, gimp and imagemagik are not a suitable replacements) and Flash linux port. Ironic – PS started as a UNIX file translation app, and now OS X is BSD based – but still no Linux port.

        • #3160234

          *sigh* Cedega

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to what’s an app?

          native games in linux yadda yadda neverwinter nights yadda yadda RtCW: ET yadda yadda

          Playing Windows games, yadda yadda http://www.transgaming.com yadda yadda http://www.transgaming.org yadda yadda http://www.transgaming.org/gamesdb yadda yadda

          How many times do I have to post this?

        • #3160213

          I’m asking the same question.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to *sigh* Cedega

          You must have posted this at least four times in this discussion alone. I don’t run Linux and even I know it by now. I guess this discussion is so large that the newer participants are not reading the earlier postings.

          You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink when his head’s up his @$$.

          EDITED: On the other hand, the ability to run a Windows app under Linux is not a reason to switch OSs; it’s just not a reason not to.

        • #3160224

          Photoshop?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to what’s an app?

          Have you looked into GIMPshop? It’s a version of the GIMP that has been made to act like Photoshop for people afraid to try a new interface for the same tasks.

          By the way, there are Flash authoring tools for Linux.

    • #3160897

      … most staff have pirate copies of MS office at home.

      by a_fairb ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      … most staff have pirate copies of MS office at home.

      Untill they can be weaned off their dependancy or MS office can be run reliably and simply on a linux desktop nothing will change. MS are not fool enough to prosecute home users for illegal software when their needs drive business decisions. The prospect of changing to an alternative is too painfull to contemplate for most SMEs. I’ve tried it. It hurt. For the record I’m an Open Office user by choice and on principle.

      • #3160066

        Product Activation?

        by andy goss ·

        In reply to … most staff have pirate copies of MS office at home.

        M$ captured the desktop partly by accident – DOS and Windows 3.1 were so easy to copy from friends. The last M$ software I bought was Office 97, my son needed it for schoolwork, and it ended up on four PCs around the house. We all use Open Office these days, on Linux and Windows, and I don’t think that kind of multiple use will be possible with “product activation”. In maximising their returns, software vendors are making open source look attractive – it is cheaper, easier to install, and does the job as well or better. Why pay for an illegal pirated M$ Office when you can get a legal Open Office for nothing?

        • #3160671

          Product activation no obstacle.

          by a_fairb ·

          In reply to Product Activation?

          My experience of fixing friend of friends PCs is that they tend to have pirate copies of office. Often taken from a corporate copy or a pre-install disk where product activation has been bypassed or pre-set. When I refuse to re-load pirate software and offer OO.org as an alternative I am looked at as if I had grown a second head and the user generally goes back down the pub for a pirate copy of MS office.

    • #3160837

      Getting Things Done

      by 0ldan ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I used to use Linux a lot. And OpenBSD and FreeBSD.
      But then I started doing more work on video and audio – capturing, viewing, listening, combining, creating.

      All the tools I need are easy to find for Windows (hard to find for Linux), easy to use on Windows (hard to use on Linux), easy to install and configure on Windows (hard… well, you get the idea).

      When I want to play with an opeating system, I use Linux. When I want to get some other “real” work done, I use Windows. *sigh* I don’t feel good about it. But I do it.

    • #3160762

      configuration is too tough

      by dangi ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      …configuring it is too tough.

      For those of you saying “wimp” or “Lazy”, just try configuring a DCHP and DNS server in Windows Server 2003 and then try Linux. It takes about 1/3 the time and 1/10 the effort.

      Then try installing an app in Windows, then in Linux. Also, about 1/3 the time and about 1/10 the effort.

      Now, when I’m trying to keep 230 users running as part of a 3 man team, I’d rather have something take 1/3 the time and 1/10 the effort rather than something that ‘sticks it to the man’. In this case, as with any case I have seen, Windows is far superior to Linux. There are likely more security holes in Linux, but they haven’t been found because so few people, and none of consequence, use it.

      • #3160710

        FUD, lies, and more FUD

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to configuration is too tough

        Please prove your post.

        Wait…lemme setup dhcp on my Fedora box…hold on…oh here we go:
        # service dhcpd start
        DONE!

        Setting up DNS through webmin or the GUI tool is just as easy as editing the config file…It took me a long time to setup zones on Windows because I have to friggin’ click everywhere. Plus I have to click and type multiple times for every new zone. Ya, that’s efficient.

        Installing an app in Linux:
        # yum install abiword

        Installing an app in Windows:
        1) dig for CD
        2) insert CD, wait for autoplay
        3) autoplay fails and you have to manually click on the setup.exe
        4) click next about 50 times
        5) restart your machine
        6) find out you need to download patches
        7) install patches
        8) restart

        Ya, super efficent system there. Good call.

        The security though obscurity argument is bunk so I’m not even going to address it. As for the rest of the mess of your post: IT IS EASIER TO MAINTAIN THAN WINDOWS.

        Welcome to reality!

        • #3160647

          Bad Comparison

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to FUD, lies, and more FUD

          1) Comparing a YUM install to a CD install isn’t fair. How about a zdnet.com install or cnet.com install vs YUM. Can eliminate steps 1, 2, 3, and usually 5, 6, 7, 8.

          3) Autoplay doesn’t fail all that often and is usually the manufacturer of the CD’s fault not Windows. Is the following too hard?:

          [autorun]
          open=setup.exe
          icon= icon.ico

          4) Most programs install with maybe 5-10 mouse clicks if you just choose the defaults.

          5) Most programs don’t require a reboot

          6) Most programs downloaded on-line will already be fully patched. If you have a Linux program on a CD, it won’t be fully patched either.

          8) Most updates don’t require a reboot.

        • #3146630

          Unfortunately…

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Bad Comparison

          many of these discussions come down to specific cases. And we can all provide anecdotal evidence for any position on just about any platform. (Although I have yet to hear anyone sticking up for CP/M for a production application.)

          Once Linux has a standardized desktop (finally there has been an agreement 🙂 ) and when vendors are free to provide the same software to both MS and Linux (without OS provider interference) we will have a chance to make real comparisons on a lot more choices.

          For now, can somebody reply on installing OpenOffice 2.0 on multiple platforms?

        • #3158968

          indeed

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to FUD, lies, and more FUD

          Even when autoplay works (I give it about a 60% chance, in my experience), it takes as long to insert the CD and wait for the pretty little dialog to appear as it does to install the software on a Linux machine. People just seem incapable of grasping the fact that in a worst-case scenario (such as: you’re a clueless newbie that knows nothing and has to use a GUI tool like Synaptic) installing a new program is as simple as clicking on its name in Add/Remove Programs (to relate it to a Windows example) — except that, unlike Add/Remove Programs, Synaptic gives you access to 22,000 software packages, not just two built-in things and a list of things already installed.

      • #3146180

        I’ll take that challenge.

        by nighthawk808 ·

        In reply to configuration is too tough

        The time is now 04:58:08. The OS is openSuSE 10.1. Package selection at install was custom, which means no server packages were installed. I’ll have to install them, which is a one-time thing.

        Start.
        04:59:11 – Installing package dhcp-server. This consists of inserting CD 4 and clicking OK. YaST can do the rest on its own.
        05:00:32 – Going for coffee. BRB.
        05:07:13 – Back with coffee. Package installed. Starting configuration.
        05:11:56 – Finished configuration. Starting testing.
        05:15:52 – Finished testing. Works fine.
        Stop.

        And this is the first time I’ve ever configured a DHCP server from scratch.

        Now, DNS server:
        The time is 05:18:38.
        Start.
        05:19:19 – Installing bind package. Same as the other install: insert CD, click OK, receive banana.
        05:21:14 – Package installed. Starting configuration.
        05:23:52 – Finished configuration. Starting testing.
        05:30:46 – Finished testing. Works fine.
        Stop.

        And, as above, this is the first time I’ve ever set up a DNS server from scratch.

        “…none of consequence use [Linux].” Besides Google, many major (i.e., multi-national) banks, and a large percentage of investment firms. But what’s a few hundred billion dollars of stock value among friends?

        Have a good day, troll.

    • #3160742

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by ewischmann ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Occam’s razor
      “entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem”

    • #3160297

      we use windows everything at work

      by grouper1 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      BUT I still run FC5 at home. I’m switching to Suse 10.1 in a week or 2. Even though i’m more interested in unix/linux administration, I have a little box I run win2003 server on at home just because I cant escape it. I also run solaris 10 and osx at home too.. yeh I have way too many computers at home.

      I also take in my ubuntu livecd with me to work whenever I wanna tinker around with my machine.

    • #3160272

      Time

      by cweb ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I prefer to spend my time working and not configuring.

      • #3160080
        Avatar photo

        Time

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Time

        I prefer to spend my time configuring the unit properly so that I will not need to waste much more time latter down the track when the end user breaks it.

        Be that a MS or Nix product the end result is always the same but I honestly pick up far more work because of Lazy IT Staff who install Windows and leave it set as an Out Of The Box installation and I then get paid quite a lot to clean it out and lock it down. But I know that I’ll be back in 1 moth when the next round of MS Patches come out to do it all over again. Working with Windows is like hitting your head against a Brick Wall it only feels good when you STOP!

        Col

        • #3160639

          Are Aussie patches different from U.S.?

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Time

          ” … I’ll be back in 1 moth when the next round of MS Patches come out to do it all over again.”

          I’ve only had to roll back three patches in ten years of working with five desktop and three server versions of Windows; two I rolled back were optional hardware drivers. I don’t roll out service packs until they’ve been out for a few months, preferring to let others be the guinea pigs. Are they what you mean?

        • #3160559
          Avatar photo

          As all the patches come off the same server

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Are Aussie patches different from U.S.?

          I would tens to think that they are ll the same. As for needing only to roll back a couple of patches across all of the Windows Products you obviously never hit that Java one for 98 did you. 😀

          It only caused the death of all external Drives, and SCSI Connected Drives and Network connection.

          Currently there are some Security Patches going around disabling Some USB Ports or devices and now they are starting to affect unimportant things like Printers which tend to hurt slightly.

          I’ll be attending a MS Meeting on the 22 ND all day and no doubt I’ll be told all about how great Vista is be shown some pretty screen shots and then told that the release date is still in Limbo as there have been some unestimated problems with a 3rd party supper so the production date has been put back again. But I’ll get to spend a few hours with Bill at the bar nd over a few drinks we’ll both have a few laughs.

          Col

        • #3160507

          You’re correct.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to As all the patches come off the same server

          ” … you obviously never hit that Java one for 98 … ”

          Right. We didn’t have any 98 boxes so I didn’t even see that one.

          “there are some Security Patches going around disabling Some USB Ports or devices and now they are starting to affect unimportant things like Printers”

          We don’t have a lot of USB devices and all of our printers are networked, so I’m not seeing those either. I know we’re working in two completely different environments; apparently they’re more different than I thought.

          When you’re at the bar with Bill, please ask him if there was any technical reason he had to integrate the browser with the OS, or was it strictly a business move.

        • #3158852
          Avatar photo

          Wrong Bill

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to You’re correct.

          The Bill that I’m talking about is Bill O’Shea the MS Head Tech here in AU who is a good little company boy some of the time anyway till he gets with me and a few drinks latter. Well enough said. :^0

          I have a direct line to him now as I get some of the nasty ones to play with generally without a known solution so I get to fight my way through the problem and find a work around and then ring Bill up and tell him what’s going wrong. The last time was with SP2 on a new P4 that was at best suspect from the maker but it had the MBR’s destroyed when SP2 was applied and there was no reason according to MS why this was happening. It’s a really nice feeling to apply something as big as SP2 and see everything go smoothly and then on the reboot be faced with a screen telling you there is no Boot Device Available/Found or whatever it said. Of course the C Drive was blank as the MBR’s had been erased by installing SP2. Wasn’t my idea of fun that one but it had to be fixed and I eventually traced it back to a Samsung DVD Player being the problem. Of course I had by that time disconnected the DVD Burner as being the possible culprit and didn’t think about the Reader and even when I asked MS Technical Support about it they said it wouldn’t affect the install. Apparently it did and when I disconnected it and reconnected the Burner it worked perfectly well at least until I reconnected the Reader and then everything went to Hell in a Hand basket again.

          I think that part of the employment agreements at MS is that if you don’t already have a Christian Name of William you have to change it by De pol to get employed at MS. 😀

          Col

        • #3158754

          Is it Just Me…

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Wrong Bill

          Or is Hal losing it?

          His posts are getting harder and harder to read. He rambles on and on. I’m thinking he’s drunk half of the time.

          This dude has issues. I find myself having to read and re-read his posts over and over just to figure out what the heck he’s trying to say.

        • #3158734

          It’s just you.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Wrong Bill

          He’s always been like that. Smart guy, though.

        • #3160036

          Yep, just you

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Wrong Bill

          While HAL’s punctuation and sentence structure sometimes are a bit below standard, he’s no worse than most of the key-manglers around here. I have to remind myself he’s coming from a different background, both culturally and professionally. If his postings occasionally require a couple of readings to get his point, I usually find him to be worth the trouble.

        • #3146922

          Learn some respect, Rickk

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Wrong Bill

          Personally, I find the first reading of HAL’s posts a bit difficult too. I can’t help it but I get distracted by misspelt words and run-on sentences no matter who writes them. (And HAL is by no means amongst the worst.)

          However, there always seems to be more meat or good will in one of his paragraphs than in your collective rants in a given thread.

          Why is that?

        • #3146196

          Rickk, aren’t you the bookworm?

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to Wrong Bill

          Didn’t you bring up _Of Mice and Men_ earlier? Hal’s posts are no more difficult to read than Faulkner, and a whole lot more coherent. He has his style, you have your style, I have my style, ad infinitum, and it’s good that way.

      • #3160055

        time wisely spent

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to Time

        I prefer to spend my time working and not maintaining.

    • #3160054

      Answer

      by bfilmfan ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      It doesn’t play X-Box Games like Darkwatch or HALO 3.

    • #3160735

      i don’t use linux because

      by bluron ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      after confirmation with pro it does not meet my needs.

    • #3160024

      I don’t want that much choice

      by bigdave506 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      When I use Linux I am presented with a vast array of software, editors, window managers, clients for this, servers for that, libraries for something else.
      I don’t want any of this. I want an install that gives me a word processor with all the bells and whistles, a vanilla text file editor that lets me type, delete, cut & paste, find and replace. And maybe an IDE for development. I want them all to work together without me having to download, unpack and install another library with a host of dependencies. I don’t want to choose from a big list of software that all seem to have similar but different functionality, and ultrakewl names.
      Find me a distro that boots up into a GUI straight away and doesn’t fill my disk with a thousand apps that I either don’t need or don’t know if I need or not. By all means put restrictions on the type of hardware I can use, but please, simplify my choices.

      Sorry to sound like a sheep begging for a shepherd; I have worked in IT for nearly 20 years and just know that Windows mostly works. I think that if a Linux distro just looked pretty and worked without asking me to make another decision that appears to be purely arbitrary, I’d go back to it pretty quickly.

      • #3159967

        ” … go back …” ?

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to I don’t want that much choice

        ” … if a Linux distro just looked pretty and worked … I’d go back to it pretty quickly.”

        “Go back” implies you used it in the past. Is the multitude of choices why you stopped, or was there some other reason?

