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Death

By justathought ·
I would be interested and appreciate your views on death, the questions it brings into our life, the way it changes our world.

How does it affect the idea of our own mortality?

How does it alter our priorities and values in life?

The impact on our spirituality, for those who hold beliefs?

how does it affect our own "personal" identity?

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Interesting You asked This

by domiles In reply to Interesting that you ask ...

Your depression makes me very sad for you and brings back many memories of all the years of damage done to my husband by his mother's suicide.
He in turn took his own life and left two children who in turn have had terrible problems because of that! Life is worth living if you find one reason to smile a day, have a good laugh once in a while at get hugs and occasional kind words from your children.
Every day is a battle for me to stay alive but I will keep going and going until I no longer am productive. I can not work but I find things to do that will help others. I rebuilt an old computer for about $100 to provide one to the neighbor kids who would never be able to afford one other wise. I operate a not for profit web site to help people not get scammed on the internet. I edit books for fledging writers who can not get an editor because they are unknowns.
I provide counseling for people who are not aware that I am even doing it - strangers and friends with a gentle touch, an encouraging word or just listening to them vent.
I work on my family's genealogy to leave something behind for future generations. I read (everything I can get my hands on) and knit and crochet afghans and hats and sweaters for the poor elderly who have no one to do those things for them.
I am pretty much house bound because of my health problems now but every day offers something to learn and the opportunity to give.
Learning how not to work 80 hours a week at top speed was the biggest adjustment to my illness and I was depressed, a stranger I met on line while looking for a place to do psychic readings for others let me vent, gave me contact with the outside world and things to do to keep my mind active and growing. Being and feeling productive is the key to enjoying life and as long as I can do both, I will and treasure each new lesson I can share with others.
The stress of your legal problems is a major factor in your depression I am sure. But you can do nothing about them, let God and your attorney handle them. You focus on what you can do. As you feel lees stressed and happier, I bet you will have a lot better chance at finding employment. If you get bored, you can work on the Vosburgh genealogy in the Netherlands for me!
My problem with being so close to death is all the things I would like to accomplish for others so I would be glad to share my list with you to help fill you time and get you growing and enjoying again.
That you are taking your meds is a good sign. Believe me living takes a lot more courage than taking your own life. But the rewards are fantastic if you just jump in and live!
Blessings and joy to you for the New Year
Diane

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It is certainly a fight

by justathought In reply to Interesting You asked Thi ...

I will agree with you, choosing life takes a lot of courage when things fall apart around us, and fighting to try and live is very exhausting but in the end there are still wonders to discover.

A year ago I could not even see any future and just making it through the day was such a struggle, but now I can in betweens the bad times find meaning to life.

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I can relate, but you nust keep fighting

by justathought In reply to Interesting that you ask ...

Dear Frehen

I can relate so much to your situation, I asked those questions as a year ago I lost my husband to cancer,
Grief is so exhausting that there are times when like yourself I thought what is the point, I came close to giving up as you did.

You are right, talking about it does help, it is not easy for when crisis strikes into someone's life we gain friends and lose some, people do not want to hear how we truly feel, I was supported by people I never met excepted in cyber space and they have achieved a miracle, some supported me through the night in grief chat rooms,or writting emails, and we even managed to reach each other by phone.

I live in Australia but came from France and my cyber friends mostly from the USA would ring me and they kept me whole.

What I have learned is that we become more comfortable with our grief as time goes by, we will never forget how could we? however we must go forwards, we must hold some hope in our heart, sure the waves of despair come out of nowhere, we have our moments but we also can embrace life in between, we must survive.

I feel for you for a divorce is also a grief, a lost but you have 2 children and for them you must fight to live, for me well I have no human family but I have four dogs and strange as it may sounds to some, they are keeping me going.

I wish that you will be able to come to find some harmony in your life and you can come to some arrangement that will suit you your ex-wife and the children

Wishing you well

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opening up

by frehen In reply to I can relate, but you nus ...

