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Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

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I was discussing this with a friend the other day, and we noticed a pattern in Microsoft’s software. All of it was launched with great hype and fanfare and touted as a ‘good’ product, but the results have been mixed. Going all the way back to 1986:

DOS 3.3: GOOD
DOS 4.2: BAD
DOS 5.0: GOOD
DOS 6.0: BAD
DOS 6.22: GOOD
Windows 3.0: BAD
Windows 3.1: GOOD
Windows 95: BAD
Windows NT/98: GOOD
Windows ME: BAD
Windows 2000/XP: GOOD
Windows Vista: ?

I have used all these OS’s with the exception of Vista, and these are my experiences. Anyone have similar experiences?

Topic

You missed out 2003

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

so it’s got to be good hasn’t it.

LOL

agree, and more

In reply to You missed out 2003

You missed out quite a few DOS versions, and many Windows versions.

Additionally, what criteria did you use to determine “GOOD” from “BAD” and from what perspective?

One may be good for games, but bad for office environment or vice versa
or one may be good from a user point of view, but bad from a techie angle
and so on….
you get my point?

EDIT: typoswe lure
hehe

Here Here!

In reply to agree, and more

There were MANY versions of DOS that MS came out with besides what’s shown. Having worked with CP/M, Xenix, Unix, Linux, DOS/Windows and Mac I can say, in my humble opinion of course, that MS products still lag behind the others and are porrly designed (except maybe Exchange). MS has copied SO many features from other software vendors it’s unbelievable.

Then why has Microsoft done so well you ask? Does anyone remember Beta and VHS? It’s all about marketing. If Bill Gates had not been so good at this (and a BSer too) he’d be a second rate programmer at Motorola.

Could not agree more!

In reply to Here Here!

C/PM DEC/VAX were the best. Commodore Geos was slow, but reliable.

Windoze is nearly ubiquitous, and we’re pretty much forced to use it for things like video, etc., but it’s wholly unreliable.

It is most interesting to see the dismal results issuing from those who have decided to flip to Mac/iMac, and find, as we did, that the mouse acts like an Etch-A-Sketch and the lack of choices and type-able instructions is uselessly limiting on one’s productivity.

Also, VHS began adopting ? problems, vis a vis: ? usually kept the tape wound around the spinning head “stretch” while rewinding – thus exposing it to stress and stretching itself. Early VHS placed the tape back into the cartridge before doing any FF or RW which saved the tape considerable tension; later versions deployed the “instant-play” “feature”, which ran the tape through all the chutes and ladders and subjected it to extended stress – all in the name of selling more, …

The “wonderful” thing about these thugs is that they will use their money to gang up against those who produce quality goods so they can force the public to buy their detesable crap with no realy choices. M$ and Macrap do spin their B$ with more quality than their products deliver, … and will continue to do so, … much like the “Big-Three Automakers” of yesteryear, … until the Orient makes the necessary changes and drives them out of business with real choices. It’s just that I feel too old to wait for the next generation what’ll work.

Crack up

In reply to Could not agree more!

Whats this got to do with anything. we are in no way forced to use it, “and we’re pretty much forced to use it for things like video, etc., but it’s wholly unreliable” how in hell did you come up with tis bbrilliant piece of thinking. hello each OS has a video player of some sort that will play all formats. what has VHS and beta got to do with anything. so what high quality OS would you use and well why havent you bagged linux yet

Well, as to VHS<>?…

In reply to Crack up

That was in response to the previous submission by:
electronics_md@…
Job Role: Networking / LAN Administration
Location: Graniteville, VT
Member since: 01/26/2001

As to force: I work at a business that uses computers and I’m forced to use Mac, iMac, and various M$ crap, so if I want to work nearby, yes, I’m forced to use it.

At home, as you can see from my entries scattered throughout this discourse (it’s my only submissions in this forum since joining), I began with Apple, but bought an Osborn for my first personal/business use. Previous to that, I had employed two Frieden Just-O-Writers for word processing, paper tape and all. My first DOS was C/PM, although Apple had something they called DOS, but it was horrible, like a rack of dominos, if one bit got bumped, and entire disk could be corrupted.
I traveled around the country writing research papers for clients on their machines as well as on my own, so I had the plethora of Operating Systems, Trash-DOS, Adam, Sinclair, TI, the gamut. Some of those clients had 8086’s and 8088’s, but their systems were so slow with M$ that I found it much easier to type in WordStar on the Osborn and modem it to the M$ in ASCII – even at 110 baud it was quicker than waiting for M$-DOS to boot and try to open WordPerfect and try to figure the different F-strokes for underline, bold, etc..
Finally a friend(?) gave me a Sharp PC-7000, a “lunch-box” portable with a blue LCD pop-out display. This came with DOS 2.11, PC Tools 2.11, WordPerfect 3, so I used it on occasion, but preferred to program SuperCalc and dBASE II 2.3b in C/PM and null-modem it into other systems (using a piece of gum wrapper foil to jump the 2-3 pin connectors).

Because M$ would not release a new version unless and until it interferred with Lotus and other “competitors”, I was negative about them ab initio – still am.

I am forced to use their crap because when I was buying computers, they came with M$ bundle in the box. I wanted to use video production, and I already know Mac is not for me. The mouse is like an Etch-A-Sketch, with a sling-shot response; I know, I must use them at work still, so I am not going to use a painfully inferior system to do something Pinnacle and Premier say they can do on M$. It is ubuquitous, and it is in control. If you don’t like the term “force”, you must deliberately ignore history because force is what M$ produces more than anything else.
I have ?-tested for Ashton-Tate/Borlund International, so I think I can claim some knowledge and experience with other “power-users”, and I know force when I encounter it – daily.
As to “tis bbrilliant piece of thinking. hello each OS has a video player of some sort that will play all formats”, I, … oddly, don’t have a complaint; MediaPlayer is a very usefull piece for viewing MPG(1&2), AVI, MP3, and such. Version 10 is easy to use, but does not play in “all formats”; I know because I have it reject many things I try to open, even .avi, so I guess you just don’t have the experience to back up your statement.
The reliability factor is what I have described – perhaps in too much detail already elsewhere, but I cannot use older devices in XP – I paid full price for them less than 5? years ago, and there is no excuse for M$ not to support them except that they want to be the be-all-and-end-all of everything, so they close out all perceived competition – again. Arrogant, bullyish behavior, but monopolists are like that – read history over and over.

There is ample evidence brought forth in other comments on this very forum to show that O/S-2 was better than anything M$ has produced yet – or is realistically expected to produce. Their stuff is already described by others who have at least as much experience as I, as bloated with startup times which are ridiculous. They are fulfilling the definition of tyranny as described in that wonderful paper, The Declaration Of Independence, “but, when a long train of abuses evinces …” read it for yourself and consider WGA and all the other debacles.

