General discussion


I Hate Democrats

By maxwell edison ·
Okay, I got your attention.

And to all Democrats:

Get out of my life.

Stop trying to take my personal property.

Stop trying to infringe on my RIGHT to take personal responsibility.

Stop presuming that you know what's better for me than me.

Stop telling me how to live.

Stop telling me how to define my moral values.

Stop telling me how to plan for my own future.

Stop telling me how to raise my kids.

Stop telling me how to educate my kids.

Stop taking my hard-earned income.

Stop trying to take care of my own health.

Stop telling me how to run my own business.

Stop telling me how to live.


I'll make a deal with you. You leave me the **** alone, and I'll leave you the **** alone.

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Not Kidding

by TheChas In reply to You're kidding, right?

First off, I have no vested interest in the present tax system.

Secondly, I already stated that I suspect I would come out ahead under the unfair tax.

My opposition to the so called "fair tax plan" is that it does not pass muster as either fair or just.

The believers in the unfair tax think their is this large stream of presently untapped tax revenue that will fill the coffers and reduce their tax burden.
It just ain't so!

Sure their are people who find ways to reduce their taxes under the present system. Those same people are going to find ways to do purchase goods without paying sales tax under the unfair system.

The concept of capturing tax revenue from criminal activities is even more fanciful!
Do you honestly believe that they acquire a significant portion of their goods through the legitimate economy?
Or, that they won't find a way around a large sales tax?

As to large families, I'm not referring to welfare families. (Their benefits don't change under a tax change.)
I'm referring to a couple who desire to have a large family, and can afford so under the present system. In part because they get a tax break.
Under the unfair tax, they would end up paying so much more in taxes that their dream of a large family would be ruined.

Finally, YES I do seriously believe that the implementation of the unfair tax would bring the US economy to it's knees.


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Chas - The ONLY person in America. . . .

by maxwell edison In reply to You're kidding, right?

.....predicting such doom and gloom if the FairTax plan were to pass.

There is virtually NO organized opposition against it.

There is virtually NO respectable economic organization opposed to it.

There are virtually NO political leaders predicting such silly gloom and doom outcomes.

But Chas is smarter than every person in America.

Ether that, or he is the epitome of a frightened little rabbit.

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re not kidding

by TonytheTiger In reply to You're kidding, right?

Actually it will reduce the tax burden for almost all individuals and businesses. It costs money to comply with the current tax code. That money is gone forever, having provided no useful (to a business or individual) product or service. Not only that, but this cost is passed along and added to in each step of the process from raw material to final consumer. When you talk about something truly complex like a modern automobile, where manufacturers buy from manufacturers of parts who buy components for those parts from other manufacturers, the cost of those taxes can add up to a substantial fraction of the cost. I would have no trouble at all believing that in an automobile or other similarly complex item it could easily be 50%.

22% is the "average" that Fairtax assumes. To me that means some will be higher, and some will be lower. Basically the further you are from "natural resources" in the manufacturing chain, the more imbedded taxes are included in your product. Also under Fairtax, business to business sales are not taxed. This isn't hurting government one bit because businesses write-off all of it anyway, but they still include it in the cost of their product or service, so it will help the consumer to be rid of it.

There are also large untapped sources of revenue. There is the underground economy, consisting of varying levels of seriousness from criminal activity to the average joe doing side work "off the books". I don't know how well this has been pinned down, but it is not insubstantial. When these people use this questionably obtained money, it will be taxed.

Then there is money that has left the country due to our current unfavorable tax position that would return, as well as new money coming in, which will stimulate the economy and put more people to work and improve the position of the people already working.

While the government's needs won't be reduced by a lot (they'll save on the same imbedded taxes when they buy stuff that we will, plus the costs to administer the new system will be greatly reduced), the citizens' ability to meet those needs will be increased, so it will reduce the overall "burden". And I suspect it will be discovered that the initial estimate of a 23% sales tax might have been a couple percent too high.

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The Current "UN-FAIR" Tax system

by Surflover In reply to You're kidding, right?


Max is right (at least more right than you are)...

I am all for the Fair Tax Plan... AND...

I am one of those people who does not pay taxes because I have a smart investment/tax lawyer... I made over 200k last year, paid no tax, and carried a 28k tax credit to this year...

This change would allow me to live in a single home (I own three for tax and residency reasons), drive the car I would like (a ragtop sports car instead of a Mastadon Tax break called an escalade), get rid of my rental property headaches, and just SAVE my extra income for retirement instead of tying it up in all this insane tax aversion... for you see, if I tried that under our current system, Uncle Sam would get almost 50% of my income...

