Questions

Paper certification

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Paper certification

robeal
The company I work for just hired a new 'guy' who added to his signature the MCSE logo. His MCSE certification is dated from 1998. Is this acceptable? I had an understanding that certifications expired within three years. Is this the case with the 'paper certifications' too?
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    w2ktechman

    All the certificate should do is to state that knowledge of the OS is there. I have several MCP's from NT4 to Win2k and I still list them on my resume.
    However, if the certs were from 1998, they are outdated and no longer does this person hold an MCP/MCSE status with MS, as they would be for win95, 98, or NT4.
    In this case, as he has had an MCSE, he should know about networks a bit. Does he have current field experience in a Win2k or newer network?
    If so, I would not worry about these certs being expired, but you might want to mention to him that he shouldnt use the MS logo anymore.

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    robeal

    I suspect he overstated his qualifications, he couldn't set up a simple VPN on a Windows XP computer... when asked for the IP address, he wrote the internal name of our mail server, without the domain attached. Is this normal for a professional networker to do?

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    robeal

    I know he does not have a formal education in IT; neither he has WAN experience. I was desperate for help and willing to train him, but he is too proud to admit he NEEDS training. What triggered my bitchiness is that he refuses to work as a team member, and now he's asked me to wash his cup. AARRRGGGGHHHH!

    Must control fist of death!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    w2ktechman

    Hemay have been a paper cert carrier before. I knew a few people that had full MCSE's (in Win NT4 and Win2k) that kept coming to me for common problems. Heck, 1 guy, the week after taking and passing his tests I quizzed him on a few basic things, and he could not answer them. He received the answers to the tests but did not do the studying (other than memorizing a bunch of answers).
    In this case, it sounds similar, and yes, for the next month or so you must control the fist of death!!!!!!!! Soon, very soon, your/his manager should determine that he has no real skills.
    And 1 reason that he probably does not want to work as a team member is because he knows that this will be evident even sooner, if he talks to every other tech. Maybe startup some tech conversations with him whila a manager is around???

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    marketingtutor.

    To me, many times, but not all, those guys with paper certs use it solely to get a job. Most of their skilled working knowledge comes from practical experience. The paper just helps confirm that. To me, it looks like this guy has the paper, but not the experience.

    When I was interviewd at my very first IT job back when I was 18 or 19, the supervisor that interviewed me, just during the interview even, said "I'm cancelling further interviews. I like you"

    There were BS in Computer Science holders, ITT Tech grads, and then me. I had no certification, no papers at that time, and yet they chose me. At the end of the interview, he said he chose me because I loved technology, and it was apparent. To me, it was just great moving from a cashier at a local grocery store to doing something I loved. Of course the 100% increase in pay didn't hurt either.

    The interviewer said that during all of the other interviews, these schooled types just came spitting out cliche garbage they learned in school, and were looking for a job to pay off their tuition loans, with zero work ethic. He said experience and enthusiasm we're the most important qualities he was looking for.

    While papers are a good indication of an area of emphasis and study, there is a very strong trend even now, in companies moving back towards experience counting a lot more. There are even some companies using dry-run MSCE and other practice tests as an applicant screening process.

    Its still important to hold a degree of some kind, since they want to see that you can commit to something like that, and finish it, but there is growing "paperless" talent pool out there that is more qualified than those holding papers, simply because they love working with computers and exploring every aspect of them.

    I have since gone on to get a Bachelors in Computer Science and Information Systems with a minor in business administration, and further to finish my MBA, but that was after acquiring the prerequisite love of technology.

    Wes

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    Tony Hopkinson

    and he's been workking in IT since then whether he's certified or not doesn't matter.
    Does he have the knowledge to do the job, or not, cert wouldn't prove that either way.

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    0 Votes
    robeal

    He actually wasn't working in IT and supposely wanted to get back to IT.... the problem I'm finding is that he is too pompous to admit he needs to understand our complex WAN infrastructure... and I keep fixing his mess ups..

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    robeal

    I'm just trying to make sure I'm not losing objectivity here, I'm very upset at him and I want to make sure my mind stays clear of personal opinions and stick to the facts when I bring these issues to my supervisor.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    what cert he has immaterial and when he got it is immaterial.
    What sort of mistakes is he making? Careless ones or ignorant ones.

