Watercooler

Occupy Wall St.

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Locked

Occupy Wall St.

AV .
I'm excited to see people protesting in the streets about the poor state of our country. I might join them one day! Though they are loosely defined right now, I think Occupy Wall St. is a revolt against greed, money and power, but mostly it???s about the power of the people when they unite for a common cause.

These signs speak for themselves. They are very honest. (some profanity)
http://www.buzzfeed.com/fjelstud/the-best-signs-from-occupy-wall-street

This revolt is fueled by the joblessness in this country and the 2008 financial meltdown caused by reckless banking practices. It???s about the growing inequality between rich and poor. The banks got bailed out on taxpayer money. Failed big businesses, like GM and AIG, were bailed out. The rest of us were left a lot poorer as a result. Four long years after the meltdown, economic conditions look bleaker than ever for many people.

When I look at the Occupy Wall St. protesters, I see people that just want to have a fair shot at a decent life. Isn't that what we all want? They aren???t the Tea Party of the left. I think they are mostly apolitical, at least right now. It will be interesting to see where this growing movement goes and what effect it will have on our government and our lives in the future. I don't think its going away.

They have achieved one major thing so far. They started a conversation in this country about greed and how big money people and corporations control our government, not the people. That's a conversation worth having.

An interesting take . . .
http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/14/opinion/kohn-occupy-protest/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

AV
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    jp85257

    A union sponsored, Soros funded spectacle with paid protesters. That will REALLY open up good conversations about the economy and jobs.

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    AV .

    Its about disgust for our current system by the little people in this country that lost a lot. Its a gut level, honest protest about the state of our country. Its just the beginning.

    AV

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    jp85257

    It IS just the beginning. With the likes of Obama, Pelosi, and Sharpton fanning the flames, we'll soon have riots in the streets, giving them the perfect opportunity to force more of their agenda down our throats without giving us a chance to vote on anything. They'll take away even more of our rights on the pretense of "protecting us".

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    With the Likes of Palin, Rick Santorum, Donald Trump & Co they would cause Riots in the Streets if they ever rose to a position of Power.

    Though personally I do not believe that State Sanctioned Genocide against Peaceful people who's only crime is to disagree with those in power actually constitutes a Riot. Though I suppose them attempting to run away as the State Sponsored Uniformed Terrorists try to kill them is completely unacceptable as it would expand the Collateral Damage to a greater area. But these proposed Leaders have good teachers in Lenin, Starlin, the current Governments of Lebanon & Syria, and so on. Anyone who dares to disagree with leaders like these needs to be Exterminated.

    After all it would have to be Treason in their Eyes for someone to disagree with them so they would feel perfectly happy to Order in the National Guard with Orders to Shoot to Kill all those who peacefully disagree with them.

    As all these supposed leaders are Right by Birth and can do no wrong can they? :^0

    Obviously the Riff Raff who disagree with them are the Rabble than need to trampled underfoot and destroyed for the Good of the Country as how dare anyone disagree with their views on anything.

    Remember Greed is Good. :^0 :^0 :^0

    Col [/sarcasm]

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    Ed Woychowsky

    Remember, it's only treason if you fail. If you succeed, you're a patriot.

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    AV .

    Our federal government doesn't get anything done for the people of this country. They don't represent the people of this country, they represent big money interests.

    There are a lot of us riff raff around. Just think what a big voice we can have if we unite.

    AV

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    Ed Woychowsky

    They could always try what was done in the books if they thought that they were about to lose power.

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    AV .

    I think we should collect all the politicians and send them to carousel instead.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    over and done with, I say.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    What's wrong with having a bit of Fun and getting a Good Laugh at the ramblings of some?

    After my posts here some may even believe that I like some Politicians. :^0 :^0 :^0

    Col

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    Ed Woychowsky

    With a side of onion rings?

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Is if you are silly enough to listen to the Pollies you'll start to pity them very quickly and when that happens the ROT gone beyond the ability to remove stage.

    The silly fools actually think what they do is important and that they actually do something constructive when they are actually just Impotent Fools who we tolerate because we can not stand the thought of them being able to mingle with the General Public.

    It's better to have them locked up in their Parliament Houses thinking that they are Important and hence leave the real people in peace to attempt to live our lives without Interference.

    Col

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    AV .

    Neither side represents the people. They all represent Corporate America and Wall St. That's what the problem is.

    There's a difference between partnering with business in a joint venture and accepting huge campaign donations to influence policy direction from wealthy donors.

    AV

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    seanferd

    It worked for the other guys, didn't it?

    Actually, I don't think anything will be forced down your throat, though. Except Obama continuing to uphold the crap that was put in place before he was teh Prez.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    The Racist Bigots that make up the Tea Party.

    But the reality here is that the people who are involved in the Wall St Protest are all Commies. They refuse to believe that Greed is Good and that Private Enterprise is the best thing since sliced bread.

    Shock Horror they even believe that 1% of the population shouldn't hold 90% of the wealth and 99% of the Population should at best have access to 1% of the countries wealth that they maintain.

    Obviously Communist Beliefs as there is no other possibility possible.

    Col [/Sarcasm]

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    dhays

    The head of the C Party USA spoke to the Occupy Chicago rally and many in the crowd applauded and agreed with what was said.

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    AV .

    I'd like to see it.

    AV

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    AV .

    I guess they just wanted to have their voices heard.

    AV

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    seanferd

    Can't beat that with a stick.

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    seanferd

    Or is it a priori wrong because a communist said it?

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    that I've seen touting that angle. Care to offer up some links?

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    You know the Old Story.

    Never let the Truth get in the road of a Good Story. All you need do is say a Lie often enough for some to start to believe it, God I see that in the Media all of the time they say that they Report Stories when they are actually pushing their Own Agenda and Making Up what they want to report.

    If enough people sprout that Lie on places like Tweeber where the Twits hang out I'm sure that you'll get some Idiot from the Main Stream Media Report it as Fact possibly Fox News? After all what they have has never been described as News just Entertainment.

    Though honestly that does kind of worry me that Light Entertainment can be passed off as News and not many question the motives of the Crowd doing it.

    Now let me tell you how those members of the Evil Press in Opposition to Rupert Bare, Hacked Rupert's Phone and passed all of the nasty stories to it to be reported in the News of the World.

    Poor Little Rupert Bare is the Victim here of a Hostile Takeover, you'll be able to read that soon on Tweeber and the Twits there will believe it.

    See it's all a Big Conspiracy to discredit Rupert Bare and take over his Organization. He's the Victim here not the Bad Guy who will do anything to make money. :^0 :^0 :^0

    See tell the same lie often enough and some one somewhere will eventually believe it.

    Col

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    jp85257

    Look at how often you hear:

    "The Racist Bigots that make up the Tea Party" without anything to back up the statement.

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    CharlieSpencer

    One of the Tea Party's problems is that it isn't really a party. It's preferred decentralized approach allows anyone to claim he is the leader or spokesman for a local branch. The more outlandish his position, the more media attention he's going to receive, especially internationally.

    There are several small but vocal groups from the extreme right wing that have entered their floats in the Tea Party's parade. These include survivalists, neo-Nazis, 'White rights', secessionists, etc. They're not necessarily typical of the movement as a whole, but there's no central organization to distance itself from them.

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    jp85257

    So far they've garnered support from the American Nazi Party, Socialist Party USA, Communist Party USA, and Red China among others.

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    CharlieSpencer

    I didn't say it about OWS because I was unaware of the 'support' you cited.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Or have members of OWS set themselves up as spokespersons for OWS?
    Palmetto said the teabaggers were having these problems (of spokepersons which cannot be rejected, because there is no authority to deny them), not that they were in trouble for receiving support from unwanted sources.

    If OWS sticks to a single message (unlike the tea party, which seems to have an ever diversifying agenda), they won't have those same problems. Anyone speaking outside the message will have cut themselves out.

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    jp85257

    "If OWS sticks to a single message (unlike the tea party, which seems to have an ever diversifying agenda)".

    Just what is the single message that OWS is supposedly sticking to? I've listened to dozens and dozens of interviews and most of the people don't have a clue why they're there.

    And if you're going to continue to call the Tea Party, "teabaggers", please start referring to OWS as "fleabaggers". It's only fair.

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    AnsuGisalas

    No message can't be hijacked.
    Anyway, I dunno where I saw the "teabagger" nickname, but I thought it's a fun historical pun. What with carpets and whatnot.

    Fleabaggers? How about Scumbaggers? After all the 99 to 1 % thing sets the riff-raff scene nicely.

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    jp85257

    the "teabagger" moniker is referring to an obscure sexual practice. You know, the kind that only liberals would engage in. ;-)

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    AnsuGisalas

    I think you just have your mind in the gutter.

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    jp85257

    you obviously don't listen to MSNBC.

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    seanferd

    The idea would be to not let them hijack anything positive.

    Corporations are a bad idea, and bad in practice. So is the deregulated financial and trading sector. If the Nazis thing "teh ebul Joos" are in control, well, that's their problem. If the OWS as a whole starts going "mmm, Nazis, yum!", then you have a point.

    Coomunists - what are there, like five of them? Oooh, scary dangerous! Dial up McCarthy so he can invent some more to hunt down.

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    seanferd

    You realize that was a self-adopted name of the teabaggers before they figured out there was another use for the concept of "teabag", right?

    It's one of the reasons they are so amusing.

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    AnsuGisalas

    gutter-thinking aside, that's what the -bagger suffix in a political context of the USA triggers first and foremost, at least for me it did.

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    CharlieSpencer

    What is OWS's message? 'I'm mad as **** and I'm not gonna take it any more!' will only go so far. It's great for venting the spleen and whipping up a crowd, but by itself it won't result in action or change.

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    jp85257

    Just because someone here posts that Tea Partiers gave themselves that name doesn't make it true.

    Liberals have been trying to discredit them since day one and haven't accomplished anything other than make themselves look foolish.

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    hippiekarl

    1) The Tea 'Party', who point out Soros $ aiding OWS, are themselves the creation of, and beholden to, the infamous Koch Bros.
    2) I humbly suggest 'Wallbangers' for OWS's colloquial moniker....

    "Thanks; I'll hang up and listen".....*click*

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    That would be posted and it would break TR completely.

    But if you want to look with Open Eyes just pickup any Mass Media Publication and read it. You'll find the necessary information to prove that they are Raciest Bigots.

    I don't need to post links to what is the Bleeding Obvious to anyone with even half a Lobotomized head.

    Now that we have finished with that lot of scum lets start on the rest of the waste of space Politicians.

    Col :^0 :^0

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    jp85257

    all those people of other colors that attend the Tea Party meetings would be shocked to find out they're all racists.

    Maybe, it's just the publications you subscribe to.

    BTW, did you know if you say the word "guacamole" real slow, it sounds just like you're saying "gullible"?

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    In the Main Stream Media.

    As a person who Hates ALL Politicians I don't give any of them the smallest chance to warp my mind with their misguided beliefs and downright Bull _Shit. Just listen what the so called Members of the Tea Party say they want to achieve and it's very hard to believe that they are anything but what they are.

    Of course if you are a fully Lobotomized Fool who believes that Politicians are there for our own good and firmly believe the saying Hi I'm from the Government and I'm here to help you. There is no hope as not even the Gullible believe that crap.

    Once upon a Time in a Galaxy Far Far away I was involved in the starting of a Community Group and the Loonies that crawled out of the woodwork attempting to Hijack that Organizations Agenda for their own ends had to be seen to be believed.

    Needless to say getting rid of the Loonies and Red Necks was the easy part as once they even looked as if that crowd had been involved no one took any notice of the Organization again and just dismissed them as Fringe Loonies.

    It took 2 years to get back to where we where before that first Open Meeting which was open the the public where groups like the Confederate Action Party, Survivalists, neo-Nazis, 'White rights', secessionists, etc. We even had members of Shin Fein wanting to join.

    When you let it be known that you associate with those type of people you are shot before you begin and unless you do something to stop them hijacking your Agenda which the Tea Party Has Not you get exactly what you deserve.

    If you are happy to be associated with those people to get Press Coverage you are a Racist Bigot who deserves no second thought.

