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  • #2155812

    Do Democrats want . . . . .

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    by maxwell edison ·

    ….. to see the end of the United States as the greatest military power in the world?

    ….. to see the end of the United States as the greatest economic power in the world?

    ….. to see individual liberty in the United States yield to collectivism?

    ….. to see freedom of opportunity replaced with equality of outcome?

    ….. to see the end of the United States as a distinctly different and sovereign nation, instead capitulating to the political and social will of others?

    I truly believe the answer to all these questions is yes. One has to only look at what they say AND what they do as evidence; the agenda they advance leads to all these things.

    If anyone truly believes the answer to any (or all) of these questions is no, will you please explain what they’re doing to prevent any of it from happening?

    These are simple questions that should have (and do have) simple yes or no answers.

    If you don’t like the partisan sound of the questions, simply replace [i]Democrats[/i] with [i]you[/i], and answer accordingly.

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    • #2982873

      I don’t think either Dems of Reps

      by boxfiddler ·

      In reply to Do Democrats want . . . . .

      care what they do or don’t do to this nation as long as they preserve their power. Power in the large scale is not tied to the health and welfare of the good ol’ US of A.

      Two cents.
      Ok, maybe just a penny.

      • #2982826

        The solution:

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to I don’t think either Dems of Reps

        Take the power away from them, and take it back ourselves. Of course, if you substitute the word [i]responsibility[/i] for [i]power[/i], we can see why people might not want it back – or can be convinced to cede it.

        • #2982732

          I think the ceding of it

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to The solution:

          is bought and paid for by your and my tax dollars. Try taking that money away from the purchased ones, and I think something akin to a civil war would break out.
          The cynic me says ‘it’s way too late’.
          The hopeful me says ‘sooner or later enough of us have to get pissed that something will change’.

    • #2982869

      I think those would be the outcomes of a democratic majority

      by forum surfer ·

      In reply to Do Democrats want . . . . .

      I don’t beleive anyone truly wants all of the things you mentioned, but I fear we may be steered in that direction over the course of the next four years.

      But then again we haven’t fared so well with a republican majority the past 8 years, either.

      I truly hope that in four years we all vote responsibly and keep the balance of power more balanced within the government, regardless of who we elect as President then. Just my humble opinion.

      • #2982829

        Party affiliation and/or blame aside. . . . .

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to I think those would be the outcomes of a democratic majority

        …..we’ve been on this road for many decades.

        • #2982624

          Can’t argue against you there…

          by forum surfer ·

          In reply to Party affiliation and/or blame aside. . . . .

          And I’m not happy to see it happening, it bothers me greatly and I can’t help but wonder how things will be for my son.

          I’m just sitting back waiting for this assault weapon ban to come back into place. My small stockpile of key pre-ban ar-15 parts like lower receivers and magazines will sky rocket in value just like under the Clinton administration. Might as well turn a profit off of the Democratic fear mongering tactics against myself and my fellow gun nuts!

    • #2982867

      Better yet

      by ic-it ·

      In reply to Do Democrats want . . . . .

      How about some legitimate links to explain why you feel the Democrats want to accomplish these types of things? And it should not be from one or two loony tunes that cannot accomplish it.

      • #2982821

        My legitimate links are. . . . .

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to Better yet

        …..all contained within the confines of this discussion.

        As an individual, and as a citizen of a nation that was founded upon the importance of protecting and safeguarding individual rights, my interpretation and observation is all I need to legitimize my conclusions.

        • #2982815

          Keep you honest

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to My legitimate links are. . . . .

          A certain federation also had something to do with that founding, reverberations down to this day.

          Otherwise, you argue from unimpeachable ground.

        • #2982792

          And that certain federation would be. . . . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Keep you honest

          ….. what?

        • #2982783

          Cf

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to And that certain federation would be. . . . .

          The Federalist Papers, accompanied by the Antifederalist.

        • #2982781

          The Federalist Papers. . . . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Cf

          …..were a Federation? I don’t understand.

        • #2982768

          Therein

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to The Federalist Papers. . . . .

          The arguments for a federal system, i.e., a federation of states.

          I recall from the antifederalist papers, a somewhat larger collection, in which predominated arguments animated by individual rights. Unless I miss my mark, the genesis of our Bill of Rights may be found there.

        • #2982763

          The Bill of Rights

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to The Federalist Papers. . . . .

          Correct me if I?m mistaken, but George Mason (of Virginia) pretty much wrote the Bill of Rights (based on the former Virginia Declaration of Rights), and he insisted they be included as the first ten amendments, lest the Virginia delegation would not sign the Constitution. Those opposing the Bill of Rights feared they would be referenced as defining the rights of the people, thereby setting the stage for assuming all powers were vested in government unless otherwise noted, instead of the other way around.

          It?s an interesting argument ? regardless of which one you might want to espouse.

          If you disagree that ALL POWERS rest in the people unless otherwise enumerated in the Constitution, feel free to make your case.

          Nonetheless, what does all this have to do with defining the Federalist Papers as a Federation? I?ll admit, I did not understand your original message.

          You have one more chance to make it clear. Otherwise, I?ll simply drop it.

          P.S. I really don?t like to go down these types of roads. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Be very clear. I don?t like to guess what a person intends to say.

        • #2982759

          I will be shorter with you.

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to The Federalist Papers. . . . .

          .

        • #2982757

          You obviously like to play games

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to The Federalist Papers. . . . .

          I don’t

        • #2982754

          Why do I engage. . . . . . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to The Federalist Papers. . . . .

          …?

        • #2982752

          santeewelding@… – In my eyes

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to The Federalist Papers. . . . .

