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  • #2150516

    A Sad Day for Israel

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    by protiusx ·

    It truly is a sad day for Israel. Moreover, it is a sad day for humanity, decency, and for all those things that make us more than animals. Israel has been repeatedly attacked over, and over, and over again. Hezbollah has declared their intent to destroy Israel. They will not relent until every Jew is eradicated from the face of the earth. This is not war; it is genocide. So why is it that the world seems to have sympathy for Hezbollah (or Hamas for that matter?)?
    We have seen the honor of the Palestinian who returns coffins and body parts in exchange for their so called ?heroes? who are nothing more than cold blooded EVIL child murderers. Hezbollah declared that this is an official defeat over Israel. If history is to teach us anything it is that Israel is not so easily defeated. Israel for their part have allowed this kind of thing to occur by deviating from their tough stance and hard lined approach. They have mistakenly believed they could negotiate with those who would rather see them dead. Enough is enough. The only way for Israel to survive surrounded by people who would see them ?wiped from the face of the Earth? is to return to the policies of Benjamin Netanyahu and deal harshly with those who threaten Israel. Time was where Israel would respond en mass to incursions into their territory or attacks on their people. What has happened to the IDF?
    Israel ? If you hear my plea it is to destroy those who advocate your destruction and work with those who offer you peace. The Hezbollah are murderers, liars and thieves and they should be treated as such.

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    Replies
    • #2926206

      What has happened?

      by the scummy one ·

      In reply to A Sad Day for Israel

      How about Lebanon a few years back! Right along with all
      of the news stories about how Israel was acting too harsh
      and such.
      The International community came down hard on Israel,
      and tries to ‘Tame’ them.
      However, I too think that Israel is in a different position
      than other countries that try to set policy for them. When
      your neighbor wants you dead at all cost, just sitting back
      and getting screwed is not always the answer.
      Personally, I feel Israel is justified to military operations
      for Every Single rocket that flies into her borders, Every
      Single act of aggression against her.

    • #2926202

      human nature, we need a 3rd world war to weed out extremeisms

      by jeanl1 ·

      In reply to A Sad Day for Israel

      The world need another world war. That’s is international force aim at Islamic states with extreme fundamentalism, wipe them out once for all. In order to do that is to let them have what they wanted, empower themselves with nuke and wait for them to use it, directly or indirectly. We may encounter some heavy casualty, but it would be good for all humanity for the future generation. During this period we have to focus on 3 things: 1) self sufficient renewable enegy technology and green energy sources. 2) new technology counter all nuke weaponry and advance detection system. Re-invent much more powerful Mother of all boom that could wipe out all living within 100 sq mile with one boom without any long term contamination. 3) reform United Nations and disqualify nations consider a treat to security of it’s neighbors or it;s own people.

    • #2926183

      No Offense but CNN better forum for this

      by trrrr ·

      In reply to A Sad Day for Israel

      Good Luck

      • #2925502

        Any forum

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to No Offense but CNN better forum for this

        where intelligent people gather, is a good place for “this”.

        You saw the title before you decided to come into the discussion and read it. If you don’t wish to be a part of such discussions, don’t click on it.

        Off-topic discussions are allowed here by Tech Republic, and it is not for you to presume to speak for them.

        No offense, of course.

        • #2925500

          None taken

          by trrrr ·

          In reply to Any forum

          But … what is your IP

        • #2925489

          IP? We don’t need no steeenk’en….

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to None taken

          With it hard to convey tone, it was an effort to inform a new user (you) of what is and isn’t condoned, without intending to sound hostile.

          Chill and enjoy the ride.

        • #2925875

          All meant in fun dude.

          by trrrr ·

          In reply to IP? We don’t need no steeenk’en….

          I am truly new to this forum but not to tech stuff. I noticed the name of this Forum was TECH REPUBLIC not ISRAELI / HAMAS REPUBLIC. I have friends who are Israeli and I understand the frustrations that the region has had for many years. I apologize for my ignorance of your ignorance. I will never post here again nor shall I even look here. I will assume you may reply GOOD RIDDENCE. That is how i see it too. A tech forum about the middle east BS

        • #2925868

          Chill out!

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to All meant in fun dude.

          TR is also known as a ‘virtual water cooler’ to many folk here. Things from music, jokes, religion, politics, world affairs, climate change, and everything in between are discussed.
          Don’t get bent out of shape, snoop around and enjoy the ride. It is truly a great site for both technical and non-technical discussion.

        • #2925862

          speaking of climate change

          by jiminpa ·

          In reply to Chill out!

          can anyone tell me how to write a script to hack the HVAC system??? It is terribly hot here in the dungeon 😀

        • #2925867

          JD…

          by jiminpa ·

          In reply to All meant in fun dude.

          I think you hurt his feelings. 🙂

        • #2925843

          I was TRYING to be nice

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to JD…

          or as nice as I can be, ya know?

          Other than telling him he was out of line for coming in and dictating to others something he has no standings to dictate on, there shouldn’t have been anything for him to get his feelings hurt on?

          oh well…

        • #2925821

          anybody that’s read any of your replys in the past

          by jiminpa ·

          In reply to JD…

          could’ve seen you were trying to be nice. I know what it looks like when you go after somebody. I noticed he only joined on Wednesday. He’s like the people out here that build their houses next to a pig farm and then complain about the smell…

        • #2925846

          No, not Good Riddence

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to All meant in fun dude.

          Having never had other exchanges with you, I have no way of knowing if you leaving is a good or bad thing.

          If you are that easily offended (especially when I was trying to be nice), then maybe TR isn’t the site for you, though.

          TR is more of a place for techs, than a place for tech.

          We can come here and discuss things that non-technical people don’t understand, from a point of view they can rarely relate to. Ever seen that glazed over look when you try to share something really cool in the tech field with a non-techie? You don’t get a lot of that here.

          We do discuss both technical and non-technical. My discussion during my divorce a few years back is still the second largest discussion in the history of TR, with the number one being about [i]whispers[/i](evolution)[i]hope no one heard that[/i].

          It is a good site, and as long as your message isn’t hateful or overly crude, then it is pretty much fair game.

          If you do chill and check things out, you might find a new home. Just pick and choose which discussions you wish to be a part of, and don’t presume to dictate to others.

          Stay or go, your choice. Leaving will be your loss though, because it is a great site, full of great people.

        • #2925841

          Didn’t hear nuthin

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to No, not Good Riddence

          Just faith in the next moment.

        • #2925839

          My eyes may be weak…

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to No, not Good Riddence

          but my ears are great. I heard that JD.

          Moving on to the cyborg thread, now. 😉

          etu

        • #2924795

          JD, if you aren’t going to say it, I am.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to No, not Good Riddence

          Good Riddance.

        • #2926722

          Good luck getting rid the reverberations of a Big Bang.

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to No, not Good Riddence

          .

    • #2926161

      As far as I’m aware the reasoning behind the exchange

      by tony hopkinson ·

      In reply to A Sad Day for Israel

      is Israel honouring their commitment to their conscripted soldiers. Dead or alive you’re coming home. A no man left behind sort of thing.

      So wrong about that, and the rest of it….

      Been there, done that, blood stained tee-shirt on show.

      Couldn’t work didn’t work, won’t work. That sort of violence needs to be specifically targetted. Some more missiles through terrorist leaders windscreens fine. Lobbing bombs, bulldozing settlements, building tyhe isalmic wall, understandable, but self defeating. They aren’t shutting the enemy out, but themselves in.

    • #2925571

      peace

      by john.a.wills ·

      In reply to A Sad Day for Israel

      The Israelis started the wars with the Nakba, which is still being continued and extended, currently in the Jordan Valley. If the Israelis wanted peace they would allow the exiles (who are, be it noted, Israeli citizens under the terms of the Partition Resolution) home and give them their property back. This is a necessary condition for peace (as the Nakba is the central violation of peace), and probably sufficient too. Of course, there would be no Israeli state because the majority of the voters would then vote for a single secular state throughout Palestine. But states aren’t sacred, they’re instruments for the current situation.

      • #2925511

        Independence Day

        by protiusx ·

        In reply to peace

        One man’s “catastrophe” is another man’s “Independence”. So, based on your logic American natives have the right to launch missiles from their reservations and should be exalted when the blow themselves up in a crowded market place in the hopes that “the white man” will eventually give them their land back? I suppose its okay in your mind to bash the brains of a four year old child in with a rifle butt because of something that happened in 1948.

        • #2925494

          Hmm…

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to Independence Day

          I thought the white man won the US lands in a game of chess? ?:|

          Maybe we should just rebuild the Berlin wall and reconstruct the USSR too?

        • #2925487

          Hmm…

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Hmm…

          I think that the “native Americans” should be suing FRANCE over the Louisiana Purchase. We DID buy the land, fair and square, right? Not our fault if France jumped claim, huh?

        • #2925825

          See it can all be traced back to the French!

          by protiusx ·

          In reply to Hmm…

          I love it! I knew the bloody French had to have something to do with this!

        • #2925458

          Native Americans and other thoughts

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Independence Day

          You can’t judge the actions of the eighteenth century Americans by the moral codes of today. You have to judge them by the moral codes of the time.

          Israeli actions CAN be judged by the moral codes of today. If we judge both Israel and Hezbollah then the only conclusion that we can come to is “A plague on both their houses”.

          Of course it is not OK “to bash the brains of a four year old child in” but it is also not OK to scatter cluster bombs over South Lebanon and ignore the consequences. those consequences being dead and maimed children.

          We do not know the names of the Lebanese children.

          Protius – and others if you wish – Please try and answer this rationally as it puzzles me greatly.

          WHY does the United States so uncritically support Israel on almost every issue? WHY do your politicians praise Israel as “the only democracy in the Middle East”. WHY does the US provides Israel’s main financial backing when the result is the hatred of the USA throughout the Arab world?

          That hatred is transferred from Israel. Why? The justifications given for the founding of the state of Israel are 1) that God gave that land to the Jews or 2) the Holocaust. The first reason is deeply insulting to Arab Muslims who are profoundly religious – but of another creed and the second reason means that the Palestinians Arabs had to pay for a crime that they did not commit.

          How SHOULD the Arabs react to the “law of return” where any Jew, anywhere may emigrate to Israel and become a citizen, while those Arabs who fled in 1948 – or their children – can not. Or that Jerusalem, claimed to be Holy by three religions, has become the “eternal capital of the Jewish people”. And only them!

          Why does the US not react the same way to the overtly racist Israel in the same way that they reacted to overtly racist South Africa – eventually.

          WHY does the USA consider Israel as an ally? What do they do for you? You are embroiled in Iraq, desperately trying to get out and leave some stability behind you and yet your “ally”, Israel, attacks Gaza and Lebanon and further alienates the Arabs. In the Middle East, the main charge against the United States is that it is pro-Israel, because it lets itself be “manipulated by the Jews”.

          I see on this board and in the USA’s media an almost total lack of understanding of the Arab viewpoint on Palestine, and, in particular, of the racist nature of the problem.

          The reason Israel acts as it does is that it possesses its “all-powerful army”, funded and armed by the US and tested again recently in Lebanon, and the inexplicable control over Washington policy-making and US public opinion.

          Peace in the Middle East can only come when this feeling of Israeli superiority is shattered. Pursue a foreign policy based on [b]your own self-interest[/b] and that will happen.

          Neil 🙂

        • #2925857

          God gave the land…

          by john.a.wills ·

          In reply to Native Americans and other thoughts

          … not to the Jews but to the Israelites before they split into Jews and Samaritans. Israel is not a nation (Nm 23:9) but a church. Centuries after the Samaritan/Jew split, the Jews split into on the one hand Rabbinical Jews and on the other Christians. About a tenth of the Palestinians are Christian. And Muslims are very close to being Israelites within the meaning of Joshua – they are certainly not polytheistic idolaters like the Canaanites.

        • #2924770

          Yet another wonderful benefit of religion in this world.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to God gave the land…

          More people with unprovable beliefs killing others with conflicting but equally unprovable beliefs because that’s what they’ve always done. Strip them of their religious bindings and much of this goes away. No wonder I’m an atheist.

        • #2927008

          atheism

          by john.a.wills ·

          In reply to Yet another wonderful benefit of religion in this world.

          Do you think atheists have never killed people of different beliefs?

        • #2927006

          Religion…

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to atheism

          is another rationalization that people who like to kill other people use for doing so.

          edit: lose a word

        • #2927000

          Generally, we don’t do it

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to atheism

          because we believe that our Imaginary Being tells us to (unless, of course, we’re schizophrenic). Or because we believe in a different Imaginary Being to you. Or that we believe that OUR interpretation of the writings of our common Imaginary Being is the only correct version.

          Trust me, Atheists don’t kill BECAUSE they are atheists. They need to find another reason.

          Being human, that’s pretty easy, though.

          🙂

        • #2926992

          Schism

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to atheism

          Thou art that as well as they.

