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  • #2296828

    Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

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    by maxwell edison ·

    Excerpts from the story:

    “What Iraq looks like on TV, and what Iraq is like for the 130,000 troops living here, sometimes feels like two different realities.”

    “Our stories aren’t the sexiest,” says the 432nd Civil Affairs Brigade commander, Gary Beard. “But what we do will build the success of this country.”

    “Welcome, welcome to our school,” chants a line of 7-year-old girls in Arabic at the Abu Ghuraib Primary School, which the 490th Civil Affairs Battalion took under its wing to restore after it was badly looted postwar.

    The now-bright-blue school has new equipment and new electrical wiring that feeds bright bulbs by the teachers’ blackboards.

    As each soldier walks through the entrance to the official ribbon-cutting, the girls chant louder in Arabic, “Thank you, thank you, thank you.”

    Inside, headmistress Ibistam Mahdi cuts a yellow ribbon, and thanks the men through a translator.

    “For the 350 girls here, it is a lot better,” Mahdi says.

    “I go out every day,” says 432nd Civil Affairs Battalion Sgt. Bill Belongea. “I have not had to raise my weapon yet. It’s not as bad as the media portrays it.”

    “We’ve got a lot of good things going on, but when I went home (on leave), people were just like ‘We never hear that stuff,’ ” said Civil Affairs Pvt. Amy Schroeder. “That’s what makes the families worry.”

    ———> End of excerpts

    Link:

    http://www.knoxstudio.com/shns/story.cfm?pk=IRAQ-REALITY-12-05-03&cat=II

    Tiny Link:

    http://tinyurl.com/yhgs

    ———> End of links

    In the end, the naysayers will eventually have to admit the success of operation Iraqi Freedom.

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    • #2684678

      First naysayer I suppose?

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

      I assume you are referring to me as one of the “naysayers”.

      You have posted similar positive information to prove that Iraq is being liberated with the intent that those who opposed the war will be red faced at the result.

      The need for Liberation in Iraq I don’t think has EVER been questioned. There was also no doubt that eventually this would be achieved, I have never myself said that Saddam should be left in power. My opposition is to the way that the war was justified by misleading the public and then turned around by misleading the public once again as the whole focus was was never on WMD but Liberation, sorry but that was TB’s approach not GWB’s.

      I still stand firm that GWB was wrong in the way he approached this war and I am dumbfounded that so many Americans would still support him after he has been shown as deceptive.

      I don’t think I’ve ever doubted that eventually Liberation would be achieved, I still think it is FAR from over yet and the repercussions against the USA will be unfounded in world history to date, I’d say you all have a VERY big kick in the pants coming, whether from Saddam’s regime or the Taliban who are said to be already reforming and planning revenge on the USA.

      What I don’t see taht is said in this story is that Americans are shown the bad side of the war. From what has been reported on US news stations in Canada has been all prety pictures and flag waving victory speeches. I haven’t seen hard reality on US TV stations as it is implied, granted I only get maybe 7 or 8 US stations, other than cable networks that seem to be MOSTLY US channels.

      Not to detract too much from the hard work on the rebuilt school but when you invade a country, bomb it’s buildings and shut down its infrastructure, would you not expect to hear praise (especially from previously frightened children)when thier life is once again restored and these children can once again attend school with thier friends? It will make them feel as if all is well again.

      Now as I said, I don’t want to detract from the hard work these soldiers have been putting in to rebuilding this country, they are needed there, they are wanted there, they also helped to destroy what was not already in ruin but have accepted the responsibility for rebuilding the destruction as any army would.

      This doesn’t detract from the original problem with the war it merely clouds the past to view the future sunshine. We all knew there would be a calm AFTER the storm as opposed to before it.

      I just think that it is sad that it was started in the way it was and prematurely executed against allied wishes, this is like saying F-O to your friends if they won’t support you jumping a guy who is hassling his girlfriend.

      Nobody can say if this would have been more successful with greater allied assistance and noone can say it wouldn’t it wasn’t an option in the Presidents mind so we can only speculate.

      Past objectives have proven the success of using an allied force for invasion and liberation in those specific cases though, I think it should have been persued farther.

      I don’t know who your intended group of naysayers were,I just assume I was one of them but I don’t think anyone really feels that this country would not be better off in the long run, just the way it was approached aand the way the President of the United States manipulated the media and his audience by fear to supoprt his intentions.

      This also has no bearing as to the meaning of this war NOT being to control Iraqi oil, as that is the entire underlying problem with the sanction breaches to begin with. It was the Oil-for-food program that brought all of this into our lives not the poor repressed Iraqis.

      There are other repressive dictators and downtrodden people that have been ignored for much longer than this, why?

      • #2673191

        Ozz – your kidding -where are all the negative GWB comments –

        by jimhm ·

        In reply to First naysayer I suppose?

        Ozz – it was expected – you can’t make a blind man see – or a deaf man hear… you are both.. We will never agree – on most of your posts …

        • #2673167

          Reply To: Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Ozz – your kidding -where are all the negative GWB comments –

          “you can’t make a blind man see – or a deaf man hear… you are both”

          Thanks for the sentiment Jim, having such a great day, that helps me no end.

          I have pointed out in detail and in the Report to Congress how GWB has mislead to everyone and clouded the real reasons for war, if you are denying it, read again, I didn’t write it I just dug up the facts.

          How do you then derive that I am blind and deaf? I am willing to look at ALL angles, you are simplified to a single belief that you will supoprt him no matter what, right or wrong, THAT my friend is being blind and deaf to information.

          I know quite well all the bullshit you have been fed and you admittedly but it, whether you agree or not. You have said yourself that it is your duty to obey and support Bush regardless of his actions or intent, he’s not your field commander he is a freakin politician, man, Canadian politicians would KILL for believers like you.

          How does that make ME blind?

          At least THINK a little before you go flaming me without reason or a leg to stand on Jim, I’ve been the one who has always tried to see THROUGH his BS and get the real story, YOU are the one who has admitted to simply supporting him no matter what, again, how does that make ME blind?!? Absolutely NO sense whatsoever Jim, NONE.

