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Hard disk problem

By melina_soemanto_putri ·
I am trying to make a backup data from my hard disk that has "Bad Block" problem by copying them to another hard disk.
But aside form Event I 7 Error: "The device \Device\Harddisk1\D has a bad block" (I know Harddisk1 refers to my hard disk that has "Bad Block") some other events appears:

1.Event I 26 Warning:"The driver has detected that device \Device\Ide\IdePort0 has old or out-of-date firmware" Reduced performance may result" I wonder why this event appears, I used my hard disk before get a bad block and never get this event.

2.Event I 51 Warning:"An error was detected on device \Device\Harddisk1\D during a paging operation"
3.Event I 9 Error:"The device, \Device\Ide\IdePort0, did not respond within timeout period"
4.Event I 11 Error:"The driver detected a controller error on \Device\Ide\IdePort0" This event only appears 1 time,though.

I wonder what the cause of these events appearing (it is just because my hard disk that has "bad block" or there is another cause aside from it).

And what should I do with the hard disk that reported has a bad block? (Does formatting it resolved this problem or should I get a new hard disk)

If I choose get a new hard disk, will the Bad Blocks appears as soon as possible in my new hard disk if I copying my backup data (the data that was copied from the hard disk that has "Bad Blocks" to the hard disk that was used for backup) to my new hard disk?

If not, how many long that new hard disk will get "Bad Blocks" problem?

The last thing I want to know, what is the real cause of "Bad Blocks"? Because my PC has a hard disk that is almost 6 years old and doesn't get a "Bad Block" and My brother has an exactly same type of hard disk that mine which has "Bad Blocks", but he doesn't get this problem, my hard disk that has a "Bad Blocks" and my brothers is bought on same day.

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Thanks for your information

Thanks for your information and the link.

I want to ask some more:
1.I don't think that caused my HD to fail is Heat and Vibration, this HD has lower temperature than the other two my computer place in a desk that hardly move.

If these two was the cause, especially vibration. Won't the other two also get Bad Blocks problem? Does the placing of HD could make this problem, this HD with Bad Blocks is placed in the middle of the other two.

Could poor/failing cable and/or motherboard caused HD to fail?

2.I want to ask about weird things in my HDs.
I think it about the file system.

a.I set a folder to be view by list (View in Toolbar->List). But after I shutdown/restart my PC, that folder change into other modes of view like Thumbnails/Icons. I check Remember each folder settings in Folder Options menu.
I wonder what caused it?

b.Sometimes a folder is automatically arranged by name when I'm add new file into it. Explanation: the new file was at the end of list but when I change folder then go back to that folder the new file was automatically sorted by name. What caused it?

3.Does too much copying/moving file to a folder at once could damage the HD?

4.Could you give me a suggestion about doing backup?
a.The good place for backup?
b.How often I should do it?
c.The good method for backup?

5.I was deleting some file of the HD with Bad Blocks. I used McAfee Shredder to delete the files in the Recycle Bin but the shredding operation is slower than usual. What could caused it?

6.Does it normal to have high CPU usage (80-100%) when copying files? I'm experiencing it right now when I'm made a backup to my external HD.

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Well in theory at least

by OH Smeg In reply to Thanks for your informati ...

1.I don't think that caused my HD to fail is Heat and Vibration, this HD has lower temperature than the other two my computer place in a desk that hardly move.

If these two was the cause, especially vibration. Won't the other two also get Bad Blocks problem? Does the placing of HD could make this problem, this HD with Bad Blocks is placed in the middle of the other two.


Yes they would but you have to consider that different HDD have different Manufacturing Tolerances and the parts inside them also have different Manufacturing Tolerances. So if you got some parts at one extreme and other parts at the other extreme of the Manufacturing Tolerances it could cause the drive to be less reliable than others mounted above or below it that are closer to the Design then this drive is.

Could poor/failing cable and/or motherboard caused HD to fail?

Yes it can but these things tend to be more pronounced and tend to affect everything connected to the M'Board or cable.

2.I want to ask about weird things in my HDs.
I think it about the file system.

a.I set a folder to be view by list (View in Toolbar->List). But after I shutdown/restart my PC, that folder change into other modes of view like Thumbnails/Icons. I check Remember each folder settings in Folder Options menu.
I wonder what caused it?


