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Bush: U.S. on Verge of Energy Breakthrough

By maxwell edison ·
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http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060220/D8FT3GH02.html

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You don't have to prove you density too

by Oz_Media In reply to Typical Oz nonsense and g ...

Max, you were simply wandering through cyberspace and decided to randomly post an article that, lo and behold, just happened to feature GWB taking a decade late stand on alternative fuel sources. What a sheer FLUKE that it happened to support Bush as a caring, energy and fuel concious person whos best interests are not in oil acquisition.

You have tried fruitlessly to defend all the negative comments here over the last 4+ years about his complete ignorance toward global warming, pollution, more efficient vehicles and factories etc. Now you CLAIM that posting this article was without intent or meaning of any sort? How f'in stupid do you really think people are? I'M not American!

But if you say you just posted it as an article of interest, with no possible intent of claiming that GWB is not the petroleum junkie he really is, then I must at least humour you I suppose and accept your innocence.

Now run alon gand play in theland of unicorns and idiots that would catually believe you posted a GWB story without intent. You claim i am a lot of things, with little or no fact to support such slanderous claims, but one thing I am not is a blatant liar....Max. I think anyone reading the post would know that you posted with the intent of flag waving for Bush, otherwise you would have posted a similar article when Canada won the JCI bid. This isn't news anymore, it's political propaganda; that you bought hook, line and sinker.

YOu quote a title such as BUSH: US on verge of Energy Breakthrough! (about a technology designed and tested years before BUSH actually took office)and you expect people to believe your intent was not to show how great BUSH and US Advances are? Give your head a shake! (Not too hard though, I don' think it's screwed on too tight these days)Gettin' slower these days, Max? When maturity gets tired, age takes over.

P.S. The only "nonsense" is the article itself.

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There is light at the end of the tunnel..

by Darthstard In reply to You don't have to prove y ...

Oh dear it's me again, I've since added some more enthusiastic hoot nanny, check my discussion history, (thats for both you and Maxwell to digest), "re: petro dollar.." thread that oz_media started, before you comment (should you be inclined) on this throw in. Then I can soak up the flak with full effect. Clearly I do enjoy having a poke at Bush, shame Clinton blew his chances, oops getting distracting ideas, but all my previous ranting aside, and whatever agenda GWB has, I have to say I have found this topic of most interest of late, (thanks Max).

While I am highly suspicious of GWB's gameplan overall, and his history, it would be fitting if he could, and heaven knows he is in a good position to, get the ball rolling on hydrogen fuel tech, alternative energies and a serious tax for users of cars with enough power to run several cars under the hood, he may not be this most scientificly minded, but he has some the best science resources at his disposal. It would and could be a turning point in history, so long as the next President takes on and continues with the baton. Oz, it's never too late, yeah I feel this should all of got going a long time ago too. Over here in blighty, many of us are dismayed with Blair, as he has almost written off, reusable energies as uneconomical, and has a vision of more nuclear power. Great, oh it's cheaper short term, but longterm !! Why is it so hard to see, that we have an abundance of solar/light energy, wind/wave/tidal power, thermal vent possibilities, and of course hydrogen options, etc. Surely between all of us so called western 1st world countries, if we combined more effort and research, pooled resources, and pushed hard enough, there could be utterly brilliant consequences for the whole planet.

I fear we our all just too hung up on and or trapped within the capatilist, corporate money machine, and it will take some heavy force to break the deadlock. But I live in hope, even with the USA seemingly out of control, there are plenty of gifted souls within the states to get these issues on the road, I am actually the eternal optimist, and I feel it's just a matter of time. GWB is as far removed from hero crusader as could be possible, but even a herion junkie can U-turn and surprise the most cynical critics amongst us.

We all need to stop friggin bickering, and get our excrement together, looking back over world history during my 39 years of exsistance on this planet is like watching dark comedy/horror movie running in slow motion, and still is, now if we can just get the play button working...

