General discussion


Iraq Aftermath

By TheChas ·
After seeing a blurb on CNN Headline News about Walter Cronkite's opinions about the war in Iraq, I just could not help myself.

Check out this article:

I quote from the article:

"worst policy decision this nation has ever made."

Walter Cronkite is perhaps the most trusted newsman to ever anchor the US evening news.
If he is so concerned about the Bush administrations Iraq policies, I believe it is time for anyone who still supports the actions taken to re-evaluate their position.

In foreign policy issues, we cannot afford to use the ends justify the means rebuttal that the Bush administration is attempting to use in the face of mounting world criticism.

Yes, Saddam is a ruthless person who terrorized his people to stay in power.
Under that justification, what country will we decide to invade next?

Bush is already focusing on deposing Fidel Castro's government in Cuba.

It is time for the US people to demand no new US aggression against foreign leaders without clear evidence of a imminent threat to the US or our allies.


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Who appointed you the police of the police?

by road-dog In reply to That's absurd !

While you're busy congratulating yourself on your "enlightened" restraint, do a little web surfing.

Several terrorist cells have been broken up in Great Britain and Germany. Bombings and assassinations occur in such world powers as Bali(well known for their constant meddling in Arab lands).

Should Iraq have been able to develop WMD, are you ready to let them get in the first punch in order to salvage your sense of fairness?

Like you said, this isn't 1953. Folks who believe that other folks don't have a right to live now have access to things that allow them to kill thousands.

Your logic is hopelessly skewed by your selective consideration of the facts.

If there are no police (don't even try to make a case for the UN) then someone has to fill the breach.

If you are any indication of the bravery of your countrymen, I feel sorry for your girlfriend. I guess you will see fit to become involved somewhere after the first rapist....

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To Road Dog

by Cactus Pete In reply to That's absurd !

Just a clarification-

Bali is part of Indonesia, a largely Islamic country. The attacked night club was a favorite for tourists, mostly Australians. Australia is a "western" nation in its base, and thus fits into a likely terrorist target.

Islam has grown to many of the Pacific Islands. In that respect, Australia would be rather coveted by those who would expand its influence even more. As well, Australia is probably even more 'evil' than the US with their relatively risque ways...

So, bombing a Bali club full of Aussies would be a great way to expell some of those evil tourists and get you cause mentioned all over the evil-doers' homeland.

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Getting tired

by Oz_Media In reply to That's absurd !

Of talking to you, you rarely have anything to say that is a relevant rebuttal but if you insist on being a nutbag,
"Should Iraq have been able to develop WMD, are you ready to let them get in the first punch in order to salvage your sense of fairness?"

>>The WMD was SPECULATION! Don't even go there, it's not a justified reason for war. Get over it, it's old news.

As for letting someone rape my girlfriens, does this mean that you feel any guy looking at your wife or girlfriend needs a beating? You sound like one of those really insecure guys that knows his partner would leave for a bigger .... at the first chance. Get a grip !

Yuo have the unvbelievable ability to either not understand a single word you read, take everything out of it's context or simply have zero intelligence and no comprehension of anything in your life.

I've had enough of your mental ramblings, later.

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WMD was speculation?

by road-dog In reply to That's absurd !

The Kurds of northern Iraq are marking the 15th anniversary of the chemical attack carried out by Iraqi Government forces on the town of Halabja, where at least 5,000 people, many of them women and children, died in a single day.


Once again you show up for a battle of with with an unloaded weapon...

Lest you dismiss this source as pawns of President Bush, Note that this is a BBC story, an news organization critical of Tony Blair's decision to join the US in the war in Iraq.

Of course one might make the case that Saddam destroyed his weapons afterward.

I guess that when he threw the UN weapons inspectors out of the country, he then said "I'm glad those guys are out of the way so I can get on with the business of destroying these weapons"

You don't know jack about Iraq, world politics, history, economics, business, or human nature. You argue baseless generalities that make it painfully obvious that your grip on reality is tenuous at best.

What's truly amazing about you us that you think you know a lot about the US and Americans, apparently moreso than native Americans! You couldn't be more wrong on so many things and yet you have this desire to repeatedly define what this country thinks, what makes it work, and why it does what it does.

I don't crush you again and again because we disagree. I disagree on friendly and intellectual terms with lots of other members. You on the other hand, are a sanctimonious blowhard who attempts to project every single personal shortcoming on anyone who disagrees with you.

You accuse Americans of many things that manifest themselves in your approach to the debate here, from condescension to name calling.

Why don't you post a link or two backing up some of your more outrageous claims made in this thread. I would make a sincere effort to look at them to better understand your views.

If you do not, then prepare to have your assertions picked apart and refuted. Even if you are so dense as to believe you are seen as rational here, rest assured that others here will recognize you for the monumental twit that I judge you to be...

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Another viwepoint

by Oz_Media In reply to That's absurd !

"The Kurds of northern Iraq are marking the 15th anniversary of the chemical attack carried out by Iraqi Government forces on the town of Halabja, where at least 5,000 people, many of them women and children, died in a single day."

Halabja and America are a LOOOOOOOONG way apart. This doesn't put Americans at risk of attack.

But that aside.
I have never said that SADDAM should NOT be removed from power. Nor have I said that I condone the repression and killing of Iraq's citizens. I do not condone BUSH's premature efforts at all. This war was started with improper planning and without proper support, this causing a messy and expensive attack that could cost America their furture as the World's Super Military Power.
(or the Worlds Main Defenders-WMD)

"First, the military plan took unnecessary risks, because it skimped on the forces made available to the commanders....Additional forces were available? they were even under orders to prepare for combat in Iraq. One more combat division, an additional force for securing the supply lines, more trucks and supply units to provide the redundancy that the inherent inefficiency of military operations requires?each would have reduced the risks. Some of the planners knew this; whether these forces would be used was the issue at the heart of the continuing tensions during the planning process. But they weren't deployed until it was too late."

