IT Employment·20,064 discussions

False information on resume – ever do it?

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OK folks – still looking for a new job, and I was thinking about stretching the truth on the resume. Things like saying I have a degree (I don’t) and certified training on the newer stuff. Look – I don’t mean lying about things I don’t know about, just the goofy details that get you past the screeners. I learned the new stuff on my own and I can hold my own against most techies….

Topic

Stretching truth = lying

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Lying is a false statement deliberately presented as being true. Stretching the truth is the same as telling a lie.

If you state that you have a degree and you don’t, you’ve told a lie. If you state that you have certified training on new hardware/software and you don’t, you’ve told a lie. Degrees and certifications are hardly “goofy details”.

I don’t believe that telling a lie on your resume is a path you want to travel. I’m sure it looks inviting to lie to get where you want to go, but I strongly advise against it.

likewise

In reply to Stretching truth = lying

It can come back to haunt you … years, or even decades later.

Bottom line

In reply to Stretching truth = lying

One day they will call your bluff, or somehow it will slip out in casual conversation that you don’t have the “goofy” certifications. Be proactive. Demonstrate to your employer, or future employer, that your knowledge and abilities can go head to head with someone with certified credentials. Let your actions speak.

never ever add-on

In reply to Bottom line

what you SHOULD do is use this to your advantage. The big thing is that you actually HAVE to do this. Tell the company that you are actively working on your degree and that your technical skills arefrom the best school – the school of hard knocks and you are self taught. DO NOT put down the certification however. You don’t know that the person you are talking to doesn’t have it and considers it a badge of honor. tell him that you want to get the diploma and hopefully you can get the time (since your college classes need to come first).

never ever add-on

In reply to Bottom line

what you SHOULD do is use this to your advantage. The big thing is that you actually HAVE to do this. Tell the company that you are actively working on your degree and that your technical skills arefrom the best school – the school of hard knocks and you are self taught. DO NOT put down the certification however. You don’t know that the person you are talking to doesn’t have it and considers it a badge of honor. tell him that you want to get the diploma and hopefully you can get the time (since your college classes need to come first). This shows that you have a plan of action, desitre to improve and self motivated.

Lies

In reply to Stretching truth = lying

You don’t have to lie. The thing on the other hand is that not all the recruiters are as competent as they are presented here. Hell, most of them likely lied on their resumes to get the gig themselves.

So if you want to pass the first line and think you have enough insight to score the job once you got the interview, I would advice not to get too specific on your resume.

Short to the point outline your knowledge and experience but don’t include unnecessary details.

If you get the interview, answer truthfully and show that you got what it takes to take on the job. Say I don’t know (but I know where to look for an answer) if you don’t. Don’t lie.

Be yourself. If you are not and you will get the job you either gonne have to pretend being someone else during your time of stay or become yourself and have people ackowledge that you have misslead them during of the interview.

Grilling candidates reveals embellishments

In reply to Stretching truth = lying

Unfortunately, most people “embellish” their resume. Besides questions about what is actually on the resume, my colleagues and I grill the candidates technically about important concepts. The goal is not who gets the most questions right, but rather to find out how technically competent they are.

I find this method weeds out the liars and embellishers. Scenario questioning shows analytical thinking ability, and generally tough questions show how they handle pressure.

Jfosc

In reply to Grilling candidates reveals embellishments

Sounds good although you need to be able to do that without embarassing yourself (I assume you can). I was once at an “grill” interview in which I got into a simmilar situation.

After I answered the questions either correctly or “I don’t know”, I started to ask questions myself.

After a while, I have realized that the person “grilling me” was basically working according to a script with the list of questions that he has put together (and looked up the answers of course).

When I asked return questions more “in-depth” on the subject I noticed that they knew little about topics they were asking about.

At some point I asked something along the lines of “how important is it to understand what the questions mean”. Then I asked how do they deal with situations like these in their environment.

They started to draw out a bunch on unbelievable non-sense while I continued to ask questions.

I have had an amusing afternoon and did not felt dissapointed at all. I have left the interview saying: “Although I would be delighted to join a company like yours, I have realized that my competences are far below your expectations.”

grillers

In reply to Jfosc

You’re right about how ridiculous it is to be grilled by someone with a script. There are places that give an interviewer a huge list of questions on a specific skillset from which they can pick randomly. You mess up on the random questions, they get to assume you don’t know anything. What a loss for the hiring company !

Grilling Clarification

In reply to grillers

I am usually verbose but decided to keep my previous post short and to the point, but I feel I need to clarify.

IMHO, “grilling” needs to be done by a qualified person and at the correct level. I’ve been in the IT industry for 15 years, yet I make it a point to ask questions appropriate to the position and the expected experience level of the candidate. I?m not a recruiter ? I work for a tech company and I have hands-on, project management, and consulting background.

I sometimes do ask questions beyond the expected experience level to see what the responses are – as I said before, a wrong answer or “I don’t know” is not necessarily a bad thing. I use it to gauge their knowledge and experience, and I explain that to the candidates. It would be ridiculous if I were to think someone with 5 years experience would know as much as someone with 10 years experience, but these types of questions have worked for me. I make it a point to be completely upfront and honest with the candidates as I expect that from them. If they don?t know something, they don?t know it. If they know it, they know it. That?s reality. No one knows everything. I am more interested in someone?s abilities to be technically flexible and learn rather than someone who has used a specific product. I?m more concerned that they understand the fundamentals of how e-mail works rather than whether or not they have used MS Exchange. Some people admin Exchange and don?t know what they?re doing ? I?d rather have the person who understands how things should work and then have them learn the tool.

I look at everything in terms of applicability to the position: skills, work ethic, ability to work under pressure, career-mindedness, and more. I don?t believe in working off a script ? I conduct interviews with nothing more than a review of the candidate?s resume as applicable to the position. I also try to spend at least one hour with each candidate. I still feel that?s not enough time to really get to know someone well, but I don?t feel it does a candidate justice to judge them solely on their resume and 15 minutes of time. I?ve interviewed good people with terrible resumes and not-so-good people with great looking resumes. Let?s face reality – technical people, including myself, sometimes are not that great at selling themselves. I try to provide a venue in which they can sell themselves by showing me their real skills ? not by how well their resume looks on paper.

Behavioural interviewing

In reply to Grilling Clarification

One of the “grilling” techniques I’ve used at my current and former employers is based on behavioural interviewing.

The idea isn’t to uncover factual problems with the resume, but more to gauge how someone approaches problems or issues. They often start with “Tell me about a time….”

I will admit my company works with a script for these, but the script is only to make sure we ask the right questions – the important thing is the ability to probe and ask followup questions.

I will admit that at a previous employer, I had a staff member from another department interview for my group. They had loads of ambition, but not the right experience. We had to interview as a courtesy, and I used it as an opportunity to do some coaching which she sorely needed.

On the experiencial questions, usually the closing question is something like, what did you learn, or if you had to do it over again, what would you change. She was so overconfident, she told me over and over again that she thought her approach was great and that she wouldn’t change a thing. So I had to resolve in my mind that either she was a) absolute perfection, b) totally self absorbed and slightly dellusional or c) very afraid of being honest. Because if we don’t look at how we handle tough situations and learn to improve, we can’t be good managers.

James

Tell me about a time.

In reply to Behavioural interviewing

Thanks for the flash back James. I had an interview once where I did a panel interview and they focused on behavioral style questions; it was the worst interview I have ever gone to and I have been to many. In this instance 5 people sat on one side of a long conference table with me on the other side (Me vs Them) they took turns asking me questions like ?Tell me about a time you helped someone with something they were doing wrong? Just the fact that I had never been in a five person tag team interview was enough to get me nervous and asking these insane (in my eyes) questions through me for a loop.

I myself do not believe in either of two practices and would seriously reconsider if I would work for anyone which employed such tactics. Now that I am an in demand professional I find myself interviewing companies while they interview me. I know there are allot of others out there that do the same; friends of mine have walked out on interviews; a practice I do not recommend by the way; when the interviewer took on a style they did not find appropriate.

Steve

Scripts and a Panel o’ Candidates

In reply to Behavioural interviewing

“I have some questions that we have to ask all the candidates …” ACK!!!

I was to an interview recently where 5 candidates were brought in for quesitons from the interview “team”. It descended into 4 guys defending themselves and me sitting back taking in the view.

Afterwards, I was taken aside and asked why I had so little to say in ther “interview”. I said that it was because it seemed more like being with the losing team in the boardroom on “The Apprentice”, and when they were ready to schedule a personal interview, they could call me.

Haven’t heard back, and moved on.

Behavioural verus panel

In reply to Behavioural interviewing

I like behavioural questions. Gives you a chance to see them thinking on their feet, not rehashing scripted stuff. I think it actually gives the less polished people a chance.

But I hate panels. I have occasionally had my boss or someone from HR sit in on the interview to provide a second opinion, but panels are so formal, I don’t feel you can actually have the candidate relax, and therefore you dont get to know them.

James

Re: Behavioural interviewing

In reply to Behavioural interviewing

I was Director of Ops at a small ISP (approx 8000 customers) and I did the hiring of our techs, a plus on my side was that I had been a tech for 2 years and before that built computers for 4 years for another company, before moving to the ISP, and up to Dir. so I also did the training of the people I hired. I had no script and I would include at some point the other techs in the interview process and let them ask questions to see if the applicant would fit in with the group. Also I would put them in front of a computer station and ask them to do something, whatever came to mind at the moment. That was a real test of ability no matter degree, certification, or whatever they claimed to have.

Now that I am laid off, I have thought of ’embelishing’ my resume because of the dozens of interviews I have been to in the last 6 months I found that the interviewer really didn’t know much about IT. I would answer questions and looked to be talking way over they’re head. The only thing they would end with is ‘do you have any certifications?’ yes, I do, but my real world experience goes way beyond any cert I have at the moment. It’s tough out there competing with kids that went through alot of ‘cram’ cert programs which looks good, but have no real world experience…which is hard to demonstrate while sitting in a cushy seat in the HR office.

there ya go, my first vent!
Jeff
IT guy

I could not agree more

In reply to Grilling Clarification

I think jfosc has hit the nail on the head. I too have conducted a lot of interviews and I do not have a scorecard that I use to keep track of the right and wrong answers. What I look for is what is commonly known as ‘street smarts’. Let’s be clear, I still look for the basic skills required for the job, but it must go beyond that. Soft skills are just as, if not more important that just the hard skills. It is the soft skills that are truly tested with the right questions. I don’t ask questions where there is a right or wrong answer, but rather I challenge the candidate and see how they react under pressure. You can find out a lot about a person based on how they answer the tough questions.

Soft Skills and Pressure

In reply to I could not agree more

A few of years ago, at an interview where I was sure I wasn’t what they were looking for (too old), I answered the question “how do you handle pressure” with “I bottle it up inside, then I go and get schnockerd at the Legion Hall after work.”

Was there for years until the owner retired and dissolved the law practice.

The one time

In reply to I could not agree more

I had someone try to trick me with cleverly worded technical questions, I managed to see right through them. Didn’t like the guy, but I took the job knowing he wasn’t the boss, but a peer of the boss. A few years later he left and came back as a contractor. I ended up having him work for me, and it fell to me to fire him. Its a small world after all, and first impressions do stick.

James

At the same time…

In reply to grillers

I’ve heard stories from a co-worker about people like a kid that put down he “worked with .dll’s” on his resume, then was asked in the interview to give what the anacronym actually meant, or even what a *.dll was…

He couldn’t.

Weeding out the embellishers

In reply to Grilling candidates reveals embellishments

One candidate (years ago) claimed to have extensive experience with “dose.” As we were trying to figure out what he was referring to, it hit us when he mentioned somthing about “dose” 6.2, he was talking about DOS 6.2. Ok, so he has a computer and can read the DOS prompt startup message. “Thank you. Don’t call us, we’ll call you.”

Another one was talking about his “extensive” experience working with a “gwee.” Huh? What’s a “gwee?” Excuse me sir, would you mind spelling out “gwee?” “Oh sure: G-U-I” (ok… NEXT!)

If you’re going to BS your way in, be sure to pronouce your acronyms correctly and know what they mean.

Dose, Gwee and Sequel?

In reply to Weeding out the embellishers

This was interesting. The oft used ‘word’ for the GUI is goo-ey (which is horrid – please say Gee You Eye), but with an accent not quite like yours, could be heard as ‘Gwee’. Another mis (yes mis)-pronunciation often used is ‘Sequel’ for SQL (Ess-Que-Ell). I was once told that it is correct to say Ess-Que-Ell and wrong to say ‘Sequel’ but that ‘it is considered impolite to correct them’ Now I know there are a lot of Microsoft Sycophants use this site and a lot of (all?) Microsoft SQLlers say ‘Sequel’. I’m dreadfully sorry but (and I’ve been in this business for 25 years) say ‘Sequel’ and I cannot help but think you’re ignorant – I KNOW this is wrong and I try hard ‘cos I’ve met many competent ‘Sequel’ programmers – I even work with some but I would not refuse them a job based on that pronunciation – just as long as they realised they sound as daft as someone saying ‘Neck’ for NEC or ‘Dee-ee-Cee’ for DEC.

Holy War Alert! Holy War Alert!

In reply to Dose, Gwee and Sequel?

http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/holy-wars.html

SQL vs Sequel

In reply to Dose, Gwee and Sequel?

I read somewhere, probably in a Microsoft document, that “sequel” was the correct pronunciation. Wikipedia says otherwise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL

And there’s this thread: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/forum/General_C8/Databases_and_SQL_F36/Pronunciation_P238695/

So I stand corrected, and will curb my tongue to saying “es cue ell” in the future.

Although my favorite is:
http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/2004/02/11/pronunciation_of_sql

If we could all agree on this, then we can safely squirrel away all of our data.

Ah! Vindicated.

In reply to SQL vs Sequel

Wow – followed your links Sterling, and other links from them. I can see this debate has been going on for some time. Love the Squirrel link (fishbowl) – most amusing.

In my day

In reply to Ah! Vindicated.

The big debate was how to pronounce SCSI.

The first computer show on TV, was a PBS show called the computer chronicles, and once a year(in the 80s) they did a big Trivia contest, pitting the east coasters (IBM/Lotus) versus the west coasters (MS/Apple). One memorable one had Bill Gates and Steve Jobs on one side with Mitch Kapor (Lotus 1-2-3 author) on the other. One of the questions involved the pronouciation of SCSI – the answer was east coasters pronounced it (SeCSI/Sexy) while west coasters pronounced it (SCuSI/or Scuzzy).

And sequel that was an Indiana Jones or Star wars movie that came out after the first ones.

James

So then, is it…

In reply to Dose, Gwee and Sequel?

Lin-ux (sounds like it’s spelled) or lye-nux (after Linus Torvalds)?

