General discussion


I spy...

By azul ·
Bush autherized spying on US citizens and is unapologetic.

While I admire the mans conviction and hard-headedness I have to wonder about the legality of it.

To the best of my knowledge, this is a new precedence.

If he can do this sort of thing, why do we need the patriot act? Does this not subvert the legislative process and the legal process?

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Hard to understand

by jdclyde In reply to Wow.

if you don't want to listen to what someone says, isn't it?

Relax, and then read it again. There are some very valid points in there. You just have to be willing to be open to different ideas.

Don't let the tone distort the message for you.

I happen to think that like usual, he is dead on.

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Ol' Chickenheart, oops I meant Chickenhawk, is typical of those who.......

by sleepin'dawg In reply to Hard to understand

When in danger or in doubt,
Run in circles,
Scream and shout.
When the battle is over and done,
Hoist the signal up;
Well done.

The western democracies, primarily the US, are in a war to preserve our way of life. It is not a war of armies in uniform, marching to and fro, with the drums beating and the bands blaring and heros performing deeds of valour but rather its a war in the back alleys, sneak attacks by those we have permitted to come and live amongst us and whose weapons are booby traps and home made bombs.

They came to us primarily to escape the intolerance and persecution of the places they were living, to acquire freedom and prosperity and to become prosperous. If you walked down any street in the middle east or other third world nation, and talked to anyone you would find more than half dream of one day emmigrating to the west, again primarily, the US. Doubt my word??? Just take a drive along the US/Mexico border and actually see the numbers that try daily to gain entry, legally or illegally, to the US. Most come with ideas of gaining freedom and prosperity but unfortunately amongst them there are those who want to steal from us our freedoms and rights; to destroy our way of life; to take short cuts on the road to prosperity but worse than that, amongst them there are the fanatics of a religion set on the destuction of all other beliefs in an an attempt to submerge us under the rule of their religious laws; laws that are an anathema to our ways.

We lay out the welcome mat to these people and extend the protection of our laws, freedoms and civil rights to them but in place of any sense of gratitude they perceive us as weak and stupid, fit to be conquered and converted to their belief system. They want to destroy us and they are perfectly willing to use our rights and freedoms against us. Why should we permit this and why do we stand idly by and allow this to happen??? Why do we extend our rights and freedoms to this scum of humanity??? Aside from abusing our welfare and legal systems, they don't pay any taxes and are ungrateful for the opportunities and freedoms truly available to them. Why do we extend the rights and freedoms of our system which we have strived, fought and paid for to this scum which is out to destroy us??? Hmmmmm??? Well you can ask the bleeding heart liberals the answer to that but as for me, I say forget civil rights for these people; no trials, just put them on the first available boat, plane or train and send them back to where they came from. Many will be and are repeat offenders. Most are harmless but how do we sort out the harmless from the nefarious ones, seeking to do us harm. The only solution,as I see it, is to bend the law or suspend it. Note: I do not and will never say, eliminate it. Yes, the liberals will protest and beat their breasts but they will be protected despite their ignorance and stupidity. After all it's their right to be stupid and ignorant; isn't it???

We are at war with an unseen enemy. The enemy could be someone you work with, a neighbour, someone passing in the street. We don't and can't know or recognize who they are. So how do our leaders protect us??? If we were drowning, people like Ol' Chickenhawk would want to throw us an anchor.