This is Windows and it is poorly coded and badly written it just does as it pleases. Different hardware combinations mixed with Manufacturing Tolerances in the mechanical Bits and the Electronic Parts can all combine to make one item fail and others to keep working. Just the same as some hardware causes the code not to work correctly. It's not worth the Hundreds of Years involved and the fact that it's also against M$'s EULA to go though the code Line by Line to fix problems with it and your individual hardware.

b.Sometimes a folder is automatically arranged by name when I'm add new file into it. Explanation: the new file was at the end of list but when I change folder then go back to that folder the new file was automatically sorted by name. What caused it?

This is or at least should be because the Folder/s are set to Auto Arrange by Name. With Windows it may or may not work reliably on all folders.

3.Does too much copying/moving file to a folder at once could damage the HD?

Coping files no but constantly Testing HDD can cause problems. A simple copy process only uses a small part of the drives ability where as a full test uses it all and leaves no room for error. After all it is designed to do just this so it has to test everything.

4.Could you give me a suggestion about doing backup?
a.The good place for backup?
b.How often I should do it?
c.The good method for backup?


Well for domestic applications I don't like Backup software because things change and what works now may not work on replacement Hardware. Domestic places generally speaking just don't have any reserves of hardware and if something needs to be replaced with a new computer that Software may not run on th new OS that is loaded on the new computer.

An example that recently was complained about was some person backing up their Data encrypted and the Encryption Key on XP and when that computer failed and was replaced with a new one loaded with Vista, Vista didn't support the XP Encryption Method and the data was now useless to that person. Most people don't even bother or know that they have to backup the encryption key as they can open their files from the backup on their computer and they never think about what is involved if they have to replace a broken computer.

A good place for a Backup depends on the individual and what they use to Backup with and I mean hardware here to CD Blanks, Blank DVD,s USB Thumb Drives or External HDD's not a software solution. Depending on the individual and what is used they can lock it away somewhere other than home so if there is a fire they still have their data to recover from. In business where I work everything is stored off site and a long way away with full backups done daily and Incremental done hourly. Domestic applications don't require that but they may need to backup all the data weekly or monthly and then store the media in a place that is hidden and not obvious at home. It really depends on the individual and what they are prepared to do and pay.

c.The good method for backup?

Again this depends on the circumstances of the individual and just how paranoid they are about their data. I personally prefer plain unencrypted data dumps to a external HDD as you will always be able to read that if something nasty happens. If you where to use a Tape Drive to backup you may find or will most likely find that your Tapes are useless as you can not read them in different hardware when they re really needed as the new tape drive is a different format. A External HDD with a USB or Firewire Connection will be usable for a very long time over a large range of Hardware but as you change your hardware you need to change your Backup Plan.

5.I was deleting some file of the HD with Bad Blocks. I used McAfee Shredder to delete the files in the Recycle Bin but the shredding operation is slower than usual. What could caused it?

This is because the drive is failing and developing more & more bad blocks. The more bad blocks on the surface of the platter the longer things take as the Heads loose their way and get lost so the drive has to reinitialize a lot more often that it should. Think of the platter as a town and the heads being directed to where they need to go by a map that looks at the surroundings and then gives directions on where to go. Once the surroundings become blank the map has to return to the beginning and start allover again. So it takes longer to do the same thing as it would on a undamaged drive.

6.Does it normal to have high CPU usage (80-100%) when copying files? I'm experiencing it right now when I'm made a backup to my external HD.

No Normally it doesn't but the harder you make something work the more Resources it is going to use. So in this case with a failing HDD the drive has to constantly return to the beginning and start all over again every time it looses the positioning of the heads so the CPU has to send more instructions and work harder to find our what is happening to do the same operation as it would on a working HDD. The more errors that you introduce to something the harder the system has to work to do as you told it to.

Col

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Thanks for yor previous reply,OH Smeg

Thanks for your previous reply, OH Smeg.

I'm going to change my HD this weekend.
I'm still have some questions,though.

1.Do you know what could affect SMART Value? Does it just the HD or another Hardwares could affect it?

I want to know this because:
The "Raw Read Error Rate" Current value of my brother HD was 118 2-3 days ago, after he used torrents to download 2 file about 170MBs, the value lowers into 115 and sometimes have unstable Current Value sometimes it is could be 109 or 114.