          …..never mind.

        • #2982731

          Curious…

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to The Federalist Papers. . . . .

          this isn’t the first time you’ve gotten all riled at santeewelding. If he pisses you off so badly, why keep reading?

          I ask the same to others who are regularly pissed off at him? Why bother if he bugs you so badly?

        • #2982669

          Having worn the idiot brand I know the sting.

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to The Federalist Papers. . . . .

          You can’t speak for everyone Max. No one here has that ability.

          It may or may not be evident from my posts here at TR but I count Santee as a proven, great and trustworthy friend. The fact that he doesn’t engage you in the manner you’d like doesn’t, in my little mind, brand him an idiot.

          You on the other hand are as predictable as always. Things don’t go exactly the way you want, the conversation is not lofty enough for you, you don’t get the answers you’re looking for and all of a sudden out comes ‘the link’ or you’ll just call someone an idiot. Better to their face than behind their back I suppose.

          You don’t like him, don’t read his sh*t. More fun to rip and belittle someone with your substantial intellect though isn’t it?
          We’re all a little bit guilty of that too.

          Sad. Just sad. We can all be that way from time to time.

          Let ‘er rip. I thought that this WAS a good discussion. It’s not now and I know who I think ruined it.

    • #2982866

      Not really..

      by road-dog ·

      In reply to Do Democrats want . . . . .

      BUT the policies that democrats pursue in order to create some Utopian social justice will end in the above mentioned effects.

      The efforts to create this egalitarian society in item 4 will cause the others to occur.

      Funny how we fail to regard the lessons of history. The Soviet Union attempted to create this worker’s paradise but instead destroyed their nation through the ever tighter control over people’s lives.

      Current day socialists (uber-democrats) believe that they are smart enough to create this Utopia where others have failed.

      They believe that they are more qualified to direct our lives than we are. They take it upon themselves to decide what is a fair amount of money to make and that any excess is theirs to reallocate in pursuit of their visions of social justice.

      • #2982820

        Same reply

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to Not really..

        • #2982576

          Living out in the woods…

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Same reply

          Glad to be back, Max. Life’s been busy.

          Buried a marriage, Got into construction, now thinking about getting back into telecomm.

          I’m in the re-connection stage right now.

          Lots of new guys here, Oz still tossing flamebait. The more things change, the more they stay the same!

        • #2982087

          not really actually

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Living out in the woods…

          I have been on my best bahaviour lately, though you wouldn’t know if you are not around.

          I just had to have fun with this one though, Max had polished his republican badge again and is having a typical, more than predictable and very ‘common’ poke at Democrats. I am playing the other side of the fence, that’s what we do and always have done, even though I didn’ tsupport dems on this election. (Yeah I know, but I choose based on canidates not peer pressure, what’s cool or traditions).

          I have usually sided more to Republican side, its just that Bush was the most useless canidate I’d seen and yet elected twice so he had 8 years to suit his personal agenda and screw the country/world in the process.

          And to offer you some further insight, I was actually pulling for McCain on this one too, as I have noted in a few posts I started about the debates.

          But if it makes your life a bit simpler for you to just keep everyone in your predefined ‘compartments’, you go ahead.

          Whatever makes it easier for you works for me too.

          Oh, and welcome back.

        • #2981995

          The same ol pokes

          by cubeslave ·

          In reply to not really actually

          The same old pokes at the opposition is one if the reasons why neo-cons really annoy me. Rather than engage in some real discourse it is:

          Liberals BAD!
          Conservatives Good!
          Fox News not Liberal, so
          Fox News good!

          Don’t get me wrong, the democratic party is largely directionless and ineffective. Aside from being a loose aggregation of people who don’t call themselves Republican, there aren’t a lot of unifying ideology.

          The second I hear someone talk about liberal conspiracies I know just how ignorant they (or at least their target audience) are.

          I feel, the power elites doing their best to make sure that there are only two major parties causes a lot of the political ills here in the US.

          The “if you aren’t with us your are against us” ideology is how you get folks like the Log Cabin Republicans that side with a party that would largely like to wipe them out (or at least send them into hiding).

        • #2982037

          Hi Road-Dog

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to Living out in the woods…

          A pleasure to make your acquaintance. I’ve been around
          here awhile but maybe we just didn’t hang out in the same
          threads.

          So sorry to hear about the recent burial. That kind of
          thing is never easy.

          Telecomm is an interesting place to be. Especially if you
          know VoIP and are willing to travel.

          Ozzie has been very good of late. As I always suspected,
          he’s really a teddy bear with an edge to him.

          We all look forward to hearing more from you. Welcome
          back!

        • #2982025

          road-dog’s a good guy – we go way back

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Hi Road-Dog

          In fact, we even went to different schools together – and at different times and different places!

          Libertarian, common-sense approach.

      • #2982708

        I thought…

        by cubeslave ·

        In reply to Not really..

        Except for some general lip service to socialist and communist ideals, I thought the USSR was pretty much a totalitarian oligarchy.

        I thought I remembered from some history class that the worker’s paradise BS was just the particular line Lenin and his guys used to get enough people behind them to overthrow the Czars and take over.

        The Bolshevik wanted power, but the general public just wouldn’t buy into any of the other concepts they tried to get them to rally around like Representational Democracy or just how much cooler it would be to have them in power rather than the other guys.

        • #2982570

          There you go!

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to I thought…

          It began as a high ideal, the creation of a society based on an egalitarian vision. Unfortunately, the social theory breaks down early because we are all individuals, predisposed to looking after our own interests. Communism and socialism do not take this into account and ultimately fail.