(I think Linus Torvalds actually said he didn’t really care… But I wonder what the standard is.)

Lynn-ux

In reply to So then, is it…

I also read somewhere that Lin-us Torvalds said he didn’t care. Although, he said, it should be ‘lynn-ux’, he really didn’t care what people called it, as long as they used it. Which is fair enough I suppose. But I use Lynn-ux just ‘cos I like to be right :o)

stretching the truth

In reply to Stretching truth = lying

I agree. Stretching the truth is a lie and I garantee you it will catch up with you! Suppose you landed this great job on the premis that you know what you lied about on your resume and the employer asks for papers or some other proof, What are you going to do then?You are going to be standing red faced is what you are going to do! Not to mention that you have just showed that your charactor is not up to moral values. I have never lied on a resume and when I don’t have the appropiate papers or school training I say so but I do stress the fact that I have had the hands on experiance. This has always been a great avenue because I have gotten jobs with my hands on training and my charactor hasn’t been blimmished. Keep your charactor intact and tell the truth! You will feel better about yourself and they will think better of you for it.

Stretching The Real Truth

In reply to stretching the truth

I also agree that stretching the truth the way you put is a lie. Pretending to have a diploma that you don’t it is a lie. But I think that most people just “enhance” their resume rather than lie. For example, a person that managed 5 others at the most, might say in the resume that he managed up to 10 people. Someone might have a real degree, for example NT Administrator, but he never worked as one. I myself used to work as a DBA for a number of years and I have all the diplomas to prove it, but the last time I worked as a DBA was 4 years ago. One might say that he was in charge of a budget of 2 millions when in fact he was only allowed to take decissions of up to 100K. And so on. I think that in most cases people refer to these kind of “true facts” and not to plain lies.

Use Referals instead of imbellishments

In reply to stretching the truth

If you really want to sell yourself read a book about marketing. Even the worst experience can be spun to sound great and in fact when you were having your worst job, you probably learned more than at your best one. I always try to leave a place with several friends who owe me a reference. If you help someone else, they will always help you.

I agree

In reply to Use Referals instead of imbellishments

I completely agree after all, whether white, gray or black ,a lie is a lie is a lie.

Advice to live by

In reply to stretching the truth

I totally agree with your reply. Lying is never the answer.

Guess who gets the job – plus lie in reverse or ommit things?

In reply to stretching the truth

It is very often the case that not the best professional gets the job, but the one who sells himself/herself best. Sad but TRUE! This applies to most entry to intermediate level positions. The interviewers know that all of the selected candidates have the potential to get the job done – proper schooling, cetification, etc. But they choose the one they would like to work with – appearance, manners, sense of humor, all come into play.

So if you are highly individualistic I think it is fair to tell the interviewer that you are a team player. Just because you like privacy in your work doesn’t mean you will not help when asked. For me it is OK to lie on that level, because it is unfair to discriminate against a candidate based on his natural predispositions, yet recruiters do it all the time. Some interviewers have asked me about my favorite sport – a veiled question that aims to determine if you prefer team sports vs. idividual ones. I have a few ready replies – soccer, basketball, baseball. I played soccer in highschool and likedit a lot but I love tennis a lot more because it shows what a single person is really capable of under pressure. Much better in terms of forging a professional character.
Furthermore, if your future boss is the interviewer, he will be likely to pick someone who will not threaten his position. Displaying some mediocrity would tip the scale in your favor. Strange how you can lie in the opposite direction. This is particularly true when you want to get a job you are overqualified for. In that case, I consider omitting things on your resume that make you look too good. Is that lying? If it is, I think it is fair game.

Never Second-Guess an Interviewer

In reply to Guess who gets the job – plus lie in reverse or ommit things?

It seems to me that these scenarios that are being presented in this topic apply mostly to people who are looking for a job via resumes, arguably the most ineffective way to find a job there is.

If you have been referred to a company by someone they trust, I suspect that they are not going to ask you goofy, non-relevant questions like, “what is your favourite sport?”

If they do ask, you might as well tell them the truth, and show them who you really are, because you both have to live with the decision to hire you or not, and if you get hired, and you are not the person they though you were, you will both be miserable.

As to questions from an interviewer that are inappropriate, answer them any way you like. Myself, I would probably tell them that the question is inappropriate. Some interviewers respect that. Some will ask the question just to see if you will defend yourself. You will never really know their true motivation, so why try and second-guess it?

It is true that companies hire on the basis of who they like. That is because new hires have to “play well with others.” No secret there. The ones with people skills are always going to have an edge over the anti-social types.

When I hire someone I am very forthcoming with our expectations. We know what those are because we have been frustrated by employees who have told us they were something they were not. That is bad for both the company and the employee.

We give our new prospective employees something to do that relates directly to their job requirements. This tells us a lot about whether they are capable of doing the job, following instructions, etc. A probationary period tells us the rest. We generally know in the first two weeks whether someone is going to work out or not, regardless of what they have said in their interview.

Indeed.

In reply to Stretching truth = lying

I would not suggest doing that. Almost all applications/written offers state that if *ANY* information is found to be false, the employee may be terminated immediately. I know someone who did just this for an accounting position. He said he had a bachelors degree from [insert university name here], which was really his only fib on the application as I understand it. Anyways, he got the job, and did relatively well at it. As a follow up, several months later, they actually did verify his credentials(or lack thereof). He was terminated immediately.

CRobinson is right, degrees and certification training are not at all ‘goofy details’. They are one of the primary things that will get you into a position. Employers don’t care about what you know, unless you have a piece of paper to prove it.

When I first saw the post I thought you were going to say something like, stretching the truth about your true knowledge or experience with something. i.e. – saying that you are a PHP guru because you developed one website using PHP. If you have a good knowledge of something, but aren’t exatly an ‘expert’… you could *maybe* stretch that out, because it’s simply an opinion, and not really a provable fact. If you consider yourself an expert, that’s great; but you can’t tell them you have a degree in computer science because you tought yourself how to build a computer and a bit of C++.

Yeah I wouldnt recomend….

In reply to Stretching truth = lying

I wouldnt recomend lying about having a degree or certifications. When I applied for my last two jobs they actually called the college I graduated from and verified my cert. I would hate to “get past the screeners” and have the interviewer be an alumni or a fellow techie and ask for your career ID. I would be straight forward with them as much as possible. Employers ask for certain things for a reason, and if you dont meet those then try and circumvent the ssytem with using your experience instead. But outright lying wont get you the job.

The problem is with titles?

In reply to Stretching truth = lying

Ever do stuff or been responsible for stuff not related to your title? We all have! To get ahead – you have to and the company you work for WILL take advantage you and your good work ethics.

Ever work for a company that uses titles not commonly used by the rest of the world?

They do this in order to make it harder for you to find your next job! Screeners/Recruiters look for titles first, then the details. In other words, they may only read the details if the title matches.

This is and has been the only area that I change to match what I actually do for the company.

NEVER claim to have a degree or credential you DO NOT have!

For example:

Take an engineering management position at three different companies.

At company A the title is Manager I (II, III, or IV)but nothing reveals what the person managed and most companies will not reveal any more details than that.

At Company B the title (same work) is Engineer IV but the title itself does not reveal that you managed people.

At Company C the title is Module Development Manager.

In each case – I would call the title Engineering Manager but list “internal” title within the Job Duties description. Reasonable people and anyone that’s been around will understand what your are trying to accomplish.

Is it lying – some say yes – but it works both ways because the company you work for is doing the same things by hiding what you do behaind a “title”.

It’s tempting to embellish your accomplishments because it is too difficult to verify them legally. Most HR departments will not (for legal reasons) reveal much beyond your last title, and employment dates.

Lying’s wrong – mmm-kay?

In reply to Stretching truth = lying

Lying on your resume has nothing to do with your skills sets and everything to do with you as a person.

Sooner or later you get caught and then that blemish is much darker than not being able to do a job for lack of knowledge – it becomes not being able to be trusted to do a job for lack of morality.

Think about that.

Like none of you have never done this!!!

In reply to Stretching truth = lying

I find it quit disheartening that there are so many to quickly point the finger and reprimand something that most folks have done to a point. I would have to agree that a blatant lie is wrong, however there are so so many ways to creatively state things = “stretch the truth”. I have been in the position of actually being on the hiring end of things and being very technical myself i always hold any potential employee to anything on their resume. However when something is stated in such a way, as was suggested earlier, that states they are working on it versus have it, i never held the person accountable. Besides when these recruiters run queries they are looking at keywords not the person or resume directly as they are usually not technical. Thereby working those keywords into your resume you will get seen more often = more potential work.

Interview to the Resume

In reply to Like none of you have never done this!!!

Most interviewers use the resume as a guide to the interview. If you have embellished your resume, you could easily become trapped by the interviewers’ questions that you might not be able to satisfactorily answer. Then, you have wasted everybody’s time — including your own. The Marketing term for what you might want to use in your resume is “puffery.” Puffing is not the same as lying, and is often found on well-written resumes. Getting caught with a lie on your resume is grounds for termination at virtually all places of employment.

Speak for yourself…

In reply to Like none of you have never done this!!!

ifican said, “Like none of [YOU] have never done this!!!… I find it quit disheartening that there are so many to quickly point the finger and reprimand something that [MOST FOLKS] have done to a point.”

Are you admitting to this? You are pointing the finger at others but not admitting to this yourself… you have a lot of nerve ASSuming that most others on this board have lied on their resume. I am not so naive to think that this does not happen, but I am not going to assume that MOST people do this.

My answer is No, I have not ever done this — the credentials on my resume were EARNED through (as some one stated previously) BLOOD, SWEAT, AND TEARS (well, no tears really)! My wife and two children can attest to that fact, as they too have made sacrifices for me to achieve the credentials I have.

So my advice to you Sir (or Ma’am), is SPEAK FOR YOURSELF and don’t presume to know the people who post on this board!

Been there lost that… to a liar … and more than once

In reply to Speak for yourself…

Frankly, I’ve not lied on my resume. Ever. And yes, I’ve lost out on promotions and positions and later found the person hired either lied, or exaggerated so badly they couldn’t do the job (for instance, someone taking a C+ class and, midway through the class, listing themselves as a certified programmer. I was in the same class, but missed out because “I wasn’t qualified”.

It does come back, though. Lately, more and more, I hear of people being burned for lying on their resume. I’m torn, because people I like have been lost to the company. But I am so HAPPY to know that my honesty has kept me safe. (OTOH, the liars got experience from the jobs they couldn’t do, to list on their next positions. Most of them seem to have done relatively well for themselves. sigh)

I hear you on this one

In reply to Been there lost that… to a liar … and more than once

As I was home schooling myself, (No distant education, just home schooled.)I found out that it is a no win situation.

I am now certified A+ and Network+, studying for Server+ at present. People out there are looking for more and more Microsoft people for their company.

This is where I have the problem. Lots of people who have to learn the stuff on their own do have it harder because they have nobody to guide them.
Those people who went to school and just studied exams and aren’t doing any practical call themselves certified.

While there are people who actually practice the stuff they learn on a daily basis after writing the exams (and while they are learning it), seem to do better in the workforce.

Those people who have crammed for exams and just studied to pass the exams are in my view dishonest on their resume. Those people who have no schooling and work extra hard to achieve their certifications and write the exams and pass are the real technicians in the workforce.

Just recently I got my first client where I live. I told him, after he saw my qualifications, that I’d work on his network at his house. I solved the problem with ease.

Later, he asked me to work on one of his computers in his restraunt business. It took me a little longer because I never had much experience, but I didn’t charge him for the extra time I took.

Now I have my first client and hopefully word will go around.

All we can do is try harder and harder and hopefully companies can slowly weed through the imposters and hire the qualified people who know their stuff.

Who knows, maybe the companies can simulate a problem with their computers (or they had a similar problem that their former technician solved and see what the potential employees come up in their solution.

Difference between Lying and Padding

In reply to Like none of you have never done this!!!

I believe you’re talking about padding your resume and filling it with keywords, ifican, which is a common, acceptable, smart thing to do.

As far as I understand, the original question was, should he say he has a degree or certification that he doesn’t really have. The answer is flat-out no. That’s lying, and can get you fired (at minimum).

Padding, or putting “Some University – Bachelor of Network Engineering, Graduate 2007” or “MCSE Certification – Pending Exam” on your resume is fine if you’re working on your degree or certification. It communicates exactly what you’re doing, and if they have questions you can tell them the truth.

The interviewer knows by reading those examples that you want to show the credentials, but are in the process of earning them. They’ll be interested to know how you’re doing and when you’ll complete college/certification. That will let you talk about what you do know and let them see that you’re being honest with them.

This is what I did for my resume, and they were happy to hire a growing asset to their company.

I would recommend that the original poster discuss his resume with someone who specializes in job placement– they can help with keywords and accurately representing yourself on paper.

Tiddlywinks

In reply to Stretching truth = lying

Now here’s a true story (Seriously, not actually stretching the truth here!)

One of my friends finished Uni and was looking for a job. He noticed his CV was a bit sparse, and decided to fill it out a bit with supposed experiences and hobbies etc.

Where he fell down was the point where he wrote that he came third in the UK Tiddlywinks championships! He thought it was such a stupid, random thing to put on his CV, that it would just take up some space, and make it look like he had “varied” interests…

He got questioned on the Tiddlywinks topic in the interview, since it turned out, the Interviewer was actually the current UK Tiddlywinks champion, and knew that he’d been “stretching the truth”!

They then spoke about what else he may have elaborated on, and because of his inventiveness, and sense of humour, the guy got the job!

So, I don’t know, it could be seen as a good or a bad thing to lie on your CV… Although I would not lie about anything as important (or traceable) as degrees and accreditations…

Poor judgment

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Most resumes contain some untruths, a phenomenon that’s well known and has been well documented. We hiring managers know this and are consequently forced to waste time ferreting out the lies and the liars.

DO NOT DO IT. You’re panicked, and your good judgment is failing you. The object is not to get “past the screeners”, the object is to get a job. If you do manage to push a falsified resume through the HR sieve, believe me…anything you misrepresent WILL be found out, especially the kinds of “goofy details” (?) you’re talking about. You don’t think it’s easy to find out if a claimed degree or cert actually exists? You’re kidding yourself. The moment your falsehoods are found you’ve killed any chance you have of ever working for the company in question, or for any of the people who reviewed your resume and know you to be a liar.

I frankly can’t imagine a bigger mistake to make during the job hunt process. This one is fatal.

I go the other way

In reply to Poor judgment

First: amcol, always nice to see you out here with your sage advice.

Second: I tend to be more conservative on my resume, and this might be equally fatal. For instance, I write 15 years as a system admin rather than the actual 18.

Another is I list my two tech school certificates, rather than the certificates plus XX college credits.

Part of that may stem from a brief stint on the other side of the desk, and finding the “Bigger! Better!! Faster!!! More!!!!” resume writing style to be grating after while.