The bottom line in any war is to win the damn thing and as anyone who has ever been to war can tell you, you use every means available to you to accomplish that end, even if you break some of the rules and regulations along the way. You will be held accountable, especially if you lose. Forget about all the pratting about the causes, either right or wrong, justified or unjustified, that has brought us to this. At this point they are useless. We can examine them later, if we win the war. If you are in a war you have to use anything and everything to win it. There is no second place and silver medals in war. It's either win or lose; survive or die. Chickenhawk should take a walk down to the lower west side of Manhattan and look into the pit. If he has a picture of the twin towers, so much the better. He would then be in a position to contemplate the enemy. The enemy was a tiny group of individuals that passed amongst us unknown. They were perfectly willing to sacrifice themselves for their cause. Four of these tiny groups passed through airport security unnoticed. Their aim or goal is/was the destruction not of the towers per se but the American way of life; the ideal of democracy. The towers weren't brought down by wrecking balls and demolition crews. They had already withstood one attack with explosives in 1993. What brought the Twin Towers down. Oh yes, you'll say planes flying into them but that just wasn't so. What brought the Towers down was the simple little box cutter, in the hands of self-destructive fanatics out to destroy the American way of life and by extension, democracy in the western world. Go to London and talk to the survivors of the bus bombings and ask them if they saw and recognized the enemy before the explosions went off. Have you ever noticed that all people of Mediterranean, Iranian,Pakistani or even Mexican origins appear similar when dressed like us??? How many are there out there who we pass daily in our normal routines??? Which one could be an enemy in disguise??? How can you tell and if perchance you could tell, what would you do about it??? Ever hear the taped conversation from the guy on Flight 93??? Would you be prepared to put your fat *** on the line like he and a few others tried to do??? Now that was a real American because he wasn't willing to give up without a fight but the saddest commentary was the discovery of many who remained strapped in their seats to be found amongst the wreakage. Chickenhawk would have probably been one of those. He would have gone to his death protesting the unfairness of the situation he was in but had been unwilling to stand up and fight. That is another enemy we are up against; Apathy!!! Sometimes our privacy and rights may get stepped on but as long as we and our way of life survives, I'll tolerate it. I won't like it but I will tolerate it and if we win this war, I will be alive and free to b1tch as loud as any of them about it. That is the name of the game, survival; survival of our way of life. Anything less, anything else, is not an acceptable option.

So Chickenhawk, how would you fight this enemy??? it is a war totally unlike any that has gone before. Any constructive ideas or are you going to live the rest of your cowardly existence moaning and puking about your rights being stepped on. Those who are not prepared to fight for their rights don't deserve them. Your way is the traitors way because it gives aid and comfort to the enemy. You are a waste of resources. You aren't prepared to put up with some temporary restrictions to help defeat the enemy. You are as much the enemy as those who attack us and in some ways worse. Someone once said that the tree of freedom rquired watering with some blood, from time to time. I think whoever it was, was right but it is a bit of a b1tch when it's your own blood. Well as long as I don't bleed to death, I'm willing to give a pint or two.

We have seen the enemy and he is us! Walt Kelly - Pogo

You've got to be thankful for George Bush. You don't have to like him and I don't but I do respect him because he is willing to take the necessary, if unpopular, steps to win this war. He has made mistakes and he will make others but he is set on winning it. So, yeah, I'll tolerate my privacy being invaded a bit as long as I'm going to be alive at the end to protest that invasion.

Dawg ]:)

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by jdclyde In reply to Ol' Chickenheart, oops I ...

I'm going to disagree with you.

Today isn't that day.

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LOL!!! It's not rocket science, it's just plain...............

by sleepin'dawg In reply to ONE OF THESE DAYS

old common sense mixed with a dash of bitter experience. BTW your well on the road to acquiring the latter and if you maintain a little patience and take some time to observe, you'll find the former comes as naturally as you demonstrated on your divorce thread. You just needed a nudge now and then to keep you from losing patience and running out to get yourself into more trouble. BTW I still get my *** into trouble because I sometimes forget to apply the former. Remember this line, "Life is a dream a little more coherent than most." I hope you enjoyed your Christmas with your boys and wish you a Happy and Prosperous New Year.

Dawg ]:)

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by sleepin'dawg In reply to I spy...
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There's a difference

by maxwell edison In reply to I spy...

There's a distinct difference between having an umbrella of security over our country, and denying citizens their individual rights and liberties. And just because we might attempt to maintain the former, it doesn't automatically mean we must suffer with the latter. That's what a lot of people are suggesting, but I vehemently disagree. As many of the regular and long-time TechRepublic members realize, maintaining (and in some cases, even restoring) American's individual liberty is not only one of my passions, but one of my life's missions. However, I'm also a realist; moreover, I'm not an absolutist. There's nothing that does more disservice to a debate than to have one with an absolutist who can't see reality, or at least apply it to reality.