    Basically if you do nothing to prevent that type of Person/Organization from representing you and actively encourage them to you are ignored from the very beginning as a Dangerous Bunch of Fringe Radicals who need to be shut down at best and left alone to stew in their own juices normally.

    Just remember that the Brown Shirts in Germany expounded exactly the same beliefs as the Reported Tea Party does now and look where that took us all for a lovely ride. You want to associate with Loonies you get exactly what you deserve. :^0

    Of course if you care to post links to the Tea Party decrying the comments that have been made in it's name I'm all ears but currently they don't exist. As things currently stand the Tea Party Group is nothing more than Media _Whores who will say anything to see their names in the Press.

    Col

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    jp85257

    So, you rely on the MSM for your information? No wonder you're so misinformed. The only accurate reporting on the MSM is sports scores and they even get those wrong on occasion.

    You hate politicians but want to give them even more control over your life? I guess that makes sense to a liberal.

    Here's a news flash for you: those "free" handouts they keep promising you aren't really free. I know that's confusing for someone who relies so heavily on the MSM, but it really is the truth.

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    CharlieSpencer

    All I'm hearing from this crowd is complaints. If they've offered a single viable suggestion, I haven't yet heard it. In this, they're not different from the Tea Party movement.

    I wonder how many of those in either movement is even registered to vote. Of that 99% they're so concerned with, only 71% were registered in 2008, and only 64% voted. The one-third of us that sit on our butts could easily out-vote that 1% this movement thinks is taking unfair advantage.

    http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p20-562.pdf

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    AnsuGisalas

    big corporate will buy whoever you voted into office

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    CharlieSpencer

    although I do question their deciding the legal entities have the same rights as people, and that donating money is equivalent to speech. I'll stick to my platform of changing campaign finance so that only those registered to vote in a district can donate money to its candidates. If you aren't a registered voter in Miami, you can't contribute to people running for mayor. If you aren't registered in Michigan, you can't donate to its gubernatorial or US senatorial candidates. (Why the **** is the governor of SC fund raising in NY???) You can only vote for one candidate in the primary and one in the general election, so you can only donate to one candidate in each of those contests.

    It will take a Constitutional amendment to override the Supremes' decisions. It would certainly save candidates all that fund raising they claim they abhor. It would also take corporation, unions, non-profits, etc. out of the game.

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    AnsuGisalas

    or at least make it harder for them.
    The republicans have gotten burned for doing campaign financing stunts to squirm out of even the present rules (DeLay, anyone?) ... so I guess they'll wanna at least try to screw over a new system as well...

    But other than that, it sounds really good.
    Occupy Wall street can probably be swung around to support that one, rumble it through.

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    jp85257

    No mention of any Democrats who have gotten burned for breaking campaign finance rules?

    Your bias is showing.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Come now, credit where due - DeLay was newsworthy!

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Politicians are Bastards who suck the life out of any country.

    They are the lowest scum on the face of the planet who do nothing and take the benefits of the uneducated who believe what they are told that Politicians are Important when that was a misprint and should have read Impotent Are worth the money you pay them as if any useless blood sucking leach is worth anything other than death Set the Direction that the Country Takes when they are really just engaged in Knee Jerk Reactions to what appears in the Mass Media.

    Get with the program and Exterminate the Entire Subspecies of **** Sapian, **** Politicius.

    That subspecies evolved from the Telephone Sanitizers and Market Researchers who where told that they where being sent away from their dieing planet to start a new world. When they left the planet returned to Life.

    The idea was to have then crash into any planet and all die. Unfortunately because several Market Researchers who worked on the exterior color of the Spaceship where involved in the project not all died when the ship crashed into Earth 6 thousand years ago and the rot has been going on ever since getting worse.

    So join the new Sport who's sole aim to to eradicate Politicians in any from from the face of the planet. If you join now you'll be able to compete in the 2012 Olympic Games Stalking and destroying Home Politicius. And if you really want to scare naughty little children you can cut off their heads have them stuffed and mounted and then hang them on your favorite wall.

    Though that may be considered as Cruel and Inhumane abuse for children but any sensible person.

    Col

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    AV .

    They don't have a clear message yet, but I think they will one day. I'd like to see them stay unaffiliated with either party. The Dems are trying to harness their anger, but I think both parties have already shown they aren't representing the interests of most of us.

    If they were, we would have jobs in this country, for anyone that wants to work. People that cheated all of us out of our retirement savings would be in prison.

    When I look at the people that are protesting, I see a lot of young people. I think that's good because the future is theirs. They have fancy educations, big student loans and jobs are just a dream. Maybe all of them didn't vote in 2008, but that could change given the state of our economy.

    There is too much voter apathy. People that don't vote don't understand that's all the power you have. In the end, voting or not, this country is still in the pits.

    AV

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Don't let silly little things like Facts get in the road of a Good Story.

    I read it on the Internet that the Occupy Wall St Group is a bunch of Anti American Commies so it must be true and everything that they push on the masses is lies. :^0

    Needless to say that the idea began in Spain with a group of Students Protesting about a Lack of Jobs and has spread World Wide but we'll not let silly Little Facts get in the road of a good story. :^0 :^0

    Col

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    jp85257

    From the first lines of your link:

    "Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands."

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    AnsuGisalas

    On the other hand, how else would you expect anyone to launch a nefarious plan?
    It's the oldest trick in the book:
    Day before D-day: "There is no Master Plan".
    Day after D-day: "What? You believed that?!?"

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    Ow.

    AnsuGisalas

    reading those comments hertz my brain!

    And the demands are dumb. No point in going after an end-stage in mid-struggle... or nascent struggle as it might be, if it doesn't peter out.

    Just go for a kill on the one thing that keeps the present system alive - citizen rights for corporate entities.

    Kill that. Then see what happens, adapting as you go.

    Shooting for the stars is a good way to land on one's ***.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    I have a lot of time for Demand 4 Free College Education.

    For a Leading Economy of the world where very little is any longer made this is a necessity. But the down side is a better educated population makes things harder for the Current Government to get away with or introduce silly Policy. Of course the same applies to the Current Opposition when they became the Government they have a harder time and if as the Current Opposition they introduce Silly Policies they get howled down just as quickly as the Current Government.

    Countries like South Korea who actively Push Higher Education onto their citizens have a distinct advantage as a Country when it comes to the New World Order where Technology is the Ruler and the low end nonpaying Jobs simply no longer exist.

    If you want to live in a High Technology Forward Facing Community you need to be both Highly Educated and Employed in a position that you can afford to Live on. That doesn't mean working for Minimum Wage in the Low End of the High Tech Society but a Living Wage so you can afford to actually live.

    That doesn't mean you need 4 Million per hour but it also doesn't mean you get $10.00 per hour when you need to be earning $60.00 just to buy food and pay rent.

    Without a Highly Educated Population the country can not move forward and will not make the most possible from the New World Order that is being pushed by Big Business.

    Col

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    jp85257

    "free college education". Is that tuition only? Books included? How about labs? Free entrance into the Saturday football game? Free parking? A free laptop? Free food in the cafeteria?

    I'm all for free college educations but only with the following condition: you have to qualify academically to get into college. Throw out all of the losers who are in college just to avoid having to go out in the real world and get a job. They are only distractions. Leave college for the best and brightest regardless of their financial situation.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    "free college education". Is that tuition only? defiantly not

    Books included? depends on the books but then again those that are out of date before the author finishes writing them should be done away with.

    How about labs? Depends on the Course being done. After all someone studding Humanities isn't going to need much of a Lab to begin with where as those Studding Atomic Physics most defiantly will need these.

    Free entrance into the Saturday football game? What's this got to do with anything but none the less Charge the **** out of them particularly those participating. Grid Iron Players = Brain Damaged Drooling Idiots who are a long term drain on the economy. Ice Hockey Players fall into the same league. Rugby Players = Thugs, Rugby League Players = Thugs who are not good enough to be Rugby Thugs, Aussie Rules = Thugs who are not good enough to be Rugby League Thugs, Soccer = Bad Actors. But none the less all are a drain on society so do everything possible to discourage them at every step.

    So in light of that most defiantly charge the **** out of them they are not productive members of Society so why should Society encourage them to be a drain on that Society?

    Free parking? Not really necessary if Proper Public Transport is available.

    A free laptop? Again depends on the course. After all those who study Humanities are not quite in the same League as those studding for instance Nuclear Medicine.

    However if the Education Authorities made their Own NB like those proposed in India that would cost between $25.00 and $50.00 each it's not much of a stretch to buy one is it? Dump the Free Enterprise Model where Business does everything possible to get as much money as possible out of each and every student while supplying them with Education Equipment that far exceeds the required use of the course.

    Free food in the cafeteria? Most defiantly for all Medical Students and Football Players. That way the Medical Students can have first hand experience of dangerous Food Practices and just maybe a few Brain Damaged/Thugs will be removed from the Gene Pool.

    Personally I would probably go a lot further Get Rid of the Useless Courses that the only possible job resulting from doing them is to teach that course to others. After all Wallmart doesn't need people with BA's to stick iPads on shelves does it?

    Society Needs productive members not those who are a drain on it and those who do the Easy useless courses fall into that Category as well as those who teach them.

    you have to qualify academically to get into college. I have no problems with that provided you get rid of the useless easy courses. if you keep them then you should let anyone and their dog in.

    Throw out all of the losers who are in college just to avoid having to go out in the real world and get a job. Sports Players and particularly those on Sports Scholarships and Useless Courses like Business Management? Though if the Cafeteria Food poisons the Sports People/Humanities Students that may just prove very useful to the Medical Students and they would be another source of Free Fodder for the Medical Students studies. :^0

    Leave college for the best and brightest regardless of their financial situation. . I completely agree but you have to get rid of the Useless Courses first.

    Col

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    jp85257

    The best and brightest would never enroll in those classes. They were only created to give the mental midgets enough credits to stay in school, push the liberal agenda, or give a tenured professor a sandbag job so they can keep collecting paychecks..

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    AnsuGisalas

    Yeah! Like, whoever needs to speak Chinese, eh?

    On the other hand, I'm fine with it if English speaking countries abolish humanities education... I'd be able to charge more'n a medical doctor for my transgrokification services.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    But I've seen far too many people with a Humanities Degree selling junk Furniture in A Mart. That's the AU equivalent of Wall Mart in the states but more limited in what they sell. Not even a high end well paying job just minimum wages and no future.

    Here they go to Uni run up a massive Hex Bill for their Degree and then don't have any job that they can do to make use of that degree.

    That to me is a Waste of Education and a Pointless Exercise.

    But if you just want a Eduminacition to say that you have a "Batular's" I suppose it's OK though to me there are far cheaper ways to Big Note Yourself.

    OH and BTW don't you already charge more than most Doctors for your work? I certainly do.

    Col

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    AnsuGisalas

    While I can charge what I want, I'd like someone to agree to pay my price as well
    But yeah, I was enrolled in a masters programme which turned out to lead exactly nowhere, so I do know what you mean. Not riding that canoe no more

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    jp85257

    We all know that the only way to learn a foreign language is to go to a four year university.

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    AnsuGisalas

    just like it takes a four year university study to learn to work computers.

    It's all the same buddy. Some victims are just easier than others.

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    jp85257

    Was that Master Program in debating? From your posts I always thought you were a Master Debater. ;-)

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    AnsuGisalas

    See, from your posts I always got the impression that you'd like to be a Master Byter, but for a hardware/software dysfunction.

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    CharlieSpencer

    Many of his repeat customers were Master Baiters.

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    CharlieSpencer

    There's no reason to discuss in detail a list the movement itself disavows.

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    AnsuGisalas

    someone is hoping they'll stop to bicker about the bait.

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    CharlieSpencer

    "Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands."

    Or maybe because it says 'There is NO official list of demands'?

    Assuming this is the movement's 'official' web page, I'm glad to see them distance themselves from this list. Some points are mutually exclusive (guaranteed wage AND open borders), others ignore economic reality (free college, 2 trillion in infrastructure and ecological restoration), others violate freely entered business arrangements (debt amnesty, abolition of health insurance). I'd distance myself from this poorly considered list, too.

    Once again, this is one of the problems with a decentralized movement; anyone can present himself as its voice.

