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Why the Constant Arguing

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Ok, I have my favorite OS…Windows.

Others have theirs…Linux, MAC, Unix, etc.

Why the constant bickering?

If you don’t like my OS, Windows, there are plenty of other choices for you. I don’t discount your choice of OS, so why discount my choice?

I’ve picked my OS that fits my wants and needs the most among other reasons and you’ve picked yours.

It should stop there. I don’t try to “convert” anyone. To each his own.

But the Linux crowd are like a bunch of religious zealots. I’m stupid, uninformed, lazy, dumb, etc if I choose Windows? Why?

If you don’t like Windows, don’t use it. It’s that simple. If you don’t like Microsoft, don’t buy their products. It’s that simple.

But we all have our wants and needs, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. We all make our decisions based on our own situation. Don’t prejudge.

What works for me may or may not work for you. That’s the beauty here…no one is putting a gun to your head.

Topic

For the best answer to this question you need

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

to talk to the expert.

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=189869&messageID=1983205

The constant arguments are down to people like Ernie, there are many on the linux side as well I’ll admit.

They tend to make some sense though ?
LOL

By the way MS is constantly trying to put a gun to our heads at least on the pc front.
They don’t want alternatives, they don’t think alternatives should be available, and they’ve been extremely successful at achieving their desire.

The message you referenced sounds like a troller

In reply to For the best answer to this question you need

Typically when I see people make such glowing absolutist statements about an OS I get skeptical: “Is this guy for real?” What gets me is how many get their hackles up and fall for it hook, line, and sinker. Not trying to be superior. I used to fall for it, too.

I agree. I sound like Rodney King sometimes, “Can’t we all just get along?” I can remember years ago, before a lot of people were on the internet, people used to have what were called “flame wars” about whose computer was better (not which OS). The acts of superiority and the hurling of insults was the same. The thing that was different was there was no moralizing. There were no accusations of being a $hill, or sheep, or supporting a bad company.

I do get the distinct sense from some Linux/OSS advocates that they insist I join them, and I resent that. Since I’m a developer on Windows/.Net, that’s what I see anyway. I’m sure it happens on the other side of the fence as well.

If he is n’t a troll, I’m at a loss

In reply to The message you referenced sounds like a troller

Unless of coure he was really one of our linux loonies making windows afficionados look bad.

LOL

I earn my corn at the moment doing win32 with Delphi, soon possibly to migrate to C# and .NET.

I ‘ve done years on windows, VMS, Linux and HP3000 in mixed environments, I know which box to use to do what.

Try to tell me anyone of them does everything better from an operational point of view and I’ll be suspicious to say the least. To avoid suspicion you’ve got to back up the opinion and I aren’t little Billy who just uses MSN, so facts need to be straight and present.

My favourite server OS is VMS but that might be down to familiarity, I’m pretty much a linux advocate now, if it can do the job use it.

However there still are occasions when windows is the better choice, not necessarily from a technical point of view but definitely from an operational one.

Bill didn’t go for his office automation integration for a laugh, it’s just a pity he had to go for exclusive, when in my opinion inclusive would have given him way more leverage.

Office integration

In reply to If he is n’t a troll, I’m at a loss

Well, as far as Office 12 goes, I think you’ll find that it’s a lot more inclusive than before. They’ve finally abandoned the old proprietary binary doc format, in favor of a new format called Docx. It’s a zipped archive of the resources that go into a file. The content, styling, metadata, etc. are in separate XML files in the archive.

This will make it very easy to integrate with.

Perhaps it’s mostly this particular site and forum, but it seems to me like most of the hate posts are from the linux crowd. Go ahead and flame away, everyone, but you’re only fooling yourselves.

Ernie, whoever he is, certainly doesn’t speak for microsoft, or even any ISV that might be partnered with them. You may actually be closer to the truth with your joke about him being a linux loonie…

I’d have hoped that most people would read his rants, and ignore them as noise from someone who clearly doesn’t speak for anyone. But then, troll baiting has always been a favorite pastime.

A regular mistake

In reply to Office integration

the linux crowd don’t hate MS (well barring one or two exceptions), we hate FUD. We hate FUD because it’s an insult to our intelligence, no one likes to be treated like an idiot.

I’m not surprised you want to disassociate your self from ErnieM. Be assured though there are more Ernie’s in the world than linux loons.

Docx “new”?

In reply to Office integration

That Docx file format sounds very similar conceptually to the old (pre Open Document) Open Office format.

The continual standoff between Windows and “alternative” computing generates a lot of noise, but it also creates a great deal of developmental dynamics.

Both Windows and Linux are much better now than they were a decade ago because of this.

Here, Here . . .

In reply to If he is n’t a troll, I’m at a loss

I too over the yars have come through various paths of technologies with the same view as yours – whatever works best for the situation at hand.

I started out in VMS some years ago and with market forces being what they are, moved into Windows along the way. Regardless of the general view that Windows is good for everything, this is exactly why I’ve moved on to the *NIX. Windows although very good for almost all home use left me wanting in business functionality.

What business in their right mind would not consider the best fit for their org in terms of overall TCO/ROI? If Windows does that for them, so be it. In my own business Linux et al has proven to be the overall winner.

Does this mean that Windows doesn’t have a fit? Or that Linux is still unable to meet business needs? Not by a long shot. The market can and will bear all flavors of technology for many years to come.

As technologists, we’ll still have a job for quite some time regardless of “which camp” you’re in.

My take on it.

In reply to Here, Here . . .

Linux for servers, Windows for PC’s. This is what works for me. But,… Windows still pisses me off!

Different side of the same coin

In reply to The message you referenced sounds like a troller

Being an advocate for FLOSS and Free Software, I have to say that I feel the same way with MS advocates. If I don’t join them, I’ve commited some kind of sin.

I’ve developed in Windows (I’ve actually mentioned that I like .Net) and my major beef is generally with the FUD or lack of knowledge. What really gets my back up is the idea that only MS App A can do this task. When a *nix advocate brings up that *nix App B can do the same task, the FUD typically starts.

I think the other point is that when I post that MS has a security flaw, or that I don’t like the way something works, I don’t know what I’m talking about. However, if I post that FC5 is bloated and buggy (it is btw), then nobody says a thing. Why is that?

Most OS’s

In reply to Different side of the same coin

Most OS’s distros, whether Linux or Windows, that are widely distrubuted, are buggy and bloated.

Yes, there are alot of Linux exceptions.

But most commonly used OS’s are extremely bloated as they attempt to be everything to everyone.

It is a common problem with MS and Linux.

And both are typically buggy because both are created by humans and humans aren’t perfect.

Linux geek trashes Linux distro.

In reply to Different side of the same coin

Oh, wait, that happens all the time. Here’s a condensed typical Linux discussion:

“SuSE’s better than Debian!
“Oh yeah? Well, Debian’s better than RedHat!”
“Screw you. Mandriva sucks.”

And on and on…. And the M$ people think we’re only hard on them. They haven’t even seen the flame war that would follow the line “GNOME sucks! KDE is the One and Only True window manager!”

You’re right about Fedora, jmgarvin. I dropped RedHat like a hot potato after the way they handled spinning off Fedora. Their attitude seemed to be something like “We’re taking our ball and going home. But since that stupid GPL says we have to keep the source code public, we’ll toss you hippies a bone called Fedora. Go away now. Oh, BTW, do you mind if we incorporate all your improvements into RHEL? Too bad–we’re going to anyway. You get to be our programmers AND beta testers.” Novell handled OpenSuSE much more professionally.

Microsoft isn’t the only company Linux users have problems with. How about Mandriva firing Gael Duval? There were a lot of Linux geeks unhappy about that.

So stop acting persecuted, M$ users. We’re harder on fellow Linux geeks than we are on you. But, unlike you, we don’t take it as a challenge to our manhood just because someone posts something negative about what OS we use. We actually enjoy heated debates and often even go so far as to (gasp!) try the distro that the other person is talking about!

How many M$ users have used Linux? 10%? 20%?
How many Linux users have used Windows? 99.9%?
Perhaps we feel the need to comment on your OS because we’ve ACTUALLY USED IT. I’ve used Windows for 15 years and I work in an all-Windows shop right now.

And most of us–myself included–are willing to admit that Linux isn’t perfect. I myself have called SuSE a “jumbled, unintuitive clusterfsck”, and that’s my distro of choice! And, believe it or not, I actually changed my mind and admitted I was wrong about that later on! Have you ever heard of such a thing? Oh, the humanity!

SuSe sucks! Gentoo forever!!!!

In reply to Linux geek trashes Linux distro.

🙂 (ok, I haven’t used SuSe for a few years, but it was…uh…very…European 😉 I do like how YaST works though)

Ok, now that I have THAT off my chest…I think the MS camp is so used to yes men, that they can’t see past the fact that we aren’t bashing, but we are complaining that IT CAN BE DONE BETTER!

Sure, AD has come a long way…sure MS has made Win2k3 more secure, but there is still a LOT to do. Let me also be the 23495739859734 to say:
MICROSOFT YOU NEED TO STOP FRIGGIN’ INTEGRATING CRAP INTO YOUR OS! Not only does that add to the insecurity, but it kills the whole concept of modularity.

Hell to Debian! Ubuntu ?ber alles!!!

In reply to SuSe sucks! Gentoo forever!!!!

Sorry, I just couldn’t resist it…

Ah! If feels much better now… You 2 guys are right, we Linux advocates tend to be harder on each other… And right, we tend to take a personal look on the other’s OS much more so than MacOS or Win guys… but – hell!!! Who said life was fair?
I can only remember last time I was flamed when I expressed my real personal opinion on a news group, something like “Firefox is crap. Opera is nearly perfect, if only it were libre software…”
Or last time I said “In fact, I prefer OpenBSD (or FreeBSD) to Linux, but I have to use it…” Men, THOSE are flamewars!!!

You should join the CIA.

In reply to Hell to Debian! Ubuntu ?ber alles!!!

You’d be perfect for those missions where you go into a country and get two sides fighting each other so the US can come in and install the dictator they wanted in the first place. You really know which buttons to push.

I’d have to agree on Opera. I started using it around 1999, and it had features then that Firefox still doesn’t have (like sessions, so in case it does crash or you simply want to close it for a while, you can pick right back up where you left off). It’s funny that you mention it, though. Just today I started using it again for the first time in a couple of years. I had forgotten how much I liked it. It’s still the “fastest browser on Earth” after all these years.

I think one of the reasons we look at our OS more personally is because we can make each OS uniquely ours. Linux is so flexible and customizable that two people are very unlikely to have their box set up the same way. But Windows XP is Windows XP is Windows XP.

What If?

In reply to Hell to Debian! Ubuntu ?ber alles!!!

If IE had sessions you’d call it a security threat…it remembers and knows what you were doing.

If Opera does it, it’s a convenience feature.

If no two people have the same Linux configuration, boy, that’d work out nicely in a corporate environment now wouldn’t it?

Are you intentionally being stupid?

In reply to Hell to Debian! Ubuntu ?ber alles!!!

Or are you really this clueless, rickk? Either way, you’re not making Windows’s case any stronger.

Post edited to insert guilty party’s name.

Um…

In reply to Hell to Debian! Ubuntu ?ber alles!!!

Actually, Firefox has a plugin that can save sessions. This way, you are happy, as well as the other guy saying it was an insecurity. (The latter isn’t forced to use it.)

You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

In reply to SuSe sucks! Gentoo forever!!!!

Linus Torvalds himself uses SuSE at home, so if you want to argue with the 800-pound gorilla of Linux, you’re a lamer and a retard. So there. I showed you! I’m sick and tired of you Gentoo fanatics shoving it down our throats–get a life!

(Just kidding, jmgarvin. You may be a lamer, but you’re no retard. 🙂 )

As for Active Directory–isn’t that just yet another M$ “extension” of something that existed for years before them (in a better implementation, too), namely Novell’s Directory Services? Which itself was based on LDAP which was based on X.500…. (That sounds pretty biblical, doesn’t it?)

To Microsoft, “modularity” means that when one module crashes, so do the rest of them. It’s one of the reasons you have to reboot a Windows box every freaking time you apply even the tiniest update. There is no reason at all why a patch to Windows Media Player should require a reboot! I updated amaroK last week and it didn’t require anything more involved than clicking “Finish”.

Replace the word “Gentoo” with the word “Linux” in the fourth sentence of the opening paragraph, and you get the most common argument seen from Windows users. Of course, the spelling and punctuation isn’t usually so good, but you get the point.

I am the l33t lamer! ;-)

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

I’m a retard too…I’ve comes to terms with that 😉

Linus is an idiot…uh…wait…hmmmmm…uh…well…hmmm. SuSe still sucks! 😉

Ya, AD is really just building on Novell Directory Services…Though in Win2k3 they did extend some of what it could do and clean up some of the mess they made with Win2k.

Ya, my dad can beat up your dad is just silly. Typically MS advocates say: MS is just better, but when you try to pin them down on WHAT is better, you get nothing in return.

Reboots

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

The last time I rebooted a Windows box was setting up a new PC for someone.

I installed 27 new updates and rebooted once.

What was your point?

Re: Reboots

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

You are so full of s–t that your eyes are brown. If you can send me an unedited video of you installing Windows XP from scratch and bringing it up to a full patch level and rebooting only once, I will personally send you $20. Considering I just installed Windows XP on a new machine less than a month ago, I know you are outright lying.

What, you think that because I use Linux to get things done that I’ve never installed Windows? My God, man, don’t insult my intelligence by thinking I would buy that “I didn’t have to reboot” crap. Did you miss the part in my profile about me being a Microsoft Certified Professional?

I Didn’t Say That

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

I didn’t say I only had to reboot one time to have it fully patched.

I said I installed 27 patches and it required one reboot.

Including SP2 on XP, and I could be wrong, I think only 3-4 reboots are required if you select them in the proper order.

By The Way

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

You might has well send me the $20.

At work and at home, I do slipstream updates and patches in as well as image.

Ok, so that might be cheating but you said it couldn’t be done.

Also, I did check out your profile Mr MCP. Your certs are all the easy ones: A+, Network+, i-Net+, Security+, Server+ and MCP.

Let’s see, all the CompTia’s take maybe one day of review for anyone in our field to pass and the A+ and Network+ combined, or the A+ and Security+ combined, or the A+ and Server+ combined equals one Microsoft elective which I think(?) qualifies one as a MCP (passing only one Microsoft test).

Your resume is as bloated as Windows and Linux are. Lots of pretty abbreviations but no real meat and potatoes.

Your only hope is good though. Your real world experience does seem to be impressive.

Yes, you are cheating, rickk

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

Can your grandmother slipstream? But wait, don’t you Microdroids always talk about how Linux is so hard that the average user can’t possibly fathom it? Then why would you use a technique that would take a level of technical competence that you or I already have? If you have to resort to tricks or changing the rules of victory midstream, you’ve already lost.

Go to newegg, CompUSA, Best Buy–wherever doesn’t matter–and buy 1 copy of Windows XP and 1 copy of SuSE 10.0. Install Windows. Format the HDD. Install Linux. Then tell me with a straight face just how much easier Windows is.

If Microsoft took the same approach to their “Get the FUD” campaign as you did, they’d sponsor (IOW, pay for) a study where they set up a RedHat box, do no updating, no tweaking, and no optimizing it and then they’d set up a Windows 2003 server, fully update it, tweak it, and optimize it to run certain (naturally Microsoft) applications. Then they’d run benchmarks on the two and find that the Windows 2003 server was slightly faster than the RedHat one.

Hold off on emailing Bill about my idea. Microsoft has already done exactly this. Apparently they took my joke a little too seriously.

Wow, another person without certs talking about how they’re so easy to get. I’ve seen plenty of people talk trash about how easy the CompTIA’s are and then walk into the testing center and fail them. If they’re so easy, then either shut up and get them or shut up about how easy they are. Pick one. Put your money where your mouth is. I did.

Installed Win XP Last Night

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

Win XP – SP2 (reboot) – 3 Patches (reboot) – 38 Patches (reboot)

Total time – 1 1/2 hours including formatting

So, going from base install to fully patched took 1 1/2 hours and only 3 reboots.

The rest of the patches at that point were optional.

On a PIV 2.7GHZ with 1GB RAM and 533Mhz motherboard…nice system but not out of the normal.

You’re halfway there.

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

http://www.opensuse.org
http://www.debian.org
http://www.kubuntu.org or http://www.ubuntu.org
http://fedora.redhat.com/

Pick one. But for a fair comparison, remove the free programs like OpenOffice.org, The GIMP, etc., whose commercial counterparts cost hundreds of dollars extra and don’t come on your Windows CD, since Windows only comes with the Windows part. After all, you wouldn’t want Linux to install faster than Windows even though you installed a bunch of free extra stuff, would you?

Kubuntu took me 40 minutes to install on a computer that’s slower than what you’re using. And that included OpenOffice and 1170 other free programs.

install speed

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

Debian Etch/Testing install (lots of updates, because it’s an up-to-date release of Debian, rather than Sarge/Stable, which is a “locked” release equivalent to a Windows version):

37 minutes total
83 patches
zero reboots

total interaction:
63 keystrokes (including hostname, username, account passwords, et cetera)

system specs:
350MHz Pentium II
256MB RAM

Mostly, a Debian install for an English-speaker consists of hitting Enter. The core system install itself, including most of the keystrokes involved and the hard drive partitioning, took 13 minutes. Thirteen. Wow. Yeah. Compare how long it takes to get to your first reboot of XP from a retail CD installer.

Wow, is Linux “hard”. Maybe I should go back to Windows. That 90 minute install plus reboots sounds much easier. Or not.

Now you’ve got me thinking, apotheon,

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

about comparing the installs of different distros. I’ve installed about a dozen different flavors, and their processes were all pretty much the same. Two stand out, though: Debian, because it lacks all the pretty pictures of the others, and Xandros, because it tries so hard to be Windows XP that it even mimics some of Windows’s irritating installation procedures. Maybe sometime over the summer, I’ll spend a week or two installing some popular distros and take notes, then compile them into a “How to install 10 different Linux distros” article. In fact, here’s the first entry now:

How to install Knoppix:
1. Insert CD.
2. Press power button.
3. Make coffee.

I think most people think Linux is hard to install because it used to be a real pain as recently as, oh, 6-8 years ago when Linux’s hardware support was still, shall we say, Mesozoic. This “fact” keeps echoing forth from people who have never used Linux, but they heard it from someone who tried to install Red Hat 5.0 back in 1999 and couldn’t get X to work correctly so it must still be true.

In fact, probably the hardest Linux thing I’ve had to deal with since I made the switch is continually hearing people who have never used Linux, or who tried it once for about an hour a few years ago but gave up when they couldn’t find the blue ‘e’ icon to surf the web, state that Linux is too hard for the average user. Yet when we, who almost without exception have extensive experience with Windows, say something negative about M$, we’re called zealots who don’t know what we’re talking about. It’s something I’ve grown used to, but something I’ll probably never grow to accept.

Except Linux IS Difficult to Install

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

Place the blame wherever you want, but spending several weeks this winter I was never able to get any distro is see my printer and only about half of them to see my video card.

Similar experience with a wireless NIC…thank god I have a wireless and wired connection. I was forced to use my wired connection.

Sure, they all worked with my video card…up to 800X600. But I didn’t spend $150 on my video card to see only 800X600.

And my printer, a cheaper model but nonetheless, is a Lexmark and I like it. I don’t print much but with Linux, apparently I’m not supposed to print at all, ever.

In other posts, all I ever heard from the Linux supporters was a few things.

1) I shouldn’t buy cheap or generic products
2) I could write my own driver
3) Did I search the web for a driver
4) I could switch to a different distro

With Windows, I can buy cheap/generic parts. With Windows, I don’t have to write my own drivers (nor do I know how). With Windows, I don’t have to search the web for drivers (hard to do if it won’t recognize my wireless connection (if that’s all I had). With Windows, I don’t have to pick a different version/distro to get my equipment working.

With Windows, everything is recognized and the only reason I use my manufacturer CD’s is I assume that their drivers is better than the Microsoft one.

Linux troubles

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

You had problems with two things that are still sometimes problematic for Linux, rickk. Wireless access issues can be kind of hit-and-miss in terms of how easy it is to set up. Often, you have to know what you’re doing to a nontrivial degree to get wireless adapters working with Linux — I’ll certainly admit that. In fact, just yesterday I started having issues with getting my Broadcom chipset wireless card to interact with my wireless router. For most purposes, Linux is incredibly easy about 98% of the time (and with Windows, I’d say that for most purposes it’s acceptably easy about 85% of the time). There are exceptions, however, and wireless networking can be one of them.

Of course, some wireless adapter chipsets are natively supported by Linux, and there are open source drivers that tend to be distributed with the OS for some other chipsets, so that it can be even easier to set up wireless networking with Linux than it is with Windows. That’s the exception rather than the rule, unfortunately. I still prefer the greater flexibility and capability of the wireless networking tools for Linux over those of Windows, so that I’m willing to take the reduced ease of use, but that doesn’t mean it’s easier on average with Linux than Windows.

So, yeah, you have a point — for wireless networking.