      • #3159827

        Ok

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to I don’t want that much choice

        Fedora Core 5: Boots into GUI by default. A desktop install is in the realm of 1gig, a huge (every package) install is in the realm of 6gig. Comes with Open Office 2.0 in the desktop install.

        SuSe: Boots into GUI by default. A desktop install is in the realm of 1gig, a huge (every package) install is in the realm of 6gig. Comes with Open Office 2.0 in the desktop install.

        There you go….

      • #3159651

        Oh dear-

        by pkr9 ·

        In reply to I don’t want that much choice

        Please! – the world is too complicated – let me off. I can’t make the descisions and choices, let someone else do it for me, and I don’t care if they sc…. me while doing it. HELP !!

        I don’t know your background, except that you say that you are an IT consultant. I’m 59 with 35 years in IT, and can I tell you your’e in for some shocks later on.

        I have experience with SuSe, RedHat, Fedora, Knoppix, and all of these boots into a GUI, pick and chose you SW, and contrary to Windows you can select or deselect _everything_, and afterwards it’s very easy to change selections. Admittedly you can end in dependency problems, this program needing that service, but you are clearly informed before removing them, and reinstalling those needed later on are straghtforward.
        It is claimed that Windows installs easier than Linux. This is because almost ALL Windows installs are preloaded and tailored with the correct settings during manufacture.
        Try installing Windows from a CD on an empty box, and you’ll see a quite different situation. One I did couldn’t find the network card, and suggested I found another driver on – the internet.

        • #3159414

          That’s funny isn’t it?

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to Oh dear-

          I was following a string about speed loading OSs, like it was important to be the fastest loader in the west. You are 100% correct in that with a plain white box, it don’t happen. And with a MicroSoft XP, when starting out scratch, a connection ‘Home’ (MS via internet) is a must. I’ve had some machines take up to 8 hrs. to have completly ‘up’, and that with internet! For a ‘normal’ sys box (with XP) I always estimate at least 4 hours. I really had to laugh at some of the claims of 10-12 min. (sure, maybe to a bootable OS, but not a customer ready machine, on a bare box) And as for your net card problem, I’ve had that too. You must use another computer with internet access. There’s no way around it with MS.

        • #3161236
          Avatar photo

          Actually I had an even better one the other night

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to That’s funny isn’t it?

          I was loading XP Pro onto a White Box and got the [b]BSOD[/b] and on the reboot I got a message that read[b]Windows did a bad thing would you like to contact MS directly and find out what the problem was?[/b] :p

          Something that I’ve never seen before in my life and I’s still unsure of exactly how you where supposed to let it contact MS and report the problem whatever it was. It then rebooted all by itself and continued to load XP. I wasn’t overly happy with this so I stopped the install wiped the drive and started the install all over again this time it went faultlessly. Another stupid Error Message to add to my list of things that are just crazy. 😀

          Col [:)

    • #3159644

      is a waste of time and money

      by jjpalacios ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      things run more seamless in Windows and thats what end users want. Is not a Systems professional’s issue, is a customer issue.

    • #3159643

      I just love those blue screens of death!

      by peter ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Compared to M$dros, linux is just so boring – it never falls over with those pretty blue screens giving you time to go and have a coffee.

      Actually, the main reason I don’t use linux is because I prefer Mac OS/X.

      It is so sweet, though, to see people paying money to run the rubbish from M$ – and some even pretend to like it. Apple should never have licensed the GUI stuff to such an irresponsible outfit.

    • #3159640

      “I don’t use Linux because…”

      by ozzyjr ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      “…f.ckin fedora download is seeming to continue forever!!!” 😀

    • #3159603

      There is a better OS than both Windows and Linux

      by lzdwren ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      MAC OS X is better than Windows and Linux

      • #3159415

        To Each is/her Own

        by aaron a baker ·

        In reply to There is a better OS than both Windows and Linux

        Having said that, I would add this, you have made a statement, now tell us WHY?
        Why is Mac “That” Great?
        I’ll be interested in reading and learning.
        Regards
        Aaron

      • #3159410

        for what?

        by dawgit ·

        In reply to There is a better OS than both Windows and Linux

        well, exactly what? At one time, maybe, for graphics, but Apple got left behind in the computing world. Their whole direction has changed from serious computing to the teenie mp3 cult. (that’s not bad, but it’s not helping in the working computing world)

    • #3159594

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by reeves007 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t use Linux because…because I use OS X and it’s under the hood. I cannot imagine going for less intuitive than Windows. Apple makes the best OS. With “Boot Camp” and an Intel Core Duo machine, you can pick your OS (Windows XP (aargh), Linux or OS X). I understand that most people use Windows because it is a defacto office OS. Were they given a choice, they would pick the best OS and it would have to be Tiger (OS X).

    • #3159570

      I’m an IT business owner and no clients use it

      by thisisfutile ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      …I’m an IT business owner and no clients use it.

    • #3159556

      … It Acknowledges Finish Superiority!

      by mfox1948 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      n/m

    • #3159555

      I have to use winders for work

      by jbeall ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Although in my eternal optimism, I partitioned my hard drive so I can dual boot between winders and fedora. One glorious day, maybe I could get rid of the winders partition.

    • #3159550

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by cbetts99 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I run Solaris!

      NOTE- I rdp into a Windows Terminal Server to fill out my timecard (SAP runs on Solaris but I can’t use it with Solaris . . . go figure). I really drives the boss nuts at work that I can do just about everything with Solaris (i.e. Watch DVDs, create MS Office documents, play media files). Then again, I have been a Solaris admin for ten years and even run it at home.

      • #3151572

        That’s a damned good reason.

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because…

        Of course, I have very good reasons for using Linux instead of Solaris, so I guess we’re even.

    • #3159549

      Because…

      by rlgoers ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      – Too much invested in Windows applications, including hundreds spent on Shareware. (okay, that’s 11…)

      Though, Vista may change my opinion. I’m getting tired of Big Brother getting more and more powerful. I don’t need Bill Gates deciding what can and cannot be installed on my PC – and much worse – deleted from my system without my knowledge or consent. I’m hoping DRM is the death of Microsoft!

    • #3159547

      Who has time?

      by kinoini ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t have time to create a dual boot system.

    • #3159530

      For the same reason I dont drive my car backwards, on freeways.

      by honezk9 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Bottom line is over 90% of computer users worldwide run the windows platform. This establishes a precident that succesfully groups people and their computer problems, when they arise. Linux user, not impervious to problems mind you, may be left in the dark to potential solutions, regardless of simplicity. As a systems administator I dont prefer Linux (regardless of how good you linux guru’s say the security is) because of security. Being that it is open source, its vulnerabilities are out there for the world to see. The only reason a viable attack hasnt been made is due to the fact that you would only be targeting 3% of the populus. I dont know about you, but if Im going to spend my time to create a virus or the like, I would want it to hit as many people as possible, thus painting a huge target on the windows users back.

      • #3147835

        zzzzztttt…wrong

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to For the same reason I dont drive my car backwards, on freeways.

        yadda yadda security through obscurity is bunk yadda yadda over 50% of the server market is *nix yadda yadda insert Window architecure flaws here yadda yadda.

        If you read the thread you’ll see point by point from apotheon, jdclyde, and I why your are full of it.

        Is it just me or does this EXACT same post come up in every Linux thread?

    • #3159525

      I don’t use Linux because Windows is more secure…

      by william.campbell ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      According to US-CERT (United States Computer Emergency Readiness Team):
      For the year 2005, there were 5198 reported vulnerabilities: 812 Windows operating system vulnerabilities; 2328 Unix/Linux operating vulnerabilities; and 2058 Multiple operating system vulnerabilities.

      http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/bulletins/SB2005.html#UnixLinux

      • #3147830

        *sigh* Debunked and fixed

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because Windows is more secure…

        Just because it is an APPLICATION that runs on Linux, does not mean it is Linux.

        Jeez…what’s up with this little nugget? Do you even try to keep up with that CERT and Sans are doing? Look at the top 20 list on Sans and tell me the Linux OS is still highly vulnerable.

        • #3161296

          Wait a Minute

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to *sigh* Debunked and fixed

          Applications do count.

          Ok, not in a strictly OS debate, but two points.

          One, applications do factor into the overall security picture as far as exposing a PC to threats.

          Two, the Linux crowd loves to take shots at MS applications time and time again.

          If, and I don’t know this to be a fact, Linux or Windows programs are more vulnerable to attack than the other, I do think that has to be a part of the equation.

          Who runs just an OS?

        • #3161285

          We’ve been over this

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Wait a Minute

          A 3rd party application flaw is the flaw of the application.

          Windows integrates its apps into its OS, so a flaw in the app CAN be a flaw in the OS.

          Rather than waste my time, I point you to Apotheon’s article: http://techrepublic.com.com/5100-10877_11-6064734.html

        • #3161264

          3rd Party Apps

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to We’ve been over this

          Semantics.

          A 3rd party app flaw is the flaw of the app until affects the OS.

          Almost all software in Linux is 3rd party…nice hands cleaning.

        • #3161167

          No hand cleaning

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to 3rd Party Apps

          CERT and Sans have made official statements on this…

        • #3146378

          After eating your cake, it’s gone.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to 3rd Party Apps

          Pick one:
          Either a security issue with the IE Flash plugin is counted amongst Windows’ flaws, or those third-party applications for Linux aren’t counted amongst Linux’s flaws. Up to you. This hypocritical “lookit all the purty flaws” crap you’re peddling won’t play in Peoria.

        • #3161280

          software architecture

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Wait a Minute

          If you want to compare the security of the platform, you need to separate the relevant from the irrelevant.

          Relevant:

          1. the OS

          2. applications whose vulnerabilities are due to OS functionality the applications use

          3. applications that are integrated with the OS

          Irrelevant:

          1. applications that are not integrated with or necessary to the OS, and that do not have vulnerabilities related to their leveraging of OS functionality

          [edit: weird typo]

        • #3161258

          Irrelevant

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to software architecture

          Only so if you count Linux’s ability to shield the OS itself.

          The apps come into play when a user’s data gets corrupted.

          An end user could care less if the OS survived if their data was lost. You continue to miss that point.

          The OS is important, but my data is 10,000 times more important.

          More and more Linux vulnerabilities are coming to light everyday that don’t expose the OS but do expose the user side.

        • #3161165

          Linux or apps?

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Irrelevant

          I think you are confusing the two.

          SELinux REALLY protects the kernel. It is DAMN hard to get the kernel to do funny stuff with SELinux watching over everything….

          As for arbitrary execution, if you setup your server properly (eg don’t let untrustworthy apps run as root), then you are fine.

        • #3146374

          bait and switch

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Irrelevant

          That was a nice attempt at a bait-and-switch, rickk. Too bad I didn’t fall for it.

          “Oh, lookit all these vulnerabilities for Linux!”

          They’re not Linux vulnerabilities, they’re application vulnerabilities.

          “Oh, well the OS doesn’t matter!”

          . . .

          I pointed out the glaring flaw in your argument. You pretended that wasn’t relevant. Okay. You go with that.

          I wonder if you’re as dishonest in other areas of your life as you are in these debates.

        • #3146318

          You’re Such an Ass!

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to bait and switch

          Once again, attacking me personally.

          You don’t even know me, yet you question my honesty? In other areas of my life?

          Boy, you’re slipping to new lows.

        • #3146208

          I question because I don’t know.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to bait and switch

          I don’t know you outside these little tea parties of ours, so if I’m curious about you outside them, I must question. On the other hand, it’s pretty obvious that you’re at least being dishonest with yourself, if not intentionally with the rest of us, within these debates — so I don’t have to question your honesty within the debates.

          Was that bait-and-switch maneuver of yours intentionally deceitful, or are you just fooling yourself?

          edit: . . . and if I’ve sunk to a new low, I’ll take that as a compliment from someone who has been engaging in personal-life ad hominem fallacies against me for months.

        • #3146181

          It comes back to haunt you…

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to bait and switch

          Rickk,

          If Apotheon was to ask if you were an alcoholic or afflicted by mental disease that required medication, would you take that as a personal attack against you?

          That is the type of flippant, off-hand remark you regularly slip into your posts. Maybe you think they are funny but not everybody has your sense of humor.

          Please lighten up. You do have things to add to the discussion but you seem to sour them with the attempted zingers.

        • #3146177

          Rickk, was your mom named Assumption?

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to bait and switch

          Just curious, because I’ve always heard people saying, “Assumption is the mother of all f***ups”.

          That should set you straight on what is and isn’t a personal attack. That was a personal attack. And probably one of my funnier ones, too.

          The patience Apotheon and the others have shown in restraining themselves from actual personal attacks on you is, to me, absolutely amazing. I almost envy them for their self-control. These guys make Job look like a two-year old on crack. I’m not sure you realize just how fortunate you’ve been.

      • #3151583

        Blood Pressure going up X-(

        by dawgit ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because Windows is more secure…

        … many thanks to jmgarvin on the little help there.
        Those apps (many of which were on all the lists) were mostly 3rd party add-ons to an OS.
        MicroSoft, however did have direct programs listed which are OS related, as opposed to very
        few actual Linux bugs.
        as said above by: jmgarvin, Do you really know how to use the vast field of information at CERT and others? What we don’t need is the info available miss used and becoming more
        mis-information.

    • #3159416

      Oh! Oh!

      by ergodic ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t use Linux because…Oh!..Oh1 but I do use LInux and I like Linux

    • #3161345

      I am lazy.

      by nigel ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Windows sucks. I only use it for gaming. I call it my Wintendo. If you want to use a real operating system to do specific things use linux. No stupid wizards that dont work properly. No vague unknown error codes. No searching microshaft.com for hours searching for a resolution to a problem that is solved by “upgrading to our new and more expensive version”.
      windoze sucks
      asp sucks
      t-sql sucks
      exchange sucks
      wurd sucks
      xbox sucks
      If you want to learn real computing dont use windows garbage.

      • #3161289

        Dude They Make…

        by rkuhn040172 ·

        In reply to I am lazy.

        Medications for people like you.

        Sounds more like you just hate anything Microsoft and not hate any individual product.

        Windows is used around the world by more people than anything else. How is that not “real”?

        Wizards do help those who are less informed accomplish certain tasks and Linux uses them too.

        Linux has its fair share of vague and unknown error codes.

        I rarely search MS’s website for answers. If I do, I typically find them pretty quickly.

        If I don’t, since it is the most used OS, there are millions of other websites that have the answers as quickly and as easy to find.

        X-Box rules, by the way! 🙂

        • #3161284

          Nope

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Dude They Make…

          A) Windows is not used by more people than anything else. 50% of the server market is *nix and a GUESS at the desktop market is 85% – 90%, but with China going Linux, add 1.5 billion to the number of Linux users.

          B) HA! Wizards that are made WELL can help people, but the borked up MS wizards are pointless. Why should I still have to configure stuff after the wizard?

          C) Sure it does, but at least I can look into the code to see WHAT the programmer was trying to get at.

          D) HA! Uh huh. I’ve got a bridge I want to sell you…

          E) Unlike the plethora of forums, wikis, and LUGs that Linux has…jeez…

          F) I have to admit, I like the Xbox 360. It looks great and does a good job. The controller is also surprisingly comfortable!

        • #3161261

          Again and Again

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Nope

          Why continue to bring up China?

          Is it your mantra? Is that the replacement for “free as in beer”?

          Most of China is poor and don’t have computers. And even when they do, they are state controlled and can’t even do with them what they want to do with them.

