IT Employment·20,065 discussions

CAUGHT

Locked

We have recently pulled up a work experience person for overuse of the web (company policy). From the logs we have identified that TR is the number one on the hit list AND this is the number one page.

Looking into this further: The assigned guest account being used has not been active within the company for some time (we have quite a few). Needless to say the guest account does contain an autologin cookie for TR.

The person has now left.

Situation resolved to what I hope is mutual satisfaction. The rest I will deal with on my own…

Topic

Your logic is flawed

In reply to CAUGHT

It all depends upon several factors such as what the technology is. Lets say that you?re looking for an XSLT person for an opening at your company. There are two candidates, the first has five years of experience, but no paper and the second has three months of experience and a certificate in the technology. According to your reasoning you would hire candidate number 2 based upon a piece of paper and a three-month work history.

Taking your argument to the next step lets add three additional candidates Michael Kay, Steve Muench and Jeni Tennison. Following your logic candidate number 2 would still be your choice over Michael Kay, Steve Muench and Jeni Tennison. This totally disregards the fact that Michael Kay and Steve Muench were involved with designing XSLT and Jeni Tennison has written books on the topic.

Interesting argument, it certainly explains quite a bit about how business works. Rather than get the best and most experienced person for the job, get the person with a piece of paper that read the books written by the best and most experienced people.

as well

In reply to Your logic is flawed

the people that have the paper may not have developed the real work workplace skills needed, like effective communication, working under tight deadlines and problem solving where time is critical.

Often, the person with the most experience actually working with the technology will have far more to offer than merely knowledge of the technology, even if they also have that piece of paper.

When I was working in restaurants cooking, I saw a large number of chefs, complete with papers from schooling, change careers because the actual workplace was not what the school taught, nor did they have the skills to perform even the most basic tasks in a high volume kitchen. In reality, I only met 2 papered chefs that could handle the high volume kitchens, in 20 years working in them. I’ve met chefs that are stunned that I spent that long in that style of establishment, and they all concider me their EQUAL, even though I never studied cooking, I only did it while working.

Question

In reply to as well

Jaqui,
What is it with IT people and food services? Including myself about half of the IT people that I’ve known have worked in restaurants. There seems to be some kind of bizzare relationship.

easy

In reply to Question

ya gotta earn beer money somehow while learning the it stuff 😀

editing to add:

and you have to admit, the high pressure of short order cooking is excellent training for server down times. 😉
when it comes to a crunch like getting the network running after it crashed, the experience of working food industry in a short order restaurant where fast table flips are the goal is great training for meeting tight deadlines.
[ I may have taken that particular skill too far, I have been known to serve 180 meals in 37 minutes when I’m the only cook in the kitchen..and a 3 minute well done peppercorn NY steak ]

Cool

In reply to easy

Your skills are beyond mine, short order in an pancake house.

I did, however, learn one thing, put Alpo in a crepe and people will think that it is fancy. Thinking about it now reminds me of some big name software. Hmmm….

Kind of like aspiring actors

In reply to Question

being waiters. I changed careers because of a medical condition after working my way up to sous chef, and I left cooking school early when I put a knife through my tendon chopping parsley so I guess you could say I was mostly self-taught in cooking too..

Masochism?

In reply to Question

😀

I agree, and add

In reply to as well

that a lot of people with the paper still dont know anything. I have a few certs, but I know full MCSE, MCA, etc. that barely have knowledge to run (let alone work on) Windows systems. It is because cheats become available quickly.
In fact I know someone who got 100% on a cert for Win2k, and then asked me the next day, how to add a computer to the domain, and what would happen if they created a local user account and tried accessing the network.
To me, paper means very little unless there is experience behind it.
but, I am not a hiring mgr either.

Experence is whats important

In reply to I agree, and add

When my company interviews for IT positions, they don’t even care what certs you have. For example, we recently hired a DBA. One person had a degree in IT and the other didn’t, but had written a number of books on the subject. When I interviewed them I never asked or cared about any formal education. I asked them technical questions about DBA tasks and asked them what if questions. I used a prepared list of questions that I have made up for all the interviews so the questions would be fair. The formally trained person couldn’t answer half the questions. I self taught person had everything down cold and he was hired.

Good!

In reply to Experence is whats important

. . . on the other hand, experience isn’t really the most important characteristic for a long-term hire, though it’s more important than a college degree or certification. The most important characteristics, in technical terms, are interest, critical thinking skills, and enthusiasm for learning.

I’d hire someone who has taught himself everything except the job for which I’m hiring over someone that has been taught absolutely everything there is to know about the job for which I’m hiring, but never learned anything on his own at all, generally speaking.

For short-term, temporary jobs, sometimes it makes more sense to hire the guy with more experience, though. The shorter time to get the guy in gear might be worth it on a contract basis.

You can’t completely discount training

In reply to Good!

because there are things that can be learned in a classroom that can’t always be learned on the job. Training (if it’s well-done) covers multiple scenarios that might not come up in everyday life. This type of training teaches you to think critically and use logical diagnostic steps in problem-solving, which as we know are both extremely important for our profession. IMHO, the poorest tech support person, regardless of years of either training or experience, is the one who can’t think clearly and logically. So many times we come across situations where there is no clear-cut solution written down somewhere. You have to work through the possibilities logically to find the one component among many that is causing the problem.

Still Depends greatly

In reply to You can’t completely discount training

on many factors. Yes training is good in many cases, bootcamp training sucks. It depends on the training and training environment. If the training included Lab time, I am sure that a lot more may have been learned (by the eager).
When I was in IT school, there were 7 of us that self taught ourselves and each other. It was almost competitive. We actually went farther than the rest of the class and knew more than the teachers by mid course. At one point the teachers had us run the LAB network and setup our systems as the servers. Then we got inspected for the entire setup.
My main point is that certs are half useless. Its too easy to cheat on most of them. Skills would include training and job exp.

That is not to say that someone with a cert is useless, but I do agree with Beilstwh, the only way to rate a potential employee is to ask the right questions. And dont be scared about a few tricks. I used to ask (when I did interviews) “how do you get to the admin account in Win 98”. You wouldnt believe how many people stumbled on this.

If training includes any sort of problem solving skills

In reply to You can’t completely discount training

If training includes any sort of problem solving skills then they are doing a very poor job of teaching.

For the past 30 years most of what I’ve done has been solving problems that people with stacks of certifications couldn’t solve. A few courses in elementary logic should be a requirement (for any profession).

Paper or Experience

In reply to I agree, and add

I have an AS Degree in Network Administration. My teacher had a degree in Computer Science (Programming) and a Master Degree in business. She took an MCSE course and got a paper certification so she could teach networking at the local college. When we started the Active Directory portion of the course, she went to the college’s network administrator and asked him what Active Directory was. Just because someone is MCSE certified, has a college degree, or any other kind of certificate, it means nothing without the experience. I volunteered every minute of spare time while I was attending college and working a full time job to get the experience of working with a large network. That is where I gained the knowledge that I needed to run a network. I got little or nothing from the classes that I took and I maintained a 4.0 in all my networking classes. Give me a person with real experience anytime.

Another logic flaw

In reply to Your logic is flawed

Spuddy_m compared apples to oranges a couple of ways, one of which Ed pointed out. Both doctors and lawyers must have both education and experience. The paper comes first because it proves they have completed the requisite education, and in the doctors’ case, residency (experience) as well.

The new lawyer may get hired because he has the paper, but he/she is only going to get the easy cases first so they can prove they can handle increasingly complex cases, until they finally end up working on very important cases — assuming they have proven their ability to do so (of course we know there are a number of exceptions to that rule).

As for me, I’ll take the person with experience any day of the week. I happen to be one who began working in the IT field soon after graduating high school and attended college part-time but dropped out within a year. I proved myself “in the trenches” and was promoted several times in a short period of time and was hired into a management position before I turned 22.

I finally went back to college part-time after 10 years working and eventually ended up with a dual AA in Computer Science and Business Management. Did it make a difference? Not at all. The only thing a degree does is show that you stuck with your education and completed it. A certificate, in my opinion, shows only that you were able to memorize enough of the material to pass the tests.

The real test though, is out in the real world solving real problems under difficult circumstances and under real deadlines. Your certificate won’t help you there, but prior experience will.

I don’t have any food service experience unless working at the Oktoberfest several years running when I was a kid counts 😉 I can certainly see where that could be helpful as Jaqi and Ed pointed out.

You can not compare

In reply to CAUGHT

You can not compare training in IT to medical or legal training.

If I want to try something new I can try it on a test pc or test domain; and no one is harmed. Althought medical students work on cadavers and law students test themselves in moot courts, a person trying to self-teach themselves the medical or legal profession would not have these opportunities.

They were just examples…

In reply to You can not compare

What about others – say Construction & Accounting then?

What motivates the IT industry(s) to always say NO when moves are made to turn professional??

Yes there are non-professional construction persona / accountants – but again would you hire them over regulated ones?

trust

In reply to They were just examples…

With the new examples it seems to come down to trust. Do you trust the person with the paper or the person with the experience?

This decision seems to vary depending on the field, but seems to be effected by the person making the decisions knowledge of the subject in question.

I don’t know why IT seems to foster more trust. I do wonder though whether it has anything to do with the individual making the decision not wanting to admit they no nothing (or little) about computers and so trust it with the person that speaks the best ‘geek’

Government regulations is the key

In reply to They were just examples…

accountants have to be certified.
Lawyers have to pass the BAR exam for EACH state they work in. They move to a new state, they HAVE to pass the test all over again for that new state.

These are all professions where there is a lot at stake so the Government has put in regulation to get them more money for oversight of the regulation… oh, I mean to protect us!

I can understand regulation in theory…

In reply to Government regulations is the key

but, if it becomes law that anyone practicing IT needs a bit of paper whats going to happen to the guys with experience?

Are you going to force a 30+ veteran to sit a test of programming in VB? or for that matter what is going to be assessed in such a diverse field? How will the regulators handle bleeding edge fields?

I’ve been thinking about these questions everytime regulation is mentioned and I can’t find an answer. Maybe thats the reason that we don’t any regulation yet?

I don’t see it happening

In reply to I can understand regulation in theory…

If anything, all you would see was more and more employers demanding it as a job requirement for new hires.

Also, a fresh graduate will not expect as much pay as a 30+ year veteran, so this is a way of keeping the pay scale down.

Yeah, let’s go there.

In reply to They were just examples…

Yes, A CPA may or may not be the best at tax. If a person is a CPA they may have what it takes. They also may not. I know of many PAs tho have dropped the CPA from their business. I know Lawyers who will not practice who sell business insurance… $$$

I know Vet’s who are better surgeons than any non-cosmetic guy I know…

In reply to Yeah, let’s go there.

I know a bunch of Surgeons, but I know two Vets who are better as cutters than any FACS member I know…

I also think they are more concerned with their patients than the average Doctor,too.

I would love to have a real professional designation

In reply to They were just examples…

Unfortunately, there is no unifying body in IT, like CPA’s or Civil Engineers, etc… I wouldn’t say that IT folks don’t want to be professional, it is more the nature of the industry, alot of folks are self taught, you can be just as skilled w/ regard to IT if you have the paper (4 yr. or higher degree) or not. The other professions, such as engineering, or lawyers, you cannot test to be one of those w/out the related degree. Certs are not a valid qualifier as a few hours study can set you up to pass some of those tests. Plus, the certs are geard towards a certain subset of the industry, or a certain product, so I suppose we could have tons of different professional credentials, but that would fragment IT quite a bit.

I am professional.

In reply to I would love to have a real professional designation

I’m very much a professional.

I have no degree, though I spent a fair bit of time in college for computer science and programming before I dropped schooling to move to another state and actually do work. I have a couple certifications, but my experience tells me they don’t matter one whit in ensuring that I know what I’m doing. I’m a graduate of two trade schools, and I did learn things at both, but autodidactism has taught me a heck of a lot more.

Work experience has taught me a bit about IT work, but not as much as reading and doing on my own have taught me.

You don’t need a piece of paper and letters after your name to make you a professional. The difference between IT professionals and law professionals is, at least in part, that IT professionals not only know the piece of paper and alphabet soup don’t make them “professional”, but aren’t afraid to admit that it’s all pretty useless.

Don’t push IT toward centralized regulation. All you’ll do is make it even more difficult for discerning employers to figure out who’s worth hiring. Professional regulation like that of CPAs and lawyers is like a union for rich people, as opposed to unions for poor people as in many blue-collar professions. It’s just a way to limit who gets to be a member of an exclusive club, to fatten the people in charge, and to get more money for less value provided from employers.

Now Apotheon you’ve offended me. X-(

In reply to I am professional.

But if you had of said the [b]Difference between True Professionals and Want to be Professionals[/b] is that they realise that all those letters after their name only impress those who are not worth impressing in the first place. So most of use don’t even bother remembering what we are supposed to actually use. :p

Personally I only use those silly things when I’m doing Legal Work or work that might lead to Court Action. Even when I was working at IBM one of the Make Believe Jumped Up Smart Arses insisted that I put some letters after my name for the business cards that they where going to print up for me to throw away so I inserted [b]RL[/b] which got him going and he just had to ask me what they meant. I told him [b]Isn’t it obvious? Raving Lunatic because I’m working here.[/b] :^0

I never heard another word mentioned about the Alphabet Soup that would take up several lines of paper after that. Of course I always used them when required for the Legal Work or things like that but never on anything else. Mainly because I didn’t want a whole lot of [b]Blind Freddie’s[/b] following me around asking stupid questions making out that they where impressed because of all those stupid letters. ?:|

Personally I don’t know anyone else who uses them either unless their immediate job requires it for strictly Legal Reasons. :p

Col ]:)

The last letters I used

In reply to Now Apotheon you’ve offended me. X-(

after my name where. Mon Key

Was a wasted joke as no one noticed. 🙁

Finally! Somoene agrees with me!

In reply to I am professional.

>>Professional regulation like that of CPAs and lawyers is like a union for rich people, as opposed to unions for poor people as in many blue-collar professions. It’s just a way to limit who gets to be a member of an exclusive club, to fatten the people in charge, and to get more money for less value provided from employers.<< I've been saying this for years! Most "professional" certifications are aimed more to keeping people OUT, then letting people IN! The majority of them (expecially in medicine, law, etc) seem to be more of keeping an exclusive club, than promoting better quality for end customers.

Another point about this

In reply to I am professional.

I’ll add one other interesting tidbit. In our profession when we interview many companies have policies that do not allow candidates to be tested. So and interviewee who speaks well and says the right things – regardless of background – will probably get the job.

Where I am working now, I was told they cannot in anyway during interviews test the candidates knowledge of the subject. So for programmers who claim to know T-SQL or Oracle, they can’t ask them questions like how would you write a SELECT statement to bring back unique rows. They can’t ask anything like that.

It is just my opinion, but I think our profession is one that requires the ability to test people’s know how versus just having the papers.

Another interesting tidbit. There are people with say 10+ years experience and have the “papers”, but can’t get jobs because employers are starting to take the “young uns” from the colleges who learned the latest technology and can talk the latest talk. Personally, I want people who can do the work and explain it to those who need to know at different levels of the business.

But that is all just my view.

~evil grin~

In reply to Another point about this

Then, to get around the no test limitation of the company policy, hand them a box of parts, a cd and printout, they get to assemble the system, compile from sources an os to have a worksation. ]:)

if they can’t do that, with every stap of the build process in the prinout, then obviously they are incapable of doing the job.

cd = lfs live cd, a sane build environment
printout = the 200+ pages of the lfs book.
box with all components, so they have the manuals to assemble the hardware in there.

if they fail, send them packing, you do have 90 days to let them go if they don’t fit right. ]:)

if they suceede, then they get to remove everything, disassemble the system, and get assigned a standard workstation. 😀

Jaqui – buddy

In reply to ~evil grin~

I like that idea. Especially using the probation period. Of course in this cost cutting world, probably wouldn’t get the req reopened if they didn’t work out.

Although, mad hatter that I can be when I want, I have done the conditional hire with must pass training class. Works great. The first week they are in “my training” and they take a test at the end. IF they pass, they get their full salary and job, if not, all I am out is 1 week and a reduced pay for that week.

Believe it or not, this works and does generally meet the standards. Personally though, I want candidates to prove to me they can do the job. I don’t care how many books they have with them or I supply, show me that you can use your brain and figure out solutions to real world situations. That is what I want from an interview.

that’s why lfs…

In reply to ~evil grin~

it’s really meant for a learning tool, not a full use distro, and nobody gets through the process without hitting a roadblock.

building the os from scratch like that is a 2 day process minimum, just to get basic cli and core utilities.

I personally make it harder yet, I use the utf-8 version, so that every app is built for unicode / utf-8 character set.
[ only real end problem, use that charset and hit w3c.org, all chinese unless you make it display english ]
getting a bootable cli system is an exercise in problem solving as well as in following instructions.

the printout isn’t really required, the lfs book is on the cd. ]:)

but some winders only vunderkid will never figure out how to open it to follow it.

~lmao~

Pick a title

In reply to I would love to have a real professional designation

Recently a friend was lamenting the fact that he couldn?t call himself a senior web developer because he doesn?t know C#. I tried to explain that there are plenty of senior web developers that don?t know C#, they know PHP or VB or Java or JavaScript. Titles don?t depend on the specifics; rather they depend on the subject matter knowledge. The only thing that was stopping him from giving himself a title was himself.

There really are no standards for titles or even a cheat sheet with equivalencies. Life would be a lot easier if everyone knew that an STA at Bell labs was equal to a Systems Analyst II at Fidelity.

Of all the titles that I?ve had over the years I am most proud of one that a former manager gave me a few years ago, ?Mad Scientist?. It has a nice ring to it and tends to stop people in their tracks.

not bad,

In reply to Pick a title

the best one I got was the can do guy. I got everything done that was asked, even when everyone else said it couldn’t be done. 🙂

not counting, of course, the time I gave myself the title of GOD, which actually went over very well in that workplace. ]:)

Underlings

In reply to not bad,

You get to have worshipers and I get to have minions.

How about . . . . . . . . .

In reply to Pick a title

How about the title of “Man of many hats” in the IT business?

paper over experience

In reply to They were just examples…

That would mean that after 17 years in the industry I should be overlooked when a new guy fresh from college applies for the same job as I am? I taught myself how to build desktop computers from the ground up in 1985. I worked my way into the industry by applying to a compnay that did not even know what desktops were. I knew where they were heading and worked my way to a situation where I could show them what I had. When it came time to put in desktops I was there and I moved into the position i knew was coming.

I recieved my CNE certification and never needed it.
I am self taught and proud of what I have done with what i know.

It’s an ART

In reply to They were just examples…

Medical, the Law, construction are all professions that require you to learn and use a LOT of book learning and every task is defined and predictable (I will give some slack to surgeons).

Programming is an ART. It requires imagination and analytical thinking. Anyone can learn a computer language but they will never be any good if they don’t have the mindset and abilities to be a programmer. Saying that a programmer has to be professionally licensed is like saying that Mozart should be licensed to write music.

think you’re reading too much into “Professional”

In reply to They were just examples…

In the blissful arrogance of baccalaureate-hood, you’re ignoring what it takes to get into IT. Do you think they just pick people off the street and make them programmers, or SysAdmins ? Does the absence of a piece of paper from a university make the effort you’ve made to learn your job any less worth while ? Most people in the real world would think not…

Who is saying no?

In reply to They were just examples…

The trouble is you tried to compare two distinctively different arenas and it never works.

To say Doctors are regulated and professional is all well and good but look back at the history of them – it wasn’t always so.

As for IT, who determines what is right for a professional level entry? The thing about entry level for doctors and lawyers is that they have set requirements – you can’t do that with IT. It moves to fast to allow it any meaning.

I have been self-taught in IT for 22 years now and you couldn’t get most of my knowledge in a set requirement – and I’ve been a memebr of the BSC scheme that is trying to professionalise the industry. I applaud their efforts but they still miss the mark.

I could waffle on – I won’t 🙂

You don’t know about Construction & Accounting

In reply to They were just examples…

Construction & Accounting have been around since the Pyramid. How long has IT been in this world ?

During the pyramid era, people have already define some standard way of constructing building. IT is just beginning. In fact IT is one of the most dynamic field compared to engineering and accountancy.

Actually Medical field would be the best to deregulate.

In reply to You can not compare

AMA certification be hung.

If you can pass the boards, and demonstrate your competence thaen you cna practice. If you have the paper and pass the boards, then flunk the practicle, then you may not practice.

That would force many incompetents out of the medical field. I believe that Insusrance would really be the driving force. If a practicioner is insured then they would get the business. If they are a hack, then they’d not be insurable. The really crappy thing is the AMA would manipulate the insurance industry…

They have used FUD to damage almost all the reputation of ODs until they decided ODs were OK. Now ODs and MDs are targeting Chiropractors together to get more healthcare $$$.

professional occupation. yes and no..

In reply to CAUGHT

From a personal level I would LOVE IT to have entry requirements as I’ve nearly got the ‘piece of paper’.

However I’ve also nearly finished a year’s placement in the real world. And apart from coming out of university to find that I was taught next to nothing. I have learnt more from the ‘self-taught’ people with experience that 4 years studying has taught me.