          A solid and sustainable social vision takes individualism and fosters it. Our founding fathers’ brilliance is reflected in the Federalist papers and other documents relating to the creation of the Constitution.

          Now both parties seem intent on increasing their power, as evidenced by the ballooning federal budget. Individualism is under siege by both the extreme left and right. Both parties use fear of the other guys to win elections. It works. Meanwhile, our freedoms and self-determination get nibbled away from both sides.

          When did self-interest become a vice? How did we get here? At what point do people realize that it is not in their own best interests to take away someone else’s self-determination?

        • #2982035

          You ever come up with answers to those questions

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to There you go!

          Tell me! I can tell you how frustrating it is to see the
          absolute refusal of people to be in charge of their own
          lives. It just makes me ill.

          Whatever happened to people being expected by their
          society to be individually responsible for their own
          actions? Why in hell does everyone think that government
          can do it for them better than they, themselves?

          All I ask in life is to live it based on MY rules- nothing
          that should stick in anyone else’s craw- and be allowed to
          tell my God what I did- both wrong and right. How can I
          do that when the gov is darned near telling me what
          toothpaste I can use?

          AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

          And why are we, the people, allowing this? Why in hell
          aren’t we DOING something about it? Those people
          running this country work for ME dammit and they don’t
          seem to know it. Worse, they are making it very difficult
          for me to TELL them!

    • #2982865

      My opinion

      by tig2 ·

      In reply to Do Democrats want . . . . .

      I think that the more valid approach is your alternative
      phrasing. “Do I want to see…” The answer is, “No way in
      hell.” The other side of that is that it is now my
      responsibility to watch for signs of any of those things
      happening and make what effort I can to stop them.

      To be honest, I can’t rightly say what a Democrat wants. I
      have never been one. I know little about the agenda. But
      one of the things that I learned in the last election is that I
      need to learn more and maintain awareness. And speak
      up about what I don’t like.

      I don’t believe that anyone can get away with fence sitting
      any longer. I know I would like to see more bi-partisan
      effort but I doubt I will.

      As always, Max, you are making me think. I believe I need
      to organize my thoughts a bit better for this question.

      • #2982816

        If I could snap my fingers and make one thing happen. . . . .

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to My opinion

        …..it would be to see a return of underlying principle to the political debates. As I suggested in another message, if an unintended consequence violates an underlying principle, then it becomes obvious that one of two things is true – either there’s a disagreement in the underlying principle, or a different solution should be sought.

        • #2982548

          If I could change one

          by charliespencer ·

          In reply to If I could snap my fingers and make one thing happen. . . . .

          it would be a return of actual debating to the debates, instead of these “Answer the question I want, not the one asked” extended press conferences.

        • #2982545

          No kidding

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to If I could change one

          I don’t think I heard a single question that was asked,
          answered. I gave up on the debates as an insane waste of
          my time and energy for that reason.

          I would love to see a rash of sense break out at some of
          those political rallies. I did see Mc Cain actually respond
          to what the people were saying at a local event. A woman
          accused Obama of being Muslim and stated that he
          terrified her. Mc Cain’s response was that she was
          mistaken about Obama’s religious beliefs and to tell her
          that she shouldn’t be frightened of a man that he knew
          personally to be a good person. Then he made a plea to
          the audience to not make his campaign an ad hominem
          attack but to instead know the issues.

          Probably one of the better moments for me. And about
          bloody time.

          One of our Senatorial candidates removed all of his attack
          ads prior to the election and substituted ads about the
          issues. The other side referred to it as a “stunt”. That
          particular race is still undecided pending a recount.

        • #2982118

          We got one going on here too,

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to No kidding

          trading lawsuits. Count those ones… don’t count these ones… Oh, never mind, don’t count those ones either… It’s funny.

        • #2982103

          Will Minnesota be the next Florida?

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to No kidding

          You guys have the potential up there to be the next Florida.

          Oh, a story about what you said:

          http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/10/10/coleman_ads/?refid=0

        • #2982075

          Could very easily be the case

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to Will Minnesota be the next Florida?

          At the end of the validated ballot count, there were only
          206 votes difference between Coleman and Franken.
          Barkley took 15% of the vote.

          The recount will begin next week. We use an electronic
          (Scan Tron type) system but it is assumed that there were
          ballots cast that did not fill in the oval fully or may have
          drawn an ‘x’ or circled their choice. So hanging chads
          won’t be an issue but they are fighting about how to
          register the circled name votes. We also had a situation
          where a precinct judge left 31 ballots in her car and
          turned them in late because she had forgotten them. The
          question is whether or not they should count because
          they were mis-handled.

          The recount is supposed to wrap up in December. The
          public is invited to watch the process.

          Incidentally, thanks for putting up a link to the NPR story.
          That particular campaign was a tough one to watch.

    • #2982861

      The questions are stacked.

      by santeewelding ·

      In reply to Do Democrats want . . . . .

      Another way to stack them would be affirmations of the (liberal) pursuit, as opposed to negation, and see what happens.

      • #2982832

        I wanted to bring to light. . . . . . .

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to The questions are stacked.

        …..some of those dreaded unintended consequences.

        Engineers in many different fields work to identify the unintended consequences that might result from a proposed solution. When they’re identified, and they’re deemed unacceptable, the solution is changed.

        We need some societal and political engineers to do just that – at least, that kind of thinking.

        As I’ve said in any number of other messages, often times opposing political sides don’t disagree on the need to solve a problem, but rather on the proposed avenue to get there.

    • #2982793

      Do Republicans want . . . . .

      by maxwell edison ·

      In reply to Do Democrats want . . . . .

      ….. to violate the individual rights of one person (always a woman) under the presumption that they?re protecting the rights of something within her very own body?