For postscript printers, Linux is generally far easier than Windows will ever be. For cheapie under-$100 consumer printers, the story is a bit different. It’s kind of a crap shoot. Windows and Linux average out overall for ease of use with printers, in my estimation. People using quality printers for professional purposes tend to find Linux easier to work with than Windows. People using crap printers for personal purposes tend to find Windows easier to work with than Linux. Such is life.

Your single-example anecdotal experience doesn’t make Linux the stone-age OS you seem to think it is. Yes, there are some issues. No, I don’t think they’re as numerous and difficult as the issues Windows has. You’re just more used to the Windows issues, so you don’t notice them as much: you work around them without even noticing them. Having been on both sides of the Windows/Linux fence, to rather extensive degrees in both cases, I probably have a bit more ability to make useful comparisons than you, though. For instance, I buy postscript-capable printers, both because good quality printers support postscript, and because I know they work with Linux, with great ease. I check the chipset in a given wireless adapter before buying it because I know that some chipsets aren’t as well supported by Linux.

By the same token, I (and probably you) know better than to get an ATI Rage chipset graphics adapter for Windows. The reason they suck is largely related to the crappy ATI drivers for its Rage card series. The drivers just Really Suck. Linux doesn’t really have this problem for most purposes, because the open source ATI drivers are pretty good quality (as long as you don’t need hardware acceleration). Windows doesn’t scale well with hardware, so you always have to check hardware specs against the Windows version to see if the hardware will support the version of Windows you want to run: with Linux that’s not really a problem. Windows is notoriously bad with USB Bluetooth dongles: Linux is not.

There are ways to work around the Windows hardware issues. Anyone who buys computers as complete, sealed boxes from Dell, Gateway, and so on, doesn’t have to use those workarounds because the hardware vendors have done it for him or her. Those of us who have been working with computers for a long time know the Windows workarounds, and use them pretty much instinctively after long experience: as such, we tend to not notice them.

It’s the same with Linux. The only reason these problems seem so huge to you is, simply, that they’re new to you. If you either got someone else to do it for you (like the Dell of the Linux world — try buying your next laptop from EmperorLinux if you want an example) or were as familiar with Linux as I am, you’d tend to not notice problems with Linux either (except that I’m just as familiar with Windows as Linux, and as such tend to notice the problems with both).

That’s odd, rickk

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

Here’s the hardware that has passed through my desktop in the past two years. The OS at the time was either SuSE 9.3 or 10.0. This machine used to dual-boot Windows XP, but this is no longer the case.

These have stayed the same:
Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe mobo
AMD Athlon XP 3000+ (overclocked to 2.35GHz)
1GB Geil Golden Dragon PC3500 dual-channel DDR

These have changed:
Sound:
–Turtle Beach Santa Cruz
–SoundBlaster Audigy 2 Platinum Pro
–Onboard AC ’97 chip (what I use now)

Video:
–nVidia GeForce4 MX-440
–ATI Radeon 9800Pro
–nVidia GeForce6200 (what I use now)

HDD:
–Western Digital WDC2500/WDC300
–Dual 80GB Hitachi SATA/150 (what I use now)

CD/DVD:
–Samsung CD-RW/DVD combo
–Sony DRU820 (What I use now)

Printer:
a networked HP DeskJet 930C and a Lexmark X3350

None of these has ever had a problem in Linux (except a less-than-smooth change from the Radeon 9800 to the GeForce6200). Here’s the problems I had with them in Windows:

–Couldn’t overclock processor when using Windows. Got random BSOD’s. Worked fine as long I was in Linux.
–Audigy2 didn’t handle 5.1 sound correctly.
–Radeon 9800 would reset itself rather frequently. Tried four or five driver releases; no change.
–Could not install Windows AT ALL when I got the SATA HDD’s. It had no built-in SATA drivers (I can’t blame Microsoft for this–the technology didn’t exist when XP first came out), and pressing F6 to specify the included drivers didn’t work. Windows refused to even acknowledge that they were drivers. This is why I took a different computer and made it my gaming box instead of dual-booting like I used to. SuSE didn’t blink an eye when it saw my new SATA drives.
–The print quality of the DeskJet 930 was _much_ higher when printing pictures from Linux vs. Windows.
–The Samsung drive twice “forgot” that it had CD-RW capabilities. Windows would only consider it a CD-ROM when this happened. Uninstalling it completely and reinstalling it didn’t fix the problem. Hours of searching and reading online only showed me that this is not an uncommon problem in Windows, and there is no good solution. Only a complete reinstallation of XP fixed it. By the time this happened a second time, I didn’t care anymore whether it worked in Windows because SuSE’s k3b had no problem burning anything I wanted.

I’m rather suspicious when you claim that your generic hardware doesn’t work in Linux. Generic hardware is _more_ likely to work, assuming they are generic because they are one of those companies who licenses a chipset to make cheap hardware out of. Hardware support, especially for standard chipsets, is already very good and rapidly approaching outstanding in Linux. Usually it’s those with bleeding-edge hardware who have problems, and those people are usually the technically-savvy ones who either like tinkering and getting it working themselves or they know to submit a report to their favorite distro so the Open Source delevopment method can do what it does best.

Post edited to correct some typos. I wish TR had a “Preview post” feature like the rest of the world.

That’s Funny and Typical

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

I say I had problems and you are suspicious.

Yet, you have problems and simply give greater detail and we’re suppposed to all believe you but not me.

Typical Linux speak.

Why are you suspicious of me but I’m not supposed to be suspicious of you?

I know because you support Linux and my problems don’t fit your nice little view of the world.

Apotheon vs Nighthawk

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

While I disagree with some of what you are saying Apotheon, I do appreciate your honesty. That post did add something to this discussion.

Nighthawk, on the other hand, rants on and on at times about nothing and typically adds nothing to these discussions.

Rikk

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

Ok, the skinny is this:

You make up problems about Linux.

Apo and Night state common issues and work arounds that are available along with basic troubleshooting steps.

Linux is NOT hard to install, just check the blogs section. The Hot Button had a Linux vs Windows shoot out with installs. Typically a Linux install is click and forget…while with Windows (and two reboots later), you have nanny it and then you have the installation.

Wireless DOES work in Linux, it just takes a little doing because VENDORS don’t make drivers for most wifi cards.

SATA does work, NVidia does work, ATI does work, 3d acceleration does work, most NICs work, USB PnP does work, etc…So what doesn’t work Rikk…Without the FUD…Tell me please.

Stupid question…

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

What’s a “FUD”?

*feels like a newb*

Whatever

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

I will go home, list my components, tell you again what I experienced, and you jmgarvin will once again not believe me.

What’s the point?

That was the whole point of this discussion. You just can’t let it go. You are a Linux zealot.

I have my OS of choice and you have yours. I’m not trying to convert or prove anything…you are.

But more to your points: (these are my opinion)

“Linux is NOT hard to install” – I have installed probably 5-6 different distros now and while 99% of the time everything goes OK, it’s that 1% that kills me.

“Wireless DOES work in Linux, it just takes a little doing because VENDORS don’t make drivers for most wifi cards.” – Like I care. My OS of choice does support virtually any and all wireless cards. I don’t care what mnaufacturers are doing or are not doing…I just want the thing to work.

“SATA does work, NVidia does work, ATI does work, 3d acceleration does work, most NICs work, USB PnP does work, etc…So what doesn’t work Rikk” – All of the above work in Windows as well. I have a NVidia card at home with no problems. I have a ATI card at home with no problems. I told you what wasn’t working for me in Linux but you have selective memory.

It was the printer, a Lexmark something, and my wireless NIC, a D-Link something.

I will go home tonight and get the specific model numbers for you, however, I know that won’t do me any good because you are God and have an excuse for everything.

It’ll either be the cheap equipment, the lack of a manufacturer driver, not the most recent distro, my lack of something (even though I’ve been in IT for 6+ years now)…you always have an excuse.

Those two things, the wireless NIC and the printer work fine for me in Windows yet aren’t even seen at all in Linux.

It’s actually unbelievable that Linux continues to improve everyday (which it does) with people like you who don’t recognize issues and try to resolve them. You ignore facts that you don’t agree with.

“It depends what is is” should be your motto.

“You make up problems about Linux” – So, apotheon and nighthawk’s problems are real and I’m are imaginary.

Dude, your head is so far up your backend, I’m surprised you can even drink the free beer as in Linux.

rickk, if by “rant” you mean

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

ripping your argument to shreds and stomping on the pieces, I guess I’m guilty as charged.

I’ve always found it quite pleasing when a discussion reaches a point where the other side simply calls me a zealot and/or attacks my posting style and doesn’t present anything substantive. It basically means they’ve run out of things for me to beat down.

What makes this time somewhat ironic is that I predicted you would say something like that in the post you have to reply to because of TR’s “max level” limitation. “Fanatic” and “zealot” are pretty synonymous.

Well, it was fun while it lasted. It’s init 0 time for me.

FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, and doubt

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

NT

actually, rickk . . .

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

1. I disagree with your assessment of what nighthawk808 said, and how he typically behaves. He was a bit harsher than me this time, and he didn’t “balance” his post by discussing why you might have had problems with Linux hardware support the way I did. He brought up a laundry list of Windows issues. He stated that he was suspicious of you, for which I can hardly fault him considering that you have a tendency to sow FUD and troll for flames. You even jumped into the midst of an amicable mutual ribbing that some Linux users were giving each other just to stir up strife. I decided to be nice: nighthawk808 didn’t. That doesn’t make him wrong.

2. It’s difficult for people like jmgarvin (and me) to take what you say at face value. You have repeatedly contradicted yourself in the midst of trying to contradict anyone that says anything that favorably compares Linux to Windows, and you stir up flamewar threads like this one while claiming to just want everyone to get along. While I am trying to respond to your specific complaints about hardware support as though your entire history of disinformation doesn’t exist, jmgarvin is responding to what he knows of your history here. His approach may not have been as nice as mine, but it was no less valid.

3. The word “zealot” as applied to a Linux vs. Windows debate should have the same status as the words “Hitler” and “Nazi” in other debates. If you want to be seen as anything other than a “zealot” yourself, you should probably stop using that term. Of course, I don’t think you really care: you’re more interested in trolling for flames than in having a reasoned discussion. I think you’re deliberately provoking people with the word “zealot”. I’ve been wrong once or twice before, though it’s rare — so I suppose I might be wrong again. I don’t think so, though. You seem to enjoy this strife too much.

4. With extensive experience of both Linux and Windows, I have seen Linux installs go from more difficult than Windows about three or four years ago to notably easier than Windows now. There might be a 1% problem rate, but if so, the 6% problem rate of Windows installs makes that look good.

5. Actually, Windows [b]doesn’t[/b] support all those wireless cards. The wireless cards support Windows. How many of those can you install and use without the vendor’s drivers? 40%? 50%? Something like that is my experience. Probably only about 15% of wireless cards are supported by Linux without vendor drivers, but 90% of wireless cards [b]are[/b] supported by Linux when you use the vendor’s drivers and ndiswrapper, as compared with about 98% of cards being supported by Windows when you use the vendor’s drivers. Yes, Windows is slightly ahead, but not to the degree you seem to be suggesting. It’s also worth noting that those 15% of wireless cards that are supported in Linux without vendor drivers tend to be better supported than [b]any[/b] card, under any circumstances, in Windows. This is because that native support in Linux is provided by open source drivers that incorporate far more functionality than you can get with the vendor drivers for Windows. While all this extra functionality is lost on most users, it’s certainly a boon to those of us who use wireless adapters to survey wireless security at clients’ network sites. (note: those percentages are estimates based on my own experience and analyses of wireless support statistics gleaned from a number of online resources)

6. Windows doesn’t support ATI or nVidia nearly as well as Linux. Add vendor drivers, and suddenly the Windows and Linux support for them becomes about even, but natively, out of the box, Windows support for those cards is sketchy at best, while Linux support under those same conditions is rock-solid even if it’s not quite up to the standards of the vendor drivers. As for SATA, it’s true that Windows supports SATA drives pretty well [b]now[/b], but there was a time (shortly after the release of SP2 for Windows XP) that the SATA drivers would often be classified as “uncertified” and thus rejected outright by the OS, effectively turning the drive into a paperweight as far as the computer was concerned. It took months for Windows to get caught up on SATA support again. The cost and aggravation incurred was impressive. As for NICs, aside from wireless, there is no OS family of which I’m aware that has better general network adapter support than Linux, Windows included. In fact, Linux has far better native NIC support than Windows. Ethernet NIC support is one of the pretty much indisputable wins of Linux. Windows, on the other hand — well, it’s a crap shoot. NICs are supported more than half the time without vendor drivers, and they work almost all the time with vendor drivers, but pulling a random NIC out of a box in the closet, with no vendor drivers, and slotting it into your Windows machine runs a substantial risk of being pretty soundly b0rked.

Do yourself a favor: when you get home and find that D-Link NIC, check on the ndiswrapper wiki for the list of supported cards, and see if your card’s chipset is supported. If it is, you can bow out gracefully, and just say “Well, it would be nice if it was easier to get it working than by using ndiswrapper.” Try to avoid claiming it doesn’t work at all without being absolutely certain.

Apotheon

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

That is exactly what I’m talking about.

While I disagree with many of your points, especially 1-4 🙂 5 and 6 were more debate like.

Some on here just can’t seem to make points without attacking someone.

You and I have had numerous run ins but that post was what my title “Why the Constant Arguing” was all about.

We can all debate, agree, or disagree, but why the constant arguing?

You may have actually sent me down the road of fixing my wireless card issue. Thanks! We need more of that on TR.

But you have to admit, whether you agree with me or other TR members or not, the constant bickering on TR is starting to get annoying.

I’ve been on TR now for a little over 4 years and maybe it’s my imagination but I don’t think it’s been this bad before.

Thanks jmgarvin!

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

N/M

No driver problems in Windoze???

In reply to You can’t argue with Linus Torvalds.

I wish life was so simple as you try to paint it Rickk. I have a couple of tape transports that are now relegated to the surplus bins at the swapmeets. When I upgraded to Win2KPRO, lo and behold, I could not find a driver that would work. It would not use the drivers on the CD that came with the drive. All that wonderful 16 bit stuff just did not install. I did not have the same experience with the RH9 install ? in fact, it recognized the drive and I was able to use the drive after I finished installing from the CD and BRU works great on it. As I have SIMBA running on that machine (my main server at home), I am able to backup and restore all of my server-side stuff, which I can’t say is true on the Win2KPRO. I use Ghost to make image backups to my server so that BRU can save my bacon for when my machine gets attacked/hacked and Win2KPRO won’t come up.

Until later become now ? Ciao

A funny thing about Gentoo

In reply to SuSe sucks! Gentoo forever!!!!

I remembered that one of the funniest things I’ve ever heard about any distro was something recent on Slashdot. Just for you, jmgarvin, I dug it up:
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/15/217259&from=rss

From madaxe42:
“What about Gentoo? Wonderful community. And you end up with plenty of time to get to know them all, while you wait for it to build!”

Seriously, though, Gentoo is actually next on my list of distros to play with when I get time. And after that: Linux From Scratch (AKA “I love pain”).

Nothing like beating you competition with a bigger club.

In reply to SuSe sucks! Gentoo forever!!!!

Who would have ever guessed that it would take 3.9gb of *compressed* code to make anything work? OOPS … appear to work 🙂 I can’t find the Bunn-O-Matic VPR series Coffee Maker drivers on my Windoze 2010 distro … help! 🙂

I agree that you don’t need to incorporate every little thing into your product. My install at home for my flavor of Linux is about 26mb. The install (also at home) for my w2kPro is about 120mb. Both machines are identical, hardware wise. So, I must need all of that extra code just in case I install the Binsford 2000 Leafblower?

BTW … I must belong to both camps until someone comes up with a way of developing non-platform dependent application on a non-platform. 🙂

Until later becomes now … Ciao

Depends on the forum

In reply to Different side of the same coin

Re: “What really gets my back up is the idea that only MS App A can do this task. When a *nix advocate brings up that *nix App B can do the same task, the FUD typically starts.”

I can sort of relate. I think it has to do with using a minority platform, by which I mean a minority platform for certain tasks. Unix machines are generally regarded as servers, not desktop systems. You’ve shown a template of how the argument usually goes, but I suspect that you’re saying, “Hey look, I can use Unix like a desktop platform,” which is generally viewed with incredulity and derision. My last experience with Unix, as it has been for most people, was one where the machine was sitting in a server room, and people logged in from a telnet session on different machines, typing commands at a command line. This is adequate for doing server work, but not for running productivity applications. Again, in a lot of cases the client machines are not running X clients.

Many years ago I was an Atari ST user. Back when I used to see the “my computer is better than yours” flame wars, I often used to see PC and Amiga users rag on ST users about how it was inferior for one reason or another. I used to talk about how the ST did some things well, but was largely ignored outside of other ST users. I think other computer users didn’t understand what I was talking about. One reason behind this is I was resourceful. I would find useful utilities on BBSes or the internet. I would shop at mail order stores for certain applications I needed, and I saw ads and reviews for applications that worked with it. So I generally knew what I could get done on it. Other ST users did too. Non-ST users knew little of this. The best they could tell it was a “game machine”. When I pointed out that it did desktop publishing well (I had read about it), I usually got no response, or a more detailed challenge from someone who used desktop publishing, which I couldn’t answer because I didn’t know the answer.

It was frustrating, but I think their response indicated that what I was saying was irrelevant. Any response saying that my platform did something well was like asking them to switch, which they weren’t going to do. They had their reasons. I think like schoolboys they just wanted to pick on somebody, or perhaps they wanted retribution from getting picked on themselves. I eventually found out Amiga and PC users were getting picked on frequently by Mac users. And Mac users were getting picked on by NeXT users. It was a friggin’ pecking order!

I had a similar experience once. I found a newsgroup called alt.fan.cobol, or something like that, and I have to admit seeing the dialog on there was funny. It seemed the whole purpose of the group was to pick on the language, which I didn’t mind, because I had tried COBOL a bit and didn’t like it. There were supporters for it as well, who tried to defend it, like I did my ST, but I found myself agreeing with the people who were making fun of it.

What I used to find occasionally was that Linux users who were picking on Windows were doing it because they felt isolated, and they felt they knew better than everyone else. They had the feeling they knew THE TRUTH, and were shouting it from some tower or dungeon they were locked up in by ignoramuses. I found a few people who willing to admit that they were the single Linux user/administrator in an office full of Windows users. I gotta admit that sounds pretty isolating, and I can sympathize with their feeling that their “birds of a feather” were on the internet, not where they were physically.

Re: “I think the other point is that when I post that MS has a security flaw, or that I don’t like the way something works, I don’t know what I’m talking about.”

Well, you might not. If you’ve been off of a platform for a while things can change. I’ve seen that with Windows. Windows 9x had gaping security holes mainly because there was no security infrastructure. That’s changed with Win2000 and WinXP. Now it has a security infrastructure that’s similar to Unix. So it’s possible that even though a vulnerability exists, one can protect oneself by using these security features. WinXP has one fatal flaw in that it puts users into an administrator account by default. So it takes some knowledge to protect oneself.

Re: “However, if I post that FC5 is bloated and buggy (it is btw), then nobody says a thing. Why is that?”

If you posted it in a Windows forum, the others reading it probably said to themselves, “Figures.” What have you seen if you’ve said that in a Linux forum? Or are you saying that WAS the response in the Linux forum, and that other people didn’t try to defend it, because they agreed with you?

There you go I was with you all the way

In reply to Depends on the forum

until “security infrastructure similar to unix”.

That particular similarity is dreadfuly misleading. 2003 was certainly an improvement, but while things like graphics and web browsers are built in to the ‘kernel’ that similarity of interface is effectively meaningless.

An exploit in say ooh WMF exposes the entire system no matter what the security context of the program that wished to render it has. Apparently they are beefing it up further for vista.

There’s little benefit in saying User A can only run this program, when this program can do what the hell it likes and that’s where the vulnerability is.
Just been reading that Linux had to build graphics into it’s Kernel to use NVidia cards. Just a big red flag on that purchase, without some investigation.

A lot more redesign needed to separate kernel and user space in windows I’m afraid, when they do, then the similarity will be meaningful.

Have you seen this?

In reply to There you go I was with you all the way

Re: “while things like graphics and web browsers are built in to the ‘kernel’ that similarity of interface is effectively meaningless.

An exploit in say ooh WMF exposes the entire system no matter what the security context of the program that wished to render it has.”

This is the first time I’ve heard that. Have you seen this in action?

Yes, I was saying “similar to Unix” because you can set up security contexts that limit rights. I’ve been running programs that access the internet under limited accounts for about as long as I’ve been running XP. I’m sure it helps, but what you say is interesting news to me. The people I’ve heard about who have run XP and have gotten infected by some hack on the internet have been running everything as administrator. I haven’t gotten infected once, to my knowledge. Since I’ve been running XP almost daily since 2002, and access the internet just as often I find it hard to believe that I’ve just been lucky.

Not personally no

In reply to Have you seen this?

But that was the recently published wmf flaw. Now patched. The reason I mentioned it though is because of the architectural differences between ‘nix and windows.
Things like graphics rendering are in the user space in linux, but they are built into the kernel in windows. So if you found a common exploit for both os’s that used a common graphical engine. On linux it would take out the user, on windows it would take out the machine.

Did n’t mean to scare you

Just a Thought

In reply to Have you seen this?

I know there are huge technical differences, but really, if an exploit takes out a user profile or the whole machine does the end user really care?

