Questions

What religion was Adolph Hitler?

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What religion was Adolph Hitler?

john.a.wills
Born and brought up an Austrian, one would expect him to be Catholic. But the church he inspired as Leader was a transformed United Evangelical. I have read the first volume of Mein Kampf, the autobiographical part, and noticed no reference to his own religion and only one to that of others.
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    Kiltie

    Looks like you are trying to start a discussion.

    However, are you aware of the convention that the first mention usually signifies an end to discussion?

    Called Godwin's Law

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    It seems pointless to start a thread with that ;-)

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    crsukumar

    He was belong to animal religion.+

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    yobtaf

    I have often wondered what Religion he was.

    I would just like to know.

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    BorgInva

    If you want my opinion, I say the religion of evil. If you were looking for a serious answer, I am sorry but that is all I have.

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    georgeou

    There is extensive history on it. They believed they were decendants of a long line of an ancient superior race of people. They had their own cult religion.

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    john.a.wills

    The Nazis actually had 2 cults: they tried to revive the religion of Thor, Wotan etc.; they also tried to transform the Protestant church with a Paul-less NT among other things. But what did Hitler himself officially believe? In Germany the IRS takes in proportion to your income tax due an amount for your church; which church was Hitler taxed for? Where was he baptized? Was he ever a fervent Catholic or Protestant?

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    john.a.wills

    I mentioned in asking the question some of the places I have looked.

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    Deadly Ernest

    He attended both Catholic and Anglican churches as a youngster. While a student in Vienna he became a devout Communist, he was even an area commissar at one time, but became disillusioned with it, as it didn't go far enough and he wanted something that was more German based, not a world wide thing. In the NAZI party, he moulded its teachings to be more along the communist line, but a lot more hard line. He also added a lot of the racial superiority stuff, there wasn't much until he started incorporating it into the NAZI policy and theology.

    But his main religion was Hitlerism, all hail the great Adolph

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    Absolutely

    Really? My impression is that his lack of any strong individual personality was the void that was replaced by fanatical collectivism. Also, I don't know anything of Hitler's pre-Nazi personality that's particularly similar to Nazism or its ideology. As I see it, he was just a dork who identified extremely easily with the worst common traits of his recently defeated nation. Inferiority complex, chip on his shoulder, insanely exaggerated nationalism: remind you of anybody?

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    deepsand

    Does this person have a living father, who once occupied the same office, with whom he shares 3 initial of his name, and who thinks he knows far more about geopolitics than does his father?

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    Absolutely

    It was the lack of personality that gave it away. Too many clues.

    Anyway, you're right, I meant GWB.

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    deepsand

    There are more than a few here who would have no end of trouble arriving at the correct answer.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    is this a contemporary character?

    There's no comparison between the two, Adolf was a much better orator, though I couldn't understand him either

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    deepsand

    As for Adolf, perhaps that's simply owing to not understanding a "foreign" language.

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    Absolutely

    When morons speak a language I don't understand, I at least have the option of imagining that they're saying something sensible.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Zu befehl mein fuhrer.

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    deepsand

    But, not well when in print alone.

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    mindilator

    but you are right and that was an appropriate analogy.

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    john.a.wills

    In Austria? I thought all the Anglicans in Austria were U.S. and Commonwealth ex-pats. And Mein Kampf doesn't mention anything about being a student in Vienna, just a worker. I admit that Mein Kampf may not be reliable, but it seems a good first approximation to an accurate biography.

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    Deadly Ernest

    but I know he attended Catholic and protestant churches, I'm fairly sure it was Anglican - because it surprised my that he could attend such a church in Austria.

    As to being a uni student, he studied art in Vienna, the few of his signed paintings that are about are worth quite a bit now days. He was also a member of the Communist Party, and reached the rank of Area Commissar.

    Mein Kampf is how he'd like his biography to come out, as well as his thoughts etc. I've not read it as I don't read German, and a few people I know who do, say the English translation are not good translations of the German expressions and phrases used. Seems he used a lot of phrases that have more cultural related meanings than literal word by word translations, well that's how they explained it.

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    deepsand

    http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm

    This is but one of many references that can be found via a Google search for "hitler's religious beliefs".

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    john.a.wills

    Thank you. I suppose a significant line of inquiry would be to find out whether AH was actually baptized as a baby or later. If as a baby, it should be fairly easy to search in the records of the churches in his home town, whose name I at the moment forget. Anyone fancy a trip to Austria with that purpose?

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    deepsand

    I'm assuming that you have tried, or will try searches using the quoted phrase that I noted.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    I was christened C Of E, but I'm not a christian, if they wanted my input they wouldn't have threatened me with drowning at a few months old would they?

    Wouldn't mind seeing Austria though.

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    deepsand

    Makes me a bit - but, only a little bit - glad that my mother is Lutheran.

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    Deadly Ernest

    that I know of that do that are the Baptists and the Latter-day Saints. I was born High Anglican, and grew up low Anglican, and both use the sprinkling of what on the forehead, with water from the baptismal font, and have done for many years.

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    X-MarCap

    Getting buried (baptized) makes no sense to use just a couple of drops...

    The concept of baptism was a washing away of sins. Maybe a couple of drops for a newborn, but for me I needed a river...

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    deepsand

    The Anabaptists, of course, hold that only an adult can make an informed choice as to whether or not to follow any particular religious belief, and, as a result, baptize only adults, using immersion.

