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Silly Question?

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Silly Question?

Anpadh
OK. Here we go. I am not a techie and never have been. I do enjoy working with computers and learning about them but I know zip about hardware -- and when I say zip, I am probably overstating my knowledge. I know a little bit about software but only a little more than the average non-techie, not nearly enough to be considered anything near being a software expert.

Now, here's the thing. I want to change my field. I am an English teacher. I want to switch over to the computer field. Money is the main reason. I won't deny that. But also, over the years, I have been failing to develop crucial educational tools simply because I don't understand computers. My research tells me that the future lies, not so much in a particular software, but in managing systems and networks. All software, ultimately, needs to work with the hardware, while the hardware can always adapt or ignore most types of software.

I have decided to work toward the CCIE certification. I know it takes a great deal of knowledge and several years of work. I know it is fairly expensive too. I know I need to get CCENT and CCNA certification and other certifications, en route to the CCIE. All of the comments I have read on this board state that it is damn near impossible to pass the CCNA test without actually working in the field before taking the test.

And that is what leads to my silly question: How do I get an IT job without any certification? It seems to be a Catch-22 situation. I need certification to get the job but I cannot possibly pass the certification test unless I already have a job.
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    OldER Mycroft

    If not, you should look him/her up on TR.

    He/She will be able to formulate a seemingly nonsensical reply that will strangely make sense to you.

    Of that I am certain.

    Personally, I always wanted to be an astronaut but for some reason NASA never seemed to be able to ignore my morbid fear of heights.

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    Anpadh

    I am glad I was to make you laugh. I suppose people who are doing well always have the time to laugh at those who are not.

    Perhaps it is as impossible for me to learn IT skills as it is for a person with a fear of heights to become an astronaut. I won't know until I try.

    And, in any case, I would not laugh at anyone who was simply doing his/her best to make a living rather than relying on charity.

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    OldER Mycroft

    And I most certainly was NOT laughing AT YOU, I was applying mirth to the predicament, not the person.

    Even miserable grumpy folk sometimes laugh when the opportunity presents itself - look at me!

    However, by your own pen, you write that you have zero knowledge yet wish to change career midway in order to become an expert in I.T. for the betterment of the content of your wallet. THAT formula in itself is comical, particularly when some IT staff are currently hanging onto there jobs by their fingernails.

    Tony Hopkinson's suggestion holds water in my book - check out the writing angle. Technical Authoring always needs good, creative linguists. :)

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    Anpadh

    Of course, when I call you a miserable, grumpy person, I am not laughing at you, only at your predicament. I suppose you have no choice but to laugh at others to make your miserable, grumpy life a little more cheery.

    A little bit of thought would have told you that if I did have experience in a field I would not, in fact, be CHANGING my career. Change implies difference. And while I do plan to work toward expertise in my new field of choice, I certainly do not assume that I am an expert already. But I also do not assume, as you do, that it is impossible for me to achieve expertise simply because I do not possess it already. In fact, I would think there would be no point in trying to acquire expertise in a field where I already had expertise.

    At one point, I had no experience of qualification in any field whatever. By your logic, therefore, I should have never tried to be successful in anything. However, I have been successful in more than one field already. That those fields no longer offer me a sufficient income is as much due to the changes in technology over the last 20 years as to the change in the economy over the last two years.

    Certainly, if you are able to survive with zero dollars in your own wallet, I encourage you to do so. That others (in IT or in any other profession) are barely hanging on to their jobs is no concern of mine. There are teachers who are barely hanging on to their jobs. So, I suppose you would discourage anyone from becoming a teacher. There are senior bankers who have recently been fired from their jobs. So, I guess nobody should go into banking. Senators have lost elections. So nobody should aspire to be a senator, I suppose.

    About the only profession I don't see anyone getting fired from (if you can call it a profession) is that of being a grumpy, miserable person. However, I would not recommend it to anyone, except you, to take that up as a profession, because you are the only person I know who recommends that a person should take up a profession only to have an empty wallet.

    Certainly, if that is your definition of success, you are sure to be very successful. You are already grumpy and miserable. As you have no value for money, emptying your wallet should be easy for you.

    As to Tony Hopkinson's suggestion, I value it too and I have responded to it, with respect. However, as you seem to value your own opinion above all else, you have not taken the time to read my response to Mr. Hopkins.

    By all means, continue to laugh at myself and others and our predicaments as it seems to be your main form of entertainment. Normally, I would feel sad for someone like you but, as it appears to be your definition of success, I congratulate you!

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    OldER Mycroft

    For the first time in almost 2 years, I've made a minimalist foray into the working possibilities for the life of another TR peer and inadvertently generated a furore of disgruntlement and malcontent. All of which appears to be aimed at me, firmly slung in my direction.

    Sheesh, all I did was to attempt to illustrate that you don't have to be successful in order to laugh at an ill-thought-out proposition.

    Sadly your elaborate rebuttal is as badly thought out as your misinterpreted malcontent.

    By all means, do it - go for it - switch lanes and blunder into an industry that you have to train in, just as the entire economy goes into hibernation.

    Had you proffered this ideal some years back, my response would have been much more approving. However, in the present economic climate and given your 20 year history in Education, your intended career-change is blinkered in the extreme.

    #1 Training courses are a necessity.
    #2 Graduates of those courses are currently experiencing placement difficulties.
    #3 The job market you are aiming at will become increasing populated with the unemployed that are already qualified and experienced.
    #4 You may well find your 'availability' for starter-positions ignored due to your age.
    #5 I didn't notice any mention made of you having taken any form of aptitude test.
    #6 You might have misjudged 20 years in Education as 'proof' that you are capable of working in an industrial field.

    But, really, you're probably right. What do I know anyway? I'm just a disgruntled grumpy old man.

    As I always say - better to be a has-been, than to be a never-was.

    Pardon me while I just go off and suck on my two hundred and sixty nine Thumbs ...

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    Snuffy09

    that last part was great :)

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    BubbaGlock

    You CAN pass the CCNA without working in the field, HOWEVER, pick a school with lots of hands on labs. No one was born with experience. I passed it first time and although I had lots of software and some hardware experience, I had never configured a router. If you have the desire and hunger to excel in the field, go for it. BUT don't go after it just for the money. That alone won't get you there. You have to enjoy the technology or don't go there.

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    Mehul Bhai

    Anpadh means "UNEDUCATED" in Hindi/Urdu.
    It seems that "Anpadh" is an either Indian or Pakistani Student In US of A.

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    LOL

    jdclyde

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    Snuffy09

    $MONEY$

    I believe that may become the "death of you" I cannot speak for the rest of the "IT veterans" on this site but im sure a lot will agree with me that you cannot be motivated longterm by the money.

    Don't believe the hype on the IT training commercials that you will make 80k+ as soon as your handed that piece of paper. Others have the piece of paper and experience. you may not start out at the top of the food chain like "they" promised you.

    This is where the passion for your trade ranks over desire for money

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    Anpadh

    I don't believe the hype. I do, however, believe the Bureau of Labor Statistics that says there will be an increase in demand for IT jobs over the next 10 years. Also, I am not looking for $80K. I am looking for $25K (hopefully) but would settle even for $15K, with CCNA certification. I would look for $60k after 5 to 7 years, with CCIE certification and $80K+ ten to fifteen years from now.

    I know there are ways I can use IT in education so, once I have sufficient income I will find a way to use my IT skills in education, particularly English education.

    In the short-term, I do need the money. In the long-term, I know there are ways I can utilize my combination of IT and education skills in ways that most people cannot imagine. I did not see the point of discussing this with some of the other IT professionals who responded here as they seem to believe that the ability to learn IT is a god-given skill available only to the CHOSEN FEW and that IT skills can be used only in the computer industry and nowhere else.

    I have always wanted to create the hardware and software necessary to teaching English skills to those who lack the money and/or time to go to school, buy books, etc. 20 years ago, when I looked into it, creating such an online program would have cost in excess of $100 million. Now, I believe, it can be done for under $1 million. In another 10 years, probably the cost will drop to $100,000 or less. And if I have some IT skills myself, the cost will drop even more.

    So, there is a long-term plan but it is quite far in the future.

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    SKDTech

    "hardware and software necessary to teaching English skills to those who lack the money and/or time to go to school, buy books, etc" then I would say that you are trying to plan along the wrong lines.

    I would say that programming/development would be the better route. The hardware is there, what is needed is the software. You seem to be missing the points that some here are trying to make and your immediate goal is not in line, in my mind, with your stated end goal.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    I suggest you revise math first.
    Because IT = Money is not an easy equation to balance.

    Even pre crisis you would be struggling, now...

    Given your back ground, I would have suggested Business Analyst (educational Software may be), or even better Technical Writer. Leverage what you have instead of starting from scratch. There could even be managment opportunities, we do tend to be bunch of kids at times.

    Don't believe this crap about shortage of skilled professionals, it's more a shortage of people who'll work for naff all an hour.