Ray, Diane, justathought... thanks!!

Forgive me for opening up and tell some more. I got into writing and found this had become quite some text.. bare with me for that.

But I really mean thanks. Thanks for all the kind words... thanks for all the motivating talk.
I guess it's a start. Hope to hear more of you guys and dolls, cause I really need it. Need to contact and talk about this, as I said, i think it is good. It's so good of you justathought to start this topic. In my situation I could not resist to react, and what I find is being heard and being cared about, even when I don't know you all. That's nice and feel terribly good. So thanks for that too.

Then somewhat personally. Ray. I admire your way of handling things. Hoping I will be able to handle it that way. Looks good. Not ready for it yet at the moment, but certainly willing to get there. thanks for your advise. Btw, can't quitte smoking either and costing me a fortune and does not bring me any good.. just can't...like it too much.

Some addition; I divorced in '92 after almost 12,5 years of marriage. We broke up being friends, although hartbroken and were both willing to raise our 2 children in the best way we could after divorce. It wasn't easy I can say, cause she moved to another town with her new husband, which reulted in a lawsuit in '96. I was convicted to paying and fetch my children at the new place, which was so unfair... anyhow. Now that I am unemployed for 4 years and am not able anymore to contribute in the welfare of my children, she is demanding lots of money. She's going to far now and I have to make it stop. My children, bless their souls, are with me, not that I want this, but they fully understand my situation and don't understand their mother's actions. It pleases me and yes Diane, I have to leave it to god and my attorney to solve this matter.

Y'all know what my problem really is? I can't park my problems. I have a parking problem (as all my brother's and 1 sister have that btw) It means that when situations occur, in my case one after the other, I cannot be in controll anymore. I cannot park my problems, giving it out of hands, I still want to controll and handle it. So, my mind flipps and loses it cause it just gets overwhelmed with all of it, cannot cope. If I could just park it and leave it to be and would be able to trust the fact that there's nothing I can do more on it, it would be better. I am going to get... for four months now trying at least, get some psychological help in training to get there. It's a process where lots goes wrong... talked to several psychiatrists, but they only provide me with pills. I need methods to be able to handle things. Well, something is going to happen on that field soon i hope.

Again an addition: Lost my oldest brother in 2003. Strangely enough I forgot to mention him in my first reply to this topic. My view on the matter is that he drank himself to death. Still, also I consider he must have had the same probs as I and my relatives have. We come from a family that has a very complicated way of connecting, relating to each other. Many disputes have filled our lives. We all went from home living elswhere with fighting. Fighting loose from our parents. we all understand they did their best, but we are not thankfull of the way they did it.

So that's history. Now for the present. Well, you know about my nephew John. Spoke to him last summer on a reunion of the family and he was full of plans and, as I saw it, enjoying life. So it's such a big mystery why he took his own life.

My mother is 80 years old. As I am the son who lives nearby (my sister is living more close to her, but she cannot handle serious matter at all....) I am convicted in taking care of her. It brings lot of troubles and care. I feel the responsibility and am willing to take it. on the other hand I hate it, cause sometimes it's to much to bear. Cause she is chaotic, does not trust me in the things I do for her, cause she does not understand all of it anymore... just getting old. I cannot blame her for that but it makes it so hard to motivate myself to do it. Still I have to and ... well I have to.

Financial problems. Of course I have a dark view on the future for employment. I am trying now to start a businesss of my own, but it seems all works against me in getting there. Things seem to go the right way and then another thing posp up which makes it impossible. Well, hopes are there I can reach my goal...

Damage to my car. First of all, I can't really aford to have one, but now there's some guy which damaged my car and is not willing to pay for it, nor would he report it to his own insurrancecaompany. So I am stuck with a debt to a garage who fixed the problem and wants me to pay them almost 1400 euro's. Can't pay it.