"The second major criticism of the war plan?a profound flaw?concerned the endgame: it shortchanged postwar planning. Those who plan military operations for a war must take into account the aftermath. Four steps have to be considered: deployment; buildup; decisive combat; and postconflict operations. The destruction of enemy forces on the battlefield creates a necessary but not sufficient condition for victory."

"This brings us to the third major criticism of the government's plan: in attempting to retain full control, the administration raised the costs and risks of the mission by preventing our use of the very allies and resources that should have been available to the US. The Bush administration, thus far, has been unwilling to make use of the international legitimacy and support it could have from international institutions like the United Nations and NATO. Rather than gain leverage by means of international legitimacy, the United States, even through the long summer of 2003, refused to cede political authority to the UN or grant meaningful authority to any other international institution. Yet such legitimacy was critical if governments in Europe were to provide forces and resources to assist postwar efforts in Iraq"

Impact on Human Rights cooperation:

"The experience of Operation Iraqi Freedom will likewise weaken international cooperation on human rights issues.27 Support for such efforts depends on their being clearly separated from attempts to advance the unilateral interest or agenda of any particular state."

"...nations have an inherent right to defend themselves by force against military aggression is a bedrock principle of international law. Without this guarantee, no nation would accept the constraints of law. But "defense against aggression" must be clearly and narrowly defined, least nations simply recast offensive acts as "defensive" ones -- a persistent problem ever since international covenants and treaties (such as the 1928 Kellogg-Briand pact) began weighing generally against "aggressive war"."

"With regard to the recent concerns about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, Webster's (US Secretary of State Daniel Webster -1837) criteria would have allowed pre-emptive action:

>if Iraq was known to have the capability and inclination to attack,

>if Iraqi policy toward the United States or its allies had evinced a growing bellicosity,

>if Iraqi preparations for an attack were clearly underway, and

>if there were good reasons to believe that deterrence would not hold. "

"Although the United States has enjoyed a good decade of growth relative to other nations, the long-term trend favors a slow decline in America's relative position.

Twenty years from now several countries are likely to be able to give the United States a good run for its money -- on a regional basis, at least. This outcome is not preordained, however. It depends on a convergence of capacity and motive. A broader, more energetic exercise of US military power may provide the latter. "

I'm not the only one questioning BUSH's motives and calling him an idiot for leading American citizens to their deaths.

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pushing beliefs etc.

by john_wills In reply to Why should a single count ...

I fear that neither Nazi Germany nor the U.S. is the only one invading other states to push beliefs etc. on them. In 1948 the newly founded Israeli state burst the borders the UN had assigned to it, and expelled thousands of people from the assigned and the conquered territories. In 1952 - I think - North Korea invaded South Korea. In 1954 China invaded and conquered Tibet. In 1956 North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam, the USSR invaded Hungary and a Franco-British-Israeli coalition invaded Egypt to attempt to impose state-sponsored capitalism regarding the Suez Canal. And this last shows where the US can do some good: it was at US insistence that the aggressors withdrew from Egypt and, after some fuss, the Israelis even withdrew from the Gaza Strip. Now if the US were to be a policeman first by its own example it would have less invasion to do and more support when it did it. The US could refuse to export arms to undemocratic governments - which does not mean that Iran, say, would be entitled to buy weapons, just that Sa'udi Arabia and such wouldn't even be considered. It could insist that the Israelis stop stealing private property and return to its owners what they have stolen since their state's foundation. It could insist that all its allies and client states submit to ICJ jurisdiction - starting with the US itself. The US has great power for good, but a lot of it is wasted. The beliefs to push are democracy and personal freedom. But Iraq, which could have had an election six weeks after the conquest, still hasn't had one, and only now is the US allowing enough UN troops into Afghanistan to protect the organization of elections.

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Oz - you are something

by JimHM In reply to Gee you're kidding?

WGjr - he isn't a Jr... and from what it appears he isn't worried about his re-election camp yet... He is worried about the American Economy and the Iraq war - are his two big ones...

Oh did you notice - American DOW up 120 point from yesterday ... Pretty dam good for someone that doesn't know about economics... hum..

I don't know how you all know so much more about our american president than most americans... hum must have an insiders track up there in the North.. I guess nothing else to do when you get "SNOWED" ... in

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Delusion or Jest ?

by Oz_Media In reply to Oz - you are something

"...he isn't worried about his re-election camp yet... He is worried about the American Economy and the Iraq war - are his two big ones..."

Uh....sure. You're not really serious are you?

Your knowledge of Canada is uncanny!
"I guess nothing else to do when you get "SNOWED" ... in"

I think we got less than 3" of snow last year that lasted about a week. In contrast, England got more snow than Vancouver last year.

Today, the middle of Ovtober, it's chillier at about

The year before, I don't think we had ANY snow. Th moutains closed early and spring skiing was a no show. So besides the fact that we don't get the snow that scared you out of Newfoundland, I can't help you. You do realize that Newfies are Canadian Polaks right? (In the sense of the jokes, not the race).

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Iraqi Deserters or Patriots?

It's probably worth pointing out that immediately after George Bush had those people armed, trained and paid with US dollars - many (if not most) of them have returned to their former lives.

Since the US is currently waging a war against that country - it's probably not too bright of them to pay, train and arm their enemies.

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Isn't it funny how things seem to go round in

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to Iraq Aftermath

Circles. It was on something like thsi that I asked my first ever question and got ragged on by everyone.

I just can't get over how much things have changed in such a short time.

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