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Brink of Destruction, aka What would Maxwell do?

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Brink of Destruction, aka What would Maxwell do?

AnsuGisalas
<a href=http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/oceans-on-brink-of-catastrophe-2300272.html>A catastrophic collapse of marine life?</a>

This would be bad.
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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Of doing anything on a Planetary scale it must be a Natural Event.

    So we shouldn't worry about it or the Scientists involved are in the pay of Others and are here to promote this.

    Col

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    AnsuGisalas

    because we're completely impotent in respect to stopping it.

    But learning to like soy is a good idea. If this goes down, I predict meat will got through the roof.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse. And everything in the sea died."
    Revelation 16:3

    No surprise.

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    jck

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    AnsuGisalas

    It's not like the egg-heads could dream it up on their own.
    The same system which transports nutrients around, and oxygenates the waters... apparently it can go (=has gone before) into a cascade which deoxygenates the whole thing. Ocean-wide cess-pool. It does it all by itself (or with the help of micro-organisms).

    Of course, it always gets better again... just takes a while.
    Only a million years or so.

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    maxwell edison

    Re:..... the panel of experts "found firm evidence" that the effects of climate change, coupled with other human-induced impacts such as overfishing and nutrient run-off from farming, have already caused a dramatic decline in ocean health.

    However, there is no firm evidence - or even flimsy evidence - that human activity is causing, or otherwise affecting, climate change.

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    santeewelding

    Haul out the biggest gun.

    For how many years (all my life) have we heard how much we don't know about the oceans? Only recently, for instance, the Craig Venter (sp?) survey of micro-organism DNA (we apparently can't begin to count them). Or, latest microwave ranging data from orbit about the configuration and distribution of Arctic pack ice; data never available before now and not yet assimulated.

    Now, we learn to the contrary. They're on top of the oceans, these people, are they?

    I came across the story earlier today. That's what I thought.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    Yet, each pronouncement we make in relation to what 'we' know, gets turned on its head in a year, or three, or ten...

    'We' don't know diddly.

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    AnsuGisalas

    trying to guess what it's doing.
    They're comparing it to the back-log of evidence of what it's done before (trias-perm), and when they think they see a pattern, they feel the cold iron grip of panic.

    A bit like someone strapped to the front of a big truck doing 100 hm/h on a narrow dirt road through dense forest.

    Yes, they can't see what's going on, but they sure as **** don't like where it could go.

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    santeewelding

    Fastened the straps?

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    AnsuGisalas

    may be we can't prove it yet, but we have reason to think it has to do with how it is that you are.

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    santeewelding

    Stage left.

    In tattered grace.

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    maxwell edison

    The MM GW/CC crowd, that is.

    They have so much personal baggage invested in the MM GW/CC scam that they will never admit they've been duped all along. There's much more evidence to support the assertion that they've been duped than there ever was to support the bogus claim in the first place.

    The MM GW/CC believers are fools - pure and simple.

    And Ansu apparently thinks he's being clever. But in reality, he's just one of the duped fools.

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    santeewelding

    Do not take Ansu for a fool.

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    AnsuGisalas

    What can you possibly know about what I appear to think?
    There's more evidence to you not knowing, than there ever was to support that bogus claim you made :)

    That's what you get when you will not engage head on.
    Flung dung.

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    santeewelding

    Gets as much attention from me as does acclamation of sanity, in another TR thread.

    Step with utter care. Else, I am all over your young ***.

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    AnsuGisalas

    "Proof Positive:
    Wanted, Dead or Alive!"

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    jck

    sounded like sexual harassment. :^0

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    jck

    Just as you say they have no proof that it is...

    You have none that it isn't...

    You're just as guilty as those you accuse.

    You're just as duped...congrats.

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    maxwell edison

    Climate change and/or global warming and/or global cooling happens as a matter of nature. We can't stop it from happening. To expect someone to prove that human activity is causing the change to occur any differently is one of the most intellectually dishonest things you could possibly ask. That's a negative impossible to prove.

    There IS plenty of evidence, however, that the ones making such claims HAVE manipulated, misinformed, lied, made omissions, made-up stuff, etc. And over the past twenty five years, NONE of their claims or predictions have come true. NONE of them.

    But we've had this discussion before. I don't expect you'll change your mind.

    Too many people have worshiped at the altar of global warming for too long; and others have switched denominations to worship at the altar of climate change. Regardless of their denomination of choice, both are 100 percent faith based. Absolutely NO evidence to support either claim.

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    jck

    You propose their research is poppycock. Yet, you can't disprove their research. Hence, you can not prove that their theory of cause is wrong.

    So, I'll go paragraph by paragraph (as I've done for years) and directly address you...since you seem to make a stink when people don't step up and do as you wish.

    "Climate change and/or global warming and/or global cooling happens as a matter of nature. We can't stop it from happening. To expect someone to prove that human activity is causing the change to occur any differently is one of the most intellectually dishonest things you could possibly ask. That's a negative impossible to prove."

    Yes, it absolutely happens. However, it happens in regular, *provable* scientific cycles and within certain tolerances.

    One example: Polar ice sheets. You have 100,000s of years of ice that stores both a) water whose content can be tested, and b) atmospheric gases at the poles trapped within the frozen crystals.

    Now, are you saying that all the research done on ice cores from dozens of locations from both poles that shows greenhouse gas content is now higher than ever within a window of about **** years...is all poppycock?

    Secondly, would you disbelieve that greenhouse gases trap heat in the atmosphere...and that each one has a lifetime that it stays within the atmosphere when released before breaking down?

    "There IS plenty of evidence, however, that the ones making such claims HAVE manipulated, misinformed, lied, made omissions, made-up stuff, etc. And over the past twenty five years, NONE of their claims or predictions have come true. NONE of them. "

    There's a FEW instances of things being manipulated or omitted. However, you refuse to acknowledge all the legitimate, complete, thorough research that points to the same conclusion.

    And, that is because you are indeed as biased as those whom you would claim are wrong and you call everything negative about their truthfulness but a liar.

    Hence, you believe the entire establishment is creating falsehoods just because a few have done shoddy or misleading work.

    Guess I should follow the same concept of thought, and think everyone who lives in your state is arrogant and self-righteous and assumes their belief is the best?

    "But we've had this discussion before. I don't expect you'll change your mind."

    As long as you provide no conclusive proof that you are right...yes, you won't change my mind.

    I'll stick with believing 1000s of PhDs doing their research scientifically who are experts in their field, rather than you who thinks he's smarter than all of them.

    "Too many people have worshiped at the altar of global warming for too long; and others have switched denominations to worship at the altar of climate change. Regardless of their denomination of choice, both are 100 percent faith based. Absolutely NO evidence to support either claim."

    Well, I worship at no such altar. I just know what makes sense.

    I once tried to give you a very simple, grade school example of why global warming would occur involving a pot with a pinhole in it, and someone pouring water into it.

    The greenhouse gas emissions increasing as they have since the beginning of the industrial revolution would not be a concern if the microbes and plant life with use them as "food" were increasing at the same rate.

    However over the past 50 years, we've also begun things like deforestation globally. As well over the past 50-60 years, it has been (and in some countries still is) a practice for companies to dump product both on land and in the sea.

    So not only are we removing the plants that would consume the greenhouse gases, but we are dumping things in the oceans which negatively affect microbial life that consumes them as well.

    So if you are doing things to remove the natural, egological factors that "scrub" the greenhouse gases from the ecosystem...what else is there to use them up as we increasingly produce them?

    It really is simple science. Why you don't comprehend it is beyond me.

    Anyways, go ahead and enjoy things while you have them...even if your kids won't get to.

