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  • #2241964

    Year of the Linux Distro

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    by dumphrey ·

    Well, another year has come and gone, and Linux is still not a household name. Great strides have been made by many companies to put Linux in the hands of the masses, (Everex and Dell), but there is a long way to go.
    Historically, Linux has been viewed as too “technical” for the average user, and “nothing will run on it”.
    Of these two “faults” only one can be laid at the feet of the Linux Gods, that being that “Linux is to technical”. And, I would say this is no longer true. It is, in my opinion, less work to set up a Linux workstation (on bare metal) for office tasks then a Windows machine, and Linux window managers and desktops are giving a “windows-like” feel (though to be honest, was Mac not the first commercial GUI?).
    All that being said, do you think Linux Distros are going overboard in their attempt to “dumb down” Linux in an attempt to reach the ?average? user? Should Linux remain ?pure? and in the hands of ?geeks??
    Note: Please limit this to Linux Distros, this is not a Linux/Windows whine fest =\

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    • #2643705

      yes!, completely and un-equivically.

      by jaqui ·

      In reply to Year of the Linux Distro

      quit the dumbing down of linux and bloating of it with useless eye candy!!

      • #2643696

        Eye candy (shudder)

        by dumphrey ·

        In reply to yes!, completely and un-equivically.

        I personally hate beryl/compriz. Last time I installed Ubuntu, I had to kill and remove all related components befor I could get 3d supported video to work (ati x1300 agp). Its nice and all that its there for people into that, but they all (Well, Fedora, Ubuntu, Suse) are turning it on by default, it really should be an option durring install.
        other then eye candy, what do you see as the biggest “dumb down” in Linux atm?

        • #2643690

          biggest dumb down?

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Eye candy (shudder)

          Ubuntu / kubuntu / etc from connonical, they kill off the majority of the unix security model by disabling root login completely, when their targeted user base are so stupid they use the same login for everything.

          or, even worse, the same stupidity that MS and MAC have been doing for years, LYING BY OMMISION to their users with a GRAPHICAL BOOT!!!!
          don’t conceal anything, unless you want to be honestly accused of lying by ommision.

          I detest the stupidity of ANY distro that defaults to being in gui mode. gods, that is why I roll my own instead of using any distro.

          no grub,
          no firefox
          no gui by default
          no graphic boot
          no SOUND enabled by default.
          [ if I want sound, I’ll start the server manually ]

          I detest the stupid requirement of having a print server on every box, specially when THERE IS NOT A PRINTER ATTACHED TO IT!!!
          [ no printer, paper free office ]

          I have no use for a fax server, so why does EVERY distro want to install one by default?
          why has to have a fax server on their computers? don’t you have a fax machine for faxing?
          I agree with you on the beryl / compiz garbage, I refuse to install them at all.

          but then I’m a minimalist, I want only the hardware I have on THAT box to be supported, with minimal sucking of resources for functionality.

          LINUX FROM SCRATCH or DIY Linux, the only sane options left.

        • #2643672

          My problem with

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to biggest dumb down?

          Kbuntu is the lack of a full system. Several packages just plain failed to run right, or had tons of missing dependencies, and these were not Gnome based packages. In order to make a KDE system work right, you have to install a default Ubuntu system, THEN install KDE and use it as default session. That is bloat.
          The splash screens on boot can be disabled, and I do so, as I like to watch for issues and info when the computer boots.
          And would you mind elaborateing on
          “LYING BY OMMISION to their users with a GRAPHICAL BOOT!!!!” please? Whata re they lying about? Boot times? Services?

        • #2643667

          that comment is based on

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to My problem with

          the legal oath in court.. “The truth, the FULL truth” by not displaying the full boot messages they are not giving the “FULL TRUTH” which is lying by concealing information.
          [ using conceal information to equal omit information ]

          like I said, the build from scratch / sources method is the only way to really avoid the bloat now.
          even debian is bloated, when you try to install kdevelop ide and it suddenly picks every single optional component for kde as “required” it is bloated. it also does this if you pick k-office, or any other kde component, everything is a required dependency with kde.

          edited for typo

        • #2643664

          I see what you mean

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to that comment is based on

          And I guess I cann say it has never bothered me from a legal perspective, only from a technical one.

        • #2643612

          cheers for the confirmation on Debian and KDE

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to that comment is based on

          I cut a Debian VM a few days back and wondered if/why I was getting all KDE packages downloaded with I only asked for Konsole and dependencies (by my thinking that should have been the minimum KDE UI code needed to sit behind konsole).

          Anyhow, it was a rather timely accidental confirmation. Cheers.

        • #2643618

          I’ve had good luck with Mandriva custom installs

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to biggest dumb down?

          no fax.. no CUPS.. no compiz/beryl.. no GUI skin during boot.. no GUI login after boot..

          There is a minimum of default stuff that Mandriva installs but I haven’t had any issues with that initial glob. Once I get past the minimum and first boot, only what I want on top of that goes in easily through urpmi from a local NAS stored repository. I don’t even install all of KDE; only the minimum to support konsole and what I need from the drake tools until user programs require more.

          Granted, you’ll have a better idea of what I’m not seeing though. I’m due to have a go at LFS or DIY builds but they haven’t happened yet; first Debian.

        • #2643609

          the real bloat

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to I’ve had good luck with Mandriva custom installs

          is in the kernel and xorg, that is where most distros are installing every single device driver there is.

          try ripping out most of the kernel modules or removing video card drivers from xorg, the drivers for cards you don’t have.

          you’ll either be told xorg has to come out completely, or find you have far more free space.

        • #2643588

          The kernel is the one place I role my own these days

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to the real bloat

          Ah yes.. the kernel and X core would have everything there wouldn’t they. I thought modules where not supposed to load unless needed so I’ve always switched things over to modules rather than compiled in support. In a few cases I’ve tried removing support entirely but probably with a little too much zeal as it’s not been very successful.

          I do compile my own custom kernel though only for the self satisfaction of selecting Athlon instead of the default PentiumIII cpu type. Now if I could only find the vmware-config.pl equivalent for Virtualbox; Mandriva keeps installing it against the stock kernel even if I’m booted off my custom during the package install and I’ve yet to figure out how too correct that.

          oh well.. VMware works well enough for now until there’s a “can’t live without” reason for Virtualbox. (I do like the idea of tapping the native kvm support though)

      • #2643668

        Jaqui, I hesitate to ask, but?

        by ed woychowsky ·

        In reply to yes!, completely and un-equivically.