In short, M$ is not out to compete, they are out to destroy and conquer. They have broken laws and used thug tactics internationally to accomplish their goal. They are a joke among real programmers of the past, but those programmers realize that, for now, they are forced to deal with M$ until something, a real choice comes around. Many have switch to Unix<> for everything they can; some have seldom dealt with M$, but there aren’t that many quality professionals out there who are happy with M$. Too often they must “say the right things” to avoid offending clients who choose not to inform themselves about M$ and just want results (see the article about the Bureaucrats above – I didn’t write it), but they – down deep – resent the company and its tactics and crummy problems and persistance in continuing the legacy that has brought the power of computing to its knees in favor of bsods and maintainence. The old-timers know what quality and production were. It’s a shame the younger set may never know.
This year I’m paying professionals to see if I can “migrate” to Suse for everything, photography, musical scoring, video, publications, but I’m going to be faced with a learning curve, because the programs I must use at work are not going to migrate with me.
End Of Line (MCP)

P.S. Sorry to the rest of you. I have appreciated all the old-timey comments – brought back wonderful memories.

You Just Don’t Get It

In reply to Well, as to VHS<>?…

This isn’t about you!
This isn?t about the good old days when you used paper and pencils by candlelight.
This is about the new world with electricity, and fiber optics, and mass communications.
Quit harping about the past and grow up!

Sure Microsoft has been accused of behaving badly; no one disagree with that point; but has anybody produced something better on such a scale? No.

The reason there are vulnerabilities in Office and Windows OS is because of the hackers, not the programmers. There are problems with all Operating Systems and all applications. If the hackers spent as much time looking at Linux, Mac or whatever, the way they spend their time looking at Windows, they could find just a many problems and vulnerabilities.

The issue is that the majority of the world uses Windows; and from a hacker?s standpoint – if you were trying to disrupt the world and trying to create chaos would you try to topple the king or the mayor.

The real problem is that the hackers spend their time trying to break things instead of fix things ? that?s because they?re lazy. It?s much easier to destroy something that it is to make it better. What a waste of brain power.

No one produces a product that was meant to be crap least of all Microsoft. ?You play to win.? ? Herman Edwards. The object of any business is to make money; and that is all MS is doing ? ethics aside. If you don?t like it don?t buy it. It?s easy to complain without having any answers ? do you have the answer? Until something better comes along guess what ? the world will keep buying it. If you don?t like it create your own app.

Microsoft has dedicated a lot of capital and resources to produce products that will help the average user as well as businesses – not old farts like you. If the world wanted a command line interface everyone would look like you; but they don?t. You are a minority ? in fact you?re almost non existent when you look at the number. At some point you become divisible by infinity.

I am not saying that MS has the answer; in fact in 10 years I don?t believe MS will be the dominant desktop OS; but they will still produce applications that help us in ways you can?t imagine ? they are forward thinking, are you?

This is a new millennium – from this point forward. Try to make this a better place instead tearing down what someone better than you thought up.

jrs_mcp….just don’t get it?

In reply to Well, as to VHS<>?…

Hmmm, while the command line has it’s place…when you do start then run I bet cmd is the default so you’re not too far off the command line yourself. If you think that’s all the ‘NIX OS’s are is a command line interface it’s you that’s in the dark but not lighting candles. The first thing would be the X windows display manager has only been around since dos 3.3 and has improved steadly with each passing year. Additionally, there isn’t a program you can run under windows that doesn’t have counter part in the ‘NIX world that either works as well or is superior to the Microsoft offering and guess what the people that wrote those ‘NIX programs don’t feel the need to rummage through your personal property every thirtieth of a second to see if there’s not something else they can gouge you for. The fact is that Microsoft has behaved like a bully and put their resources into calling you and treating you like a criminal.

Forced ot Choice

In reply to Well, as to VHS<>?…

Speaking of being forced to use a particular OS, I am attending University of Phoenix online. I’m taking IT Professional snd my homework has to be done in Microsoft Power Point, Microsoft Excel and Microsoft Word. My classes are downlaoed to Microsoft Outlook Express. I can go to class online, but their email system stinks, so my “choice” is OE. I don’t know UNIX as well as I would like, but for my purposes I think it is the way I will go after school.
The unfortunate thing of all this is that Microsoft has made it so that web pages ALL seem to be compatible with MS, even though some can be viewed properly with Mozilla (which I like) and iRider (which I also like, but ALL sites can be viewed in IE.
I don’t post very often, in fact rarely, but my idea is become familiar with all OS’s and be ready to use the ones you have no choice with, because sometimes there isn’t any good choice except quit your job or get everyone fired at Microsoft, including Bill and staring over as a competitor not a manipulator and dictator.

MS Vulnerabilities and Forced Use – web site compatibility

In reply to Well, as to VHS<>?…

1. The reason so many hackers attack MS, is because they KNOW how to write code, and they get upset about how the MS marketing liars say how secure and safe it is, when it isn’t. So they set out to prove it isn’t.

Most MS software isn’t secure and has a lot of poor coding in it simply because MS puts too many features in it that should be separate applications. They could include these on the CD to be loaded after the OS, but they choose to install them direct into the OS. They also code in lots of special doorways to allow their other software easier access to the OS. These doorways are open to use by anyone else. The vast majority of hackers don’t do anything special in attacking Windows, they just use the same code that MS uses to access these doorways to allow them in and then send it other coded instructions.

The majority of attacks that work on Windows don’t work on other systems as the other OSs don’t have these open doorways to give them free access.

The real problem is poor coding, as a result of bad management decisions and directions, that leave the system vulnerable.

MS have produced good OSs in the past, then they started adding all the crap features into the OS instead of as application.

2. The reason so many web sites show better on Windows than other browsers is nothing to do with how MSIE is written, it’s because the web site designers create them using MS software or software designed specifically for Windows, and thus the web sites come out cultivated for Windows. In the past I’ve used MS FrontPage to create a web site that looked great in Netscape Navigator but crap in MSIE, simply because I used html code and colours that favoured Netscape over MSIE. For the last year or so, I’ve been using FireFox and every web page I look at in FF, shows the same way as in MSIE, with two exceptions.

In both those cases I went to web sites that caused a client trouble, in MSIE accessing the web site resulted in trojans being automatically loaded to the system, in FF the browser detected the trojans and stopped loading the site, thus protecting the system.

——

In the early days, MS offered good software that was well coded, for that time, and did it’s job as well, or better than, others. When they switched to Win 95 there was a change in management direction, and the way they coded software. Since then, things have gotten worse, the MS focus now is very predatory and marketing with no focus on coding quality.

There is help for you yet !

In reply to Well, as to VHS<>?…

Go to Linuxcentral.com look for commercial distros link over on left hand side click on it
There is a O/S called Xandros Desktop version 3.0 get it ! then to Codeweavers.com and get their software add it to your new O/S and your runining Windows stuff inside Linux and so much more stable and looks so much like Windows your customers will never know the difference . .
All for under $150.00 and no more patch Tuesday or fixes for patches or patched fixes and on till when ever h-ll frezzes over !
just me
Jackie

Wow! I’ve never heard that before!

In reply to Here Here!

I think I’m in a time warp back to 1993.

well there you are …

In reply to Wow! I’ve never heard that before!