The lawsuit to my ex. She laughs at my children when they try to defend my situation. She says to my daughter that she will get all she can get her hands on... it hurts. Buw well, we know how these things go, just mention it, cause it hurts and I cannot park this either.... it eats me up.

As does writing this down... so I stop for now. After I have said the following:

I read it takes a lot of courage to live your life. Thsi could indicate that one is a coward when taking his own life. I do not share this thought. It also takes courage to take your life... caus I don't have it. There's no cowardness (if that is correct spelling) however in taking your own life. It is my believe that depression and life-problems, and being alone as my nephew John, can bring someone to no other solution as what he did. On the other hand, I also believe that one really must not get to this point. But that's easy talking cause you simply cannot control everything that comes into your life... and when one has a parking problem as I described... it is near to become that point....

Thanks again. Hope to find out more and hope to be able to have contributed to this matter as find solutions to what I am coping with....

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talk as much as you feel you need to

by justathought In reply to opening up

Dear Frehen

write as much as you need to do so, it is the only way you must let out all your feelings, and not feel guilty for them, you have been through a lot and it comes a time when the body and mind cannot take it any longer, the stress is too much.

Perhaps you could try those 2 sites, one is about grief, I have met some lovely people there and they have helped me so much.
The other site is about depression and is just as helpful :

http://www.webhealing.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=4

http://www.depressionforums.org/forums/index.php?act=home

Keep reaching do not bottled your pain inside it is important to share your grief

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Hard times are demanding, but not impossible

by razor1947 In reply to opening up

Hello Frehen,
It's always easy to give advice when your not wearing the shoes of the man in question. I realize that much. Your family history sounds like it is in rough shape on the emotional part of living. This might be so Frehen, but my friend are your own man. You do not have to follow the same uncomfortable path.First of all you have to have a little more faith in yourself.
The statement about having courage to end one's life, is not accurate. It doesn't mean your a coward either. It's just a thought to give you a few seconds to escape from your problems, and worries. That act of self removal from the situation, will not solve anything, if anything at all, it just makes matters worse, and it gives the children the same thought also. They will think there is nothing wrong with taking their own lives either. I am sure that you do not want to teach them that is the only way to cope, do you??
You know Frehen, as hurtfull as your problems are, there are a good many people in the world that would be glad to swap places with you, beleive it or not. They are in worse shape than you are. Even though it may seem like you are on the very bottom of life's barrel, your not.
You do have a lot going for you, even though you think that you don't.
it is awful hard for me to try and give you some ideas on how to get some help with your money matters, because I don't know much of your country, or its government. I have no knowledge of any social programs in your country either.
You know how life works, when your down, everyone wants to kick you in the face. Beleive me, people have had their fun doing it to me, several times when I was down and out.

It made me so mad, that it actually gave me different kind of strength. Strength out of anger. I'm not saying that I solved my problems in a week or two, or even several months. Some of my really hard to live with problems lasted for ten years or so. But I kept chipping away at them, as best I could, a little at a time.

I litteraly talked out loud to myself, saying " you might have me down, and out now you bastards, but it won't always be this way."
It's probaly not a healthy thing to talk to yourself, but you have to do whatever it takes to keep you going, till you see the light.

There has been times when I have been out of work for long periods of time, and everyone , and their brother were hounding me for money. I have even had to live in several houses from time to time with a bunch of alcohlics, and only eating every two to three days. That is when I was divorced, and blamed myself for everything.
It seemed lik the end of the world for me, but after I found out that my wife at the time, had been sleeping with this man for the last two years of our marriage, it made me madder then ****. I was married for twelve years when that happened. That was my first marriage. To give you a brief idea on how lucky I am at love, and marriage, I'm in my fourth marriage now. This one has made it to twenty years. Oct 27, 2005 was the twenth year date. It still has as many bad days, as good. My wife is an alcohlic, and puts me through ****.