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    PurpleSkys Moderator

    does indeed happen on its own...humans just happen to be fast tracking it ...show us YOUR proof....

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    maxwell edison

    Prove that something does not exist? Yea, right.

    No one has proved that it does.

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    AnsuGisalas

    You know, if someone tells you "A criminal may come and break into your mailbox and steal your identity", I think you might consider doing something about it, even if there's no proof that a criminal actually will do that.

    Sometimes it's prudent to make projections, even if projections are only ever proven right when not heeded.

    Remember the Y2K problem? A large number of people feels there never was a problem. It was a projection - it was heeded - and nobody has damage to show that heeding it was a necessity.
    I'd rather not find out if some projection about world-threatening disaster was "correct after all" - much better to do something, and let the skeptics keep their faith for eternity.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Well said. Also I like to think that, in reacting the Climate Change, we'll come closer to Climate Control.
    After all, right now they're also suggesting the Sun will enter a low-activity period, leading to a new "small ice age".
    Knowing exactly how we affect the climate can help us choose to affect it in the future, for our own good.

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    PurpleSkys Moderator

    i've been in the middle of this discussion before...i've given proof but have yet to see max back up his claims...Max...if you have nothing to prove, neither do the rest of us have to prove anything to you (although, some of us would like for you to "see the light")....we believe, you do not...

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    AnsuGisalas

    because I enjoy taking my braincells for a spin.
    I like being challenged, I like getting to stretch out once in a while...

    But I seem to get only a tease, with no follow-up.

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    AV .

    Why do we need experts to tell us that we're part of the problem? Its never good to pollute the atmosphere, the ocean or land. Period. Its pretty much a given that we are all destroying our environment and I don't need an expert to tell me that. We've been doing that for at least 50 years and there has to be a price to pay.

    Climate change is normal, yes, but the rate of change has accelerated because we all pollute. What bothers me is that our government is looking to profit off of climate change instead of fixing the problem. What should be a noble cause, has become revenue for them via Cap and Trade legislation.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123655590609066021.html

    We're all so busy debating the problem and deciding who is right, trying to legislate it, but we're not solving anything. We still all pollute.

    AV

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    Michael Jay

    the only thing we can do is to leave the planet, or stop doing the things that pollute.

    I do not see a way we can do that, cap and trade, a disaster.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    We can cut down the pollution dramatically.

    It just costs more to make whatever it was that we made by polluting.

    There have been numerous instances where we have changed our ways to cut down the amount of pollution that we create and it???s been done successfully.

    Of course Industry doesn't want to change as they see a loss of profit. But just because they don't want to change doesn't mean that we are incapable of doing things better.

    Col

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    Michael Jay

    even if it is a little less, the fact that more and more cars trucks planes and such keep coming on line, more manufacturing, more everything, there is no way we can really stop the pollution.

    So, with any luck we can cause our own mass extinction and thus save the earth.

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    AnsuGisalas

    MMCC is a tool.
    Nobody cares if it's correct or not.
    Only ones standing to gain from it being wiped off the table are the power elite of some countries surrounding the persian gulf...

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    maxwell edison

    As far as I'm concerned, the claim of MM GW/CC is being advanced by (other) power elites to further their own power and control. I find it very telling that ALL of the, so-called, solutions being proposed are socialist in nature. You're also naive about the viability of alternate energy solutions. If they were viable, free markets would chase them and embrace them.

    Moreover, the US is the Saudi Arabia of coal, and that's under attack as well. Which totally dispels your silly notion about the oil-rich Arab nations. Besides, we import more oil from Canada and Mexico than we do from them.

    I could go on.......

    The bottom line is this. The MM GW/CC claim is an attack on free markets and the freedom of movement. And it's a huge power grab (by power elites) - all based on an unproven theory, at best, or a huge scam at worst. I suspect the latter. Check that. I KNOW it's the latter.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Maybe your problem is that your forte History, is written with hindsight.
    As such, you may be overly mechanistic in your idea of power and the workings of the free market. The free market forces, as you picture them, are incapable of foresight - they'll always stick with what's working right now, never bothering to invest in what will be working in twenty years.
    Luckily you're wrong. However, corporations have to have an excuse to spurn immediate short-sighted gain. They have to have Curtain of Oz with which to distract their shareholders, sometimes. And CC fits the bill, so they have jumped at it. Look around, big companies are championing - not alternative energy - but rather the importance of Climate Change.

    Because it fits their plans. They know their Macchiavelli.

    Coal. You can't pour coal in your car. You can't pump it down a pipeline. It's not the money-making machine that oil is. Natural gas is a different matter, but the volatility makes it iffy.

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    maxwell edison

    Maybe your problem is that your forte History, is written with blinders. (forte history? WTF is that?) You and your Nordic perspective, the land of socialist democrats.

    As such, you may be overly mechanistic in your idea of power and the workings of the free market. The free market forces, unlike how you picture them, are indeed capable of foresight while accommodating current consumer demands. They DO INDEED invest in what will be working in twenty years. Most major business have R&D departments to do that very thing. Pharmaceutical companies spend decades researching and developing new drugs. I could go on.

    However, like all good socialist-democrats, you have to have an excuse to spurn free markets. They have to have a Curtain of Oz with which to distract their followers. And EVIL big business fits the bill, so they have jumped at it.

    Re: Coal. You can't pour coal in your car. You can't pump it down a pipeline. It's not the money-making machine that oil is. Natural gas is a different matter, but the volatility makes it iffy.

    But it's STILL under attack by the MM GW/CC crowd. And we have wind turbines popping up all over the place - subsidized wind turbines, of course. Because wind power is SO expensive - upwards of 35 cents per Kilowatt hour, versus 3 cents for coal power - that it can't stand (or spin) on it's own merit.

    Taxing carbon. Calling CO2 a pollutant. Carbon credits. Subsidizing nonviable energy. Its all a scam based on a lie.

    (Written in the manner it was to use the same tone, attitude, and assumptions towards you that you used towards me.)

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    AnsuGisalas

    Sorry about the tone, but if you notice, when we disagree, you don't often answer to my answers to you, and I do believe this is the first time you've made it to the next level after that.

    I'll give you that I'm too European to fully trust the grand benevolence of the market forces, nor their ineffable genius I tend to think they're shortsighted and greedy, except where a charismatic CEO has the trust of the Board.
    And yes, you do see these strange expensive turbines... just like you used to see strange expensive toilet seats in submarines; that's your political pork barrels for you, not a representation of what's the best of the new breed.

    It is a battle between the elites, you're right about that too.

    Coal and gas are not as attractive as oil, so they are being sacrificed for the cause. Better to save the coal resources for later, than to let "their" power elite buy out "our" power elite. After all, the coal is not going anywhere. A powerplant is easier and faster to rebuild or recommission than a billion cars. Once the cars phase to other fuels, the Oil Addiction is a thing of the past.
    To many of the big businesses driving the CC train, this is just a shoe-horn to get out of a check-mate situation waiting to happen.

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    Max

    AV .

    This is my opinion about global warming and climate change. In my lifetime, I can't remember such drastic changes in the weather as I've seen in the past few years and the effect on our environment. Hurricane Katrina, the Mississippi River floods, the Missouri River floods. Massive snowfall in the Northeast and snow in the Southeast. I could go on, but I think we can both agree, its caused by global warming/climate change. The video below was from January of this year, before the floods occurred in the US.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UalkAQyW7xs

    Much of the snowpack caused the flooding in the Missouri River systems.