For instance, I did all the work to save a small retail firm some $8,900 a month in internet provisioning. They implemented the plan, but only after they RIF’d myself and ? the IT and sales department after a C-level bloodbath. Do I put that on the resume? No. It’s just too difficult to explain, and I do more work in the compliance area than in provisioning these days anyway.

Finance Officer at the Legion post hasn’t been on the resume in a while either. IT Chair for a local charity is awful close to coming off as well.

Maybe I’m doing it wrong too.

A paradox

In reply to I go the other way

You know, you raise a very interesting point.

I actually do the same thing…rather than inflate my credentials and qualifications on my resume, I actually understate them. I don’t list any technology specific skills, and despite the fact I have almost 35 years of professional experience my resume is only 1 1/2 pages long.

I do so because I don’t want to be pigeonholed. Any position I go for is a senior management or leadership opportunity, and my knowledge of Oracle or Unix or Windows or IBM/360 Assembler (boy, did I just date myself) is irrelevant.

Is that misrepresentation? Lying by omission rather than by commission? I don’t know the answer, I’m just posing the question.

it’s not a simple answer though

In reply to A paradox

Yes it is lying by omission.

No, it is not a lie that employers will fire you over.

It’s more along the lines of tuning your resume to reflect what the employer wants from your experience than adding something that isn’t true.
If I’m applying for an IT job, I don’t list the positions with restaurants, yet that is 20 years worth of skills I have available, most of which are directly applicable to every job.
[ meeting deadlines, multitasking, teamwork, high pressure environments, customer service skills, problem solving… ]

Why would anyone hiring for IT department want to know which restaurants I worked for, in the hiring process? They wouldn’t. During the interview a few examples of problem solving under pressure from them show where the skills were developed, which is enough information for them. [ Naturally also some examples from IT related work as well to show that I have managed to transfer the skills to IT needs. ]

I agree with Jaqui on this one.

In reply to it’s not a simple answer though

There are a great many things that I’ve done in IT over the years (even before we called it IT) that are *very* rarely included on a resume for a job, because they simply don’t pertain to what the employer is looking for.

Since I’m an IT Contractor this means that almost every resume that I submit has to be “tuned” for what the employer is seeking. If I were to introduce lie (other than one of omission), I would have to make sure that I propogate it to every resume I submit, for the rest of my career.

Aside from being dishonest, it would be unethical and a heck of a lot of work.

Stick to the truth. You’ll be a happier person.

Which way is up

In reply to I agree with Jaqui on this one.

You both (KaceyR and Jaqui) seem to be saying that omitting credentials and qualifications from a resume is, in fact, a lie of omission and therefore dishonest. Yet you’re also saying that you both adjust your resumes situationally to conform to the requirements of the position you’re pursuing.

If that’s your thesis then it seems inconsistent to me.

I also agree that when one has certain experiences and/or qualifications that are not germane to the position one is seeking, there’s no point in including that information on the resume. Am I to feel guilty or less than ethical or dishonest because I’ve done so?

Every single piece of information on my resume is the absolute unadulterated truth. I include every job I’ve had because I’ve always been employed as an IT professional and I want to show the continuity of a 35 year career. However, any position I had prior to 1990 is simply listed by company name, dates I was there, and the title I had…nothing more. Any papers I published prior to 1990 are not listed…the material is stale and not reflective of the value I can add to organizations today.

In your view, am I doing something wrong? If so, what and why?

Well I don’t see it as a lie

In reply to Which way is up

and as a relative junior to yourself with a mere 25 years of employ, there’s no way I can include everything on my cv even if it was germane. Damn thing would be a book and it would get binned.
Anyway in my experience as a developer the more skills asked for, the less that are required.

by definition

In reply to Which way is up

when not including data it’s a lie, as the data given isn’t complete.

BUT, extraneous information that isn’t requested by the employer being removed isn’t a negative.
It’s not seen as a lie by society, outside of a court of law. [ the oath being: the truth, the WHOLE truth… ]

It’s an accepted form of dishonesty, just like diplomacy is.

As a matter of interest

In reply to Which way is up

Desirous of complete information and thinking an expert opinion would help, and because I’m very concerned about this issue since I always do everything totally honestly and ethically and would never want to be thought of in any other way for any reason, I consulted with several senior recruiters I know to get their views.

These are people who are at such firms as Korn Ferry, Challenger Grey, and Russell Reynolds. They’re mostly retainer recruiters, some contingency, and all work to recruit mid-level managers through the highest level of senior executives.

I asked five different individuals, and every one of them said the omission of credentials and/or qualifications from a resume is not considered either dishonest or unethical. Three of them were a little quizzical as to why one would do that, and I explained it was mostly a matter of resume length and applicability of the skill or experience to the situation. They all said in that case it was a perfectly acceptable practice.

Thinking this particular group might be considered to have suspect ethical motives (they don’t, but I like to be thorough) I also asked a half dozen or so colleagues in as many different companies who are all hiring managers what they thought. Every one of them said they had personally omitted credentials for the same reasons, and would not look upon a candidate who had done so any differently than someone who submitted their entire autobiography in place of a resume.

Submitted to this discussion thread for what it’s worth.

Interesting point

In reply to I agree with Jaqui on this one.

During my last job-hunting process, many of the agencies and head hunters I dealt with suggested that I ‘fine tune’ my resume to meet the potential employer’s needs. Isn’t this just another form of lying? I prefer to spell out all my relevant skills as I feel they speak for themselves. Fine tuning the resume and leaving out information that may not be relevant to the job is lying by omission, isn’t it?

yup, it is….

In reply to Interesting point

it is not a lie that will get you fired, since you are not adding qualifications, you are omitting irrelevant ones.

As I put it before, what person interviewing for an IT job is going to be concerned that I lied, if I don’t put down the fact that I am a chef?

where is the relevance between being a chef or being a network admin / programmer/ website designer….

No, its not a lie. It’s clarification

In reply to Interesting point

Look. There are two types of resume hunters: Word search and exact match. IF you are looking for a beginning programming position (or maybe an entry level IT position because we’re in another wave of resession and downsizing) and you list skills vastly beyond what’s being hired, the HR person will decide either (a)He’s so over qualified, he’ll never work for this pay . or (b)Yes he has 30 years of experience, but he doesn’t say he’s ever done THIS and THAT at the same time, so he’s not qualified or (c)His resume is too large. Either I don’t believe it, or I just want a junior person.

Seriously. I’ve had people interview me and tell me: “Yes, you can obviously do the job. But, you’ve never stay with the company. You have too many skills that will pay too much more when the market turns around.”

Like most, I could do a five page resume, but it’s a light 1 page. I list 2 degrees, and one cert, but not the ?? hundreds of credits (I think 500ish) I have from 6 community colleges, 3 universities and some just fun stuff I liked.

If I see an opening, I look for the requirements, then customize my resume to highlight the jobs where I’ve done those requirements. In the interview, if they ask about something else needed, it’s easy enough to pull from memory what it was, where it was, and how it did it then and how I could do it better now. (and of course, that’s key. If you can’t do it better now, you either didn’t learn anything, or you’re lying about what you did. I suppose you could be perfect as well, but um… not too many of us are.)

last 10 years max

In reply to A paradox

I also learned that any employer is only interested on what you did the last 10 years max. When you have 10 or more years experience it’s just impossible to put everything on your resume. I don’t see that as a lie at all.

Inverted Pyramid

In reply to last 10 years max

The amount of time we spend persuing the resume is inversely proportionate to how recent the information is.

Of course in IT, because tech skills get stale, we are more interested in what you have done recently.

I will spend a lot of time looking at the job description for the last two jobs. And progressively less time on the subsqeuent jobs, until it becomes skimming(but I do read everything).

Omitting jobs that aren’t relevant from a long time ago isn’t lying. If someone wants to know what I did between graduation in 1983 and my first computer job in 1985, I’m happy to tell them.

But there are differences for different professions and even types of professions. If you are an academic applying for a university professor’s position, they do want to know everything you’ve ever had published, even if it was 20 or 30 years ago. But the accepted standard in IT is a 2 page resume, and going back 10 to 15 years is fine.

James

IMHO a cv is simply evidence to support an application…

In reply to last 10 years max

To tell a direct untruth is not legal and not moral.

I see neither a legal nor a moral bar to providing a prospective employer only with information that he has specifically requested.

When answering an advert requiring (eg) 4 Yrs ms sql, 5 yrs visual studio and 3 years .net – if I have the experience I say yes and give a couple of examples. I expect to be required to amplify during interview. Detail starting 40 years ago is just fluff and totally irrelevant, but available if anybody is interested enough to ask.

Resume v. Application (OPINION)

In reply to IMHO a cv is simply evidence to support an application…

I tend to spend hours fine-tuning a resume, only to be greeted at the door of an interview with a generic “Job Application”, onto which I have to disassemble and reassemble my resume, never with any particular degree of success.

I am heartened to see, however, in recent months that applications no longer require SSN.

From the “I’m interviewing them as much as they are interviewing me” perspective, when the receptionist greets me with “Ms. So-and-So says that you’ll want to fill out these forms.”, it indicates that Ms. So-and-So does not know jack about me.

It would seem that if you want me to sign off that my resume is the truth, and you want the limited ability to verify same, I could add some sort of standard disclaimer and signature line.

too much data

In reply to last 10 years max

sadly but truly too much data actually CAN hurt even if it is illegal. It can show your age which is not SUPPOSED to be a factor. If you have 35 years of skills it means you are in your 50s and can potentially retire, leave early, and YES more likely to die so sadly these factors do matter to a hiring agent. It also may mean they see you as a dinosaur. That you only know cobol (or as mentioned above IBM/360).

Take Credit for What You Have Done and Tune Your Resume

In reply to A paradox

Having done my share of proposal work, I have found that far too many resumes understate people’s capabilities and accomplishments.

A resume is a sales document. No, do not claim exprience that you do not have, but fairly report the the experience you do have. Those extra little accomplishments may make the difference between you getting the job or your company getting the contract.

Also, do not limit your resume to some arbitrary page count. Everyone should maintain a master resume including all work history and expect to tailor it to the specific job.

Underselling your skills and experience deprives you of potential income and deprives companies of potential expertise. Fully and proudly state your experience.

Accomplishment based resume

In reply to Take Credit for What You Have Done and Tune Your Resume

As a hiring manager, I want to know more than what jobs you held and what skills you used.

I want to know what opportunities you had and what you did with them. How did you positively influence the company/department you worked for. What did you do to save money, cut expenses, improve productivity, improve morale – anything.

Thats what will make you stand out from the pack. I want to know what you can contribute, and I need to know what you have contributed to know what you could contribute to my company.

James

Support Roles

In reply to Accomplishment based resume

What about the vast number of people who are hired to adequately hit their mark and say their lines?

A “bigger, better, faster, more!!” resume seems out of place with what is expected.

If you are applying for another job

In reply to Support Roles

and presumably a better one, is it enough to say, I did my job adequately? Probably not.

We all have accomplishements. It can be making some stubborn clients happy. It could be making something simpler, or making a good suggestion which gets followed up. Anything that shows you go beyond the bare minimum.

I have been in those support roles, for years(some years ago). And I could have found the things to put in the resume.

James

Accomplishments

In reply to Support Roles

I just found an old resume I used to use, wherein I had stripped out everything except verbs and adjectives. It printed in Courier 10.

Those were the days!!

the whole truth

In reply to Take Credit for What You Have Done and Tune Your Resume

First, DON’T LIE, especially about a degree that you don’t have. Info like that is WAY too easy to check out these days. But, I agree, DO let your resume speak to what you’ve accomplished, with what budget in what timeframe, etc. As one resume book said, “modesty is not a virtue when putting together a resume.”

27 years ago when I was a general surgeon

In reply to A paradox

If I put my medical background on an IT application, I couldn’t get anyone to look at me for any IT slot. Back then Unix people made more money than a GP (MD).

There also was no overhead in comparison. It seemed to me that there was no limit to how much easier life would be once I left the Marines to go strictly to IT.

It really isn’t a problem when people find out you have additional skills that they didn’t ask about. (I fly, also)

It is when you don’t have skills that you broadcast.

Some people assume you have no real education, I especially love a education PHD demanding I call them Doctor. I rarely use the Title. Since it isn’t in my area of work I find it irrelevant, and not worth me using.

Tim

Same here

In reply to A paradox

My resume does not include old, out of date “competancies” and
positions that are either irrelevant for the job and/or give away
my age. Although age discrimination is illegal, it does happen.
Documenting 15+ years of work experience meeting the
requirements should be enough.

On the issue of outright lying–I’ll never forget the interview I
was sent on where they kept asking me questions that had
nothing to do with my area of expertise (and that I could not
answer). After about 15 minutes I asked to see the resume the
interview had been referring to. The agent had fabricated a total
lie of a resume for me! I gave the interviewer a copy of my own
resume and apologized for wasting his time. They actually
offered me the job and said they would train me. (I didn’t take
the job because I did not want to send my career in that
direction).

There’s another side to this …

In reply to A paradox

How many of you have the experience that interviewers paint a fantastic picture of the project that never seems to materialise once they have you stuck in the job?

Lie, Never!!

In reply to A paradox

I would never lie on my resume. Just doesn’t seem to be the proper thing to do. If I can’t get a job on my own merits, then I don’t deserve it.

I agree, but what about this scenario

In reply to Poor judgment

Amacol, I fully agree with you about not lying on a resume, it will ALWAYS be found out! My question to you is what to do about the companies who are advertising for a positon requiring every skill known to IT plus the kitchen sink? (I have a hard time believing that they believe that a single person will be able to admin 2000 users, 250 servers, ecommerce sites, develop code, admin Oracle Databases, and have time over to do budgets, mentor junior staff, and all the other fun things.)

I have seen this becoming more and more prevalent over the last few years possibly as a defense against resume padding. Just curious about your view on this.

Thanks
Bob

unfortunately

In reply to I agree, but what about this scenario

this is not always the case.

I do appreciate your post as it is quite on the spot!

The problem sometimes however is that (and I have seen growing number of companies like this) that some will never find out if someone lied on their resume. As you pointed out, the requirements for the position were posted by someone who has little knowledge about the position itself. They are often satisfied if the resume matches their “list”

They have replaced their competent staff a long time ago. These days, they hire a bunch of “know it all” and feed the IT consulting companies in their areas in addition.

Most of all, they complain about how high the IT costs are in their company. As long as the company owners and board of directors are making the cash they don’t give a rat’s ass about “pity IT problems”.

From more marxist perspective (more of an open question): Would it be fair not to lie on your resume – just as much as corporate owners/ managers don’t lie to their employees?

Just fyi. I don’t lie on my resume, although I feel with capable people who sometimes have to put up with a small lie on their resume to get ahead in life. It’s less of the sin then murdering 1000 innocent people in Kenia in order to harvest its natural resources.