JG … time to get your head out of the sandbox, eh? Got that Windows 3.11 to Windows XP Pro rollout plan done yet? Well, scrap it. Vista’s here to screw up your day … but on the bright side all your users will be tickled pink with new 4GHZ 2GB computers and 21″ LCD screens (it takes to use Vista)! 😉

with new 4GHZ 2GB computers and 21″ LCD screens (it takes to use Vista)! ;-

In reply to well there you are …

I don’t believe that is true

The Old Beta/VHS argument strikes again.

In reply to Here Here!

Its a crappy argument. At least Beta video tapes worked as easily as VHS tapes. Linux is still hobbled by its constant need to use command lines and inability to play games and seamlesly plug and play hardware as easily as Windows. Windows isnt perfect, but for the average user today it makes Linux look primative and for the nerds.

P.S. I have used Linux Suse for some period of time in the past and I thought it was pretty good. I am not a Linux hater.

That must have been sometime ago. I’ve been trying Linux

In reply to The Old Beta/VHS argument strikes again.

for over 18 months now, and not had to use a command line except to run things I need to run as a command line in Windows, like pings. You don’t need command lines for normal usage of Fedora Core 4, Fedora Core 5, Ubuntu, or SimplyMEPIS. You can use command lines if you want, but that’s the same with Windows.

As for games. Want to run games specifically designed for windows, get Cedega, Crossover, or WINE. I’ve found Cedega will run many of my old Win 98 games that won’t run in Win XP.

Several months back, I switched to SimplyMEPIS Linux as I was fed up of constantly rebuilding my system due to M$ Windows crashing it because WGA was screwing it up something bad.

Linux is now easier and quicker to load than Windows, more stable, and just as easy to use – often easier to use.

Most modern Linux installs will detect all your hardware and load proper drivers, something that doesn’t happen with Windows. I don’t have to get extra drivers for the video card, the sound card, the NIC, or the Modem – they’re all part of the Linux install, they’re found and work properly at once. With Windows they won’t work until after special drivers are loaded after the install – even then, I sometimes had to reload them after Windows had ‘fixed’ them – MS doesn’t like you using anything but USA based drivers.

Or possibly on a server

In reply to That must have been sometime ago. I’ve been trying Linux

Without a GUI installed as that eats up too much performance that is better used elsewhere.

I notice that this particular poster didn’t actually look at any of the applications that come included with every form of Linux that you pay extra for in Windows either and worse still take even longer to install after you have spent up to 60 minutes installing Windows. You can then start on the device drivers that are required and the software so that you can actually use the computer to do something more than collect E-Mail browse Porn Sites and get infected with Virus and Spy Ware.

But I suppose Media Player consists of a real Medial Player that you can use to view all those WAV files that you’ve downloaded from your favourite Porn Site right? 😀

And Notepad is a Real Word Processor without a spell checker. :p

Col

Hey, HAL, if you’re writing HTML then Notepad is the best MS

In reply to Or possibly on a server

word processor to do it in, as MS Word will quadruple the size of the file with useless garbage, just like all the MS developed software. I think they must have stolen Notepad off someone, it’s just to well written.

Good point DE

In reply to Or possibly on a server

But on the other side I’ve seen a LAN sold to a company with only Windows XP Home loaded and they where told that they had a complete package with everything that was required.

Seems that the sales person had decided that Notepad was a Word Processor and was selling it as such. I only realised this when I was asked to find out why the spell checker wasn’t working.

They had also setup the LAN and pulled all the wire but not actually setup the LAN and had showed them how to send a file to a different workstation by E-Mail. It was at least making money for the ISP I suppose but it was hardly a secure or realistic setup. But then again with 25 computers I suppose that it didn’t matter as they couldn’t setup a proper Share or anything else the software was just so far below the standard required that it wasn’t funny.

Actually I’m extremely lazy and don’t write any HTML as I have things like Dreamweaver to do it for me. What can I say it works and I didn’t pay for it so those are 2 very good reasons to use it. 😀

Col

There is a real Good one called

In reply to That must have been sometime ago. I’ve been trying Linux

Need to go to linuxcentral dot com and get
Xandros desktop OS version 3 and then use your Code Weavers program to run any of the aforementioned Windows stuff ( I call it Messy She hit ! ) and you off to the world and do not have the crashes and run all the windows junk anyway and its all for UNDER $150.00 and it will scream . . I got a 3.0 Intel P4 gigahertz
with 2 gigs PC-3200 ram and 800 megahertz FSB
256 DDR ram on video card runs like a screaming bear . .

I think that you are getting mixed up here

In reply to The Old Beta/VHS argument strikes again.

It’s Linux which loads all the necessary Drivers the GUI of your choice and just about all the software that you’ll ever need with only a few exceptions for drivers for some hardware and now they are very few and far between.

Where as Windows on the other hand requires the Base OS to be installed and then after several Reboots you can start to install all the Device Drivers all of which generally require a reboot after being installed. Then you can start to install your required software as Windows in any form comes with very little.

Install time for a typical Linux is about 45 minutes and Windows XP on the same hardware several hours to get the OS, Device Drivers and a Base Software install present and then you can download several hundred Meg of Patches to try to make the Platform Secure.

Sorry but unless a CLI is specifically wanted I haven’t seen one as the default Linux install for well over 10 years now the Default on most Nix Installs is Gnome or you can chose KDE. If you have actually used SUSE you would already know this though and you would already know that you don’t need to dig around for device drivers either unlike you have to do with Windows unless you are using a Slipstreamed Install DVD made by one of the Proprietary Computer Makers Like Dell, HP, Gateway or the like. These are not normal Windows Installs but are installs that only support the hardware originally supplied with the case and when something is replaced UG you’ll most times be told that you need the correct Install CD/DVD to reinstall the OS and software as the crippled installer will not allow the Install Process to proceed because it no longer recognises the internal hardware.

Gateway are very good at doing things like this particularly when they replace a M’Board UG they don’t give you a new set of Install CD’s/DVD but leave you with your originals which refuse to install when it’s necessary. How you see this as good for the average End User defeats me totally. 😀

Col

Picking and choosing to contrive a pattern

In reply to agree, and more

Agree regarding the missing versions. Also, how can you split Windows 3.0 and 3.1 and then combine Windows 2000 and XP? An amusing little idea, but it breaks down pretty quickly.

unfortunately jgaskells right: humor loses to facts.However…

In reply to Picking and choosing to contrive a pattern

NT/98 are DEFINITELY 2 operating systems, ditto for 2000/XP.

Also Windows 3.0 bad, Windows 3.1 bad, windows 3.11 good.

But I do believe the downfall of Vista is predicted in Revalations… note the 6 versions of Vista correspond to the mark of the beast.

Lol — gave me a good laugh

In reply to unfortunately jgaskells right: humor loses to facts.However…

Thank You

Agreed

In reply to Lol — gave me a good laugh

When slamming MS, rarely is anyone original or funny
That post was both 🙂

NT/98 where were you?

In reply to Picking and choosing to contrive a pattern

Uh, not remotely close to the same OS, and of everything you listed, 98 was without question the worst OS ever released.
Must agree that your list was simply created to put forth a poorly conceived pattern.

NO I have to disagree

In reply to NT/98 where were you?

ME was much worse that 98 ever was as it fell over far more often did less and was considered by everyone concerned to be the Worst well known OS that MS ever put out.