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    Deadly Ernest

    on your forehead equate to drowning. The only major churches that do full dunking, that I know of, are the Baptists and the Latter-day Saints. I was born High Anglican, and grew up low Anglican, and both use the sprinkling of what on the forehead, with water from the baptismal font, and have done for many years.

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    deepsand

    who, despite their protests to the contrary, share many of the liturgical practices of the Episcopalians and other Anglicans.

    The one striking difference is that Lutheran Bishops serve as such for a fixed period of time and then return to being Pastors.

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    JamesRL

    There has been an ongoing interfaith dialogue in Canada between Lutherans and Anglicans, and as a result, Lutherans are now able to preside over services in an Anglican church and vice versa in Canada. That would speak to a great similarity in litergy and theology.

    Its also worth noting that the Anglican and Roman Catholic Church have been in discussions for years, but little likelyhood of achieving something similar with them. Anglicans have married priests, women priests and Bishops, and have substantial differences in some theological areas.

    James

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    deepsand

    And, I can tell you that my devout Lutheran mother is not at all happy with it, given her unfaltering conviction that her's are the only true beliefs.

    Of course, this distress did not begin recently; as a child I recall her becoming quite upset when our church changed hymnals. For her, this was a sure sign that the Lutheran Church was being perverted by the corrupt. Things only got worse for her as the various synods merged.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    I was only a few months old, and there's this nutter in a frock who believes in ritual canibalism holding me over a bowl of steaming water. (Why are churches always cold?)

    Oh well, it made my parents happy.

    Didn't mean anything to me though, how could it?

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    Deadly Ernest

    and with such a big area, the heat from the people, rises to the ceiling, that's usually a good distance away.

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    deepsand

    It was actually made via "Reply" to Tony's above post!

    1st the Double Posts, which continue to plague, and now this.

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    onbliss

    ...though my question is provocative, hopefully it does not get batted down as being "trollish".

    In couple of discussions, outside TR, people have claimed that Christian Church stood silently as Hitler killed the Jews. Thereby implying some sort of approval. How valid or absurd are such claims? Any iota of truth to such claims?

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    JamesRL

    Not even one Catholic Church if you count Roman and Eastern Orthodox(and the branches of each).

    And as for Protestants...well they are even more divergent.

    Were there churches who spoke out? Of course there were. I remember reading of mass rallies in Toronto in the late thirties, but before the war, protesting Hitler's treatment of the Jews, sponsored by many Christian Church groups (mostly protestant).

    In Germany many Lutherans stood up and were punished. A leading Lutheran theologian named Dietrich Bonhoeffer was actively anti-Nazi and was arrested and killed.

    As to the Catholic Church, while many priests did oppose the Nazi's indivdually, the church(the Pope) made no official pronouncements.

    James

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    onbliss

    ...I managed to convey something that I did not mean :-)

    I understand there are several churches and not one. I did mean the different churches.

    How intense were the protests?

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    john.a.wills

    The Pope issued an encyclical, Mit brennender Sorge, condemning Naziism. It is said to have been read from every Catholic pulpit in Germany. It should not be forgotten that many of those murdered for being Jews were actually Catholics, Edith Stein being the most famous of these.

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    JamesRL

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html

    ...and it is a pretty equivacal document.

    It condemns non Christian things the Nazis are doing, it encourages priests in difficult times. Its very round about/circumspect.

    The word Jew or Hebrew does not appear in the entire text. Its is more focussed on preservation of the church than the evils the Nazis were doing.

    James

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    Tony Hopkinson

    attacks on catholics and a lot of whining about how they had entered into the 1933 concordat, in the best interests of the german catholics, and now Adolf was doing them up the back.

    That's what happens when you are dumb enough to turn the other cheek.

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    stephanisat

    while he was still a Cardinal that if Hitler and the Nazis didn't bother German Catholics and allowed them to continue worshipping without interference, the Catholic Church would stay out of Hitler's political "affairs." When that Cardinal became Pope, he was aware of what was going on, but because he had made a deal with Hitler, neither he nor his agents spoke out against the Shoah (Holocaust).

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    Tony Hopkinson

    about the treatment of his faithful, good old Adolph having violated the concordat, he didn't feel any pressure to mention the persecution of jews, romany, communists, homosexuals and witnesses at the same time.

    Not even an oh by the way?

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    john.a.wills

    against the underlying assumptions of Naziism, e.g. racial superiority, national views as against objectivity - we have read the same encyclical haven't we?

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    Tony Hopkinson

    I read absolutley no specific mention of the pogrom against the jews though.

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    neilb@uk

    was pure Catholic of that time. It can also be seen in the attitude of the (Catholic) Poles to the siting of the Holocaust camps and the Poles reaction - or lack - to the Warsaw Ghetto and the uprising.

    Hitler was undoubtedly a Christian. Mein Kampf: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."

    Greek Orthodox Serbs were massacred by Hitler's puppet, Ante Pavelic (Catholic? Oh, yes). No disapproval was shown either by Hitler or, for that matter, The Vatican. The Vatican offered no criticism to Hitler which suggests that they, at least, considered him a Catholic.

    In 1941, Hitler informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the Catholic Church, and, as we see on many occasions, the Catholic Church never left him.

    It's worth noting that much good and even Great literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mien Kampf never appeared on the Index of Forbidden Books.

    The problem is that no religion wishes to claim Hitler -least of all the Catholic Church.

    Hmmmmm. Not sure which I hate most now. Hitler or the Catholic Church.

    I could go on (and on) but this would probably turn into a rant...

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    JamesRL

    The Eastern Orthodox Church was pretty anti-semetic too. The "protocols of the elders of Zion" was created by them to stir up anti-semetic hatred pre WWI.

