IT Employment·20,064 discussions

How do you know when its time to leave?

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Is it time for a change?
Just a job change or a career change?

I?ve been programming for over 10 years (several different companies). There was a time when I loved it, now I dread coming to work. For about 6 months now I leave work each day with my jaw clenched; shoulder/neck muscles tight; stomach in a knot and spend my entire drive home trying to relax.

Sometimes I think that it is this particular work environment. My supervisor has changed, company location has changed, and there is major staff turnover. There is also no chance to keep up with new technology. However I live in a small community with very limited new opportunities.

Sometimes I think I need a complete new direction. I still have moments where I really get into the code and enjoy developing, but I wonder if both the IT industry and I have changed too much.

I?ve had personal life changes too and would actually rather work part time. Working more then 8 hours in a day feels like such punishment.

Getting a paycheck is 95% of the reason I show up for work every day. I get paid well but would rather earn less and enjoy my job.

So where does one go from here?

Topic

When a chiropractor is required…

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

…it’s time to leave. I’m a firm believer in “if you don’t like what you do, do something else.” We are no longer a society where you have to go to work at the same job for forty years. Options are available! So take some time to find out what you still like to do. It used to be “What color is my parachute” could help with that – I don’t know if that book is still around, but really sit down and say: this is what is important to me. This is what I like. This is what I can’t stand. And see what direction that takes you! Of course, it’s easier to look for another job while receiving a paycheck, so take your time. And if you end up being a sous chef after being a programmer because you decide thats what you really like – thats okay. I believe I will change careers many times before I retire!

Time to leave, but for the right reasons.

In reply to When a chiropractor is required…

It is definately time to leave! It is clear you have no enthusiasm or motivation left in this role, it seems likely that this has been the case for quite some time. Every job has it’s life cycle and 10 years was a long time and I’m sure you have learnt a lot and benefited from it in many ways, but yes move on there is nothing to be gained by staying.

Do not be scared!!!

Though your present job has sapped your will to live, a change will revitalise you. The chance to be the new staff member, the chance to enjoy new people new chalenges new surroundings everything is long overdue.

If you hang in there in your present role u will not be happy now, to go as far as to send an email like this, it is not a one off bad day, it is bordom and stagnation.

Get up make a move, you’ll wonder afterwards why you didn’t make the move 5 years earlier!!!

Good Luck, I’m confident that you will look back and be very happy that you made the move, as long as you do, and the sooner the better. (And you will probably even have fonder feelinigs for the job you left behind once you have left, though I’m sure you will never regret leaving it)

Matty

Change of Life….

In reply to Time to leave, but for the right reasons.

I am in the same position and thought of changing career to Accountancy. One day I met a friend who was in the same position as me with another company and told of a part-time Physical Therapy course. I am currently taking the course and hope to leave the IT industry behind for something different. Stress and the feelings of going nowhere in work can add years to your life……A change is as good as a rest!!!

Don’t change – Evolve

In reply to Change of Life….

Very intersting discussion and interestingly very popular (ie were are all where with you).

Any biological system, when under stress reaches a bifurication point (from Chaos thery) where it either perishes or most often, gains complexity through an evolution of purpose.

You are at this point and can choose to evolve your self through looking at this as a positive and apply your tallents to the area where you care the most – or think you can be of most use to your world.

If we could all identify when we reach this point (and take the correct path) – it would be a happier world – thanks for sharing and good luck all!

No amount of money is worth it….

In reply to Time to leave, but for the right reasons.

When you get up in the morning and “dread” going to work, you’d probably find riding on the back of a garbage truck more satisfying. As everyone has stated here, find your talents and what you like and persue them. No amount of money is payment enough for staying at a job you dread. It affects every other part of your life. I too find myself in this situation and am currently exploring other options.

Good luck…

Time to leave, but for the right reasons.

In reply to When a chiropractor is required…

It is definately time to leave! It is clear you have no enthusiasm or motivation left in this role, it seems likely that this has been the case for quite some time. Every job has it’s life cycle and 10 years was a long time and I’m sure you have learnt a lot and benefited from it in many ways, but yes move on there is nothing to be gained by staying.

Do not be scared!!!

Though your present job has sapped your will to live, a change will revitalise you. The chance to be the new staff member, the chance to enjoy new people new chalenges new surroundings everything is long overdue.

If you hang in there in your present role u will not be happy now, to go as far as to send an email like this, it is not a one off bad day, it is bordom and stagnation.

Get up make a move, you’ll wonder afterwards why you didn’t make the move 5 years earlier!!!

Good Luck, I’m confident that you will look back and be very happy that you made the move, as long as you do, and the sooner the better. (And you will probably even have fonder feelinigs for the job you left behind once you have left, though I’m sure you will never regret leaving it)

Matty

A lot of good and varied suggestions…

In reply to Time to leave, but for the right reasons.

Seems like we have a very diversified group of opinions – as well as talented and insightful folks. I say, lets form a Corp. or LLC based on our vast experience and offer him a job… 🙂

Practicality

In reply to Time to leave, but for the right reasons.

If one is bored to death I agree, it is perhaps the only option. If not, may be look for small changes and directions within the same domain. For e.g. from being a coder, one could look into getting in a systems role: design/system architect, marketing, tech analyst, tech prime.. if opportunity exists within or outside the company.

If the main reason for still coming to work is money, I would rather have something else in hand or discover/develop other stuff on hand on the side before leaping into totally unknown.

When a chiropractor is required…

In reply to When a chiropractor is required…

Hello , I read your posting with a great deal of interest.I agree with you that leaving is very important when the satisfaction goes away from doing a job.

Another angle to the issue is what we do with our free times. Sometimes most of us in the IT field burn out. We are pretty passionate about what we do. So they become our hobbies and even eat time from our private spheres.

Experience shows that if some fun hobby or a very interesting extra career undertaking is undertaken while experiencing this , the burn out will eventually go away , and the old vigour , energy and ethusiasm will find their way back.

regards

Hobby!!

In reply to When a chiropractor is required…

I am bushed !! been in this field for as little as 5 yrs and i am considering retirement already!!
I liked the hobby idea…infact i tried doing just that got me a telescope and try and see whats ‘beyond’ us!! Helps..but the nagging feeling of getting the ‘right next job’ will not go till I land up with a good job!
Thought being ones own boss is the best thing…go freelancing. Tremendous flexibility and meeting new people and seeing new cultures!!

ciao ciao
Gaurav

A long road…..

In reply to Hobby!!

I have been in the work force for 24 years ,since graduating college. I have held three different jobs – Restaurant manager – Presales technical support – database administrator/system admin. The last has been since 1989 and I have had the opportunity to work with Paradox, Oracle, SQL, Progress, Solaris, AIX, HP-unix and Linux. Recently I am so burnt out due to downsizing, 7×24 coverage, repetive project work, spam, and lack of opportunity. I find myself scanning Monster and the internet almost daily looking for a new job that is not there. Not there because I am burnt out on this one and can’t see the forest for the trees. What is most difficult is trying to retain salary while switching industries, departments, philosophy. Still I feel motivated by this article. Light at the end of the tunnel can also be seen through the eyes of others that still have motivation and excitement about their current work opportunity. I am finding that getting up and away from my desk and talking to others at work from other departments/backgrounds helps bring new insites into what I can be working towards as a new opportunity for me.

Good point! – When a Chiropracter is required

In reply to When a chiropractor is required…

I know a developer who was having a real hard time finding the will to live and programm Revelation databases at the same time. Not only was it ugly work, but long hours. Instead of quiting, he took up learning the ancient Greek language as a hobby. He found his burn out wasn’t that bad afterall and was able to continue to work.

Didn’t Calvin and Hobbes have a cartoon that recommended having a terrible hobby so you cherished your day job?

-Rob

Calvin’s Dad

In reply to Good point! – When a Chiropracter is required

?The secret to enjoying your job is to have a hobby that is even worse.? – Calvin?s Dad

There’s a world of jobs within IT. Look for a firm and a job you will like

In reply to When a chiropractor is required…

If you change fields without knowing what you want you can just go from dull to duller and make less money, too. You have experience in I.T., and I.T. is wide and pervasive. There are a million different job descriptions for a computer nerd, and each job is different in each company, and frequently differs from department to department within a company. Don’t look at the one job you’ve got and the one office you’re in and say that I.T. has lost its spark… look out in the world. Unless, of course, you’ve got secret suppressed ambitions that you’ve always wanted to fulfill, like bartending or running a store or teaching. In that case, make your plans, and go for what you want. But if you don’t know, find out.

You live in a small town? I’ve lived in five isolated small towns and in metro suburbs and in cities, and I personally say the hell with small. But if that’s the place you like, then you should probably accept commuting long distances in pursuit of money, diversity, and excitement.

Programmers can do other positions

In reply to There’s a world of jobs within IT. Look for a firm and a job you will like

Until recently I was a Tech Support guy who did programming as one of the “hats” I wore. I discovered I liked the programming part of my job the best. It took my company relocating to another state to give me the kick in the ass I needed to find another job. Now I am a programmer full-time.

You could try going the other direction. Tech Support can be rewarding with the right company, and programming skills can be helpful. They might need you to write a utility to solve a troubleshooting or conversion issue. There might also be an opportunity to travel (some might consider that a negative, but I still haven’t used up all of the frequent flyer points I’ve accumulated).

The point is – there are a lot of opportunities for people who are willing to be brave and creative when assessing their desires and skills. You might consider a 3rd party company to help you with this. There’s no reason to stay stuck in a sucky job.

What color is the “hole” in your paracute?

In reply to When a chiropractor is required…

Yes the book what color is your paracute?, 2004: A practical manual for Job Hunters & Carerr-Changes by Richard Nelson Bolles is still available. It’s a great investment of about $13.00 or so. Of course you can find this book at your local library as well.

I have never worked for the money. (Not that I don’t need the money) but I work more for personal satisfaction and what I can contribute over the pay. If it was for pay, I’d have left my current position years ago! LOL

There have been co-workers that have gotten physically ill at the idea of having to come and face another day of work. DEFINITELY time to make a change. The change doesn’t necessarily mean leaving your current employer. Maybe just mixing up the hours or duties is enough. Burn-out happens. You have to look at what is causing the burn-out, is it the task(s), environment, health? When I’ve left previous jobs, it was due to waking up too many times dreading having to go into work. For me, that’s MY que that it’s time to leave.

Good Luck to you!

P.S. I highly recommend you read What Color Is Your Parachute? It has some great (yet quick) self-quizes to help you discover (if you don’t already know) what environment in which you do like to work. For example, I enjoy working in the law enforcement environment, I like the “language” here (language used in this sense is from Bolles book).

Stay unless you can find something

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Hang in there until you find something else and learn to relax ZaZen – or some form and don’t take the job out of the office door. They don’t pay you enough, even if they did – I wouldn’t take it out of the office (health is more important than anything)

I was in programming for about the same amount of time and got out. The challegne departed – it was the same thing day in and day out. So started learning Unix/PC/Networking on my own, but didn’t make a move until I had something solid to jump to. At the same company so the pay stayed at the same level.

Sounds like you are at the FUPM – point. A little term I coined – came to the attitude that “F.U.Pay Me” was the way to come and go from the office.

You want extra this from me – FU Pay Me …
You want extra that from me – FU Pay Me …
You want extra beyond – FU Pay Me …
I will bust my hump for the 8.5 hours a day I work, beyond that – was F.U. Pay Me.

The employment contract called for 7.5 hours a day and extra only when ness – 8.5 was an extra hour every day.. they wanted more – Pay Me.

Life is to short – If you are moving up with the company then give them the extra – if they are just abusive to you – then FUPM is the word of the day.

But for you sit back – Get the FUPM attitude – learn to relax (ZaZen or Zen or some form) – You is stressed out …

thanks for the boost

In reply to Stay unless you can find something

JimHM.. you just gave me a boost to stay in my office today. I am sick and tired of my job that I was going to leave today, 5 minutes before I read your entry. THANK!!! =)))

When I feel like it or am not ecstatic about working there anymore.