Some of the obstacles it faces to pass into law are;

1. The ultra rich who control the Fed, Congress and the Senate, would never let it pass without giving them time to change all their investments out of tax shelters... and they may view it as empowering the great unwashed they so desperatley avoid...

2. The government would be tied directly to the economy (slow economy=less money for uncle sam)... This has some good and bad consequences, but too many to mention here...

3. The people could ACTUALLY protest bad government policies by organising purchasing boycotts... people don't buy for a week, government gets noticibly less money, they (might) listen... (might not work in practice, but theoretically)...

All in all, I think it would be a huge improvement, even though there might be some growing pains at first...

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Surflover - Great Message - However

by maxwell edison In reply to You're kidding, right?

Personally speaking, as far as its chances of becoming reality, I would give the FairTax plan about a 1 in 1,000 chance of passing congress, maybe more, at least as things stand today.

And another thing I would guess is this. If left up to the current lot of legislators, the weather channel will be reporting blizzards in **** before it passes. It'll take a strong will of the people to force new candidates to bring the plan to the forefront, so either a new lot of legislators will advance the plan, or it will force the existing ones to consider it -- probably a combination of both. But it'll have to be a primary campaign issue for a lot of candidates before it could muster up enough support to pass.

And this is neither a liberal versus conservative or Democrat versus Republican issue either. Harry Reid, the very liberal Democrat Senator from Nevada, supports the plan, or at least is leaning towards supporting the plan, as does Richard Lugar, a Republican Senator from Indiana; and Lugar isn't exactly an extreme conservative. (Who would have guessed? Harry Reid and me supporting the same plan!)

Congress uses the current tax code, not as much as a vehicle for collecting revenue, but for control, plain and simple. And the last thing they want to give up is control.

People like Chas amaze me at their fear of taking control back from the government. Fear and ignorance -- the two things that will keep the FairTax plan from becoming reality.

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It may take

by TonytheTiger In reply to You're kidding, right?

something more than "The strong will of the people"....

The reason I think it will have a hard time passing is:

Even worse than the lust for money is the lust for control. Unfortunately, there are some sick individuals in our legislature that absolutely love manipulating the little people in their little lives, and would gladly do it without any pay at all.

They probably tortured animals as children.

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Hey Max

by Surflover In reply to You're kidding, right?

"People like Chas amaze me at their fear of taking control back from the government. Fear and ignorance -- the two things that will keep the FairTax plan from becoming reality."

I think that was Goebbles comment to Hitler on how to control the german people enough to get rid of the jews, he managed the ignorance, Hess handled the fear.

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Love the Fair Tax plan

by master3bs In reply to The FairTax plan

Good to hear other people talking about it. Be sure to check out the website at

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What about savings?

by rfink In reply to Love the Fair Tax plan

If we change over to a sales tax system then I get hit twice on my savings. I paid income taxes on them when I earned the principle and interest and now I have to pay sales tax on them when I spend them?

What about real estate? Putting a 20+% sales tax on real estate would kill it. It won't help the auto industry any either.

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On Real Estate and Autos

by maxwell edison In reply to What about savings?

This FairTax proposal will tax only NEW items, not used ones. You can buy a used car, and pay no tax at all. You can buy a used house, and pay no tax at all.

For those who do buy a new car or a new house, the same principle would apply.

"Homebuilders will Reduce Costs and Increase Profits: Like other firms, homebuilders will enjoy a zero corporate tax rate under the FairTax. Also, shareholders will not be taxed on dividends received from homebuilders or on capital gains from their investments. Partnerships, limited liability companies and sole proprietorships will also not be taxed on profits because of the repeal of the individual income tax.

Overall compliance costs of the current income tax system will be reduced. These costs, which are estimated conservatively to be $225 billion,[1] are partly borne by homebuilders (discussed below).

All purchases by homebuilders of building materials will be free of consumption tax. Business-to-business sales are not taxed under the FairTax. Moreover, since all producers of these materials will be operating free from income tax and with dramatically lower compliance costs, material (wood, sheet rock, nails, etc.) prices that now contain these costs will fall significantly. This will allow homebuilders to sell their products at lower prices while maintaining their current profit margins.

Research by Dr. Dale Jorgenson, Chairman of the Department of Economics at Harvard University and one of the country?s leading economists, shows that producer costs in the construction industry will decrease in the first year by as much as 25 percent. Economic output in the construction industry during the first year of implementation of the FairTax is expected to increase by more than 50 percent. The huge boom in this industry will be due largely to a significant rise in the demand for all investment goods. Dr. Jorgenson?s research shows....."

The Demand For New Homes Will Increase.....

Interest Rates Will Drop.....

Homeownership Under the FairTax Will Be More Affordable.....

Homebuilders? Compliance Costs Will Be Lower.....

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