    Much of German anti-semiticism rose after the German surrender in WWI. At the end of the war, the Germans had not suffered a shattering defeat, and somehow felt betrayed when the government surrendered. The looked for a scapegoat and blamed the Jews. The real cause of German surrender was the economic collapse at home and the real threat of anarchy or communist revolt, both of which were blamed on German Jews.

    I would suggest that Hitler was as Catholic as Saddam was Muslim - when it suited his propoganda purpose, he would say it.
    But he certainly tolerated the cults that the Nazi party were forming - even encouraged them, which if he were a "true" catholic he would not do.

    The Catholic chruch has much to answer for in terms of not speaking out. But there were catholic martyrs who were killed for saving jews or opposing the Nazi party, including priests who must have had tacit support at some level. There is evidence that the Catholic church passed on information to the allies.

    James

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    neilb@uk

    I think my ire was, and still is, directed at the Vatican hierarchy and how monstrously out-of-touch they have been and still are with the people that they lead and the ideals that they promote.

    Hitler considered himself Catholic, though. Comments that he made confirming his Catholicism were private and reported in post-war memoirs of surviving generals. I don't for a moment suggest that he was a good Catholic! But they've had a few other bad ones down the years.

    Neil :)

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    john.a.wills

    I would like to know just what chapter of Mein Kampf you are quoting. I am prettty certain it is not in volume 1. I would also like some kind of reference for the remark made to General Engel. As for the Catholic Church never leaving Hitler, the Diocese of Berlin alone counted 20 martyrs.

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    neilb@uk

    Both are quoted widely. I can't give you the page number for the Mein Kampf from memory and choose not to search further as I don't actually care that much, I'm afraid.
    As for the twenty martyrs, not really that many when measured against the number of dead Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, "mental defectives", etc that Berlin produced during the same period. I will accept that Catholics produced heroes during WWII but to label them "twenty martyrs" when compared with the truly unsung heroes doesn't really impress me. My main ire - as I said to James above - was aimed at the Vatican who behaved in a manner of which they should be truly ashamed.

    "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work." -Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

    Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith (...) we need believing people. -Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933.

    I could go on but I won't.

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    john.a.wills

    I don't want the page number from Mein Kampf, I want a proper reference, chapter and paragraph, independent of edition.
    Your ire at the Vatican is misplaced, arising from Hochhuth: Der Stellvertreter, a work of fiction. The Vatican condemned Naziism in the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge. As for Hitler's interest in religious instruction in schools, he closed all the Catholic schools in Berlin. And 20 martyrs is actually quite a lot for a minority church, which had plently of unsung heroes as well - Ernst Thrasolt, for instance, let a dozen Jews use his house as shelter on their escape. But what religion did Hitler have on his income-tax card? That is the question.

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    neilb@uk

    Alas, you are going to be disappointed.

    The original question you posed was of mild interest to me and I posted what I had been told or read over the past years. I find, on reflection now, that I really don't care enough about Hitler's religion to push it further.

    A quick google finds

    Archbishop Konrad Gr?ber
    Bishop Wilhlem Berning
    Cardinal Bertram
    Cardinal Faulhaber
    Bishop Buchberger
    Bishop Hilfrich

    and others showing the institutional anti-semitism of the Catholic church of that time help to balance the martyrs. The Protestant Church in Germany wasn't a lot better but at least it was local and not in any way supported by international church leaders.

    Pius XII I've seen called "Hitler's Pope". I don't know the truth of this and I suspect no-one outside the inner echelons of the Vatican does.

    Neil

    p.s. If you reckon that I'm a tad anti-Catholic, you're probably right on the money.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Monsignor Augustin Voloshin, what a nice fella.

    One of four ordained catholic priests who ran Adolf friendly governments.

    The Lutherans in germany were actually worse, there's also a good body of evidence that persecution of jews for centuries through out europe by the christian churches helped Adolf incite the level of hatred he did.

    Not saying catholics or even christians are bad, but as soon as you dig in to church politics, you get soiled.

    Haven't seen Adolf's income tax card, f*ckwit probably changed it anyway, guy rewrote history on a regular basis.

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    X-MarCap

    He would claim to be "doing God's will" or some other stupid catch phrase.

    He was by actions, a follower of Satan.

    Don't slur a whole religion because of one lunatic. It would be no more rational to abuse all Sailors because I think Sandy is the kind of Ring Knocker who would willingly sacrifice others to advance himself.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    The church has been so effective at that, any efforts on my part would be wasted. The catholic church, has had it's hand in the till , politics, wars and choir boys arses for so long, it will take another century, possibly two of good behaviour before anyone vaguely aware of history will forget.

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    yobtaf

    If we still live our live by a book of fairy tales that's
    thousands of years old in the next century we're doomed.

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    neilb@uk

    "it's hand in the till , politics, wars and choir boys arses"

    Classic! :^0

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    Tony Hopkinson

    in fact I'm quite chuffed with it. I did get one point wrong though, it should probably be a millenium not a century of good behaviour.

    Robert, as long as we exist as a race we will have religion, it fills a deep seated need for some. Faith we'll have even longer.

    I have hopes that both will be one day a thing that unifies us not separates us, but I'm a foolish optimist, with a general faith in humanity.

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    steve

    Neilb wrote, "Hitler was undoubtedly a Christian."