    HtHs

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    Anpadh

    Tony,

    Thanks for your suggestion! (Not being sarcastic -- I mean it). However, trust me when I say that I have looked into all aspects of writing, from teaching KG to journalism to medical transcription to speech-writing to technical writing and beyond. Nobody needs/wants writing skills. Those who do, such as TV sitcoms, etc. already have plenty of them. Even things to do with writing for the computer industry have no future, really. I don't mean only Technical Writing, but writing for blogs, online journals, etc. is simply not productive.

    About the only field that is hiring more people than it is firing is IT. Trust me, I am not looking to make $100K or even $50K per year. $25K per year, for the next year or two would do it for me. It would let me drive my car and buy my groceries. When I said money was the main reason for the switch I meant that in a very basic way -- ANY money, not a lot of money. Right now, I am making $70 per week -- $10 per day.

    I got laid off last month and paid this month's and last month's bills with the severance pay. But I can't make it on $10 per day. I can get a student loan and try to study toward something that would get me a job -- quick!

    I have a Master's degree in English and 20 years of college teaching experience and I cannot even get a job delivering pizza. I am "over-qualified" for that!

    So, I do appreciate what you are saying and I have tried it but there is no real future in being an educator. I want to do something hands-on. It's OK if it is hard to learn because that reduces the competition. The main thing is that it must have a future, however basic that may be.

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    Slayer_

    We have been growing faster than we thought we would, so we are hireing again. An analyst and a programmer spots are available. There is also a network specialist, and 2 sales spots available.

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    jdclyde

    ccna classes = one year
    ccnp classes = another year
    ccie better work in the field daily working on routers for a minimum of 5 years, studying the whole time.

    In about 7 years, IF you take the the very technical side of cisco routers and switches, you MIGHT be able to try to take the $2k test to become a CCIE.

    you to know cisco routers and switches are all command line, no gui, right?

    I have completed the ccnp training, and have just found myself laid off with 10 years on the job.

    To stand on a box and proclaim you wish to become ccie for the cash is laughable. You do it because you excel in the field, not because someone put dollar signs in your eyes.

    At your present pay rate, how to you propose to take all the classes?

    You also know you have to PAY to attempt the tests, right? pass or fail, one shot deal. don't pass, you pay and take it again. CCNP is four tests. Just the tests will cost you over a years wages.

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    Anpadh

    You mean people work for free and then pay for tests? WOW! What a concept! I just figured people got paid when they were employed and so they would have money to pay for tests. But I am sure you have a unique perspective being SO WISE!

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    jdclyde

    I was working as a programmer while I went to school for the networking. Got my BS in networking, and am now laid off.

    Some employers will pay for you to take the cert tests, but many won't.

    Sorry if reality is to bitter of a pill for you to swallow.

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    Anpadh

    I don't expect employers or anyone else to pay for what I want to do. I plan to earn and spend my own money on my own objectives.

    Sorry if that reality is too bitter for you to swallow. Apparently, you expect others to pay for your tests!

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    jdclyde

    pay for your tests on $70 a month.

    Is now the time that winged pigs fly our of your ***?

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    jdclyde

    Thanks for the peer message. That was the most I laughed in quite some time!

    "From: Anpadh
    Subject: Up YOUR ***!

    Message:
    I don't expect to be earning $70 per week the rest of my life. When I do get a job in the computer or other industry, I will earn more. So don't talk to me about wings growing out of my ***. You are the ***! And you have proved it since your response is pretty full of ****! In any case, how I pay for what I want, whether out of my earning, savings, borrowings, or other means is none of your damn business! So stay out of it!

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    You and IT ain't gonna get along. IT folks are under-appreciated, over-worked, and underpaid. If you can't take a little crap here, you don't get near what it takes to make it, much less thrive, in the IT world.

    Peer mail isn't for cussing other peers. Hate to see what you'd do with network access to a large group of users if you got po'd at them...

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    jdclyde

    if his mommy had told him "no" once in a while, maybe he wouldn't be taking this so hard? Clearly, there are more issues with this user than was reported.

    Does it surprise anyone here that he would not have thrived in a classroom?

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    Tony Hopkinson

    But we have two Technical Writers, to cover three product suites, very valuable and paid very well.

    You are talking four years or so of investment before you get a chance to climb on the bottom rung of the ladder. Which will basically be help desk, junior net admin as role barely exists if it ever did.

    You'll be competing with the experienced and trained, or trained and indentured (H1b).
    There is a drastic slowdown in IT investment, due to the current financial crisis. There is alot of talk about the cloud, which if it takes off will limit opportunities.

    Just to round it off Corporate IT despite protestations to the contrary is very ageist.

    On top of that I've never met anyone who went into IT for the money, who was any good as a tech. That's not a personal opinion, it's widely held.

    You could get the sort of money you are talking about on help desk/support, and your teaching/life experience could count for something there.

    Go look at the market, search the job boards, based on required skills, I afraid you have lost all contact with reality.

    It's a nice dream you have and if the tech does really interest you, then worth pursuing, I'm fairly sure you can't afford to do do in the current market though.

    Best of luck, you ae going to need it.

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    OldER Mycroft

    And those who can't teach, teach teachers to teach!

    Miserable Grumpy Old Mycroft's family demographic:
    Father - High School Principal of Music
    Mother - Primary School Headmistress
    Sister #1 - Technical College Lecturer
    Sister #2 - Primary School Teacher

    Miserable Grumpy Old Mycroft graduated and went into the Print Trade, then 17 years later after post grad, into the IT industry within the Print Trade.

    Yet, according to our enlightened Educationalist of 20 years standing, I apparently have zilch to contribute to his present 'clever' idea.

    Ah well, I'm clearly lacking in edumufication. :)

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    You

    Wizard-09

    Never fail to make me laugh Old Mycroft, i loved the "let me go and suck on my 200 odd thumbs" so good I nearly fall off my chair ha ha

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    Anpadh

    You know, I have always wondered how people in the IT field get on without a basic knowledge of English. Now, I know -- they don't. They simply stay in their cloistered little world and pay no attention to anyone or anything else.

    It seems none of you understood that I was asking for help. None of you have said anything that is remotely helpful (except for the one person who said I could have gotten a job at his company if I were located closer).

    Since almost nobody here can understand a request for help as anything but a joke, I am not going to bother replying to each one individually. Have a great life! I will get help from those who are capable of giving it.

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    We

    Wizard-09

    Don't use it, we use 0's and 1's who needs that in the world of I.T don't be silly

    Listen to what Old said, i found his information good and he is RIGHT, i am sorry to hear that you have to live on $10 a day but I.T takes years to master and i have been doing it 5 and still a long way to go you can't know everything.

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    Anpadh

    Actually, I don't remember claiming that I planned to learn EVERYTHING in IT -- just as much as anyone else who can pass the various IT tests. As to IT taking years to master, again, I never said that I planned to master it in a day. I may NEVER master it. But I do know that I will never know until I try.

    There are people who give up without trying. I am not one of them.

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    jdclyde

    In my last post, I have you a basic blueprint of the path you have stated you wanted, as one who has been going down that path.

    We didn't realize you didn't want REAL input, just a bunch of people telling you how smart you are for your decision.

    Grow up. Being a WATB is very unbecoming.

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    Anpadh

    I am not asking anyone's permission or approval. GROW UP!

    I will do as I please regardless whether anyone likes it or not. I don't need you to tell me how smart I am. I know how smart I am, already. And I have received no REAL input except to hear that you think I cannot do it, without knowing anything at all about me!

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    Wireeater

    You technically didn't really contribute much to be grateful for either. All you did was feed the fire. Why not walk away when you realized you weren't getting the answer you wanted to hear?

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    Anpadh

    I don't want/expect anyone to be grateful to me any more than they should expect me to be grateful to them for laughing at me.

    There was not (and is not) any particular answer that I "want to hear". I have received a few useful suggestions and I am making use of them.

    As for walking away, I would imagine that it is easier to say nothing if you feel it is not worth your time than to allow attacks to go undefended. If I am attacked, I will attack in return. Leave me alone and I will leave you alone. Help me and, if you ask for my help at some time, I will help you.

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    jpesadilla

    You are definitely using the Ignore Button.

    You are ignoring reality. Every person that responded to your request for help/info has done so with sincerity.

    You said it yourself in your first post. You have no IT skills to speak of. You are for all intents and purposes a user.

    Now, if you think that you actually have what it takes to enter into the world of IT Professionals then by all means give it a try.

    Your first step SHOULD be to get your A+ (220-601, 602, 603, 604) There are 4 exams the first should be easily passed by anyone who has been WORKING in the IT field for 6 months. You only need to take 1 of the 3 other exams to get your cert.

    I suggest (Sincerely) that you go to COMPtia.org website and investigate.

    Now that is my 2 centivos.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Take lots of classes, get all the paper, see you in four years.