        • #2673126

          As FogHorn Leg would say – “that was a joke son”

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to Reply To: Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

          As one of my favorite toons would say – “That was a joke son”… no flame..

        • #2673123

          Well

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to As FogHorn Leg would say – “that was a joke son”

          You better listen up boy, you might learn somethin’, I say you better listen up boy…

    • #2684673

      Side comment

      by thechas ·

      In reply to Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

      Max,

      I find it interesting that the soldiers from my area that were home for Thanksgiving had a significantly more pessimistic view of the situation in Iraq than the US national media does.

      Now, this could be selective interviewing by the local press.
      Still, not one soldier interviewed thought that things are going well in Iraq.

      I suspect that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

      Yes, there are successes and improvements. But, I doubt that they are as widespread as the military (and the Bush Administration) would like us to believe.

      Yes, there is dissent among some sectors of the Iraqi population.
      It is less prevalent than the press would have us believe. But, is much more prevalent than the administration cares to admit.

      Chas

      • #2684666

        My guess is 10% – 90% (Both ways)

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to Side comment

        I would guess that 90% of what’s going on in Iraq is good, while 10% is bad. However, I would further guess that 90% of what’s being reported is bad, while only 10% of the coverage is telling the good.

        • #2684656

          Half way

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to My guess is 10% – 90% (Both ways)

          Ok Max, I’ll meet you half ay here. I agree whollt with the first 90% – 10% regarding the actual events in Iraq.

          I’m not sure about the media showing bad and no good. I really feel it is the other way around.

          From what I’ve read, heard and seen in the media (including TR, magazines, local junk rags, TV reports and local news)is that the media is making everything look quite pretty as always.

          That has also been one of my arguments about wartime censorship, although not as restrictive as in WWI or Vietnam, there is still a lot of pretty pictures and successes shown whereas the dead and destroyed are quite well hidden from public view, perhaps even moreso in the US than other counties.

          Now if your relating to the other side of the “anti-war” media that is always just talking of atrocities and injustice with no good news or positive messages to share, this is definitely the 90-10 you had mentioned.

          The thing I feel many do is follow only one source or a source from only one country/continent. This would obviously create a bias whether for or against the actions.

          I know that you like to view many sides although you do have a bias toward Republican reports especially when they oppose another ‘untrusted’ source. You know I do the exact same thing on the other side side.

          Many people don’t see both sides or contrary facts, they haven’t had conversations that entail the depth and fact finding that TR discussion often do. They will generally buy into a single news source or find themselves just being like minded with friends with no real idea as to why, (here we go again) “like sheep”.
          ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

          So here’s another rare occasion where we agree or at least see some common ground, perhaps there’s hope for us yet.

          I really do try to make an effort to see your pont of view, but as we’ve both said before there are good days and there are days where I’d like to eat people, unfortunatly we often gently tap each others sarcasm buttons a bit and see who will bite hardest first.

          I’m sure everyone’s getting tired of us by now anyhow!

          Oz

    • #2673324

      Logistics …

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

      I was actually considering starting a discussion titled: “Report from Iraq,” the theme being that with an area of 170,000 square miles, a population of more than 20 million people, and (from your report) 130,000 occupation troops, how logistically impossible it would be to get a balanced view of what is happening in all of Iraq.

      However many reporters there may be in Iraq, each would only get to see small areas, and overall most of the country would receive no covereage whatsoever.

      In such a huge and diverse area, reporters would be looking for “a story.” Whether it was a nice story or a nasty story would largely depend on where the reporter would happen to be at any given time. Similarly which individual troops, or individual Iraqis might be interviewed, would be on a very random basis.

      By the nature of the “beast,” I doubt that indivual reporters would be specifically looking for nasty stories. A common term in journalism is “human interest stories,” meaning mainly stories about simple events in the lives of ordinary people, as a diversion from the general negativity of actual news events. [Similar to the one you have used as a basis for this discussion].

      I would therefore suggest that bias in the media would come from management level. Perhaps some radical media might issue an order: “Make Bush look bad — make it look as bloody as possible.”

      Currently I can’t see what advantage any mass media would have in focusing mainly on negative reports, unless that is what they thought would appeal most to their viewers (readers).

      I am quite convinced that the public in general prefer to see violence, because it gives them an adrenalin rush.

      This being said, I would hope very much that the media presentation is biased towards the negative, because this would indicate that the reality is far more positive.

      • #2673221

        Regarding public prefer to see violence…

        by tr_member ·

        In reply to Logistics …

        …not so in my case 🙂

        In my younger days could watch all that stuff…but as age mellows me, I can barely stand tragedies, car accidents, school shootings, kidnappings….VIOLENCE.

        I watch the news part of it, and am not gung-ho about the analysis part of the violence. I will not be glued to the TV entire day watching some poor people being bombed. Come to think of it, I would not like to see some rich people being killed either.

        That is when food network or home-garden TV kicks in :-))))

        • #2673140

          You are not alone ….

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Regarding public prefer to see violence…

          For many months now I have regularly been encountering people of all ages and persuations who have simply stopped watching the news, because it is all so unpleasant.

      • #2673220

        Nice response

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Logistics …

        One point that I find hard to swallow.

        ‘Perhaps some radical media might issue an order: “Make Bush look bad — make it look as bloody as possible.”‘

        I find this hard to believe. The reporters aer all complaining of censorship. Pictures must be reviewed or at least coincide with White House guidelines. They won’t allow any pictures of injured soldiers, unless carefully angled to reduce the impact. They also won’t permit any pictures of deformed casualties, for example someone with a leg bent backwards on an obscure angle or half an arm. Unless they are in hospital and getting treatment, then it is shown to depict how America is taking care of casualties.

        This is all straiht from MANY reportres mouths, the editors are under strict scrutiny of all reports and pictures shown in America and do NOT get to show th ugly side.

        Therefore I find it hard to believe that someone left or right would be able to show ANYTHING that makes “Bush look bad…”

        What we do see is the pretty side, if that’s not pretty enough, imagine the uncensored/bad side. Perhaps more support for my POST regarding media censorship that beutifies the war. If people don’t like what IS allowed after censorship, how well would they support the effort if they saw the UNCENSORED pictures?