      ….. to violate the freedom of individual choice by dictating what a person may or may not consume within the privacy of one?s own home?

      And this one is the same as above:

      ….. to see individual liberty in the United States yield to collectivism?

      • #2982730

        Something?

        by boxfiddler ·

        In reply to Do Republicans want . . . . .

        Or someone?

        • #2982704

          I thought about that word

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Something?

          Which one to use. I actually changed it. Regardless, does it matter? The initial question’s still valid.

        • #2982700

          How would you vote on this?

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Something?

          Shall there be an amendment to the [i]state[/i] constitution defining the term ?person? to include any human being from the moment of fertilization as ?person? is used in those provisions of the [i]state[/i] constitution relating to inalienable rights, equality of justice, and due process of law?

        • #2982699

          It could mean that some day. . . . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to How would you vote on this?

          ……that “person” might have to be taken into protective custody. How exactly would that work?

        • #2971037

          Well….

          by cubeslave ·

          In reply to It could mean that some day. . . . .

          If someone wants to spend the money to perfect embryo transfer and preservation technology, and offer it as an alternative to abortion I am sure that there will be a lot of takers(if the legalities and ethics can be worked out). But currently that is largely still science fiction.

          Currently honest sex education and easy access to effective birth control are some of the best ways to prevent most abortions.

          Unfortunately, the anti-reproductive rights crowd seems to be dominated by people who seem to oppose both sex education and birth control. I get the idea they believe that, if you can’t abstain form intercourse until you are in a legally and religiously approved pair-bond, you deserve anything and everything that happens to you.

        • #2970956

          That’s not it at all

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Well….

          [i]I get the idea they believe that, if you can’t abstain form intercourse until you are in a legally and religiously approved pair-bond, you deserve anything and everything that happens to you.[/i]

          They believe that life should be endured, not enjoyed, and are deathly afraid that somebody somewhere might actually be having fun. You’ll notice that the same crowd is usually also against alcohol consumption, movies, television, and books other than the Bible.

          What I find hypocritically hilarious is they are so eager to go forth and multiply that they produce their first children only five to seven months after the wedding instead of taking the usual nine.

        • #2982072

          Don’t bother with easy questions, Max

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to How would you vote on this?

          The tough ones are more interesting to answer.

          To my mind, as long as it is living in my body- living OFF
          my body in fact- it is not a person, it is a parasite. Once
          it is capable of sustaining life on its own, it becomes a
          person. I want to say that the minimum gestational age to
          live outside the womb is 25 or 26 weeks (it has been years
          since I did a Maternity rotation).

          So that’s my answer. As long as the unborn child is
          beyond that 25th or 26th (whichever it is) week of
          gestation, it is a person. Until then it is not.

          If I recall, this has actually been tested in court but I
          couldn’t give you any information. I just vaguely recall
          that from nursing school.

        • #2982064

          This was actually on the ballot. . . . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Don’t bother with easy questions, Max

          …..in my state. (Search [i]personhood amendment Colorado[/i] if you’re interested.)

          I won’t go into details in regards to my views on the overall abortion issue (except to say that I actually have a wide variety of feelings about it – conflicting feelings, of course), but this was the very first time I actually cast a vote based on it. I’ve never cast my vote for any particular candidate because he/she espoused one side of the issue over the other; it’s pretty much been a non-issue for me. (Out of sight, out of mind.) But this was the first time I had to vote yes or no – or decide not vote on the question at all. (Like I never vote yes or no on the judge retention questions – I just don’t know.)

          It was in the voting booth when I actually had images of the unintended consequences that were possible, as I briefly described them in these messages. For me, it just didn’t pass the stink test, so I voted no. It failed by a HUGE margin, something like 75% to 25%.

          Edit to provide a link:

          http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96167092&ft=1&f=1003

        • #2982055

          It’s hard to believe that would go to the vote

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to This was actually on the ballot. . . . .

          I go back and forth on the abortion thing myself. I have a
          faith that goes one direction and experiences that run in
          another. Add to that the fact that I don’t think I have the
          right to vote from a purely religious viewpoint and we
          immediately see the conflict.

          Realistically, I would think that personhood could only be
          defined gestationally. You can’t tell someone determined
          to NOT have the child for whatever reason that they MUST.
          I think that a determined individual would manage to get
          the child out of her body by fair means or foul. There
          might be any number of reasons that a woman would be
          so determined. The loss of nearly a year of her life, health
          issues, genetic issues, the list is endless. So the
          personhood vote would allow that woman to be taken into
          custody and basically imprisoned until the baby is born?
          That is preposterous to me.

          I can’t tell you how glad I am to hear that the silly thing
          did not pass. It would have effectively reduced women to chattel once again. I thought that the idea was to
          progress.

        • #2982049

          In a few states. . . . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to It’s hard to believe that would go to the vote

          …..Colorado and California being two of them, absolutely anything can get on the ballot if some special interest gathers enough signatures on a petition. And some of them are worded in a way that really makes a yes vote be counted as a strike against the measure, and vice-versa. It’s stupid, and a real PITA to deal with the people gathering signatures at the grocery store – not to mention the out-of-state looney tunes who finance the things.

          The following kinds of issues are easy for me to decide:

          [i]Should there be an increase in the _______ (fill in the blank) tax rate to pay for _______ (fill in the blank)…….[/i]

          That’s as far as I read. I will admit, I ALWAYS vote no on any tax increase for any reason. Quit wasting and misspending the money you already get, I think. If they need money for something new, stop spending it on something else.