I also know some ‘peers’ that are going to complete university with a degree in computing without any technical skills whatsoever because they’re good academics and can work the system.

If it was my server, I’m trusting the guy with experience any day of the week.

Mature Industry?

In reply to professional occupation. yes and no..

What if the piece of paper was a prerequisite for entry to the Industry? Experience will come with time. The industry is mature enough to handle that now surely?

yes and no..

In reply to Mature Industry?

yes the industry has been around long enough to be able to start to call it a proffession, and require that those working are professionals.
no, with the instability of technology, requiring the piece of paper from schooling isn’t possible, the schools don’t teach the tech currently used, they are usually 2 to 5 years behind the times.

so we require the schooling, say a 2 year course, that means that at best the new person has 4 years of technology changes to learn, on top of all the resposiblities of the new job. the person teaching themselves will often be learning the bleeding edge technology, so when they start work, they only need to learn the new job resposiblities, they probably have knowledge about newer technology than being used in the company.

agreed…

In reply to yes and no..

I previously stated that university taught has so far taught me next to nothing. While this isn’t entirely true the basic premise is, graduates are taught basics and ‘how to learn’.

The advantage of the education is shown when the comparision between possible employees is on more level playing field. Forget the guy with experience, as he gets the job. Two guys (or gals) for a trainee/junior position, no experience between them. Do you hire the candidate with or without that bit of paper?

simple

In reply to agreed…

the paper will get the job, all else being equal.

for the simple reason that the schooling has at least taught the person a foundation in the field.

2 applicants for an entry level position, one with schooling, one with 6 months experience, much harder call, since the 6 months work experience will have given that person as much valuable knowledge as the schooling did the other. [ ideally for the experience ]
This is when you have to look at the person and their “fit” with the team more closely.

its all relative

In reply to simple

Again I agree with you. I think at the end of the day its all down to the position, and ‘relavent’ quals and experience. But when it takes time to get the experience (about one year for every year of experience you want) getting the paper can be a useful boost to your CV

In that specific scenario…

In reply to agreed…

I am looking for a number of things in a prospective team member. Do both candidates have the same personality? Interests? Willingness to learn? Do they both present equally professionally?

Personality fit for a team is pretty critical. A bad fit can throw a team off and you don’t want that on a sensitive or highly visible project. Or indeed any project.

A person’s interests tells me how they will spend their free time. I am more interested in someone with a hobby than somone whose hobby is being a couch potato.

Willingness to learn is another key- especially in an entry level candidate. I want to know that the individual will seek mentorship in addition to what I will insure is provided.

And while I know that Business Professional isn’t the standard, I want to see a candidate that can rise to that standard. And I have indeed worked in environments that required Business Professional as a dress standard.

In short (I know, too late) the paper may or may not be a consideration.

It depends if he can beat me at Chess.

In reply to agreed…

That happened once… Lew Jenkins…

college vs. . . .

In reply to agreed…

A college education taught me almost nothing. It certainly didn’t teach me to learn. One of the big reasons I dropped my pursuit of a computer science degree is, simply, that I could learn the equivalent of a semester’s worth of schooling in a week on my own. Going to school for computer-related skills increased my educational workload by something like two hundred percent, and multiplied the time it took to learn something by about two [b]thousand[/b] percent. I learned as much PHP in a week as Javascript in an entire three-credit class — and, for a bonus, I was learning CSS at the same time I was learning PHP, but learning Javascript in a classroom setting sucked the life and motivation out of me so that I wasn’t learning anything not required for school.

People are good (or bad) learners regardless of whether they’ve ever seen the inside of a college classroom (or lecture hall, as appropriate). Sorting for people who have been to college does nothing to indicate any improved ability to learn, from what I’ve seen, since people who are good at learning graduate with college degrees about as often as people who are bad at learning. On the other hand, sorting for enthusiastic autodidacts that have never been to college but have interesting skillsets pretty much guarantees you’ll get people who learn well and quickly. After all, you have to be enthusiastic about learning to go out and pursue knowledge on your own, while you only have to want to be well-paid to sit passively in class taking notes and memorizing what is necessary to pass midterms.

“[i]Do you hire the candidate with or without that bit of paper?[/i]”
To answer your question: if they both have the same skills, I hire the one that pursued the knowledge, rather than having it handed to him in a classroom. I hire the one that is interested in the subject, rather than thinking that a piece of paper guarantees a paycheck.

You can have a degree or not. I suppose that, all else being equal, an employee having a degree might be a slight advantage for the hiring employer. That assumes that both the papered graduate and the nongraduate are self-taught, regardless of any fancy toilet paper with letters like BS smeared on it, though. If you’re an accomplished autodidact, maybe a degree in addition to that is a bonus. If you’re not an accomplished autodidact, I don’t want to hire you no matter how many caps and gowns you have in your closet.

What about the guy who isn’t a CS guy.

In reply to Mature Industry?

How about a Philosphy major? Like the chairman od the Codasyl Database committee for years, Bill Steiger. How about a guy with an MD, who had one class in CS, but is one of the top OS guys in the world. How about an ED LIN, DO He wouldn’t be qualified from your point of view.

How about a guy who worked at AT&T named Cecil Moye? He was only taught through the U.S. Navy. He also worked with developing BCPL -> the predecessor to C…

Grow up. You want a stacked deck for yourself.
You seem to forget that the pepole who have developed IT weren’t exclusively the degreed professionals. In fact I think that in IT was the one area that ability was the main separator. If you could do the tech side of the job you go to X level. If you were incompetent, pretty, or had the right connections, you’d go into management.

Many of us learned from the Joyce Staatzes and Donald Knuths of the world. Some of us weren’t even in IT when that happened.

Who decides what the paper is?

In reply to Mature Industry?

Also, maybe it would make sense to have IT structured like a union, as in apprentices, journeymen, mid level managers, whatever. Maybe you don’t need a degree to be considered “professional” until the manager level. The Journeymen are the experienced folks who really know their stuff, but don’t have the paper, or maybe not a specific paper. Who knows. Probably a great business opportunity along the lines of the professional orgs for Engineering, Accounting, etc…

I like the idea!

In reply to Who decides what the paper is?

Jtakiwi, I think that would would be a great way to determine an individual’s skill level – except without the actual union part 🙂 I’m not completely against unions (I used to belong to one) but they tend to foster poor work ethic in some people becase you “can’t get fired” without a whole lot of second chances.

open source software saves the day

In reply to Who decides what the paper is?

Thank goodness we don’t actually need the bureaucratic nonsense of unions in IT. You can get the equivalent of apprenticeship via open source development and support: write excellent howtos, provide “technical support” to your peers in the open source community, write code, run mailing lists and integration projects, and so on. It all adds up to a fair bit of parallel with union apprenticeship and mentoring mechanisms. Given time, it will even be as widely accepted as a measure of competence and professionalism — as long as nobody actually screws it all up with central regulation and/or unionization in the meantime.

And exactly what would that Piece Of Paper Cover?

In reply to Mature Industry?

Would a newly graduated Student be of any assistance to a specialised Program writing team? That’s easy the answer is [b]NO![/b]

Could they drop into bottom or even mid level [b]Bank Security Without Supervision?[/b]

If you consider the Paper as a prerequisite what would have to be studied? The IT field is massive and no one can hope to know even half of what is going in in the more specialised areas so what should be on the Curriculum in the first place?

Now that’s a better question.

Col

please

In reply to And exactly what would that Piece Of Paper Cover?

bank security?hahahh.ive worked for a bank and a credit union and none of them even knew the word security.the place i worked at the default root password was the company name who ran the server.security…..right

Well I do have to agree with you there

In reply to please

Using the Words Bank & Security in the same sentence is an Oxymoron but then again I believe it is because those who are in charge have the [b]Paper Training[/b] with no [b]Real World Experience.[/b]

Before I walked out of the last bank here I bought a 6K home Hi FI on the Section Managers Credit Card while sitting on the desk opposite him just to show how lax the system was. He didn’t believe that I’d actually done it until I rang the Credit Card Agency Section of the bank and got an approval number for the sale. 😀

Col ]:)

Which piece of paper?

In reply to Mature Industry?

A+? MCP? CNE? MCSD? B.S. Comp Sci?

The knowledge bases for these certifications overlap in some areas, but only minimally. I know PC techs who can talk rings around the latest technology, but wouldn’t recognize a DO loop if it slapped them in the face. I also know top-notch web designers from whom I confiscate tools to prevent equipment damage.

Other professions can have certifications because the basic knowledge for certification is essential to all specialties in those professions. Additionally, lack of knowledge or incompetence (in medicine or engineering, for example) can cost lives. As much as we would like to believe otherwise, the primary results of IT incompetence are financial and usually minimally so.

?????

In reply to CAUGHT

I’d have to say that the best person for the job is who should be hired.

I’m self taught and can code rings around some people with 4 year degrees. There are also people who are MUCH more advanced than I am..and they may or may not have a degree.

I don’t understand how this equates to a doctor or lawyer..you’re comparing apples and oranges.

????? – Well

In reply to ?????

Both are fruits, round, have pips and grow on trees. Not really that different?

The question is not based on who can do what… but more on the future. Us, the experienced push for a more professional status / regulation that forces newcomers to become certified in some manner.

We educate them and so the cycle is born…

Us?

In reply to ????? – Well

is Us, the experienced, people who have a degree?

If so, it doesn’t take a degree or certification to push for a more professional status. There is no doubt that having the degree is helpful, but it doesn’t guarantee that having a degree will make you better technically or professionally. I’ve been in upper management for 4 years now and it is through my years in IT (self taught, on the job experience, etc) that has allowed me to get to this level.

US is..

In reply to Us?

The current crop of experienced IT persons from what ever background, qualification, cert, walk of life…

what the current crop shows us

In reply to US is..

The “current crop” of IT professionals proves that even a degree is no guarantor of skill or talent, let alone centrally regulated certification. The “current crop” proves that many of the best the IT industry has to offer are not only not degreed, but in some cases are almost pathologically opposed to college degrees.

The “current crop” proves that it would be a monumentally awful idea to impose central regulation of the sort you propose on the IT industry.

Mass Power??

In reply to what the current crop shows us

But looking at the state of some software, systems and national IT projects it is clear that somthing is not right.

How good would it be that have a large enough IT body to say to any large IT company…”NO”…we will not have that.

Currently there is no such method to push for such sweeping changes…

And

In reply to Mass Power??

a degree or certs will fix that?

How?

what??

In reply to Mass Power??

“state of some software” ??

The most robust application i ever had the pleasure to work with was done by a team of 2 “unqualified” people, who had a few years experience. They started out at the bottom and worked thier way up, teaching themselves, learning the trade..because they spent years doing the crap tasks, BUT that made them better developers.

Now the current database application i support was done by a team of 4 people. Each CERTIFIED in thier particular field. The Lead Web Developer has about 100 qualifications (i exagerate of course but you get the idea).
It is the biggest piece of i have ever seen/worked with. This guy doesn’t know what an array is? How does someone who is supposedly a certified Javascript expert not know what an array is?? I asked him to include 2 new ID’s in the array that specified which ID’s were exported, and he came out and said he didn’t know how, did i know? If i did, he would give me remote access to his computer to do it.

Now thankfully, having taught myself web design, javascript, dhtml, visual fox pro, sql server (i’m no expert at it, but i freely admit it)..ect ect..i was able to insert the required info..

Excuse my rant, but in the past, i have always hired experience and willingness to learn over fancy qualifications. I know alot of people who get the paper because they can make more money. Beats working as Mickey D’s as one once said. I know developers who don’t even own their own computer..

But yes, all things equal, like no experience, then a cert goes a long way to at least say they have some fundamentals.

Wrong

In reply to Mass Power??

There are international bodies that exist today that provide us with standards and best practices. ISO and IEEE come screaming to mind.

Horse sh*t software comes out of incompetent developers. As Shell points out, the so-called certified developer couldn’t manage a minor request. I watched a piece of code for an emergency fix go back and forth between the developer and QA for fully three weeks because the developer (a) didn’t bother to read and understand the requirements before starting to code and (b) didn’t bother to unit test. So he kept tossing crap code over the wall. QA finally had to go to the developer’s senior and lay out pre-test conditions and said “until it meets this minimum criteria, I won’t touch it”. Was QA wrong? No way. The idiot pushing bad code was. QA, at least in that corporate world is NOT there to do unit testing.

You talk about large scale projects going wrong. Have you ever done a post-mortem on a large scale failure? I have. In nine of ten cases, the fault lay in constant re-scoping, insufficient requirements, missed deadlines, and the generral inability of the Project/Program Management to maintain appropriate controls. In any large scale effort, it is always appropriate to peer audit to insure against those issues but that process has to be ratified by business and implemented.

Please note here- I do NOT have a degree in Project Management, but I know how to run a successful large scale initiative. I don’t have a PMP either as I have no faith in a cert that is the same for IT as it is for construction.

If a company wants to fund an IT effort, they fund it and implement it. If they can validate that implementation, why shouldn’t they be able to do that? Are you suggesting that some governmental body is more capable than the business of determining what business needs? If the answer to that question is yes, you missed something in America 101. We allow business to make business decisions, they aren’t mandated. What is mandated is a set of controls that provide for the public at large- privacy for instance. And we, as a country, fine those that do not comply.

And what in the world makes you think that the government is capable of large scale IT projects? The very same people that allowed security violations to continue after failing audit? To the point that Personal Non Public information on over 26 million veterans was stolen? The clean-up bill on that little fiasco has the potential to be huge. I don’t want that level of incompetence to be in control of defining standards!

I apologise if I have gone off on a bit of a rant here but it is ridiculous to think that any single body should have the power to define how the Nation uses IT. The gov isn’t the right answer. What will help is hiring the competent- with or without a degree.

Not only that . . . . . . .

In reply to ?????

Not only that a persons life is not hanging in the balance like it might possibly be when it comes to surgery or the difference between a life sentence and or the death penalty. It is a computer for christ sakes, not life or death. The other thing is how many mechanics are schooled (vocational schooled) when they start out, but you still entrust your your baby to them don’t you? And a majority of Mechanics started in their backyard. It kind of reminds of an anecdote were I worked as Die maker helper. We had an old experienced Tool and Die maker that at that time was about 70 years old. We had a problem with a series die (were the part being made is shuffled from tool station to another tool station by hand) and could not get the part it was to produce to be accepted by the auto company. The Die leader (the 70 year old) kept telling the owner (a Mechanical Engineer by degree and designer of the job by the way) that the material we were using was just at the limits of being able to be made in a progressive die configuration. Owner kept insisting that the station idea was the only way to go. This went on for many weeks (about 8 weeks), with the sample parts being rejected by the auto company. Finally in frustration he told the die leader to go ahead and convert to a progressive die. We took the sections we had already, configured them in a progressive die configuration in about 3 weeks time. When the owner took the sample parts to the auto maker, they ok’ed them for us to run off the parts. What this is coming down to the engineer versus years of experience and experience won over degree.

What the original commentary is confusing is the fact that they probably lost out to a person that was not papered (a degree), when he felt he should have gotten the position because he was papered.

Another anecdote; I worked with a fellow that had a D.Ed. (he is a very good friend). He is a fairly decent programmer (by the way self taught) but really does not how to use programming logic well (to say the least to this day can not and does not know how to use “NOT”). Had the audacity to call me a “cowboy” programmer at best. Needles to say I am a combination of self taught, degreed and vocational schooled for Unit Record Equipment (I received a diploma for the voc school before I even got my high school diploma and I was 16 years old at that time). Needles to say in my humble opinion I program better then the “Doctor”! I even program ANSI BASIC in structured format by the liberal use of gosub and returns, pretty much like CoBOL. I can use OS’s, it takes me about a week to learn an unfamiliar OS and in six months I will know it inside and out. There are advantages to being a combination of self taught and schooled.

And also. . .

In reply to Not only that . . . . . . .

You gave my thoughts exactly!

“What the original commentary is confusing is the fact that they probably lost out to a person that was not papered (a degree), when he felt he should have gotten the position because he was papered.”

I have a tachnical degree, but consider it a waste of money because many employers won’t hire IT people unless they have at least an Associate’s degree or several certs. I learn much better on my own, so I’ve gotten a few certs and am studying for more.

The whole college vs. self-trained argument is really a useless point. The experience is everything!!!!! I know highly paid IT Admins with Bachelors degrees in Computer Sciences who can’t install a Server OS.

Sadly, a college degree today means much much less than it did even 10 years ago, because the American education system has been dumbed down to the point that most college graduates, today know and learn less than high school seniors did 25 years ago. Essentially, every class is held back to the level of the dumbest person in the class.

Yet, many employers insist upon a degree and will pass up on a highly skilled person for someone with the papers, even if they can’t do some of the simplest networking tasks.

Many reasons for all the self taught

In reply to CAUGHT

First, when many got into the field there was not the GLUT of training that there is today.

Training is their to try to replace experience, but having a degree or cert does not mean you know anything about the field.

Why are some people obsessed with degrees? Easy. A lot of the people that do the hiring DON’T KNOW TECH, and so have no other way to gage you that they can handle.

Another reason degrees are seen as so important is the upper management spent a lot of time and money on degrees, and to turn around and say degrees are not important is too much of a slap in the face for them.

The best bet? Do both.

Been in IT for over 10 years, and went back to school because work will pay for it. Will have my experience AND a BA in networking.

The BEST fit is to work in the field first. The training is more meaningful if you can relate it to something. Believe me, I have seen a lot of people take the tech classes just because someone told them “you can make a lot of money working with computers”. Ever see someone take a programming class that can’t even work a word processor? Not pretty.

I HAVE gotten a bit out of my degree (two semesters to go and will be done) as it fills in the blanks for what you learned in the field.

too true

In reply to Many reasons for all the self taught

I agree completely. I’ve nearly finished a one year placement as part of a four year degree course. I learnt morein the first 2 weeks on the job than I did in two years at university.

In terms of people taking the courses without much of a clue, I had this beauty:…

induction day at university and I’m in the lad early as I didn’t want to be late. So I fire the machine up, log on and start playing around to see what sort of software I’m going to get to play with over the next year. Fellow student comes and sits next me and opens with

“Hi I’m John Doe, how do I turn it on?”!!!

Unfortunately I’ve yet to tell that story to anyone who believes it, but I promise its true. so sad….

I may be able to top that one…

In reply to too true

in the one course I did take, this one girl was having a hard time understanding the lesson, she is sitting there reading exactly what needed to be punched into Acc Pac GL, word for word, number for number right there, and she couldn’t figure out what to do to get the lesson done.

I pointed to the data, said this needs to be entered into the program. walked away and had another student come and ask me to debug her COBOL program, all 30 thousand lines of it in a printout.
[ that one took me 20 minutes to find the mistake in it, and I had never even looked at Cobol before then, she had missed a semicolon ]

20 minutes for a cobol typo?

In reply to I may be able to top that one…

it tells you right where the problem is in the printout, so NOW being used to it, (thanks to your experience) you would probably see it in two.

What used to be fun, when this one guy would go to get the teacher to show his program worked, we would get in and make a few changes, so when he came back it wouldn’t work.

The teacher thought he was the biggest loser! Maybe this young pup will learn manners next time? 😀 At the end of the class, we told him, but there was nothing he could do and no way to prove anything. Knowing bugged him just as much as not knowing had. ]:)
[i]
(this was back in high school, so I plead young and wild and not lose any sleep over this now! B-) )

yup, 20 minutes

In reply to 20 minutes for a cobol typo?

and that was reading the 30 thousand lines of code one by one until I found it.

Do you REALLY expect me to believe

In reply to too true

that you were there early? :p No wonder people don’t believe you when you make up wild stories like that!

As for the twit, I have seen it myself.

Did a network project through the campus to wire a network for a local school. I was the only one that didn’t have my CCNA in the group, but I was the only one that knew how to do punchdowns and testing, not to mention routing the cables, organizing and labeling, so I became the chief and had to show people how to do something and have them take over.

it was sad.

Making a bootable floppy

In reply to too true

Here I was a BSc(Physics) with experience in customer support installing/supporting SCO UNIX and Novell Netware and some development; then there was this person with Engineering degree in CS with less experience in the IT than me.

He walks to me and asks me to format & create a DOS bootable floppy disk. This was in the mid 90s.

There are some things that only Experience can teach, that no degree or certification can teach.

Oh, I can believe it, look at some of the Dell boxes :p

In reply to too true

A few months a friend showed me their brand new Dell box. It had several things that looked like buttons but the only ones that moved were the ones to take the case off. In the end he showed me how. The damn Dell logo slides up and the button is there with the front USB ports. :8} :p

But I am intrigued, unless you have corrected it in the last few minutes, What were you doing in the LAD early on open day :^0 the LAB would make more sense.

When I was getting my quals I went to a Technical College, one fellow student was there because the company that signed him up on a 5 year contract wanted him to learn HOW to the work not just the THEORY he got in his Batchelor of Science – Computing. When I spoke to him I found out that the recruiting manager hires Uni grads for technical positions and the IT manager finds most don’t have any practical knowledge – all theory. At that time uni is based on what the academics want to teach and their assessment of what you learnt via assignments. Tech college was based on ‘Here is the problem solve it – the faulty hardware is there for you to work with. Can’t beat competency based training. 🙂

I agree

In reply to Oh, I can believe it, look at some of the Dell boxes :p

But Ernest, there is precious little competency based training here in the US. Even trade schools don’t give you what you need- at least in IT.