All they know is their stuff is gone. Sure, we have file servers and backups but inevitably some of the files reside on the local PC.

From the end user point of view, they got hosed one way or the other.

Just another thought

In reply to Have you seen this?

No let’s have a first one, because the first wasn’t a thought.

You’re a professional, take your pick delete and create a user account, restore their data or rebuild the entire server and restore all user data.

Doesn’t Matter to Me

In reply to Have you seen this?

Since I image all my machines.

10 1/2 minutes later, done.

If something hoses up the profile or machine and the user didn’t store data on the server, their bad not mine because even if it was just a profile issue, their My Documents is gone anyways barring some undelete type of program is successful.

There’s nearly always an acceptable work around

In reply to Have you seen this?

it’s just nice if teh design is robust enough for a work around not to be needed.

Doesn’t matter what OS, backups are a given anyway. Don’t care how good an OS is, there’s no defence against stupidity.

Question about the whole issue

In reply to Have you seen this?

I had heard a little about the WMF exploit, but didn’t get into the details. What I’m wondering about is the idea that some claim that one can invade system space from user space in Windows. I’ve heard this claim more than once. When I’ve heard detailed explanations of vulnerabilities in the past they’re not like this. Anyone remember GPFs (General Protection Faults) in Windows? It’s been my understanding that Windows has had memory monitoring technology in it for a long time, and that a GPF was Windows protecting itself from just this sort of thing: a program a user was running straying off into system memory.

For example, there was a SQL Server exploit that used a buffer overflow to launch an attack and spread itself around. It was my understanding that the exploit used a way to get in that was already in the system space. The problem has been that Windows does not separate data space from code space, like Unix does. This has just recently been addressed by hardware DEP. So the reason a buffer overflow worked, is that it could get the computer to copy a string such that a portion of the string overwrote some op-codes in the program that was running. The exploit began in system space and stayed there. The exploit utilized something in SQL Server’s communication protocol, something it uses to communicate between servers. This would not be in the user space. Likewise there have been other exploits I’ve heard about that used the RPC protocol in Windows. Again, another exploit that starts and ends in system space.

I haven’t heard of an exploit that crosses the boundary from user space to system space, unless WMF was one of them. The reason why it might seem that such exploits have succeeded is because so many people run Windows as administrators (like root in Unix). They open an attachment in e-mail and it gains permission to the whole system. They can alter or overwrite whatever files they want, etc. Same thing could happen if a user was running e-mail as root in Linux and happened to open a trojan attachment. Most Linux users are smart enough not to do that, but just saying it’s a matter of what mode applications are run in.

I asked if anyone had seen such an exploit that crossed from the user/system boundary, and saw that it actually worked that way, because that would prove that it’s possible. I know people get the idea that since portions of IE are built into the kernel and all that this MUST be possible. I’m more skeptical than that.

Slight misunderstanding

In reply to Have you seen this?

Lets say you have a buffer overun flaw in a routine that renders an image.
In linux that rendering routine only runs in user space. The very low primitives run in kernel (write to device) but they are pretty much solid now and rarely change.

In windows however the render routines are in the kernel. If they overrun and you get a code injection, The code runs with with kernel priviliges, basically local system account.

In linux given that the kernel is solid, the code injection will have the user’s access. So unless you’ve been a complete twonk, it won’t do anything outside the user’s home directory.

So the vulnerability doesn’t really cross from user to kernel space in windows.

For Linux think of one sphere inside of another.

For windows think of it as spiky ball in side of a sphere. ie the kernel projects into user space.

Into the wayback machine.

In reply to The message you referenced sounds like a troller

My PDP-10 is better than your System/360. So there, pear.

Nyeah!!

In reply to Into the wayback machine.

My box of sand is better than YOUR box of sand!! 😛

Tony, there are real IT people and then there are the Ernies of the world!!

In reply to For the best answer to this question you need

[b]http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=189869&messageID=1994685[/b]

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

PLATFORMS

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

I’ve worked with just about every OS to be released, and a few that are propriatory and not available to the public. Each has it’s own
adxantages and drawbacks too. I prefer to use what is suited to the hardware best, and have
struggled with each, on different processors
and with different hardware specs. I believe that there are no hard and fast rules for what
works with what, it really comes down to the developers of the MOBO that create this environment and few of them communicate for who
or what they conceived this platform. That’s
where we come in, You can’t just pick parts
of the shelf and make them work together, well,
sometimes you can, with well educated guesses and
a real eye to the software makers and what specs
they wrote the code to. Too much grey area to
really nail down what does and doesn’t work.

It all boils down to which is easier

In reply to PLATFORMS

Doesn’t it just come down to what OS is easier for the end user to understand and what they want to use use?

Depends

In reply to It all boils down to which is easier

The whole point of a GUI was to be intuitive. One of the hardest things about switching to another OS is that your intuition is constantly wrong. Even switching to another version is problematic.

Rememeber when MS changed Find to search and moved it, took weeks for me to break that habit.

The biggest complaint of windows users about linux basically boils down to the function I want isn’t where it was so linux kills productivity.

The easiest OS to use is the one you are familiar with. I remember seeing windows and saying this will never catch on, how do you copy a file. I was looking for the command prompt.

Copy myfile.txt hisfile.txt

Easy

Easy is Irrelevant

In reply to It all boils down to which is easier

It comes down to what will do the required job. That’s non-negotiable. Ease of use is great, but you should never sacrifice bit one of the function to get the ease.

This is the same in the argument about web-based development. By all means deliver via the web, but the performance is a requirement.

No amount of ease of use is worth loosing speed and power. You can learn to use anything, but no amount of learning is going to make the slow machine fast.

Some news for you

In reply to Easy is Irrelevant

“No amount of ease of use is worth loosing speed and power”

Well, to a lot of people, ease of use IS more important than speed and power.

Corollary to both

In reply to Some news for you

Speed and power is the requirement on an easy to use slow system.
Ease of use is important on an opaque system that is at least fast enough.

i agree

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

I was wondering the same thing about a responce you made to one of my other posts.

I own a Ford, so my relatives think I hate GM, but some of my friends think I am anti-Japanese.

I use Windows, and complain about the cost, so I am accused of being a socialist. 🙂 Then Linux guys hate me. Most of my servers at work are Suse Linux, so the Fedora folks get mad.

The point is most of these decisions were the best choice at the time. I bought the car that I thought would be the cheapest to run with the features I wanted. I bought a Windows PC becuase my wife and child do not understand how to use Linux. i use Suse at work becuase purchasing says I have too.

The next time I have to make these purchases again, it might be the same, it might not. It will depend on the situation. Most likely it will be with what I am familiar with, and as cheap as possible. However, cheap is not alwasys fewest dollars.

I do like having the variety though. I learn some thing about Windows every time I use Linux, and vice versa. I get to see different ways to accomplish the same task. It helps me learn what problem the underlying technology is trying to solve. I especially like the “express” versions of software many companies are putting out. It allows me to play around with the software without having to buy. I can dig in and learn and decide if it is worth pursuing further. I also think it makes competing product better too, so I win in the end anyway you look at it.

Very Well Put indeed

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

I have never understood the need to run down people who are not using the same OS as you are.
They are treated “by Some” as if they illiterate morons. After awhile, it becomes downright annoying.
If I choose Windows, and I have” , and, am not in the process of running the Linux user down then why should I have to suffer the consequences of their inability to be civilized.
It’s gotten to the point, where If I see the word LINUX, I keep going, because invariably someway, somehow the insults start to fly an so now, we have a fight going. Doesn’t matter who started what. There always seems some with the need to put down anybody who isn’t “With it” and using Linux.
I beg to differ as I happen to Love my Windows XP. However I would not run down a Linux user based on the fact that they use a different OS.
I would respond to the insults, diarhetic verbosity, innuendoes and anything else they have become expert at throwing, as I don’t back down, but I think it’s incredibly pathetic and childish to be fighting all the time about “My OS is Better than Yours” tsk tsk Pathetic.
I would much rather we learned from one another, but I won’t sit there like a doorknob while some “Linux Type Genius” craps all over us in his/her attempt at seeming far more intellectual than they really are. It’s a stupid, childish immature game and it would be lovely to see the people grow up and stop. Then perhaps we could have meaningful discussion on a professional level,regardless of OS.
That would be great 😉
Thank You
Aaron 🙂

Agree!

In reply to Very Well Put indeed

Certain TR members just can’t seem to agree to disagree.

Hey, I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve at times become quite irrate and fire back responses too but only because I can’t sit back and watch the posts be taken over by the Linux fanatics.

Unfortunately, everytime I do engage in these meaningless arguments, I know I lose. Not because of the argument itself, but because it is a complete waste of my time.

I should be using TR as the valuable resource that it is instead of engaging in flame wars.

I should be reading and learning from TR or even getting back to my old ways of publishing works for other TR members to benefit from.

But instead, it seems like every post becomes a OS war and certain members (who shall remain anonymous) are usually the instigators.

I’m going to try to hold back from now on. But at times, I wish the orginal poster could simple delete those postings from their post that add zero value to the topic at hand.

I’ve tried the same thing. Is there a patch for this?

In reply to Agree!

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=190421&messageID=1959450

If it isn’t an OS, you’ll argue about something else. I have a preference for Linux in my home, and don’t mind using Windows if I’m paid enough to do so, but mostly I engage in a different sort of meaningless arguments. I try to tell myself “it’s just hot air, it’s not worth my time to type the counterpoint,” but I feel this “Invisible Hand” at work and it’s so hard not to…

Well, my point, rickk, is that I can empathize.

“I should be using TR as the valuable resource that it is instead of engaging in flame wars.”

I wish you luck beating your habit.

instigator

In reply to Agree!

That would be you. You’re the instigator. If you want to avoid these flame wars, stop trolling for them.

Nobody with two brain cells to rub together could possibly have posted the statements that started this thread without expecting it to be the start of another huge debate on the comparative merits of operating systems. Pretending you didn’t expect just that is disingenuous.

Well, good. I’m glad there’s a debate. It helps to get the facts out in the open. It also helps to identify the trolls (you, for instance) and to make clear what fallacious, FUDdy arguments are common.

You started four separate and distinct Windows vs. Linux flamewars, took the stance that anyone arguing against Windows was wrong, used fallacies and insults to make your “points”, and blamed everyone else for the resultant disagreements. Now, you’re doing it all over again, and you expect people to believe you want as all to just “get along”. BS. You’re full of it.

I Didn’t Instigate Anything

In reply to instigator

I don’t control your keyboard. I just asked a serious question.

But once again, you go on the offensive talking about two brain cells, trolling, and being disingenuous.

Like numerous posters have said before, if you misinterpret my statements or read in between the lines when there is nothing there, that is your fault not mine.

Besides, who made you God? Why do you get to determine what is FUD and what is fact?

I have never said anyone arguing against Windows is wrong. I don’t use fallacies (unless you are the only one deciding what is a fallacy and what isn’t) and I don’t expect everyone to just get along.

I am wanting to hear opinions but don’t like the offensive, self centered, egotistical, arrogant comments that I constantly get from certain people.

I can and would like to engage in meaning debates about the merits of certain issues. But certain people have a God like complex and just don’t seem to be able to join these debates and remain civil.

just . . . wow

In reply to I Didn’t Instigate Anything

Your audacity amazes me.

By the way, the statements I made indicated that you [b]either[/b] don’t have two brain cells to rub together [b]or[/b] are a troll and being disingenuous. The rest of my post should point out which case I think to be true.

I don’t think you’re that stupid. I think you use slipshod reasoning and are looking for a fight, though — and you’re not above pretending to be something you’re not to manufacture a false sense of superiority.

Not to Change the Subject…

In reply to Very Well Put indeed

But it is a little past 3:30am here (Indiana) and grant it we just had daylight savings time, but our posts are listed as 4/1/06.

Shouldn’t that be 4/2/06?

Makes me curious, what time zone is this TR server in? Where is it located? Is the time on it set correctly?

Even if it is west coast (3 hour time difference), it should still say 4/2/06.

Interesting or did I miss something?

Maybe…

In reply to Not to Change the Subject…

maybe they turned the clock the wrong way, oops.

The TR server has been outsourced

In reply to Not to Change the Subject…

To a little coral atoll just your side of the IDN so no one can get at it. :^0

That’s why you see the date differently as it’s still several hours behind you and if it was 3 miles to the West it would show up as a day later than what the time zone you are in is. :p

Col ]:)

Does Make Me Wonder

In reply to The TR server has been outsourced

If the TR server is either screwed up time/date wise or indeed it is in a foreign (not US) country.

The only way it is in the US based on last night is either it is 1) time/date screwed up 2) floating in the Pacific ocean or 3) in Hawaii.

If it is #3, I’m getting my resume ready as we speak.

I’d be looking at the Date Time

In reply to Does Make Me Wonder

Being a mistake as it’s on Mainland USA but I could have a nice holiday at Hawaii.

I have a friend who lives there so I wouldn’t even need to pay for accommodation. And it’s about the right time of the year to be there as well. 😀

Col

Map of Locations

In reply to The TR server has been outsourced

http://www.cnetnetworks.com/aboutus/locations.html

Well I can’t go to CA

In reply to Map of Locations

As [b]She Who Must Be Obeyed[/b] will not let me anywhere near that State. She knows me far too well and knows that I’ll not do any work but pay visits to all the Hot Up places that sell the bits that I’m constantly buying from the US to feed my habit. 😉

I can get away with crashing her car and the next day buying 8K worth of M’Board & CPU’s for a test rig but there is [b]No Way[/b] I’m allowed anywhere near CA under any circumstances. It’s a good thing that I’m not interested in Hot Up Parts for the Classic Mercedes that I constantly buy her so I can get away with spending money for my own play toys and allowing her to think that she owns them. :^0

But there are just too many VW and Ducati places in CA that I would spend days in and spend way too much money.

Col

Wow.!.

In reply to Map of Locations

I didn’t know they had offices in Europe. Thanks. (I also never thought to look either) Now, I wonder if they have coffee for members……..

Of course they have offices in Europe!

In reply to Wow.!.

You didn’t think European office workers commuted to the Untied States every day, did you?

j/k, I understood what you meant, but I thought my first impression was amusing too

please enjoy

Social “operating system”

In reply to Very Well Put indeed

Aaron Baker: “I have never understood the need to run down people who are not using the same OS as you are….I beg to differ as I happen to Love my Windows XP. However I would not run down a Linux user based on the fact that they use a different OS.
I would respond to the insults, diarhetic verbosity, innuendoes and anything else they have become expert at throwing, as I don’t back down, but I think it’s incredibly pathetic and childish to be fighting all the time about “My OS is Better than Yours” tsk tsk Pathetic.
I would much rather we learned from one another, but I won’t sit there like a doorknob while some “Linux Type Genius” craps all over us in his/her attempt at seeming far more intellectual than they really are. It’s a stupid, childish immature game and it would be lovely to see the people grow up and stop.”

I’m not familiar with this stereotype of a Linux user, and you haven’t cited any sources, so I’ll just pretend to believe, within the confines of this discussion thread, that you have honestly described [b]all of your[/b] experiences with “Linux Type Geniuses”. My impression of your message, FWIW, is that you give as bad as you get, but that instead of advocating for a computer operating system, you are a zealot for manners. Your insulting message exhibited all the distasteful characteristics that the same message attributed to Linux users, I consider it unlikely that you really are any more civilized toward them than you say that they are toward you.

Get off your high horse much?

In reply to Very Well Put indeed

While I do prefer XP for some tasks, typicially my complaint with Windows is their total lack of stability, scalability, and security.

However, from your post it seems you are no better than those you disagree with. Typically, Linux users will have sane discussions with those that bring up technical points rather than the touchy feely or FUD that we typically see.

‘Course, other TR users (like Abs) and I will fight from time to time, but I still like the guy. Sure, I’ll get frustrated that he won’t see how wrong he is ;-), but all in all no hard feelings. We are just talking about the field we all love.

On that note: I hate you…not because of your post, but because you got that damn Tom Petty song in my head…”I won’t back down”

& I hate you, jmgarvin, because I didn’t remember that lousy Tom Petty song

In reply to Get off your high horse much?

…until [b]you[/b] put it in “”! GARVIN!!!

“No hard feelings” is mutual. If you ever want to borrow the blinders that help me to not “see how wrong he is”, just PM me, I’ll be happy to sell you a pair!

😉

Linux Users Are Obnoxious

In reply to Very Well Put indeed

I use Windoze and SuSe. About 4 years ago I began to lear Linux on my own and at work. Back then I began with RedHat. I was having some problems right off the bat recompiling the kernal for a device driver. I found a message board (IRC) went in and posted a question. I cannot repeat what was thrown at me. The arrogance was one thing, but these people are not only nasty, but also sociopathic.

I’m not saying Windoze people cannot be arrogant-I work with a few. Both there are lot of Linux people out there that are very angry. I know several UNIX admins and they don’t even come close.

As A UNIX admin I need to take lessons from Linux users

In reply to Linux Users Are Obnoxious

Apotheon, How can I become obnoxious to these morons, besides ignoring them…

Tim

baby steps

In reply to As A UNIX admin I need to take lessons from Linux users

Start small. From “ignore them”, you should first try getting comfortable with something that’s only one step removed from that. Try giving a knowing, indulgent look and saying “Here’s a nickel, kid. Buy yourself a real computer.” Once you’ve mastered that, get back to me.

IRC?

In reply to Linux Users Are Obnoxious

You’re trying to blame the failings of IRC trolls on Linux?

If you want good attitudes and people who aren’t obnoxious, IRC typically isn’t the place to find them.

Agreed!

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

This is it in a nutshell guys.

My personal preference is Novell SuSE, because I have had only good experience from Novell, and because I like the practicality of the operating system itself. Linux is okay on it’s own, but I do not dig deeper than I need to to fix problems. I use all other operating systems, because my objective, as a technical support person, is to meet the needs of the end user, not to be the best “linux h4xx0rz” ever. There are many professionals on every side, but it’s not the professionals that fight. Do you guys see Linux Torvalds here bickering? Do you see the CEO of Novell saying that everybody else sucks? Sure, these guys are aiming at MS’s throat, but they do not waste time with petty bickering.

Put in a nutshell, all this bickering could be put into more productive means, like being the best **** tech you can be.

Anyhow, that’s just my take on life,
–Nick Schmidt

Kids…

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

could it be that we’re all just a bunch of over-grown kids (at heart anyway) playing in an electronic sandbox, with super-charged electro toys? I agree, that sometimes it sounds like mindless bickering, when someone is being criticle (not always a bad thing). We should all remember, critisism, only when constructive, is benificial.
I also have to say, it’s easy, when one has a way that works, to just comment: ‘Do it my way, and it will work.’ I think we ALL have done that at one time or another.
… and grow-up — NEVER.!. Older is wiser, yes, use a little maturity, yes. But we all need a kids sense of adventure. (and a little humor)
…just my 2 cents. 🙂 -d

Well like some others I use

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

The best tool for the job that I’m currently working on and when it comes to OS’s that can be anything that is best for the customers needs.

There is no [b]Perfect[/b] OS and there never will be, but saying that I can still grumble about MS and their products without meaning to bash them over the head as some take it anyway. I see shortcomings in every OS it’s just a matter of which tool best fits the job in hand at the time and that can vary from job to job.

As I think that this entire thread was started because of at best a badly worded thread about USB2 or it may have been a outright Flame of MS but I chose to take it as just a poorly worded question that was posted in the [b]Heat of the Moment[/b] when a solution appeared not to be forthcoming to a penitential very real problem that has arisen from MS policy.

Some may have read it differently but I read it the way that I read it and I’m sure that others read it the way that they wanted to see things. But honestly it was very badly worded and could be taken in many ways.

The things that gets to me is the way the [b]True Believers[/b] on any side just have to insist that theirs is the better option when really there is no [b]Perfect Solution.[/b]

The best that we can hope for is to have a reliable fairly secure network that isn’t adversely affected every time that a new piece of nasty code is released onto the net and infects hundred of thousands of machines and is replicating out of control so we have to push through patches to avoid becoming infected without the proper testing.

Col

Amen

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

I wish this had been posted on another day than 4/1! But I completely agree. I use whatever I can get my hands on for the need, and focus on getting the job done. Competition can be healthy, but it would do us all much good to collaborate – to improve MS vs. Nix, instead of polarizing the masses. The more the brands compete, the better it will be for all of us.

boils down to $$

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

The next best selling [which equates to $$]word processor program, spreadsheet program, browser, is hard to create on a Windows platform because Microsoft also creates the same thing. Difficult to compete with a company that not only makes the O/S but all the productivity software that users use. That’s what the EU is all in a twist about. $$.

Programmers like to use Linux, Unix, etc that provide them a O/S platform that they can create their own programs on, in the hopes of selling the thing. MS DOS provided such a platform back in the “good ole days” before Windows. Back then there were 3 or 4 competing word processing programs [WordPerfect, Display Writer, WordStar, MS Word,] today, the world uses MS Word. Lotus 123 was the spreadsheet program in the days of DOS. Everyone used it, but there were other ones. Boeing created their own called BoeingCalc.

Windows 95, then 98 and on up to XP allowed the average Joe User to own a computer and not be a nerd.

