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I spy...

By azul ·
Bush autherized spying on US citizens and is unapologetic.

While I admire the mans conviction and hard-headedness I have to wonder about the legality of it.

To the best of my knowledge, this is a new precedence.

If he can do this sort of thing, why do we need the patriot act? Does this not subvert the legislative process and the legal process?

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When I have more time. . . .

by maxwell edison In reply to I spy...

....perhaps I'll explain some things. But suffice it to say, you are SO FAR off with your assertions, including not knowing about what's really going on, and not knowing about the precedence that has been set, quite a number of times, including by President Clinton and President Carter.

Why not do some homework on the subject, and answer your own concerns?

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Phizer Act (sp?)

by beads In reply to When I have more time. . ...

I believe your eluding to the Phizer Act under Carter. Not sure about the spelling but thats the name that I recall being associated with this law. Though I believe there were a number of checks and balances put in place to keep the NSA from doing what it is now ordered to do (quasi-legally spy on Americans).

Most of the "Black Ops" types that I knew or know were quite happy having Phizer in place as it reduced the normal, albeit legitimate, concerns over what types of signal intelligence they were and were not allowed to partake.

Ahhh... more research.

- beads

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Hey Max, Shut up!

by azul In reply to When I have more time. . ...

I HAVE been reading. Admittedly I don't know much about Carter or Ford, so you got me there, but then if we were all experts in American history and government you wouldn't have much to do would you?

Seriously though, One of the reason I brought this conversation up here is because there is a far broader selection of ideas than I would otherwise be exposed to.

ALL "news" sources are biased, they all have their political/business connections and agendas and report the news accordingly. You are obviously older and more knowledgable American history and politics. Your input and everyone else at TR who cares to respond IS - part - of my homework. Asking other people for there thoughts, understanding their rationale and learning their sources is legitimate and enjoyable. From what I hope to learn here, I will be better able to find, understand and gleen the truth from what I find.

You could answer any question in this forum, on any topic, with "Why not do some homework on the subject, and answer your own concerns?" but then that kind of defeats one of the key purposes of a discussion forum doesn't it?

Either make a positive and legitimate contribution to the discussion or stay out of it.

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Well, I guess you told me

by maxwell edison In reply to Hey Max, Shut up!

Too bad I'm not impressed.

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Don't forget kidnapping citizens of other countries

by oldbag In reply to I spy...


There have been numerous cases where citizens of other contries have been abducted and sent to be tortured. This has occurred under the pretext of homeland security. An example of this problem is Maher Arrar who was taken into custody in the US but instead of being sent to Canada (where he is a naturalized citizen), he was sent to Syria and tortured there, held for over a year.

I have read many articles about clandestine CIA flights where others have been picked up and sent for 'interrogation' by states that have no regard for human rights.

I look forward to the day when Mr Bush will be out of office because his second term is up.

Please, during your next presidental election, find out how the candidates intend to approach homeland security, Quantanomo Bay and human rights.

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by Montgomery Gator In reply to Don't forget kidnapping c ...

I look forward to the day that Paul Martin and his his party are out of office in Canada and instead Canada has a PM like Brian Mulroney, who was a good man and true friend of the USA.

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You got your wish, now can we have ours?

by oldbag In reply to And...

Paul Martin resigned yesterday after losing the election to the Conservative Stephen Harper. Funny how us Canadians could not give him a clear majority and Mr. Harper nwo has to be very careful lest he lose a confidence vote in the House of Commons. Maybe, as a country we are too cautious when it comes to conservative attitudes.

Most of my freinds, family and aquantences want to see Mr. Bush gone. Please, please, please Americans, lose the man that most of the world considers as the most dangerous terrorist around.

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And hope

by jdclyde In reply to Don't forget kidnapping c ...

that the answer for the intended approach isn't "I have a plan"?

Funny, how you don't mind that there ARE states with no regard to human rights, just that non-americans were sent there?

Funny why we never hear anyone, UNCLUDING THE UN, about this any other time?

Sounds like someone is spending too much time at (and then will turn around and accuse someone of being a "RUSH" listener as an insult? Too funny)

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Well, duh!!! You bleeding hearts make me want to puke.

by sleepin'dawg In reply to I spy...

It must be nice to be dreaming in technicolor. All governments have spied on their citizens at one time or another, legally and illegally, overtly and covertly and will continue to do so far into the future. The bleeding heart liberals will beat their breasts and protest the erosion of personal or individual rights but will be secretly damn glad when another terrorist is caught and brought to justice because someone had the balls to take the necessary steps to abort their schemes.

You have probably heard the expression set a thief to catch a thief well look at it this way sometimes it is necessary to fight fire with fire. The terrorists don't play by the rules so why should we. Yes, if we get caught breaking the rules we will be punished for that but isn't it nice to know that you can sleep safe in your bed tonight because someone had the guts to bend or break the rules, to keep you safe. The main thing we have to guard against is the targeting of innocents. Someone once said it would be better for one hundred guilty men go free than to convict an innocent man. A noble sentiment. The other side of that coin is it would be best to jail one hundred innocent men so that millions can live free. In this day an age when three or four people have the potential to devastate cities like New York and London we cannot afford the luxury of always playing by the rules.

I make no secret of not being a fan of GWB. I don't happen to think he is the sharpest knife in the drawer and another might have been a better choice as President. That being said, thank God for George Walker Bush as President of the United States of America. Can you envision either Gore or Kerry taking the necessary steps in any effort to defend democracy. Sure he's made mistakes and will probably make more but his errors are ones of commission rather than ommission. He is defending America to the best of his abilities, limited as those may be and by extension he is defending the freedom and democracy of all other free nations. A hundred years from now history (hindsight) will judge whether or not he did the right thing but in the meantime bleeding heart liberals should step back and let him get on with the job.

Yes many innocents will have their toes stepped on but if they are truly innocent they will be freed. In the meantime the liberals should cool the rhetoric because all they achieve is encouragement of the enemy, who have no respect for our rules and laws and think they are a sign of weakness. Yes it would be nice if everyone played by the rules but they don't; so get over it. I would rather kill one innocent man than see one hundred terrorists running free, using our rules, our laws, against us. But know this, if its my rights and freedoms you try to step on I'll fight you tooth and nail to the end. You want rights and freedoms, then you better bloody well better fight for them with what ever means are necessary, even if a few innocent toes get stepped on in the process. You can not be saying, save my *** Mr. President, on the one hand and be saying, oh dear Mr. President, you are abusing our civil rights on the other. Not now and who knows when we will ever again be able to have the luxury of being able to do that with out giving aid and comfort to the enemy. "We have seen the enemy and he is us."Walt Kelly - Pogo

Dawg ]:)

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by nighthawk808 In reply to Well, duh!!! You bleeding ...

That's an incoherent post even by your low standards.

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