    Whether he would describe himself as such or not is a moot point, but it is clear to me, an ordained minister, that there is no way in which he could have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ (= to be a Christian) and follow the path that he did. Christianity and his actions are completely incompatible. I can give you chapter and verse, but I suspect it may not be welcomed. Suffice it to say that Christianity is a relationship with God made possible by Jesus' sacrificial death, that leads to love and good works in those who follow Him. So whether Hitler considered himself Christian or called himself one, it wouldn't make him any more right than me saying that I'm a pedigree dalmatian dog.

    I'm wavering between finding this thread purely bizarre and downright offensive. This is not a flame aimed at you, neilb, or anyone, just a call for common sense. As has rightly been observed, his "religion" was based on self promotion and self-justification, nothing more, nothing less, even allowing for the "creation" of the "master race."

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    Tony Hopkinson

    tenets of christianity. Very few do.

    He said he did though. Several ordained ministers agreed with, supported and followed him. Many devout christians fought and died for him.

    You know there have been and are ordained ministers who've abused their faith, their flock and their god, in a quest for self agrandisement just as repulsive as Adolf's.

    You also know that the church hierarchy has shown a profound reluctance to censure it's own members.

    What are us non-believers meant to make of Christ's Vicar on earth, when he implicitly condones pederasty, in order to keep the IMAGE of his beloved mother church unstained?

    What are to make of the explicit sanction of mass murder for the glory of the mother church. Not to mention, gold, jewels, land and other mere earthly trappings.

    Christianity might not espouse evil (by it's definition), the church has and does.

    Now that I find offensive, when it describes me as immoral, an insult to god and someone slated for an after life burning in the deepest pits of ****.

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    BorgInva

    Hear hear!

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    onbliss

    ...is displayed in the Questions tab? Moreover, the tags are crisp and clear about the nature of topic :-)

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    onbliss

    ...John must have selected "Question -- I am looking for a specific answer." when starting the discussion.

    Did I answer my own question? Can I get points please :-) ?

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    onbliss

    Well I am reading the book "Jerusalem Countdown" and hadn't yet read the part where there was material germaine to this thread. I stumbled across the part this evening. I would have not needed to post the question displaying my earlier question on this subject :-)

    As per John Hagee in his book "Jerusalem Countdown", Martin Luther was deeply appreciated by Hitler. The rest of the post is based on John Hagee's book as well:Pages 77-80.

    Martin Luther
    Luther's doctrine provided suitable texts for Hitler's program of extermination. Hagee quotes Luther's "Concerning the Jews and Their Lives" to support his argument.

    Nazi Anti-Semitism
    Hagee cites the book "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" (by Hay??) to argue that the Nazi pogrom was a pious performance in honor of the anniversary of Martin Luther's birthday.

    Hagee also cites Hitler raving "Hence today, I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord". Hagee uses the translation of Mein Kempf by Ralph Manheim, 1971. (page 65??) He also uses http://www.sidroth.org/jewishroots_main3.htm this for reference.

    Hitler and Catholic Church
    Hagee says Hitler attended Catholic school; Catholic Church and Pope Pius XII never criticized him after he turned the "demonic monster". Hagee accuses Pope of joining Hitler in the infamous Concordant of Collaboration turning over German youth over to Nazism.

    Hagee goes on to say that Hitler considered the Concordant as an "unrestricted acceptance of national socialism by the Vatican". It seems this caused Hitler's portrait to be on the walls of Catholic, parochial, and Sunday schools. The Church began to ring bells at every Nazi victory. Hagee bases this on the book "The War against Jews" (Runes??).

    It started from the Vatican, the German bishops followed the Vatican; the priests followed the bishops and the parishoners fell in line. On Hitler's 50th birthday Protestant and Catholic bishops of all but two dioceses in Germany wrote the following in their pastoral letters "Remember, O Lord, our Fuhrer, whose secret wishes thou knowest. Protect him with thy inexhaustible kindess. Give him the victory of Heaven for him and his foe". He uses Runes book again for the above quote.

    Hagee concludes that the Catholic Church definitely considered Hitler to be a Christian. And ofcourse Hagee quotes somebody else about Hitler being part Jewish.

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    john.a.wills

    So glaube ich heute im Sinne des allm?chtigen Sch?pfers zu handeln: Indem ich mich des Juden erwehre, k?mpfe ich f?r das Werk des Herrn.
    That is the last sentence of the 2nd chapter of the 1st volume of Mein Kampf. It relates to discoveries in his Vienna period, notably that Jews were in charge of the Social Democratic Party. It is not a religious utterance, because he makes it clear earlier on in the chapter that he considers Jews to have national rather than confessional identity.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    was a total arse.

    His austrian period, was that the one where he wasn't a german?

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    Deadly Ernest

    OK, but it seemed a good pun

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    onbliss

    English. Did you expect me to know German? Translation along with pointers to context would be beneficial, don't you think?

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    john.a.wills

    I was giving the original of a text of which YOU had given an indirectly quoted translation - the one about resisitng the Jews being the Lord's work.

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    onbliss

    ....what you were saying and to which text of MINE it pertained, if I don't understand German?

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    BIOSphereopts

    Hitler and Himmler both were into Germanic mysticism. If you get a chance find the documentery "The Occult History of the Third Reich". It covers the origins of the Swastika, rituals of the SS, and Hitlers belief in the Aryan man and his obsession in posessing the "Sword of Destiny".

    Very interesting.

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    tioedong

    Hitler, like most Austrians, was baptized Catholic and attended Catholic gradeschool.
    However, there is no evidence he attended church after reaching manhood.
    When he was a student in Vienna he was involved in cults concerning the occult.