Windows is successful for that reason. The average Joe can own a computer,install software, surf the net and not have to understand how a computer works to get it to work.

It Almost Always Boils Down to $

In reply to boils down to $$

Ever wonder why MA is suing Walmart because they don’t offer stellar health insurance to their employees but yet we are now engaged in a debate over immigration where most of the illegals coming here get zero health insurance and below minimum wage?

The politicans are asking us to have a “humane” debate and treat them with dignity and respect, yet we are really just opening the flood gates so that millions of Mexicans can come here and get used and abused by businesses.

Aren’t we really just letting them come here and become citizens just so we don’t have to feel as bad when they go to work everyday in their sweatshops.

Ever notice that the NBA, NCAA, NFL, or MLB never get sued for being a monoply?

About a year ago, the debate in the US was about a “living wage”. How quickly we drop that and move onto the exploitation of “guest workers”.

This world is sick, man.

For me, it boils down to ???

In reply to boils down to $$

CG IT: “Windows is successful for that reason. The average Joe can own a computer,install software, surf the net and not have to understand how a computer works to get it to work.”

Whether they’re nerds or some other category, people are stealing your identity. Why would you be willing to use a computer without understanding how it works?

Get Real

In reply to For me, it boils down to ???

We all use products everyday that are just as important as a computer in our daily lives and most have no clue how they work.

Aside from just the very basics, I don’t have a clue how a microware truly works, I only have a very rudimentary understanding of cars, and do you really think that most accountants know what makes a calculator work?

There are millions of knowledge workers around the globe that use products every day that don’t require an understanding of the product itself.

Your question was swallow at best.

“swallow at best”?

In reply to Get Real

Careful, you kiss apotheon’s butt with that mouth!

Microwaves, cars and calculators are not networked, thus cannot help thieves steal your identity.

Your answer was irrelevant, ignored the crucial reason to understand a computer before using it for anything of personal importance, and only reduced my opinion of you.

can’t . . . breathe . . .

In reply to “swallow at best”?

“Careful, you kiss apotheon’s butt with that mouth!”

I haven’t laughed that long, hard, and loud for a long time.

Computers != Toasters

In reply to Get Real

The my toaster doesn’t store personal information, and neither do any of your examples.

The second people realize that a computer is not a typical appliance, is the second people realize they have to KNOW something about them.

And that is the exact problem isn’t it?

In reply to Computers != Toasters

Currently computers are sold as appliances in the white goods section of the hypermarkets and to the general public at least they are in the same department as a toaster so they are treated as such.

The number of times that I’ve had to rescue an old computer from being thrown out because it’s no longer the top model or doesn’t play the games that the owner wants is amusing particularly when they have been doing their banking on the same machine and just have no idea of what is on the HDD.

When Windows 95 Hit the streets the knowledge of the end users plummeted to new lows and with each subsequent release of Windows there is less knowledge required to use the things.

One of the best examples that I’ve run across was here on the TQ&A section where someone was asking for help as they where trying to reload their computer and it keep going to the same screen and formatting the HDD then loading the necessary drivers and on the reboot they kept pressing any key and ended up exactly where they started off and couldn’t understand why it wasn’t loading XP. :^0

While initially I did get a laugh I then began to wonder just how little that this person actually knew and why they where using a computer in the first place. 🙁

When you see people like this around it’s hard to understand how they maintain their identity not how they get their identity stolen. 😉

Col ]:)

I Personally

In reply to And that is the exact problem isn’t it?

Think that the more people use computers the better.

Yes, there needs to be a more organized effort at educating them, but that is our job isn’t it?

But no, I don’t think that end users need to be all that educated. Your opinion is biased by the fact you work in this industry.

An end user needs to know no more than is necessary to get their job done and done securely.

Sure, I’d love to train everyone to a greater depth. But that isn’t going to happen.

The best we can hope for is some minimal amount that is enough to get the job done, stay relatively secure, etc.

You’ve got to remember that a computer is the means to an end and not the end itself.

Well Abs my mother could use her computer

In reply to For me, it boils down to ???

IN the DOS days I just set up a 286 which was the latest thing at the time ran DR DOS on it and placed a menu system that loaded when the computer booted up.

She could then pick from Word Processor e-mail or whatever with out a problem but since I’ve moved her to 98 she can not understand why she has to click on the [b]Start Button[/b] to shut the thing down and no longer uses a computer for anything at all I have to go over there and do anything that she wants done now. I’m considering moving her P3 back to DOS and leave her to is as she understands how to work it even if she doesn’t have a clue as to how it works or what is what as she constantly calls the Monitor the Computer as it is what she sees everything on so to her at least that is the important part of the entire thing. :^0

But now she is 78 years old I’m not expecting any change and I’m not willing to move her to XP as the change would be too much for her and she doesn’t need all the [b]Eye Candy[/b] as currently she doesn’t even use the computer her two grandchildren from my sister get more use out of it than she ever will.

Col

I agree, HAL9000

In reply to Well Abs my mother could use her computer

Even DOS is better than Windows!

DOS: 2, Windows: 0

In reply to Well Abs my mother could use her computer

Windows looks like a television program, and a cartoon at that.

DOS looks like a [b]computer[/b] should.

More importantly, DOS could [b]compute![/b] Windows are just for peering, and too oftern, breaking.

Wha – Where you all come from – Ebay my friend

In reply to DOS: 2, Windows: 0

We seem to have all this anti-MS on MS PC – that says alot.

Simply fix – no fret – get your fixing at Ebay – MSDOS – I am sure you can it for pennies on the dollar now – Linux – heck just download it, Apple – go pick one, Unix – go build – what?s all the fret. I am sure Billy wonders why anti-MS people fret at his products while he buys a pina colada with the last purchase of XP from a linux user.

Thank goodness for Ebay and pina coladas

Where did that come from?

In reply to Wha – Where you all come from – Ebay my friend

You’ve completely lost me there but just for your information MS still sells DOS I buy a couple of copies per year for some specialist work that required DOS.

As far as buying MS DOS from E Bay goes that would be breaching the MS EULA which I for one am unwilling to do but I suppose that you aren’t the slightest bit concerned about MS taking you to court for Piracy are you?

I however lack the time and inclination to do this particularly as I don’t need to upset MS at all as it would ruin the relationship that I have with many of their techs who ring me when they run into a unsolvable problem for a quick work around.

I just fail to see how you can take the above as an attack on MS when it’s all about how a single end user sees how a system works and can understand one buy not another so she doesn’t use the supposedly better option.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me on that issue.

Col

Reply To: Why the Constant Arguing

In reply to Where did that come from?

Sure, let me start by saying my software is licensed and yes I do care about being taken to court. I didn’t take the above as attack so my apologies if I came off as ranting. My point is based on your second to last sentence.

There is a lot of chatter in both direction and maybe more in one way than the other, but why, when the better option is solely left up to the user not the other guy.

Kewl!

In reply to Wha – Where you all come from – Ebay my friend

“I am sure Billy wonders why anti-MS people fret at his products while he buys a pina colada with the last purchase of XP from a linux user.”

Tee-hee-hee, good one! Yes, I’ve also bought a couple of Windows, but I prefer Linux. And to be completely honest, I don’t mind at all that it looks like a Macintosh, or a certain famous Macintosh clone, it does make installation & configuration simpler, but unfortunately blurs the difference between computer and toaster. I’d rather marvel at the mega- or giga-flops per second crunching numbers than whine that I have too few of them for the latest video game. You may think this makes me ungrateful, I don’t care: I appreciate pina coladas, but for all I care you can stick eBay where the sun don’t shine.

I must agree

In reply to Kewl!

Exactly – Toasters rule the day – I rather crunch a toasty sandwich than byte on a bit 😉

bash is dead! Long live bash!

In reply to DOS: 2, Windows: 0

And you can even make it print the words in pretty colors!

At least with DOS, when your program crashed, you were already at the command line. The difference between Windows 3.1 and Windows XP is that when 3.1 crashed, all I had to do was type “win” and press enter. When XP crashes, it takes a whole reboot (and sometimes two) to get a desktop back.

Well Said, CG

In reply to boils down to $$

Like many others here I have programmed on a variety of systems, including Windows (in the past), but in the mid nineties, M/S seems to have decided to lock us all out of the competition.

Their documentation disintegrated, their programming packages grew unhelpful wizards with code bloat that made determining how to fix problems and where to fix them a real puzzle to solve.

I have enough trouble with my own code (lots of AI, graphics, DSP and so forth). Windows doubles or quadruples my work effort to get simple code working. About a year ago I had the last straw.

It took me nearly three days to port a DSP routine from a UNIX C code to VB code. Not because my code was bad, but because the darn system rebooted no less than once every 20 minutes. This was in VBA under Excel.

It was the last straw for me. I love programming, working out new tools to do difficult jobs, ensuring my code is repeatable, dependable and generally fail safe. So to have to put my craft in such an environment makes my work look less than robust. Ergo, I look bad when the problems are not of my own making. Worse there is almost no way to figure out simply where to optimize such code as VBA. I could port the routine in C, except Microsoft makes the interface so awkard that it slowed down the runtime pathetically.

I had to deliver it in VB, and even after the third day of tracing the faults and coding around the system deficiencies, I still did not have confidence that it would run reliably.

Thanks but no thanks. That was my last piece of professional programming in Windows. However I still use windows for some things, but I am reconsidering so that I need only have one OS and machine for future personal development and growth.

Regards,
Les H

Oh waaaaa!

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

These diecussion forums are a place of often heated and very passionate debates, that’s what they are here for. You make a ‘claim’and then publicly welcome others to comment on your feelings, that’s just the way it is, unless you wish to contest and support your own claims.

The opposite would be disasterous. Who wants to read a thread where everyone just agrees with the initial post? Where’s the discussion/debate/meat and potatoes in that?

If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I see you are making friends again Oz ;-)

In reply to Oh waaaaa!

NT

Seriously, what a PUTZ!

In reply to I see you are making friends again Oz ;-)

Sorry but I don’t need such friends anyway. My friends don’t whine, they just get it done.

It’s no worse than all the idiots who come here and complain that they haven’t worked in two years because their job was outsourced. Who f****n cares? Get another job doing something else if nobody will hand you a job. Not trained for anything else? You should have considered that when you wasted thousands and years on IT training. I just have no patience for victims, sorry. There are those who succeed and there are those who are always ‘victims’ of something. Victims are usually quite vocal about their own ideas until they are contested, then everyone else is just being mean for not lapping up their thoughts like hungry puppies.

No time for pus*ies in my world, ‘kin whiners!

LOL

In reply to Seriously, what a PUTZ!

Re: “It’s no worse than all the idiots who come here and complain that they haven’t worked in two years because their job was outsourced. Who f****n cares? Get another job doing something else if nobody will hand you a job.”

I liked this discussion. Seems like people hardly ever ask the question.

I agree with you about the unemployment rants. I know some of it is just to blow off steam. But I’ve seen some others who find a cause in it, and that’s where I get off the train. They want to unionize and all that crap. They complain about how the executives are fattening themselves at the expense of everyone else. What they don’t get is that these things are the privileges of ownership and management. They just WISH things were different, but they never are, and never will be. They won’t understand until they’re fortunate enough one day to own or control a valuable asset or resource.

Bollocks

In reply to LOL

I do own a valuable resource, me. I checked the patents copyrights and the deeds. They’re all owned by ME.

Everybody else owns their own me as well.

There are some halfwits who think they don’t, you are welcome to them.

“I like you just the way you are”

In reply to Bollocks

Re: “I do own a valuable resource, me. I checked the patents copyrights and the deeds. They’re all owned by ME.

Everybody else owns their own me as well.”

I wasn’t even in the vicinity of impugning people’s sense of self worth. What I was talking about was this idea people have that they’re entitled to a job, especially a particular job at a particular pay rate. They’re not. It’s up to us to find our own talents and then use them. Once we do, someone will find those talents valuable, and we can trade our talents for money.

Employers are not in the business of dispensing love and acceptance, if that’s what you’re getting at. Hopefully we’ll have good working experiences, but it’s not about benevolence. It’s about working towards a common goal: to add value to each other’s lives.

What I meant by owning an asset or resource was owning a business and needing to hire employees. Or owning a home or apartment building and wanting to rent it out. Or it could even be something small like a 2-bedroom apartment and the tenant wants to find a roommate. Once you’re the one picking who you will associate with to share in that asset or resource, your point of view changes. Now instead of trying to get access to those resources, you’re trying to pick good people to share that resource with, because the consequences of picking people who are not compatible with you tends to be bad.

Re: “There are some halfwits who think they don’t, you are welcome to them.”

Yeah there are some employers around the world who like to treat their employees like slaves. Personally I don’t condone that kind of treatment. I wasn’t even going there. Your loss.

It was your last sentence about

In reply to “I like you just the way you are”

ownership that did me in.

Don’t worry about my self esteem it’s attached to my ego.
A big target, but impervious to assault from outside.

APPLAUSE!

In reply to Bollocks

“I do own a valuable resource, me. I checked the patents copyrights and the deeds. They’re all owned by ME.

Everybody else owns their own me as well.

There are some halfwits who think they don’t, you are welcome to them.”

I couldn’t have said it better. I only wish I had said it first.

If You Lose Your IT Job

In reply to Seriously, what a PUTZ!

Move to Houston…

I hear they’ll take you in. Once there, you can bitch and complain, get free housing, free debit cards, vote in two States, have your house rebuilt even though you lack insurance, and don’t forget…Democrats will take care of you.

Or, move to New Orleans. Instead of a free apartment, I hear you can shack up in a cruise ship!

Hmm

In reply to If You Lose Your IT Job

Not a good idea that. You might want to access the profile option a bit more often.
Oz doesn’t work in IT, it works for him.
LOL

I can see an unload coming at you. Hope you’ve got a thick skin, I’ve a feeling the fella’s going to cross the boundary from irritated towards quite annoyed.

My Comments

In reply to Hmm

Weren’t directed towards OZ.

They were directed towards the people who complain about losing their IT jobs.

I was agreeing with him.

ROTFLMAO

In reply to My Comments

Lets hope he reads it the way you meant it, not the way I thought you meant it.

Projection.

It’s not real Tony, remember that.

Not real….

I thought so

In reply to My Comments

After reading Tony’s comments, I chuckled and then reread yours. I figured you were pointing at the whiner, not the winner . 😉

Tony is right though, I can be pretty easy going but somehwat ‘volatile’ too.

No perfect solution.

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

Personally, I use Linux about 80% and Windows about 20% but professionally, it is probably the other way around… although a majority of my new server installs tend to be LINUX.

My point? Different OS’s have different strengths and weaknesses. I don’t care how perfect something is designed, it will never be ideal for all situations.

Yes I am generally an advocate for LINUX since I see many situations where it would be a more appropriate choice, but is overlooked because of MS advertising / predominance. On the other hand, I have also seen Linux being used when a Windows server would have been more appropriate.

My bottom line, I try to take a step back and be truely objective in every situation. Do I succeed? Not always, but I do try.

Preach it!

In reply to No perfect solution.

I completely agree with this post. I use Linux. MAC, & Windows where I see fit. For me the budget argument supports the Linux side a bit better but I will use what I see fit for the whole equation. The bottom line is user knowledge is the real power behind the operating systems of choice. Professionally I have to account for every item’s ROI and that adds a whole new variable to the computing equation and it is much more than just the computer or its operating system. The human variable is a complex player in that game. Learning curves, manpower & time for training, support, and technical skill levels available to maintain the systems needs to be defined before you make any decision. If you are making these choices out of ?emotional content? then you would be incorrectly trying to solve issue.

The big intangibles

In reply to Preach it!

There are some aspects of both TCO and ROI where the numbers are basically made up, because they aren’t quantifiable.
How do you put a monetary value on the existing familiarity with windows, the availability of professional to maintain the systems?

Proponents for BOTH sides can easily come up with a number that looks grounded and supports their case. Opponents can look at that and come up with their solution and say liar, you worked this out wrong.

If you take the intangibles out Linux wins hands down, but that still doesn’t prove you should move to linux. After all switching environments will hit you with a big cost in one place or even many. Mustn’t forget the risk factor of potential disruption, climbing the learning curve etc.

Very hard to justify that to a bean counter, if he gets a view from both sides, which even a stupid one would do. 9/10 times they are going to plump for staying as is .

There are humans involved so you can’t take the emotion out. I’m sure Vulcan’s would choose linux everytime, but they are all very intelligent chaps on the path to enlightemnent, new does’nt scare them.
Let’s face it, bean counter’s have to do a full study and analysis when their bread goes stale.

Very good thoughts!

In reply to The big intangibles

Nothing in the universe will ever be a constant as defined. Physics is showing us that everyday. Everything will always be a variable given time is applied. A decision is nothing more than a delta change in linear time. Math has shown us that. The decision will always need to assume a ?temporary? constant somewhere.

You say that we can’t quantify everything but we have to at a point in time or nothing could be decided. You are correct in stating that people are emotional and I agree but it is possible to make decisions without emotional content. Its called logic.

People make both logical and illogical decisions every day. The professionals are people who have simply learned to make more logical decisions than illogical ones. The pointer here is will the decision help in reaching the goal?

Absolutes have to be assumed right or wrong in the decision making process because a ?rubber band? will always make a bad measuring tool.

Thanks for the intelligent comments. I will always enjoy adding good information to my skills set from someone’s well communicated point of view.

I am no Mr. Spock even though I played the part in several local productions. I am a musician and love to bring out the emotional content of people with my music.

RE: Why the constant arguing? I don’t know either!!

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

Great choice of questions!

I’d love to know the answer to that one myself. I’m a Windows user, an older 98SE user, and I love it. I’ve used other OS’s in my time, but prefer Windows over-all thus far. Maybe it’s because I am use to it and know my way around. Maybe it’s because this is what I used at my job. Windows, to me, is kind of like an ‘old shoe’, it fits, it’s comfortable and why get rid of it if I like it so well.

In my experience, Windows is widely used and by more people (at least where I come from it is). Windows has different versions, Profesional for 2000, XP, etc. and people have many choices, so that makes it nice. Since I do not use Linux and the others, I really don’t keep up with the choices anymore. But, as you said, we (you & I and millions of others) aren’t cramming our OS preference down anyone’s throats, so why are they doing it to us? Doesn’t make sense at all.

The only thing I can take a stab at is that many people are anti-Gates/anti-Microsoft, so in return, they are anti-Windows. That still doesn’t mean Windows is a bad OS, even though it contains bugs, show us an OS that doesn’t! (lol) Same goes for browsers. People use IE, Opera, Firefox, Advanced, etc. and so many try to shove their choice down our throats the same way they try with the OS. Almost like a religion, isn’t it!?

We will probably never know why some feel they must “push” things at us. Again, I am in total agreement with you..leave us to ours and we’ll leave them to theirs. 😉

Again, great post!

Glad your shoes fit you

In reply to RE: Why the constant arguing? I don’t know either!!

must make walking everywhere a lot less of a problem.
LOL

You got it backwards by the way many people are anti windows so therefore they are anti MS/gates.
Many people are anti windows because they feel it is full of bugs and it is a bad OS. After all few of us know Bill or work directly for MS , most know windows very well though.

All OS’s do indeed have bugs. You make your choice on the sort of bugs you tolerate and I’ll make mine.

As long as you don’t start quoting MS FUD that says what I feel is a bug is either unimportant or worse a desirable feature that I’d be stupid not to take advantage of, you are as welcome to your choice of OS as I am to mine.

I don’t argue with people because they think windows is great.

I argue with people because they think integrating a browser into the OS was a good idea technically.

I argue with people who describe windows as a multi user OS.

I argue with people who think the user experience of activeX on the web makes the security nightmare of client side execution of foreign code palatable.

Anybody who wants to state why I’m wrong is quite welcome to. Hell, maybe I am, it would n’t be the first time.

However the chorus of MS’s company song, a Redmond press release or “it just is” are not arguing the point.

Ok

In reply to Glad your shoes fit you

Not trying to convert anyone, just counterpoints:

1) Years ago when the internet was a much more kindler and gentle place, integrating the browser did make sense. It now doesn’t and they are working on that…Vista. Yes, horribly late, but nonetheless.

2) How is Win XP not a multi user OS? Standalone or domain, we have accounts and security priviledges too. Yes, it is flawed compared to Linux, but nonetheless that shoe fits most users needs.

3) Active X was a good idea back in the kindler and gentler web days. Not now, and I think MS is trying to move away from it.

At home, I manage 4 servers, 2 laptops and 2 desktops not counting neighbors (hooked into my network…add 4 more PC’s). Not one piece of malware (serious malware) in 2 1/2 years. Windows can be made secure.

At work, I manage close to 100 PC’s and 14 servers. No cases of serious malware since I’ve been there (1 1/2 years).

The doom and gloom that Linux users claim about Windows just isn’t the case if Windows environments are properly setup, managed and maintained. Period.

You are still wrong

In reply to Ok

1) Vista will still integrate IE into the OS. However, IE will run in “protected mode.” What that means? IE is still integrated.

The New Internet Explorer

2) No, multi-user. You cannot log in as two seperate users SIMULTANEOUSLY. The problem is that it isn’t multi-user. Windows doesn’t properly track or user kernel tools to be multi-user.

3) There was never a kinder gentler web. ActiveX was MS’s way of trying to kill off Java. I doubt MS is trying to move away from ActiveX for a number of reasons, but the main one is that ActiveX is a HUGE geewiz factor.