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

There is no reason whatsoever that anything can or should dominate your lifestyle other than YOUR happiness. THe biggest mistake people make in life is feeling obligated to stay with an employer as it is a paycheck, it is a steady income and all that other insecure, comfort zone rubbish. “But I have bills topay, but I have a family waaaaaaaah! ”
SO what, if you are that useless that you can’t earn enough money to pay the bills without someone writing you a cheque and placing money in your account each month, you deserve any unhappiness that you have.

I am a firm believer and it was proven to me also that you do NOT have to work for someone else in orer to make do. You just need skills and or drive.

Do whatever your heart desires as you want to do it, don’t let people tell you about security and needing other work first or ny of that, just get off your butt and do it. YOu will notice that most people who say to stay put until something else is available have also been working in the sameplace most of thier lives, can you say RUT.

Some people don’t have the drive and initiative to get out on thier own, don’t listen to them, you CAN do it, you WILL do it, so just go and do it. It really isn’t hard to drum up a couple of grand a month to keep going as you setout on your own.

Good luck, don’t be scared into staying put.

OM

True – But

In reply to When I feel like it or am not ecstatic about working there anymore.

That is true Ozzie – and no one or nothing is holding yours, mine or anyones feet from walking out the door. When the “Defecation hits the rotatory oscillator”.

So rather than have him hang in until he could safely transfer between companies or jobs – you say quit now – depart –

So if he departs and can’t find a job in a few months then he could move to Canada and go on Canadian welfare – were him and his family woud get food, clothing, housing and medical care for nothing right… Cool – idea… Let someone else do all the work and others get all the gravy. I like it … send them all to Canada ..

Well

In reply to True – But

You started to have a valid point but then removed all crdibility from yourself and your post by getting into a slam on Canadian politics.

Well if he was American and came here to find work, he’d have one HELL of a hard time getting welfare, it’s not a easy as you may think.

There IS a tonne of work to be had though.

My question is, how can someone be unemployed if they want to work?

I have never met someone here who sincerely wanted to work and couldn’t.

My point is, you don’t have to be IN IT in rder to advance yourself in the world. If IT sucks, get a trade and do something else, if THAT sucks then go do something else. Why do people pigeonhole themselves by thinking they have one choice once they’ve been to school and got some certs? I’ve been successful in sales, management, training, automotive, machining, welding (big coin!), several personal businesses etc. I do what I feel like doing, not what I feel I have no choice but to do. It is something I learned from my father who was certified in MANY trades and had a successful sales career ran a great business and many other things, he did what his thoughts lead him to do when he wanted to do something. I see so many people nowdays that will stick somewhere thay HATE for lack of being motivated enough to change thier own destiny. Whatever happened to being in a capitalist country that allows you the freedom to succeed at what YOU choose to do, I can in Canada? Are you changing your spots again Jim?

Its that simple in the US

In reply to Well

True again – He can as I have done (after being laid off) a WallMart Employee (if they have them in Canada) – a Paramedic – and a Wheelchair Van Driver at the same time. To put food, roof and clothing on the family. Wasn’t easy – wasn’t fun – 60 to 90 hour weeks… no time for anything but work – didn’t kill me – did make me stronger –

All I am saying is – that if its that bad he could depart today, but better have something to fall back on finanically speaking – or he will be on Welfare living off someone elses paycheck (Mine if in the USA)..

So why not stay – until he finds something to jump to, or finishes retraining and jumps. (maybe the company even has an education refund program)

There are jobs out there if someone wants to work (thats whats so bad about welfare – there are jobs if someone wants one)- they’re not highest paid – no real benefits – but there are jobs.

It’s a matter of choice – its not just toss in the towel and up and quite – and figure something out for the family later.

In the US – Illegal’s can get welfare (A Canadian can get it) – food stamps – so its that simple – I am sure Canada’s has to be somewhat that simple as well.

Working/Welfare/Employment Insurance

In reply to Its that simple in the US

Not as simple as you might think.

I was laid off in 2002, with a fairly hefty severance.

I tried hard to get a lower level position, but as I had been a manager, no one wanted to hire me to do a lesser job – they didn’t think I’d fit, or if the economy picked up that I would stay. I lived off my severance. I did investigate other options – I applied to work at a place than needed someone to do simple desktop publishing(did complex DTP in the 80s), looked at forklift training etc.

The market was very bad. Some of the best managers I’d ever worked with were laid off from places like Nortel.

I did eventually get some contract work as a business analyst. I only collected a few weeks unemployment before I finally landed a permanent job. I make less, and work just as hard, but I am more grateful to be working.

EI is actually somewhat useless in Canada, the caps are really low(could cover my mortgage, and my mortgage is actually very low, lower than most rents). There are tight time limits. All of this despite the fact that we all contribute to EI in the form of a payroll tax and there is a huge surplus which the government has seen fit to use for other things.

I’ve never collected welfare, but I know that you can be kicked off welfare, and although refugees can collect, there are all kinds of conditions. If you are in a major centre, welfare will only be enough for the most basic existance. Welfare rules are provincial, so it changes from province to province.

Luckily I found something before my savings were totally depleted.

James

Canadian EH

In reply to True – But

Hey, I am in Canada, and guess whast, it is not filled with people on welfare, but with hard working people who have the same career issues..
I say, when your health and well-being starts to suffer, start looking.
I agree you should not quit until you do, regardless of the apparent glamour of just walking away and, having a FU Pay Me attitude, we are ultimately still responsible for families, and other commitments and should be aware of these.
There is a lot of work out there, you need to be confident enough to start finding it…..and regain your pleasure in life.

Watch out-You may get what you wish for…

In reply to When I feel like it or am not ecstatic about working there anymore.

I was at a job where I was over-worked, underpaid and under appreciated. I left for another job, with a hugh pay hike, but no longer doing the system stuff that I been earning my keep with for 20 years. And now, for the first time in my woeking life, I am MISERABLE.

So now, I force myself to go to work, I continuously complain and have alienated friends and family. Now, if I leave this area, I can have a new job tomorrow, but there are better reasons (than a job) to stay.

The solution? I am looking for something more like my old job and I will take my time and be fussy about. I am also taking classes and do free-lancing jobs to keep my resume fresh and truthful. It’s only a matter of time.

Yes but. . . .

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

You might simply have reached the point in your life where you’re not interested in sloughing around in the details any more. Perhaps you’ve matured and you want to look at the big picture and make a difference at that level.

I was a hands-on coder for about ten years and I just got tired of it. But I still liked IT and I got into management, then staff work and training. I was responsible for some major changes at the place I worked, such as implementing data security and teaching people how relational databases work. I was even the guy who started screaming about Y2K in 1988 so that the place (one of the world’s largest IT shops) was completely remediated by 1998 without consultants, overtime, or triage!

As an analogy, forty years ago I really enjoyed taking carburetors apart and making them work better. Now I just want a car that does what it is supposed to do so I can concentrate on making the whole world work better.

IT is a great field, and it’s taking over the world. It’s hard to imagine that there isn’t some major, important, exciting, challenging part of it that doesn’t suit you. After all, wherever you go and whatever you do, you’ll still have to be an IT expert to keep your blasted workstation running, unless you wind up in an ad agency or one of the other rare Mac shops.

It’s very likely, especially from what you’ve said, that the place you work is bothering you more than the work itself. This could be true even if your heart really isn’t in IT any more. You can get a job in another profession and still end up at a company that drives you nuts.

The encouragement you’re getting from these other people to “follow your bliss” is good. But it’s also good to hear from people who have tried it. It doesn’t always work out. I’ve spent the last ten years regretting the fact that I walked away from a job that drove me nuts.

I had no idea what “nuts” is. There’s abject I-can’t-pay-the-mortgage-again poverty. There’s having to live in a region so strange that you think you’ve been exiled to the Klingon homeworld. There’s just getting to like a job and being laid off — two or three times in a row. There’s being discriminated against for something that people at the old place never even thought about. There’s living with weather that makes you feel sick and slimy all the time. There’s having to travel constantly in the Homeland Security Era.

The grass is not always greener. And sometimes what you’ve got is really the best there is.

If you get home from work feeling that amazingly bad, I wouldn’t be surprised if there is more than one thing bothering you. Perhaps you should try to identify some additional stressors in your life and put them all in perspective, then work on the one(s) that offer the greatest potential for overall improvement. It might turn out that something else is bothering you more than the job, but you have a mental or emotional block about dealing with it. Family, love life, religion, friendships. Heck, some people are really bummed out over the state of the world today, can you believe that.

I’ll close with my standard advice. If you don’t have a dog, get one. If you do, spend more time with him/her. There’s nothing on earth that can improve your life as much and as easily as a dog. There’s a reason that humans began living with dogs before they even learned to live with other tribes of humans!

New environment

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Have you considered working for a Non for Profit organization. There are many opportunities even in a small community and the work is more rewarding.

Interesting …

In reply to New environment

A Non Profit … that caught my attention.

EVERY type of business has issues, but maybe it would be different enough.

Are you speaking from experience?

How does one search for a job in the Non Profit sector?

The non-profit world….

In reply to Interesting …

Just adding my 2 cents – if you are looking for something that will motivate you and you can take the pay cut (the non-profits I have worked in will pay less than corporate, but occasionally have good benefits such as educational reimbursement) then working to better the world is a very motivating thing – if it is a cause you believe in. Generally, the other people there are motivated by the same cause, which makes it nice. The way to look for a job there is find the ones in your area that would interest you, and either look on their website or call them. If you want to check out the atmosphere before employment, consider volunteering your services for a project, which will give you a feel for the people and the work environment – and if they like you too, an in if you decide to apply for a job. Generally, if you call them and say “I have experience in XYZ and was wondering if I could assist with a project you may have – can I send my CV” they will be too happy to review and put you to work. Non-profits by their nature depend on donations for upgrade in technology, and I have found they are constantly upgrading or rolling out new (to them) stuff – although it isn’t cutting edge… hope this helps. Good luck.

If you get a kick out of helping people

In reply to Interesting …

I was in your situation 2 years ago and joined a publicly-funded project to help SMEs (small businesses) to grow by providing them with support based on my experience. The job pays only about 70% of what I used to earn but virtually every day is FUN. The SMEs treat me as their guru for all sorts of problems and include me in their planning for new opportunities. It’s like having all the satisfatcion of running your own small business but with very few of the risks. I can thoroughly recommend it.
Peter

I work with non-profits.

In reply to Interesting …

In my experience the downsides:

Less Money
Understaffed
Old equipment
Way low budgets
Lack of Money for education of IT staff
Will put you behind in skill level for competative corporate jobs if you want to go back unless you take it onyourself to keep up without new equipment to work on.

The upsides:

More Freedom\Flexibility
Family Friendly
Generally positive people who want to change the world for the better. Idealism is encouraged.
Lots of new free major vendor software opportunities.
You get to be very creative.
Time is usually given easily for education.
Lower IT expectations\Less pressure.
Hakuna Matata -No Worries- It’s All Good 🙂

Hope that helps. For some people it’s awesome doing IT for non-profits, for some it’s a nightmare. I’ve been in it 15 years now, and although I have my days, overall it leaves me feeling good about what I do. Now if only I could afford a new roof ~LoL~ ….but then I do get to play baseball with my kid every day… 🙂

Expect very much lower pay –

In reply to New environment

I am assuming that when you speak of Non-Profit you are speaking of Charaties? Like the American Red Cross – The Catholic Church – not a Non-Profit corporation say like a Hospital or Colleges.

Charaties are normally very low pay. If you are talking about Non-Profit corporations then get a job at a College and get free education for you and your family. Which is a great benefit (depending on how many kids you have). Expect 15% to 35% below market scale.

I worked for a non-profit corporation and the environment wasnt any different than when I worked for profit corporations. It all was driven by business and to make money. Only difference – for profit make money for the stock holders = keep job.

True.

In reply to Expect very much lower pay –

I have seen these. To work for a surplus driven non-profit (In a non-profit they just call profit “surplus”)it will usually be a little less money and they will treat you as bad or worse than any corporation. 15% to 35% below is a good figure here. The places not money driven (Like the one I work at) are generally going to pay more like 50% or more below. We start people between $7.00 to $9.50 an hour. We do have good health benefits and have an on site day care etc. A Network Admin might start at $10.00 an hour. IT Director maybe $14.00- $15.00. Most people here will laugh at this, but we find people. Skilled people who are single parents and want to be with their kids, or want to white water raft a lot or ski all winter etc. Some people have money and want to work just to do it- some don’t have much but have different priorities in life like being with family a lot. It’s a whole different way of life though.