        THey showed MANY shots on Canadian TV theat were disallowed by the White House.

        One was a picture of a soldier who took shrapnel to the abdomen. The picture in Canadian press showed him being carried by four or five soldiers by his right arm and leg as he hdangled to the ground with his left leg and arm dragging in the dirt with a nasty wound to his abdomen.

        The picture shown in the US had his body cut out completely and a close up of his face BEFORE he was hit. The caption was something to the effect that the US was taking good care of the LIMITED casualities asnd that this was one of the injured.

        They made NO mention that he died from his wounds later that day.

        I think what we are seeing IS the good side.

        • #2673141

          Just a hypothetical suggestion ….

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Nice response

          as I have no idea what is being seen on American TV. I was responding to the many complaints on this website of the media emphasising the negative aspects of the war. This also puzzles me in view of your comment that ALL reporters are complaining of censorship.

          Which begs another question: from whence arise the complaints of negative bias in the media if it is, as you say, so rigidly censored?

        • #2673124

          Hope this helps.

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Just a hypothetical suggestion ….

          Lets see if I can do this again,

          First of all, the pretty US pictures.

          All the pictures shown on the US new I’veseen and attached to links posted here from US sources have shown nothing.
          -A clown holding a turkey
          -A soldiers face taken BEFORE he was hit by shrapnel (he died of his wounds that night)
          -Iraqi’s waving and cheering as the US enters Baghdad

          In Canadian, British and AlJazeera news
          -A clown holding a turkey (and a partidge in a pear treeeeeeeeeee!)
          -A screaming and VERY bloody soldier being dragged through the dirt to safety after being hit by shrapnel.( he died of his wounds that night)
          -‘Stubby’ the boy in pain after losing his limbs
          -all of the pretty “YAY war” pictures too

          MANY reporters (I don’t think I said ALL but if I did, I stand corrected) complaining that they are heavily censored by the US media as EVERYTHING must be okayed by the White House. I mentioned one reporter who’s editor refused to publish pictures of stubby unless he was smiling.
          the White House is watching the reports carefully, gee that’s GWB’s house too isn’t it?

          >>NBC fires reporter over remarks
          http://tinyurl.com/yosq
          >>Al-Jazeera wins anti-censorship award
          http://tinyurl.com/xrvc
          >>Award winning journalist sacked for appearing on Iraqi television
          http://tinyurl.com/yotc
          >>White House dictates war coverage to a pliant media
          “Over recent days, photographs and footage of captured and killed United States soldiers have been seen by millions of people around the world, but not published by the major American newspapers or broadcast by TV networks. The blackout imposed on the American public, at the direct behest of the Bush administration, has highlighted two fundamental developments.”
          http://tinyurl.com/yotr
          >>Regional press chief in war censorship row
          http://tinyurl.com/youh
          I’ve seen several sides of the news, AlJazeera, BBC News, CBC News and the ever popular Fox & CNN reports as well as NBC, ABC, CBS etc. as fro written enws, I don’t read Us newspapers but the links posted here, the articles posted here from US sources all have a pretty header inset.

          Hope this help you see what angle I’m seeing and why I disbelieve that americans see only the bad side. If that’s BAD I wonder how they would react to the actual BAD side.
          Oz

    • #2673292

      How do you measure success?

      by lesdabney67 ·

      In reply to Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

      Surely you aren’t saying that because you read one article about a school doing well that the rest of the occupation is going well.

      The “mass media” is owned by large corporations. The “reporting” they do is heavily controlled by their owners.

      If this country decends into a civil war will that be a success too?

      • #2673276

        What is success?

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to How do you measure success?

        Success is the steady advancement towards a desired goal or a desired end.

        Now that’s not to say that there couldn’t be, nor wouldn’t be, setbacks from time-to-time, obstacles, if you will. But more “forward” steps than “backwards” steps would constitute such a steady advancement.

        Would a fall into a civil war also be success? Well, since that’s not the desired end, and if that “civil war” prevented the desired end, then no, it would not be a success, but rather derail the intended goal.

        • #2673251

          From the naysayers.

          by lesdabney67 ·

          In reply to What is success?

          There have been far more setbacks than successes in Iraq so far. A story or two about schools being available hardly washes away the other abysmal failures of this administration’s policies in Iraq.

        • #2673219

          But it’s more than 2 schools – it’s over 1,500 – AND more

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to From the naysayers.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…the first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has graduated and is on active duty?

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow citizens.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…nearly all of Iraq?s 400 courts are functioning.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518 megawatts?exceeding the pre-war average.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and secondary schools.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1, by October 1, Coalition forces had rehabbed over 1,500 schools – 500 more than their target.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…doctors? salaries are at least eight times what they were under Saddam.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccination doses to Iraq?s children.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq’s 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked canals. They now irrigate tens of thousands of farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and women.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…we have restored over three-quarters of pre-war telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable water production.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… there are 4,900 full-service connections. We expect 50,000 by January first.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major cities and towns. Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…95 percent of all pre-war bank customers have service and first-time customers are opening accounts daily.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…the central bank is fully independent.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… Iraq has one of the world?s most growth-oriented investment and banking laws.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… Iraq (has) a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…satellite dishes are legal.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…foreign journalists aren’t on 10-day visas paying mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for ?minders? and other government spies.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… there is no Ministry of Information.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…there are more than 170 newspapers.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… foreign journalists and everyone else are free to come and go.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…a nation that had not one single element?legislative, judicial or executive– of a representative government, does.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…in Baghdad alone residents have selected 88 advisory councils. Baghdad?s first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the city council elected its new chairman.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business, school and professional organizations are electing their leaders all over the country.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in Iraq?s history, run the day-to-day business of government.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…the Iraqi government regularly participates in international events. Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs today announced that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren’t.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of (a) strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…Uday and Queasy are dead – and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to his zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing Iraq’s soccer players for losing games…murdering critics.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…children aren’t imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with the government.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…political opponents aren’t imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…Saudis will hold municipal elections.*

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.*

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.*

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian — a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and for peace.* ~ * VP Cheney, 10/17

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…he has not faltered or failed.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1…Saddam is gone.

          Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… Iraq is free.

          ———- And another thought ———-

          Q: You will not deny the use of force is only the last resort?

          A: “I not only deny it, I denounce it as a mischevious, dangerous cliche. Force should be resorted to when the absence of force does not affect an imperative national objective and should always be used when less force guards against the use of more force at a later time. A lesser force used against Hitler in 1937 would have prevented the need for a greater force used against him beginning in 1941. The difference between the two modes of force is measured by about 45 million lives.”

          -William F. Buckley Jr.

        • #2673214

          Fair enough

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to But it’s more than 2 schools – it’s over 1,500 – AND more

          I DO believe that BUSH has turned the tables finally and is starting to work toward the freedoms fo the Irqi people and the government, this is commendable.

          You started each sentence with “Since President Bush…” which really bothers me though because it make HIM the hero and not those who accomplished these missions. HE must have been so busy, it’s amazing he found ten minutes for his Thanksgiving photo op!

          PResident BUSH, in my eyes, deserves NO credit whatsoever, he started a war prematurely and aginst allied wishes.

          By the seat of his pants, he managed to at least start to rebuild Iraq. This doesn’t make Bush a hero, it makes him extremely lucky, this could have been MUCH worse than it is now and he would have NO support to help th efforts.

          It’s like a little kid jumping off ramps with his bike, no matter what his parents say, he will still do it and then justify it by saying “see, I’m fine, I didn’t get hurt” this doesn’t mean he was right all along, just that he’s lucky he hasn’t hurt himself yet.

          Bush as always will come out of this smeling of roses, his ability to control the Republican fed media is uncanny and unsurpassed by any country. His ability to have American citizens forget his actions and only see the pretty side is also unsurpassed by other countries. No matter what he does, right or wrong he is America’s hero.

          Other countries wouldn’t see this in thier leaders, they tend to remember poilitical mistakes and misleading BS from thier leaders, whereas Bush is almost a holy figure in the USA.

          I say, praise the soldiers who were wrongfully forced to risk thier lives. Nail your holy figure to the cross and see if he comes back in a few years. If so, I’LL VOTE FOR HIM TOO!

        • #2673202

          Maybe you should..

          by lesdabney67 ·

          In reply to But it’s more than 2 schools – it’s over 1,500 – AND more

          go and do a little more research on the success of some of these things you listed here. Just from the top of the list I will point out that 1/3 of the soldiers of the new Iraqi Army have already deserted. Some of these 1500 schools you say have been opened or repaired at essentially unusable because of the work done in them.

          The rest of your statements deserve more scrutiny too but I don’t have the time to go into all of them. They are mostly propaganda.

        • #2673180

          A little rain for your parade…

          by lesdabney67 ·

          In reply to But it’s more than 2 schools – it’s over 1,500 – AND more

          http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031210/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_new_army_1

          Pentagon: Many of New Iraq Soldiers Quit

          WASHINGTON – Plans to deploy the first battalion of Iraq (news – web sites)’s new army are in doubt because a third of the soldiers trained by the U.S.-led occupation authority have quit, defense officials said Wednesday.
          Touted as a key to Iraq’s future, the 700-man battalion lost some 250 men over recent weeks as they were preparing to begin operations this month, Pentagon (news – web sites) officials said.

        • #2673165

          What a relief!

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to A little rain for your parade…

          .
          For a minute there, I thought you were going to say that:

          There aren’t 160,000 Iraqis now providing security to their fellow citizens.

          That all of Iraq?s 400 courts aren’t really functioning.

          That the Iraqi judiciary is not really fully independent.

          That power generation didn’t really hit 4,518 megawatts?exceeding the pre-war average.

          That all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges aren’t really open, as are nearly all primary and secondary schools.

          That Coalition forces had not really rehabbed over 1,500 schools – 500 more than their target.

          That teachers really don’t earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.

          That all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are not really pen.

          That doctors? salaries are not really at least eight times what they were under Saddam.

          That pharmaceutical distribution has not really gone from essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.

          That the Coalition has not really helped administer over 22 million vaccination doses to Iraq?s children.

          That a Coalition program has not really cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq’s 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked canals.

          And that those canals don’t irrigate tens of thousands of farms.

          And that this project has not really created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and women.

          That we have not restored over three-quarters of pre-war telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable water production.

          That there are not 4,900 full-service connections, and that we don’t really expect 50,000 by January first.

          That the wheels of commerce are not really turning.

          That bicycles to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are not coming to life in all major cities and towns.

          That 95 percent of all pre-war bank customers have not had service and first-time customers are opening accounts daily.

          That Iraqi banks are not making loans to finance businesses.

          That the central bank is not really fully independent.

          That Iraq does not have one of the world?s most growth-oriented investment and banking laws.

          That Iraq does not have a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.

          That satellite dishes are really illegal.

          That foreign journalists really are on 10-day visas paying mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for ?minders? and other government spies.

          That there really is a Ministry of Information.

          That there are not more than 170 newspapers.

          That you can’t buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.

          That foreign journalists and everyone else are not free to come and go.

          That a nation that had not one single element?legislative, judicial or executive– of a representative government, still does not.

          That in Baghdad alone residents have not selected 88 advisory councils.

          That Baghdad did not see its first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the city council elected its new chairman.

          That today, in Iraq chambers of commerce, business, school and professional organizations are not electing their leaders all over the country.

          That 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in Iraq?s history, do not run the day-to-day business of government.

          That the Iraqi government does not regularly participate in international events.

          That the Iraqi government has not been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and the Islamic Conference Summit.

          That the Ministry of Foreign Affairs did not announce that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.

          hat Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, still are.

          That for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites are not celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.

          That the Coalition has not completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of (a) strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

          That Uday and Queasy are not really dead – and they still feed innocent Iraqis to his zoo lions, they still rape the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, and they still torture Iraq’s soccer players for losing games and they are still murdering critics.