        • #2982042

          I tend to do the same as you

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to It’s hard to believe that would go to the vote

          I generally vote NO on any tax increase… until this year.

          MN had one that would increase taxes fractionally (the
          estimate is $52 a year with no provision for increase) to
          maintain places like the Boundary Waters (very near to
          where we hunt up in Superior). The measure was very
          clearly thought out and provided a clear understanding of
          what auditing and reporting would be done in insure that
          the money was being spent exactly as purported.

          It was the first time I had ever seen a request to raise a
          tax so clearly written. And I have long believed that if you
          take advantage of the USE of a thing, you should be
          willing to pay for it too.

          This modest tax also extends to the maintenance of our
          10,000 lakes, addressing both pollution issues as well as
          milfoil and other parasite issues.

          The tax passed with 63% of the vote. Quite a feat in a
          place that generally does as you and I do. If they want
          more money, the answer is NO.

        • #2981983

          Personhood

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to It’s hard to believe that would go to the vote

          If we progress gestationally into personhood, at what point the other end, say gathering dementia and dependence, do we exit personhood?

        • #2981921

          Damn. Why didn’t I ever think to ask that?

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to It’s hard to believe that would go to the vote

          I will from now on. Thanks, santee. 😀

        • #2981907

          Sequela

          by santeewelding ·

          In reply to It’s hard to believe that would go to the vote

          Framing personhood is not about personhood. It is about framing.

        • #2982020

          A fine point or two

          by delbertpgh ·

          In reply to How would you vote on this?

          First, I don’t think that you can consider the fetus an independent thinking organism until its nervous system begins to work, which is approximately half way through gestation. 19 weeks, say.

          Second, if I were to assert that the fetus had human rights before the brain started to fire, I would face the problem of what happens between fertilization and implantation. The egg is fertilized in the tubes, and 2/3 of fertilized eggs never implant. That is, a fertilized egg usually washes out with the period. Do you assert that the day-after pill, which actively prevents implantation, is a killer drug? I can’t understand the logic that holds that. It works on a philosophical dedication to the idea of life, rather than its actual, observed circumstances.

          I believe there should be no such amendment to state constitutions, such as you describe.

        • #2982005

          Given the direction of travel on this subject…

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to A fine point or two

          The farcically logical extension of all of this is the declaration of [male] masturbation as a felony…

        • #2981985

          How do you reconcile these two messages?

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to A fine point or two

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=278710&messageID=2639682

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=278710&messageID=2639050

          …..considering the fact they?re addressed to the same person? In one, you pretty much agree with me. In the other, you pretty much lambaste me for being partisan.

        • #2981936

          Not sure I understand problem of reconciliation

          by delbertpgh ·

          In reply to How do you reconcile these two messages?

          The messages do not contradict each other, and neither one agrees with your general position. (I think. I took the inference that you were an anti-abortionist, possibly holding the sacredness and inviolability of fetal life from the momemnt of conception. I could be wrong. I’m no fan of abortion, but I tolerate it, because legal or illegal, safe or unsafe, scorned or respected, it will be prevalent and performed in the millions every year. I disapprove of murder, and the closer the fetus is to being a full term child, the closer it comes to murder. So it’s a balance, and I draw the line in the middle of the second trimester, when the nervous system goes live.)

          However, I lambaste you for being partisan because you enjoy partisanship; otherwise, you could never frame questions in the nature of “do Democrats believe in collectivism, military submission, and the end of individual liberty”, and answer your own questions with a big “yes.” This is a partisan provocation; it isn’t a real argument, asking for real discourse. It’s more of a cheerleading exercise.

          You lambaste, you get re-lambasted. In The Lion King, that’s called the circle of life.

          Never the less, I try to be civil, and expose my real arguments, at least part of the time.

        • #2981919

          Double post – sorry ’bout that

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Not sure I understand problem of reconciliation

          .

        • #2981917

          [i]. . . . .do Democrats believe in collectivism. . . . .[/i]

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Not sure I understand problem of reconciliation

          I did, down the line (as a second thought), provide a bit of balance and perspective.

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=278710&messageID=2638748

          [i]I took the inference that you were an anti-abortionist…..[/i] Because you probably take the inference that I’m a partisan Republican.

          [i]This is a partisan provocation…..[/i] No, it’s principled provocation.

          If you think I support any and all things Republican, you simply haven’t been paying attention. And if you think I base by opinions on party instead of principle, again, you haven’t been paying attention.

          Reference:

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=183299&messageID=1869535

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=194342&messageID=2005501

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=177209&messageID=1803516

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=196585&messageID=2045854

          If you want to read more, search the forums for [i]baby+democrats[/i], and you’ll find many similar.

          I’d much rather debate principle, but unfortunately it always seems to fall into the gutter of discussing party and politics. I do know why that happens, however. It forces people to either admit that their policy preference violates their principle (which they won’t do), or they’d have to admit what their underlying principle really is (which they won’t do).

        • #2982578

          We have

          by boxfiddler ·

          In reply to Something?

          all sorts of ways to objectify persons these days. Human Resources departments. Customer Resource Manaagment software, ‘demographics’. And the difference between someone and something. Which I tend to notice.

          Now, what I want to know, is why a murderer gets charged with 2 counts of murder for taking out a pregnant woman and her child, while a pregnant woman taking out her own child walks scot free.

          On the other hand, some years ago a couple engaged a royal custody battle over the frozen, fertilized eggs they had stored away for future reference. This drug on for quite awhile as I recall.