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    jp85257

    regarding debts. I just hope they give me enough notice so I can buy a mansion, 3 new cars, a boat, a pool, and a lot of gold before all debts are forgiven. ;-)

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Just "phreak" the US Presidents Official US of A Credit Card and go on a spending spree @ the tax payers expense.

    After all the current and immediate previsions administration ran up debts far in excess of what either of them could ever pay back. Just think of the US as Greece in 2025. The process will be the same and the only difference is more money is involved. That way they will do far more damage. :^0

    Perhaps then your Lusted For Mansion will not be sufficient as you'll need Air Travel between your Mansion and where ever you want to go or you'll run the risk of being robbed and eaten by the Starving Rabble when you leave your Grounds. :^0

    Of course using Air Transport leaves you in a position of being robbed and eaten by the people who you pay to transport you around so maybe it's better to just leave the country now and make your own somewhere, where money isn't and can never be involved.

    Minion here is a leaf of Letus now carry me to my Automobile and get the Chaffer to drive me where I want to go. Tell him I'll give him a Scooby Snack for this effort. I'll also give the Fuel Makers the fresh equivalent of a Tin of Beans to make the required fuel today. Certainly adds new meaning to the word Gass doesn't it? :^0

    See an economy without money and as an added advantage as you are using Food with a short shelf life there can be no hoarding to make people rich for doing nothing. Also you will not need to spool right either so everyone wins. :^0 :^0

    Col

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    AV .

    They don't have one right now. Note the disclaimer at the top of your article. It is one person's opinion.

    "Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands."

    I think by not defining themselves collectively, it makes them all the more interesting. The only thing we really know for sure is that they're not happy with the state of our country or our politics. I'm not happy with the same things, so I can relate to them on that level.

    I think OWS was inspired by the Arab Spring and particularly what the people in Egypt accomplished by unifying. I don't think OWS wants to overthrow the government, I think they want to fundamentally change the way things are done, utilizing the power of the masses. They want the government to listen to the people. What this group has going for it is its unity and its very big voice. Power to the people! We haven't had that spirit here since 1969. I like it.

    I heard this interview today from two of the OWS protesters in NY. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#44951473

    I thought it gave you some insight into their motivations. I thought I was back in the late '60's.

    AV

    Edit: I'm having a hard time determining if my post goes in the right place, so I added a name to the title.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    TR

    Where you make a post and it's likely to appear anywhere on the site. It may even appear off planet.

    Ain't Technology Wonderful. :^0

    Though to be perfectly honest I heard that this started in Spain with Students Protesting about the lack of employment not Egypt. :0

    Col

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    AV .

    Do tell.

    AV

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    markp24

    Hi all,

    I think part of the issue (along with erverything said prior is that the politicians are not accountable for there actions. If a politician puts a policy in place, or allows fluff to go thru on some unrelated bill or what ever it may be, and it fails to work or makes things worse, this person is not held accountable in the least. They just keep pushing more stuff through (based ususally on what corp entity is passing the most cash under the table.)
    I think we would see a big difference if thy were audited /policed by a "jury of citizens" or have some laws inplace to enforce what we need.

    Just a thought

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    CharlieSpencer

    We have one. It's called 'voters'. Membership is free.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    That the Pollies are free to do completely Idiot things when they first get erected and then when they come around for reelection people have forgotten the idiot Things that they initially did.

    Pollies know how to play the system and individually the do it very well to suit themselves. Of course that doesn't mean that they always do the best thing for their Party or Country but they always do the best thing for themselves.

    With the Apathy that the members of the General Public have and the extremely short memories by the time an Individual Polly comes up for reelection most have forgotten what they originally did. What they did last week/month is all that most remember if anything at all.

    Col

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    markp24

    did you really mean "when they first get erected "

    hmmmmm propably true with politicians...lol

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    markp24

    i see you point, but i feel like all we do is vote them in or out, and theres no repurcussions for doing a bad job.

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    jp85257

    What kind of repercussions would you recommend?

    Please define "doing a bad job". Who's going to decide?

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    markp24

    depending on the "bad job" maybe a fine, or jail time, or even required to do community projects.
    Bad job - defined as not doing what they promise to do.
    You say you will do X Y and Z if your voted in, then once your voted in you do the complete opposite of X, Y and Z then thats a bad job.

    (maybe im just to black and white with no shades of grey on my viewpoints)

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    jp85257

    So you're a Democrat and promise X,Y, and Z. The House, Senate, and Presidency are controlled by Republicans. They block every attempt for you to accomplish X,Y,and Z. Should you be fined for not doing what you promised?

    Don't get me wrong, I think we should throw them all out. But trying to punish someone for things they may not have control of isn't a real good idea IMHO.

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    markp24

    Didnt think of it that way, very good point,
    (I do agree by the way , about kicking everyone out and starting fresh, all the poiticians and parties, etc appear soo corrupt)

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    CharlieSpencer

    There's a difference between doing a bad job and committing a crime. Would you like to pay a fine or go to jail if your employer decides you're doing a bad job? Your employer can fire you; we can fire elected officials.

    The problem with basing a job performance assessment on campaign promises is two-fold. One is that the elected official often has to work with other elected officials who may have made completely contradictory promises to their constituents. The other is that each official has thousands or millions of 'bosses' who don't all agree on which promises are important.

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    JamesRL

    People who are in the ruling party "should" have access enough to information to be able to make informed and intelligent promises(not that they always do). Politicians who are not in the ruling party often make promises based on flawed premises or without vital information, because they don't have the same access to all information that the ruling party does.

    So if someone makes a promise in good faith, and then once in power discovers a disasterous consequence, should they blindly go ahead any way?

    And of course, situations change. The finances of the government changes, new facts come to light etc.

    The whole idea of representative democracy is that you chose someone who makes decisions similar to what you would make if you were in their position. But you can't account for the unknowable factors.

    Breaking a promise is not a crime. It is a factor to consider when looking at whether to vote for someone a second time.

    I'd rather have someone who breaks a promise when it makes sense, than someone who blindly votes based on an election promise despite overwhelming evidence that it is a bad thing.

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    CharlieSpencer

    The lesser being that while many countries enjoy a Parliamentarian government, in the US there is no 'ruling party'. Our president is not selected by the majority party of either house of our Congress. It's common for one party to have a majority in both houses while the President is of another (the other) party.

    The more important point regards the responsibility of those elected officials. Quoting from the ever-questionable Wikipedia:

    "The representatives form an independent ruling body (for an election period) charged with the responsibility of acting in the people's interest, but not as their proxy representatives nor necessarily always according to their wishes, but with enough authority to exercise swift and resolute initiative in the face of changing circumstances. It is often contrasted with direct democracy, where representatives are absent or are limited in power as proxy representatives."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

    I vote for someone to make the best decision. If, as you note, the party in power has better access to the relevant information, then my elected representatives have better access than I do. I want them to make the best possible decisions based on that access, not based on what we uninformed votes may prefer.

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    JamesRL

    The flip side to elections is that because of the prevalence of partisanship and party politics, you have politicians who get elected and do a great job representing their consituents, but then they can lose their job because of a swing based on party. There are soem rare politicians who can buck the trend, but it would seem to me less often these days,

    Don't like em? Vote them out!

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    AnsuGisalas

    Like this:
    I give my one net vote for party X, with a +1 subvote for candidate Mr/Mz Not-yet-worthy-of-my-contempt, and a -1 subvote for candidate Mr/Mz Very-much-in-need-of-a-smiting.

    So it's 1 vote for the party, with instructions to change the internal vote distribution of the party, giving to the favored candidate (if there is one) and taking from the unfavoured candidate (...which won't likely be hard to find).
    That way voters could get a chance to slam the people who are otherwise untouchable, because they're too good at playing the internal politics game, have too many allies, etc.
    Could be fun!

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    markp24

    hmmm, that may work.....lol

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    CharlieSpencer

    It's 'straight party' voting that results in the situation JamesRL describes, when worthy local incumbents are voted out because of knee-jerk reactions against their party's national policies. Stick to voting for individuals.

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    AnsuGisalas

    there's enough damn dumbasses around to make sure the idjits get lots and lots of votes... and in many voting systems that means they can extend their vote surplus to fellow idjits. Only way to combat that is to deal with the distribution internal to the party.

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    CharlieSpencer

    punch the straight party button, and call it a day.

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    AnsuGisalas

    it's for the rest of us.
    But you're right: The Biggs Hoson won't allow any useful change to happen in Poll'O'Ticks - That would violate the laws of quantumdynamics.

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    markp24

    they still stay in term for X years, and if they get voted out, they just run again somewhere else or always seem to previal some where else (got to give credit for there ability to do that)

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    DelbertPGH

    There's been a group of demonstrators who set up tents in a small park owned by my bank, and if I look down 42 floors I can see them. The camp has been there for 10 days now, and it looks like they have grown by 5 or 10 people per day. The park is less than two acres, and they seem to have almost 100 tents down there, maybe 200 people you could count as residents. There's not room for many more.

    They don't block the sidewalks or harass passers by. They have a number of signs (we are the 99%, capitalism destroys, don't trust your banker) that sit around propped up against tents or are tied to the security fence the bank put up around the fountain. They don't stand around shouting or trying to draw attention, beyond the fact of just being there. Most of the inhabitants disappear during the day, when they go off to class or jobs, and return about the time I go home. I suspect they are around in the biggest force during the evening, but I have no idea what they do then, when I'm gone; probably give speeches to each other, or lead cheers, or form a drum circle. It's hard to call them demonstrators; it's more like occupiers, really. They just occupy the place, and that's their whole act.

    Four potable toilets were set up on the sidewalk next to the subway, probably courtesy of the bank, which also laid down straw in the park to protect the sod. The bank is as low-key and low-temperature as the demonstrators. They've put on extra security staff, unarmed people who sit around in blue blazers with walkie-talkie radios, waiting in case something should happen, in which case they would politely tell the offenders they were trespassing and radio the news in to the main security desk. The occupiers' adventure is in camping out in the yard; the security staffers' adventure is in getting paid overtime in the months before Christmas. There's no friction. The bank made $650 million last quarter, so I don't think it's sweating the costs.

    I've walked through and talked with people several times. Like the Tea Party, it's not a group with a coherent philosophy. They sense something very wrong has happened and is still happening, they're angry and scared, and they have lots of crazy or sensible explanations for it. Like the Tea Party, nobody seems to have an accurate idea of what banks do or what capitalism actually is; everybody has four or five equally important and opposed ideas banging around in his head, so even talking to one person you don't get much of a consistent idea of what's bothering them. Some are pretty moderate, and some are pretty radical, and some are wacky nature children who think they know something vital about economics. Very like the tea party, actually.

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    CharlieSpencer

    Like any other business, banks are there to make profits for their shareholders. I don't see why it shouldn't be any less acceptable for them to make a legal profit than any other business model. Those practicing questionable tactics need to be smacked around, but that doesn't mean an entire category of business is inherently evil.

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    AV .

    In the 2008 meltdown, they did it with CD swaps.

    No one should ever forget what the banks allowed to happen in the past. There were a couple of smackdowns for illegal activities, but no mass perp walk for the financial crimes that sank our economy. There should have been.

    Personally, I don't feel that any of us have justice for what happened to our economy. Our lives.

    AV

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    jp85257

    This just shows how Government intervention into business hurts all of us. I wonder how bad the entire situation would have been if banks weren't forced to give loans they knew wouldn't be paid back because the Government decided that it was a "right" for everyone to own a home.

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    DelbertPGH

    Conservatives are blowing a lot of smoke around about how government caused the banking crisis by making banks underwrite poor people's mortgages. Bill Clinton's administration did encourage banks to lend to poorer people, on the grounds that (1) the poor would be more likely to work hard and behave better if they had their own homes, and weren't just paying rent; and (2) banks had been systematically avoiding borrowers in disadvantaged black neighborhoods for decades. (There was conservative think-tank support for this plan, by the way.) The loans were guaranteed by Fannie Mae and other semi-governmental agencies. That much of the story is true. However, there just weren't enough poor people who couldn't afford their loans to cause a problem the size of the crisis we experienced. Think about it for a second. It doesn't add up.