Make sure it is the right one

In reply to New environment

I work at a Small Community Non-Profit organization and have gained several new experiences. Just make sure the nonprofit that you?re working for, is suitable for you and makes you happy. You don?t want to go to an organization which is the same as your previous job.

time to take a good look at you

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

How terrible it must be for you. I couldn’t even imagine. If it’s really that bad, you need to re-evaluate and move on. Money is not the means to life. I’d rather be broke & unemployed than suffer the way you are.

Move on my friend…….

“Broke and unemployed” really sucks

In reply to time to take a good look at you

I doubt that you’ve ever actually been “broke and unemployed” for a long spell. You almost never hear that statement from someone who’s had the experience.

It’s Maslow’s Hierarchy. If you have a job that’s driving you crazy, you’re somewhere up on Step Four or Five, fretting over self-actualization. When you have no job and no money, you’re down on Step One: survival.

Unless your job puts you in physical or medical danger, or involves the perpetration of evil deeds, any job is better than no job, by definition. No one who is not mentally ill dies of starvation in America, but living on the street, even with a full belly in a mild climate, will come pretty close to killing you and actually does so in many cases.

As for all the people suggesting that you just start at the bottom in another career, that’s fine if you’re 25. If you’re 55, like a huge segment of America’s “downsized” workers, you’ve got a mortgage, a kid or two still in college, and only fifteen years left to accumulate enough capital to retire. An entry level job will not salvage your life.

And for the gung-ho contingent who maintains that every single one of us has what it takes to go out and become self-employed? As Denis Leary would say, I’ve got two words for you. And the first one is “bull.”

That is not just an epithet, but a rejoinder. It takes a lot of “bull” to be a good salesman, it takes a good salesman to sell himself, and you have to be able to sell yourself if you expect to make it in the world of the self-employed.

Many of us have spent our whole lives striving to rid ourselves of “bull” so that we can live up to our own standards and be someone we’d like to know. The personality required to be self-employed has many traits that we despise.

Yes it does

In reply to “Broke and unemployed” really sucks

“Broke and unemployed” really does suck! I have been there and remember it all too well. That is another reason why I haven’t left yet.

try this

In reply to Yes it does

There is a book you really ought to read! It’s called, aplty enough, “What Should I Do With My Life?” by Po Bronson. I have been struggling with the big question lately myself and just finished the book. It’s not an answer to your questions, but should cause you to start asking the right questions. I’ve been in my job for 6 years as a pc tech, telephone systems tech, cable runner, fiber installer, router setter-upper and been passed up for a network admin job twice now, which made me sort of depressed and coming to work here everyday feels like torture. I figured out what I really wanted out of life and I start my Le Cordon Bleu program (culinary arts) in a few weeks. I’ll be able to do this at night for 1 year and still keep a roof over my head. Just making the decision made it a little easier to come to work again, I feel like a weight has been lifted off of me and things are back in the proper perspective. Good luck to you! I hope you find what you’re looking for!

keep your job AND try new stuff too

In reply to Yes it does

Since you seemed interested in the not-for-profit idea above, can you ask your current employer to cut your time to, perhaps, 3/4? Then you could teach at a community college or work with Habitat or a group interested in the things you like for the other time and find out if that would help your attitude.
And sometimes just not having to be there the entire time will, of itself, help an attitude.
Good luck

not so

In reply to “Broke and unemployed” really sucks

Don’t throw all self-employed people into the same basket. I worked in sales for 7 years and didn’t have to “bull___” anyone. There is a balance between logical thinking, security, getting a J.O.B. and being self employed, “freedom”, “your own boss”. What I suggest is taking an entrepreneur course through your local chamber of commerce or SCORE group and seeing the real picture before you jump in with both feet. I am looking at leaving my present position because I have been here 5 years and am burnt out, have nowhere to move up and hate all the hipocrisy. The fact that all this bothers me makes me feel like I may not be suited to work for someone else all my life. I have people who work with me who are happy as a clam coming in , putting in their 8 hours and going home….day after day….week after week….month after month..etc….etc…. I have seen these type of people in every job i’ve been in. The people who long for more are the one’s that should at least look into self-employment BUT go into it with both eye’s wide open.

Hobbies? Interests?

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Step back, and take a look at yourself.

What else are you interested in? Describe your dream job. Try and leverage existing skills to your long term benefit. Take into account your overall situation: finances, dependants, other interests, external resources, location, etc. You may be able to come up with an idea that interests you more, leverages some of your existing skills, allows you to be more interested in your work day, and get more out of it.

Thinking outside the box is such a cliche, but it’s disturbingly true.

Do you have leave oweing at your job? Can you take a break to get some distance and take a longer view?

My thoughts exactly!

In reply to Hobbies? Interests?

Well done! It’s about time someone said that you can control your own destiny, we aren’t inIraq, we can be whatever we want to.

At 35, I could STILL study law or medicine and become a lawayer or doctor for many years beore I choose to retire.

My brothers law firm hired aguy who was a phenominla corporate attorney, when in his office one day, I asked who was in the photos on his wall and he said it was him.

Well he had lONG hair, jeans and a t-shirt on, while standing on a mssive piece of forestry machinery. He was an aard winning lumberjack for 20 years before getting sick of it and going to university to stuy law.

I see too many people getting stuck into thier jobs to the point that the comfort zone is too hard to leave.

How many people do you know who will say that being fired from thier former job was the best thing to ever happen to them as it gave them opportunity to turn thier lives around? Almost everyone I know can relate and agree to that one.

Taking a Break

In reply to Hobbies? Interests?

Has anyone actually survived a leave of absence? I don?t think 1 or 2 weeks off on vacation is sufficient.

I mean, has the job still been there and were you treated the same?

Has anyone actually been granted a leave of absence for reasons other than maternity?

Vacation Q

In reply to Taking a Break

Yes, I have gone on vacation to find my job was still around, if thats what you mean. Its tougher if you are a contracter/consultant (independent or otherwise) though.

Take a leave of absense and tell them you had a family emergency (someone passed away, etc) or something (techincally it is, you need to reevaluate your future with the family). Plus combine that a with a few sick days and you can have a week+ evaluation time. Make the best use of it.

leave of absence

In reply to Taking a Break

I almost survived a leave of absence due to serious illness. Once recovered, I returned slowly to full day. I was not trusted completely for about 3 years – I guess they expected me to fall ill again and couldn’t accept a complete recovery. I eventually transferred to another area, but that didn’t help, so I went to another company.

Depends on Company

In reply to Taking a Break

Leave of absense policies really depend on the company.

A little after I started my current job, a web designer in the company took 4 months off to bicycle across the U.S. then came back. He ended up leaving about 1 year after that to start an ostrich farm.

Our company is pretty flexible and fairly family friendly though.

I have another friend who took a year off from his govt engineering job to become an actor. He will not be able to return to his old job if he bombs though.

See if HR has a policy or talk to someone in senior management that you have a repoir with.

Agreed

In reply to Hobbies? Interests?

I was thinking something very similar. There was a time you enjoyed programming. If you could develope a side project doing something you really love, be that programming or something else. You may find that you can make a buck doing something you love to do anyways. I’ve known a couple people that have launched businesses this way.

Good luck,
Mike

Same boat bud

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I was in a similar situation for the last year an half. IT (especially support and programming) have changed, in NYC area anyways. Everytime I see a support postion they want you to know 10 programs (which isn’t a problem learning those programs, but…with 5 years exp, sheesh), plus scripting, work is fast paced and under pressure, and pay sucked. IT field is stablizing and frankly some positions are just eliminated (with XP being rolled out and being so stable, who needs 5 techs to manage the infrastructure).

I left IT although still in technology mind you. How about you take a break (when is the next vacation?? lol) and evaluate the job market, get on the message boards (monster.com has an excellent message board), explore your education/reducation options, etc.

I am currently thinking of completely switching into a Sales field, cause frankly I enjoyed Customer service, solving issues and providing outstanding service, more so then just learning about new technologies. Technical sales??

Good luck in whatever you end up doing.

Hmmmmmmmmmm

In reply to Same boat bud

Having read most of the letters, The following comes to mind..

Yes We have Walmarts,…We also have Toliets,,that flush…

Yes traveling in the US Homeland Security is tiresome. You built it…Live with it…

Broke and Unemployed really sucks…..and at -40 degrees nobody hangs out at the coner…

I like my work but maybe not my job or the place I am at. It would be nice to work somewhere..for once…that a company from another universe isn’t going to buy it up and then not understand how to do work on that worlds rules….Try getting a global agreement between Dell, Mexico,,Canada,,,US and England……BABY IT JUST DOESN’T HAPPEN….

I would like to change and most likely will. But I have to admit that going back to school AGAIN at 46 is a little un-nerving….hmmmmmm that would make it 5 major career changes.

Sorry..no real answers to lifes real questions…Hey if you have the resources,,take up glass blowing. Its fun and you can sell paper wieghts for $13.

O yes after a 6 mth leave of absense for BURN OUT STRESS my partner in crime did notice a little odd behaviour from IBM. but in a couple of months it washed off like a cheap tatto.

Self Pride is a big thing.
*****I AM CANADIAN *******

P.S. Not everyone has to own a Harley,,,Other bikes are nice tooo.

homelink247net.eFreedomSuccess.net

In reply to Same boat bud

IT pros can rock the world with a timely opportunity. If you like working on your computer from home or where ever, training folks to be healthy wealthy and wise by being selfemployed as a team member with an Inc 500 company in todays dwindling and changing job market? Please contact me at http://www.homelink247@msn.com for further information. Type, Get Goji, in the email subject line. I will provide you with pertinent hotlinks, and toll free phone numbers. You will be very pleasantly surprised with a international opprtunity with proprietary license… etc…

homelink247net.eFreedomSuccess.net

In reply to Same boat bud

IT pros can rock your world with a timely opportunity. If you like working on your computer from home or where ever, training folks to be healthy wealthy and wise by being a representative team member with a 9 year old American, debt free Inc 500 company in todays shifting global economy? Please contact me pesonally at http://www.homelink247@msn.com for further information. Type, Get Goji, in the email subject line. I will provide you with pertinent hotlinks, and toll free phone numbers. You will be very pleasantly surprised with a international opportunity with a proprietary unique product. If you are a people person and enjoy helping others succeed in a unique IT field enterprise. Enjoy earning a good income, and all that comes with it including flextime working conditions and the ability to make a livelihood for yourself, by espousing to the concept of “work is only work, if you would rather be doing something else. I want you on our team. Of course you’ll have time and money to pursue your personal interests if you are a successful candidate, and are willing to follow an automated proven plan, applied to a new internationaly introduced product with a legedary history. Only now available through a scientifically developed proprietary technology, to facilitate quality and distribution. Our colleagues are internationally well know professionals in there fields. I believe forum policy prohibits disclosure? This information is available by request only. Available to residents of U.S.A., our homebase, and US territories of Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Guam, etc. International expansion continues, countries of Canada, Mexico, Australia, Dominican Republic, Singapore, Hong Kong, Asia the Pacific Rim, and the EU., tentativeliy within a year of its introduction on 10/10/04.
Join us in taking this gift of an ancient people to the entire world. The Machine Is In Motion. Be Well and Live Well.

Advice from George Tirebiter

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Take off your shoes, climb up into a tree and learn how to play the flute.

We ARE all bozos on this bus

In reply to Advice from George Tirebiter

Excellent advice there, Mudhead!

George Tirebiter!

In reply to Advice from George Tirebiter

George,

You old dog you, how have you been? It has been years since I had heard of you! And you movies are no longer on TV, not fair. I loved “High School Madness” so very much. Any chance it will be back on the air soon?

A fan,
Rick

Hey Tirebiter

In reply to Advice from George Tirebiter

Were you by chance in Baumholder, Germany in the early 70’s? If so, let’s talk.

