Questions

Ok, Explain this, if you can.

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Ok, Explain this, if you can.

Jaqui
What is it that M.S. Exchange offers that makes the COSTS worth it?
[ costs including the labour to babysit it as well as the licensing burden ]
I've never needed any functionality that wasn't provided by sendmail + mailman/sympa for the list type mailings.
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    santeewelding

    A while ago, idly hitting the down arrow, what should scurry up to the back edge of my keyboard, but a mouse. Put its front paws on the top edge, looked straight at me, wiggled its nose as if to say, "Got anything for me?", then scurried back under the desk.

    At this moment -- this very moment -- I have a trap set baited with Cheddar.

    Keep expecting it to go off and jump upside-down any moment.

    What was it that you were saying?

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    Not too crispy, with a bit of fat...not too much, so they can't pull it off.
    You know the old saying don't you...
    "The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!"

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    santeewelding

    Is shredded, sharp Cheddar.

    Just enough loose pieces to entice. The main body is jammed in tight.

    I have experience in these matters of Southern California mice. Includes primer-driven rubber slugs out the muzzle of a 45.

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    OH Smeg

    You have to put a Lighter under it to melt it in. Otherwise the Mice get to steal it from the trap without triggering it.

    Maybe your mice are not that cleaver but the ones here used to be till I Edumicated them differently.

    Col

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    santeewelding

    Hadn't thought of that. You are right. They are clever about picking it clean if you are not very, very studious about attaching the bait to the trap.

    And, more than once, have I found the first one expired and the bait gone ("Let Mikey try it first!")

    The 45 gets them every time, though, if you are willing to sit and wait. Oh, the stories about that.

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    Did you catch the mouse yet? Or has he proven to be a decendant of Okie mice that migrated to Ca during the Dust Bowl?
    OR...perhaps the little bugger is an undercover mouse working for the NSA/RIAA/MPAA/CIA/FBI or the VA! Hmmmm...why else would the mouse check your computer screen? IF you catch him, might want to dissect him and check for RFID implants, cameras etc.!
    Gotta go get my foil hat! <{;-)

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    santeewelding

    Dumpster, trap and all.

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    OH Smeg

    I have a friend with a 20 Gage and a Telescopic Sight who claims the same thing.

    Only thing is I believe that this would work better than a 45.

    Col

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    dealing with a "mob of mice" that are unruly and won't line up single file straight line!
    The cleanup might be worse???
    I've used a BB gun, even recently on a "furry tailed rat" as my wife calls them, that had managed to climb inside our chimney.
    "One shot, one kill...clean up the mess"

    ps...I should add that shot was performed while laying on my back, looking up through the chimney, with my left hand ( I'm a righty ).

    (edited to add ps)

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    NexS

    Support, global usage. Knowledge network...

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    but

    Jaqui

    support, global usage and a massive amount of documentation isn't enough.
    not when sendmail, and most other free mail servers have the same.

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    NexS

    How, in order for enterprise to see worth in something, you have to show them the bill.
    With money handed over the counter there is some real expectation for supplier support.

    It's not worth nothin' unless you pay for it... Or something like that...

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    robo_dev

    If your only requirements were email, then Sympa would be just great.

    For an enterprise, the ability to have an Active Directory integrated solution with somewhat sophisticated integrated calendar / meeting planner functionality is very much worth the money.

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    depending on the general setup and systems attached to the server. MS claims it has better integration with Windows desktops, and like NexS says support, knowledge base...
    Might also depend on the size of your operation as well. Sometimes MS offers discounts on Exchange, along with Windows, Office etc. when purchased as a package.

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    Jaqui

    that needs to be integrated with the desktop?
    it is an EMAIL server.

    and if you need to integrate your email SERVER with your DESKTOP os, then something is seriously wrong.

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    but some organizations see the sales pitch of "seemless" integration, need see no more.
    Another point often made is the growing use of mobile access, especially smartphones, tablets...Exchange, for whatever reason, seems to be high on the list of "wishes" for mobile access to email. Even the iWhatevers and Android tout Exchange compatibility.

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    tbmay

    My smart phone attaches to my IMAP server (Dovecot) just fine. That's not really a reason either.