    What was the real cause was a ten year boom in real estate prices, followed by ten more years where prices boomed even more wildly. It wasn't poor people who made ordinary houses in Las Vegas worth $400,000, that now sell for $90,000; it wasn't poor people responsible for a third of American homeowners' mortgages now being underwater. Prices boomed because banks shovelled money into the market, encouraging people to buy and flip homes to drive up the prices, or to make cash-out refinances. Banks were making loans to anyone who could sign a piece of paper, and millions of unqualified borrowers joined even more millions of steady payers who simply borrowed over their heads. Banks were loaning at up to 40 times their capital. The government had given up on trying to keep banks from going into risky businesses, on the assumption that bankers were too wise to act dumb. Hah.

    Here's an article, refuting the blame-Fannie-Mae thesis.
    http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/jul/13/why-fannie-and-freddie-are-not-blame-crisis/

    Here's a picture show, from 2008, showing how the house of cards was built and collapsed.
    http://www.slideshare.net/kjain.nitin/sub-prime-primer-1468663

    Conservative thinkers, the Federal Reserve, the Treasury Department, and Washington politicians spent the last 20 years in a kum-by-yah circle, holding hands and singing about the greatness of capitalism and the infallible wisdom of the great mother market, which would make sure everything was priced correctly and made bubbles impossible, and otherwise behaving like a bunch of silly economic amateurs. And all the time, the fees kept rolling in. They had such a good time singing and taking money from people that they are still trying to keep it going, making up stories about how some socialist somewhere could be blamed for trillions of dollars of disaster. Don't believe them.

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    jp85257

    Conservative thinkers like Barney Frank, Maxine Waters, Gregory Meeks, Lacy Clay, Arthur Davis, and a host of other Democrats who blocked any attempts to regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from 2001 through 2005 even though they knew there were huge problems with both of them that were only going to get worse?

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    DelbertPGH

    You are correct that Democratic politicians entrusted with oversight of Fannie did fail to keep it out of bad investments. Fannie and Freddie did stay clear of the worst stuff, unlike institutions like Bear, Lehman, Merrill Lynch, Countrywide, Washington Mutual, and Wachovia... firms that were all privately owned and managed, all well respected and immensely rich, and have all disappeared from the business landscape due to reckless behavior. Their failure had nothing to do with government encouragement to loan to poor people.

    And, you say the politicians "knew there were huge problems... that were only going to get worse." I'd say instead that the politicians found it more pleasing to believe that property values would shoot up forever and that people could get rich by buying and selling their homes to each other endlessly, than to assert common sense and take measures to shut the party down. They took their cue from the banks, run by the smartest guys in the capitalist west, who held on to the same crazy belief and who were getting really, really rich from this con.

    Have you perhaps not recognized yet that the problem was all due to the largest asset bubble in U.S. history, financed by debt?

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    AnsuGisalas

    Especially when they repackaged them into derivatives, the derivatives is the direct and complete source of this crisis. We also overlook the fact that the financing market has grown out of proportion, and that a select few players are thriving on the debt crises, making "funny money" out of nothing, with no risk, even though it chokes all the value-producing markets. The banks are involved, because the law says their leaders must do what is best for the shareholders, and if that means going after the funny money and screwing over the whole world... well, it's the law, you know?

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    DelbertPGH

    Banks are where the money goes and where the money comes from. People think that the government prints the money, but for the most part, that is not true. Banks make the amount of money in circulation increase by a factor of roughly ten: they take money in as loans or deposits (deposits are actually just another form of a loan), lend it back out at higher interest, and receive the money back again when the borrower's employees and suppliers want to put their money in the bank. The speed with which the cash makes this round trip, and gets lent out again, is "the velocity of money." Banks create more money than the Federal Reserve.

    There are three ways a bank makes a profit: by borrowing money at a low rate and lending it back out at a higher rate; or by charging a fee for some kind of service. The fees could be for managing a portfolio of investments, or for creating and selling a new bond built out of an assemblage of mortgages, or acting as a broker in a variety of deals. The third way is making bets on markets with its own money, such as investing in currencies as George Soros does, or day trading in stocks.

    When the economy is expanding, it's easy for a bank to make money. When prices go up and interest rates stay stable, anyone can make money, but especially banks. Bankers get excited, because they make truly big personal money on some deals. They try to get more people making more loans or investing in more bank-designed vehicles, because every time the bank takes in a fee.

    Since all bank lending is financed with borrowed money (hey, your savings account is just money you lend to a bank, right?) it is important that the bank not depend on cheap short term loans to underwrite its own long-term lending. If the bank borrowed from rich guy X at 2% for two years, and loaned to wise guy Y at 5% for five years, then after two years it has to refinance its own borrowing, and at four years do it again. What happens if at year four the market for two-year money is up to 7%? The bank is in a liquidity squeeze. What if wise guy Y can't pay, and the house he put up as collateral has lost half its value? The bank suddenly stops making new loans, cancels existing lines of credit to its customers, and fires employees. The velocity of money drops. Instead of the Fed's money multiplying by a factor of 10 in the economy, it's a lower multiple. Everybody suddenly experiences less cash in his pocket.

    Banks can do lots of things badly, like refuse to recognize risk. When the economy is good and they are collecting fees and profiting from healthy interest differentials, anything that makes for more business seems like good business. When you're getting rich this year (and I mean filthy stinking rich, like $10 or $100 million paychecks for top deal makers) do you think about next year and how your institution will fare? Without sensible regulation, sooner or later bankers will follow the money beyond the limit.

    When banks collapse, the economy collapses, because banks do not only collect and distribute money: they make it multiply, literally. When the financial system takes a major hit, as happened all around the globe in 2007-2008, the costs to society are much more severe than when any other industry gets in trouble. That's why banks are different, and can't be allowed to make money any damn way they please. We have a vital social interest in a healthy banking system that preempts banks' freedom.

    "Banks" as I use the term includes every type of major financial firm, including brokerages. There used to be simple and clear lines of business that divided consumer banks, commercial banks, investment banks, brokerages, and credit companies. However, over the last 20 years they've all gotten into each others' businesses, so that the collapse of a brokerage like Lehman is similar or worse in impact than a bank like Wachovia.

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    AV .

    Reminds me of the antiwar sit-ins from the 60's.

    I'm not surprised that everyone has a different story. We all lost a lot in the financial meltdown and now we know that the banks gambled our collective future away with a nod and a wink from our government officials.

    I think OWS is like the Tea Party because they are protesting, but they have different motivations. OWS really doesn't have a clear message yet. Looking at some of the protests in NY, it looks like a prolonged Woodstock kind of event.

    It'll be interesting to see what they do when it gets cold out.

    AV

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    CharlieSpencer

    I haven't lost a penny yet.

    No, I'm not getting as much interest on my savings deposits, but that's not losing money. That's just not making as much as before.

    My 401K is down, but that money isn't 'lost' until I begin to draw it, and that won't be for another decade, at least. With the company's 25% match, I'm still ahead even after the market drops.

    The value of my home is off a couple of percent, but I had the good economic sense to not let someone talk me into a house I couldn't afford, and I owe about 80% of what it's worth. I'm not even out that couple of percent until I sell, but since I never planned on turning it over as an profit-generating venture, I can easily afford to wait until it recovers.

    Indeed, since I refinanced two years ago, I have MORE money available each month. Does that put me in the 1%? No, but not everyone in the remaining 99% has suffered.

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    AV .

    I don't understand what you mean when you say the money isn't lost until you begin to draw it. Your 401k lost value whether you draw from it or not.

    My 401k lost almost a third of its value. Ten years worth of gains wiped out. I didn't lose the money I put in or that my employer matched, but I might as well have stuffed the money in the mattress.

    I've owned my house for many years and don't live over my head, so I didn't lose there. I just won't make as much when I sell.

    Unlike you, I don't have so many years to make up for the losses to my 401k and I'm pretty angry about it. I want to see the people that caused this nightmare brought to justice.

    AV

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    DelbertPGH

    I'm afraid the idiot bankers could not have made all those bad loans without a much larger bunch of eager idiots (i.e., all of us citizens) willing to sign the contracts. We borrowed the money they were lending.

    I think that there was a decline in public morals over the last few decades. As a people, Americans used to live closer to their budgets, and as a country, we did more as a community. Now it seems to all boil down to how much you can get and how much you can spend. To recall the catchphrase of Gordon Gecko, greed, for lack of a better word, is bad.

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    JamesRL

    Even though we couldn't make those loans ourselves. Our banking regulations are pretty tight, and those kinds of mortgages are just not legal or available.

    But our banks can invest in the US, and at their height of the boom, were investing heavily in US mortgage backed securities.

    None of our banks went under, not even close, but some did lose a fair chunk of change, and since banks are a favorite of pension fund managers, we all lost.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    That many of the Sub Prime Loans where offered to people who should have qualified for more Main Stream Loans without the massive Jump in Repayments that occur in the Sub Prime Type Loans that proved their demise.

    The reason that these people where sold Sub Prime Loans instead of the more conventional Housing Loans was because it allowed the lending Agency namely the Bank to make much more money than they otherwise would have on what are conventional Home Loans.

    Sub Prime Home Loans where levered on the premise that Home Prices would continue to rise around 10% per annum which is part way believable in the short term over 5 years maybe but Unbelievable in the Long Term. If it was realistic any dwelling in any of the major cities in Europe would cost well in excess of a Billion $ with a average 3% increase in value from the time it was first developed till now. Over the past few years to 2007 the price increases where far in excess of that 3% Increase but it was only a matter of time till a Price Drop was encountered which had to happen because it's simply not possible to have House prices continually increasing in value.

    Even in the US if House Prices where to increase by 3% per annum with a starting cost of 50 cents when the land was first developed the older cities would have house prices far in excess of a Million $ per dwelling for the average home dwellings not the mansions. The mansions on the other hand would be in excess of a Billion $ and continually rising.

    Anyone with half an ounce of brains can see that this is an impossible situation which immediately ruled out the Banks Lending Managers as to them "Long Term" is a 6 month period on the Trading Floor not even the average 25 Year Home Loan Life which to them was inconceivable that any loan could last that long, even though they continued to offer loans over that period of time they just believed that they would be paid off within a few years.

    Of course for Housing Prices to increase at that level the CPI would have to increase accordingly and the Average Pay Packets of workers would need to also increase which they simply do not.

    Col

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    jp85257

    You gambled with the stock market for your 401k and lost POTENTIAL earnings. You admit that you haven't actually lost any money and even made money since your employer matched your donations.

    Just what would you consider to be a fair punishment for those that have "wronged" you? Can I insist on the same punishments for the owners of the casinos when I gamble and lose?

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    AnsuGisalas

    then, that there is no financial crisis, now?
    And that there are no victims, either?

    The perpetraitors are still growing fat on this, strangling production sectors in their money-for-nothing frenzy.

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    jp85257

    But anyone with any sense at all would understand that the 401k's are going to fluctuate. I can guarantee that no one was complaining when their 401k's were artificially inflated. They only complain when they lost the supposed gains.

    They are also the type that bought houses they couldn't afford at prices much higher than the house was worth because they thought they could flip it in a few months and make tons of money.

    They gambled with the stock market and the housing market and lost. I can't think of a single reported instance where someone proved that they were forced to invest in a 401k or buy an overpriced home.

    You never hear the people with 401k's mention that they've actually profited because their employers matched funds. You also never hear about the the tax savings that the 401k created for all of those years that donation were made.

    People need to stop playing the victim card and accept the fact that they made bad investment choices.

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    AnsuGisalas

    So you'll not find an argument from me on that.
    But there are still people who should be tried for crimes relating to the creation of this mess. The big investment houses seem to have been committing accounting fraud to boost the values of their derivatives, worsening the problem. They also seem to have advised people to buy a product they themselves were hedging against, so, giving advice they'd not follow themselves, advice they knew to be wrong.
    Obama apparently hired the crooks for his administration - I guess you'll be happy to hear that

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    CharlieSpencer

    There is indeed a crisis. There are 'victims', although many of them are at least partially responsible for their situation. My only debate was with your assertion that we 'all' suffered.

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    AnsuGisalas

    I never said we all suffered, that was another person!