          Try surfing the web there.

          Wizards do fulfill the needs of the average home user.

          99.9% of the population never looks at OS code whether they have access to it or not.

          I’d bet there are more Windows websites than Linux, hands down.

          BTW, again, the X-Box does rule. Many, many a nights drunk off my ass playing Madden.

        • #3161232
          Avatar photo

          Rick if I was you I would shut my mouth

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Again and Again

          Till I knew what it was I was talking about. Have you been to China recently?

          With your remarks I would guess not as they are sooooooooo far off the mark as to be way more than plain misleading they even go way beyond a [b]Downright LIE.[/b]

          The only thing that you got right is the number of people there I had a friend attend a Medical Conference there about 1 month ago and he was to say the least impressed with the cities that he saw they make LA look like [b]Small Potatoes[/b] his words not mine. The Ultra Fast Train that he had a ride on between the major cities was impressive to him and he’s used them all his comment on this one was [i]It makes the Bullet Train in Japan look Slow.[/i]

          At an Intel Chanel Partners meeting 3 years ago we where all told about the openings in China that where available for us to make money on and since then it’s only got easier to do business with them. I’ve been buying stuff from Private Companies in China for well over 15 years now and the only thing that has happened is that it’s got easier to deal with them with far less Government Interference being placed in your way. China now is easier to deal with than Taiwan as the Government there actually helps you no end to move containers around and allow shipping with out all the [b]Red Tape[/b] that they used to have. I actually find it much easier to export from China than to Import into AU as the Government here places all kinds of restrictions on you and you just have to comply with them. I just wish that the AU Government made it as easy to do business on the Wharfs as the Chinese Government does.

          Col

        • #3147061

          Settle Down Hal

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Rick if I was you I would shut my mouth

          And get back on your meds.

          With your limited experience I’d say you don’t have much room to talk either.

          You’re talking about 1 friend, shipping some things, and an Intel meeting…not exactly a broad based account.

          No, I have never been to China. But my parents were there just 2 weeks ago. They spent 3 weeks in Vietnam and China.

          That’s about as much credibility as your friend, eh?

          Once one leaves the major cities in China, in particular travelling west, the country is immensely poor and under-educated.

          And I wouldn’t exactly be putting a lot of faith in a country where the citizens don’t even have the right to free speech.

          Is China a growing, industrializing country. Sure. Are things changing quickly? Sure. But they have a long ways to go.

          For the most part, China is going the way of Linux for financial and political reasons, not consumer choice.

        • #3147002
          Avatar photo

          May I bring your attention to the following?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Settle Down Hal

          [i]I’ve been buying stuff from Private Companies in China for well over 15 years now[/i] That is part of a sentence that I used in the above post where exactly does it say anything about a Friend buying from China I thought I said it clearly enough [b]I’ve[/b] meaning me!

          And Yes you are quite correct that further West you go in china [i]away from the sea ports[/i] the poorer things look until you get to the Tourist areas near the Great Wall of China then it’s a [b]Tourist Mecca[/b] though probably not what you would want but I loved it the last time I was there a couple of years ago now.

          You are however totally correct about the way that the Chinese Government works it’s totally dictoral where it has the power but even now that is diminishing fast with all the International Trade.

          You should visit Global Sources and register to get some of their Magazines sent to you free of charge you’ll be really surprised what is available from them. I recently saw some Talon Brush Cutters in K Mart for about $178.00 AU and their cost FOB was $15.00 US straight from the factory in China.

          They make everything from IC’s to Heavy Earthmoving Equipment at prices that we can only dream of competing with. I personally buy a lot of Solar Power Generation hardware directly from China as well as some Computer Stuff and one of my suppliers I’m currently in discussions with to make some new computer devices to take advantage of some of the newer NB technology that isn’t currently addressed by the rest of the industry anywhere World Wide. Now neither of us could hope to achieve this in our own countries at a price that would make it possible to sell this hardware.

          You’ll see exactly the same thing in the US just as you do in AU the further away from the Major Sea Ports that you move the poorer the people are. The fact that we both have Sea Ports available on both sides of our respective countries just makes it easier for the population to survive and live there but if we both only had one coast with Sea Ports we would see exactly the same thing in our respective countries.

          Without the availability to generate [b]Export $[/b] there is very little demand to develop these areas particularly when you take into account the costs of moving the finished product to an export site.

          Col

        • #3146967

          Check Your Map

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Settle Down Hal

          You are mostly right, however, you act as if the Great Wall is far west.

          Check a map man. The Great Wall is only about 2 hours drive from Beijing (at least a part of it).

          I’m talking about western China…more towards Kazakhstan, Mongolia, India, Pakistan, Tibet.

          It’s some of the poorest places on the planet.

        • #3146937

          Rickk, you might do well to take a breath…

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Settle Down Hal

          and compose a well thought out reply instead of what comes off as knee-jerk cutsie, high-schoolish from-the-hip comebacks that seem to, more often than not, include references to drugs.

          So far, HAL has presented commentary that shows him as a businessman that has had dealings in the business he is discussing. You are coming off as a high-school kids using his parents vacation as grounds to build up a business case.

          Different league here. This isn’t a school playground.

          The one school analogy that would work well here is “do your homework [b]before[/b] you come to class… [b]please[/b].”

          BTW, if you DO happen to be a high-school student, HAL would probably be a good source of info for one of your school projects, if you can stop insulting him long enough.

        • #3146935

          CIA World Fact Book

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Settle Down Hal

          According to them, in 2005 there were only 100 million Chinese using the web.

          Grant it, that is web users, not computer users. But I think that gives some insight into the number of PC users.

          100 million is a far cry from your quoted 1.5 billion. Nice try though.

          Some facts:

          There are 150 million Chinese below the international poverty line

          100-150 million Chinese are living on part time jobs

          Environmental damage is running rampant

          They are considered lower middle income when it comes to income per capita

          And perhaps their largest problem going massively under-reported is due to their one child policy.

          In the years to come, with their rapidly aging population and a one child policy in place, their social infrastructure will be stressed tremendously with not enough young workers to support the aged population.

          This factor is multiple fold worse than in other even western countries like the US and Europe.

        • #3146923

          Thanks for the Slams

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Settle Down Hal

          But I’m not in high school.

          I’m 34 years old, been in IT for 7 years, business for 2-3, have multiple certs, bilingual and a degree. And that wasn’t a parents “vacation”.

          They were there visiting my sister who has lived in China before, Vietnam for the last 6 months and before that France for 6 years.

          I have travelled myself quite a bit so before you start calling Hal a businessman just because he buys stuff from somewhere, check your facts first. Do your homework.

          Hard to swallow your own advice, huh?

        • #3146893

          Good for a start…

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Settle Down Hal

          That seemed a good, well thought out post this time. Wonderful improvement. Too bad you didn’t post like that at the start. Maybe next time?

          I am curious though. Why would I have to swallow my own advice? I said that his presentation shows him as a businessman and you come off like a high-school kid. I neither said he [b]is[/b] a businessman nor that you [b]are[/b] a high-schooler. I don’t know either of you and don’t expect to, but the way he presents himself is far more professionally done than what you have done up to this last (meaningful) post.

        • #3146774

          90 % of the Chinese are within 15 miles of major Cities.

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Settle Down Hal

          The population of the interior is sparse…

        • #3146772

          Ricky, He y Ricky!!! 1.5 Billion – 400 Million = 1.1billion.

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Settle Down Hal

          That is more people than all of the Americas I believe.

        • #3146385

          Population

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Settle Down Hal

          15 miles?…hmmm…and what exactly is the source of your information?

          And what size qualifies as a “major” city?

          I find your information very suspect. Prove me wrong.

        • #3146364

          “only 100 million”

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Settle Down Hal

          Are you aware that 100 million is more than a third the total population of the United States, rickk?

          Has it occurred to you that the 111 million Internet users in China are part of a growing trend that can very quickly overtake not only the number of Internet users in the US, but its total population?

          If majority OS uptake in China is Linux, Microsoft is rapidly going to be sidelined as a bit-player in comparison. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

        • #3146337

          Grant You

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Settle Down Hal

          I will grant you that the demographics are changing and changing rapidly.

          However, here are some facts from InformationWeek and The Datbase that help explain why Microsoft (and many, many other companies both tech and non-tech) don’t champion your cause…just yet.

          1) Only about 15% of the world’s population has access to the Internet
          2) The US share of the world’s Internet users, over 15 years old, is 22%.

          Now, I’m focusing on the Internet for obvious reasons. A PC without a connection to the outside world is less attractive to a software company and other supporting roles as a PC that is.

          Pretty compelling!

          The US influence on marketing cannot be denied.

          The US represents, what, maybe 5% of the world’s population but we continue to consume the most resources, energy, products, services, etc than anyone else.

          We are a goldmine to businesses.

          Now, if Microsoft has a 90%-95% market share on the desktop (even if that is only in the US), where would you open shop? What skills would you obtain?

          You are hanging onto the what if’s, what might be’s, the what could be’s.

          Companies do have to plan for that as well. But in the business world, China would be called a rising star. But the US is the cash cow.

          China might have a growing influence in the future. But to pretend that they have as big an influence as some say now, is denying the facts.

          I can continue to give you more facts but I don’t think that is necessary at this point. The US is the world’s cash cow as far as income per capita, discrentary spending, etc.

          We have a nice mix of population, wealth, knowledge, culture, lifestyle, etc.

          Now, where would you rather be selling PC’s? In the US where the average PC cost maybe $800 and people don’t bat an eye or in China where in the east people buy the $800 PC but in the west they’re taking for free the hand cranking MIT piece of crap (joking)?

          I will grant you that China will be a force to reckon with in the future. But to pretend that they are more than they are currently is simply denying the facts.

          Now, I’ve mentioned selling PC’s and Internet usage. Neither a core function of Microsoft as opposed to Dell, HP, Google, etc.

          But the success of those markets is what drives Microsoft’s success. They make the OS, the office suite, the browser, get advertising dollars, etc.

          Companies invest the most time and energy in the cash cows (US, Canada, Europe, Asia…Japan, South Korea, etc), Australia…

          Sure, they won’t overlook the rising star but the emphasis is on the cash cow right now.

        • #3146206

          the topic under discussion

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Settle Down Hal

          I thought we were talking about desktop OS market share, not the best place to open a new drive-through Microsoft-mart.

        • #3157820

          50 miles/ or 1 hour drive is a better criteria for convenient?

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Settle Down Hal

          The bulk of China’s population is on the ocean, also. There are more prople than in California around Hong Kong ~ 20 million, Guangzhou 11 mill, and Shanghai 20 million people.

          That is 50 million people in a tiny area. Since I have been to Shanghai once I would have believed 50 million, if they had told me that.

          In 4 times the area of DC Shanghai has 10X the people. Beijing is also crowded. I didn’t mean to riposte, but China has the benefit of their population density. Good for distribution, bad for survival of disaster, natural or otherwise.

          If they had a better transportation system and private ownership of property, that country would boom in diaspora, IMHO. Public transportation is great in cities, but not so good elsewhere.

        • #3161181

          WOW !!

          by aaron a baker ·

          In reply to Again and Again

          Judging form what I’m reaing here, I’m glad I don’t use XBox, if I did and something went wrong, “according to you”, the problem would lie with me and not the unit or the programming inside. Yet All I’m doing is holding a controller, but the problem would somehow lie with me.
          Glad I don’t use XBox. 😉
          Regards
          Aaron

        • #3161164

          Gads, your ignorance is amazing!

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Again and Again

          China is not some podunk little country, they are emerging in a SERIOUS way. Not only are they highly technical, but they have a strong drive to prove themselves to the world market.

          I’m not going to argue about wizards as I have not the time nor the energy.

          As for the “more Windows websites than Linux.” I’m going to have to go with quality over quantity. I recently visited a “Windows IT” website. Their instructions on how to setup the Windows firewall was pointless. They had very little in the way of real technical content as it was mostly “ra-ra Vista!”

      • #3161143

        Wonderfully articulate

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to I am lazy.

        Gods, I have finally seen the light! This is the answer I’ve been searching for. I love it when a poster states his position with well reasoned, technically informed statements, unlike the uninformed babblings of the other Linux advocates at TR. I’m going to work overtime this weekend to migrate everything I own or service to Linux thanks to nigel’s undeniable assertions. I’m so grateful for this life-altering post.

        • #3147055

          oh, that would be…

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to Wonderfully articulate

          sarcastic than :0 You of all people, had me worried. (like the sun was going to come up in the west tommorow)

        • #3146904

          No need to worry.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to oh, that would be…

          Remember, I’m not opposed to Linux. At this point in time, the benefits of installing it don’t outweigh the disadvantages for me personally and professionally. I’m about due to try it again, maybe in the fall, but for me it’s strictly an academic exercise without application.

          Edited for clarity.

    • #3161307

      ..online gaming

      by belkris ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      …I play online gaming occasionally (BF2) and the game is not available for Linux, although the server version runs on Linux.

      Note however that this is the only thing stopping me from having only Linux at home, as all the other apps I use are web-enabled.

      • #3161281

        Cedega runs BF2 just fine

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to ..online gaming

        http://transgaming.org/gamesdb/games/view.mhtml?game_id=3618
        http://cedegawiki.sweetleafstudios.com/wiki/Battlefield_2

        Apparently the 1.2 patch can break Punkbuster, but I think there is a workaround (check the forums at transgaming.org).

        $15 for 3 months and you get to play the games you love, why not switch to Linux? 😉

        • #3161260

          Punkbuster

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Cedega runs BF2 just fine

          I’ve been playing games with Punkbuster for years and nothing in Windows has ever broken it.

          Why worry about a workaround?

        • #3161163

          HAHAHAHAHAHA

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Punkbuster

          Punkbuster has never worked quite right for me. I used to play Counter-Strike on my laptop and the Punkbuster updates wouldn’t take unless I was admin and then only admin could run them until *I* made the app global…and even then sometimes PB would only run properly as admin…

          There is a PB for Linux btw

        • #3161248

          Gracias amigo

          by belkris ·

          In reply to Cedega runs BF2 just fine

          Thanks JM. This could be the answer

        • #3161162

          No problem…Good luck!

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Gracias amigo

          If you need any help, drop me a line.

    • #3161278

      I don’t use linux because …

      by iusethisaddresstocollectspam ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      … I have another cult to recruit for.

      This isn’t fair because I do have linux experience and respect for the movement – but seriously people – why does this happen everytime someone mentions the word Linux? Aren’t there other causes to rally around?

      • #3161275

        causes

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to I don’t use linux because …

        Linux isn’t a cause. Correcting FUD and lies — that’s kind of a cause.

        • #3161253

          Religion…

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to causes

          FUD and lies or opinion and right to believe?

          Sure, there are some “facts” on both sides that are clearly FUD and lies.

          But the vast majority of “facts” aren’t so clear cut. We live, for the most part, in a gray world…nothing is black and white (at least not much anymore).

          You like Linux, I like Windows. Get over it.

          What is FUD to you isn’t FUD to everyone. What is lies to you isn’t lies to everyone. Who elected you God? Why do you get to decide what is FUD and what isn’t?

          Everyone in this world has an opinion. Respect it.

          We all come from various backgrounds and various experiences. Don’t try to demean someone just because they may disagree with you.

          You say Linux is more secure. I say I’ve had a great experience with Windows being secure.

