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June 5, 2006 at 10:11 am #2193885
Canada – Well Done
Lockedby maxwell edison · about 17 years, 10 months ago
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June 5, 2006 at 10:31 am #3165020
Thanks
by jamesrl · about 17 years, 10 months ago
In reply to Canada – Well Done
A couple of things to note…
1) Not Al Qaeda, but perhaps inspired by Al Qaeda. Whats is perhaps scary is that these were not all disadvantaged kids – some were quite well off, and not immigrants but second generation.
2) Muslims did dennouce the Imam, and on an occasion where this Imam that Canadian troops in Afghanistan were there to “rape Muslim women” he was stopped from preaching further by Member of Parliament Whalid Khan (who was visiting) and several others. Apprarently the Imam was assualted afterwards by some Muslims.
James-
June 5, 2006 at 6:32 pm #3165488
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June 5, 2006 at 2:27 pm #3164906
With the conversion rates
by mickster269 · about 17 years, 10 months ago
In reply to Canada – Well Done
17 Terrorists in Canada?
That’s like ..um…converts to 11 terrorists (US), right?
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June 5, 2006 at 2:38 pm #3164902
Hey – You’re on to something!
by maxwell edison · about 17 years, 10 months ago
In reply to With the conversion rates
That makes it even MORE impressive! (But it would actually convert to 15.5 in the USA.)
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June 5, 2006 at 6:31 pm #3165489
Terrorists/revolutionaries
by pgm554 · about 17 years, 10 months ago
In reply to Hey – You’re on to something!
Tend to come from well educated upper class families (at least the successful ones).
Castro was the son of a rich plantation owner in Cuba. He was a lawyer.
Che Guevara was a Dentist
The Weather Underground (Weathermen):
Diana Oughton (daughter of Illinois State Senator James Oughton) Graduate of Bryn Mawr College
Theodore “Ted” Gold Parents were professionals and he went to Columbia University.
Soviet Revolution
Vladimir Lenin was a University graduate and clerked for a law firm.
It’s not the poor and the downtrodden that lead a revolt, it is the well educated and well to do.
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June 5, 2006 at 7:06 pm #3165475
But in this case
by jdclyde · about 17 years, 10 months ago
In reply to Terrorists/revolutionaries
it shows that even educated upperclass citizens can suffer from mental illness.
What possible thing is there to be a “revolutionairie” against Canada?
Who have they oppressed?
Are they not multi-cultureal enough? Of are they TOO multi-cultureal?
No, these are not revolutionairies.
Terrorist.
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June 6, 2006 at 6:22 am #3165357
These Terrorists
by jamesrl · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to But in this case
I want to stress, this is not even close to majority Canadian Muslim opinion, many muslims have been speaking out against the Imam who inspired these “kids”.
But my understanding of these kids, from all the interviews and pundits, is that they fell in with a bad Imam, felt isolated in their school, were angry at Canada for being a US ally, angry that Canada was in Afghanistan.
Are they too multi-cultural? No, exactly opposite, while they lived in a multi-cultural society, they isolated themselves from the others.
James
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June 6, 2006 at 6:29 am #3165340
Kids?
by jdclyde · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to These Terrorists
My understanding was that some were all the way up to their 40’s.
I did not mean to imply this was a majority mindset, so I hope you didn’t get that from my post. I hold these people, not all muslims, responsible for their own actions.
so they would kill Canadians because of being a US ally? I am surprised, is there really a backlash from Afghanistan among muslims?
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June 6, 2006 at 6:52 am #3165326
The Imam was 40
by jamesrl · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Kids?
The rest ranged from 16 to 24 I think.
Corrected typo – meant to say 16 to 24, not 6 to 24. Subsuquently today I heard on the radio that 3 were 16 or under….I heard some good interviews from people at the mosque where that Imam preached. Its not like most Christian churches where you have one minister/priest. There you have a committee and they let Imams lead prayers but its not so centralized. Anyway, they admit they should have taken harsher measures and banned the guy when he started talking nonsense, instead of making him apologise.
The specific thing that Imam said at the mosque was that Canadian troops were going to Afghanistan to rape Muslim women. That angered many of the muslims at the mosque, they were angry at the Imam for what they saw were lies and anti-Canadian propaganda. As I mentioned, some of them even shoved him around. A member of Parliament, Wahlid Khan, was visiting the mosque and stood up as soon as the Imam made that statement and shouted him down.
Some muslims think we should be there(including Khan), some don’t. Many that don’t think we should be there would never think it right to do any violence, and have said that these “kids” are not true muslims.
