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  • #2281186

    The Prime Directive – Or Not?

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    by 1stladytech ·

    I have been enjoying the posts and discussions here, although I generally don’t have time to add to the fray. So I thought that it might be interesting to see what you guys think about one of my favorite topics to discuss over a few beers in the backyard on a summers eve.

    The setup is this: A planet has been found in a close galaxy (not ours) that has been determined habitable for humans. You have been selected to head the mission to that planet. As luck would have it, you have complete control over the type of mission that you want to accomplish. In this first part, we will focus on what it is that you are going to try to do when you arrive.

    The constraints (you knew that there had to be some) are as follows:

    This is a one way trip – no way to make it back again. Although you will be sending data back to good ol’ earth so that we can learn what you find and do. Travel estimations are that it will take approximatly 35 years for your ship to arrive at the destination. Whether the crew members can be placed into suspended animation during the trip so as to not age has not been determined yet. Don’t count on it.

    You have to decide what it is that you want to do when you get there. Explore and document, but do not disturb. Explore and exploit for profit (assuming that space travel will improve so that round trips can take place). Colonize and setup for expansion of Earth culture and population, or something else that you think up.

    This is the beginning, after we determine the mission, then we will begin on the crew makeup and everything else.

    What about it? Do I have any adventurers that would like to take the challenge?

    Vickie

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    • #3363548

      Colonize…

      by road-dog ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      If this is a one way trip, then immediate survival is the first concern. Survival science should occur in parallel with setting up defensible and climate resistant shelter for the initial party. Immediate threats are identified and countermeasures planned. Food is an immediate concern due to lag time in production, so agriculture is a priority, along with efforts to identify safe indiginous sources of nutrition.

      After that, then exploration and documentation begin. If intelligent life is discovered, then diplomacy ensues. Should there be no competition for resources, the existing resources should be researched and exploited.

      Obviously, the colony would need to move from the martial law and rigid command structure of the first arrival to a more democratic government for the long haul.

      A smart colonial party would create a self sustaining colony with marketable products manufactured locally. With successive missions to follow, the colony may want a less colonial relationship with the home world, meaning that an independence plan should be thought out for when the home world wants to exert control over the new world.

      I think of it as similar to the colonization of the Americas. We might want to avoid communism as was tried in the Plymouth colony, a little known fact about Thanksgiving.

    • #3363543

      Colonize

      by oldefar ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      Life is parasitic to whatever environment it is in, and rule one for any good parasite is to find the next host. To do otherwise is suicide for the species – your specie life expectancy cannot exceed that of the host.

      So I go to colonize. However, I do not go with any expectation of a follow on group. Like a good planetary sneeze, I assume my team is it. No going back, nobody coming along later. For my team I want generalists from the most diverse gene pool possible. Who knows what traits will prove most important in generations to come?

      I believe 200 is now viewed as the minimal size population for survival of a species. If suspended animation is not an option, then I am thinking children so that breeding is still an option when we arrive. Maybe a 10:1 ratio of babies to adults so that the real colonists (the kids) have a source of learning while enroute.

      Forget about specialists. This being a one way and assumed one shot deal, all technology will have to be “home grown” from materials at the new planet. In America, the Indians were defeated by artifacts of a different culture which they could not create for them selves. Knowledge is something else. I want our math and our physics, our knowledge of medicine and biology, and our music. These need to be on plates of gold since I have no expectation that any electronic media will last or that other physical media won’t deteriote over time. Thanks, but I think I will leave our politics and religion behind and see what develops.

      As a 35 year trip, I think loss of communications with Earth will be appropriate about 2 years out. Since the trip is assumed as one way, there is no advantage in keeping ties with our old home.

      • #3363380

        Here’s my mix

        by oldefar ·

        In reply to Colonize

        I am sticking with the one way, no return, and no expectation of a following ship.

        My mix of 200, with a 10:1 ratio of children to adults, also holds. I am expecting a space generation born along the way, so I am starting below the 200. Eight adults, gender balanced. All recruited from educators. One PJ (para-rescue) with experience teaching survival skills. One music teacher. One science teacher. One math teacher. Four generalists with mentoring skills. Eighty children, gender balanced, age balanced from 1 to 5. All participants at least seperated genetically by three generations. This gives the colony an initial 88 people. During the 35 year journey I expect between 90 and 120 births. This approach will buy us another couple of years once we arrive on the supplies we carry – 36 years for 200 people.

        Personally, I am not concerned about screwing up another planet. I intend for the colony to thrive and populate the whole place.

        • #3364239

          Sick, selfish attitude …

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Here’s my mix

          Please offer some logical and humane reason why the colonists should not share the planet with the existing inhabitants. What a great karmic start it would be for the colonists to summarily eradicate the alien population from its home.

          With this mentality, the colonists would eventually split into groups and try and kill each other off.

        • #3364230

          Perceptions

          by oldefar ·

          In reply to Sick, selfish attitude …

          Funny how everyone brings their own perspective into a discussion.

          Thirty-five years in a closed self-sustaining ecosystem will bring with it an entirely different mind set than what is typical among people today. Keep in mind that the people aboard the spaceship will be constantly living on the edge of survival – no new resources, total recycling, a reliance on the success of other species from bacteria to plants and possibly animal life, all to survive. Failure to recognise that humanity has to fit within this web of life will be fatal.

          Now we arrive on a new planet to colonize. Assuming an existing ecosystem, the first step will be to find out how to integrate with that web. This is the mindset that will be brought, developed with the adults and lived as a natural condition with the new generations enroute.

          And you consider this a sick and selfish attitude? Or did you assume that a lack of worry about colinization indicates an desire to exploit and destroy? Every successful parasite “learns” that host destruction is suicide unless another host is readily at hand.

        • #3364221

          “screwing up another planet” …

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Here’s my mix

          “Every successful parasite “learns” that host destruction is suicide unless another host is readily at hand.”

          Well I certainly was unaware of this bit of wisdom. However if the space travellers are appropriately briefed in this regard, they may proceed with my blessing.

        • #3376434

          Questions

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Here’s my mix

          First of all, why only take one teacher and one scientist? I think that several of each would be more effective as they could discuss and debate findings to hopefully find a common answer. With a single mentor from each group, how would the population be assured of learning the correct information or discovering anything at all with only one scientist? It takes many great minds to discover, learn and teach, not a single opinion.

          “Personally, I am not concerned about screwing up another planet. I intend for the colony to thrive and populate the whole place.”

          Now this is assuming of course that YOU are the most intelligent race or can gather enough resources to reduce your opponent before being wiped out completely.

          As I’ve said before, we can’t be arrogant enough to assume that we will be the more intelligent being or that we are the only intelligent lifeform in the universe.

    • #3363469
      Avatar photo

      Firstly I think you mean star system not Galaxy

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      But leaving that one alone for the time being I’d have to go with the colonise as it would be the only viable option as this is admitted to be a one way trip there has to be selective breeding on the way as the people who start the expidetion will not be the ones who finish the expidetion sure most will still be alive when they make planet fall but they will all be very old and be a drain on the scarce resources that will be available so some form of youthinasia would have to be impelmented for the good of the society. And this would be the beginning of the end as while the older people are unnecessary at thebeginning they will be required latter on when things get easire but the procedure once established will continue if only because that the way we do things here attitude.

      All the available knolledge will need to be taken with them as well but not on any form of technology as we know it but writen down on some form of material that is not possible to corode away or be considered as usefull like most forms of metal that could be melted down for other needs.

      Long before we even begin to chose a crew we will have to solve these very basic issues and then have a suitable ship that will be self sustaining for the trip and the begining of the settlement when they arrive on the planet that is providing it is habitable in the first palce and then they will need some form of computer system to run the ship perhaps a “HAL 9000” would fit the bill nicely particuarly after giving it a lowlevel overriding comand to finish the mission no matter what but not alow the crew into the secret.

    • #3363418

      Ok, lets colonize

      by 1stladytech ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      Since the consensus so far seems to colonize to further spread the parasitic beings that we are, here are futher constraints and allowances. The ship that we will be traveling in is capable of holding 200 persons, plus enough supplies, etc for the trip and a very short period of time afterward. You have to choose, at least by profession, what type of people that you are going to bring along. As well as ages, etc as mentioned earlier. Specifically, what professions / mixes of professions would you select and why?

      I would personally lean more towards exploration and information gain, rather than colonization. Obviously, we would have to develop shelter, procure adequate food supplies, etc in order to continue our own existance, but the most important thing to me as a leader would be to discover and document the planet with as minimal impact on existing order as possible.

      I guess I figure that we have been a scurge on our own planet – what makes us think that we should do it to another?

      (Col Luck, sorry about the confusion on galaxies and solar systems, it was late and I have already put in over 100 hours so far this week. I plead tiredness.)

      Vickie

      • #3363387

        Colonization, not a cuss word

        by road-dog ·

        In reply to Ok, lets colonize

        Every animal on earth consumes resources and creates waste. Mankind simply has been able to use superior intelligence to increase survival rates. Other species have reached sizable numbers but not been as successful at adapting to nearly every environment on earth. We are not parasites, we are the dominant species.