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/28/midwest.flooding/

    Man has played a big part in global warming, in my opinion, but most of all, companies are to blame. If I take a ride on the NJ Turnpike around Linden or up near Secaucus in NJ. all I can see are companies spewing emissions into the air. Its eerie and a must-see if you ever want to experience first-hand why man contributes to global warming. At night, that stretch of highway looks surreal. Smokestacks spewing God knows what into the air. I look at that and wonder what companies in India or China are doing with their pollution and then I realize we are all flocked. After all, we are a global village.

    http://www.environmentnewjersey.org/in-the-news/global-warming/global-warming/n.j.-spews-key-pollutant-at-record-rate

    We're still debating climate change and global warming and deciding whether its manmade when we should be looking to establish a global policy on greenhouse gas emissions .If theres even a possibility that man might be causing this by doing certain things, than lets stop doing that now. We're heading for a cliff.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Whales-plankton-migrate-apf-2739949204.html?x=0&.v=1

    Our world has changed either way, like it or not.

    AV

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    AnsuGisalas

    The mention of your name is actually a homage to the massive threads you've whipped up in the past.

    Climate change I already adressed <a href=http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/103-344405>here</a>.
    You may have missed it.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Max may have been responsible for some big threads but he certainly was not responsible fo the Biggest Thread ever on TR.

    Just ask about The Evolution Lie to someone who is still sane.

    Even TR had to purge that Festering Monster from it's servers to get the site to work part way correctly several integrations ago.

    I believe some real saddest may have even kept a copy of that monster but I'm not one of them.

    And to be perfectly honest Max has always stuck to his guns and had the same opinion I don???t have to agree with him on it but he is nothing if not consistent.

    Col

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    AnsuGisalas

    I'm giving credit where due, here. :)
    Just because Max feels I'm just a spammer, undeserving of more than a reciprocation, doesn't mean it has to skew my view of him.

    Anything that can make people endure the eyestrain enough to actually post something is a good thing. Any time you're ready, Maxwell...

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    jck

    that i'm a PITA too...and, I don't mean the bread. :^0

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    AnsuGisalas

    We're not part of the in-crowd...
    Nor of The water cooler elite...
    Nor of The select few (one).

    Too bad we don't mind

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    JamesRL

    I don't think at all that he is elitist. He is wrapped up in ideas and principles.

    I don't want to presume to know what he is thinking, but I think he is probably doing what many of us have done from time to time.....that is to consciously refrain with arguments where no one is open to changing their mind.

    I decided long ago not to argue with Max about climate change. I don't see the point. I don't think anything I write will change his mind, unless perhaps if I change my career and become a climate scientist, and even then anything I write will be viewed skeptically. I don't mean that as a criticism. I mean that as a reality check.

    I've found that it pays not to get so wrapped up in hammer and tongs arguments here and on other forums, that have little point.

    Many posters who used to get involved in many of the mammoth threads are gone. We did enjoy arguing with each other, to a point. But at another later point, it becomes repetitive and boring, and not worth the effort. I think Max is being more discriminating about which threads he jumps into with both feet. I know his powers of argument are still there.

    I have in the past done something similar to what you've done, but with a little less glee. I admit I hoped to provoke him into posting, but I think less cynically than you have with this thread.

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    AnsuGisalas

    See, I really would have liked to do a Maxwellesque write-up of the "Impending Sea Doom" - thing. Like "what Max would do".
    But I don't have it in me. I'm more of a responder than an instigator.

    I do try to instigate, but only on an amateur basis. I don't have the gift.
    Glee, that I do have, but not much malice.
    Someone may have seen the h4x0r who came in earlier asking for exploit/payload advice.
    I did respond with glee, and admittedly, some malice. But only in reflection of his own malignancy. Still visible in <a href=http://www.techrepublic.com/search?t=4&o=1&tag=content;forum-selector>here</a>, right above What's it Called.
    What reads below the headline is my first response.

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    santeewelding

    Max has it, all right. I hand it to him. As I see it, though, when you open your gates and roll his big horse in, the innards prove empty of what Ultimately matters.

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    jck

    Thanks for thinking I'm "In"

    BTW, how's your hat fit nowadays with that swollen head of yours?

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    CharlieSpencer

    I think jdclyde had a copy. It's possible Jay exported it before deletion. I've found (body) parts of it in archives, but never the entire stitched-together monster. It survives only in legend, like the secret of cracking a password with a screwdriver and a bucket of water.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    Must ask JD for it. I have a copy of the 'other one'. Good freakin' reading. :^0

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    CharlieSpencer

    I found another reference that said neilb, not jdclyde, claimed to have it all in an HTML file.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Has it been pruned?

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    That is a very small part of the entire thing. Probably just the first few hours postings to it if the growth of that thing was anything to go by.

    The entire thing was over several thousand posts and was almost impossible to follow on the then current TR now it would be way beyond Impossible.

    Col

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    CharlieSpencer

    old growth forest were 'pruned'.

    I suspect that a 400-post limit was imposed on discussions transferred during some site reincarnation; possibly the most recent, possibly earlier.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    You are a ******* you know that dont you?

    I never wanted to see that Green Festering Monster ever again even in a Truncated form. :^0

    Col

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    Heavily pruned, and no 'Print/View All' to make it easy to copy and paste what's left for entertaining myself in the wee hours.

    Thanks, though, for digging that up.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Was it Tig2?
    Hasn't been around for a while, right?
    Hopefully only for aesthetic reasons...

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    At least, not the one I remember.

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    CharlieSpencer

    http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/geekend/all-time-top-19-too-hot-discussion-threads/43

    and

    http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/geekend/poll-which-embarrassing-discussion-thread-should-tr-erase/446

    at which time the count was 2657. One interesting item on that page is 'Unnecessary Discussion' #7 :-) Also note two posts lower down. In one, Max posted a link to a version with 1300+ posts. In another, member onbliss claims to have the entire discussion. His profile shows he hasn't been active in over a year.

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    seanferd

    I dunno, man... the initials.

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    jck

    but , I'm starting to wish for the Yellowstone supervolcano to erupt anytime it wishes.

    I'm far enough SW now that the ash cloud will **** north of me, and close enough to Mexico I can migrate south for the global temp drops. :)

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    seanferd

    That could be painful in the extreme.

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    jck

    At least the ski slopes would be clear...in about 30 years.

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    CharlieSpencer

    What would Earnhardt do?

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    get them loose or spinning, then drive under them for the win!!
    <{;-)

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    seanferd

    Earnhardt would do a PIT maneuver.

    Go Earnhardt!

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    AnsuGisalas

    I.e. "Dubya's Weapons of Mass Destruction"...
    So that's where that bastidge Sadam dumped his stuff... and now it's killing the oceans!
    Dubya was right after all...

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Weapons of Mass Destruction

    or

    Words of Mass Deception?

    I know both fit but I???m not sure what was the original meaning.

    Col

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    AnsuGisalas

    of Mind Dissolution

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    seanferd

    "What Weapons of Mass Destruction?"

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    AnsuGisalas

    Wet Willy of Mass Destruction

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    maxwell edison

    That's why I did it! (It hit at least 2400, though, didn't it?)

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    I know it all but killed the TR servers.

    That was a monster that almost wrecked TR all together.

    And Jay must have lied to me as he insisted that all traces of it had been removed from their Servers.

    Col

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    CharlieSpencer

    A couple of people have added comments to it today, mostly old-timers and off-topic, but it isn't showing up on either the Discussions or Water Cooler pages.

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    AnsuGisalas

    We could start giving out + votes, there, to see if we can raise up the derelict by filling it with ping pong balls.

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    jck

    Max needs reading material to actually learn how they do it.
    http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/howdo.html

    Oh my gosh! A global warming skeptic couldn't change his mind, could he?
    http://www.adventure-journal.com/2011/04/study-by-global-warming-skeptic-shows-global-warming/

    (BTW...that last research project...25% funded by the Koch brothers...global warming skeptics....)