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    john.a.wills

    What is your evidence that Hitler was brought up Catholic? Have you read a book that quotes the baptismal registry and the school lists? What you say is likely, but I would like some evidence.

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    Kiltie

    Looks like you are trying to start a discussion.

    However, are you aware of the convention that the first mention usually signifies an end to discussion?

    Called Godwin's Law

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    It seems pointless to start a thread with that ;-)

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    crsukumar

    He was belong to animal religion.+

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    yobtaf

    I have often wondered what Religion he was.

    I would just like to know.

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    BorgInva

    If you want my opinion, I say the religion of evil. If you were looking for a serious answer, I am sorry but that is all I have.

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    georgeou

    There is extensive history on it. They believed they were decendants of a long line of an ancient superior race of people. They had their own cult religion.

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    john.a.wills

    The Nazis actually had 2 cults: they tried to revive the religion of Thor, Wotan etc.; they also tried to transform the Protestant church with a Paul-less NT among other things. But what did Hitler himself officially believe? In Germany the IRS takes in proportion to your income tax due an amount for your church; which church was Hitler taxed for? Where was he baptized? Was he ever a fervent Catholic or Protestant?

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    john.a.wills

    I mentioned in asking the question some of the places I have looked.

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    Deadly Ernest

    He attended both Catholic and Anglican churches as a youngster. While a student in Vienna he became a devout Communist, he was even an area commissar at one time, but became disillusioned with it, as it didn't go far enough and he wanted something that was more German based, not a world wide thing. In the NAZI party, he moulded its teachings to be more along the communist line, but a lot more hard line. He also added a lot of the racial superiority stuff, there wasn't much until he started incorporating it into the NAZI policy and theology.

    But his main religion was Hitlerism, all hail the great Adolph

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    Absolutely

    Really? My impression is that his lack of any strong individual personality was the void that was replaced by fanatical collectivism. Also, I don't know anything of Hitler's pre-Nazi personality that's particularly similar to Nazism or its ideology. As I see it, he was just a dork who identified extremely easily with the worst common traits of his recently defeated nation. Inferiority complex, chip on his shoulder, insanely exaggerated nationalism: remind you of anybody?

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    deepsand

    Does this person have a living father, who once occupied the same office, with whom he shares 3 initial of his name, and who thinks he knows far more about geopolitics than does his father?

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    Absolutely

    It was the lack of personality that gave it away. Too many clues.

    Anyway, you're right, I meant GWB.

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    deepsand

    There are more than a few here who would have no end of trouble arriving at the correct answer.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    is this a contemporary character?

    There's no comparison between the two, Adolf was a much better orator, though I couldn't understand him either

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    deepsand

    As for Adolf, perhaps that's simply owing to not understanding a "foreign" language.

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    Absolutely

    When morons speak a language I don't understand, I at least have the option of imagining that they're saying something sensible.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Zu befehl mein fuhrer.

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    deepsand

    But, not well when in print alone.

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    mindilator

    but you are right and that was an appropriate analogy.

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    john.a.wills

    In Austria? I thought all the Anglicans in Austria were U.S. and Commonwealth ex-pats. And Mein Kampf doesn't mention anything about being a student in Vienna, just a worker. I admit that Mein Kampf may not be reliable, but it seems a good first approximation to an accurate biography.

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    Deadly Ernest

    but I know he attended Catholic and protestant churches, I'm fairly sure it was Anglican - because it surprised my that he could attend such a church in Austria.

    As to being a uni student, he studied art in Vienna, the few of his signed paintings that are about are worth quite a bit now days. He was also a member of the Communist Party, and reached the rank of Area Commissar.

    Mein Kampf is how he'd like his biography to come out, as well as his thoughts etc. I've not read it as I don't read German, and a few people I know who do, say the English translation are not good translations of the German expressions and phrases used. Seems he used a lot of phrases that have more cultural related meanings than literal word by word translations, well that's how they explained it.

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    deepsand

    http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm

    This is but one of many references that can be found via a Google search for "hitler's religious beliefs".

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    john.a.wills

    Thank you. I suppose a significant line of inquiry would be to find out whether AH was actually baptized as a baby or later. If as a baby, it should be fairly easy to search in the records of the churches in his home town, whose name I at the moment forget. Anyone fancy a trip to Austria with that purpose?

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    deepsand

    I'm assuming that you have tried, or will try searches using the quoted phrase that I noted.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    I was christened C Of E, but I'm not a christian, if they wanted my input they wouldn't have threatened me with drowning at a few months old would they?

    Wouldn't mind seeing Austria though.

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    deepsand

    Makes me a bit - but, only a little bit - glad that my mother is Lutheran.

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    Deadly Ernest

    that I know of that do that are the Baptists and the Latter-day Saints. I was born High Anglican, and grew up low Anglican, and both use the sprinkling of what on the forehead, with water from the baptismal font, and have done for many years.

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    X-MarCap

    Getting buried (baptized) makes no sense to use just a couple of drops...

    The concept of baptism was a washing away of sins. Maybe a couple of drops for a newborn, but for me I needed a river...

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    deepsand

    The Anabaptists, of course, hold that only an adult can make an informed choice as to whether or not to follow any particular religious belief, and, as a result, baptize only adults, using immersion.

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    Deadly Ernest

    on your forehead equate to drowning. The only major churches that do full dunking, that I know of, are the Baptists and the Latter-day Saints. I was born High Anglican, and grew up low Anglican, and both use the sprinkling of what on the forehead, with water from the baptismal font, and have done for many years.