        Where does PC LinuxOS fall into the scheme of things? Remember, that you?ve already talked me out of Fedora Core. If I have to change, again, which distro should I use? Go easy on me; remember that I?m on the Windows twelve-step program.

        • #2643662

          Thank God

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to Jaqui, I hesitate to ask, but?

          he talked you out of Fedora. I recently spent some time “getting aquainted” with Fedora 8. Let me say, bug central. One update disabled the functionality of the firewall settings =\ I assume it will be fixed at some point. A point to remember is that Fedora is a “Testing” Distro, not a stable distro. It focuses on features more then stability.
          As for what distro to use, most are more stable then Fedora. Ubuntu, Debian, Suse, PCLinux. I have always avoided Suse, as I just do not liek how it “flows” while using the os. Debian is my favorite OS. Its stable, installs fairly painlessly. Supports most hardware, and is easy to customize. Jaqui is more of a purest then me, so he wil have different suggestions. But really, in the grand scheme of things, using any distro may be better then not using Linux at all.

        • #2643655

          suse? AAAACCCCKKK!!! BLOATWARE!!!

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Thank God

          sorry but when I try to install screem and it says apache, php, mysql are requirements of it, that is not good.

          not good at all

          novell’s app armour.. bogs a system down huge, specially if you do what I did and install it on a 166 MHz pentium-mmx laptop with only 128 mb ram and a 3 GB hard drive.
          O O
          |
          O

        • #2643650

          Bloated it is

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to suse? AAAACCCCKKK!!! BLOATWARE!!!

          And I can just not bring my self to like it, never have and prolly never will. I will stick with XP over Suse/Fedora as an only OS.

        • #2643643

          do you remember

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Bloated it is

          when Mandrake was the bleeding edge distro, that fedora is now?
          That was my first experience with Linux, Mandrake 6.1
          never went back to windows.

          But I remember the headaches I had getting it running, I’ll never recommend that type of headache to anyone just starting out with linux. most people would hate linux when they hit the first snafu.
          [ oddly enough, I still have the single cd install disk of Mandrake 6.1. ]

          ohhhh… evil evil thought.
          do not make and iso of it Jaqui, do not compress it into a tarball and upload it for people to download. do not, do not, do not…

        • #2643627

          Hehe I started with

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to do you remember

          redat 7.2 and then moved to Gentoo..one persons ricer is anothers control.
          A single disk iso… it might run on some of the old boxes I have left around here (well one of them). He, nothing worked right until you had tweaked the hell out settings, and in some cases, flat out changed hardware..
          I almost miss it. What I do miss is the economical use of resources. Processors are getting faster, ram is getting cheaper, but the net gain is small when you look at what programs and OS’s are using.

        • #2643623

          ~evil cackle~

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to do you remember

          but picture the latest crop of newbies and how they would react to those old versions. ]:)

          I think I have a copy of RH5, from a book on learning linux kicking around somewhere. ]:)

          you want old and pretty much useless, RH5 is the way to go. Mdk 6.1 I stil occasionally install on older systems I get given to me, like that old pentium-mmx laptop.
          though kernel 2.2 is very, very poor on the hardware support compared to current versions.

        • #2643595

          That Cackle was well deserved

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to do you remember

          I can easily imagine a whole new crop punding away at a 2.2 kernel on a pentium 4. I would be willing to bet not many peopel keep anything slower then single core 1.5 Ghz around anymore.
          But ya know, we plugged at it, others plugged at it, new to linux today could plug at it.

        • #2640757

          Mandrake 6.5

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to do you remember

          This was the first Linux I tried, I don’t know if it was just shear good luck but it installed easily and faultlessly on the machine I put it on. I have 2 sets of disks from a boxed set along with the box and manuals for one of them. The whole process of using this Distro made me a Linux convert.

        • #2643585

          Although it took a few hours to install

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to suse? AAAACCCCKKK!!! BLOATWARE!!!

          I installed it on a much faster notebook, it took some time, and yup, it is full of bloat. BUT, it is pretty stable (has been for me).
          It is easy to use, and most things are avail easily. However the install time…. May make someone jump to another distro before trying SUSE.
          Personally, I like the setup/speed of PCLinuxOS. But for a slower, more bloated system, SUSE does fine for me.

        • #2640786

          Thats one of the big differences

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to Although it took a few hours to install

          between Suse and Fedora. Suse is stable once its up and going. I imagine Fedora can be stable, but I have yet to experience this. Every other release or So, I give FC a spin, and am left feeling a little damp. I want to like it, I jsut can’t.
          Suse is much the same way. Its a good distro. Yast rocks. but I just can’t get into its groove.

        • #2643660

          well Ed

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Jaqui, I hesitate to ask, but?

          I personally don’t use the prepared distros, because I’m extremely picky about what I have installed and how it’s configured.

          I recommended PCLinucOS because they did a fantastic job of creating a distro targeted at people on the 12 step program to wean them from windows. That is what it’s meant for.

          in time, when you delve deeper into how linux works, you will have the knowledge to pick a distro that will suit your needs better. A first distro is exactly that, one to help you “get your feet wet” in the linux waters, just don’t expect any distro to be a perfect fit forever, until you get to the point of building your own from sources. 🙂

          PCLOS is debian based, with Mandriva’s DrakXtools gui config wizards, combined, they make for a very easy to use and powerful tool set. It uses the Mandriva live installer as well. A very easy to use install.
          My preferred web development tool is SCREEM, which always throws a crash notice on closing in PCLOS, they boo-booed on it somewhere. 😉

          Just because it’s not a good fit for me, doesn’t mean it’s not a good fit for someone just learning linux.

          edit danged typos

        • #2643620

          Windows 12 step the hard (but fulfilling) way.

          by faradhi ·

          In reply to Jaqui, I hesitate to ask, but?

          Ed, I am currently migrating from windows to Linux.

          I do not use any distro. My first real for a purpose install was using Linux From Scratch. It was for a webserver running Apache and WordPress. It took me three days (and long nights) to complete the whole book and use BLFS to install the webserver and word press. However, I learned more about linux from working through that book than any class I took.

          I know that this not an easy transition. This is actually the hardest way I can think of to move to linux. However, I know everything that is in the box. I have it neatly documented and it boots in under two minutes.

          I am currently working on my desktop at home. This is taking longer because of my now limited time. But if you really want a challenge, I recommend trying LFS. You will learn a lot, and may even develop a few more grey hairs, but you will completely understand your machine.