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    DelbertPGH

    Hey, JP: My cousin's 401k, as an example, was rich enough to let him plan on retiring at age 60, when his sons were entering college. Since 2007-2008 revised his savings downward, he's planning to work until 67. As you say, potential losses, so nothing really disappeared, except illusions he had about taking some years off while his body was still in good condition.

    Employers match 401k contributions in lieu of contributing to a pension plan. Don't know if you're old enough to remember pensions. They worked a lot like Social Security.

    The conditions under which money (excuse me, market value) was lost were not over heated stock markets. There was an over heated real estate market, residential <u>and</u> commercial, which was all financed with borrowed money, which was all converted to bonds. It was a situation in which, over a period of a few months, banks realized that many of those bonds would be more valuable in the bathroom than in their vaults, and that several trillion dollars might need to be marked off the books. Banks stopped lending, even to each other. Some of the most durable financial firms in the world failed, or sold themselves to competitors, or borrowed unprecedented enormous sums from the U.S. Treasury. The auction rate securities market, which thrived for 20 years, went from $200 billion to zero in three weeks in February 2008, and has not come back. The problem was global, and the world was looking at a hole the likes of which hadn't been seen since 1930. The stock market, like everything else, crashed. It took a third of my retirement savings, too, incidentally.

    It's good that you bring up the example of casinos, and compare them to banks, and ask if you can blame the owners for losing when you gamble. The world financial system can be turned into a casino, but that's a bad deal for everyone. Bankers have a fiduciary responsibility to behave in the public interest, because they live off everybody else's money, and can destroy the prosperity of a generation in a fit of greed. Bankers should be able to sit on that pile of money and get rich, just so-so rich; not three houses/three ex-wives/two mistresses/five cars/yacht/plane/ski chalet-rich.

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    AV .

    I have a conservative 401k and it still lost 1/3 of its value in the downturn. It isn't gambling. I'm not a day trader or playing slot machines in a casino. It is pretty much the gold standard 401k balanced portfolio that most people have. The reason you invest in a 401k through your employer is to make money on the investment.

    The people that swindled everyone should go to jail. Just like Bernie Madoff. Instead, they're still out there doing what they do best, swindling other people out of their hard earned money.

    How can you defend people like Bernie Madoff?

    AV

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    jp85257

    but dealing with the stock market IS gambling. And your portfolio is only worth what you can convert to cold hard cash at any particular time. Just because your quarterly report showed a certain number for your "earnings" doesn't mean that you will have that value when you are allowed to pull the money out without penalty (obviously).

    I'm not defending people like Madoff but there's a big difference between jailing someone who swindled people and wanting to jail someone who didn't break any actual laws just because your net worth changed; at least on paper. Doing business in a way that may be detrimental to your customers is not always illegal.

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    DelbertPGH

    The stock market and the bond markets are "gambles", in the sense that prices fluctuate. You don't put in your money with the feeling you're playing roulette, though. The worth of your investments should grow over time, as the overall American economy grows. There are laws about the way companies are run: company officers are held by federal and state laws to operate as fiduciaries for their shareholders' interests. It's possible (as with Enron, which was once the seventh largest company in the U.S. by stock market value) for crooks and sharpies to take over a company and line their own pockets, or just make foolish bets, and ruin the company and the owners (i.e., shareholders.) That's illegal. Crookedness in business will drive out honesty, and we have laws against irresponsible behavior, to save capitalism (and owners of stock) from the inescapable bad side of human nature.

    Except, JP, it would seem from your defense that you would excuse banks from responsibility. Boys will be boys and capitalists will be capitalists, and working people ought to just keep their head down and work and save and invest, in the awareness that it's a complete gamble and they could lose every cent. Don't be surprised if the American people revolt against that deal, if it continues to sour on them. Here's what the last anti-Republican revolt looked like: between 1930 and 1936, in four elections, the House of Representatives went from 270 Republican members to 103, and the Senate from 56 to 25 (in an time when there were only 96 senators.)

    Incidentally, I'll remind you that it's every big Republican's dream to privatize Social Security. That means turning the old age safety net into 401k plans, gambling everything on the stock market, and not counting on government. I can imagine at retirement parties, instead of a gold watch, the guy being pushed out the door gets a revolver and one bullet.

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    jp85257

    Delbert, you claim that's illegal? Show me a specific law that prevents businesses from making poor business decisions.

    Thousands of businesses go bankrupt each year because of poor business decisions or just plain ineptness. Do you actually believe that these people are breaking the law and should be arrested?

    I'm all for locking up anyone who breaks the law or swindles people, but I don't think we have enough jail cells to lock people up because they're stupid or greedy.

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    AV .

    "The stock market and the bond markets are "gambles", in the sense that prices fluctuate. You don't put in your money with the feeling you're playing roulette, though."

    I never expected to lose 1/3 of my 401k investment with less than 10 years till retirement, especially to absolute fraud.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18560_162-4546199.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody

    Read this article about what happened and then tell me how you don't feel outraged at how these people played with our investments. We can't ever have this happen again and there has to be penalties even if its only public shame.

    AV

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    jp85257

    from the link you provided:

    "It would have been illegal during most of the 20th century under the gaming laws, but in 2000, Congress gave Wall Street an exemption and it has turned out to be a very bad idea."

    So no laws were broken as I've mentioned before. The real culprits in this is the Government. The bankers were just playing the game with the rules they were given. So, what we need to do is remove all the members of Congress who let this happen. They're the ones ultimately responsible for you and others (including myself) losing most, if not all of our 401k earnings.

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    AV .

    (From the 60 Minutes article) "It would have been illegal during most of the 20th century under the gaming laws, but in 2000, Congress gave Wall Street an exemption and it has turned out to be a very bad idea."

    Theres a bigger issue here that involves business practices and morals. The whole thing is wrong . I don't want to do business with people like that. I want to at least know who feasted on the carrion. Who is low enough to invest in whether a mortgage will fail or not.

    AV

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    jp85257

    You're on a very slippery slope when you start talking about what is moral and what isn't. Who's set of morals should we use as the standard to decide if a particular bank was using moral business practices?

    It's either legal or illegal. What they did should have still been illegal but Congress stepped in. Now, in all fairness, they probably changed the law due to banking lobbying, but the law was changed. The lobbying problem in our Government is a whole different discussion.

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    DelbertPGH

    A lot of poor business decisions are not against any law, but do violate a fiduciary relationship. Stockholders can sue in civil court. Other bad decisions <u>do</u> violate actual laws, such as the fraudulent companies that the executives of Enron set up to hide their bad bets, and from which they also embezzeled funds. A lot of the laws are highly technical, tough for anybody who doesn't have a background in managerial or financial accounting to understand. Likewise, the stock regulations of the SEC, which are mainly aimed at preventing crooks from selling stock at values inflated by fraud or undisclosed information. Lots of things are regulated very closely; other things, very little.

    The bank I work for is answerable to the Federal Reserve, the Office of the Controller of the Currency, and a whole bunch of other regulators that have the force of law behind them. I can happily say we did not get exposed to the kind of risk that sank Washington Mutual, Lehman, or AIG. We weren't so much highly moral as our business plan didn't put us in the way of that sort of risk.

    The CBS story was about derivatives, which were extra frosting on the cake, but not the cake itself. The scandalous mess with AIG's credit default swaps was bad enough to sink the company, but not bad enough to wreck the whole economy the way it did. The swaps were bad for AIG because the bonds that the swaps insured (swaps are bond insurance, and guarantee the bond's value) were rotten, and they were rotten because all the real estate in America and Europe was overvalued, and the middle-income consumers of this country were borrowed up to the ears on everything else as well.

    Making too much money available to real estate just drives up the price of existing homes, and causes new more homes to be built than the economy actually needs. That's the story of all asset bubbles, an abiding problem of capitalist economies. "Too much" and "actual need" are difficult terms to define. You have to trust to bank regulators to raise interest rates or capital ratios (the amount a bank must actually keep on hand, versus loaning out) in line with their wise judgement of what's good for the economy, and clamp down on the money supply when stuff goes wild. You have to have a Congress that doesn't put the squeeze on regulators when their favorite bankers/contributors want to get richer. And you have to have that Congress pass laws that make deals transparent and illegalize some activity. Congress has to have the guts to pass regulation all the time, because bankers keep working out new kinds of stupid deals that aren't defined in the older laws, like designer drug makers.

    Capitalism is the most successful and dynamic system in the world. It won't work without government regulation, though, because every so often it will cut off its own legs and serve them to the other end for dessert.

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    Michael Jay

    is that the current value is down, but as the market recovers, and hopefully it will that money will be recovered.

    If you pull it out now you will be losing money, till then it is a paper loss, not a real loss of money.

    It will only be a real loss if the market does not recover.

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    AV .

    You're starting with a 401k that has the same amount it did in the year 2000. You would have made more money if you kept your savings in a basic savings account.

    True, if you pull the money out now, you will never be able to recover those losses. Still, if you can't trust a 401k anymore because of swindlers in our banking system, how is it really a worthwhile investment anymore? How can you trust that it won't happen again?

    AV

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    CharlieSpencer

    "if you can't trust a 401k anymore because of swindlers in our banking system,"

    You could never 'trust' a 401k in the first place.

    "You would have made more money if you kept your savings in a basic savings account."

    Not against inflation.

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    AV .

    If you invest in stable funds, you shouldn't lose your money. If you invest in aggressive funds, its always a possibility.

    Companies offer these tax shelters and you should be able to trust that you're not going to get soaked by what they're offering if you choose stable investments.

    Maybe your savings account wouldn't be enough against inflation, but at least you know your money will be there.

    AV

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    AnsuGisalas

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej-rN1gnMV8

    I think it's interesting. He's a smart guy, and he has good solutions for some of the problems.
    "Eat your own dog food"...

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    He believes that Greed is Bad so he can not be a True Free Enterprise Follower.

    You should be able to do as you like without any Restriction so you can make a profit.

    It's simply outrageous that he believes in the idea that allowing a 747 Pilot to fly drunk is unacceptable. If anyone wants to make money they should be able to do as they please when they please without any interference from Government.

    There is no justification for Government to Restrict Anything ever under any circumstances. True Free Enterprise allows Companies to do as they please when they please and they just have to have Government Contracts at their Unsupervised pricing. How dare any Government expect to get a Fair Deal from Private Enterprise and pay a reasonable profit when Private Enterprise should get at least a 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% Profit on all Government Contracts.

    Of course the same Private Enterprise Entities would feel justifiably aggrieved when their Home Country is invaded as the Government failed to protect them from their countries enemies and there is no excuse that the Government in question simply lacked the necessary funds to buy their products.

    True "Free Enterprise" allows companies to do as they please when they please without restriction but with the full protection of the Government even if in the process the Government goes broke.

    What would happen next someone will say that Companies have a Responsibility to the Countries that the work from? :^0 :^0 :^0

    Col [/sarcasm]

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    AnsuGisalas

    I haven't but it sounds like it'd be fun to watch

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    But you had better bet I'm trying to source a copy locally here.

    Col

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    AnsuGisalas

    There's a trailer for it at the movie home page... http://www.sonyclassics.com/insidejob/
    Seems that as hopeless as Sony are at security, they're ok at content.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Sony seems to have security in place well enough so you can not download the movie.

    Col

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    hippiekarl

    I only recently finished WSJ's James B. Stewart's 'Den of Thieves', an account of the Boesky/Milken 'junk bond financing' leverage scams. Even with Drexel and MerrillLynch gone, the same crooks are still working the games at Goldman Sachs, First Boston, and others. To these crooks the 'value' of a company (or these days, a mortgage portfolio) is not what revenue it produces over time, but what it can be dismantled and sold off in pieces for to the next sucker down the line. I love seeing banks take each other to court every time the music stops and one of them's still holding the ol' diaper bag of artificial, uncollectable debt.

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    cheesel_z

    Why protest now? And why Wall Street? They should be occupying the land around the Capitol Building, espectially around Barney 'Hot Bottom' Frank's office.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Coz the crisis is still going on?
    Coz the idiocy that created the crisis is still going on, on wall street?
    It is.

    Legislators are just middle men. They're following orders from Wall Street.
    Follow the money.

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    jck

    The big chiefs who got bailed out...are still giving themselves and each other (as each others' board members) huge raises.