But I have my little things I do, and plan for to keep my sanity. Some of my plans never materalize, but it's my way to stay on top of things, and not be beaten down

For the longest time when I left the Marine Corps, after fighting in Viet Nam, I couldn't keep a job longer than two, or three months, and I was also drinking very heavy.

There is so much that I can tell you that is so dishearting. But bad times do pass, as long as you don't give up.

People will take advantage of you, if you let them. They like saps like me with a kind heart.
What seems unbearable to you today, will be a lesson in life for you as you get older.

There will be some good times ahead Frehen, even another love in your life, to share things with, as long as you give it a chance.

In all honesty, it might get a little worse, before it gets better, but you have to hang in there, and ride the storm my friend.

Your children will always be there for you, and will understand what everyone has put you through. Just don't leave them with the idea that a quick way out is the only answer to problems that we have to face in life.

My favorite saying--- "I once felt bad because I had no shoes, till I met a man, who had no feet."

Getting late my friend, and this old man is tired, so I'm going to hit the sack, and get some needed sleep.
Respectfuly, Ray

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Appreciated, thanks!

by frehen In reply to Hard times are demanding, ...

Thanks Ray, understand what you're saying. You're a kind-hearted man, thanks for your words.
I guess congratulations are in order, though it does not sound all to splendid. Still, having a relation for twenty years now, it's something these days. But if this putts you through ****, it's not easy, I can imagine that. You really need a balance and seek that in making your own issues important, which is good.
I need to repack myself to get to that point.
Life can be so unfair. Sometimes, like now, I really hate it. Still, you're absolutely right, don't wanna learn my kids that leaving this earth is the solution to this.
One has to fight, one has to, well drag himself from one issue to the other and, maybe, see it as a challenge to get over that one again. It's easy talk and it still has to be done, the point is, you get so damn tired of fighting all the time.
So, it's true, you need some balance.

So, cause I am not in my best shape I don't participate in all going-out suggestions my girlfriend makes. Just say No, don't feel like going. It'll come back someday. We just had a discussion of going out after newyearsday. It's with friends of her. I have no bindings with these people and just feel I am in the way. Last year I did go and felt unneeded, drank too much and made it an impossible evening. Some things happened that evening, if I had reacted as I wanted I would have struck the man in the face. But I did not and kept it peacefully, though it stops me from going out with her friends again.
I want to be able to descide whether I feel like going or not. She makes a point out of it like I let her down. OK, after my explanation she accepts, though leaving me with some guilt. It ain't right, so I try to put it asside. I am in charge of me. Sounds pretty strong... hmm.

OK, what you're saying is, all is relative, as in your favorite saying. That's true of course.
I often hear things like that. "Man you're complaining with healthy leggs", it's a dutch saying and than confront me with the people in Africa. I know that there's a huge difference in misery I have to bear and them. But I don't see the relation, I have no relation, so the point goes way pass me. Hate those comparisons. They don't help me, although I realize they are well meant. But it's so cliche. OK, I am happy I was not born there and have their misery, it won't make mine less. Know what I mean...

Ray you got quite some history of your own, being in 'nam and all. Must have a lot of scars mainly psychologically. But I hear a rather strong man who has come to the point of being selfconfident and all. I however don't feel confident at all about meself. have to reget that again. I was pretty self-confident a few years back when all kinda misery started to come over me. It did not make me stronger, it weakened me to what I am now. Too much trouble is way too overwhelming and I just can't handle it.

Ok, in a few weeks time I will get someone to talk to. I'm on a waiting list. A psycholgist. Hope he can give me some handles to take control of this. And make me stronger and more self-confident. I wana stop with pills, although I have very light version. Point is they do stop the anxiety and bad feelings, stress, they also stop some good feelings like wanting to have sex. My girlfriend is not to happy about that, neither am I of course. But it just comes with those kinda pills. It gets you a "bottom-line-feeling" where in fact you could not get below. I did get below, cause they were not strong enough for all the trouble I was facing. Gues sthat's why I got such frightening thoughts.