James
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June 6, 2006 at 6:44 pm #3164371
Bad Imams
by av . · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to These Terrorists
I think Muslims in Western societies have the burden of not allowing radical Imams to preach in their Mosques. Its time for them to take a stand against them, a very public stand, so the rest of us know that it isn’t going to be tolerated anymore.
Muslims in the US, Canada, Europe, have got to stand up to the Imams preaching hatred, death and beheadings. Its a mixed message to me from Muslims because they allow Imams like this to exist.
There are always going to be misfits, loners and isolationists in society, but they wouldn’t be as organized and filled with hate if they didn’t have the Imams to inspire them and terrorist groups to carry out the mission.
Devout Muslims need to differentiate themselves from the radical Muslims that commit atrocities. They need to speak out strongly for normalcy, a middle ground, maybe even peace. Right now, they don’t speak out enough to change anything, at least in the US.
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June 6, 2006 at 7:23 pm #3164362
Exactly
by jdclyde · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Bad Imams
And if they condone terrorist behavior, they are part of the problem.
If they don’t want the rest of the world to associate Muslim with terrorist, it is completely up to them to show that they are not.
If you know about a murder plan and say nothing, you are an accessory to the crime.
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June 6, 2006 at 8:03 pm #3164353
Bad religious leaders..
by jaqui · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Bad Imams
Since not only are some Muslim Imams preaching inflamatory stuff, but some of the US based Televangelists are also preaching inflammatory hatred.
[ I’m sure someone can come up with the name of the one best known for his hatred of gays ]Here in Canada, these Christian Priests would be guilty of Human Rights Violations, and if criminally charged would be sentenced inder the “Hate Crimes Act”, which doubles the minimum and maximum sentences they can get.
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June 7, 2006 at 11:10 am #3145273
they isolated themselves from the others
by oz_media · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to These Terrorists
Welcome to Vancouver. I was talkign with someone yesterday abotu racism in Canada vs England or the USA. in England there APPEARS to be more racism because of the slanderous ‘slang’ ued by many, but in England that’s all fair game, every county ridicules the other regardless of race or religion, it’s just dry sarcasm mostly. I am not saygn ENgland doesn’t have racism, but there is a fine line between actual racism and simple crap slinging.
In Canada, I find too that there is racism but not as much as I see elsewhere. We try not to condemn an entire society simply because of the actions of a few radicals. What’s confusing though is when people segragate themselves from society, they only deal with ‘thier own kind’ and even if you stoo dat a store counter they would serve behind you before actually serving you.
This segregation, though self imposed, is also touted as racism.
So James you are 100% bang on when you sau that even though we live in a multiculturally [i]’ACCEPTING'[/i] society, some choose to isolate themselves from others, ultimately creating thier own minority.
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June 7, 2006 at 11:19 am #3145271
Even further
by jamesrl · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to they isolated themselves from the others
Some of the interviews with those who attended the same Mosque – it wasn’t what was said from by the prayer leader for the most part(the one exception noted) it was after hours stuff where this one imam would meet in small groups with the kids and fill their head with garbage.
No wonder the parents can’t believe it – they thought this kids were just more into religion than they were, and mostly what was preached most services was not at all radical and was anti-violence.
People have choices. I have several observant Muslim friends who chose to also participate in more “Canadian” activities. When the company have a Christmas party and have Santa for the kids, they come (Jesus was a prophet to them). When we have an event where alcohol is served, they drink pop, but still have a good time socializing.
James
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June 6, 2006 at 7:30 am #3165307
Some minds are just open…
by onbliss · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to But in this case
…for self-brainwashing. Some of the patterns that can be seen is that they are disillusioned with the current system, they are moved by the plight of their “fellow people” and when see that in a deliberative democracy, where things do tend to move little sooner; in order to speed up things they resort to violence.
This is kind of universal. Inequality and Poverty are two potent factors that sway people’s mind.
Coming to my starting point – self-brainwash – some of the bright and educated get convinced that they are infact working for the common good or the welfare of their fellow beings. The death and destruction that they cause are sometimes seen as a necessity in the short term.
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June 6, 2006 at 7:51 am #3165290
These kids….
by jamesrl · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Some minds are just open…
Some were disadvantaged, some were not. There was a high end BMW in the driveway of one of the families. Most were “middle class”
It seems to be a generational thing – the parents interviewed seem hard working and happy and not radical, the kids restless. The parents thought their kids were just being observant muslims and praying alot. But they weren’t praying so much as getting their heads filled with hate.