Actually MS Bob was even worse but as that never really reached the number of copies released and there are Laws against [b]Cruel & Inhumane Punishment no one with half a brain ever mentioners it.[/b]

Col

98 yes bad, 98SE good

In reply to NT/98 where were you?

at least my opinion, and I am still using it on one of my several swappable boot drives

Wrong

In reply to NT/98 where were you?

The worst attempt at an OS by microsoft was ME there is not even a close second on this one and I remember them all very well.

I was surprised also (vis-a-vis NT/98).

In reply to NT/98 where were you?

I am sure by now someone has beat up ATROON since everyone knows that 98 was almost the last gasp for the 16-bit OS line; followed by the USB version (98SE) and ME (that was a real disgrace).

I remember hearing about BOB but thought it was one of those Urban Legends so popular on the web.

NT was M$’s first real effort at a real 32-bit OS … and frankly once they got to 4 it worked like a charm. I went from 3.11 to NT 4 and what a joy it was to leave the computer running for months on end without having to stop and restart all the time. Even XP can’t run untended as long as NT did. I know … my NT system power supply died one night and took the computer with it. The replacement was a brand-name XP system that has to be rebooted about once a week because something runs afoul and locks up.

not too difficult

In reply to Picking and choosing to contrive a pattern

There were significant changes between 3.0 and 3.1 (having suffered through all the versions from 1.0 to 3.11 on my Toshiba laptop) … but when we went from 2K to XP, the system hardly noticed anything different except on the server side everything got a lot more complicated … like none of my users could run Netscape anymore because the server would no longer authenticate logins through any browser except IckyExplorer which was a real pain to the power users who felt like someone had let the air out of their productive tires so to speak. The old M$ mantra: if you can’t beat’em, freeze’em out.

Picking and choosing to contrive a pattern

In reply to agree, and more

Agree regarding the missing versions. Also, how can you split Windows 3.0 and 3.1 and then combine Windows 2000 and XP? An amusing little idea, but it breaks down pretty quickly.

who else makes compatable operating systems?

In reply to agree, and more

If windows is the good bad and ugly why doesn’t someone come up with another operating system better?

There are several “better” ones

In reply to who else makes compatable operating systems?

Better at what though ?

VMS for instance was one of the best multi user application servers ever.
You are not going to see it on the desktop any time soon though.

Compatable with what?

In reply to who else makes compatable operating systems?

Pick up a live cd some time. I’ve tried quite a few different distros and most have been compatable with any hardware that I had. (xp had to have drivers for onboard NIC downloaded from a different machine just to get online to download the rest) I can hot swap the drives that run xp and read data from the drive. Can I read any other format from an xp machine?
So by compatable you must mean that I can’t install programs that are expressly written to install on a Microsoft operating system? I don’t see a problem there either.
I do confess that there are a lot of games that will never be released for anything but microsoft operating systems, but I think that it is naive to think that compatable = M$.

ever heard of

In reply to who else makes compatable operating systems?

ever heard of…
unix or OpenVMS

Linus Torvolds did

In reply to who else makes compatable operating systems?

I have recently played with Ubuntu Linux and Vista and Ubuntu installs on more hardware and recognizes devices and loads drivers with NO USER Interaction than does Micro$oft Vista. And Ubuntu is FREE and has BETTER Support than vista.

Thank You

In reply to Linus Torvolds did

I’m Googling Ubuntu after I post this. ANYTHING to avoid M$!! Even an African OS sounds good to me… [;>)

If your not happy with Ubuntu, try Kubuntu or SimplyMEPIS

In reply to Thank You

Kubuntu is Ubuntu with a default KDE interface, and SimplyMEPIS uses Ubuntu heavily, but has a slightly more power user focus, a bit easier to get at some admin functions.

Have you ever heard of LINUX ?

In reply to who else makes compatable operating systems?

Go to linux central dot com and go to commercial distro’s get Xandros Desktop O/S Deluxe version 3 ($79.00 ). . Then go to Code Weavers Dot com ( $69.00 )and get their software for under $150.00 you have a system which can run the windows junk and do it better it makes connecting a network so simple its like falling off a log and SECURITY is so much better . . any more questions ?

Wasn’t that only a server issue OS – while the OP is dealing

In reply to You missed out 2003

with desk top OS’s. I did notice he stuffed up a bit Win 2K and Win XP are two seperate issues, and he has the linked. tch, tch.

But Vista is too expensive in the way of hardware, and incorporates too many counter productive items as core parts of the software. Who needs every employee able to watch videos at their desk, really. I think we’re about to see cases where people are going to lose corporate Internet access at the desk, and only outside contact will be via the mail server.

I simply spotted he’d missed a product

In reply to Wasn’t that only a server issue OS – while the OP is dealing

Personally based on my experience in software, there are releases that are basically a consolidation of the previous that solve existing shortcomings or there are ones which make extensive changes. The latter always go wrong in some respect. Especially when they are more business directed that technical or quality.
I fully expect Vista to cause problems all over the place, not so much because MS have got it wrong, but because they have no way of satisfying the requirements of all their customer base. A mistake they’ve been making since their initial success.

Just their pricing and product strategy is going to slap a lot of people in the face.

The best way of marketting MS Windows was done with W2K

In reply to I simply spotted he’d missed a product

Pro as a desktop or stand alone machine,

Server for use on a server,

Advanced Server, for use on a server in a major server network.

That’s all the versions they need. XP pro was a slightly updated, and eye candied version of W2K Pro.

Vista is an over eye candied multimedia machine, not suitable for an office environment. And very resource heavy.

Not Suitable?

In reply to The best way of marketting MS Windows was done with W2K

What makes you say that Vista is not suited for the office? You don’t think that 2000 GPO settings, the ability to lock out USB drives, and the “every user is a standard user” secuity model are not office-friendly? And those are three things I thought of just off the top of my head and not including things like bit locker encryption.

As for resources, the needed requirements for Vista are well within today’s mainstream computer environment (512MB RAM, 1Ghz processor, and 1024×768 video). I have even been running Vista and Office12 in a VMWare environment that doesn’t meet these specs and Vista is still usable. People look at what Vista wants for all the eye candy and and think that’s what’s needed to even run it, and that simply not true.

I will grant you however that there are just too many versions. It would make more sense to only have a version for home (without the domain), Pro for business, perhaps one that is stripped to sell to third-world countries, and maybe a Media-Center edition-type. That’s not counting two versions of the server world (Sandard and Eterprise). That should be plenty to cover all the bases for MS and stil not be TOO confusing to users.

Going to be a NIGHTMARE !!!!!!!

In reply to Not Suitable?

Users had a problem working out which version of XP they needed, it is going to be a nightmare trying to explain to customers which version they need now, or might need later on with VISTA. Then they will want the ultimate version, but at the home price. This is going to cause a lot of aggravation to vendors, and be very frustrating to users… I am not looking forward to it.