        I find it ironic that some would say that we have “defiled” the earth.

        • #3363298

          All Parasites

          by oldefar ·

          In reply to Colonization, not a cuss word

          Sorry, but all life is parasitic. That is an observation, not a critisism.

          As for what shape the earth is in – we have certainly released a lot of toxins where they can harm life, and created a few new ones along the way.

          Now the good news for this little exercise. Since the colonists well have to spend 35 years traveling, it is safe to say that the spacecraft will have to be a self contained and self sustaining ecosystem. This should result in a group that takes such an approach for granted, and is more likely to apply such a mindset on the new planet.

        • #3376690

          Parasites live off other organisms

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to All Parasites

          in a decidedly unbenign way. An organism that consumes elements of it’s environment does not fit this category. My love for quarter pounders with cheese does not make me a cow’s parasite.

          The only way that EVERY living organism would be classified as a parasite would be if the earth were classified as an organism, which it is not. It’s not even a closed ecosystem, as sunlight plays a large role in the food chain.

          Or is the earth a parasite on the sun?….

        • #3376652

          Back to the dictionary …

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to All Parasites

          PARASITE:
          1. an animal or plant that lives in or on another (the host) from which it obtains nourishment. The host does not benefit from the association and is often harmed by it.
          2. A person who habitually lives at the expense of others; sponger.
          3. A sychophant.

          A much healthier relationship is SYMBIOSIS:
          1. a close association of two animal or plant species that are dependent on one another.
          2. a similar relationship between interdependent persons or groups.

        • #3364236

          Dominant species, but ….

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Colonization, not a cuss word

          also probably the only one capable of destroying the planet and all thereon. If you think humans haven’t “defiled the earth,” then perhaps you would like to consider what our planet would be like without humans.

          Most important to note is that WE depend on the vegetable kingdom for oxygen, absorption of carbon dioxide, and for sustenance through the various food chains. The vegetable kingdom does not need humans at all.

          If you care to pull your head out of the sand for a moment, you might actually notice how much forest has been destroyed (and on which humans depend for their survival); how much fertile earth has been turned into wasteland because of short-sighted farming methods; how many animal and vegetable species have been made extinct by human pervasion of the planet, and so on.

          It has occurred to me many, many years ago that the human race will only start to take environmental damage seriously when they find themselves on the brink of extinction, or when someone dreams up some way of making money by reversing environmental despoliation.

      • #3377791
        Avatar photo

        Vickie Can I trade places with you

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Ok, lets colonize

        To only put in 100 a week would be bliss and I only asked because it was so late that I thought I wasn’t reading it properly anyway. I’m easly confused with out anyone else trying so there was no intention of starting any arguments or anything like that.

        Now for the makup of the crew well that is going to take some thought a 35 year trip wit no chance of return and an unknown destination surface conditions.

        I could always say fill it full of the same sex Pollies and Lawers and just get rid of them all together a good idea if there is a great likelyhood of adverse surface conditions as they could spend the whole trip fomulation living stratagies and arguing about equial opportinuty.

        But as a realistic Science party goes there would have to all be teachers who are the original people onboard as they would not be the main colonists but their children and grand childern so it would be these who would need to know what to do and what to expect. For the same reason it would be necessary to only have a minimum crew count at the beginning and allow them to bread along the way. This would at least not tax the ships enviroment and ability to supply the requirments of life. It would also give some form of protection in case of some form of calamity befalling the ship like a collision with astroids as it leaves this Solar System as there are susposed to be a huge number of these around the outside of this Solar System and it would be presumed that the same would apply when the ship approches the destination Solar System.

        There would have to be some form of self repair built into the systems and the main hull in particular, as well as means of generating new raw materials like O 2 and H 2 O if these storage units became comprimised. It also goes without saying that there would be the need to recycle everything so there would ne no disposable items onboard.

        I’ll think about crew makeup and get back on this one as it is a very complicated issue.

      • #3377834

        Multi-role

        by mrbill- ·

        In reply to Ok, lets colonize

        The initial 1st generation, Oldefar?s 8 adults idea is good, crew would have to be multi-roled, all teachers with other specialties, medicine, agro, engineering, construction, physical training, martial training? with each person highly skilled in 2 or more areas, in case a loss of a single person will not cripple the mission.

        • #3377598

          Specialties

          by oldefar ·

          In reply to Multi-role

          I am thinking that the colony will have to survive with what it brings and what it creates on the new planet. The problem with specialties is finding ones that do not rely on an existing base. For example, what resources would a medical doctor have away from Earth? For that matter, what knowledge would a shaman or natural healer have on a world with different plants and anmimals? Hence the PJ – practiced in first aid and survival care with no medical resources.

          The same with engineers. Would a structural or electrical engineer add value on a new planet with potentially different materials and possibly no power? Maybe a good handyman would be of better use. Red Green and a thousand rolls of duct tape. :-0

          I suspect that the colony will be at the stone age inside of a few generations, so the goal is to move past that into metals and then technology as quickly as possible. Everything has to be geared towards shrinking the learning curve, but without knowing what will be on hand it tough to guess how to accomplish that.

          Now Colin sees this as an initial passage for an on-going trade – colony in the colonial rule format that ended in the 1950’s. A tie to the motherland, or mother earth, to pull knowledge, expertise, and resources from. I am thinking more of the Polynesian model – sailing off and dealing with what we find when we reach the next habitable island. No expectation of trade or even contact with our past.

        • #3377517
          Avatar photo

          Not trade in the conventional sence

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Specialties

          But more an exchange of data which would be far more valuable than any “Raw Materials” as it would add to the knolledge base of Man Kind with out the need to resort to battering for essential data that would make it easier to colonise the planet. But somehow I don’t think man is yet ready for this step as we are still to tied up in Nationalisum for our own good. Once we can learn to work for the common good we will get a lot further faster than we ever have previously.

          Actually Ken give me your take ojn what I posted below.

          Col

        • #2678363

          Specialists and bootstrapping

          by generalist ·

          In reply to Specialties

          Actually, an electrical engineer would be useful for helping set up the electrical grid you could make by damming up a stream and redirecting water through a turbine made of native materials. Furthermore, said engineer would probably be useful onboard ship as a repairman.

          Of course, this electrical engineer probably wouldn’t need to be an expert at megawatt power plants or integrated circuits. But he or she would be quite useful at developing the technology needed to bootstrap to said technologies should they be desired.

          For that matter, a structural engineer would also be useful, although a person with architectural training that includes structural engineering might be a better bet. The architect could not only design environmentally friendly structures using native materials, but he or she could do the structural engineering for the bridges, dams, roads and other structures that are useful for society.

          If you had the right tools and worked your tail off with an eye toward saving the essentials of civilization, you could avoid the Stone Age and get to a civilization level that would be a cross between the technology of the 1850’s and the 1950’s with a hint of more advanced tech scattered about.

          Imagine hitching your horses to the family carriage made of laminated native grasses and listening to your solar powered radio while going to town to pick up the goods you requested over the radio-phone. On your way you follow a well engineered road and cross several carbon-fiber reinforced concrete bridges made with local technology using local materials.

          When you get into town you may visit the medical clinic, which has the latest technology from the small but growing medical school. You may also spend some time at the library, picking up copies of books for home schooling. While the paper may be crude, the technology has been around a long, long time so it is one of the first things that was replicated.

          All of the above and more would be possible if you looked at low tech ways of doing things and had creative people who know how to adapt.

        • #2679163

          Surveyers

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Specialists and bootstrapping

          I like the thought of using the local resources, but ore does not grow on trees to be picked. Here are a few more ideas.
          Surveyers, to find the ore, Miners, to get the ore. It would be a good idea if the miners were surveyers, and then smelters, to process the ore’s. Finally people to create new ways to process the ore’s. This could add quite a bit to the 200 person population. After all of that, electricians, scientists, farmers, teachers, and explorers would be the most needed, and only one of each would not suffice at all. I do think that bringing as much technology with would be the best way, but also must bring the best and most advanced teaching references as well.
          Just my thoughts

        • #2677571
          Avatar photo

          You have some valid points but I’d still

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Surveyers

          Prefer to go with the smallest possible ship and fill it full of technology with bare crew quarters and when it reaches the end of its journey they just “Clone” the inhabidents and not in the conventional sence like they can now but take a DNA sample and produce a fully grown being within a short time who is “Programed/Taught” all that they require while being grown.

          This way you could retain a smaller ship and still have a big enough gene pool to breed from when the colony gets established. As we don’t as yet have any anti-matter drive units and presently don’t look as if we ever will the bigger the mass of the ship that is sent the more fuel is required to get it there in a safe manner.

          So by following this to its natural end you need a big ship that needs to be made bigger to carry the required fuel and then need to be increased in size again for the extra fuel required this is a self developing spiral that we would have to get away from.

    • #3377840

      Lets make it a home – and use event thing we can

      by jimhm ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      The Prime directive – was to alter the course of the inhabidants of a planet … not a empty one…

      Move on to the planet – eat the fruit, vegs and aminals – make cloths from their skin – hum like bunnies and make loads more Earthers… Build anywhere –

      Are you nuts – after being asleep for 35 light years – oh baby –

    • #3377650

      Colonization strategies

      by generalist ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      I’d go the colonization route and use the minimum population of 200 people.