    Tell me if you were on TeacherRepublic and someone posted.

    Silly Question.
    I'm tired of IT and I want to become an english teacher and earn real money, even though my only qualification is that I once read a book to my five year old nephew.

    What would your response be?

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    OldER Mycroft

    Let's see what response it may generate ...

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    Anpadh

    Go for it and to give it your best shot! If there is any way I can help you, let me know, because I have been in the field for many years and may be able to help you with your studies as well as with your choice of schools and the type of job you choose, after you are qualified.

    THAT would be my response!

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    Tony Hopkinson

    you have a lot more spare time than I.

    And you are a teacher.

    Course your comprehension skills are for sh*t,

    "and earn real money"

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    Tony Hopkinson

    though. People can learn from Questions you, see.

    I found this quite instructive.

    One of your fellow TechRepublic members has sent you a private message:

    From: Anpadh
    Subject: You aren't worht ****!
    Message:
    You and your comments are not worth ****. **** at least has the cpacity to detox the body and to grow stuff. You have neither. You are simply toxic and a dead-end. If you don't have time then don't answer. Nobody forced you to answer. Get your head out of your *** or shut up! If you do both, you will be showing your own lack of comprehension skills and worse. Continue to attack me and I will continue to attack you back.

    Your grammar is very poor, and the spelling, needs a bit of work.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    No wonder s/h/it thinks there's no future in Education. S/h/it has reading comprehension skills, not to mention attitude issues. Oh wait. I mentioned them once already.

    etu :0

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    OldER Mycroft

    As far as my knowledge of the teaching profession goes, it is usually rather difficult to lose your post, without doing something rather outlandish.

    It has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread (can't recall where offhand) but these outbursts are indicative of a person with serious antisocial problems, incapable of taking critiscism, having a violent temper.

    Just the sort to be fired from an educational role for the safety of all around him/her/it.

    Just a guess though - I'm uneducated after all!

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    jdclyde

    I got a peer from s/h/it was well.

    http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-10878-0.html?forumID=101&threadID=302912&messageID=3026959

    While I am not one to judge, s/h/it seems to have an amazying fasination with **** and asses. Add this strange fetish with a complete lack of writing skills, zero sense of humor, and zero ability to hear anything s/h/it doesn't WANT to hear, and we are dealing with one sick puppy here.

    I would also question anyone that KNOWS the value of **** to be able to make a meaningful comparison? :0

    Oh, and it was very nice of us to NOT add in the "hotmail.com" at the end of his name. After all, we wouldn't want his email address getting out there, huh?

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    < grumps and grouses about, clearly befuddled by a recent mind hack >

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    jdclyde

    everyone in education BUT you, my dear...

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    but just a cheap *** peck on the cheek.

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    jdclyde

    but it is "nicer" to use the word "butt kiss" instead of "*** peck", but you can kiss me there anytime you want! ]:)

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    OldER Mycroft

    As soon as I saw your Post, I thought to myself "Oh no. I've gone and done it now!!"

    Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

    I only used the analogy to bolster my own position of NOT having followed the inestimable depths to which my family's heritage extended into education, forever branding me as the Black Sheep.

    A Black Sheep with experience of career transition and IT nonetheless.

    Inadvertent collateral damage.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    Good thing you're my favorite old grump.

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    Anpadh

    Apparently your way is the only way and/or the bet way. Shows your level of education quite clearly!

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    rob mekel

    What previous posters are trying to say to you is: It's not easy to get into IT at the moment. That is ... not even to skilled IT-staf.

    They're not saying it's impossible but ... hard to do.

    As you say it's a catch-22 situation ... wel it's worse then that ... it a death-end-catch-22 situation.

    Maybe in a few years time it will be ok ... as if you're willing to wait an other 2 to 4 years ... meanwhile you can catch up on your lack of knowledge ... be our guesst.

    And as Old Mycroft said:
    "better to be a has-been, than to be a never-was"
    Meaning, as I see it, by all means do try to purchase your dreams ... go for it.


    edited for a cruelty on the underlining

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    jdclyde

    I gave him a very clear outline of what it would take to ATTEMPT going for the CCIE, but it didn't matter.

    There is a reason there are not a lot of CCIE's running around.

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    SKDTech

    You get an IT job the same way as you get any other. Look for entry level opportunities and submit your resume. Meanwhile, take classes and start studying for the certification exams. When you feel comfortable with the subject material go out and actually take the exams. If/when you should fail the exams go back to the books and study some more.

    Good luck and godspeed, if you truly have the inclination for IT you can go far. If not you will be miserable til you can change careers again.

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    Jacky Howe

    From what I see you are going for IT for the wrong reasons. Computer Systems have been around for a long time now and it seems funny to me that you just picked IT and not Accounting or Law for that matter.
    I started out labouring, building fences, digging ditches and moved on to plant and machinery. I have always been mechanically minded and restoring old vehicles took up a lot of time in my younger years. I found myself retrenched and was given a choice to do a course in electronic book-keeping.
    I suddenly found another interest and that was with Computers. I never was backward in coming forward when it came to stripping something down to see how it works and with some guidence from my father inlaw it was no time before I was repairing Systems. I never in my wildest dreams ever thought that I would be involved in IT.
    It actually started for me as a hobby and then it took over. Now I have a passion for what I do and achieve and all of it came about because I volunteered my services. I was offered a part time job which I gladly accepted and it went on from there.
    It's nice to earn money for what you do but if your heart isn't in it you won't get far. As for qualifications I have completed a couple of basic courses at the local TAFE so I'm basically self taught. I do a heck of a lot of reading and experimenting on test Systems. I try my best to keep up with the current trends. Whatever you decide to do it will be a hard slog with no real experience. Good luck.

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    jdclyde

    It would be like me saying I want to be a surgeon because I hear they make a lot of money....

    The wrong reason to pick a high end job.

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    OldER Mycroft

    They could spend their entire lives playing 'Doctors & Nurses'.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    the only reason I'd want to be a doctor. Or a nurse for that matter...
    :0

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    jdclyde

    to fill my fantasies of having the hot nurse, for a change.....

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    jdclyde

    we have VERY different ideas of what a hot nurse is. I like girls.... ;\

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    Slayer_

    You can also be on the administrative side. Knowing things like security, active directory w/e nix can use for the same function (Sorry to the Nix guys cause I do not know).

    And like I said before, analysts are in high demand, especially for reasons like us techie people don't know english from our aholes.

    I can personally say the most important people in are organization are the ones that can talk to the customers and actually figure out what they want, and tell us techie people what they want so we can figure out how to actually do it, and then actually do it :).

    There is a lot of different levels to IT, not just Cisco and certifications. (of which you will probably find out right now are worthless cause of the state of the economy)

    Web developer for example... You can learn the basics of web technology pretty easily, 1 or 2 courses and you'd probably learn all you'd need. Sure you'd probably get on that topic about garbage HTML, but at least you'd be employed.

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    Anpadh

    I never said, at any time, anywhere, that I am looking ONLY into the computer field. I just feel that it is stupid to post questions about being a copywriter in an ad agency, while posting on a board that is focused on IT careers. Even within IT, I am looking into hardware, software, sales, and other aspects.

    I don't need to learn web-design because I can work with someone who is an experienced web-designer herself. Similarly, I don't need to learn animation because I could easily put together a team of animators for a particular project. I want to learn something that nobody in my circle already knows.

    I am looking into various fields outside of education because, in my opinion, education is a dead end. Why would anyone spend 4 years to 8 years studying toward a degree or degrees for which they would pay as much as $250,000 in tuition and books alone, if they see that the people who are teaching them those skills are getting fired (and not getting hired elsewhere) every day?

    You don't need a degree in Computer Science to flip burgers at Burger King.You don't even need to be able to read, for something like that. And if you do read, and do have a degree in CS, chances are you will get low-paying CS jobs occasionally and you will be over-qualified for the flipping burger job. But I don't mind getting the low-paying CS job because it is better than having no job at all.

    The only way out that I can see (for myself, not the rest of the world) is to get a degree that is very hard to get, normally. When a degree is hard to get, it means demand for the degree exceeds supply. And that more or less guarantees a job.

    As to loving what I do, I worked at what I love, for 20 years. Now, there is no longer a market for that type of work. It does not pay the bills. If you were in my place, perhaps you would rather drop dead than pay your bills with a job you don't love. And that is your right. However, I would rather pay my bills than drop dead. And that is MY right!

    I am not the one being unrealistic here -- you are, if you feel that a person should ONLY make a living doing what he/she loves. If we lived in an ideal world, every student I ever taught would pay me $1 per year the rest of my life, and I would not need to worry about paying my bills after working for 20 years.

    However, just in case you have not noticed it, we don't live in an ideal world.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    nothing guarantees a job any more. That is what these people have been trying to tell you. A depression of global scale is upon us. Jobs are disappearing, not appearing. In every field.