You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

In reply to Not Suitable?

all it does it encourage staff to play videos and movies. from a purely office productivity aspect, the best MS OS ever released was Windows for Workgroups in the Win 3.11 or Win NT versions. The only way you could improve on those would be to change them to handle full 32 bit or 64 bit processing, and 128 bit encryption. It is extremely rare for an office situation to need the media playing capability or to have video conferencing at the desk. So why build an OS around such capabilities, because you’re a fool trying to sell eye candy on the marketing hype again.

It’s marketing pushing for the many versions of Vista – only need three Desktop (Pro) basic server (Server) heavy server (Advanced Server) end of story. Sell add on applications for the few who need multimedia hype.

I agree

In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

[b]”only need three Desktop (Pro) basic server (Server) heavy server (Advanced Server) end of story. Sell add on applications for the few who need multimedia hype”[/b]

and to add…. drop the price of the Base OS accordingly, if these MM apps are “extra”.

What is that is your business model, look more open minded

In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

Deadly Ernest,

I have been looking at your arguments and they are lacking a broader vision. What if you business model requires you to have access to the medias needed for a Media Player system?

Some companies do provide media and other such contents for their employees as a part of their business model.

Quote “It is extremely rare for an office situation to need the media playing capability or to have video conferencing at the desk. So why build an OS around such capabilities, because you’re a fool trying to sell eye candy on the marketing hype again.”
Are you for real?
What era are you living in?
With companies providing video conferencing at the desktop levels on PCs and communications devices you’re saying what?
LOL.

One thing I notice with most of the posts is, everyone has vast experiences in many OS but NOT in many work environments. Vista is providing a wider array of resources for EVERY business in one install and that may be a plus or minus for your business model.

If it isn’t, then so be it, pick what is suitable for you and run with it. Microsoft needs to stop trying to please everyone and just stick to a version for consumers and 2 at most for businesses.

We’re thinking too narrow minded on the issue. I have seen a few sensible posts who hit specific issues on the head. Those are the people who will move ahead and be successful in their adoption and deployments.

The Suite

Re: You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

I provide IT support for Regional Government – including Public Health and Social Services. A lot of information they receive is in video file format which is played with a Media Player. They also use Media Player to present information on laptops and projectors. This was also true when I worked in the private sector.

You need to widen your horizons before you make blanket statements about what you need and do not need in an office environment. Even some sales tools need Media Players. Don’t go through your career wearing blinkers!

There is a lot of interesting software out there and you limit your solutions and usefulness without considering all options – even those that may seem at first glance to be fatuous.

We also try to avoid being IT cops. Either you trust your staff to do their jobs or you don’t. Banning certain products and software can demoralise staff and poison the work environment – which lowers productivity.

We let them play games in breaks and on lunch. If the work isn’t done — it WILL come back on the staff. Hire the right people and try avoid an oppressive corporate culture. We found that staff are willing to work harder and go the extra mile when they feel trusted and not oppressed.

What about video based training

In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

Our company is one of the leaders in online video based training. We offer extensive course and training management thru our application.

You really need to look well beyond what your world offers and see where things are going. With ubiquitous broadband the training of your employees is very likely to move to video, either CD based or integrated into a streaming scenario.

We deal with major retailers and the training of their associates in a growing market for video based training.

We also use video conferencing to interact between offices and for meetings.

B

[b]1 Install???[/b]

In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

You have to be joking currently there are 14 different versions of Vista slated for release 7 32 Bit and 7 64 Bit versions + the server applications and there will have to be at least 1 64 Bit Server app as the new Exchange is going to be a 64 Bit application.

So by my calculations there will have to be at least 16 flavours of Vista if they continue to call the server versions Vista and most likely more as I can not see MS releasing just 1 server version for 32 & 64 Bit most likely 2 or 3 of each type so that will range from 16 to 20 different versions of Vista.

Hardly by any means a [b]Single Install[/b] MS product. It’s confusing with several having the same name but slated at different sections of the market it’s going to be a nightmare for resellers to say the least and I’m betting that there will be quite a few who will push the 64 Bit Versions long before they have sufficient drivers let alone Software Available for them to run. Try connecting any Lexmark Laser Printer to a MS 64 Bit OS and see what happens. 😀

Col

Multimedia hype? You’re out of touch…

In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

I affectionately call IT people with your mindset “network natzis”. Beowulf’s response was perfectly stated and well articulated. I’m not an IT employee, but my computer use goes back to the days of DOS, and I’ve built a few from scratch.

My business? I work for a multimedia company that provides web based training. We build OTS courses and custom content for clients. The number of companies that are purchasing or building their own multimedia courses is increasing- drastically. It’s a perfect solution for reaching wide-spread audiences, and can also be localized to meet the needs of companies with employees in multiple countries.

Training is provided via CD-ROM, streamed via a hosted LMS/LCMS environment, or hosted within corporate intranets. Virtual instructer-led training can also be provided online…I could go on. I won’t.

In short- you’re out of touch.

The bottom line: Multimedia is here, and it’s not going away. It’s not hype, it’s corporate culture in many Fortune 500 companies today. I need only refer to our client base for tha information. Bet you’re not working for any of them… 🙂

A response about media in the office

In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

In the 25 odd years that I’ve been using micro / personal computers in the work environment, I’ve worked in a couple of dozen different organisations, as a permanent, on loan, or consultant. Big business, middle business, government, and defence.

Only twice have I been in an environment where multimedia was needed. One was a training centre and multimedia programs were used as part of Computer Based Training packages, that organisation didn’t use multimedia outside of the training rooms. The other was an organisation that designed multimedia packages.

Last time I checked, two years ago, both those organisations were still running Windows 98SE on P3s, and they were talking about updating to Win XP or switching to Linux.

Most office environments need people to use word processors, spreadsheets, and accounting packages of various types. As a general rule, they don’t use or need multimedia for their daily work.

I’ve seen many govt depts where they have multimedia training packages, and they are on a special computer, set aside for the training, it has all the packages etc on it. No other system in the section or branch has multimedia, they don’t need it.

However, even if your work place is heavy in multimedia training files, everyone that I’ve seen does not need a high end graphics card or huge amounts of RAM to run it, they run quite well on P3s, P4s running Win 2K, Win XP, and Linux, with basic video cards.

You really only need the high end graphics for commercial movies, ie blockbusters etc, and games.

Even so, I still don’t see why the OS has to be design as a major multimedia event from the get go. Makes more sense, technically and coding wise, to have a basic OS, and then a multimedia package available as an application to be added as, and when, required. But no, the MS approach is shove everything in to the OS and the kernel.

Just imagine if you took the same approach to military helicopters, the damn thing would end up about four stories high, and as long as several semi-trailers.

Correction: Many office workers do need video . . .

In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

We have deployed video communications throught our offices, globally as a means to bring our diverse and far reaching workforce messages from department heads, training about products, and many other small packages of information. Do we need Vista to do that? No, we have been encouraging video and audio (with slides and screens) for 4 years. All workers have access to this, not just the so-called road warriors, but all employees. And we encourage all uers to create presentations with video.

3.11 the Best or Pest?