      I’d then make sure that there is a fairly good supply of human eggs and sperm available in cold storage to expand the genetic base.

      I would try to have a good mix of essential specialists and generalists and would make sure that the library for future generations is as big as I can make it. Several shielded copies of said library would be aboard in various electronic forms.

      I would also make sure there are hard copy libraries of many of the same things, though it would have to be heavily pruned to fit on the ship. It would be horrible to get to the target planet and find that the electronic library has been scrambled and you are limited to what you remember.

    • #3377518
      Avatar photo

      OK this has been driving me slightly more

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      Crazy than normal. First we would be relying on some very hitech technology to acopmlish this jorney in the first place as our nearese star is somethiong like 100 Light Years away so to perform this trip in a 35 year period would require the ship in question to be able to travel at at least 2.5 times Light Speed so it would need some sought of forcefield to stop any small objects from punching holes in it every time they made contact and a way of avoiding large objects. Now since this technology is no where know yet I would say that if we had developed this far we would also have developed technology in other areas as well even if there was no garantiee of suspened animanition there would be the posibility of carring and replicating humans from either Stored Feretilised Ovum or DNA. This way the crew could be kept to a minimum of only 4 – 6 which would be split along gender lines for in flight breading and the like and the rest could be carried in a small deep freze unit that auto ran on a one time only basis when the other end was reached and spat out adult humans of the necessary numbers from the stored gene pool. So even if the flight was sucessful and they reached the other planet but it was found to be unsuitable they could either turn around and come home or try for another star system until they found a suitable planet.

      I will not even hazard a guess as to what the motive power would be but any chemical rocket would have been long gone and we are now looking in the relms of the Inon Drive or something else that as yet hasn’t been even thought of.

      I’m sorry but Oldfar’s first suggested crew was just a bit to 1984’ish for my liking. The crew would have to conist of all adults even though they would have to be in their lower 20’s when they started as they would be reaching 60 when the trip finished so it is only to be expected that they would reproduce along the way and the offspring born in deep space would be the first to step onto the “New World.” I don’t think contact would be maintained just because of the distances involved unless there was something better than conventional “Radio” available as it is a pointless excercise transmitting data in an emergence and then waiting several decades before getting a responce. I would see this colony ship as an offshoot of the human race starting to replace itself across the galaxy in an attempt to maintain the species. Maybe they would send a costant data streem back to earth once they got there but then again it’s all a bit accidemic.

      So if I follow the same prinicapal that I have all my working life which is the KISS prinicipal {Keep It Simple Stupid.} Then a small crew to maintain the ship would be required and then on landing the main party of colonists would be created by the machinery onboard ship as even now we have no idea of what prolonged space flight will actually do the human body so it is possible that even those born on the way may not be able to step on the “New World” even with some form of Artificial Gravity onboard ship. This obviously could not be maintained by a constant acceleration as the speed reached would make it impossible to ovoid any object large enough to destroy the ship. So some other form of gravity would have to be produced and even then would in all likely hood have to eceed 1 G just to maintain body fittness.

      Now I would propose three replication units each capable of turning out a fully grown and preprogramed human adult every 3 minutes or so with the first units being produced being guards who would defend the ship and landing area and surrounding areas as required and when these where sucessfully secured different units could be reproduced for the many different tasks involved. This way you could have a large settlemt established in a short time and not need a large ship to transport them all there. I think this would be the best way of moving a large enough population of Humans from this planet to another one with minimum effort ond minimum riskto indivules. I’m not talking about cloning here only replicating humans from a gene stock that was specially stored in the first place for this purpose.

      But just to put a dampner on the whole thing with the rapid advances in technology they could always be met at the other end by a younger version of themselves several generations removed telling them they aren’t wanted there and clear off.

      • #3377500

        You’re forgetting that its star treck – warp 10 scottie

        by jimhm ·

        In reply to OK this has been driving me slightly more

        You is forgetting that it is star treck and they could travel a number of times faster than the speed of light. So 100 light years say at Warp 10 could only take a few days ….

        I mean in star treck they would go between planets in two or 3 days at warp 5 – I don’t know what the conversion was but I think the Warp Field permitted – factors of 3 to the speed of light.

        Oh well – dreams … never in my life time ..

        • #3364209
          Avatar photo

          But even in Star Treck

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to You’re forgetting that its star treck – warp 10 scottie

          Warp 10 was an unbreakable speed barrier. The best that they could manage was getting close to 9.9.

          When they crosses the Warp 10 barrier in Vouger there where some interesting results. Remember?

        • #3363911

          Warp Factor Nine

          by generalist ·

          In reply to But even in Star Treck

          At warp factor nine, you would be traveling at about 1500 times the speed of light. Given that the Milky Way Galaxy is about 30,000 light years across, it would take only twenty years to go from one edge to another.

          Of course it might be safer to go around the core. That would add a year or two.

        • #3376687

          I believe that warp is geometric

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to But even in Star Treck

          Kind of like the Richter Scale, 5.0 earthquake being 10 times as powerful as a 4.0.

          1 being P – one time the speed of light
          2- 10*P
          3- 100*P
          4- 1,000*P
          5- 10,000*P
          6- 100,000*P
          7- 1,000,000*P
          8- 10,000,000*P

          9- just too damn fast

          As you can imagine, warp 8 turns a journey of lifetimes at sublight speed to a moment’s travel.

        • #3376602
          Avatar photo

          It’s all acidemic though

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I believe that warp is geometric

          As even in Star Treck they could only travel in straight lines while at “Warp Speed” so you could not continue at thsi speed for any length of time without running into something so the trip into the unknown would have to comprise of short jumps from one place to another within sensor range so that you didn’t end up trying to travel through a planet, moon, sun, astroid belt or the like so while it is thericoricaly possible these speeds they would remain usless as a real time saving on any trip into unexplored space. It is just like sailing you can go as fast as you like when you lnow whats up front but you remain cautious when you don’t know exactly where you are or what is in front. We’ve already seen enough ships run aground in the last few years. So this proposed trip into the unknown would be a slow and time consuming trip unless some other means of travel was known.

          Actually in Voyger weren’t they transported something like 100,000 Light Years from their current location to the Caretakers Array and they esteminated that at maxinum “Warp” it would take 75 years for the return jorney? That was stil within this Galaxy so I would suggest that there is something wrong with the above calucations or the scrip writters of Star Treck got it wrong.

        • #3376538

          Star Fleet Technical Manual

          by generalist ·

          In reply to I believe that warp is geometric

          I seem to recall that the original Star Trek used an exponential variation. But it also seems that the newer Treks have refined that.

          I remember doing some calculations a couple of decades ago where, if you were doing warp factor twelve or so, you would be crossing the galaxy in a matter of minutes.

        • #2678186
          Avatar photo

          But only in a Straight Line!!!

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Star Fleet Technical Manual

          Isn’t that correct?

        • #2677916

          you can still go a long ways in a straight line…

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Star Fleet Technical Manual

          http://science.howstuffworks.com/question221.htm

          0.0000000000000000000042 percent of the universe contains any matter. The universe is a pretty empty place!

          Consider this, 70 percent of the earth is covered with dihydrogen monoxide, the rest unfriendly to boats. The oceans still allow for lots of room for navigation in a straight line!

          Whether seafaring or spacefaring, I would still worry about icebergs,though. They can really ruin a nice journey.

        • #2677854
          Avatar photo

          Yes you can but the problem comes

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Star Fleet Technical Manual

          When it’s time to stop in unknown space as you don’t want to end up a a smudge on the side of a astroid, planet or even be consumed by a sun that was in your path and they wou only knew about when it was too late.

          I’ll say it again you need to have reference points when travelling fast the faster you intend to travel the more reference points you need so if you where to go into unexplored space you would by the very fact need to go slow just to avoid the unknown.

        • #2677813

          Calculated risk and astrogation

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Yes you can but the problem comes

          The matter in the galaxy appears to be unevenly shotgunned around. There are clumps of matter that compose solar systems with large voids in between. Our solar system is akin to an island in an ocean moreso than an island in an archipelago.

          Thats the big point here on multigenerational exploration, the distances are huge.

          These voids may not really be so empty, with the odd piece of stellar debris floating around. I suspect that the actual probability of striking a piece are quite small. Remember that space has been arond for a long time. There has been lots of time for the solar systems’ gravitational influences to collect the debris.

          Even then, if you are traveling at supralight speed and you turn the radar on, what happens?

          I guess we need to work on those shields on the ship as well as the engines….. Maybe a big snowplow on the front of the ship.

        • #2679658
          Avatar photo

          Well with convential thinking

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Yes you can but the problem comes

          The speeds being talked about here are quite fast and interstellar distances at those sppeeds are small in comparision to the distance covered every second.