          The illogic in our law is mind-boggling.

          etu

        • #2982556

          Because of the potential . . . . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to We have

          ….. unintended consequences of something like this:

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=278710&messageID=2638902

          …..an outcome like this:

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=278710&messageID=2638934

          …..could actually happen – and that should NEVER happen. Currently, government (in the form of Child Protective Services) can – and do – take children from parents on a mere suspicion of abuse; and then we have differing definitions of abuse. They’ll even take your pet away from you.

          If a law like the one I described would ever pass and make it through the inevitable challenges in the courts, then it’s not a stretch at all to imagine yet another government agency: [i]The Unborn Child Protective Services[/i]. Do we really want to see such a thing? Couldn’t happen, one might say? Yea, right.

          In this case (the abortion issue), perhaps government and law makers aren’t the best avenue to pursue a desired outcome. Government simply cannot solve all problems, and it’s time people realize the harm being done by always turning to government to solve all problems.

          If we want to advance an agenda of less government control into private lives, we have to be willing to let the same principle apply in cases with which we might disagree. If we believe in individual liberty, we have to accept it as the most important factor and simply let the chips fall where they may. The ends do not always justify the means – in fact, that’s seldom the case. The noble end does not justify the means of denying a person the right to individual liberty – period. If there are exceptions, they’re very few. Today, it seems that people find a way to justify almost everything as an exception.

          A trade-off, or consequence, of living in a free society means that some people might do and say things with which others may not agree. Our society is becoming less and less free because people are always trying to get others to capitulate to their way of thinking – and they’re forcing it through the strong arm of government. Well, we need to get over it. I don’t like [i]them[/i] doing it to me (it being infringing on my individual liberty so [i]they[/i] can advance their desired agenda), so I should be just as willing to not do it to [i]them[/i]. If we all practiced such tolerance for diversity of thought, our nanny government would be a fraction of the size it is today.

      • #2982560

        That’s the problem

        by road-dog ·

        In reply to Do Republicans want . . . . .

        The Libertarian party will gain traction in this country only when enough democrats give up on controlling other people’s wallets and enough republicans give up on controlling other people’s bodies.

        Both parties gain and retain power on the premise that they will impose their/your will on fellow citizens.

        Smarten up America, we’re getting played by both sides. We win as Americans only when we choose to vote for the party who will leave us alone, that includes those people over on the other side of the aisle.

        Democrats:
        If you want to get the government out of your uterus, give up your desire to impose your social vision.
        Republicans:
        If you want get the government out of your wallet, give up on your desire to to impose your moral vision.

        The parties fight over power only because we have given up too much power to begin with.

        As with 2 year-olds, Take away the cookie, end the fight….

        • #2981984

          I hate to disagree with you, but. . . . . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to That’s the problem

          ….the Libertarian Party will never gain traction in this country. The best hope to instill libertarian principles into the debate is to make inroads (with that message) into one of the two main parties, specifically the Republican Party.

          On a scale of 1-10, making the Libertarian Party a force to be reckoned with is not even a 1. On the other hand, convincing the Republican Party to return to the libertarian principles of Goldwater is …….. well, it’s more than a 1.

        • #2981979

          P.S.

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to I hate to disagree with you, but. . . . . .

          Either way, libertarianism is probably screwed.

        • #2983340

          I think you’re off on the odds

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to I hate to disagree with you, but. . . . . .

          I’m really skeptical that the more socially conservative arm of the GOP will never give up on trying to make the Bible the law of the land. For some Christians, they cannot get their minds around the fact that forced virtue is not a virtue.

          I suspect that the two party system has to go. These two giants cannot be slain, they cannot even kill each other. Ergo, if another party can pull just 15 percent from both, that will be enough to cause gridlock and get these clowns out of my life and wallet.

          The key to this will be the types that have figured out that government control is bad even when it is my will being imposed on society. These folks having learned a thing or two from the tug of war that is bankrupting this nation.

          The GOP is a loss right now. The very fact that McCain was the nominee this year indicates this. His own policy of campaign finance reform bled his own candidacy dry. At heart, he’s a big government guy thinking that he can legislate integrity.

          NO, both parties are too busy fighting each other to learn.

    • #2982697

      Let’s cut to the chase..

      by jmgarvin ·

      In reply to Do Democrats want . . . . .

      All politicians will be politicians. The Bail Out is this centuries Teapot Dome.

    • #2982657

      This is straight crap. Sorry, Max.

      by delbertpgh ·

      In reply to Do Democrats want . . . . .

      I don’t see these opinions prevailing anywhere, except in the loony bins of the communist fringe, and the chance of them getting influence in a mainstream Democratic government is about as close to zero as the chance of GWB inviting the KKK to draft a civil rights bill. Your list of questions is just evidentiary of a disgruntled conservative crying in his Scotch and picking at old scabs. It’s a case of letting imagination run wild because you want to feel bad.

      The country is still center-right in its overall outlook, and they voted for Obama because the Republicans were so utterly inept over the last four years, and because people were scared by the economy. The country will remain what it is, and just because they hired a liberal contractor to do the job of government doesn’t mean the contractor has a license to go nuts. (Although, considering how decisively GWB moved toward conservative fetishes following his slim win in 2000, I wouldn’t be positive. GWB may have established a trend in extremist unilateralism in American government. Let’s hope not.)

      Incidentally, it looks inevitable that the U.S. will cease to be the greatest economic power in the world, not because of its fall, but because of China’s rise. Their economy grows from 8 to 12 per cent per year, and ours by only about 2 or 3. Their economy will double every seven years; ours, every 25. In less than 20 years China will have a larger economy, despite a much lower per-capita income. Regardless of who runs American government, second-place status is coming, unless China collapses in revolution. Could happen.

      • #2982646

        Rise and fall

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to This is straight crap. Sorry, Max.

        how much of an effect do you think government regulations here, and lack of them in China, effect the growth rate?