    Proof that India is causing global warming, cause we Americans would NEVER do anything wrong!
    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1890646,00.html

    Yay me! I am so helpful

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    seanferd

    to the Anthropocene.

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    AnsuGisalas

    as "anthrobscene"...

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    seanferd

    More so poetic than geologic.

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    PurpleSkys Moderator

    i needed a little more :)

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    jck

    I just need some mental help...and to make it through November.

    Then, the world will be okay.

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    jck

    I need it. 4 more weeks, a couple of attorney visits, one hearing, a deposition, and then a waiting period...and I'll be free of burdens.

    Anyways...Thank you. :)

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    jp85257

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-IJxTd8dCo

    Whenever you hear the word "December", just replace it with "November" and you'll make it. :-)

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    santeewelding

    I stopped, took the time, and listened.

    Maybe replace "November" with, "this". Better, make whatever it is a thing entirely apart from yourself, remaining secure in that self.

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    PurpleSkys Moderator

    I watched a documentary on this about a year ago, it's down right scary. And I've heard they are looking at doing it around here... http://www.gaslandthemovie.com/whats-fracking
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing When we are doing stuff like this, is it any wonder the environment is all messed up.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Was a Yank Show on Drillers who where competing to sink a well. It was for FRACKing Purposes AKA Hydraulic Fracturing.

    While Gaslands was OK it left a lot out and was biassed somewhat.

    But in that Show they would sink a well where they wanted it for access purposes and not worry about underground water. Apparently provided that they do not have a water flow of over 100 Gallons per Hour they can still use that well to Frack the underground Coal Seam and the crap that they pour down the well to Fracture the Coal is ok to mix with the Artesian Water.

    I just wouldn???t ever want something like that happening near where I live and if I relied on Subterranean water I would start drinking and washing in something else. The crap that they pump into the ground is way too dangerous to have anywhere near any water used by humans in any form.

    They are effectively poisoning the Food Chain and while the American Authorities do not investigate these Gas Wells the Industry can continue to claim that there have been no proven cases where one of their wells has contaminated the Ground Water. The Industry claims are nonsensical to me and are exactly what I would expect a Government Agency to say who is covering up the crap that they have allowed to happen.

    You know what they say there are Lies, Bloody Lies and Statistics.

    The one thing that came through strongly in Gaslands was the way that Statistics where being used to cover the Uninvestigated Facts of what is actually happening.

    Here there are currently Test Wells for this out west and they have proved that the Industry here is no better than in other parts of the world by failing to report spills or other problems that have occurred and there have been documented cases of Contamination in at least 1 occasion. I???m not actually sure that I would trust the Government to Properly Regulate this Industry here as they are dependant on the Money they expect to get from it and are no better than the Street Side Junkie hanging out for their next fix.

    Only so here it???s the Government who are hanging out for the money that want from this industry.

    At other times with Pokies they have a 40% incidence of Problem Gambling on Pokies and when some small Legislation is Introduced to try to curb this massive amount of Money and damage done to so many people the places who own the Pokies are complaining that their income is going to drop 40%.

    They are no better than the Pusher down the street waiting for you to get more money to feed your habit and they are rubbing their hands with glee waiting to take your Money.

    Of course the State Governments are so hooked on the taxes they get from Pokies they don???t want to see the Boat Rocked either.

    I suppose it all comes down to the old saying never get between a Politician and Tax Payers Money.

    Col

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    0 Votes

    A few people are trying to attack a person for his knowledge on here instead of coming up with an answer of their own.
    Is this foreplay or just bitterness?
    If you dislike a person why keep up the pressure?
    Coming up with some solutions to the worlds problem(s) is the correct direction of doing things instead of trying to to trip someone up.

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    jp85257

    Look no further than "Rules for Radicals":

    "The threat is generally more terrifying than the thing itself."

    "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also, it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage."

    "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it."

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    AnsuGisalas

    Noone's attacking anyone.
    The OP was a tribute to the good old times with Maxwell the Master Instigator.
    All the rest is just friendly brawling, don't take it so seriously.
    Maxwell is the only one who claims to hold ill will, though even that is dubious.

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    santeewelding

    When you wish to combine "no" and "one", write around it. If, in spite of your best effort -- like, in cases of lethal encounter: failing not to be there -- make the best of it, like avoiding -- not being there -- complications of the possessive ("Noone's" -- gawd, what an ********). In fact, encountering the possessive, figure out some other way to do it. How I hate the possessive. Stop in your tracks. If you have to, resort to existential poesy in order to get around it.

    As to the content of your soft rebuke, thank you for saving me the trouble. I am afraid I would have been sharper with our dear friend, Pekonet.

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    AnsuGisalas

    "Noone's" that is, now that I see it from outside my train of thought.
    Tangling contractions with possessives - it reminds me of what DJs call a train-wreck: when they mix from one track to another, and the beats of the two tracks disharmoniously clash during the transition. They beat themselves and each other up about that, too.

    Thanks, and you're welcome.

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    jck

    Those who don't want change because it cramps their "lifestyle" just say my facts are wrong without proof.

    Those who are too lazy to do something rather than their normal activities (or inactivities) still do nothing.

    A lot of people seem to have the same attitude toward environmental care as they do voting.

    "Oh, I am just one person. I can't make a difference."

    Throwing a plastic bottle in a recycle bin instead of a waste bin takes little, if any, extra effort.

    Walking 2-3 blocks to the store, rather than driving, reduces emissions into the atmosphere.

    Opening blinds/shades and using natural sunlight for indoor activities, rather than electrical lighting, reduces power generation requirements and reduces the burning of fossil fuels.

    It's little things you can do to help, and most of them are free...and in some cases (like recycling aluminum) it puts money back in your pocket.

    But, so many people want no inconvenience and all the benefits they can have without thinking.

    So, I won't preach anymore to folks. I've given up on the majority of people in my country simply because they are too into themselves at the expense of others and the environment.

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    jp85257

    You can do all of the things you mention and still not believe in the GW claims.

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    AnsuGisalas

    That prudence coincides with the demands of this big bad wolf.

    The saddest thing about the pursuit of convenience so enthroned in our collective culture is, that you really can't feel it.
    If you get a bit more convenience today, then that is tomorrow's baseline.
    Anything less than that will now feel like a drag.
    Where does that lead?

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    jck

    Lack of common sense has been overridden by gluttony and selfishness. There are people who think it's their right to have whatever they can get...even if it is bad for everyone else.

    And usually, the ones who participate in it end up being the biggest moral watchdogs around.

    Makes me wish I had been born 100 years earlier. It'd be easier to deal with folks like that.

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    AV .

    We are a free country. Some people think that means they're free to pollute. Free to do whatever they want, regardless of who or what it hurts. If you want to find the biggest offenders, follow the money and, yes, look at the moral watchdogs.

    I wouldn't want to be born 100 years earlier. I wouldn't have even been able to vote! Back then though, people had to live with less. They had better values than we do today.

    AV

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    AnsuGisalas

    they had less opportunities to grow accustomed to wastefulness.

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    AV .

    So what you're saying is man didn't have real values back then either, they just didn't have the opportunities. I tend to idealize the olden days, but you're probably right. Given the opportunity, they'd be just as decadent as we are today.

    AV

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    AV .

    We're a long way off from the idea of America, though. I don't know if we can ever get it back.

    AV

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    AV .

    "Is this foreplay or just bitterness?"


    Its probably a little of both, depending on who you're talking about. Max is a person with very strong opinions on most subjects. I find him to be very challenging, personally, but he might be too strong for some people here, so we have a little drama sometimes. TR has always been like this and I think its all good. Open discussion.

