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Gas Prices

By rkuhn ·
You know, I really just want to puke.

After reading the following two articles, I have come to the conclusion that the granola eating, hairy armpit, tree hugging crowd along with the professors, '60's flower power, and theoretical BS crowd just don't get it.

http://biz.yahoo.com/nytimes/080620/1194786578804.html?.v=19

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080619/sc_nm/fuel_efficiency_dc

I would agree as I think most would that we have to end our dependence on oil. For security reasons, for environmental reasons, for lots of reasons.

But what these people just don't get is that the rapid and largely unexplained raise in oil (gas, heating, electric...this is just the beginning) is killing the lower income crowd.

You know, as a hardcore independent, conservative (I'd be a Republican but they too like the Democrats have screwed everything up) I'd like to say "oh well, that's the free market".

But this is different. Poor people's lives are being screwed with. Imagine for a second (hopefully most of you are like me and aren't lower income, after all we are supposedly in a higher paying field). But imagine for a second that the one thing you can't do without (oil) is breaking the bank.

Imagine living in a city without a meaningful mass transit system. Imagine living in a city where your current home value has depreciated to the point where you can't move.

Imagine paying 20% of your income just to drive to work and keep the power on. Then, insult to injury...cereal, bread, milk...they all go up.

Imagine telling your son or daughter that there won't be any presents under the tree this year because all your present money went to some Saudi king.

What's next? Where's the next hurricane?

Imagine being a single parent with two kids making $30,000 a year. Imagine for a second.

What the **** have our "leaders" been doing for the last 30 years? It's time to kick them all out of office.

Where's the solar power? Nuclear? Where the **** is all the sources of power we need without paying the towel heads (sorry) all the money we give them so they can finance the guns, bombs and other crap to turn around and kill us?

I've had it. My ballot in November will be all write in's. No voting for the freaking Democrats or Republicans.

How did we get to this point? I'll tell you. We got here because all of our "leaders" are too busy being greedy, self serving and worthless. To them, it's not about what can I do for my country, it's about how many times they get get their ugly face on TV and how many special interest dollars they can get.

They need to stop talking and start getting something done.

I work my *** off for a living. I manage my house pretty darn well. All I ask is for our "leaders" to do the same.

P.S. Many books have been written about the next world war. It's not going to be about politics, nationality, race, whatever.

It'll be about resources. Prepare yourself.

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Gotta Take Your Side

by rkuhn In reply to Well all I can say

I have to take Techno Rat's side on this one.

Seems to me I've read an article in our Sunday newspaper dispelling all Oz's myths.

Unforunately, I can't find it on-line right now.

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Sure

by Oz_Media In reply to Gotta Take Your Side

And I can dig up 20 dispeslling those MYTHS. Instead of buying into newspaper hype, why not think logically about it.

DO yuo really think that a properly runnign car with a full tank of gas is less efficient that one that has been running on a qurter tanmk for a few months? Give your head a shake and get prepared to pay the mechanics bills.

I don't min, I get people like you all the time. They read it in a book once, but why is their car in MY garage today while they are trying to get me to sign off on a conditional Air Care pass?

I'll pull the filters and throttle body, show them the crap they sucked off the bottom off the tank and them hand them the bill too.

If you want to argue with a mechanic, go ot yoru shop and tell him your BS. I don't have time for this crap, unless you want me to pull your car apart and show you the problems you are ignoring.

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According to yoru post

by Oz_Media In reply to Well all I can say

You must be highly qualified then.

Common antiknock additives include:
Tetra-ethyl lead
Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT)
Ferrocene
Iron pentacarbonyl
Toluene
Isooctane


They still use burn rate modifiers that reduce ping and post-ignition conbustion that they were using in leaded gas in eth 70's.

Detergents are a main additive, detergents for cleaning injectors (stopping them from gumming up).

You have clearly displayed absolutely no knowledge on the subject at all, that's okay nobody expects you to know about fuels if you have not studied them,and even with facts put forth, you STILL continue to tirelessly drone on and on about absolute garbage without a clue.

