General discussion


Car Bombings

By Oz_Media ·
EVRY day we see more and more car bombings killing more and more people in Iraq. Certainly there are also people being shot by indurgent, raodside bombs and even suicide bombers.

One thing I thought last night when seeing how more people had died in a car bombing, WHY are there cars driving around in downtown Iraq?

Why haven't they COMPLETELY blocked off the city center and controlled who enters the city in a car and who doesn't?

Not in the sense of border patrols but just NO CARS IN DOWNTOWN BAGHDAD. People can walk, ride bicycles or roller skates or whatever but NO cars.

They even do this in downtown Vancouver on major event nights, Grey Cup, Stanley Cup , Fireworks etc. It is SHUT DOWN.

I haven't studied a street map of downtown Baghdad yet but I am sure it would at least reduce car bombings by removing a tool. Local deliveries etc. can be authorized at checkpoints right before entering the city, dogs can sniff bombs in a controlled envionment. It also reduces the amount of 'general' traffic that would go unnoticed.

Yss, it will inconvenience Iraqi's, they are also in the middle of a war which I am sure is a BIT of an inconvenience in iteself. I considered the freedom issue, this may be seen as removing freedoms, but they don't HAVE any freedoms YET, they are occupied by another country's military.

So I wonder why they would allow public trafic near police recruiting centers, government buildings etc.

I think they are trying to impose on them as little as possible but this is just allowing too much freedom of movement and leading to more lives lost. Just like protecting the president, they have to realize reedom of movement needs to be controlled.

Shut down traffic in downtown Baghdad, get rid of the cars, get rid of the car bombs.

I understand that there are issues elsewhere and cars in the middle east can't be stopped all together, but in key areas where attacks have ben continuous and constant, shut down th roads, regulate and control exactly who drives where and when, for what reason etc.

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Martial law inevitable

by wordworker In reply to I see your point but mine ...

Actually I agree that they ought to take some extreme measure to at least try to limit the number of car bombings. Locking down some or all streets during some or all hours would be reasonable to me. Let's face it folks, martial law is about the only thing we haven't tried (or have we?) to settle things down. I mean, we made the Statue of Liberty off limits for how many months after 9/11? The people in Baghdad would probably put up with little or no motor traffic if it means fewer of their friends and family members would end up as hamburger on the streets.

Where in the heck are Spider-Man and Superman when we need them!

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is a bit toooooo hard to take it

by voldar In reply to Martial law inevitable

If I am agreeing with Oz for limiting the car traffic in 'potential for bombing' areas...I would not go as far as you said with Martial Law. This must be avoided with all the precautions, because imagine how the anger and hate will rise in the heart of typical non-belligerent Iraq people. Martial law imposed by US will be considered as a 'real domination' and that's what we don?t want to be! Don?t play to much with the Iraqis pride...they have and somehow now they are tolerating the US...but if are signs that they are changing one dictator for another...will be more mess than now

Before asking 'where are Spider-man or Superman' I would ask...'where was my head?'

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Iraqis tolerating the US and heads in the sand

by wordworker In reply to is a bit toooooo hard to ...

I see your point. I suppose imposition of stricter controls (i.e., martial law) would just p-o the Iraqis who are trying to act civilized. I guess my head is in a spin, trying to make sense out of the input coming out of this war. I'm just about half tempted to stick my head in the sand, except I want to be able to see what's coming, if you know what I mean. And there are enough people with their heads in the sand, pretending to ignore what's going on, already.

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Not Enough Boots on the Ground

by rickkellogg In reply to Car Bombings

Iraq's Car Bombings are not unique to Baghdad. These bombings occur throughout the country. It is not reasonable to think that we could just outlaw all forms of transportation in the country. How would commerce take place?

The real problem is we are very short handed in the country. While 130,000 troops sounds like a lot. It is in fact a pretty small force to try and establish order in a country the size of Iraq. Keep in mind that more than 1/2 of this number are support troops not front line troops. These are the guys that feed and supply the front line troops. So now you are down to somewhere around 60,000 actual combat troops. There are 24 hours in a day and they can not possibly work 24/7/365. So at any point in time you might have 30,000 or so active combat troops on duty trying to bring order to a country of 25M.