Totally in agreement here

In reply to I agree, but what about this scenario

I could not agree more. In my opinion, employers who advertise that they are looking for everything plus the kitchen sink, really don’t have a clue what the actual job entails, or in some cases, there is no job at all and they are just putting out ‘feelers’. Why do companies do this and is it really fair to employees looking for work?

Just a way of sorting

In reply to Totally in agreement here

Most hits = most likely apparently.
Fair that’s the weather whan it’s not raining, not a concept in business I can assure you.
Makes you laugh some of the lists they put out, 16 wildly different skills, suitable for recent graduate, f’wits, ignore them.

There was one bunch of gits farming cvs with ‘pretend jobs’ and then using the contact details to spam with offers.
Ethics of a starving rat some people.

Honesty?

In reply to Just a way of sorting

So why aren’t they just honest and say “We only want to pay US$20,800 for a 20-something recent college grad.”?

Local Law Firm “Reloads the File Cabinet”

In reply to Totally in agreement here

… about every 6 months or so. Never an actual position open, just the HR “professional” seems to feel she has to do it.

Integrity – Principle

In reply to Poor judgment

I agree FATAL. Do not do it. You lower yourself to a level you could never recover from if you got the job under false – elaborated stretched truths.

I too am looking for work – give yourself time, do not sacrafice your integrity or principles. These are desirable traits for any future employer.

Lying

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

I don’t care if you know your stuff. If you start off with a lie, how can we trust you?

I believe in being creative in resumes and emphasising your strengths. But saying you have a degree when you don’t or are certified when you are not is a lie.

Many firms will check. My last employer asked me for university transcripts after the first 3 months for their records.

I might hire you with no degree or no certs, but if you lie to me on your job application or with your resume, it is grounds for immediate dismissal in my company.

James

hey James,

In reply to Lying

need an undeumicated iggeranus with a bad attitude that doesn’t work day shift?
[ the night shift thing is usally a strong point ]

I have a few of those already….

In reply to hey James,

You’d fit in well….

But what I really need is a bilingual (French/English) programmer….

Back to the original thread, I was tempted in the process for this job, to do a little white lie.

The form I had to fill out before the interview had a space for my previous employment information, including a space for putting in my old salary. This was very worrying because my current employer was offering a job at a much lower rate of pay(2/3), and I thought I’d price myself out.

But I didn’t do that. I was honest and put my old salary in. As a result, I was hired and promoted on the first day.

James

~L~

In reply to I have a few of those already….

I knew that my antisocial tendencies would be usefull some day. 😀

even after 5 years of French in school, I don’t speak, read or write the language. the call for it here in BC is minimal.

now if I could learn Cantonese, Hindi, Tagalog, Japanese or Mandarin,then I would have use for the language and not forget it.

I’ve been in the situation of having to not put information into my Resume, as I had done the job of the person doing the hiring [ Kitchen Manager in restaurants ] and they are notoriously insecure in their jobs. If they knew I had done their job they wouldn’t hire me, I would be an “in house” replacement. [ just for the record, I wouldn’t take a kitchen manager’s job, I hate the being resonsible for the food but not being able to actually cook any of it 🙂 ]

Jaqui

In reply to ~L~

Your name is Jaqui and you live in Canada and you don’t speak a lick of French? That’s like a guy named Wong living in China who doesn’t speak a lick of Chinese. Or how about this one…a guy named Guido who lives in Brooklyn who hasn’t ever broken anyone’s leg.

By the way, when DO you sleep?

Yup Mark,

In reply to Jaqui

I live in Canada and don’t speak a lick of French, moreover, I don’t speak a lick of Quebecese either.
[ what’s spoken in Quebec is barely comprehensible to those from France, so it isn’t really French ]

sleep, normally, from around 6 am to 2 pm, if I don’t have something that requires me being up during that time.

Only French you need –

In reply to Yup Mark,

Ouvre le guillotine, sil vous plais?

(actually, I think is supposed to be:
Ouvre la fenetre, sil vous plais?

Did you see in the Friday yuk a while back where a French teacher asked her class to decide whether ‘computer’ should be masculine ‘le’ or feminine ‘la’?

yup….

In reply to Yup Mark,

also seen it as a kinder garten class was asked if computers are male or female, and they came up with the same answers.

Only know 3 words of French

In reply to Yup Mark,

Je me rends.

The vast majority of French speakers

In reply to Jaqui

are from Quebec. There are pockets in eastern and northern Ontario, New Brunswick and some scatterings across the rest of the country. In total 6.6 million Canadians claim French as their mother tongue out of 28 million Canadians (1996 Census)

In Toronto, there are roughly 6x more people who speak Chinese than French (as their First language). There are more Chinese, Italian, Portugese, Spanish, Polish, Tamil, Tagalog (Philipino) and Greek speakers in Toronto than French.
http://www.toronto.ca/quality_of_life/diversity.htm

I hear French everyday in our call centre, but on the subway – its pretty rare.

We had some mandatory French classes in grade school, but it was optional in high school. Sadly my high school french was insufficient to chat up young French speaking women when I was in University.

James

Mandatory French classes

In reply to The vast majority of French speakers

Seems to me that having mandatory French classes in Canada is like having mandatory Spanish classes in the U.S. Or to narrow it down even more, it would be like having mandatory Spanish classes in Texas or California (states with a high population of Mexican immigrants).

James, I did take Spanish in high school, but like your French, my Spanish was insufficient to chat up young Mexican women. The conversation would come to a screeching halt after I said “buenos dias, chica bonita” (translation, “hello, pretty girl”) haha

Mandatory French – the differnce

In reply to The vast majority of French speakers

is consitutional.

Though many (westerners especially) grumble, when the British defeated the French in the French and Indians war (good PBS series on it lately, though very American centric, too much on Washington who was just a young officer), they guarenteed the French living in Quebec the right to use their own language, have their own church and education system in French, even to using a French style legal system (Quebec act of 1760).

Those rights were further upheld in the British North America Act(1867), the legislation that created Canada and acted as our consitution until we created our own in the 1980s.

Spanish in the US never had that long historical tradition, its more of a demographic thing. Was there anything about it in the Texas constituion when Texas became independant?

James

Spanish and the Texas Constitution

In reply to The vast majority of French speakers

This is the first I’ve ever thought about Spanish and the Republic of Texas’ constitution. I don’t think it would be much of a stretch of the imagination to say that there is no way in the world that Texas’ constitution would have made any concessions to anything Mexican-related. It more likely (though doubtful) may have been the opposite–where Spanish would have been totally outlawed. Remember that Texas was ruled by Mexico before the war for independence so I’m assuming that before that Spanish would have been the official language in the Texas territory. A lot of Spanish culture carried over and is still present today. Nowadays Mexican-Americans and descendents still speak Spanish regularly but there is no effort to give it special status except that some public schools are required to teach classes for Spanish speakers who do not understand English. To me, that’s a crock of crap. Why should my taxes go to support a kid getting an education in Texas and he won’t even be fluent in English when he graduates?

Spanish, Texas and Bumper Stickers

In reply to The vast majority of French speakers

Bumper sticker the other day:

Welcome to the United States
Now speak English

Bumper sticker

In reply to The vast majority of French speakers

Good one!

RE: Mandatory French & Westerners

In reply to The vast majority of French speakers

It’s not the letting those of French descent have their own language.

it’s the forcing us to learn something we have zero use for that causes most of us from western Canada to get pissed at the federal government and quebec.

My own opinion:
IF someone from quebec want to come to BRITISH Columbia, they better know english if they expect to communicate with anyone. [ population of BC is approx 2 million, the francophone population is roughly 20 thousand. ]

Non-Disclosure Agreements

In reply to I have a few of those already….

Most organizations require you to sign a non-disclosure agreement. This agreement covers ALL company information, including salary.

Thus, you can tell whomever is interviewing and asks about salary, the following statement:

“My current/previous employer had me sign a non-disclosure agreement on company information, which includes salary. I am sure that you would wish for me honor your company’s non-disclosure agreements, as I do with organizations I was formerly associated.”

After I’ve said that to companies and the federal government in the past, no one has asked twice.

Je parle francais!

In reply to I have a few of those already….

Si vous avez la desire…

si vous plait…

Tim

Ah bon que tu parle francais.

In reply to Je parle francais!

Moi, je parle juste un petit peu.

Mais ou est tu? Mon bureau c’est en Toronto.

James

Moneco (Montreal engineering Company) veteran

In reply to Ah bon que tu parle francais.

Je vais Paris pour Moneco. Je vais tout le mond Pour Moneco. Yuck.

Tim

Never

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

You could be the best thing since sliced bread, save your employer millions a year ,eradicate world poverty, invent an FTL drive and prove the existence of god and still get sacked when you’re found out. Not worth it.

Lie on the resume…

In reply to Never

I have a friend who got his job by saying in his cv/resume that he had a degree, and then coming clean in the interview (which he would never have had if he hadn’t lied about the degree).
The (large) company liked him and employed him. Win-win all round I’d have thought.
Lying about certifications though, I’d see as something different. In some circumstances, a company needs to employ given numbers of staff with specific certifications so saying you’re certified when you’re not is a waste of your time and theirs.

As for lying about experience – look at this job spec I received recently:
“The technical skills required are Windows 95, 98, 2000, XP, nt, Unix, Exchange 5.5, 2000, Lotus Domino, TCP-IP ,DHCP, Cisco, 3Com, Anterasys, VPN, ISDN, PBX, Nortel, Avaya, Alcatel, ACD and routing. The successful candidate should have 10 years expertise …”
Anyone claiming to have 10 years “experise” in all of those would have to be a liar – so what do the agencies expect?

just what I said above

In reply to Lie on the resume…

Pete:

This was the second point in my posting above, sending out a spec like that is begging to be lied to. Not that it is ever a good idea, but what the heck is with the guys who write these specs and circulate them anyway?

Bob

10 years of experience

In reply to just what I said above

To be honest the resume wouldn’t answer the 10 year part but that is where the cover letter comes in. Start by indicating that XP (2 years max I think), windows 2000 (NOTICE the 2000 part as in 6 years max), win 98 (only 8 years possible unless you worked at Microsoft developing the thing)) and WIN95 all relate. If you started as a WIN95 admin in 95 then you have 11 years WIN OS management skills. Exchange 5.5 isn’t 10 years old. Mail administraion skills CAN be 10 years of skill. You don’t need to respond to the application as much as to the type of skill. If the person who is the initial reviewer can’t grasp this then you may as well not work there.

There is actually a reason for this

In reply to Lie on the resume…

I remember seeing ads in 1997 requiring 10yrs VB/SQL Server and 5 years of Java. Neither of these requirements were possible at the time. I wondered about this for years but discovered the answer just recently. I observed one of my corporate customers writing a extremely demanding ad for a position that was already filled (and had been for years). Many companies have H1-B Visa workers filling these positions. They have to demonstrate to INS that they try on a regular basis to find American workers before the Visa can be extended or renewed. So they place ridiculous ads that are intended to scare off applicants. Also, larger employers run these ads so that they can tell Congress that they are unable to fill these positions with Americans in an attempt to get Congress to raise the cap on the number of Visa’s allowed per year. So there is a good chance the job he is thinking about lying to get is a lie itself. Another possiblity is that HR are morons. I remember seeing ads requiring 5yrs “Post Grass” (Postgress).

Statistical evidence

In reply to There is actually a reason for this

would indicate the last possibility is the correct one.
My all time favourite was Customer Support Specialist ?15 – ?45k. They sent me the spec, ranged from see lightning and hear thunder to can create planet with weather system in less than a week.

5+ Years Windows Vista Required

In reply to There is actually a reason for this

Could go a long way toward explaining some of the ads I’ve seen recently.

There are places

In reply to Lie on the resume…

where employees having a degree is as necessary as a cert.
This guy lied to get an interview, very different to lying to get a job.
Know where he’s coming from, but I’ve been fortunate enough not to have to do that up to press.

That sort of ad is a regular, how about 3 years experience in Delphi 2005. You’ve got to guess typo, I mean no one could be that stupid could they ?

going too far

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

out and out lying goes too far..

i know things can be tough, been there and half considered it myself, but its not worth it.

Keep at it..apply for everything that might be of interest..sometimes you never know what you will stumble into..it might not be 100% what you want, but things change very fast and withing months you could be on the right track.

i never believed the “its easier to get a job when you have a job” stuff, till i was in the same position. Once you get some sort of (related) job, you are all of a sudden gaining experience, and are deemed worthy of employment by others.

Keep at it!

as everyone has stated

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

don’t do it.

it is grounds for imediate dismissal.
and when they find out, you will lose the job.

definitely not

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

No matter how desperate you get, don’t cross that line. As everyone has already said, it’s not worth it. Not only would it affect the current job, it could affect future job hunts as well. (you never know whom is friends with whom [or is it “who”? aack!])

You can’t be serious

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

I’m amazed when people lie so blatantly about something so easy to disprove. Lying on a resume is pretty bald-faced and reckless. Goofy details? If you’ll lie about education and job history on a resume, what won’t you lie about? That’s about as reckless as not telling your new fiance that you’re divorced. When you’re exposed–not if you’re exposed, but when–you will get fired. You have to list education on the job application. Are you going to lie there as well? Read the fine print on the application about what it says regarding providing false information. If you’re truthful on the application and lie on the resume, somebody will probably catch your lie even before they have a chance to fire you.

Good luck. I hope I don’t see a posting from you here in six months asking for advice on how to resuscitate your career after getting fired.

steroids

In reply to You can’t be serious

C’mon – we line in a world of steroids and rap where anything goes. Crooked politicians, million dollar white-trash stars, etc. Why shouldn’t we tech pros bend the truth. DOG EAT DOG

Not what I look for

In reply to steroids

I look for honesty and integrity when I am interviewing. And yes you can’t ask directly, you have to try and uncover. I don’t want dog eat dog. I run a team. And I don’t care how brilliant you are, if you don’t contribute to other members in the team, I don’t want you here. If you only look out for yourself, you will find yourself alone.

Its a small world – I’ve already told the story how when going for an interview, I didn’t get a great job because someone knew someone who thought I had a hand in their firing. Your reputation is priceless.

I will tell you another story. I was going through resumes for a posting I had here about a year ago, when I saw a familiar name. Reading the resume confirmed that we had both worked at the same large multinational. He ended up in a department I had left, but I still had friends there, even 6 years later. But he lied on his resume. He claimed supervisory experience in that department – I was doubtful, but I had left for another company. So I called my friend who had been and still is the department manager. Turns out not only had he not been a supervisor, he hadn’t been a good employee either – had been fired.

I didn’t need supervisory experience for the job I had posted – if he had been truthful, I might have interviewed him. I did in fact email him to confront him and he denied lying at all – but I know who I believe. He won’t be getting any references from that employer, a place he worked for 6 years, but I guess he didn’t think he needed them anyway.