          You could quite possibly run into a Solar System very quickly but if they are some what similar to this one there will be a outer layer of astroids that you would have to avoid before entering this system and that is where the main danger would come from. There has got to be a better means of traveling through space rather than just relying on speed alone perhaps some form of “Space Folding” would be a better alternative where you fold the space in front of your ship then scan over the fold and just travel a few feet, yards, miles or whatever to tranverse the distances involved but without the speed.

          I think it’s time we started thinking outside the “Box” on this one as we need a different approch.

        • #2679598

          2 Drive systems

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Yes you can but the problem comes

          One supralight interstellar drive, one impulse type drive for controlled flight while in system.

          Go fast up the the heliosphere of the target system, stop and scan. Listen for radio emissions from the planets (SETI, but up close). Plot a safe path above the plane of the ecliptic, and then drop down on the planet of interest.

          Before setting up shop, one might also look around for the odd asteroid that might come along and terraform one’s potential new home.

          There’s a lot to do before blundering on into a new system. I don’t think anybody plans to run supralight straight into orbit.

          As for bending space, or exploiting existing bends in space, yup, that would be better….

        • #2679585

          Conventional thinking and Warp Drive

          by generalist ·

          In reply to Yes you can but the problem comes

          Consider ‘warp’ drive to be a way of folding space so you can violate the ‘laws’ of physics when going past the Einsteinian ‘barrier’ of the speed of light. To understand how such a thing would work and to engineer a way to use the technique would require a different level of understanding of how the universe(s) work.

          For that matter, if you have ‘warp’ drive you may also have sensors that use some of the same engineering to ‘see’ what is ahead so that you don’t have to worry about running into things in sub-space.

          For a more down to Earth comparision, consider the differences and similarities between horseback riding and jet travel.

          Hay burning horses provide motive power while the human eyeball does the command level sensing of the route ahead. This level of technology is well understood but is totally inadequate when it comes to the much faster and longer range abilities of jet travel.

          In jet travel, you have a completely different system of motive power and additional ‘senses’ that allow you to deal with the extra speed jet travel provides. A century and a half ago, when horses were a primary mode of transportation, jets were the equivalent of science fiction.

          A century and a half from now, warp drive and warp capable sensors may become reality.

      • #3364247

        Exactly

        by oldefar ·

        In reply to OK this has been driving me slightly more

        We are wrestling with a scenario using Type 0 logic, when in fact it is an advanced Type 1 or early Type 2 situation. That being the case, if we assume an equivelent to Moore’s Law or even technical advancement rate of the 20th century, the 35 year journey would allow Earth to have increased its technical capability at some magnitude and actually have a later version team meet the arrival. Radical!

        I am convinced – its all moving way too quick for this old dog. Time for a bit of Mexico. Catch you when I get back!

      • #3363920

        Nearest Star

        by generalist ·

        In reply to OK this has been driving me slightly more

        Our nearest neighboring star is about 4.3 light years away, not 100. So 35 years wouldn’t be too unreasonable, even without warp drive.

        Of course, if you are selecting the nearest star of the right type with habitable planets around it, you may have to look a little further. But there are a fair number of stars within a reasonable distance.

        Also note that as you approach the speed of light, time dialation starts to play a factor in things. Ships time could be 35 years while the actual distance traveled could be a lot more.

      • #3363919

        4.5 not 100

        by joe leverone ·

        In reply to OK this has been driving me slightly more

        The closest star is about 4.5 light years or so away, not 100. I don’t know how far it is to the nearest extra-solar planet, though.

        • #3376601
          Avatar photo

          As the whole discussion was about traveling

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to 4.5 not 100

          To a planet and possible settiling on it I thought that was the whole idea of the discussion and I didn’t bother with the nearest Star just the nearest known Solar Systen that might have a planet capable of supporting humonid life.

        • #3376534

          We took you at your word

          by generalist ·

          In reply to As the whole discussion was about traveling

          We took you at your word when you said ‘nearest star’ without adding the qualifier of ‘with a reasonable chance of having a useful planetary system around it.’ There are, unfortunately, too many people out there who have no idea of the distances involved in interstellar space travel. (Call it a knee-jerk reaction.)

          It looks like there are a few of the discussion members that know at least something about astronomy and/or science fiction. Of course, given the advances in technology and astrophysics, what we know is changing fairly quickly. What was science fiction is becoming science fact or being shown to be completely wrong. It is interesting watching the progression.

        • #2678185
          Avatar photo

          You are certianly right there

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to We took you at your word

          With all the new ideas that are coming out right now it is an interesting time.

          But then again I reminded of an achient chinese curse “May you live in interesting times!”

          But with the way our knolledge is changing right now what may be possible within a few years is an unknown but then again those very clever fellows at Cambridge just might prove that the speed of Light isn’t constant so we will have to go back and start from scratch again as currently all out observations are based on that theroy.

          But you are perfectly correct what was Science Fiction a few years ago is now Science Fact but not only that it is in mass use as well. So all these new developments aren’t confined to a few but made available for the masses if this continues the speed of gaining new knolledge will only increase.

          An interesting thought don’t you agree?

    • #3364246

      My thoughts

      by 1stladytech ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      Sorry I have not posted, little boys and Halloween and such. I thought that I would add some of my comments to the fray, since it is a discussion that I have had with many people over the years.

      I would initially populate the ship with more “worker” types than “learned” types. Meaning, I want repairmen, not engineers, farmers and not productivity specialists. The main reason for this is that I have found during my life that the person that actually has to do the work is usually better equiped to roll with the punches and make something work when everything is not perfect. The farmer can figure out how to get something running again, without being down for two weeks in order to get the crop in, the engineer never seems to understand the time constraints that the rest of us work under. In some areas, such as medical, you have to have more schooling, but again – I would take a good general family practitioner over a specialist in any field. Most of the people on the ship would be adults – as stated earlier in the discussion – you can expect to have children born in route if you aren’t in suspended animation. The adults choosen would also have to be natural teachers – as their skill sets would have to be transferred to the younger generations, many through the apprentiship.

      You do have to make certain assumptions – such as the ability to get there in 35 years would take more technology than we currently have. So assuming that we could make the trip – a data stream would be sent from the ship back to earth to keep the good people at home apprasied of what we are doing/encountering during the trip and on the surface. Since we can send it we should also be able to receive data from earth.

      If the colonists were not able to be suspended, then the ship would have to be self-sustaining in regards to air/water/food. This could be accomplished with green-house type arraingements using plants and animals to do many of the functions that we currently use chemicals/machines to perform. The danger in this type of approach is in our plantand/or animal lifeforms getting turned loose in the new environment. This could cause much damage to an ecosystem that we know nothing about. Perhaps the greenhouse could be designed to remain contained once on the surface – possible expanded in order to sustain the new colony during the building phase with command and known food substances.

      As far as gravity – the ship could be built in a circular shape that would spin as it travels through space. Hypothetically – that would generate a near earth type gravity field. It would also allow for more space/area to perform the functions required for a ship of this size.

      Vickie

      • #3364208
        Avatar photo

        Perhaps it would be better

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to My thoughts

        To leave the main ship in orbit containing these items in a permant orbit and shuttle down the colinists to avoid contaminating the new planet.

        So we could have a two stage ship one for the main jorney and the smaller unit for transport from the orbiting station to the planet. But remember that there would have to be something better than conventional Radio as it has time constraints on it and only travels at light speed so it would take years to reach earth and as long to get the responce.

        • #3363908

          Message pods

          by generalist ·

          In reply to Perhaps it would be better

          While radio would be much too slow, if some form of FTL drive exists, you could always send message pods back on a regular basis. The technology that got the ship to the distant location in 35 years might be able to be used for a mechanical ‘carrier pigeon’ that doesn’t have to worry about low G constraints.

          Or, if you want to borrow from various science fiction book, we might find that telepathy exists under the right conditions and can cross interstellar distances instantaneously. (Heinlein and McCaffrey both cover this concept.)

    • #3364241

      Existing occupants?

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      There are several possibilites of what might be encountered in terms of any existing population which might be on the planet. Here are my suggestions as to how to proceed given these various possibilities:

      1. The planet is uninhabitied: obvious course of action, learn how to survive, colonise and multiply.

      2. The planet has an existing, but relatively unevolved humanoid life form. The approach should be to attempt communication with these people, and learn what they have learnt over perhaps many millennia on how to survive from the existing natural resources on the planet.

      3: The occupants are hostile, and attempt to destroy the would-be colonists. Failing negotiation, it would be a fight to the death.

      4: The occupants are obviously intelligent, but bear no resemblance to humans. The procedure: try and communicate that the space crew have no hostile intentions, and endeavour to establish a colony of humans, living in harmony with the aliens.

      5: The inhabitants are much more highly evolved than humans. They are suspicious, but not outright hostile. This would be a case for diplomacy, and hopefully the humans could integrate into the alien society, or agree to live as a separate community.

      • #3364237

        Thought of that

        by 1stladytech ·

        In reply to Existing occupants?

        Actually, that was the next post that I was going to do, how to tell what lifeforms are on the new planet and which ones are intelligent? If they are humanoid – will we be able to communicate with them, or will they even want to communicate with us? What happens if the lifeforms that controll the planet are not anything familiar to us (silican based “plant” life – non mobile) will we try to eat them for supper and start a war?