        How much of an effect does intentionally raising costs of energy in the US hinder us?

        How much of an effect does corporate taxing and all the anti-“big business” talk here in the US have?

        • #2982569

          China’s the place you want to be?

          by delbertpgh ·

          In reply to Rise and fall

          Q:”how much of an effect do you think government regulations here, and lack of them in China, effect the growth rate?”
          A:There are plenty of government regulations in China, often of the worst kind. The “worst kind” are those in situations where the men who run the government run the business, and who confiscate land and shut down avenues of redress to improve profit. This happens a lot in China, especially in little backwater places where some group of town fathers and the local communist party boss decide they want to get in on this industialization boom. China is rife with stories about construction managers and factories who don’t pay their workers for months, and who are shielded by the local police from protest. Air and water in its cities are badly polluted; I would bet half of China’s urban residents will hack themselves to death by age 65. It’s no paradise, but it beats a rice paddy. China’s growth is mainly driven by exports, and by the 50 million people who come out of the villages every year and into the cities, desparate for work. If China doesn’t find jobs for them, it has revolution. China has lots of regulations in some areas, none in others. Remember, it’s still technically a communist-governed state.

          Q:”How much of an effect does intentionally raising costs of energy in the US hinder us?”
          A: Is the cost of energy completely priced into the product? For example, the U.S. imports about 10 million barrels per day, or $600 mn, or $1.5 bn at August prices. This puts money into the hands of potential enemies (we import lots from Hugo Chavez, for example) and puts our life on the line if anybody should cut off that supply. So there’s a security cost on top of the energy, which means military expenditure, foreign policy tricks, etc. In 2008 we will have sent $400 bn overseas to buy oil, and those loose dollars do not help our economic position. And, pollution is another result; we pay for the lung damage, let alone global warming (which most accredited scientists in the field seem to believe is attributable to human carbon use; ‘scuse me if I pay them some heed.) Think we should cut down on oil imports? How? Sweat the fluids out of American oil shale, and use that instead? Shale-to-oil is a pollution-intensive process, probably worse than burning coal, and the product is expensive. Would you require Americans to use American oil products instead of buying cheaper imports? Wouldn’t that be like intentionally raising the cost of energy in the U.S.? Maybe you’d prefer a per-gallon tax on gasoline, to keep the price high, and discourage use. Or would you prefer instead cheap gas, but a federal ban on any big or inefficient car? No more F-10s for recreational users? Look, this last year has proved that there is no security for this country in just letting the market set prices and consumption. We need to work together with a plan.

          Q:”How much of an effect does corporate taxing and all the anti-“big business” talk here in the US have?”
          A: Geez, what anti-big-business talk are you hearing? Must be your hearing aid is stuck on the Summer of Love, 1968. The only complaints I hear about this season concern the bankers and finance houses, the big-league nitwits who put the world economy in jeopardy. Maybe their soft puppy eyes touch your heart… “We didn’t meant to pee on the 4 trillion dollar sofa, master!” As for taxing, the U.S. corporate income tax rate is high, but we offer abundant loopholes for escaping it; there are other additional taxes. It’s pretty hard to say what the effective tax rate is, and how that compares to the effective tax rate of other countries. What is true about this country is that it is easier to assemble money, attract talent and investors, and start a lawful company than anywhere else, and that’s why people do it, and are not discouraged by a tax rate. However, if we are going to cut tax rates on anybody, I would recommend we do it on corporations, not individuals. That’s not popular with everybody, I’m sure you know.

    • #2982649

      Which ones?

      by tonythetiger ·

      In reply to Do Democrats want . . . . .

      The drivers or the passengers?

      • #2982550

        The drivers and . . . . .

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to Which ones?

        …..the back-seat drivers.

    • #2982647

      Based upon observations

      by jdclyde ·

      In reply to Do Democrats want . . . . .

      Many of the more liberal members seem to think we don’t NEED an army, and if we were to get rid of it, everyone would live in peace. Incredibly naive, in my opinion.

      We constantly see anti-business legislation coming from the left, and hear about the “big” this or that. After the punitive taxes are placed on the “big” company, they pretend to be surprised when the company moves a lot of it’s operations overseas. (chasing away business)

      There is little talk from Democrats about people, but instead groups, and how these groups need a hand up(out). The groups are told they are not able to succeed on their own, and NEED government to solve their problems.

      The fourth is tied in with the third, since these people are unable to advance based upon their own efforts, it isn’t “fair” that they achieve so little.

      There is also the misguided faith on big government, which looks to going and make a world government. Watch out for a world banking system, as that will be a horrible thing for the US. (ask the Brits how overjoyed they are with the Euro.) Also ties back to the first, if there is only one government, why would you need ANY armies? All the evil dictators would see the error of their ways and become swell fellas.

      Some out of self loathing, some out of guilt, some out of just to much pot.

      • #2982621

        Democrats are just as loony as Republicans

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to Based upon observations

        Sarah Palin is the perfect example of a nutty Republican and Nancy Pelosi is the perfect example of a nutty Democrat.

        With that being said, a large portion of the problems we are seeing now is because of over-deregulation:
        http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/24/economics-creditcrunch-federal-reserve-greenspan

        • #2982058

          yes, but WHY wasn’t it regulated?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Democrats are just as loony as Republicans

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

          Even Bill said directly, the Dems part is their BLOCKING any regulation.

          If you listen to this and still think it was Republicans that are to cause……..

        • #2981992

          You’re letting your prejudices choose your words again, JD

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to yes, but WHY wasn’t it regulated?