James
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June 7, 2006 at 2:14 pm #3145163
BTW Che wasn’t Cuban but an Argentinian and he was a medical doctor. He….
by sleepin’dawg · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Terrorists/revolutionaries
was also one sick SOB who got his jollies bashing in the heads of bound up people with a baseball bat Havana’s sports stadium. He was also more blowhard than effective revolutionary as witnees his multiple failures in Africa and Bolivia. But he sure did photograph well. Hopefully his soul is rotting where ever it went. He was definitely a sicko. After his failed African venture, Castro put a lot of distance between himself and Guevera. Castro, I think recognized him for the sick freak that he was and really wanted no more part of him.
[b]Dawg[/b]
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June 6, 2006 at 12:14 pm #3164470
More News and pictures
by jamesrl · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Canada – Well Done
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060606/ap_on_re_ca/canada_terrorism_arrests
The court where all this is taking place is in Brampton, my home town. AP describes it as a “small city”. Is 400,000 small in the US?
James
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June 6, 2006 at 7:32 pm #3164359
middle size
by jdclyde · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to More News and pictures
A lot of the cities around Michigan are about 40,000 people, Detroit has 900,000 (as of 2004) and Flint has 124,943 (as of 2004).
Maybe it is “small” in contrast to Toronto? 4,558,800.
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June 6, 2006 at 8:06 pm #3164351
naw,
by jaqui · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to middle size
Vancouver is small, and we have a million in the region.
Brampton is hicksville 😉
edited to add:
and yes, I lived in TO for 2 years, and was dating a girl from Brampton, so I’ve been there. 😀
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June 7, 2006 at 6:15 am #3164218
Brampton is booming
by jamesrl · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to naw,
When I first visited Brampton in 1980, it was less than 100,000 people. Now its over 400,000 and since its one of the few suburbs with developable land left, its growing like a weed.
The Brampton/Mississauga border only exists as a line on a map now – there is no “space” between like there used to be. Brampton is part of the Peel Region with Missisauga, and the population of the region is over 1 million. The region provides many “municipal” services like Police, Ambulance, Fire fighting, water and sewage, roads, libraries etc.
Yeah we don’t have the nightlife of the big city and its pretty tough to get around without a car. But the average price of a house is 2/3 of what it is in Toronto – that is the difference between me owning a house and renting an apartment.
James
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June 7, 2006 at 7:18 am #3145381
I know
by jaqui · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Brampton is booming
even when I was there, it was growing rapidly, with only about a mile of empty land between Missisauga and Brampton.
I just love tweaking those east of the Rockies, since they get polluted by the stench coming from Ottawa so much. 😉
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June 7, 2006 at 11:12 am #3145272
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June 7, 2006 at 12:12 pm #3145237
that’s
by jaqui · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Waaaaat???
exactly my point. 😀
I’m not sure I would call them people though, they have to be some degenerate, diseased life form. 😉
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June 7, 2006 at 1:34 pm #3145200
Unfortunately
by oz_media · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Waaaaat???
Alberta is east of the rockies too, the big crack (continental divide) and all that. It’s too bad though, because I really like Alberta and Albertan’s. I also REALLY like the maritimes and the kind people there. But the country’s control comes from that horrid middle bit, where an ocean is something on TV and a mountain…well let’s just remember they named the city of Montreal because of a hill no biger than QE Park here.
They have no idea of our cultures and people, west coast Americans know more about our wants and needs than they do in central Canada.
Oh well, at least they pretty much just leave us to it.
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June 7, 2006 at 2:34 pm #3145157
I know!!! I have the answer!!
by jaqui · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Waaaaat???
we get the Maritimes, Territories and Alberta to join with us in Bc in separating from the braindead corruption of ontario and quebec.
[ then we can charge those twits for all sea traffic through the maritimes waterways. ]:)
and we get all the diamonds and oil in Canada as well as the gold. -
June 7, 2006 at 3:01 pm #3145147
You forgot
by oz_media · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Waaaaat???
The trees, fish (mmmm) and yummy Alantic Rock Lobster!!!
Yeah, I say dat we all se-par-ate, as soon as dis beer is done anyhow.
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June 7, 2006 at 11:01 am #3145279
We are working on it
by oz_media · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Canada – Well Done
While so many consider Canada ultimately a passive nation protected by the US as we send out our own military peace keepers, it is actually not true, as proven in such stories.
When our PM was threatened with a beheading his comments were “I can live with these threats as long as they’re not from my caucus,” he joked.
I guess that even though we seem to take such issues with a grain of salt, what some would consider light heartedly, we do actually capture and try these people for thier proposed actions.