If you have a plethora of engineer friends, why are you asking me? I am an automotive engineer, and I am tellign you the plain facts that you can look up yourself anytime. if you want to argue about something of which you admittedly have no knowledge, go for it, but you are on your own.

There are others on TR that share this knowledge too, I wonder why they haven't piped in to correct me?

As for teh US havign better gas than Canada, think again. We have stricter guidelines than most US states, the only one that is close to Canada is Califronia after the emissions act of 1986.

As for which grade or what the best is in the US, it varies by state and can't be determined, the fact that you even mentioned it tells me you have no idea what you are trying to debate.

For someoen with a host of automotive engineers ot talk to "from the auto engineers I talked to" you should be a little more aware, its surprising. I'd say you were probably talking to Automotive mechanics, when I was in school most accepted that certification as opposed to another 3 years of school. Out of every 60 mechanics I'd say perhaps 1 or 2 go on to become engineers or members of the SAE.

If you want to learn about gasoline: http://faqs.cs.uu.nl/na-dir/autos/gasoline-faq/part1.html

I feel like I've just given a child an automatic gun, just read it carefully before extracting single sentences to throw out as your argument.

if yuo want to know more, pay the cash, put in the time and go to school yourself. I don't get paid for arguing automotive with clueless people on internet forums.

I offered you teh facts, you seem to not want to accept them. Go talk to your engineer buddies and argue with them instead.

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Pay attention dummy

by Tearat In reply to According to yoru post

I am from New Zealand not the United States of America

Yes we have a different fuel to you
They use different additives
Duh its not that hard I am sure you can remember who you are talking to if you try really hard

I wrote in my first post
Do not fill the car up any more than you have too (why carry around the weight of extra fuel)
Well you screwed that up
I did not say run around with an empty tank
What does extra mean?
Take reading lessons you seem to need them

You lost the chance of a meaningful discussion right there

But in the next post I wrote
So ? to ? is right for most cars
Still not saying empty

With your reading lessons get some help with your spelling

One other thing
Just in case scenarios mean nothing to me
They have been distorted by sales and marketing so much it is a pointless argument now

I did not ask you
You got on your soapbox and started preaching

My original post
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=267053&messageID=2528622

Was an attempt to help someone with the rising price of fuel

You do go on and on and on
Talk about off topic

Lets see if I can get this right
The Internet is a game
The real world is outside
Try life you?ll like it

Now who was it that said that

Why the others have not piped in

Well they may think it?s a waste of time arguing with someone who conveniently misreads a post just to start an argument
I think you do it on purpose

Maybe they think an off topic rant is not worth responding to

Your posts are so much like trolling it?s not funny

But that?s life
Loony?s are a part of life

PS your hatred of the yanks is making you blind
New Zealand remember not yank
Got it now?
The clue
Its on the map

My engineer buddies laughed when I showed them what you wrote
I joined in

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Sure they did

by Oz_Media In reply to According to yoru post

I stated several times over that you shouldn't run less than a 1/4 tank. I didn't say empty either, perhaps a few comprehension skills upgrades would help you, but I did say why manufacturers don't recommend running too low and, if empty, the need to replace the fuel filter. So if fuel does not gum up your tank and sludge as well as other contaminants commonly found in fuels, why would they recommend replacing the fuel filter? Does it help strain the kiwi juice or something?

Why would that be, do you think?

Perhaps your engineer buddies can help you with that one.

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Re: Oz - Fuel Guidelines

by rkuhn In reply to According to yoru post

You said, "As for teh US havign better gas than Canada, think again. We have stricter guidelines than most US states, the only one that is close to Canada is Califronia after the emissions act of 1986."

One question for you:

It's an established fact that the various chemicals added to fuel in places like California and Canada (year round) and elsewhere (typically in summer months) to help fight ozone and smog actually decrease gas mileage. Usually by 1-3%.

Now the question. Don't you think that while decreasing the pollutants put out is good that decreasing the gas mileage is bad?

I mean really, so I put out less pollutants per gallon but I end up using more gallons.