To put in perspective. New York City has 38,000 Police and my guess is you could put about 50 New Yorks in Iraq with room to spare.

Like it or not there are only 2 ways out of Iraq. One is to continue at current levels while training Iraq forces to take over. All the while putting up with the loss of life and just doing the best we can with what we have. The other would be to pull our resources worldwide and send another 100,000 Combat Troops to Iraq, and perhaps reinstitute the draft.

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Nobody is suggesting marshall law on an etire country

by Oz_Media In reply to Not Enough Boots on the G ...

Yes, car bombings, suicide bombings, even drive by shootings are happening everywhere.

There is a grave issue with young Iraqi men trying to enlist and train as police in Iraq, they are targeted by car bombings etc. Just the other day, (I forget the actual numbers but it was somewhre around 40) young Iraqi's were lining up to enlist in the police (not to fight for freedom, but for a paycheque) a car bomb killed almost the whole lineup. Car bombs are going off near key government buildings ad thrwarting the rise of freedom in Iraq.

Yes they are everywhere and no this isn't a solution to end the war. It WILL however make it easier to protect those who wish to serve.

How can you expect thier OWN police force and military to take over if they can't get off the ground to begin with?

These KEY areas must be SHUT down. It won't stop commerce, there are several cities that don't let general public drive around.
In Vancouver there are TWO main roads in the downtown core with NO public traffic allowed ANYTIME. It doesn't stop commerce in one of the busiest areas of the city in any way.

People drive up with bombs in thier cars because they CAN, removing the ability for them to drive up removes the ability to car bomb these people in KEY areas of the city center, end of story.

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I am suggesting martial law

by wordworker In reply to Nobody is suggesting mars ...

Oz, you misunderstand. I am taking your notion of banning cars in key areas or in downtown Baghdad to another level - lock down the whole freaking country! EXCEPT for traffic needed to get food, water, supplies to the people.

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Won't Work

by rickkellogg In reply to Nobody is suggesting mars ...

If you shut down "Key Area's" where heavy traffic caused prior bombings. You would create 2 new problems. First a major traffic problem as the roads you are talking about closing down are the major highways in Iraq where the commerce takes place. So if the traffic is re routed to secondary roads you would creat gridlock. Also the terrorists would just switch their bombings to the areas that were not closed down where the vehicles are sitting in traffic and even easier targets.

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by Oz_Media In reply to Won't Work

Yes you are right many would need to leave cars at home (seeing as most of them never even HAD cars until 5 cent gas and cheap imports were allowed in it shouldn't be too bad)in order to reduce congestion.

I think fasthands and I are seeing slightly different resolutions though.

First of, fasthands, I know you were agreeing with Marshall law but my response was directed at rickkellog regarding key area lockdown and not the whole city.

YES bombings would move to new, less effective, areas. The main focus of the current car bombings in downtown Iraq is targeted towards people (Iraqi's) signing up to defend Iraq from insurgents. Insurgent probably know very well that if everyone starts getting paid to fight, there wil be less insurgents available to fight on thier side. They kill people who are trying to police and defend Iraq. REMOVING vehicle access from these areas where they are targeted, will remove the issues of car bombs killing them in droves.

I am not suggsting it will end conflict or help in any other way except to permit a sizable force to be built in safety, without the one step forward, two back scenario that they face today.

I know in America, the easiest way to completely erase your population is to remove cars, you simply cannot function without them. This is NOT so or Iraq though. Cars are a treat for many, an insurget in a van driving upto a recruiting center would be a non-issue if they were not allowed to drive near one without authorization. Failure to comply means you will be killed.

I think if the car bombings WERE concentrated on diferent areas it wouldbe easier for troops to nail them, harder for the insurgents to succeed etc. Meanwhile, Iraq could build a formidable police force, train military etc. without constantly losing membes before they have ven started to help.