          However, if you are not really sure and just want something that works, go with Jaqui’s rec.

        • #2643613

          thought that was you.

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Windows 12 step the hard (but fulfilling) way.

          I saw your posting about the server build on he LFS email list 😀
          I always suspected you as being a masochist, that just proves it.. doing LFS for a first time linux experience.

          LFS actually states that it is meant for people who are comfortable with the linux command line.

          It is meant as a learning tool, to help you learn the internals of the OS.

          for the desktop build, try using jalfs
          it’s build scripts that will pull the configure command lines from the book sources, saves you a lot of typing and reading.

        • #2643598

          Yep that is me…

          by faradhi ·

          In reply to thought that was you.

          masochist and all. I thought everyone enjoyed a nice beating every once in a while :^0 .

          I have had some training and experience at the command line. I forgot that part so it is not a gut wrenching. I did use the man pages alot though as I needed some reminding on the commands.

      • #2643630

        It’s a Linux based OS.. just don’t install the cruft and bloat. (nt)

        by neon samurai ·

        In reply to yes!, completely and un-equivically.

        nt

        • #2643621

          not that easy

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to It’s a Linux based OS.. just don’t install the cruft and bloat. (nt)

          some distros don’t give you the option. they put really insane dependencies into their package lists.

          That’s why LFS is my personal prefference, no garbage I don’t need. 🙂

        • #2643592

          LFS has been on my

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to not that easy

          “to do” list for a good long time. I guess I should hunker down and do it now that the new year is here. Heck, I may even clean up my work room..

    • #2643694

      No, There are plenty of distros.

      by charliespencer ·

      In reply to Year of the Linux Distro

      Your use of the phrases “dumb down” and “pure” indicates a bias on your part, but I’ll attempt an answer anyway.

      There are plenty of distros out there tailored to all levels of experience. If you feel the distros pre-installed by the hardware vendors are too GUI-dependent (I assume that’s what you mean by “dumb down”), you’re probably experienced enough to load something more suited to your preferences.

      I thought having multiple choices and options was one of the cornerstones of the open source movement. Some “ease of use” concessions have to be made for home users, or they’re going to run an OS they consider easier, like OS X or Windows. To most home users the computer is an appliance, not a hobby in itself; they don’t care about “pure” (whatever that means).

      • #2643684

        the problem is

        by jaqui ·

        In reply to No, There are plenty of distros.

        that the distro groups have all equated ease of install & use with bloat that bogs the system down.

        You can have a full gui, easy to use distro without having absolutely everything possible supported hardwarewise.
        [ the kernel doesn’t need to be 100 MB with hardware support that is not there. ]
        Thee Graphic Server does not need to have support for EVERY graphics card that has ever been on the market installed, only the graphics card in the machine needs to be installed.

        This is part of the reason I don’t like using any distro, they ALL do stupid things like that.

        yes, have the hardware drivers available, but don’t install drivers for hardware that is not there.

      • #2643673

        Let me rephrase

        by dumphrey ·

        In reply to No, There are plenty of distros.

        I get irritated by the horde of stuff that gets installed by default with every distro, with no ability to disable before or durring the install. Examples, compriz/fusion/beryl, hp printing services, bittorrent, bluetooth… and several more but they are not biggies. My point is that I should be asked if I want this stuff, not have it on by default. I should have better control over the package selection, install process if I want. I see the need to this stuff for many people, it prevents them saying “linux is broken on my laptop… Linux does not support my printer…” BUT Linux should not ignore the above average user who has strict requirements for their box. The Ubuntu install process is dead easy, and completely useless for anything more advanced then installing a pre-set system. Even Debian allows LVM and encrypted systems in their install, and this is a distro that has a GUI installer only as an option (and to be fair, I have found the gui to be buggy, even if its just prettying up a decent “text” installer)….
        For me, this kind of install procedure is good for new to linux users, but horrid for stuck in our ways users. I guess I should have asked the question: “Do you think Linux is being Dumbed DOwn, and if so how? If not, what is the “Line THEY Should Not Cross” for you?

        • #2643582

          I agree that

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Let me rephrase

          the installer should ask what needs to be installed, not just to throw everything on there that is avail.
          I think that is SUSE’s biggest problem, it is full of un-needed and/or unwanted parts. There are tools on there that I will likely never use, and when I do, I will likely need to update them anyway. If I had a choice during install, many things would not have needed to install.

        • #2643558

          In all honesty

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to I agree that

          I would be happy with an uninstall that worked… Ever tried to uninstall Gnome Games or Kde Games? They come out in one large chunk, and take tons of stuff with them… Ick.

        • #2643541

          I don’t get where you’re coming from at all.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Let me rephrase

          You make it sound like Linux is one big monolithic object like Windows.

          I can understand your dislike for distributions aimed at neophytes (like me) that do a lot of hand-holding and “installation by default”. But why do you want to deprive me of one of those if it’s what I want? Would you rather I continued to run an unsecured Windows system, waiting for someone to turn me into a spambot? Would you prefer my first exposure on a desktop to Linux is a CLI-only installation, interface, and apps that intimidate me so much I’m reaching for my Vista restore CD within 15 minutes?

          Incidentally, the two Fedora installs I attempted (6 & 7?) both allowed me as much control as I wanted over applications. Maybe they loaded more video drivers than I needed, but I couldn’t tell. I hate having to identify components so I can get the right drivers. The only way I know how to do it in preparation for a Linux install is to load Windows first and see what Hardware Mangler says is on board. So I’d much rather it load them all and use the one needed than prompt me for what to load, and I sure as hell don’t know yet how install one for myself. Load ’em all; drive space is cheap. As a newbie screwing with drivers is too much work for not enough reward.

          Unlike a bloated Windows installation, you have other distribution options. Fedora, Ubuntu, SUSE don’t exist at the expense of other distributions. If you don’t like what I like, run DSL, Puppy, roll your own, or whatever. If you’re stuck in your ways, stick with the distro you like; it’s not going to go away just because yet another distro pops up. Unlike Windows upgrades, no one is trying to make you switch.

        • #2640789

          Hmm

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to I don’t get where you’re coming from at all.