    Want to know why you're paying more for television? For your bank account? Gas at the pump?

    Go read the CNN Money report about the "20 Biggest CEO pay raises" from 2010. Shocking how companies who are still "rebounding" are giving away $10Ms in options and $1M+ pay raises to their CEOs.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Let the brokers and the top execs receive incentives ONLY, if those incentives are tied to the direct value of their decisions, long term.
    Say, sure, they get their bonuses, but they get them as bonds that can't be sold for five years, and the value is indexed to the crap they've sold others all (this) year.

    That would get them thinking...

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    CharlieSpencer

    I suspect most of those options and bonuses are guaranteed in contracts that were written before 2008.

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    jp85257

    is to buy some shares in the company and then make your feelings known during the shareholders meetings.

    Companies will pay what they think they have to to get the right executives in place. Hiring anyone is a gamble. If they make good decisions and get good executives the company grows and everyone makes money. If they hire a loser, they lose money and their gamble failed. They pay what they need to to get rid of him and move on.

    Companies aren't going to listen to someone gripe about executive compensation when the gripers don't have a stake in the company and IMHO, they shouldn't.

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    AV .

    Everyone had no idea what would happen after the 2008 collapse. We know now that we all lost wealth, jobs, houses and everything else during the downturn. Thats why people are protesting.

    Wall St. represents greedy capitalists. I think they didn't get to the Capitol building yet, but its on the itinerary.

    AV

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    santeewelding

    They'll be dragging out the rich hiding in drain pipes...

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    AnsuGisalas

    they've even got Bloomberg's bloomers in a bunch.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    The moment that the Pollies realize that they are not in control like they believe they are the better we all are.

    Col

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    AnsuGisalas

    What with the temper fits, screaming and wailing, vomiting white stuff and soiling their bloomers.

    Depending on their ability to recognize the degree to which they don't control things

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    AV .

    I'm still not sure where this movement is going yet, but I think its about time that our government and corporations be held accountable for the state of the economy now and the financial collapse of 2008. These people are determined to bring all of the injustices to light. I think they are a group that can't be ignored.

    http://occupywallst.org/

    AV

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    jp85257

    I found this post on a blog. I couldn't agree with her more.

    Life isn't fair. The concept of justice - that everyone should be treated fairly - is a worthy and worthwhile moral imperative on which our nation was founded. But
    justice and economic equality are not the same. Or, as Mick Jagger said, "You can't always get what you want."

    No matter how you try to "level the playing field," some people have better luck, skills, talents or connections that land them in better places. Some seem to have
    all the advantages in life but squander them, others play the modest hand they're dealt and make up the difference in hard work and perseverance, and some find jobs on Wall Street and eventually buy houses in the Hamptons. Is it fair? Stupid question.

    Nothing is "free." Protesting with signs that seek "free" college degrees and "free" health care make you look like idiots, because colleges and hospitals don't operate on rainbows and sunshine. There is no magic money machine to tap for your meandering educational careers and "slow paths" to adulthood, and the 53 percent of taxpaying Americans owe you neither a degree nor an annual physical.

    While I'm pointing out this obvious fact, here are a few other things that are not free: overtime for police officers and municipal workers, trash hauling, repairs
    to fixtures and property, condoms, Band-Aids and the food that inexplicably appears on the tables in your makeshift protest kitchens. Real people with real dollars are underwriting your civic temper tantrum.

    Your word is your bond. When you demonstrate to eliminate student loan debt, you are advocating precisely the lack of integrity you decry in others. Loans are made based on solemn promises to repay them. No one forces you to borrow money; you are free to choose educational pursuits that don't require loans, or to seek technical or vocational training that allows you to support yourself and your ongoing educational goals. Also, for the record, being a college student is not a
    state of victimization. It's a privilege that billions of young people around the globe would die for --- literally.

    A protest is not a party. On Saturday in New York, while making a mad dash from my cab to the door of my hotel to avoid you, I saw what isn't evident in the
    newsreel footage of your demonstrations: Most of you are doing this only for attention and fun. Serious people in a sober pursuit of social and political change
    don't dance jigs down Sixth Avenue like attendees of a Renaissance festival. You look foolish, you smell gross, you are clearly high and you don't seem to realize
    that all around you are people who deem you irrelevant.

    There are reasons you haven't found jobs. The truth? Your tattooed necks, gouged ears, facial piercings and dirty dreadlocks are off-putting. Nonconformity for the sake of nonconformity isn't a virtue. Occupy reality: Only 4 percent of college graduates are out of work. If you are among that 4 percent, find a mirror and face the problem. It's not them. It's you.

    By Marybeth Hicks

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    CharlieSpencer

    or, alternatively, never read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".

    "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch."

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    AnsuGisalas

    Especially in commodity economies.

    The never-never-land qualities of modern money however makes "free" seem a lot less impossible, by comparison.

    The creators of this financial crisis tapped into this "impossibility of the dollar", and they'll keep trying to "get it right" until someone musters the balls to kick the crap out of them.
    What are they after? Free money.

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    jp85257

    A union sponsored, Soros funded spectacle with paid protesters. That will REALLY open up good conversations about the economy and jobs.

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    AV .

    Its about disgust for our current system by the little people in this country that lost a lot. Its a gut level, honest protest about the state of our country. Its just the beginning.

    AV

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    jp85257

    It IS just the beginning. With the likes of Obama, Pelosi, and Sharpton fanning the flames, we'll soon have riots in the streets, giving them the perfect opportunity to force more of their agenda down our throats without giving us a chance to vote on anything. They'll take away even more of our rights on the pretense of "protecting us".

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    With the Likes of Palin, Rick Santorum, Donald Trump & Co they would cause Riots in the Streets if they ever rose to a position of Power.

    Though personally I do not believe that State Sanctioned Genocide against Peaceful people who's only crime is to disagree with those in power actually constitutes a Riot. Though I suppose them attempting to run away as the State Sponsored Uniformed Terrorists try to kill them is completely unacceptable as it would expand the Collateral Damage to a greater area. But these proposed Leaders have good teachers in Lenin, Starlin, the current Governments of Lebanon & Syria, and so on. Anyone who dares to disagree with leaders like these needs to be Exterminated.

    After all it would have to be Treason in their Eyes for someone to disagree with them so they would feel perfectly happy to Order in the National Guard with Orders to Shoot to Kill all those who peacefully disagree with them.

    As all these supposed leaders are Right by Birth and can do no wrong can they? :^0

    Obviously the Riff Raff who disagree with them are the Rabble than need to trampled underfoot and destroyed for the Good of the Country as how dare anyone disagree with their views on anything.

    Remember Greed is Good. :^0 :^0 :^0

    Col [/sarcasm]

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    Ed Woychowsky

    Remember, it's only treason if you fail. If you succeed, you're a patriot.

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    AV .

    Our federal government doesn't get anything done for the people of this country. They don't represent the people of this country, they represent big money interests.

    There are a lot of us riff raff around. Just think what a big voice we can have if we unite.

    AV

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    Ed Woychowsky

    They could always try what was done in the books if they thought that they were about to lose power.

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    AV .

    I think we should collect all the politicians and send them to carousel instead.

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    over and done with, I say.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    What's wrong with having a bit of Fun and getting a Good Laugh at the ramblings of some?

    After my posts here some may even believe that I like some Politicians. :^0 :^0 :^0

    Col

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    Ed Woychowsky

    With a side of onion rings?

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Is if you are silly enough to listen to the Pollies you'll start to pity them very quickly and when that happens the ROT gone beyond the ability to remove stage.

    The silly fools actually think what they do is important and that they actually do something constructive when they are actually just Impotent Fools who we tolerate because we can not stand the thought of them being able to mingle with the General Public.

    It's better to have them locked up in their Parliament Houses thinking that they are Important and hence leave the real people in peace to attempt to live our lives without Interference.

    Col

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    AV .

    Neither side represents the people. They all represent Corporate America and Wall St. That's what the problem is.

    There's a difference between partnering with business in a joint venture and accepting huge campaign donations to influence policy direction from wealthy donors.

    AV

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    seanferd

    It worked for the other guys, didn't it?

    Actually, I don't think anything will be forced down your throat, though. Except Obama continuing to uphold the crap that was put in place before he was teh Prez.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    The Racist Bigots that make up the Tea Party.

    But the reality here is that the people who are involved in the Wall St Protest are all Commies. They refuse to believe that Greed is Good and that Private Enterprise is the best thing since sliced bread.

    Shock Horror they even believe that 1% of the population shouldn't hold 90% of the wealth and 99% of the Population should at best have access to 1% of the countries wealth that they maintain.

    Obviously Communist Beliefs as there is no other possibility possible.

    Col [/Sarcasm]

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    dhays

    The head of the C Party USA spoke to the Occupy Chicago rally and many in the crowd applauded and agreed with what was said.

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    AV .

    I'd like to see it.

    AV

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    AV .

    I guess they just wanted to have their voices heard.

    AV

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    seanferd

    Can't beat that with a stick.

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    seanferd

    Or is it a priori wrong because a communist said it?

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    boxfiddler Moderator

    that I've seen touting that angle. Care to offer up some links?

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    You know the Old Story.

    Never let the Truth get in the road of a Good Story. All you need do is say a Lie often enough for some to start to believe it, God I see that in the Media all of the time they say that they Report Stories when they are actually pushing their Own Agenda and Making Up what they want to report.

    If enough people sprout that Lie on places like Tweeber where the Twits hang out I'm sure that you'll get some Idiot from the Main Stream Media Report it as Fact possibly Fox News? After all what they have has never been described as News just Entertainment.

    Though honestly that does kind of worry me that Light Entertainment can be passed off as News and not many question the motives of the Crowd doing it.

    Now let me tell you how those members of the Evil Press in Opposition to Rupert Bare, Hacked Rupert's Phone and passed all of the nasty stories to it to be reported in the News of the World.

    Poor Little Rupert Bare is the Victim here of a Hostile Takeover, you'll be able to read that soon on Tweeber and the Twits there will believe it.

    See it's all a Big Conspiracy to discredit Rupert Bare and take over his Organization. He's the Victim here not the Bad Guy who will do anything to make money. :^0 :^0 :^0

    See tell the same lie often enough and some one somewhere will eventually believe it.

    Col

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    jp85257

    Look at how often you hear:

    "The Racist Bigots that make up the Tea Party" without anything to back up the statement.

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    CharlieSpencer

    One of the Tea Party's problems is that it isn't really a party. It's preferred decentralized approach allows anyone to claim he is the leader or spokesman for a local branch. The more outlandish his position, the more media attention he's going to receive, especially internationally.

    There are several small but vocal groups from the extreme right wing that have entered their floats in the Tea Party's parade. These include survivalists, neo-Nazis, 'White rights', secessionists, etc. They're not necessarily typical of the movement as a whole, but there's no central organization to distance itself from them.

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    jp85257

    So far they've garnered support from the American Nazi Party, Socialist Party USA, Communist Party USA, and Red China among others.

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    CharlieSpencer

    I didn't say it about OWS because I was unaware of the 'support' you cited.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Or have members of OWS set themselves up as spokespersons for OWS?
    Palmetto said the teabaggers were having these problems (of spokepersons which cannot be rejected, because there is no authority to deny them), not that they were in trouble for receiving support from unwanted sources.

    If OWS sticks to a single message (unlike the tea party, which seems to have an ever diversifying agenda), they won't have those same problems. Anyone speaking outside the message will have cut themselves out.

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    jp85257

    "If OWS sticks to a single message (unlike the tea party, which seems to have an ever diversifying agenda)".

    Just what is the single message that OWS is supposedly sticking to? I've listened to dozens and dozens of interviews and most of the people don't have a clue why they're there.

    And if you're going to continue to call the Tea Party, "teabaggers", please start referring to OWS as "fleabaggers". It's only fair.

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    AnsuGisalas

    No message can't be hijacked.
    Anyway, I dunno where I saw the "teabagger" nickname, but I thought it's a fun historical pun. What with carpets and whatnot.

    Fleabaggers? How about Scumbaggers? After all the 99 to 1 % thing sets the riff-raff scene nicely.