For your “I don’t believe it” file-

I know a wonam who was going for a Masters in Computer Science. Her first year she ended up in a Java course. Her first assignment she came to me- help me figure this out. We spent two nights on it- presumably that was the work she turned in. Got another assignment- didn’t come to me, went a friend of mine. She had plans for the weekend so basically what she did was drop it on him- do this for me, it’s for work. He called me to see if I knew anything about the requirements which were unclear to him. As the assignment seemed familiar, I pulled out my daybook. Sure enough it was this woman’s homework.

She hasn’t completed her Masters some 5 years later… my friend and I suddenly became unavailable.

Maybe industry should lobby govt for it

In reply to I agree

Here in Aust it came about due to a national conference on training in the mid 1980’s. The Prime Minister of the day (Bob Hawke) called together business, unions and educators. The end result was a recommendation that the whole tertiary education system convert to competency based training, and that some of the secondary eductaion go that way.

Well the technical colleges quickly switched as did some of the state schools (changes depended upon state govt policies). But there was very little take up at the unis as it now meant the professors had to do quantative assessments and not qualatative, thus they lost power over the students and the externally checkable tests would show up any teacher short comings.

This did happen with the tech colleges and the overall quality of teaching went up as the poor ones left to be replaced with quality teachers.

It took many years but some unis are now becoming competency based in their courses. I never could understand the uni objections after all the medical and structural engineering courses are naturals for CBT.

Some of the hold out unis did not even think about switching until after Bob Hawke tied Federal govt funding to unis on their level of CBT support and this lead to slow funding cut backs that took years to eat the fat out of the unis. They are not yet all CBT and many are screaming about having insufficient funding despite not going with the govt directive to switch to CBT some 20 years later.

I know how you feel about ‘friends’ and ‘helping’ with their studied. On my web site I have a work in progress that started as study notes on maths for a ‘friend’ who is doing a course in early childhood teacher. Don’t know why, she hates kids and can’e teach if her life depedned upon it. She wants a degree as it will get her a better job as a govt clerk and this was the easiest one for her. :0

Anyway, she failled maths in high school and now has to relearn all the maths up to year 10 – so I taught her and got her through the three semesters of maths she had to learn. The notes are simple, and I do mean simple, explainations of what certain maths things are and how you do them.

I call this a work in progress as it has gone so far that I intend, some time :p , to expand it and make it available as a more comprehensive maths teaching aid.

arhhh, typo

In reply to Oh, I can believe it, look at some of the Dell boxes :p

oops, slightly worrying type that. I need to go drink beer slap bikers hard on the back, you know? manly stuff…..

yup,

In reply to Many reasons for all the self taught

I haven’t seen anyone saying that the degree is 100% a waste of time, only that experience counts for far more than training “in the field”, where having done it, you can deal with it.

What has been said is that we can’t ignore those who will go out and buy the books, read them, break their own systems and get them working again, take a low paying job doing IT and getting experience while teaching themselves more. These are the people who won’t leave when the day is done, unless the critical job is done. These are the people that will come in a 2 am to get the system back up without bitching, they really want to be doing it, and know that the 2 am call is a part of the job.

I don’t agree with part of that

In reply to yup,

Self taught does not equal good work ethics.

I have known my share of self-taught techs that were clock watchers, after spending half the day playing solitare.

I agree that a lot of the self-taught have the ABILITY to fix the system.

Lucky for me, we are not a 24 hour shop, so I don’t have to worry about it. I do schedule myself to work on weekends if I have to take a server down for more than a half hour. Half hour is done with warning, but during business hours. More than that, and I come in on Sat or Sun and do it. no one has down time, and I don’t have the added pressure of 100 people asking when the server will be back up. One less thing to distract me. But it is my choice, not at direction from my boss.

I agree with doing both…

In reply to Many reasons for all the self taught

I say do both if you want job security – on the very off chance that you absolutely can’t find any techie job you like, you always have a degree in SOMETHING to fall back on. It doesn’t hurt that it’s an IT degree.

I just don’t think it’s as black and white as some people think. Although people with experience will definitely have more to offer than a recent college grad, there is something to be said about the discipline required to complete a Bachelor of Science degree in Computer Science or Information Technology, etc. I’m sorry, but 4 year degree in CS is NOT the same as a 4 year degree in elementary education – some degrees require more work and more dedication than others – the material is more challenging. And if you have the experience to add to that, managers will trust that you are not only capable of learning things and figuring things out, but that you can handle pressure.

I have a friend who has been building computers and setting up networks since he was 14. Knows Linux and Windows pretty much inside and out. He and I are in our 3rd year of CSci and he wants the degree because he wants as much knowledge and certification as he can get – he just thrives on this stuff. The guy is a genious, not just with computers but with physics and math, etc. When he gets done with school, he is going to be a VERY valuable resource. The main reason? Not only does he have the experience AND the degree, but he has people skills…which many of the techies I have met over the years simply don’t have. This just happens to be one of the biggest complaints that management has about IT staff.

Very True

In reply to I agree with doing both…

I aggree that the people skills are high on the list. The number of people in IT / CS related jobs that have none is shocking. Hence the stereotype IT guy situation.

Nothing is worse than working with somebody who for some reson thinks he / she is better and more intelligent than everybody else.

I wonder why people can boast about hardware / software specs they have but yet see no reason to boost theor personal ‘h-esk’ specs .

the IT guy

In reply to Very True

That’s why I’m glad I waited a few years to go to college (although I was kicking myself at first). I got out into the work force first, doing customer service, sales, and eventually account management. Now I have over 5 years of working with individuals and businesses – and pretty soon I’ll have the technical degree and experience to go with it.

I know what you mean about the know-it-alls. Reminds me of the SNL skit about the typical IT guy…your computer crashes, he comes in and gives you a disproving look, then launches into a bunch of tech-speak while rolling his eyes. I’ve worked with so many of these!! Most users don’t care that you know all the terminology, or that you taught yourself how to code in 52 different languages. They just want to be treated with respect – and get their computer working again.

It is a problem…

In reply to Very True

When a kid thinks he knows better. If he doesn’t, he comes off arrogant and nasty.

It especially happens with the first level contacts. As the last line of support, I handle many users that the helpdesk people (IT/CS degreed and experienced have peeved off.) The thing is my users and developers with no degree know more about unix internals than do the “Professionals” on our helpdesk.

We have a couple of DBAs that’d knock your socks off. What they don’t know about Oracle could be written in crayon on a matchbook cover…

Conversely, there are some people…

People skill can be self-taught

In reply to I agree with doing both…

My brother does not have any kind of certification or Degree in computer or IT. He even failed when taking the HP/UX examination. And yet, he had develop his own Linux firewall and sell it for a government contract in my country with 6 figures (in MYR). He also had done a lot of system integration with a lot of government projects, be it from his previous company or by himself.

When he worked with his previous company, his boss awarded him with some percentage of the company shared, so that he would not quit. In fact the company now is already a public-listed company.

Now, he is running his own company. His income ? I don’t know but I do know sometimes he got cheque in 6 figures (in MYR) from for his projects with the government.

BTW, $$$ 6 figures that I mentioned is in Malaysian Ringgit. Usually in our country, a Degree in Computer or IT would get a monthly income of not more than MYR5,000. Even in his previous company, my brother get a monthly income of not less than MYR7,000, which is equivalent to somebody with Master in Computer.

So, any arguments ?

Agree totally

In reply to Many reasons for all the self taught

I came up the same way. 30 years ago, I took programming classes for mainframe programming (fortran & cobol). Since then, I have worked in hardware, network admin, Oracle DBA, and 20 different computer languages. During this period I have gone to formal classes when needed. Without the back ground of my experence, I would not have been able to master the other tasks as fully as I have. That being said, I would rate people in the following manner.

My First choice – Someone with lots of on the job training and instructor led training.

My second choice – Some one with lots of on the job training and little or no formal training.

My last choice – Book learning only. It’s like a drivers license. You can drive to the store, but I wouldn’t trust you in an car race.

Now I know why

In reply to Many reasons for all the self taught

When I first register for my Degree early this year, I did not have a clue why the management keep asking me to continue my Degree. Even most people with Degree said that Degree is nothing.

Jdclyde, you give me answer to it.
“Another reason degrees are seen as so important is the upper management spent a lot of time and money on degrees, and to turn around and say degrees are not important is too much of a slap in the face for them.”

But one thing for sure, in class you will learn the Technology, sometimes the old Technology. When you work, you will learn the Technology and the IT Solution. But what more important is the IT Solution, not the technology. Do we have to change Operating System (OS) in a server using state-of-the-art OS if the real problem is the code inside the application ?

Wannabes can Never Be …

In reply to Many reasons for all the self taught

In every profession, there are two kinds of professionals. A professional that “gets it” and all the rest.

There are a greater majority of people in IT who are self taught that “get it” and can usually run rings around the rest. The self-taught have an advantage, they have a genuine interest in whatever they are doing. The Wannabes don’t. Would I hire an IT professional strait from College, well, maybe if I had five(5) years to train them.

The only exception in this case, is/are programmers. Computer Science is one of those avenues that requires some base foundation to get started. Sure you can learn a programming language, but colleges and universities provide a gradual step by step approach from learning Basic, to Fortran, to data structures, to C to building a compiler. This process is difficult to learn on your own. I?m not saying it?s impossible but not likely. You can be a functional programmer but never understand the foundation of how it works.

As for a lawyer and doctor, what in the world does that have to do with IT?? As I stated earlier, every profession has the ?Gets It? people. All the rest ?Get Sued?.

-H

IS Manager for the past 15 years

DBA

In reply to Wannabes can Never Be …

You’re absolutely correct. But may I added that database is also one of the area where it is difficult to self-learn initially.

That’s why I’m taking Degree, though my salary now is better compared to other people with the same qualification as mine. It is not just about the salary, but it is more about learning database.

It would difficult to self-learn database if you have almost zero knowledge in it.

Experience beats a degree any day

In reply to CAUGHT

As a project manager, I KNOW that it is my history of leading successful projects that gets me the next contract. When business is considering who will lead their multi million dollar initiative, who do you think they will be excited about attracting? The 20-something with a four year degree? Or the seasoned professional with 10 years of implementing successful projects?

Incidentally, I don’t have an IT degree. My formal training is in nursing- Emergency nursing to be specific.

What I also have is a deep interest in IT that dates back well over 20 years. I started with keypunch (yeah- I know) and stayed current with technology. While I no longer code, I can- and in several languages. I have worked in networking since the 90s, have carried around a few Micro$oft certs, have carried around a few Cisco certs, and am capable of doing the work, not just leading the project.

My partner is similar. Four year degree in Mathematics and Economics, deep interest in programming. He has been in his role for 27 years and is curently the Senior Application Architect. While it could be argued that a BS in Math might be applicable to a career in complex application architecture, it isn’t the same as a degree in Computer Sciences.

And if I am selecting a team for a complex application, I want his years of expereince and system knowledge, not a fresh out of college with no real world experience.

And regardless of how I gained my knowledge, I am no less a professional than a degreed individual. The professional part isn’t conferred with the degree. It is earned in the trenches- whether you are a Doctor, Lawyer, or Project Manager.

Edited for typo

That’s a pretty broad brush…

In reply to Experience beats a degree any day

I’ve worked with a lot of IT people in my career and a large mix of experience over education and vice versa.

I?ve seen people who have ?10+ years experience? but it?s been in a limited scope and they tend to get out of their element quickly, and have seen educated people who don?t have a good grasp of how something works they just know if they put this input in they get a certain output.

I?ve seen a bachelor degree technical manager (aka Mr. Knowitall) who tried to hot swap RAM on a server (that wasn?t hot swappable) and left scorch marks on the motherboard. I?ve seen ?highly experienced? network techs that connected a gigabit server network to a user (workstation/printer) 100 MB network through a 10 MB router and spent 2 weeks working on why the network was ?slow? (and there were 2 of them working on this I kid you not).

I think the question is a valid one, but like most things you can?t say “experience always beats education” or the other way around and I?ve seen great techs from both sides. And seen techs on both sides who only seem to know how to BS their users and management and scapegoat as required.

-Z

Thanks for keeping me honest

In reply to That’s a pretty broad brush…

I have seen similar. My favourites were the guy who had worked the Help Desk for a number of years and had finally moved to the Unix Security group. Stopped me early one morning because he couldn’t connect to the network. My first question to him was if he had done the basics- check your cables etc. “Oh yes” he tells me. I reached around to the back of the computer and handed him his patch cable. It had been un-plugged. He had the grace to be embarrassed.

I think that we all have stories about the idiot moves we have seen. And we can probably tell on ourselves. I agree that not all experience is broad enough to compensate for all needs. I also have seen too many certified “professionals” that couldn’t think their way out of a paper bag.

But no question, you are correct. I should not have stated an absolute. I agree that there aren’t absolute answers to this.

Walk the walk

In reply to CAUGHT

The “paper says you can talk the talk, but walk the walk?? I started in 1963, and learned by “playing” with a bread board and some simple logic chips. I did earn an associate degree while in high school, and was tempered in the storms of the Viet Nam conflict. My first job was in a calibration lab, and the computers came naturally in the early 70’s. I have encountered many a “papered” individual, that didn’t have a bit of hands on experience, but tried to command a high pay to match the “paper”. Many fell by the wayside and left the market segment because of that inexperience. I’m actually an electronics technician, with work experience from high voltage power systems to mainframe systems and support. Most of that background has been on site support for a large cross section of industrial manufacturers. My education has consisted of numerous manufacters schools slanted to specific products and services. A candidate in my view must be able to soothe the savage beast(end user) and fix the problem, whether a modem, printer, plotter, monitor or stand-alone PC’s. Many jobs involve working on someone elses products and software. A piece of paper does not reflect this hands on experience, nor does it imply expertiece in any field, only that the fundamentals have been met. Many Cert courses test for these skills, but can not teach how to handle a disgruntled user who knows nothing but professes to know all. I’ve trained many a tech in the field skills, and even presented a few papers on how to approach users in a forward manner and deal with two problems, 1. The problem as reported by the help desk..2. The problem as perceived by the user. Too often the real problem lies in the interface between the user and the help desk people. An incomplete discription can lead techs to assume one type of failure and doesn’t have anything to do with the real problem. I think the use of “papered” persons on the help desk staffs can go a long ways to build the neccesary backgrounds needed to make them effective in the hands on areas. There are those who should never progress beyond the desk, as they are fools in the field. Management staffs should be alert to this, and allow experienced techs to do the screening before turning them lose on unsuspecting users. If this isn’t done, the real techs will be scorned by proxy and not trusted. Also, someone who knows their job will have double duty, soothe the feathers of the user whose machine is torn up and fix the offending hardware or software. Not always easy, and sometimes impossible. Choose your candidates carefully. One trick I’ve used is a simple test of ten questions that are simple to the real tech, but will dumbfound the book learned ones with what may be misleading symptoms.

[i]When looking at candidates for a medium sized or larger business……..

In reply to CAUGHT

you have to realize most candidates are being screened by HR departments who have no concept of what IT is and what is required to perform the job. HR people are human and don’t want to make any mistakes and thus, they will look to a certificate as a sort of guarantee an individual is qualified. It makes it very difficult for an experienced individual to get by the screening. It will hopefully change when more computer literate people become involved in HR but that is going to take a while yet. This is why experienced people should try to circumvent HR by approaching department heads directly.

Several years ago, you might have wanted to order some hardware for your department but the purchasing people had no knowledge of computer companies other than IBM. As the saying went, “Nobody ever got fired for buying big blue.” I often found myself in the position of practically having to beg purchasing to buy the equipment I was specifying.

A similar attitude is in place in most HR departments. What a cert or degee shows is that an individual is trainable but is no guarantee of competence. That should be determined by the individual asking for the “warm body”. Competence comes in many forms, not all qualified by any piece of paper.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

Associate or Member Institute would be beneficial

In reply to CAUGHT

Though I have certifications and diplomas, apart from a Physics degree..I am mostly self-taught.

But having something on the line of Associate Member of Institute of Engineers or other professional qualifications, will be an added benefit to our Industry on the whole. This will provide a path for experienced people to be a member or fellow of an internationally recognized body. It is debatable though if people would pursue this path; if they can just go get a normal degree what is the motivation to go this route.

But with different [b]Needs[/b], standards and specifications that are prelevant in the industry, it might be an arduous task. There already exists many consortiums dealing with different aspects of our industry. For example W3C, OMG etc. Having an umbrella Institute, covering all these industry standard and non-standards, could get daunting.

Depends, depends, depends

In reply to CAUGHT

Other than medical and legal, many professions don’t have regulations stating you HAVE to be certified to be a professional.

This then leaves the decision up to the employer. I was an in Accounting for 2 years, but never certified as an accountant.
I have been managing IT in the officeplace for over a decade, but don’t have any actual certificates.

My work experience in the officeplace began when I was a Freshman in high school, so by the time I graduated HS I probably had more office experience than many college grads. It is this experience, as well as my ability to display my aptitude while working, that gave me the jobs that I got. (Assistant Bookkeeper, MIS, IT Mgr)

Certification is nice for an employer because it says the person has the education and the general knowledge of the area, but there is [b]soooo[/b] much that can only be learned through experience. Because tech is a problem solving profession, you can only teach so many incidents, there is no way to cover all things that could happen. Therefore actual experience I think has more weight over a paper.
Tink

semi-flawed reasoning..

In reply to CAUGHT

“would you hire and trust a self taught Lawyer or Doctor – Doubt it – so why in IT??”

this is a semi-flawed logic, in the sense that you are comparing completely different things..

I for one am self taught. you know what i hear from so called certifed support techs over the phone?? the sound of pages turning in a book. this tells me: A. They are clueless, B. i should hangup right now before they go through the standard check list i automatically go through before i call for help. you know basics..check for loose connections, cables, and so on. OR i cut them off and tell them what is happening, and what i think it might be(after telling them to put away the book of course) naturally i mention my system specs. I love to tease the local repair shops with these things because that is all they do is read from a bookand repeate it to the person on the phone. a friend of mine that works for Gateway told me that they too are told to repeat what ever the book says. If an HP user calls my ISP for help specifically do you know what the number one thing they might tell them to do? REBOOT. surprisingly enough that seems to work 40% of the time.

Anyone can repeats what a book says(which a lot of the time is exactly what certified techs with little or no actual hands on experience do). in the real world environmeant you probably don’t have a book to look to,and your expected to just know the information. a certification to me means very little, beyond that you had the money to go to a university or tech school. In my case i don’t have the money to go to a tech school and get certified. for the most part i am probably the most honest(if not second most) PC repair guy in my area. If i don’t know how to fix something right off hand i’ll say so. in the spirit of not remainning ignorant i search the web for similar problems, and i usually come across a solution that works. if i don’t come up with a solution, then i send them to someone i know with more knowledge then i…he happens to live right around the corner from me, and is certified, so i often ask his opinions.
I have been doing this the last 4 1/2 years, and i think i’ve done quite well, and i have never heard a complaint from anyone. if i mess something up i fix it no extra charge. I value hands on experience a little more than then certifications(even though they are nice to have) as i have seen far too many ignorant people at “help desks”, and phone support.

In short a certification means nothing without experience to back it up.

The way to do it…

In reply to semi-flawed reasoning..

There was no money made available to me for this degree.- I worked long hours in to the night after class and every weekend for 5 years to earn the money to take my degree. In fact (after year 2) I ended up working for the University as a Tech (the ‘sacred’ experience – it was a clever move if I do say so). I left with 3 years tech experience and a degree. I barely had a day off over the 5 year period.

Significant Factor

In reply to CAUGHT

The workings of the human body don’t change from month to month or year to year. The understanding of it does (MRI alone has made huge differences, and PET scans and such), but there are basics, like setting bones and pulling bad teeth, that have been true for millennia.

Law is slow to change as well.

It’s easier to regulate when you can have a standard in place for long enough that the students learning it in school will still use it when they graduate.

If you studied medicine, law, engineering, accounting, etc., in the 1970s, you’re probably still able to do a decent job as a family doctor, a lawyer, a civil engineer, or an accountant. If you studied computers in the 1970s, you have just about zero skills from that time that are still applicable.

If you studied medicine in the late 90s, you definitely still have skills that are applicable. But you probably wouldn’t be familiar with XML Web services, definitely wouldn’t be familiar with Ruby on Rails, DotNetNuke, etc.

The thing about working in IT is that much of the production is closely related to research. Using a new technology to do a new thing, or to do an old thing better than before, is what IT is all about.

If you check, the people doing medical research are often not MDs. The people researching new materials to build buildings and bridges are not construction engineers. And so on. IT has the two subjects, research and practice, too closely tied together to truly standardize.