The grass isn’t always greener…

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

You need to have a good long think about this. Like you said, you live in a small community, so odds are, if you leave your current job, getting it back might be tough and you don’t want to be stuck without a job at all!
I think everyone in IT goes through this at some stage. If you want a change, you really need to think it through and discuss it with your family because they’ll be affected as well.
I think there probably is a limit to the amount of time a person should spend in IT, its too stressfull and is often detrimental to family and social life!
You should follow your heart but make sure you have a backout plan! Good luck….

Here’s an idea

In reply to The grass isn’t always greener…

I work in a construction company that is big enough to have a decent computer infrastructure, but not one big enough to support a full time admin. As such, I split my time between construction management duties and IT duties.

It’s a nice mix because I’ll have 3 straight days of database programming followed by a road trip to one of my work sites. I can enjoy the IT work and then get a break from it too.

Try and find something like that.

Take back your power.

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Dear friend,It sounds to me like you are working for the wrong reasons. Use a bit of lateral thinking here. Work for pleasure and fullfillment not money. The money follows not leads. Look at work as everything you do in life, and is everything you do fullfilling you. Get out of that narrow attitude we often have of working for money only. If fullfillment does not fall into your lap, make your job more interesting, take courses for the future and use your creative abilities to change things and be involved in more. Take back the power that you have given to your employer. Yes it seems like you are directionless, but dont fall into the trap of blaming the world around you. You and only you are responsible for your life and your attitude to it. Go well, mail me but start changing your attitude. Not the sort of answer you expected eh!

Do the things which you didn’t want to do..

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

If similar kind of things continue in life and you are energatic then you start feeling stuck.
It is not only with job but for any thing in life.
And due this we also stop exploring ourself. Try to do those things which are always blocks in you.

1. Speak to the person to whome you hate most.
2. Speak to the person who hate you most.
3. If you are not good artist then try make a copy of good painting.
4. If you can’t sing well ..just close the door and try to sing yours song in full volume. And then sing the song in front of yours friend and family and let them laugh upon you.

These things can help you to get out you from yours mind circle. And these thing easy to do…but try and find is it really easy.

Only you can answer that

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

What you describe has affected me, off and on, all my IT career – spanning 31 years. All that changes is that the burn-outs get more and more severe and more and more frequent. Leaving full-time employment and working for one’s self is a partial but only temporary cure. As for getting left behind by changing technology, that seems to be inevitable. But don’t worry, there are still plenty of vacancies for Cobol programmers, even today! You are probably not as “old in the tooth” as that, so don’t despair. Eventually a career change might be necessary; I am still trying to come to terms with that, having done it twice in my lifetime already.

don’t fear change

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Leave the job if you frequently catch yourself daydreaming about another job or activity and not the one you have or currently in.

I’ve been in the IT industry working as a network administrator for six long years. After a year long bout with boredom and stress, I decided to leave. I felt trapped in a box. Five months of being unemployed made me realize what the real problem was – it wasn’t the job that bored me, it was responsibility and the level of confidence that discouraged me. Now, I’m employed in a new company doing the same job, however, the trust and confidence I’m enjoying now is very different from that of my former company.

This might not help you but I hope I was able to lighten the load a bit. Goodluck!

IT Industry

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Dear all,
I think it is the case of getting burnout early as in IT industry you sit at one Place and do similar type of jobs.In marketing you have the freedom to move around and getting a chance to meet new and new people with each having different tastes,temramentsand egos.You learn a lot from them.

Time to leave

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

It’s time to leave when you work for a family business (125 employees) and you are not family. When times are tough you are at the bottom of the list. When the board of directors gather you and tell you what you have to give up but make no mention of their sacrifices. Hours are cut, wages are frozen(3 years), overtime cancelled, 401 stopped, benefits slashed and attrition is welcomed. High skill levels and inventive ideas leading to significant advances in productivity go unanswered or recognized. Sound familiar???, I left with no regrets. Did I do right???

Joem

Time To Leave

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I have been at the same job programming for approximately 6 years and I have reached that point on a couple of occasions. I have even seen other programmers leave for the greener grass and more money only to find themselves even more unhappy with their position.

I find that by working at my hobby on my days off and attending IT classes at a local community college I have improved my outlook on life greatly. I have even started planning to take classes in other disciplines as well to enhance my marketability should I decide to leave.

Time for change…

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I have been in the IT industry since 1981 and have been in this position many times. I can recall twice in my career that I came very close to leaving the IT industry behind completely. Serendipity kicked in just in time, and I am still here. I do know how you feel, and I think it is important to weigh your options, your obligations and your needs carefully. If you have family then you have to take their thoughts into account. If you are unhappy where you are then that can have an effect on your mood and even your health. Also, staying in a position that you don’t like can damage your professional reputation. Your employer may not be forthcoming with a positive reference if you are disgruntled and moody. It may be best not to wait too long to make a move. I have always found transition to be a little scary at times, but I have always had a great feeling of weight being lifted from my shoulders when I have left a position that was dragging me down. That, and a positive outlook, can get you through the tough times until a new position comes your way. Cheers, and good luck.

Great thinking

In reply to Time for change…

How slow we are to realize. Should be our first thought.

Heck

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Your 5% ahead of me. A paycheck is 100% of the reason I come to work. Is it time for me to leave?

I here ya!

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I totally got what you say. I was in the same boat about 7 years back.

I was in the military and doing desktop support and although it was supposed to be glamourous it had lost its shine.

All my bosses were idiots that played golf better than I or lived closer to the boss and had BBQ’s with him.

I moved to Ottawa with the hope that a change would do me good and it did for about 6 months and then back to the same rut.

I am telling you this basically to tell you that moving to another job or town is not the answer although it may help for a while it won’t fix it.

there is a book that was researched for about 30 years into just exactly why things like this happen and how to stop them from happening and how to re-kindle the interest you had when you first started.

With all honesty it helped me and now i am the supervisor of my area and i am happy with the job i do. I come to work with a smile instead of having trouble waking up. I too was at the point of i would make less money to get a job that would fulfill what i was missing but now i make more and really like what i do.

The book is Dianetics, which means through thought or thru the mind (derived from latin) and after reading things started to change for the better.

I hope you can benifit from this also.

Your friend
Scott
Ottawa, Canada

DianEtics

In reply to I here ya!

Scott

Sounds like this will be a good read. What’s the name of the author?

Dianetics

In reply to DianEtics

The authors name is L. Ron Hubbard and it can be found in any Chapters or Indigo book store.

Let me know how you like it…

and if you have any questions i amy be able to help… I have read the book 3 times.

Scott

Excellent Book !

In reply to Dianetics

I was fortunate enough to stumble onto this book when I was only 20… It made a great deal of sense and helped me to know enough about myself to know what I really want to be doing and what is really significant (as opposed to worrying about ‘workplace politics’ etc.).
I’ve been laid off several times (anyone remember when Mortgage rates were 25%, laid off from Bank’s Mortgage Staff, I was supporting BAL Assembler applications at the time). Generally I was working elsewhere within a week, taking the layoff as an opportunity (and presenting it honestly to propective employers as ‘bad news – good news’, bad: just laid off, good: I can start today or tomorrow).
The principles in this book can be applied to minimize ‘thoughtless reaction’ which most often leads to regret later anyway…
A great book – should be required reading in High School (9th-10th grade ?).

Dianetics

In reply to DianEtics

Did you find the book?

If so what did you think?

Scott

WARNING!

In reply to I here ya!

Dianetics was written by L. Ron Hubbard, who founded Scientology. It considered by many to be a very dangerous cult that has ruined many lives. Go check out http://www.xenu.net for information.

When it stops being fun!

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

When it stops being fun…for what ever reason….its time to go….BUT….just dont leave on the spur of the moment….stay till you find a better situation…use the time to find something better suited to how you feel about yourself or your life. Sometimes its just a better mix of work/family that will make you happy. I know…Ive been there and never regretted leaving a position I was unhappy at, even if it meant less $$.

Time to leave you say …

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I’ve been in the business for the past 15 years. Came in bright eyed and full of ambitious, will go places, blablabla.

Groom for this, groom for that, do long hours, get noticed. Get involved in office politics. Got abused and exploited plenty, thank you.

Gradually with time, I have understood that this job – any job – is a means to living (finances) my real life which is NOT in the office. It took me almost 10 years to get that.

Most of live’s gratification, self-worth is to be gotten elsewhere than at work *unless it is your company – and you run the show*.

So, you want me to do more and longer hours than what I am paid for then *FU pay me* I say smilingly/calmly 🙂

Emotional detachment from the work environment is key. Taking at least 3 weeks of holidays will help too.

My 2 cents.
Lyn

Spot on

In reply to Time to leave you say …

How true.

My advice is never take any reminder of work beyond the office door after hours. You’ll be the healthier for it.

Do some Research

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Changing jobs is hard work – especially for someone who has been with a single employer for a long period of time. I found myself in a similar situation a while back and decided I needed to do something about it. Here’s the plan:

Take charge of your career ? it is your responsibility to create opportunities for growth. DEcide where you want to be and then come up with a plan to get there.

Revitalize and expand your network. Track down coworkers who have left your company. Join local networking groups, become more active in organizations and be a useful resource to those you network with.

Update your resume and find a recruiter in your field who will critique it. Stay in frequent touch with 2-3 different recruiters you are comfortable with. They will appreciate any leads you could provide to them as well (your previous coworkers for instance).

Remember you are responsible for keeping up to date on the tools of the trade ? not your company – take some classes or buy a book and use the tools so that you will feel comfortable enough to list it as a skill on your resume. Also do some moonlighting with newly acquired skills ?pro bono work usually provides a good reference.

As it has turned out ? I am still at my job but I feel better knowing that I have some options and now I get the occasional call from a recruiter ? I haven?t changed jobs but it is good to know there are alternatives.

Figure out what you enjoy

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

After leaving the service, I took a job as an engineer in a large manufacturing facilty handling day to day operation of 9 production lines. Three months later I was so miserable that I hated Sundays because all I could think about was that I had to go to work the next day. Not to mention that I was a new father.
I spent the next three months doing research and “soul search” to figure out what I wanted to do. Then another 6 months developing the skill to swap careers and secure a new position.
Two jobs later, I’ve happily been a net admin/sys admin/it manager for nearly 5 years. I still rely on the skills I learned as a military officer and as and engineer. As the “IT guy” at a small manufacturer now, I not only handle the computer systems, I get to get my hands dirty troubleshooting and repairing various equipment on the shop floor. My diversity of experience was a great plus in securing my current position and in maintaining my value and reputation to the company.
Don’t forget your current skills and experience in looking for something new take your time to figure out what would be best for you and realize that it may take some time to position yourself for a new career.

Re: How do you know when its time to leave?

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Presidio,

This can be a tough decision to make, especially when you see limited choices available to you. However, I believe there are more choices than what you may see yourself.

Have you considered a personal coach? Someone who might assist you in finding new possibilities in what is available to you? A personal coach does not bring a ‘fix’ to the table, but new insights and a different set of personal experiences and perspectives that can make all the difference in what is available to you.

If you are interested in pursuing the idea of a personal coach, I am willing to share my experience with you. Email me, we’ll “talk” about it. Then you can decide if this is something useful for you.

Rick

The answer is more internal than external

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I went through a period that sounds like where you are now. I also realized there were good aspects to my job, that it was really a decent job as they go. What did the most good was realizing my purpose. I prayed for options, and none came, so I decided that I was where God wanted me for now. So I determined to make God proud, to do good work and even take on some junk assignments when needed. As a result, I gradually received praise and perks at work, and inside I felt better about myself, which translated into a better view of my job as well.
See, without God all this is meaningless anyway. With Him, if I decide I am really working for Him and not the company, none of this is wasted. He can move me elsewhere if He wants to open a door. In the meantime, there is lots I can do here.
You may find peripheral things that help both your work and your interests that you can add to your day, such as learning a parallel skill — more about the programming language(s) you currently use, or other languages or techniques. Intermix yourself and your interests with your work, and try to make everyone the winner. But check everyday with Jesus to see what you can do for Him today — you may find you are actually the winner after awhile.

Do some Research

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Changing jobs is hard work – especially for someone who has been with a single employer for a long period of time. I found myself in a similar situation a while back and decided I needed to do something about it. Here’s the plan:

Take charge of your career ? it is your responsibility to create opportunities for growth. DEcide where you want to be and then come up with a plan to get there.