Another example is how Canada’s mission in Afghanistan has grown from one of peace keeping to a very aggressive offense against the terrorists in Afghanistan (yes there are still terrorists in Afghanistan).
Now, I support the war in Aghanistan ( I awlays have) as it was justified retaliation against an attack on our neighbours and allies; even though so many Canadians are appalled that we are actually fighting a war and not just handing out teddy bears and chocolates to children.
Canada isn’t realy the passive, impartial country that o many unfairly deem it to be. Canada was the first to enter both World Wars with the European Allies and have been used by the US as support for many military operations since, due to thier deployment of armoured, high-speed vehicles.
Thanks for your recognition Maxwell, I just wish more people (including Canadians) actually realized we offer a fighting military and advanced police and security forces. We do a lot more than we ever get credit for…..uh oh, now I AM sounding like an American! :p
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June 7, 2006 at 12:16 pm #3145235
that’s the problem
by jaqui · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to We are working on it
if china invaded from the north, all we could do is send a few mounties to hand out parking tickets, maybe a rowboat or two from the coast guard, all the troops and good equipment is out in the world working for the UN.
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June 7, 2006 at 2:12 pm #3145164
Oh Canada
by maxwell edison · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to We are working on it
I was stationed (at NORAD) with several Canadian service men, and I’ve always held them in the highest esteem. Canadians can kick-ass if they put their minds to it.
I’m extremely disappointed, of course, that you guys aren’t with us in the “bigger picture” of this war, but I suppose it’s a matter of perspective. Not to drudge up old arguments, but it’s obvious that “your war” is one as a retaliation for 9-11 (thank you, again, very much), and “our war” is not only one as a retaliation for 9-11, but a “bigger one” as a retaliation for every act of terrorism over the past forty years, AND an attempt to kill it at its heart to help avoid future ones. I actually see this as World War III (or IV if the Cold War was the IIIrd), with most nations claiming neutrality. However, as this particular incident clearly shows, even the neutral countries are potential targets.
I think President Bush’s biggest mistake was to not clearly articulate what this really is, and he should have literally blasted the United Nations for it’s incompetence in addressing the threat of terrorism over the past few decades. I guess it’s easy to arm-chair quarterback the issue, however, when playing geo-politics isn’t a necessary consideration. But at least he’s doing more than any other president has done.
If all the freedom loving nations of the world (including Canada), on 9-12-01, had [i]”declared war on militant Islam, regardless of where it resides”[/i], and then proceeded to take any and all actions necessary to eradicate it, things would be quite different today. Quite frankly, if the truth could ever be known, I’d bet that President Bush was taken by surprise at the lack of world-wide support for anything other than Afghanistan. And once he started his saber-rattling to expand it, he either had to go it alone, so to speak, or appear to back down, yet again, just like all other leaders had done for the past three or four decades. Personally speaking, I’m glad he didn’t back down.
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June 7, 2006 at 4:54 pm #3145127
Walking softly
by oz_media · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Oh Canada
As you know the old saying goes, walk softly and carry a big stick.
As I have said for a few years here now, while most allies did not support the invasion of Iraq, they ARE working together to thwart terrosim globally and not just retaliate in Afghanistan. Germany and Russia had many cooperative meetings to remove terror threats and uncover secret cells and sects around the world.
As you very well know, these people are everywhere and anywhere. They are, for the most part, just like you and I in many ways. They exist in Canada and the USA, but we don’t condemn all muslims…just in case. There are MANY countries that are now focused intently on this issue as a global threat and they have been for some time now. What I regret is that just because there wasn’t unanymous support for the invasion of Iraq, people think everyone else is against them and not interested in addressing this new form of warfare.
While the USA attacks Iraq and kills the insurgents intent on growing thier terror networks, other countries ARE takign action too, just not in such an openly agressive and combative nature. But terrorism has many faces and there is no set way to stop it, by joint effort these things are a possibilty though.
Can I be so bold as to suggest that we MAY be finding a middle ground here where we both actually stand against terrorism and can agree that while both are effectively combatting it, we simply have different means and methods?
unfortunately, you know this still doesn’t changhe my feelings of the tactics used to justify the invasion though, sorry, right conclusion with the wrong onset in my mind. It could have been done SO much better/more amicably I think.
In the end though, both our countries and many others need to end this though, so we can have our soldiers back, safe on our own soil.