Windows can only be made SOMEWHAT secure. The architecture is insecure and of poor design. The doom and gloom is real or we wouldn’t STILL see Beagle running around. We also wouldn’t see Windows crop up time and time again on security alerts.
http://www.computereconomics.com/article.cfm?id=1090
http://help.lockergnome.com/lofiversion/index.php/t23723.html
http://www.kakupesa.net/kakk/rant/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/19/infected_in20_minutes/
http://www.zdnetasia.com/insight/hardware/0,39043471,39210608,00.htm
http://isc.sans.org/survivalhistory.php
http://www.sans.org/rr/whitepapers/windows/1298.php
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/16/mydoom_spam/

The long and the short of it. You have 47 minutes before someone takes over you box. You have 641 minutes with *nix before someone takes over your box.

It isn’t doom and gloom, it is reality. The sooner everyone admits the emperor has no clothes, the sooner we can move on and FIX THE FRIGGIN’ problem.

Hey This is an XP box

In reply to Ok

I haven’t had more than a heads up from my virus checker about my sons temporary IE folder since I set it up, he isn’t an administrator.
AVG, SPyBot, AdAware and FF (for me) IE for him and Messenger (cringe)

You are to be commended for a a total lack of MS PR and especially the lack of chorus, bit too poptastic for me.

Providing IE free and killing the competition made definite sense business wise. Locking it in with integration was daft though. They’ve payed for it big time, when you add it to the monolithic architecture and then use it as a subsystem in what was orginally a single user OS. Well shake of the head on that one.

ActiveX as in widget dll with unfortunately two interface descriptions, was an eye opener technology.

Certainly in terms of web usability it really brought the inernet to the home. However it’s success was due to the fact that you could do so much with it. Well no, THEY could do so much with it. Was the WEB a friendlier place, perhaps but ActiveX was the tool that armed a lot of the bad guys.
20/20 hindsight perhaps, but it was deliberately open and again another route into the monolithic single user architecture.

Multi-users systems are more than logons and profiles. XP, I wouldn’t have mentioned as multi-user, multi profile perhaps, if nothing else compatibility mode disables all the improvements.

2003 is a multi-user system but it suffers from an enormous flaw which impairs all the user control at the top that they’ve now got done reasonably well.

If Johnny Noprivs fires up IE, looks at a web page. Web page has graphic, graphic passed to kernel process with local admin priviliges to render image, buffer overrun, foreign code injection, goodnight and thankyou.

It gets worse though, Johnny Noprivs isn’t on the server, RikDeity is, he’s logged on as admin with GUI, checks a web page …… Arrgh.

Kernel space and user space, the concept MS are struggling towards and by all acounts still haven’t made. In linux he you managed this exploit all you would do is ruin one user’s files.

You can set up windows to be secure, well as secure as the last set of patches and the latest signatures.
You can beef up with hardware firewalls, enterprise av, intelligent procedures etc. But its a lot of work and if you get hit by a critical that targets user code foolishly integrated into the kernel, you are gone.

There’s very little you can do about it because the security is reactive. Windows has a doorman, linux has a big lock. Get past the doorman you are in, get past the lock you are in a foyer with another locked door in front of you and an old TR download on an unused desktop.

Vista is going to improve on this, though I wonder what low rights IE is going to do to some web applications.

My background is HP3000, then VMS then VMS and NT that was up to 99. Since then I’ve done application server setups NT and Linux, but not system admin, so I no longer consider myself qualified as a network or system admin of any sort.

However before and during all that time and since I’ve been developing. I don’t write manage your CD collection stuff, I’ve done a lot of cross platform integration, so I have to know a good deal of what goes on under the lid. I’ve been looking under lids since 1977, when there wasn’t a great deal under them.

You apparently got on top of windows, where many haven’t, but your job has been made much harder than it had to be.

See not all linux loonies are unreasonable louts.
Mind you I’m VMS loonie who’s recently used linux, so this may account for it.
LOL

Windows VS. Mac

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

I get a lot of heat from other designers and also some clients who think because I use a PC running windows that I am less of a professional graphic designer.

It is total rubbish. What allot of people do not realize is that MAC donates a huge number of computers every year to universities teaching design. They also offer huge student discounts. This causes most “newbie” designers to be Mac users. 97% of the population is on a pc for a reason. Clones. IBM allowed manufacturers to produce clones and that sparked manufacturing frenzy. I used a Mac for years and even kept one next to my pc. I did this mainly for beta testing on multiple os’s. So I know first hand it is not a usability issue that make macs better.

Also, in a similar vein other web developers try to convert me to firefox because of security issues. Sure Vundo was a bit of a drag but after a quick search I found a fix.

In short I use Windows and IE. I have for the last 11 years and will continue to do so. I feel if any one company can be accredited with the widespread use of computers in such a short period of time it is Microsoft.

Accredited

In reply to Windows VS. Mac

Well that’s a nice term to use for MS.

As for MAC for graphics, I have found MAC’s to be a lot faster/more robust for graphic design. Simply due to the wiser use of resources.

Og course you will disagree, why would you possibly agree? I have contradicted you afterall.

Am I a Mac user? Nope. I do find them better for graphic design though, not just for simple vector work and stuff but for rendering, rendering on a Mac is usually much faster than a PC. What can take overnight on a PC, running at much higher spec than a MAC, can take just a few hours with a MAC. Perhaps the professional design work you do does not require a lot of redering/endless processing time.

I agree to a few of your points.

In reply to Accredited

I agree, for 3d apps such as 3dmax or maya an out of the box Mac is faster. However I have heard it is easier to chain pc’s together for shared processing than macs. PC’s when custom built can be just as fast as Macs. I do think the PC’s caught up in terms of proccessing power a few generations ago.

Also, you are correct in your assumption that I do not do allot of rendering is correct. I mainly do Photoshop and flash work. Even with large print files for vehicle wraps etc. the processing bog is nowhere near trying to render 3d.

I do use a pc in my home studio (music production) and have no problem running 32+ tracks of audio with real time effects on most tracks. Allot of old school studios are mac based. ProTools has only recently moved over to windows.

Really my problem is with the pseudo elitists who feel they are superior designs for the simple fact that they use a Mac.

This is even exacerbated by Mac putting out misinformation in their new Intel ads. “The chip has been trapped in boring little boxes doing boring tasks…” or something to that effect. That is insulting to non Mac creatives the world over.

Would you agree that certain individuals help perpetuate a feeling that creatives should be Mac based in certain industries?

Shared rendering on multiple machines

In reply to I agree to a few of your points.

I was helping people set this up 13 years ago at one previous employer. You loaded a simple app on every Mac and the main machine could use their spare cycles to help render – at night when people were gone and their screen savers were running, it made a huge difference in rendering times – hours saved.

I don’t use my Mac anymore. But when I was desktop publishing newspapers, flyers etc, it was muchg faster on the Mac than on the PC- Pagemaker was faster on the Mac than Pagemaker on the PC for sure.

But I do recall alot of photoshop benchmarks where Macs beat high end Pentiums. I think the fact that IBM did not continue to develop faster chips is what pushed Apple to Intel.

Sure there are Mac snobs, but there are in sheer numbers more Wintel bigots. Thats what gets the Mac snobs backs up.

I did laugh at that commercial.

James

Audio

In reply to I agree to a few of your points.

That’s a good point. I do extensive amounts of audio engineering as I work in the industry. I don’t use ProTools, I prefer Cakewalk and CueBase, but I also do it all on a PC, even my IBM THinkpoad at times, with little effort.

Again though, this requries less rendering/processing than Maya of course.

I know exactly what you mean by th eMAC speudo elitists, and I agree wholly. I also agree almost wholly with your comments, but lets face it, each OS has it’s place. One ‘will do’ when the other will lag, same with Linux.

EDIT: As for ‘chaining together PC’s”, I like th eway you used the MAC term ‘CHAINING’ as they did perfect the daisy chain long before MS fixed their own issues.

Bah!

In reply to I agree to a few of your points.

Lee o: “Really my problem is with the pseudo elitists who feel they are superior designs for the simple fact that they use a Mac.”

Why would you care about what somebody else feels? Assuming they’re wrong, wouldn’t their irrationality make them less formiddable competitors? And if they’re right, shouldn’t you be switching brands instead of calling them names like “pseudo elitists”?

Lee o: “This is even exacerbated by Mac putting out misinformation in their new Intel ads. “The chip has been trapped in boring little boxes doing boring tasks…” or something to that effect. That is insulting to non Mac creatives the world over.”

I’m certain that the insult was directed at the competing manufacturers, not at the potential customers. I’m not affiliated with Apple, but I’m sure they would extend their apologies for the misunderstanding.

On my own behalf, I’ll quote Oz_Media: “Oh waaaaa!”

So does Microsoft

In reply to Windows VS. Mac

I bought legal, genuine, straight-from-Microsoft full versions of Windows XP, Office XP, and Visual Studio in 2001. Do you know how much it cost me? $20 each. Why? Because I was in college at Cleveland State at the time and Microsoft offers huge student discounts.

But it gets better: Case Western students get FREE Microsoft products. University of Toledo students do, too. I’m sure there are plenty of other schools that also get this “Hook ’em young” treatment from M$, but these are the only three I have personal experience with.

Post edited because I acidentally clicked “Submit” too soon.

Ahh I see…

In reply to So does Microsoft

That’s cool. I appreciate you pointing that out. However, the MS ploy is not aimed at designers.

Here on the west coast schools such as Art Center are totally MAC based. Yet when these young grads go into the work force most of them will encounter pc environments.

Thanks for the reply…

Kudos

In reply to Windows VS. Mac

We are trying to get rid of Mac’s here (we just don?t have the IT staff to support any more OS’s) and our graphic designers are resisting (what resitsting change?).

The Mac’s have been nothing but trouble from the day they arrived. But we (everyone else in the company) are getting crap from a pair of self-important (no offence lee) graphic designers who “claim” they cant work on a PC.

Windows has its issues but it works well with servers. Microshaft gets a bad rap (not all of it undeserving) but they were a major force in making IT what it is today.

Windows and Windows will work great together.

Windows and Linux will work great together.

Windows and Mac’s, when you can get them to work together its not pretty.

Sounds Like Elitism

In reply to Kudos

I think your designers will get used to being PC based. They are probably just elitists. All of the graphics apps have the same tool bars.

One thing you might try is leaving some brochures for companies that handle outsourcing of Graphic Design. This is part of the “It could be worse strategy” in the Demotivating the work environment series I am looking into. LOL.

No offense taken. I have been a Creative Director and Senior Developer in the past. Now I have my own small multimedia marketing firm. You seem to be coming from a management standpoint. PC’s are more cost effective. That is the bottom line.

I would also like to thank you for agreeing that MS has played a major role in the development and rapid growth of the tech sector.

Good luck with the stubborn designers…

Thanks for the suggestion

In reply to Sounds Like Elitism

I’ll keep it in the back of my mind. We are not getting rid of the Mac?s immediately, rather we are trying to phase them out. We have 2 near new G5’s (PPC’s not Intel) one is in a hire contract to Jan and the other we bought in Aug last year so I?ve got a while.

While Apple marketed the first GUI and successful PC they created neither. The GUI was invented by researchers at atomic PARC (Palo Alto Research Centre) in 67 (date and spelling might be wrong but it was about then). MS created the first commercial PC from IBM parts and the first Desktop Operating System (DOS we all remember DOS) from CP/M.

Apple went down the toilet in the late 80’s making way for the Windows we know (and love?). A 286 running windows 3.1 was my first PC.

Short lesson in the history of the PC for anyone who didn?t already know it.

Well try harder

In reply to Kudos

I wrote an article about working with Macs and PCs together in 1989 for Computing Canada magazine. It is far easier now.

I also worked in a company that had 20,000 Macs, 15,000 PCs and 15,000 Unix workstations, all on the same network.

If you can’t get them to work together, try getting some information instead of blaming the platform.

James

I have info

In reply to Well try harder

what I don?t have is time. James you?re a manager, would you have me spend an inordinate amount of time doing basic tasks when I have more important work to do. Not supporting Mac?s was an ROI decision and not made by me (the lowest ranking IT employee).

Personally I’d like to crack this (MS and Mac Don?t like talking to each other because of different proprietary protocols) because I don?t like problems beating me but there are a lot of more important things (as my boss points out) than spending half a day screwing around with a Mac. I’ve delivered basic functionality with what I had (no extra resources were expended) even though it?s not up to spec and besides the CRM server wont upgrade itself.

Depends on your role

In reply to I have info

If you are required to provide decent support to all users, and those Macs are not going away, you should probably bite the bullet. Macs can join just about any network – way back we even had them able to access Banyan Vines.

If you think that management will force the Macs out of existence, then your time would be better spent on other projects.

James

Because so many of you are so completely WRONG!

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

DUH.

Why the Constant Arguing

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

Rick,

I remember back about 12 or so years ago the same kind of thing went on with the OS/2 folks. I tried to use it for awhile myself so I was in the OS/2 forums. They played the same “We’re gonna take over the world” tune that the Linux guys are doing. I finally gave up on OS/2 after a year or so because I found that I just had to keep tweaking it all the time and I had limited choices (very limited) of Natively written stuff to run on it.

I also looked into Linux recently just to see if it might be a viable thing to even think about. I went up to the websites of the major players like CompUSA, Best Buy, Circuit City and the rest. They all carry thousands of Windows compatible items, software etc. Linux stuff? Well, CompUSA had a total of 13 items, 3 of which were the Linux distros themselves. I figured, why should I waste my time even thinking about this?

Everything I own plugs in to my Windows systems and are as idiot-proof as you could get. My cameras, Pocket PC, thumb-drive – you name it, it works. I’ve also been developing software to the Microsoft platforms ever since 1982 and while not perfect, man has it ever been a good career.

Why the bickering? I really don’t know why these guys have to get so “religious” about this. I certainly don’t mind someone running Linux if they want to – go right ahead! I don’t know anyone who uses Linux other than experimentally myself – but I know there are some who do. The guys on these boards really seem to be in a “we’re taking over the world” mode which really doesn’t make a lot of sense. All you have to do is open your eyes and walk into any electronics store to see that ain’t happening. However … maybe there’s an underground movement that’s going to magically reverse the tide all-of-a-sudden and we poor Windows saps just don’t know about it!

I used to get involved in some of those arguments myself – but realized that there’s just no point anymore. I just let them go use their Linux and I go get my work done. When I need something (like Quicken or Turbo Tax or whatever) I just run down to the Office Depot, buy it and get my work done – that’s it. The whole Windows platform has become (IMHO) a very well oiled, well supplied vehicle for getting a LOT of work done with very little hassle.

Later!

-CB 😉

Windows saps ?

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

I don’t remember calling you a sap, after reading this garbage though, I can amend the oversight if you wish.

Windows Saps?

In reply to Windows saps ?

Whatever trips your trigger, sport!

-CB 😉

What a load of drivel

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

What can you do in Windows that I can’t do in Linux? What makes you think electronic stores are where people by production machines?

Just so you know, Wal-Mart does sell computers with Linspire (Linux) preloaded on them…

When I need something like Quicken or Turbo Tax, I don’t leave my chair. I just download Moneydance (or if you like gnucash) in place of Quicken or I grab Open Tax Solver or even use Turbo Tax online.

For a VERY short (and somewhat data) list of alternatives you can use in Linux:

http://www.uselinuxathome.com/ENapps.htm

Response

In reply to What a load of drivel

No one is saying that we can do something in Windows that you can’t do in Linux.

BTW, I’m pretty sure the Linspire PC’s at Walmart were a huge disappointment sales wise unless you count people like me that buy them only to put Windows on them.

Just curious because I don’t know, but do those Linux programs offer the support and guarantees that programs like H&R Block, Turbo Tax, etc offer?

And I don’t mean just tech support, I mean tax support and advice…

Turbo Tax offers it…

In reply to Response

The others, I honestly don’t know. I use a CPA, so I’ve no idea what support is out there for the tax programs.

As for support with the other programs:
Between the community support and the developer support with most of those, you get EXCELLENT customer support for something that is free beer.

“programs like H&R Block…etc”

In reply to Response

H&R Block has an online tax submission form, in addition to whatever software they offer. It probably works with Linux. In general, the worst case scenario for a Linux user is that any software made for Windows that doesn’t yet have a superior open-source replacement, can be used in Linux with wine.

They also cover you

In reply to Response

If their software figures your taxes wrong, they’ll cover the difference (the deficiency plus interest and penalties).

So a typical user

In reply to What a load of drivel

So a typical user is used to finding software online. Is that it? If it takes the user being resourceful to find software, that’s a loser with them right there. If it isn’t on TV, advertised on the web, or in a computer magazine, or on the store shelf, most don’t know it exists.

I used to “scrounge for software” many years ago when I used a minority platform. Most computer users I knew at the time didn’t care for it, and didn’t believe in doing it. I’m fairly sure the same is true today.

redefining the rules

In reply to So a typical user

When you define quality of a platform as “dominates the market”, obviously Windows will “win”. I prefer to define things according to metrics that are not derived from a desire to define Windows as the “winner”, though.

If you declare that nothing should qualify as quality without being the dominant option on TV, et cetera, then only the current market dominator will ever qualify.

Besides, you don’t have to “find software online” when you’re running Linux. You just have to open your software manager and pick from the thousands of options available to you. Try using Synaptic or YaST2 some time before you decide that Linux software management requires the user to be “resourceful”.

Missing the point

In reply to redefining the rules

The point was, the guy who started this thread sounded like a fairly ordinary computer user, though he’s been using computers for many years. He talked about easy to find hardware and compatible software that was readily available, and fairly easy to use. The next guy responded, “Anything you can do on Windows you can do on Linux” and then proceeded to talk about the online sources where he could find stuff.

I responded by saying “So you expect ordinary users to go search for their software online?? Good luck!” I wasn’t talking about quality as a sole criteria.

ABMers often don’t understand that in order for their favorite platform to catch on with the public, ordinary computer buyers need to be made aware of what they can do on the platform (the applications), they need to see it demo’d and understand how it’s supported, or as has been demonstrated historically, get it installed by default on a popular platform. Suppliers need to make an effort to go to the customer rather than expecting the customer to come to them. If nothing is done along these lines, you can have the best software around but only a small number of people are going to end up using it. And no, talking about it in these online forums doesn’t help a great deal in that regard. All you’re showing is that OSS is virtually non-existent in the end-user desktop space as far as the U.S. public is concerned, since you’re trying to compensate for people’s lack of knowledge.

“don’t understand” . . . ?

In reply to Missing the point

1. I was pointing out that [b]you don’t have to “go search for [. . .] software online”[/b]. Somehow, you seem to have missed that.

2. If you really think people “don’t understand” that Linux would, for purposes of market penetration, greatly benefit from coming preinstalled on retail desktop systems, you haven’t been reading these fora very much. In fact, I seem to recall one or two commenting in [b]this very discussion[/b] about how it would be nice to see retailers offering Linux desktops to the general public.

What planet are you on?

Yes, a retailer sells it

In reply to “don’t understand” . . . ?

Re: 1. I was pointing out that you don’t have to “go search for [. . .] software online”. Somehow, you seem to have missed that.

jmgarvin apparently knew this too. He just didn’t make it that obvious on his initial post on this thread. I reacted to the fact he referenced a web link where the original post-er could find OSS substitutes. I see this all too often in online forums, but it’s not going to create the groundswell that will make desktop Linux a huge success.

Re: “2. If you really think people “don’t understand” that Linux would, for purposes of market penetration, greatly benefit from coming preinstalled on retail desktop systems, you haven’t been reading these fora very much. In fact, I seem to recall one or two commenting in this very discussion about how it would be nice to see retailers offering Linux desktops to the general public.

What planet are you on?”

Yeah, you all are REAL AWARE. The very fact that you’re pointing out “People have said it would be nice if Linux was preinstalled on PCs” makes my point. THEY AREN’T AWARE IT EXISTS! What? Do I have to club you over the head with a 2×4?

WalMart still sells Linux PCs (Xandros), and they sell a PC with no OS so you can put whatever OS you want on it. They sell Red Hat separately. See? A retailer sells them. And there’s a WalMart near you (if you live in the U.S.), I guarantee it. The very fact that I have to point this out shows that Linux advertising for the desktop is not where it should be, that is if anyone’s interested in penetrating that market.

le sigh

In reply to “don’t understand” . . . ?

I’m fully aware that it is possible to get a preinstalled Linux system from Wal-Mart, Dell, and a slew of bit players. On the other hand, without having read about it in some tech rag, [b]we wouldn’t know[/b]. You go to the Dell website, the Gateway store, a Wal-Mart, or your local mom-and-pop computer store some time, and try shopping for a computer like you normally would: start by picking out something that has the specs you want, then look at the operating systems available. It’ll be a rare treat to even find the computer hardware package you want anywhere but the mome-and-pop store [b]without being forced to buy it with at least WinXP Home[/b] installed, let alone with a different OS.

Do preinstalled Linux systems exist? Yeah.

Are home end-users likely to ever know about it, as things currently stand? No.

What a load

In reply to Missing the point

Not only do you keep the FUD alive, but you’ve offered nothing in the way of truth.