My 6 years old HD also sometimes has unstable Current Value between 62 or 63.

Lower "Raw Read Error Rate" Current Value mean the HD having trouble accessing sectors/indicate that there is a problem with either disk surface or read/write heads.

Could you clarify torrents could caused these things/not? These HDs don't have Bad Blocks though.

2a.In SMART Value there should be 186 Bad Sectors/Bad Blocks, the last time I scan it only found 173 Bad Blocks. Do you know what caused it?
b.It seems the Bad Blocks mostly in Free Space in my HD because I don't get many CRC error when copying my file to my External HD only about 3-4 times. What could cause Bad Blocks in the Free Space?

3.Could you give me a suggestion about a good type/brands of internal HD and how big an internal HD that people has now in average?

4.What could caused an External HD to failed/What problem could happen to an External HD and How long does an External HD usually working(not failing)?

5.How do I check condition of Hardwares?
Like Cable,HD,Motherboards,Memory,Controller.

6a.Does constantly(every day) adding/moving files in HD make physical damage in the HD?
b.Does having too much files even the files is compressed into .zip or .rar could make Bad Blocks/physical damages in the HD?
c.Some people said that Bad Blocks is logical problem, the others said it is physical problem. Or it should be physical problem that caused the logical problem.Which one is true or all of them are right?

7.Does the changing of a HD or another Hardware in a clean environment? Which place is considered clean?

8.I'm going to get a replacement to the shop where I bought the HD 1 years ago, what should I do if the shop owner refuse it?
I'm not really fond about shipping process in my country.
Maybe I will post some more question if the SMART Value in question number 1 could indicates a problem or I want to ask some miscellaneous questions.

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1

by OH Smeg In reply to Thanks for yor previous r ...

1.Do you know what could affect SMART Value? Does it just the HD or another Hardwares could affect it?

Well there are certainly other things that come into play in how fast a HDD can work in a computer. The biggest is the M'Board. If it is a ATA 33 that is as fast as the M'Board can allow the Drive to send/receive data. 33 MEG per Second and if it is a ATA 150 that is as fast as the drive can move data 150 MEG per Second or to put it more correctly that is as fast as the M'Board can copy/send Data to the HDD. Then there is the IDE Lead which can limit the speed of Data Transfer the old 40 way connector is limited to a 66 ATA Speed and if you have a M'Board that supports faster transfer you need one of the newer 80 Way Cables. While these things will limit speed of Transfer they shouldn't affect anything else.

I want to know this because:
The "Raw Read Error Rate" Current value of my brother HD was 118 2-3 days ago, after he used torrents to download 2 file about 170MBs, the value lowers into 115 and sometimes have unstable Current Value sometimes it is could be 109 or 114.


This depends on what is being used to perform the test here but it looks like the speed that the drive and copy/read data and the more fragmented it is the slower it will be.

Lower "Raw Read Error Rate" Current Value mean the HD having trouble accessing sectors/indicate that there is a problem with either disk surface or read/write heads.

Could you clarify torrents could caused these things/not? These HDs don't have Bad Blocks though.


Torrents Should Not be causing this to occur at all. After all they are a constant fairly slow write to the HDD and if you where to say RIP a DVD Movie from the Commercial Format to a DVD Single Layer Blank the data would be written to the HDD faster and keep it working harder over a shorter period of time than a Torrent would. Of course with a failing drive constant low level use over a long period may increase the likely hood of problems occurring. It really depends on why the Bad Sectors are forming. If it is Physical damage to the Platter this shouldn't make any difference but if there is a Electronic Failure on the Circuit Board which has become degraded enough this could cause the problem to get worse. But if that is the case just using the drive will cause the problem to get worse so while it may appear to happen with a Torrent it would have anyway. So over all I would say that it doesn't make any difference what you use within reason of course.

2a.In SMART Value there should be 186 Bad Sectors/Bad Blocks, the last time I scan it only found 173 Bad Blocks. Do you know what caused it?
b.It seems the Bad Blocks mostly in Free Space in my HD because I don't get many CRC error when copying my file to my External HD only about 3-4 times. What could cause Bad Blocks in the Free Space?