On the trust issue: Would you trust a doctor who got his MD from Harvard in the 60s, who reads the medical news, but who hasn’t the foggiest idea how to operate an MRI or PET scan, who’s been practicing family medicine solidly since then? For a regular MD type issue, yearly checkup, kid’s got the flu type things, you would do well to trust that doctor.

Would you trust a computer programmer whose training was in the 60s, who still uses punch-cards, who hasn’t the foggiest notion what an object is and thinks that database programmers are talking about second movies (which are never as good as the first one, except for Empire Strikes Back of course)? Would you hand him a project? Definitely not.

The same can be said for lawyers, accountants, civil engineers, etc., as for the family doctor.

So, self-trained or formally trained, it’s the skills held and the familiarity with them, not the piece of paper, in IT.

Simple Solution…

In reply to CAUGHT

We have a simple solution in our IT dept. We have a 4 hour test that each new hire has to take before they can even come in for a formal interview. If they cannot pass the test, they don’t get the interview. You would be suprised how many people cannot pass the test, but say they’ve worked in IT support for years.

We grew tired of hiring people that supposedly knew their software/hardware, and had papers proving it, but could not cut it in our busy department.

It’s pretty bad when a person who graduated with a BS in Computer Science and got their MOUS certification still can’t pass the test.

Most of the people who passed the test and are now valued employees, are self taught or were taught on the job. Most of them do not have degrees in a technology field.

Find the correct error and win the job!

In reply to Simple Solution…

Several months ago I interviewed with a company that gave a VB .Net ?test? using snippets of code from their own system with errors added. The objective was to find the errors that the programmers added. Unfortunately I not only found the added errors, I also found some of the errors that are in their current production system. They were a little bent out of shape over that, needless to say I did not get the job.

Exactly Right!

In reply to Find the correct error and win the job!

Sorry you didn’t get the job (although they should have seen the bright side to your findings).

We do the exact thing here. Our test is made up of Real Tech Support questions we get, and it includes some minor networking trouble-shooting questions and what we call “Beyond the Basics” for MS Office. The test is long, but if you know your stuff, it isn’t really that difficult.

When someone fails it or doesn’t finish, then we know that person doesn’t know what they say they know.

Those were the days…

In reply to Exactly Right!

I think it is brilliant that your company actually tests people to prove what they say they know.

Many years ago I was applying for a job. The description stated a requirement that I “knew” computers. The recruiter went through the basic tests- the ones I could do sleeping (how do you create a document in Word?). Finished the tests and was waiting for a printout of the result. Printer proceeded to go down hard. So I fixed it.

I was later told that they had never had such a perfect fit for a company ever before. I was there for two years before I made a geographical move that ended our association. For about five years later, I continued to get calls from my old boss asking if I would consider moving back as they couldn’t find anyone with my skill set.

It is always good to be valued because you bring the right skill set to the table.

PS- Ed- you should have never been passed over because you found their errors. They should have been ecstatic that you would consider joining them!

Company Self Cert?

In reply to Exactly Right!

Is that not like administering your own [the company] cert to even get the job. How is that any better than having an industry standard cert so you do not need to worry about it…

Or is it that companies would rather do this than trust a standard cert program?

Company Cert <-> Indus. Std Cert

In reply to Company Self Cert?

A company self test or cert (CSC) gives the company the insight on how one has converted his Industry Standard Cert (ISC) AND working experience in to skills needed for the job.
So will give the company better knowledge of what kinda employee they?re going to hire. And there is of course the difference between passing an ISC examination with A+ or D- (if the latter is ever possible)
All in all the company will have better results to make their decision upon who to hire.

A CSC is more in addition to an ISC then a replacement of.

Rob

Believe it or not…

In reply to Company Self Cert?

There are those of us out here that pre-date IT certification or indeed even degrees. When I started, the MOUS and MCSE didn’t exist. There wasn’t a wiring standard outside of best practice- which every person who has ever pulled cable is aware of. Or should be. BICSI was a telephony standard, not a data standard.

There are women in the field- like me- who were actively discouraged from IT because it wasn’t a woman friendly field. The women here in this forum represent many of us that have had to break barriers in order to advance. And breaking those barriers had NOTHING to do with a degree. You don’t GET a degree in glass ceiling breaking.

Edited because I want a spell checker!

Absolutely Correct!

In reply to Believe it or not…

As a woman, I found I had to prove myself that much more just to get as far as I did in the tech industry. It’s not so hard nowadays, but back in the late 80s early 90s (when I was job seeking), it was much more difficult.

I broke the barriers by shear skill and knowledge, not a degree (I don’t have a degree, just some college classes)

ICT not woman friendly ?:|

In reply to Believe it or not…

I guess that is, unfortunately, the truth nowadays.

In the early day?s of computing there where more woman then men in the IT field. This was in the days of data entry rooms (typing rooms) from where the computer rooms started.

As computers became more tech, more and more the job became a men’s job. This due to the tending that men are more in to tech than woman are. [i]as I believe is not correct. (there was a discussion some month’s back over this. Stargazerr started that one as I recollect correctly)[/i]

I do agree with you that a degree or cert isn’t an absolute must in ICT. On the other hand it does help. As I have a degree in Math’s and physics (but started in ICT at the bottom as comp. operator and tech supp.) my degree only helped me to move up the ladder more quickly then co-workers with-out.

[b]What made me move up the ladder was: I got experience in the ICT-field.[/b] That was and still is the real trigger.

Rob

Not the Same as Standardization

In reply to Company Self Cert?

This is a test geared to the needs of OUR company only. Not all companies have the same needs or need the same standards.

Even within our large firm, there are some offices that have a greater need for specific knowledge than the other offices. So the tests for each office within our company may or may not be exactly the same. Some may have more networking questions, some may have hardware and software questions and some may only have software questions. It depens on the size and needs of the office in question.

This is where “standardization” fails. It assumes that all companies have the same needs.

No you’re wrong there [i]Kattoon[/i]

In reply to Not the Same as Standardization

It actually assumes that all IT has the same needs. You can move from one specialised field to another without a problem or so some think.

Some believe that they could have been on my Engine Management Team [b]Punching Code[/b] and then move to a development team attempting to develop an [b]AI[/b] with the same [b]Skill Set.[/b]

Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way for most of us, in my former position there are maybe somewhere around 20 people world wide who can do what I used to do and I know that I certainly could not move to a position of developing an AI, but it’s all [b]IT[/b] work which most people don’t understand.

Col

Actually, you just re-stated what I said…

In reply to No you’re wrong there [i]Kattoon[/i]

Nowhere in my statement did I say that one test will work for every dept in the same company. Nor did I say that all IT has the same needs. What I said was that our Company uses a test that will work for our needs. And that the test is changed based upon the needs of each location.

So in your example, what I said was that there would be one test for your Engine Management team, and a different test for the AI team.

I never said that the same test would work for everything, in fact, I stated the opposite.

Sorry if I confused you.

Most likely MY FAULT

In reply to No you’re wrong there [i]Kattoon[/i]

What I was trying to get across is that [b]IT[/b] is a very big field with very few common points that can be measured as a [b]Whole Industry.[/b] To many the IT person is the one from the Server Room or Help Desk who gets called out to fix a workstation when actually it is a much more diverse field.

Everything from System Board Designers to a cable puller fall into this area of work and all are called [b]IT Workers[/b] though very few of them do a similar sort of job.

So when you really start looking at the mechanics of attempting to issue a Cert for IT what area would you need to cover?

Even today with the current generation of F1 cars the mechanics who actually fit things to the car are virtually [b]IT Pros[/b] or at the very least [b]Electronic Fitters[/b] as it takes them about 10 minutes to bolt on one side of a suspension system and then close to 3 days to calibrate all the electronic sensors involved with he replacement part/s that are built into it.

I actually walked away from F1 when I needed to start developing different engine maps taking into account the G Forces being applied and in which way that where being applied under acceleration or braking was quite OK but when you had to start to take into account Side Loadings things started to get really hard to work with. Now they not only take into account Side Loads but also suspension position at the time Brake Pad/Disk Wear which is all quite acceptable but there are now so many sensors on these cars that it’s now a full time job for about 20 people just to monitor the telemetry coming from each car.

Long gone are the days when you had 2 types of IT workers the Support Staff who would come around and fix something and then that bunch of unkept people who where locked away for your protection, they generally had long unkept hair where dirty and looked as if they could do with about 3 years sleep just to look [b]Half Alive[/b] and where known as [b]Programmers[/b] which struck fear into the hearts of any end user when they where told that a [b]Programmer[/b] was going to come around to see what was going wrong.

Then you have the people allowed dangerous implements commonly known as things like screwdrivers which they can either pull the cover of a case to look inside for your lunch that has mysteriously disappeared or maybe stab you with the same item. You never quite knew how a [b]Hardware Mechanic[/b] would react when they found something odd inside a computer.

I don’t know about you but some of the things that I’ve pulled out of what should be a closed sealed case are scary. :^0

Col ]:)

Std tests you can study for.

In reply to Company Self Cert?

The company test finds out these things.
1. Do you know your stuff.
2. Can you think on your feet.
3. Are you willing to be cooperative.

Std Certs concentrate on stuff that may be completely irrelevant. You can know virtually everything about the system but not know about mass deployment. Most companies do not use MS mass deployments, anyway.

sure

In reply to Company Self Cert?

come with a non distro centric linux cert, it will impress.
come with no cert, doesn’t matter

come with a company cert, not impressed.

if you are going to be working tech for me, or as a developer, you had better be able to follow instructions ]:)
I test techs and developers by handing them parts, a cd and a printout, they get to assemble the hardware, then build from source the os.

this is the hiring test. if you fail, you can’t do the job.

That’s it!

In reply to sure

That’s exactly what we do.

No matter what skill set a cert or college says they have, (even if they say that have years of “expierence”) if they fail the “hiring” test, they don’t get an interview.

What About>?

In reply to That’s it!

What about non cert or College – do you treat them both equally????

Spuddy,

In reply to That’s it!

yup.
everyone gets exactly the same test, for tech positions.

I strongly beleive that all IT is a team, and expect everyone to be able to do all tasks to some degree.
[ someone who has never done application development, I wouldn’t expect them to be a top team member for such, until they have had a number of different projects complete successfully that they were on. ]

I use the practice of cross train the entire department, so everyone can do any job. No person is indispensible, this promotes that understanding, and guarantees that holidays, staff changes, accidents [ hospitalisation ] or even death don’t hurt the company’s projects to much.

Any time a Manager begins to feel that a particular employee is indispensible, it’s time to dismiss the employee, before they do more damage to company interests.

Spuddy, We are all in the same boat

In reply to That’s it!

He who paddles best does the driving…

If it is the CS MS from Case, he gets the job, if it is the kid who has a nose ring and long hair, who dropped out of high school, he gets the job.

That is why I hand them a distibution set and check on them in an hour…

Test Contents?

In reply to Simple Solution…

Just out of curiousity – what did the test include? I think that would be a great way to screen out the individuals without the skils, paper or no paper.

You make the test suit your needs

In reply to Test Contents?

IT is such a diverse field that it’s impossible to have a [b]One Size Fits All[/b] type testing or teaching.

If you are into programing a Help Desk Support test would not suit your needs at all would it? Look at what it is that you need and then design a Test Accordingly.

These can be something as simple as just a 1 Page written test to some form of piratical testing where the applicant builds a workstation from scratch and builds a Nix OS from scratch [i]by using Linux From Scratch[/i] as well. Of course if they where to be working on Windows support you could then give them an OEM Copy of Windows and the assorted driver Disc’s and then tell them to make a working workstation.

It really depends on what it is that you wish to test on if it’s program knowledge you could use something as simple as making a document in Office and making a [b]Mail Merge[/b] from a already made D Base. The possibilities are endless and are only governed by your needs.

Col

Both

In reply to CAUGHT

I’ve been in the industry 7 years and it’s all self taught with a few classes as a beginner in new technologies here and there. I think it’s a great thing to get into new stuff, you can get your certs or whatever other paper you want to get later. The experience is much more helpful than the paper. I took a class just to take it back a few years ago and I had more knowledge then the trainer – but I have also taken short classes on different subjects that I have knowledge in and have found the instructors to be great at showing me items I was unsure of or just didn’t know about. So, it’s a double edged sword in some cases. But I’ll take the experienced over the paper any day.

It’s simple

In reply to CAUGHT

Show me a 12-year-old who can remove an appendix or write a will.

I can show you many 12-year-olds that can build and operate a computer, write code and develop web pages.

]:) okay ]:)

In reply to It’s simple

lets put them on linux boxes, with no drag and drop development tools [ since those aren’t common in linux ] and see how well they do. 😉

Shouldn’t be a problem

In reply to ]:) okay ]:)

They teach that stuff in our high school. But to be more exact, they teach C++ using notepad. And the kids are 16 not 12.

What you learn in uni is just we took time to write

In reply to CAUGHT

Everything in a uni course is the edited collected wisdom of what others have done and found time to write down. Sadly, the editorial bit done by educators and academics often result in teaching results and not processes. And they tend to leave out, or gloss over, anything they disagree with or think is no longer relevant.

Many of the greatest advances have come about because someone did something the highly trained experts at uni just KNEW was impossible to do.

The world has room for both and people from both spheres contribute in different ways.

I was self taught and then went and got qualifications to say I knew what I knew. In class, some of the better teachers would seek comment from me about some things as my knowledge exceeded theirs.

[i]Ernie, unfortunately, knowledge isn’t always a measure of …………..

In reply to What you learn in uni is just we took time to write

intelligence and far to many don’t or won’t use what little they’ve got. When [b]we[/b] hire people it is always on a probationary six month trial. I often find the people we retain are the experienced ones, with or without papers. Most of the time we end up chopping the ones who think their degree or certs guarantees their positions.

I try to avoid direct management because I know I am not the most diplomatic of individuals, in fact I can be somewhat brutal at times. If you asked me how I inspire people, it’s really quite simple, I remind them that nobody is irreplaceable and if they won’t or can’t deliver what I want or need, I will find people who can. The implied threat usually produces the results I am seeking. Not too surprisingly, it is uasually the experienced people who’ll come through best for me.

The funny thing is, I must be doing something right, in terms of management. The turnover in personnel is very low by industry standards. My partners keep telling me I have to be more diplomatic in todays business environment but I point out to them that all our people know, I apply the same standards to myself as I do to the employees. I’ll pull myself off a job and give it to someone with more competence rather than persist in screwing around with something I think I’m liable to bolix up. My people know that and when they start to feel something is beyond them, they aren’t afraid to speak up and say so, because I have yet to fire anyone honest enough who will admit his limitations. In these cases I reassign the individual to more suitable tasks. However, the individual who tries to bullsh:t his way through the job is going to be toast; very quickly. I am not renowned for patience or the ability to suffer fools. Experienced people are quick to pick up on this, those who’ve just graduated quite often just don’t measure up.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

Correct, but it’s a good place to start

In reply to [i]Ernie, unfortunately, knowledge isn’t always a measure of …………..

Attitudes and work skills will always outweight knowledge in dealing with something unusual, but knowledge will help in dealing with the known. The trouble is when you are hiring you can only really test knowledge unless you set a physical exam, which is not always easy to organise. Some people, especially degreed recruitment and management people, think that any knowledge learnt at a uni is worth more than experience based knowledge. It is a form of bigoted idiocy.

Actually, Lawyers are self taught

In reply to CAUGHT

Law school merely trains law students how to use their skills to interpret the law, how to find the law. The art of practising law and knowing what is the current law are self taught. Not much different than Abe Lincoln teaching himself the law.

Change?

In reply to CAUGHT

Looking at responses do we then want change the way IT is educated in the first place. For example: Have courses with more hands on / apprenticeship / real life situations – would this become more appealing to the masses??

For the experienced not needing this path, say a fast track method to gain the same credential?

This would then build foundation level requirements for all and could cover proprietary and open source elements.

The credential could have levels ? if you want to take it further.

What do you meant something like Apprentices?

In reply to Change?

I’ve tried to kill a few over the years but they just managed to run too fast for me to catch them. 🙁

When I went to Uni there where [b]No Computer Science Courses[/b] it was all called [b]Electronic Engineering[/b] so from a technical point of view I have no IT Qualifications even if I do have a PHD in Electronic Engineering specialising in Computing Systems.

I’ve been working with Mainframes since 74 and PC’s sometime after that when what is now called a Note Book actually was called a [b]Portable[/b] and looked like a Plastic Suitcase only heaver.

But the very first [b]Paper Qualified Person[/b] that I ran across was given a job by me to write some code to be part of an [b]Engine Management System[/b] back in those days we wrote the code in Boolean and had to fit it on a 64K EPROM. The one very small subsystem that he rewrote for me came back as a 128 K Basic format to burn into that EPROM and when I asked how he intended to actually fit the entire system on the available Hardware I was told that it wasn’t his problem that should be left to a [b]Hardware Designer[/b] to accomplish. He was a good example of why [b]Paper Training[/b] doesn’t work in this field and I might add the Medical Field as well as those guys not only operate on Cadavers but latter on in their courses they treat living sick people. We call them [b]Medical Students.[/b]

But I’ve worked with several [b]Paper Trained Techs[/b] and several On the Job Trained ones and I look for commitment rather than anything else if the people are willing and want to work as apposed to just having a 9 to 5 job with [b]Great Pay[/b] I’ll take the worker every time no matter what the qualifications are. You can always teach what is required but you’ll never manage to make a lazy person do an effective job properly.

I used to look for commitment to the job in all my staff when I chose them and I think that you’ll find the same applies today no matter the field.

Col

And frankly it wouldn’t work.

In reply to Change?

When you set a path like that, you discourage those who are already here. I have worked successfully in my profession for several years. Are you suggesting that someone like myself or HAL or Maecuff should be required to waste a mass of time and money so that we can continue to do what we already successfully do?

There IS a certification for Project Management. I refuse to get it. Why? Because the governing body has determined that there is no difference between leading an IT project and leading a Construction project.(!) Having had to do both, I KNOW there is a difference and a major one. There is finally a cert that recognises this difference but it hasn’t gained traction yet. And I can take it further- there is a difference between an infrastructure project and a software dev project. How do you define a single cert for that? How do you define a career path for it? Answer, you don’t.

I do not see a value to acquiring an cert just because it is there. I feel strongly that it is a waste of my time to get a cert that doesn’t tell you what I am qualified to do. Read my resume- if my qualifications and history of success are not enough, I probably don’t care to work for you. Why? Because I am MORE than my education or area of specialty. I have unquantifiable skills that allow me to be successful in the projects I take on. I didn’t get those skills by reading a book and taking a test. I got them though years of experience in both IT and elsewhere.

I don’t feel a need to seek a credential or certification that doesn’t tell you nearly enough about what I am able to do. The fact is that my EXPERIENCE is what determines if I get the job.

Agreed

In reply to And frankly it wouldn’t work.

I think you’re right on with this TiggerTwo.

The problem is that exams can’t test some of the most important aspects of a good IT person. The ability to work with people, to follow a solid troubleshooting process in complex situations and the ability to pick up concepts and learn system intricacies can’t be tested past a very simple level.

Exams typically follow absolutes and theory over reality – which is why many people study for the exam differently than for application in the real world. I’ve gotten lots of certifications and many tests really had nothing to do with what I needed to know for what I was certified in.

The problem with an apprentice program is that the best IT people are always unbelievably swamped and only the mediocre or poor ones would be readily available – and do you want people learning from them?

-Z

Competency Based Training does this

In reply to Change?

except the carriculum stuff. With CBT you have practical quantitaive exams, it is easy to have subjects set up so that people, who know how, can self study. Thus the self-study and the experienced can come in and sit the exam, if they pass they pass. Next subject thanks. When I did my quals, using CBT I did a whole semester’s worth of classess by turning up week one at the self-study centre, get the project assignments; take them home return them for marking in week two and sit the exam (which included amendments to the projects) at the same time. That was Smester 1 done in two weeks, took a break and then did semester 2, the same way; followed by half of semester 3 and a third of semester 4; all done in the first two months. If you are a fast self learner or experienced you easily fast track by proving you can do it.

You are sticking a nerve here

In reply to CAUGHT

There are lots of heated arguments on either side of this.

I get really tired of the either/or game. I have been working on hardware since 1987. So I have the experience. I also decided to take all the certs, too. Did I _need_ certs? Nope. But I figured out how the game was played, and took them anyway.

Certifications like law and medicine are different. You cannot compare IT _ever_ to those. My contention is that no college or certifications are needed for IT jobs now, unless maybe you are in management eventually, when the degree in business or MBA comes in handy. IT has more in common with auto mechanics than law or medicine. It is a support field, not a field unto itself.

You can get all (and better) training you need at a vocational school. So you do not need college at all. My experience with school curriculum has shown me that the majority of Computer Science programs in the US are 20 years behind the times. So a degree in Computer Science is useless in the Windows world.

If someone has 30+ years in the industry, what is the big deal about taking a 90 minute test? They already know it, right? Or…maybe not? Hmm.

If someone has been doing IT for 30+ years, then they will remember that during the 60s and 70s a degree in ENGINEERING was required to work at the big companies. Read the book “Soul of a New Machine.” These guys were not amateurs in a garage. They were professional engineers with degrees from MIT who designed complete systems form the ground up. While Bill Gates had no degree he surrounded himself with people who did. Steve Jobs had no degree, but Steve Wozniak did! So there is alot of distortion about exactly what is required to work with computers.