In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

Although I agree with much of your post I should object to your praise of 3.11. The English version I liked and used for quite some time. However you would quickly change your views on 3.11 when you encounter Arabic versions of the same. Utter crap would be your likely conclusions I am bold to predict. Arabized OS’s released in follow-up Windows always were a total screw-up for MS. 98SE saw some improvements in later releases but one had to wait until XP finally got Arabic to work. Hence if someone wants to show alternating succeses in OS one should include other language versions too, which likely shifts many positives back into the negatives, your beloved 3.11 included.

They could have fixed the problems in the Arabic version

In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

without have to develop a whole new OS, and have done it a lot quicker. If they’d spent the time fixing the problems, such as the Arabic version issue, in Win 3.11 instead of everything else they did to create new, poor OSs, they could have given you a decent experience back in 1995 or 1996, not 2001.

80% of what’s in Vista is the sort of stuff you would expect to get separately as applications, not the Operating System.

[b]I have to disagree here DE[/b]

In reply to The best way of marketting MS Windows was done with W2K

The best marketing ploy by M$ was the release of 95!

After all just how many times since have Jo & Jo-Ann Public lined up after hours outside shops to but a copy and [b]Pay Retail Prices At That[/b] for a copy of Windows?That was the best marketing ploy that MS ever developed selling something that wasn’t needed to people who wanted to believe that they [b]Absolutely Had to Have It.[/b]

It hasn’t happened since and is unlikely to either as by now the masses have become jaded with the offering of of MS. As for the Server Products they only have 1 and that is the Light Duty Server no matter how they badge it anything more than 4 CPU’s and it just fails to make full use of the available processing power. Even 2003 ES when it was first released could only drive a Quad CPU setup to 20% capacity. It took several SP’s to fix that mess up and even still we are limited to a max of 4 CPU’s to get the best performance out of Windows.

MS has yet to produce a scalable Server Application and with their existing Kernel they are unlikely to ever be able to develop one.

Col

Col, that may have been their best marketing project, but I

In reply to [b]I have to disagree here DE[/b]

was referring to the best way to package and market the OS. The desktop one should be different to the server one, different needs etc. So you split them. If you have poor coders, you may need a 32 bit and a 64 bit version – so you get four types based on use and hardware.

The last three sets of Linux disc that I got to try, had the 32 bit and 64 bit systems on them. The install program detected what type of hardware you had, then loaded the correct version, and the correct drivers. This capability seems a bit beyond MS coders. But then, so does the concept of keeping the kernel tight and secure.

The very concept of Windows is Ease of Use

In reply to Col, that may have been their best marketing project, but I

Security comes at the bottom of a very long list of [b]Nice To Haves![/b]

Yes I agree that one install should be able to load the correct drivers for the platform that you are working on but Windows has singularly failed to do this from the very beginning so why should they change things now.

I just love the people who insist that to properly install Windows all you need is the CD which works great on a Slipstreamed CD but they get lost very quickly when faced with an OEM or Retail install without the necessary Video. Sound and all the other drivers/software for the hardware that they have. 😀

I’ve lost count of the number of questions that I’ve answered here attempting to explain to people that their computer really isn’t in [b]Safe Mode[/b] but you just don’t have the proper Video Drivers Loaded. They seem to not believe that and if it’s not on the Windows CD there must be something wrong and that is one of the very basic things with any Windows OS. 😀

Of course with any of the Nix’s you don’t have that problem for some strange reason and you also have built in security. Even MS’s attempt to make you log in as Admin to change something has backfired as it’s overused so most people are just going to [b]Turn It Off[/b] which will only make their systems that much easier to break without trying. 😀

Col

Hey Col, MS keep telling us it’s secure, you say it’s to be user friendly

In reply to Col, that may have been their best marketing project, but I

it’s a pity Windows missed both targets so badly. Oh well. But Bill is still laughing.

He ‘borrows’ software ideas from everyone else, ‘borrows’ marketing ideas from Thomas Edison, and becomes a millionaire by being the meanest shark in the market. he got market share by being cheap, then started over charging, when he could afford to pay for all the advertising.

Intel – Micro$oft

In reply to The best way of marketting MS Windows was done with W2K

I have an old 286 laptop with 4 MB’s of RAM that will boot into my menu program (using DOS 6.22), I can select Word Perfect 5.1, type a short letter and send it to a printer and turn the computer off before my brand new X86-3 GHZ Intel duo using WIN2K with 2 Gigs of 533 ram even finishes POST!! And it isn’t even close. Now THAT’S progress!!!

In the Words of Boris Badenoff…

In reply to Intel – Micro$oft

Hugh Sairit, baby! I’ve already boasted of plugging in my Osborne, turning it on, pressing the two-key “start” and typing in my opened document in 17 seconds (WordStar).

It took a “gift” from a DOS user (Sharp PC-7000) to even force me to use DOS 2.2 in my home. Trash-80 was better and I hated it.

Commodore GEOS, had it been allowed to flourish, would have beaten the socks off of M$; the Lisa would have ripped its head off. In fact, they still work and we’re talking of Vista from a crappy ne’er do well to replace yet another in a seemingly endless stream of dysfunctional OS’es from Redmond.

What really gauls me is that the old addage: “Those who never learn from history end up repeating it”, can never work here because I don’t see a repeat of the quality or functionality of C/PM or DEC/VAX in any future. If it could happen, I’d wait in line to be the first to get it, how about you?

Reminds me …

In reply to In the Words of Boris Badenoff…

When I was a corporate hack we had a Unix server that ran all of our corporate printing jobs, and this is a fortune 500 company, that had not been rebooted in 6 (six) years! WIN2K server (this was 2001)? Every week at least once. I’ve bought several versions of Linux, including Suns, but none one of them will install on my computers or I’d be using that instead of M$. Someone on a blog I belong to said that all the B$ with M$ was worth it because Gates gave away all his money. Talk about a crock. But then none of them are in IT. So yes I’d jump at ANY alternative that worked better than M$. I hope we move APPS to the web like Ajaxwrite. I can’t wait for M$ to get what’s coming to them.

A Celt of ancient Gaul

In reply to In the Words of Boris Badenoff…

Have you been “gaul’d” by a Celtic person?
Or did you perhaps mean GALLED?

Now if you could get drivers to allow DOS 6.22

In reply to Intel – Micro$oft

to run the new hardware – gee talk about light speed computing.

WOW!!

In reply to Now if you could get drivers to allow DOS 6.22

What a great idea!! I hope someone reads this and thinks so too, of course someone who could write a driver [;>)

I’ve heard

In reply to Now if you could get drivers to allow DOS 6.22

it done, someone took some from Win98 Also DOS and back-engineered them to Plain DOS. Actually Free-DOS is quite up-to-date on modern drivers, (so I’ve heard) It’s being packaged with new PCs & NBs (It doesn’t break the Mfgrs ‘deal’ with MS, eventhough they ‘Know’ Linix will be installed) There is possiblities, but… oh-my, no media-player :0

I can agree, but…

In reply to Now if you could get drivers to allow DOS 6.22

I think this is the fault of the new hardware, not the old software.

I read an article once about a guy who ran Win 3.1/DOS on a 1 ghz machine. He said something to the effect that this was the way that the software was originally envisioned to run. I can agree with that, I think. When the old stuff runs FAST, its pretty amazing.