        • #2926924

          No, of course not.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to atheism

          But I think the number of atheists who kill over differing beliefs is far smaller than those who kill because they feel their religion doesn’t tolerate differing beliefs.

        • #2925830

          There is not unconditional support here in the US

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Native Americans and other thoughts

          Many in the Democratic party are very anti-Israel, anti-jew, pro-muslim, pro-Palestine.

          I would say many support Israel simply on the stance that they are surrounded by nations that want nothing more than to wipe them from the face of the planet.

          People also see the cowardly attack upon citizens on a regular basis, and so think that Israel has every right to defend and strike back hard on all comers.

          The world has also seen what happens everytime Israel does make concessions, it is never enough and the attacks on them continue.

          The difference we also see, the recent “hostage trade” of a few corpses for living prisoners (murderers).

        • #2925822

          Well Said

          by protiusx ·

          In reply to There is not unconditional support here in the US

          I was thinking how I was going to write this long diatribe in response to my good friend Neil BUT you beat me to it (and did a more concise job of it too!).

        • #2925797

          Thank you

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Well Said

          It did take several rewrites to keep it short and sweet.

          I have learned, the more you write, the less people read.

          May not cover every issue that was asked, but to trie to explain from my boots what I see, was all I could do.

        • #2925032

          Write it! Write it! I LOVE diatribes

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Well Said

          I am, I admit, going somewhat further than my real position with a bit of Devil’s Advocate spin on my true position.

          “A plague on both their houses” is closest to the truth of my feelings. I used to be, to a certain extent, a supporter of Israel but I find that I approve of very little – nothing, really, that they have done over the last twenty years. I now truly believe that Israel is out of control and they believe that they are invincible and can do anything that they want to. The US is hanging on to the tail of a tiger.

          I have absolutely NO IDEA what you could do to let go but I do believe that you should try.

          Neil 🙂

          One really strange thing, though, which goes against Israel’s normal ruthless, calculating attitude.

          The hostage exchange was one of the most bizarre happenings in this whole crazy Middle East, though. Israel negotiated as if did not matter whether their captured troops were dead or alive and thereby allowed itself to be placed in the position of negotiating without even knowing what it was negotiating about.

          One of the cornerstones of Israeli Defence force morale is that soldiers know that everything will be done to bring them back if captured. But how relevant is that with respect to the return of dead bodies? I would guess that the troops would NOT want any concessions on the scale of this exchange.

          It is hard to believe that Israeli Defence force morale will be improved by a negotiating strategy that will have the inevitable effect of removing all incentives for the proper treatment of Israeli POWs.

        • #2925820

          Well, this is not the way it appears

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to There is not unconditional support here in the US

          I’d be interested to hear what concessions that you think Israel has ever made.

          I’m also interested in your immediate finger-pointing at the hated Democrats, given that Obama has gone on record saying Israel’s security was “sacrosanct” and “non-negotiable”. He also said he would do “everything” to stop Iran getting a nuclear weapon.

          Sounds like more of the same, to me.

          Obama said last month that “he would work from the start of his administration to achieve a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli one, but with Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel”. And you wonder why the Arabs are pissed!

          The picture of Israel in the minds of the US citizens is, of course, “that they are surrounded by nations that want nothing more than to wipe them from the face of the planet.” It is true – now – but what I’m really interested in is WHY this is the case. I’m also interested in what you think that those neighbours can actually DO about Israel.

          I really do believe that the Israeli government endangers every American with its current policy of terrorizing the Middle East. Israel is the reason why the US policy in Iraq will fail.

          The problem is that Israel is too strong and too ruthless and calculating to be defeated as long as the US supports them with their money, and the Arab world is also too strong to be defeated – they just have too much money of their own. Neither side can defeat the other. I don?t wish the Israelis harm but I do wish they would stop harming their neighbours. The US has to admit that Israel is a failed state and withdraw their encouragement and support for Israeli atrocities. THEN the world would be a safer place.

          Neil 🙂

        • #2925818

          Failed state…

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to Well, this is not the way it appears

          Don’t forget Neil, if it wasn’t for the US, you would be speaking German! 😉 :p

        • #2925801

          oh… my…. gawd…..

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Failed state…

          you didn’t just open that one up, did you? :0 :p

          damn trouble makers everywhere! ;\

        • #2925798

          Sorry JD…

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to Failed state…

          I wasn’t trying to cause trouble… honest! 😀 ;\

          Edit: Also, being as Neil knows I am a limey, he will surely take it in jest. 😀

        • #2925795

          I knew you were

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Failed state…

          but I could see some certain other members around here (not talking about Neil) that have seen that so many times and just come UNHINGED. B-)

          The action/reaction might have kicked in BEFORE they realized who was saying it and HOW they were saying it.

          And just because it is TRUE doesn’t mean we need to say it! :p :^0 [i]hello pot, let me stir you a bit![/i]

          And after all that, you would think they would talk PROPER English…. [i]lord, how deep can this go?[/i]

          if nothing else, would have helped get rid of all the extra “U”‘s that get so liberally sprinkled in every other word? It is like the printers had a surplus of “U”‘s, and had to use them up and figured no one would notice! B-) [i]make him stop, for the love of God, make him stop![/i]

          B-)

        • #2925012

          And but for

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Failed state…

          the french you would be speaking english….

          ROFLMAO

        • #2924867

          Tony, Tony, Tony…..

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Failed state…

          you just HAD to go THERE…. :0

          To think we would be running around saying things like “Pip pip, cheeri-O!”

          [i]which I have NO idea what a “pip pip” is….[/i]

        • #2924866

          An interesting thought Tony

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Failed state…

          If the [i]Frogs[/i] hadn’t “saved” us from you, would we have been in a position to “save” them in return? :0 ;\ B-)

        • #2926818

          Mr Monsta was just wide open on the flank

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Failed state…

          Us english types don’t miss opportunities like that…..

          😀

        • #2926812

          You got that wrong

          by j-mart ·

          In reply to Failed state…

          By defeating Germany in the Battle of Brittain the oportunity to invade Brittan was gone for the Germans as they lost the battle for air superiority required for invasion. The US contribution joining later on was in where the line between between Soviet controled Europe and the rest would be.

        • #2926663

          There were american pilots in the battle of britain

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Failed state…

          not many, but everyone we could get was valuable. They came over to help out, nvere mind what the government wanted. Real freedom fighters.

          Lend lease as unfavourable as it was, helped.

          The big plus though was Hitler, as military commander he was a very good corporal. Let’s go invade russia, it will only take a few months….

        • #2927094

          Tony…

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to Failed state…

          I spent the first 21 years of my life in lovely Wolverhampton. Believe me, I have never spoken English!! :p 😀

        • #2925799

          Never said hated

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Well, this is not the way it appears

          I feel sorry for these mentally retarded individuals, lost, looking for government to be the solution to every problem they have. I don’t hate them.

          Obama is making a dash to the center now that the primary is done, just like he had made a mad dash to the extreme left to GET through the primaries.

          He is making up time, because he knows if he is seen as weak on key issues like this and his back peddling on Iraq, he won’t be able to win. He is not going to have enough of “the black vote” to overcome this otherwise. He has already shown he is just another politician, and we have seen that he is a great speaker, if he has a teleprompter to read off, but can’t think on his feet and speak so greatly.

          It is just a shame that McCain is not someone I can/will support, because that will make the difference with many.

          Israel is the terrorist nation in the Middle East now? Interesting.

        • #2925794

          Interesting

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Well, this is not the way it appears

          ” I’m also interested in what you think that those neighbours can actually DO about Israel.”

          How about launching several thousand rockets?
          How about kidnapping, tunnelling, suicide bombs, etc…

          C’mon now, what can they do? This is just a small fraction. They CAN do lots. Israels neighbors can form another alliance and start a war. They CAN and WILL if nobody was backing Israel. Instead they support activities of terror and pledges for destruction.

          ” really do believe that the Israeli government endangers every American with its current policy of terrorizing the Middle East. Israel is the reason why the US policy in Iraq will fail. ”

          Israel is Terrorizing the Mid-East?
          Hmmm, how many Israeli suicide bombers have you noted in the other countries?
          How many unprovoked missiles get launched from Israel, to, say, Iran (where a good chunk of change and aid comes from to fight Israel with terrorist activities)?

          So, we withdraw all support for Israel, then what???
          Then Israel is overrun in a matter of weeks. Genocide would rule the region. Then there would be peace (for a short time)!
          After Israel is gone, Who is next? There are many groups, just Israel was a common hate. After Israel is gone, would the new Palestine be next?
          There is a lot of hatred in the mid east. All that will happen is a new focus/target.

        • #2925037

          W2ktechman, I’m just saying it how I see it

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Interesting

          I find that dispassionately assessing the role of Israel in the region over the last fifty years unearths some facts that seem at odds with the general perception of Israel as the “good guy”.

          We – well, your CIA – defines “terrorism” as deliberately inflicting injury, death and/or destruction upon a civilian target sufficient to cause horror, revulsion or despair among civilian populations and their leaders, with the goal of causing those populations or political leaders to act in a way desired by the terrorists.

          One example of many I could post:

          In its struggle with the Palestinians Israel always kills a hugely greater number of civilians than it suffers casualties itself.

          In the fighting up to the evening before ceasefire in Lebanon, Israel stated it suffered 167 killed, of which 114 were military personnel and 53 were civilians. The Lebanese figures are less easy to verify but reported casualties were 1071 killed, of whom the great majority were civilians.

          So, Hezbollah’s struggle was mainly military on the border. Israel’s attacks were widespread attacks on civilians in Lebanon.

          The leaflets dropped by Israel on Beirut as the ceasefire came into effect openly proclaimed what I consider to be a terrorist message: “Can you pay this price again? Know that the Israel Defence Forces will return and will act with all necessary might against any terrorist act coming from Lebanon that touches Israel”.

          Neil

          p.s What are the controls on the Israeli nuclear arsenal? What is the chain of decision and control of Israel’s weapons? How susceptible are they to misuse or theft? With no open, frank, public debate on nuclear issues in Israel, there has accordingly been no debate or information on existing safeguards.

          Israel has consistently refused to allow international inspection of its arsenal and facilities and is among the very few states in the world that have refused to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

          Yet your government criticises Iran?

          I would suggest that Israel has the US by the nuclear balls. The day that the US pulls back from total support of Israel or reduces its military or financial support is probably the day that we will see Israel use some of that arsenal. Now THAT frightens us all, the US included.

        • #2925031

          Neil

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to Interesting

          At least get the distinction between “arsenal” and “armory” right.

        • #2925026

          Santee: I though I had. you’re going to have to elaborate

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Interesting

          The primary definition in my dictionary for both arsenal and armoury is as a storage place for weapons. Each has the other as a synonym. The definition of arsenal alone, though, also includes “a collection or supply of weapons or munitions” such as Israel’s collection of nuclear warheads.

          Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom,
          Boom, Boom, Boom,
          Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom,
          Boom, Boom, Boom

          🙂

        • #2925016

          Neil

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Interesting

          “So, Hezbollah’s struggle was mainly military on the
          border. Israel’s attacks were widespread attacks on
          civilians in Lebanon.”

          First I want to mention — what are the normal targets for
          Hezbollah? Where are the missiles launched from? Are
          those deaths/injuries included? What about the terror
          message there?

          As for the message dropped, basically stating, F**k with
          us and we’ll be back! — I dont see a big problem with it.
          they are trying to get the word out that they will retaliate
          for attacks against them. However, it does have an
          influence of other intentions and should/could have been
          worded better.

          So, how should Israel respond to rocket attacks? How
          about with the knowledge that the rockets being used are
          getting better and better?

        • #2925013

          If synonymous

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to Interesting

          What do we use to designate that place where arms and armaments are made, as opposed to stored?

        • #2925005

          Neil, and body counts

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Interesting

          I suppose you don’t see a difference between a military force that almost exclusively targets civilians, the whole time, intentionally hiding among civilians, and the need to retaliate when attacked?

          Yeah, they should just twiddle their thumbs, and refuse to strike back, right?

          Yet the same REAL terrorists that cowardly hide among the citizens are locally seen as heros, the whole time it is THEY that intentionally put the civilians in the cross-hairs HOPING the civilians would get killed so they could show how bad Israel is.

          So, civilian targets almost exclusive on one side, while intentionally putting civilians in harms way on the other. Tell me about about the counts?

        • #2924989

          Santee, I would accept

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Interesting

          “What are the controls on the Israeli nuclear [b]arsenal[/b]?”

          and

          “Israel has consistently refused to allow international inspection of its [b]armoury[/b]”, that being the installation at Dimona.

          You happy with that?

          😀

        • #2924988

          neilb and santee…

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to Interesting

          Love you guys. 😀

        • #2925030

          Name some of these many

          by ic-it ·

          In reply to There is not unconditional support here in the US

          Democrats. Both sides support Israel and it’s right to exist. I would like to see some solid examples of politicians that are “very” anti. (And no minor left-wing idiots, because there are likely more minor right-wing nuts that have expressed anti views).