The lesson is – its a small world and these things have a way of coming back on you. A professional athelete or Rap star make make a fortune in a few short years. Most IT professionals try and have careers that span decades. I am proud to say that I could call any employer or boss that I have worked with over the past 15 years and get a good reference.

James

Now I know you must be yanking our chain…

In reply to steroids

“You can’t be serious” was my first thought as well — now this post enforces that thought. Your statements are absurd — I have to assume your comments are meant as shock value to spawn converstation. If your comments are sincere, then I can assume your attitude may be the reason you can’t find a new job.

My advice is to get the credentials you need. Sure, I don’t know your individual situation, and it may not be easy, but there’s a lot of us out here working full time, raising families, and putting in the extra effort to get the credentials that will get us ahead. If you don’t want to do that then you have two options: 1) be satisfied with the work you qualify for or 2) if you have the skills, start your own business.

The world that you say we live in is not the world I live in — hard work and doing the right thing (in terms of ethical choices) pays off. Sure some either get “lucky” or can buck the system, but I can’t control that — all I can control is the choices I make — and I sleep well at night.

Best of luck in your job search!

You’ll just get fired when they find out

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

…..need I say more?

It took me a whole paragraph

In reply to You’ll just get fired when they find out

to say what you said in eight words. 😐

Only thing that might be OK

In reply to You’ll just get fired when they find out

is to leave off a short stint at a job that didn’t work out. I went to work for this small family owned sw dev place, didn’t feel like a fit, and my ex boss called a month after starting with a consulting gig that paid more and was what I had done for years, so I left.

I’d simply never mention that I worked at the other company. The prospective employer has now way to fill in the gap. (unless they are the state employement board). I’d change end dates instead of showing month and day to simply year and month.

Plus I’d typically only list last 3 jobs unless going for a security clearance, if they filled up last 5 years or so.

Balancing act

In reply to Only thing that might be OK

Employers look for resume gaps. A few months gap is not a big deal, but if you worked for that company for over a year, it might be easier to say that it didn’t fit and you left that to be asked what you did between x and y dates.

As I said in another thread, I usually go back farther than 5 years. I like to see career progression, where you started and where you are now.

James

can they check … heck yeah

In reply to Balancing act

Here is something I just recalled that happened to my mom. Prior to WW II she went to the University of Bucharest in Roumania. Place got bombed, burned down etc. No records of course. She is a special ed school teacher and needed to prove her degree for a job 30 years later. Wrote down on a sheet all the classes she could recall she took and went to a place at UCLA. The counselor actually TOOK DOWN a catalog from that time period from a shelf and verified that those sounded like classes she took. When people want to check your education they can do amazing things!

The start of a slippery slope

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

As everyone has said before, if (and when) you are found out, you’ll probably get fired.

On your next application, you usually have to state why you left your last job. You very well can’t put on “For lying on my resume”, now can you? So you have now started a new lie.

Also, think about this. Lying on your resume creates a new personna for you. You’ll have to remember your lies, and cover them when questioned. What if you run across someone that went to the same school as you claim to have ? Can you discuss with them the finer points of the University? The Professors? The Student Union?

Remember the old adage- that it’s much easier to remember the truth than a well crafted lie?

let me get this straight…

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

You’re posting on here trying to get some support for your idea to lie on a resume?? Do you think anyone would actually come on here and say, yeah man go ahead and do it. It got me a job and I’m making 6 figures now. No. Because they’d have gotten found out. Plus, what kind of way is it to start a new job on a lie. That is awfully slimy. What about when you get found out? Have fun finding your next job. So, why did you leave your last job? Well, actually, I’m a low life who lies on their resume and my scam was working, but then I got found out… want to hire me now?

any different

In reply to let me get this straight…

Would it be any different from these Enron dirtbags, politicians, steriod athletes, etc. Not saying it’s right – but dammit – I’m tired of being a pussy and getting passed up. You ever drive over 55? you’re breaking the law – is it any different?

Yes… and no

In reply to any different

Those Enron dirtbags finally got caught. Those steriod athletes will pay the price big time (they get “caught” by the physical damage done).

My key to breaking any law or rule: Is it verifiable? Will I be caught? If the answer is an unqualified yes, or fairly strong probably, I don’t do it. If I’m in the middle of a pack of cars all going 80, I’m going 80. If I’ve got a cop somewhere ahead of me, so that going 80 would cause me to pass, I’m going whatever everybody else it.

Resume exagerations for me are in the area of unverifiable: years of experience when the company no longer exists; particular job experience when the company I work for only verifies that I work there and my salary; things of that nature. And when in doubt, don’t.

What you really need to do …

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

… is to find yourself a gig with an organization that doesn’t use the latest and greatest (charity maybe?) and that pays enough to put you through night school to finish that degree. But get the degree in something other than IT or computer science.

amen!

In reply to What you really need to do …

Amen brother! you make the most sense of any. My brother hated school and got into construction after high school. He’s worth a lot more than most of us pinheads!

Oh, Brother!!!

In reply to amen!

My brother was a baseball player, both high school and legion summer ball.

He did listen to his older brother, as well as his father and retired after 20 in the Wisconsin National Guard (my advice) and now works for on the production line at a crane manufacturer (dad’s wisdom).

Me? I’ll likely be carried feet-first outta some data center or the other.

Never Lie – HR will get you!

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Our HR department hires a background check service that checks everything for everyone regardless of the position. I’ve seen a couple new people leaving with heads hung low.

Nope – Never

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Never have, never will

Some unsolicited advice

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

You should consider reevaluating your value system. I’ve learned that a person is who he is, regardless of the role he’s filling. A liar is a liar, whether that be at home or at work. A cheater will try to pull one over on a boss, a wife, or a golf playing partner. You are who you are, and you just revealed yourself to the cyber-world. And my guess is that you somehow reveal yourself to others around you as well.

But there’s hope. You just have to decide what kind of person you want to be, and reinvent yourself to be that person.

Are you [b][i]STILL [/b][/i]looking for a job? You’ve been looking for a long time, haven’t you? Or are you looking again? That alone should provide a clue to you that you might need an attitude make-over. And perhaps you should stop drinking. You might be better off without it that you are with it. When all things around you seem to be going wrong, the best place to look for the answer is inside of you.

You are wrong!

In reply to Some unsolicited advice

It’s everyone else’s fault — that is the world we really live in, I see it every day, even in my own extended family. If more people took ownership for their own situation then we’d all be a lot better off.

How silly of me

In reply to You are wrong!

Of course it’s someone else’s fault. I don’t know what came over me. But don’t blame me — this must be someone else’s fault as well!

help, assistance, fault

In reply to How silly of me

“If I see further than other men, it is because I stand upon the shoulders of giants.”

–Sir Isaac Newton

(.. and its corrolary: No matter where you are, you had a lot of help getting there.)

I agree

In reply to You are wrong!

To me, this thread is going down a path that has lowered our level of self worth. Like everyone said, why lie about credentials? If you do it, it’s your choice, no one here can bail you out when it backfires. We can give you pointers to AVOID that mess. With hard work, you can get the good job. And yes, some people fall into money… if you’re stuck on that, buy lotto tickets with the money you have.

If I bought a used car, and they said it was CERTIFIED used, I would be off the wall if they came around and said, “uh, well, it’s not CERTIFIED CERTIFIED, but you know, it’s all the same.”

Stick to the truth.

M_A_R_K

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Hey Mark hate to say that I disagree with you on the spanish/Texas thing. I am from Iowa and have lived here in Fort Worth for almost ten years and can’t count the amount of I.T. jobs that said “must speak both spanish and english”.
Even in those cases when I applied, just as soon as I admitted that I did not speak spanish I was turned away.
Just last week the Star Telegram had an ad for the large clothing company Dickies, same thing “must speak and write spanish fluently”

Ben – “Must speak Spanish”

In reply to M_A_R_K

Ben, were you applying for a job as a construction foreman? Those ads that you saw are probably for jobs where you work closely with companies in Mexico or have employees working in Mexico. You mentioned Dickies. That is a textile company. Almost all textile plants are in low-wage nations. I’d be willing to bet your next paycheck that Dickies has a plant in Mexico and the job ad that you saw is for a direct interface with, or managerialship over, Mexican citizens. In all my career, it would have been more beneficial for me to know one of the Chinese or Indian dialects as opposed to Spanish. As a matter of fact, I have never had any reason at all to know a single word of Spanish at any job. And I’ve had quite a few IT jobs.

I.T.

In reply to Ben – “Must speak Spanish”

No sir, all of my job applications here in the Fort Worth, Mid-cities area have been for I.T. jobs. I am a network admin and the Dickies job was for tier II network admin.
Again I am not saying anything crass or bad about speaking spanish at all simply that it’s sad that people can lose out on a job interview on that basis alone.
Maybe it’s just not as prevelant in the Dallas area.

I’m surprised it’s necessary anywhere

In reply to I.T.

I’ve lived in Texas my entire life. Never really HAD to speak Spanish to get anything in regular life or a job done. And I grew up in South Central Texas where the population is 50% Mexican-American. Being fluent in Espanol would have been slightly helpful when I was in high school working for local farmers who had a migrant worker or two. And it would have been helpful once when I was in grade school and I got ganged up on by a bunch of Mexican kids. They spoke English. My speaking Spanish to them may have helped me get out of a jam. Well, on second thought, I was a smart aleck. Probably would have made things worse.

Reply To: False information on resume – ever do it?

In reply to I’m surprised it’s necessary anywhere

Well I’m just glad to hear that maybe it’s not as bad as I had thought since you’ve lived here forever and I’ve just been here ten years because of north it’s just something you’d never even talk about whereas here it seems even in the CVS stores the signs are half english and half spanish. My only luck is that my wife is spanish and speaks and writes it perfectly.

Here’s the problem

In reply to Reply To: False information on resume – ever do it?

We native Texans aren’t very fond of northerners. We can sense the presence of a northerner when he comes with 50 feet of us. What you’re seeing is outright prejudice against you. haha I am joking. You’ve probably just had some extraordinary circumstances where you’ve come across the “must be bilingual” requirement. I have seen some job ads that require Spanish, but not many and I really never have been hindered by that. Good luck. Buena suerte. I hope Texas is treating you well.

Haha

In reply to Here’s the problem

Yeah I’ve taken a lot of ribbing for being from up north! But I love it here, been almost ten years and I have NO plans to ever leave.
I’m told by many folks in Fort Worth once I make it an official ten years here I am a real Texan.
I just hope that I never have to go to Dallas -)
Just kidding man.

How about these “winters”?

In reply to Here’s the problem

Are you enjoying your spring this winter? Do you miss your snowbound Iowa tundra? You’ve been here 10 years and so should realize that this winter is NOT the norm. Not by any means. Most winters we have a lot of warm days but not every day like this winter. Enjoy it while it lasts. The weather around here changes faster than you can say “I’m a rootin’ tootin’ Texas cowboy!”

Reply To: False information on resume – ever do it?

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Streatching the truth is one thing, but claiming you have a qualification that you clearly do not is and out-and-out lie.

Stretching the truth is one thing, but claiming you have a qualification that you clearly do not is and out-and-out lie.

Remember, degrees are conferred by government legislation. Falsifying these types of records could land you with a prosecution.

Edit feature doesn’t work

In reply to Reply To: False information on resume – ever do it?

Okay, since this site displays an error when I try to edit my reply, here’s what I wanted to say:

Stretching the truth is one thing, but claiming you have a qualification that you clearly do not, is and out-and-out lie.

Remember, the power a University has to confer a degree, ultimately comes from government legislation. Falsifying these types of records could land you with a very serious prosecution.

doubt it

In reply to Edit feature doesn’t work

I can’t think of how it is an actual crime to lie on your resume. Obviously it’s a terrible idea but I can’t imagine what statute it would violate.

govts don’t confer degrees, educational institutions do. these are sometimes accredited by a private or gov’t bureau.

(unless) you are applying and there is a clause that you state all the above is true under penalty of perjury, probably they can only do this for govt jobs or secret clearance.

easy to explain persecution

In reply to doubt it

all jobs are based on skill sets and pay grades. If you have skilla you get paid at grade a rate. With b you get b and so forth. The job you apply for can get paid a through f. If you have the degree you get e or f. Ok you now are getting this level of payment but your degree-less so you should have gotten pay a or b. that is fraud. I doubt many companies would take the time and cost to get legal issues involved (much easier to just terminate for cause) but they could and if there is a lot of money involved they might if just to make a point.

Reply To: False information on resume – ever do it?

In reply to doubt it

No one stated that governments confer degrees, but typically they grant via legislation the POWER to confer to degrees. This is the situation for most of the developed world, but perhaps not the US.

Because this power is grated by the government, it is a criminal offence to falsify these records.

Stretching the truth = Lie

In reply to Edit feature doesn’t work

Stretching the truth is no different than a lie. In both instances, you’re making a deliberate attempt to communicate something that isn’t true. Sorry, I can’t agree that stretching the truth is somehow better than an outright lie.

I guess that depends on what stretching the truth is…

In reply to Stretching the truth = Lie

Is there a definition? If one added an extra month to his/her experience time for a particular job is that “stretching the truth”? I always thought of that as lying. I am asking because I don’t know….what exactly is stretching the truth? How do you uh…stretch something something intangible as Truth?

Better not

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

If you say you have a degree they will expect to see it sooner, rather than later. Needless to say that could and will lead to trouble. If you know your stuff and got what it takes to stand out among the crowd, I would suggest you explore other alternatives. One would be to get express, inexpensive certifications from sites such as Brainbench (http://www.brainbench.com). They might not be CompTIA, Cisco, or Microsoft certifications, but they’re close enough to the real thing and they can be considered by employers. Check it out and you’ll see what I mean. Believe me, this is a lot better than “stretching the truth.”

yea but,,,,,,

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

In all my jobs, NOONE has ever asked about credentials. What got me thinking, was we had someone who got fired cause they were here illegal.

It’s a friggin dog eat dog world now. They want to hire the person with the most titles for the least $$$ – let’s get real. Besides – we got people in China who get our jobs for a bowl-of-rice a day. Reminds me – why do my kids buy HOLLISTER junk for so much $$$ – it’s made in the same friggin place as the Walmart crap – think about it.

Yea but? No Buts!

In reply to yea but,,,,,,

The reason you’re still looking for a job is your ATTITUDE! Both to life in general and the fact that you don’t like yourself! Blaming the rest of the world for your own shortcomings is not going to solve anything for you, and neither is telling lies! Get a Life!!!

Don’t kid yourself

In reply to yea but,,,,,,

Don’t kid yourself and think that nobody is checking your credentials. Just because they haven’t asked doesn’t mean they aren’t checking. It’s far better to assume that they are looking and be truthful, then to lie and hope that they never check. As far as the person who got fired, how long were they here before they were found out? They did get found out, right?