    I use postfix + dovecot + a backend (usually).

    However, this is just a mail server. It's not a complete groupware solution with calendaring, etc.

    I'd say the real motivations for using Exchange are:

    a. It integrates with active directory.

    b. It's what the companies that use it are familiar with and it's FAR less disruptive just to update.

    Most people don't recognize how commoditized the groupware/communication market is, much to Microsoft's glee.

    Heck, my last employer used, and still uses, Groupwise. They still use Netware. Why? It's a lot of work with a lot of disruptions to change and neither management nor employees will understand why changing is the right thing to do. They just see it as I.T. playing/justifying their existence/doing unnecessary things that disrupt the organization.

    My guess is this why Exchange, like many Microsoft products, is used.

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    OH Smeg

    The Business sign a M$ Only Agreement to get cheaper Licensing.

    Or maybe that the Small Business Server used to come with Exchange free or at least as part of the Package so they thought they they where saving money by using it.

    I'm not really sure why M$ is the Dominate OS Builder either other than the blandly obvious that they Suckered IBM into supplying all of their PC's with M$ Software so people got the idea that to use a Personal Computer it had to be loaded with Microsoft Product.

    Personally I don't even understand why there are so many M$ Servers out there, they are not the best available, certainly not the cheapest and I can see no real reason for them to be in use.

    But maybe I'm missing something.

    Col

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    CG IT

    having a domain name and getting mail with your companies domain name as the address was the big thing. Up until 5 years ago, still was, but now with hosted services where you can still have your down domain name and still get mail addressed with it, being so cheap these days, along with the spam headache and costs to combat that, having your own mail server is just to costly.

    Now everyone is looking to dump their infrastructure as to costly to maintain. Especially with hardware and software lifecycles dropping to 2 or 3 years. No one can spend that kind of money all the time simply on IT.

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    Jaqui

    is the far lower cost for the open source / unix based email servers.

    even hosted exchange is far more expensive tan hosted unix email servers.

    oops, as low as $4.99 U.S./mo for UNLIMITED email addresses, with webserver and space, email list for the marketing department to use, full web presence setup.

    hosted exchange is costing a minimum of $50.00 US/mo last time I looked.

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    CG IT

    that open source was not able to do, was allow non programmer workers to administer microsoft products. If you can use a keyboard and mouse, with some training, anyone can administer and maintain microsoft servers. Created a large employable workforce just like the medical field. At first generalists rules microsoft networks, then came the specialists and with specialists, costs went through the roof. Now, everyone is dumping their high cost networks and their high cost specialists.

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    christianshiflet

    When we first implemented Exchange it was because our Marketing department said we needed it and without it the building would collapse around us and the business would fail and the owner agreed.

    But a few things come to mind. Firstly, with such a large install base supportability becomes a non-issue. If your Exchange admin falls in front of a bus just throw a stone towards a group of people. You are bound to hit another person with Exchange experience.

    Secondly, the (native) integration with mobile devices including contacts and calendars as well as policy enforcement can make life simpler.

    Also, as for the "baby-sitting" issue, I just don't get it. I regularly hear people discuss how unstable Exchange is or how much upkeep it requires. Maybe I am just really lucky, but with normal update and maintenance routines (similar to what any server would require) I have never really had to think about my Exchange implementation. Every failure I have seen was a direct result of something else such as hardware incompatibility or software conflicts. But that may just be my experience.

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    SmartAceW0LF

    Exchange was made to target the users of Groupwise and perhaps Lotus Notes. Given that objective, it would appear they have accomplished that if nothing else.

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    AV .

    It integrates seamlessly with many 3rd party apps as well as with other Microsoft apps.

    We use Exchange 2003 and we're going to migrate to 2010. Our contact database, document management system and every other application we have works with Exchange and Outlook.

    I remember the days in IT when integration between applications was very hard to achieve or could not be done, but Microsoft has eliminated that because it was a marketing dynamo.

    Third-party application support is very important if you have a sizable network. Yes, you have to pay, but if all of your applications play well together its worth every penny.