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Hydrogen energy and stuff...

by neilb@uk In reply to There is light at the end ...

isn't a renewable source. It's merely a way of storing energy for use in portable devices and providing heating that produces less greenhouse gases and carbon particulates that petrol, diesel and heating oil - i.e. none. Unfortunately, though, it takes more energy to produce hydrogen than you get from burning it. You also can't pipe hydrogen through the natural gas grid because it diffuses out through the pipes!

I wonder why TB has written off reusable. Let's see - about the only reliable source of renewable energy on our little island is tidal. We don't have the space or sunshine for solar. We don't have the space for wind and the strongest wind - like the strongest waves (another option) are in the place with the lowest energy needs. I suppose we could dam up every valley in Wales and cover the high bits with windfarms (who'd miss it?) and get a bit of energy that way. Thermal vents? Oh, you mean the famous Stoke-on-Trent geysirs or the famous hot mud-pools of Rugby?

So, we stick a barrage across the Severn and get 5% of the current electricity needs. Where do we put the other thirty? We'll run out of rivers. We could use tidal lagoons but we'd need dozens and they're miles across.

Or we could use nuclear.

Or we could just sit and shiver.

The glass is half empty...

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Alternate energy possibilities

by Darthstard In reply to Hydrogen energy and stuff ...

Nielb, I see where you are coming from, and I agree. Some of the best ideas I've seen were within the pages of the 'New Scientist', I was thinking more about the hydrogen combustion engine, burns hydrogen within purified water molocules, rather cleaner exhausts!, One average house, comletely roofed with solar panels, feeds excess power back into the grid, and it pays for itself within something like 10 years or so, imagine if that possibility alone was installed world wide, and we had a worldwide power grid system. Tidal, I except we have limited options without damaging UK geography, but again, elsewhere on a global scale, every little helps. As for wind and wave power, way out to sea, beyond the horizons, large wave genorators, and wind turbine rigs could be constructed. I was'nt suggesting decimating our little Island's fine scenery, I was thinking more in terms of oceanic weather hotspots. These are all just possibilities, I know they would be hellishly costly to implement, but in the long run can you put a price on clean abundant energy sources and phasing out fossil fuels !? The thermal venting ideas are probably least feesible, but the best concept I remember seeing was again at sea, water goes down one shaft, turns to steam in the mantle and this returns up another shaft to power turbines. And that may have bad effects on tectonic/mantle physics, worse, home made volcanoes & earthquakes, but there may be something there!

No doubt there are more possibilities and technologies around the corner, we just need the powers that be to get out of the Victorian way of thinking and get with the program.

The glass is half full, try tasting optimism, it's far sweeter than pessimism, as a bonus it has some fine restorative qualities...

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Tidal

by Oz_Media In reply to Hydrogen energy and stuff ...

I was watching a show a while back about a scientist working just off the southeast coast of England who has found a way to use tidal turbines to generate enough electricity to power a small town like Shanklin from less than 20 turbines. The turbines are small, like the US windfarms but even smaller blades). The blades are set to that fish can pass without issue, sea traffic is not effected etc. Using these around the island and in specific portions of the channel, would provide a constant energy source to power many small towns.

Understanding that it takes more than a few watermills to power everything in Enland, do we need to find a SINGLE source for all our needs or can we work with what we have, reduce the current waste and sill explore new and more efficient energy sources at the same time?

We KNOW that our current source is not going to work forever, why must we wait for one big end-all solution before we wake up and get with the program? I think this is a flaw most countries have, especially the US where it appears that such discovery is deemed useless unless it can power the entire nation overnight.

Look at countries like Sweden, Norway and Denmark, where they have employed such paractices for decades, sure they still use fossil fuels, but only a small amount in comparisson to those who want it all...today.

I am a strong believer in David Suzuki's plans for a better environment, if we all reduce just a little of our wasteful energy, we are buying time. And time is something we all need.