          I need to tone down.
          “I can understand your dislike for distributions aimed at neophytes (like me) that do a lot of hand-holding and “installation by default”. ”

          Its not that I dislike easy distros, on the contrary, what I dislike is the lack of control durring the install process. Example. I love Debian, but when you install Gnome in Debian, you get a monolithic package, unlike the Gentoo builds, which range from spartan to monolithic (choice). But, I just do not have the patients to install Gentoo anymore(pain in the @$$). Most of my complaints are not more then trivial to fix once the distro is installed, except for some file system options in Ubuntu (LVM, McryptFS, which need to be “finagled” at install time). The trend in installs is going more towards “5 clicks and done,” which is fine, but please leave me some way to customize, and at MINIMUM ask me if I want beryl/compriz installed/enabled by default. Sigh. Its as bad as google toolbar. (Don’t ask). Windows does not have the sheer number of options as a Linux install, as all of the Windows “options” are third party products and drivers (MS is trying to change that though, (Looking at you Media Center XP, Vista Ultimate). And while install routines do let you customize the Desktop installs, there is still something to be desired in the way they tie in to other bits.
          Sometimes their choices are “more complete” then you may want.

          ” As a newbie screwing with drivers is too much work for not enough reward.”

          I completely agree. I hate driver issues, and lets be honest, a driver is only a few bits of code. Even “old” hard drives are 40+Gb now.
          My concern is not with drivers, that seems to be a Jaqui thing :p but with services enabled at boot by default. Bluetooth, bittorrent, cups, hplip…
          Really my complaint is that I have to do some minor work to secure my box… thats it really. Each of those enabled services not being used is an open source of attack, and consumes resources (even if tiny) while doing nothing for me. Its much like on Windows, you disable every service you can for security. And even XP does not come with bittorrent by default (im looking at you Debian/Ubuntu).

          “it’s not going to go away just because yet another distro pops up. Unlike Windows upgrades, no one is trying to make you switch.”

          No they won’t go away, but the character is changing. And not all of it for the good. The trend is there to make Linux easy. Fine. But that ALWAYS means a compromise in security. IUt can be easy, it can be secure, but it can not be both (maybe this will change one day).

          Mostly though, Im just dern grumpy. And was hoping to get some lively debate going here with some loaded terms. So take me witha grain of salt. Mostly it was just me moaning in much the same way everyone complains about their jobs. They aren’t really unhappy, they (we/I) just like to bit*h.

          “Bloated” or not, linux still runs as well as XP or better on the same hardware, and much, much faster then Vista (in my experiences). And even “Dumbed Down” it is a superior platform to Windows (In my opinion). And honestly, some dumbing down was required, to avoid those messy xfree configs and driver issues. I use XP and Ubuntu daily, and hade several web proxies built on Debian that i check out weekly or so. I look into other distros a smuch as I can, usually at least one a month, and try to give them a few weeks of use at home.
          I would be happy to see everyone use linux, or at least try linux. I have had my dad on ubuntu for 2 years now. He loves it. After years and years of Windows, he is actually getting interested in computers as fun, not just work. He has even rebuilt his own computer, which he uses daily now 🙂
          And on that note, I will take some more asprin, triple check our spam filter (crashed 2 times today), and drive out to get an estiamte on replacing the trunk lid, rear bumper, and driverside rear quarter panel and lenses.

        • #2640746

          Red Hat 7.2 installer

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to I don’t get where you’re coming from at all.

          In my opinion Installer for red hat 7.2 is better than Fedora 8. You had more control over how you set up system, you had “default” choices or you could go through the options presented and install a system more as you wanted to. Even with the more hands on approach it was not an overly daunting process even for someone with limited Linux experience. If you had basic literacy skills you would have no problem.

        • #2640559

          I will have to

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to Red Hat 7.2 installer

          dig out my 7.2 disks, but I remember that as well. I guess that is part of what I am missing in the current releases.

    • #2643634

      There will always be different distributions and different goals

      by neon samurai ·

      In reply to Year of the Linux Distro

      There will always be a distribution for the technophiles and a distribution for the “it’s too hard” croud. This is something everyone seems to overlook. Don’t like PCLinuxOS; try Mandriva proper. Don’t like Mandriva; try Redhat. Don’t like Ubuntu; try Debian proper. If Redhat and Debian are too dumb down; try Slackware or go all out and try Gentoo.

      While some distros will continue to get dumbed down, I’m confident that there will always be other distros for the server, techie and any other developer itch.

      The real loss is the continued missconception that Linux based OS are all the same OS; “Linux doesn’t do XYZ for me” – No, one of many different Linux based OS distributions doesn’t do something for you.. try another one.

      I think that continues to be more of a concern than a few distributions dumbing themselves down. Because of that, one bad distribution (and there are many just as there are good ones) represents the entire greater collection of non-Windows software turning users back too the smaller but mroe popular library of the Windows software world.

      • #2643597

        I think its interesting

        by dumphrey ·

        In reply to There will always be different distributions and different goals

        that you said,
        “The real loss is the continued missconception that Linux based OS are all the same OS; “Linux doesn’t do XYZ for me”
        I guess this mindset haunts us all really. I know it does me to a good extent.

        • #2643545

          I constantly run into people that tell me “linux doesn’t work”

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to I think its interesting

          They’ll tell me how some wifi card or some other bit of hardware didn’t work under one distribution so all distributions must be crap since, after all, Linux is all the same (in there minds).

          This is why I’m tryign to use distribution names or, at minimum, the conveluted “Linux based OS” description. At least with distribution names, you can rely on the branding to help differentiate one OS that happens to have a Linux kernel from another OS that happens to also have a Linux kernel.

          I guess it’s just another symptom of our spoonfed “Math is hard” society where anything worth working at, isn’t worth doing.

        • #2640782

          It is odd though

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to I constantly run into people that tell me “linux doesn’t work”

          but you would think they could get together and share driver databases. But i guess its part of what keeps them seperate, at least until a driver gets wraped into the kernel.
          I encourage people to try at least 3 distros before saying no to linux. (Mandriva, Ubuntu, PCLinux OS, though recently i have added Mint Linux. I like their control panels).

        • #2644810

          Three of anything tends to be my minimum

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to It is odd though

          Three different distros for comparison. Three different books on the same subject for more comprehensive and less one sided view of a topic. Three different components minimum per buy sheet for comparison. Heck, even with MS.. it’s usually the third (ie. winXP -> sp1 -> sp2 or Dos 6 -> 6.2 -> 6.22) major version of each OS rebranding.

          I’d also love to see more common driver module support. I can understand why modules outside the kernel change from distro to distro with each having it’s own philosophy but end users would benifit far more from hardware makers releasing specs too let the kernel do what it’s supposed too instead of this third party binary blob crap.