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    deepsand

    who, despite their protests to the contrary, share many of the liturgical practices of the Episcopalians and other Anglicans.

    The one striking difference is that Lutheran Bishops serve as such for a fixed period of time and then return to being Pastors.

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    JamesRL

    There has been an ongoing interfaith dialogue in Canada between Lutherans and Anglicans, and as a result, Lutherans are now able to preside over services in an Anglican church and vice versa in Canada. That would speak to a great similarity in litergy and theology.

    Its also worth noting that the Anglican and Roman Catholic Church have been in discussions for years, but little likelyhood of achieving something similar with them. Anglicans have married priests, women priests and Bishops, and have substantial differences in some theological areas.

    James

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    deepsand

    And, I can tell you that my devout Lutheran mother is not at all happy with it, given her unfaltering conviction that her's are the only true beliefs.

    Of course, this distress did not begin recently; as a child I recall her becoming quite upset when our church changed hymnals. For her, this was a sure sign that the Lutheran Church was being perverted by the corrupt. Things only got worse for her as the various synods merged.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    I was only a few months old, and there's this nutter in a frock who believes in ritual canibalism holding me over a bowl of steaming water. (Why are churches always cold?)

    Oh well, it made my parents happy.

    Didn't mean anything to me though, how could it?

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    Deadly Ernest

    and with such a big area, the heat from the people, rises to the ceiling, that's usually a good distance away.

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    deepsand

    It was actually made via "Reply" to Tony's above post!

    1st the Double Posts, which continue to plague, and now this.

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    onbliss

    ...though my question is provocative, hopefully it does not get batted down as being "trollish".

    In couple of discussions, outside TR, people have claimed that Christian Church stood silently as Hitler killed the Jews. Thereby implying some sort of approval. How valid or absurd are such claims? Any iota of truth to such claims?

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    JamesRL

    Not even one Catholic Church if you count Roman and Eastern Orthodox(and the branches of each).

    And as for Protestants...well they are even more divergent.

    Were there churches who spoke out? Of course there were. I remember reading of mass rallies in Toronto in the late thirties, but before the war, protesting Hitler's treatment of the Jews, sponsored by many Christian Church groups (mostly protestant).

    In Germany many Lutherans stood up and were punished. A leading Lutheran theologian named Dietrich Bonhoeffer was actively anti-Nazi and was arrested and killed.

    As to the Catholic Church, while many priests did oppose the Nazi's indivdually, the church(the Pope) made no official pronouncements.

    James

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    onbliss

    ...I managed to convey something that I did not mean :-)

    I understand there are several churches and not one. I did mean the different churches.

    How intense were the protests?

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    john.a.wills

    The Pope issued an encyclical, Mit brennender Sorge, condemning Naziism. It is said to have been read from every Catholic pulpit in Germany. It should not be forgotten that many of those murdered for being Jews were actually Catholics, Edith Stein being the most famous of these.

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    JamesRL

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html

    ...and it is a pretty equivacal document.

    It condemns non Christian things the Nazis are doing, it encourages priests in difficult times. Its very round about/circumspect.

    The word Jew or Hebrew does not appear in the entire text. Its is more focussed on preservation of the church than the evils the Nazis were doing.

    James

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    Tony Hopkinson

    attacks on catholics and a lot of whining about how they had entered into the 1933 concordat, in the best interests of the german catholics, and now Adolf was doing them up the back.

    That's what happens when you are dumb enough to turn the other cheek.

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    stephanisat

    while he was still a Cardinal that if Hitler and the Nazis didn't bother German Catholics and allowed them to continue worshipping without interference, the Catholic Church would stay out of Hitler's political "affairs." When that Cardinal became Pope, he was aware of what was going on, but because he had made a deal with Hitler, neither he nor his agents spoke out against the Shoah (Holocaust).

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    Tony Hopkinson

    about the treatment of his faithful, good old Adolph having violated the concordat, he didn't feel any pressure to mention the persecution of jews, romany, communists, homosexuals and witnesses at the same time.

    Not even an oh by the way?

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    john.a.wills

    against the underlying assumptions of Naziism, e.g. racial superiority, national views as against objectivity - we have read the same encyclical haven't we?

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    Tony Hopkinson

    I read absolutley no specific mention of the pogrom against the jews though.

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    neilb@uk

    was pure Catholic of that time. It can also be seen in the attitude of the (Catholic) Poles to the siting of the Holocaust camps and the Poles reaction - or lack - to the Warsaw Ghetto and the uprising.

    Hitler was undoubtedly a Christian. Mein Kampf: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."

    Greek Orthodox Serbs were massacred by Hitler's puppet, Ante Pavelic (Catholic? Oh, yes). No disapproval was shown either by Hitler or, for that matter, The Vatican. The Vatican offered no criticism to Hitler which suggests that they, at least, considered him a Catholic.

    In 1941, Hitler informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the Catholic Church, and, as we see on many occasions, the Catholic Church never left him.

    It's worth noting that much good and even Great literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mien Kampf never appeared on the Index of Forbidden Books.

    The problem is that no religion wishes to claim Hitler -least of all the Catholic Church.

    Hmmmmm. Not sure which I hate most now. Hitler or the Catholic Church.

    I could go on (and on) but this would probably turn into a rant...

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    JamesRL

    The Eastern Orthodox Church was pretty anti-semetic too. The "protocols of the elders of Zion" was created by them to stir up anti-semetic hatred pre WWI.