          [i]Even Bill said directly, the Dems part is their BLOCKING any regulation.

          If you listen to this and still think it was Republicans that are to cause…….. [/i]

          On the one hand, you say “the Dems part”, implying that both parties were involved. On the other hand, you follow up with “still think it was Republicans…”, implying that it was all done by the Democrats.

          Do the Republicans share responsibility? Yes or no. As I recall, they held the Congressional majority for most of the Clinton presidency…

        • #2981986

          On prejudices

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to You’re letting your prejudices choose your words again, JD

          Some people define core principles, rest on those principles, and just let the chips fall where they may. Others, however, attack that as being “prejudice”.

          If you want to attack somebody, you can probably find a reason to do it.

          Is a person consistent with core principles (even though it might be in disagreement with others), or is he prejudice? I guess it depends on how it conforms to another?s perspective.

        • #2981937

          If you wish to consider that an attack

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to On prejudices

          that’s your choice…

        • #2981924

          Good answer – I should have said

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to If you wish to consider that an attack

          Some people define core principles, rest on those principles, and just let the chips fall where they may. Others, however, might characterize that as being “prejudice”.

          If you want to characterize someone in any number of ways, you could probably find a way to do it.

          Is a person consistent with core principles (even though it might be in disagreement with others), or is he prejudice? I guess it depends on how it conforms to another?s perspective.

        • #2981910

          How I read JD’s post

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to If you wish to consider that an attack

          In the vast majority of his political posts, JD has a history of blaming society’s ills and government’s excesses almost exclusively on the Democrats. I don’t have a problem with that, he’s entitled to do so. But I think he occasionally forgets that Republicans have also made their contributions to the current situation in the good old USA.

          What I saw in this case was JD conceding that the Democrats in Congress only played a part in the mortgage crisis, then attempting to cover that concession by asking a leading question that read as though it absolved Republicans from blame. My post, poorly worded though it may have been (it WAS late), was an attempt to call him on it.

        • #2983053

          And the majority of the Bush Presidency was a Repub Congress

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to You’re letting your prejudices choose your words again, JD

          Blaming the Dems is like blaming Bush for 911

        • #2983363

          Exactly

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to And the majority of the Bush Presidency was a Repub Congress

          .

        • #2983360

          Of course, they were all dirty

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to You’re letting your prejudices choose your words again, JD

          It is just ignorant to make a claim that it is evil republicans that caused it, and Dems had nothing to do with it, including Obama who was directly addressed in 04 by fanny mae on the trouble and did NOTHING to prevent it.

          And Dems ran a filibuster at every turn that Reps could not overcome. What is bad for the country was good for the party out of power.

        • #2983358

          Additional

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Of course, they were all dirty

          I have been saying for some time now that Republicans are not in alignment with my beliefs, and was why I did not vote for McCain.

          As I explained to my VERY liberal, yet very dear Aunt, the difference between her and me is she things Republicans are crooks and I think Politicians are crooks.

          Sure, I am more vocal against Dems more, but that is because I disagree with them more.

        • #2983341

          At least

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Of course, they were all dirty

          [i]What is bad for the country was good for the party out of power.[/i]

          temporarily…

        • #2983858

          It only changes

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to At least

          when parties change positions.

          The last 7 years have been about how much Dems HATE Bush, not about how to keep our country a great place to raise a family.

        • #2971136

          That’s the gospel truth JD

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to At least

          [i]The last 7 years have been about how much Dems HATE Bush, not about how to keep our country a great place to raise a family. [/i]

          And the eight years before that were about how much Reps HATE Clinton, not about how to keep our country a great place to raise a family.

          And the four years before that…

          Unfortunately, I remember similar attitudes all the way back to LBJ. The only difference from term to term was the party out of power and the name of the President.

          Don’t these people understand they don’t have a right to be right…I mean “correct”?

        • #2968589

          With an exception Nick

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to At least

          It is fair to say that Dems set all time lows for their behavior.

          It has always been about the right vs left, but this got personal, hateful and ugly.

          I am hoping that “the right” shows they are better humans than that, and I think they will.

        • #2968499

          I don’t know, JD

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to At least

          It’s getting awfully shrill on the radio and faux newz.

          Personally, I think there’s a character defect that makes people interested in politics. Just imagine how much better off we would be if we could eliminate that…

    • #2982111

      Okay well you asked for it

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to Do Democrats want . . . . .

      I was just wondering where you’d been lately actually, lo and behold you’re still kicking, good to see.

      YOu listed a lot of things/directions where you see America heading. I don’t think ANYONE wants to see you go down the tubes, but the democrats will have a lot of work on their hands tryign to reverse that direction that GWB had already sent you in.

      The opposite, according to you, would be to keep going down the same, destructuve road you are on now.

      for Republcans to have ANY complaints abotu what the democrats may do at this point in time is absurd, leading by examlpe is usually the best way to get things done. Right now, America couldn’t possibly be doing worse, so Republicans are just looking for things to instill FEAR about a Democratic government. Face it, the last 8 years of Republican administration have sunk your country, disgraced yoru once good name and made you look like absolute fools in front of the rest of the world.

      Unfortunately the cards have already been dealt and you’ll just have to see how much worse your country is after 4 years.

      You can bitch and whine until the cows come home, you’d have to elect a pretty crappy president to see yourselves fall any further.

      But of course, if Obama doesn’t manage to quickly put an end to all of Bush’s horrific mistakes, which is virtually impossible at this point in time, HE’LL be blamed for getting you there, not the person who actually did the damage to your economy, military, foreign view etc.

      This is like saying you don’t want a bandaid on your cut finger because it is going to hurt when you take it off.

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