    Okay, maybe we don't always solve world problems, but you have to understand that there are all different kinds of personalities here, so this is what you get.

    AV

    edited: added PT's quote

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Of doing anything on a Planetary scale it must be a Natural Event.

    So we shouldn't worry about it or the Scientists involved are in the pay of Others and are here to promote this.

    Col

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    AnsuGisalas

    because we're completely impotent in respect to stopping it.

    But learning to like soy is a good idea. If this goes down, I predict meat will got through the roof.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse. And everything in the sea died."
    Revelation 16:3

    No surprise.

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    jck

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    AnsuGisalas

    It's not like the egg-heads could dream it up on their own.
    The same system which transports nutrients around, and oxygenates the waters... apparently it can go (=has gone before) into a cascade which deoxygenates the whole thing. Ocean-wide cess-pool. It does it all by itself (or with the help of micro-organisms).

    Of course, it always gets better again... just takes a while.
    Only a million years or so.

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    maxwell edison

    Re:..... the panel of experts "found firm evidence" that the effects of climate change, coupled with other human-induced impacts such as overfishing and nutrient run-off from farming, have already caused a dramatic decline in ocean health.

    However, there is no firm evidence - or even flimsy evidence - that human activity is causing, or otherwise affecting, climate change.

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    santeewelding

    Haul out the biggest gun.

    For how many years (all my life) have we heard how much we don't know about the oceans? Only recently, for instance, the Craig Venter (sp?) survey of micro-organism DNA (we apparently can't begin to count them). Or, latest microwave ranging data from orbit about the configuration and distribution of Arctic pack ice; data never available before now and not yet assimulated.

    Now, we learn to the contrary. They're on top of the oceans, these people, are they?

    I came across the story earlier today. That's what I thought.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    Yet, each pronouncement we make in relation to what 'we' know, gets turned on its head in a year, or three, or ten...

    'We' don't know diddly.

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    AnsuGisalas

    trying to guess what it's doing.
    They're comparing it to the back-log of evidence of what it's done before (trias-perm), and when they think they see a pattern, they feel the cold iron grip of panic.

    A bit like someone strapped to the front of a big truck doing 100 hm/h on a narrow dirt road through dense forest.

    Yes, they can't see what's going on, but they sure as **** don't like where it could go.

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    santeewelding

    Fastened the straps?

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    AnsuGisalas

    may be we can't prove it yet, but we have reason to think it has to do with how it is that you are.

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    santeewelding

    Stage left.

    In tattered grace.

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    maxwell edison

    The MM GW/CC crowd, that is.

    They have so much personal baggage invested in the MM GW/CC scam that they will never admit they've been duped all along. There's much more evidence to support the assertion that they've been duped than there ever was to support the bogus claim in the first place.

    The MM GW/CC believers are fools - pure and simple.

    And Ansu apparently thinks he's being clever. But in reality, he's just one of the duped fools.

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    santeewelding

    Do not take Ansu for a fool.

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    AnsuGisalas

    What can you possibly know about what I appear to think?
    There's more evidence to you not knowing, than there ever was to support that bogus claim you made :)

    That's what you get when you will not engage head on.
    Flung dung.

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    santeewelding

    Gets as much attention from me as does acclamation of sanity, in another TR thread.

    Step with utter care. Else, I am all over your young ***.

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    AnsuGisalas

    "Proof Positive:
    Wanted, Dead or Alive!"

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    jck

    sounded like sexual harassment. :^0

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    jck

    Just as you say they have no proof that it is...

    You have none that it isn't...

    You're just as guilty as those you accuse.

    You're just as duped...congrats.

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    maxwell edison

    Climate change and/or global warming and/or global cooling happens as a matter of nature. We can't stop it from happening. To expect someone to prove that human activity is causing the change to occur any differently is one of the most intellectually dishonest things you could possibly ask. That's a negative impossible to prove.

    There IS plenty of evidence, however, that the ones making such claims HAVE manipulated, misinformed, lied, made omissions, made-up stuff, etc. And over the past twenty five years, NONE of their claims or predictions have come true. NONE of them.

    But we've had this discussion before. I don't expect you'll change your mind.

    Too many people have worshiped at the altar of global warming for too long; and others have switched denominations to worship at the altar of climate change. Regardless of their denomination of choice, both are 100 percent faith based. Absolutely NO evidence to support either claim.

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    jck

    You propose their research is poppycock. Yet, you can't disprove their research. Hence, you can not prove that their theory of cause is wrong.

    So, I'll go paragraph by paragraph (as I've done for years) and directly address you...since you seem to make a stink when people don't step up and do as you wish.

    "Climate change and/or global warming and/or global cooling happens as a matter of nature. We can't stop it from happening. To expect someone to prove that human activity is causing the change to occur any differently is one of the most intellectually dishonest things you could possibly ask. That's a negative impossible to prove."

    Yes, it absolutely happens. However, it happens in regular, *provable* scientific cycles and within certain tolerances.

    One example: Polar ice sheets. You have 100,000s of years of ice that stores both a) water whose content can be tested, and b) atmospheric gases at the poles trapped within the frozen crystals.

    Now, are you saying that all the research done on ice cores from dozens of locations from both poles that shows greenhouse gas content is now higher than ever within a window of about **** years...is all poppycock?

    Secondly, would you disbelieve that greenhouse gases trap heat in the atmosphere...and that each one has a lifetime that it stays within the atmosphere when released before breaking down?

    "There IS plenty of evidence, however, that the ones making such claims HAVE manipulated, misinformed, lied, made omissions, made-up stuff, etc. And over the past twenty five years, NONE of their claims or predictions have come true. NONE of them. "

    There's a FEW instances of things being manipulated or omitted. However, you refuse to acknowledge all the legitimate, complete, thorough research that points to the same conclusion.

    And, that is because you are indeed as biased as those whom you would claim are wrong and you call everything negative about their truthfulness but a liar.

    Hence, you believe the entire establishment is creating falsehoods just because a few have done shoddy or misleading work.

    Guess I should follow the same concept of thought, and think everyone who lives in your state is arrogant and self-righteous and assumes their belief is the best?

    "But we've had this discussion before. I don't expect you'll change your mind."

    As long as you provide no conclusive proof that you are right...yes, you won't change my mind.

    I'll stick with believing 1000s of PhDs doing their research scientifically who are experts in their field, rather than you who thinks he's smarter than all of them.

    "Too many people have worshiped at the altar of global warming for too long; and others have switched denominations to worship at the altar of climate change. Regardless of their denomination of choice, both are 100 percent faith based. Absolutely NO evidence to support either claim."

    Well, I worship at no such altar. I just know what makes sense.

    I once tried to give you a very simple, grade school example of why global warming would occur involving a pot with a pinhole in it, and someone pouring water into it.

    The greenhouse gas emissions increasing as they have since the beginning of the industrial revolution would not be a concern if the microbes and plant life with use them as "food" were increasing at the same rate.

    However over the past 50 years, we've also begun things like deforestation globally. As well over the past 50-60 years, it has been (and in some countries still is) a practice for companies to dump product both on land and in the sea.

    So not only are we removing the plants that would consume the greenhouse gases, but we are dumping things in the oceans which negatively affect microbial life that consumes them as well.

    So if you are doing things to remove the natural, egological factors that "scrub" the greenhouse gases from the ecosystem...what else is there to use them up as we increasingly produce them?

    It really is simple science. Why you don't comprehend it is beyond me.

    Anyways, go ahead and enjoy things while you have them...even if your kids won't get to.

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    PurpleSkys Moderator

    does indeed happen on its own...humans just happen to be fast tracking it ...show us YOUR proof....

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    maxwell edison

    Prove that something does not exist? Yea, right.

    No one has proved that it does.