    Much of German anti-semiticism rose after the German surrender in WWI. At the end of the war, the Germans had not suffered a shattering defeat, and somehow felt betrayed when the government surrendered. The looked for a scapegoat and blamed the Jews. The real cause of German surrender was the economic collapse at home and the real threat of anarchy or communist revolt, both of which were blamed on German Jews.

    I would suggest that Hitler was as Catholic as Saddam was Muslim - when it suited his propoganda purpose, he would say it.
    But he certainly tolerated the cults that the Nazi party were forming - even encouraged them, which if he were a "true" catholic he would not do.

    The Catholic chruch has much to answer for in terms of not speaking out. But there were catholic martyrs who were killed for saving jews or opposing the Nazi party, including priests who must have had tacit support at some level. There is evidence that the Catholic church passed on information to the allies.

    James

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    neilb@uk

    I think my ire was, and still is, directed at the Vatican hierarchy and how monstrously out-of-touch they have been and still are with the people that they lead and the ideals that they promote.

    Hitler considered himself Catholic, though. Comments that he made confirming his Catholicism were private and reported in post-war memoirs of surviving generals. I don't for a moment suggest that he was a good Catholic! But they've had a few other bad ones down the years.

    Neil :)

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    john.a.wills

    I would like to know just what chapter of Mein Kampf you are quoting. I am prettty certain it is not in volume 1. I would also like some kind of reference for the remark made to General Engel. As for the Catholic Church never leaving Hitler, the Diocese of Berlin alone counted 20 martyrs.

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    neilb@uk

    Both are quoted widely. I can't give you the page number for the Mein Kampf from memory and choose not to search further as I don't actually care that much, I'm afraid.
    As for the twenty martyrs, not really that many when measured against the number of dead Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, "mental defectives", etc that Berlin produced during the same period. I will accept that Catholics produced heroes during WWII but to label them "twenty martyrs" when compared with the truly unsung heroes doesn't really impress me. My main ire - as I said to James above - was aimed at the Vatican who behaved in a manner of which they should be truly ashamed.

    "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work." -Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

    Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith (...) we need believing people. -Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933.

    I could go on but I won't.

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    john.a.wills

    I don't want the page number from Mein Kampf, I want a proper reference, chapter and paragraph, independent of edition.
    Your ire at the Vatican is misplaced, arising from Hochhuth: Der Stellvertreter, a work of fiction. The Vatican condemned Naziism in the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge. As for Hitler's interest in religious instruction in schools, he closed all the Catholic schools in Berlin. And 20 martyrs is actually quite a lot for a minority church, which had plently of unsung heroes as well - Ernst Thrasolt, for instance, let a dozen Jews use his house as shelter on their escape. But what religion did Hitler have on his income-tax card? That is the question.

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    neilb@uk

    Alas, you are going to be disappointed.

    The original question you posed was of mild interest to me and I posted what I had been told or read over the past years. I find, on reflection now, that I really don't care enough about Hitler's religion to push it further.

    A quick google finds

    Archbishop Konrad Gr?ber
    Bishop Wilhlem Berning
    Cardinal Bertram
    Cardinal Faulhaber
    Bishop Buchberger
    Bishop Hilfrich

    and others showing the institutional anti-semitism of the Catholic church of that time help to balance the martyrs. The Protestant Church in Germany wasn't a lot better but at least it was local and not in any way supported by international church leaders.

    Pius XII I've seen called "Hitler's Pope". I don't know the truth of this and I suspect no-one outside the inner echelons of the Vatican does.

    Neil

    p.s. If you reckon that I'm a tad anti-Catholic, you're probably right on the money.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    Monsignor Augustin Voloshin, what a nice fella.

    One of four ordained catholic priests who ran Adolf friendly governments.

    The Lutherans in germany were actually worse, there's also a good body of evidence that persecution of jews for centuries through out europe by the christian churches helped Adolf incite the level of hatred he did.

    Not saying catholics or even christians are bad, but as soon as you dig in to church politics, you get soiled.

    Haven't seen Adolf's income tax card, f*ckwit probably changed it anyway, guy rewrote history on a regular basis.

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    X-MarCap

    He would claim to be "doing God's will" or some other stupid catch phrase.

    He was by actions, a follower of Satan.

    Don't slur a whole religion because of one lunatic. It would be no more rational to abuse all Sailors because I think Sandy is the kind of Ring Knocker who would willingly sacrifice others to advance himself.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    The church has been so effective at that, any efforts on my part would be wasted. The catholic church, has had it's hand in the till , politics, wars and choir boys arses for so long, it will take another century, possibly two of good behaviour before anyone vaguely aware of history will forget.

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    yobtaf

    If we still live our live by a book of fairy tales that's
    thousands of years old in the next century we're doomed.

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    neilb@uk

    "it's hand in the till , politics, wars and choir boys arses"

    Classic! :^0

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    Tony Hopkinson

    in fact I'm quite chuffed with it. I did get one point wrong though, it should probably be a millenium not a century of good behaviour.

    Robert, as long as we exist as a race we will have religion, it fills a deep seated need for some. Faith we'll have even longer.

    I have hopes that both will be one day a thing that unifies us not separates us, but I'm a foolish optimist, with a general faith in humanity.

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    steve

    Neilb wrote, "Hitler was undoubtedly a Christian."

    Whether he would describe himself as such or not is a moot point, but it is clear to me, an ordained minister, that there is no way in which he could have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ (= to be a Christian) and follow the path that he did. Christianity and his actions are completely incompatible. I can give you chapter and verse, but I suspect it may not be welcomed. Suffice it to say that Christianity is a relationship with God made possible by Jesus' sacrificial death, that leads to love and good works in those who follow Him. So whether Hitler considered himself Christian or called himself one, it wouldn't make him any more right than me saying that I'm a pedigree dalmatian dog.