Again this depends on what is used to Test the Drive it may not read all the Data Area and miss some Bad Blocks under Data. It may look at what is where on the drive and only test the Unused space and think that anything that should have Data on it doesn't need testing. If that is the case the Bad Blocks will be unreported under the Data and the affected Data will be corrupt. You need to remember that any Test is only that a test and shouldn't be considered as a Definitive Answer by itself unless of course you have a total failure. These Tests are a Guide Only and will vary with the hardware installed. Think of them like Medical Tests. Any Test will tell you that you have got something if you have well if carried out correctly at least. But that same test Can Not tell you do not have something it can only say we can find no trace of such & Such. Come back in 3 weeks/Months to be tested again. So that doesn't mean that you don;'t have something it just means that no trace of it can be found at this point in time. Sure you could live at the doctors and constantly have whatever being drained out of you and constantly be being tested for something but in reality that's just not going to happen and if it did what would be the point of it anyway? Well other than using up all your money quickly there would be no point in having the tests performed would there?

3.Could you give me a suggestion about a good type/brands of internal HD and how big an internal HD that people has now in average?

Well personally I like Seagate Drives at the moment. They seem to be reasonably reliable cheap and well they just work. I haven't needed to replace too many while Under Guarantee but I have had to replace some. Then Seagate send Repaired Drives and they only last about a month and then die. I just don't bother with any Repaired Drives as they are not worth the risk of using. Of course there are some places like Banks who never allow a HDD to leave the Organization intact they destroy these and there have not been too many Seagate's in these places that I have sent to be totally destroyed that have just died. Somewhere around the 2% mark of all the drives that I use or supervise fail.

As for size that depends on what you have in the way of hardware. Obviously a DX33 486 can not use one of the multi Gig Drives that are currently being used. And you need to look at what the hardware can use. If you have a IDE Interface then BIOS Dictates the Upper Size Drive you can fit to that computer. If BIOS supports 276 GIG you don't fit a 500 GIG Drive and have it working. So there is no Correct Answer here it depends on what you can use in the hardware that you have available to you.

4.What could caused an External HD to failed/What problem could happen to an External HD and How long does an External HD usually working(not failing)?

Again Heat & Vibration are the biggest killers of HDD's. But in the case of External Drives you need to look at the Enclosure being used if it is plastic and the drive is left running all the time it will have a much shorter life than in a Metal Enclosure with Active Cooling. Ideally any External Drive shouldn't be left running 24/7 they should only be turned on when they are needed and if you need a constant on drive use an internal one as the chassis of the Case acts as a Heat Sink to keep the drive cooler. Also any fan in the case helps to cool the drive so with more metal surface area the cooler a drive will run. Plastic stops heat escaping so they run much hotter and don't live anywhere near as long.

5.How do I check condition of Hardwares?
Like Cable,HD,Motherboards,Memory,Controller.


Download and run the Ultimate Boot CD occasionally to see if there are any hardware issues cropping up.

http://tinyurl.com/3jnpy

But the reality is if you keep the case closed and just use the computer things like IDE Leads do not fail all that often. They generally fail because they are being fiddled with if you set and forget they tend to last longer and I've have seen a few 8 year old computers that are still working as well as the day that they where made. Then again I've seen a 6 Month Old system where the end user fiddles with it and has destroyed in it that period of time. They where not satisfied in ripping the plugs off the IDE Cabled but they had to touch things with no Static Control in place and then try to say that they didn't do anything and this is UG and they will sue if it isn't repaired, Of course the maker Overclocked it from new so they lost from the word go.

6a.Does constantly(every day) adding/moving files in HD make physical damage in the HD?
b.Does having too much files even the files is compressed into .zip or .rar could make Bad Blocks/physical damages in the HD?


No it doesn't hurt anything except that the drive is being used and has a limited life so the longer it is used the shorter the life will be when measured in the Number of Years that a Individual Drive Lasts. If a New HDD is placed in packing material in a safe for 10 years it should work after it is pulled out and connected to a computer. Well if that interface is still supported anyway. But that doesn't mean that it has lasted longer because it hasn't been used it just means that it hasn't been used and so has it's full number of hours left to run.

b.Does having too much files even the files is compressed into .zip or .rar could make Bad Blocks/physical damages in the HD?