        • #2925871

          1948 by itself is not the problem

          by john.a.wills ·

          In reply to Independence Day

          The problem is that the Nakba is still going on and indeed being extended. And as for murdering children, the Israelis do that pretty well every week, don’t they? BTW, Native Americans are allowed to live anywhere in the U.S. and their private property rights are protected by the courts. It is private property rights of the exiled Israeli citizens I was referring to; national claims are largely irrelevant to me.

      • #2915056

        Thank you Joseph Goebels.

        by locrian_lyric ·

        In reply to peace

        nt

    • #2925028

      typical Biased one-sided jaundiced view !

      by gate keeper ·

      In reply to A Sad Day for Israel

      people why do we have to piss in our pool i.e politics on a tech forum ????

      my apologies for the long title but that is what i think of your post Mr. ProtiusX.

      everything you said is equally if not more true of the Israili government against palestinian civilians .. perhaps a dose of objectivity would have done your post some justice.

      • #2925022

        Post the other viewpoint, then

        by neilb@uk ·

        In reply to typical Biased one-sided jaundiced view !

        I, personally, have no problem debating Protius. He’s a right-wing, American religious nutjob (from my perspective as a rational, left-wing, atheist Brit) but he’s a NICE right-wing, American religious nutjob and he’s a mate of mine so leave him alone. 🙂

        The topic here is “off-topic”. Not “networking” or “operating systems” or “management”. All of those exist and there are blogs and discussions enough to warm your toes. “Off-topic” is an area where techs such as me can indulge in a bit of cut-and-thrust debate about absolutely anything. You don’t HAVE to join in.

        😀

        • #2925019

          hmm I see

          by gate keeper ·

          In reply to Post the other viewpoint, then

          I would but i got pretty heated when it comes to politcs .. so i will not venture into that teritorry.

          thanks for the heads-up regarding the off-topic stuff … bear with me while i learn to navigate the murky waters that is techrepublic forums 😀

        • #2924999

          Good on you, Kaynaan!

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to hmm I see

          An excellent reply! I commend you for taking Neil’s words at face value and choosing to not react childishly.

          Around this time of year, you’ll see a few threads about breast cancer too. We periodically debate global warming. Come October and November, you will see any number of threads on politics. Post election, God Himself only knows what may erupt.

          TR is a great place to visit and learn. There are good, intelligent people here who have any number of viewpoints and are willing to share them. You can find yourself deep in a discussion of routers one minute, anti virus the next, and gun control the next. That’s the beauty of this joint- something for everybody. I’m a blog contributer. Got something you want to see researched and written about? PM me. Got questions that the FAQ doesn’t answer? PM me.

          Welcome to TR. I hope to see you back again and again. 😀

        • #2924995

          Murky waters…

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to hmm I see

          Beware the land sharks. 😉

      • #2925003

        Here you go Neil

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to typical Biased one-sided jaundiced view !

        While not American, he/she has shown which side of the fence he/she is on….

        So not everyone thinks that Israel is in the right here.

        • #2924996

          Not American

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Here you go Neil

          That is exactly my point. It is only the Americans who support Israel whatever they do and whoever they do it to without question.

          Why? Seriously, what is in it for you? I just don’t see it.

          Neil 😀

        • #2924865

          A question to turn it around

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Not American

          Why is it non-Americans are AGAINST Israel whatevery they do? Hmmmm.

          Why the pro-middle-east, anti Israel? Who has shown themselves to be a greater threat to people outside of that region? I don’t recall the last time Israeli’s attacked the UK.

        • #2924847

          To answer your question

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to A question to turn it around

          Could it be that there is, now, very little to be “pro-Israel” about when you view the actions of Israel dispassionately? We are allowed to say what we want and most people now say exactly that, mirroring the change in MY attitude to Israel since the 1960s. The label of “anti-Semitism” isn’t slapped on anyone who dares to criticise Israel over here in the same way that it is in the US.

          The criticism of Israel in the UK comes from all shades of people, multi-ethnic, multi-religious groups and it includes many British Jews.

          A couple of years ago the Israeli ambassador said that Britain was a “hotbed of anti-Israeli sentiment”.

          Then again, we have a huge groundswell of anti-Islamic sentiment as well.

          A plague on both their houses.

        • #2926712

          So Therefore

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to To answer your question

          Kill ’em All???

        • #2926708

          Neil eschews violence

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to So Therefore

          Prefers pestilence.

        • #2926701

          :^0

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to So Therefore

          :^0

        • #2924769

          Not all Americans

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Not American

          I’ve often wondered why we support an ‘ally’ who routinely spies on us. I wonder why our political leaders feel compelled to cater to the desires of the relatively small pro-Israeli special interest groups (and the even smaller anti-Castro groups). I suspect we wouldn’t be as interested in Israel if it wasn’t in the middle of the Oillandia.

        • #2926680

          I used to think that it was about the oil

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Not all Americans

          but if you examine that a little closer then I’m not sure it holds up.

          Israel has no oil. Support for Israel gets the US, in return, nothing but hostility from the Arab nations who DO have the oil. You’d get a lot more support from Arab nations in the “war against terrorism” if the support for Israel wasn’t so strong.

          What is it that has made the US use its UN security council veto so many times to shut down UN Resolutions critical of Israel? I really do want to know and it’s why I’m posting here.

          I can see why the US would support Israel on moral grounds but then I don’t understand why US support was much less in the early years of the Israeli state, when they really needed it AND when they were more democratic, but has ramped up as Israel’s military power has grown dramatically and its repression against Palestinians in the occupied territories has increased.

          So I still don’t know why…

        • #2926630

          A few thoughts

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to I used to think that it was about the oil

          however I dont know how much water it holds.

          Information — Israel has very detailed information on their little area and neighbors.

          Also, as their military equipment gets used, we probably get to do research to advance our equipment. Nothing is better to learn from than actual use!

          just 2 things that may put together part of the picture.

        • #2925427

          U.S. support for Zionism

          by john.a.wills ·

          In reply to Not American

          There follows one very influential line of argument which makes many USAmericans pro-Zionist.
          1. God gave the Holy Land to the Israelites.
          2. The Israelites are a nation.
          3. The Israelis are the national descendants of the Biblical Israelites.
          4. The Israeli conquest is thus a divinely sanctioned reconquest.
          5. When the Israeli(te)s are safe in their own land Jesus will come again.
          Now, my comments.
          #2 is contrary to Nm 23:9: Israel is a church, not a nation.
          #3 is historical hogwash: the ancestors of the Israelis can trace their faith to various conversions. The nearest the Biblical Israelites have to a national descent is the Palestinian nation.
          #5 is not known to me from the Bible.

        • #2925402

          Query for the group: what’s YOUR definition of ‘Zionism’?

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to U.S. support for Zionism

          To me it’s a word that’s been tossed about in so many different connotations that I find it as jingoistic as ‘Homeland’. I avoid using it because I find it doesn’t mean the same thing to everyone that uses it (unlike ‘red’ or ‘ocean’).

        • #2916954

          definition of Zionism

          by john.a.wills ·

          In reply to Query for the group: what’s YOUR definition of ‘Zionism’?

          I seem to be the one who has used the word most, so I’ll make an attempt.

          Zionism is the work planned by the World Zionist Organization and its supporting organizations such as Qeren Qayemeth leIsrael(also called Jewish National Fund) and the Jewish Agency for Israel(formerly called the Jewish Agency for Palestine).

          That isn’t very good, but it’s probably good enough for most of this discussion so far. I give a better but longer one in a book I’m not supposed to mention.

        • #2925160

          A few quibbles

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to U.S. support for Zionism

          “The Israelites are a nation.”
          “#2 is contrary to Nm 23:9: Israel is a church, not a nation.”

          Israelites are not a nation, they are/were a peoples.
          As far as Israel being a chuch and thats it, may be a bad statement. Just because 1 source (not always accurate either) states it, does not mean it was always that way.

          Quoted from the site here

          http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_original_people.php

          “The Biblical account continues with the rise of an Israelite kingdom, first under Saul and then under David at about 1000 BC, the date of David’s conquest of Jerusalem.

          The biblical accounts have not been confirmed by archeology and the exact dividing line between myth, legend, and history remains unknown. Generally the historical record begins with the destruction of the northern Israelite capital at Samaria in 772 BC by Assyrians, and the conquering of Judah’s (southern Israelites) capital at Jerusalem in 586 BC by Babylonians who destroyed the First Temple.”

          That tells me that Israel was a Nation/Kingdom that ruled the area over 1,000 years ago.
          A couple of years ago I found a site that had maps and a timeline for many events in Palstine history, and it was very similar.

          Even earlier than that there are records that Egypt anhialated Israel, which also suggests that they were a nation that threatened the mighty Egypt.

          #3 — Do you have any proof that the ancestors of Israel (Southern Israel was Jewish btw, at Jerusalem) is not the modern day Jews?

          As for the rest, personally, it is not my history so I can care less. The actions of today and moving forward are where my attention is peaked. I dont care if their god gave them the land, or if temples are/were there, nor do I care if they believe that Jesus will return or how.

        • #2917069

          nations, churches

          by john.a.wills ·

          In reply to A few quibbles

          You are confusing nation and state. The Israelite states were ecclesial, not national. The Bible is pretty consistent in its use of the word “goy” (nation) in contrast to Israel, or for Israel when God is annoyed with it.
          Any history of Russia should tell you about the conversion of the Khazars to Rabbinical Judaism and of their empire. Two letters of the Cyrillic alphabet are from the Hebrew alphabet, and the first Polish coins were inscribed in Hebrew as well as Roman letters. The Ashkenazim are basically descended from the Khazars and their subjects, which is why so many Israelis are blond: they are Slavs or Teutons. A brief history of the Khazar Empire is given in Koestler: The Thirteenth Tribe.
          And you may not care about Jesus returning, but many U.S. Fundamentalists do, and that is important.

        • #2917006

          I think I met 30 Jesus’s in the last few months

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to nations, churches

          but none of them did anything but drink and show off ….

          :^0

        • #2916921

          Funny…

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to nations, churches

          I thought God didn’t want to give them Judges because it was a first step in movement towards secularity.

    • #2925020

      A simple request – in 500 words or less

      by maxwell edison ·

      In reply to A Sad Day for Israel

      Answer this question. In regards to the whole Israel/Palestinian/Arab issue that we struggle with today, how did it all start, what event’s stoked the fire, and how did we get to where we are today?

      The best [i]in a nutshell[/i] answer (as judged by yours truly), free of editorializing or the interjection of personal bias, and using 500 words or less wins the prize! (The 500 words request is a guideline. If you have to exceed it a bit, that’s okay.)

      • #2925009

        Well

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to A simple request – in 500 words or less

        Kane killed Abel, and things went down hill from there.

        10 words….

        Or my personal favourite.

        The start of the conflict was lost when those who started it were killed.

      • #2925004

        “God”

        by santeewelding ·

        In reply to A simple request – in 500 words or less

        Without a period(.)

      • #2924994

        Sibling rivalry…

        by boxfiddler ·

        In reply to A simple request – in 500 words or less

        gone out of hand with the passage of too much time and too little affection.

        etu

      • #2924991

        Well, I’ll try. The start…

        by neilb@uk ·

        In reply to A simple request – in 500 words or less

        It started with the Zionist movement and their idea to create a predominantly or completely Jewish homeland. Starting in the 19th century and continuing up to the present day, the Jewish National Fund bought land in the name of the Jewish people with the proviso that it could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs.

        The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of this agenda, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. For whatever misguided colonial reason, the Jews were able to continue to purchase land with the military backing of the British. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people from a land that they had occupied since the Seventh Century.

        A quote from Theodore Herzl, one of the founders of Zionism, “We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country… Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly”.

        Neil 🙂

        More tomorrow, maybe…

        • #2924876

          Ah so the root cause was in in fact a lack of adherrence

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Well, I’ll try. The start…

          to marxist principals…

          Bibble.

          Says it all doesn’t it, even an intellectual elite, can be as dumb as the hole in a cow’s arse….

          If the plan had succeeded, those who at least considered themselves to be the previous ‘owners’, theye were going to say , “our bad”, and just take it on the chin.

          So we get to the real cause of the the arab/israeli conflict, arrant stupidity.

        • #2924853

          That just set the scene, Tony

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Ah so the root cause was in in fact a lack of adherrence

          There were a couple of revolts by Palestinian Arabs during the British Mandate period but these were quite ruthlessly suppressed. I can’t find out why, though.

          Partition was the next key event. By setting up the State of Israel, the UN breached its own charter. There was no reason, political, historical or emotional why the Arabs should be dispossessed. But they were and are.

          US and British history of the immediate aftermath of partition suggests that the surrounding Arab nations attacked immediately and were also responsible for the flight of the Arabs from within the Israeli borders (get out now and you can come back in a couple of days). The Arabs say different and refer to Israeli atrocities such as Deir Yassin where over a hundred Arab villagers were killed by Jewish troops.