          Who cares?

          People make their decisions based on what’s right for them. Who the hell gave you the right to build your soapbox made of glass and then throw stones?

        • #3146986

          Would that it were so simple…

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Religion…

          I believe that one of the problems here is what you classify as what. Part of the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) spread is the Microsoft propaganda used in court rooms, advertisements and “press releases”. One example is where they pointed to Open Source and classified it all as being unreliable and frought with bugs. Meanwhile, they continued to use the open source TCP/IP stack code as part of the Windows core through NT 5.

          Maybe you don’t hear or, more likely, don’t feel a need to pay attention to their more deceitful digs at the Linux community but that doesn’t make them (the statements) go away.

          Both OS camps have their successes and failures. MS just has more salesmen out front and we all know how salesmen tend to bend the truth or outright lie to make their products look better or, failing that, make the competition look worse.

          Yes, you are right. People should be able to choose for themselves and not be demeaned for their choice. But while everyone in the world has an opinion, we don’t [b]have[/b] to respect those opinions, just allow the others to have them. Of course, once they express it in a public forum, they open themselves to having that opinion questioned.

          And speaking of throwing stones, check out your own soap box. It has gotten pretty high. And many of the facts and fancies you have based it on are not so far from being made of glass as you would hope.

      • #3161140

        Out-freaking-standing question.

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to I don’t use linux because …

        ” … why does this happen everytime someone mentions the word Linux?”

        When you figure out the answer to this one, please let me know. There are some people on both sides of the Linux / Windows debate who take an almost religious approach to the support of their favored OS. Within the Linux camp you’ll find similar crusades over which distribution is better. I used to think the majority on each side realized there were legitimate advantages and disadvatages to both OS and application models. Unfortunately, that majority is either getting slimmer or has abandoned the defense of the middle ground and left the battlefield in disgust.

    • #3161262

      I don’t have any web servers…

      by qui-gon_gene ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Let’s be real, web servers are the only place Linux rules anything…

      • #3146423

        Serious database servers much better in linux or Unix.

        by x-marcap ·

        In reply to I don’t have any web servers…

        MS has a major set of problem such as patches for one DB release breaking another release. Only one release level on a system.

        Why shouldn’t you be able to develop in one release, Run production in another release, and have an archive to test to see if new code fixed old problems.

        • #3156822

          Persistence is boring… :)

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Serious database servers much better in linux or Unix.

          I work at a big freaking bank. I have worked at a couple of big freaking banks. I have also worked at some hedge funds and other money management firms. All of them have their persistent storage (database, source control, etc) on Solaris or Linux platforms. Most of them have transient functions (ETL, EII, web servers, etc) on Windows or Linux. Nearly all of the desk tops have Windows.

          Persistent storage is boring so that runs on boring equipment… Solaris/Linux with no pretty GUI. All it does it work, no play. ;\

        • #3157861

          Bingo! It works, dang near forever.

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Persistence is boring… :)

          What’s the fun in that?

    • #3161241

      Package installs

      by mcmurray.mike ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      … I want to install the versions of apps that I want, not the distro.

      I want PHP4.4 MySQL 5 and Apache 1.3 – why do I have to compile and install from source on Linux?
      With Windows I download the package install it and it works.

      • #3161161

        Why would you want to use depricated software?

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to Package installs

        Anyway, it isn’t that damn hard to compile from source.

        edit root’s .bashrc (assuming you are using bash) and create a handy alias

        alias srcmk=’./configure && make && make install’

        Jeez…

        I still don’t get why you would want to run old versions…it doesn’t make sense….

        • #3146965

          But that isn’t the question.

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Why would you want to use depricated software?

          One of the things that MS has done rather effectively is to simplify/dumb down the interface to a complicated piece of equipment. That has accomplished a number of major things:

          – it has gotten the computer into many households
          – it has gotten major portions of computing out of the server room and onto desktops
          – it has shifted the workforce around so that, in many companies, the typing pool of secretaries has nearly vanished
          – it has gotten people connected that never would have been able to interact by any other medium.

          Unfortunately, not being able to leave a good reputation untarnished, they have also:

          – created some of the best platforms to create viruses so you need next to no technical training to create one
          – moved most of the tuning elements so deep inside that you have to pay for specific training to figure out how to do it
          – fostered a hostile and closed environment to software development worldwide
          – been convicted of illegal monopolistic behavior

          c’est la vie…

        • #3147267

          They’ve also

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to But that isn’t the question.

          – set the OS market back at least a decade
          – created a strange sort of xenophobia towards non-MS products (although this is dying away)
          – is schizophrenic
          – Confused the home market
          – make home users believe that there was no such thing as security no matter what
          – kludged up heterogenious IT shops
          – limited user choice to such an extent that users are afraid of choice now…

        • #3147233

          What?

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to They’ve also

          MS hasn’t set the market back.

          Linux is advancing it in some ways, Microsoft in others. Competition is good.

          Xenophobia towards non-Microsoft products? Maybe in the OS and office world, but that is but one slice of the pie.

          I have dozens of non-Microsoft products on my PC and I’m a strong MS supporter…like you needed to know that 🙂

          The home market has always been confused, MS didn’t achieve that one.

          Security is a myth to a large extent. It is a never ending battle with no winner on either side. The only winner will be the day the battle is over which will never happen.

          Users aren’t afraid of choice, they just prefer simplicity. Some call it ignorance, others just say they have better things to do.

        • #3146763

          Maybe some detail…

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to What?

          Let’s see if JM’s points can be toned back a bit…

          [i]- set the OS market back at least a decade[/i]

          I quite agree with Rickk that competition is good. I think what JM might be alluding to is the major push that MS has had to kill Linux and quash the Open Source sector. What has amazed me is the resilience that open source community has had in the face of this.

          Here is a related question I would like answered: MS posted the SMB spec such that the SAMBA crew could create the de facto Linux/Windows file server. MS only implemented a small portion of the mammoth spec and the SMB folks had to poke around to find the bits that worked. The created a great product. Then MS went and changed what parts of the spec they implemented (like they did with Lotus and DOS 5) until they broke SAMBA. Does anyone know if MS had a valid technical reason to change their implementation? (BTW, killing competing products is not a technical reason, it is a predatory reason.)

          [i]- created a strange sort of xenophobia towards non-MS products (although this is dying away)[/i]

          There is some logic behind this on the MS part. Since so much of any application is based on bits that become integrated in the OS, they can rightly claim that “non-compliant products” are dangerous to the users computer. The bit that seems unfair is that MS created this environment and then won’t publicize the interface so the products can be more effective and compliant. The make it hard to get on the field and then complain that the products haven’t joined the field. Now, as I understand it, to get an XP certified rating, a company is contractually prevented from developing for any other OS. What is up with that?

          [i]- is schizophrenic[/i]

          You got me with this one. I could probably make something up but… 😉

          [i]- Confused the home market[/i]

          To add to Rickk’s comment, there was no home market before MS entered the game… unless you want to consider Apple. I don’t really see a reason to at this point. The real culprit there could be IBM (the former evil giant). Any standard that came along, IBM would find a way to break. I mean, EBCDIC? What was the point?

          [i]- make home users believe that there was no such thing as security no matter what[/i]

          I have to side with JM here. Security is analog (by degrees) not digital (you have it or you don’t). Anytime MS comes out with anything they seem to market it as if it never existed before. Any old school Unix junkie (can you say PDP-11?) or earlier can probably point to any MS tool and tell you the Unix daemon it was patterned after. What MS did was to add wizards and GUIs on top of them. I’ll admit that I still cling to vi and shun emacs.

          So now that people are screaming about the daily/weekly MS security alerts MS markets it like nobody ever had security until MS decided it was important.

          I loved the line that Gates said some time ago “We want to make the computer experience as reliable, resilient and secure as the electric, water and telephone companies.” What I thought was so incredibly ironic was the pairing (by order) of security with the phone! since phone conversations are only slightly more secure than talking in the subway.

          [i]- kludged up heterogeneous IT shops[/i]

          You avoided this one Rickk…
          I remember having DEC, IBM, CDC and other hardware sitting comfortably under the same cooling system. We got our jobs done.

          BUT! much of our job was in getting the systems to cooperate and exchange data. Now, if you work in big-mother IT shops you will probably only see Unix clones (Solaris, Linux, etc) and Windows. That has been a step forward since interoperability is now a piece of cake in most cases. MS, not being happy with that, is now trying to force their hand in the server market making things so Windows interdependent that, unless you really know what you are doing, you will lock yourself into a Windows only (or mainly) shop in short order. (I will let others explain this in better detail)

          [i]- limited user choice to such an extent that users are afraid of choice now…[/i]

          This can get back to the [b]xenophobia[/b] bit above. Although, in many cases, they aren’t afraid, MS just takes advantage of “ignorance breeds laziness”. If it works, why change it? Who cares (besides us!) if there are technologies 10 times better to play our music or browse the web? If it is bundled, they will use it. To heck with “fair competition”…

          Good points Rickk.

        • #3156880

          I was trying to keep in the same bulleted list flavor ;-)

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Maybe some detail…

          – set the OS market back at least a decade
          I’m not saying their shouldn’t be competion in the market. I’m saying the exact opposite. MS actively tries to kill any subsitute to their product(s). They take the stance of a Monopoly and to a large part succeed in this. What really bothers me is that they absorb superior technology and sit on it for YEARS.

          – created a strange sort of xenophobia towards non-MS products (although this is dying away)
          When I said this I was thinking of “signed” drivers. In essence MS won’t sign a driver unless you only create MS drivers. Not only is this not fair, but it kills competition. Luckly the Open Source community has stood up to this, but at some point the vendors will HAVE to get on board.

          – is schizophrenic
          Here is my point. MS opens an Open Source lab, but continues to state that open source is secure and will destroy the world as we know it, maybe worse. They also don’t know where they stand with security. They talk about fast 0 day patching and then they don’t release the patch for IE until a month later. Which is it?

          They also have some other huge issues in the way they “simplify” the market. So now I have 7 different Vista “flavors” to choose from, but there is no clear difference in 4 of them. This isn’t simple, this is crazy!

          – Confused the home market
          I won’t disagree that MS has driven the home market to where it is now, but recently they’ve started to make it…odd. With Windows XP Media, Windows XP Home, and Windows XP Pro, the home user doesn’t understand where they need to be. They also have release things like Windows Defender with little explanation and little fanfair. Having delt with home users, they can’t understand what they need and don’t need from MS.

          – make home users believe that there was no such thing as security no matter what
          I think daveo2000 said it better than I could…so I’ll leave you with this thought…Security, like an orge, is like an onion…lots of layers and tastes good on burgers.

          – kludged up heterogeneous IT shops
          No doubt in my mind this is clear. If you use multiple OSs, you know what I’m talking about. MS has not made it easy to intgrate your stuff together.

          – limited user choice to such an extent that users are afraid of choice now…
          daveo2000 hit the nail on the head. I guess users aren’t so much afraid of choice, but are too lazy to find out that winamp is better than Windows Media Player. This is bothersome and a little on on MSs part. You’d think they’d want to push complements to their product….

        • #3147150

          Please Elaborate

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to They’ve also

          ” … xenophobia towards non-MS products … ”

          What xenophobia? Most corporate Windows users have Office, and this creates a preference for Office, but that isn’t the same thing as a fear of other products. Most home users may have Office or Works, and maybe Money if it came preloaded, but they spend more money on non-MS games, entertainment apps, and online game and media services.

          ” … schizophrenic”

          Please elaborate.

          “Confused the home market”

          Again, please elaborate. What confusion are you referring to?

          “make home users believe that there was no such thing as security … ”

          Odd, I thought all their marketing was aimed at making home users believe MS products offered great security. Everytime they release a new OS or service pack they push improved security as one of the reasons to adopt it. Please note I am not saying the marketing verbage is true.

          “limited user choice … ”
          How? The web and the big box shelves are full of non-MS products.

          MS is only competitive in the OS and office suite arenas. Yes, those are two huge markets, but they regularly fail to cut it in other areas. Money is second to Quicken. Nobody takes FrontPage seriously. They’re dropping PowerPoint from the next version of Office. There are software areas where they aren’t even entered: CAD and graphic arts leap to mind. In the online arena, their search engine lags behing Google and Yahoo and their IM use is way behind AOL.

          MS is also beginning to suffer from a condition that afflicts many large companies: an inability to exploit new technologies at a competitive speed.

        • #3156879

          See my post above..

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Please Elaborate

          NT

      • #3146237

        Compability ??

        by pkr9 ·

        In reply to Package installs

        OK, then try to download a foreign language MS Officepackage on a US language Windows PC, and tell me how fine that works.

        In windows you’re locked to the language you selected in the first place. If you have a local language install and want a US install – reinstall all and loose all.

        • #3146756

          How about multiple versions?

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Compability ??

          When I first had to start using Windows at the office (years ago) I had been working with a Sparc 10 on my desktop (Those were the days 😀 ). One thing that caught me by surprise was this: I started up three desktop clocks and set the time zones (NY, London and Tokyo) and different colors and I was happy. Sometime later (for whatever reason) I rebooted. When it started back up, I had three clocks, all the same color and time zone as the last one I had set up :0 . Windows was designed and built on a conceptual island. There is only one of anything and the rest of the world doesn’t exist. For many apps this works. For me it didn’t. I ended up installing eXceed and X-displaying 3 clocks back to my Windows root window. 🙂

          Let’s take mcfreak’s request a bit further. I want BOTH Apache 1.3 AND 2.0 because I have to upgrade my website and need to run both to verify functionality. Actually, you might be able to do that with Apache, I’m not sure. But how many Windows apps can you have more than one version of installed concurrently? [b]Easily[/b]? ;\

        • #3156751

          entirely possible

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to How about multiple versions?

          . . . and dead freakin’ easy.

          On this system, all I’d have to do to install both is enter the following at the command line:

          [i]apt-get install apache apache2[/i]

          This installs both the apache package (for Apache 1.3.34) and the apache2 package (for Apache 2.0.55), along with all dependencies. The two packages do not conflict, and two separate http daemons can be run simultaneously.

        • #3156750

          why?

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to entirely possible

          it’s the configurations that really make it hard with apache, you have to build it with version specific config locations to avoid conflicts.

          the standard /etc/httpd/conf location will be a problem with multiple versions installed. You would have to pass a with-conf-dir= option to the config during the build process.

          or, for simplicity sake, edit the init script for starting each version and use the -f option to specify the version specific config file.
          you may also want to use the -d option to have a different default serverroot for the versions.

          by editing the inittab for httpd, and making a version specific you can have both versions start at boot, without having to pass the -f or -d options through apachectl to start it.

        • #3156723

          What about non open source applications?

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to entirely possible

          Thanks. That is good to know for future reference.

          Can you do that with IIS, Word or many other MS packages too?

          I will admit that I don’t know the answer since I have never personally used a Windows system for serious development (other than as an X-terminal and mail manager). I [i]have[/i] heard some serious Windows developers lament the inability to have multiple versions of certain software on the system and definitely hate it when some new installs overwrite DLLs required for other software.

          BTW, Jaqui, I have no problem with multiple packages in most cases on Unix-like platforms. A long time ago I wrote a run-time “package” manager that just uses environment variables to specify paths. That way you can use the modified command line to transparently load up the ENV vars you need. I patterned it after a couple of systems I had seen at places I have worked.