But rather than re-invent the software (which did work fine, for the most part), just use the original software in the first place. Other than MultiMate (which has some kind of strange timing issues with CPUs higher than a 386) most DOS software works on modern machines. I have very successfully used DOS 6.2, Lotus 1-2-3 (Ver 2.1!) and WordPerfect 5.1 on Pentium class machines. Fortunately, the printer I use is legacy enough to support both (Lexmark 2930).

The real problem to me is that the manufacturers are making their hardware to conform to Windows, instead of the other way around.

the only reason

In reply to Intel – Micro$oft

that microsoft is releasing vista at all is so they can build the genuine advantage crap right in.After their first genuine crap designated 2 of my legit computers as pirated I immediately started looking at various flavors of Linux to run my and my customers desktops on.I will never pay for or sell a microsoft product again

Registering M$

In reply to the only reason

I have a friend who switched his video cards, he has two, from one slot to another and he was required to re-register XP! Hopeless…

…I used to walk to school up hill both ways barefooted!

In reply to Intel – Micro$oft

Oh, the good ole days when it was quicker to use Turbo-C to create a utility than to use batch files or basic.

When an OS was an OS, and not a glorified application.

When productivity was not measured by how many e-mails were in your in-box and out-box.

When you did not have to spend half a day to learn a new time saving feature in the spreadsheet app that you thought would save you time in the long run. (I’d love to see real statistics on this one!)

But, it’s a fun ride regardless!

And..

In reply to …I used to walk to school up hill both ways barefooted!

It was always snowing and at least a six mile walk…right? Let’s revolt and somehow get drivers for the APPS we want for DOS 6.22!!! [;>)

you forgot to add

In reply to …I used to walk to school up hill both ways barefooted!

In the winter when the snow was over my knees and I had to make my own lunch . . lets see what else was there oh yeah and in the summer it was the aligators bitting at my heels walking to school in waist deep water . .
hehe sitting here giggling making up stuff

Hey Jacquie40d re “sitting here giggling making up stuff”

In reply to …I used to walk to school up hill both ways barefooted!

only three things differentiate you from the MS marketing people and executives:

1. You’re giggling as you realise it’s a joke – they think they’re serious.

2. You have some basis in reality – they don’t.

3. What you say has some factual basis – their’s doesn’t.

But what else can you do

In reply to Intel – Micro$oft

with that dinosaur? Not much else, I’m sure

Dino

In reply to But what else can you do

Yes and that’s the point. I can’t do a whole lot with it. In its day it was a great machine and in fact is still running unlike every laptop I’ve had since, which have all bit the dust. When I’m out and about I use it to type letters and other word processing stuff. Almost 100% of what I do mobile is write letters so for me it works just Jim Dandy. What I said in the beginning was it’s too bad that’s all I can do with it BECAUSE it works, as a computer, so well.

How I can relate to this!

In reply to Intel – Micro$oft

My “usual” laptop is a Compaq Contura 4/25. It runs DOS 5.0 and Win 3.1. When I want to be PRODUCTIVE, I use that. Few frills, very few whistles (no sound!), no internet to distract me.

I realized what you said when I was given an old Macintosh Classic. I had never used one before, so I thought I would goof around with it. I was shocked to see how much more productive I was with this 8 mhz system than I was with my 1.8 ghz XP system! Instead of having to figure out what DIDN’T work, it turned on and worked right the first time. I just got right to work.

Truthfully, I don’t think we have progressed much at all.

Do$ 5 & 6.22???

In reply to How I can relate to this!

I have read the above articles re: DO$ 6.22, and wonder what the advantage of that is over DO$ 5.

I agree, when all I was doing was writing letters, I was most content with 8088 and 286 with WordStar or WP 5 & 6. They did boot mighty fast compared to many newer systems, but much MUCH slower compared to C/PM on an Osborn, and the features – as far as typing, printing, and non-wysiwyg – were equal; so little overhead, so much production.

What is missing

In reply to I simply spotted he’d missed a product

Is that he stated that those were the ones that he used, not a collection of all the MS released versions..

I stand corrected

In reply to What is missing

that it makes it much more scientific 😀

Corporate internet access

In reply to Wasn’t that only a server issue OS – while the OP is dealing

What do you mean going? 60 percent of our staff only have E-mail. Other can only go to certain sites. In defense of my boss however, it is a work computer and the user doesn’t own it and etc etc etc.

> I think we’re about to see cases where
> people are going to lose corporate
> Internet access at the desk, and only
> outside contact will be via the mail
> server.

I’ve worked on systems on a number of business environments

In reply to Corporate internet access

and most have general Internet access available to their entire work force. Having it restricted to only a few is a rare practice now days. And the most common use by general staff I’ve seen, is for viewing video.

Not what i’ve seen

In reply to I’ve worked on systems on a number of business environments

I did a breakdown last week in surfcontrol and found that most people are shopping, then reading news, then using web mail. Streaming medias are way down on the list at our plant.

2003 is a Server issue but he also lumped NT in there

In reply to Wasn’t that only a server issue OS – while the OP is dealing

NT is a server OS as well.

NT also had a version for desktop use,

In reply to 2003 is a Server issue but he also lumped NT in there

as well as the server version.

Who Needs Video?

In reply to Wasn’t that only a server issue OS – while the OP is dealing

“Who needs every employee able to watch videos at their desk”

I can say that I work in a company that has webcasts, video conferencing, etc. that require everyone to have at least 1 media player to view the meetings/content.

While I agree that it is not neccisarily ‘needed’, I doubt that Internet access will be removed to stop people from watching video’s at most companies. Besides, if an employee does it too often, they will probably get fired.

DESKTOP OS ONLY

In reply to You missed out 2003

Must have been talking about desktop operating systems.

No such animal as Windows 2003

In reply to You missed out 2003

Surprised a programmer thinks there is/was a Windows 2003 .. glad you dont cut my code.

Vista will be a dog because Microsoft does not GIVE what the IT community wants. Vista is oh so SLOW – requires a major re-investment in hardware and software for no obvious benefits , merely builds on what Microsoft does do well and that is hype something out of nothing. In fact that is what most Americans are expert at hype and bull very short on actual substance and real improvements .. call me a cynic but I wont be making Microsoft richer till they fix what is broke in XP and give me a fast , foolproof and mujch simpler to operate system. PC’s were about doing things easier and faster .. this HAS NOT EVENTUATED.

Ken

Sorry, Unless we in Australia got a strange product, there was

In reply to No such animal as Windows 2003

it was for servers only, and sold as Windows 2003 for Servers, and Win 2003 for Advanced Servers. They released it as the server match for XP, but not at the exact same time.

There were FIVE 2003 versions

In reply to Sorry, Unless we in Australia got a strange product, there was

See my post below

http://tinyurl.com/sab96

EDIT: added link

Kiltie not to bright

In reply to There were FIVE 2003 versions

You must think IT people are stupid enough to click on your URL when we probably already know it goes to a porn site. Lets get back to the real world dude, the real conversation thats going on in this thread.

ROTFLMAO

In reply to Kiltie not to bright

Bloke wearing a skirt in thumbnail. Must be a cross dressing site. 😀

Not too bright indeed !