          (Sidenote): for those that didn’t see the humour in the MS bit above; it was only for humour.. let it go.

        • #2640740

          One thing I would like to add Re Driver Issues

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to I constantly run into people that tell me “linux doesn’t work”

          If you want choice stay away from NVIDIA hardware. I recently assembled a new PC. I stared the process when I saw a good deal on a Gigabyte MB with a AMD2 Sempron CPU. It had been purchased by someone who did not get around to using it so they sold it by auction and having never been used still in unopened packaging was a “bargain”. I did not do my homework, my son even told me Gigabyte was lame and I should go for Albatron like he uses. I was horrified when I checked the goods over after purchase, and found Nvidia on board network, Nvidia on board sound, Nvidia on board display, all unfriendly to open source due to Nvidia’s closed source driver policy. I was going to install 64 bit Debian on machine but have found it does not like the Nvidia based network or sound. I have ended up with Fedora 8 because it worked, I still would prefer Debian. I tried Gentoo but would not install. Next time I will stay well away from Nvidia hardware and their stupid attitude to their drivers. My other machine with ATI display, Realtec network and on board sound that I can’t remember just works with whatever Linux I have thrown at it. Nvidia needs to join the real world and make their products easy for all to use on whatever OS we choose.

        • #2644784

          thanks for the good note for me to keep in mind

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to One thing I would like to add Re Driver Issues

          I’ve been a life long ATI lover but have been left rather disalusioned by the AIW 9600 board. When your big selling feature is tv tuner software with built in DVR and your DVR function consistantly crashes the bundle or the driver update directions include “now uninstall all our crappy software so you can reinstall are newer crappy drivers and software over the generic vga driver” I gotta start asking where my money went. Seriously? ATI can’t push a win98 game’s 3D graphics without crashing out of it consistantly (Jane’s Longbow2.. haven’t found a better chopper sim yet).

          That’s really what’s forcing me towards Hauppauge along side an nVidia gaming card. I read the writeup on the 8800 in MaxPC and crap is that a heck of a stack of hardware. I was hoping AMD’s move toward open driver specs would force nVidia to open up more also.

          As for the trend to include everything onboard; bah.. I hate it. All I want is a mobo with more than three pci slots, no onboard sound, no onboard video.. for the seeming lack of that in a modern mobo; I’ve been looking at the Asus Striker Extreme. Onboard power and reset buttons, external post lcd.. daul onboard gigabyte ethernet (the bling leds are “cute” but I won’t be using a case with a window on the side). Video will be through a pcie board and I was really hoping support for the onboard sound would be in the kernel by the time I buy (or I that I could manage a free slot for a real sound card). Am I going to be screwed with anything but Windows on that chipset though?

          Also.. what does ATI have that compares to the 8800 series.. parillel pipes, skinning arrays and all the rest of it is freaking impressive.

          This is rambly but a mobo is the next part purchase in my slow collection of bits for my next workstation.

          Games used to by my build benchmark but now it’s games/VM.. I can get three VM running at the same time on my current single core but that’s not enough for playing with clustering and some other fun stuff I have on my hobby todo list.

        • #2644664

          Umm

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to One thing I would like to add Re Driver Issues

          I have a Gigabyte board and an Nvidia video card with linux running on it just fine. The nvidia network card drivers are built into the kernel (forcedeath). The chipset just works, and I can get non-3d accel video from the card with no issues. I have put 6 different linux distros on this mobo with no hardware problems at all. What modle is your board?

        • #2644547

          Gigabyte GA-M61VME-s2

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Umm

          So far I have had PCLinuxOS which had no problems but was only 32 bit, tried Debian AMD64 which was not happy with on board network. Fedora 8 64 bit works with all onboard hardware. I run Debian on my other machine which is the first time I installed this distro, got to like apt as a package manager and the other feature I like about Debian, when they call it “stable” they realy mean it. Fedora is okay but I would prefer to be using Debian AMD 64

        • #2644219

          That board

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to Gigabyte GA-M61VME-s2

          is newer then either of mine. Is it just the networking that crashes or the whole ball of wax?
          And have you tried 64 bit Ubuntu? Minimal effort will make it behave like Debian.

    • #2644688

      It should I believe…

      by naughtymonkey ·

      In reply to Year of the Linux Distro

      do both. It will create a split in distro loyalty which is already beginning with Canonical which will be similar to Windows/Linux, but it is necessary to dumb it down if the goal of having it mainstream will ever be reached.

      There should still be more technical versions though maintained for those with the knowledge to use them. That is the beauty of open source. You can do both instead of focusing on the larger market.

    • #2644662

      I would be dissapointed

      by j-mart ·

      In reply to Year of the Linux Distro

      If “dumbing down” for the masses becomes the main and only focus for Linux distros. I remember when I installed Linux for the first time one of the best things was being more “in charge” of your computer set up than ever possible with windows, you could set it up more to suit how you wanted it to be. Taking this away is a backwards step. The “masses” need to be encouraged not to be the “mindless masses” and more of the “enlightened masses”

      • #2644648

        Thank You :)

        by dumphrey ·

        In reply to I would be dissapointed

        Thats exactly how I feel. I think there would be less spam, fewer zombies, and an end to world hunger if more people became computer savy. At least to the point of being able to do routine security and maintenance.

      • #2644579

        You guys keep forgetting.

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to I would be dissapointed

        The masses don’t care about being “in charge”. They want to surf for porn, download media files, and play MMORPGs. Just because we’re interested in the guts of computers doesn’t mean everyone is. Isn’t there room in Linux for some distros aimed at them? If every distribution requires a CompSci degree and a CompTIA certification to operate it, why not have only one and throw all the rest away?

        “The ‘masses’ need to be encouraged not to be the ‘mindless masses’ and more of the ‘enlightened masses'”

        A gearhead would say the masses need to know how to install and operate a manual transmission. The NRA says the masses all need to know how to safely and accurately use a firearm. I think the masses should grow their own heritage fruits and vegetables instead of buying those flavorless suckers at the supermarket. For the majority of people none of these are a priority. That doesn’t make them mindless, just interested in things other than trannys, guns, produce, or computers.

        Making something “easier to use” doesn’t automatically equate to “dumbing down”. I assume you won’t spend this weekend taking the starter motor off your car and replacing it with a hand crank, although you’d learn a lot about your car and get more physically fit. I’m not going to use a flint and steel next time I want to light charcoal, although I’d learn a useful survival skill. I’d be more fit if I rode a bike to work, but I’m not riding on a busy highway in the dark to arrive sweating like a pig.