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    jp85257

    the "teabagger" moniker is referring to an obscure sexual practice. You know, the kind that only liberals would engage in. ;-)

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    AnsuGisalas

    I think you just have your mind in the gutter.

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    jp85257

    you obviously don't listen to MSNBC.

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    seanferd

    The idea would be to not let them hijack anything positive.

    Corporations are a bad idea, and bad in practice. So is the deregulated financial and trading sector. If the Nazis thing "teh ebul Joos" are in control, well, that's their problem. If the OWS as a whole starts going "mmm, Nazis, yum!", then you have a point.

    Coomunists - what are there, like five of them? Oooh, scary dangerous! Dial up McCarthy so he can invent some more to hunt down.

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    seanferd

    You realize that was a self-adopted name of the teabaggers before they figured out there was another use for the concept of "teabag", right?

    It's one of the reasons they are so amusing.

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    AnsuGisalas

    gutter-thinking aside, that's what the -bagger suffix in a political context of the USA triggers first and foremost, at least for me it did.

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    CharlieSpencer

    What is OWS's message? 'I'm mad as **** and I'm not gonna take it any more!' will only go so far. It's great for venting the spleen and whipping up a crowd, but by itself it won't result in action or change.

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    jp85257

    Just because someone here posts that Tea Partiers gave themselves that name doesn't make it true.

    Liberals have been trying to discredit them since day one and haven't accomplished anything other than make themselves look foolish.

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    hippiekarl

    1) The Tea 'Party', who point out Soros $ aiding OWS, are themselves the creation of, and beholden to, the infamous Koch Bros.
    2) I humbly suggest 'Wallbangers' for OWS's colloquial moniker....

    "Thanks; I'll hang up and listen".....*click*

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    That would be posted and it would break TR completely.

    But if you want to look with Open Eyes just pickup any Mass Media Publication and read it. You'll find the necessary information to prove that they are Raciest Bigots.

    I don't need to post links to what is the Bleeding Obvious to anyone with even half a Lobotomized head.

    Now that we have finished with that lot of scum lets start on the rest of the waste of space Politicians.

    Col :^0 :^0

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    jp85257

    all those people of other colors that attend the Tea Party meetings would be shocked to find out they're all racists.

    Maybe, it's just the publications you subscribe to.

    BTW, did you know if you say the word "guacamole" real slow, it sounds just like you're saying "gullible"?

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    In the Main Stream Media.

    As a person who Hates ALL Politicians I don't give any of them the smallest chance to warp my mind with their misguided beliefs and downright Bull _Shit. Just listen what the so called Members of the Tea Party say they want to achieve and it's very hard to believe that they are anything but what they are.

    Of course if you are a fully Lobotomized Fool who believes that Politicians are there for our own good and firmly believe the saying Hi I'm from the Government and I'm here to help you. There is no hope as not even the Gullible believe that crap.

    Once upon a Time in a Galaxy Far Far away I was involved in the starting of a Community Group and the Loonies that crawled out of the woodwork attempting to Hijack that Organizations Agenda for their own ends had to be seen to be believed.

    Needless to say getting rid of the Loonies and Red Necks was the easy part as once they even looked as if that crowd had been involved no one took any notice of the Organization again and just dismissed them as Fringe Loonies.

    It took 2 years to get back to where we where before that first Open Meeting which was open the the public where groups like the Confederate Action Party, Survivalists, neo-Nazis, 'White rights', secessionists, etc. We even had members of Shin Fein wanting to join.

    When you let it be known that you associate with those type of people you are shot before you begin and unless you do something to stop them hijacking your Agenda which the Tea Party Has Not you get exactly what you deserve.

    If you are happy to be associated with those people to get Press Coverage you are a Racist Bigot who deserves no second thought.

    Basically if you do nothing to prevent that type of Person/Organization from representing you and actively encourage them to you are ignored from the very beginning as a Dangerous Bunch of Fringe Radicals who need to be shut down at best and left alone to stew in their own juices normally.

    Just remember that the Brown Shirts in Germany expounded exactly the same beliefs as the Reported Tea Party does now and look where that took us all for a lovely ride. You want to associate with Loonies you get exactly what you deserve. :^0

    Of course if you care to post links to the Tea Party decrying the comments that have been made in it's name I'm all ears but currently they don't exist. As things currently stand the Tea Party Group is nothing more than Media _Whores who will say anything to see their names in the Press.

    Col

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    jp85257

    So, you rely on the MSM for your information? No wonder you're so misinformed. The only accurate reporting on the MSM is sports scores and they even get those wrong on occasion.

    You hate politicians but want to give them even more control over your life? I guess that makes sense to a liberal.

    Here's a news flash for you: those "free" handouts they keep promising you aren't really free. I know that's confusing for someone who relies so heavily on the MSM, but it really is the truth.

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    CharlieSpencer

    All I'm hearing from this crowd is complaints. If they've offered a single viable suggestion, I haven't yet heard it. In this, they're not different from the Tea Party movement.

    I wonder how many of those in either movement is even registered to vote. Of that 99% they're so concerned with, only 71% were registered in 2008, and only 64% voted. The one-third of us that sit on our butts could easily out-vote that 1% this movement thinks is taking unfair advantage.

    http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p20-562.pdf

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    AnsuGisalas

    big corporate will buy whoever you voted into office

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    CharlieSpencer

    although I do question their deciding the legal entities have the same rights as people, and that donating money is equivalent to speech. I'll stick to my platform of changing campaign finance so that only those registered to vote in a district can donate money to its candidates. If you aren't a registered voter in Miami, you can't contribute to people running for mayor. If you aren't registered in Michigan, you can't donate to its gubernatorial or US senatorial candidates. (Why the **** is the governor of SC fund raising in NY???) You can only vote for one candidate in the primary and one in the general election, so you can only donate to one candidate in each of those contests.

    It will take a Constitutional amendment to override the Supremes' decisions. It would certainly save candidates all that fund raising they claim they abhor. It would also take corporation, unions, non-profits, etc. out of the game.

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    AnsuGisalas

    or at least make it harder for them.
    The republicans have gotten burned for doing campaign financing stunts to squirm out of even the present rules (DeLay, anyone?) ... so I guess they'll wanna at least try to screw over a new system as well...

    But other than that, it sounds really good.
    Occupy Wall street can probably be swung around to support that one, rumble it through.

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    jp85257

    No mention of any Democrats who have gotten burned for breaking campaign finance rules?

    Your bias is showing.

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    AnsuGisalas

    Come now, credit where due - DeLay was newsworthy!

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Politicians are Bastards who suck the life out of any country.

    They are the lowest scum on the face of the planet who do nothing and take the benefits of the uneducated who believe what they are told that Politicians are Important when that was a misprint and should have read Impotent Are worth the money you pay them as if any useless blood sucking leach is worth anything other than death Set the Direction that the Country Takes when they are really just engaged in Knee Jerk Reactions to what appears in the Mass Media.

    Get with the program and Exterminate the Entire Subspecies of **** Sapian, **** Politicius.

    That subspecies evolved from the Telephone Sanitizers and Market Researchers who where told that they where being sent away from their dieing planet to start a new world. When they left the planet returned to Life.

    The idea was to have then crash into any planet and all die. Unfortunately because several Market Researchers who worked on the exterior color of the Spaceship where involved in the project not all died when the ship crashed into Earth 6 thousand years ago and the rot has been going on ever since getting worse.

    So join the new Sport who's sole aim to to eradicate Politicians in any from from the face of the planet. If you join now you'll be able to compete in the 2012 Olympic Games Stalking and destroying Home Politicius. And if you really want to scare naughty little children you can cut off their heads have them stuffed and mounted and then hang them on your favorite wall.

    Though that may be considered as Cruel and Inhumane abuse for children but any sensible person.

    Col

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    AV .

    They don't have a clear message yet, but I think they will one day. I'd like to see them stay unaffiliated with either party. The Dems are trying to harness their anger, but I think both parties have already shown they aren't representing the interests of most of us.

    If they were, we would have jobs in this country, for anyone that wants to work. People that cheated all of us out of our retirement savings would be in prison.

    When I look at the people that are protesting, I see a lot of young people. I think that's good because the future is theirs. They have fancy educations, big student loans and jobs are just a dream. Maybe all of them didn't vote in 2008, but that could change given the state of our economy.

    There is too much voter apathy. People that don't vote don't understand that's all the power you have. In the end, voting or not, this country is still in the pits.

    AV

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Don't let silly little things like Facts get in the road of a Good Story.

    I read it on the Internet that the Occupy Wall St Group is a bunch of Anti American Commies so it must be true and everything that they push on the masses is lies. :^0

    Needless to say that the idea began in Spain with a group of Students Protesting about a Lack of Jobs and has spread World Wide but we'll not let silly Little Facts get in the road of a good story. :^0 :^0

    Col

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    jp85257

    From the first lines of your link:

    "Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands."

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    AnsuGisalas

    On the other hand, how else would you expect anyone to launch a nefarious plan?
    It's the oldest trick in the book:
    Day before D-day: "There is no Master Plan".
    Day after D-day: "What? You believed that?!?"

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    Ow.

    AnsuGisalas

    reading those comments hertz my brain!

    And the demands are dumb. No point in going after an end-stage in mid-struggle... or nascent struggle as it might be, if it doesn't peter out.

    Just go for a kill on the one thing that keeps the present system alive - citizen rights for corporate entities.

    Kill that. Then see what happens, adapting as you go.

    Shooting for the stars is a good way to land on one's ***.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    I have a lot of time for Demand 4 Free College Education.

    For a Leading Economy of the world where very little is any longer made this is a necessity. But the down side is a better educated population makes things harder for the Current Government to get away with or introduce silly Policy. Of course the same applies to the Current Opposition when they became the Government they have a harder time and if as the Current Opposition they introduce Silly Policies they get howled down just as quickly as the Current Government.

    Countries like South Korea who actively Push Higher Education onto their citizens have a distinct advantage as a Country when it comes to the New World Order where Technology is the Ruler and the low end nonpaying Jobs simply no longer exist.

    If you want to live in a High Technology Forward Facing Community you need to be both Highly Educated and Employed in a position that you can afford to Live on. That doesn't mean working for Minimum Wage in the Low End of the High Tech Society but a Living Wage so you can afford to actually live.

    That doesn't mean you need 4 Million per hour but it also doesn't mean you get $10.00 per hour when you need to be earning $60.00 just to buy food and pay rent.

    Without a Highly Educated Population the country can not move forward and will not make the most possible from the New World Order that is being pushed by Big Business.

    Col

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    jp85257

    "free college education". Is that tuition only? Books included? How about labs? Free entrance into the Saturday football game? Free parking? A free laptop? Free food in the cafeteria?

    I'm all for free college educations but only with the following condition: you have to qualify academically to get into college. Throw out all of the losers who are in college just to avoid having to go out in the real world and get a job. They are only distractions. Leave college for the best and brightest regardless of their financial situation.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    "free college education". Is that tuition only? defiantly not

    Books included? depends on the books but then again those that are out of date before the author finishes writing them should be done away with.

    How about labs? Depends on the Course being done. After all someone studding Humanities isn't going to need much of a Lab to begin with where as those Studding Atomic Physics most defiantly will need these.

    Free entrance into the Saturday football game? What's this got to do with anything but none the less Charge the **** out of them particularly those participating. Grid Iron Players = Brain Damaged Drooling Idiots who are a long term drain on the economy. Ice Hockey Players fall into the same league. Rugby Players = Thugs, Rugby League Players = Thugs who are not good enough to be Rugby Thugs, Aussie Rules = Thugs who are not good enough to be Rugby League Thugs, Soccer = Bad Actors. But none the less all are a drain on society so do everything possible to discourage them at every step.

    So in light of that most defiantly charge the **** out of them they are not productive members of Society so why should Society encourage them to be a drain on that Society?

    Free parking? Not really necessary if Proper Public Transport is available.

    A free laptop? Again depends on the course. After all those who study Humanities are not quite in the same League as those studding for instance Nuclear Medicine.

    However if the Education Authorities made their Own NB like those proposed in India that would cost between $25.00 and $50.00 each it's not much of a stretch to buy one is it? Dump the Free Enterprise Model where Business does everything possible to get as much money as possible out of each and every student while supplying them with Education Equipment that far exceeds the required use of the course.