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    0 Votes
    zlitocook

    Are out of date you should not use them. Because of the reason you give. A person can cause more problems then their worth; not knowing what, how or why something is done.
    Most companies here like Certs but real life experience counts for more then spending a ton of money for a cert that has no real training.
    You need more then a paper to be a good administrator or just a good tech.
    You can say you had these Certs or I know this O/S very well but if it will not apply to the job you are going for. Well you just make your self to be more then you are, and that will bite you latter!

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    Steven S. Warren

    I am pretty sure Microsoft changed the ruling to not expire MCSE. That being said, if you are a MCSE on Windows NT, then you will always have your MCSE on Windows NT, Windows 2000 etc.

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    w2ktechman

    My NT4 certs were expired. The technology has changed dramatically, and old certs hold old information, that is why they were expired.
    In NT4, WINS played a major role in networks, but in Win2k +, WINS is almost extinct. Just 1 example to throw out there

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    0 Votes
    Steven S. Warren

    Microsoft doesn't expire certifications, they just remove the tests for that specific certification. Although you can no longer become and MCSE on NT4, you can still call yourself and MCSE on the NT4 platform.

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    0 Votes
    SkatingZebra

    ...you go to college to get a diploma that will (hopefully) give you the basic knowledge you need to start out in a particular career. However, that piece of paper on your wall does NOT mean you are an expert. I am an Oracle Certified Database Administrator, but I needed at least three years in the field to really get an idea of what the heck I was doing. I've worked on SQL Server databases extensively (to the point of setting up clustered systems and writing custom replication systems) but I'm not an MCDBA. A cert plus real experience is a good mix. A cert alone isn't.

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    0 Votes
    jr_hearty

    Every network I've ever worked on employs a different mix of technology. There's always a learning curve.
    This sounds more like a personality issue. If you're not going to be able to work with him, it's better to get rid of him now. If you think there's potential, then you're going to have to level with the guy and tell him he needs to be open to constructive criticism and a little instruction. No one knows it all.

  • +
    0 Votes
    w2ktechman

    All the certificate should do is to state that knowledge of the OS is there. I have several MCP's from NT4 to Win2k and I still list them on my resume.
    However, if the certs were from 1998, they are outdated and no longer does this person hold an MCP/MCSE status with MS, as they would be for win95, 98, or NT4.
    In this case, as he has had an MCSE, he should know about networks a bit. Does he have current field experience in a Win2k or newer network?
    If so, I would not worry about these certs being expired, but you might want to mention to him that he shouldnt use the MS logo anymore.

    +
    0 Votes
    robeal

    I suspect he overstated his qualifications, he couldn't set up a simple VPN on a Windows XP computer... when asked for the IP address, he wrote the internal name of our mail server, without the domain attached. Is this normal for a professional networker to do?

    +
    0 Votes
    robeal

    I know he does not have a formal education in IT; neither he has WAN experience. I was desperate for help and willing to train him, but he is too proud to admit he NEEDS training. What triggered my bitchiness is that he refuses to work as a team member, and now he's asked me to wash his cup. AARRRGGGGHHHH!

    Must control fist of death!!!!!!!!!!!!

    +
    0 Votes
    w2ktechman

    Hemay have been a paper cert carrier before. I knew a few people that had full MCSE's (in Win NT4 and Win2k) that kept coming to me for common problems. Heck, 1 guy, the week after taking and passing his tests I quizzed him on a few basic things, and he could not answer them. He received the answers to the tests but did not do the studying (other than memorizing a bunch of answers).
    In this case, it sounds similar, and yes, for the next month or so you must control the fist of death!!!!!!!! Soon, very soon, your/his manager should determine that he has no real skills.
    And 1 reason that he probably does not want to work as a team member is because he knows that this will be evident even sooner, if he talks to every other tech. Maybe startup some tech conversations with him whila a manager is around???

    +
    0 Votes
    marketingtutor.

    To me, many times, but not all, those guys with paper certs use it solely to get a job. Most of their skilled working knowledge comes from practical experience. The paper just helps confirm that. To me, it looks like this guy has the paper, but not the experience.