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    OldER Mycroft

    Because you have an obvious, perhaps rather exaggerated capability to change standpoint in mid-sentence.

    I reckon you even actually believe the bullwhiff that you produce!

    If you look anything like Tricky Dicky Nixon, you got it made.

    Anpadhgate here we come! :^0

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    Anpadh

    While, in your opinion, which I don't value at all, I may have potential as a politician, I believe you have no potential at all to be anything other than the *** you have shown yourself to be!

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    OldER Mycroft

    Your overall view is blinkered, but the sentiment however ill-intentioned, has been well received in the spirit you did not intend.

    Mind you - the 'no potential' thing - it was my being listed as RETIRED that gave it away, wasn't it?

    If I were you I'd get down to the hardware shop tomorrow and negotiate a trade-in on that dinky little trowel you've got in your grubby mitts - you're gonna be needing a SHOVEL for the size of hole you are digging!!

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    jdclyde

    while many of us have been called an *** more than once, I never dreamed I would be in the presence of a "perfect" ***. To have refined your assdom to such an art form to obtain perfection is a rather amazing thing, and I am humbled to stand in your shadow.

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    JamesRL

    ....me I'd be going down to the strip club if I was looking for the perfect ***.

    But hey, to each his own. ...

    James

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    Anpadh

    And I don't want to be.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    At least the ol' grump has a sense of humor, and can laugh at himself.

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    Slayer_

    ...Without a manual or some trial and error. I may not know jack about hardware. But it would be easy to learn. So far what I have seen is the big high paid guys are getting laid off while at the same time companies are highering graduates at far lower wages. Of course this only happens for non union companies...


    ... I am sure glad the section of the company I work for is still profitable and growing, even if the mother company lost a couple billion cause they bought AIG like 5 months before the **** hit the fan.

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    rstan251

    Anpadh,

    I think you do!

    As a teacher you might have an advantage. Communiciation, both written and verbal, can be a challenge for technical people.

    If I were you, I would seek out a tech training firm. Offer to write or rewrite a training course. This might give you the entrance into the market that you need.

    Imagine working shoulder to shoulder with some great tech trainer and probably obtaining some in-depth technical knowledge otherwise unavailable.

    You might try offering to work for free in exchange for experience. I don't know too many techies that enjoy writing. You can be a real asset to a technical trainer who likes teaching but perhaps not the hard work of writing and planning.

    Best of luck,

    Robert,
    http://robertmstanley.com/bio
    http://twiiter.com/robertmstanley

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    jdclyde

    he has not displayed a lot of skill in the writing area.....

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    OldER Mycroft

    He can thank whichever God he believes in, that Aptitude Tests tend to come in multiple choice flavours.

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    Slayer_

    sqrt of 65000 * 350


    I was like wtf! Even with 4 possiblities I had no idea lol.

    So I am a math failure. And english, but I did the flowcharts and logic problems perfect. I ended up being the token whiteboy in my class.

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    OldER Mycroft

    "3 Seconds per Answer"

    Y'see, most folk think that means exactly that - 3 seconds for each question.

    But the LOGICAL folk (the computer geeks) understand that it's the rough estimate which is the product of the total number of questions, divided by the alloted time available.

    There'll be quite a few questions that you can answer on sight, from which you recover more and more seconds throughout the question paper. A question paper that is made from paper and answers that are put on that paper with a pen.

    So ~ with lots of seconds to spare ~

    Sqrt of 65000 * 350 becomes a simple long multiplication, like so:

    ......65000
    .......x350
    ......_____
    ..........0
    ....325000
    ...195000
    ...________
    ...22750000

    Now, anyone with a brain cell knows that 4^2=16 and 5^2=25, so the sqrt of 22750000 HAS to look something akin to 4.7 factored up. THAT would be what you'd find in one of the multiple choice answers.

    BUT ONLY if you left the SQRT Question till last !!

    THAT is LOGIC.

    XP's calculator delivers 4769.6960070847282457631079301161 as the answer.

    *There were probably quite a few that failed the test miserably because when they got to the SQRT problem, they immediately locked horns, using too much time to complete all the other simple questions. That was the ILLOGICAL approach. :)

    If you belong to the generation that sat these multiple choice exams on a computer screen, please ignore all of the above!! :^0

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    Slayer_

    I was done the test with 20 minutes to spare. The math stuff i did probably pretty bad on the second half of it, the first half, I could mental math it and figure out a close guess. And since its multiple choice, a close guess is often good enough to get you to the right answer. It never seemed to have any trick answers. The english part of it was crazy hard after like question 20/100. The other things came easy to me, not sure if to anyone else. In all honestly I think the test was a load of crap, since many of the people in my class were epic dumbasses, however our class was split in two. And apperently the half I was in was the smart half. People were actually requesting transfers into our half to be with the smart people. One of my friends from the other half said the other half would ridicule you if you asked questions. like wtf!? Questions are pretty much the only way for my fragmented mind to learn, that would have been terriable if that was the half I was on initially. I probably wouldn't have graduated. Especially not at the top of my class and with honors :). (it helped that the mr 4.5 GPA guy got a job earily and left college earily to finish it a year later, thus not being in my graduating year and making me the top :))

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    OldER Mycroft

    According to Charles Darwin:

    "If you give enough monkeys enough typewriters for enough time they will eventually come up with the complete works of Shakespeare."

    In other words: order can come from disorder given a large enough random data sample and a sufficient passage of time.

    So given enough opportunities to sit, then re-sit and re-sit and re-sit ad infinitum, any Numpty can pass a multiple choice exam eventually. There should be a law as to how many times Numpties are allowed to try it.

    I've never re-sat ANY exam, never had to. In fact, when I did my first HND re-sits were not an option (6 Finals at the end of 2nd year, 7 Finals at the end of 3rd year) and if I'd failed ANY exam, I failed my course. In those circumstances (17 started in 1st Year - 5 didn't make it to 3rd Year, 2 failed some Finals so only 10 Qualified) we really had an excuse to go to the Pub and get well and truly sozzled !!

    Not really much to celebrate if you pass on the Umpteenth Attempt.

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    jdclyde

    When I took my MACE cert tests, it was three tests. All open book, open notes. 70% still fail.

    I had to retake one of the three. Missed it by 3 points the first time. Was just as sweet a celebration. B-)

    My ex-coworker wrote the first test, crashed and burned, and she never attempted any of them after that.

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    Slayer_

    Cause it meant the test time was 4 times longer than it needed to be, and I'd be the only one to study it while everyone went off drinking. Then, well, 4 hour test, done in 20 minutes, perfect score, everyone else... didn't even finish or got stuck on stupid things.


    After a VB.net test someone actually asked me how to declare and show a new window. I'm sorry, you could guess and get it right faster than you could look it up in a book. Or use google since internet webpages were allowed lol. (They would check your history later to see if you did anything against the rules)

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    OldER Mycroft

    Ah well, back to the Land of Dreams, when men were men ...

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    jdclyde

    Yeah, if you have to do more than a few quick references, you were not going to finish in time.

    The nice thing about the MACE tests for SCO, you could skip a question and come back afterwards, unlike some that don't let you come back once you go to the next page. Answer all you KNEW, and THEN figure out the longer ones.

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    Slayer_

    Is the best way to do an exam, I always question those that did not do it that way.

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    Anpadh

    I appreciate the information. Looking into it.

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    daveo2000

    As has been said, plenty of times, it is a bad time to get into IT. Even if you study hard and learn everything, you will probably spend more money to catch up and get certified than you can afford to, then the "reward" at the end will be lower since we have so many really talented and out of work folks around now.

    A field that is really taking off right now is the field of Risk Analysis. Many years ago, lots of Humanities majors went into finance and did fairly well (for some reason that I cannot explain). Perhaps there is something in the process of a Humanities education that prepares one for aspects of financial services.

    Well, those financial services guys have screwed up big time and now are being required to evaluate and monitor risk of investments regularly and report on levels of risk openly.

    Think on that one. It might be a better choice.

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    OldER Mycroft

    I mean, financial risk analysis - wouldn't you have to be able to count big numbers without having to take off your shoes and socks???

    ****, Anpadh can't even SPEAK without both feet in his mouth! :^0

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    jdclyde

    that I am going to laugh....

    I lie, I am laughing....

    What a picture, feet in his mouth and winged pigs flying out his ***.... :0

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    zerosentiment

    since you have no IT skills, why not start with MCP? (microsoft certification).

    Think most IT guys haves a particular frame of mind that attracts to the job, my only fear for you is that you might not like IT and be unhappy in the long run.

    I think a MCP will get you a job, then you can see if you really do want to work for IT and continue with your education.

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    jdclyde

    everyone knows you go into IT for the big bucks, right?

    Well, that and the hot babes.... ;\

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    I don't know about either of those...

    :0

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    jdclyde

    yes, you do....