          That children are still imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with the government.

          That political opponents still are imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

          That millions of longsuffering Iraqis still live in perpetual terror.

          That Saudis will not really hold municipal elections.

          That Qatar is not reforming education to give more choices to parents.

          That Jordan is not accelerating market economic reforms.

          That the Nobel Peace Prize was not really awarded for the first time to an Iranian — a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and for peace.

          That Saddam Hussein is really still in power..

          That Iraq is not free.

          —————-

          Whew, for a minute there, I thought you were going to say all those things. But, no, those things really ARE true.

          But instead you ONLY said that one battalion lost around 250 men (out of over 160,000 in the entire security force) because they quit their job over, what is thought to be, a pay squabble.

          What a relief.

        • #2673160

          Is this the justification then?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to What a relief!

          This is all fine and dandy, American soldiers can actually help people.

          What is the point behind the mesage though?

          Is this now the justification for the war?

          Is it just your way of showing that the invasion was NECCESSARY (which nobody contested)?

          This holds no meaning as to WHY GWB jumped the gun and why most likely more US troops were killed unneccessarily. I don’t think there’s a person here who didn’t agree that Saddam must go and nobody thinks that the city would not be better off him in the long run.

          The topic is 100% pointless. I get Fox at home.

          GWB still F-d up BIG time, he mislead people that placed thier trust and thier lives in his hands, fixing a few schools won’t detract from thet, actualy it will but it shouldn’t.

          It would be nice to see you address the topic you have supported all along instead of the daily “Happy News from Iraq”, that is on my TV all day all smiles, shit and giggles about how wonderful it all is now.

          Lets address the fact of the decepyive clown that killed your neighbours unjustly instead.

          Defend GWB’s accusations of WMD, then his later turning it into a war for liberation. Defend GWB’s reason for the URGENCY behind this war that couldn’t have waited while other allies confirmed his allegations.

          If he had waited, he’d never have his oil, bottom line. He wouldn’t be smiling with the turkey for the papers (I know it wasn’t a plastic turkey because it hadn’t shaved, a plastic turkey would have been clean shaven). He would have been laughed at for scaring the US into fearing attack and the US citizens MAY have wondered why.

          This way, shoot first ask questions and look for validation later, seems to be much more acceptable by the US citizens.

        • #2673157

          So sad.

          by lesdabney67 ·

          In reply to What a relief!

          The information you are posting may or may not be accurate. I have cited two examples that shed a different light on the plethora of propaganda you are submitting here. It casts a long shadow over the rest of your data.

          Do us and yourself a favor and put your talking points memo down and go actually read about these topics.

        • #2673218

          What is success?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to From the naysayers.

          Success is also defined as: the progressive relization of a worthwhile dream.

          VERY similar to your statement but a completely different meaning.

          Going on the above definition, is this war a realization of a worthwhile dream?

          Perhaps for some Iraqi’s it’s been a worthwhile dream, but what is the ‘worthwhile dream’ behind America’s interaction? Ridding WMD wouldn’t be a dream as it is a neccessity in order to protect oneself, but that is irrelevant as we all know now anyway, no WMD.

          Perhaps it IS a success in that the US oil conglomerates are closer to realizing THIER worthwhile dream.

          War cannot be in ANYWAY seen as successful, win or lose. I can see a form of success in the rebuilding of Iraq. Once the city is destroyed due to war, rebuilding it is definitely a worthwhile dream! If they are progressively rebuilding the city, then YES that is success for the Iraqi people. I don’t think the aftermath of a war can be considered a real success though, it’s more of a neccessity.

        • #2673217

          You’re wrong . . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to From the naysayers.

          – There have been more successes than setbacks.

        • #2673215

          A soldier’s perspective

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to From the naysayers.

          OPEN LETTER TO FIRST LUTHERAN CHURCH OF RICHMOND BEACH

          It has been a while since I have written to my friends at First Lutheran Church about what’s really going on here in Iraq. The news you watch on TV is exaggerated, sensationalized and selective. Good news doesn’t sell.

          The stuff you don’t hear about on CNN?

          Let’s start with Electrical Power production in Iraq. The day after the war was declared over, there was nearly 0 power being generated in Iraq. 45 days later, in a partnership between the Army, the Iraqi people and some private companies, there are now 3200 mega watts (Mw) of power being produced daily, 1/3 of the total national potential of 8000 Mw. Downed power lines (big stuff, 400 Kilovolt (Kv) and 132 Kv) are being repaired and are about 70% complete.

          Then there is water purification. In central Iraq between Baghdad and Mosul, home of the 4th Infantry division, water treatment was spotty at best. The facilities existed, but the controls were never implemented. Simple chemicals like Chlorine for purification and Alum (Aluminum Sulfate) for sediment settling (the Tigris River is about as clear as the Mississippi River) were in very short supply or not used at all. When chlorine was used, it was metered by the scientific method of guessing. So some people got pool water to drink and some people got water with lots of little things floating around in it. We are slowly but surely solving that. Contracts for repairs to facilities that are only 50% or less operational are being let, chemicals are being delivered, although we don’t have the metering problem solved yet (…but again, it’s only been 45 days).

          How about oil and fuel? Well the war was all about oil wasn’t it? You bet it was. It was all about oil for the Iraqi people! They have no other income, they produce nothing else. Oil is 95% of the Iraqi GNP. For this nation to survive, it MUST sell oil. The Refinery at Bayji is at 75% of capacity producing gasoline. The crude pipeline between Kirkuk (Oil Central) and Bayji will be repaired by tomorrow (2 June). LPG, what all Iraqi’s use to cook and heat with, is at 103% of normal production and WE, the US ARMY, are insuring it is being distributed FAIRLY to ALL Iraqi’s.

          You have to remember that only 3 months ago, ALL these things were used by the Saddam regime as weapons against the population to keep them in line. If your town misbehaved, gasoline shipments stopped, LPG pipelines and trucks stopped, Water was turned off, power was turned off. Now, until exports start, every drop of gasoline produced goes to the Iraqi people. Crude oil is being stored and the country is at 75% capacity right now. They need to export or stop pumping soon, …so thank the UN for the delay.