        That is why my original intent was to observe and not interact with the found environment any more than absolutly necessary. Until you can figure out what is going on, you don’t know what will make things better for your group and what will make it worse. Time spent up front, observing could be the best time spent in the entire endevour.

        Thank you for bringing it up – I was wondering if anyone would.

        Vickie

      • #3364235

        Some Random Thoughts on the matter…

        by nicholasclayg ·

        In reply to Existing occupants?

        The biggest reason for needing to colonize space is a closed and shrunken world. But it seems you can never prove a negative until it is far too late in the game. But I will a few, again.

        I once read that primitive Man needed around five square miles of territory per person living for adequate support. That now civilized man,
        thanks to great advances in science and technology over the ages, needs only some square feet in measurement, rather than square miles, per person for adequate support. This is as wrong as wrong can be. Modern Man needs thousands of square miles per person to support a single person in our age and, of course, most aren’t getting their space. What is ignored is that territory per person now overlaps into other people’s territory savagely more now than at any time before in the history of Man.

        Take a look at anything in your home or workplace you use, including the food you eat. You will probably find that more than 90 percent of everything you have was produced at a distance far more than just a few miles away. People hundreds and thousands of miles distant from you reach directly into your life, manipulating your life directly, as if they right there next to
        you to do it. Powers and reach of each human living has increased two million fold over primitive Man, so an Osama bin Laden, or a Sadam Hussein, or a Hillary Clinton, or a delegate to a conference in Genova or Durbin you think you can dismiss as having no control over you, can reach out and touch you immediately, if not sooner, immediately and forcibly, from Afghanistan,
        Iraq, Washington, Genoa, and Durbin, not in sequence mind you, but all imposing directly upon you, and anything having to do with you, at once.

        A mass murderer, innumerable murderers now, no longer subject to capital punishment, can literally reach outside their sanctuary of life imprisonment in their prison cell practically anywhere in this closed and shrunken world,
        and terrorize you and yours, terrorizing the world. Even they have the power, and the reach, we all do now; all humans have now.
        Ten thousand good people, doing ten thousand different utterly legal things, all unaware of what all the rest are doing, and all unaware of you, can altogether in accidental concert in sum total of what they are each doing utterly legally and unmindfully, now perform–much more immediately and efficiently–a concerted criminal act upon you and yours that destroys your life, destroys all order in your life and probably very many others too in the world at the same time. Primitive Man separated in territory, put as much distance as possible between differences, because of this. More than just primitive Man, all life separates because of this, territorializes because of this, puts as much distance as possible between differences because of this (banishing or exiting because of this, for order).

        There are whole peoples that your rendition of peace and order will destroy their lives, and keep on destroying their lives regardless of your
        continual patches to the rendition of peace and order, by means of its sheer complexity. Every good thing you do turns out bad for them. Every change you make to what you do to change that outcome, just worsens things for them.
        They are expected to take it peacefully and orderly and constantly, or just die and go away. They do, then finally they don’t. They are walled-in, all frontier of exodus forbidden them, forbidden all mankind, so their choice is
        limited by your iron curtain to only one choice, their options are limited by your iron curtain to only one option. Destroy you, utterly and
        completely. Between liberty and death, you’ve given them the choice of death, and they take it. They choose to take you with them. Your last patch
        to your now too complex rendition of keeping peace and order, your last option to better things for them instead of worsening things, was to commit suicide, and you didn’t choose to choose that option.

        An asteroid passed by the Earth some years ago, the richest composition of which was discovered to be about a trillion and half dollars worth of
        precious metals. A trillion and a half dollars. What a capture it would have been, some people thought. Only thing is, without the colonization of space, without colonies in space, the capture would have dropped precious metal worth right through the floor by flooding a closed world’s markets with it. It would have bankrupted every holder of precious metals, specifically the
        exchange in precious metals between all the world’s governments. With colonies in space, though, the capture would have been a universal bonanza, growing those colonies actually, precious metals retaining their precious
        value throughout the enlarged, and enlarging, system. We will suffer the
        same problem of instantaneous devaluation of the final product below costs to get it, or produce it, or to do a thing, anything, whatever that thing might be, pertaining to any resource from space of any kind, barring the
        colonization of space, barring a matching expansion of the system into which
        the resource or service is to be input into or used by, that is.

        Life must always be in the business of prospering, of getting ahead, just
        to survive (just to break even). Colonization is a greater prosperity for a greater number, universally. It fills a vacuum, and it creates countless vacuums behind it, in its wake, to be filled. Only pestilence, war, famine and death–and the destruction of what was that these terrible things accomplish–is frontier colonization’s equal for creating mass vacuums. Our government’s talk of raising up Afghanistan to economic viability, so to settle it down socially, equals the talk years ago of raising up Haiti to economic viability. We are losing thousands of workers to underimployment and unemployment almost on a per day basis, from world recession, universal recession. Yet we are talking of putting the Afghans to work in all their mass to settle them down socially, just as we did the Haitians. After billions were spent in attempting to make Haiti economically viable, it is where it was before we started, if not worse off. Exactly where did the billions of our tax–and government prodded private–dollars go? WE certainly don’t have the money anymore. Haiti doesn’t have the money, the Haitians don’t have the money, nor any of the infrastructure and industries the money was supposed to seed. Now we’ve moved on to Afghanistan and the Afghan people with the same plan. There isn’t any vacuums for them to fill. No vacuums whatsoever. No frontier colonization. FORBIDDEN! Weapons are forbidden in space. Translation, mankind is forbidden colonization of space and getting loose in space. Things WILL remain perfect for an Aristide and an Osama bin Laden, and a Saddam Hussein and a Mugabe (Zimbabwe), and every other criminal, barbarian, and savage type living. The martial law police state (the space frontier), the concentration camp world inside the police state’s iron curtain (Earth), is automatically their natural state, their perfectly natural, perfectly fertile, turf in which to keep on rising from the dead like the phoenix, breeding like flies.

        And that is that.

        • #3364207
          Avatar photo

          You have a fairly negitive view of things

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Some Random Thoughts on the matter…

          Don’t you? But allas you’re right until we as a race put our limited self interest behind us and work for the universal good things will only remain the same.

          However I do disagree with you’re ideas that improving the lives of the masses will adversly affect some it will destroy them so they don’t have the following that they currently have. Even Bin Ladden was a guttless wonder who had to send others to do his dirty work. Once you remove the sorce of the problem you remove the means for these people to carry out their ideals. Remember very few of our so called leaders are willing to place themselves in “Harms Way” they are however perfectly willing for others to get there and issue orders to this effect but they will never be in a position of leading the attack. So if we where to improve the position of most people around the place the breeding grounds would just dry up with matters for the cause. But we first have to find a way to improve things rather than channel more and more money into wealthy peoples pockets at the expence of the masses.

    • #3364223

      Any volunteers please?

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      Throughout history explorers have sought new land masses, new areas of the globe suitable for colonisation, and potentially new resources. Many, many explorers have died, along with their support groups.
      Perhaps many were driven by sheer curiosity. But in comparison with our current hypothetical scenario, they had two things that the one-way space travellers would not. They were trekking/sailing on familiar elements. They also had the hope of the possiblity of completing their tour of discovery, and returning home to their loved ones and familiar setting.

      The space travellers are being transported through a vaccuum (or whatever exists between solid masses in space) and could not even step outside for the luxury of a pee.

      The original postulation does not assume the capability of either returning to earth, or transmitting information to earth.

      Monkeys went up in space before humans were prepared to risk their lives. All that the space travellers know is that a planet has been analysed as having a suitable environment for human habitation.

      So there is no likelihood of being able to return to earth, or of sending any informatin gained back to earth.

      It is in effect a suicide mission. “Let’s travel to the unknown, with no guarantee of survival, or the means to transmit any new knowledge back to earth.”

      I therefore postulate that the crew and passengers would either have to consider that there were no posibilities for them to find new experiences on earth, or they would have to be conditioned to believe that they were serving some noble cause.

      So to “ladytech” and the others who have contributed to this discussion I will ask the question: has your life become so meaningless that you would risk throwing it away for some venture which would most likely separate you from your loved ones, kin and familiar environment for ever, and in no way add to the storehouse of knowledge on earth?

      • #3363918

        Meaningless life?

        by generalist ·

        In reply to Any volunteers please?

        Considering that we’re a good thirty or more years from such a voyage, I can’t really say that your argument about a meaningless life really applies.

        Now if the ship were ready to go and a passenger list was being compiled, it might apply. But with a VERY limited amount of passenger space, you could fill the ship several hundred times over with those people who really want to live on another planet that is not in this solar system.

        Curiosity is a wonderful thing. So is the thrill of going where no one has gone before, even if it is a one way trip.

      • #3363910

        Answer: Hell Yeah!!!

        by jkaras ·

        In reply to Any volunteers please?