Revitalize and expand your network. Track down coworkers who have left your company. Join local networking groups, become more active in organizations and be a useful resource to those you network with.

Update your resume and find a recruiter in your field who will critique it. Stay in frequent touch with 2-3 different recruiters you are comfortable with. They will appreciate any leads you could provide to them as well (your previous coworkers for instance).

Remember you are responsible for keeping up to date on the tools of the trade ? not your company – take some classes or buy a book and use the tools so that you will feel comfortable enough to list it as a skill on your resume. Also do some moonlighting with newly acquired skills ?pro bono work usually provides a good reference.

As it has turned out ? I am still at my job but I feel better knowing that I have some options and now I get the occasional call from a recruiter ? I haven?t changed jobs but it is good to know there are alternatives.

It depends

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

There are several factors involved in the decision. First of all, this isn’t 1999 any more. Back then IT people were treated nicely by employers, who were taught by the market to value people who created the engines of commerce in the new economy. Those were heady times for IT. Now we have to get along in a heavily managed world that demands demonstrable ROI and other management controls.

These have been implemented with varying degrees of draconian measures, and of course a lot depends on the personality of your manager. Really it’s not the position that you leave or stay with — it’s the overarching culture of your workplace and in particular the manager or management chain you work for.

If you are in a place with clueless managers who accept scope creep on projects and especially who deal with others, including you, in a graceless, tactless fashion that switches to the language of ultimatum and confrontation without cause, then you probably need to make a change. If your manager is manifestly incompetent, you may be able to out last him or her, but you’ll have to make a judgement call on whether the clue train stops at the offices higher up. If the upper middle management is also incompetent or unwilling to confront your supervisor’s bad behavior, then there is an entrenched and intractable cultural problem you will do well to do without. If going over your supervisor’s head risks reprisal for you, that’s a big warning flag. You don’t have to work for a strutting machiavelli in a starched shirt. This is true whether it is at the level of your immediate supervisor or someone else up the chain.

When people leave for reasons other than a relocation or a better opportunity, the dynamic involved is not leaving a position, but leaving a supervisor, a management team that fails to value its people, or a business culture that is unreasonable.

Even so, if you decide to go, you need to have one of the following:
1. Enough cash to tide you over while you look for a new gig, or
2. A new gig lined up already, or
3. A level of comfort that you’ll be able to find a new gig or enough contract work to get you by.
4. Enough frustration that you feel you need to leave in order to preserve your sanity and relationships with your family.

It is best to try to approach the decision as cerebrally as possible. Sure, there’s a visceral element, but you will have to list your feelings among the reasons you examine with a cool head. Try to be an observer rather than a participant.

Finally, if you do decide to pull the plug, don’t slam the door on your way out. Be gracious — submit a written two week notice, thank the company for the opportunities you’ve had and that you will always value the experience you’ve garnered working for this firm. That’s a true statement no matter how you feel about them.

Hope this helps.

Every 2 Years

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

The last time I changed jobs, I took a good hard look at what I liked to do and what I was able to do, and I came to the conclusion that I should limit myself to 2 years at any one particular position. I figured that it takes me 6 months to learn the job, six more to get really good at it, six months to thrive and excell at it, and six months to train my successor.

I am the type of person who can learn a new program/program language/skillset rather quickly (as are most of us techies) and I get bored/bitter/stressed (pick one) after a period of time any longer than that.

It seems to be true. I have been at the same job for 3 years and feel like I’m just spinning my wheels. But, I am starting on my master’s degree in the fall, so maybe I will put up with it until something better comes along….

Familarity

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Man does this sound familiar!!

I’ve read all the replies to this point and would like to comment on them as I add my two cents.

Brief history first. I’ve been a FoxPro programmer for over 20 years, since well before MS purchased the company. I’ve been both captive employee and consultant (back and forth just to find work sometimes). Right know I’m a contractor working in Boston while my wife lives in Charlotte – VERY long weekly commute. Currently I am finishing up the studies/testing to become a financial planner.

Small town – This is going to effect ever thing that is said on this board. I don’t know what your family situation is, but don?t sell them short on there ability to support you. It sounds like one of the first questions is “is relocation a possibility?? In a small town, resources are scarce and sometime non-existent. Don’t forget the Internet for resources in the area of continuing education and possible job search (www.dice.com for tech work). Other sites include http://www.sologig.com, http://www.tjobs.com as well as TechRepublic.

Bliss – I agree with several of the previous posts! Do what you can to discover your self and follow your instincts, get to the point where you know yourself and can trust that person. Po Bronson?s work is good, as well as What Color is your Parachute?? Also Crow Ministries has some personality testing software focused on work, look at CareerDirect at http://www.crown.org. If not Crown, consider some personality testing to look at what you might be interested in and where you talents are. Don?t get stuck in the old paradigm of work, 40 hours in a 5 by 8 week. Right now I work 3 weeks a month and take a week off each month to study. Previously I worked Monday through Thursday and had a three-day weekend every week. I don?t know your relationship with your new boss, but after so much time there I would assume you could talk to somebody at the company about opportunities to change your job description within the same company. If your willing to work latter in life, consider taking time off on an on-going basis in exchange for having to work past 65. BUT don?t underestimate the power of compounding retirement funds.

Non-Profit ? I?ve done a fair amount of volunteer work for the volunteer environment. They are frequently MUCH more appreciative of the work you do. In general they will always take as much or more of your time as you are willing to give. To find opportunities, contact your local United Way office. They coordinate other agencies needs. For paid positions, two things to think about are you have as much (if not more) of the office politics as for-profit organizations. Two, in addition to all the other issues you have more pressure from the we?re always broke? and will the political wind blow the wrong way and cause our funding to be cut.

Good luck in whatever you do!!

Looking back it looks more like a nickel?

For those of a spiritual tendency

Home

In this market…

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I haven’t had the chance to read all the responses so if I am repeating what someone else said, so be it. In this economy and job market, having a job and being, as you said, well paid for it is nothing to sneeze at. Having been out of work for many months last year and seen first hand what happens when you can’t pay the mortgage, I would not be so quick to advise this person to leave a job.

However, I also understand feeling like you want more satisfaction out of life. But that doesn’t have to come from your job. There are many other places to get enjoyment, fulfillment, etc. Find an organization that you feel strongly about and volunteer there. Develop hobbies and interests that may have lain dormant for a while. Join a theater group if you enjoy being center stage.

Find other places and other things to challenge you, stimulate you and give you a feeling of engagement. I wouldn’t tell many people to leave a good paying job just to seek some sort of vaguely defined “need for satisfaction”. Not now. Not in this economy.

New Career Direction

In reply to In this market…

If I were you I would consider teaching your programming craft. It?s amazing how students have a way of making you see things in a new light and its very rewarding to see the looks on the faces of students when they ?get it?.

If you teach in schools like New Horizons or Executrain you will get more offers for employment than you can seriously entertain. High dollar offers too.

Also if I were you I would try creating a program to sell over the Internet. And there isn?t any reason to come up with something new and completely different. One subject to think about is File or Folder security. I recently bought AIRoboform because I NEEDED something to secure and remember my passwords for me. But I wished there had been an alternative program available with similar features.

You are also free to consult. $120.00 an hour is the going rate here in California. This can give you some financial breathing room. You can accept work from several companies that specialize in consulting to get started. The pay is less but imagine going to a different place every week and meeting new people. Tackling a new or different problem at each stop. The cool thing here is you may already have the solution because you have seen the same thing before somewhere else. This is where your high wages become reasonable for the corporate world.

Consider getting certified as an MCSA and CCA. (I highly recommend this.) It equals more money.

Personally I would never abandon my work experience and start over anew. I would want to build on what I already have.

Lastly consider your retirement don?t give up your job until you are able to develop an income similar to what your have now just because your bored.

Hope it helps

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I am a 30 y.o. Dutch female working in programming and administering applications for a little over 5 years now and have found myself in the same situation for about 1 to 1.5 years now.
I wanted to tell you more about how I got in this situation, but It?s too much and moreover I understand how u feel. Sympathy is great but any aid leading to real solutions would be super, I guess anyway. Just so you understand my dissatisfaction is great at this moment and there were times I thought I should just do anything to change how I feel, but then I calmed down again and thought, there has to be a better way!? And that is were I am now, I believe there is a better way and I am exploring it.

And I have learnt that unattended dissatisfaction can spread, like its contaminated. I think for me it started when after putting a lot of effort into a situation which seemed unchangeable, I began becoming more and more dissatisfied with my future perspective and then at one point I started to question if I had chosen the correct field to work in!?

I have made some progress but am not there yet! And while reading all the replies I agree there?s a bit of truth in all of them, how odd it may seem.
I started writing down the things I liked in my career and the things I really disliked, to start identifying the things that were really bugging me and I wanted to get rid of and things I was satisfied about.
I also wrote down all the knowledge and the skills I acquired, to help explore future possibilities.
And tried to extract from myself the skills I had prior to my career and my IT study. I asked myself questions like which things I already did naturally without giving much thought to AND I enjoy(ed) much?? Which things I really didn?t like doing?? Why I chose to study IT and to work in IT??

A lot back-track thinking and writing later gave me at least a bit of sense and insight into where I stand now and some options of how I would like to proceed. And I don?t know exactly what my end destination is, but at least I have found some direction and this helps to give peace of mind. I agree its our own responsibility to be happy and we should take steps to live alive we are happy living. I also agree that when you really manage to ?listen to? yourself you might find there are skills which can lead you to a totally new career path which you perhaps can combine with IT or maybe not. For now I have decided to follow a career path with (foreign) language(s), perhaps in translating(?) and more dealings with people in coaching/advising in combination (or need be NOT combined) with IT.

What helped me was a lot of analyzing, thinking out of the box, talking about it, reflecting and many (small) steps and taking the time I needed to understand what?s happening and determine what next. I am still at my current employer, I know I have to leave asap and I am actively searching for the opportunity & time to leave without harming myself.

I wish you a lot of stamina, peace of mind, insight and luck!

Signs you know its time to leave..

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

1) When the thought of going to work is immediately followed by the feeling of nausea.

2) When the thought of someone (or several people) you work with suddenly makes you smile happy thoughts of napalm, TNT and .50 caliber uranium depelted rounds expelled at high speed and at mass quantity.

3) When you scream (or have strong desire to want to) at your spouse, bf/gf when they want to ask how things are at work.

yep the signs are pretty clear.

It may be time to go….

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I’m sure you’ve already done this: be careful of your perspective. It may not be as bad as it seems.

However, you mentioned that you dread going to work, and your paycheck is the primary reason you’re still there. Based on my similar experience, it may be time to go.

Go to where the opportunities are, make a decision based on the best option you have, and get out of the hole you’re in. You’re obviously aware that there are good and bad times regardless, but it does you no good, especially as a programmer, to have to dread going to work.

Just a thought…But good luck; I’m sure you’ll be fine.

Judt Do It

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Well I’ve heard a great deal about your delimna:

o Broke & Unemployed Sucks
o Hobbies can make money for you & many times turn into careers.
o Get yourself educated – Plenty of FREE training on the internet & elsewhere.
o Find a need and fill it
o Verizon says, “Make progress every day.”
o Nike says, “Just Do It”
o Propax with NT factor will help restore or bring back your energy.

Question is “What do you want to do?
Pick something or else circumstances will lead you.

Set some goals.

Then, “Just Do It”

PS: Let us know what you decide.

Good Luck…

Don’t run –just yet

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

WHat is the real problem: you the job or the environment? You need to assess what isn’t working for you–and you may not find that in a new company either. SUggest figuring out what doesnt fit for you and having a conversation with you boss. If you are good at what you do, he doesn’t want to lose you, good programmers are hard to find. maybe there is a way to make it better for you — training opportunities, job exchange, team leader, representign the company at external events, be creative! once you have tried all then maybe a change is the answer; but not a first step unless you really know what you are stepping into –maybe a totally different career! USe the time to pay off all your bills… u r rite $$$ isn’t everything but try telling your landlord that! If you have a family, better prepare them for the change as well — this doesn’t just affect you. Even your mother may cringe that you are leaving a good job!