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    AnsuGisalas

    You know, if someone tells you "A criminal may come and break into your mailbox and steal your identity", I think you might consider doing something about it, even if there's no proof that a criminal actually will do that.

    Sometimes it's prudent to make projections, even if projections are only ever proven right when not heeded.

    Remember the Y2K problem? A large number of people feels there never was a problem. It was a projection - it was heeded - and nobody has damage to show that heeding it was a necessity.
    I'd rather not find out if some projection about world-threatening disaster was "correct after all" - much better to do something, and let the skeptics keep their faith for eternity.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Well said. Also I like to think that, in reacting the Climate Change, we'll come closer to Climate Control.
    After all, right now they're also suggesting the Sun will enter a low-activity period, leading to a new "small ice age".
    Knowing exactly how we affect the climate can help us choose to affect it in the future, for our own good.

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    PurpleSkys Moderator

    i've been in the middle of this discussion before...i've given proof but have yet to see max back up his claims...Max...if you have nothing to prove, neither do the rest of us have to prove anything to you (although, some of us would like for you to "see the light")....we believe, you do not...

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    AnsuGisalas

    because I enjoy taking my braincells for a spin.
    I like being challenged, I like getting to stretch out once in a while...

    But I seem to get only a tease, with no follow-up.

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    AV .

    Why do we need experts to tell us that we're part of the problem? Its never good to pollute the atmosphere, the ocean or land. Period. Its pretty much a given that we are all destroying our environment and I don't need an expert to tell me that. We've been doing that for at least 50 years and there has to be a price to pay.

    Climate change is normal, yes, but the rate of change has accelerated because we all pollute. What bothers me is that our government is looking to profit off of climate change instead of fixing the problem. What should be a noble cause, has become revenue for them via Cap and Trade legislation.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123655590609066021.html

    We're all so busy debating the problem and deciding who is right, trying to legislate it, but we're not solving anything. We still all pollute.

    AV

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    Michael Jay

    the only thing we can do is to leave the planet, or stop doing the things that pollute.

    I do not see a way we can do that, cap and trade, a disaster.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    We can cut down the pollution dramatically.

    It just costs more to make whatever it was that we made by polluting.

    There have been numerous instances where we have changed our ways to cut down the amount of pollution that we create and it???s been done successfully.

    Of course Industry doesn't want to change as they see a loss of profit. But just because they don't want to change doesn't mean that we are incapable of doing things better.

    Col

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    Michael Jay

    even if it is a little less, the fact that more and more cars trucks planes and such keep coming on line, more manufacturing, more everything, there is no way we can really stop the pollution.

    So, with any luck we can cause our own mass extinction and thus save the earth.

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    AnsuGisalas

    MMCC is a tool.
    Nobody cares if it's correct or not.
    Only ones standing to gain from it being wiped off the table are the power elite of some countries surrounding the persian gulf...

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    maxwell edison

    As far as I'm concerned, the claim of MM GW/CC is being advanced by (other) power elites to further their own power and control. I find it very telling that ALL of the, so-called, solutions being proposed are socialist in nature. You're also naive about the viability of alternate energy solutions. If they were viable, free markets would chase them and embrace them.

    Moreover, the US is the Saudi Arabia of coal, and that's under attack as well. Which totally dispels your silly notion about the oil-rich Arab nations. Besides, we import more oil from Canada and Mexico than we do from them.

    I could go on.......

    The bottom line is this. The MM GW/CC claim is an attack on free markets and the freedom of movement. And it's a huge power grab (by power elites) - all based on an unproven theory, at best, or a huge scam at worst. I suspect the latter. Check that. I KNOW it's the latter.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Maybe your problem is that your forte History, is written with hindsight.
    As such, you may be overly mechanistic in your idea of power and the workings of the free market. The free market forces, as you picture them, are incapable of foresight - they'll always stick with what's working right now, never bothering to invest in what will be working in twenty years.
    Luckily you're wrong. However, corporations have to have an excuse to spurn immediate short-sighted gain. They have to have Curtain of Oz with which to distract their shareholders, sometimes. And CC fits the bill, so they have jumped at it. Look around, big companies are championing - not alternative energy - but rather the importance of Climate Change.

    Because it fits their plans. They know their Macchiavelli.

    Coal. You can't pour coal in your car. You can't pump it down a pipeline. It's not the money-making machine that oil is. Natural gas is a different matter, but the volatility makes it iffy.

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    maxwell edison

    Maybe your problem is that your forte History, is written with blinders. (forte history? WTF is that?) You and your Nordic perspective, the land of socialist democrats.

    As such, you may be overly mechanistic in your idea of power and the workings of the free market. The free market forces, unlike how you picture them, are indeed capable of foresight while accommodating current consumer demands. They DO INDEED invest in what will be working in twenty years. Most major business have R&D departments to do that very thing. Pharmaceutical companies spend decades researching and developing new drugs. I could go on.

    However, like all good socialist-democrats, you have to have an excuse to spurn free markets. They have to have a Curtain of Oz with which to distract their followers. And EVIL big business fits the bill, so they have jumped at it.

    Re: Coal. You can't pour coal in your car. You can't pump it down a pipeline. It's not the money-making machine that oil is. Natural gas is a different matter, but the volatility makes it iffy.

    But it's STILL under attack by the MM GW/CC crowd. And we have wind turbines popping up all over the place - subsidized wind turbines, of course. Because wind power is SO expensive - upwards of 35 cents per Kilowatt hour, versus 3 cents for coal power - that it can't stand (or spin) on it's own merit.

    Taxing carbon. Calling CO2 a pollutant. Carbon credits. Subsidizing nonviable energy. Its all a scam based on a lie.

    (Written in the manner it was to use the same tone, attitude, and assumptions towards you that you used towards me.)

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    AnsuGisalas

    Sorry about the tone, but if you notice, when we disagree, you don't often answer to my answers to you, and I do believe this is the first time you've made it to the next level after that.

    I'll give you that I'm too European to fully trust the grand benevolence of the market forces, nor their ineffable genius I tend to think they're shortsighted and greedy, except where a charismatic CEO has the trust of the Board.
    And yes, you do see these strange expensive turbines... just like you used to see strange expensive toilet seats in submarines; that's your political pork barrels for you, not a representation of what's the best of the new breed.

    It is a battle between the elites, you're right about that too.

    Coal and gas are not as attractive as oil, so they are being sacrificed for the cause. Better to save the coal resources for later, than to let "their" power elite buy out "our" power elite. After all, the coal is not going anywhere. A powerplant is easier and faster to rebuild or recommission than a billion cars. Once the cars phase to other fuels, the Oil Addiction is a thing of the past.
    To many of the big businesses driving the CC train, this is just a shoe-horn to get out of a check-mate situation waiting to happen.

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    Max

    AV .

    This is my opinion about global warming and climate change. In my lifetime, I can't remember such drastic changes in the weather as I've seen in the past few years and the effect on our environment. Hurricane Katrina, the Mississippi River floods, the Missouri River floods. Massive snowfall in the Northeast and snow in the Southeast. I could go on, but I think we can both agree, its caused by global warming/climate change. The video below was from January of this year, before the floods occurred in the US.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UalkAQyW7xs

    Much of the snowpack caused the flooding in the Missouri River systems.