        I dont care who you are or where you’ve grown up but everyone desires to matter, make a difference, and live life to it’s fullest. The opprotunity to create a better world is far more appealing than trying to correct years of problems that people in power wont correct due to loss of power or money. If you could have been one of our fore fathers when creating the U.S.A regardless of how it turned out later, can you honestly tell me that you wouldnt have wanted an opprotunity to create a better place? The desire to create your vision of a world appeals to everyone’s ego and if not youre lying. No matter how good life is it still could be better. Do you think you will miss anything different if you left Earth? I think nothing will change for the better or the worse just a different flavor, history tends to repeat itself so if you are creating history the things you do will continue giving you a sense of imortality like your children having children so to speak.

      • #3376685

        Knowledge gain

        by 1stladytech ·

        In reply to Any volunteers please?

        is the main thing that I would be attracted to. I am not disillusioned, nor is my life meaningless, yet I don’t only want to learn things that will directly translate into material gain. For me the gain of knowledge is an end to itself, and the main attraction to learning something (or exploring something) is the fact that I don’t know the first thing about it. Personally, I would be one of the first to volunteer for a mission of this nature, if nothing else than the thrill of going. But the opportunity to gain an insight into a different ecosystem, possible similar to ours in a different stage of development (either earlier or later) would be a powerful draw. It would be interesting to watch a different population as it developed to see if it makes the same mistakes and gains that ours has. And at the same time it would be quite an eye opener to see a similar culture in a more advanced state – possibly to see where ours might end up.

        My biggest fear would be the war like nature of our culture. Several posts have mentioned posting guards first, before doing anything else. While I recognize that this would be the prudent thing to do for many reasons, it also would set the tone for any encounters that we might have with an indiginous population. By taking a war like stance, we could expect a war like response in return.

        The colonists did not, for the most part, encounter hostile native people on this continent until after they had responded to their presence with guns and destruction. Indeed, most of the Native Indians tried to help the Pilgrams to survive. It was due to the European response that the early colonalists had such a hard time.

        By observing the native habitat and indiginous lifeforms, we would gain a greater understanding of the planet and what we could expect from said lifeforms. Many here have taken a ego-centric view of what we will find and how we would operate in the new colony. I find that sadly expected.

      • #3376653

        Various motivations acknowedged …

        by jardinier ·

        In reply to Any volunteers please?

        I would say that I have only experienced a trillionth of the opportunities for discovery, adventure, gaining knowledge and accomplishment which still await me on earth.
        Anyone who would opt for the potentially dead-end space venture would, I imagine, feel that they have exhausted the possibilities for new stimulation, knowledge and creativity on earth.
        What fortunate people these must be, to have had such fulfilling lives that there are no more opportunites or challenges available on earth.

        As for “creating a better society,” I outgrew that illusion about three decades ago. I doubt that human nature will change for the better just because a group of individuals are plonked in an unformatted environment. Wherever we go, we take ourselves with us.

        But I am not a party pooper. Enjoy your adventure, and don’t forget to send me a postcard describing the utopia you have created on a virgin planet.

      • #3376498

        Count me in

        by jimhm ·

        In reply to Any volunteers please?

        Yea – I would go – what’s keeping me here .. Exploration is cool – and fun.. hey and when you die you all go to the same place… and see everyone anyway…

        To Cool of an adventure… to miss out on .

    • #3364183

      COLONIZATION = WORM VIRUS

      by fluxit ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      Hysterically, this colonization of foreign places combined with the thought that our universe is digitally organized makes us no more than a computer virus ? a worm. We are self-replicating entities that copy ourselves around then ultimately cause damage the host system.

      The entire Universe basically boils down to information such as PI, natural number, universal beauty ratio, DNA, and ultimately Quantum Information. The bottom line is that the rest of the Universe is not much different than what we find on our own planet, Earth. The presentation of this information may be different but other than that the Universe is consistent. And because this information may be organized differently there be physical phenomenon we have not observed yet and by traveling we could gain this knowledge.

      However, if we realize that knowledge is nothing more than a line-of-logic resulting from processed information, an unobserved line-of-logic could be run here on Earth with sufficiently powerful enough computers, quantum computers that Feynman suggested. I am not confident that by traveling to observe some unknown phenomenon or colonize a foreign place humanity could gain from it. Although there is a degree of romanticism that appeals to the adventure and danger one would encounter.

      I have this Indiana Jones desire within my own digital framework. I’ll provide more later.

      • #3364175

        Alien Women

        by nicholasclayg ·

        In reply to COLONIZATION = WORM VIRUS

        Lets focus on the desert aspect, how bout some well endowed alien women lol

        • #3364152

          DUDE, WHERE’S MY BABE?

          by fluxit ·

          In reply to Alien Women

          Imagine a world where quantum computers could organize information into the best Hooters Restaraunt around!

          Dude, we could make a million. If not with a quantum computers but with the movie rights! We could beam it back to Earth and make them jealous.

        • #3364150

          Earth Girls Are Easy

          by nicholasclayg ·

          In reply to DUDE, WHERE’S MY BABE?

          Earth Girls Are Easy! << It sounded good at the time so I am saying it with absolutely no evidence whatsoever- the end.

    • #3364069

      My dreams realized

      by jkaras ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      Finally I can own the world!!!! It’s mine screw the Earth! I reach into my heritage and claim the mud ball as mine and run all indigenous life away. I’ll name the cities Jeffsburg, Jeffington, Jeff D.C., and New Jeffro to name a few. I’ll create a harem where all the cream of the crop women will be my concubines. All money will have my face on it. Instead of church on sunday’s it will be an orgy that would schame Nero. I’ll have free heath care, same living conditions, hedonism will be the new religion so stress will be less and the children wont be molested. Any murderer will be executed, no insurance, and politians will have to make a difference or be fired. I of course will have the only weapons to police the populace where they will be destroyed upon my death, a heart monitor that will remotley detonate the weapons when my heart stops. The space program will be incouraged with kids going into space as field trips to stimulate interest in adventures. I could go on and on, ahh dreams.

      • #3376431

        Then

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to My dreams realized

        You cross to the next massive crater and realize you’re about the size of a mite in comparisson to the inhabitants of this said planet.

        They reach down to pick you up and see what you’re all about, but then realize your just a dumb human from that tiny planet they visited two thousand years ago and squish you between thumb and forefinger. They then go find a can of SPACE RAID to rid themselves of any more pests that may turn up.

        So much for those plans!

        • #3376425

          WHY OZ?

          by jkaras ·

          In reply to Then

          Why dump on my utopia of absolute control and debotchery? Hedonism running rampant, orgys, hell the aliens can join if they are able, I’m no snob, Kirk wasnt!!! If they are as big and bad as you say I’m sure I’m aware enough to notice Godzilla coming despite my distractions. Ever since Moonraker I always wondered the possibility of the horizontal hula in space, the thought of actually bumping off the walls during the act sounds as fun as funny. If I get “squished” I hope a make a mess that ticks them off or get 1 good bite in like a fire ant.

        • #2678368

          Sorry to dump on your fantasy

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to WHY OZ?

          I was just trying to follow the order of the techie geek.
          You see, this discussion was posed as such an OPEN topic there is little or no room for argument, it’s well thought out.
          I noticed that some can’t fantasize, they immediately start talking about astronomy, the speed of light etc. instead of letting their minds wander.

          To then read your fantastic post I simply had to shed a reality on the fantasy.

          You know, no matter how much time I spend in these discussions, I’ll never figure out the techie geek mind. I don’t watch star trek (I actually thought it sucked after the womanizing Kirk moved on {if we can’t screw it, kill it}.

          If there were GIGANTIC beings, can you imagine trying to describe those titties to an Earthling?

        • #2678360

          Fantasizing and tech geeks

          by generalist ·

          In reply to Sorry to dump on your fantasy

          Hey, just because someone talks about astronomy and the speed of light doesn’t mean that they can’t fantasize.

          It may, in my case, mean that they have a lot of different interests, some of which happen to be astronomy, physics, and/or Star Trek. As a result of these interests, when we find a thread of the topic that touches on those areas, we jump in with appropriate trivia, even if it isn’t really on topic.

          Now I can’t really say that I’m a Trekkie or a Trekker, particularly because I haven’t viewed more than a handful of episodes of the later versions of the series. But I’ve read a lot of the books and tend to follow the genre of Trek as an amused bystander.

          And as far as fantasies are concerned, I have frequently imagined how one would build or rebuild civilization if you had to start from scratch with a limited number of technical resources. Those might be considered my technical fantasies.

          My myth-and-magic fantasies would’t really apply here.

        • #2678357

          It wasn’t aimed at you

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Fantasizing and tech geeks

          So therefore it’s OK that you missed my point entirely.

          “Hey, just because someone talks about astronomy and the speed of light doesn’t mean that they can’t fantasize”

          Not my point.

          My point was that SOME people have entered this discussion by trying to debate scientific fact. I think this topic is posted as a discussion of thought, NOT theory or facts. It was more of a WHAT IF scenario.

          I see it all too often when people can’t simply see an pinion for what it is, an opinion. This usually ends up in link posting and arguments over fact. Well, we have NO resources on the subject, NO NONE AT ALL, nobody’s done it yet so everything is speculation. There are NO facts that we can analyze against, again, nobody’s done it so how can we discuss fact.