        • #3155139

          multiple installs of MS software

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to What about non open source applications?

          I’ve never tried to install a single piece of MS software (whether multiple versions or the same version) more than once simultaneously on the same system. I tend to suspect it’s at least heinously difficult, if not effectively impossible, though.

          I have tried installing multiple versions of non-MS closed source software on Windows in the past, though. Generally, the more commercial and closed it is, the more difficult it is to install multiple instances. That’s part of the reason I suspect it’s quite difficult to install multiple instances of IIS, for example, on the same Windows system. In fact, it’s probably easier to install multiple instances of the same piece of MS software on the same system if you’re using Wine than using Windows.

        • #3156724

          daveo2000, l’ve lots of multiple-version installs

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to How about multiple versions?

          Don’t take the default directory during install. Specify a different directory for each version. It doesn’t work in all cases, but it works in a lot of them. I’ve one machine running 3 versions of MS Access (5?, 97, 2003).

        • #3156702

          Does that work with DLLs too?

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to daveo2000, l’ve lots of multiple-version installs

          Thanks! Useful info.

          I ask not because I do this in my own work but because I don’t like to be victim of incorrect information. I think part of what I am thinking of might be related to DLLs. I have worked with some serious MS-heads that have complained when developing DLLs that end up in the system32 directory. Either that or apps that required a certain version of a system32 DLL and the app stopped working when a new app installed an updated DLL.

          This might be related to some header info in the file that many developers don’t fill in so apps can’t figure out which version to use (or something like that). Sound familar?

          Edited to add “Thanks”

        • #3155336

          Are you kidding??? Of course not.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Does that work with DLLs too?

          That’s why I was careful to say “some programs” (or something like that). I was shocked it worked with Access, an application nortorious for backwards incompatability of data, but apparently not of .DLLs

          All files required for an application should be kept in the same directory as the .EXE. I should post that on the “I wish Microsoft would … ” discussion.

        • #3155360

          In Addition

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to daveo2000, l’ve lots of multiple-version installs

          I would assume most people are running multiple versions for mostly testing purposes.

          Ideal scenario for a virtual PC. VMware, MS Virtual PC, or the now free MS Virtual Server.

        • #3155255

          Single OS license?

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to In Addition

          If you need to test with multiple versions, that might require multiple versions of DLLs. Would the virtual server allow for different contents of a system32 directory without requiring multiple OS licenses?

          If this seems like a dense question it may be because I didn’t express it well enough.

        • #3155171

          Multiple OS licenses required

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Single OS license?

          Microsoft requires a license for each virtual machine.

        • #3155170

          Multiple OS licenses required

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Single OS license?

          Microsoft requires a license for each virtual machine, at least for server OS licenses.

        • #3155159

          Which would explain…

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Single OS license?

          … why “MS Virtual Server” is “free”?

        • #3155089

          Actually It Doesn’t Explain Anything

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Single OS license?

          They all used to cost $.

          Then, various Linux flavors came out costing nothing.

          Then VMware came out with a freebie.

          Microsoft then followed.

          That is how the market works. Has nothing to do with licenses as much as it does have to do with Microsoft facing the facts and reality that everyone else was starting to give it away for free.

        • #3157862

          How about Oracle databases…

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to daveo2000, l’ve lots of multiple-version installs

          Since I haven’t been successful, maybe you can help me out. ORACLE 8.0.5, 8.1.7,9.2,and 10.X . They need to be able to run on the OS and recognize automountable FS and access all the DBs remotely.

          Can you help me?

          It takes about 1 hour to set this up in Linux, with a different ORACLE_HOME=VERSION;export ORACLE_HOME…. and you pick the environment from a menu…

          We have only found that you can only put one release of Oracle on a Windows server. Apparently you are much wiser than we are…

        • #3165586

          Windows specialists and enthusiasts this is your chance to shine!!!

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to How about Oracle databases…

          Oh Well!

          Sorry guys.

    • #3147089

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by bobrcj ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Nobody has shown me how to, all my contacts use windows. OK.

    • #3146407

      Linux videos

      by ddavis2 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I know that Linux can be frustrating. I have experienced it myself.

      Sometimes, training and practice can make Linux a lot easier. As they say, “a little bit of training goes a long way”.

      I just authored a 16+ hour video series on Linux. It has a 200 page lab book to study on your own. It isn’t theoretical but, instead, it is a video series where you are looking at the Linux server and watching me, the author, demonstrate how to perform different Linux tasks.

      Take a look and see what you think. Here is the URL-

      http://www.trainsignal.com/index.asp?b=1&a=11&PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=46

      • #3147229

        Nice Sales Pitch

        by rkuhn040172 ·

        In reply to Linux videos

        But no place for it on TR.

        Go push your product somewhere else.

        • #3147146

          Congratulations on your new job!

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Nice Sales Pitch

          I missed the announcement by TR when they hired you to police the forums.

          You’ll like Louisville, although it’s a shame you missed Derby Week. Do you plan on living in town or on the Indiana side of the river?

    • #3146327

      “I don’t use Linux because . . .”

      by esstee ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I haven’t had the opportunity.

    • #3147661

      I use Linux now …

      by j.g.camp ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I’m done with Windows in my home. Tired of being bent over by the M$ monster. Linux costs me a cdrom, time to download and upgrade it. The applications in Linux are just as solid as anything M$ has. I use a Citrix account in xandros to access anything M$ required by my employer.

    • #3157009

      … I can’t run Nimda, Code Red, or Slammer on it.

      by nighthawk808 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I know, I know: Wine and/or Cedega. 🙂

      This post is just a test to see if anyone ever scrolls down this far in a discussion.

      • #3156899

        just not

        by dawgit ·

        In reply to … I can’t run Nimda, Code Red, or Slammer on it.

        Sparky & co

      • #3156876

        They aren’t supported :-(

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to … I can’t run Nimda, Code Red, or Slammer on it.

        You might be able to get Code Red running under WineX though 😉

        • #3156859

          That seals it, then.

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to They aren’t supported :-(

          I need those programs for work. I’m the official company idiot (actually, my proper job title is Sysadmin’s Worst Nightmare), and it’s my job to open up every attachment that ever comes in my inbox. Why is it that whenever I tell the IT guys that my employee number is id-10-t they laugh at me?

          Times are tough, so I took a part-time job clicking on links in emails from PayPal and banks I don’t have an account with and then filling in my Social Security Number, credit card number, and PIN.

          I might be able to get out of this business altogether pretty soon. This nice foreign minister from Nigeria says that he’s going to split $300 million with me just for helping him get the money out of the bank.

          This post needs a disclaimer:
          WARNING: The Surgeon General has declared this post unsafe for the humor-deficient and/or extremely gullible. Read at your own risk. The author disclaims all liability for aneurism, apoplexy, extreme bewilderment, or you looking like a fool after you took it seriously and responded with a semi-illiterate flame to said author. By reading the above post you have agreed to these terms. Have a good day.

        • #3156746

          Dude, seriously . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to That seals it, then.

          You’re a funny sumbish today.

        • #3155113

          The sad part…

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to That seals it, then.

          There really ARE users like “you.”

          ‘Course it gave me the giggles anyway…

    • #3156705

      I dont use linux

      by barrymiller ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I dont use Linux because it is user unfriendly and does not have easy programming languages.

      • #3155121

        Really?

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to I dont use linux

        Is that a joke?

      • #3155109

        What?

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to I dont use linux

        There are a bagillion languages you can use in Linux, C, C++, Perl, Python, Ruby, Bash, etc

        • #3155102

          bagillion? Wow.!.

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to What?

          That’s a lot 😉

        • #3155085

          Huge Number

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to What?

          That sounds enormous.

          I wish I had that much $.

        • #3155046

          Me too.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Huge Number

          I think, with a name like “bagillion”, it must come with a bag for carrying the money around. Now [b]that[/b] is value!

        • #3155037

          Better yet

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Me too.

          It’s a bag to carrry around variables and objects! What’s even better is that for a slight increase in yearly fees you can get the “double bagger!”

          REAL VALUE…ALWAYS!

        • #3155024

          And All This Time

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Better yet

          I thought the term “double bagger” was reserved for that ugly chick who was so ugly one bag wasn’t enough. Double it up just in case.

          I learn something new every day.

        • #3155022

          And I Thought

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Me too.

          I had it good.

          My wife must be playing games with me. After years and years of marriage, I thought I had accomplished quite a bit when I finely filled that zip lock baggy.

          There’s something bigger?

          Damn, and I’ve settled for a zip lock.

          You have to admit that there is something sick and wrong when married and double your salary and you still have less…

          I’m driving the 6 year old car and she has the brand new one.

    • #3158284

      ok, why not?

      by worm22 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      actually, I do but … when I use winbloze:

      “the cool games are for windows.”

    • #3158217

      Call it FREE MONEY!

      by jmgarvin ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Man, how lucky you are! I can only wish to get an email like that!

      I’d respond ASAP with my bank account number, routing number, PIN, and perhaps even my mother’s maiden name! What a lucky guy you are…

      *Disclaimer: For those not in the know, this is sarcasm. If you do any of this, you are not only an idiot, but you deserve what you get. Greed is one of the 7 deadly sins!

    • #3158169

      I don’t need any security at all!

      by apotheon ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I’m such an expert that I don’t even need to use antivirus software on Windows! Viruses just know better than to screw with me, so they avoid my computer automatically.

      • #3158158

        oh, you cought that too

        by dawgit ·

        In reply to I don’t need any security at all!

        for a little while I was thinking I was the only one that got bugged about that. The sad part is some people will take George to his word.

        • #3158122

          sad indeed

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to oh, you cought that too

          rickk comes to mind

        • #3158034

          Nice Dig

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to sad indeed

          You just can’t refrain yourself can you?

          My record is clear. Your comments don’t hold water. Show me one system on my network, home or work, that have been attacked in the last xx number of years and you might have a point.

          Case closed.

        • #3156033
          Avatar photo

          I think you mean to say here

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Nice Dig

          [b]Successfully Attacked[/b] as honestly anytime that one of your AV Products picks up a Virus Trojan worm that is an [b]Attack[/b] just not a Successful one.

          Also we would need access to every Log of any Mal Ware Programs that you run to make sure that you’ve never had a single case of one instance of Spy Ware/Mal Ware as if you have had just one that is a [b]Successful Attack.[/b]

          Col ]:)

        • #3156015

          I’ll Grant You

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to I think you mean to say here

          Your definition of successful attack vs attack.

          However, not all malware attacks are serious attacks.

          By serious, I mean financial loss, intellectual property stolen, system compromised, etc.

          Sure, we all get malware from time to time. Most of which isn’t a serious, successful attack.

        • #3155929

          There you go again.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I think you mean to say here

          You keep trying to change the rules every time it looks like you’re going to lose a point, rickk. Keep at it. It hasn’t worked yet, but it might some day.

          (insanity (n.): a state of mind whereby one keeps performing the same action in the same circumstances with an expectation of different results)

          We haven’t [b]all[/b] had malware infections. Some of us choose our software wisely.

        • #3155928

          Your record is clear.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Nice Dig

          Pretty much everyone here knows you’re the canonical example of the Microsoft cultist.

          Anyway, I think the word you sought was “restrain”, not “refrain”.

        • #3155914

          Another more interesting thing

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to Nice Dig

          would be to know how many hits your firewall catches?

          Mine at home – private – took one a second after we by mistake installed XP from a CD on a PC with a live ADSL connection.

          Now, after switching IP adress a couple of times, we are down to a regular 5-6 a minute.

          At work it is a lot more, several a second, and this takes care of what hits us from the outside. We are still – as every other Windows users – very vulnerable to what hits us from inside the firewall.

        • #3155858

          True

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Another more interesting thing

          But again, if my AV, anti-malware, or firewall catches something, I really didn’t get it in the first place did I?

          Windows is very insecure comparatively speaking. But with the proper infrastructure surrounding it, it can be quite secure…that was my point.

          Any program or OS is insecure if not properly setup, maintained, monitored, etc.

          Windows may take a bit more support to keep it secure, but it can be made secure. In my environment, the benefits of running MS outweigh the additional costs of making it secure.

          For others, the benefits of MS don’t outweigh the additional costs of making it secure. They use Linux or MAC or whatever.

      • #3155913

        Indeed

        by aaron a baker ·

        In reply to I don’t need any security at all!

        Man, I love your style
        Regards
        Aaron 😉

    • #3158104

      It plays a better piano than it does windows.

      by deepsand ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Or, am I thinking of Linus? I do get so confused at times.

      Let’s see now. Black & white beagle, black & white bird, … Nope, that’s not working.

      Hey, how ’bout a little help here.

    • #3156032
      Avatar photo

      Shucks I just realised that I can’t use Windows for everything

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I can no longer play any Herby DVDs as I keep getting a Virus Alert and it stops the movie telling me that there is a [b]Love Bug[/b] Virus on the DVD. So if I want to watch any of my [b]Love Bug Herbie[/b] movies I have to use Nix to do it because it isn’t affected by the Love Bug Virus. :^0

      Col ]:)

    • #3155900

      Because I have some strange preferences…

      by craiglarry9 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t use Linux because I prefer to have a system in which everything works, at least most of the time. I like to use my CDrom, my USGs and things like that. I’ve tried several distros and there is always something that doesn’t work. But it’s free, right? They’d better pay me if they want me to use LInux.

    • #3155899

      Because I have some strange preferences…

      by craiglarry9 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t use Linux because I prefer to have a system in which everything works, at least most of the time. I like to use my CDrom, my USBs and things like that. I’ve tried several distros and there is always something that doesn’t work. But it’s free, right? They’d better pay me if they want me to use LInux.

      • #3155892

        I have my own strange preferences.

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to Because I have some strange preferences…

        I avoid using Windows because, once I get something working, I prefer that it keep working instead of randomly crapping out on me at irregular intervals, or entirely blowing up in my face one day while in the midst of completing a huge project that will pay my rent for two months.

        The only reason I ever use Windows these days is to get paid. Luckily, I get paid more for my Linux work — and that’s work I’d do for free, for myself, if nobody else wanted to pay me to do it for them.

    • #3156324

      keep your life unencombered

      by markthestealth. ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      my programers launguage is, simpler, and more effective!

      • #3156189

        What in tarnation are you talking about?

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to keep your life unencombered

        This discussion is about operating systems, not programming languages. Did you post this in the wrong place?

        • #3156144
          Avatar photo

          No I don’t think so

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to What in tarnation are you talking about?

          After what other platform would you claim that VB is a easier & More Powerful Programing Language. It’s got to be Windows.

          Col

        • #3156594

          What?!

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to No I don’t think so

          The guy basically said that Linux isn’t a good programming language! I guess he’s technically right, since Linux [b]isn’t a programming language at all[/b]. What does that have to do with Visual Basic?

        • #3158019
          Avatar photo

          Well Visual Basic

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to What?!

          Being the only [b]True Programing Language[/b] because the people from MS Said So it must be the best and it doesn’t play nice on a Nix Install because it’s such a lousy language it doesn’t work on a [b]Real[/b] OS. :^0

          That just brought back memories of one MS Road Show where a old C Coder who had not touched C for about 12 years was expounding the massive benefits of VB because he picked it up in 20 minutes and was writing code for Macro’s. Now that is Programing isn’t it? But unfortunately because someone thinks that they can write a query in VB for Excel that makes them a [b]Programmer[/b] not a qualified end user. :0

          Got the idea now? 😀

          Col ]:)

      • #3156495

        Know the Difference?

        by deesy58 ·

        In reply to keep your life unencombered

        Do you even know the difference between a programming language and an Operating System?