What we have for the computer industry today is a far cry from then. My dad worked for Digital, and could work on computers from the inside of the integrated circuit up. I remember him pouring over blueprints on the dining room table that took up the whole table, and it was the schematic for an integrated circuit! I could never do that, and I doubt most of today’s “IT experts” could either. (Oh yeah…my dad had no college degrees. He learned electronic engineering in the Navy. He had PhD’s working for him, because he had extensive management experience!)

Professionalism is more than just qualifications, but it is a part of it. To me, a true professional will go out of their way to get the qualifications, not bitch about having to spend the money or pride themselves on how much “experience” they have which makes them superior to everyone else.

Couldn’t have said it better

In reply to You are sticking a nerve here

To be a true professional, in all senses of the word, in any profession, you need BOTH training and experience. If you had to have brain surgery, you would go to the licensed doctor with a specialty in neurology who had the most EXPERIENCE as a brain surgeon, wouldn’t you? Anyone would pick the guy with 20 years of surgical experience over the guy who just graduated from med school. This is a no-brainer (pun intended). IT is no different – given the choice, I would always hire the person with both certifications and experience over the person with just one or the other.

Not exactly so.

In reply to Couldn’t have said it better

You don’t need training and experience — you need practical knowledge and a firm grasp of related theory. Formal training and experience can provide those things, if you’re lucky, but they can also provide nothing of worth. There are other ways to get the same things.

Paul Graham made something like $4.9 million dollars off something he and a partner started from scratch, called Viaweb, that revolutionized online business in the mid-nineties. Ya know what he majored in? Philosophy! (Incidentally, I dropped a CS major in favor of philosophy before I had even heard of Paul Graham because I noticed that majoring in CS was actually actively interfering with my ability to learn stuff about computers and programming — plus trig and calculus suck and have nothing to do with computers above the level of circuit design.)

By all means, all else being equal, get degreed, certified, and experienced. Those things are not necessities, nor even guarantors, of being good at IT work, though. They’re very likely to help, and that’s all.

Lawyers were better back when …

In reply to CAUGHT

… they “read to the law” for a number of years, instead of going to college, then law school and thinking that a law license was a license to print money to pay for all the student loans.

Back in those days you could actually find attorneys who would tell you that you didn’t have a case, you were full of shiite, and just because you tripped over your own big feet on the carpet, you didn’t have the right to sue the company to oblivion.

Educational Arrogance

In reply to CAUGHT

It has killed more than one profession.

Kinda explains why I’m going for a degree in history, rather than the slippery slope of a business degree.

Some IT Jobs Demand Advanced Degrees

In reply to CAUGHT

If you Intel needs an engineer to help develope a new chipset algorithim, it will select a person with a Masters in EE with a strong background in mathematics.

If Microsoft needs a developer to be part of a team designing a new version of C#, MS will select a cadidate with at least a BS in Comp Sci who has lots of expirecne desginer compilers and parsers.

If ACME Corp needs a administrator to assist in maintaining their infrastructure (File Servers, Switches, Routers, and Firewalls) they will be smart to search for someone who has done this for 3 or 4 years despite thier education.

If ACME Corp needs a senior network admin whil will be designing enterprise networks, security infrastructure, and data centers as well as project management, they will search for someone with a degree and expirence, or a person with certs and alot of expeirence.

and some IT Jobs dont but HR depts….

In reply to Some IT Jobs Demand Advanced Degrees

I absolutely agree with your point, but what frustrates myself and others is when a company lists an “entry level” job, then proceeds to require a Bachelor’s (Master’s preferred), along with 3-5+ yrs exp., and at least a dozen front line certs, for a position where an AAB degree would be overkill! How can you justify a CCIE for a Help Desk position, where the person wouldn’t even be allowed to touch a router, much less configure/troubleshoot them?

Exactly!!! Why would you…

In reply to and some IT Jobs dont but HR depts….

post up a but load of criteria for a person to just be a babysitter for a seat??? The job I’m on now, the position has the same types of requirements…work on routers & switches…hardware/software configuration & installation. And what do I do?? I just sit here trying to make up stuff to do…walk back and forth looking at the switches and be bored.

Indirect Impacts

In reply to and some IT Jobs dont but HR depts….

And, what they often don’t take into consideration when they ask for CCIEs on the help desk is that the moment something better becomes available that MIGHT require a CCIE that person is gone, and there goes the hiring train again…

Rather, if they get someone in who is better suited for the help desk they’re probably more likely to keep that person around longer, and at a more reasonable wage.

Here come the dinosaurs

In reply to CAUGHT

Having spent the past 20 something years in the mainframe arena, rising through operations and into an administrative support role, I say with confidence that the best IT person in a crisis is one who has come through the ranks and taken the knocks. But if it’s theory and nice design that you want, the book learning of a grad is what you look for.

The self taught know how it really works and the practical requirements of getting things done. But the graduate brings in the new ideas and cannot be ignored.

I just wish company management did not make such a blatant distinction between the two groups because it is the self taught who often save the day when the end is looking nigh.

Reminds me of a story…

In reply to Here come the dinosaurs

…my brother used to tell:

The engineer who ran the electrical plant for a company was forced to retire at 65. He was being replaced by a young MIT grad with an advanced degree in Electrical Engineering. The older guy had no degree.

Years later, there was a huge storm and the electricity went off. The MIT grad couldn’t figure out how to get the generator restarted. The company called the old guy back as a consultant to see what he could do.

The old guy looked at the generator, and whacked it with his cane. The generator whirled and started back up!

Later he sent the company a bill for $10,000. The company called him and demanded an explanation…after all, all he did was smack the generator!

The old guy sent back an itemized bill:

1. Cost to smack generator: $1.00
2. Cost for experience to know the exact spot where to smack generator: $9,999
TOTAL: $10,000

Education

In reply to Reminds me of a story…

I work in Education. Although I have been to Uni I have not finished my degree. Instead I have been self taught with some work experience.

I can assure you I have much more knowledge about computers than the teachers working here (all of which have of course been to Uni and completed their degrees.

Also, I.T. has developed all these years with such a regulatory body – why change things when they are working so well?

Education + Experience

In reply to Education

I went to Uni, competed Bsc(Hon) and now HAVE +10 years experience in IT. I am now a Systems Manager. My CV when compared to others with ‘similar experience only’ won me an interview.

But the questions remain even with interview.

In reply to Education + Experience

What kind of work ethic do you have?

Can you do the work?

Will you work well with the existing staff?

Do you represent the company well?

Do you have habits that make you undesirable?

I know a fellow with BS CS MS CS/OP research. He is intelligent and witty. He has had trouble holding a job. He weighs 350+ pounds, and can generate incredibly bad odors. Those two reasons kept him on the move…

1/2

In reply to But the questions remain even with interview.

Two out off four – could he not do anything abour his personal situation??

Many Health issues

In reply to 1/2

He had thyroid cancer…

That causes weight issues.

He also takes medication that causes the odors…

He isn’t athletic.

The less knowledgeable, the more important credentials are

In reply to Here come the dinosaurs

When the hiring manager knows little, he falls back on credentials to substitute for his inability to judge the caliber of the candidates, but these days he frequently ups the requirements simply to reduce the number of resumes he has to look through.

Most people …

In reply to The less knowledgeable, the more important credentials are

ignore the requirements and send their resume’ anyway. That is why it is such a problem for the manager and the prospective. You have to weed or get through all the junk before the manager ever sees if you are a fit. It is hard on both parties.

Very good point!

In reply to Here come the dinosaurs

You make an excellent distinction between self-taught and papered techs.

Indeed the self-taught know how to deal with the actual incidents because of prior experience – and the educated techs with degrees would be better for new ideas.

Calender Sharing

In reply to CAUGHT

Hello Friend,
I am having problem sharing my calender. Or I have no idea how to share calender in outlook2003
could u please five me guidelines as to its step by step configuration?
I would appreciate it.
Thanks in Advance

Learn, be, do

In reply to CAUGHT

did your mom need to be a physician to diagnose your fever, if you sprain your ankle, do you need a master’s degree in podiatry to realize you need RICE?

There’s some things where you need a special degree, and others where you don’t. Quackery manifests itself usually in the form of people that have a big degree/certificate but no SKILLS.
If your license says you can drive an 18-wheeler, but you’re really weak in anything but your personal car, does your extra credential make you a desirable employee with a trucking firm? C’mon, now…

But…

In reply to Learn, be, do

(by your reasons) the fact that the license says I can drive the 18-wheeler would enough to AT LEAST get me considered when compared to someone who has not….C’mon, now…

Just because they’re licensed

In reply to But…

Here is a case of someone who is is pilot and legally blind (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/3175969.stm). He fits your criteria of licensed is better, but would you hire him pilot?

Fly – Window

In reply to Just because they’re licensed

Do you really think a pilot looks out the window to fly the plane? Microlight perhaps but not a plane…so perhaps a blind person could fly a plane after all.

That isn’t the question that Ed asked.

In reply to Fly – Window

What Ed asked you was if YOU would hire him based on the fact that he has the credential. Whether or not it is theoretically possible to fly while blind is immaterial.

And incidentally, my answer is a firm NO. There is a reason that you want the pilot to be able to see- sometimes human intervention is required in the cockpit. There is a reason that large planes have a cockpit crew of FOUR.

Another really good point? The takeoff is optional. The LANDING is mandatory. I would like to land in a plane that stays in one piece. I am more likely to accomplish that with a pilot who can SEE.

Aviation history is full of times when a pilot didn’t look outside.

In reply to Fly – Window

All of them are disasterous.

When pilots can’t see and they are near the ground it is bad news.

A PSA Jet ran over a Cessna at 500 knots at 3000 ft AGL. He was supposed to be flying at 18,000. The largest disaster in Aviation history took place in the Canary Islands. It was merely one pilot not looking at the runway and coming straight in to impact another jet on the runway. He didn’t do a pattern to see if the runway was clear.

If you don’t realize that some sight is necessary to fly, then you don’t know anything about flying.
The watchword is see and be seen…

And Yes they do look out the windows.

In reply to Fly – Window

Most pilots don’t trust the Magic Hands system of landing. I have never let an autopilot land me.

I disengage autopilots anytime I am below 10,000 feet as a general rule of thumb. That is in everything from an INS guided F4,A6 down to a Cessna 150. Yes, even in instrument conditions you need a certain visibility to land. If I don’t have a 1/2 Mile of visibility I detour to my alternate.

In a Lear 45 or G3,4,or 5 you can ride an autopilot down in 0-0 weather. 0 visibility 0 ceiling. I value my life too much to do that.

Bonzers radars help, but terrain mapping isn’t really that good in my opinion. If a bonzer got a
Semi-Truck and flared 15 feet too high. OUCH!!!
If I can’t see I don’t fly.

Well

In reply to And Yes they do look out the windows.

Theoretically speaking it is possible to fly without seeing is it not. Theoretically…

Fly yes, Crash yes, land no…

In reply to And Yes they do look out the windows.

All takeoffs are optional. All landings are mandatory.

Don’t be more of a fool than you already have been. In the last 30+ years I have heard many stupid statements about flying, yours takes the cake.

I was one of the 5 percenters at every level I have been in my flying career. I will admit that you can navigate without outside reference. But, (remember that when you say but it invalidates the phrase befor the but) enroute is only the least important part of flying. Flying is Navigation, weather, reading guages, emergency procedures, and understanding systems, hydraulic,vacuum,electrical just to start the list. Without reading you can’t really apply it. A trained chimp who could follow orders could have made the ultralite flight.

With your contrariness you could not have made the flight yourself. Mere handling the flight controls a bright 6 year old can successfully “fly”, but that isn’t more than the tip of the iceberg. With your contrariness I am sure that has been your problem in finding profitable work.

Fool – I think not !!!

In reply to Fly yes, Crash yes, land no…

It was attempting a hypothetical question which once again seems to have gone over some heads.

To enlighten you to my views on flying. Well my father was a Wing Commander during the first Gulf War and I have been a passenger on fighter planes on more than one occasion. Not interested in any mini propeller or light aircraft woman?s machine. So before you brand anybody a fool in the future – THINK ABOUT IT.

Comparing the brave blind guy in the ultralite to a chimp – how low can you possibly get my friend, how low?

May your sight never leave you?.

Misthreaded

In reply to Fly yes, Crash yes, land no…

Spuddy- you aren’t a pilot. Your father was, you have been a passenger. Tjsanko IS a pilot. And of more commplex aircraft than you mention.

My father was an areospace engineer. That doesn’t mean that I am qualified to discuss wind-shear. It may mean that I understand what windshear is.

Fool , Yes! Brave maybe, but not necessarily. Uplifting Yes.

In reply to Fly yes, Crash yes, land no…

My sight has deteriated since my younger days. Ye cruel eld has crept upon my body. I thank you for the blessing on my sight.

However I am picking your statements apart again.

He didn’t have to be all that brave, he had the real pilot in command who did all the important parts of flying. He can no longer perform the duties of a pilot he is a pup,
“Physically Unable to Perform”.

The other person took off, got the vehicle to altitude, trimmed it up, and let the blind guy steer. and yes, he landed the ultralite. I think it was a nice human interest story, but I know that the blind guy knows he isn’t a pilot. What he did was have some fun.

The story may be inspirational, but the navigation, separation, throttle control, etc was out of his perview. Even if he could land the vehicle with the instructions, he wasn’t the one in control, or responsible for the safety of the plane…

I thank you for the blessing on my sight. May it go from your mouth to God’s ears.

You have a point, to a point

In reply to Fly – Window

but I don’t think braille altimeters are on the market yet

Use a SKILLS TEST

In reply to CAUGHT

You can use a skills test to check the capability of someone entering IT. Whether it be your IT candidate that was valedictorian or self taught. I knew a valedictorian that spent more time learning OUTSIDE of college, and still had time to attend. It was the work ethic that the individual had, and the challenge to know more, that would make them one of the greats in years to come.

Previous industry examples (which probably haven’t changed)….
Java was on the circuit for one year, Want Ads looked for programmers with 5 YEARS experience.
Same holds true for many products. The older entrenched IT staff that has not kept up, fail the skills test in that area. Self taught is without a doubt the only ongoing way to maintain a skills set.

p.s. You can maintain your skill set by enlisting in BETA TEST RELEASES…give that some thought.

Experience first, Academics second

In reply to CAUGHT

I don’t cae if it is a doctor or a lawyer or a “IT” professional. Take experience everytime.

How do I choose a doctor?
I have had good doctors and really bad doctors. The best referals for doctors have come from nurses. They know the doctor and their ability the best.

How did I choose a divorce lawyer?
I asked my business lawyer and a real estate lawyer who would they have represent them if they needed a divorce like I did. First time I got great representation. The second time I had to go on the certification and got competent but expense representation.

How do I hire IT people.

First I ask other IT people for referals. Within my own company I look for people who have had a great logic/patterns course at some point. Programming/Systems is not about a language but understanding patterns and translating it to the configuration of the day.

A university student would still need to pass the logic/patterns experience. I have had to re-learn from Real Time data capture machines to Mainframes, to Mini-Computers to distributed mini-computers, to PC’s to PC LAN networks, to the Internet (TCP/IP, from Assembler to Fortran to Cobol to Basic to DBASE/Foxbase to “C” to “C++” to Java and Javascript along with IBM/DOS, MPE, PRIMOS, NOVELL, Unix, SCO-Unix, C-shell,DECNET, MAESTRO yada yada yada.

The point is in this industry you must be solutions oriented and the solutions are changing everyday. How does a University keep up with that. They can not. All they can do is give you a good well trained mind. It is always up to the indivdual to keep learning and challenging themselves.

In our industry there are always ne

a longer list

In reply to Experience first, Academics second

I have a slightly longer list:

critical thinking first
subject-oriented enthusiasm second
appropriate skills/aptitudes third
experience fourth
academics fifth

Another List

In reply to a longer list

Good solid undergraduate / postgrad adacemic qualification (proof you can learn over x years / foundation of theory) – Not an MS Cert type thing.

Subject enthusiasm (important)

Good solid x years experience with examples and proof of progression within the examples.

Comptancy based criteria and example led interview techniques (examples from prospective employee)

And that list

In reply to Another List

Means that you will miss some of the most brilliant minds in IT.

If you have a proven success record, you have proven over the length of your career that you are teachable and willing to learn. If you have subject enthusiasm, your CV carries the proof of that- you are actively seeking pertinent classes and staying current. You are building on existing experience and not stagnating.

If you are competent, it shows. If you are incompetent, it shows.

Edited for typo

imcompetent – LOL

In reply to And that list

To quote TiggerTwo “If you are competent, it shows. If you are imcompetent, it shows.”

Best laugh all day – great!

If you are referring to the spelling error

In reply to imcompetent – LOL

I COULD invite your attention to your numerous spelling errors, as well as the grammatical errors. There is a reason that we ask frequently for a spell checker. We are all fallible…

ditto

In reply to If you are referring to the spelling error

Don’t let him get to you. If that’s all the rebuttal to your statement (s)he can come up with, there’s no use fretting over it.

some spelling errors

In reply to If you are referring to the spelling error

Can make spinoff the mind. 😀 🙂 😉

Special if you bring in account some different languages and contractions of words … :0

But if it was meant to be …

😡
Rob

Do you work in HR?

In reply to Another List

That sounds like the typical Human Resources requirements listing, based on years of bureaucratic buzzword-compliance experience and ass-covering with little or not basis in the reality of effectively finding truly excellent employees. The approach you advocate is great for covering your ass if you’re the HR guy that let someone get hired: if someone has the qualities you want, you can’t get in trouble for thinking he was a good fit. He looks so good on paper, after all.

That is the list I use too

In reply to a longer list

That is an important order to the lists. The critical thinking ability is very important. I know people who are very talented with regards to their skills. They also have the experience and academics, but they have NO critical thinking ability. You have to hold their hands through every situation. They can’t take what they learned from one situation and use it in another without help.

Certification Worth the Paper It is Printed On

In reply to CAUGHT

I’ve been in and around this businees since the mid 70’s and even had some courses in Fortran and COBOL prior to that. I’ve got exactly one sertification, and that is teh A+ one.

I’ve seen so many people with certs taht did not have an actual clue when it came to the work it is not funny. The ones that can do the work are few and far between.

The problem with such is that you really do not need any real world experience to get a cert. When I took the A+ exam, I had to for my job at the time. Boss wanted everyone to have that piece of paper. Boy, was I glad I read the book prior to taking the exam. The answers they were looking for would not solve the problem in most cases. No wonder these guys don’t know anything! I finished both sections fo the test before anyone else had even finished one section and was our of there. The test givers asked my why I was giving up. I told them I was done and the test was pretty stupid.

While I know there are un certified guys oout there who are just as bad as many of the certified guys I’ve seenm in my book, the cert tells nothing, experience tells all.

my 2 cents

In reply to Certification Worth the Paper It is Printed On

Greetings all

First off i haven’t got the time to read the whole thread ;-( so what i say may already be mentioned, if so, my apologies 😉

I chose this post to stick my 2 cents in coz
my story is similar to the previous poster

I have been round for a long time (zx spectrum)
and apart from one 4 week introductory course, which completely wasted my time, i havent written an exam on anything. Everything i know i
have read on the net or out of a book (approx 80 books on my shelf covering lots of topics, the latest is on Ajax and Ruby)

I currently head up a 4 man development team who
develops call taking and dispatch software for the emergency services

So who would hire me ?

I know i get hired not for my certification
but my passion, knowledge, enthusiasm and willingness to work all hours to get the job done

Maybe thats the difference, not the piece of paper but the person!

ps im hoping to register next year to do my Bsc 🙂

Why Bsc?

In reply to my 2 cents

If things are so good and you dont need a cert why register for a Bsc?

not my first luv

In reply to Why Bsc?

coz business is not my list of favrite things to do 🙁

want to get into research possibly into
AI or gaming or both 😉

Further Question

In reply to not my first luv

…and do you need a cert to get in to these fields??

yup

In reply to Further Question

not the gaming one so much

BUT

they tend to take you a lot more seriously when you apply to do advanced work in AI
when you have the letters Bsc behind your name
and the the odd Dr or two helps also 😉

Why not?

In reply to Why Bsc?

Though formal education isn’t the most important qualification by a long shot, many hiring managers and HR people think it is. As such, it can be difficult to get a job sometimes without a degree, even if you’re the best fit for the job.

Plus, y’know, an enthusiastic, clear-thinking, talented person can get something from a college education, even if most college educated people aren’t enthusiastic, clear-thinking, or talented.

I’m considering pursuing a degree in cognitive science, not because it would magically make me a better worker, but because I’m interested in the field.

That is the reason to take classes…

In reply to Why not?

and learn. All knowledge is valuable regardless how it is acquired. The real reason to study anything is an interest in the topic. Some people need the structure of a classroom, some can just read books, some need to do the work to learn it, or any combination of ways to learn something. The point is, that studying something should be because of interest in the subject.