A) You don’t have to search online. There are EXCELLENT package managers (that work similarly to add/remove programs in Windows) that will GO OUT AND GRAB THE PACKAGE WITH ALL THE DEPENDENCIES FOR YOU! I suggest you educate yourself about these things before you spout off.

B) FLOSS is making HUGE inroads into the desktop realm for two reasons:
1) Drivers are available from vendors. Vendors do take the whole idea of Linux seriously now. Sure not all vendors do, but many have started to offer drivers
2) SDL has made porting games far simplier. It looks like XGL will also improve the ability to port games. (If you don’t know why games are important, you aren’t paying attention). Yes there are SDL ports. Neverwinter Nights is probably the most popular. There are also tools to play Windows games in Linux (WineX and Cedega)

The customer MUST go to them because Linux isn’t offered as an alternative at many major vendors. So, if I buy a box I either get a naked box or one with Windows (which I don’t want and can’t return).

As far as the US public goes, the NSA is taking a good look at Linux (esp SELinus) and corporate desktops seem to be moving in that direction.

What’s the point? You spew FUD and nothing more.

Alright

In reply to What a load

Re: “A) You don’t have to search online. There are EXCELLENT package managers (that work similarly to add/remove programs in Windows) that will GO OUT AND GRAB THE PACKAGE WITH ALL THE DEPENDENCIES FOR YOU! I suggest you educate yourself about these things before you spout off.”

Okay. Apeothis was saying this too. I was just saying it because all too often I see people in the online forums saying “See? See?? You can get what you want here!” and they give a bunch of web addresses. I just shake my head. These people keep hoping that with their own self-styled advertising campaign they’ll convert the world. It doesn’t work like that.

Re: “1) Drivers are available from vendors. Vendors do take the whole idea of Linux seriously now. Sure not all vendors do, but many have started to offer drivers”

George Ou recently posted an article on ZDNet about this, basically saying that some in the OSS community are having a cow that some vendors want to offer proprietary drivers on Linux, and are proposing that the next Linux kernel BAN them. I doubt this is going to happen since Linus has come down on the side of allowing it. Not to say that he’s the “master controller” of Linux, but from what I understand he carries great sway over it.

Re: “The customer MUST go to them because Linux isn’t offered as an alternative at many major vendors. So, if I buy a box I either get a naked box or one with Windows (which I don’t want and can’t return).”

You can get a Xandros box at WalMart, with it preinstalled. At least if you live in the U.S. there’s guaranteed to be a WalMart near where you live. What I keep pointing out is the very fact that many people I run into online don’t know this proves my point. The marketing for Linux on the desktop just isn’t there. Like yourself, even some Linux advocates I run into don’t know this. They among anybody should know this, and it’s striking to me that they don’t.

Re: What’s the point? You spew FUD and nothing more.

FUD’s for corporations. I may spread around my own ignorance, but it’s certainly not FUD. But on the whole, while I didn’t know about the autodownloading of sought after apps. (easy to use installation), I knew about Linux PCs at WalMart. Can we call it even?

Let’s examine some of those statements.

In reply to What a load

“[i]some in the OSS community are having a cow that some vendors want to offer proprietary drivers on Linux, and are proposing that the next Linux kernel BAN them[/i]”
Either Bill G. or Steve B. (I don’t remember which, they’re both nuts) compared open source software development to Communism a few months ago, but I’m not holding that against all Windows users everywhere. Maybe you should take a cue from me, and not hold the rantings of Richard Stallman against those of us using Linux.

“[i]You can get a Xandros box at WalMart, with it preinstalled. At least if you live in the U.S. there’s guaranteed to be a WalMart near where you live.[/i]”
That’s mildly disingenuous — or you don’t realize your error. Last I checked, you can’t get a Linux system by going to Wal-Mart. You have to go to the website and search for it. jmgarvin is right: it’s not an alternative, it’s a scavenger hunt.

“[i]Like yourself, even some Linux advocates I run into don’t know this.[/i]”
Like me, jmgarvin actually does know that Wal-Mart has Linux machines for sale. He just knows, as I do, and as you apparently do not, that it’s pretty much a given that no retail end-user will ever be able to find them.

“[i]I may spread around my own ignorance, but it’s certainly not FUD.[/i]”
It’s FUD whether you know it or not. The problem is that you’re [b]willfully[/b] ignorant: you take someone’s word for something without examining the source, the “information” that was given to you, and the likely falsehoods buried under reasonable-sounding phrasing. Most of us who regularly work with technologies on both sides of the divide have learned to be a bit more discerning in what we accept as fact.

Sometimes ignorance seems like FUD

In reply to What a load

“Okay. Apeothis was saying this too. I was just saying it because all too often I see people in the online forums saying “See? See?? You can get what you want here!” and they give a bunch of web addresses. I just shake my head. These people keep hoping that with their own self-styled advertising campaign they’ll convert the world. It doesn’t work like that.”

Typically we say this because:
1) We don’t know what distro they are using
2) We don’t know if they have access to yum, apt, etc
3) You can get info at the web address beyond what you can get with me just saying:
yum install packageA

“George Ou recently posted an article on ZDNet about this, basically saying that some in the OSS community are having a cow that some vendors want to offer proprietary drivers on Linux, and are proposing that the next Linux kernel BAN them. I doubt this is going to happen since Linus has come down on the side of allowing it. Not to say that he’s the “master controller” of Linux, but from what I understand he carries great sway over it.”

NONONONONONONO…The FSF (the Free Software Foundation, a different thing all together) and their leader Richard Stallman said this. I think most of the FLOSS community are shaking their heads in shame. Typically we side with Linus because he isn’t a utopian.

Think of Stallman as the great philosopher and Linus as the engineer. Without Stallman we wouldn’t have GPL, Gnu, or the whole idea of free software. However, Stallman isn’t an implementer, but an idealist…philospher.

Linus on the other hand realize the realities of the situation and typically states that while Stallman has every right to say what he wishes, Linux will not go down that road. Linus understands that the FSF crowd tend towards the extreme and will eventually help drive Linux in a certain direction, however typically their voices are so shrill and annoying, it’s just easier to let them vent and then do your own thing anyway.

“You can get a Xandros box at WalMart, with it preinstalled. At least if you live in the U.S.”

You can only order it only and after great searching. You cannot buy it in the meat world, it is an “online exclusive!” I’ve stated before that you CAN get Linux pre-installed, but try to find it on a vendors web page. Dell doesn’t, as far as I know, sell a Linux installed computer to the home user.

“The marketing for Linux on the desktop just isn’t there. Like yourself, even some Linux advocates I run into don’t know this. They among anybody should know this, and it’s striking to me that they don’t.”

A major part of the problem is that there is no support for marketing. While Linux is huge in the server market, the reason it can’t get into the desktop market, easily, is not only because of the vendors, but also due to dirty business practices that MS uses.

“FUD’s for corporations. I may spread around my own ignorance, but it’s certainly not FUD. But on the whole, while I didn’t know about the autodownloading of sought after apps. (easy to use installation), I knew about Linux PCs at WalMart. Can we call it even?”

Evenish 😉

I’m glad you actually are civil and understand that it isn’t an attack, but I think most of us are frustrated by the amount of FUD (and sometimes ignorance) that is propogated about Linux. Sometimes it is intially hard to tell a Rikk from a decent guy like you…

Clarifications

In reply to What a load

The information about WalMart was enlightening. I honestly thought they were selling Linux boxes in the retail outlets. I’m sure they were a couple years ago, because I read about it. I just assumed they still were. I read recently that WalMarts now have a “Microsoft Center” in their stores, but I thought they also were still selling “blanks”, where consumers could get a PC and then choose the OS to go with it. It may vary from site to site.

I just recently ordered a couple items from the WalMart website that when I checked at the local outlet, they didn’t have. So I see your point on this.

I did not know Stallman was the leader of FSF. I think I got them mixed up with OSF (Open Software Foundation). I used to use the Motif window manager on the X-stations I used back in college. That’s what I associated it with. I just looked up their Wikipedia page, and the group is no longer OSF, but The Open Group. And it had this interesting closing note:

“Despite the similarity in name and the fact that both groups were based in Cambridge, Massachusetts, there was never any connection between OSF and the Free Software Foundation.”

I guess it’s happened to lots of people. 🙂

jmgarvin said: “Dell doesn’t, as far as I know, sell a Linux installed computer to the home user.”

True. I checked that. Dell is selling Linux desktops for businesses. If you look under their Small Business selection, the Linux machines are easy to find. if you select “desktops & workstations”, they have a selection called “Open Source Desktops”. That’s where they have them. Then they have a bunch of verbage explaining to people “these are not Windows desktops”, just to avoid confusion–they know people tend to associate “PC” with “Windows”.

You can also find them on Dell’s site by using their search facility, with “Linux desktop”.

IMO Dell sometimes misclassifies things. I recently bought a Pocket PC from them, and it turns out they classify them under “Electronics”. I kept looking under “Computers” and not finding them. I thought for a moment they weren’t making them anymore, but I did a search on their site and finally found the one I wanted.

My main point during this discussion was marketing, marketing, marketing. If you don’t have that, the rest doesn’t mean that much in the larger scheme of things.

My understanding of Linux’s history is that it started getting some buzz in the late 90s, but didn’t really get “put on the map”, where certain corporate customers started to sit up and take notice until companies like IBM and HP got behind it. Up to the present day these companies have marketed Linux as a server OS. I imagine that most corporate customers think of them in just that way. IBM has made noises of late that there could come a point where it’s a viable desktop OS, but they haven’t committed to that notion yet. I think it’s going to take a major corporate sponsor that believes in Linux as a viable desktop alternative to get it to the point where major vendors and retailers start selling it more broadly to ordinary consumers.

major corporate endorsement for the desktop

In reply to What a load

“[i]I think it’s going to take a major corporate sponsor that believes in Linux as a viable desktop alternative to get it to the point where major vendors and retailers start selling it more broadly to ordinary consumers.[/i]”
See “Oracle Linux”. It looks like it’s happening.

It isn’t scrounging for software

In reply to So a typical user

It is a simple matter of using a graphical tool like YaST or a text based tool like apt-get or yum (which also have GUIs available for them).

I simple choose the package I want, and the system will install the package, along with any dependencies, while I grab a fresh cup of coffee.

The best part is I don’t even need to reboot after everything finishes installing.

the linux religion

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

I see that you and others have mentioned religion in regard to linux proselytizers and it looks as if you’re on the right track.

If you compare linuxers to born again christians you see a lot of similarities.

They used to be sinners (Windows users), but, one way or another, they discovered the lord (linux), now it’s their mission and duty to save the rest of the world from sin (windows) so we sinners will go to wherever the saved (linuxers) go when they die.
They don’t ask us if we want to go there. They just know that what’s best for them is best for everyone.

They don’t get it that most of us sinners (windows users) couldn’t care less about linux and are not interested in going to linux heaven.

That’s another similarity with born again christians. You tell them you’re not interested and they tell you that’s because you don’t know any better, but they’re bound that they’re going to convert you anyway.

Another similarity is they stick they’re noses into discussions that have nothing whatever to do with their religion so they can proselytize.

I know all linuxers aren’t like this, but too many of them are.

Most windows users, in my experience, don’t really care what OS other people use so we aren’t forever trying to “help” others see the light.

I doubt that I’ll ever see the linux light. I’ll stick to windows and won’t get to linux heaven when my time is up, thank Bill. I really would rather not spend eternity with some of these people.

amen.

ps. I just chose christians as an example because that’s what most of us are familiar with. A comparison with fundamentalists from any other religious group would probably have worked just as well.

Praise the FUD and pass the Microsoft!

In reply to the linux religion

Wow, I have to give you credit, did it take you 2 or 3 seconds to copy and paste that?

Did you have to search for it long, or did you have it book marked?

Whatever

In reply to Praise the FUD and pass the Microsoft!

I thought it was hilarious. Although, the Linux geeks I have met have much less of a stench than religious fundies, and tend to have a point: [b]for the accomplishment of productive work[/b], Linux can often be supported [b]rationally[/b] over the competition. My experiences with Win98 will always be a selling point for Apple and whatever Linux distro seems most convenient. I simply no longer trust MS as far as I can throw the city of Redmond.

I also think it’s ironic that the OS called “Windows” is so opaque that the term “Power User” is an oxymoron without a silent “L”.

Unix held a certain appeal for a while

In reply to the linux religion

I used Unix most of the time I was in college, and used it for 3 years out in the workplace. IMO Unix’s main strength is that it’s a base-level OS. You can customize it into anything you want (though it doesn’t handle realtime applications well unless you have the right kernel for that). The downside was if you pretty much knew what technology domain you were going to stay in, it was difficult to find functionality to support it. You pretty much had to build it yourself. Once I realized I liked working in the business application domain, I found that Windows supports that better, so I’ve switched and haven’t looked back that much. As far as some are concerned, I “joined the Borg” or “the dark side”. IMO Windows has the best developer support for the business application domain. Every time I’ve looked at OSS, I’ve found it’s brought Unix/Linux a long way from where it was 10 years ago, but it still doesn’t have the level of support that I expect now for doing the work I do.

But this is just me. Windows isn’t right for everything.

What’s interesting to me is when I run into Linux/OSS advocates and they make arguments against Windows, I can usually relate to what they’re talking about, and their argument does grab my “inner geek” a little because of that. But I also remember what I gave up in order to get what I’ve gained. I don’t work at the operating system level, which is where the OSS advocates typically argue from. They really appreciate the inner workings of technology. I’m more focused on creating applications, not dealing with the OS. So as far as I’m concerned, it’s not my problem.

What does Linux not support that MS does?

In reply to Unix held a certain appeal for a while

I keep asking, but I’ve never gotten a straight answer. You sound reasonable, what doesn’t work on an *nix platform that ONLY works in Windows…Something that doesn’t have a subsitute at all.

Programs not supported by linux

In reply to What does Linux not support that MS does?

Most anything written in M$ Visual basic…
Well, you asked….

I know, I know, use WINE….
Doesn’t always work though…

better solution

In reply to Programs not supported by linux

Don’t use anything written in VB. Holy cow, is that just a bad idea. Why would I want to use an application so crummy they didn’t bother to write it in a better language?

Besides, VB is all moving to VB.NET, which Linux does support using the Mono implementation of .NET, so there’s actually quite a lot of stuff written in VB that will run on Linux.

You asked…

In reply to better solution

I agree about VB, VB.net isn’t that great either, now there’s another thats free for a year, but programs that are compiled with all vb versions is so much slower than machine code.

Porting In house code is one of the

In reply to better solution

biggest costs in switching OS.

Noticed this going from NT4 to 2k and and 98 to XP.

Now this would be really funny but for the fact that MS have caused me any number fo hard to discover and expensive to solve issues during OS upgrades.

Porting to Linux and running in a completely different language/environment in some ways is a boon, because at least you don’t assume it will work.

Missing the point

In reply to What does Linux not support that MS does?

Well this thread has gotten stale, but I’ll give a go at reviving it.

It’s not a matter of whether there’s a substitute. “Substitute” is a broad term. When I talk about “support” I’m talking about “support” for getting my project done more efficiently, and enabling me to get something useful done without understanding the ins-and-outs of how it all works. This is typically where the argument begins, because Linux users believe in digging into the internals of software. They like the idea of working hard to master the infrastructure so they can build what they want. I’m less interested in that.

The ease that VS enables for constructing web applications enabled me to get into the field, do something useful with it for customers and learn as I went along. I now understand more of how it all works, but VS lowered that barrier to entry. I came into this with a background in C/Unix server work (which I got tired of), and C++/MFC/GUI work on Windows.

Plus, if I need to build a web application with a series of screens that gets/updates data from/to a database, I like the fact that VS provides an all-in-one environment for doing that. It allows me to build screens quickly using a page designer. The designer also allows me to see a WYSIWYG rendering of the layout of the page before I run the app. The designer then links events to my back-end server code automatically. I still have to edit the source of a web page often, but not as often as I would if using a text/code editor to manipulate HTML/CSS was my only option. Once I’m ready to test, I can use full-screen debugging, stepping through the .Net code, both for my web pages and web services. If need be I can enable stored procedure debugging by which I can step through T-SQL code. Now with VS 2005 I have full-screen client-side Javascript step-by-step debugging as well.

Speaking of VS 2005, it helps out more than its predecessor. For example, If I want to add sign-on capability to a web site, all I need to do is drag and drop the signon control. It takes care of a lot of the plumbing and control flow for me, so I don’t have to write the user sign-on logic. .Net 2.0 also features two-way databinding now, so the data transfer plumbing is less laborious, and I can have it use business objects that I write, if I want.

Further, there’s a lot of intangible support. MS offers webcasts on just about anything I’d want to know to finish my application projects, and they have extensive online documentation for every API that’s in Windows. My only complaint has been with the Crystal Reports.Net documentation that’s been supplied with VS, which has been crap (maybe it’s better in VS 2005. I haven’t looked at it yet).

I’ve checked out Eclipse. It has many features in common with VS: like Intellisense (I believe), code refactoring, and it inserts code to help you along when it guesses what you’re trying to do. From what I’ve heard, some of these capabilities are more advanced than what VS offers. I’ve looked at the specs. and it does not have an integrated page designer.

I’ve been able to find some freeware and low-cost commercial Javascript debuggers just doing a quick Google search, but they only run on Windows. Even the Javascript debugger extension, Venkman, for Firefox only has a Windows version at this point.

During a further, quick search I’ve found some commercial PHP IDEs that are cost-competitive with VS. I found one, Komodo, that runs on Linux. The others appear to only run on Windows. That avenue might deserve further inspection. I’m not going to do a survey of them right now. So this is my take on the matter.

narrow view

In reply to Missing the point

“[i]working hard to master the infrastructure[/i]”

You’re joking. Right? I’m lazy. I prefer to avoid working hard. That’s one of the reasons I use (Debian GNU/)Linux instead of Windows for my primary OS. I spend far less time maintaining my system as a result. There’s a little more up-front configuration involved [b]because I don’t just settle for the defaults, and Linux-based OSes provide me more options[/b], but I could just use a default install without customizing if I wanted to — but then, once it’s all running, there’s far less work involved. One of the reasons I use Linux is that I’m [b]lazy[/b]. Work hard? Hah. That’s a good one.

In fact, even the customization I do is based on the idea that a little extra effort initially saves me a lot of effort later. The customized environment makes me more productive by facilitating my work instead of getting in the way. It serves my laziness by helping me achieve my aims rather than making me fight it every step of the way. If you’d rather be lazy up front, though, that’s an option too — rather than a mandate as with Windows, and without as much of a time/effort cost down the line.

Why are you talking about IDEs as though they’re the sole domain of Microsoft? There are other IDEs in the world than Visual Studio. Perhaps you should educate yourself in that regard. Worse yet, you seem to think that an IDE is the only way to do web design work without getting down to “bare metal”, as ’twere. Have you never heard of such WYSIWYG tools as Dreamweaver (for Windows) and NVU (for unix)?

Do you enjoy being limited to doing web development with .NET rather than being able to develop using other (competing) technologies? Do you enjoy being limited to a minority web server platform?

Only one PHP IDE that runs on Linux . . . ? You didn’t search very hard.

CoffeeCup’s PHP Editor
Amaya HTML/PHP Editor
HTMLKit
Quanta
Bluefish
NuSphere PhpEd
Maguma Workbench
Anjuta
Zend Studio
PHP Eclipse
Xored::WebStudio
PHP Side
Roadsend Studio
TruStudio
PHP Backend Generator
Pidela

. . . and, though there are a couple of commercial items in that list, most are freely available.

The main problem with the general public getting accurate information about options other than the mainstream market dominators is people like you, who see one or two comments about a subject, assume that constitutes useful knowledge, and start making up “facts” about the state of the industry. Before trying to educate others, educate yourself.

EDIT: I stumbled across a couple more PHP IDEs in the last five minutes or so.

K PHP Builder
Goblin

Where to begin?

In reply to narrow view

Re: “That’s one of the reasons I use (Debian GNU/)Linux instead of Windows for my primary OS. I spend far less time maintaining my system as a result.”

I wasn’t talking about “working hard” to maintain the OS. Did you notice I was talking about application development?

Re: “Why are you talking about IDEs as though they’re the sole domain of Microsoft?”

I did not say that. I mentioned Eclipse. It has an Integrated Development Environment (IDE). I said that it didn’t suit me. I know there are other IDEs out there. I mentioned some PHP IDE products as well.

Re: “Perhaps you should educate yourself in that regard.”

Yeah I bet you tell a lot of people this. Are you getting this off a script?

I look at other features besides whether a development tool allows me to do WYSIWYG editing of the HTML/CSS. I also look at whether it has good debugging capabilities, and whether it helps take care of the plumbing for me (like connecting to the database, getting data out, putting data in, interfacing to a web service, etc.) with minimal assistance from me. I’m interested in the business problem. I don’t want to have to deal with the plumbing if I don’t have to. What I particularly like about the most recent version of VS is it provides controls plus supporting infrastructure for them that allows me to put them on a page, and they take care of setting up a lot of the functionality for accomplishing the task they were designed for, like the login control I mentioned, so I don’t have to code it all. Maybe you can’t relate to what a time-saver these things are, but they count for a lot with me.