          So, I think too many people here try to over analyze a situation instead of simply fantasizing or creating a possible reality.

        • #2678350

          Overanalysis

          by generalist ·

          In reply to It wasn’t aimed at you

          I can certainly agree with the observation of people overanalyzing things and debating scientific fact as opposed to considering the possibilities of the topic.

          While some fact does need to be considered, a lot of the “how do we get there” facts should be ignored because we don’t have the technology yet. For the sake of the core discussion, we need to assume that we can get from here to there with a certain amount of resources and that the target location can support human life with work.

          I don’t agree that we totally lack resources on the topic. Good science fiction has lots of well thought out stories of colonizing other planets. The history of our own planet has a fair number of examples of things you can do right and wrong when colonizing new areas. And there are think tanks that have mulled over what it would take to set up colonies in other parts of this solar system.

          While a lot of this information is speculation, a lot of the speculation is based on fact. The chemistry and physics we know on this planet and solar will probably apply to other planets and other solar systems. Water would flow downhill. Winds blow based on geography and ‘solar’ influx. Basic chemical reactions work the same way in similar environments.

          Of course, we may find that certain common elements we find on Earth are rare on other planets due to how they were formed. Imagine a place where gold is as common as dirt and aluminum is a rare element. That would really have an impact on a number of things.

          The possibilities are fascinating.

        • #2678356

          It wasn’t aimed at you

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Fantasizing and tech geeks

          So therefore it’s OK that you missed my point entirely.

          “Hey, just because someone talks about astronomy and the speed of light doesn’t mean that they can’t fantasize”

          Not my point.

          My point was that SOME people have entered this discussion by trying to debate scientific fact. I think this topic is posted as a discussion of thought, NOT theory or facts. It was more of a WHAT IF scenario.

          I see it all too often when people can’t simply see an pinion for what it is, an opinion. This usually ends up in link posting and arguments over fact. Well, we have NO resources on the subject, NO NONE AT ALL, nobody’s done it yet so everything is speculation. There are NO facts that we can analyze against, again, nobody’s done it so how can we discuss fact.

          So, I think too many people here try to over analyze a situation instead of simply fantasizing or creating a possible reality.

        • #2678359

          Scale fantasies

          by generalist ·

          In reply to Sorry to dump on your fantasy

          Assume that a mite is a thirty second of an inch tall relative to the typical human. Then assume that the typical human is six feet tall.

          If the proportions remain the same, that GIGANTIC creature with the Space Raid is about 2300 times your side.

        • #2678354

          Scale fantasies – More math

          by generalist ·

          In reply to Scale fantasies

          At that size, the GIGANTIC creature is about 2.6 miles tall. Depending upon whose boobs you’re using as an example of body to height proportions, they could begin at about 1700 feet in diameter.

          If I recall, the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York were about 1250 feet tall. That provides one mental measure you could compare against.

          Imagine these GIGANTIC people wearing a simple double bar decoration handing from the neck where the double bars are the size of the twin towers. It would be a heck of a site.

        • #2677967

          Stop it

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Scale fantasies – More math

          You’re getting me all excited ! 🙂

        • #2678319

          To the contrary

          by 1stladytech ·

          In reply to Sorry to dump on your fantasy

          the whole thing is to provoke fantasy and analytical thought processes. Their are always the people that immeditatly go to the engineering aspects of how and with what in order to accomplish the nuts and bolts of the trip. But since it is purely conjecture – they have to fantasize on what to build with or how to get there. I have been enjoying the posts here, several things have been brought up that are different than other discussions that I have had before.

          But to put a little cold water on your fantasies – what if it is the men of the planet that are well endowed and the women of the planet look like mud fences in a rain storm? That would be more to my liking!

        • #2677949

          Oh NO!!

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to To the contrary

          Not a woman’s opinion! Just kidding Vickie.
          If I spent 30 years travelling across space and finally rached my destination to only find men with gargantuan weenies (I’d pull out mine and embarass them all, uh…..yeah.)I’d do one of three things.
          1) ask them where their mothers and sisters were.
          2) (failing to find a suitable mammoth woman)I’d climb right back in my space pod/ship and keep going.
          3) I’d send a message back to earth. “Goodyear, forget about car tires, forget about the blimp. Get your ass out here and start making Twin Towers sized condoms!”

          🙂

    • #3376491

      Just another idea…

      by mrbill- ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      Ok, here are a few ideas I had. I don’t know how possible it would be, but just something to kill time.

      50 years prior to mission high speed probes would be sent to any prospective systems within 20 light years. On arrival they would search for a habitable planet(s), scan for signs of habitation, water, vegetation, weather? The whole time transmitting data back so a decision could be made as to where to go. Construction of the ship would take most of those years. It would have enough storage to supply the pioneers for the 35 year journey and 35 years after arrival, enough time to get established. The ship would also carry all the knowledge that is available, in various formats.

      The crew training would start at age 0. Take 50 newborns (30/20 F/M) into a controlled training environment, teach them everything they will need to know, multi-role them, no one is a specialist in just one field. Education would be the number one skill of everyone, they will be teaching the generations that follow. Physical training would be intense, psychological just as intense; it will be a long mission. Limit contact with the outside world.

      When they reach age 20, pick the top 20 of the group, 12 female 8 male, and start the reproduction cycle. Five years later send them on their way. During the journey they will reproduce and train the following generations. The offspring would, at first, be controlled to 60% females, through artificial insemination only if required. Each female would have 5 children, first generation is 60 (36/24 F/M) the next generation would be 180 (108/72 F/M). After arrival the control would come off. Nature will re-equalize the balance. There would be 20 60 year olds, 60 35-40 year olds, and 180 10-20 year olds.

      The form of government would be pseudo-communist, democratic. Each 20+ year old person would have an equal vote. All resources would be shared as needed.

      On arrival they would spend 5 years in orbit scouting the planet to find the best site. Trips would be made down to gather samples for testing. This would give them the time to start a 3rd generation. Over the course of the next 35 years they will transfer down to the planet. The colonies would be spread out over many small communities with a central distribution point/meeting place.

      • #3376448

        bring the gene pool with them

        by road-dog ·

        In reply to Just another idea…

        The genetic diversity answer could come in the form of frozen fertilized eggs. Each colonist couple would bear two offspring from the canned gene pool and then as many natural offspring as desired.

        As for government, democracy doesn’t work under survival conditions. There is danger of factionalization in democracy, which could doom the expedition should a “civil war” arise. Communism is a bad fit for the situation, if the Plymouth colony was any example.

        Better a military command structure bound to transition to democratize when the colony reaches phase II, or self sufficiency with only a small reliance on stored provisions.

        Technology permitting, this would all be easier if we develop wormhole technology. Maybe we should just send the colonists with a stargate to be set up at the far end. If the stargate fails, then they would be self sufficient as a backup plan..

        • #3376435

          How many colonists?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to bring the gene pool with them

          “Each colonist couple would bear two offspring from the canned gene pool and then as many natural offspring as desired.”

          This would only make humane sense if there were MANY, MANY couples. Otherwise they’ll end up with Jerry Springer in Space.
          It’s exactly the same with purebred animals. Prebred dogs, for example, have more medical problems and diseases than mutts. I see this is as due to the over strained gene pool, whereas a mut will not only live longer but will have a better ability to fight off infection and disease.

          Now if we take say, 60 couples and breed 6 billion humans, how many will be normal as to how many will be sick, diseased or even deformed due to inbreeding?

        • #3376419

          Do not need many

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to How many colonists?

          In my idea there are 108/72 F/M. There would be no controls on F/M anymore. The chance of inbreeding is almost nil. If you bring “canned” prefertiziled ova like RD says you increase the available gene pool and reduce the chances more. If you control who “breeds” with who, no jimmy you cannot marry your sister this isn’t alabama (sorry bama), you can keep the mutations to a minimum, maybe even better than we currently have on earth. If a genetic mutation occurs then those parents would not be able to have children together. If they have them with others and a mutation occurs, then whichever one cuased the problem would be removed from the gene pool. No not eliminated, this isn’t Earth anymore. Maybe sterilized. I know it’s harsh but we have to think about the good of the species.

        • #2678364

          Feasible

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Do not need many

          Your numbers make a little more sense. I’d pictured the whole Adam and Eve revisited thing!

          2 people, have at ‘er, we need scientists, teachers, students, ice cream vendors, IT staff etc.

          EEEEEEEEEEEW!

          As for sterilitzation, that would definitely put and end to the Jerry Springer show.

        • #2678361

          Putting an end to the Jerry Springer show

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to Feasible

          would be more than enough to justify the cost of the project.

          As for the scientists, teachers, students, ice cream vendors, IT staff etc… we would have all the knowledge available and all the “ship crew” the original 260 people, would be able to train their offspring. And the knowledge would be there whenever anyone needed it. Of course they would need a highspeed sub-space comm link to M$ for the required monthly updates.

        • #2678174
          Avatar photo

          But by then

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Putting an end to the Jerry Springer show

          M$ might of got their act together and be actually producing things that work as described on the packet.