Finacially, well, there's welfare, meaning my govt has taken care of when one is unemployed one still gets money. At first it is 70% of what you've last earned, than it goes down and down and down. You can imagine what it's like right now. Still all gets more expensive, gas, electricity, water, house-rent, food, clothes ...
and my ex-wife just wants more and more money.
And other issues like the damage to my car, taking a lawyer etc etc.

It's not easy, but talking about it sure helps.
It putts me more at ease, cause I can vent it.
Thanks for putting up with me.
Respectfuly, Fred

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Explanation enough, that is hard

by frehen In reply to I can relate, but you nus ...

First of all, my condoleance. It is very hard.

Did not react to this justathought. Still, how good of you to bring this issue up. It sure is helping me to ventilate and at least talk about it.

Pfiew, that's a hard isuue, losing your husband. Cancer is cruel, hope he did not suffer much and long. But for you life must move on and you had the same struggle as I have now. You still are struggling as I understand. So yes, bringing this up is good for talking, we have to have some laughs to to get our life on its feet again.

Life should be worth living, though sometimes as you and I and as it appears more TR-members are struggling at some point to hold on. Painfull, really down-bottom issues which brings us to the edge of handling/coping it.

Also wish you strenghth and wish you well!
Thanks for telling.
Respectfully, Fred

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Do animals count as closed ones???

by frehen In reply to more specific

For me they do.
As staed earlier, I've had my deal of circumstances which brought me to the issue of death. I also lost my dog, called Lady.
And she was a Lady! She was beautifull !
Here's a link to a picture of her:


Hope this works.
It was sad the day she died. Of course.
She was in pain. Run throught the garden, sank to her knees and was laying down. Than she stayed lying down. She could not get up again. So we managed to get her up on a cloth and carried her inside. I stayed up all night for something was not right. At 05:00 AM she began screaming for pain... I did not knwo what to do, so I called the vets. They came... well at 06:30 u.... There was nothing they could do as to get him to sleep... so as the vet went for getting the serenge (?) to get him to sleep I talked to her...
Man this was so bad... even as I write this down it gives me shivres....
Than she was gone.... I burried her in a wood, she loved to be there... went to visit her every 2 weeks.... since 16 june '03... and now... it has been over a year that I've been there... I am ashamed... loved her so much and already forgotten. There has been a replace, not a dog of my own, but from my girlfriend. Maybe that's why.
Still Lady takes a special place.

This new bloke, called bono, after the singer of U2... he's so funny. So he stole my haert. Not the place Lady got, but a new place....

Anyhow. What about it?

I must say.
I confront people in this forum with my situation... not only "Lady"-wise... also human-wise. It is not meant to hurt or annoy anyone's feelings, but I am ia kinda shape nobody wants...
and I may be rude which never is intentionally, i may be confronting at some point, but never meant to harm.
If so I did, I appoligize... though if matter being taken into circumstances I am in... I actually expect understanding.

All my statements, feelings, sayings, are from a certain kinda perspective I have now... as all people probably have when they write...

End of message.
Friendly greetings to all who's around.
Fred

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Here's my take on it

by road-dog In reply to Do animals count as close ...

Lots of theologians say dogs have no souls so don't expect to see them in the afterlife.

I was present when an avid golfer asked the Pastor if there was golf in heaven. His answer was profound. He said that happiness was the condition to expect in heaven. If golf was essential to his happiness, then golf was to be expected.

Personally, that helps. Ecpect to be happy, If Lady is essential to your happiness, make sure you have a couple of milk-bones in your pocket when you die.

As for feeling ashamed, why bother? Put the bricks down, man! We grieve, but inevitably life goes on whether we desire to move on or not. Proximity to a gravesite is not essential to remember loved ones. They live on in our hearts and our memories. That is what is important.

bob

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