EDUCATE YOURSELF

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I was in the same boat where I felt I had been in the same job way too long.

HOWEVER I decided it was a great time to get my credentials upgraded while I had a job that I could do well with little stress. I took several professional review classes, bought the review books and passed three new professional certifications.

My employer has been delighted with this effort, supported me financially and time wise for taking these tests AND I earned a whole new level of respect from everyone in the company as a guy who is on the move !!!

Plus the employer management now knows I am much more valuable employee and more employable in the job market so they have made some concessions to make my job better.

Plus it has been rewarding to learn new things!!!
Now I am doing major home projects and upgrades while I do not have an overwhelming job.

Plus as a final note, if I ever get laid off, I have plenty of new credentials to shop with for a new job.

Gary

Amen on gaining those credentials

In reply to EDUCATE YOURSELF

I have left a couple jobs under those circumstances. The last time I ended up filing bankruptcy. Finally recovering from financial mess. Been blessed with current job, though.

I’m in my 40s and totally understand the rush to accumulate for retirement. The wife and I are both going to college for our BS degrees. I am also looking at picking up MCSE, MCSD and MCDBA certification on the side to add to my degree. With 2 small children, it’s a struggle, but it will be worth it.

There seems to be a lot of jobs out there for people with qualifications and experience I am going to be one of those people who can pick and chose.

I am also condsidering moving to a larger metro area for a while until I can establish a ‘working remote’ relationship with an/some employer(s). Some employers like the tax break they can get from having an employee working remotely. I believe it’s an energy-saving tax credit. Maybe you can discuss this with your current employer.

David

Certs – thats a whole different discussion

In reply to Amen on gaining those credentials

I am an MCSD – and it’s not a ‘paper cert’ either!
I also have 2 degrees graduating with honors or on Dean’s list.

Been laid off 3x in the past 4 years and I’m not sure that it helped in finding a job or in the salary offered when I did.

There is no one golden solution to getting selected for an interview, much less being offered a job.

Reply To: How do you know when its time to leave?

In reply to EDUCATE YOURSELF

hey gary, do you list your certs – ie let your emplyers know you are certed? i did – i got a negative reaction. especially from my boos who has no certs.

Time for a major change

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I was once in the same situation. I was an industrial electrician that did PLC programming and wiring. I started a part time job in the evening to see if I would like IT. I did it first for a few friends and then some small businesses. After I found that I enjoyed the hardware side of IT. I then decided to see what it would take to make it full time. I talk to my Local Chamber of Commerce and they got me in touch with the right organizations to start. It took about a year to get everything rolling. I have enjoyed it for the past 8 years, but even now and again I start to feel the same as before. I think the fun and the spark of the job comes from within. The organizations can change and most certainly do thru time. Wherever we end up I believe we set attitude and altitude of our profession.

Time to leave…yes it is…for me too!

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I know how you feel. Same issues here…staffing changes, don’t really enjoy the job any more…etc. I’ve been doing IT for 18 yrs (max of 5 yrs at one place) and I’m just tired of it. I’m 100% in it for just the paycheck. I have a 1.25 hr commute one way each day and I just don’t know how much longer I can do it.

Problem is, like others, is that I need to collect a paycheck while I search for something else. I just don’t know what that something else is yet. Lot’s of things I’d like to do, but with our current lifestyle a drastic change is salary would be very hard to manage. All this is very scary.

The lack of motivation at work has overflowed into other aspects of life. I’m finding it hard to get motivated to even look for a new job.

Signed,
Stuff in a rut

Hope this helps!

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Presidio,

I work as a job placement specialist for individuals with disabiliyties. A greater challenge than what your faced with. The best advice I could give without knowing where you live and having yor resume is this: I always tell individuals you are doing yourself and the firm you work for a great disservice if you are unhappy. In my own experience I found out being happy at lower pay was a greater reward than the income coming in. I would gladly help more if you would like to contact me and give me that information. Hope to hear from you and I pray this gets you started on the right path.

My email is: rjheppler@yahoo.com

When and Why is it Time to Leave?

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Best advice I can start with, if you haven’t already done so, is work on a really good resume. This is not only a must, I find that it helps me feel better about my future prospects. “Turns on the light at the end of the tunnel.”
Research where you want to go both physically and mentally. If you don’t like your job, maybe it’s time for a little more school and a career change.
Another good thing to do is figure out why your so unhappy at work, sometimes you’ll find it’s not the job that’s got you down, it’s the ill conceved notion of what the job is to provide. It’s NOT supposed to be your life. Find other interests after work to look forward to and appreciate the fact that you have a job that allows you to pursue those interests.

Changing directions is a good thing

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I was in your place 9 years ago. I quit my job, then bounced around from one to another until 1998 when I decided to go back to school.
I looked into our local community college to see what they had to offer, completed my AA degree, and now have completed a BS in Technology, so that I can get a Master’s of Education in Technical Education to teach in high school everything that I know and will continue learning.
I have learned so much on-the-job and with my education that I have a lot to offer students, especially the practical experience.
I am much happier today. I do not have a lot of money, however, I found out that making $80,000 a year as I was is not all it is cracked up to be. When I do start working full time again, I will not only feel good about going to work everyday, I will also feel good about myself. Now isn’t that what is most important??!!??
Good luck in whatever you decide to do. 🙂

Alternatives and Options.

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Sir –
I think that many are in your position given the current environment, although this provides little relief. Some have suggested being your own man, working for yourself, quitting your job, etc. While these are great options with varying levels of risk, (stereotyping here) many programmers prefer to be intraverts and simply do not want to work for themselves, nor be placed in a sales type of a situation. They merely want to do their rewarding job, collect their payment, and go home to their family. Sounds like a nice life to me.
Ok now for my $.02. Have you considered taking your IT skills into other departments (depending upon how large of a company you work for) such as IT contract Mgt, Relationship Mgt, Asset Mgt, IT audit, etc. Your expertise and experience would be extremely beneficial and is usually lacking in these other departments. Many times these other functional area are full of business people that really do not have the skills to bridge the technical to the business world. A little experience in the business (audit/CM) department might provide another set of glasses in which you can view and solve problems. This might allow you to feel the rush you’re looking for while providing motivation and personal satisfaction. With your IT skills, you would soon become an valuable resource & expert in anyone of these depts.

I was there–in a completely different field

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I used to work in law. Got a great paycheck–enjoyed it. Then my job situation changed and I found myself with shaking hands, clenched stomach, and even my children were affected as they got into trouble at school day after day. I got out–and I didn’t have anything to go TO. I started “temping” and I found that temp work was so very rewarding–and daunting with I didn’t have work. Still, it was an excellent way for me to “try out” different fields of work while remaining with my initial passion–computers. I started working for a non-profit and getting lousy pay–but I was interested in the atmosphere and the work itself…and I was the one who “profited” in the end with the renewed attitude. I am now back in college after 40 years out, my kids are grown and out of school and college, and I make sure I have hobbies and pets AFTER 5 p.m. Taking my focus off my steady job after working hours is a key part of my strategy–and it, too, has made all the difference in my countenance. I have to examine, from time to time, what EXACTLY is the scenario I am having difficulty with; but I wouldn’t go back in law for all the money they could pay me. Its just not worth it to my sanity.

Follow your instincts

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Life’s too short to hate going to work. In 2 years I will have my RN. I’ll probably be the oldest RN to graduate from my program.

Hot Topic

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I was writing a novel about how I changed my life around a year ago… But I left it out, maybe next post.

For now I’ll just say how surprised I am at the number of response to this thread. I thought I’d be writing a reply to one or two, but hell was I wrong. I haven’t even got thru them all yet.

There are some different responses to your situation but I think that the better ones are the ones suggesting a change of pace. Even if only part-time, a course can help a lot to get you out of your rut. A change is as good as a break they say.

You really need to get out. From there, who knows. Only you can guide your life and answer your questions about what you want.

There’s a lot of good ideas in the posts but the main one, the most important one is that first step. Make the move in any direction as long as it isn’t backwards. Although it’s a hard one to know which way that is. For you, you said you knew what it is like to be broke & that you didn’t like it, well then I guess that’s backwards for you. There’s no security in changing jobs. The best thing to do to avoid “brokeness” is to find a job while in a job. Even then you might not like it and may want to move again. Then do, don’t become stagnant. Find a job while in a job even if you have to do so many times. That way you’ll have money coming in and you want be going backwards. You may be going round in circles but not backwards. Thats up to you. I changed company oooh at least 100 times when I was in Security. But I’ve only changed jobs 3 or 4. I’ve been lucky to land on my feet with this one. I’m 25, two kids loving partner and a great job. Decent pay could be better but I’m happy here. For now anyway, I may change company many more times but I’ve found my niche in life. From now my path is to self employment. But I’m on the right track, it took 8 yrs to get here. Left a ?40,000 career to go into computers @ ?17,500. Ain’t happiness pricless…..

So I did write a novel, but it was more of a fiction one(speaking of future plans that is).

Presidio, do me one thing? Promise YOURSELF that you will not go stagnant or backwards. Next time you get that feeling that you still love the code, sit back and take 10 to think of why you do..

See y’all.

The grass is always greener…

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

As they say, the grass is always greener on the other side, but the water bill is higher too. Don’t leave behind a solid job because you think you can find a better one, there is no such thing as a perfect job. The only circumstance that would be safe is if you have another job ready to go. Beware the unforeseen problems…

RE: So where does one go from here?

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Job dissatisfaction is a systemic poison. At first we don’t notice or we ignore our suspicions that there could be something better. Saturation comes about subtly but thorougly. The sense of dread, mental wearieness, boredom, physical angst will grow…You may become very bitter and your friends and co-workers will start to avoid you because you spew negativity. Or, you may be “right-sized” out of your job. Worse yet, you may internalize all of this as a reflection of you and lose your confidence in your skills and abilities. Losing confidence, you also lose your motivation. Losing motivation, you also lose your vision to see that there are opportunities right in front of you. Use your current job as a spring board. Take from it all of the training opportunities to prepare yourself for the next thing. When you are ready, or if you are ready to move on, then just do it. No one will ever keep up with technology, but that doesn’t mean the effort is wasted or pointless. It sounds like you still have some interest in programming and I would suggest that there are lots of opportunities to nourish that Programming interest by getting involved with open source projects. You can maintain a sense of community, but devote only as much time as your other interests allow. Moving on to something part-time in a completely different arena is not all it is cracked up to be unless you really spend the time to define your life: your likes, dislikes, interests, your financial needs for now and in the future. In other words, if you don’t spend time defining your requirements, you will keep experiencing doubt and job wanderlust. Go ahead and jump. But plan as best you can, for your next expedition before you step off that cliff. When you jump the net really does appear, but it’s just a net that will hold you in some other place. If you plan first you grow wings when you make that leap and you get to a higher better place. LEAP!

T.

Respect and Encouragement

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I am a firm believer in respect and encouragement whne it comes to the managers who are supposed to show these attributes with adept ability towards their team. If you are not getting that kind of respect, it can feel like a nowhere dead-end job.

I don’t know if this is the case with you, but I used to work at a place whose acronym could also be used for (I Bet Money) or (I Be Mental). I had about ten different managers in the course of four years and each one was different, but one thing struck me as funny; they attempted to emulate each other. The second line manager would develop a catch phrase and suddenly every manager under him was blurting it out as over used, poorly developed rhetoric. It was so absurd and almost Dilbert worthy of a nuisance.

Granted, some of the managers could actually joke around with you, and you felt a bit of commradery, but you knew there was a line drawn in the dirt that you didn’t cross.

Other managers drew the line and let you know where it was and that you were in danger of crossing it even if you had done nothing wrong.

When I was under the better managers I felt better about my job. Things were funner and there was room for relaxation, and in the hard times we would make the extra effort to get the job done, so to speak.

When I was under the more depressing managers, I felt like this was going nowhere and this guy doesn’t even care about us. I even heard one of these managers tell my supervisor that “he didn’t need to be here and that if he left tomorrow they could replace him with some other monkey”… I mean how much of that could YOU take in your workplace? He took it with a grain of salt and approached Personnel and my supervisor was moved to another city; Talk about unfair.

needless to say, I left shortly thereafter as I did not feel comfortable at that place of business anymore. But I did make sure I had something lined up before I made my move. It’s only the smart thing to do, right?