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/28/midwest.flooding/

    Man has played a big part in global warming, in my opinion, but most of all, companies are to blame. If I take a ride on the NJ Turnpike around Linden or up near Secaucus in NJ. all I can see are companies spewing emissions into the air. Its eerie and a must-see if you ever want to experience first-hand why man contributes to global warming. At night, that stretch of highway looks surreal. Smokestacks spewing God knows what into the air. I look at that and wonder what companies in India or China are doing with their pollution and then I realize we are all flocked. After all, we are a global village.

    http://www.environmentnewjersey.org/in-the-news/global-warming/global-warming/n.j.-spews-key-pollutant-at-record-rate

    We're still debating climate change and global warming and deciding whether its manmade when we should be looking to establish a global policy on greenhouse gas emissions .If theres even a possibility that man might be causing this by doing certain things, than lets stop doing that now. We're heading for a cliff.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Whales-plankton-migrate-apf-2739949204.html?x=0&.v=1

    Our world has changed either way, like it or not.

    AV

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    AnsuGisalas

    The mention of your name is actually a homage to the massive threads you've whipped up in the past.

    Climate change I already adressed <a href=http://www.techrepublic.com/forum/discussions/103-344405>here</a>.
    You may have missed it.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Max may have been responsible for some big threads but he certainly was not responsible fo the Biggest Thread ever on TR.

    Just ask about The Evolution Lie to someone who is still sane.

    Even TR had to purge that Festering Monster from it's servers to get the site to work part way correctly several integrations ago.

    I believe some real saddest may have even kept a copy of that monster but I'm not one of them.

    And to be perfectly honest Max has always stuck to his guns and had the same opinion I don???t have to agree with him on it but he is nothing if not consistent.

    Col

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    AnsuGisalas

    I'm giving credit where due, here. :)
    Just because Max feels I'm just a spammer, undeserving of more than a reciprocation, doesn't mean it has to skew my view of him.

    Anything that can make people endure the eyestrain enough to actually post something is a good thing. Any time you're ready, Maxwell...

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    jck

    that i'm a PITA too...and, I don't mean the bread. :^0

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    AnsuGisalas

    We're not part of the in-crowd...
    Nor of The water cooler elite...
    Nor of The select few (one).

    Too bad we don't mind

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    JamesRL

    I don't think at all that he is elitist. He is wrapped up in ideas and principles.

    I don't want to presume to know what he is thinking, but I think he is probably doing what many of us have done from time to time.....that is to consciously refrain with arguments where no one is open to changing their mind.

    I decided long ago not to argue with Max about climate change. I don't see the point. I don't think anything I write will change his mind, unless perhaps if I change my career and become a climate scientist, and even then anything I write will be viewed skeptically. I don't mean that as a criticism. I mean that as a reality check.

    I've found that it pays not to get so wrapped up in hammer and tongs arguments here and on other forums, that have little point.

    Many posters who used to get involved in many of the mammoth threads are gone. We did enjoy arguing with each other, to a point. But at another later point, it becomes repetitive and boring, and not worth the effort. I think Max is being more discriminating about which threads he jumps into with both feet. I know his powers of argument are still there.

    I have in the past done something similar to what you've done, but with a little less glee. I admit I hoped to provoke him into posting, but I think less cynically than you have with this thread.

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    AnsuGisalas

    See, I really would have liked to do a Maxwellesque write-up of the "Impending Sea Doom" - thing. Like "what Max would do".
    But I don't have it in me. I'm more of a responder than an instigator.

    I do try to instigate, but only on an amateur basis. I don't have the gift.
    Glee, that I do have, but not much malice.
    Someone may have seen the h4x0r who came in earlier asking for exploit/payload advice.
    I did respond with glee, and admittedly, some malice. But only in reflection of his own malignancy. Still visible in <a href=http://www.techrepublic.com/search?t=4&o=1&tag=content;forum-selector>here</a>, right above What's it Called.
    What reads below the headline is my first response.

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    santeewelding

    Max has it, all right. I hand it to him. As I see it, though, when you open your gates and roll his big horse in, the innards prove empty of what Ultimately matters.

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    jck

    Thanks for thinking I'm "In"

    BTW, how's your hat fit nowadays with that swollen head of yours?

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    CharlieSpencer

    I think jdclyde had a copy. It's possible Jay exported it before deletion. I've found (body) parts of it in archives, but never the entire stitched-together monster. It survives only in legend, like the secret of cracking a password with a screwdriver and a bucket of water.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    Must ask JD for it. I have a copy of the 'other one'. Good freakin' reading. :^0

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    CharlieSpencer

    I found another reference that said neilb, not jdclyde, claimed to have it all in an HTML file.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Has it been pruned?

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    That is a very small part of the entire thing. Probably just the first few hours postings to it if the growth of that thing was anything to go by.

    The entire thing was over several thousand posts and was almost impossible to follow on the then current TR now it would be way beyond Impossible.

    Col

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    CharlieSpencer

    old growth forest were 'pruned'.

    I suspect that a 400-post limit was imposed on discussions transferred during some site reincarnation; possibly the most recent, possibly earlier.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    You are a ******* you know that dont you?

    I never wanted to see that Green Festering Monster ever again even in a Truncated form. :^0

    Col

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    Heavily pruned, and no 'Print/View All' to make it easy to copy and paste what's left for entertaining myself in the wee hours.

    Thanks, though, for digging that up.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Was it Tig2?
    Hasn't been around for a while, right?
    Hopefully only for aesthetic reasons...

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    NickNielsen Moderator

    At least, not the one I remember.

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    CharlieSpencer

    http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/geekend/all-time-top-19-too-hot-discussion-threads/43

    and

    http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/geekend/poll-which-embarrassing-discussion-thread-should-tr-erase/446

    at which time the count was 2657. One interesting item on that page is 'Unnecessary Discussion' #7 :-) Also note two posts lower down. In one, Max posted a link to a version with 1300+ posts. In another, member onbliss claims to have the entire discussion. His profile shows he hasn't been active in over a year.

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    seanferd

    I dunno, man... the initials.

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    jck

    but , I'm starting to wish for the Yellowstone supervolcano to erupt anytime it wishes.

    I'm far enough SW now that the ash cloud will **** north of me, and close enough to Mexico I can migrate south for the global temp drops. :)

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    seanferd

    That could be painful in the extreme.

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    jck

    At least the ski slopes would be clear...in about 30 years.

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    CharlieSpencer

    What would Earnhardt do?

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    get them loose or spinning, then drive under them for the win!!
    <{;-)

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    seanferd

    Earnhardt would do a PIT maneuver.

    Go Earnhardt!

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    AnsuGisalas

    I.e. "Dubya's Weapons of Mass Destruction"...
    So that's where that bastidge Sadam dumped his stuff... and now it's killing the oceans!
    Dubya was right after all...

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Weapons of Mass Destruction

    or

    Words of Mass Deception?

    I know both fit but I???m not sure what was the original meaning.

    Col

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    AnsuGisalas

    of Mind Dissolution

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    seanferd

    "What Weapons of Mass Destruction?"

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    AnsuGisalas

    Wet Willy of Mass Destruction

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    maxwell edison

    That's why I did it! (It hit at least 2400, though, didn't it?)

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    I know it all but killed the TR servers.

    That was a monster that almost wrecked TR all together.

    And Jay must have lied to me as he insisted that all traces of it had been removed from their Servers.

    Col

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    CharlieSpencer

    A couple of people have added comments to it today, mostly old-timers and off-topic, but it isn't showing up on either the Discussions or Water Cooler pages.

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    AnsuGisalas

    We could start giving out + votes, there, to see if we can raise up the derelict by filling it with ping pong balls.

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    jck

    Max needs reading material to actually learn how they do it.
    http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/howdo.html

    Oh my gosh! A global warming skeptic couldn't change his mind, could he?
    http://www.adventure-journal.com/2011/04/study-by-global-warming-skeptic-shows-global-warming/

    (BTW...that last research project...25% funded by the Koch brothers...global warming skeptics....)