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June 7, 2006 at 8:34 pm #3145081
Now Maxwell I have explained the role of the UN before
by mjwx · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Oh Canada
[b]The UN is not an extension of American foreign policy.[/b] It is an organisation meant to stop wars both by aiding in the negotiation of peace and in the prevention of war from starting using force in either case [b]when necessary[/b]. The UN is an [b]international[/b] organisation made to prevent wars (especially world wars) and atrocities (Standing up for human rights). It is not a police force nor does it exist to tell the world how to live (You Americans would have a serious problem if you were told to live like the French (us Aussies would have the same problem so no one can blame you)). It?s all spelled out very clearly in the preamble of the UN charter http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/
I have seen the US (others as well like Russia and china but the US mainly) prevent them from acting [b]as the UN were intended to do at it’s inception[/b] by the use of veto’s. Once again[b] The UN does not exist to do the USA’s bidding[/b].Now, if the western world had of unanimously declared war on “militant Islam” the world would be a very different place indeed because we would be embroiled in a [b]great big bloody world war[/b]. I’d be in bloody kasblacicstan with a bloody rifle , you would be working in the war industry making arty shells in some factory, Canada would have conscription and weak nations like France would be talking about capitulation because we would not only be at war with “militant Islam” but with [b]all of Islam[/b] the moderates included. The only one that would be enjoying this is GWB because he would have his desired WWIII.
I have posted how I think the war should have been fought before. Now I will get on to Iraq, off the bat I will say that Sadd (Saddam Hussein) was a bad man, an evil man, a corrupt dictator and many other things but he was not a bloody hard-line Islamic terrorist. [b]Sadd should never have been removed. You (USA) should never have even began to think about rattling sabres.[/b] But then again where is GWB’s head (If somebody can locate it let me know). His (Sadd) removal caused more problems than it had solved and created another Vietnam like situation. As any Techie should know you don?t do something that you know will create more problems later. You know max, 6000 people have died in Iraq this year.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19392593-1702,00.html?from=rss
For the most part they were Iraqi civilians [b]but a life is a life is a life[/b] and the average Iraqi has done nothing to you or I so why should they be the ones to suffer.Now that you?ve figured out that Iran would have been a better target to go after you find yourself in the situation of not being able to afford another war on your own and no-one wants to help because you seriously buggered up Iraq. In fact if GWB had not of invaded Iraq you would have an entire Iraqi army ready for the Iranian campaign as you should know Sadd was no friend of the Islamic Republic. That?s kind of how we know Sadd was such a bad man (with the gassings and the bombings and the torture).
The US screwed up and now you (max, not the US) want to blame the rest of the world.
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June 8, 2006 at 12:14 pm #3144722
You at least see the problem though
by oz_media · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to Now Maxwell I have explained the role of the UN before
While the UN is no saint, just as guilty of abusing the OFF program as the US and many other countries, they are NOT simply acting on America’s behalf.
THIS is an issue, anyone who doesn’t bend over foe the US and support their every idea, no matter how logically or ethically absurd, is an enemy of the USA.
Once you understand their self servient mindset, how they help th erest of the world and teh rest of the world just spits in their faces, then you will easily accept the reasons they don’t like the UN. America has never done any wrong, EVER. Every other country on Earth has problems that America should be fixing, and if they don’t like it, they are the enemy.
Why shouldn’t we all be a collective, Borg? WHy should ANYONE have freedom of individual opinion or independence? Americans all assimilate, why not other countries? It just doesn’t compute.
Americans are a collective, a collective with somewhat split opinion but a collective all the same. Not much different than a giant commune. Half drinks the cherry cool aid, the other drinks the orange.
Either way, they are both right, should set global standards as thier short history proves thier incapacity to do so, and al must follow or be considered an AntiAmerican enemy. It seems they simply can’t accept that not everyone thinks the same way or feels the way they do.
Difference, individuality and personal opinion that goes against the grain is simply unacceptable.
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June 8, 2006 at 8:25 pm #3144534
Conform or be outcast
by mjwx · about 17 years, 9 months ago
In reply to You at least see the problem though
It’s ingrained in them in schools. Everyone has to be the football quarterback or the prom queen and there is no room for any other type of person. Individuality maters not to them. The problem is they support this kind of society whole-heartedly and then wonder why kids go postal when society doesn?t accept those (Columbine). I could rant on but I won?t.
In their defence, a lot of Americans are trying to break the stereotype, a problem I have called A.S.S (American Stereotype Syndrome). All of the yanks I have met in the flesh turned out to be great people, not like the society we foreigners (to Americans) know and hate (or at least strongly dislike). I suppose you being a Canadian, would be exposed to the most xenophobic and arrogant Americans, all the ones I meet wanted to come here (AU).
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