          Whatever the truth of any of this, there were 700,000 refugees, descendants now numbering 4 million, who aren’t allowed back.

          1949 and now they REALLY, REALLY don’t like each other…

        • #2924767

          You don’t think the scene was set before then?

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to That just set the scene, Tony

          From your previous post:

          “It started with the Zionist movement and their idea to create a predominantly or completely Jewish homeland. Starting in the 19th century and continuing up to the present day, the Jewish National Fund bought land in the name of the Jewish people with the proviso that it could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs.

          The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of this agenda, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine.”

          Why was the potential of a Jewish state seen as a danger to Arab society? I can’t answer that question, but it seems to me there must have been some preceding events fuel these fears.

          Doesn’t Islam come from the same Pentateuch / Old Testament background as Judaism and Christianity? Doesn’t all this stem from Islam’s break from Judaism?

        • #2926819

          Or Judaism’s lack of recognition for the prophet

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to You don’t think the scene was set before then?

          Or some one sold them a bad camel.

          Maybe it was even that arab joke about sheep’s eyeballs being a delicacy, maybe they laughed too loud when a well meaning jew ate one?

          Perhaps their first ambassador was left handed?

          How far do you want to go back?

          You pick an event, there will be one before it that ‘justified’ a round of atrocity.

        • #2926915

          It’s hard to respect a religion that’s based upon……………………

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Or Judaism’s lack of recognition for the prophet

          the drug induced delusional halucinations of a carpet merchant, especially one who was considered raving mad but then isn’t Christianity based upon the teachings of a failed carpenter. At least he was an advocate of peace and love unlike Mohamed who advocates murder and mayhem. If you don’t believe that, read the Queran or Koran.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #2927043

          At least they are honest about it.

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Or Judaism’s lack of recognition for the prophet

          Given the murder and mayhem christianity has engendered, they can pat themselves on the back for not being total hypocrites.

        • #2925282

          Yeah, that’s hard to respect.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Or Judaism’s lack of recognition for the prophet

          There’s nothing more contemptible than interpreting the word of your god as justification to round up an army, invade a foreign land, slaughter every living soul you could find over some concept of ‘holy land’. Christianity never did anything like that (recently).

        • #2927083

          Another question about the Middle East

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to You don’t think the scene was set before then?

          Was/is it concern for Palestine that feeds this still, or hate for Israel?

          Always seemed like more of the later than the former….

        • #2927041

          Unable to respond.

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to Another question about the Middle East

          As I noted earlier, my personal opinion is that it’s all rooted in religious beliefs. As an atheist, I’m unqualified to regard one set of beliefs as more valid than another. I view the basic positions of both sides as unsupportable. Geez, the damn land will barely support agriculture.

        • #2927027

          Answer – Who do you hate more

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Another question about the Middle East

          As it has been shown over and over again, that once it gets down to just muslims, they will gleefully go about eradicating anyone that is the wrong flavor of islam…

          Being Jewish is a greater crime than being the wrong flavor, and the Palestinians are disposable.

        • #2925435

          the hate that feeds the war

          by john.a.wills ·

          In reply to Another question about the Middle East

          is the Zionist hate for the Palestinians. When the Zionists stop hating, there will be peace because when they stop hating there will be repatriation and restituion in accord with the Jewish mitzvah “lo tignov” (Dt 5:19).

        • #2925378

          You convenently ignore

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Another question about the Middle East

          who the aggressors are just about daily…

          The only piece offered to the Israelis is that of the grave.

          Yeah, back to “The Zionists” again, huh?

          What is your agenda? You have weakly claimed you are not anti-Israel, yet your every post says otherwise.

        • #2925358

          I think the level-headed Arab leaders

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Another question about the Middle East

          want Israel to remain where it is for as much of forever as possible. They surely prefer hating and killing a few Israeli, than hating and killing each other!

        • #2925347

          Finding a common enemy

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Another question about the Middle East

          Just like they continually try to paint the US as anti-muslim.

          Many weak minded fools in the world believe it.

        • #2926820

          If I remember right we didn’t exactly get on

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to That just set the scene, Tony

          with the jewish population while we were administering the place.

          I just fail to see the point of trying to get to who did what to whom, it no longer matters, if it ever did.

          It’s like trying to defin who started up the ‘Irish problem’. How far back do you want to go.

          Patrick and Edward fell out over a sabre tooth tiger haunch?

          Pick a side, write your own justification, just like every one else ever has.

        • #2924862

          They bought their nation

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Well, I’ll try. The start…

          As we see, the neighboring nations refusing to take in the “refugees”, after generations, shows their concern is NOT FOR the refugees, but AGAINST Israel.

          If they HAD cared about the refugees, they would have taken them in after they saw that the combined middle east wasn’t a match for Israel. BUT, if they did that, then there would no longer be a group of people to be leveraged in the Anti-Israel hate.

          That they do not show Israel on their maps is interesting.

          That they deny holocost openly, is interesting.

        • #2924849

          They didn’t buy it all

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to They bought their nation

          They took quite a lot of it by force of arms. And they haven’t – ever – given any of it back.

          A quote from a document authored by some US Jews, “Arab rejection was based on the fact that, while the population of the Jewish state was to be [only half] Jewish with the Jews owning less than 10% of the Jewish state land area, the Jews were to be established as the ruling body”.

          As for the refugees, WHY should the surrounding nations take them in? The refugees originally wanted to go home. Their descendants don’t really know WHAT they want as the whole thing is now mythology.

          The Israeli government passed the “Absentee Property Law” in 1950, which cleared the way for the confiscation of the property of refugees. This basically says “You can’t come back because we won’t let you and if you don’t come back we’re going to bulldoze your village and set up a Jewish settlement”.

          They are re-applying that law now in East Jerusalem.

          This is all common knowledge if you look past the media hype about “poor little Israel” who is “surrounded by enemies”. “The only democracy in the Middle East” is just bollocks. Of the ten million or so population, four million aren’t allowed to vote! Bet you can’t guess who THEY are. If you take Israel’s [b]legal[/b] borders then a good chunk of the voting population – including most of the government – live outside of Israel! All of this is Apartheid worse than South Africa.

          Neil 🙂

          The combined Middle East is surely a match for Israel except for the $4 billion that you pay them each year and the fact that the most sophisticated US military hardware is made freely available. Oh, and the fact the the IDF is brutal.

        • #2924783

          Democracy stood by while Germany fired up the Holocaust

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to They didn’t buy it all

          The collective sense of guilt is what helped Israel become established in what the Jewa considered there homeland and which it was prior to the establishment of Islam. Why another place couldn’t have been found for a Jewish homeland, is still a matter of intense debate.

          Neil you have it wrong about the IDF being brutal; they adhere fairly closely to the Geneva Convention, unlike the the Arabs who torture, rape and kill most of their prisoners. The IDF isn’t brutal so much as it is efficient.

          As a matter of curiosity, what can be expected from the Arabs as regards Israel, if and when they ever get their sh!t together and defeat Israel.

          Ever here of the right of conquest. Without that the Normans would have had to give Britain back to the Angles and Saxons, who in turn stole it from the Britons, Scots, Picts and probably numerous others. In that light the Israelis are mere amateurs.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #2924776

          Dawg: I so disagree with you on evry point

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Democracy stood by while Germany fired up the Holocaust

          If you use any argument for the formation of a “Jewish Homeland”, you have to alienate the Arabs. They took no part in the Holocaust – either overtly or by omission – and therefore should not share in the guilt. There hadn’t been more than a handful of Jews in Palestine for over a thousand years so that argument doesn’t wash. The final one – that God gave Israel to the Jews – is hugely insulting to the Arabs who, in their own way, are every bit as religious as the Jews or the Christians who were feeling the guilt.

          The IDF is brutal. The occasions where villages, apartment blocks and the like have been razed without regard for “collateral damage” are innumerable. You might call that efficiency, I call it brutality. Israel’s actions in the last Lebanese incursion were certainly NOT according to any convention – Geneva or otherwise.

          The thing that you have to take into account is that the Israelis are consistently held up as paragons of virtue – “the only democracy in the Middle East”. The US sees fit to label the surrounding Arab states as “terrorist states”.

          The Arabs will never defeat Israel. Israel has both sophisticated nuclear weapons AND the necessary delivery system. They would use them at the drop of a hat if it were not for the fact that this would probably cause the US to stoop supporting them. The US fear of Israeli nukes is what keeps the US buttoned up to Israel through thick and thin. The commitment by the US to keep Israel better armed than Saudi Arabia means that it costs the US $4 billion per annum and gains, in return, hatred.

          The right of conquest is generally not recognised as a reasonable foreign policy by [b]civilised[/b] nations. You make my point for me.

          I think that just about covers it…

          Neil 🙂

        • #2926699

          I’ve always wondered…

          by jessie ·

          In reply to Dawg: I so disagree with you on evry point

          Why, aside from the whole “religious homeland” thing, were the displaced Jews of the holocaust not given Germany? Seems to me there would have been enough collective guilt from those Germans who stood by and watched their friends and neighbors getting rounded up and put on trains or stuffed into ghettos that the Germans would have given up the goods without a fight… but we (the royal U.N. “we”)had to go “giving” land to a bunch of people who’d never lived there, that we didn’t own, hadn’t purchased, and that already had people who’d been there forever?

          Strikes me that the Palestinians and the American Indians have a lot in common… but the American Indians had been decimated enough that they couldn’t fight back too much when we gave them the American waste lands as a consolation prize.

        • #2926667

          Guilt for the holocaust is stronger now than it was then

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Dawg: I so disagree with you on evry point

          It was almost pretext for Nuremberg as far as the big three were concerned. As societies we weren’t aware of the full horror until much later.

          Stalin certainly didn’t want a nation of Jews next door.

          The americans wanted to ensure peace, so while the idea is just, putting them as far away as possible from their enemies must have seemed like a good idea.

          And everyone was conscious of Versaille, as our last attempt to kick the germans while they were down didn’t work out too well, in terms of world peace.

        • #2926511

          Your ignorance of the history of area

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Dawg: I so disagree with you on evry point

          [i][b]There hadn’t been more than a handful of Jews in Palestine for over a thousand years so that argument doesn’t wash[/i][/b]

          Various Arab government have had Jewish cabinet ministers and advisors. Wouldn’t you consider that strange for a mere “handful of Jews”???

        • #2926503

          Your lack of knowledge of the history of the area is typical.

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Dawg: I so disagree with you on evry point

          [i][b]There hadn’t been more than a handful of Jews in Palestine for over a thousand years so that argument doesn’t wash[/i][/b]

          Both “Jews” and “Arabs” are of the same racial stock; semetic. The Semetic peoples were a pain in the ass to western civilization even prior to the Roman Empire. The Phonecians, Carthaginians etc. were semetic in origin. Ask yourself what was the predominant religion of the area prior to Mohamed??? Prior to the Diaspora, the predominant religions of the area were Coptic Christianity and Judaism; with Judaism in predominance. Long before Islam had invaded Europe, Jews had spread throughout Europe but being the newcomers met with the antagonism of European Christianity. The Jews had never practised rights of conquest, what they did do was assimilate; witness the differences between Ashknazy Jews and Sephardic.

          Even after the establiishment of Islam, there remained significant populations of Jews throughout the region, so much so, that several “Arab” governments have had Jewish cabinent ministers and/or advisors. Witness Morocco, Jordan {under Hussein) and Iraq (under Sadaam). Even Quaddafi is said to have several Jewish advisors.

          This isn’t to say that Jews aren’t persecuted; they are but they were persecuted by the pogroms in Russia and several other supposedly civilized Western states. Remember Edward IV threw the jews out of England as did France and Spain.

          Palestinians are being led by a savage, brutal gang of religious fanatical thugs. Paleastine would have much more to gain by achieving peace with Israel than by continuing conflict. Both Jordan and Egypt have befitted by a cessation of conflict with Israel.

          Israeli technology is much more than it’s nuclear weaponry. Its irrigation and desalinization technologieswould and could do much for the people of the area.

          Also while going about being an apologist for Islam try to remember Islam first invaded Christian territory; at both ends of the Mediterranean.

          I doubt you’ve ever been in the Middle East but it seems you’ve been buying into Arab propaganda, assuming, that is, you haven’t already been bought and sold. Just be thankful you weren’t riding a bus or in the tube when the bombs went off.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #2926489

          Further up the thread, Dawg

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Dawg: I so disagree with you on evry point

          I made the point that serious Jewish immigration into the area started late in the 18th Century and that there was, relatively speaking, very few Jews in the are until then. I hold to that point.

          For the majority of the Second Millennium, the Palestine area was a sparsely populated, poorly cultivated and totally-neglected expanse of eroded hills, deserts and marshes.