    AV

  • +
    0 Votes
    santeewelding

    A while ago, idly hitting the down arrow, what should scurry up to the back edge of my keyboard, but a mouse. Put its front paws on the top edge, looked straight at me, wiggled its nose as if to say, "Got anything for me?", then scurried back under the desk.

    At this moment -- this very moment -- I have a trap set baited with Cheddar.

    Keep expecting it to go off and jump upside-down any moment.

    What was it that you were saying?

    +
    0 Votes

    Not too crispy, with a bit of fat...not too much, so they can't pull it off.
    You know the old saying don't you...
    "The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!"

    +
    0 Votes
    santeewelding

    Is shredded, sharp Cheddar.

    Just enough loose pieces to entice. The main body is jammed in tight.

    I have experience in these matters of Southern California mice. Includes primer-driven rubber slugs out the muzzle of a 45.

    +
    0 Votes
    OH Smeg

    You have to put a Lighter under it to melt it in. Otherwise the Mice get to steal it from the trap without triggering it.

    Maybe your mice are not that cleaver but the ones here used to be till I Edumicated them differently.

    Col

    +
    0 Votes
    santeewelding

    Hadn't thought of that. You are right. They are clever about picking it clean if you are not very, very studious about attaching the bait to the trap.

    And, more than once, have I found the first one expired and the bait gone ("Let Mikey try it first!")

    The 45 gets them every time, though, if you are willing to sit and wait. Oh, the stories about that.

    +
    0 Votes

    Did you catch the mouse yet? Or has he proven to be a decendant of Okie mice that migrated to Ca during the Dust Bowl?
    OR...perhaps the little bugger is an undercover mouse working for the NSA/RIAA/MPAA/CIA/FBI or the VA! Hmmmm...why else would the mouse check your computer screen? IF you catch him, might want to dissect him and check for RFID implants, cameras etc.!
    Gotta go get my foil hat! <{;-)

    +
    0 Votes
    santeewelding

    Dumpster, trap and all.

    +
    0 Votes
    OH Smeg

    I have a friend with a 20 Gage and a Telescopic Sight who claims the same thing.

    Only thing is I believe that this would work better than a 45.

    Col

    +
    0 Votes

    dealing with a "mob of mice" that are unruly and won't line up single file straight line!
    The cleanup might be worse???
    I've used a BB gun, even recently on a "furry tailed rat" as my wife calls them, that had managed to climb inside our chimney.
    "One shot, one kill...clean up the mess"

    ps...I should add that shot was performed while laying on my back, looking up through the chimney, with my left hand ( I'm a righty ).

    (edited to add ps)

    +
    0 Votes
    NexS

    Support, global usage. Knowledge network...

    +
    0 Votes

    but

    Jaqui

    support, global usage and a massive amount of documentation isn't enough.
    not when sendmail, and most other free mail servers have the same.

    +
    0 Votes
    NexS

    How, in order for enterprise to see worth in something, you have to show them the bill.
    With money handed over the counter there is some real expectation for supplier support.

    It's not worth nothin' unless you pay for it... Or something like that...

    +
    0 Votes
    robo_dev

    If your only requirements were email, then Sympa would be just great.

    For an enterprise, the ability to have an Active Directory integrated solution with somewhat sophisticated integrated calendar / meeting planner functionality is very much worth the money.

    +
    0 Votes

    depending on the general setup and systems attached to the server. MS claims it has better integration with Windows desktops, and like NexS says support, knowledge base...
    Might also depend on the size of your operation as well. Sometimes MS offers discounts on Exchange, along with Windows, Office etc. when purchased as a package.

    +
    0 Votes
    Jaqui

    that needs to be integrated with the desktop?
    it is an EMAIL server.

    and if you need to integrate your email SERVER with your DESKTOP os, then something is seriously wrong.

    +
    0 Votes

    but some organizations see the sales pitch of "seemless" integration, need see no more.
    Another point often made is the growing use of mobile access, especially smartphones, tablets...Exchange, for whatever reason, seems to be high on the list of "wishes" for mobile access to email. Even the iWhatevers and Android tout Exchange compatibility.

    +
    0 Votes
    tbmay

    My smart phone attaches to my IMAP server (Dovecot) just fine. That's not really a reason either.

    I use postfix + dovecot + a backend (usually).