Nice! Who was the freaking genius that came up with this idea?

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too true, but consumers demand cheap crap.

by Oz_Media In reply to According to yoru post

It is actually vehicles in North America that are most responsible for poor fuel combustion. Our vehicles are built cheap, the engines are of the absolute minimum to pass specs. This is how they keep car prices low so that people here will buy them.

It seems that people here are far more concerned abotu the bottom line when buying a car than the quality of engineering.

that's why identical models in Europe are actually nuilt way better than out here, even with North American manufacturers products, European versions are built better that North American.

Additives are ALWAYS in gas, summer, winter, fall in all countries, additives were initially used to stop knock and ping due to pre and post ignition combustion. In North American this is even mroeso due to lighter weight materials where the engines run hotter, thus causing ignition in the exhaust process. Ford designed a thermactor system for reburing emitted gas as so much fuel was wasted creating higher emissions.

GM used a similar system but just a check valve to recycle exhaust into the manifold again. and so on for various manufacturers.

With the poorly designed, cheap engines we face here, we have no hope for getting a full burn and getting maximum fuel efficiency.

Just take the compact spare tire for example.
they put a cheap, steel stamped rim with a 60km tire in the back (apparently) to make the car lighter and improve mileage.

While is does reduce trunk weight a slight bit, the key advantage was the cost of a compact spare compared to a full size tire and rim. Again, it merely keeps the consumers bottom line lower, while offering a meanial fuel advantage.

While people around teh world think we live in prosperous and rich countries, everyone has a heap of money from such lucrative enterprises in North America, the reality is people are just too cheap and demand cheap crap of teh lowest quality.

Just look at our retail environment, same thing. Cheap crap manufactured merely for offering lower prices to entice North American consumers.

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From your comment titled Resourceful

by Tearat In reply to According to yoru post

?1) longer vehicle life and lower emissions. Running low (1/4 or less) on gas makes your vehicle burn sludge from teh bottom of teh tank, this harms your injectors, thorwing off the emission system and also kills teh fuel filter, gums up the fuels lines, fuel rail and makes the injector pins stick. Your vehicles engine works harder with a low gas level than it does pulling the added weight of a full tank.?

Note the statement (? or less)

No you didn?t say empty
I did not say less than a ?

But thanks for all the info you posted it helps people to understand why manufacturers do what the do
It is well known the US cars are of low quality
I did not think Canada was the same
How many carmakers are there?

PS I did not say what we laughed about

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See what I mean?

by Oz_Media In reply to According to yoru post

We didn't actiually disagree, we just couldn't see the middle ground. You accused me of stating something I didn't and vice versa, but you have seen the difference and we actually don't even have any argument in our posts about it.

Fair enough on taht then,

As for car makers in canada, I am abotu to leave so i can't look it up, but we do have quite a few in the eastern provinces, that also make cars for teh US market. From what I know they are the same with the exception that we have to follow emissions guidelines similar to California, but that is pretty much everywhere now.

Now if I had said the USA makes crappy cars, that would be anti-American wouldn't it?

We don't build anything, not just cars, as well as they do in Europe. But times are changing, Europeans are starting to feel an economic crunch and are seeking price over quality in many areas, not just vehicles.

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I am under no illusion

by Tearat In reply to According to yoru post

That I make no mistakes
I will apologise if necessary
It is part of being human nobody is perfect

But there is a type of person who takes great enjoyment in rubbing peoples faces in their mistakes
Some of them will go on and on until the victim explodes
Then the creeps act as if they are innocent

Try not to be one of those will you
No I did not call you a creep
That would mean you were being paranoid
I know you are not

Also comparing character flaws is stupid

Anyway there is always a need for cheep things
Sometimes its all people can afford

?Now if I had said the USA makes crappy cars, that would be anti-American wouldn't it??
Maybe you are paranoid

It is very difficult for first world countries to compete with the third world
Some of the poor will work for food
I know I can?t compete with that

Damn some of that looks pompous
Never mind just another flaw
Its good to be human

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