Don’t kid yourself that things are so much tougher now than they ever have been. It’s no more of a dog eat dog world today than it was 14 years ago when I graduated college with a degree and no experience in IT.

I don’t know what the rest of the paragraph has to do with lying on a resume.

Be sure that your lie will find you out.

I agree with “No Buts”

In reply to yea but,,,,,,

You can’t let frustration make you lower your levels. Just because it seems like “they” are not working with you, doesn’t mean you should use less than moral means to achieve the status that “they” seem to be setting. You just haven’t found the job for you yet. There is one out there, keep looking. Remember, don’t set your sights so high that you can’t even reach them, but start a little lower than you’d like and your real skills will move you up.

A company I worked for

In reply to yea but,,,,,,

instituted a policy a few years back to review everyone’s applications and resumes whenever they get a promotion or a transfer.

Several people got promoted and lost their jobs upon resume review. Others kept themselves in a position where they would not get promoted because they didn’t want to risk losing pension benefits they had accrued over the years.

Interesting policy – Peter principle at work

In reply to A company I worked for

Hmmm,
They couldn’t tell whether an employee was valuable or not from their experience within the company?
Makes me wonder who really should have been fired.

Great Reply Silvio but…

In reply to yea but,,,,,,

It doesn’t justify you lying on your resume.
It may gall you that the company you’re applying to outsources some of their work and doesn’t give a hoot about the service they get there, but you’re not applying for a job in one of those countries.
You want to start a thread on outsourcing, I’d love to join in but don’t use it for justifying why it’s okay for you to do something wrong.

I Say Do It

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Hey,

Go ahead lie. Just make sure your resume is always updated, cuz once they find out you will need it again.

On a lighter side you can always list lying as a hobby on your resume.

;-)))))

Don’t make the mistake of thinking a screener can’t tell

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

I’ve worked with and for a number of people over the years. I can usually spot a college grad (and one who isn’t) a mile away. So can a good screener. Interviewees with 2-year and 4-year degrees tend to present themselves differently and have a better command of written and oral communication skills.

There are a plethora of reasons for not stretching the truth:
1) You could lose a shot at the new job. They may ask for a transcript or call to verify themselves.
2) If it is found out, your credibility is definitely damaged. IT folks tend to network well and the word would get out. Your future in the area of IT would probably be ruined.

If the degree and certifications are that important to a screener, then step up to the plate and go get them.

But never, never try to bluff your way in. It will eventually bite you. The only question is when and how badly.

What you are saying is that…

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

…you have no regard for the people who put the blood, sweat, tears, and money into getting a real degree, are too lazy to get one yourself, and would rather lie about it because you think the degree does not really matter. Consequently you make it more difficult for those of use who really do have a degree to get a job, because your actions promote distrust in the job market. Find a job you are really qualified for, or bite the bullet and get the degree and certifications.

Resumes Explained:

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Resumes explained:

In my time I’ve seen lots of styles in Resumes. I’ve also been to several conferences where the preparation was explained at length. But I have discovered on my own that ‘Resumes’ can be as different as you and me, in content, style, format, and presentation.

But I will say this. Resumes must always be prepared in such a manner, that reading it is pleasurable, informative, coherent, and well presented. All information obtained therein must be verifiable, substantive, and correct.

Padding must be avoided as much as possible, except for an addendum explaining a certain skill, which you feel is worthwhile highlighting, for the position you are applying for. Maintain a sensible and coherent flow. Make the language simple and avoid verbosity.

And in your conclusion, it is always wise to state any specific skill, craft, or experience, that would make you an asset to the organization.

Thank you,
Derryck.

I admit, I have – but

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

only to get in the door. The very first thing I did in the interview is tell them I had not yet completed my degree. I then did a quick 3 minute skills list, explained what I knew about their operation from my research, identified a possible solution to their latest problem (told to me by one of their tech people who I called) and asked if they still wanted to talk to me. I got hired so I never had to do it again.

Yes, it is lying and you need to correct it up front. If the HR group sets the requirements without knowing what skills people without degrees can have, then I see it as a way to get my foot in the door.

I won’t have to do it now but I ashamedly did once upon a time (and I have to admit it still bothers me cause it is wrong).

Would you accept your employer lying to you?

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

How would you feel if you took the job, with a nice benifit package they SAID they had. Then you find out they really weren’t a Fortune 500 company, didn’t really have a 401K, (but did have a coffee can for change), didn’t have as many customers as they said, and only paid 75% of the Medical plan?

That’s basically what you are doing.

Consider another field other than IT as cheating will get you nowhere!

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

The IT job market is very tight to begin with. Lying or stretching the truth is a very quick way to be terminated if you are hired, but more than likely your resume will be deposited in the nearest trash bin when you are discovered as a fraud. HR & screeners will verify college degrees, and most vendors have websites where a prospective employer can validate the certs that you have listed.

One thing to consider is that IT is a mature field. Given my own experience in job hunting, I doubt *VERY* seriously if you will find employment in IT without at least at BS in MIS/CS, five yrs of experience in IT, an MCSE 2k with security and messaging, CCDP, CCVP, RHCE, and preferably a CCIE. Even with those qualifications, if you live in certain areas of the U.S., it could take 6 months to a year to find a position. Consider another field other than IT as you are wasting your time based upon your lack of qualifications!

First of all….

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

it will show up in your background check (which includes employment, EDUCATION, and criminal), trust me, I know *GASP*…so you can cross that out.

Instead of lying, state a future date when your degree will be completed. For example…

University of
Bachelor of Science in Information Technology
Expected Graduation: April, 2007

How does that work? That is assuming you will finish of course…

Second, I admit I cheated on a resume (exact same thing you are proposing) and it showed up on the background check and needless to say I was promptly fired…but thats not what I learned (yes yes, cheating is bad) I learned I actually had some sort of a conscience…cause I felt sooo guilty during those 2 or 3 weeks of employment…in fact I was planning on quitting…go figure..who knew…this conscience thing actually bothered me!!

I haven’t cheated since and never will, its just not a cool thing to do. There are better alternatives…good luck!

I suggest you go ahead and do it…

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

What do you have to lose? I am serious…go ahead and do it…the worse they will do is fire you. Case closed, you move on to the next job.

In the whole process you might actually learn something about yourself…who knows!

You’re kidding right?

In reply to I suggest you go ahead and do it…

I can only assume you are being sarcastic. Please tell us that you are not actually encouraging this guy to lie just to get a job. What does that tell us about your own morals?

Burned hand teaches the best

In reply to You’re kidding right?

What more do you want me to say? I am not being sarcastic at all. He should go ahead and do it and hopefully he learns something from the experience.

I’m not sure what else there is to say.

In reply to Burned hand teaches the best

I see your point and agree that lessons are learned from mistakes, but why head down a road that you already know is going to lead you nowhere? Even if he got past the screeners and was smart enough to fool the interviewer, he is going to be found out sooner or later.

From what I have read in this thread, it sounds like there are more issues with this guy than his lack of degrees or certs. As one person here said, sounds like panic has set in and he is getting desperate. Desperate times do not always call for desperate measures. Just a thought…

M_A_R_K Texas winters

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Yeah Mark about the Texas winters. After living here for nearly ten years I can to attest that this has been THE mildest winter yet for me.
And heck no I don’t miss Iowa winters!!! Haha they are horrible and bone chilling. But even Iowa has had an above average warm winter, warmest since 1913 supposdly.

getting tricky

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

hey i agree to you dude stuffs we learnt on our own and having the confidence we can outsmart most techies…. well its the same thing with me so what i did was on my resume i out an additional saying AREA OF EXPERTISE and mentioning few things which i have a good hold on so thats how it goes… but on the other side there is a situation we have to face i mean think we passed the screening and got into it now by chance if we are cracked up the thruth will surely screw our happiness …… huh

ever wondered……..

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

if there’s a reason why you don’t get past the screeners?

Personally I’m in the final stages of studying for my degree now. If you can already do the tasks required to get you the “goofy details” (wtf btw) then STUDY. Should be easy IF you can already do it.

If you can’t manage to achieve them then what are you complaining for?

Put your money where your mouth is and suck it up

To show or not to show or what to show

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

While working for an engg. company, I also studied for my Bachelor of Mech. Engg. in an evening college. While I passed in first class in the final year, I could not complete some of failed subjects of the 2nd & 3rd year due to personal reasons. Now I’m confused how to project this in my resume. Otherwise I’m a Diploma Certificate holder in Mech. Engg. and have 20 yrs. of Industry & IT experience. So far I’ve been honest enough to not to show my degree in my resume but I’m not getting good offers.

Finish it?

In reply to To show or not to show or what to show

Is it possible to go back to evening class to finish what you need to get the qualification?

Alternatively, you could put down that you studied for your Bachelor Degree on your resume. That way you may get through the pre-interview selection process, and have an opportunity to explain the reasons face-to-face.

Thanks !

In reply to Finish it?

Thanks for your advice. I’ll try & do that.

There are lies, damn lies and then there are CV’s

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Having carried out several hundred job interviews the one piece of advice I would give anyone is don’t lie or over embelish the truth on a CV.

The easy way we find out in an interview is start with a question like “Can you give me an example where you did * ?” and drill down from there. No matter how good a liar you are you will not do it consistantly enough not to get found out.

In the UK staff usually go through agencies to find work and if you have once been caught out lying at a client interview are they going to risk sending you to their blue chip clients?

All in all honesty is the best policy if you have the skills you need to look at how you sell yourself and maybe getting some certs to demonstrate those skills you think you have.

Give them what they want.

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Don’t lie. As most people here have said, it will come back and bite you.

If you can hold your own against most of the techies on the new stuff, then why don’t you prove it? Whilst you’re looking for a new job, get your certification and a few more exams under your belt. I don’t know if you’re working at the moment, but if you’re not, I’m sure one of the interview questions will be something along the lines of “What have you been doing whilst you’ve been looking for jobs?”. And if you can turn around and say that you’ve been passing exams whilst looking for a job, it’ll be a huge bonus.

That way you won’t have to lie, your future employer will admire your efforts, and you’ll feel a hell of a lot better about yourself.

Good luck for the future!

So what do you think will happen when….

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

So when asked for your transcripts for the degree you don’t have or the certification ID (Microsoft, Cisco, CISSP, SAN, Comptia) all have verification processes to ensure that those that say they are certified are. If you lie and it is checked (I check my applicates because I require a number of certified folks to maintian my MVP and Cisco patner status) – one I am not going to hire you, two I am going to communicate it to my peers at other organizations. Demonstration of knowledge is great, the ability to acquire the certification or level of education shows your ability to document that education. Falsing that information to get ahead – creates serious trust issues – recommend you just sit for the certifications

Omit facts, OK, but don’t lie.

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Of all the jobs I’ve ever applied for, only once have I been asked for proof of my qualifications (Degree certificate etc.) What was absurd was that this was the 2nd interview for a job I had expressly said I didn’t want at the 1st interview! (They sent for me for the 2nd interview without telling me what the job was! I assumed it would be one in which I had expressed interest at the 1st interview) My certificates were copied and I was photographed by the interviewing company, British Telecom.
I once applied for a job after 13 months of unemployment in 1991-2. I did not state that I had been unemployed but stated what I had been doing during the 13 months (interfacing a knitting machine to a computer – just to keep my brain active). I got the job. I have no qualms about omitting negative facts such as unemployment or (even worse?) working at Macdonalds, but you do have to fill the time gap with something positive. You could stretch the time spent doing something positive like installing/repairing a friend’s PC.

Don’t do it

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Diligent employers will do background checks on employees being considered for hiring or recently hired. A lie about a certification is very easy to find. Employers are forced to take action as they don’t want to take a chance at being responsible for non-action if the employee acts improperly at some point later.

You dont have to lie

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

If you are as good as you say you are, just create an application that demos your skills. Then send it with your resume.

This can help break down the barriers. Sure, it might not work 75% of the time, but all you need is one job to get your foot in the door.

Falsifying Resume

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Sorry, that doesn’t wash. Saying you have a degree when you don’t is a LIE. Saying you’re certified if you aren’t is a LIE. Period.

-CB

Go ahead…lie

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

but truth is, it will come back up to you and bite you in the ass when you least expect it.

False and Truth

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

It is Good to indicate what a person knows and whats he is familiar , but you said you did a training on a new stuff and you have studied it by your own , what if they asked you for the training certificate many does… So why making yourself in a bad stitution.

Cover letter.

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Explaining situations like this is what a cover letter is for… Point out to them that you learned your skills in the “school of hard knocks” instead of ‘wasting’ time on things like certification courses (most software certs. are a bunch of pap anyhow (and a good company should know this), hardware and platform certs. may be a different story).

DON’T lie on your resume.

It’s not what you write, but how you write it.

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

First of all….don’t lie. You’ll wish you hadn’t down the road.

Second, you need to present your resume to reflect your strong suits. Ok, so you don’t have a degree, but you’re certified. This tells them you’ve got some smarts. Spin it that you’ve taken all the initiative to do the work and get certified. I.e. you’re a motivated go getter that will take the initiative. I’d rather have that in my office than someone who just has a piece of paper.

What have you done with your training so far? State your accomplishments. Volunteer for an organization and help them into the tech. age. Are you a programmer, then build them an app that helps them reduce costs or increase revenues. Quantify those figures…managers love numbers! If you’re a system admin, help a struggling org. with improving their network.

What I’m trying to say is, with what you?ve got make sure you communicate your accomplishments. Show them you can make lemonade out of lemons.

Good luck!

I am too honest

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

I totally agree with being truthful because like the old saying the truth always comes out eventually. I have only done it once in the past and it did not help me get an interview but when I did have one I was asked about it and it was not good.

However, just recently had a excellent interview which I was up front and honest but I sometimes think it is hurting me and I really thought I had the job because what they were looking for was what my skill sets are and to have the opportunity to rollover to be a system admin(I do have this ability) really rocked! I guess they didn’t like the 60k negotiable price or whatever it may have been.

I have a vast amount of self taught and schooled knowledge in the most common areas of IT. Which I expell during an interview along with some achievements I have accomplished which I feel is key to a prospective employer.

never ever

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

I lied about a degree (which at that time I did not have) and sure enought they researched it and called me in. I went to UCLA for 4 years but didn’t have the degree but was extremely close (2 classes short) but even that little bit was enough. Got fired on the spot. Falsifying something always can come back – especially in a government or high tech job. Just about count on a background search. heck anyone can pay $35 and do it. Why wouldn’t a company. Thier risk and exposure is HUGE on a new hire. Not only you education but criminal and all that too.

False information on resume – ever do it?