This is not downtown New York, there are critical supplies needed which can be allowed to proceed even if under military escort if neccessary. Letting them all drive willy nilly all over the place just opens up the playing field and gives them the ability to hit the targets they intend to.

Fasthands, complete shut down, now that would be progress, but they do need some civilian access for store owners and such that cannot walk, or ride a bike for whatever reason(nothing new for most Iraqi's).

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Its not just Baghdad

by rickkellogg In reply to Sorta

This bombing problem is throughout the entire country with the exception of the Northern part where the Kurds have things under control. The cities involved are Baghdad, Karbala, Najaf, Kut, Nasiriyah, Basrah, and Samarra as well as a lot of smaller suburbs if you will like sadar city. If the problem were confined to Baghdad it would be a fairly simple solution.

Just to give you an idea of the manpower requirements to control a urban combat area of say 1 square mile. You would be looking at essentially a Brigade strength unit. Typically there are 2 Brigades in a Division. I believe we have 4 Combat Divisions in Iraq. Hence we are not adequately staffed for this type of operation. At least under the current operational plans that the military operate under. If it were truly a combat zone and we did not care about the loss of life (civilian)or the country's infastructure the troops on the ground could control the country within 48 hours, and that worked well when we invaded last year. Switching to a Police role is not something the Army or Marines are designed for.

The terrorost welcome military escorts as well these bombs they are using are very creative. They can place the bomb in a parked vehicle with a cell phone detonator and sit a half mile away and simply ring the phone to set it off at the most opportune time. Like when a convoy of Military are coming through.

The point is if not cars then they would find another method of terror. The focus needs to be on getting the Iraq people to be self sufficient as quickly as possible and backing off to a support role and ultimately leaving.

As there is no way we are going to increase the manpower on the ground to a level sufficient to begin to cover every population center in Iraq. So the only logical solution is to focus on training the Iraq Army and Police as quickly as possible and moving the troops out of harms way as Iraq Army moves in. Unfortunately, there are areas of the country where an active presence is necessary now to maintain some sembelence of order, and to conduct ongoing raids on terrorists cells. As long as we have troops in urban areas where there terrorists can melt into the population we will continue to suffer these losses.

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Fair enough

by Oz_Media In reply to Its not just Baghdad

Completely missed my point all together, this has NOTHING to do with shutting down all car bombings or terrorist attempts.

The fact that you do not have enough troop support to police downtown Iraq and control what traffic is driving around also echoes the idiocy behind going in alone and getting in over your heads.

There are car bombings everywhere, we agree and are still on the same page.

They cannot build a sizable force of police and military because when they atempt to recruit them, they have been repeatedly killed in large numbers by car bombing near the recruiting centers. I THINK we may still be on the same page here.

Removing the ability for a car to drive up and park near the recruiting center would stop the car bombings at the recruiting center.
Somehow, this is where I seem to lose you all the time. Is it REALLY a headwrecker?

Nothing to do with movment of goods.

Nothing to do with stopping terrorists from attacking roadblocks.

Nothing to do with mass man power, I have seen less than 10 cops do the same thing quite effectivly.

I have worked in security for about a dozen years, planning and orchestrating security detail, layouts, procedures etc. I am no general but I know that I could easily shut down a few blocks from general vehicle traffic with ease and a half dozen men at most.

Why is it that the largest and most expensive army on earth is unable to also do this and prevent police recruits being killed?

You say they (Us soldiers) aren't police, yesterday I said the same and had people telling me that the US has been conducting peace keeping and police missions since WWII, which is it?

I said they SUCK as police, even the soldiers themselves complained about policing Afghanistan, claiming that they weren't taught to do that, they only know how to kill.

So the only viable solution is to let Iraq develop and train it's own police force, which they are attempting to do, except people keep parking near lineups and either shooting or car bombing the new recruits.

saving these new recruits would rduce the need of teh Us to police the area, Iraqi's could secure Iraq, the US could go and fight.

But not until you create a safe way for them to recruit and train forces. Stopping the cars from pulling up and bombing 30 or 40 recruits each time just MAY be an idea.

Are you STILL with me now? Same page?

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