          Firstly the Marmelukes wiped out most of the cities in the area in the 13th century. poisoning wells and generally making Palestine almost uninhabitable and uninhabited. The Black Death in 1351 just about finished the place off. The population dipped as low as 200,000. It is after this period that area became repopulated mainly by Levantine Muslims moving in from the area that is now Lebanon, Syria and Jordan.

          During the Ottoman Empire period, 16th to 19th Century, the Jewish population rose as high as 20% after the expulsion of Sephardic Jews from Spain by the Catholic Church, before the population dropped again following a number of massacres. Ashkenazi Jews started to move in from Eastern Europe towards the end of the Ottoman Empire.

          The lowest estimates claim there were about 410,000 Arab Muslims and Christians in Palestine by 1900 with other estimates running at 600,000 or so. At this time, the number of Jewish immigrants to Palestine was still negligible by all accounts. I have seen ratios of non-Jews to Jews at 90/10 and as low as 95/5 for the mid 1800s.

          Those who favour the Zionist version of history suggest that Arab influx into Palestine was mainly prompted by Jewish development of the area. It is unlikely that Palestinian immigration prior to 1900 was due to Zionist development.

          I don’t say that there were NO Jews in the area from the ending of the original Jewish state by the Romans. Jewish communities did continued to exist despite the fact that all of the successor governments tried to eliminate the Jews at one time or another.

          I just said that there weren’t many.

          There weren’t.

          Neil 🙂

          No offence, Dawg, but don’t tell me what I don’t know.

        • #2927023

          Dawg: The IRA killed the guy who sold me my morning paper

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Dawg: I so disagree with you on evry point

          Should I hate the Irish?

          I take mild offence at your suggestion that I have “bought into” Arab propaganda. What possible reason have I to favour the Arabs? What possible reason have I to favour the Israelis? Both are behaving in ways that any civilised person or state would – should – condemn.

          As a matter of fact, it was British-born Pakistani Muslims who blew up the tube trains and Saudi-Arabian Muslims who brought down the Twin Towers. Should I hate the whole Islamic religion? According to you, I should. according to me, I’ll be a little more particular about who I hate and why.

          I’m not an “apologist for Islam”. At its very best it’s just more mumbo-jumbo and flawed interpretations of The Book used to control people. Like some other religions that I could name.

          What I AM is someone who thinks that Israel should be taken to task for their excesses.

          Neil

          By the way, “typical” of what?

          p.s. key point which I’ve obviously got to keep making. My problem is not with JEWS, it’s with ISRAEL.

        • #2927009

          right of conquest

          by john.a.wills ·

          In reply to Dawg: I so disagree with you on evry point

          If the Israelis rule the Holy Land by right of conquest, they are obliged to protect the population, not engage in ethnic cleansing. And, of course, they should respect property rights, which they do not.

        • #2926912

          Just to throw this is

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Dawg: I so disagree with you on evry point

          “I made the point that serious Jewish immigration into the area started late in the 18th Century and that there was, relatively speaking, very few Jews in the are until then. I hold to that point.”

          Ok, lets look at some history now
          http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_israel_antiquity.php

          What? Ancient Egypt laid waste to Israel in 1210 BC? I think that is a bit older than the 18th century

          http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_first_jews.php

          Ok, Ok, so what you mean is they were kicked out, and in the 18th century started to return. However, there were more than a mere handful.

          Also, I ran into this piece (link after) which I thought interesting, since often you bring up the land stealing, and evicting people. I wonder where those tactics came from?

          ” Zionism was further fueled by continuing episodes of anti-Semitism, which included the slaughter of Jews and confiscation of their property, and which rose in frequency and intensity in the 19th century.”

          http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_zionism.php

        • #2927102

          “ethnic cleansing” John?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Dawg: I so disagree with you on evry point

          Sorry, I don’t recall Israel military rounding up and executing anyone that isn’t a Jew.

          If you are going to make a statement, stay away from intentionally inflammatory words that do not fit the situation, just to push your own agenda.

        • #2926815

          Nothing wrong with right of conquest

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Democracy stood by while Germany fired up the Holocaust

          as long as you do it properly.

          Israel could lose but it could never be defeated. Their desire was very simple they wanted somewhere where they were the majority. Quite rightly they don’t trust anyone to treat them humanely, and no european nation should ever ask them too.

          For many reasons jews do not integrate, so if they are a minority they are all going to be outsiders and different. People don’t like different, never have.
          They are no more accepted now, than they ever were, we just like to look more civilised than our forebears, so we tolerate them.

          That was the real lesson of the holocaust.

        • #2926705

          “And they haven’t – ever – given any of it back”

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to They didn’t buy it all

          Umm, did they not withdraw from Gaza? They were told the attacks would cease because there was nothing more to fight over. Funny, then there were MORE rocket attacks after their withdraw (under fire).

          Ok, Spoils of War for other areas. They all tried ganging up on Israel, so Israel defeated them and claimed a bit of land in the process. Why SHOULD they give it back?? So that the rockets will be fired from closer? So that when rockets are used, they will be more likely to hit a more worthwhile target?

          As for
          “This is all common knowledge if you look past the media hype about “poor little Israel” who is “surrounded by enemies”. ”

          First, I pay little attention to the media, and when I do, often it is not “poor little Israel”. it is “Israel launched an offensive”, “Israel bombed”, “Israel fired rockets”, “Israeli tanks crossed UN lines”, etc..

          You keep trying to make it sound like we all just get reports that Israel is getting picked on because nobody likes them.
          This is untrue, the media here has been pretty harsh with Israel, as well as Hezbollah, Hamas, etc.. However, because of the actions of their neighbors, they often appear to be ‘the good guys defending themselves’. And if it means taking more land to help secure their borders, then so be it!

          Take a look through History for the region! The Palestinions have never ruled in their region, it has always been under rule from abroad. How did that rule happen? What is different here? Heck, even Britian had rule established there! BTW, How did Britian gain so many islands and other lands??? Oh, was that by Force???

          You act as though because you are British, your way is right and every other way is wrong. Isnt that why they call it British Arrogance?

        • #2926677

          It was wrong. We stopped doing it. We gave it back,

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to “And they haven’t – ever – given any of it back”

          We have a few bits left which we’re sorting out. Northern Ireland is as close a parallel that we have complete with terrorism – funded by you nice chaps in the US through NORAID. One difference, though, is that Catholics in NI have the vote.

          The Scots will get the vote to see if they want to go their own way.

          I’d give Gibraltar back tomorrow and (before you ask) the Falklands didn’t have any indigenous people.

          As for Hezbollah and their rockets. What you have to do is provide some evidence that Hezbollah would exist and would be firing rockets if Israel didn’t occupy portions of Lebanese and Syrian territory.

          We have a cycle of violence. Israel reacts – hugely over-reacts – to Palestinian terrorist attacks and it keeps going round. If Israel is such a moral bastion, the only civilised country in the region (as we are consistently informed) then THEY have to take it on the chin and not (over)react to stop that cycle.

          I don’t remember too many cross-border incursions into Irish territory chasing the IRA. [b]We[/b] didn’t send a Harrier jet down to Dublin to put a rocket through IRA headquarters. “Bloody Sunday” is the worst that we did and it was stupid and wrong and only made things worse.

          Neil 🙂

        • #2927099

          Civilized does not equal victim

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to It was wrong. We stopped doing it. We gave it back,

          No civilized nation should EVER “take it on the chin”.

          When there is a cease fire, who is it that breaks it?

          Hezbollah intentionally puts the citizens at risk, but you blame Israel for shooting back. Hezbollah is not the innocent here, but the aggressor.

        • #2927109

          Something quite missing from your post Neil

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to They didn’t buy it all

          Are you saying the arab nations can’t out-spend the US in this case?

          Are you saying that the nations in the middle east are anything BUT brutal?

        • #2927085

          Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Something quite missing from your post Neil

          has more money than they have any idea what to do with. They would represent the biggest danger to Israel if the general ideas about “all Muslims” is true but we hear little from SA and likely wont unless an anti-West regime takes over.

          Throughout this thread, I’ve been searching for answers. I have some – I think – but there is loads of stuff about the US relationship with Israel that I don’t know. I would be interested in what game you think that the US is playing when you consider that they have given as much military aid to Egypt as they have given to Israel. I didn’t know this until about five minutes ago.

          As far as I can make out, there has been a tacit understanding between Israel and the United States for at least the last decade that while the U.S. may supply the same planes, tanks, or ships to both Israel and its potential enemies, Israel was to preserve its edge by the weapons systems aboard those platforms – better missiles, electronic warfare capabilities and computers.

          What game are you playing?

        • #2927081

          Iraq vs Iran

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          I remember reading how “we” played both sides of that. Both sides were helped, but only enough to ensure a stale-mate because “we” didn’t want EITHER nation to take over the other.

          Way to much “enemy of my enemy is my friend” crap through out the ages. Why I am to the point I don’t give a ratsass about what happened 50 years ago, and who did what then. If everyone was wrong, frig it.

          I care about NOW, and what can happen NOW.

          I do question how Israel responding to attacks on citizens is Israel being the brutal one’s here. Who is it INTENTIONALLY targeting citizens? Who is putting citizens in the crosshairs by intentionally and cowardly hiding among them, HOPING for civilian deaths to gain false sympathy?

          Sorry, but it is clear to me who is “brutal” here.

        • #2927068

          ISRAEL is intentionally targeting citizens

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          is what I’ve been saying throughout the thread.

          Israel goes after those it believes to be Palestinian and Hezbollah terrorists with complete disregard for potential or actual civilian casualties.

          In the recent Lebanese “war”, statements from Israeli government officials and military leaders suggested that the IDF blurred the distinction between civilians and combatants – or didn’t care.

          Their argument was that only people associated with Hezbollah remain in southern Lebanon, so all were legitimate targets of attack. What they totally ignored was that their immediate attacks totally trashed the infrastructure and that most Lebanese civilians were unable to get out because they were sick, wounded, did not have the means to leave or were providing essential civil services.

          Every single human rights organization that visited the area issued reports stating that the Israeli government and its forces seem to target civilians and exhibit reckless disregard for human life. Not one human rights non-governmental organization agreed with Israeli government statements that they are careful not to kill civilians and that civilians killed are “accidental”. In the two years 2006 to 2007 over 3700 Palestinian civilians were killed by Israeli forces including over 700 children.

          http://64.226.129.19/pmw/manager/features/display_message.asp?mid=487

        • #2927063

          “almost” indoctrinated?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          First of all, for a reporter/writer, Mr. HEDGES seems to be a horrible speaker. And yes, it has seemed clear for a long time that the youth have been indoctrinated into a life of nothing but hate and death. This mindwashing of an overbreeding population is not something that will be controlled by anything but a greater force, like Saddam showed in Iraq. Being a nice guy does nothing but get you and yours killed.

          Second, when a rocket is fired, what is Israel to do? Nothing?

        • #2925388

          The game as you call it was started by the UK in Europe.

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          The idea is to maintain an equilibrium by preventing any one nation being able to overwhelm its neighbors. During the age of nuclear power this came to be known as MAD or [i]Mutually Assured Destruction[/i]. Don’t you just love acronyms.

          The Israelis are not totally reliant on the US for their technology, witness the co-operation between Israel and South Africa in the development of the Kfir fighter and other weaponry.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #2925374

          Neil, I find it hard to believe you would buy into such a crock of crap.

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          If an “innocent civilian” population stands idly by and permits terrorist organizations to exist within their midst they can only expect and get what they deserve. As you just pointed out in another post there are many matters of which you were and are, unaware. I doubt you have ever been there but as someone who has I can only say your observations and opinions are warped to the extreme and are seriously in error. Israel isn’t totally innocent but in comparison to Fatah, Hamas, and Hezbollah, they appear as choirboys. BTW choice locations for Hamas or Hezbollah are similar to the locations Fatah used to use and that is usually next to schools and hospitals.

          I find it hard to believe that there still exists any sympathy for Islamic Palestinian terrorists in light of the recent terrorist attacks within the UK, whether or not they were Palestinian in origin or not. Your goverment permitted the import of Islamic cheap labour and is now having to pay the price of having them in your nation.

          Wasn’t it an Englishman who stated that people only get the type of government they deserve. I doubt he would have had organizations such as Hezbollah or Hamas in mind.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #2925312

          Crock of crap?

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          How do I get it through to you and just about everyone else here that I am NOT offering support for terrorist groups. What I AM doing is withholding my support from Israel.

          I am criticising Israel. I used to be a supporter of the State but, over the past decade, their actions have made me feel increasingly queasy. They are the masters of the pre-emptive strike.

          Regardless of the provocation, the response of Israel was and is always one of massive overreaction. This then obviously – why can none of you see it? – brings about a reaction from the Palestinians. As there is very little that the Palestinians can do, hemmed in as they are with all of their resources under Israel’s control, they throw rocks at tanks and troops with guns and blow themselves up.