    I'm wavering between finding this thread purely bizarre and downright offensive. This is not a flame aimed at you, neilb, or anyone, just a call for common sense. As has rightly been observed, his "religion" was based on self promotion and self-justification, nothing more, nothing less, even allowing for the "creation" of the "master race."

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    Tony Hopkinson

    tenets of christianity. Very few do.

    He said he did though. Several ordained ministers agreed with, supported and followed him. Many devout christians fought and died for him.

    You know there have been and are ordained ministers who've abused their faith, their flock and their god, in a quest for self agrandisement just as repulsive as Adolf's.

    You also know that the church hierarchy has shown a profound reluctance to censure it's own members.

    What are us non-believers meant to make of Christ's Vicar on earth, when he implicitly condones pederasty, in order to keep the IMAGE of his beloved mother church unstained?

    What are to make of the explicit sanction of mass murder for the glory of the mother church. Not to mention, gold, jewels, land and other mere earthly trappings.

    Christianity might not espouse evil (by it's definition), the church has and does.

    Now that I find offensive, when it describes me as immoral, an insult to god and someone slated for an after life burning in the deepest pits of ****.

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    BorgInva

    Hear hear!

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    onbliss

    ...is displayed in the Questions tab? Moreover, the tags are crisp and clear about the nature of topic :-)

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    onbliss

    ...John must have selected "Question -- I am looking for a specific answer." when starting the discussion.

    Did I answer my own question? Can I get points please :-) ?

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    onbliss

    Well I am reading the book "Jerusalem Countdown" and hadn't yet read the part where there was material germaine to this thread. I stumbled across the part this evening. I would have not needed to post the question displaying my earlier question on this subject :-)

    As per John Hagee in his book "Jerusalem Countdown", Martin Luther was deeply appreciated by Hitler. The rest of the post is based on John Hagee's book as well:Pages 77-80.

    Martin Luther
    Luther's doctrine provided suitable texts for Hitler's program of extermination. Hagee quotes Luther's "Concerning the Jews and Their Lives" to support his argument.

    Nazi Anti-Semitism
    Hagee cites the book "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" (by Hay??) to argue that the Nazi pogrom was a pious performance in honor of the anniversary of Martin Luther's birthday.

    Hagee also cites Hitler raving "Hence today, I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord". Hagee uses the translation of Mein Kempf by Ralph Manheim, 1971. (page 65??) He also uses http://www.sidroth.org/jewishroots_main3.htm this for reference.

    Hitler and Catholic Church
    Hagee says Hitler attended Catholic school; Catholic Church and Pope Pius XII never criticized him after he turned the "demonic monster". Hagee accuses Pope of joining Hitler in the infamous Concordant of Collaboration turning over German youth over to Nazism.

    Hagee goes on to say that Hitler considered the Concordant as an "unrestricted acceptance of national socialism by the Vatican". It seems this caused Hitler's portrait to be on the walls of Catholic, parochial, and Sunday schools. The Church began to ring bells at every Nazi victory. Hagee bases this on the book "The War against Jews" (Runes??).

    It started from the Vatican, the German bishops followed the Vatican; the priests followed the bishops and the parishoners fell in line. On Hitler's 50th birthday Protestant and Catholic bishops of all but two dioceses in Germany wrote the following in their pastoral letters "Remember, O Lord, our Fuhrer, whose secret wishes thou knowest. Protect him with thy inexhaustible kindess. Give him the victory of Heaven for him and his foe". He uses Runes book again for the above quote.

    Hagee concludes that the Catholic Church definitely considered Hitler to be a Christian. And ofcourse Hagee quotes somebody else about Hitler being part Jewish.

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    john.a.wills

    So glaube ich heute im Sinne des allm?chtigen Sch?pfers zu handeln: Indem ich mich des Juden erwehre, k?mpfe ich f?r das Werk des Herrn.
    That is the last sentence of the 2nd chapter of the 1st volume of Mein Kampf. It relates to discoveries in his Vienna period, notably that Jews were in charge of the Social Democratic Party. It is not a religious utterance, because he makes it clear earlier on in the chapter that he considers Jews to have national rather than confessional identity.

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    Tony Hopkinson

    was a total arse.

    His austrian period, was that the one where he wasn't a german?

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    Deadly Ernest

    OK, but it seemed a good pun

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    onbliss

    English. Did you expect me to know German? Translation along with pointers to context would be beneficial, don't you think?

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    john.a.wills

    I was giving the original of a text of which YOU had given an indirectly quoted translation - the one about resisitng the Jews being the Lord's work.

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    onbliss

    ....what you were saying and to which text of MINE it pertained, if I don't understand German?

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    BIOSphereopts

    Hitler and Himmler both were into Germanic mysticism. If you get a chance find the documentery "The Occult History of the Third Reich". It covers the origins of the Swastika, rituals of the SS, and Hitlers belief in the Aryan man and his obsession in posessing the "Sword of Destiny".

    Very interesting.

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    tioedong

    Hitler, like most Austrians, was baptized Catholic and attended Catholic gradeschool.
    However, there is no evidence he attended church after reaching manhood.
    When he was a student in Vienna he was involved in cults concerning the occult.

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    john.a.wills

    What is your evidence that Hitler was brought up Catholic? Have you read a book that quotes the baptismal registry and the school lists? What you say is likely, but I would like some evidence.