    ]:) ;\

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    Jack-M

    My name is Jack and I started work for what used to be "The Bell Telephone Company of America" in 1965. I started as a lineman, diggin' holes and cilbin' poles. For 2 years.
    The phone rang on my boss's desk and he got the message I was going to the ATT assesment center in NYC. My return was a cable splicer, the top paying craft.
    3 Years there and next facilities engineer.
    3 years there and then Right of Way Agent, buying land for poles, bldgs., etc. $5000
    check in my pocket, no questions asked by my boss if I didn't exceed my limit. Off to Project engineer. Fiber optic runs, pole lines, guys, pull, state regs.,etc. etc.
    If you think I have something to offer write jack.manger@gmail.com...........Good Luck

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    OldER Mycroft

    If not, you should look him/her up on TR.

    He/She will be able to formulate a seemingly nonsensical reply that will strangely make sense to you.

    Of that I am certain.

    Personally, I always wanted to be an astronaut but for some reason NASA never seemed to be able to ignore my morbid fear of heights.

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    Anpadh

    I am glad I was to make you laugh. I suppose people who are doing well always have the time to laugh at those who are not.

    Perhaps it is as impossible for me to learn IT skills as it is for a person with a fear of heights to become an astronaut. I won't know until I try.

    And, in any case, I would not laugh at anyone who was simply doing his/her best to make a living rather than relying on charity.

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    OldER Mycroft

    And I most certainly was NOT laughing AT YOU, I was applying mirth to the predicament, not the person.

    Even miserable grumpy folk sometimes laugh when the opportunity presents itself - look at me!

    However, by your own pen, you write that you have zero knowledge yet wish to change career midway in order to become an expert in I.T. for the betterment of the content of your wallet. THAT formula in itself is comical, particularly when some IT staff are currently hanging onto there jobs by their fingernails.

    Tony Hopkinson's suggestion holds water in my book - check out the writing angle. Technical Authoring always needs good, creative linguists. :)

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    Anpadh

    Of course, when I call you a miserable, grumpy person, I am not laughing at you, only at your predicament. I suppose you have no choice but to laugh at others to make your miserable, grumpy life a little more cheery.

    A little bit of thought would have told you that if I did have experience in a field I would not, in fact, be CHANGING my career. Change implies difference. And while I do plan to work toward expertise in my new field of choice, I certainly do not assume that I am an expert already. But I also do not assume, as you do, that it is impossible for me to achieve expertise simply because I do not possess it already. In fact, I would think there would be no point in trying to acquire expertise in a field where I already had expertise.

    At one point, I had no experience of qualification in any field whatever. By your logic, therefore, I should have never tried to be successful in anything. However, I have been successful in more than one field already. That those fields no longer offer me a sufficient income is as much due to the changes in technology over the last 20 years as to the change in the economy over the last two years.

    Certainly, if you are able to survive with zero dollars in your own wallet, I encourage you to do so. That others (in IT or in any other profession) are barely hanging on to their jobs is no concern of mine. There are teachers who are barely hanging on to their jobs. So, I suppose you would discourage anyone from becoming a teacher. There are senior bankers who have recently been fired from their jobs. So, I guess nobody should go into banking. Senators have lost elections. So nobody should aspire to be a senator, I suppose.

    About the only profession I don't see anyone getting fired from (if you can call it a profession) is that of being a grumpy, miserable person. However, I would not recommend it to anyone, except you, to take that up as a profession, because you are the only person I know who recommends that a person should take up a profession only to have an empty wallet.

    Certainly, if that is your definition of success, you are sure to be very successful. You are already grumpy and miserable. As you have no value for money, emptying your wallet should be easy for you.

    As to Tony Hopkinson's suggestion, I value it too and I have responded to it, with respect. However, as you seem to value your own opinion above all else, you have not taken the time to read my response to Mr. Hopkins.

    By all means, continue to laugh at myself and others and our predicaments as it seems to be your main form of entertainment. Normally, I would feel sad for someone like you but, as it appears to be your definition of success, I congratulate you!

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    OldER Mycroft

    For the first time in almost 2 years, I've made a minimalist foray into the working possibilities for the life of another TR peer and inadvertently generated a furore of disgruntlement and malcontent. All of which appears to be aimed at me, firmly slung in my direction.

    Sheesh, all I did was to attempt to illustrate that you don't have to be successful in order to laugh at an ill-thought-out proposition.

    Sadly your elaborate rebuttal is as badly thought out as your misinterpreted malcontent.

    By all means, do it - go for it - switch lanes and blunder into an industry that you have to train in, just as the entire economy goes into hibernation.

    Had you proffered this ideal some years back, my response would have been much more approving. However, in the present economic climate and given your 20 year history in Education, your intended career-change is blinkered in the extreme.

    #1 Training courses are a necessity.
    #2 Graduates of those courses are currently experiencing placement difficulties.
    #3 The job market you are aiming at will become increasing populated with the unemployed that are already qualified and experienced.
    #4 You may well find your 'availability' for starter-positions ignored due to your age.
    #5 I didn't notice any mention made of you having taken any form of aptitude test.
    #6 You might have misjudged 20 years in Education as 'proof' that you are capable of working in an industrial field.

    But, really, you're probably right. What do I know anyway? I'm just a disgruntled grumpy old man.

    As I always say - better to be a has-been, than to be a never-was.

    Pardon me while I just go off and suck on my two hundred and sixty nine Thumbs ...

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    Snuffy09

    that last part was great :)

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    BubbaGlock

    You CAN pass the CCNA without working in the field, HOWEVER, pick a school with lots of hands on labs. No one was born with experience. I passed it first time and although I had lots of software and some hardware experience, I had never configured a router. If you have the desire and hunger to excel in the field, go for it. BUT don't go after it just for the money. That alone won't get you there. You have to enjoy the technology or don't go there.

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    Mehul Bhai

    Anpadh means "UNEDUCATED" in Hindi/Urdu.
    It seems that "Anpadh" is an either Indian or Pakistani Student In US of A.

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    LOL

    jdclyde

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    Snuffy09

    $MONEY$

    I believe that may become the "death of you" I cannot speak for the rest of the "IT veterans" on this site but im sure a lot will agree with me that you cannot be motivated longterm by the money.

    Don't believe the hype on the IT training commercials that you will make 80k+ as soon as your handed that piece of paper. Others have the piece of paper and experience. you may not start out at the top of the food chain like "they" promised you.

    This is where the passion for your trade ranks over desire for money

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    Anpadh

    I don't believe the hype. I do, however, believe the Bureau of Labor Statistics that says there will be an increase in demand for IT jobs over the next 10 years. Also, I am not looking for $80K. I am looking for $25K (hopefully) but would settle even for $15K, with CCNA certification. I would look for $60k after 5 to 7 years, with CCIE certification and $80K+ ten to fifteen years from now.

    I know there are ways I can use IT in education so, once I have sufficient income I will find a way to use my IT skills in education, particularly English education.

    In the short-term, I do need the money. In the long-term, I know there are ways I can utilize my combination of IT and education skills in ways that most people cannot imagine. I did not see the point of discussing this with some of the other IT professionals who responded here as they seem to believe that the ability to learn IT is a god-given skill available only to the CHOSEN FEW and that IT skills can be used only in the computer industry and nowhere else.

    I have always wanted to create the hardware and software necessary to teaching English skills to those who lack the money and/or time to go to school, buy books, etc. 20 years ago, when I looked into it, creating such an online program would have cost in excess of $100 million. Now, I believe, it can be done for under $1 million. In another 10 years, probably the cost will drop to $100,000 or less. And if I have some IT skills myself, the cost will drop even more.

    So, there is a long-term plan but it is quite far in the future.

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    SKDTech

    "hardware and software necessary to teaching English skills to those who lack the money and/or time to go to school, buy books, etc" then I would say that you are trying to plan along the wrong lines.

    I would say that programming/development would be the better route. The hardware is there, what is needed is the software. You seem to be missing the points that some here are trying to make and your immediate goal is not in line, in my mind, with your stated end goal.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    I suggest you revise math first.
    Because IT = Money is not an easy equation to balance.

    Even pre crisis you would be struggling, now...

    Given your back ground, I would have suggested Business Analyst (educational Software may be), or even better Technical Writer. Leverage what you have instead of starting from scratch. There could even be managment opportunities, we do tend to be bunch of kids at times.

    Don't believe this crap about shortage of skilled professionals, it's more a shortage of people who'll work for naff all an hour.

    HtHs

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    Anpadh

    Tony,

    Thanks for your suggestion! (Not being sarcastic -- I mean it). However, trust me when I say that I have looked into all aspects of writing, from teaching KG to journalism to medical transcription to speech-writing to technical writing and beyond. Nobody needs/wants writing skills. Those who do, such as TV sitcoms, etc. already have plenty of them. Even things to do with writing for the computer industry have no future, really. I don't mean only Technical Writing, but writing for blogs, online journals, etc. is simply not productive.