          ALL LPG goes to the Iraqi people EVERYWHERE. Water is being purified as best it can be, but at least it’s running all the time to everyone. Are we still getting shot at? Yep. Are American Soldiers still dying? Yep, about 1 a day from my outfit, the 4th Infantry Division, most in accidents, but dead is dead.

          If we are doing all this for the Iraqi’s, why are they shooting at us? The general Iraqi population isn’t shooting at us. There are still bad guys, who won’t let go of the old regime. They are Ba’ath party members (Read Nazi Party, but not as nice) who have known nothing but and supported nothing but the regime all of their lives. These are the thugs for the regime that caused many to disappear in the night. They have no other skills. At least the Nazis had jobs and a semblance of a national infrastructure that they could go back to after the war, …as plumbers, managers, engineers, etc., …these people have no skills but terror. They are simply applying their skills….and we are applying ours. There is no Christian way to say this, ..but they must be eliminated and we are doing so with all the efficiency we can muster. Our troops are shot at literally everyday by small arms and Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPGs). We respond. 100% of the time, the Ba’ath party guys come out with the short end of the stick. The most amazing thing to me is that they don’t realize that if they stopped shooting at us, we would focus on fixing things more quickly and then leave back to the land of the Big PX. The more they shoot at us, the longer we will have to stay.

          Lastly, all of you please realize that 90% of the damage you see on TV was caused by Iraqi’s, NOT by us and not by the war. Sure we took out a few bridges from military necessity, we took out a few power and phone lines to disrupt communications, sure we drilled a few palaces and government headquarters buildings with 2000 lb. laser guided bombs (I work 100 yards from where two hit the Tikrit Palace), he had plenty to spare. But, ANY damage you see to schools, hospitals, power generation facilities, refineries, pipelines, was ALL caused either by the Iraqi Army in its death throes or from much of the Iraqi civilians looting the places. Could we have prevented it? Nope. We can and do now, but 45 days ago the average soldier was fighting for his own survival and trying to get to his objectives as fast as possible. He was lucky to know what town he was in much less be informed enough to know who owned what or have the power to stop a 1,000 people from looting and burning a building by himself.

          The United States and our allies, especially Great Britain, are doing a very noble thing here. We stuck our necks out on the world’s chopping block to free an entire people from the grip of a horrible terror that was beyond belief. I’ve already talked the weapons of mass destruction thing to death, …bottom line, who cares? This country was one big conventional weapons ammo dump anyway. We have probably destroyed more weapons and ammo in the last 30 days than the US Army has ever fired in the last 30 years (Remember, this is a country the size of Texas), so drop the WMD argument as the reason we came here, ….if we find it GREAT, if we don’t, SO WHAT?

          I’m living in a “guest palace” on a 500 acre palace compound just like 20 palaces with like facilities built in half a dozen towns all over Iraq that were built for one man. Drive down the street and out into the countryside 5 miles away like I have and see all the families of 10 or more, all living in mud huts and herding the two dozen sheep on which their very existence depends, …then tell me why you think we are here. WMD? …important, ..have to find ’em wherever they may be (…in Syria?), but not OUR real motivator. Don’t let it be yours either.

          Respectfully, ERIC RYDBOM MAJOR, ENGINEER Deputy Division Engineer 4th Infantry Division 6/1/03

        • #2673212

          No acceptanc eof invaild destruction

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to A soldier’s perspective

          First of all the letter says that the media is showing the wrong perspective, it is then AIMED directly at what CNN airs, which we ALL know is one sided crap. As I commented before though, many will only view a single source as they will be biased towards another source, with this in mind I agree wholly with Major Rydbom (is that “Rid Bomb” or “Ride Bomb” great name for an engineer?) that those relying on the single source are NOT seeing the whole story.

          His story goes on to say “Lastly, all of you please realize that 90% of the damage you see on TV was caused by Iraqi’s, NOT by us and not by the war. Sure we took out a few bridges from military necessity, we took out a few power and phone lines to disrupt communications, sure we drilled a few palaces and government headquarters buildings with 2000 lb. laser guided bombs (I work 100 yards from where two hit the Tikrit Palace), he had plenty to spare. But, ANY damage you see to schools, hospitals, power generation facilities, refineries, pipelines, was ALL caused either by the Iraqi Army in its death throes or from much of the Iraqi civilians looting the places. Could we have prevented it? Nope.”

          There is NO mention of the civillian homes that were bombed by the US. This has been ALL over the news. They have proven US bombs have hit several civillian homes, stores and neighbourhoods. This is the cost of war, it awlays has been, there’s NO point in him denying ti or blaming it on Iraqi’s though. I understand his point was that many of these building have been neglected for years and have fallen to ruin, but that still neatly avoids the American destruction of civiallian inhabited towns and the buildings within.

          Just as CNN shows the nasty side, this sodlier is showing the pretty side.

          Is there NO middle ground or truth to be found at ALL anymore? Must it all be completely left or right, how about just giving us both sides and letting us decide how we feel ourselves insted of all or nothing?

        • #2673205

          Umm…

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to A soldier’s perspective

          Isn’t this one of the letters that bares striking resemblance to a whole lot of others, like they were all written by the same “team” of people, who then sent them to a whole bunch of local [back home] media outlets?

          I think it was reported that superiors were walking around handing these letters to the men to sign so it could be sent back for them, something like that…

        • #2673199

          Astroturf letters…

          by lesdabney67 ·

          In reply to Umm…

          I think this one might be legit though. It was spread around after it was written.

        • #2673175

          I checked

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Umm…

          This message does appear to be legit. I looked up the text of the messages that were duplicates of each other, and this one does not match those. Besides, snopes says it’s true, so it must be.