    However, this is just a mail server. It's not a complete groupware solution with calendaring, etc.

    I'd say the real motivations for using Exchange are:

    a. It integrates with active directory.

    b. It's what the companies that use it are familiar with and it's FAR less disruptive just to update.

    Most people don't recognize how commoditized the groupware/communication market is, much to Microsoft's glee.

    Heck, my last employer used, and still uses, Groupwise. They still use Netware. Why? It's a lot of work with a lot of disruptions to change and neither management nor employees will understand why changing is the right thing to do. They just see it as I.T. playing/justifying their existence/doing unnecessary things that disrupt the organization.

    My guess is this why Exchange, like many Microsoft products, is used.

    +
    0 Votes
    OH Smeg

    The Business sign a M$ Only Agreement to get cheaper Licensing.

    Or maybe that the Small Business Server used to come with Exchange free or at least as part of the Package so they thought they they where saving money by using it.

    I'm not really sure why M$ is the Dominate OS Builder either other than the blandly obvious that they Suckered IBM into supplying all of their PC's with M$ Software so people got the idea that to use a Personal Computer it had to be loaded with Microsoft Product.

    Personally I don't even understand why there are so many M$ Servers out there, they are not the best available, certainly not the cheapest and I can see no real reason for them to be in use.

    But maybe I'm missing something.

    Col

    +
    0 Votes
    CG IT

    having a domain name and getting mail with your companies domain name as the address was the big thing. Up until 5 years ago, still was, but now with hosted services where you can still have your down domain name and still get mail addressed with it, being so cheap these days, along with the spam headache and costs to combat that, having your own mail server is just to costly.

    Now everyone is looking to dump their infrastructure as to costly to maintain. Especially with hardware and software lifecycles dropping to 2 or 3 years. No one can spend that kind of money all the time simply on IT.

    +
    0 Votes
    Jaqui

    is the far lower cost for the open source / unix based email servers.

    even hosted exchange is far more expensive tan hosted unix email servers.

    oops, as low as $4.99 U.S./mo for UNLIMITED email addresses, with webserver and space, email list for the marketing department to use, full web presence setup.

    hosted exchange is costing a minimum of $50.00 US/mo last time I looked.

    +
    0 Votes
    CG IT

    that open source was not able to do, was allow non programmer workers to administer microsoft products. If you can use a keyboard and mouse, with some training, anyone can administer and maintain microsoft servers. Created a large employable workforce just like the medical field. At first generalists rules microsoft networks, then came the specialists and with specialists, costs went through the roof. Now, everyone is dumping their high cost networks and their high cost specialists.

    +
    0 Votes
    christianshiflet

    When we first implemented Exchange it was because our Marketing department said we needed it and without it the building would collapse around us and the business would fail and the owner agreed.

    But a few things come to mind. Firstly, with such a large install base supportability becomes a non-issue. If your Exchange admin falls in front of a bus just throw a stone towards a group of people. You are bound to hit another person with Exchange experience.

    Secondly, the (native) integration with mobile devices including contacts and calendars as well as policy enforcement can make life simpler.

    Also, as for the "baby-sitting" issue, I just don't get it. I regularly hear people discuss how unstable Exchange is or how much upkeep it requires. Maybe I am just really lucky, but with normal update and maintenance routines (similar to what any server would require) I have never really had to think about my Exchange implementation. Every failure I have seen was a direct result of something else such as hardware incompatibility or software conflicts. But that may just be my experience.

    +
    0 Votes
    SmartAceW0LF

    Exchange was made to target the users of Groupwise and perhaps Lotus Notes. Given that objective, it would appear they have accomplished that if nothing else.

    +
    0 Votes
    AV .

    It integrates seamlessly with many 3rd party apps as well as with other Microsoft apps.

    We use Exchange 2003 and we're going to migrate to 2010. Our contact database, document management system and every other application we have works with Exchange and Outlook.

    I remember the days in IT when integration between applications was very hard to achieve or could not be done, but Microsoft has eliminated that because it was a marketing dynamo.

    Third-party application support is very important if you have a sizable network. Yes, you have to pay, but if all of your applications play well together its worth every penny.

    AV