When I interview for a job and they (HR) discuss my “certs/degrees” I relate it back to why I took the classes/got the cert and how it related to my job. Only my current degree pursuit is not of that category, so I leave it off the resume unless it can be directly tied to the job I am interviewing for. I have told people that I am doing it for me, my pleasure, my curiosity, my opinion. The key in that sentence is learning for the self. Self-growth.

excellent

In reply to That is the reason to take classes…

That’s exactly the sort of college graduate I’d want to hire: someone who graduated from college because he wanted to learn stuff, so he took classes. By the same token, I’d want someone who wanted to learn stuff, so he read books, or wanted to learn stuff, so he set up a network at home with an OS he’d never used before, or wanted to learn stuff, so he started scouring the Web for programming tutorials. The degree or certification itself is almost entirely irrelevant. I don’t want college students: I want autodidacts who may or may not have used college as a tool for learning.

It can actually be more difficult to make sure you’re getting good employees if you’re hiring people with degrees. After all, you have to try to sort for people who got their degrees for the right reasons and with the right enthusiasm.

In fact, sometimes a 4.0 is a sign of someone that didn’t learn as much. I might have gotten an A in a college course that wasn’t really teaching me anything, but not if the coursework was too onerous, for instance. I got good grades in school when the work actually taught me something because, unlike many college students, I went to college to learn — not just to get a better paycheck at the end of the road. That doesn’t mean that a 4.0 GPA is a bad thing — just that even that doesn’t really indicate that the student learned anything. I’ve seen people get excellent grades in classes by cramming and forgetting all the time. What good is it if all they did is memorize the correct answers for the tests without learning how and why they were the correct answers?

This is weird

In reply to excellent

I can read apotheon’s message because I have aptheon as a contact, but when I look at the entire thread on the topic, I cannot see the posting anywhere.

Did we run out of room for the discussion?

This is weird

In reply to excellent

I can read apotheon’s message because I have aptheon as a contact, but when I look at the entire thread on the topic, I cannot see the posting anywhere.

Did we run out of room for the discussion?

Unfortunately that is a discussion on

In reply to excellent

our educational system. I have noticed in schools a move towards memorizing instead of teaching students how to learn. When I was in school we didn’t get answers to questions, instead we were given more questions and showed how to find our own answers. It was learning how to search out answers, how to find the right questions to ask.

As both an IT professional and a college level teacher, I brought real world into my classrooms. Students were never given answers, they were asked more questions to help them discover the answers for themselves. I can’t say how many times I heard students complain about my NOT answering (that is giving them the answers) their questions.

By the end of a semester though, they felt like they really learned something and I still hear from some of them – even years later. I don’t teach anymore, because I wanted to learn and re-emerse myself in IT. I want to help our profession overcome some of the communication and cultural gaps that cause our IT projects to fail. I know that is a lot, but I think IT has a lot to offer, if applied as the tool that it is to business.

No Certs for anything.

In reply to Certification Worth the Paper It is Printed On

From the looks of it everybody thinks certs are useless, Ok, so we have no certs for anything. Driving, IT, Law, Medicine, Flying, Accounting…

Now where are we?

OK experience will always help no matter what the profession (fact of life) but do we not want people to have a foundation understanding first>?

Flying is one thing, See above thread where you are ripped.

In reply to No Certs for anything.

Flying isn’t just handling a joystick, or a wheel or rudder and ailerons, etc.

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=195828&messageID=2034906

You have the attitude problem, Spuddy_m. You want it your way. Guess what? I am glad that you weren’t around 30+ years ago.

Let’s look at one man with higher degrees. Booch is his name

Booch destroyed a great language, ADA. He then got involved with C++. He destroyed C++ too. The market for C++ before Booch got involved with the standards committee was booming. This clown pushes for certs, and writes a book with many errors, and the whole field is destroyed within a couple of years. You sound like Booch.

Be a Bill Steiger. He had PHD in philosophy. He was involved with writing early databases, most of which I’m sure you never heard. He was on the Codasyl DB committee. He pointed out that programming is thought. Codified thought yes, but thought none-the-less. the best requirement for a systems person is one who thinks…

You are now ripped…

In reply to Flying is one thing, See above thread where you are ripped.

So one guy duffs up somthing and suddenly everything is tarred with the same brush. You are no better than a Booch yourself – closed minded to change of any sort.

I’ve got plenty of time left to make my own way in the IT industry thanks. So far I have done fine…

Bill Steiger. He had a PHD. A PHD is a certification is it not?
In fact it’s better than a higher degree – ha!

But, he never had to take a UNI class in CS. He merely taught them…

In reply to You are now ripped…

Bill not only could teach, but do and administrate.

His classes were avoided by people who didn’t want to learn or work. He’d only teach classes in stuff like hashing, index syncing Kernel development and tuning… I met him when I was his caddy, or bodyguard as I was called at Davis Besse nuclear plant where I was developed controls. Since I had done kernel development at SCO, he had me as a guest lecturer on kernel development to his graduate students…

Most of the People teaching CS in 1974 were Ed PHDs or other disciplines. By the way, I consider an MD to be more rigorous than a PHD.

So Spuddy_m would you be happy if I

In reply to You are now ripped…

With 3 PHD’s was to perform [b]Brain Surgery[/b] on you?

Granted not a single one has anything at all to do with Medicine in any practical form but I am a Doctor and have every right to add Dr before my name and several lines of useless letters after it.

Naturally I could cure you because I have done Physics and know at the Quantum Level what is wrong with you so that gives me the ability to do any form of Surgery that you require right? :^0

Col ]:)

No Need

In reply to So Spuddy_m would you be happy if I

No need – “me noggin is sound as a pound”

All I have done is sparked a debate…

Your noggin is rotten.

In reply to No Need

What you did is step on your d**k.

Your ludicrous attack on tjsanko was misconceived. He pointed out that someone whose field of study was philosophy is one of the best in the industry. Your approach to letting people work in IT if they qualify by some paper standard would have kept him out of IT. Good job.

It would also keep out a lot of other innovators, while granting a free pass to idiots like Booch.

Are you cluing in to the point yet?

Spuddy probably never met Booch…

In reply to No Need

I have and ever since that day…

I have long been espousing Booch’s “virtues”.

Col, You would be better…

In reply to So Spuddy_m would you be happy if I

At least more careful, than half the hacks currently in the medical profession. You would at least read the procedure in the PDR before trying or prescribing…

Actually I don’t know why I bother

In reply to Col, You would be better…

This isn’t the first time that the same person has started a thread about exactly the same thing.

I don’t know what his particular hang up is but it’s beginning to get boring now after the same responses as last time. 🙂

Col ]:)

HAL- my apologies for the misthread

In reply to Col, You would be better…

I hadn’t recalled this particular person- only could see that (s)he has had an account for some time.

I have seen some wonderful rationale for continuing to successfully do “business as usual”. If anything, this thread has made me more not less wary of paper-trained individuals.

That is how one trains a dog to not urinate on the carpet, isn’t it? 🙂

Sorry- had to go there…

TT is was some time ago now

In reply to Col, You would be better…

But the same person started effectively the same thread and sounded as bitter as s/he still does.

Back then it sounded as if they missed out on a job because there was some [b]Self Taught[/b] person who fitted the position better or had more experience.

I just take it as this person has done a degree in CS and expects the [b]Big Bucks[/b] without the need to do the [b]Hard Yards[/b] to gain the proper knowledge.

Actually when I was at Uni it was quite common as quite a lot of the Students who did Under Grad Degrees in the Engineering fields thought that they had a God Given Right to a job and [b]Knew It All[/b] when actually that [b]Piece of Paper only gave them the right to go out and start to learn their TRADE![/b]

It’s something that a lot of those who worship schooling fail to see as [b]Important[/b] though I consider it as the most important thing that they can take away from any Higher Education facility.

Many years ago when I was more helpful I used to be a guest speaker at the Local Uni and we had Mech Engineering Students come out and visit our design and production facility where I had to get my hands dirty. On one particular day I was in overalls deep in a transmission when these students walked in with their Professor and one asked quite loudly why some thing was the way that it was so without thinking I just answered the question. The student an Under Grad who had not then finished the course had to put me down as a [b]Fitter Who Knew Nothing so I should be ignored![/b] the next week I was giving a talk about something related to Mech Engineering and it’s the only time that I’ve allowed myself to be introduced by my correct title it was priceless to see the look of horror on this students face when he realised that he had [b]Put Down[/b] the considered [b]Expert[/b] in the field that he wanted to go into. :^0

He thought that he could walk around in a [b]White Lab Coat[/b] and never need to get his hands dirty. It was inconceivable to him that it might be necessary to get his hands dirty at some stage when the fitters had a problem that they couldn’t fix easily with one of his designs. 😀

The very last thing that I said at every one of these Lectures was that the [b]Piece of Paper[/b] that they got when they finished their courses was only good to allow them to go out into the world and start to learn their trade. But then I wasn’t the [b]Typical Mech Engineering Student[/b] either as I skipped most of the lectures and spent most of my time hanging out with the fitters who taught me a lot more than the Professors ever did there. This all came about because at the beginning of the course we had to do a drawing of a assembly [i]Open and In Line for Assembly[/i] and while you could actually draw the parts to the specs it was impossible to assemble them so I changed the drawing so it was possible to actually assemble and was marked down for this and when I insisted that it was perfectly easy to draw but it was impossible to assemble the professor in charge [b]Insisted that it wasn’t a Engineering Problem but Actually a Fitting Problem.[/b] I learnt quite a lot from that one and decided that the Fitters where the ones to learn from and not the so called Professors who knew very little about the [b]Real World.[/b]

Col ]:)

Last I checked

In reply to No Certs for anything.

I was still in a country that didn’t REQUIRE me to spend thousands of dollars to do what I love to do.

We still recognise a few things- not every person capable of going to college has the $$$ or the ability to go. Not everyone who graduates in a field will work their whole llives in that field. Some people are frankly too bright to stomach academia.

It seems to me that you want recognition based on your degree, not your ability. And you seem to be willing to argue that point indefinitely. Why? Are you so lacking that your only salvation is the degree?

I understand that you have put a lot of effort into getting the degree and want it to be recognised. In this industry, it makes only a modicum of difference. There are too many bright, self-taught or industry-taught, non CS degree holders. Many are in this forum.

I was a licensed nurse. I was a pretty good one when I was in practice. I left nursing for a variety of reasons and made a career change. At the time that I did that, I didn’t have the time or flexibility to go back to college. Should I therefore be denied the opportunity to make a living? Should anyone?

IT has regulatory bodies. They define standards. A number of areas have developed Best Practice sets. Business defines their needs and seeks qualified individuals to meet those needs. Why should it be different? And who exactly should be the body that defines the regulations? And what should that process look like? And should it disqualify extremely qualified people without a CS degree? Any degree?

The diversity of arenas in IT will keep IT in general de-regulated (I sincerely hope). I cannot define a single standard that encompasses all disciplines. And I cannot predict the future. I manage to it.

Check Again…

In reply to Last I checked

My ability is not in question. I have been working in IT for 10 years post degree and have done well. I merely want to challenge the status-quo and ask why IT does not have the same accountability and standards as other professions. I’m not saying I am correct but merely challenging the thoughts.

Some people seem to that this the wrong way, but these are the kind of people who I am trying to highlight. Slightly egotistical and self indulgent in what they have achieved without such cert. How is this any different for what you say about me?

Okay

In reply to Check Again…

There is a major difference between the medical profession where inability on any level can cause immense harm or death and an individual’s ability to get the server going again. While I recognise that business finds it a life or death proposition, there isn’t (hopefully) a body count if the server goes down.

As someone pointed out earlier, Lawyers do a lot of clerking before they are able to handle progressively larger responsibilites.

I think that IT is held to a level of accountability. I know that I am personally held accountable if I don’t manage a project properly. I am responsible to the business as well as to my team. I must validate my actions- often to people who aren’t IT savvy so that validation is also a teaching process.

A couple of other points to consider- medicine has grown immensely since the 50s… and the 20s and 30s and… You get where I am going. Continuing Education minimums are required to maintain your licensure and must be fulfilled yearly. When you are selecting a physician, you look for the guy with the most experience in the discipline that meets your needs. You wouldn’t go to an Orthopedist for an Ear/Nose/Throat complaint. That speaks to the individual MDs experience, not just training.

In a similar vein, if you need a Real Estate attorney, you don’t go to a Divorce lawyer.

It seems to me that you identified your primary skill set. I believe that you said that you are in Systems Administration. What I hear people saying is that your degree doesn’t qualify you as a Programming Specialist. But it MAY indeed, taken in conjunction with your experience, mean that you are a fine Sys Admin. And also that there are those who have no degree or a degree in a different discipline have skill in their particular arena.

IT has changed profoundly in the last 20 years. My guess is that it will change profoundly in the next 20. The ability to stay current is going to make the biggest difference for each individual.

Question??

In reply to CAUGHT

Can I ask – out of intrest. Are the people who dismiss certifications and usless the same people who have none?

No they are not

In reply to Question??

Many are like me, got experience, then went and got qualifications and found that I paid good money for what i already knew. I have two IT diplomas and several certificates, a post grad management qual and a number of management certificates – none provided me with any extra information beyond what I had already gained by experience. Just a piece of paper for HR and manegemnt types to tick off on their stupid ‘I don’t know a thing’ checklists.

I have found that when people place heavy reliability on paper qualifications they are usually very short on experience or real working knowledge.

Question??

In reply to No they are not

Did these qualifications open further doors within the IT field – experience aside & experience included?

What if you did the paper qualifications first started in a minor IT role and worked up?

You would then have the paper to back the experience as time goes on.

They shold have but they did not as the local

In reply to Question??

industry had changed around and was no longer interested in IT managers who knew both sides. :p

Ditto

In reply to No they are not

Back when I started there weren’t certifications…

The reason certs became important was the degreed personnel being churned out by the UNIs were so ignorant and six to ten years behind the times…

Tim

I don’t know..

In reply to Question??

Is it possible that people who are concerned with IT professionals without a degree or certs are harboring some resentment?

What makes the difference? Either you can do the job or you can’t, does it really matter how you get there??

I have enough certs to paper several walls.

In reply to Question??

I am an SCO ACE, HP advanced IT professional. I am a Banyan CNE, have old CISCO certs.

I am a certified Fabric professional… I am an AFS (Advanced Fabric Services) certified Professional. Whoop-tee-doo!

I was writing drivers for the M&S Cad-Cam system in 1979. I wrote drivers for SCO. I have tons of Certs.

I think that talent is more important than certs, or UNI education. Certs are above UNI education in my book. Experience and intelligence are more important than all other factors.

Then you may get into the personal issues.

1. Do you fall apart under pressure? If I have the choice, I hire a combat veteran.

2. Can you follow orders and procedures.

3. Can you think on your feet.

I just received the TR email On the Soapbox

In reply to CAUGHT

with a link to this discussion on the top with the title “You shouldn’t hire self-taught IT workers” and a synopsis of your original post. I have a feeling that TR used a little editorial embellishment to catch people’s eyes for this. I did not read that statement in your original post. I have read many of the responses here and it appears that most of the TR members are of the opinion those of us without the certs can be, and in some cases are, more valuable than some of the ones coming in with their pieces of paper.

I don’t know if it is your opinion TR was mirroring or if TR made their own statement in the email they just sent but I am tired of the pompous attitude some people take in trying to pump up their own worth by “looking down on the little people”.

So, TR if you wrote your own title in that post instead of what Spuddy_m actually said then you are guilty of trying to instigate. If you erronously misrepresented what he originally said then I think you need to make a retraction.

Spuddy_m, if you made the statement, “You shouldn’t hire self-taught IT workers” which was in the TR email somewhere else in this Discussion and if you believe that then you are showing how pitifully pompous and irresponsible you are. If you did not then I lay blame squarely on TR.

Not my fault….

In reply to I just received the TR email On the Soapbox

Nothing to do with me!!!

Never stated “You shouldn’t hire self-taught IT workers”, Never!

Thanks for verifying

In reply to Not my fault….

that. Then in that case my comments are directed completely toward Tech Republic.

Hey Old Guy!

In reply to I just received the TR email On the Soapbox

I just checked the email from TR. They quoted spuddy_m exactly from post in the body but added the title. It is my opinion that the title that they used was reasonably garnered from the body of the original post but that is merely my opinion. It was not clear in the begining the point that spuddy_m was moving toward.

It has since become evident that he is arguing for a standards set that would qualify IT personnel, not that a degree should be the only qualifyer.

I can see how TR made such an error.

Hope this helps!

Thanks Ti double grrr errr Two,

In reply to Hey Old Guy!

Spuddy_m verified that in his reply to my post. I really think that TR should make a retraction because in my opinion that is the about the same as sensationalized headlines in some of the newspapers and other publications. It is definitely a possibility that they did not intend for it sound like that but it did and I think it would behoove them to rectify it. The title was very demeaning.

Now, I don’t usually complain about anything the TR folks do but I really think they made a mistake on this one.

Thanks for your clarification as well. 🙂

Hey Old Guy!

In reply to I just received the TR email On the Soapbox

I just checked the email from TR. They quoted spuddy_m exactly from post in the body but added the title. It is my opinion that the title that they used was reasonably garnered from the body of the original post but that is merely my opinion. It was not clear in the begining the point that spuddy_m was moving toward.

It has since become evident that he is arguing for a standards set that would qualify IT personnel, not that a degree should be the only qualifyer.

I can see how TR made such an error.

Hope this helps!

It all depends…

In reply to CAUGHT

I think a combination of education and experience is the perfect blend of a prodessional IT position. But it all depends on the job itself. If its an entry level 1 helpdesk then maybe a self-taught individual is the perfect position for them.

But a position like Business Systems Analysis requires not only experience but also a firm understand of the fundementals of the business world that can only be taught in school.

Disagree ..

In reply to CAUGHT

I’m glad you got some paper behind your name and a few years on your belt. This however should still not give you the edge. There is just too little regulation in the IT Industry.

I have interviewed MCSE’s, MCT’s (even some with experience) for openings in which they couldnt answer questions given to them by NON-Certified techs! To be fair we asked each candidate the same REAL WORLD questions and were totally disappointed. The end result? A man with absolutely NO Certifications whatsoever was able to answer every REAL WORLD question flawlessly.

Dont get on a high horse – the little pony will pass you up…

You are off base.

In reply to CAUGHT

If your thinking was to be followed then you would not have hired Micheal Dell nor Bill Gates. Neither finished college.

More like explorers and oldtime cartographers …

In reply to CAUGHT

… than doctors and lawyers. I mean, c’mon – in the same way as you don’t want a surgeon to say, “hmm, I’ve never tried this before, but I wonder what happens if I plumb the bladder into the brain?” or a lawyer to say “hmm, let’s try a novel defense plea …”, you don’t want a software developer to say, “Whoa, I never came across this exact architecture before! Better stop now”, and so on.

You want a certain amount of creativity and lateral thinking and yes, even risk-taking (so long as it’s tested first). Let’s face it, AJAX and HTML would never have emerged if somebody hadn’t said, “hmmm, I wonder if I can make XML/SGML do this – kind of?”

I am not against certification, but the point must be to get some kind of “joined up training”, not just a piece of paper. I thought the Oracle DBA courses was excellent, but bloody expensive.

Rational experimentation is key. I love those job interviews where you get asked hypothetical architecture/software development questions that make you remember how you did it before, or make you think about how you’d do it in future. 80% of the time, you either hear “yeah, we did it that way”, or “yeah, we were thinking about doing it that way”. The fun ones are when you hit on an idea that they haven’t tried yet – then the job is pretty much yours!

I’m self taught

In reply to CAUGHT

I have a degree in another field, and transitioned to IT as a Project Manager. That is the case with 80% of our department. I’ve found that every single one of those 80% are highly knowledgeable, and some of the most professional people I’ve ever worked with. By working in another field, and transitioning to IT, we bring a set of knowledge that you would not have. We also have been that end user calling IT for assistance, so we have empathy for our end-users and can support them more effectively

If you can perform AND hold down the job, why shouldn’t you be employable?

In reply to CAUGHT

I actually got my start 7 yrs. ago as a Jr. System Administrator (read: PC Builder/Desktop Support) using predominantly self-taught skills.

At the time, all I wanted was to get my foot in the door. I had been going to college for Computer Science, but I knew I could already perform the tasks required of a PC technician — and this was a skill for a full-time job that no college program available to me was teaching back in 1996-1998. Computer Science on the other hand, was teaching me programming languages, and making me work in a UNIX shell without even teaching me anything about UNIX. I wasn’t really interested in programming for a living or using UNIX in my teenage years. However, I knew that a PC Support job would pay better than the $7 I was making in food service, and I knew several people with similar techie/admin type jobs sans college degrees. So I started looking for a job like this myself. I was practically laughed out of mom/pop tech shops in the area. But I wanted to move out on my own as quickly as I could with at least some kind of financial security.

I ended up going to a technical school, that basically charged exorbitant amounts of money to encourage everyone to spend even more money on MCSE certs.

Well, I didn’t get the MCSE, but I sailed through courses on NT Server, Workstation, TCP/IP, etc. and THAT’s how I was able to get a job. Doing what, you ask? Building PC’s. Which this school didn’t teach me.