Re: “Worse yet, you seem to think that an IDE is the only way to do web design work without getting down to “bare metal”, as ’twere. Have you never heard of such WYSIWYG tools as Dreamweaver (for Windows) and NVU (for unix)?”

I heard of Dreamweaver a long time ago. It’s a high-end HTML/CSS editor. I prefer an editor that’s part of an IDE, because it integrates well with the (C#, PHP, Java, insert your favorite language here) code editor. Like I said, it sets up events within the code that link to the controls on the page designer. I don’t have to worry about creating functional links between the web page to my back-end code. It does it for me. One less thing for me to worry about, thank you very much.

NVU? Never heard of it.

Re: “Do you enjoy being limited to doing web development with .NET rather than being able to develop using other (competing) technologies?”

For a while I have been, actually. Like I said, it lowered the barrier for entry for me into the web application field, from the standpoint of a learning curve, which was quite an adjustment from the skillset I came from. I’ve considered expanding my skillset to other platforms now that I’m more familiar with how the web application paradigm works.

Re: “Do you enjoy being limited to a minority web server platform?”

It’s not that much of a minority. I’ve looked at some job statistics and .Net job openings are numerous nationwide in the U.S. I did a comparison a month ago on Dice. As far as languages that are used on the web and are cross-platform: Java, Perl, Ruby, Python, and PHP combined had about 4,700 openings (the bulk of this was Java and Perl, most of it Java). .Net had about 3,700 openings.

Re: “Only one PHP IDE that runs on Linux . . . ? You didn’t search very hard.”

You’re stating the obvious: I said this in my post.

Re: “The main problem with the general public getting accurate information about options other than the mainstream market dominators is people like you, who see one or two comments about a subject, assume that constitutes useful knowledge, and start making up “facts” about the state of the industry. Before trying to educate others, educate yourself.”

You act like this is some job description of mine. I don’t have to educate myself about anything before I post, just as nobody else on here does. The very fact that I get things wrong is sometimes because nobody else has bothered (I’m talking about vendors) to bring some piece of knowledge to my attention. There are a lot of times when I go out and search for knowledge if I’m curious about something, but I don’t make it my business to know about every little development tool out there. I used go searching for freeware development tools some several years ago, but only because I had to, and I didn’t particularly like it. What I often found is one development tool would have some features I liked, but didn’t have others I needed; or it would have some I liked and some I didn’t, so it was kind of a wash. I understand what you’re saying, that a few of the ones you mentioned are commercial.

Like I said earlier, I don’t like having to work harder than I have to to create an application. That was my point. No need to make it into more than it is.

No, you don’t.

In reply to narrow view

You’re absolutely right: you don’t “have to” educate yourself before spewing half-baked crap all over the Internet. You absolutely have the ability to speak with the tone of authority when, in fact, you know almost nothing about the subject you’re addressing.

That doesn’t make you any less wrong.

I never tried to imply that you are somehow functionally incapable of being an ignoramus. I just suggested that it’s not a very good idea to consciously choose that path. For one thing, it makes you look bad. For another, it wastes my time correcting you. Finally, it misleads others — the worst crime of the bunch.

edit: I don’t know how that typo got away from me for so long.

I don’t mind exposing my ignorance

In reply to narrow view

There are some people who think you have to know everything before you come to discuss a subject online. I don’t. Further I don’t see the point of it. If you already know all there is to know on a subject, why discuss it? You’re not going to learn anything, right? I don’t believe discussion forums are just places to state what you know, but to also learn something new. Programmers like myself often have a habit of stating things as fact when in fact we’re just floating a “trial balloon”. If you’re not used to it, you haven’t hung around developers that much, or just haven’t chosen to adjust to it.

One of the ways I learn is by exposing my ignorance, unintentionally, and letting others correct me. I saw you do a little of that (correcting me), but not much. For the most part you disregarded my concerns as a developer and told me I was an idiot. I don’t see how that’s correcting me. It seems more like you get off on your own sense of self-importance. Don’t worry. I’ve dealt with your kind at one time or another for 17 years. Another know-it-all is born every day.

As for your claim that you’re wasting your time correcting me, well, you don’t seem to have a problem with that. You’ve responded to just about every post I’ve made. Sounds to me like you don’t think it’s a waste of time at all, or else you’d stop doing it.

Aww, you’re just a victim. How cute.

In reply to narrow view

“[i]There are some people who think you have to know everything before you come to discuss a subject online. I don’t.[/i]”
You probably should refrain from insinuating I’m one of those people when I’ve said nothing of the sort. I just pointed out that when you don’t know something [b]you shouldn’t pretend you do[/b].

“[i]stating things as fact when in fact we’re just floating a ‘trial balloon’.[/i]”
If it didn’t involve telling other people they’re wrong when, in fact, [b]you have no idea what you’re talking about[/b], then I’d see your point. By specifically disagreeing with people about things you don’t understand, on the other hand, you’re doing more than floating a trial balloon. You’re BSing. There’s a big difference.

“[i]You’ve responded to just about every post I’ve made.[/i]”
What I said is that you’re wasting my time, not that it’s a waste of my time to correct your crap. The problem is that you’re going around spreading FUD and otherwise misleading nonsense, and it’s because of people doing that crap that a great many people get the wrong ideas about things and go on to pull the same nonsense you have. It’s a self-perpetuating problem and has little or nothing to do with the proclivities of programmers. It has more to do with the tendencies of the willfully ignorant.

Frankly, you just come off like some idiot trying to sound like he knows more than he does. If that’s not what you’re actually doing, you need some serious lessons in social interaction, because that’s how you’re succeeding at presenting yourself.

FUD

In reply to Missing the point

Let me start with:
I’ve stated plenty of times that I like .Net…However, I’d like to squash some of the FUD or whatever it is you are saying.

1) Support: There are plenty of IDEs and GUI options available. Hell, there are tons of options that make life easier both long term and short term. What is so hard about Linux “infrastructure?”

2) Programming environment: You are saying various calls are cleaner in Windows? Come on! Try to do a system call and tell me it’s easier…not to mention the wonkiness of some APIs. I also have to say that some of the documentation is a little too limited and can be misleading.

3) Web design: The same thing(s) is/are available for Linux, so what’s your point? Various IDEs and builder apps are available.

4) Support Part II: FUD. What can you NOT find in various Linux documentation? The Linux Documentation Project is HUGE!

5) Eclipse: IIRC (although don’t quote me on this) there is a LAMP plug-in available. Also, there are some other apps that have PHP, HTML, CSS, etc functionality, but not the total IDE (which I’ve never really used in web design anyway)

I’m not trying to rip on you, but I’m trying to clear away the FUD…

By their works ye shall know them…

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

On the other hand, how come Microsoft is always pushing the Windows Server TCO is lower than Linux adverts all the time. Methinks the lady doth protest too loudly.

I run Linux on all my work machines because they are built from scratch and I want legal (and inexpensive) options for web development and browsing and such – no games here. My file server has been running with no down time for the past 3 years. Occassionally we get a power failure and it just boots back up and keeps on jugging away. With other peoples windows machines all I see is security holes, spyware, viruses, BSOD, lost partitions, etc (I fix computers in my spare job).
Anyway – I for one don’t miss Windows much, although I keep a spare computer in the back room in case I have to run some Windows only software (e.g QuickTax at tax time).

Well, if you define TCO as…

In reply to By their works ye shall know them…

Totally Cool Options or Trustworthy Computer O/S or Total Confidence in Operation, then naturally Windows Server’s TCO is going to be lower than Linux. Maybe M$ is onto something.

Here’s a brief history of how Microsoft’s FUD campaign has evolved throughout the years:
http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/57261/index.html
Rickk might find this enlightening as well. I posted it especially for his reading pleasure.

Post edited to correct typermagrafical errur.

You’ve Convinced Me Linux is Better

In reply to Well, if you define TCO as…

By posting an article by a clearly biased Linux supporter attacking Microsoft.

That’s how to win people over now isn’t it?

So, what you are now the authorative source on what’s FUD and what isn’t by posting an article as such?

The Internet is so vast that I’m pretty sure if you gave me 1 minute I could easily find an article saying the exact opposite by another “expert”.

I prefer to make up my own mind using my own experiences and not following someone else’s agenda.

That article is kind of like asking Hillary Clinton if Bill Clinton was the best president ever.

Wow You Can Capitalize Words

In reply to You’ve Convinced Me Linux is Better

Why not use a potentiall biased source? It’s a counterargument to a Windows advertising campaign making use of study results produced by Microsoft “partners”, after all.

Here’s something that’s not biased:
Every single TCO study that showed a clear advantage for Windows was sponsored directly by Microsoft or carried out by Microsoft “partners”. Every company (I’m aware of) that “switched back” got rock-bottom pricing deals as incentives.

You should absolutely judge by information you’ve gathered for yourself. Just know better than to gather that information from Microsoft and its lackeys.

Agree

In reply to Wow You Can Capitalize Words

But also judge by your own data instead of relying on Linux lackeys as well.

Yes, they exist and we all know it.

Anyone should be suspect of any study depending on its source. The problem with the world today is too many people are willing to make a quick $ by putting out a study like that…on both sides.

I tried that.

In reply to You’ve Convinced Me Linux is Better

But Microsoft consistently misspells FUD as f-a-c-t-s, so it makes coming up with good search results difficult.

How about Microsoft’s internal memos (the infamous Halloween series)? Here you go:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/halloween7.html

Sure, these may be hosted by ESR, but they’re Microsoft’s own words. Even M$ eventually admitted that.

Post edited because I remembered the Halloween treats after originally posting. I’m a little slow sometimes.

Interesting

In reply to You’ve Convinced Me Linux is Better

that there is a debate at all. Wouldn’t have been much discussion
15 years ago. MS’s stranglehold is obviously loosening, and the
monopoly is coming to an end, so we should all be happy about
that. The free market is working, just slower than predicted.

There’s a reason for that.

In reply to Interesting

The reason the market is so slow to correct itself in this matter is that it’s not really a [b]free[/b] market. It’s a managed market in a mixed economy.

Also a monopoly ISN’T a free market

In reply to There’s a reason for that.

The barried to entry are too high and the need for complements too great to enter freely (exiting is easy)….

The monopoly that MS has has killed the OS market for YEARS…now, FINALLY, something is happening and reality is setting in…

Most Active Users

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

1. HAL 9000
2. NZ_Justice
3. nighthawk808
4. jmgarvin
5. apotheon

And they are all Linux lovers.

I’d bet if anyone, anywhere on TR posted anything about Windows that was positive, these same people would come out of the woodwork.

That was kind of my point with this discussion.

What these guys don’t understand is that the 85% market share plus home users of Windows just don’t engage in debates with them because it is meaningless and a waste of their time.

These five think they are the majority.

Most active in WINDOWS discussions maybe

In reply to Most Active Users

An incorrect generalization, as I have seen HAL 9000 be very fair to all points of view, and is regularly in the TQ&A helping people with Windows problems.

Garvin, while pro-linux, has always been very open in his discussions and does not beat you with linux but does counter the FUD when people make intentionally incorrect statements about what Linux can or can’t do.

Apotheon, while always right, tends to lose patience with people that again are making statements about linux based on FUD that they have been told, and are propogating the lie. The mighty club “cluefinder” is brought out a little quicker! ;\

Justice, I haven’t been keeping up on his rants and raves so I can’t make a judgement on that.

Nighthawk, tends to be a little more abusive, but hey, nobodies perfect, right?

But they are doing what people do in a DISCUSSION. Bring their ideas to the table, support their ideas, and listen to other peoples support of alternative views. That is how you LEARN something, by challenging your own beliefs and views.

People with the same views as you have, leave you nothing to debate other than who likes X feature better.

Home users don’t engage them because home users are not interested in anything better, if it requires any effort at all on their parts. If they push a button, click on a few pictures on the screen and something happens, they are happy.

Anyone that discounts or disregards any technology out there is a fool. There is generally not a single one perfect tool for everyone, and again it is foolish to claim otherwise. Use the right tool for the right job. You not knowing how to use one of the tools does not make the tool any less valid.

Who’s the Tool now?

In reply to Most active in WINDOWS discussions maybe

I prefer Linux for my software projects, as it is easier to deal with when running Java application servers. But…

If Linux is the best tool out there right now, how come it is so hard to use? I have been trying to train a bunch of people who can do anything on Windows and zOS, but Linux just baffles them.

I agree that Linux is better for many things, but if people cannot use it, then it is worthless. For example, a high powered sports car does me no good in the dead of a Minnesota winter. It does not matter how many Car and Driver articles are written about how good it is. The same for Linux on the desktop. Every December I read predictions that Linux will be on the desktop in the coming year, and every year guess what? It did not happen, but just wait until next year when Linux will replace Windows on the desktop.

If Linux is the better tool out there, then prove it. It has to be easy enough for a moron in a hurry to use it (to borrow a phrase from the legal profession). Since it is not, it will never make progress.

I’d say you’re a monkey wrench.

In reply to Who’s the Tool now?

1. That had nothing to do with what jdclyde was saying.

2. There wasn’t any (good) reason to imply jdclyde is a “tool” in your commentary.

3. Linux is plenty easy. It just [b]isn’t Windows[/b], and if you’re used to Windows you have to adjust.

4. Some things on Linux are not easy, despite the fact most things are. I’ll take that over the Windows approach any day of the week: many things are easy, a few things are difficult, and many things are impossible.

5. If you think a moron in a hurry can’t use some version of Linux, you haven’t encountered Xandros, MEPIS, Linspire, or any of a number of other Windows-alikes. That, or the moron that can’t use these things won’t be able to use Windows either.

6. Linux isn’t the be-all and end-all. It’s just usually a better option than Windows, in my experience, to judge on purely technical terms. The only really compelling reason to use Windows in most cases is the simple fact that there are a lot of other people using it, and the tools that run on it, too. Even that reason is beginning to go the way of the dodo, with the increasing ability of Linux-compatible tools to interoperate with Windows-compatible tools.

Something you end support guys always forget

In reply to Who’s the Tool now?

is that linux already is better for many of the SERVER applications, providing the tool that I was refering to. I know you in your little desktop world the same as many other windows guys, you forget that without the SERVER, there isn’t information to share, and your network of workstations lost a lot of their value. Get into web servers, and the larger ones are not running on a windows platform.

If you agree that linux is better for many things, you use it for the “many things”.

If you also believe this, why the hostile reply to me? Why turn around and demand that I prove to you that anything is anything?

Or were you really replying to someone else, as I AM the one that said use what works?

Is the determination of is something is “better” only if a moron can use it? YOU are using windows, right……… :0 😀 :p (that is just too funny!)

I for one am glad

In reply to Most Active Users

we use Windows on the desktops here, I cant imagine “Susie Q” in Acct or “Joe-Bob” out in the field trying to use a Linux workstation…I can hear them now if we tried that.. “Well this thing doesnt even have the internet installed!”(Translation: no big blue E)
and “My email doesnt work” (Translation: no Outlook icon).It’s a fact, “Joe and Susie Average” are used to Windows and dont want to learn Linux (or anything else)

If you OWN a business for profit

In reply to I for one am glad

will you really make major decisions one what an employee “wants”?

You pay “joe and suzie” to do a job. If part of that job is to learn a new version of MS Word, or switching to FireFox, or even running a linux work station, what they WANT means NOTHING to the bottom line of the company. This is NOT a reason to make a decision.

Migration to any new package takes training and buy-in from the highest levels. The people that addapt to the changes will prosper, the ones that are too stupid or lazy will be replaced.

The trained monkeys you work with can be trained if they had to. After all, these same people did not just sit down and start using MS products. They were TRAINED to use them.

You are confusing a lazy person with someone that CAN’T learn something NEW AGAIN.

A few years back, Dow Chemical went through and pulled out all the MAC’s and put in PC’s. These people had to learn to use the PC or get a new job. Jobs change, and the less you expect out of people, the less you will get.

I don’t hide that I am pro-FLOSS and pro Linux

In reply to Most Active Users

I’ve said before (and I’ll say it again), I like .Net. Some of the features are quite nice. I wish there was as clear and “integrated” IDE for Linux. “You act as if liking Linux and finding the ideals of FLOSS better than that of proprietary software is something dirty and at best suburban. Without FLOSS we’d be stuck in the days of IBM and Sun when all software was proprietary and only the vendor (for a cost) could “save” you.”

What “these five” do is squash the FUD. There is too much bogus being thrown around about MS and I’ve grown tired of it. While I do give MS some props (eg for cleaning up AD in Win2k3), I must say that to slobber all over them is not only silly, but stupid.

They have an insecure OS, with insecure apps, that are built off the same turd that they started with in the NT days.

My suggestions have ALWAYS been:
A) Deintegrate IE (Vista STILL doesn’t do it)
B) Kill the whole idea of the registry
C) Make a true multi-user OS
D) Clean up the architecture so that it IS secure
E) Stop lying to the developers about what a certain API is or does
F) FUNCTIONALITY over FORM…for the love of god, no body cares about the new OS X alike interface, where is WinFS? Where is the new functionality that was promised?

In other forums I’ve also posted that MS is going down the same road IBM traveled in the 80’s. They need to clean up their game, get lean and mean, and start over….

* Edited to add the portion in quotes.

Read My Blog

In reply to Most Active Users

Before you call me a Linux Lover.

Sure I sometimes don’t dislike Linux, and I like free over pay. And sure I have an affront to big corporations who just take all of my hard earned money. And sure I hate the OIL companies fixing prices which is illegal. But I have gone from liking Linux to supporting windows. I am not totally X Linux, but I can’t see myself playing World of Warcraft on a Linux box, but I can see myself playing it on a MAC.

And a person who starts the Thread “The Best OS ever without a doubt” in the windows forum area and is number 2 in the most active users in the “windows” forum area can hardly be said to be against Windows or for Linux.

And I agreee I don’t “engage in debates with them because it is meaningless and a waste of my time” but When you call me a Linux lover like I am their poster boy I have to type something.

Windows forever.

😉

PS jdclyde’s comment was pretty fair.

You’re Kinda Right

In reply to Read My Blog

I probably shouldn’t of included you in the top 5.

And jdclyde’s comments were pretty fair indeed. While he strongly leans towards Linux, he does give usually fair comments.

But it is almost comical that certain people on TR just can’t seem to not comment.

They must have more time on their hands than I do. I struggle to comment as much as I do and typically because of family, work, etc I go in streaks.

I’m due to go cold for a while. Projects coming up…

interesting

In reply to You’re Kinda Right

Isn’t jdclyde mostly a Windows user?

Aren’t you the one [b]starting[/b] these discussions that just [b]beg[/b] for someone that knows something about Linux to set your ass straight?

actually, yes I am

In reply to interesting

I have linux servers, almost exclusively. The only server that isn’t linux is a win2k to run Symantec AV, which I am NOT going to renew when it expires in June.

Sure, it is fun to jump on whatever bandwagon and bash this or that, but most of my comments have been for the windows users to stop making excuses for what is wrong and demand that MS fixes it. I realize they are not looking for an alternative, but so does MS, and as long as THEY KNOW that their customers will stay around no matter what, they will continue to put more effort into securing licensing for XP than for securing the actual OS from hackers.

I AM getting around to trying my first linux desktop though! Linux is becoming mature as a desktop, and I don’t see ever moving to Vista. When we move off of XP I see it being on to SuSE, based on talks with my boss. (HE is the anti-windows guy!)

good deal

In reply to actually, yes I am

Let us know how the migration works out. Feel free to hit me up for advice now and then.

Actually . . . are you looking for someone to consult?

Freeing up time

In reply to You’re Kinda Right

MAYBE they have more time on their hands BECAUSE they run linux and it doesn’t take as much daily support once it is in position? 😀

My linux servers take up almost no time in an average week, the cisco routers very little as well. After switching all of my users off of IE and on to FF, my service calls when dropped by 70%. Most of what I was doing was adware/malware/spyware removal and cleanup. Now, I come here and other tech sites looking for the new tech advances coming out to bring improvements to the workplace instead of spending all my time spinning my wheels. I have been able to put NEW things in place that have really improved our ability to communicate, BECAUSE I can spend my time looking for new things instead of fixing the same thing over and over.

Something to think about. I think my next project will be to start switching people over to “OpenOffice”. The first step to migration is to get the user used to the APPLICATIONS they will be using. Once they have the applications down, they really don’t care what the OS is, as they made the switch from win95 to 98 to 2k to xp just fine. Why? Because standare applications. THAT is the key.

Good luck with the projects. ;\

Hey pup!

In reply to Read My Blog

Decided to stay around I see.

Sure have come a long way since the “egg” discussion, huh? 😀

Hello!

In reply to Hey pup!

I am biding my time and trying to come up with an ultra offensive way to piss off people in the TR (going back to grass routes). Currently in the Brain storm phase. So far no-luck. I can think of heaps of offensive stuff to do and say but my stupid “egg” e-personality has a conscience and really doesn’t feel like it. 😀

I don’t get you…….WHY??

In reply to Hello!