Well as such there is no definitive answer here the more that is on a drive the longer things like Defrags take. And if you exceed a certain limit the drives performance slows down under the OS you are using. So if you use 86% of the drive and store data on it all the time the performance will be less and your ability to use the tools that you normally would is diminished or removed. But otherwise there is no difference to the reliability of the drive. Though under some OS's you are limited to the number of Root Files that they can address so while the HDD can store more the OS will not support this as a option as it is unable to map these files.

c.Some people said that Bad Blocks is logical problem, the others said it is physical problem. Or it should be physical problem that caused the logical problem.Which one is true or all of them are right?

It depends on the individual drive. Bad Blocks can be either a Physical Problem or a Logical Problem depending on what is failing in the drive. If the Magnetic Material on the Platter is failing for any reason this is a Physical Problem if the Bad Blocks are developing because the Circuit Board has been degraded this is a Logical Problem. There is no correct answer here fro all drives only for the drive that is being talked about.

7.Does the changing of a HD or another Hardware in a clean environment? Which place is considered clean?

I don't know what you mean here if it is move the drive to another computer provided that the drive is treated properly it shouldn't hurt anything. But if you have a drive in a computer for the life of that computer and then move it to a new one it is far more likely to fail in the new one than the old one. Simply because it is older and has had more use so it has got closer to the end of it's Design Life.

If you mean open the drive and change things this has to be carried out in a Class 1 Clean Room if the drive has any chance to survive longer than a few minutes.

8.I'm going to get a replacement to the shop where I bought the HD 1 years ago, what should I do if the shop owner refuse it?
I'm not really fond about shipping process in my country.
Maybe I will post some more question if the SMART Value in question number 1 could indicates a problem or I want to ask some miscellaneous questions.


I'm not exactly sure what you mean here if it is return the drive for a Warranty Repair then that isn't the Shop Owners problem it is between you and the Company who issues the Drive Warranty. You have to look at who should replace the drive according to the makers support services. If the Maker doesn't authorize the retailer to replace things he will be stuck with a dead drive that is useless to anyone and they will increase the cost of doing business for that person which will in turn cause the prices to increase. The Shop who sells these things doesn't offer any Warranty the Maker offers the Warranty and you should contact the Maker.

But if you mean that you plan to but a new drive and the shop owner refuses to sell you one which I can not see happening you simply go to another shop to buy a HDD.

Col

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Addition Information for SMART Value and about my New HD

by melina_soemanto_putri In reply to 1

Thanks for your reply, here is some additional information and some questions about SMART except the last two/three:

I used HDTune, Speedfan and HDDScan to get SMART Results.I'm using Seagate as my HDs. One now has failed to Bad Blocks as I write in this thread and the others two (my old HD and my Brother's) maybe start failing too but I'm still unsure about this.

1a.Does "Raw Read Error Rate" and "Hardware ECC Recovered" should have same Current Value (not the RAW Value) on SMART Results?
b.When I access some folder/files, the Current Value of "Hardware ECC Recovered" lowered down. Is this normal? This doesn't happen in my Old HD.

2.Does it normal to have "Raw Read Error Rate" Current Value decrease and increasing? (explanation:
few days ago the value of my old HD is 63, yesterday it dropped into 62, after few hours it increased again into 63, few hours ago still 63 now it dropped again to 62)

3.Explanation for SMART Value on my Brother's H
a.After startup I used HDTune and Speedfan to check SMART Result the "Raw Read Error Rate" is always lower than previous (before the last shutdown) -> Example: Now: 110 (using HDTune and Speedfan) Before: 115(Using HDTune and Speedfan too).
b.Then I used HDDScan the value went up (Explanation: 110->115).
c.I used HDTune and Speedfan again, the value now 115.
Do you know what could caused this? (Edit:HDDScan also increased the Value of Hardware ECC Recovered in my Brother's HD,if it lowered down like from 115->83->115 again)

4.What does the meaning Power Cycle and High Fly Write?

5.How to make sure the cause of Bad Blocks is logical /physical? (How do I know whether The Magnetic Material is Failing or The Circuit Board degraded?)

For question 7 in previous post, I mean should the process of changing between my HD that now has Bad Blocks to the new HD in a Clean Room?

Edit:
6.Now I already change my HD to a new one, however SeaTools detected this HD as SCSI Drive even though it is SATA. I'm using Windows XP. What could caused this?

7.After I change my HD, Windows startup is slower than before (I mean before I had a Bad Blocks on my older HD). The old one is ATA,though. What could caused it?

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