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I'm totally in favour of tidal

by neilb@uk In reply to Tidal

Thanks to the EU's collection of rapacious fishermen, the English channel is a scraped maritime desert. I would happily fill it - our half, at least - with tidal turbines and tidal lagoons and stop their trawling dead. I would not have built a bridge across the Severn, I would have built a barrage years ago and bugger the environmentalists.

The speed of the channel tidal flow is up to 4 knots across a 19 mile wide Channel. That should be good for something.

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Inability to think abstractly

by Absolutely In reply to Tidal

Forget about pollution and terrorists, and the known fact that known funding for terrorism is strongly correlated to the nations whose sand sits atop petroleum. Consider that tides and sunlight will exist for as long as life is possible on Earth, but that any fuel that must be burned must also be exhausted, someday. How can any rational person continue to use combustion when any non-combustible alternative exists?

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Rational?

by neilb@uk In reply to Tidal

In your search for rational beings, have you found any? There aren't any over here.

Putting a tidal generator barrier across one of our major estuaries, the Severn, was suggested years ago. The place was perfect, a tidal rise and fall of up to ten metres and a requirement for a bridge to offset some of the cost. It would have generated 6%-7% of our electrical needs. Objections by environmentalist killed the project - it would affect too many wading birds - and they built the bridge instead.

The Thames has a peak tidal difference of 7 metres twice daily outside of my office window in the centre of London. A bidirectional low-tech turbine under all but the centre arch of every bridge must surely generate something useful.

Of the twenty sites around the world regarded as suitable for tidal barrage generators, eight are in the UK and, between them, would generate 30% of our current electricity needs with zero fuel costs. Do we have any? Hah! No. We're going to build some more nuclear stuff and put some of them on the Severn!

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Combustion is not the issue

by Oz_Media In reply to Tidal

I think I know what you were aiming at but just to be clear, combustion is not the enemy. All the alternative fuels also use combustion (with respect to CNG, LPG etc.).

The key is to remove the fosil fuels we choose to burn. Gasoline is a clever fuel, for a not so efficient fuel source; it does create the necessary amount of energy, when compressed and burned, that is needed to power an automobile.

The hard part has always been finding a power source as efficient as gasoline propane(LPG) has been used but it requires large tanks due to it's low pressure of storage. It also doesn't burn very hot when compared to its alternatives.

Compressed Natural Gas (CNG)provides enough energy, but requires storage in excess of 300lbs per square inch, creating a small yet quite powerful 'bomb under the hood.

Battery power has been desired but not used for decades, cost, storage size to create enough energy and practicality have lept it from becoming mainstream.

Newer hydrogen cells require less space and create plenty of energy but again cost and size are not quite practical enough. Yet companies such as Ballard and JCI are the ones paving the road of the future. GWB's acceptance/cooperation, or at least lip service, to support r&d is an important step yet we need to actually see the money to gain benefit, that is yet to be seen/proven.

For neil, the underwater turbines are placed JUST offshore, where no fishing would be affected, sorry mate, I know you have great dreams of a better kingdom but believe me...even though Europe is ugly as sin, it's still a great place to be.

You have the culture and the experience/history, we have the recreation and the good looking country. But North America is just plastic and pretend, it's like living in an amusement park. Very little is real; behind the scenes it's all just a pretty facade with a scary bunch of a-holes in charge.

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I know how you feel, Oz

by Absolutely In reply to Tidal

But I think you're just a little bit wrong about North America.

"You have the culture and the experience/history, we have the recreation and the good looking country. But North America is just plastic and pretend, it's like living in an amusement park. Very little is real; behind the scenes it's all just a pretty facade with a scary bunch of a-holes in charge."

After 500 years and a revolution, North America still has the feel of a colony, or what I think a colony would feel like to a 17th century European visitor. If our species does not make itself extinct, it will be because we have found a way (and implemented it) to have stability, perhaps even a sort of tradition, at the same time and place as the vitality and dynamism needed to respond effectively to the unexpected.

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