    Proof that India is causing global warming, cause we Americans would NEVER do anything wrong!
    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1890646,00.html

    Yay me! I am so helpful

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    seanferd

    to the Anthropocene.

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    AnsuGisalas

    as "anthrobscene"...

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    seanferd

    More so poetic than geologic.

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    PurpleSkys Moderator

    i needed a little more :)

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    jck

    I just need some mental help...and to make it through November.

    Then, the world will be okay.

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    jck

    I need it. 4 more weeks, a couple of attorney visits, one hearing, a deposition, and then a waiting period...and I'll be free of burdens.

    Anyways...Thank you. :)

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    jp85257

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-IJxTd8dCo

    Whenever you hear the word "December", just replace it with "November" and you'll make it. :-)

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    santeewelding

    I stopped, took the time, and listened.

    Maybe replace "November" with, "this". Better, make whatever it is a thing entirely apart from yourself, remaining secure in that self.

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    PurpleSkys Moderator

    I watched a documentary on this about a year ago, it's down right scary. And I've heard they are looking at doing it around here... http://www.gaslandthemovie.com/whats-fracking
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing When we are doing stuff like this, is it any wonder the environment is all messed up.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Was a Yank Show on Drillers who where competing to sink a well. It was for FRACKing Purposes AKA Hydraulic Fracturing.

    While Gaslands was OK it left a lot out and was biassed somewhat.

    But in that Show they would sink a well where they wanted it for access purposes and not worry about underground water. Apparently provided that they do not have a water flow of over 100 Gallons per Hour they can still use that well to Frack the underground Coal Seam and the crap that they pour down the well to Fracture the Coal is ok to mix with the Artesian Water.

    I just wouldn???t ever want something like that happening near where I live and if I relied on Subterranean water I would start drinking and washing in something else. The crap that they pump into the ground is way too dangerous to have anywhere near any water used by humans in any form.

    They are effectively poisoning the Food Chain and while the American Authorities do not investigate these Gas Wells the Industry can continue to claim that there have been no proven cases where one of their wells has contaminated the Ground Water. The Industry claims are nonsensical to me and are exactly what I would expect a Government Agency to say who is covering up the crap that they have allowed to happen.

    You know what they say there are Lies, Bloody Lies and Statistics.

    The one thing that came through strongly in Gaslands was the way that Statistics where being used to cover the Uninvestigated Facts of what is actually happening.

    Here there are currently Test Wells for this out west and they have proved that the Industry here is no better than in other parts of the world by failing to report spills or other problems that have occurred and there have been documented cases of Contamination in at least 1 occasion. I???m not actually sure that I would trust the Government to Properly Regulate this Industry here as they are dependant on the Money they expect to get from it and are no better than the Street Side Junkie hanging out for their next fix.

    Only so here it???s the Government who are hanging out for the money that want from this industry.

    At other times with Pokies they have a 40% incidence of Problem Gambling on Pokies and when some small Legislation is Introduced to try to curb this massive amount of Money and damage done to so many people the places who own the Pokies are complaining that their income is going to drop 40%.

    They are no better than the Pusher down the street waiting for you to get more money to feed your habit and they are rubbing their hands with glee waiting to take your Money.

    Of course the State Governments are so hooked on the taxes they get from Pokies they don???t want to see the Boat Rocked either.

    I suppose it all comes down to the old saying never get between a Politician and Tax Payers Money.

    Col

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    A few people are trying to attack a person for his knowledge on here instead of coming up with an answer of their own.
    Is this foreplay or just bitterness?
    If you dislike a person why keep up the pressure?
    Coming up with some solutions to the worlds problem(s) is the correct direction of doing things instead of trying to to trip someone up.

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    jp85257

    Look no further than "Rules for Radicals":

    "The threat is generally more terrifying than the thing itself."

    "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also, it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage."

    "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it."

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    AnsuGisalas

    Noone's attacking anyone.
    The OP was a tribute to the good old times with Maxwell the Master Instigator.
    All the rest is just friendly brawling, don't take it so seriously.
    Maxwell is the only one who claims to hold ill will, though even that is dubious.

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    santeewelding

    When you wish to combine "no" and "one", write around it. If, in spite of your best effort -- like, in cases of lethal encounter: failing not to be there -- make the best of it, like avoiding -- not being there -- complications of the possessive ("Noone's" -- gawd, what an ********). In fact, encountering the possessive, figure out some other way to do it. How I hate the possessive. Stop in your tracks. If you have to, resort to existential poesy in order to get around it.

    As to the content of your soft rebuke, thank you for saving me the trouble. I am afraid I would have been sharper with our dear friend, Pekonet.

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    AnsuGisalas

    "Noone's" that is, now that I see it from outside my train of thought.
    Tangling contractions with possessives - it reminds me of what DJs call a train-wreck: when they mix from one track to another, and the beats of the two tracks disharmoniously clash during the transition. They beat themselves and each other up about that, too.

    Thanks, and you're welcome.

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    jck

    Those who don't want change because it cramps their "lifestyle" just say my facts are wrong without proof.

    Those who are too lazy to do something rather than their normal activities (or inactivities) still do nothing.

    A lot of people seem to have the same attitude toward environmental care as they do voting.

    "Oh, I am just one person. I can't make a difference."

    Throwing a plastic bottle in a recycle bin instead of a waste bin takes little, if any, extra effort.

    Walking 2-3 blocks to the store, rather than driving, reduces emissions into the atmosphere.

    Opening blinds/shades and using natural sunlight for indoor activities, rather than electrical lighting, reduces power generation requirements and reduces the burning of fossil fuels.

    It's little things you can do to help, and most of them are free...and in some cases (like recycling aluminum) it puts money back in your pocket.

    But, so many people want no inconvenience and all the benefits they can have without thinking.

    So, I won't preach anymore to folks. I've given up on the majority of people in my country simply because they are too into themselves at the expense of others and the environment.

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    jp85257

    You can do all of the things you mention and still not believe in the GW claims.

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    AnsuGisalas

    That prudence coincides with the demands of this big bad wolf.

    The saddest thing about the pursuit of convenience so enthroned in our collective culture is, that you really can't feel it.
    If you get a bit more convenience today, then that is tomorrow's baseline.
    Anything less than that will now feel like a drag.
    Where does that lead?

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    jck

    Lack of common sense has been overridden by gluttony and selfishness. There are people who think it's their right to have whatever they can get...even if it is bad for everyone else.

    And usually, the ones who participate in it end up being the biggest moral watchdogs around.

    Makes me wish I had been born 100 years earlier. It'd be easier to deal with folks like that.

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    AV .

    We are a free country. Some people think that means they're free to pollute. Free to do whatever they want, regardless of who or what it hurts. If you want to find the biggest offenders, follow the money and, yes, look at the moral watchdogs.

    I wouldn't want to be born 100 years earlier. I wouldn't have even been able to vote! Back then though, people had to live with less. They had better values than we do today.

    AV

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    AnsuGisalas

    they had less opportunities to grow accustomed to wastefulness.

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    AV .

    So what you're saying is man didn't have real values back then either, they just didn't have the opportunities. I tend to idealize the olden days, but you're probably right. Given the opportunity, they'd be just as decadent as we are today.

    AV

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    AV .

    We're a long way off from the idea of America, though. I don't know if we can ever get it back.

    AV

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    AV .

    "Is this foreplay or just bitterness?"


    Its probably a little of both, depending on who you're talking about. Max is a person with very strong opinions on most subjects. I find him to be very challenging, personally, but he might be too strong for some people here, so we have a little drama sometimes. TR has always been like this and I think its all good. Open discussion.

    Okay, maybe we don't always solve world problems, but you have to understand that there are all different kinds of personalities here, so this is what you get.

    AV

    edited: added PT's quote