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Hello,

Neither do I have a degree and I also possess enough experience and self-training to “hold my own” and usually can exceed most ‘techies’ in this Windows world.
What I say in _my_resume and when asked at interview time is:
“I have this _level_ of experience/training” i.e., ‘I have the training level of a BSEE.’ Then I show my various certs and a portfolio of past projects or designs that are not company confidential. This gets me past the screeners to the actual hiring manager which will usually get me the contract.
Just a thought. It’s not lying and it does get the point across.

I will personally kick your…

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

..@$$ if you attempt something so wretched. I?ll be sure to inform the loan consolidators that college was merely ?goofy business?. I?m sure they?ll leave me alone for the next 10 years of my payment schedule. I went to college to have an advantage over people like you. Want some advice? If you?re so confident in your skills, go freelance. I?m pretty sure your boss will posses some sort of degree, and appreciate this gesture as much as I do.

Don’t do it — period.

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Even if the ethics of it don’t stop you, I’ve seen one person who did that and got caught get walked out by security after working at a firm for several months — the minute they find out, you’re out and it’s a black mark on your record. You think you’re having trouble finding a job now? Try having to explain that 2 months at _________. And if you’ve really learned the new stuff on your own — go take the certification exam, you should be able to pass it and actually get those certifications, rather than lying about them.

What’s Wrong With Your Resume?

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Companies do not hire based on resumes. They use resumes to screen out apllicants that merit further evaluation, usually at an interview. If you are getting called in for interviews but not hired, your problem is not your resume, it is your interview skills.
If you are not getting interviews maybe the problem is not the content of your resume, but its presentation. As a reader of resumes, I found almost all of the “techie” resumes that cross my desk to be horribly written. They are filled with typos. They often have hand written updates. They don’t highlight the applicants strengths. I have to struggle to find the information I am looking for. So when I do get a well written resume, it counts for a lot even if the applicant’s history is less than optimum. And, as is mentioned in a previous post, a cover letter is important.
As a final caution, I relate this story. I interviewed an apllicant whose resume suggested he had a Master’s degree. Since the degree came from my alma mater, that was the first thing I asked about. If he had not attended the University he claimed, I would have known and he would not have been hired. As it turned out, he had enrolled in the degree program but had not completed it. A more careful reading of his resume revealed that he never claimed he had earned the degree so he was not disqualified. Eventually we did hire this fellow, but for a different position than that for which he had applied.
Bottom line, the best resume is well written and accurate. It will allow hirers to fit you into the position they need you to fill.

Tell a Lie, Go to Jail

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

In my state, State Employeese have been sucessfully prosecuted for misrepresenting their qualifications during their hiring, for the crime of uptaining state funds under false pretenses.

What if..

In reply to Tell a Lie, Go to Jail

no excuse but if the person lied, but they were really good at the job better than qualified ones?

I would reject a candidate

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

who lied on his resume. Even if he were the best person for the job, that would disqualify him from current or future consideration.

Don’t even think about it

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Lying is lying.

Degree’s and certifications are easy to check. I have my HR do that as a matter of course during the candidate’s background check. If they come up with a candidate who lied in this area the candidate is immediately dropped from consideration, no further discussion.

If you need a degree or certs for the job you want get off your couch and invest the effort in the study. You say you hold your own…prove it!

DONT DO IT – KEEP IT STRAIGHT

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

It is a huge problem to lie on resumes or even in an interview about college education, previous positions, etc. You will get caught and you will be fired. You can also be held for damages in some cases although thats rare. You’ll certainly break bridges.
IT IS OK to position your qualifications cleverly BUT straightfoward style and openess, coupled with your self esteem and good track record WILL WORK WONDERS – DON’T DISCOUNT THAT. BUT don’t lie.. Bill Clinton got away with it as well as slippery language, etc. – that doesn’t work in people and/or business relationships. Keep it straight.

Bite you on the Butt

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Surely the high profile cases of Michael “Doin a Heckava Job Brownie” Brown at FEMA and countless sports coaches over the years has taught you that eventually, the truth does catch up to you. Your cover can be blown by something as innocent as a comment by someone who knew you in a former life to a rival who wants to get the goods on you. Do you really want to live your life looking over your shoulder?

It may be a lot of work, especially now that you are a fully grown adult with real life work experience and responsibilities, but you may want to bite the bullet and go to school to get the degree that’s holding you back.

I appologize if I repeated what others have said, but 144 comments is a lot to sift through. ; ]

Good luck.

Still….

In reply to Bite you on the Butt

Again, resume forgery does catch up to you. But I doubt Michael Brown from FEMA will every be working at my level. Why? because he lied successfully until he got to the top.

Ever hear the phrase “Fake it till you make it”? Well, it seems to apply here. WHATEVER he does, WHEREVER he goes, “Head of FEMA” will always get better pay than my “Managed a shop of up to 30” individuals.

All on a resume falsified for ? how long?

by the way

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

I can also see from your follow up messages throughout this thread that the reason you think you can do this lying is because EVERYONE does it and that fault is always elsewhere. What does what ENRON or KENYA or CLINTON or anyplace else have to do with what is happening between you and your employer. You keep referring to dog-eat-dog. I guess that means the ends justifies the means. If your conscious says to you that it is ok I sure wouldn’t want you as a fellow employee. You sir are morally bankrupt if that is your way of getting ahead.

Don’t Lie on your Resume

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Take it from someone who has manage employees for over 20 years. Don’t lie on your resume because it will eventually catch up with you and it won’t be pretty. I once hired someone who had lied on a resume and the person even had a great reference. When I hired this person, the person could not deliver the goods and it was very embarassing for me because this person was brought into at a higher level than the existing staff. I had to make the decision to let the person go because my credibility was on the line and it was not working out. I advise you to keep plugging along and the interviews will come if you are persistent in going for jobs you are truly qualified for…If you are terrific and sounds like you are, look for a job that will get you in the door and do it to the best of your ability. Put in the time and dedication to showboat your talents and you will get noticed. I moved up the ladder because I took on extra work and was able to impliment various process improvement efforts with hefty cost savings.

Good luck and stay true to yourself.

Don’t do it …. :-(

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Consider the following innocent example: If they bring you in for a ‘Java’ job, based on your resume having ‘Java Script’; they may accuse you of lying on your resume, or of not being careful enough (i.e., lacking in the ‘attention to detail’ category of skills).

So imagine how badly they will treat you if you intentionally fake a degree or training.

Instead, simply state that you have ATTENDED a college or university; or admit that you have taught yourself via accepted texts. Additionally, in your cover letter provide brief, concrete, verifiable examples of how your self taught expertise accomplished something equivalent to what a credentialed candidate accomplished.

But don’t lie… it will haunt you for a very long time. All these HR resume screeners talk to the same recruiters, they will know who you are.

Also, be VERY CAREFUL of the following: when asked what your job titles have been, provide BOTH the job title AND a brief description of the position… if your job title was Web Master, but you were never involved in Network management, for example, BUT they are looking for a Network Administrator (because they are using the term Web Master to mean Network Administrator), they will also think you are lying about that.

Best of luck!

lying is not the answer

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

If you are as sharp as you say you are why do you feel the need to lie. There are a lot of intelligent people that don’t have a degree or certifications. Lay your skill set on the line and show them that you have what it takes to get the job done. You can focus on the years of experience you have to offer. You can let them know that by hiring you the company will not have to spend extra money on training because you already have the knowledge, skills and ablilty to do the job. Lying only leads to more lying. Don’t do it; your experience can speak for itself. Good luck

Not worth it in the long run or even in the short run – depends when caught

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Man, just stick to facts. The lies or non- truths will come back to haunt you sooner than later. And then what… your reputation will be in tatters… at least around people who live around you. Or do you want to bury your head in sand and live like an ostrich / hermit?

Create a functional resume and write up your successful accomplishments. Naturally, your true brilliance will come through at interviews. Show them and get credit for who you are, and not who you are not.

You will love being yourself. Someone said that starting to lie has a snowball effect. You got to cover the first lie with another and another and another till you reach a stage that you forget what the original lie was all about.

Don’t fall into that trap. Numerous examples surround us in the news and look at the price the people who lie will pay. Is it worth it?

And then there are the headhunters

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Without reading through all of the replies while at work (although I plan to tonight at home), I don’t know whether anyone else has brought up either of these two problems.

One is the case of headhunters and other reps who falsify a resume on behalf of a candidate in order to get an interview. There are agents who routinely do this sort of thing. I’ve been in the painful position of having to ask an interviewer whether I could look at the resume from which he was working, only to then point out several items on the resume which were blantantly false. Not surprisingly, the interviewer assumed I was the one who had falsified my qualifications to the headhunter, which reputation followed me around for some time. The headhunter had insisted on ‘formatting’ the resume to make it more readable for his clients. The lesson of which is, don’t ever, ever, ever allow someone to send a resume out on your behalf without an ironclad agreement that you get to review any modifications of any sort before it is sent out.

The second problem is that many people falsify one critical part of their resume, the past salary. This is apparently so common that many recruiters assume that whatever you put on the resume is in fact your ‘dream salary’ rather than the truth, and so expect you to eagerly accept a lower amount. When this happens and you try to tell the recruiter that you are less than enthused with taking a cut in pay from your current or former pay, they again assume you are lying to drive up the price.

In both cases the lies told by others end up making the honest people look like liers.

Integrity

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

How badly do you feel when someone you trusted lied to you? How important is your credibility to you? I beleive that no lie is worthwhile no matter the gain. “Getting caught in a lie – even little one — will destroy your credibility.” If I were your new hiring employer and found you lied to me I would terminate you. If I couldn’t do that, how far do you think you would get in the organization anyway? To me, it is not what you know — it is what you are made of.

excellent

In reply to Integrity

couldn’t have said it better!

Security Checks

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Post 9/11 almost all companies do detailed background investigations on even the lowest level employee. They will find out about your lie regarding degree and they WILL fire you when they find out. I wouldn’t do it.

What would you think of yourself?

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

You probably wouldn’t get away with it for long as it would come out, maybe as early as during a good in-depth interview. It may come out and get you fired in the future when you were otherwise successful and happy in the position, or even far in the future in a completely different job. I’m so disappointed that so many people said to go ahead and do it. Even if you did get away with it, what would you think of yourself? Others can take almost everything away from you. The only thing they can’t take away is your own honor, integrity, and self respect – those you have to give away yourself and they are more important than you could possibly imagine. You must be pretty young and immature to even ask such a question, or I’m getting too old and times have really changed in IT.

If you have to lie, the job isn’t for you…

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Look, if the people doing the hiring feel that certain certifications and degrees are necessary to do the job and you do not posses these qualifications, the you are not qualified – end of story. For some managers, papers and degrees hold a lot of weight, and those managers will be incredibly disappointed when they discover the truth. Managers that are inflexible with their requirements are short-sighted anyhow. Perhaps these are not the people you should be working for!

If you are self taught, have a passion for technology and can “hold your own,” as you say, someone will pick up on that and offer you the job. You need to sell the skills you HAVE not the ones you don’t.

As a manager of IT myself, I can tell you that there are MANY factors that contribute to a person’s success. If someone doesn’t meet all of the requirements but has a desire to improve, I give them serious consideration. Sometimes, less qualified candidates are awarded the job because they posses a drive that the qualified candidates seemed to have lost along the way. I am not the only manager out there that thinks this way. It just takes time and a lot of patience, and tons of persistence on your part.

So please, put your best foot forward and do not feel the need to falsify information. If you remember anything, please remember this: If you want to have a successful career in IT, honesty is ONE quality you can’t afford to be without.

DONT get caught;, but lie about college, you WILL get caught..

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

SOUTH BEND, Ind. (AP) — George O’Leary resigned as Notre Dame football coach five days after being hired, admitting he lied about his academic and athletic background.

O’Leary claimed to have a master’s degree in education and to have played college football for three years, but checks into his background showed it wasn’t true.

“Due to a selfish and thoughtless act many years ago, I have personally embarrassed Notre Dame, its alumni and fans,” O’Leary said in a statement released Friday by the university.

A biography released by Notre Dame on Sunday when it announced his hiring said O’Leary received a master’s degree from New York University in 1972. O’Leary was a student there but did not receive a degree, said John Beckman, assistant vice president for public affairs at NYU.

O’Leary, 55, also never earned a letter playing football at New Hampshire even though his biography says he earned three. In fact, the school said he never played in a game.

LINK:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/news/2001/12/14/oleary_notredame/

Truth

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Had to sack a guy a few months ago for ‘inconsistencies’ on his CV. This in its self is not good for the CV. He did ask for a reference which I gave stating that he had worked for us for six months. This caused his new employers to call me for more details.

He now works as a bouncer

Don’t lie, just jazz it up

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

There’s no reason to fabricate experience, you can just elaborate and make your own experience a little more appealing in the way it is presented.

Firtly, always research the companies you apply for; that’s why anonymous, web based job boards are a waste most of the time.

Once you find out what they need, elaborate on what you can offer and focus intently on the skills you can bring to the table that others may not.

You can sugar coat and sensationalize without needing to actually lie about anything.

Ever seen a website that appears to be a large, established corporation when in reality it’s a ma and pa operation from the basement?

Most of your ocmpetition will have little or no resume writing skills, or sales ability. Write a catchy resume focused on each specific jobtype, customize your cover letter to fit each company you apply for and sell yourself. It works 100% of the time.

Ok, it’s been a full week now…

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

I wonder if silvioandopauly DID lie on the resume…

Not worth the stupidity

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Do you want a bad reputation in the market place or not? I don’t have formal qualifications, but have still managed to prove myself, land the jobs and remain employed over the years. I constantly have to battle with people who are full of jargon and techspeak, but I can still get the job done by being ordinary and capable. So you either lie and become a fool, or you invest time actually training, or you are an old fart like me and have experience doing things. Good luck with your job hunting. I hope you get something shortly.

agree

In reply to Not worth the stupidity

Good luck with the job hunting. Waffling on your resume is not a good idea – especially if you’re a bad liar. Interviews are bad enough but if you have to substantiate your bogus resume, really the stress is not worth it.

what goes around comes around

In reply to agree

http://www.newsobserver.com/114/story/397586.html

sometimes

In reply to what goes around comes around

Lying about having a degree is a crazy risk. In some cases, talent and skill may be enough to convince that a person is qualified, but if a job specifically asks for a degree then there’s a good chance they will be checking up on it.

I don’t think Karma is the ultimate judge. For whatever reason or no reason at all, people will do what they can to inflict on others. Bad things will happen regardless – even to those who don’t deserve it unfortunately. On the other hand, how many of us have worked with people who don’t deserve the credit and still get away with it?

Honesty is the best policy!

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Don’t lie — but as the old advertising adage goes, “always tell the truth — in an interesting way.”