          If you can’t begin to grasp the circumstances that could bring someone to that level then I despair for my fellow humans. I don’t ask you to agree with it, just try and see what it must take for someone to blow themselves to smithereens in the pursuit of a goal.

          I truly do not understand the attitude of Israel and, even less, do I understand the blind support from the US. Unless, of course, the US is playing some deep game to keep the area unstable and that would be really nasty to contemplate given the number of dead. I hope there is some other reason, however difficult for me to fathom.

          Dawg: If you insist on misreading my posts there isn’t a lot that I can do. I have to let it go, I’m done.

          Neil

        • #2925288

          The way it comes across Neil

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          If you only criticize one side, you are seen to support the other. A simple idea.

          I personally am in favor of NEVER having a “measured” response. It was one of the biggest flaws in the battle in Iraq, of not throwing everything we have at them to begin with and locking the place down. It was native for Bush to believe that the citizens would rise up to join us, especially after Bush Sr. let them think the same thing and then pulled back to let them be slaughtered.

          You make the price higher than people are willing to pay.

          Why is the birthrate three times the norm in the camps?
          To intentionally over populate?
          To intentionally make future human weapons?

          Is is suspect, to say the least, that a parent “can’t stop” the 12 year olds. [i] (providing the story is more than just a story)

        • #2925278

          Why do you expect Israel to lie down and roll over for terrorists???

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          [i][b][u]They are the masters of the pre-emptive strike.[/i][/b][/u]

          They certainly are but in the case of Hezbollah and Hamas, their response has only been reactionary. An example of a pre-emptive strike was when Israel took out the French built Iraqi nuclear installation some years ago or perhaps you might include the Entebbe raid. So far Israels response [b][i]has not[/b][/i] been in any way pre-emptive. It has been reactionary in nature. If they were acting pre-emptively, Palestine, Lebannon and large sectors of Syria would be a total waste land by now, not that it’s in much better shape now, thanks to the inability of the Muslim fanatics to live at peace and develop the area. The Palestinian people would only gain by peace with Israel but that is contrary to the desires of the Muslim fanatics. As I have said, repeatedly, I’ve been there and seen with my own eyes how the Israelis live and how their Islamic neighbours live. Both Jordan and Egypt have gained much more through peaceful co-existence with Israel than they ever did through war.

          BTW more Palestinians are killed,daily, by their own kind than by anything the Israelis do. That’s something that never, if ever, seems to make the papers.

          [b][i]Why can’t [u]you[/u] understand and see that!!![/b][/i]

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #2925258

          The problem is, jd

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          that I can’t – won’t – do “simple”. None of this is “simple”. Too many people are dead for it to deserve “simple”.

          Nowhere in my posts do I support those who commit terrorist acts against Israel or anyone else. Until my last post to Dawg, I don’t believe that I attempt offer any reason as to why they might do what they do.

          If you choose to see “the enemy of my friend is my enemy” or some other simplistic bollocks then that’s the way you see it and there is little that I can do. Really, there is little that I care to do.

          Neil 🙁

        • #2925250

          Neil the terrorism you claim you are against, is the same terrorism…….

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          that Israel has had to contend with since 1948 and what every Jew has had to contend with since the Diaspora. Since they were rightly, or wrongly, given their “homeland” in 1948 most Jews have made it there motto: [b]Never again.[/b]

          I can’t say I blame them and having spent some time in every decade, in the Mid-East, since 1962,(I was last in Syria, Egypt and Libya in 2004) I’ve seen what the Israelis have built for themselves and keep asking why the other nations can’t live in a similar fashion. I’ve done business all over the Mid-East, not just in Israel. I see how the people live and have seen the benefits of peace in Jordan and Egypt. Why is it that every other Arab nation will not tolerate a Palestinian presence beyond a certain size. Even Syria has forcibly deported many people of Palestinian origin, a fact conveniently ignored by the so called peace lovers of this world. Are you sure you aren’t biased against Israel and the Jews???

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

          P.S. BTW [b]I[/b] don’t think you are biased but feel you are naively ill-informed. [b]D[/b] ]:)

        • #2925247

          Irgun

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          .

        • #2925230

          Why can’t the other….

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          US$30 billion reasons why Lebanon, population 4 million, invaded twice by Israel and by once by Syria and victim of major sectarian violence and, just when they were getting their sh:t together, trashed by Israel (three times. Count it, three) again…

          You know, Dawg, I have no f*cking idea why they don’t have the same standard of living in Lebanon as they do in Israel.

          ?:|

        • #2925222

          It does come down to a simple question (or two questions)

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          The two questions:

          1. Does Israel have a right to exist in its current geographical location, and will you recognize and respect that right to exist, including no longer threatening that right or threatening to seek that State’s destruction?

          If the answer to question number one is yes (in both actions and words), then go to question number two.

          2. How should the border disputes be settled, either amongst the neighboring parties themselves and/or with influence from the outside (U.S., U.K., U.N., etc.)

          However, if the answer to question number one is no (all or in part), then any answer to question number two is a moot point. In such a case, Israel does, in my opinion, have every right to wage full and total war against those seeking their destruction, even taking it to the point of demanding full and unconditional surrender from those enemies, including taking whatever land conquest they deem appropriate.

          An analogy: If terrorist factions from Mexico were hell-bent on taking back the Southwest United States, and the nation-state of Mexico publicly supported such actions, and their tactics included bombings, lobbing missiles into Texas, kidnapping and killing US citizens, etc, the U.S. would be justified to wage full and total war against Mexico, demanding unconditional surrender.

          How are my two questions flawed?

          How is my analogy flawed?

          P.S. As a disclaimer. I firmly believe that the radical wing of Islam (I think you know who and what I mean) is on a mission to kill all Jews and Christians they consider infidel, and to spread their ideology across the globe by whatever means possible. Their agenda is not negotiable. I support any and all efforts to stop them. I further believe they have sleeper cells all across the globe, and if they’re not dealt with now – however painful it might be – they’ll have to be dealt with later, causing much more pain in the long run. And to exacerbate the problem, we see socialistic and political correct nonsense actually aiding their mission. France and Bridget Bardot are only one case in point. I also believe that this current threat, as I described, makes Adolph Hitler look like childs-play.

        • #2925207

          The reason why Lebannon does not have the same standard of living as Israel

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          The sad truth, in 1962 it had the best standard of living in the whole Middle East. Beirut was known as the [i][b]”Paris of North Africa”[/i][/b] and was a centre of international banking and finance almost on a par with Zurich. Then the Palestinians arrived after being kicked out of Jordan and the downward spiral began. First it was Christians against Muslims and then Syria arrived. Syria used and uses the Palastinians in Lebannon as proxies in attacking Israel.

          To answer your Irgun comment I would say the British Army.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #2925204

          Maxwell: I hate “simple”

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          The State of Israel exists – that is a fact. whether it should have been created is now academic for those of us outside the region. It exists.

          For those inside the region, the debate is so obviously not over.

          Yes, Israel does have the right to protect its borders. No debate on the right. Whether it has the right to “protect” borders that were taken by force in a war the Israelis started IS a point for debate. The strategy that it uses to “protect” these borders IS a point for debate. Its actions outside of those borders ARE matters for debate.

          “Destruction” in the way that some groups have proposed isn’t an option as it just isn’t going to happen. Israel is the world’s fifth or sixth strongest nuclear power and may well have more nukes that the UK. Unlike the UK, they would almost certainly use them in extremis. Don’t think that surrounding Arab governments don’t know that and don’t think, for a minute, that the Palestinian groups care what the Arab governments think.

          I guess that “full and total war” is something that you do and I just don’t. Personally, I prefer “measured response” and “measured response” does not involve dropping cluster bombs on civilians [b]under any circumstances[/b]. No matter how many f*cking rockets they fire at you.

          We will just have to disagree about “Radical Islam”, I have problems with global conspiracies. No doubt I’ll be speaking Farsi unless the US bails us out.

          Neil 🙂

          p.s. Yet again I ask, “Why did the British government not send a Harrier jet down to Dublin to put a couple of rockets through the window of IRA headquarters?” back in the 1970s.

        • #2925192

          Neil, I know you don’t like “simple”

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          But sometimes attempting to see things in simple terms will, in the very least, point a person in the right direction so the more complicated details can be better addressed.

          Regarding[i] full and total war[/i] versus a [i] measured response[/i], while both have their flaws (the understatement of the year), the former, in the very least, has some semblance of finality to it, while the latter seldom (if ever) solves the underlying problem. The former defeats an enemy, while the latter, at best, contains it. The notion, “[i]To the victor goes the spoils of war[/i]” not only can put finality to a conflict, but when faced with such an outcome, could indeed act as a very strong deterrent. The [i]measured responses[/i] in the middle-east have not only solved nothing, but have caused this problem to linger on for so long that most people have no idea what started it all in the first place. I prefer finality to a problem.

          I also know that we disagree about “Radical Islam”. Unfortunately, all too often, the only retort you appear to have is an attempt to discredit the opposing view by using terms like [i]global conspiracies[/i]. You don’t like “simple”, and I don’t like to be pigeon-holed into believing in “global conspiracies”.

          I’ll not comment on your obvious sarcasm, “[i]No doubt I’ll be speaking Farsi unless the US bails us out.[/i]”, except to suggest it belongs in the same category as your use of [i]global conspiracies[/i].

          You asked, “[i]Why did the British government not send a Harrier jet down to Dublin to put a couple of rockets through the window of IRA headquarters back in the 1970s?”[/i] I have no idea – except perhaps it’s because the Harrier jet wasn’t commissioned into service until the 1980s!

        • #2925171

          Neil, a slightly impertinent question for you.

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          Back in the bad old days of the [i]”Cold”[/i] War were you one of those who advocated peace at any price; even if any price meant unilateral disarmament??? I am not implying anything here but I am curious. You have grown up in an England that survived, barely, The Second World War. I would have thought you would have learned by now that policies of appeasement never work. They didn’t work for Ethelred the Unready and they didn’t work for Neville Chamberlain.
          I think you are fortunate to have never had to live during any serious conflict wherein the matter of your daily existence would be threatened.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #2925158

          Neil — one more

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          ” Unlike the UK, they would almost certainly use them in extremis”

          really? Then why have them at all? It is to show deterrent only? What would happen in an extreme, say France (lol), Spain, Norway, and Germany attacked your island, and y’all were being overrun. I think you’d let ’em fly

        • #2915354

          Dawg, Maxwell and Techman

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          techman first as it’s fairly straightforward. It has long been UK government policy that we would not use them as a first-strike weapon. They would have to be used against us first. I can’t actually conceive of a scenario in the near or mid future – my lifetime – where they would be used against us and we would have a clear idea of where and against who to strike back.

          I think the Israelis would adopt a much more “robust” approach.

          Dawg, you still insist on putting things in black and white. I don’t advocate appeasement for the Israelis but I DO advocate that they try and tone down the idea that its acceptable to take out an apartment block [b]in another country[/b] to kill one man who might not even be there. The idea that that attitude will deter the Palestinians is so obviously wrong that the next, inevitable step is to wall off the whole area and that is what they are doing. Where does THAT end?

          Maxwell, total war? How total? More than they did to Lebanon a couple of years ago? did that work?

          Neil 🙂

          By the way, The Hawker Siddeley Harrier GR.1 first flew on 28 December 1967, and entered service with the RAF on 1 April 1969. If we’d have toasted the IRA’s HQ and everyone in it, it would have been the early 70s the first time. 1982 was when the Harriers were first used in real combat in the Falklands War.

        • #2915276

          Neil – In that case

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          I stand corrected. But I still can’t answer your question.

        • #2915149

          My point Neil

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          You have gone into what is wrong with Israel and the support they get from the US.

          You have not gone into what is wrong with the other side of the coin.

          If you do not favor one side or the other, why only criticize the one side and the people that support it?

          That is the point I was trying to make.

        • #2915145

          jd: I was a lone voice

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          I was trying to find out WHY the support for Israel was so absolute. I still am. We all know – or believe we know – what the terrorist organisations do and how they do it. What we missed in this discussion were two things: What the Israelis do that could be considered terrorism and why the terrorists do what they do.

          No-one in this thread or in previous threads on Iraq have ever considered that it might not be about religion, but about nationalism. You guys all understand about freedom and how you would feel if someone came in and gave away or took your land. That’s what the partition and the subsequent Israeli conflicts did to the surrounding countries yet this is largely ignored with cries of “Muslim Terrorists!” and even some of “Global Muslim Conspiracy!”.

          Ah, well…

          Neil 🙂

        • #2915133

          Many will never accept

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          Returning fire as an act of terrorism.

          Many will always accept firing rockets at civilian targets terrorism.

          Many will always accept blowing up buses and discos full of civilians as terrorism.

          Between the two, it isn’t a hard choice for me.

          I, quite unlike you, so not believe is such a thing as “measured response”. If someone came after me, I would not apply “reasonable force”. I would apply all that I have to remove that threat. I will not fault Israel for doing the same.