        Geez, a computer makes it easier to do a lot of things we used to have to do manually. That doesn’t mean using AutoCAD is “dumbed down” from a drafting table, or that using it makes one “mindless”. QuickBooks isn’t “dumbed down” from a manual ledger.

        Dumphrey, yes, there would be less malware attacks if users were more knowledgeable. There would be less disease spread if people would wash their hands after using the toilet, but that ain’t happening either. I think we can agree almost any Linux distro is more secure by default than Windows. If there are no distros perceived as “easy to use” and pre-installed by hardware vendors, the Windows users aren’t going to switch. Isn’t their remaining on Windows a bigger threat than them switching to a “dumbed down” distro?

        Y’all are starting to remind me of the codgers who reminisce about the good old days before indoor plumbing, when we walked six miles to school and eight home (uphill both ways), when women knew their place in the kitchen, “and we liked it that way too, dammit!” As I noted earlier, if you don’t like the “dumbed down” distros, don’t use them. They’re not being made available at the expense of your preferred flavors.

        • #2644538

          Let the masses stay dumb if that’s what they want

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to You guys keep forgetting.

          But please don’t forget about those of us who like to think. It may get to the stage where we will have to take the same aproach as Jaqui and roll our own ( had better go off and start to look at what I need to know to do this ) but I hate the attitude that everything has to be designed only to suit those who don’t want to put any effort into anything. Its not that I don’t mind dumbed down distros being available but I would still like the option of something that can be set up into the system I want to have. Heck if we wanted absolutly no choice we would go to windows.

        • #2644857

          So who’s taking your choices away?

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Let the masses stay dumb if that’s what they want

          “…I hate the attitude that everything has to be designed only to suit those who don’t want to put any effort into anything. … I would still like the option of something that can be set up into the system I want to have.”

          Neither you nor Dumphrey have offered a single reason why “dumbed down” distros keep you from using the distros you prefer. I know they don’t suit you, but EXACTLY how do they threaten your preferred way of computing?

        • #2644509

          Take Fedora 8 as compared to Red Hat 7,2

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to So who’s taking your choices away?

          Red Hat 7.2 was first Red Hat disto I installed and used. The first big difference was installer gave me more options, I could choose between basic install options, desktop, server, or custom, and each of these options allowed me to make more choices as regards to partitioning, package selection, I had extensive control over packages I wished to use . It took a while to go through all the options, especailly selecting the exact packages I desired and their dependencies, It required me to read and think as I sorted out my system, but there is nothing wrong with that, If I chose I could also just accept default desktop or server selections. I was given a choice. Fedora 8 does not give me as much package and set up flexability, but a trained monkey could install a system that would work, but a trained monkey probably could have installed Red Hat 7.2 but their was also plenty of scope to make it more like you wanted it. As I keep telling my sons and their freinds as regards to Linux if you are willing to learn you can use it for just about anything, the important part being the willingness to learn and think.

        • #2644203

          I think you may be

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to So who’s taking your choices away?

          Reading more into my comments.
          I do not feel my computing style is threatened, yet. What I do feel is annoyance towards the fact that much of the install ?select ability” and control is vanishing. And I also agree with Jaqui that many programs have some amazingly weird dependencies (see Gnome Games in many distros).
          My current favorite distro (and has been for a good while) is Debian. It has many more options during the install then other Distros (LVM, EFS, “decent” package selection, though I feel Fedora does better here at micro managing this). It?s stable, and has a large software base and an active community. Also, Beryl/AIGLX is not installed and enabled by default. This should be a choice, on any distro, as it is still very temperamental with hardware. Like I have said several times before, its not a threat yet, its just annoyance. Hence I use Debian, and one Ubuntu system (which were installed at 6.10 and has been “upgraded” through apt ever since. I do install and test other distros, and would be happy to give my “likes and dislike” of each if you so want.
          In another post you said that we can agree that any Linux is more secure then Windows (I?m paraphrasing here so I may have misquoted.) And I do agree with that statement. But, I fear a long, slow slide of Linux into “Vista-ization,” useless bloat, slow, sluggish, and buggy. On one level I know I am just responding in a negative way to the foreseen changes, but on another level, I see the development cycle of Linux changing. Lets look at it in a carrot and stick analogy. But instead of a stick to beat you with, it?s the stick that the carrot dangles from on a piece of string.
          Early on, Linux developed a strong, straight stick that could withstand the weight of monstrous carrots. The functionality and stability was deemed a priority. But at that time, Linux was using thin, anemic carrots (at least in comparison to the competition). MS on the other hand, found a stick that was “just good enough” to support a huge lab-grown carrot. This carrot was huge, shiny, and glowed with vitamin goodness. But it tasted like crap. MS’s security record speaks for its self. And they have always pushed features and form over functionality and stability (broad sweeping generalization).
          And over the years, MS has attempted to developed a stronger stick that could compete with the Linux stick, but did so by trying to “graft” other sticks to its existing stick, (building layers of code on top of an existing framework instead of building a new framework). Linux tried to develop and grow a better carrot that would attract more “donkeys” (well its traditional for the donkey to be after the carrot…).
          And now we are in a situation where many users just node and say “Computers!” and shake their heads when they have to reboot again and again… We live in a world of Low expectations. My opinion is that instead of catering to those opinions, we try to educate and change them, help people develop some awareness and ability with their computer.
          And as I did say in an earlier post, some dumbing down was necessary. But if it is necessary, its not really dumbing down.
          Dumbing down is taking a system that works just fine, and instead of adding features or improving functionality, the LIMIT choice to make the process simpler. Hence we have more limited package selection choices on installs, and the “fewest click” install race. (Which is silly, since all of them beat the Windows install hands down). Hence we have the lack of a “control” panel for the Gnome desktop behaviors (there is one but its fairly well hidden). Centralized system management and control panels? one area where Linux is not dumbing down but actually making improvements, Yast, Linux Mint has 2 nice ones, but then again, LibraNet had a nice (I really miss it) central control before they folded. Also, more and more distros are releasing ?Reviser? type programs for generating custom live CD?s. This appeals to me greatly, and is on the top of my ?to play with? list. I would be especially interested in creating custom live/install CDs.
          Jeebus I am rambling?
          Anyway? that?s my 2 cents.

        • #2644931

          I was wondering what cross-dressing had to do with it

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to You guys keep forgetting.