    About the only field that is hiring more people than it is firing is IT. Trust me, I am not looking to make $100K or even $50K per year. $25K per year, for the next year or two would do it for me. It would let me drive my car and buy my groceries. When I said money was the main reason for the switch I meant that in a very basic way -- ANY money, not a lot of money. Right now, I am making $70 per week -- $10 per day.

    I got laid off last month and paid this month's and last month's bills with the severance pay. But I can't make it on $10 per day. I can get a student loan and try to study toward something that would get me a job -- quick!

    I have a Master's degree in English and 20 years of college teaching experience and I cannot even get a job delivering pizza. I am "over-qualified" for that!

    So, I do appreciate what you are saying and I have tried it but there is no real future in being an educator. I want to do something hands-on. It's OK if it is hard to learn because that reduces the competition. The main thing is that it must have a future, however basic that may be.

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    Slayer_

    We have been growing faster than we thought we would, so we are hireing again. An analyst and a programmer spots are available. There is also a network specialist, and 2 sales spots available.

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    jdclyde

    ccna classes = one year
    ccnp classes = another year
    ccie better work in the field daily working on routers for a minimum of 5 years, studying the whole time.

    In about 7 years, IF you take the the very technical side of cisco routers and switches, you MIGHT be able to try to take the $2k test to become a CCIE.

    you to know cisco routers and switches are all command line, no gui, right?

    I have completed the ccnp training, and have just found myself laid off with 10 years on the job.

    To stand on a box and proclaim you wish to become ccie for the cash is laughable. You do it because you excel in the field, not because someone put dollar signs in your eyes.

    At your present pay rate, how to you propose to take all the classes?

    You also know you have to PAY to attempt the tests, right? pass or fail, one shot deal. don't pass, you pay and take it again. CCNP is four tests. Just the tests will cost you over a years wages.

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    Anpadh

    You mean people work for free and then pay for tests? WOW! What a concept! I just figured people got paid when they were employed and so they would have money to pay for tests. But I am sure you have a unique perspective being SO WISE!

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    jdclyde

    I was working as a programmer while I went to school for the networking. Got my BS in networking, and am now laid off.

    Some employers will pay for you to take the cert tests, but many won't.

    Sorry if reality is to bitter of a pill for you to swallow.

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    Anpadh

    I don't expect employers or anyone else to pay for what I want to do. I plan to earn and spend my own money on my own objectives.

    Sorry if that reality is too bitter for you to swallow. Apparently, you expect others to pay for your tests!

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    jdclyde

    pay for your tests on $70 a month.

    Is now the time that winged pigs fly our of your ***?

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    jdclyde

    Thanks for the peer message. That was the most I laughed in quite some time!

    "From: Anpadh
    Subject: Up YOUR ***!

    Message:
    I don't expect to be earning $70 per week the rest of my life. When I do get a job in the computer or other industry, I will earn more. So don't talk to me about wings growing out of my ***. You are the ***! And you have proved it since your response is pretty full of ****! In any case, how I pay for what I want, whether out of my earning, savings, borrowings, or other means is none of your damn business! So stay out of it!

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    You and IT ain't gonna get along. IT folks are under-appreciated, over-worked, and underpaid. If you can't take a little crap here, you don't get near what it takes to make it, much less thrive, in the IT world.

    Peer mail isn't for cussing other peers. Hate to see what you'd do with network access to a large group of users if you got po'd at them...

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    jdclyde

    if his mommy had told him "no" once in a while, maybe he wouldn't be taking this so hard? Clearly, there are more issues with this user than was reported.

    Does it surprise anyone here that he would not have thrived in a classroom?

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    Tony Hopkinson

    But we have two Technical Writers, to cover three product suites, very valuable and paid very well.

    You are talking four years or so of investment before you get a chance to climb on the bottom rung of the ladder. Which will basically be help desk, junior net admin as role barely exists if it ever did.

    You'll be competing with the experienced and trained, or trained and indentured (H1b).
    There is a drastic slowdown in IT investment, due to the current financial crisis. There is alot of talk about the cloud, which if it takes off will limit opportunities.

    Just to round it off Corporate IT despite protestations to the contrary is very ageist.

    On top of that I've never met anyone who went into IT for the money, who was any good as a tech. That's not a personal opinion, it's widely held.

    You could get the sort of money you are talking about on help desk/support, and your teaching/life experience could count for something there.

    Go look at the market, search the job boards, based on required skills, I afraid you have lost all contact with reality.

    It's a nice dream you have and if the tech does really interest you, then worth pursuing, I'm fairly sure you can't afford to do do in the current market though.

    Best of luck, you ae going to need it.

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    OldER Mycroft

    And those who can't teach, teach teachers to teach!

    Miserable Grumpy Old Mycroft's family demographic:
    Father - High School Principal of Music
    Mother - Primary School Headmistress
    Sister #1 - Technical College Lecturer
    Sister #2 - Primary School Teacher

    Miserable Grumpy Old Mycroft graduated and went into the Print Trade, then 17 years later after post grad, into the IT industry within the Print Trade.

    Yet, according to our enlightened Educationalist of 20 years standing, I apparently have zilch to contribute to his present 'clever' idea.

    Ah well, I'm clearly lacking in edumufication. :)

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    You

    Wizard-09

    Never fail to make me laugh Old Mycroft, i loved the "let me go and suck on my 200 odd thumbs" so good I nearly fall off my chair ha ha

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    Anpadh

    You know, I have always wondered how people in the IT field get on without a basic knowledge of English. Now, I know -- they don't. They simply stay in their cloistered little world and pay no attention to anyone or anything else.

    It seems none of you understood that I was asking for help. None of you have said anything that is remotely helpful (except for the one person who said I could have gotten a job at his company if I were located closer).

    Since almost nobody here can understand a request for help as anything but a joke, I am not going to bother replying to each one individually. Have a great life! I will get help from those who are capable of giving it.

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    We

    Wizard-09

    Don't use it, we use 0's and 1's who needs that in the world of I.T don't be silly

    Listen to what Old said, i found his information good and he is RIGHT, i am sorry to hear that you have to live on $10 a day but I.T takes years to master and i have been doing it 5 and still a long way to go you can't know everything.

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    Anpadh

    Actually, I don't remember claiming that I planned to learn EVERYTHING in IT -- just as much as anyone else who can pass the various IT tests. As to IT taking years to master, again, I never said that I planned to master it in a day. I may NEVER master it. But I do know that I will never know until I try.

    There are people who give up without trying. I am not one of them.

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    jdclyde

    In my last post, I have you a basic blueprint of the path you have stated you wanted, as one who has been going down that path.

    We didn't realize you didn't want REAL input, just a bunch of people telling you how smart you are for your decision.

    Grow up. Being a WATB is very unbecoming.

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    Anpadh

    I am not asking anyone's permission or approval. GROW UP!

    I will do as I please regardless whether anyone likes it or not. I don't need you to tell me how smart I am. I know how smart I am, already. And I have received no REAL input except to hear that you think I cannot do it, without knowing anything at all about me!

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    Wireeater

    You technically didn't really contribute much to be grateful for either. All you did was feed the fire. Why not walk away when you realized you weren't getting the answer you wanted to hear?

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    Anpadh

    I don't want/expect anyone to be grateful to me any more than they should expect me to be grateful to them for laughing at me.

    There was not (and is not) any particular answer that I "want to hear". I have received a few useful suggestions and I am making use of them.

    As for walking away, I would imagine that it is easier to say nothing if you feel it is not worth your time than to allow attacks to go undefended. If I am attacked, I will attack in return. Leave me alone and I will leave you alone. Help me and, if you ask for my help at some time, I will help you.

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    jpesadilla

    You are definitely using the Ignore Button.

    You are ignoring reality. Every person that responded to your request for help/info has done so with sincerity.

    You said it yourself in your first post. You have no IT skills to speak of. You are for all intents and purposes a user.

    Now, if you think that you actually have what it takes to enter into the world of IT Professionals then by all means give it a try.

    Your first step SHOULD be to get your A+ (220-601, 602, 603, 604) There are 4 exams the first should be easily passed by anyone who has been WORKING in the IT field for 6 months. You only need to take 1 of the 3 other exams to get your cert.

    I suggest (Sincerely) that you go to COMPtia.org website and investigate.

    Now that is my 2 centivos.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Take lots of classes, get all the paper, see you in four years.

    Tell me if you were on TeacherRepublic and someone posted.

    Silly Question.
    I'm tired of IT and I want to become an english teacher and earn real money, even though my only qualification is that I once read a book to my five year old nephew.

    What would your response be?

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    OldER Mycroft

    Let's see what response it may generate ...

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    Anpadh

    Go for it and to give it your best shot! If there is any way I can help you, let me know, because I have been in the field for many years and may be able to help you with your studies as well as with your choice of schools and the type of job you choose, after you are qualified.

    THAT would be my response!

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    Tony Hopkinson

    you have a lot more spare time than I.

    And you are a teacher.