          We will not see eye-to-eye on this one, because I will never feel that Israel should as you said “take it on the chin”.

          The organizations providing the rockets needs to be tracked down and exterminated, instead of replying one at a time, dozens of times a day.

          There will never be peace in the Middle East until either Israel is wiped out, or they take out the neighboring nations, sadly. The surrounding nations will only stop when they are dead.

        • #2915124

          Yet some do

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          at least for the moment.

          Saudi Arabia doesn’t seem to be majorly involved in financing or encouraging anti-Israeli activity. Saudi Arabia supports the position that Israel must withdraw from territory occupied in June 1967.

          Jordan has signed a treaty with Israel and now has normal relations.

          Egypt signed a peace treaty thirty years ago when Israel agreed to withdraw from Sinai, captured in the 1967 war. Unfortunately, though, the political climate in Egypt is changing and peace may not last.

          Israel has normal diplomatic relations with quite a few Muslim countries outside of the Arab League.

          it can be done.

        • #2915115

          JD/Neil, so you are in favor of

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          JD, you are in favor of invading Iran???
          from what I have read, rockets and money has been coming from Iran to be used against Israel. However, we are not in a good enough position in the region to start this war.

          I will also concede that some of the Israeli responses have baen a bit over-done, such as Lebanon. While I did not disagree with this battle, I did disagree with sending missiles to apartment buildings just because 1 or 2 Hezbollah were there. I also thought that they took the business buildings a bit too far. Did you see photos of downtown areas afterwards? Holy Cr@p, they were sent back to the stone age!

          However, I disagree with most of Neil’s assessment. If they are being fired upon, they should not just accept it, specially if it is happening often. The NEED to get to the root of the problem, and remove it. That is what the whole Lebanon thing was about. They let Lebanon militia build up for too long. Just like now, they have allowed Hamas to build up too long.
          Personally, I would have no problem with an invasion of both, to root out these terrorist groups, and afterwards, to be able to work with the remainder f the populations for Peace.
          However, I doubt it would happen, if they invaded, it would just cause More Hate.

          This is the real problem there, how do they create a state of tolerance with each other, and remove the hatred. The hatred in the region runs deep in some, and others just dont care!

          JD has may points right (in my mind at least), who breaks the cease fire(s)? Who has been promising one thing, and then sneaking to another attack?
          Israel has no real recourse but to Defend Themselves against such open hostilities. And, unfortunately, it is not in Neils world where they can just say “lets be friends” and it is all good again.
          As for giving back land, there have been attempts to let areas govern themselves. How does it turn out –More Hostilities! Israel looks weak whenever they pull back, and this emboldens the enemy/terrorists. Also, these groups will suddenly get a surge of finances because ‘they defeated the Israeli war machine’ .
          So, what does Israel really give up if they pull out of an area? Not just some land, but security AND the increase in enemies that are better funded than they were.

          What is the solution? I cannot say. But it is not to retreat or stand down!

        • #2915107

          It will never be enough

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          There will always be a group displeased until Israel is gone.

          As in the link you provided Neil, when their own children are brainwashed and sent out knowing nothing but hate, things will only get worse.

          The more land Israel gives “back”, the closer the launching zones are to fire more rockets from. And that is all dependent about if we care about sorting out back dependent upon what time stream.

          The generations that are intentionally over breeding, under destitute conditions, are not exactly doing anything to improve their position, now are they? If you are actively making your own situation worse, you lose a lot of the sympathy you might have once got.

        • #2915100

          Scummy…

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          when you posted “if they invaded, it would just cause More Hate”, did you actually stop to think what you wrote? If MORE invasion would cause MORE hate, is it not obvious that previous invasions caused the hatred that now exists?

          Don’t take my word for it but it may interest you to know that Hezbollah DID NOT EXIST before Israel invaded South Lebanon in 1982. They continued terrorist acts against Israel after the Israelis withdrew. admittedly. Their justification is that there is still disputed territory that Israel captured from Syria in 1967 which Hezbollah says belongs to Lebanon which wasn’t involved in the 1967 war.

          Neil

          If you invade Iran it will be the most stupid act since the invasion of Iraq. More to the point, WHAT THE F*CK HAS IT GOT TO DO WITH YOU? Just asking, mind.

          Check out Iran’s military capability. They represent no danger to Israel other than the aid that they give that enables the relative flea-bites of the terrorists.

        • #2915075

          I only brought up Iran because of

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others

          JD’s comment. Yes, I agree, at this time it would be a horrific mistake, and very, very costly…

          And yes, I understand my comment clearly. More incursions will spread more hate. However, they cannot just back away and constantly just ‘take the hit’, nor can they just give the land back, because it will not change anything except how well their missile strikes will hit their targets.

          That is why I said that I do not have an answer to what should be done. Maybe an all out total war until only 1 side is victorious? (Did I just say that???)
          But this would totally alienate Israel from the rest of the world, and would bring more and more money to the terrorists fighting them. And then what? nope, not the answer.
          How about incursion squads to seek out and kill everyone associated with their enemies? Again, this would just promote more problems, especially internationally.

          Israel is in a tough spot, with no clear path that does not look like genocide or over-reaction. Do you have a better plan that will work? Talks have not done anything previously! giving land back brings More not Less hostilities! Is there a solution here?

          My only solution that has a chance of working would be an international peace keeping force in the region, which will actively take down organizations such as Hezbollah and Hamas. But even then, would this work? And how much would it cost?
          This is a very tough situation to try to remedy, especially when all options seem to fall apart short of just blatantly killing everyone!

    • #2926497

      A happy day for Lebanon

      by r_o_l_a_n_d ·

      In reply to A Sad Day for Israel

      first of all, i assume we all subdue to the world peace concept that the UN is based upon.
      moreover, i assume once again (hopefully im not mistaken) that we all agree to the human rights and every single right given to citizens of the world by natural order or UN’s affirmation of such rights.
      with that in i quote the following:
      According to 1982 UN resolution that affirms, ?the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle.”

      now reading such a statement, i assume that every foreign occupation gives the citizens of the occupied country the rightful and sacred right of resistance.

      now once again having such a concept in mind, let me run this scenario for you all.
      i’m happily married living living in my own house, where suddenly some powerful gangster decides to give half of my house to some poor family.
      that family endured a lot! a serial killer went after it and almost exterminated it which gave the gangster a kind of soft spot for them.
      now on the other hand, that family had real presence in that gangster’s organization, and since that gangster was in for a hell of a fight with another gangster trying to broaden his domain of control, he came with the idea of strengthen his inner house so to speak to be able to have a stronger infrastructure for the mess hes going to get into.
      in return for that, he promised that poor family to give them a house of their own, and suddenly he picked my house! and as he is the powerful gangster on the scene, he got away with it at first.
      naturally, i didnt like the idea, i tried my best to kick out the new family, even though their poor life story was heart breaking, though that doesnt give them the right to occupy my own place does it!

      now after a few years of resistance, where my kids got murdered, starved to death, the women of my family ended up working for those who occupied my own house. some far away smart ass, decided that the resistance that my family is giving to fight off those who occupied my land, is a pure form of terrorism.

      thats the end of my lil scenario 🙂

      now to get back to what you actually wrote.
      if i read your article 2 years ago, i would’ve completely agreed, actually i wouldve supported you 200 %.
      though right now! well let me share something with you:)

      i’m lebanese,i used to have the same point of view about hizbolla and lebanon as a whole that you have at the moment.
      last summer, i was spending for the first time a 1 month vacation in lebanon due to the fact that syria finally went out of lebanon.
      and suddenly! israel started bombing lebanon.
      at first i said, wtf is wrong with hizbolla to do such a thing and abduct these 2 soldiers, till i witnessed how israel returned the favor by to lebanese innocent citizens by showering them with shells that they got from the states and UK.
      i will never forget the =videos of lil israely kids writing on smart bombs that are to be dropped over innocent lebanese civilans “from israel with love” something that i sent my US partners copies of, and now they share the same point of view as i.
      i went to “dahia” the place that israel bombed the most to find that hizbolla supporters arent that different than me! they believed in one cause, and thats the indepe of their country. after speaking to so many of them, after staying nights visiting more than one family that loved hizbolla to death. i came to one conclusion.

      zionism, is the new age nazism.
      it actually made me proud to be lebanese again, and as you can see i moved my entire family and buisness to lebanon. and i encouraged 4 out of 6 american partners that i had back in the states to moove with me to leb.
      and i’m telling you! for the first time in a long time, i am proud of the lebanese resistance . i am the son of that land that israel occupied. that israel bombed its countrymen. that israel killed its innocent women and children.
      now what made me laugh, is you saying that hizbolla wants one thing and only one, and thats to kill every jew, well hey ! guess what! my wife is a lebanese jew, she and her entire family believes in hizbolla and supports them. a while back i was in my bro’s in law barmitsfa. and almost everyone there stood still watching “nasralla” talking about israel.
      and they all started swearing at the zinosim that made jews the new age nazist.
      my wife’s grandmother shes 104 years old, shes german, she lived through the nazi age. she doesnt speak english much, she only speaks hebrew and german.
      her only english words are, “jew isnt zionis” wht she means is that the jews has nothing to do with zionism.
      so i wonder how people half way around the earth saying that hizbolla are terrorists and not a legit resistance, and they want to exterminate the jews, when the jews that i know who are lebanese and living in lebanon, believe the actual opposite and wish that hizbolla eradicated zinoists from israel!

      hmm i wonder..

      • #2926922

        Two sides to every story

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to A happy day for Lebanon

        One group’s sad day is another group’s happy one. Another example of the equality of the Internet.

        Disclaimer: I don’t care about either side in this debate.

        • #2927138

          Three sides to every story

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Two sides to every story

          The one side, the other side, and the truth.

        • #2927111

          Still waiting

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Three sides to every story

          for option three to come along.

          I don’t see it in the post that started this thread, but a very biased and distorted view, intentionally leaving a lot out.

    • #2927090

      Why would Israel hear the plea?

      by the ‘g-man.’ ·

      In reply to A Sad Day for Israel

      Of a post on a Technical Website called Techrepublic? Besides I have other things to worry about than the state of another country and it’s wars – like my own and it’s!

    • #2925221

      As An American Christian

      by jacksavage20 ·

      In reply to A Sad Day for Israel

      I do dread the day American policies turn against Israel. The Muslim population in Europe has overtaken and will be a minority not much longer. There will and is no room for negotiation Israel is the only ally we will have over there in 15 years.

      • #2925159

        Your Doomsday prophecy is a tad premature.There’s not that many Muslims yet

        by sleepin’dawg ·

        In reply to As An American Christian

        Besides what does being a Christian have to do with anything.

        [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

      • #2915336

        Just a minor quiblette

        by neilb@uk ·

        In reply to As An American Christian

        The total population of Europe is around 750 million. The number of Muslims is estimated as 50 million and half of those are in Russia. Western Europe’s population is around 300 million of whom 13 million are Muslim, half of those in France.

        Personally, I think we’ll hold back the rampaging Islamic hordes for the next year or two.

        Neil 🙂

        • #2915266

          Better watch out Neil

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Just a minor quiblette

          in a few more weeks, they’ll be over-running you lot :^0

        • #2915262

          They are already

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Better watch out Neil

          I sit next to a Muslim convert and they are the worst! He has declared Jihad if I steal any more of his biscuits.

          :p

        • #2915253

          :0 Watch Your Back!!!

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to They are already

          Personal Jihad is the worst… He can ‘get you’ anytime he wants (and anyone around you). You really should offer to give some Gravy to him next time you snag dem biscuits 😀

        • #2915213

          Ah, cultural differences…

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to :0 Watch Your Back!!!

          The biscuits that I’m talking about are what you Yanks would call “cookies” although I’m not sure that Chocolate Hobnobs translates into the American.

          Doesn’t really work with gravy…

          Neil

        • #2915170

          Oh no…

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to Ah, cultural differences…

          Don’t let my wife see those chocolate hobnobs. She has long been a fan of chocolate digestives, but had chocolate hobnobs for the first time when we were over there in May.
          She bought 4 packs and ate 1 pack a day! :0 Actually, to be fair, I think I had 2 from all of the packs collectively. ;\

        • #2915152

          I am a fan of Thin Mints

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Ah, cultural differences…

          I am bummed out though, because the girl scouts USED to have their sale in time for hunting season in November, but now it isn’t until December. No Thin Mints for dear camp!

          And Neil, if you meant cookies, SAY cookies! :p

        • #2915142

          Ahhh, now I see

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Ah, cultural differences…

          however if you meant cookies, then why say biscuits???
          Yes, those are the kinds of things that disappear without a trace..
          Blame it on someone else 😀

          Or, at least, bring in something once in a while that he can snag (tis better than a Jihad)

        • #2915134

          McVities Chocolate Hobnobs are far beyond mere cookies

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Ah, cultural differences…

          Just ask Jelli’s missus if you don’t believe me. Tip: They are even better if you keep them in the ‘fridge.