    • #3156670

      Same reason I don’t use Macs…

      by crake ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I like malware.

      • #3156504

        Oh Cmon, Not All Malware is Bad

        by rkuhn040172 ·

        In reply to Same reason I don’t use Macs…

        Business Opportunity:

        1) Setup Windows PC exposed to the Internet for 5 minutes unprotected

        2) Proceed to nearest gentlemen’s club with Windows PC

        3) Setup as kiosk and charge per minute for porn between dances, sell watches, Nigerian investments, and medicines such as Viagra.

        4) Or, alternatively, don’t charge per minute and charge per click…there will be plenty of popup windows to choose from

        • #3158012
          Avatar photo

          No Rick you’ve got it wrong

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Oh Cmon, Not All Malware is Bad

          The latest medicines that they are pushing [b]Cures Everything.[/b] :0

          Well at least that’s the headings that I see I don’t bother with the rest of the junk I just delete it off customers computers and get paid to do it.

          Male Ware is Great from a Techs point of view I get paid to remove it so why should I want something that doesn’t attract so much of it. It’s probably because I’m getting sick and tired of doing it on a weekly basis and feeling like nothing better than a [b]Trained Monkey.[/b] 🙁

          Col ]:)

    • #3156667

      Exclusively

      by aliciacarla2006 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      most of my apps require Windows, I’m changing that.

    • #3156652

      Linux is an Operating System

      by terp66 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t use OS’s. I use applications, financial and genealogy which I can’t find for Linux.

      • #3156600

        To be pedantic, Linux is not an operating system.

        by nighthawk808 ·

        In reply to Linux is an Operating System

        Linux is the kernel. Everything else around it combines into the set of supporting applications that makes for an OS. I hope I didn’t come off the wrong way by pointing that out to you, because I’m not trying to be a jerk about things. However, there are a whole lot of people–many Linux users included–that don’t know that.

        What applications can’t you find? There are plenty of the kind that you mention that I know of that do exactly what you say can’t be done. Let us know and we’ll be happy to give you suggestions.

        • #3156581

          You beat me to it.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to To be pedantic, Linux is not an operating system.

          I was going to ask exactly what sort of financial and genealogy software the guy wanted. Oddly enough, I wasn’t going to comment on the kernel vs. OS thing, though.

      • #3156493

        Kernel of What?

        by deesy58 ·

        In reply to Linux is an Operating System

        Linux is the kernel of what … if not an Operating System? Certainly not of an application or a programming language, right?

        • #3156472

          Here’s the difference:

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to Kernel of What?

          I have a liver. That doesn’t make me a liver. Without it, I wouldn’t be able to survive. Without everything else that combines to make me a human, the liver is useless.

          You can use the Linux kernel without using a window manager or a web browser. Try doing that with Windows. That’s a difference between an operating system and a kernel.

          My SuSE uses a different version number of the Linux kernel than Debian does. Debian uses a different version than Ubuntu does. Red Hat uses a different version than… you get the point. They all combine their kernel with a bunch of other different programs to build an operating system.

        • #3156388

          Analogy Breaks Down

          by deesy58 ·

          In reply to Here’s the difference:

          I believe that your analogy breaks down. Will the Linux kernel run as a stand-alone Operating System? If not, how did Linus Torvalds test it? Isn’t the kernel more like the “heart” of the Operating System? Do users really need all of those extra features that are offered by the big Linux vendors? Since when does an Operating System need a windows manager or a Web browser in order to be classified as an Operating System? Did early Operating Systems, like UNIX or OS/370 have these features? The point is, Linux is an Operating System, not an application program, and definitely not a programming language.

        • #3158018

          Fine, no analogies.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Analogy Breaks Down

          An OS needs at least the following:

          hardware interface
          application interface
          human interface
          filesystem
          memory allocation
          process management

          The Linux kernel provides some hardware interface, and a way to link in more hardware interface. It provides an application interface. It provides memory allocation and process management. It does not provide a human interface or a filesystem. If you add these two things, you’ve got something approaching an operating system.

          There’s probably more that’s needed to qualify as a proper OS, but nothing comes immediately to mind. In particular, you’d notice a lack of a human interface, because you [b]wouldn’t be able to use the damned computer[/b]. The human interface does not necessarily need to be a window manager or other GUI environment, but it needs [b]something[/b]. For instance, old proprietary UNIX systems like the original AT&T UNIX, and OSes like OS/370 both had command shells, roughly equivalent in purpose to bash, the most commonly used shell on Linux — bash is part of the human interface of many Linux-based OSes, but not part of Linux (the kernel) itself.

          See? No analogies, and you’re still wrong.

        • #3157973

          Sensitive?

          by deesy58 ·

          In reply to Fine, no analogies.

          You’re a little sensitive about analogies, aren’t you? Especially since my comments weren’t directed at you. Unless … you’ve got multiple screen names you’re posting under …
          So, a computer can’t have an Operating System unless it has a human interface and a file system? What about embedded systems? How about the real-time operating systems used by the military, or to operate machines like automobiles? Have you never seen a microcomputer system with a real-time OS that had no file system and no human interface? I have. Whether or not a computer is usable is a function of its designed purpose, isn’t it? No matter how broadly or narrowly we define an OS, it still isn’t a programming language!

        • #3157961

          No wonder the state of IT is where it’s at…

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Sensitive?

          No. An OS is USELESS without a file system and human interface. Even embedded system have this (to a very limited extent).

          Real-time operating systems are nothing more than REAL TIME operating systems…They still have a user interface and a file system (although the defintion of file system can be loose here, depending on what kind of real-time system you are talking about)

          If you saw an OS without a human interface, you saw a human interface. How do you modify, program, allocate resources, write drivers for, et al without a human interface? At some point there has to be an interface for the user….

          I tend to think you think human interface = GUI…

          Jeez, what is going on on TR? These posts from IT “managers” are so wanna be pendantic it’s getting silly…

        • #3157957

          things

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Sensitive?

          1. Sensitive? If you’re going to resort to lame faux psychoanalysis tricks in your first response to me, you’ve already lost any potential debates. Give up now.

          2. Multiple screen names? No, actually, I don’t have TIME to be both me and jmgarvin. Hell, I don’t have the bad taste to like Fedora Core Linux, either.

          3. RTOSes have filesystems: they just don’t have virtual filesystems (what you “see” when browsing through them with Windows Explorer, DOS, bash, Nautilus, Midnight Commander, Norton Commander, Konqueror, or whatever else you use for browsing your virtual filesystem).

          4. RTOSes have human interfaces: you have some way to interact with the operation of the computer in the thing, even if it’s just a number pad and an eight-digit display attached to the warhead. I’ve worked on human interface stuff for embedded systems — granted, only the most trivial parts of it (extending the interface via a network-capable Perl script or two, for instance) — but trust me, RTOSes have human interfaces. If they didn’t, they’d be like the perpetual motion machine that only works in a complete vacuum without any interaction with the outside world: completely useless.

          5. Programming language? WTF? How did “it still isn’t a programming language” enter this discussion? Are you just throwing technical terms you found in Google at the wall to see what will stick?

        • #3157953

          Fedora tastes like chicken!

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Sensitive?

          I wouldn’t say I have bad taste 😉

          I think he might have been implying that you are Nighthawk as well….

          As for the whole OS discussion: ‘Course he knows better, he’s management!

        • #3157908

          It is possible that we need his dictionary…

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Sensitive?

          I think the best clue is when cheesy58 said [i]it still isn’t a programming language[/i]. It appears that s/he is indicating that the definition of OS is [i]that which isn’t a programming language or an application[/i]. Therefore, anything that isn’t APL or an application is an OS.

          In the management world there isn’t time for complex concepts. A thing is either what you are looking for or it isn’t. sneezy58 clearly knows what constitutes a programming language and what is an application. Therefore, anything else is an OS. Correct by definition.

          Now if you will excuse me, I need to go drink some of the new OS I bought last night.

        • #3157694

          Poor Apotheon.

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to Sensitive?

          Earlier in the week, he gets accused of being one of my zombies, and now he gets accused of being me.

          What about embedded systems? How about the real-time operating systems used by the military, or to operate machines like automobiles? Have you never seen a microcomputer system with a real-time OS that had no file system and no human interface? I have.

          Me too. In fact, I’ve even been part of designing some. Of course, we didn’t call them operating systems; we called them “programmable microcontrollers”. There’s a wee bit of difference there.

        • #3157647

          Microcontroller question

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Sensitive?

          Hey Nightheon, 😉

          I have been wondering about the bit about needing a file system to be an OS. Specifically when talking about RTOS on a microcontroller/embedded system.

          Are you using the term “file system” as a euphemism for “persistent storage”? It may be that internally is is treated as a file system but I don’t know the internals past using the interpreter that came with my STAMP board.

          I am not saying that this is incorrect usage, just trying to get familiar with the concepts of this new area for me. I have wandered around Unix internals a bit and am just looking for parallels.

        • #3165824

          I’m no nighthawk808. (re: microcontrollers, RTOSes, filesystems)

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Sensitive?

          Regardless of what kind of computer you’re using and what kind of interface it might have, there are three types of filesystem of which I’m aware.

          1. persistent data storage format
          This is what your hardware driver or drive interface sees when it looks at a hard drive, solid state storage like flash memory, et cetera.

          2. volatile data storage format
          This is what is constructed in volatile storage, like the RAM in your PC, by the OS to provide a connection between state that processes manipulate and the nonvolatile storage (or simulated nonvolatile storage such as a ramdisk).

          3. virtual filesystem
          This is what you see when you browse through your “filesystem” with something like Windows Explorer, Nautilus, Midnight Commander, csh, DOS Shell, et cetera. It is a “virtual” representation of the data stored in one/both of the preceding two forms of “filesystem”, with a typically hierarchical apparent structure imposed on it for ease of understanding by the human user that is different from the actual structure of the storage medium’s little bitty physical bit representations. This, by the way, is probably the type of “filesystem” that came to mind for our nerfherder when he claimed that RTOSes don’t use filesystems.

          Something like NTFS, ReiserFS, XFS, or ext3 is sort of an overarching OS-interacting combination of filesystem types 1 and 2, while the filesystem hierarchy you see when browsing your filesystem with Windows Explorer is the virtual filesystem as defined by the user interface extensions of the OS. One can easily copy data, bit for bit, between two physically identical drives with two very different filesystem formats (for instance, XFS and JFS), and as long as your OS supports both it can present the contents of both with exactly the same virtual filesystem so that you’ll never know the difference as long as you don’t start looking under the hood.

        • #3165621

          So, nighthawk (microcontrollers, cont)

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Sensitive?

          apotheon has presented a fairly good view, but it still leaves open a question in my mind:

          I was under the impression that when an imbedded system was powered up, it simply jumped to a given non-volitile memory address and started executing code. In the case of my STAMP toy from Parallax (sp?) the P-Basic would get compiled into the appropriate binary stream (or P-code?) and be placed at the appropriate location in NV-RAM. It doesn’t require any additional named instruction streams, just registers for intermediate results.

          Is this collection of [i]registers[/i] and [i]NV-RAM instruction streams[/i] collectively and actively managed by a “file system” module; or, do they constitute a concept which is conviently called a “file system” because the metaphor is more easily understood and taught/discussed?

          This may well be a pedantic question akin to asking why you would call a small room with a toilet in it a “bath room” when there is no “bath” in it. I’m not looking to argue, just learn how people in that field really use the terms in practice.

        • #3157948

          human interface ?

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to Fine, no analogies.

          that’s where the problems start. No, humans aren’t really required.

        • #3165697
          Avatar photo

          Well I would like to see this

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to human interface ?

          A Microprocessor controlled system of any kind where Humans are not Required. How does it get started when required? ?:|

          Even something as self contained as a missile needs Human input to start it off but after that doesn’t require any further input unless of course they need it stopped. 😐

          While there are cases of self contained units that have no direct [b]Human Interface[/b] they interface with other systems that need a [b]Human Interface Device of Some Kind.[/b] ;\

          Can you tell me of just one device like this that needs absolutely no [b]Human Input[/b] to make it do it’s job? B-)

          Something as simple as a [b]Go[/b] button is still a [b]Human Interface[/b] but a very limited one by it’s very nature. Or are you referring to [b]Skynet[/b] here? 😉

          If I remember correctly even that had a [b]Human Interface[/b] which it discarded when the Carbon Based Life Unites tried to terminate it. :^0

          Col ]:)

        • #3165620

          Sorry HAL, it still had one… :)

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to human interface ?

          Weren’t the terminator units part of the human interface? Albeit, a predominately one way interface ;\

        • #3165141
          Avatar photo

          Well it depends on how you look at things :0

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to human interface ?

          The Terminators where more for [b]Skynet[/b] to interface with the human and remove any possibility of them deactivating the AI.

          So in that particular case the [b]Terminators[/b] where not so much a Human Interface as a Machine Interface to get rid of any possible Human input. 😀

          Col ]:)

    • #3156533

      US DRM laws gut multimedia functionality

      by ffjkgggdftdt ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      The US DRM laws cause the exclusion of many multimedia functions in the free versions, particularly DivX, MP3. The exercise of downloading, compliling and installing gets in the way, especially with dialup. I live in NZ where the DRM & DVD zoning laws are treated by the courts as restrictive trade practise and anti-competitive.

      • #3156423

        the situation

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to US DRM laws gut multimedia functionality

        It’s not as bad as the picture you paint, but it’s true that intellectual protectionism (some people call it “intellectual property” for some reason) laws can get in the way of convenient enjoyment of the multimedia entertainment for which you paid your hard-earned money. While I, personally, am willing to go to the extra effort when necessary, I can understand someone wanting to maintain a Windows or Mac machine for purposes of multimedia entertainment.

        I still think you’d be better off biting the bullet and learning something about your computer rather than relying on monopolists, though.

    • #3156513

      I use Mac OS X and haven’t looked back …..

      by nitin-techrepublic ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I need things to “just work” and got tired of wasting time getting things running and keeping them running. I first used Linux in 1993 when it was at version 0.99 and was a Linux evengelist inside Sybase, so I am neither a new user nor naive about linux. But as an independent developer with a laptop as my main development machine there simply is no comparison between Mac OS X as a Unix development environment and constantly fiddling with this that or the other ( read – sound, power managment, firewire … ) on Linux laptops.
      As Jamie Zawinsky said “Linux is free only if your time has no value”.
      I write open source software and suppor the cause so this is not a philosophical issue – Linux on the laptop is not agood enough value proposition for me.
      For a server, I’d still use linux.

    • #3156425

      Linux is incomplete compared to Windows

      by skategeezer ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Linux is behide the curve.

      Windows dominates desktops allways will………

      • #3156411

        You got us there.

        by nighthawk808 ·

        In reply to Linux is incomplete compared to Windows

        We’re still way behind on implementing easy-to-use rootkit API’s. Until Linux is as easy to crack as Windows, it will never be as popular.

        As for your second, err, sentence(?), say hello to my little friend cluebat:
        http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=195075&messageID=2022533

        • #3156407

          Yeah, that was a compelling argument.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to You got us there.