    Course your comprehension skills are for sh*t,

    "and earn real money"

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    Tony Hopkinson

    though. People can learn from Questions you, see.

    I found this quite instructive.

    One of your fellow TechRepublic members has sent you a private message:

    From: Anpadh
    Subject: You aren't worht ****!
    Message:
    You and your comments are not worth ****. **** at least has the cpacity to detox the body and to grow stuff. You have neither. You are simply toxic and a dead-end. If you don't have time then don't answer. Nobody forced you to answer. Get your head out of your *** or shut up! If you do both, you will be showing your own lack of comprehension skills and worse. Continue to attack me and I will continue to attack you back.

    Your grammar is very poor, and the spelling, needs a bit of work.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    No wonder s/h/it thinks there's no future in Education. S/h/it has reading comprehension skills, not to mention attitude issues. Oh wait. I mentioned them once already.

    etu :0

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    OldER Mycroft

    As far as my knowledge of the teaching profession goes, it is usually rather difficult to lose your post, without doing something rather outlandish.

    It has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread (can't recall where offhand) but these outbursts are indicative of a person with serious antisocial problems, incapable of taking critiscism, having a violent temper.

    Just the sort to be fired from an educational role for the safety of all around him/her/it.

    Just a guess though - I'm uneducated after all!

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    jdclyde

    I got a peer from s/h/it was well.

    http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-10878-0.html?forumID=101&threadID=302912&messageID=3026959

    While I am not one to judge, s/h/it seems to have an amazying fasination with **** and asses. Add this strange fetish with a complete lack of writing skills, zero sense of humor, and zero ability to hear anything s/h/it doesn't WANT to hear, and we are dealing with one sick puppy here.

    I would also question anyone that KNOWS the value of **** to be able to make a meaningful comparison? :0

    Oh, and it was very nice of us to NOT add in the "hotmail.com" at the end of his name. After all, we wouldn't want his email address getting out there, huh?

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    < grumps and grouses about, clearly befuddled by a recent mind hack >

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    jdclyde

    everyone in education BUT you, my dear...

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    but just a cheap *** peck on the cheek.

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    jdclyde

    but it is "nicer" to use the word "butt kiss" instead of "*** peck", but you can kiss me there anytime you want! ]:)

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    OldER Mycroft

    As soon as I saw your Post, I thought to myself "Oh no. I've gone and done it now!!"

    Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

    I only used the analogy to bolster my own position of NOT having followed the inestimable depths to which my family's heritage extended into education, forever branding me as the Black Sheep.

    A Black Sheep with experience of career transition and IT nonetheless.

    Inadvertent collateral damage.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    Good thing you're my favorite old grump.

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    Anpadh

    Apparently your way is the only way and/or the bet way. Shows your level of education quite clearly!

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    rob mekel

    What previous posters are trying to say to you is: It's not easy to get into IT at the moment. That is ... not even to skilled IT-staf.

    They're not saying it's impossible but ... hard to do.

    As you say it's a catch-22 situation ... wel it's worse then that ... it a death-end-catch-22 situation.

    Maybe in a few years time it will be ok ... as if you're willing to wait an other 2 to 4 years ... meanwhile you can catch up on your lack of knowledge ... be our guesst.

    And as Old Mycroft said:
    "better to be a has-been, than to be a never-was"
    Meaning, as I see it, by all means do try to purchase your dreams ... go for it.


    edited for a cruelty on the underlining

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    jdclyde

    I gave him a very clear outline of what it would take to ATTEMPT going for the CCIE, but it didn't matter.

    There is a reason there are not a lot of CCIE's running around.

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    SKDTech

    You get an IT job the same way as you get any other. Look for entry level opportunities and submit your resume. Meanwhile, take classes and start studying for the certification exams. When you feel comfortable with the subject material go out and actually take the exams. If/when you should fail the exams go back to the books and study some more.

    Good luck and godspeed, if you truly have the inclination for IT you can go far. If not you will be miserable til you can change careers again.

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    Jacky Howe

    From what I see you are going for IT for the wrong reasons. Computer Systems have been around for a long time now and it seems funny to me that you just picked IT and not Accounting or Law for that matter.
    I started out labouring, building fences, digging ditches and moved on to plant and machinery. I have always been mechanically minded and restoring old vehicles took up a lot of time in my younger years. I found myself retrenched and was given a choice to do a course in electronic book-keeping.
    I suddenly found another interest and that was with Computers. I never was backward in coming forward when it came to stripping something down to see how it works and with some guidence from my father inlaw it was no time before I was repairing Systems. I never in my wildest dreams ever thought that I would be involved in IT.
    It actually started for me as a hobby and then it took over. Now I have a passion for what I do and achieve and all of it came about because I volunteered my services. I was offered a part time job which I gladly accepted and it went on from there.
    It's nice to earn money for what you do but if your heart isn't in it you won't get far. As for qualifications I have completed a couple of basic courses at the local TAFE so I'm basically self taught. I do a heck of a lot of reading and experimenting on test Systems. I try my best to keep up with the current trends. Whatever you decide to do it will be a hard slog with no real experience. Good luck.

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    jdclyde

    It would be like me saying I want to be a surgeon because I hear they make a lot of money....

    The wrong reason to pick a high end job.

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    OldER Mycroft

    They could spend their entire lives playing 'Doctors & Nurses'.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    the only reason I'd want to be a doctor. Or a nurse for that matter...
    :0

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    jdclyde

    to fill my fantasies of having the hot nurse, for a change.....

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    jdclyde

    we have VERY different ideas of what a hot nurse is. I like girls.... ;\

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    Slayer_

    You can also be on the administrative side. Knowing things like security, active directory w/e nix can use for the same function (Sorry to the Nix guys cause I do not know).

    And like I said before, analysts are in high demand, especially for reasons like us techie people don't know english from our aholes.

    I can personally say the most important people in are organization are the ones that can talk to the customers and actually figure out what they want, and tell us techie people what they want so we can figure out how to actually do it, and then actually do it :).

    There is a lot of different levels to IT, not just Cisco and certifications. (of which you will probably find out right now are worthless cause of the state of the economy)

    Web developer for example... You can learn the basics of web technology pretty easily, 1 or 2 courses and you'd probably learn all you'd need. Sure you'd probably get on that topic about garbage HTML, but at least you'd be employed.

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    Anpadh

    I never said, at any time, anywhere, that I am looking ONLY into the computer field. I just feel that it is stupid to post questions about being a copywriter in an ad agency, while posting on a board that is focused on IT careers. Even within IT, I am looking into hardware, software, sales, and other aspects.

    I don't need to learn web-design because I can work with someone who is an experienced web-designer herself. Similarly, I don't need to learn animation because I could easily put together a team of animators for a particular project. I want to learn something that nobody in my circle already knows.

    I am looking into various fields outside of education because, in my opinion, education is a dead end. Why would anyone spend 4 years to 8 years studying toward a degree or degrees for which they would pay as much as $250,000 in tuition and books alone, if they see that the people who are teaching them those skills are getting fired (and not getting hired elsewhere) every day?

    You don't need a degree in Computer Science to flip burgers at Burger King.You don't even need to be able to read, for something like that. And if you do read, and do have a degree in CS, chances are you will get low-paying CS jobs occasionally and you will be over-qualified for the flipping burger job. But I don't mind getting the low-paying CS job because it is better than having no job at all.

    The only way out that I can see (for myself, not the rest of the world) is to get a degree that is very hard to get, normally. When a degree is hard to get, it means demand for the degree exceeds supply. And that more or less guarantees a job.

    As to loving what I do, I worked at what I love, for 20 years. Now, there is no longer a market for that type of work. It does not pay the bills. If you were in my place, perhaps you would rather drop dead than pay your bills with a job you don't love. And that is your right. However, I would rather pay my bills than drop dead. And that is MY right!

    I am not the one being unrealistic here -- you are, if you feel that a person should ONLY make a living doing what he/she loves. If we lived in an ideal world, every student I ever taught would pay me $1 per year the rest of my life, and I would not need to worry about paying my bills after working for 20 years.

    However, just in case you have not noticed it, we don't live in an ideal world.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    nothing guarantees a job any more. That is what these people have been trying to tell you. A depression of global scale is upon us. Jobs are disappearing, not appearing. In every field.

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    OldER Mycroft

    Because you have an obvious, perhaps rather exaggerated capability to change standpoint in mid-sentence.

    I reckon you even actually believe the bullwhiff that you produce!

    If you look anything like Tricky Dicky Nixon, you got it made.

    Anpadhgate here we come! :^0

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    Anpadh

    While, in your opinion, which I don't value at all, I may have potential as a politician, I believe you have no potential at all to be anything other than the *** you have shown yourself to be!

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    OldER Mycroft

    Your overall view is blinkered, but the sentiment however ill-intentioned, has been well received in the spirit you did not intend.

    Mind you - the 'no potential' thing - it was my being listed as RETIRED that gave it away, wasn't it?