          Other wise I’d personally go with the Gene Pool way and probably at first an artificial means of bringing thses fotesus to birth if not actually putting them in some sought of accelerated growth process.

          After all we already have that technology now for IVF and the like so it is only a small step to an artificial Womb for want of a better word. With this type of technology there would not need to be all that many on the ship and it could be loaded with more supplies that weren’t used for the trip. Whenever I started a project I always had a sign above my desk that just read KISS {Keep It Simple Stupid.}

          This would be the best way of transfering a whole comunity to the new planet with a very small outlay in resources and if everything went to hell on the way very few would be lost r could die. I know it will not be popular with the Church but it will come and probably within our lifetimes. After all we now have the technology to clone a Human Being so it is only a short step from there to a more progressive means of reproduction.

        • #2677962

          Artificially generated embryos

          by generalist ·

          In reply to Putting an end to the Jerry Springer show

          There is a science fiction book by a writer named James Hogan that brought up the possibility of a space ship being sent to a nearby solar system and carrying along a system that would allow it to create ‘artificial’ embryos based on human genetics. The end ‘product’ was fully human and didn’t have any connection to prior society other than was was in the training programs of the ‘soft’ robots that were caretakers.

          The book, “Voyage from Yesteryear”, puts an interesting spin on technology and how it could lead to a change in how society could operate IF you can set aside the influences of history and existing society.

        • #2677948

          Of course they would need a highspeed …

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Putting an end to the Jerry Springer show

          Can I take back my last comment and keep Springer over Gates?

        • #2677853
          Avatar photo

          Actually I wasn’t think along those lines but

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Putting an end to the Jerry Springer show

          It sounds interesting I’ll grab a copy of the book and try to read it some time or at least it will go in The To Do Pile along with the other things that I never seem to get around to doing. But the book does sound interesting.

          But I was thinking more along the lines of frozen embroys and the like that where produced in vitro and then artificially grown bu some means except for the last bit we already have that technology and it would remove them from any outside infulence but your suggestion has some merit and it bears thinking about.

    • #3376456

      Colonization or inbred Jed?

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      The obvious answer is man’s natural instinct for survivalresulting in colonization. In order to reduce the medical, social and physical problems this would need to be done by bringing MANY humans to the planet in order to reproduce without incest which would result in sickness, social deficiencies and possible deformities.

      It’s the same as the worlds last two remaining survivors on a deserted island, would you really want to be around to see the next race evolve?

      Given the undestanding that I wouldn’t be reproducing from my OWN family, I feel colonization is the only answer to longevity, unless another suitable life form already exists on the planet. If another life form DID exist, it would be interesting to see what kind of hybrid human/alien would be born.

      Humans aren’t THAT intelligent, are doubtfully the smartest race in the universe (those who think we are the only intelligent life form, sound pretty arrogant to me), who’s to say that another planet wouldn’t be better without human civilization?

      By sending data back to Earth, perhaps man on Earth can learn to live peacefully or at least discover better resources for fuel, food etc. Perhaps a new race or breed of hybrid human would appeal to others on Earth, and they would in turn take the journey to join a new civilization.

      Who’s to say WE are doing it right? Why start a new civilization on another planet and simply reproduce the mess we have here? I think it would be best used as a way of gathering higher intelligence, and understanding our OWN planet better in order to make our OWN civilization better.

      Now as you say, this is good for backyard barbeque chat, I see a few good fights that way, but maybe after having a few beers, people would feel differently and voice different opinions than those shared here?!

    • #2677990

      The Star Trek scenario …

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      The Star Trek scenario (Next Generation especially) is set in an idealised and probably unrealistic set of parameters. For a start, humans on their home planet have outgrown the need for wars, and I gather general survival pressures, so the only challenges are to be sought beyond Earth.

      Additionally all officers, apart from personal idiosyncrasies, have perhaps unrealistically flawless characters overall. I actually see the series as a study in how humans respond to unexpected situations, the Science Fiction aspect being of secondary importance to the study of human nature.

      What I observe in the series, above all else, is that when one of the officers succumbs to a human frailty, the other members pull together to compensate and help the fellow officer survive the temporary deviation from “normal” behaviour. Possibly the term “symbiosis” could be applied to the senior crew in toto.

      The responses from TR members in this discussion are from “normal” humans as distinct from idealised ones. Hence, perhaps, the eagerness of some postings to ignore the concept of the Prime Directive altogether. We are not the idealised humans of the science fiction series.

      • #2677960

        Star Trek background

        by generalist ·

        In reply to The Star Trek scenario …

        By the time the Star Trek era arrives, a United Earth might actually be feasible, thus eliminating the need for wars on the planet. After all, if the countries of today are mere member ‘states’ in an organization representing a United Earth, would there be a need for war on the planet?

        It would be like Kansas and Missouri having a war against each other using tanks, planes and troops. Remotely possible but highly unlikely, at least currently.

        Now as far as the officers of Star Fleet are concerned, by the time the Star Trek era arrives, society may have perfected ways of selecting near ‘flawless’ people for important positions and helping them remain that way by training people to provide support when they get too far out of line.

        This ‘social technology’ currently exists in rudimentary form.

        Think of those people who you admire because of their outstanding character. They are a start at being ‘flawless’.

        Then think about those people who help others overcome problems of various types. They would be part of the support network.

        Of course, being television, the directors/producers of the programs have theoretically have full control over what the characters are like. So they can ignore the little flaws and focus on other things.

      • #2677914

        rigid selection criteria

        by road-dog ·

        In reply to The Star Trek scenario …

        The Starfleet Academy is described as a place where the best of the best spend several years being made better.

        I suspect that such an institution would weed out most prominent character flaws using stress, uncertainty, and the occasional unwinnable scenario. Kobyashi Maru

        Xenophobia would be one of those character flaws that manifests itself in misinterpretation of the actions and motives of aliens. Such a thing would be disasterous in “first contact” situations. I’ve always wondered how man will overcome xenophobia if we haven’t yet defeated racism.

        Maybe we should address that before developing warp drive…..

        • #2677770

          On the show

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to rigid selection criteria

          In one episode the Dr?s son weasel, I mean Wes, took part of the SF Academy entrance exam. It did test his abilities to stress, decision making Xeno based reactions?

      • #2677852
        Avatar photo

        But from memory

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to The Star Trek scenario …

        Didn’t Kirk go back in time and bring two whales back to their present to save their planet? It was in one of the movies and the whale specalist who was brought back with Kirk and Co she was going onto a Ocean a Graphic Survey ship to further chart the oceans. Admittely it isn’t mentioned much in the series but there are still plases to explore on Earth even thought the serries is set in space.

        • #2677728

          Magic Monkey~

          by nicholasclayg ·

          In reply to But from memory

          They should make a space ship that houses a magic space monkey who travels through the galaxy on a purple magic carpet singing songs of joy and wisdom to the people of the galaxy. But since sound cannot travel in space, he could carry around a huge white board that has songs of joy pre-written on the board. And when he lands his space ship opens up and the magic space monkey comes out singing songs of joy to the people of the galaxy……

        • #2677693

          OK Nick, what are you on…

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to Magic Monkey~

          Is the air in Denver a little thinner than usual tonight? `:]

    • #2677679

      INteresting timeline of light and the universe

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      While digging for facts to piss on a fellow peer, I stumbled on the following site that has a erally interesting timeline on the origins of light and the universe. Worth a read if you have time, it’s VERY lengthy.

      http://tinyurl.com/tzrw

    • #2679657
      Avatar photo

      But then again

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to The Prime Directive – Or Not?

      Of course there is always another alternative. As it is susposed that this universe started with a ?Big Bang? there is always the possibility that what we conceive as reality is nothing more that some other species letting off a fission weapon!

      If you look at the resulting cloud that forms when one of these items is detonated I?m told that there are lights that appear and then disappear randomly throughout the cloud and eventually disappear before the cloud dissipates. So we all could be the result of one of these detonations and while it is an eternity for us it is only a few minutes for the people who started the whole thing off anyway.

      The random flashes of light could be Galaxies forming living and then destroying themselves all in a few seconds but to any people that evolved on those resulting planets that would be an eternity for them. After all the sun is only a fusion reaction that converts the basic atom into more complex atoms of different kinds. So we all could be living in someone?s else?s destruction of whatever.

      Interesting thought any takers?

      • #2679583

        It works as well as any theory

        by generalist ·

        In reply to But then again

        If you look at the General Theory of Systems, you will find that many of the equations that can be used to describe how the universe(s) work at the micro level can also be used to describe how the universe(s) work at the macro level.

        For example, the chaos of the airflow around a burning match can be described with many of the same equations used to describe the interstellar gas flow around a supernova.

        Given that, it wouldn’t be too far fetched to say that the little ‘bangs’ in the cloud of a nuclear explosion could be small scale universes appearing and then fading away in a fraction of the lifetime of the larger universe.

        Of course this could lead to a string of universes, each of which has subuniverses in it.

      • #2679511

        STAR TREK

        by fluxit ·

        In reply to But then again

        in the 1960’s ran a show in which this concept was played out. The Enterprise flew into a large creature. Anti-body cells in the creature attacked the enterprise as though it were a virus.

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