I wish you luck and hope you find a better job you can respect rather than a job that is just dragging you down into a pit of despair…

To cheer you up: How many Dragonball-Z character’s does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

only one character, but it will take about 6 episodes, he will have to die, be ressurected, undergo 2 character transformations and find all seven dragonballs.

This is a good one if you are a DBZ fan… lol

Options fo Leaving

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Many other advisors have had good suggestions. Have you tried to concentrate on a portion of your duties that interest you? If you have worked with any vendors for your organization, perhaps they would need someone in your area or other companies would be interested in someone with your skills that could work via the net or long distance. One vendor I worked with had two people on different coasts that worked from home except for quarterly or annual meetings… maybe you could stay where you are and with the net or contacts bring a job to you.

Cut the chains

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Seems like you have hit a stop point in your life. Many of us would like to have the “perfect” job. In some cases, they do exist, but you have to put out your “feelers” in order to find them.
You mention that there has been changes within your company. Was this an all out change or a gradual one? Most important have you talked with the other staff (ones that haven’t been shuffled out) and how they feel about the changes? Also would be a good idea to talk to a recent employee(s) to find out why they left. Has the company remarked about the high turn-overs in staff?
If most of the answers to these questions leave you with a rock in your stomach, then it might be time for a change. Food for thought, have you pondered on the idea of going back and getting educated on the areas you feel you lack in? Most people whether it be a seminar or an educational curb, come back totally “revitalized” and ready to share this with their fellow workers.
My company encourages the staff to “be all they can be”. This is posted in our lunch room: MOTIVATION

“Goals are what keep us going. To be continually working is not enough, we must see clearly the next step. To keep moving after achieving one goal, we must set a new one. The key to momentum is always having something to look forward to.”

If you need a change, do it! Don’t be frightened that you are going to fail, you won’t. Just look back at all your accomplishments and you’ll know that things will only get better.

Good luck in the choice you make.

Bang your Head

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

When you are tired of banging your head on people who will not listen to you- then come crying about the very subjects you have been trying to enlighten them about. Then it is time to adios. Frustration should not be the mainstay of a technical job maybe a fraction of but not the majority.

Build a Bridge

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

The way in which you leave a job can be just as valuable as the work you have done on the job. There are good ways to move on.

You say there are times when you still enjoy coding.

Find out what part of your work you enjoy, then *work* at trying to make that happen in your current job situation.

In other words, build a bridge in your current employment that will help you and your employer continue to be successful. Your job is to make your company successful and hopefully learn, have fun and stay challenged while acheiving this.

You will, as another member wrote, also discover what you enjoy doing and will be better prepared to find it.

If you decide to leave after having done all you can to create a successful environment, both you and your employer will benefit in the process of your leaving. They don’t need someone hanging around not motivated, and you don’t need to be stuck in a job you dislike.

Ask for severance. Ask for them to pay your COBRA. Ask for a good recommendation. Ask them what they need from you. A job is a relationship.

Bridges can be crossed more than once.

Good Luck

Mal1ichi

Is it time to leave?

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Presidio,

I have read 84 messages at this point ? the good the bad, the dumb, the personal and the religious – and came back to yours to try to help.

First, my credentials:
1957 BS Accounting
1957 City Auditor 4 years, Army 2 years,
1962 City Programmer 4 years.
1967 Systems Engineer / Instructor? Blue Chip manufacturer. 25+ years
1992 Non-Profit Organization
1993 IT Professor at the local community college

I have seen almost all of the problems first hand that have been mentioned. I have been overworked, underpaid, disrespected, and the object of racism. Also suffered life changes – divorced and remarried. Through it all I tried to be rational and realistic ? and to understand what I was doing to cause the current situation. Net result: I quit the City (a good move); at Blue Chip I changed jobs, accepted a demotion (also a good move in that stresses were eliminated) and finally quit with an early retirement when things were getting ugly. I am still working half time and loving it.

Is it time for a change for you?

Why and how did you change through ?several companies? in the last 10 years? What is making you unhappy there? ?Sometimes ?this particular work environment?need a complete new direction?personal life changes? I would rather earn less and enjoy??

You must decide what you really want to do. If you decide that IT is the industry then know there will ALWAYS be change. I have seen and survived 42 years of it.

Obviously you are not living on the edge since you can accept less money. That?s good ? it gives you more options. Teaching might be an option at a public school or college ? and it could give you summers off.
Consider your health. Your current stress could affect it.

Be sure your problems are not of your own doing and follow you. Oz_Media says that almost everyone is happier after being fired and finding new work but I agree with SteveC in Florida that others find themselves even more unhappy with their positions.

If possible have a backup plan [Moloch].

Do some Research – Don?t miss reading jackmail@bellsouth.net He (she?) makes great points. 6/17/04

Also read the four points from mitchlr on 06/17/04

Find a mentor or coach – rgcurry@jcpenney.com Date: 06/17/04

Good luck.
Walter – wjohnson@ccp.edu

Part Time a possibility?

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Have you inquired about converting to part time? I’ve been in the very same rut. Having to learn new languages over and over again (or rather development platforms and environments these days) gets tiresome just for the sake of keeping up with the latest and greatest with no real benefit to that. Plus, retirement is not a great option financially when you are just an employee for someone else.

At any rate, an opportunity was presented to convert my hobby/passion (flying) to a business 3 months ago. The contract to manage the local airport was recently reopened so a partner and I submitted a bid and won the contract. He left his job with his family business to be there full time. I was able to convert my full time IT job to half time (with half pay) giving me more time to devote to the new business and more able to focus on the IT job totally while there.

Yep I’m working 4 hours a day M-F at the IT job followed by 8 more hours M-F after that and 12 hours each Sat and Sun. However, I’m having a ball!!

I also am enjoying putting my IT skills to practical application getting computers networked, WIFI in place, custom database application, web site, etc at the airport business. I won’t be surprised if down the road I have a new specialty application developed and start marketing it.

I did invest a huge chunk of my savings nest egg into the new business. And now we are both HIGHLY motivated to succeed. Fortunately, we both are single and have no kids to support. And my rather large house with pool will probably hit the market later this year (partially to get out from under its obligation and partially because I now have NO time to take care of it and not much to enjoy my pool)

Major life shifting for sure and the most satisfaction I’ve had in a very long time.

If you are able to convert to a reduced schedule, then you will have more time and energy to pursue education, a hobby, or other part time endeavor.

The other good suggestions I thought were to convert to more tech support or technical sales.

time to leave?

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Self-diagnosis: “moments where I really get into the code and enjoy developing”.

Problem: Narrowness
Solution: Broaden.
Paint, climb, sail, write, race, community choir or theater, mentoring, whittle.
NOT overtime.

This Might Help….

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

It’s amazing how much your story sounds like mine did about two years ago. I’m a mechanical engineering by training but have made a big jump into program management. One thing I did back then was take a course toward an MBA that had the express goal of helping me figuring out what I want to be when I grow up. I was 43 then and really still had no clue. The course required us to use this book (at amazon) and it really, really helped me to figure out where I was at and where I wanted to be.

I’ve since given it to both my daughters (one in college and one just graduated) and they both got some good out of it. The book is a hands on self-help career advisor that, if you take the time to do the excercises and reall think about them, will really help you out. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684823993/qid=1087489416/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-8965404-1729541

Hope the link makes it through in one piece.

Best of Luck!

Hans

DO WHAT I DID!! IT’LL BE THE BEST THING YOU EVER DID FOR YOUR CAREER!!

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I can tell you from my own personal experience that going solo and starting my own business is by far THE BEST thing that has happened in my life. I too live in a small town and there were literally no more than 20 high paying IT jobs, and nobody was moving out any time soon. I couldnt find anything that could flex my skills AND make me feel good. So I went into business for myself doing IT consulting for businesses and consumers, now i make 4 times what i did before AND I command how much i want to make and when i want to work, I take vacations when I want (pseudo on call for the bigger clients), and will NEVER go back to clocking in somewhere. Ypu are a programmer so, like me, starup cost will be MINIMAL if not zero. Getting a tax ID is FREE from the irs, and thats all you need to start charging money for your service! The rest is up to you, but i garuntee that you’ve probably already worked somewhere, or know somebody who could use a good piece of software, or an existing app redesigned. You can easily start by undercutting the S**T out of the competition, make good money, and gain a client base in a relatively short period of time. If you could market software design and maintenence as a service(instead of a product), and charge a monthly rate(basically outsource your business), you wouldnt need a large client base, and you can have plenty of free time to to what you want to do, which is live your life and be satisfied with it.

It is so simple you’ll kick yourself for not doing it sooner!!

By The Way.

In reply to DO WHAT I DID!! IT’LL BE THE BEST THING YOU EVER DID FOR YOUR CAREER!!

I also have a friend Josh Headlee who is also a software programmer. He co wrote the “Microsoft Baseline Security Analyzer”, im sure you know what that is(look in the source code for the about page). He too went into business for himself and now his life has also gotten a lot better. He makes a lot of money , and has a lot of free time.

You can even start your business WHILE you have a steady income(actually that first year is great for taxes!).

Why get paid a little bit to help somebody else make a lot?

Start your own business and make all the money yourself!!

Caution required

In reply to DO WHAT I DID!! IT’LL BE THE BEST THING YOU EVER DID FOR YOUR CAREER!!

Just starting out on your own is a good option, but there are caveats. Make sure you have the $$$ to hold yourself over until you establish yourself with a regular comfortable client base. Just jumping out into the independent world may seem like a good idea, but it requires planning. You must be prepared to market yourself (my own personal weak spot) and sell yourself constantly.

Not having work when I went independent, by the way, was never as stressful as working with my former employer. My health (mental and physical) has never been better. I have stressful days, but nothing is nearly as stressful as hopelessness (when stuck in a job you despise).

You only have one body and one mind in this lifetime and you can’t put a price on the value of it. Stress will ultimately have long range consequences with regards to your health and longevity.

Once you go independent, you will doubtfully ever want to voluntarily go back to work for anyone else. Quit as soon as you have a plan, but make sure you do something. Your body is trying to tell you something.

As a sidebar, yoga is a great stress reliever for us IT people who work these hideous long hours. It also helps eliminate a lot of the everyday aches and pains that desk work tends to bring.

Take care and good luck!

Mark Pescatrice
Matrice Consulting LLC

Be Ready for a difficult time

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Well, staying at at job that you don’t like it is not a good idea, but leaving it, specially when your reason is 95% for the pay check, means that that check is vital for you. So unless you are preper for be able to live for a while with No income at all, you better stay, and try to do your best. If you don’t like the supervisor, then work harder to become the supervisor. Please do not missunderstand me. I am not saying that you don’t work hard, what I am saying is that only you can decide what would happend next. Now do not believe that there are a lot of IT jobs, becuase there are a lot of job posting, but thousands of people applying for that jobs. Experience is good, but low cost is better.

Anyway Good luck

Don’t Give UP

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I would like to share my experience. I worked 25 years in the Sales Division of a manufacturing concern from a junior position to a relatively senior position with increased responsibility over the years over various product lines and departmental responsibilities. But I left the company at age 50 and from a Sales/marketing background moving on to an IT Solutions company. I am so enthusiastic over my new work which includes marketing of software solutions, and creating new ones with our programmers. I meet new customers in the process, and work with new people who are becoming a new group of friends to me, and my working lifestyle also changes with the job change and in my opinion for the better and not just pay-wise. I am now so much happier than before – I do not wish to dwell into the negative reasons I left the previous company but the situation I face is rather similar to yours and much more. But I have prepared myself for the change, as I took courses at college to upgrade myself both in knowledge and qualification and I was an active contributor in terms of IT work with our IT Dept. And I would like to add that age is not a factor. In fact in class I am learning with 18 – 20 years old when I was already in my forties but I enjoyed myself despite the hectic schedules between work, travelling on biz trips, family life, rushing to pass up assignment, attending night classes, exams, etc which really boils down to some sacrifice and good time management. I hope my experience will encourage you to look and move forward and dont let the past be a hindrance to whatever you decide to do from so many of the useful advise that readers have given. Know what you want, get yourself prepared and move mentally ahead.All the best!

statistics

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Here’s one “interesting” statistics I found from
http://ct.itbusinessedge.com/t?ctl=5F684F:24453C0

1 in 7
IT workers who describe themselves as ‘very happy’ in their work, compared to one in three happy hairdressers, plumbers and chefs.