    Free food in the cafeteria? Most defiantly for all Medical Students and Football Players. That way the Medical Students can have first hand experience of dangerous Food Practices and just maybe a few Brain Damaged/Thugs will be removed from the Gene Pool.

    Personally I would probably go a lot further Get Rid of the Useless Courses that the only possible job resulting from doing them is to teach that course to others. After all Wallmart doesn't need people with BA's to stick iPads on shelves does it?

    Society Needs productive members not those who are a drain on it and those who do the Easy useless courses fall into that Category as well as those who teach them.

    you have to qualify academically to get into college. I have no problems with that provided you get rid of the useless easy courses. if you keep them then you should let anyone and their dog in.

    Throw out all of the losers who are in college just to avoid having to go out in the real world and get a job. Sports Players and particularly those on Sports Scholarships and Useless Courses like Business Management? Though if the Cafeteria Food poisons the Sports People/Humanities Students that may just prove very useful to the Medical Students and they would be another source of Free Fodder for the Medical Students studies. :^0

    Leave college for the best and brightest regardless of their financial situation. . I completely agree but you have to get rid of the Useless Courses first.

    Col

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    jp85257

    The best and brightest would never enroll in those classes. They were only created to give the mental midgets enough credits to stay in school, push the liberal agenda, or give a tenured professor a sandbag job so they can keep collecting paychecks..

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    AnsuGisalas

    Yeah! Like, whoever needs to speak Chinese, eh?

    On the other hand, I'm fine with it if English speaking countries abolish humanities education... I'd be able to charge more'n a medical doctor for my transgrokification services.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    But I've seen far too many people with a Humanities Degree selling junk Furniture in A Mart. That's the AU equivalent of Wall Mart in the states but more limited in what they sell. Not even a high end well paying job just minimum wages and no future.

    Here they go to Uni run up a massive Hex Bill for their Degree and then don't have any job that they can do to make use of that degree.

    That to me is a Waste of Education and a Pointless Exercise.

    But if you just want a Eduminacition to say that you have a "Batular's" I suppose it's OK though to me there are far cheaper ways to Big Note Yourself.

    OH and BTW don't you already charge more than most Doctors for your work? I certainly do.

    Col

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    AnsuGisalas

    While I can charge what I want, I'd like someone to agree to pay my price as well
    But yeah, I was enrolled in a masters programme which turned out to lead exactly nowhere, so I do know what you mean. Not riding that canoe no more

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    jp85257

    We all know that the only way to learn a foreign language is to go to a four year university.

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    AnsuGisalas

    just like it takes a four year university study to learn to work computers.

    It's all the same buddy. Some victims are just easier than others.

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    jp85257

    Was that Master Program in debating? From your posts I always thought you were a Master Debater. ;-)

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    AnsuGisalas

    See, from your posts I always got the impression that you'd like to be a Master Byter, but for a hardware/software dysfunction.

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    CharlieSpencer

    Many of his repeat customers were Master Baiters.

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    CharlieSpencer

    There's no reason to discuss in detail a list the movement itself disavows.

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    AnsuGisalas

    someone is hoping they'll stop to bicker about the bait.

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    CharlieSpencer

    "Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands."

    Or maybe because it says 'There is NO official list of demands'?

    Assuming this is the movement's 'official' web page, I'm glad to see them distance themselves from this list. Some points are mutually exclusive (guaranteed wage AND open borders), others ignore economic reality (free college, 2 trillion in infrastructure and ecological restoration), others violate freely entered business arrangements (debt amnesty, abolition of health insurance). I'd distance myself from this poorly considered list, too.

    Once again, this is one of the problems with a decentralized movement; anyone can present himself as its voice.

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    jp85257

    regarding debts. I just hope they give me enough notice so I can buy a mansion, 3 new cars, a boat, a pool, and a lot of gold before all debts are forgiven. ;-)

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    Just "phreak" the US Presidents Official US of A Credit Card and go on a spending spree @ the tax payers expense.

    After all the current and immediate previsions administration ran up debts far in excess of what either of them could ever pay back. Just think of the US as Greece in 2025. The process will be the same and the only difference is more money is involved. That way they will do far more damage. :^0

    Perhaps then your Lusted For Mansion will not be sufficient as you'll need Air Travel between your Mansion and where ever you want to go or you'll run the risk of being robbed and eaten by the Starving Rabble when you leave your Grounds. :^0

    Of course using Air Transport leaves you in a position of being robbed and eaten by the people who you pay to transport you around so maybe it's better to just leave the country now and make your own somewhere, where money isn't and can never be involved.

    Minion here is a leaf of Letus now carry me to my Automobile and get the Chaffer to drive me where I want to go. Tell him I'll give him a Scooby Snack for this effort. I'll also give the Fuel Makers the fresh equivalent of a Tin of Beans to make the required fuel today. Certainly adds new meaning to the word Gass doesn't it? :^0

    See an economy without money and as an added advantage as you are using Food with a short shelf life there can be no hoarding to make people rich for doing nothing. Also you will not need to spool right either so everyone wins. :^0 :^0

    Col

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    AV .

    They don't have one right now. Note the disclaimer at the top of your article. It is one person's opinion.

    "Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands."

    I think by not defining themselves collectively, it makes them all the more interesting. The only thing we really know for sure is that they're not happy with the state of our country or our politics. I'm not happy with the same things, so I can relate to them on that level.

    I think OWS was inspired by the Arab Spring and particularly what the people in Egypt accomplished by unifying. I don't think OWS wants to overthrow the government, I think they want to fundamentally change the way things are done, utilizing the power of the masses. They want the government to listen to the people. What this group has going for it is its unity and its very big voice. Power to the people! We haven't had that spirit here since 1969. I like it.

    I heard this interview today from two of the OWS protesters in NY. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#44951473

    I thought it gave you some insight into their motivations. I thought I was back in the late '60's.

    AV

    Edit: I'm having a hard time determining if my post goes in the right place, so I added a name to the title.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    TR

    Where you make a post and it's likely to appear anywhere on the site. It may even appear off planet.

    Ain't Technology Wonderful. :^0

    Though to be perfectly honest I heard that this started in Spain with Students Protesting about the lack of employment not Egypt. :0

    Col

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    AV .

    Do tell.

    AV

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    markp24

    Hi all,

    I think part of the issue (along with erverything said prior is that the politicians are not accountable for there actions. If a politician puts a policy in place, or allows fluff to go thru on some unrelated bill or what ever it may be, and it fails to work or makes things worse, this person is not held accountable in the least. They just keep pushing more stuff through (based ususally on what corp entity is passing the most cash under the table.)
    I think we would see a big difference if thy were audited /policed by a "jury of citizens" or have some laws inplace to enforce what we need.

    Just a thought

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    CharlieSpencer

    We have one. It's called 'voters'. Membership is free.

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    HAL 9000 Moderator

    That the Pollies are free to do completely Idiot things when they first get erected and then when they come around for reelection people have forgotten the idiot Things that they initially did.

    Pollies know how to play the system and individually the do it very well to suit themselves. Of course that doesn't mean that they always do the best thing for their Party or Country but they always do the best thing for themselves.

    With the Apathy that the members of the General Public have and the extremely short memories by the time an Individual Polly comes up for reelection most have forgotten what they originally did. What they did last week/month is all that most remember if anything at all.

    Col

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    markp24

    did you really mean "when they first get erected "

    hmmmmm propably true with politicians...lol

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    markp24

    i see you point, but i feel like all we do is vote them in or out, and theres no repurcussions for doing a bad job.

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    jp85257

    What kind of repercussions would you recommend?

    Please define "doing a bad job". Who's going to decide?

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    markp24

    depending on the "bad job" maybe a fine, or jail time, or even required to do community projects.
    Bad job - defined as not doing what they promise to do.
    You say you will do X Y and Z if your voted in, then once your voted in you do the complete opposite of X, Y and Z then thats a bad job.

    (maybe im just to black and white with no shades of grey on my viewpoints)

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    jp85257

    So you're a Democrat and promise X,Y, and Z. The House, Senate, and Presidency are controlled by Republicans. They block every attempt for you to accomplish X,Y,and Z. Should you be fined for not doing what you promised?

    Don't get me wrong, I think we should throw them all out. But trying to punish someone for things they may not have control of isn't a real good idea IMHO.

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    markp24

    Didnt think of it that way, very good point,
    (I do agree by the way , about kicking everyone out and starting fresh, all the poiticians and parties, etc appear soo corrupt)

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    CharlieSpencer

    There's a difference between doing a bad job and committing a crime. Would you like to pay a fine or go to jail if your employer decides you're doing a bad job? Your employer can fire you; we can fire elected officials.

    The problem with basing a job performance assessment on campaign promises is two-fold. One is that the elected official often has to work with other elected officials who may have made completely contradictory promises to their constituents. The other is that each official has thousands or millions of 'bosses' who don't all agree on which promises are important.

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    JamesRL

    People who are in the ruling party "should" have access enough to information to be able to make informed and intelligent promises(not that they always do). Politicians who are not in the ruling party often make promises based on flawed premises or without vital information, because they don't have the same access to all information that the ruling party does.

    So if someone makes a promise in good faith, and then once in power discovers a disasterous consequence, should they blindly go ahead any way?

    And of course, situations change. The finances of the government changes, new facts come to light etc.

    The whole idea of representative democracy is that you chose someone who makes decisions similar to what you would make if you were in their position. But you can't account for the unknowable factors.

    Breaking a promise is not a crime. It is a factor to consider when looking at whether to vote for someone a second time.

    I'd rather have someone who breaks a promise when it makes sense, than someone who blindly votes based on an election promise despite overwhelming evidence that it is a bad thing.

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    CharlieSpencer

    The lesser being that while many countries enjoy a Parliamentarian government, in the US there is no 'ruling party'. Our president is not selected by the majority party of either house of our Congress. It's common for one party to have a majority in both houses while the President is of another (the other) party.

    The more important point regards the responsibility of those elected officials. Quoting from the ever-questionable Wikipedia:

    "The representatives form an independent ruling body (for an election period) charged with the responsibility of acting in the people's interest, but not as their proxy representatives nor necessarily always according to their wishes, but with enough authority to exercise swift and resolute initiative in the face of changing circumstances. It is often contrasted with direct democracy, where representatives are absent or are limited in power as proxy representatives."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

    I vote for someone to make the best decision. If, as you note, the party in power has better access to the relevant information, then my elected representatives have better access than I do. I want them to make the best possible decisions based on that access, not based on what we uninformed votes may prefer.

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    JamesRL

    The flip side to elections is that because of the prevalence of partisanship and party politics, you have politicians who get elected and do a great job representing their consituents, but then they can lose their job because of a swing based on party. There are soem rare politicians who can buck the trend, but it would seem to me less often these days,

    Don't like em? Vote them out!

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    AnsuGisalas

    Like this:
    I give my one net vote for party X, with a +1 subvote for candidate Mr/Mz Not-yet-worthy-of-my-contempt, and a -1 subvote for candidate Mr/Mz Very-much-in-need-of-a-smiting.

    So it's 1 vote for the party, with instructions to change the internal vote distribution of the party, giving to the favored candidate (if there is one) and taking from the unfavoured candidate (...which won't likely be hard to find).
    That way voters could get a chance to slam the people who are otherwise untouchable, because they're too good at playing the internal politics game, have too many allies, etc.
    Could be fun!

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    markp24

    hmmm, that may work.....lol

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    CharlieSpencer

    It's 'straight party' voting that results in the situation JamesRL describes, when worthy local incumbents are voted out because of knee-jerk reactions against their party's national policies. Stick to voting for individuals.

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    0 Votes
    AnsuGisalas

    there's enough damn dumbasses around to make sure the idjits get lots and lots of votes... and in many voting systems that means they can extend their vote surplus to fellow idjits. Only way to combat that is to deal with the distribution internal to the party.

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    0 Votes
    CharlieSpencer

    punch the straight party button, and call it a day.

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    0 Votes
    AnsuGisalas

    it's for the rest of us.
    But you're right: The Biggs Hoson won't allow any useful change to happen in Poll'O'Ticks - That would violate the laws of quantumdynamics.

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