Bad idea

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

As a manager, the second I found out that you had “stretched the truth” about something as simple as a degree and training certification, I would show you the door, as I would then not trust anything that came out of your mouth. Don’t mean to be on the high horse, but hiring managers count integrity pretty high on the list of qualities we are looking for in new hires, so personally, I think that lying is a bad idea…
Why not take some of the certification tests, without taking the courses, if you’ve already taught yourself what you think you need to know? This would then lend you the credibility you are searching for…

go for it

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

As an interviewer i ask detailed questions about skills and certifications — even ask questions from the certification tests. And, when i find a candidate that is lying (there’s no getting by me) I ensure that that candidate is never offered a position anywhere in my company because lying goes against the company’s core values.

Hire a Professional …

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

… to help with your resume. They know the things that will help you get past screeners. Since this is the real problem you are trying to solve, it will be well worth the money.

No way

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

I have never lied on a resume, and never will. And it isn’t just about getting caught — and it certainly isn’t about morals. Here are some real reasons:

1. False expectations: you could be getting yourself in over your head if they expect you to have certain training or experience you don’t have. If the job isn’t a good match for you on your own qualifications, you’ll probably be just as miserable as you’ll make them.

2. If you’ve got the abilities, as you claim, then there is a valid way to sell that on your resume without the standard credentials. Some companies will be even more interested in a “self-made” candidate than in one who learned everything at school. Turn it into a positive.

3. If you get in on false pretenses, you’ll be looking over your shoulder all the time to see if “they” can tell. You’ll feel like you’ve cheated the system (which you have) and therefore you’ll question the validity of all of your own work, even if it is just as good as anything anybody else could produce.

Probably not worth it

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Just be aware that many companies treat this as grounds for dismissal if it ever comes to light.
A friend of mine lied about his salary when he got hired. He got away with it for quite a long time, but he will always be running the risk that if they find out, he could be presented with a box and given ten minutes to clear out his desk.

Be sure you can do the job…

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

I have been lucky enough that I have not had to lie.

That said if you can do the work and can get through the interview I think it is fine. [[As long as you are not under public srutiny]]

I have always been frustrated by not being able to get good jobs because my resume does not show that I can do it despite my confidence that I *can* do that.

I interview people now and I, personally, do not rely on the resume much. Do they seem smart? Are they able to explain themselves? Can they answer technical questions?

The resume is needed to get past the initial screen.

I would say give it a try, but be ready to take responsiblity if you fall flat on your face with the job.

If you can do the job great.

Another perspective … Look at all the sales people in cunsulting. I can’t tell you how many times I was committed to finish projects I had no skills to do… we succeeded, but it was painful.

How is this different from what you are trying to do on your resume?

How to hire people

In reply to Be sure you can do the job…

I agree. The resume gives some background info, but the thing a good hirer relies on most is what they can make out about the person applying: motivation is key above all else, and technical ability is secondary. I blogged about this at http://www.chipstips.com/microblog/index.php/post/14/

Never Falsify on a resume or app

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

If you flat out put false information on your resume or application and it is discovered, in most places that is grounds for termination.

What you can do, if there is a list of minimum requirements for the job and you can answer yes to part of the question/requirement but not all, is answer yes to it and then explain yourself in the interview.

Besides, there’s a good chance they might want transcripts and training certificates to back up your claim.

Thank You

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

I retired from the military a little over a year ago and found myself looking for a job in IT, I had just finished my BS in IT and had about 3 years working a what I call a PC tech, I took care of the the PC’s, Routers, Hubs, CAT5, etc. while some contractors were the actual “LAN Administrators.” It just seemed to me that everyone must be lying on their resumes, because most of the people I have dealt with were very short on ability. I kept my resume honest, and I am now working on an assembly line (Not in IT), pretty happy with the job, still keep my out for that perfect job though.

I didn’t all the posted replies but the ones I did read made me feel better about the integrity of the people I’ve been trying to work with, which is why I said Thank You.

DONT DO IT

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Listen, the solution to your issue is to just get
your degree! At this point of the game, you can get a degree in anything, like music. As long as you got the BA. Your experaince will carry you over.

In the mean time, register for classes at strayer university. They have online classes you can take from home. The are located in Washington DC area is highly respected by corporations and Government agencies. Sign up for one class and at that point you can put it on the resume. List it as currently attending.
Most employers will view you as having one at that point. You can take as long as you want on completing it. Just get into a program and do
not lie!!!! It will haunt you. They do check.
911 has caused them to call the schools and past employers.
I have seen companies excort liars off the premise. You do not want to face that.

no, but

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

I have never lied on a resume. I have put down that I knew how to program in a certain language, and then went out and taught myself that language.

that’s not lying…

In reply to no, but

…that’s like writing a check and then hurrying over to the bank to make a deposit. Nothing wrong with it, so long as you can get there in time. I’ve put technologies on a resume that I had only a cursory experience with, knowing that if I needed deeper knowledge it would be relatively easy for me to dig in and learn it on my own time. Heck, a lot of technologies these days are only four or five days from novicehood to cutting edge.

jail…

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

I worked for a corporate headhunter. We had an applicant that “stretched” the truth. He had the same name as someone who got a particular degree, and when degrees were checked, we just verified by name and graduation date. (20 years ago) When it was finally discovered, he went to jail, and we voluntarily returned a hefty fee back to the company, and replaced him for free as well. Of course, this is a bit more than “stretching”, but if you’ll tell a small lie, you’ll tell a big one.

Reply To: False information on resume – ever do it?

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

As others, in this forum, have advised, ?. . .take some of the certification tests. . .? to prove you have earned your education via the school of hard-knocks. Start a college program in CS or IT; whatever suits your needs. Not only will it give you the educational credentials you need to break down barriers, it will enrich both your technical and life skills.

Once, I had a guy working for me that was a graduate Electronics Engineer who, in his previous job, had to learn system level and electronic control technical programming. He had 15 years of professional design engineering experience to his credit, but very little knowledge of computer programming analysis or design. Over several months, he taught himself what he needed to, to keep his job. Over time, he continued to study a variety of subjects, from various programming languages to business productivity applications. Several years later, he applied for a position with me. The position, I was filling, was for a business Programmer/Analyst. After checking his experience, references, and reputation, I hired him. While with me, among other things, he became fairly proficient in designing and managing Oracle, Ingres, and Informix RDBMSs.

Now, if he had lied to me, about his background, especially on paper, he would have been making material misstatements of fact, i.e. telling lies. Since the position, he was applying for, was with the US Department of Defense, his lie(s) would have definitely bought him some serious jail time and a large fine. Also, he would never have been able to work for any government agency, any, direct or indirect contractor, or consultant. And, I am sure, when applying for any other position in CT, IT, or IM, his criminal record would be a potential block to any future employment.

You never know what you don?t know ? life just happens, sometimes.

Tell the Truth

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

As others, in this forum, have advised, ?. . .take some of the certification tests. . .? to prove you have earned your education via the school of hard-knocks. Start a college program in CS or IT; whatever suits your needs. Not only will it give you the educational credentials you need to break down barriers, it will enrich both your technical and life skills.

Once, I had a guy working for me that was a graduate Electronics Engineer who, in his previous job, had to learn system level and electronic control technical programming. He had 15 years of professional design engineering experience to his credit, but very little knowledge of computer programming analysis or design. Over several months, he taught himself what he needed to, to keep his job. Over time, he continued to study a variety of subjects, from various programming languages to business productivity applications. Several years later, he applied for a position with me. The position, I was filling, was for a business Programmer/Analyst. After checking his experience, references, and reputation, I hired him. While with me, among other things, he became fairly proficient in designing and managing Oracle, Ingres, and Informix RDBMSs.

Now, if he had lied to me, about his background, especially on paper, he would have been making material misstatements of fact, i.e. telling lies. Since the position, he was applying for, was with the US Department of Defense, his lie(s) would have definitely bought him some serious jail time and a large fine. Also, he would never have been able to work for any government agency, any, direct or indirect contractor, or consultant. And, I am sure, when applying for any other position in CT, IT, or IM, his criminal record would be a potential block to any future employment.

You never know what you don?t know ? life just happens, sometimes.

Not on your life.

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Yes, I’d like a better job and wished I had their qualifications. But stooping to stretching the truth I have never done in my life.

I wanted into the IT field. I never lied about what I knew and what I was qualified for. Even to this day, now that I became A+ and Network+ certified and working towards my Server+ certification, I still am honest with people when I tell them what I can and can’t do.

Then again, that’s just me.

DON’T

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Don’t do it. I’m beating the dead horse by telling you this, but even if you win and get the job, you will need to uphold your lies at some point. This will eat at you.

We did some interviewing about a year ago and several candidates lied about experience with IIS. One candidate who has experience with IIS on his resume didn’t know what the acronym “IIS” stood for, much less worked with it. I immediately excluded these candidates from consideration.

Another, more egregious example, was a guy who applied through a consulting company to work for my company. He had previous experience with our company and he lied about a role he had on a particular project for my company. It wasn’t an embellishment…it was a flat out lie. He never had a chance; the consulting company was baffled…they figured he was perfect, but you simply shouldn’t lie on your resume.

Radio Shack to investigate CEO r?sum? claims

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

From Austin-American Statesman newspaper, Feb 16, 22006
http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stories/technology/02/16radioshack.html

[i]The board of RadioShack Corp. said Wednesday that it would hire outside lawyers to investigate errors in chief executive David Edmondson’s r?sum?, including claims that he earned two college degrees for which the school he attended has no records.

Edmondson said he took responsibility for the errors. He added that he still believes he earned one of the degrees but cannot document it.

“The contents of my r?sum? and the company’s Web site were clearly incorrect,” Edmondson said in a statement. “I clearly misstated my academic record, and the responsibility for these misstatements is mine alone.”

Edmondson had claimed that he received degrees in theology and psychology from Pacific Coast Baptist College in California, which moved in 1998 to Oklahoma and renamed itself Heartland Baptist Bible College.

The school’s registrar told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram that records showed Edmondson completed only two semesters and that the school never offered degrees in psychology.

Edmondson, 46, joined RadioShack in 1994 and has been CEO since May. He said Wednesday that he believes that he received a theology diploma called a ThG but not the four-year bachelor of science degree listed on his r?sum?.

He added that he cannot document the ThG diploma. [/i]

Moral of the story. Don’t lie.

Don’t do it…ever.

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

I have NEVER placed false information on a resume.

I’ve done a myriad of different things over the years, so having SOME knowledge and experience is easy to put down. The thing is that while I’ve done a lot of things, I haven’t necessarily done a lot of any one thing. So how do you put that in a resume? You list it with tasks accomplished during the date ranges of that employment. That way there’s not a lie about what you have experience in, nor in how much experience you have in it. If it comes up in an interview, you can explain it then – truthfully.

Other things like, “CME-level of experience”. I know self-trained people who never went after their certs who know their stuff better than the so-called experts who have all the certs. They saved several thousand dollars that way, but don’t have the cert on their resume. You need the words to get through the automated screens; but don’t say you’re degreed or certified if you’re not; say you have the equivalent of that in knowledge and experience.

When the job is a lie…..

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

Resumes should be edited towards the position being applied for. If a person has experience in 10 different areas; then he should have 10 different resumes to distribute.
Frequently corporations are—-
1. Only fishing to see if Einstein will walk in the door….If you are ordinary joe or even highly intelligent maxine; then you won’t get hired. ( if you are Einstein and you do get hired then your salary should be 500,000 a year!!
2. You WILL be interviewed if you have a Honorable discharge from the armed services; however this is NOT because the COrp has a position; it is because the Co wants you to fill out that form that gets them a gold star from uncle sam for interviewing the vet. But you won’t get a job. Sianara!!
3. Personnel hasn’t written the requirements for the job you are interviewing for, correctly–You can’t copy a request for a 20-year cobol expert and just change the ‘cobol’ to ‘delphi’ ( hint–Delphi hasn’t been around for 20 years and Delphi is a GUI ).
4. If you are lying to Fannie Mae or Enron–So what!!?? the entire corporate philosophy is a lie, before you walk in the Door!! HA!!
5. You can lose the job you gain in the interview for the most ridiculous of reasons—my interviewer had flunked out of West Point; so when he saw my hon discharge on the resume as an NCO–I was out the door from XXX ( famous )corp!! Keep your military service off of the resume—let them find out later that they can’t lay you off because you are a vet!!! ( or shouldn’t! )
6. In the same token when an interviewer handed me a paper to read; and I put on my bifocals to read it—I was out the door as the last network administrator had destroyed the network’s applications by switching everything to large type!!–Start the interview with your bifocals already on!!
7. I told one company I had 15 years experience; but they made me take the tests anyway-Stupid!!
When I messed up a stupid interviewer question–they said I wasn’t qualified!! HA!! If I had been lying, I would have said I had 2 years experience.
So rote quizzes by people who don’t know the subject; are entirely useless in qualifying people!!!–Their loss, not mine!
8. The manager actually wants an installer for his applications; but somebody says he can only hire a programmer.–Personnel will hire the programmer; however you will end up doing installations!? So who lied?? And if you embellished your programming abilities a tad–does it matter!!??
9. A Salesman interviewed me for one IT job and he interviewed me for his sales job!!!??? Since I needed a job bad at the time; I said Yes!, I would like to travel to all 50 states and sell the application to each state government!! A complete and utterly useless interview to which I assented, enthusiastically. I got the job doing the GUI!!! This was at a company that does space applications for the government!!!???
10. After I was hired to sustain an old mainframe system and convert it to a PC-Network based one, I was pressed into interviewing also.
A cracker-jack Linux network administrator was interviewed and the management was all for hiring him!! They asked me-I said yes! Hire him—but not for this Project!! When they said Why!!?? I said there was no way he can pick up cobol and OS jcl in 3 months; and if you wanted to utterly destroy him–you should tell him you are supporting a cobol system for a while, soon to be converted to a novell network-oracle system!!!–You can get hired for the wrong job and the wrong reasons no matter what is on your resume–so you will have to tell them later—What The…!!!???
11. The most important feature of an individual should be whether he gets the job done ( no matter what the job is ); certifications just make the cert company rich ( and have to be constantly renewed ) Does your Doctor or Lawyer get re-certified every 3 years??? Where is his new certification diploma??? An individual should include a success rate on his resume for his projects and explain away any disasters–such as “I came on the project 2 years after it started and the 50 people already on it had failed to accomplish it, spending 6 million dollars–at which point the government fired us”–
( local impressive IT company ).

Goofy Details

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

What you say are “goofy details” are things that others have worked hard for. If you more my employee and I found out that you lied on your resume 5 years ago, I’d fire you in a second. Not only do you lack the motivation to get a degree or a certification, but you also lack truth and honesty.

well screwed

In reply to False information on resume – ever do it?

u know what..lots of my friend did it and at the end they are screwed..it’s better adding basic in front of everything..

once my friend got the jobs knowing he did not knew anything about it..becouse in the resume stated “well knowledge in program development in VB,C,C++ and pascal”

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