        • #2673164

          The source is right-wing biased

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I checked

          No matter WHO wrote the letter it sees a 150%Republican side. The letter opens criticizing American news for only showing the bad sides. It then points directly to those watching CNN. It continues by failing to admit that US has bombed civilian residences, AlJazeera news site will correct that so will BBC’s news site, photos AND letters. It even goes as far as pointing out “Liberal” in it. This is a truly Pro-Bush propaganda letter written by someone with a political bias who had just seen his hero. People jump and shout and scream and write fan letters for Michael Jackson too you know.

          Why do you think a single soldiers letter has been displayed for all to read, it’s FOR Bush, what do you expect, good PR and great propaganda, the writer was scared of joining another dog and pony show but that’s all his letter was, a dog and pony show.

        • #2673002

          Right wing, yes, but

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to I checked

          But that’s OK. He’s allowed to have his political beliefs. They are apaprently his honest beliefs, to which he is completely entitled. So I find no fault with the fact that he expressed them.

          Right wing is OK. Left wing is OK. Chicken wings are OK, too. The debate continues, and this is a good thing.

        • #2673609

          I fully agree

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I checked

          Right or Left it doesn’t matter. Unless you are tagged as left wing and try to make ANY validation to someone Right-wing, you are then just Democratic and biased, or so I am often told.

          This letter was intended to supoprt a neutral statement, whoch it doesn’t because it is politically biased. The whole problem is that there IS no middle. it’s left or right, the left is always wrong (apparently) because the right is in control (so they think).

          You can’t go accepting a biased opinion as neutral, I have had this drilled into me with ANY statemt I make or any link I post, it is either considered biased or it is nonsense unless it is Republican.

          Now we have a neutral ground or se wccept statements from wither side?

          I wish someone would email me the rules, they seem to change too often.

        • #2673446

          Rules for Oz

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to I checked

          Ok Oz one more time.
          Rule #1. I am always right.
          Rule #2. If you disagree with me see rule #1.

        • #2673406

          Well

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I checked

          Spank me and call me beeeeeatch!

          I disagree with rule number two because it isn’t validated. Rule number one is strictly funny and I thank you for the Friday morning humor.

          Good to hear from you though.

        • #2673404

          Oz, See rule #1

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to I checked

          I’ve been quite lately, not much to say either way. I am learning to keep a low profile. `;]

          mrbill-(2859)

      • #2673172

        With a…..

        by jkaras ·

        In reply to How do you measure success?

        fat bank account, trophy wife, and a luxury vehicle.

        • #2673169

          Ahhh

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to With a…..

          And yet I still don’t feel successful…

        • #2673156

          all things…

          by lesdabney67 ·

          In reply to Ahhh

          serve the beam

    • #2673235

      Hopefully a balance question…

      by cactus pete ·

      In reply to Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

      “In the end, the naysayers will eventually have to admit the success of operation Iraqi Freedom.”

      Does this mean that no matter the cost, not matter the length of time, no matter whatever other element, that reaching the goal of rebuilding Iraq creates a success?

      The ends do not always justify the means. I hope our leaders – all of them – always think of this. All the money and all the time doesn’t always work. And just because you’ve started down a long road doesn’t mean you should stay on it when it just keeps getting longer and longer. I just want to see better “strategery” here.

      • #2673228

        Not only that but

        by lesdabney67 ·

        In reply to Hopefully a balance question…

        The idea that the conquest of Iraq has shifted from a “threat” i.e. Iraq and its nuclear, biological, and chemical threat to the US to a humanitarian mission is preposterous.

        Why isn’t the “liberal” media harping about all the lies that got us into this war?

    • #2673223

      By Whom, Why and when would these countries…

      by tr_member ·

      In reply to Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

      …be liberated: China, Kashmir (Indian State), Iran, Saudi, North Korea, Bangaladesh, CIS countries, Kurds (in Turkey), Indonesia, Malaysia, Baseque (Spain), Pakistan (has a military rule)

      It is only a partial list of countries where people have been suppressed in some form or the other. Rights have been snatched…..

      So why is no war being waged on all these countries? It is simply not possible for us to weed out the ‘evil’ in our society. We must make attempts to remove it, though.

      What might look apparently silly/cruel/brutal/backward in one culture might not for those folks.

      Heard that a cosmetic surgery trend to remove a toe is gaining its due ‘fame’. Women have known to do so, so that they can have their shoes fit better. And we called Chineese barbaric when their women tied their feet to get it small.

      My bottom line, each nation has plethora of domestic problems to address. Let it address those. And spend only the bare necessary time and efforts to solve international problems.

    • #2673213
      • #2673208

        Star struck?

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to President Bush’s 90 minutes with the troops. . .

        These are all very valid statements made by these soldiers who were literally AWED at seeing thier hero (not 35 feet away!).
        The first stated it was another dog and pony show he didn’t want to attend at first but after a more formal invitation he was obliged to attend.

        He wasn’t looking forward to listening to the usual, but when his HERO stepped in he cheered as did everyone else, in the small select group of 6000 attendees. These people look up to thier Commander in Chief with ONLY the highest respect and would never question his motives, as they rightly shouldn’t.

        I think this letter as nice as it is is also as Republican biased as any contrary report is considered left-wing. sorry till no middle ground, left or right, take your pick.

        Onne line even referenced ‘What are the liberals thinking’, this instantly shows the authors political bias and therefore detracts from the validity of the statements.

    • #2673210

      Iraq Tribunal May Try Saddam in Absentia

      by maxwell edison ·

      In reply to Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

      .
      .
      “Iraq’s interim government established a special tribunal Wednesday (today) to try top members of Saddam Hussein’s government for genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity, and said Saddam could be tried in absentia.”

      Link:

      http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031210/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_war_crimes_23

      or

      http://tinyurl.com/ymu5

      • #2673147

        COOL !!

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Iraq Tribunal May Try Saddam in Absentia

        I think that’s expected news though isn’t it? The fact that others connected with his regime will be brought to justice is very nice to hear, many are let go lightly as they are simply following someone’s orders.

        As for Saddam, I think the original intent was to kill him in Iraq. I don’tthink too many soldiers would have been condemned for ‘accidentally’ shooting him for holding a banana instead of a gun.