    If I were you I'd get down to the hardware shop tomorrow and negotiate a trade-in on that dinky little trowel you've got in your grubby mitts - you're gonna be needing a SHOVEL for the size of hole you are digging!!

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    jdclyde

    while many of us have been called an *** more than once, I never dreamed I would be in the presence of a "perfect" ***. To have refined your assdom to such an art form to obtain perfection is a rather amazing thing, and I am humbled to stand in your shadow.

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    JamesRL

    ....me I'd be going down to the strip club if I was looking for the perfect ***.

    But hey, to each his own. ...

    James

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    Anpadh

    And I don't want to be.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    At least the ol' grump has a sense of humor, and can laugh at himself.

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    Slayer_

    ...Without a manual or some trial and error. I may not know jack about hardware. But it would be easy to learn. So far what I have seen is the big high paid guys are getting laid off while at the same time companies are highering graduates at far lower wages. Of course this only happens for non union companies...


    ... I am sure glad the section of the company I work for is still profitable and growing, even if the mother company lost a couple billion cause they bought AIG like 5 months before the **** hit the fan.

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    rstan251

    Anpadh,

    I think you do!

    As a teacher you might have an advantage. Communiciation, both written and verbal, can be a challenge for technical people.

    If I were you, I would seek out a tech training firm. Offer to write or rewrite a training course. This might give you the entrance into the market that you need.

    Imagine working shoulder to shoulder with some great tech trainer and probably obtaining some in-depth technical knowledge otherwise unavailable.

    You might try offering to work for free in exchange for experience. I don't know too many techies that enjoy writing. You can be a real asset to a technical trainer who likes teaching but perhaps not the hard work of writing and planning.

    Best of luck,

    Robert,
    http://robertmstanley.com/bio
    http://twiiter.com/robertmstanley

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    jdclyde

    he has not displayed a lot of skill in the writing area.....

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    OldER Mycroft

    He can thank whichever God he believes in, that Aptitude Tests tend to come in multiple choice flavours.

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    Slayer_

    sqrt of 65000 * 350


    I was like wtf! Even with 4 possiblities I had no idea lol.

    So I am a math failure. And english, but I did the flowcharts and logic problems perfect. I ended up being the token whiteboy in my class.

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    OldER Mycroft

    "3 Seconds per Answer"

    Y'see, most folk think that means exactly that - 3 seconds for each question.

    But the LOGICAL folk (the computer geeks) understand that it's the rough estimate which is the product of the total number of questions, divided by the alloted time available.

    There'll be quite a few questions that you can answer on sight, from which you recover more and more seconds throughout the question paper. A question paper that is made from paper and answers that are put on that paper with a pen.

    So ~ with lots of seconds to spare ~

    Sqrt of 65000 * 350 becomes a simple long multiplication, like so:

    ......65000
    .......x350
    ......_____
    ..........0
    ....325000
    ...195000
    ...________
    ...22750000

    Now, anyone with a brain cell knows that 4^2=16 and 5^2=25, so the sqrt of 22750000 HAS to look something akin to 4.7 factored up. THAT would be what you'd find in one of the multiple choice answers.

    BUT ONLY if you left the SQRT Question till last !!

    THAT is LOGIC.

    XP's calculator delivers 4769.6960070847282457631079301161 as the answer.

    *There were probably quite a few that failed the test miserably because when they got to the SQRT problem, they immediately locked horns, using too much time to complete all the other simple questions. That was the ILLOGICAL approach. :)

    If you belong to the generation that sat these multiple choice exams on a computer screen, please ignore all of the above!! :^0

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    Slayer_

    I was done the test with 20 minutes to spare. The math stuff i did probably pretty bad on the second half of it, the first half, I could mental math it and figure out a close guess. And since its multiple choice, a close guess is often good enough to get you to the right answer. It never seemed to have any trick answers. The english part of it was crazy hard after like question 20/100. The other things came easy to me, not sure if to anyone else. In all honestly I think the test was a load of crap, since many of the people in my class were epic dumbasses, however our class was split in two. And apperently the half I was in was the smart half. People were actually requesting transfers into our half to be with the smart people. One of my friends from the other half said the other half would ridicule you if you asked questions. like wtf!? Questions are pretty much the only way for my fragmented mind to learn, that would have been terriable if that was the half I was on initially. I probably wouldn't have graduated. Especially not at the top of my class and with honors :). (it helped that the mr 4.5 GPA guy got a job earily and left college earily to finish it a year later, thus not being in my graduating year and making me the top :))

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    OldER Mycroft

    According to Charles Darwin:

    "If you give enough monkeys enough typewriters for enough time they will eventually come up with the complete works of Shakespeare."

    In other words: order can come from disorder given a large enough random data sample and a sufficient passage of time.

    So given enough opportunities to sit, then re-sit and re-sit and re-sit ad infinitum, any Numpty can pass a multiple choice exam eventually. There should be a law as to how many times Numpties are allowed to try it.

    I've never re-sat ANY exam, never had to. In fact, when I did my first HND re-sits were not an option (6 Finals at the end of 2nd year, 7 Finals at the end of 3rd year) and if I'd failed ANY exam, I failed my course. In those circumstances (17 started in 1st Year - 5 didn't make it to 3rd Year, 2 failed some Finals so only 10 Qualified) we really had an excuse to go to the Pub and get well and truly sozzled !!

    Not really much to celebrate if you pass on the Umpteenth Attempt.

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    jdclyde

    When I took my MACE cert tests, it was three tests. All open book, open notes. 70% still fail.

    I had to retake one of the three. Missed it by 3 points the first time. Was just as sweet a celebration. B-)

    My ex-coworker wrote the first test, crashed and burned, and she never attempted any of them after that.

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    Slayer_

    Cause it meant the test time was 4 times longer than it needed to be, and I'd be the only one to study it while everyone went off drinking. Then, well, 4 hour test, done in 20 minutes, perfect score, everyone else... didn't even finish or got stuck on stupid things.


    After a VB.net test someone actually asked me how to declare and show a new window. I'm sorry, you could guess and get it right faster than you could look it up in a book. Or use google since internet webpages were allowed lol. (They would check your history later to see if you did anything against the rules)

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    OldER Mycroft

    Ah well, back to the Land of Dreams, when men were men ...

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    jdclyde

    Yeah, if you have to do more than a few quick references, you were not going to finish in time.

    The nice thing about the MACE tests for SCO, you could skip a question and come back afterwards, unlike some that don't let you come back once you go to the next page. Answer all you KNEW, and THEN figure out the longer ones.

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    Slayer_

    Is the best way to do an exam, I always question those that did not do it that way.

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    Anpadh

    I appreciate the information. Looking into it.

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    daveo2000

    As has been said, plenty of times, it is a bad time to get into IT. Even if you study hard and learn everything, you will probably spend more money to catch up and get certified than you can afford to, then the "reward" at the end will be lower since we have so many really talented and out of work folks around now.

    A field that is really taking off right now is the field of Risk Analysis. Many years ago, lots of Humanities majors went into finance and did fairly well (for some reason that I cannot explain). Perhaps there is something in the process of a Humanities education that prepares one for aspects of financial services.

    Well, those financial services guys have screwed up big time and now are being required to evaluate and monitor risk of investments regularly and report on levels of risk openly.

    Think on that one. It might be a better choice.

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    OldER Mycroft

    I mean, financial risk analysis - wouldn't you have to be able to count big numbers without having to take off your shoes and socks???

    ****, Anpadh can't even SPEAK without both feet in his mouth! :^0

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    jdclyde

    that I am going to laugh....

    I lie, I am laughing....

    What a picture, feet in his mouth and winged pigs flying out his ***.... :0

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    zerosentiment

    since you have no IT skills, why not start with MCP? (microsoft certification).

    Think most IT guys haves a particular frame of mind that attracts to the job, my only fear for you is that you might not like IT and be unhappy in the long run.

    I think a MCP will get you a job, then you can see if you really do want to work for IT and continue with your education.

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    jdclyde

    everyone knows you go into IT for the big bucks, right?

    Well, that and the hot babes.... ;\

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    I don't know about either of those...

    :0

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    jdclyde

    yes, you do....

    ]:) ;\

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    Jack-M

    My name is Jack and I started work for what used to be "The Bell Telephone Company of America" in 1965. I started as a lineman, diggin' holes and cilbin' poles. For 2 years.
    The phone rang on my boss's desk and he got the message I was going to the ATT assesment center in NYC. My return was a cable splicer, the top paying craft.
    3 Years there and next facilities engineer.
    3 years there and then Right of Way Agent, buying land for poles, bldgs., etc. $5000
    check in my pocket, no questions asked by my boss if I didn't exceed my limit. Off to Project engineer. Fiber optic runs, pole lines, guys, pull, state regs.,etc. etc.
    If you think I have something to offer write jack.manger@gmail.com...........Good Luck