          That doesn’t make them mindless, just interested in things other than trannys, guns, produce, or computers.

          But then I remembered the bit about the manual drive and the older usage of the word.

          😀 made me laugh a little anyhow.

        • #2644919

          that really is a telling title you know..

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to I was wondering what cross-dressing had to do with it

          “I was wondering what cross-dressing had to do with it

          That doesn’t make them mindless, just interested in things other than trannys, guns, produce, or computers.

          But then I remembered the bit about the manual drive and the older usage of the word.

          😀 made me laugh a little anyhow.”

          says you spend way o much time on Church street @ Wellsley. [ I know I spelt that wrong been to long since I was in T.O. to remember ] ]:)

        • #2644885

          I have interesting friends

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to that really is a telling title you know..

          You nailed it though.. too much time in, near or passing through the Village when visiting friends or on my way too/from school while living downtown back in the University days.

          Glad someone got where that joke was coming from though..

          For the record; Wellesley. ;D

        • #2644486

          after being in TO for two years

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to I have interesting friends

          I couldn’t walk a block in the village in less than 30 minute, I knew/know to many people there.

          ~evil grin~ I’m the reason the leafs left the Maple Leaf Stadium. ]:)
          too often I verbally fried the leafs fanboys when they made fools of themselves in the middle of the village after a game.. comments like “Your horn blows, do you?” and having my voice echoing off the buildings.

        • #2644457

          ha.. I’d love to have seen that

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to after being in TO for two years

          A friend and I used to have coffee on the steps regularly. We both had the same taste in women which made for some great jokes until her X walked past with a new girl one day too soon after.

          The steps are gone now. The buildings where expanded to cover them and the street rats that took them over after the village folks left them where shoo’d away. It’s almost just another street now that most people have stopped getting all bent out of shape over other people’s preferences.

          Just an update encase you where missing The Eagle. 😉

        • #2644254

          the funny part of that

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to after being in TO for two years

          was the smug look on his face before I said it turning into terror.. then his buddies laughing at him and his almost rear-ending the car in front cause he couldn’t get away fast enough.

          the steps are gone? 🙁
          that’s no good. now someone would have to walk to and from the 519 for coffee from second cup. 🙁

          edit to add:

          naw, I’ve never been big on the bar scene.
          sounds like T.O. is going the same way Vancouver has been, destroy all the fun places and events.

        • #2645695

          I viewed it as acceptance

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to after being in TO for two years

          For years the “interesting” preference communites have been screaming for equal rights while being austrasized by the boring folks. One either went to 90% of the pubs in the city and “played straite” or went to the one or to villages.. now that every pub has a little rainbow friendly sticker in the window.. there’s much less reason for gay getto’s.

          That was my take on it anyhow. When general acceptance became the norm and all the pubs got there rainbows, you could see the decline in the wellesley area. It’s still the city capital (if you will) but it’s mostly outlived it’s reason for being other than the pubs in the area that can still make a go of it. I see the decline of the village as a symptom of social progress more than the loss of a neibourhood.

          The shops at the steps are still there, they just extended all the fronts out to the edge of the sidewalk so each renter engolved there own portion of “the steps”. It hadn’t been the regular coffee sitting place for a few years already though. I’ve been out of the area for a year or so now so it’s probaly change a whole bunch again since.

        • #2644860

          What the heck are you guys talking about???

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to that really is a telling title you know..

          Is this some Canadian in-joke?

        • #2644485

          not Canadian, global in joke.

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to What the heck are you guys talking about???

          Trannys is also the term often used to mean transsexuals / crossdressers / drag queens and drag kings. The term is used around the world by the Gay Les Bi Trans communities, and those who have been around them.

        • #2645683

          Ah. I’m from the South AND a race fan,

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to not Canadian, global in joke.

          so I’m only familiar with the automotive use of the term. We use a different word for the ‘alternative lifestyle’ crowd down here, but it would almost certainly get Beth down on me.

          ‘Odd’? ‘Peculiar’? No, those aren’t it. Hang on, I’ll remember it…

        • #2645618

          I was visiting a friends friend one time

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to not Canadian, global in joke.

          and he said ‘lets go to the TV bar. At the time (I was 17) not only under-age, but I had not frequented bars much. I thought it was a bar with a big screen tv. Lo and behold, it was not what I expected at all. Figured it out quickly enough, but, never re-visited (and spent some time outside waiting for his friend to come back out).

          His friend laughed all the way back, explaining how he ‘got us’. The funny thing, we had to wait for him for more than 30 min., as he stayed in there by himself….

        • #2645849

          Yeah

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to I was wondering what cross-dressing had to do with it

          it took me a second as well =) But I also linked it back to his comment about just wanting to surf porn.

        • #2644489

          Autocad Dumbing Down

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to You guys keep forgetting.

          “That doesn’t mean using AutoCAD is “dumbed down” from a drafting table, or that using it makes one “mindless”.

          Having gonefrom drafting board to Autocad to Solid Works there is definatly no requirement to “dumb down” they all have their place, their required skill sets, but most importantly the need to use you brain to get the best out of them all require you to think and use these tools corectly.

    • #2644910

      The one thing I would like to see dumbed down…

      by Anonymous ·

      In reply to Year of the Linux Distro

      is the dependency checks when upgrading apps.

      App X will not work without GCC 4.x.x but App Y will not work without GCC 2.x, GCC X will not install without uninstalling GCC Y. While simplified to the extreme, I think it gets the point across. Which app that you use do you want broken?

      • #2644887

        sounds like you’ve been using “rpm” on rpm based distros

        by neon samurai ·

        In reply to The one thing I would like to see dumbed down…

        Your grief reminds me far too much of a big reason I stopped using Red Hat back in the day. It was to the point where I’d download the .src.rpm and compile my own .rpm just to be sure I had all the dependencies in place and still it’d eventually end in the stalemate you describe.

        With Apt-Get and Urpmi I’ve never had that grief but oh do I remember the frustraiting of ye’ old “rpm –rebuild XYZ.src.rpm” and “rpm -i XYZ.rpm”

        • #2644508

          Apt-Get

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to sounds like you’ve been using “rpm” on rpm based distros

          When I used the Debian apt package manager after using the rpm and yum alternatives I don’ want to go back. Its fast and mean, If you know the package you want, very fast in a console. if you aqre not sure of rhe name of the package you are after brouse with the GUI usiny synaptic. Definatley the best.