          I am not allowed to buy them as I will scoff an entire packet without pausing to breathe.

          Neil :0

        • #2915129

          As long as everyone gets

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Ah, cultural differences…

          their cookies..it doesn’t matter much what we call them, right?

          🙂

        • #2915030

          Hobnobs

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to Ah, cultural differences…

          Neil, my wife can pack those things away too (actually she is like that with most sweets). She is only 125 lbs, but she can put stuff away alright.
          I generally don’t get a look in with sweets, as it is gone by the time I get home from work. 🙁

        • #2915248

          There is a concern

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Just a minor quiblette

          because of all the politically correct BS, including what you have seen first hand, gives this minority a large voice.

          We don’t see hesitation to insult Christians, but people don’t DARE offend the Muslims. It is fashionable to be pro-muslim and anti-Christian.

          There is even serious consideration in many civilized parts of the world to allow sharia law, which has no place in any civilized nation.

        • #2915173

          “No place in any civilised nation”

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to There is a concern

          Those societies where it is in place and they are ‘happy’ with it wouldn’t agree with you.

          So you wish to impose your (perhaps some our) ideas of what civilsiation should be. Worse still, What you are really talking about is a morality, very changeable subjective concept.

          We have different morals, never mind us and Ali. I for instance have no time for child sacrifice and ritual canibalism…

          I’m not pro-muslim never have been. I’ve always been anti-christian since that git in the frock with his collar on backwards tried to drown me for my own good.

          Another imposition, why are people surprised when I go out of my way to upset those who think it was ‘civilised’ to do that….

          If you want to smack them about so they’ll do as they are told, fine, don’t give me this crap about civilised though. Civilise is what Cortez did to the Aztec, and what our ancestors did to the indians. Smacked them about and then excused themselves with mealy mouthed justifications of civilsed behaviour.

        • #2915160

          Ask the women if they would like to live under it

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to “No place in any civilised nation”

          4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (MAS Abdel Haleem, the Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)

          Sentences Imposed for Alleged Homosexual Conduct Violate Basic Rights
          http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/saudi_arabia/saudinews040.htm

          It was the barbaric sharia law that backed up the call for the death of Salman Rushdie.

          Iran: Academic?s Death Sentence Condemned
          http://hrw.org/press/2002/11/iranacademic.htm

          You must never have actually read anything about sharia to even partially support it as anything but barbaric, and MY sense of morality has nothing to do with it. There is NOTHING civilized about it or it’s followers.

        • #2917430

          So Eve getting the blame, wasn’t an attack on womenhood

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Ask the women if they would like to live under it

          The Salem witch trials…

          Jesus getting his feet washed in some bint’s hair…..

          As for homosexuality, don’t even go there.

          I give you Alan Turing…….

          And there’s no way the good and christian church ever offed someone for writing ‘erm objectionable material is there?

          If you want something western powers really get annoyed about Sharia law, here you go.

          Hacking people’s heads off isn’t bad for business, this stuff though…

          http://www.welfare.qmul.ac.uk/money/sharia.html

        • #2916926

          I don’t know about the Quranic version…

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to So Eve getting the blame, wasn’t an attack on womenhood

          of the creation story, but I do the Biblical.

          Eve shared the blame with Adam and the serpent. God punished all three. Furthermore, Adam was an utter wuss. First thing, he caved in to Eve, second thing, as soon as God asked he blamed Eve in blatant attempt to shrug off his own responsibility in the matter.

        • #2914684

          My point exacty after all, it was written by a set of blokes

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to So Eve getting the blame, wasn’t an attack on womenhood

          Ones who valued their first born son before anything else. Thought, womens hair made suitable towels. Viewed women as the source of lust, ( sort of correct :p ).

          They were celibate, mysogynists, had an extrme over-reaction to the hedonistic behaviour of a dying Rome, in short a product of their times.

          Not ours, so the bible keeps getting revised, re-interpreted, modernised…

          Yet apparently when it comes to other religious documents we have to take the learned and of course completely unbiased cherry picked interpretation of someone else.

          Substitute chastise for beat…..

      • #2915179

        Nothing to do with the muslim population in Europe

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to As An American Christian

        Lot’s to do with the european one though.

        Personally I’ll be quite chuffed when the number of religous people of various flavours balances out, maybe they can mess with each other then and leave me alone…

    • #2915271

      better future will come….

      by sadidsahmai ·

      In reply to A Sad Day for Israel

      I’m an student from Iran!
      I know this name: Iran, dosn’t remind you good things….Ahmadi Nejad, Nuc. Program. 5+1 , Holocost, …
      I know that most of bad thing have come together to make this background….(but I’m inviting you to search and know more…not just this devil stuff..)
      OK! I think the problem which has discussed here has many deep and tiny factor that you don’t cosider….
      here is MiddleEast, a region with many different cultures,different nations, languages, and different religions in a half or 1/3 of U.S ..very close to each other……….but with very long history of ancient civilzation,religions, War, and Culture and also Dictatorship…..
      DictatorShip and Religion has a long and deep roots here……
      take a look at West Policy to this oily region of the world……………..U.S blame Iran and some similar countries… for thier Totaliter goverments,… and call Saudi Arabia,Kuwait,Egypt,Jordan,even Turkey… as their great friends………..but all of them are same……….all of them have a totaliter goverment ………… almost all of Middle Eastern Countries has govern by a Dictator or sth similar……….
      I don’t want to write about the past……….and political issues….
      I hate Dictator Ship…………..I love Democracy and Humanity……….
      but it’s not fair…………….. you said sth…true/false….. but not all of the fact……………take a look at your comments………some one say sth like those Exteremists say……Wipe,3rd War,Kill,Destroy,”The Hezbollah are murderers, liars and thieves and they should be treated as such”……..nobody talk about……education……democracy……and communication…..
      I hope for a day that both sides…….Iran,US…….Israil,Palestinians……….Turks,Kurds,,,,,,,,Sunnies,Shias….Minorities/Majorities…..to talk.

      hope for listening ……… hope form more conversation between sides………hope for more talk and less violance…..
      currently neither Israil nor Palestain…neither Iran nor U.S….niether X nor Y…..listen to each other both side just say thier comments and both side let extremist and disform minds take the final desicion.
      you must consider that most of Terrorist Ideas actully have Political root rather religious issues………I’m a secular….but most of thier theoritical ideas hasn’t related to Islam,… the Islam and similar things is just an excuse to implement thier ideas ang gathering some ignorant and stupid people…..take a look at them….Taliban…….Ben-Ladan……..I don’t know..you konw better…….Terrorists…………….what you see? I say Un-Educated and Un-Civilized persons…….They’re not living in this age………..they belong to differnt time……..many years ago………why?

      but the future is bright and hopefull…………..we need education and it’s improving faster and faster………….we need better networking infrastructure, going forward even improving by years………better networking to communicate with other part of the world…to come to closer……………….I am hopefull because of IT and new technologies and thier capabilty to give the chance to people to talk………to listen to themselves………..to experience humanity and love………people in this age has better and more chance to understand that “The Earth” is thier actual country/home and “The Universe” is thier land and …..
      this and next generations has more power to govern the goverments to come closer….

      sorry for long comment and poor english writing………….I hope to describe my oponion wihtout leading to misunderestanding bcz of my poor english.

      • #2915254

        Actually, it wasnt too bad

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to better future will come….

        Thank you for posting.
        I do agree that more talks also need Listening on the other side.
        It also sounds like you are all in dire need of more schools/education. However from my understanding, the erligious leaders for many clans/communities forbid this, and are taught only what they want to have taught.
        Until this changes (not likely soon), there will always be widespread Un-education.

        As for your opinion — It came across just fine.

        • #2915168

          Un-education…

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to Actually, it wasnt too bad

          Are we any better off here? :0 ;\

        • #2915141

          :^0

          by the scummy one ·

          In reply to Un-education…

          I was waiting to see if there would be a reply to that!

          I have an excuse, I wrote it in the BC era (before caffeine). I was making the coffee when I typed it.

          So, then when I got to work I went to edit, but alas, I am using Scummy’s account and it wont let me edit 🙁

        • #2914920

          Pluralism

          by sadidsahmai ·

          In reply to Actually, it wasnt too bad

          The fact is in the most of regions in the Middle East there is an widespread education between new generations!! not like modern countries(Quality and Quantity) but there isn’t very much difference also!! here in Iran, governments have a great problem to provide enough chance for high school students for going to university (more than 1 million student in a year for a 70 million’s population country!) but the problem is in the democracy and pluralism or secularism ,… concepts and the disappointing fact is most of this educated people study less than a 20min a day!!! (without consider their professional fields) so they need democracy and freedom also and so education itself isn’t enough.
          but I believe The Controlled Education in a Ideological Government also better than nothing….bcz such an educated person won’t become a extremist…..so education is just one of the factors……ME also need democracy, freedom, more Communication to the world, and less Dictator-growing by the West.

          ps.I don’t mean that the roots of dictators in the M.E. is in the west policy I mean just they usually help some of them and blame the others upon their situations.

    • #2915268

      better future will come….

      by sadidsahmai ·

      In reply to A Sad Day for Israel

      I’m an student from Iran!
      I know this name: Iran, dosn’t remind you good things….Ahmadi Nejad, Nuc. Program. 5+1 , Holocost, …
      I know that most of bad thing have come together to make this background….(but I’m inviting you to search and know more…not just this devil stuff..)
      OK! I think the problem which has discussed here has many deep and tiny factor that you don’t cosider….
      here is MiddleEast, a region with many different cultures,different nations, languages, and different religions in a half or 1/3 of U.S ..very close to each other……….but with very long history of ancient civilzation,religions, War, and Culture and also Dictatorship…..
      DictatorShip and Religion has a long and deep roots here……
      take a look at West Policy to this oily region of the world……………..U.S blame Iran and some similar countries… for thier Totaliter goverments,… and call Saudi Arabia,Kuwait,Egypt,Jordan,even Turkey… as their great friends………..but all of them are same……….all of them have a totaliter goverment ………… almost all of Middle Eastern Countries has govern by a Dictator or sth similar……….
      I don’t want to write about the past……….and political issues….
      I hate Dictator Ship…………..I love Democracy and Humanity……….
      but it’s not fair…………….. you said sth…true/false….. but not all of the fact……………take a look at your comments………some one say sth like those Exteremists say……Wipe,3rd War,Kill,Destroy,”The Hezbollah are murderers, liars and thieves and they should be treated as such”……..nobody talk about……education……democracy……and communication…..
      I hope for a day that both sides…….Iran,US…….Israil,Palestinians……….Turks,Kurds,,,,,,,,Sunnies,Shias….
      Minorities/Majorities…..to talk.

      hope for listening ……… hope for more conversation between sides………hope for more talk and less violence…..
      currently neither Israel nor Palestain…neither Iran nor U.S….neither X nor Y…..listen to each other both side just say their comments and both side let extremist and disformed minds take the final decision.
      you must consider that most of Terrorist Ideas actually have Political root rather religious issues………I’m a secular….but most of their theoretical ideas hasn’t related to Islam,… the Islam and similar things is just an excuse to implement their ideas and gathering some ignorant and stupid people…..take a look at them….Taliban…….Ben-Laden……..I don’t know..you know better…….Terrorists…………….what you see? I say Un-Educated and Un-Civilized persons…….They’re not living in this age………..they belong to different time……..many years ago………why?

      but the future is bright and hopeful…………..we need education and it’s improving faster and faster………….we need better networking infrastructure, going forward even improving by years………better networking to communicate with other part of the world…to come to closer……………….I am hopefull because of IT and new technologies and their capability to give the chance to people to talk………to listen to themselves………..to experience humanity and love………people in this age has better and more chance to understand that “The Earth” is their actual country/home and “The Universe” is their land and …..
      this and next generations has more power to govern the governments to come closer….

      sorry for long comment

    • #2915241

      Hear, hear

      by pip ·

      In reply to A Sad Day for Israel

      well said -its about time we saw genocide for what it is, and stopped giving the likes of Arafat Nobel PEACE prizes.

      • #2915231

        One of the many examples

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to Hear, hear

        of why that award is meaningless.

        Heck, if you make an intentionally inaccurate slide show, you might get one too! B-)

        And yes, the stated goal to wipe out Israel is genocide. Don’t know why that should bother anyone, right?

      • #2915197

        Let me understand

        by jamesrl ·

        In reply to Hear, hear

        You have no issue with Saddam who was once a hero of the US for fighting Iran becoming a goat for invading Kuwait, or any problem with George Wallace, a racist who repented, but Arafat can never be forgiven?

        Arafat won the prize for his work with Yitsak Rabin and Shimon Peres in negotiating a peace agreement. He accepted the existence of Israel in 1988. He worked to try and establish peace since then.

        I’m not claiming he was a saint, but compared to Hamas, he was at least interested and engaged in peaceful dialogue.

        James

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