And as for the skills that this school had taught me? IP subnetting, network planning/design, NT administration, and the like? I wasn’t allowed anywhere near a server unless it was to create a login or deploy a new antivirus pattern file.

Once I managed to land that job, though, I could afford to move out on my own. A few years down the road, I realized I could afford to finish a degree with the company’s reimbursement plan, and began taking advantage of that.

But I wasn’t given a foothold to do the job associated with my self taught skills, until I had paid someone to teach me skills that my employer wouldn’t allow me to use anyway. And then, my job was to do the things that I already knew how to do before taking those networking courses. For me, the whole thing stunk to high heaven like some kind of industry racket.

Sure, I’m getting a degree now, and I think just the fact that I am in the process of taking classes has saved my job more than once, even gotten me promoted. But if I could demonstrate a decent sense of professionalism/work ethic, and proficiency in the tasks that the job requires, why shouldn’t I be considered for the job? Especially in the case of an entry level position?

I’m self taught

In reply to CAUGHT

I didn’t even bother reading half these posts.
I’ve made six figures several times and for my current job I was selected out of 400 applicants.

Self Trained is BETTER

In reply to CAUGHT

When hiring someone with information system skills, there really is a lot to be said for those of us who HAD to teach themselves back in the late ’70s and early ’80s; there were no formalized schools at the time and we had to work directly with vendors (hardware and software) to accomplish our various tasks.

Since a college education didn’t get Spuddy_m any spelling awards, I’m going to conclude that the rest of his curriculum may have been faulty as well. A good degree should require a modicum of command of the english language, or you’re not going to get far with the suits because you can not communicate effectively.

I would put my “self-taught” skills against any one’s BS in Computer Science or an MCSE certification any day. I know who the better employee will be.

A professional does not need formal education, only education that is effective and to the point. I did not immerse myself in the COBOL language and have no intention of ever doing so. Yet, I am still an IT professional providing services that are more and more in demand.

The job should go to the best qualified, not the most formally educated.

Aptitude is everything

In reply to CAUGHT

Aptitude is everything. Kids that have been taking apart hardware and software from the time they are young have an aptitude for IT. They are capable, educatable, and interested. Even if I pay for further education, the self taught are usually a best buy. The biggest problem is keeping them once you’ve provided higher education.

If you know how to study and pass tests, you can get a degree. It doesn’t mean you have the aptitude to do well in IT. The perserverance to complete a degree program is, however, a valuable trait.

Do you know what they call the person who graduates at the bottom of their Med-school class?…….Doctor!

A little of both world

In reply to Aptitude is everything

I have to agree to the point that a self-taught in IT is very common and usefull. You cannot evaluate a person’s skill for what a piece of paper says. However, I think is necessary to have a certain degree of control for whom claim to be in the IT industry. There are a lot of people who claim to be IT experts and they wander around fooling people that definetly don’t have a clue of IT related areas.

I think it should be a little of both world, after all, lawyers, doctors, accountants they do have a body that represent them and also control them, isn’t necessary one for the IT professionals?

Control a mistake

In reply to A little of both world

In my opinion, if you don’t have a clue about IT related areas, you shouldn’t be hiring IT staff. Or, you should at least be consulting with someone who does have a clue.

I also feel that a ‘body that controls’ IT related staffing would be a terrible mistake. IT isn’t like being a doctor or a lawyer. It is very broad and varied. The best IT staff is a mix of field experience, perserverance, quest for answers, and willingness to experiment (and sometimes fail). I don’t necessarily want those qualities in my doctors, thus I want a ‘body that controls’ them.

Look we all have different accomplishments.

In reply to Aptitude is everything

I have been married to the same woman for the last 22 1/2 years. 23 years ago on the 15th we met. That is a bigger accomplishment than all the Degrees in the world…

Having a good marriage and family is more important than this discussion. See Ya later, I gotta take my wifey roller skating.

Silly Boy

In reply to CAUGHT

Your comments are indicative of why a Computer Science degree is a waste of time. What a silly title – what a comment? You may have a chip on your shoulder – you should remove it if you want to progress in your IT career! It also goes to show that you don’t have to be intelligent to earn a degree, particularly in the US.
The fact is that experience is far more important in IT than a degree, and things move SO fast that education programmes simply can’t keep up. I have been in IT for 10 years now, I am a high earner, successful contractor. I am currently working on a long term contract in an important position for one of the biggest and most prestigious IT companies in the world (a US one obviously) and I have a music degree. Shame on me! The title question is a nonsense. For a start – as you progress as a lawyer or doctor your studies at university were always there to build upon, the information didn’t change. In IT, as soon as you leave Uni and enter the real world, what you have been taught is out of date, there is no, or little value to it per se – this perhaps is one of the reasons why IT is still consdidered a trade rather than a profession? It is technical! I don’t know, but it seems to me the idea of your article is simple nonsense – though provocative!

Silly – Do not think so…..

In reply to Silly Boy

Does a silly boy get a 1:1 Honours?

Does a silly boy become an IT Systems Manager?

Does a silly boy get head hunted for his current position?

Does a silly boy earn a nice salary?

Does a silly boy start what could become the longest thread TR history (but then he knew what I was doing)?

IT:

Have the 1’s and 0’s changed in binary recently?

Has logic changed recently (programming constructs)?

Do we still not use IT constructs created in the 70?s and 80?s for diagramming and process control?

Has the microcomputer really changed ‘drastically’ over the last 10 years?

Did the post make you think and create a reply?????

Well?

If you

In reply to Silly – Do not think so…..

have already attained that level of success, why are you so concerned about others? Why does it bother you that others could do the same (maybe better, maybe not quite as good) without the formal training.

Let it go..worry about about yourself and your advancement. Again, what makes the difference? Either you are qualified or you’re not.

BTW..you have a LONG way to go to top the longest thread in TR. You’ll have to bring up evolution or abortion to do that.

Because…

In reply to If you

Without getting the opinions of both camps (sometimes with prompting) you can never fully appreciate spectrum of people?s backgrounds, experiences and views on a subject. Having now read with interest the entire thread (with some parts aside) I now have a better understanding from the other camp.

Ahh..

In reply to Because…

perhaps we shouldn’t be in camps. We’re working toward the same goal. Skillsets are going to be different REGARDLESS of formal training.

We’re in to many ‘camps’ as it is. You know, my staff is mixed, degree/certs/no degree/no certs, and it really doesn’t make any difference. We work together, we help each other out. It’s never been an issue. And it’s never been lorded over anyone (from either ‘camp’)

Camps

In reply to Ahh..

This thread and responses posted proves otherwise!

Proof?

In reply to Camps

Ego issues.

I’m not sure what this thread proves. You can turn nearly any situation into a us vs. them. I’m just wondering WHY. What does it prove? Absolutely nothing.

Interesting point

In reply to Silly Boy

You?ve brought up a couple of interesting points, the first being a degree in something other than computer science and the second being music. Some of the best programmers that I have ever worked with didn?t have degrees in computer science. In fact, one of the best had a bachelors degree in biology which is a major leap. I also remember hearing somewhere that musical skills and programming go hand and hand.

Perhaps being a good developer relies more upon the way that one looks upon the world than the type of education one has. Perhaps if someone is relentless in finding the answers themselves, rather than have it handed to them along with a piece of paper, they will be more able to answer other questions.

I’m 100% self taught

In reply to CAUGHT

I’m 100% self taught and I’m doing pretty well here. I think it’s more important not to hire incompetent people no matter who taught them.

Self Trained

In reply to CAUGHT

Wow, where to start. I would think that the level of expertise required for the position would pretty much dictate how much “school learning” is applicable to qualifying the individual.

I have an electrical engineering background; worked in accounting and office management most of my career (in between raising kids); encountered a non-dos environment (windows) in ’94 and became hooked on PC applications. I’ve even dabbled in a little Linux, but haven’t had time to dabble lately.

Five years ago I began managing a network, core processor and financial platform without ever having looked at a network before. I read, read, read…..network on list serves such as this one….and ask questions. I’m the only IT person and admittedly having the electrical background was beneficial – I think in terms of schematics for network configuration.

So after all this rambling, my point is: the individual drives the competence, not necessarily the academia. The ability to perform the task, gain more knowledge through doing, be supportive and enhance the department’s efficiencies are assets to the organization.

should hire the self taught

In reply to CAUGHT

The only one?s, who think being schooled is better than self taught, are the ignorant and those who went to school, though hard to tell one from the other.

This I believe is in an effort to justify the expense of having gone to school.

I currently make 6 figures annually, not a day in class, just 21 yrs in the business.

I consistently run into degreed IT professionals that believe the only solution for a corrupted OS is to get out the restore cd, and this is only the beginning, of theory
versus real world application.

So keep hunting for your dream job, my degreed friend, after all, we need you intellectuals in the field to keep us from dummying down the industry.

hahahahaha

LOL

In reply to should hire the self taught

Only 10 years well on the way to beating your magic six figures.

Have a great job, thanks all the same you 1st post in months simpleton.

hahahahahahaha

troll

In reply to LOL

You’re a real piece of work.

Is this guy for real???

In reply to CAUGHT

I’m 100% self-taught and have a fairly successful IT career – including a VERY profitable side business. unles those who are “trained” those of us who are self-taught typically have more OTJ training and experience than those who go to school for it. When you go to school, you are forced to think on your feet when something happens. You’re not exposed to the corporate nightmares that IT guys like me experience over and over.

Why should I hire you coming out of school over some guy who’s been busting his ass for 5 years in the workforce?

I’ve been hired because the people I’ve worked with and for were happy with my skills. Why wouldn’t someone hire me if I have the skills and experience to do the job.

Sounds to me you r are bitter because you have a tech degree in hand but can’t find a job.

Real enough for you to reply…

In reply to Is this guy for real???

I bust my ass for 5 years to get the degree, working all hours after classes to fund the process. It’s was not EASY.

I have now worked in corporate IT for about 10 years.

I reap my rewards…..

Now all I ask if this was the correct path?
(see very first post)

All I get in response is “I done this” , “I done that”, “certs are useless”, “you are an idiot”.

Kind of answers my question really….

If that is really what you are asking

In reply to Real enough for you to reply…

Then why the various attacks? I have heard a number of people say “This has been my experience” or “This is what I have learned in my career”. Therefore NOT all you have gotten in response is “I done this”, “I done that”. Yes, there have been some “certs are useless” and “you are an idiot”. I myself said that the professional certification in my particular field is useless. I validated my rationale.

When you post something inflammatory, why the surprise that someone referred to you as an idiot? The flames have gone both ways- you haven’t been shy about attacking others.

I realise that this is a waste of effort- I am certain that you can find another spelling error to criticise- instead of recognising that I have valid points. Seems like troll behavior to me- but that is only my opinion. You are welcome to disagree.

Please…

In reply to If that is really what you are asking

.

My son is currently experiencing this…

In reply to CAUGHT

He is self taught (like myself) and built his first computer at the age of 12 and has done some amazing things since then. He has an A.A. but decided he would stop there because he was tired of school. He works for a company that grossly under pays him and has been a devoted employee for over 2 years and has gotten a whoppin’ .75 cent an hour raise in that time frame. He makes $11.00 an hour as a systems analyst, they provide no health insurance and no sick time…just vacation time which you must take or lose each year.

Since he started there, he has totally automated the company. They used to have to spend ten of thousands of dollars sending people to other states to set up computers in their new stores but now all they do is send a computer with directions on how to connect the cables and when they connect everything and turn it on, a CD boots and loads a script (that he wrote) that “calls back” to the company. He has standarized everything and has written programs, scripts and batch files that make their main computers work more efficiently.

He has been submitting applications for new positions everywhere and has gotten no response. So he called some of the businesses and found that even though they didn’t say that the applicants needed a B.S. they preferred it to experience and since he has experience but only a non-specific Associates degree, it just what they wanted.

So, he has decided to go back to school at the age or 23 because he just can’t get noticed even though he is very smart and talented when it comes to technology (and I am not just saying that because I am his mother!)

I hire people with and without degrees. I have hired some wonderful people with great skills and I have hired (and fired) some losers who were really good at job interviews and that had degrees.

I think that there are more things to consider when filling a job. Just because a person has a B.S. doesn’t make them able to do a job, complete a task, be a devoted employee and play well with others.

Sad…

In reply to My son is currently experiencing this…

I think there’s a level of INsanity this country has reached with regard to college degrees. I think it’s ridiculous that given what your son has accomplished, these companies would rather hire some kid out of college with much less experience simply because they spnt 4 years in school. I’ve known many job seekers in their 20’s and 30’s who’ve faced this invisible wall and the logic (to me) is absurd. At least your kid is young and can afford to go back to school. It’s not as easy when you’re 38 and have a wife and 2 kids.

Honestly, I think once your kid graduates, he should start his own biz and show those who doubted him who the real winner is. Makes sure he gets a combined degree in Business and CS. Good luck to him!!

Thanks for the luck!!!!

In reply to Sad…

He is going to study Business Computer Info Systems. He went to the campus and talked to the dean in charge of the department and he was thrilled to have a student who actually has work experience.

He will be so in debt by the time this is over but at least it is only 2 years and not four since he already has the basics. And he is not asking us for any help since he messed around and wasted $11,000 going to Texas A&M one year and then quit. He feels that he messed up and now it is his turn to pay up. Good thing cause right now we can’t afford to help him either!! But he is good “kid” ok I know young man and he will make it and I know he will be a better student this time. He got one small grant for about $1200 but the rest is on him (loans). But next year at this time he may get more financial help because he is quitting his job and going to work in a warehouse moving stuff part time which pays as much as he is getting now with his current company…

My company forced me to get a BS

In reply to Sad…

It is weird how degrees are seen as a guarantee of knowledge. I had a ton of experience, but my company forced me to get a BS anyway. It turned out to be a good thing, but it was a weird scenario. I was hired by IT from another department that didn’t want to lose my skills. So that department’s manager complained to corporate that I was unqualified for IT (even though the IT manager said I stood out from the other candidates).

The short of it is that everyone in IT was forced to go to school to get a BS, at a cost of around $300,000 to the company. All of us kept our jobs (except those that refused to go to school). Now the BS helps on the r?sum?.

You want a doctor with no experience

In reply to CAUGHT

So, let me ask you this. Do you want a Doctor or lawyer fresh out of school with no experience working for you? I don’t. The difference is that those professions require not only an education but also a period of working under others in the same profession before being “certified”.

Back to us in I/T. Do you want to put in four or more years in college and then PAY someone to work for them for another two to four years until you are certified to work in I/T? I’m sure employers would go for that one. You get to pay them to work for them until someone decides you put in your time and you can finally get paid to work. And if you don’t cut it, then all of your education is for naught…you’re out of here forever!

Even with the schooling and residencies, we can all name examples of doctors that were totally worthless as physicians. Give me an old country doc with years of experience any day, especially in an emergency.

For me…

In reply to You want a doctor with no experience

I will take a cert with years of experience thanks….

Need Entry Requirements

In reply to CAUGHT

Yes, IT should be a professional occupation with entry requirements / regulatory body.

However, let us look back at Doctors and Lawyers. These professions were in place, practiced for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, before we came up with an entry requirement. And at least a hundred years before we came up with a regulatory body. And that is after we have some specialties defined in the professions.

Doctors and Lawyers are a bit easier to deal with, as must people knows what doctors and lawyers do to them personally, and the risk of not having the right person to do the job. You can also know a disasterous result very quickly, just like plumbing and carpentry. That is usually not the case with IT jobs. Most people cannot figure out the difference between a well installed Windows and a poorly installed one. And the consequences takes at least a few weeks to show up.

When the IT profession have that kind of history and public knowledge, we will have the entry requirements and regulatory body. If we rush these, it will be a bigger mess than we have now.

However, employers hiring people can become knowledgeable about IT. They can figure out who is good and who is bad, if they learn.

When I don’t know the person I am interviewing, education and work experience do tell me whether I want to spend time interviewing the person. I will then examine carefully what the person actually did, how he did it, in what kind of management environment, and how much did he actually do. I will also ask a few, very few, important technical questions to see what depth of knowledge the person has in the area I am interested in. I have hired a few good self taught persons that way, and I have seen a lot of bad applicants with very impressive education background.

The best person I have interviewed for IT job requiring a degree in CS was an undergrad in Philosophy. He’s got self taught computer skill to fit into the job I was hiring for. I didn’t hire him because I feel he is over qualified, and can get a much better job in some other capacity.

YES…..

In reply to CAUGHT

One may forget the plight of small companies with their tiny networks. Many owners are self taught themselves. And it is advantagous for them to hire a self taught network guys, likewise it is advantageous to be hired as one as well…. LONG LIVE SELF TAUGHTS..!

PS: The way some lawyers and doctors practice, you may as well have hired a preacher or a witch doctor instead…

Everybody..

In reply to CAUGHT

read my first post again. It does not refer to anybody as idiots, belittle anybody or say that somebody self tought is any less worthy (in fact it commends them).

It is some of the responses to my question that have, at times, been a little harsh. Well I can be just as harsh when dealt such a hand.

All I wanted to know was did people THINK the cert is NEEDED or not and should the CERT be the baseline.

From some of the responses it seems like people would rather wipe parts of their anatomy with the cert.

Anyway – cert aside (soiled now) – I have this holy grail of experience yet people keep questioning this, my mind, logic & reasoning. I can prove my mind is capable – it has been tested over and over without failure. Can these people also PROVE such a fact?

Narrow Views

In reply to CAUGHT

I would agree that those who have experience and an undergraduate degree in IT should make a better employee over the long haul. This is true not just because they have a degree in IT but because they have an undergraduate degree. The hidden secret of an undergraduate degree is not reconginized by most students. The secret is that successful students have employed a methodology of learnining, teaching, and thinking. The rest is just a basis to start from in their field of study.

Or, the ability to focus on a goal…

In reply to Narrow Views

Or, conversely not to get hung up on the little indignities of acedemia, and the acedemics.

The biggest benefit is that it displays…

In reply to Narrow Views

Or, the ability to focus on a long term goal…

Or, conversely not to get hung up on the little indignities of acedemia, and the acedemics. That is good for dealing with non-techie managers…

Spuddy_M?s Final Word?

In reply to CAUGHT

Lively was it not?

My opinions were and still are 100% valid. I have the right to express any opinion just as you have the right to disagree. It is however not within your rights to question my personal character.

I am slightly ashamed to be connected by profession (thankfully) to some of the particents within this forum. I hope that such people do not live out their daily existence with such hatred towards others who differ in opinion.

Thanks also for the insights. They will go down well when I get around to using them.

Prosper in your jobs, for I have the answers I was looking for?have you?

– Caveo Contabesco Operis Vita –

So my friend

In reply to Spuddy_M?s Final Word?

What did you pick up this time that you missed last time you broached this subject here?

The responses look about the same to me as they did the last time you brought up this subject with no definitive answers to the questions posed.

Col

Well…

In reply to So my friend

It seems the majority of self taught have some kind of superiority complex over those who have been taught. The fact that they did it themselves automatically makes them superior in some manner. Why else belittle something they have no experience of themselves.

Only about 30% of people who start a CS degree finish it, why do you think that is?

They say they got fed up ? I say they could not see something through to its goal. What does this show?

There is no doubt that relevant experience will help get any job. However take two equally experienced people; one with paper, one without, the papered person will no doubt win.

There is value in self teaching ? I did not learn everything I know from a course. My foundations were built on the course. I can prove my foundations are solid and my self teaching is good. A win-win scenario.

I am questioned because I chose to obtain a degree first and then start. My choice. Now I see people moaning because they are being sent to get such degree or are having trouble. Does this not identify something?

People say what about person X who was self taught. Person X was a trailblazer in a new field, not an established field. This was in the past ? I was talking now and to the future. You can?t regulate or certify something before it truly exists

It is clear the industry is too young for regulation. It will come eventually but not in our working life. It has happed to other industries and will happen to ours.

Well Col..

In reply to So my friend

if nothing else, he has proven that he can be offended and condescending at the same time. And that’s a skill you just CAN’T learn in a classroom.

I don’t know about that Mae

In reply to Well Col..

Many years ago I was Offended by a Undergrad in Mech Engineering and when I gave a Lecture a week latter I was very condescending in that class. Only time I’ve ever allowed myself to be addressed by my proper title outside of the Legal System. 🙂

But I taught him not to take things by appearances as they might not always be as he saw them. That Dirty Fitter covered in Transmission Oil was the same person who about 1 week latter walked into a lecture to give a talk on [b]Real World[/b] implementations of what it was that they where supposed to be learning. :^0

Col ]:)

I CAN question your character

In reply to Spuddy_M?s Final Word?

Your opinion is 100% YOURS. Validity is in the eye of the beholder, after they have had an opportunity to validate your evidence.

I may be wrong, but free speech ALLOWS me to question your character. Just as you have the right to question mine.

You are a poor example of what I see the profession to be- you are smug and self serving. I would not tolerate you. It is likely good for you that your superiors DO choose to tolerate you. Fortunately my peers are made of finer stuff than yourself. They are hard working and focused in future goals. You seem to be focused on how hard it has been for you.