          Wow, I should run right out and spend $300 on a retail copy of Windows XP quick, and buy Vista the moment it comes out, based on that guy’s recommendation! Linux is incomplete! Woah! There’s no defense against such stunning logic.

          I guess he figures that if he makes unsupported statements, he doesn’t have to worry about someone pointing out how his logic is flawed. You won’t get accused of using flawed logic if you don’t use any logic at all, after all.

        • #3156380

          Unfortunately

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to Yeah, that was a compelling argument.

          Even I have to agree with you here.

          People like that damage the credibility of both the Windows and Linux worlds.

        • #3157917

          Rickk, Before anyone else responds to that one…

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Unfortunately

          thank-you. 🙂

        • #3157284

          Before anyone else?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Rickk, Before anyone else responds to that one…

          Did you just want the “first post” bragging rights on saying something positive about rickk’s statement? Heh.

          I don’t like unreasonable trolls on any side of a debate. The fact that rickk recognizes this one as what he is definitely indicates that rickk can see reason. I think most of us can agree on that, regardless of which side of any MS Windows vs. Linux debate we happen to choose.

        • #3157641

          Credit where credit is due :)

          by daveo2000 ·

          In reply to Before anyone else?

          Having been one of the ones that jumped on Rickk about some of his comments (last week?) I felt it appropriate to acknowledge that I appreciate his positive input on things.

          That [i]doesn’t[/i] mean I will keep being nice [b]all[/b] of the time ;\

        • #3157334

          WOW u r smart

          by skategeezer ·

          In reply to Yeah, that was a compelling argument.

          In tens words or less hmmm… lets ponder that for a sec.

          Fact: Windows does dominate the desktop market.

          Opinion: It always will.

        • #3157283

          I think u misspelled “smurt”.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to WOW u r smart

          Fact: Windows does dominate the desktop market.

          Opinion: This means jack or sh*t.

        • #3157102
          Avatar photo

          You had better keep very quite

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to WOW u r smart

          If you continue posting to [b]Public Forums[/b] like this you could get called as a [b]Expert Witness[/b] in one or more of the many MS Court Battles where [b][i]Mr Gates[/i][/b] constantly says that [i]Sure MS dominates the market today but no one knows what will happen tomorrow.”[/i]

          With such an expert knowledge to say things like that you are begging to be spending all your time in Court and none doing the work that you are employed to do. But just think of it this way the Court pays you a small fee to give evidence and that will allow you to feel good when you go home at night knowing that you have a regular income even if it is small but more than enough to keep you off [b]Social Security.[/b] :0

          Col ]:)

        • #3157686

          You should be a politician,

          by nighthawk808 ·

          In reply to WOW u r smart

          because instead of even attempting to rebut any of our points, you simply said the exact same thing in practically the same way. I could understand defending your position–after all, that’s what a debate is all about–but an echo is not a rebuttal. Here’s one prewritten for you:

          Windows will stay on top because it has mastered the things that matter: marketing and strong-arming. IBM, Novell, and all of the other companies you mentioned failed in one or more of these areas. For example, IBM was good at the strong-arming side of things, but their marketing department couldn’t sell icewater to people in hell. Novell was too much of a group of eggheaded engineers to do either. Since Microsoft has locked up so much of the market, they can continue to use their clout to squash any upstarts before they get a chance to become a threat. That’s why I think Microsoft will always dominate the desktop.

          Now THAT’S how you write a post. If you learn to write that way, maybe one day people will say “Wow! [Yo]u [a]r[e] smart” and actually mean it.

        • #3165822

          wholly kao

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to You should be a politician,

          That was the most polite “facial” I’ve seen in a long time. Radical.

          Also, it was excellent and instructive. Even rickk could learn from that, and he’s a lot more clear and rational than M[r|s]. “u r smurt”.

        • #3165101

          I got you

          by kelkins9 ·

          In reply to You got us there.

          I can hack any OS in less than 3 minutes and most Linux installs (unless they were setup by a UNIX guy) I can hack in seconds. Would you all please learn about rootkits and how they work if you are using IP they work as they were designed years ago to test IP on UNIX machines.

        • #3164947

          English?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I got you

          I’m not sure if English is a third language for you, or if you just never learned to express yourself effectively in print. The end result is the same: some of what you said makes little or no sense.

          What did come through clearly is that you think you’re some kind of l33t h4xx0r, and should thus probably be put out of our misery. Also, you’re talking out of your fourth point of contact, since “I can hack any OS in less than three minutes” is the sort of mind-numbingly asinine blanket statement that suggests to me that if you’ve ever cracked security on any system at all you’ve only done it once or twice, and only using someone else’s tools, since an actual expert would know better than to boil down the entire skillset to a one-hand count of minutes required.

          Seconds? Idjit. It takes more than a minute to profile a remote system for vulnerabilities, even on a local 100Mb network connection.

    • #3156397

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by jonjon1946 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t have to. So far Win XP pro is sufficient and I had that first, bought and paid for before I ever knew about Linux. I have tried Linux and it works well also, But my apps are all Win xp based and as of now I see no reason to switch.

    • #3157937

      …i earn a million a year with windows

      by rabear ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      …or $7k/mo if i work in the US.

      • #3157918

        a million what? At 11.9 to the US$ ?:|

        by daveo2000 ·

        In reply to …i earn a million a year with windows

        People earn money doing lots of things, interesting, boring, legal, illegal…

        Do you do anything useful earning that money?

        And in what currency? $84,000 = 1,000,000 whats?

    • #3157812

      poor driver support

      by scifiman ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      …I can’t wait 6 months for hardware driver support.

      • #3157301

        I guess you don’t like Windows either

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to poor driver support

        Seeing as they still have trouble with 64bit driver and app support.

    • #3157803

      I have to

      by rahbm ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      but because I *want* to. As opposed to Windows, which I only use when I have to (ie at work).

    • #3157786

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by yinbig ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      too many cooks spoil the broth.

      • #3157738

        Trite, meaningless… Do you have a point?

        by daveo2000 ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because…

        [i]too many cooks spoil the broth[/i]?

        According to http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/toomanycooks.html you would be saying [b]When too many people work together on a project, the result is inferior.[/b]

        Do you have something in particular that you are referring to? Some measureable results? What is your criteria for [i]inferior[/i] vs [i]superior[/i]?

        There has been a bit of a discussion here about people saying they are “IT Managers” and making useless, meaningless or flame-provoking statements. Which one is yours? You clearly add some value when discussing MS stuff. Why not try to do the same in this thead?

        One of the underlying points of this type of discussion is to help any product become better. MS has their forums to find out what their clients want (or will put up with), this serves a similar purpose for open source projects. As an IT Manager you are supposed to care about the bottom line. You cared when worring about license costs for your Exchange server. If a suitable product with a track record and purchasable support is available for a significant savings over an MS product, would you still opt for the MS product just out of loyalty to MS and not to your company?

        • #3166400

          Explained

          by yinbig ·

          In reply to Trite, meaningless… Do you have a point?

          Ok it was vague, but you spent time to ask for a reply so…

          If I was to imporve somthing for the benefit of my company or to gain a competitive edge over others – then I would not want said ‘edge’ going to everybody else for free.

          If it can be secured that my addition would remain private (hence keeping the edge I now have) then there would be no problem.

          My Board do not like their investments being released to all after they spend the money on development.

          Hence the opinion on giving away this edge to all spoils whay may be a nice, hot broth.

        • #3166299

          There are at least two problems with that logic.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Explained

          1. You don’t have to give away your developments for competitive advantage when using open source software. You only have to make the source freely accessible when you [b]distribute[/b] it. Using it internally allows you to keep what you’ve done internal, so there’s no necessity of sharing with outsiders, unless you’re selling (or giving) it to them anyway. That’s even true of the GPL, and some open source licenses don’t even require you to provide source when giving or selling your code.

          2. If others use open source software, even if they are sharing their enhancements to it, and you don’t use it at all just because it’s open source, they may well get a competitive advantage over you. Sure, you can’t maintain a monopoly on certain types of software advantage under certain circumstances with open source software, but if a given piece of OSS is better than the closed source stuff you’re using, in terms of business advantages conferred, you’re essentially maintaining a monopoly on a competitive [b]disadvantage[/b]. What’s the point of that?

          Spite is no way to motivate business decisions. It just ends up costing you in the end.

        • #3165170

          Not my decision..

          by yinbig ·

          In reply to There are at least two problems with that logic.

          It was however not my decision to make!

        • #3164943

          I never said it was.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Not my decision..

          I didn’t say it was your decision. I just pointed out the flaws in the thinking you presented.

    • #3157333

      I don’t use Linux Because

      by huoren ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      most expert users are selfish in Singapore.

    • #3157262

      linux

      by rschmitty ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      It’s too difficult especially when Windows is available.

      • #3157234

        Yeah, it’s so hard!

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to linux

        It’s so difficult to crack a Linux box when Windows is such an easier target. You’re right.

        • #3165850

          Keeping an XP system safe is easier than learning Linux.

          by mustangj369 ·

          In reply to Yeah, it’s so hard!

          It really is. XP also does everything I need it to, quickly and well, with no hassles.
          I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to change horses.

        • #3165814

          “It’s so hard!”

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Keeping an XP system safe is easier than learning Linux.

          . . . the mating call of those who’ve never really tried.

          I’ve years of experience with both Linux and Microsoft OSes (dating back to before the existence of Linux or MS Windows), and my experience is that Linux is far easier to learn how to use than Microsoft is to keep secure — or even to learn how to keep secure, for that matter. Part of the problem is that while basic Linux functionality remains roughly constant, minimal MS Windows security is a constantly moving target. Another problem is that MS Windows seems tailor-made to require herculean efforts just to reach a minimally acceptable level of security.

          In fact, the state of MS security is getting so bad that some Windows advocates have suggested that a miniscule, and likely temporary, increase in the securability of MS Windows with the Vista release, coupled with the plummeting anti-malware securability of the OS, has caused the risk vs. reward ratio of using antivirus software to reverse itself. Yes, that’s right, some Windows advocates are now saying that securability with antivirus software is so poor that the inclusion of a leaky abstraction like a process sandbox in Vista overcomes the apparently insignificant security benefit of antivirus software.

          To put it in even simpler terms: Windows advocates are saying you shouldn’t use antivirus software on your Windows Vista systems because it doesn’t work sufficiently well to provide benefit greater than its detriment when any longer.

          But, sure, Windows is “easy” to secure. You go on buying that load of garbage. Being able to click a few buttons to have something tell you it’s “secure” doesn’t to me translate to an actually secure state for the system: I require an actual understanding of what’s going on so that I can ensure security beyond just trusting that some closed-source proprietary black-box piece of software designed more to make money than provide value to me, the customer, is actually going to provide the security it demonstrably cannot provide.

          Now, I don’t agree with this minority of MS Windows advocates who say you shouldn’t use AV software on your desktop boxen. I think there’s still value to be had from your AV software, as long as you choose that software wisely. Don’t just buy the biggest names, for instance: examine matters like patch turnaround time for the software, virus definition turnaround times, scanning options available (for completeness and effectiveness of the scan, not just convenience), and other salient matters.

          Then again, if you did that, maintaining MS Windows security would start being “hard” again.

          I’d bet money I’m significantly more well-versed in MS Windows security matters than you are in Linux . . . anything. In fact, I’d bet money I’m more well-versed in MS Windows security matters than you are in MS Windows security matters.

          Speak about what you know, lest you come off sounding like a fool.

        • #3165739

          Are you done now?

          by mustangj369 ·

          In reply to “It’s so hard!”

          You went to great lengths to show that you are just another arogant linux blowhard, doing more to convince yourself that you are right than to convince me.
          I happen to be one of those fools who doesn’t believe in using AV software. The crap they install and the load they place on even the fastest hardware isn’t worth the bother, not to mention the endless sig downloads. Keeping up to date with patches issued by MS and, more importantly, safe surfing and email habits are more than adequate to avoid the so called hell that most victims inflict upon themselves.
          So, keep your pants on, Spartacus. You’ll win no convert to your fantasyland geekdom here.
          Have a nice life, if you even know what that is.

        • #3165695
          Avatar photo

          Well in that case

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Are you done now?

          Can I get the contract to maintain your Windows based computers? I need some extra money at the moment. 😉

          Col ]:)

        • #3165662

          Interesting bedside manner.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Are you done now?

          Arrogant? Yes, of course — I’m a programmer, it comes with the territory. Linux? Well, I use it, so I guess that’s a “yes”. Blowhard? Not really.

          “[i]I happen to be one of those fools who doesn’t believe in using AV software.[/i]”
          Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward recovery.

          “[i]The crap they install[/i]”
          I guess you weren’t paying attention to my commentary about how wise decisions in AV software choice require effort.

          “[i]Keeping up to date with patches issued by MS[/i]”
          That would mean more if MS patched mobile code vulnerabilities. Microsoft doesn’t do that, though. It figures, as a matter of corporate policy, that it’s more beneficial to the bottom line to leave that to signatures-based “protection” rather than armoring the OS architecture against the vulnerabilities the viruses exploit in the first place. That’s why with Windows there’s usually a long string of very similar viruses based on the same design, modified just enough to avoid identification by signature, while with other OSes there’s usually just one virus of a given type, then it goes immediately the way of the dodo bird: other OS vendors and maintainers release vulnerability patches instead of leaving everything to AV software.

          Of course, you know better. You know that AV software isn’t necessary because you’re so l33t the viruses just slide right off you.

          “[i]Have a nice life, if you even know what that is.[/i]”
          When was the last time you got laid?
          Never mind, forget I said that. I don’t want to sink to your level.

        • #3165655

          Your post isn’t worthy of a response, but

          by mustangj369 ·

          In reply to Interesting bedside manner.

          I’ll just put a few more words in here.

          Most of what you said was crap and, in your last paragraph, you were dead wrong. I’m quite sure I’m getting more than you.

          If you’ll open your mind and your eyes and reread my original post, you’ll see that I did not put down your precious linux, I merely said I didn’t need it or need to learn it. Paranoia must come with being a linux programmer too, huh? I’ve heard there are some new meds for your condition. Why don’t you give most of them a try?

        • #3165644

          such devastating logic

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Interesting bedside manner.

          I bow to your well-reasoned, cool-headed, professional and mature manner. Yes, you have won the day by rigorous logic and rational rhetoric. There’s no response to arguments like yours that can possibly hope to stand up to scrutiny. Insinuating I suffer a neurochemical imbalance certainly proves your case with regards to the comparative advantages of various technologies we use in our professional lives. Disparaging commentary about the personal characteristics of Linux users as a class of people, and someone you’ve never met in particular, makes a watertight case for the impenetrability of your system configuration despite the lack of anti-malware security software.

          How could I have imagined there was room to ask for more hard evidence than that? Clearly, my attempts to address the fact of the Microsoft security model and the sad necessity of antivirus software for we mere mortals when we make use of Microsoft’s operating systems and applications was misguided and failed to bring any relevant focus to salient points in this discussion. I will cease and desist in my attempts to measure up to your towering intellect and mature integrity, as wanton insults have carried the day.

          You are truly a giant among men, and you get laid more than me too.

        • #3165622
          Avatar photo

          Mustang

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Interesting bedside manner.

          My I point you to a Article at the bottom of this page?

          http://whitepapers.techrepublic.com.com/abstract.aspx?docid=170724&promo=400475

          Who knows it might even be interesting.