Consider these things:

There are an estimated 15 million illegal aliens in the United States. I don't think they're all here for our baseball and apple pie. (And no, they're not all Mexicans.) An estimated 2,000 illegal aliens enter the United States every day. Our border security is a joke, and our immigration policies are disgusting. These things didn't happen overnight; it's been a culmination of failed policy for decades. Nor can it be fixed overnight, especially considering the politicization of the issue. (Round up all the illegals and deport them, if you ask me. But then their sympathizers will complain about THEIR rights. How stupid is that?)

There are people, both inside and outside of the United States, who are waging war against us. They don't want our territory; they don't want our resources; they don't want to change our system of government. They want us dead.

The "international community" (including the United Nation), has not only been ineffective in stopping terrorism, but in many ways complacent, and even in some ways, supportive of its growth. All one has to do is to see the stockpiles (yes, stockpiles) of French, German and Russian made weapons recently unearthed in Iraq. And these are post-19** weapons, which would make their presence proof that those nations violated the UN resolutions after Desert Storm, and are quasi-combatants against the United States of America. And I won't even mention the corruption of the oil-for-food program. And I wonder where the chemical weapons came from in that thwarted chemical-terrorist attack in Jordan a year ago? (I guess the inspectors missed those.) In short, the United Nations, in my eyes, falls just short of an enemy of the United States, ****-bent on the destruction of our way of life.

And now, let's ask the following:

Define spying on American citizens? What exactly is the United States government doing that has your panties in a bunch? And please be specific. Give me the whats, the whos, and the whys. If you're going to start a discussion like this, and make the charges, claims, and suggestions that you're making, perhaps you should be a little more specific on what is being done, why it's being done, and to whom it's being done.

And like I showed in a previous message, this is far from a new precedence. Perhaps you can specifically compare what's going on today to comparable situations in the past.

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You asked. . .

by maxwell edison In reply to I spy...

You asked, "Does this not subvert the legislative process and the legal process?"

No, it doesn't.

And another's opinion:

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Commander in Cheif

by mjd420nova In reply to I spy...

I served the US NAVY during VeitNam and feel that what ever the CIC can do to limit our
involvement in this country as far as terrorism
is concerned, it should be done. Whether behind
our backs or up front, GIT 'ER DONE. IF we can
surveil here and subvert these bad guys over there, DO IT. We, and I mean the american citizens have nothing to hide and nothing to fear
unless we really do have something to hide and don't want to get caught. I don't want to hear it. The government that has all the power to
give us all we want also has the power to take it away. Do you think that it FREE?? We must all pay the price for the freedoms we enjoy.
If these efforts had come forth prior to 9-11-01
the world would surely be different. If the
NSA, CIA, FBI had announced that they subverted
such a major event and it didn't happen, who'd
be mad then?? If you have nothing to hide,
then you are safe. If you have nasty plans to hide and don't want to get caught, GET OUT NOW.
PLEASE. I have no sympathy for those who wish
to do this country harm and my 44 Magnum
gaurantees that if you cross my path you will
indeed meet your maker, be it GOD, ALLAH, BUDDA,
or whow ever you serve, look out, as I am also
out to get you and will got to the ends of this earth to prevent any harm to me and my family.
Those who complain do protest too much and will
be investigated.

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the issue?

by jeasterlingtech In reply to I spy...

The main issue is a government agency charged with monitoring incoming phone calls from terrorist suspects actually listened to both sides of the conversation ...horror of horrors they might hear some pillow talk or the next planned bombing location
1. If a wire tap is placed by warrant they record all conversations (they don?t say record only conversations between this guy and that guy)
2. I would rather them know both sides of the phone call it proves both normal and nefarious intentions
3. Although we do treat all in our borders as citizens, should we?
4. Those receiving the calls inside the borders fall into 3 categories innocent, traitor, foreign combatant. Innocents don't care that they were spied upon only traitors, foreign combatants and of course outside agitators care
Guess what now that everybody knows this the bad guys will change tactics resorting to codes or encrypted email instead of easily monitored clear communication thanks a$$h0le that had to report this and I personally want to see treason charges leveled against the ?leaker?

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OH NO! Italy SPYING on citizens

by maxwell edison In reply to I spy...

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