Kris

It is simple. Are you happy?

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

There is only one answer to this question. Are you happy? If not, it’s time to leave. Life is too short to be somewhere you don’t want to be. You only get one chance to be happy everyday of your life. Don’t waste it! You can’t go back and change those days you’ve been unhappy in life, but fortunately you can spend the rest of your days making sure your happy where ever you spending your time while your alive. As the song says, “BE HAPPY”!!!

Change Agent

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

My suggestion is that you take the Myers Briggs and several other test to see your areas of skills or occupations never explored or hardly explored. Once you get an idea of some area possibly volunteer for a while to see what really goes on and or take a short term contract or W2 assignment with the firm or company in that specific role. Small town may have alot of opportunities, you may find that the roles you have researched my have extreme value to the folks in your corner of the country. Please don’t be afraid to explore telecommuting jobs which provide more flexible travel schedules sometimes.
Best Wishes for a successful change.

Locating Telecommuting Jobs

In reply to Change Agent

Telecommuting would have great benefits!
I have been able to work at home from time to time (different company)
I am very disciplined and enjoy that environment quite a bit.
BUT I’ve searched for telecommuting jobs and come up dry — where are they?

It’s worth leaving

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Speaking only for myself, and I am probably in the minority, but I was so stuck in the comfort zone of my previous job (note I said previous) that I made it an Olympic sport. I had so many excuses for staying there: I had let my IT skills (what few I had) go to pot, the company didn’t pay for new training (especially if the class had nothing to do with our current systems etc), I had no money to pay for my own, I was so completely unsure of myself and my abilities that I couldn’t move, and I convinced myself that I was just still a “good fit” with the place. They needed me, for the most part, but I was doing silly stuff that never seemed to have any hopes to get better in the future. But I was comfortable. The stress I had was minimal, but started to build because I was becoming increasingly miserable in the job. There wasn’t much left for me to do, not much hope for advancement of any kind (I was a 1-person IT dpt), the company always tottered on the edge of bankruptcy, I feared being laid off even though I was probably one of the safest emp’s in there.
Then an opportunity through a friend fell in my lap. It was a lateral move, but I’d be busy every day. There would always be users to support and projects to do. It had the security of a union/public job (well, more security than the private sector and the place I was working at anyway.) It was also a $100 a week pay cut from a job that didn’t pay much in the 1st place. I jumped on it, and prayed I’d get the job. I knew it was the end of my road, and I have not regretted my decision one bit. With contractual raises, I’m within $20 of what I was making 14 months ago already. (Again still not much, but I am not likely to be laid off any time soon either. I had not had a raise in 4 years.)
I can’t say I jump outta bed every morning greeting the day… I’m still not much of a morning person… But I don’t get a knot in my stomach thinking about facing another day. The new job had good points (contract raises, security, more to do, a 1.5 mile commute..) and bad ones (pay cut), but I am so much happier here. It was hard to leave my other place after 14years, I miss some of the people. But I’ve made new friends and really enjoy my job most days!
It is time to leave if are asking yourself that question nearly every day.
Good luck in whatever you decide!

I ask myself the same questions

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I’ve read all 111 posts in this thread and am deeply grateful to all who have responded to Presidio’s dilemma, because I feel that I am in a similar situation. In my case, I began a second career by taking a job in IT a little over 8 years ago (I’m a DBA) and now I’m wondering if I made a mistake. Fortunately, I only have to worry about myself rather than an extended family, but there are always financial considerations (I am an older worker, and would like to be able to retire and not be dependent on others etc.). I also live in a rural community where there aren’t many IT openings, and I do not have the personality traits that are needed to be successful at self-employment. But who cares — this is not about me. I would just like to say that I have taken to heart all of the comments and suggestions from this community, and will be thinking long and hard about how work affects my outlook on life, and how I want to spend 8 hours (or more) of each day in the work week — do I dread coming to work because of the nature of the tasks themselves, or is it the constant pressure we all face in IT, or the industry I’m in, or my boss/co-workers, or is it lack of outside interests (or time to pursue them), etc. etc. I realize that for each individual there are different answers and I have to find my own way along this path called life! Thanks to all who carry the torches that help dispel the darkness.

You have to be happy with the work that you do.

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Your condition strikes all of us sooner or later.
Determine if your unrest is from the environment, the work, the people, or yourself.
If the problem is the environment or the people, decide what changes are required to move and do it! As you’ve discovered, the money doesn’t make a bad job good.
If the problem is the work, you may have to go back to school.
If the problem is within yourself, you will not be happy anywere! Satisfied people come from all environments and all conditions. Attitude is the one element which enables the ability to find something worth the effort.

Happiness is something to do, someone to love, and something to look forward to. Make all three a part of your life.

Convenience…

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Most people stay with their current job due to convenience and not wanting to give something up to maybe get something better. Risk is something that we all face and sometimes take. 10 years at a job is a quite a long time. If you are at all interested in growing professionally, it is best to gain experience elsewhere and if you like in a new position. But for goodness sake take the risk and find a new job. Who knows you might love developing elsewhere.

You will always be able to find a job somewhere. That’s the great thing about this country. You may have to settle for less sometimes, but you can always take care of yourself. Take the risk, I mean opportunity!

Been there, Done that

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

After 30 years as a Clinical Laboratory Scientist, I was feeling much the same as you. Hated going to work, no fun anymore. Knew that computers were the up and coming thing, so after quitting my job (without really thinking of what I’d do without one), I signed up for computer classes in a vocational school. Again, my timing was perfect, as by the time I finished, the bottom fell out of the IT job market.

Found a job paying $11/hr in a small (15 employees) manufacturing company because I didn’t really have any experience. It was hard making much less money than I had, but I got 2 years of experience as the “Network Administrator” in the one year I worked there.

Kept my eyes open for positions, but none were to be had. Those very few positions that came open were immediately filled by the hundreds of experienced IT professionals who had lost their jobs. One day a position appeared in the paper for an IBM AS400 operator, no experience necessary, willing to train, open interviews. Needless to say, I was there the next day, resume in hand. I had to talk myself into the job, as my training had, of course, been in Microsoft.

I’ve been on the job for 2 yrs. now. The company’s alright, but my coworkers more than make up for the atmosphere.

When your attitude constantly needs adjusting, sometimes it’s time to pack up and move on. Sometimes making a career move or change is better done without too much thinking about it; thinking about it only gives us more time to find reasons why we can’t. Sometimes just doing it forces us to leave our safety net and actually taking a chance on doing something different because now we have to survive.

Soul Searching

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I’ve read most of the posts since I’ve been wrangling with this for about 1.5 yrs now. When I started my programming job 7 years ago, I was on fire – I couldn’t wait to get to work and the day flew by. Now I fight to stay focused and dread Mondays. This has happened before. I think I stay at jobs/careers too long, but then change is difficult for me.

I am slowly beginning to learn there are 2 options to this career thing:

1) Discover what you were “designed” to do then set about doing it. Others have mentioned many good tools to start with (Meyers Briggs, What Color is Your Parachute, etc.) The theory is if you’re properly leveraging your true talents, you’ll be happy and successful.

2) Shift your point of view. A friend of mine worked for the post office and hated his job. After much analysis he decided the bottom line was that it allowed him to do the things he really loved and so now he puts in his time and goes home.

Personally I’m too much of an idealist for the latter although I am understanding the necessary mentality a bit better than I used to. However in starting the process in #1 myself, I’ve begun some activities outside of work that I really love doing. It really gives me something to look forward to, but I still have to go to work every day, i.e. my outside activities do not completely compensate for the 8 hr dues I pay each day. This tells me I will eventually need to move on.

Maybe an assessment will point you to a different aspect of IT or maybe outside of it altogether. Whatever you decide, start taking action right away. That alone will help eliminate some stress and give you something to look forward to.

Best of luck

Try Government work /w small IT staff

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

In same boat… tired of mainframe COBOL, so went to mini’s & RPG, the staff made unfavorable changes, so tried consulting, didn’t like “true” computing, so went to county government with small IT staff, allowed me to expand into PC’s & Networking… now Security & Internet… Pay hit is about 20-30 %, but good working environment, more laid back, more flexible time schedules/benefits… I’m one happy camper.

Take your Time & Step

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I feel your pain and i have been working only a year! So a change is definately needed but step easy. Ensure you know what you are going to and plan your strategy. The greatest mishap that could happen is for you to start wishing you were back at the job you hated just because things are a bit rough. Keep your Head straight!

ZaZen Zen – more info please

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Can you supply any websites with more info?

FYI – in an effort to relax I do get a massage once a month and listen to calming, New Age, music at work when I can. I also practice breathing methods and simple meditation.

For a while I was taking a regular 15 minute afternoon break outside. I was the only one in the dept. to do something like this. My manager inferred that I was away from my desk too long.

Health Insurance

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I haven’t read all the posts yet, but thanks to everyone who has submitted.

Self employed is an attractive consideration. How does one get *affordable* health insurance if self employed? I know there are many other issues to seriously review before taking the leap – the insurance is a very important one for my family.

Be Satisfied, Not Pacified!

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

We tend to look at our jobs as the focal point of our lives instead of possibly the means by which we live our lives. Possibly you could change your focus from your job to either your family/relationship (or starting one) or an outside hobby or interest. It’s like the importance we put on food–if it could just be used for its intended purpose–nourishment–then we’d probably not be such a fat nation. Good luck!

Time to leave? Maybe!

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Presidio,

Find something that will make you happy. It’s a bit trite but it’s true. I experienced that agony myself. Often, one pay’s a big price for big salaries. You know what I have now with my lower paying “techie” job?

TIME, BETTER SLEEP and better ATTITUDE about things in general.

Good Luck,

_Scott

DITTO!

In reply to Time to leave? Maybe!

Already posted here, but just wanted to agree with the previous posts regarding being “happy” with what you do!

Granted most of us are not doing a job we “love”, but many of us can at least say we do enjoy it for the most part.

To repeat what I’d posted earlier, I had gotten way too comfy in my previous position, allowing my brains & skills to turn to much, and then losing all my confidence in any of my abilities as a result. Then this opportunity came along. Admittedly I was not actively looking for work at the time (I was too chicken still), and this job came up through a friend. Due to union legalities though, I still had to get through the required interview and compete against many other candidates, a few of which were from the “inside” and would have 1st dibs if they were qualified enough.

Now after being here for 15months or so, I have learned a couple of things: I have a lot more skills than I gave myself credit for, most important being the ability to learn new things when I thought I was too old and too technically-mushy to do so! And to again reiterate: I am a lot less stressed, and usually actually do enjoy what I do most days — and for less money than I was previously making. It does affect everything else in life too, as I am much more able to deal with life’s joker cards, because I’m not so dang stressed aobut the job!!!
Good Luck!

Booze may be the only answer…

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

Seriously,

Bring a flask of your favorite thirst quencher into work, and take a couple swigs throughout the day. It will be much less stressful on you, and you may actually enjoy going to work!

But that’s just my opinion.

You can always get money but can’t get the years back

In reply to How do you know when its time to leave?

I was in the same situation as you except that I was doing desktop servicing. Was a time when my workplace was good to be at but like you the people and the corprate climate changed for the worst. I had the “knot in the guts” before work evey day too. Decided that one can always make money but no matter how much you are earning, you can never get the years back you spent in a job that drives you nuts. I took a risk and went out on my own. It’s not easy finacially and I have to put in a lot of hours, but I’m much more motivated and enjoy my work, which is much the same as I was doing when working for a corporate. The advantage I have though is that I live is a city so a so there is more opportunity.
Francis P.

I do agree about the years …

In reply to You can always get money but can’t get the years back

and can make money somehow.

PLEASE tell me if you have insurance – esp health insurance.

I am thinking more and more about going on my own.

Hope all is going well for you.

[Author]

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