    When I was interviewd at my very first IT job back when I was 18 or 19, the supervisor that interviewed me, just during the interview even, said "I'm cancelling further interviews. I like you"

    There were BS in Computer Science holders, ITT Tech grads, and then me. I had no certification, no papers at that time, and yet they chose me. At the end of the interview, he said he chose me because I loved technology, and it was apparent. To me, it was just great moving from a cashier at a local grocery store to doing something I loved. Of course the 100% increase in pay didn't hurt either.

    The interviewer said that during all of the other interviews, these schooled types just came spitting out cliche garbage they learned in school, and were looking for a job to pay off their tuition loans, with zero work ethic. He said experience and enthusiasm we're the most important qualities he was looking for.

    While papers are a good indication of an area of emphasis and study, there is a very strong trend even now, in companies moving back towards experience counting a lot more. There are even some companies using dry-run MSCE and other practice tests as an applicant screening process.

    Its still important to hold a degree of some kind, since they want to see that you can commit to something like that, and finish it, but there is growing "paperless" talent pool out there that is more qualified than those holding papers, simply because they love working with computers and exploring every aspect of them.

    I have since gone on to get a Bachelors in Computer Science and Information Systems with a minor in business administration, and further to finish my MBA, but that was after acquiring the prerequisite love of technology.

    Wes

    +
    0 Votes
    Tony Hopkinson

    and he's been workking in IT since then whether he's certified or not doesn't matter.
    Does he have the knowledge to do the job, or not, cert wouldn't prove that either way.

    +
    0 Votes
    robeal

    He actually wasn't working in IT and supposely wanted to get back to IT.... the problem I'm finding is that he is too pompous to admit he needs to understand our complex WAN infrastructure... and I keep fixing his mess ups..

    +
    0 Votes
    robeal

    I'm just trying to make sure I'm not losing objectivity here, I'm very upset at him and I want to make sure my mind stays clear of personal opinions and stick to the facts when I bring these issues to my supervisor.

    +
    0 Votes
    Tony Hopkinson

    what cert he has immaterial and when he got it is immaterial.
    What sort of mistakes is he making? Careless ones or ignorant ones.

    +
    0 Votes
    zlitocook

    Are out of date you should not use them. Because of the reason you give. A person can cause more problems then their worth; not knowing what, how or why something is done.
    Most companies here like Certs but real life experience counts for more then spending a ton of money for a cert that has no real training.
    You need more then a paper to be a good administrator or just a good tech.
    You can say you had these Certs or I know this O/S very well but if it will not apply to the job you are going for. Well you just make your self to be more then you are, and that will bite you latter!

    +
    0 Votes
    Steven S. Warren

    I am pretty sure Microsoft changed the ruling to not expire MCSE. That being said, if you are a MCSE on Windows NT, then you will always have your MCSE on Windows NT, Windows 2000 etc.

    +
    0 Votes
    w2ktechman

    My NT4 certs were expired. The technology has changed dramatically, and old certs hold old information, that is why they were expired.
    In NT4, WINS played a major role in networks, but in Win2k +, WINS is almost extinct. Just 1 example to throw out there

    +
    0 Votes
    Steven S. Warren

    Microsoft doesn't expire certifications, they just remove the tests for that specific certification. Although you can no longer become and MCSE on NT4, you can still call yourself and MCSE on the NT4 platform.

    +
    0 Votes
    SkatingZebra

    ...you go to college to get a diploma that will (hopefully) give you the basic knowledge you need to start out in a particular career. However, that piece of paper on your wall does NOT mean you are an expert. I am an Oracle Certified Database Administrator, but I needed at least three years in the field to really get an idea of what the heck I was doing. I've worked on SQL Server databases extensively (to the point of setting up clustered systems and writing custom replication systems) but I'm not an MCDBA. A cert plus real experience is a good mix. A cert alone isn't.

    +
    0 Votes
    jr_hearty

    Every network I've ever worked on employs a different mix of technology. There's always a learning curve.
    This sounds more like a personality issue. If you're not going to be able to work with him, it's better to get rid of him now. If you think there's potential, then you're going to have to level with the guy and tell him he needs to be open to constructive criticism and a little instruction. No one knows it all.