I fail to understand your need as self described to get everybody annoyed and fighting. This is supposed to bring people down to grass roots? I’m sorry but I have no idea how. All I can see is that there would be a lot of horrid things said to one another in an inane attempt at looking superior.
In case you haven’t noticed, this isn’t the TR way. Here we share. What’s so bad about that? When I ask a question,even if it seems really dumb at the time, I wouldn’t appreciate it if someone were to trod all over me because my question was “Inferior” or something and banal as that.
As for the TR members being so high and mighty ” they must be or you wouldn’t need to bring us down” I have no idea where you get this.
TR People have been the most kind considerate and helpful people in the industry. This isn’t a wish, it’s a fact, read the blogs and above all, read the answers and “How” those answers are put forth.”So as not to offend”
I’m sorry but try as I may, I just don’t get your problem with TR. If they ever did go to the level you call “Grass Roots” I strongly suspect that most of us would move on to a more intelligent form of communication.
So bide your time and while you’re doing so, take the time to read the answers put forth by some of the very best people in the field today. The answers are couched in consideration and kindness. I don’t ever recall a TR member degrading a person for a question asked.
I’m truly sorry that you feel this way because it shows just how little you understand what you read here or the good people who go to the trouble of researching and writing the information down so as to help out someone who is stuck.
They do so without Rancor, Anger, Frustration, Prejudice and a host of other terms that would be easily applicable.
So you see, I really do not understand this fixation you seem to have on the need to fight.
If you need to fight that badly, go to Yahoo, Pal Talk or any other of the so-called forums who specialize in the art of trying to destroy one another.
But at TR, we know how to live and have no problem conducting ourselves accordingly.
Perhaps someday, The sun will rise and you will come to understand what you see here. Who knows, you may even want to join.
Good Luck
Aaron

It was just a joke by chickenspawn….

In reply to I don’t get you…….WHY??

At least I think so.

When he first came on TR, it was as a loud kid looking for attention. After seeing what we are about AND watching a stupid punk get evicted from TR, I think he decided he liked what TR really has to offer.

So that would be the “roots” of which he was speaking of, but I think those roots have shrivelled up.

As I said earlier though, I haven’t been in many converstations with him since, so just giving him the benifit of the doubt.

Thanks JD…….

In reply to It was just a joke by chickenspawn….

Thanks for letting me now. I really tire of this childish attitude where everything is a “fight”.
I really do enjoy our TR conversations and derive great pleasure from the observations put forth,”by the intelligent members.
So I would hate to se it slope down to this level.
I guess we’re still dealing with an unabated,spoiled rotten, little kid with nothing to ask or add. I think I ill just scratch him off.
Regards JD

Thanks
Aaron

wow

In reply to I don’t get you…….WHY??

It was sort of a joke.

But your interpretation is amazing. Jdclydes interpretation is a little bit more accurate but he’s old what can you do about that. :p

self described? what the hell is that? (please don’t answer this, although I have no idea what your talking about I still won’t understand your answer).

The roots thing was just a ref too how I started out in the TR Discusion area, not about what ever your typing about.

Where did you get bringing down come from? If any thing my goal (if I had one in terms of the TR) would be to improve the TR rather than bring it down.

Fighting you said anything about fighting. I have no idea what the rest of your post is about.

I have no ill feeling towards anyone in the TR. And I fully understand concepts of discussion etiquette and crap like that.

I don’t want to destroy anybody.

I’m also pretty sure that I can piss people of without intensionaly attacking them.

People just take stuff personally weather you intend it that way or not.

Each to his\her own. 😉

Happy Easter, get off the computer, away from the TV and go do something outside. I recommend trekking or bike riding or sky diving or if you stay at home do something two people (conseting adults) can enjoy togther, have sex\make love\****. 😀

What’s the crack here then

In reply to Most Active Users

You forgot me !

I put a lot of effort into communicating with you sensibly without any FUD.

You p!ssed on it to engage in flame wars.

Why was that exactly ?

Why the constant arguing? you like it !

Nothing wrong with that of course, I do as well.

Most Active Users in Linux Discussion area.

In reply to Most Active Users

Look who is number 2

Top 5 in this topic
1. apotheon
2. rickk@…
3. Jaqui
4. Palmetto
5. jmgarvin

Hmmmm

In reply to Most Active Users in Linux Discussion area.

I say, Hmmmmmm ;\

Jd, what??? You turning into a liberal??? Talking to NetZero??? You……..

In reply to Hmmmm

really have to get out more. In the mean time you could refer him to this. Always glad to help out.

[b]http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-11183-0.html?forumID=89&threadID=192607&messageID=1994687[/b]

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

Now you know why I like Web-Based solutions

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

There will *never* be peace in this arena. That is why I have chosen to work on web-based applications and solutions. I can use whatever script or “language” that I want in a mix-and-match fashion … using the one that best suits my needs.

But, then again, this.Will.Stir.Up.Comments();

🙂

Just Because you said it would

In reply to Now you know why I like Web-Based solutions

Your web based applications have to run on something. They have to hosted on some hardware, running some operating system. And you have to have a browser developed by soemone. No way around it. Really to be OS independant you have too write your own.

Like the Phoenix …

In reply to Just Because you said it would

You are correct, if I want to worry about those things … however, it does not matter to me if the system that hosts my pages is running Apache or IIS. Both do a good job of spitting out the html. The client side of the world can consume my codes without me worrying about many things. That is the beauty of platformless coding … not having to worry if the person consuming your code is running Win95, Win98, XP, Win2K, Linux, BSD, Mac OSX, homegrown, experimental, or anything else. The only thing I ever worry about is if the person attempting to consume my code is running in a text-only browser or not. If they are, then I gently inform them that the application must be running under one of many GUI based browsers.

So, how is it that I really need to worry what it is that is either hosting my code or consuming it?

Volley to your court …

What is platformless?

In reply to Like the Phoenix …

If it has to run on something i.e. “a platform”, is it platform independent?

I concede you don’t have to worry about OS.

If you could get your web application to run straight of the any hardware, then I guess it would be truly be platform independent. I could run the platform independent applications on my PS2 or my nokia mobile or my Casio watch.

But then again you need the OS as a platform to have an environment to build a platformless application.

And the beat goes on …

In reply to What is platformless?

Ah, yes ? one of the great conundrums of modern programming (versus medieval programming?): is anything truly independent? I do concede that both the server and the client must run on something. It would be nice if the code could exist as a purely mental image that the user could directly interact with, however, there too we are not really independent of a “platform”, are we? (this dang thing won’t work on a Fred v7.05 or Robert 6.23) 🙂 I am sure that at some point your Casio or Swatch watch will be able to consume some of my code. Your refrigerator, toaster, and dishwasher already can. 🙂

Until later becomes now ? Caio

robertson screwdriver verses philips

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

In my toolbox are many screwdrivers. I chose the
one that best fits the job at hand. Same with
operating systems.I run my webserver on linux.
Process most of my photos on windows. argueing
about one or the other is like saying one
screwdriver is what everyone should use…It just
doesn’t work that way.

missing the point

In reply to robertson screwdriver verses philips

Although I agree with your point of view, I don’t think that is any longer the purpose of this discussion. The discussion has gone on from an argument about one OS being perceived by some to be the better one.

Now the purpose of the discussion is to argue and flame. As some have admitted. And it’s fairly obvious when you read about Windows users being referred to as “monkeys” by some of the kids playing here.

Most everyday computer users don’t care enough to follow these discussions about OS vs OS except for the curious (like me). Computers, for most, are just tools to be used. How they work isn’t important.

Linux vs Windows. Ford vs Chev. Ho hum.

I still drop in on the discussions occasionally for a laugh and once in a while make a comment.

If I’m putting new screws in I prefer the Robertson because it doesn’t slip out of the hole as easily when you have to put the pressure on. But if you prefer Philips I won’t call you nasty names.

So, Torx don’t count?

In reply to missing the point

My personal fav is Torx, with all of the different sizes, just so that you will *never* have the right size when you need it 🙂

I am a Dodge owner and prefer alcohol over gas or diesel just to P.O. both sides of those arguments 🙂

Strange that it seems to always come down to a contest of one or the other, when other solutions also exist, but are dismissed out-of-hand, just because it isn’t one of the two that the zealots have had their personal epiphany over.

Gee!

In reply to So, Torx don’t count?

😀 The last person that I knew who preffered alcohol over gas was stuck out of gas dead drunk. When arrested for drunk driving he argued, “But Ossifer, I wazn’t going anywhere!”

Not Edited: I was going to take the extra f out of prefered, but I though tit looked cute! :p

Still not edited: ROFL!!! Look what happens when you type thought it, but get the spacing wrong!!

Amen, rickk!

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

I agree with you wholeheartedly! Unfortunately, the “my dog is better than your dog” attitude is common and, again unfortunately, is not limited to the computer field(s). Folks seem to have a need to espouse that whatever they are doing, thinking, eating, driving, etc ad nauseum is better than the other guys. If you do not agree with them you are an idiot and must be shown the error of your poor beknighted ways.

Why? I haven’t a clue.

A need to feel superior? Perhaps. Unfortunately, those who feel this particular need are frequently overcompensating for their own shortcomings. Trying to have a intelligent discussion on the merits and failings of your divergent points of view is frequently like trying fill the Grand Canyon with bricks.

You are quite correct, rickk. What works for one person may not work for someone else. This is the point that the closed-minded zealots of the world, regardless of their flavour of zealotry, refuse to accept. I guess if they did they would be drummed out of the Zealots Union or something.

It is refreshing to see that someone else out there is more than little tired of this particular brand tomfoolery.

Don’t be fooled.

In reply to Amen, rickk!

He’s one of the worst zealots of the bunch. In fact, he just posted that to stir up a debate so he could go around dithering on about how his flavor of the week is better than others’.

Can you buy a PC in a big box store without an MS product

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

The big box stores make money and sell only fully equipped pc’s, in which up to 50% of the price is for the operating system and the software that is offered as an incentive.

The software is around $250 to $300 US dollars of the total cost.

I tried to buy a PC from them with linux installed. I could not. They would/could not even sell me a PC without any software installed.

Dell will sell their pc with a linux system installed. I do not know if it is offered below the cost of their standard offering.

OEM agreements that exclude competition are the reason I dislike one of the most virus prone software products on the market.

at Fry’s

In reply to Can you buy a PC in a big box store without an MS product

they regularly have several pre-loaded linux boxes among the dozens of brand name and clone windoze and mac PCs and dozens more portables.

the linux boxes are always cheaper due to the lower cost of OS and apps they preload.

I’m sure some people buy them then put their own OS such as w2k on to avoid paying for winxp again.

You don’t try to “convert” anyone

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

…but MS can spend billions trying with glossy adverts, billboards, TV and radio advertising, cushy deals with hardware manufacturers and retailers, etc. Linux has nothing – no marketing machine behind it. And yet it is vastly superior to Windows. That’s why the Linux community try to push it – for your benefit, not for their own.

Granted, some of us seem a little too keen to bash Windows but we’re faced daily with the apparent unassailability of this god-awful platform. Microsoft’s propaganda prevents people like you from making an informed decision based on your wants and needs. We’re here to try to avoid that. Unfortunately some of us are a little too zealous and focus too much on the disadvantages of the opposition rather than the advantages of our platform, but if we’re biased, at least it’s not because we want your money.

I Use Both

In reply to You don’t try to “convert” anyone

WinXP at work, and XP and SuSe at home. Where I think the Linux people go wrong is to assume that the average consumer gives a crap about computers. They want to game, check email, download music and other content. They want thier PCs to be easy to use and to be transparent to thier operations. Linux OS cannot offer this to most people out of the box.period.

Linux has a future in the embedded market (Cellphones, PDAs,gameing platforms etc…)But for an OS for the “average consumer”, Linux is dead. But so is XP. The market is beginning to shed its need for PCs. In a few years (probably less then 10), the home PC will join the betamax and 8-track player. In the near future people will have internet enabled appliances such as the Razor phone, Blackberry’s, and home entertainment centers. This is where Linux will shine. However, it won’t be a closed system, but an open one coded for specific electronic platforms.

MS knows this, that is why they are attempting to leach as much cash out of thier OS as they can. Vista will be thier last OS. If they are smart, they will launch thier own version of Linux. Many moons ago they had Xenix – a MS variant of Unix- why not do they same with Linux? In a decade it will all be embedded anyway.

quick analysis

In reply to I Use Both

“[i]Where I think the Linux people go wrong is to assume that the average consumer gives a crap about computers.[/i]”
I believe you are correct in that assumption, in sort of an overgeneralized sense. There are a lot of Linux people that don’t “go wrong” that way, but many don’t pause to think about that fact and operate on the assumption that other people care, too. I’ve made that mistake from time to time, both as a Windows user and as a Linux user.

“[i]Linux OS cannot offer this to most people out of the box.period.[/i]”
I believe that on this detail you are full of it, and don’t even know it. Period.

“[i]But for an OS for the ‘average consumer’, Linux is dead.[/i]”
Nonsense. It’s just getting started. There are Linux distributions that, if they were widely available, preinstalled on the hardware and properly preconfigured for the retail end user, would kick any Windows version’s ass all over the place as an OS for the “average consumer”.

“[i]The market is beginning to shed its need for PCs.[/i]”
I think that, as a technologist, you’ve lost touch with the end user market. There are tens of millions of Americans that will be getting their first PCs for the first time in the next ten years. Get past the hype and realize that not everyone in the world is IT buzzword-compliant yet. That doesn’t even take into account developing third-world nations whose communications infrastructure will finally be catching up with the late twentieth century during that time, thus recreating the 1990s US PC industry.

“[i]In a decade it will all be embedded anyway.[/i]”
I think “in a decade” is pretty spectacularly optimistic on that. I also think that depends on your definition of “embedded”, even if you extend the timeline to twenty years. We’ll still have multipurpose personal computers in twenty, or even fifty, years — they’ll just become wearable and/or directly interfaced with the users either transcutaneously or via subcutaneous wireless peripherals (and, eventually, the entire computer might be subcutaneous with wireless networking capability).

The “death” of the PC

In reply to I Use Both

I’ve been hearing about the death of the PC for about 2 decades now.

My take:

A) We need PCs to word process, play games, email, etc. You need a robust multi-function platform with a LARGE screen. Cell phones, PDAs, et al don’t fit that…

B) We can only hope that Vista will be the last. I have a feeling we’ll be seeing server 2008 soon enough….

As for Linux not working “out of the box.” BOGUS.

A) I get OO installed OUT OF THE BOX, unlike MS Office which I have to purchase
B) Cedega allows me to play games via my Linux box, a simple download and double click and I’m playing Windows games
C) There are tons of media players, codecs, tools, apps, etc that come pre-packaged with Linux distros, what DOESN’T a user get?

OEMs and Linux

In reply to The “death” of the PC

Dell, IBM, HP all offer Linux out of the box to the general public. These are custom built loads for thier platforms. Where are the takers? You even get Free Office and other add ons. This is all free!

Linux hasn’t even come close to getting the general public interested in let alone enthused about thier product. Why? Because the public doesn’t care for Linux. Linux is free, but there is still much more enthusiasm for Apple OS X then Linux. And OS X is much more expensive. You would think that a free product would generate tens of millions of new users every year.

I use SuSe at home, but my wife and kids tried it, and wouldn’t switch. Linux isn’t easier to use- device drivers are at times buggy, both SuSe and Red Hat require frequent patching.

As said before, the desktop will become extinct as far as home appliances are concerned. The future of Linux is in the home entertainment market. My nephew’s Razor has replaced his PC. He still has it, but it collects dust in his room. He downloads songs, takes photos, text messages, emails and phones from there. He has a nice iMac. Except for school, he rarely touches it. When he graduate next month, he’s giving it to my son.

Redhat would make a killing if they would partner with Verizon. Apple makes all of its profits on the iPod and iTunes.

Huh?

In reply to OEMs and Linux

Your first sentence is complete crap. The rest follows suit. Example:

Dell only offers preinstalled Linux for corporate packages.

IBM isn’t even an OEM, let alone one that sells preinstalled Linux systems. Didn’t you notice that they sold their PC business to Chinese PC manufacturer Lenovo?

In truth . . .

In reply to You don’t try to “convert” anyone

He doesn’t try to “convert” anyone because he’s too busy trying to piss everyone off. He’s a troll.

Techrepublic baits everyone on purpose

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

Yep, that’s the conclusion I’ve come to after the last few months of skimming through the rather large volume of TR newsletters that I seem to have subscribed to somehow.

It’s pretty obvious that the editorial staff purposefully seed controversial discussions and pull them to the fore. The reason is to generate traffic,and hat is after all in their interest… it’s how they make their income and I’ve got no problem with that… but it is tabloid journalism, and I won’t take the bait and partake in the threads (other than this post here).

It’s like when Springer gets a bunch of black power people on stage and then marches out the kkk… just sit back and watch the mayhem… but never ever get involved.

.. it’s all about profiteering off the battles, not solving them.

I Do Not Understand

In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

As a user of Linux, what I don’t understand is why you would SPEND several hundred dollars for MS. You say it does what you need . . . show me what MS does that Linux can’t do. If there is a program not available, it is probably in progress.
Now, if you still like Windows and don’t mind paying the money . . . more power to ya. You’re providing job security for someone.

Breaking News:MS is Stable

In reply to I Do Not Understand

For most users, XP rarely locks up. When run with Virus Protection it is secure, and it is easy to use.

Breaking News: You have a funny definition of “stable”.

In reply to Breaking News:MS is Stable

In my world, “rarely locks up” means it’s locking up far too commonly.

Unlike Linux, Windows is highly vulnerable to viruses and other malware.

Unlike Linux, Windows is very susceptible to damage by viruses and other malware once it’s infected.

Unlike Linux, Windows configuration changes often require downtime.

Unlike Linux, Windows doesn’t have a stateful packet filtering firewall built in.

. . . and that’s just the beginning.

100% Right, but

In reply to Breaking News: You have a funny definition of “stable”.

just to give Jerome his due, those who’ve only ever experienced Windows O/S have noticed that the newer versions have be less prone to the blue screen of death. Instead, it just crashes more “elegantly” with no know cause, oops, except for the constant patching installs required.

Win2003 server is far better than previous versions but not when constant testing of new “fixes” and security patches are required.

So Jerome, we’re glad YOU think MS anything is stable.

Quick/Cheap Fixes

In reply to Breaking News: You have a funny definition of “stable”.

Focusing on home users:

“In my world, “rarely locks up” means it’s locking up far too commonly.”

My PC hasn’t locked up in at least a year because it is properly maintained. Patched, disk clean, defrag, etc.

“Unlike Linux, Windows is highly vulnerable to viruses and other malware.”

AVG is free. Spybot/Adaware/Spyware Blaster are all free.

“Unlike Linux, Windows is very susceptible to damage by viruses and other malware once it’s infected.”

See above…rarely gets infected.

“Unlike Linux, Windows configuration changes often require downtime.”

Home users don’t care about having to reboot once in a while.

“Unlike Linux, Windows doesn’t have a stateful packet filtering firewall built in.”

ZoneAlarm is free.

All my points are convenient, easy to use, cheap or free, widely available and allow one to eliminate all your points and still use the OS of their choice.

Add to that a free router/firewall from your ISP like SBC/Yahoo and one can have both hardware and software firewall for free minus $12.99 a month for 1.5Mb service.

Not bad at all for a home user.

point by point

In reply to Quick/Cheap Fixes

“[i]My PC hasn’t locked up in at least a year because it is properly maintained. Patched, disk clean, defrag, etc.[/i]”
Good for you. Mine either. I don’t have to reboot for patches, run disk cleaning utilities, and defrag my filesystem, but if you like doing that sort of thing, more power to ya.

“[i]AVG is free. Spybot/Adaware/Spyware Blaster are all free.[/i]”
So is ClamAV, and its Windows desktop version, ClamWin — and it tends to be faster for definitions updates than the major proprietary offerings for Windows (including even AVG, which is one of the best). I’m just glad that if ClamAV should happen to miss a virus on my Linux systems, the worst that will happen is [b]someone else’s[/b] computer will be infected. I’m pretty much covered by the fact that Linux patches virus vulnerabilities, rather than leaving the vulnerabilities in place so that AV software has to try to filter it out with virus definitions.

“[i]See above…rarely gets infected.[/i]”
I definitely prefer “never infected” over “rarely infected”.

“[i]Home users don’t care about having to reboot once in a while.[/i]”
That’s a very good point, mostly. Some home users care. Most don’t, because they think appliances are always supposed to be turned off when not directly being used, and that computers are appliances.

“[i]ZoneAlarm is free.[/i]”
ZoneAlarm isn’t a stateful packet filtering firewall. It’s a stateful application firewall. It needs to be combined at least with a separate socket-layer firewall to reach a level of security I’d ever consider acceptable, and it’s still not up to the standards of a stateful packet filter like iptables.

A separate firewall/router appliance does provide packet filtering, however, so with the addition of external hardware you can indeed get reasonable protection from everything except viruses and the like.

Your Counter Points

In reply to point by point

But are any of your counter points strong enough to sway someone who has been using Windows for years and years to switch to Linux…that is my point.

A Windows user can achieve a relatively high enough level of safety and security using easy, free or cheap and widely available tools.

I’ll grant you many of your points, but they are not strong enough to convert a home user from Windows to Linux. Not going to happen. At least not in large numbers any time soon.

Unfortunately. . . .

In reply to Your Counter Points

You’re right — home users tend to not even be aware of such issues, and that’s a significant hurdle in the way of widespread end-user adoption of Linux. Kind of a shame, really. It’s a lot less annoying to support unices than Windows, but most of the desktop market is still in Microsoft’s hands.

[Author]

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