          Col ]:)

      • #3157570

        Sleep walking ?

        by pkr9 ·

        In reply to linux

        Can you name just one competition that was won by following the crowd ?

        Try something new – think !

    • #3165847

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by cwbutler ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I can’t play World of Warcraft?

      • #3165809

        Yes you can.

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because…

        World of Warcraft now works on Linux with Cedega. Check out the Cedega website for more information.

        http://transgaming.org/gamesdb/games/view.mhtml?game_id=3518

        Also: there’s a petition making the rounds to get Blizzard to release a Linux-native version of WoW. It’s possible that running the Windows version on Cedega will provide better frame rates than either the Windows version on Windows or the Linux version (if it materializes) on Linux, though. It has happened before, with other games.

        • #3144687

          Warcraft

          by jbeall ·

          In reply to Yes you can.

          speaking of Warcraft, you should check out a hilarious video of Leroy Jenkins! just google; warcraft funny video leroy
          i almost peed my pants i laughed so hard

    • #3165764

      I don’t have time for the learning curve…

      by wmrmeyers ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      It took me quite a while to get Dos/Windows qualified.

    • #3143456

      I don’t use *ix because…

      by alchemist-joat ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I use VMS. It is a superior operating system with fine security.

    • #3144630

      I’m a slave to Microsoft…

      by greentwig ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Haha.. Perfectly 10

      I’m not really, I use it at work and at home…
      Though realistically I still M$ for some stuff…

      I can admit it… 🙂

    • #3144577

      I Don’t use Linux Because

      by pisces22450 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      too much work to reconfigue printers, scanners etc.

      • #3144457

        I suppose that might be possible, but…

        by daveo2000 ·

        In reply to I Don’t use Linux Because

        I recently upgraded my computers and I remember spending a bit of time (not terribly significant, but not negligable) setting up my HP2510 network printer on XP. I didn’t bother setting it up at first on RedHat (FC4) because I had thought the same as you seem to that it would be a bother.

        Anyway, since I won’t use Outlook (Virus Express) to read mail and, instead, use Ximian Evolution (no windows scripting problems there!) I used to bite the bullet and save mail to the hard drive and print from Windows if I wanted a hard copy. I finally got bored with that and one day just clicked on the printer config icon. Basically:
        1) it asked me the IP of the printer;
        2) asked me if it found the right one (told me the name it had found); and ,
        3) asked me if I wanted it as the default.

        Done.

    • #3144215

      no internet streaming video

      by thegestunkenaraygun ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      i love everything about linux, except that i can never get streming video off the interent. i’ve tried installing real networks on linux, but it still doesn’t work. i’ve given up and bought a macbookpro (for other reasons as well). problem solved.

    • #3144208

      hardware

      by wbf ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      when i have installed linux it dosnt see all my hardware.

    • #3143266

      I don’t use Linux because ?

      by jfreedle2 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Windows just works, and does everything that I need.

    • #3145551

      It’s Unnecessary and

      by admin ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      offers nothing I don’t already have.

      • #3145475

        interesting

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to It’s Unnecessary and

        That sounds suspiciously like some of the reasons I don’t use Windows.

        Of course, Linux [b]does[/b] offer a heckuva lot of stuff I want/need that Windows doesn’t.

    • #3145433
      Avatar photo

      I don’t use Linux because :0

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      [b]Mr Flibble Scared me away![/b]

      Dangerous Penguins are scarier than Billy Boy and his Legal Team who make you follow the crowd like a [b]Brainless Sheep.[/b] :^0

      Col ]:)

    • #3141910

      Because…

      by jerry17 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      …It’s to complicated for my mentality after using Windows for 18+ years.

      Why are others posting why one *should* use Linux instead of why they don’t? Thread drift I guess. 🙂

    • #3111013

      I have to develop for the real world

      by rpbradsr ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Unfortunately, when I report bugs to a certain vendor, I get the response “It works with Linux, the problem must be Windows.”
      Ok, I’ll just tell all my customers to convert to Linux, and then they can run my product.
      Or I can narrow my market to the 2% of users who are running Linux.

      • #3110935

        Well, that’s cryptic.

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to I have to develop for the real world

        Thanks for the not very descriptive response to the question. I thought this was about why you don’t use Linux, not about why you do use Windows or don’t like a given vendor. Having more of a market share in Windows users is a good reason (in terms of short-term financial reasons) to use Windows, but not a very good reason to avoid Linux.

    • #3111545

      I can’t play Everquest on it.

      by dr_zinj ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      More specifically, I can’t play Everquest II on it.

      • #3111433
        Avatar photo

        Have you tried installing that on Vista?

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to I can’t play Everquest on it.

        I’ve spent the better part of a day having a play with Vista and spent 6 hours to reload 4 times when installed software trashed the OS.

        On the occasions when there where no [b]Known Conflicts[/b] and the program was allowed to install it quite often crippled the OS or some functions in the OS for instance after installing Power DVD I lost the Desktop and all the Icons. When I installed Roxio 7 I couldn’t get Vista to restart and needed to wipe the drive and reinstall.

        But the vast majority of software that I tried just came up with [b]Unknown Origin[/b] and refused to install this included Corel’s new X3 Trails of Word Perfect Office and Draw. Every game that I tried to install had the same results even the MS ones and this is supposed to be backward compatible.

        I think you’ll find that your reason for not giving any form of Nix a look in also applies to Vista which is supposedly going to be on the shelves of the shops come November.

        [b]Interesting isn’t it?[/b]

        Col

      • #3113066

        Yes you can.

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to I can’t play Everquest on it.

        It’s one of hundreds of games supported on the Linux platform by Cedega. Maybe you should research your broad proclamations about an OS about which you apparently don’t know much before spewing them into a public discussion forum.

    • #3113004

      …the PC I’d use it on is junk.

      by rblevitt1 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      The reason I can’t replace it right now is that I’m unemployed and
      have been for several years. I have tried to run Ubuntu from disk,
      but I only get a black screen and arrow cursor–no wallpaper, no
      menus, nothing.

    • #3141238

      After 36

      by jack-m ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      years in IT I don’t need another learning experience.

    • #2486214

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by marty r. milette ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I want to SELL a product – not give away the source code.

      I want the product to install instantly and work well on ONE operating system that holds the largest market share of paying customers.

      I want to spend my time designing better and more creative products — not waste it trying to worry about which of the 400+ variants of Linux/Unix will eventually bubble to the top of the heap and try to hack/patch the product to install and work on that environment.

      • #2486205

        You should have read the rest of the posts

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because…

        You can write closed source applications for linux.
        0/1

        You can sell open source ones
        0/2

        Whether the software installs instantly or not depends on the installer not the OS.
        0/3

        Who ONE OS is that, 98,98,ME, 2K 2003, XP, Vista?
        0/4

        Market is of course valid, for desktop applications.
        1/5

        As for the last sentence if you spent a bit of time learning about linux, you’d know what linux standard base is, you also know that that in linux, the GUI is not the OS.
        1/6

        Open source is not commercially directed, it’s only quality limit is the skill of the developer, business imposes profit constraints on quality.
        1/7

        Creativity has nothing to do with the OS. 99% of your productivity loss is down to your lack of knowledge about linux
        1/8 !

        Perhaps a few more courses might be in order. 😀

        Course, if like me, you earn most of your corn through windows, that would have been a good, sufficient and honest answer.

        E-, try harder and See me !

      • #2486111

        some responses to your points

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because…

        Tony Hopkinson provided some excellent responses. I figured I’d try a different approach, though, in case his comments don’t satisfy you.

        “[i]I want to SELL a product – not give away the source code.[/i]”
        So sell a product. What does that have to do with using Linux? There’s plenty of closed source commercial software that runs on Linux (Maya, Neverwinter Nights, et cetera), as well as open source software that runs on Linux and is sold commercially (MySQL, Open-Xchange, et cetera). There’s also plenty of free open source software available for Windows, for that matter (ClamWin, CygWin, et cetera). Don’t forget about the companies whose main source of revenue is actually selling Linux itself (Red Hat, Novell, et cetera). Anyway, this complaint of yours just tells me you like monopolies.

        “[i]I want the product to install instantly and work well on ONE operating system that holds the largest market share of paying customers.[/i]”
        Installing quickly and easily, and working well, are up to the programmer of the “product”. In other words, if you can’t write software that does that, it’s your fault — not the operating system’s. If you want to limit your market to users of exactly one operating system, however, all I can say to that is that you seem oddly attached to the idea of refusing to have as many customers as you could. I guess it’s up to you, though, if you want to make less money.

        “[i]I want to spend my time designing better and more creative products — not waste it trying to worry about which of the 400+ variants of Linux/Unix will eventually bubble to the top of the heap and try to hack/patch the product to install and work on that environment.[/i]”
        I can only assume you don’t know crap about programming for portability.

    • #2486181

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by nels ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I don’t use Linux (exclusively) because of gaming.

    • #2486176

      “I don’t use Linux because…”

      by mscott7319 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      need of MicroSuck equivalent software, & enjoy fixing Windows XP errors!

      • #2486166

        WoW! This topic is still active…

        by jerry17 ·

        In reply to “I don’t use Linux because…”

        Could someone suggest a good website (post link) that has a Linux for Dummies type explanation of how to use the thing? I’ve tried it and can’t figure out how to do anything but what comes with the distributions and then there are no drivers for my wireless G card (D-Link)so after installing I can’t even get online to figure out what to do next. After 18 years of Windows I can’t even understand the file systems.

        • #2486134

          Like heartburn, it just keeps coming back.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to WoW! This topic is still active…

          Here’s a link to a discussion of Linux for newbies, also from the spring of 2006.

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-11189-0.html?forumID=90&threadID=194059

          And a Happy New Year to everyone who trips over this and wishes I was still gone.

        • #2486110

          Welcome back.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Like heartburn, it just keeps coming back.

          “[i]And a Happy New Year to everyone who trips over this and wishes I was still gone.[/i]”
          Are you kidding? You’re one of the people I liked from TR.

        • #2486092

          Wish I could spend more time here

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Welcome back.

          We’ve been armpit deep in an SAP implementation for the last several months and will be for a couple more. We’re supposedly going to be functional on Jan 5.

        • #2485879

          Worse than heartburn…

          by jerry17 ·

          In reply to Like heartburn, it just keeps coming back.

          These people are obsessed not as much as pro-Linux but anti-MS.
          Personally I love MS, use a wirelss mouse and keyboard from MS and most of their programs. I’ve even tried Vista Ultimate on my home-built machine and have had no problems since the beta update. I’ll probably pre-order Vista so I can bitch about the problems on forums like this. Like many old timers I started by building a kit from Radio Shack, moved on to Commodore, Amiga, and then to a PC with Win 3 (?). Never have had a virus or other type of baddie and now only reboot when an update requires it.

          So all I can do is iterate what you’ve said quite well, “It works for me, why change?” In fact the ONLY reason I’ve tried Linux is because it’s like a toy…Something new to learn and play with on an old computer.

    • #2486150

      … nobody else does.

      by jvg ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      In my own little slice of reality, which I like to call “the real world,” nobody uses Linux — not professionally and not privately.

      • #2486124

        right, you do so

        by jaqui ·

        In reply to … nobody else does.

        because your router is linux powered.
        and every major company uses linux at least in the server room.

        even microsoft uses linux, since there is not a single networking appliance [ router / firewall ] running microsoft software, they all use professional quality software.

      • #2486107

        You probably just used Linux yourself . . .

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to … nobody else does.

        . . . even if you didn’t use it directly. Sixty-some percent of the Web runs on the Apache web server. Do you think that servers running Apache typically use a Microsoft Windows operating system?

      • #2485814

        Really

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to … nobody else does.

        I must owe one of my employers about 18 months salary for those boxes I set up that don’t exist.

        By the way, what’s the weather like on your planet, it’s cold and wet here.

    • #2486106

      I have a new answer to this.

      by apotheon ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I do use Linux, but not as my primary OS any longer. So, “I don’t use Linux [as my primary OS] because . . .”

      . . . I use FreeBSD instead.

    • #2485844

      It’s Boring. However With Windows…..

      by Anonymous ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      It’s boring. However, with Windows I’m always entertained. Who knows what strange and wonderful way it will fail next? Maybe a blue screen of death… or a hosed-up driver… or maybe a virus or trojan– and admit it, we all know how much fun those can be! Linux is just boring. Who wants a computer that “works” when you can have one that fails so spectacularly and keeps you so endlessly entertained???

    • #2485841

      because

      by mohsin_w_b ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      because i can’t find my MODEM’s driver for linux.

      • #2485725

        I’m going to make a wild guess, here:

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to because

        Is it a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winmodem]Winmodem[/url]?

    • #2485831

      I don’t use Linux yet because

      by melfinatheblue ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      I’m on dial-up at home.

      Broadband monopolies in the area mean highspeed isn’t that cheap. But come the new year we get DSL and I go to dualboot with Mint on one PC and possibly SUSE on the dual core.
      I have tried Linux before, but sneakernetting from home is not really practical, even with Mint.

      • #2485724

        I’m not sure how that restricts you . . .

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux yet because

        . . . unless you’re using a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winmodem]Winmodem[/url] and refuse to use an actual hardware modem (which not only easily works with Linux but also provides faster operation than a Winmodem or other software modem).

        • #2485715

          Here’s how

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to I’m not sure how that restricts you . . .

          apotheon, I think we’ve had this conversation. Attempting to use a package manager to download software, drivers, etc. is a real pain at dial-up speeds. This is especially true if you don’t know the exact app name and are browsing for it. Most distro’s are basically impossible to download and have to be sneakernetted from someone with a faster connection, or ordered from one of the sites that provide free CDs. Even then, adding apps from the CD after the initial install can be difficult. Remember the hard time I had this summer trying to set up the DVDs as a yum repository?

          I’m not saying Windows Update is any faster or better; I burned many an SP2 CD for my co-workers. Both OSs can be pains to update via dial-up, especially if the line drops out or your low-price ISP has a download limit. Even with the travel time to the store a retail purchase can be faster than a dial-up download of apps for either OS.

        • #2485675

          Good point.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Here’s how

          Of course, as you indicate, it’s no better with Windows Update — and one assumes that the guy’s answer that he doesn’t use Linux because he’s on dial-up doesn’t mean that he doesn’t use any other OS either. What is he using where either A) dial-up doesn’t make it prohibitively difficult to get security updates or B) he doesn’t need security updates?

          (assuming it’s a he — I haven’t checked)

    • #2485815

      I don’t use Linux because…….

      by mbenitez ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      wait, actually I do use Linux.

    • #2485804

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by kimo99 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      Windows gives a reason to complain!

    • #2485702

      Simply enough, hardware compatibility

      by darkside9 ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      No Linux has ever run all my hardware at once.

    • #2504616

      I don’t use Linux because…

      by filelli ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      … Windows is better.

      • #2486418

        Better . . .

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because…

        . . . at what?

      • #2597516

        Ubuntu ate my compter’s ability to find the keyboard!

        by wadeedward ·

        In reply to I don’t use Linux because…

        Well, it was all fine and dandy. Then I got the bright idea to “upgrade my system”. But I forgot the warning about keyboards from the Librarian here in Bangor. So, no keyboard at startup – press F1!

    • #2486609

      Because: I can’t walk and chew gum at the same time.

      by sleepin’dawg ·

      In reply to Ten words or less: “I don’t use Linux because…”

      .

Viewing 148 reply threads