In IT- it is also your ability to play well with others that gets you where you want to go- assuming that you don’t care to go down the nearest toilet. In this business, you must not only be very good technically, you must communicate well with others from a variety of perspectives.

Fear not- you are not connected by profession to this collection of bright, innovative and functional people. When you spew hate- as you have done, fail to communicate effectively- as you have done, and generally stir the pot… it is likely that you will see responses you do not like.

Get your nose out of the air. If it rains you’ll drowned

In reply to CAUGHT

I’ve been in the industry going on 16 years now, as a “self taught”… Oh I’ve been to schools and seminars but I have no degree. I climbed my way up the ladder. For years I had guys straight out of collage get hired above me that I had to teach everything to because what they taught in the class rooms was already twice outdated in the field. You did it your way; got more money out of the box for it and now you’ve earned your do’s. I did it my way had to work harder to get where I am for it, but I to have earned my do’s. For you to imply that you are somehow better than me, only because you posses a piece of paper on a wall not only is extremely arrogant, it’s insulting.

Dont get it?

In reply to Get your nose out of the air. If it rains you’ll drowned

Where does it say all that??
You are reading what you want to read – hence some of my points.

That piece of paper (as you call it) is 5 years hard work. I find that an insulting description of effort.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you a troll

In reply to CAUGHT

HAL noted that this individual had done this once before. Interesting as he refused to reply to posts that challenged his so-called intellect and went instead for those he could flame and those he could incite.

I am ashamed to admit that he sucked me in too. I believed that this was an honest question being posed by an honest individual- with bad grammar and poor communication skills.

I truly don’t care how many “points” he has garnered- the discussions that I read tells me that the point system is in deep dark do-do anyway. And frankly I don’t care how long he has been a member. This effort- in his own words- was a trolling effort to find out what he could steal from the intellect of honest folk.

While I have enjoyed the intellectual exercise, unless this individual has managed to pervert TR, he has done nothing but put fodder out there for the more intellegent to weigh in on.

I have to wonder what it will buy you, troll boy…

NOT SO…

In reply to Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you a troll

Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer’s motives that may be incorrect. Regardless of the writer’s motives, controversial posts are likely to attract a corrective, patronizing or outraged response by those who do not distinguish between real physical community (where people are actually exposed to some shared risk of bodily harm by their actions), and epistemic community (based on a mere exchange of words and ideas). Customs of discourse, or etiquette, originating in physical communities are often applied naively to online discourse by newcomers who are not used to the range of views expressed online, often anonymously. Hence, both users and posts are commonly, and sometimes inaccurately, labelled as trolls when their content upsets people ? ironically, the accusatory labeling of a troll may be more disruptive than the original alleged offense itself. Also, people may be more inclined to use epithets like troll in online public discussion than they would be in person, because online forums may seem more impersonal.

Oops

In reply to NOT SO…

Sorry

Rob

Oops 2nd

In reply to NOT SO…

Sorry 2

Rob

Oops the 3th

In reply to NOT SO…

Sorry,

but you know what they say, all good things come by 3. 🙂

Rob

If not so

In reply to NOT SO…

Why does the so called “troll” do not go into a more intellectual discussion but stay’s more on the remark-side of discussions. Which is more flaming to flame as to making a point of view (opinion) clear to others at special to the person he/she is making remarks to.

Is it because he/she has no opinion ??? Or is it because he/she is afraid that if his/her opinion is known to others he/she will be the object being flamed at?
Or is it because he/she is a troll who just wants to insult others.

To me someone who only makes remarks with out any opinion what-so-ever is a troll. As making remarks with out content is just flaming to flame! Which is despicable to me.

Rob

Superior?

In reply to NOT SO…

Yesterday you said that you were putting in your final word, you just can?t leave it alone, can you?

While I do have a degree in computer science it really doesn?t count for very much. All that a degree shows is that I had the time and money to sit in a classroom listening to professors. Yes, I did learn something, I learned how to learn and I learned that we learn by doing. It is what we accomplish ourselves that teach us more than any class can.

After all, didn?t the wizard say that the only thing that others had that the scarecrow lacked was a piece of paper saying what he knew? Well, there are a lot of people out there with pieces of that lack the wisdom of the scarecrow, spending all of their time looking for reasons to feel superior. Having failed with this line of reasoning what?s your next line of reasoning, religion, skin color or nationality?

You’re absolutely right.

In reply to NOT SO…

Everything you said in that paragraph of discussion of online communities is correct. None of it changes the fact that [b]you are a troll[/b], however.

TiggerTwo has you pegged.

Apothenon

In reply to You’re absolutely right.

This troll had my ID most of the day. I exposed that in a variety of places, including here. He had my name for awhile but not my ribbon.

I think that he will reappear. I think he already has- a post from “Messaging Guy” gives me this impression. I truly dislike spammers. You would think that they would have something better to do.

I, like JD, think that this thread should go to Silicon H3ll. I will miss all of the good input but think that this has all been bourne of a spammer.

I’m not feeling good about any of this. Did I say or do anything to incite it?

Tig2

In reply to Apothenon

You are blameless. If anything I incited him by explaining that Booches and their ilk are the problem, and that Bill Steiger only taught IT classes. I did flame him also about his ignorance in aviation.

He was lucky I have no clue to his identity, as I am a vindictive, nasty, male sort, and would defend your honor… Especially on an idiot.

I am not entirely blameless

In reply to Tig2

I called him a troll.

I called out that his father might have a clue but as a passenger, he is clueless.

I likened his degree to paper training a puppy.

I am a bad Tig2.

He should not say idiot things where there are intellegent people to refute him. He should not flame the intellegent for BEING intellegent.

As long as he isn’t using my name AND ribbon, I am over it. And if I find that he is using both, I WILL find the SOB and tell you where he is.

I am the vindictive, nasty, FEMALE sort and would love to have you with me. “Spud-boy” might want to keep that in mind..

Don’t be so quick to accept blame.

In reply to I am not entirely blameless

Nobody is to blame for a troll being a troll, except the troll. He’s responsible for his own behavior: his transgressions are his fault, and his alone. Nothing either of you did justifies his asinine actions, and both of you said what you did only in response to some monumental blunders from him.

Dismiss him as the gnat he is. He’s not worth your angst.

What are you really talking about?

In reply to CAUGHT

I guess you’re talking about people with high school diplomas as opposed to a college degree?

I’m not so sure which way to come down. I think I learned some valuable skills getting my computer science degree, but I’ve seen people without that credential have more success than me and make more money. So are they better off? Are they better than me? I dunno. I think it’s 6 of one, half-dozen of the other. I think self-taught is an apt description for them, but they have some skills I don’t. I may have skills that they don’t. Both of us are valuable to some extent.

I consider myself self-trained in large part. I tend to not take technical courses through private firms. The programming courses at the local community college are like grammar school to me now. I prefer to sit down with a good technical book, try out some new techniques in a project that I make up, and develop my knowledge that way. I have the degree, but after that, I’m self-taught. I’ve never worked in a software team where the team members were unhappy with my skill level or dedication to getting the job done. I think those are the qualities that count, no matter how you get them.

Sorry had to roll on my back laughing

In reply to CAUGHT

Only a real money maker would compare doctors and IT people.
Self Trained has several big advantage compared to educated…they take a great interrest in what they do and there knowlegede is much weider..they solve problems faster and they are most offen lower paid.
Educated has no knowledede about things they have not read about and they think they know everything.

I would at any time hire a self trained before I hire a educated.

My 2 Cents

In reply to CAUGHT

I?ve been working in IT now for almost ten years. I never had any formal schooling and everything I?ve learned has been on the job or playing around at home.

In my previous position I was an Assistant Manager and had to hire people to fill PC Tech positions. Personally I?ve found that having a degree and not having one makes no difference. Most Collages and Tech Collages teach theory and terminology. Don?t get me wrong these are good things to learn but in my opinion there is nothing like real world experience. I remember one guy that I hired. He was right out of a two year Tech Collage with a brand new two year degree. This guy had tons of book knowledge but had zero common sense and troubleshooting skills. Needless to say we had to let him go after a few months because he just didn?t get it. I still say the real world is where you are going to learn from, not a class room. Also most classes at Collages are a year to two years behind the current Tech. What good does it for me to learn about an OS or Application that is out of date? Granted some principles carry over but most tech just goes away.

Give me an employee that has a good head there shoulders and two years of real world experience and I?d bet that person would out perform a person straight out of school with a two year degree.

Hmmm..

In reply to My 2 Cents

Thanks for killing the rest of us who didn’t goto “Collage”… Look…. over “their”!!!!! Not to be confused with “There”…

Give Me a Break

In reply to Hmmm..

Oh I?m sorry for not being grammatically correct. I guess da spell checkin don?t always work so well.

Correct Person

In reply to CAUGHT

What difference does this make in real world situation? So long as the correct candidate is found?

It is all ego

In reply to Correct Person

The self-taught will cry that is the best way, because it is what they did and where it got them.

The formally trained will turn around and say that THEIR way was best, and look at how grand they are?

Both arguments are for complete morons, to not think that both offer advantages, and in the current market, you need every advantage you can get.

[b]Note: what is with FAKE-Tigger Two? Copying others to try to validate your own miserable existence?

X-(

I do hope you understand how ridiculous this is

In reply to CAUGHT

Using my name simply tells me that you respect my superior yet un-degreed mind over your own. Although why you think it is better to be known as a one breasted cancer survivor is beyond me- there really are things you can’t fake!

If I thought you were sad before, my opinion of you has managed to sink.

This has got to go down as one of the lamest efforts ever- my peers know me and my reputation- as well as my superior grammar. They won’t be fooled and you have simply managed to make yourself look foolish.

Go away troll, or I shall replace you with a very small shell script!

Edited for typo. Don’t want to be mistaken for troll-boy!

[i]There is a real TiggerTwo and a phoney Tigger Two; note the space. X-(

In reply to I do hope you understand how ridiculous this is

The phoney Tigger Two is just that; a 100% complete grade A phoney and a complete a$$hole as well. Is it really any wonder that nobody chooses to hire this clown; he can’t do anything worthwhile and is now trying to hitch a ride on somebody elses coattails. X-(

This ass should be kicked off TR for pulling this stunt. There is no room here for this type of individual. TiggerTwo, the real one, shouldn’t be forced to tolerate this punk. X-(

Whatever he chooses to call himself, he can’t disguise the fact that he is an a$$hole and a troll, to boot. He’s going to be puking and spewing his garbage around here for some time to come, this sort of jerk always does, especially if we continue to tolerate him and respond to his asinine comments. He sought to determine how low you can go; well take a good hard look at this jerk; that’s how low you can go. X-(

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:) X-(

Well FAKE-Tigger Two

In reply to CAUGHT

what is your point of copying the ID of another member?

Do you hope people will mistake you for someone smarter than yourself?

Do you hope some people might like you if they don’t realize it is you?

Why would you intentionally want to be mistaken like this?

Makes us wonder about you and your intentions.

Troll?

Please Note

In reply to CAUGHT

The individual who thought trolling was fun has now completely removed his initial post and changed his name yet again. I haven’t read through the thread to determine if he is now removing ALL of his content, but I would not be surprised.

Dr. Jones? I think not.

holy cow

In reply to Please Note

I completely missed the [b]Tigger Two[/b] thing. I was looking at the name [b]Spuddy_M[/b], then next time I was online it was [b]Dr. Jones[/b]. Now that I’m up to speed on what happened, I’ve gotta say:

Yikes, what a troll! From past experience with a troll using the name “apothoen” in imitation of me at another venue, I can sympathize.

Thanks Apoth

In reply to holy cow

I have gotten good support from the poeple who ARE my peers.

The hard part was having that cr@p over MY name.
I think that I did the right things.

I hope that person gets his a$$ handed to him- especially when he is caught out not having the intellect to do his job and uses one of my comments!

Maybe the one where I compare his diploma to newspaper used to traan a puppy where not to “go”…

I am SO rotteen!

Name suggestion for Spuddy_M

In reply to Please Note

Spuddy_M should just change his/her name to Rectal_Flamb? and be done with it. Just think of it as truth in advertising.

Ed

In reply to Name suggestion for Spuddy_M

Some days I just love you.

Idiot Boy has been re-born… again.

I am SO weary of this! I want him to go away and he just won’t.

I really do not like idiots…

What a complete loser

In reply to CAUGHT

The sex change must have gone horribly wrong, so instead of turning into a woman, It is now DR. Jones. What a pathetic excuse of a poster.

Time for TR to pull the discussion.

AMEN

In reply to What a complete loser

While there were some really good discussion points here- when Spud-boy wasn’t looking- I agree. This one should just “slowly and softly vanish away”.

Pathetic wasn’t the first word that came to mind. But it was the first one I could post!

This “discussion” must have really cooled off

In reply to AMEN

because it is no longer in the HOT DISCUSSION list, let alone at the top like it was this morning.

Attably TR guys in axing this.

Wow, now, what was that all about????

In reply to This “discussion” must have really cooled off

Sorry, the World Cup thing has been keeping me occupied. Just what was that, that got everybody all fired up? Geeze, watch some soccer, and all heck breaks loose :^0 Wasn’t this that Id0t that pulled this before? He said he was going to come back. Now I see it’s trying to eat it’s post, and now I’ll never know what it was that got every-one fired up :_| Oh-well the World Cup is better anyway 😉 (& safe, so far)

what it is all about

In reply to Wow, now, what was that all about????

the dumbass that started this post decided to change his alias to “Tigger Two”. After a few posts went up, and people became aware that this was his virtual impression of wearing womens cloths, he changed the alias again, and then edited the original post.

TR then went and pulled it out of the number one slot for HOT discussions.

Tig also has a few new discussions around TR discussing this very thing. watch for cheap immitations or something along the lines of that.

Now go back to your game. 😀

yeah

In reply to what it is all about

what he said….. :p

Now be nice Tig

In reply to AMEN

You really can not blame Spuddy it’s was the [b]Hormones[/b] that where being injected into him that made him act this way. :^0

I believe that the surgical team got the Breasts right but needed to remove the head to get them to look [i][b]Prefect.[/i][/b] :0

Anyway hopefully that will be the last that we see of this clown. Now it’s taken on the Alias of a well known film archaeologist who this time will not escape the [b]Temple of Doom.[/b] 😀

Col ]:)

[i]Edit[/i] Well at least that was the name showing when I made this posting now it’s changed again.

Tig have you applied that [b]Shell Script[/b] to change the posters Alias on an irregular interval? 🙂

Alas, HAL

In reply to Now be nice Tig

I could not link it to the @##%&*$ that we are discussing.

I am not one to ban a peer. I just don’t thisnk this twit is a peer. Just a sh!thead.

I try to not take it personally. Really. Right now it is hard. I will deal with it.

Well Well Well, Self Trained ??

In reply to CAUGHT

The original post is edited and vanished in to thin air.

Rob

ps I could edit the sub-thread again that got all my nice mailings to the count of 4. 🙂

[i]edited to add the ps[/i]

Look Again Rob ;)

In reply to Well Well Well, Self Trained ??

NT

Better Look again….

In reply to Well Well Well, Self Trained ??

Don’t be so sure, It’s still alive (what ever it was)

Yeah, It’s still here

In reply to Better Look again….

I truly dislike this smeghead but it won’t go away.

It now thinks that editing its post so that it looks like a new user has been spamming is going to keep it safe. It is wrong. It will never get its time back- evenn if it perverted Tech QA to give its points (ill gotten gain?) to “zeroone” who will also likely change its name.

I really do not like idiots…

It is and the writer of it to :(

In reply to Yeah, It’s still here

And right you are TT. Smugs like that I can miss like toothache

[i]btw I’m not having a toothache, so may be the 1d1ot is gone to 🙂 That would be so nice[/i]

Rob

Eh?

In reply to CAUGHT

What is this all about?
It is like a battlefield after the war.

Well, yeah… kind of

In reply to Eh?

The “member” that started this is now trolling TR with a different name. But attacked others in the fray. HOpe he is getting a BIG thrill out of attacking others.

I really do not like trolls or spammers…

Techmail, disregard this discussion

In reply to Eh?

The original poster has gone back and changed the initial post several times, so the whole thing is meaningless now.

This is not represenative of the most of TR or their members.

“move along people, nothing to see here” – officer barbrady

[i]Things that make you go, hmmmm!!! Check the date of Techmail’s account.

In reply to Techmail, disregard this discussion

Is Techmail for real or just another manifestation of all the other posts by this troll??? Let’s just watch out for now. Unless I can be certain, I am not going to be replying to any newbie with an account dated June 2006, for quite a while.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

What do you mean?

In reply to [i]Things that make you go, hmmmm!!! Check the date of Techmail’s account.

you just need to be more trusting! 😀

You can trust;me I insist upon cash; no checks, no credit cards, just cash.

In reply to What do you mean?

And while we’re here and on the subject stop the silliness and go back to your proper account and alias. There’s been way too much of this crap lately and at first I didn’t realize it was you; so I dropped a dime to Jay and Smorty about the fradulent aliases of Faketiggerthree and Just Fake. You should have warned me ahead of time. Now Smorty and Jay are PO’d about this and I have to email them back that certain aliases were just somebody making a display of humour in poor taste.

TiggerTwo has emailed more forcefully than I did. She really did get ripped off in a real instance of identity theft and is understandably really upset by this whole episode. Shame on you; now go stand in the corner or something. Another apology to Tig wouldn’t exactly be out of place right now, especially seeing as you are still pursuing this type of nonsense. I expected better from you.

BTW, I’m ashamed to admit I once did something like this too. I had two phoney accounts and ran my own private little flame war with lots of people jumping in and taking sides. It was fun for a while but it quickly grew tiresome. If I remeber correctly the thread gathered over two hundred posts based on nothing but hot air. I haven’t done anything like it since.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

sleepin’dawg

In reply to [i]Things that make you go, hmmmm!!! Check the date of Techmail’s account.

One to avoid I guess…

[i]There appears to be something quite bogus about this.

In reply to CAUGHT

A web server with cookies, auto login or otherwise??? Give me a break. If this is in anyway true; posting the location, address and name of the company as well as the name and phone number of the IT manager as well as his email address, might, mind you only might, serve to assuage my cynicism. Until I see that, I’m not believing a word of this nonsense and I don’t think anyone else should either.

BTW, has anyone noticed that [b]E=[/b] has now become zeroone. Also notice [b]his[/b] Q&A points have disappered, again.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

geeeze, who….

In reply to [i]There appears to be something quite bogus about this.

let the kids in????? (and no, I’m not talking about talented young people either)

Dawg it might be slightly more believable if

In reply to [i]There appears to be something quite bogus about this.

The good old Spuddy M had not of started the exact same post about 18 months or so ago. Now lets see a person on [b]Work Experience[/b] having access to the same account 18 months or so apart I suppose that it’s possible but not overly likely.

Sounds much more like a college kid trying to justify their existence after not passing an exam or something similar. 😀

But maybe I’m just CYNICAL. :^0

Col ]:)

I’m a cynic; nothing wrong with that. You may be …………………….

In reply to Dawg it might be slightly more believable if

Crazier than a bed bug but you are certainly not stupid. Smart peole are cynical; stupid people aren’t. Be proud of being a cynic!

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

Multiple accounts….

In reply to [i]There appears to be something quite bogus about this.

Also notice how zeroone picked up a few points from ‘Account Deleted’ for answering nonsense questions like ‘lib db how many people on the bus’, ’24’. Correct, have some points!!!!!

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6239-0.html?forumID=51&threadID=196184

Also, Account deleted now has a question open offering 3000 pts.

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-11186-0.html?forumID=72&threadID=196278

My guess is the account that picks them up belongs to the person who holds Account Deleted and Zeroone.

They have changed their name again

In reply to Multiple accounts….

This time calling them self [b]Hope 2006[/b] and are using TiggersTwo Pink Ribbon.

I think that someone is going to get a real serve from Tigger over this one as she will be quite rightly [b]Miffed.[/b]

Col

You would be wrong

In reply to Multiple accounts….

For some twisted reason, I ended up with them. I have notified TR that there is something bad going on here.

All I can do outside of going away.

I hate stupid people. They should be required to carry a sign… Bill Engval

Maybe realised……

In reply to Multiple accounts….

….that the game was up? Or intended to place the blame on Tigger Two, who knows.

P.S. Apologies if anyone read this post before I changed it.

The only good thing here

In reply to CAUGHT

Is that by using my ribbon, you are hopefully raising awareness of a disease that KILLS.

That you are a wastrel smeghead that needs a grip followed shortly by a clue is evident.

You have not done one F-ing thing to pull your uneducated, brainless head out of your collective- as the members of this board will attest.

I personally will do whatever I can to insure that you are booted into another arena… might I suggest myspace or something equally infantile?

You will NOT win. I have battled cancer you lowlife piece of excrement. I will win this too.

For some reason

In reply to CAUGHT

This thread has been truncated. Can this smegger actually impact TR? Or is this just a new vision of some of the issues that TR is fighting through?

To say again- if this smegger is about raising breast cancer awareness, it might be hlpful if he/she/it could prononce the words.

This is Identity theft. While I won’t be prohibited from buying a house over it, it is identity thef all the same. I hope this loser is consigned to siliconhell where he belongs.

[Author]

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