        • #2644453

          I’m loving apt-get more and more every time I use it

          by neon samurai ·

          In reply to Apt-Get

          urpmi is rpm done right and it’s fantastic also. I haven’t found a real difference between apt-get and urpmi for what I’m doing other than the apt-get command to update the whole distribution rather than my usual clean install approach to new major Mandriva versions when updates for the previous version run out (I don’t usually touch the backports).

          With the N800, it’s a new brainer; “hm.. should I con through the system settings to the GUI package manager and update or should I just jump into it through my desktop and ssh then update the whole thing with a single command?”

          Through ssh, you’d never know you where on a machine smaller than a VCR tape and I always giggle when I’m in the basement updating the N800 while it’s elsewhere in the house.

        • #2645845

          Apt is an amzing system

          by dumphrey ·

          In reply to Apt-Get

          I basicly stick to Debian based systems for that very reason.
          On the RedHat front, yum is coming along nicely. If you install Yumex (yum extender) it becomes almost bearable. It adds basic functions that should be in yum already (ie remembering package headers in conjunction with a repository, though it does refreash this every time you open yumex.) On the down side, it has a very, very poor and confusing gui. In another year or two, yum may actually be a rival for apt.

      • #2644376

        You are partially correct.

        by Anonymous ·

        In reply to The one thing I would like to see dumbed down…

        I have installed rpm based distro’s such as OpenSuse, Redhat, and Cent OS. I also have two Debian distro’s installed – Debian and Knoppix. My, uhmmm, ‘tools’ are installed with Slackware, which is by far the biggest headache, but also the fastest.

    • #2644490

      Applications

      by j-mart ·

      In reply to Year of the Linux Distro

      With distro’s Linux has been steadily moving forward for many years now. In spite of one or two gripes we may have we would agree Linux is a fine OS, mature, versitle, relativly secure, and very stable, all the things we like to see in an OS, and what you want to get the job done. The main need I see is the applications to use, on top of this OS, the tools to get the work done. I work in engineering /manufacturing. It woud be great if serious CAD – CAM tools where available for the Linux platform. If Linux options were available, of the software needed to get the job done, running them would be a good option. CAD 3D engineering modeling tools have been a great asset to designing and building the mechanical equipment, the company I work for manufactures. A computer with a lot of grunt is a necessity for this type of work. Linux gets more out of your hardware and as I see it therefore gives more stability and performance, important conciderations in getting the job done on time. If I had the option of Linux versions of key software in use at work I would prefer to use those versions.

      • #2644439

        Bring on the apps…

        by dapowers ·

        In reply to Applications

        I agree that the biggest problem is the lack of “linux” apps that are installable by the average user. If my wife goes to the store and buys a digital camera she expects to bring it home install the software and use her camera. All the software that comes with the camera is “windows”. If I have Linux she can’t just drop a CD in and install the software. She doesn’t care about the PC she just wants to use the camera and edit the pics with the supplied software. It is the exact same attitude that the other 35 computer users in my extended family have.

        The distros are bloated (we all know it) for this exact reason. It just needs to work when the average person installs it. If there is an inroad to be made we have to work on the average user because they are the ones that drive the software development industry.

        I started with Linux around 1994 with slakware and have tried to move my main home PC to Linux ever since. Different distros and customizations. They all have their strengths but in the end there is always something that just makes me say it isn’t worth it yet. It just hasn’t been feasible with my family. My IPOD doesn’t work on Linux without a lot of trouble. Same with my IPAQ. Telling my wife she can’t run some software because linux is a better choice is not an option when she can’t do what she wants to. Until we can overcome that hurdle Linux is going to be for niche players like us. I use Linux servers everyday at work and they are fantastic for what I do with them. I am able to make them do what I want.

        I decided to reload one of my older systems with Ubuntu to see if it would be good for a home PC. So far I am just trying to see what can be used without any special customizations. The average user approach. It started bad when I couldn’t even get it to play a DVD after installing the software. I had to search forums for 20 minutes until I found a HOWTO. Then it was edit this and that. Burning DVD’s hasn’t been completely successful yet even after working on it for hours. The PC is only 3 years old and is plenty capable. It is just the fact that you have to customize all these obscure settings. I haven’t even made it to the Extra stuff yet because the basics are not working as expected. Granted this could be a hardware or other software problems. But, this could be anyones PC out there and word of mouth is strong. I love linux and I don’t recommend it for the home user that does anything more than surf the web.

        I spend all day dealing with real network and system problems and the last thing I want to do when I get home is try to figure out why I can’t burn a simple DVD. It is a waste of my time when the normal windows system just works. As techies we build apps for us to use and we set up the install to be finished by someone who knows as much as we do. The average user just wants it to work.

        As for security, users only care when the system doesn’t work. As long as they can do what they want security is something for the computer folks to worry about. If they have to turn on printing when they connect a printer then they are going to say “why isn’t it on by default, everyone has a printer”. Windows has norton firewall, mcaffee, blackice and on and on. Linux has IPTABLES and the everage user doesn’t have a clue about the underlying network aspect.

        Sorry if it sounds like a rant but we are definitely not the average user and they are the ones that drive desktop computing.

        My 2, ok, 4 cents worth….
        Bill

        • #2644432

          Indstrial stregth Apps

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Bring on the apps…

          Linux has a reasonable array of consumer type applications, media players, office suites etc. We need the Industrial Strength, money making, technical applications ported and written for this OS where the stability and power of Linux would make some of these applications even better than they are now. There may be a bit of the old “chicken or egg” mentality to be overcome for producers of these types of applications to make the commitment to Linux versions and they would have to spend some money to do this.

        • #2644411

          I agree……

          by dapowers ·

          In reply to Indstrial stregth Apps

          I just don’t think stability and power are enough to offset the costs that would be incurred by the IT department. Now they would have to support two Desktop OS’s and all the apps associated with each. We really haven’t shown a problem with windows so where is the ROI. In todays world first level windows admins are cheap and easy to find since most of the windows stuff is point and click. These are the folks that fix most of the desktop problems. Now add Linux, or any *NIX type OS at the desktop and the knowledge and expertise requirements go up significantly.

          “Chicken or the egg” is a great reference. I think there is a point on the horizon that will put Linux in the front seat with windows. Currently most of the company infrastructure for desktop client support is geared towards windows. Once the Linux community can get close or equalize this I think we will see a shift, for the corporate world anyway.

          Maybe we all need to pick a date!!! 🙂

          Bill

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