        I may be wrong but I think the problem is bringing him to justice in the first place isn’t it? If he is tried in absentia does this mean that anyone will turn him in or risk being tried themselves for harbouring him , I’m sorry but I don’t understand that part.

        Is the penalty he will receive a concern or is it WHERE to find him?

    • #2673184

      A Thanksgiving Message From Iraq

      by road-dog ·

      In reply to Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

      The following letter was sent to family and friends of an engineer battalion in Iraq. Names have been deleted for security reasons (the Department of Defenses security policy.)

      http://www.strategypage.com/respect/articles/20031204a.asp

      • #2673145

        Nice letter, but what’s your point?

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to A Thanksgiving Message From Iraq

        I just don’t get what you’re trying to imply by posting it.

        1) if it is that the US Army is not doing much to rebuild Iraq, I see the point but it is limited to just a few batallions of engineers.

        2) If it is the opposite and you’ve posted it to show how they are rebuilding Iraq; they only mention TWO schools are being resupplied. The rest if the engineering is for accomodating US soldiers and engineering batallions, fixing thier indaequate showers and clearing land for buildings to be erected so more batallions have comfort but very little about helping Iraq become a better place. Even though these engineers are moving in so that they CAN rebuild Iraq, that is not the focus of the letter. It is to calm the soldiers families and assure them that the soldier lives in Iraq are improving. Were they not also comfortable, with a hot shower at home though?

    • #2673132

      Those who do and those who die …

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

      “I go out every day,” says 432nd Civil Affairs Battalion Sgt. Bill Belongea. “I have not had to raise my weapon yet. It’s not as bad as the media portrays it.”

      What would Sgt Bill Belonga have to say to the families of the soldiers killed in November (I didn’t make a note of the number) but it was highest military casualty rate in any month since the end of the major engagement.

      • #2673119

        It was over 100 people.

        by lesdabney67 ·

        In reply to Those who do and those who die …

        The worst month yet and this month isn’t looking much better. There was an attack today that wounded 61 troops.

        • #2673042

          it was a 1000 pound truck bomb.

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to It was over 100 people.

          It could have caused casualties akin to the Beirut Marine Barracks bombing…. but it didn’t.

          The truck was destroyed by a sentry before entering the compound.

          This is a difficult job. These guys are doing it well.

        • #2673591

          Thanks road-dog …

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to it was a 1000 pound truck bomb.

          I appreciate your endeavours to keep things in perspective. And yes, it would appear that they are doing a good job in the most adverse of circumstances.

    • #2673663

      A Military Viewpoint

      by road-dog ·

      In reply to Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

      What is the Score in Iraq?
      by Austin Bay
      December 10, 2003

      http://www.strategypage.com/onpoint/articles/20031210.asp

      • #2673585

        An interesting article …

        by jardinier ·

        In reply to A Military Viewpoint

        and commendable for the frankness of its scoring.

        • #2673563

          Not even the admin is saying that everything

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to An interesting article …

          is going well. Tactics are changed in response to the enemy, and we change up on them to keep them off balance.

          Some things work, others don’t.

          Nobody said it would be easy or bloodless.

          Iraq’s journey toward it’s future is off to a nice start, particularly after 40 years of stagnation and oppression.

    • #2673611

      Over half of the Iraqi Army has quit.

      by lesdabney67 ·

      In reply to Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

      Newly revised numbers of Iraqi Army defections send the number of recruits that quit is up from 1/3 to 1/2.

      50% of the Army said “I quit”.

      Much more success like this and it might start to be a problem.

      • #2673610
      • #2673599

        Military vs police

        by road-dog ·

        In reply to Over half of the Iraqi Army has quit.

        One third of Iraq’s new soldiers quitting army
        By Pauline Jelinek
        December 11, 2003 – 10:03AM

        http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/11/1071086173183.html

        Sorry to bust your bubble, there are 160,000 Iraqi security forces. This being the case, Iraq not having a standing offensive army is not a big issue. Having a trained, professional, and voluntary military is a “nice to have”, not a “got to have” in order for the transition to be a success. As the insurgency is beaten down, the recruitung and retention will improve.

        Personally, I think it’s a positive step that the Iraqi people are seeing their new army is voluntary, particularly after the abyssmal treatment under the Baath party, where most of the military was poorly trained and equipped and set up as cannon fodder for the republican guard.

        After 40 years of horrific warfare and conscription, Iraqis are exercising their right of dissent and taking control of their destinies. I see this as a sound psychological victory inasmuch as a political setback.

        • #2673571

          You know that…

          by lesdabney67 ·

          In reply to Military vs police

          this administration dissolved the former military that was there under Saddam don’t you? This “new security force” so far has yet to be seen working in Iraq and I highly doubt that they really exist especially if Donald Rumsfeld is the only source of that claim.

        • #2673564

          Most of the military dissolved itself

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to You know that…

          and the news has covered the deaths of Iraqi security personnel, which I think confirms their existence. As I recall, 8 were killed in the bombing of a police station.

          As for not reconstituting the Iraqi army, I don’t see the wisdom in keeping the army as opposed to building a new one. The army fell into two categories:

          1) Baath party members who wee loyal to Saddam, who received training and adequate supplies.

          2) Conscripts who were poorly trained and equipped.

          Either of these are no better than a hand selected and totally retrained military built from the ground up.

          Some of these indigenous security forces share patrols with our forces and have assumed control of some uncontested areas.

    • #2673509

      Has the world forgotten about the “WereWolfen” Terror after WWII

      by jimhm ·

      In reply to Iraq behind the cameras: a different reality

      Has the world media forgotten about the years 1945 to 1947 of terrorist (they didn’t call it that back then) called the “WereWolf’s” – the loyal followers of Hilter.

      That is a 3 month time frame alone (not over over the three years) they committed over 500 assults and attacks on German civilians, Allied forces, trains, buildings, planeted landmines, murdered civilian that worked with the Allies to rebuild the country.

      That lasted 3 years, and the leader was dead. We need to find Saddam – and end his life so we end his supports drive to return the country to his leadership.

      This has only been going on over there for 6 months…. Hilter was dead and it went on for over 3 years.

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