With that attitude Tony

In reply to ROTFLMAO

You had better not venture out on the Glaswegan streets late at night, unless your Ma’ can sew?

*** Stitch that!!!”

🙂 😉

hehe

Away to ***

In reply to ROTFLMAO

LOL
Lots of scots, local pub had an england vs scotland new year’s eve rugby game once, total carnage.
Still mates that evening, but during the game ]:)

But, on the other hand?

In reply to Kiltie not to bright

I can see your almost blank profile, and learn that you only made one post 2 and a half years ago.

But if you did likewise, you would soon see that I am an enthusiastic member of TR, with a lot to contribute, and quite active in trying to help other members with problems.

However, if you were bright enough of a techie you can click a link, knowing you have full protection systems backing you, then find that the link goes to a post later in this thread.

and if you were a sensitive kind of person, you may even blush for thinking what you just have.

EDIT: To add that [b][u][i]TinyURL[/i][/u][/b] links have nothing to do with penis size, whatever you may think, they are an [u][i]often used resource in Tech Republic.[/i][/u]

Go look ’em up, Go do something techie, and leave the rest of us in peace

Yeah!! You tell ’em, Kiltie!!

In reply to But, on the other hand?

Good job, mate!

:^0

blutiger is the not too bright

In reply to Kiltie not to bright

The link is a direct link to the place on THIS site where the listing is. tinyurl is a method/resource to give url shortcuts instead of the 438 character urls that often exist. The fact that you obviously spent most of your time with porn is not our problem…

OMG, ROTFLMFAO

In reply to blutiger is the not too bright

/me sets access permissons for BluTiger to technical, no porn sites, pics, files or adult contents, also sets access to a wider array of technical resources and turns on Parental control for his profile/account.

User is given permissions to access system 28hrs (yep, he needs more hours) a day to try and catch up to the techie world.

There you go BluTiger, there’s still a chance to catch up.

Steve, you’re bad man.
LMAO

not quite 438 characters

In reply to blutiger is the not too bright

but large enough.

There were 85 characters in the full link, whereas the tinyurl link has 24.

Fits on a page better, and you don’t get the “broken link” problem that many forums suffer from, although I understand TR has fixed this bug.

Anways, that’s why us Techies get used to both using and seeing tinyurls about, they are shorter, neater and go to show that the poster has at least put a little bit of effort into his contribution to make it easier for others.

You must just have bad habits…

In reply to Kiltie not to bright

…but, just to make sure I wasn’t left out, I went back and clicked on the tinyURL and it took me here:

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=203131&messageID=2115432

I’m sure I wasn’t as disappointed as you will be to see, … nothing but tech stuff, … well written, … with no porn watsoever. Your history must be so saturated that it just finds a porn site no matter what you click on. Bad OS, bad, bad OS.

Why thank you Ted

In reply to You must just have bad habits…

and others.

I did quite a bit of research, tracking down the resource links, and collating the bits. As I said, none of them were full timeline histories, although one came close.

I also spent quite a while with many drafts, checking what facts I could, but didn’t go as far as checking the sources of the sources – too much work lol.

Even so, it became a quite daunting task, so I cut off the start at QDOS, although there were very interesting histories concerning M$s “shady” history and alleged illegal business practices, but that is a whole ‘nother story in itself, and had no place in what I was trying to do.

When I saw the sheer plethora of Windows releases from Win2k onwards, I gave up trying to do a complete list, instead just giving typical examples. Even so, I may have missed out some versions, and some versions may be debatable as to whether they should be included, but on the whole I tried my best to supply a more complete list of versions, as many of the previous posts didn’t seem to know about many of those releases.

I was rather astonished at the sheer number of them, most I hadn’t heard of either, so the research I did, educated me as well.

So it wasn’t a “complete” list, hence the word (not) in my title.

I hope it helped some folk, maybe even distracted some from porn surfing for a while…..

**** wink ****

😀 😀 ;\ ;\ ]:)

Pardon ?

In reply to No such animal as Windows 2003

You want a choice ditch windows, until you do MS won’t give you one.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/default.mspx

MS don’t seem to agree with you !

So the question isn’t am I good enough to work for you but are you good enough to manage me?
Resounding No, up to press isn’t it?

If you insulted me simply because I missed “server” out, then your technical awareness is a moot point.

I understand completely…

In reply to No such animal as Windows 2003

… But I’m hoping you’re not planning on holding your breath.

I live here and try to work here, but it’s a negative culture on the fast-track to decline. Will we learn from these mistakes? I really doubt it. The general reliance is on the perception of intuitive superiority, and that, combined with exponential growth in willing ignorance, results in running into walls until something cracks, but not improvement.

That sounded great

In reply to I understand completely…

What did it mean though? 😀

As Red Skelton would say, …

In reply to That sounded great

I only read ’em, I don’t write ’em.

Only basackwards.

You may not like what I meant, but I was talking about the problems in the US with hype versus tangable quality; that I don’t see us making proper and necessary strides in the right directions – that is: making really better products instead of making crap which requires more crap to make it run as advertised.

I recall hearing with shock and dismay a man who asked me – nearly 10 years ago – if I thought Cisco was a good investment. When I quizzed him as to what he considered “good”, he said he wanted to invest in something that required constant replacement so profits would be assured for each piece sold.

The last thirty + years has seen the demise of the “American” auto “superiority” mixed with the exponential growth of hype. Now Ford, GM, and American Chrysler are not considered when discussing quality automobiles.

We have M$, which never put out a purely native product worth using, but bullied their way to the top by buying out or forcing out anyone who did produce reliable products. Most of the best products used were PC-Tools, WordStar, WordPerfect, Aldus publications products, etc.. were either gobbled up or run out of business. M$ got its start by bullying IBM, for crying out loud.

I work in a field where I daily see the product of our educational system, and it’s mostly hype and cover-up instead of real education. When I read someone who is dissatisfied with US hype, I can understand – as an insider.

That’s what I was trying to say. I’m sorry it doesn’t come out so clear, but I’m trying to soft-peddle a bit so I don’t sound like a traitor, just as a realist.

I recently viewed a great film, “Empty Cities”, by Moody Science. It predicted – in 1972 – what I am witnessing, up close and personal. I struggle to remain optomistic, but, as a user, I’m hopelessly frustrated by M$ and other hype-only products that I try to use to produce stuff – like videos.

It’s simple, but it’s passionately out of whack.

Sorry for my ramble/rant, but you wanted to know what I “said”, so I decided to put it another way. I would like to see real quality, but find – as with automobiles – it must come from somewhere else, and it usually has taken time historically, and I’m getting too old to wait.

Empty Cities?

In reply to As Red Skelton would say, …

Sounds like an interesting film, but there is no record of its existance at IMDB.
Where is it available?
Or is it?

Unfortunately, it’s no longer available!

In reply to Empty Cities?

I simply had a VHS copy of it from the 1970’s on VHS which just popped up in my basement, so I attempted capturing it, but something like 3000? dropped frames and it looks like a Charlie Chaplin reject – colour washed out and all, but the theme and presentation is exquisite.

I contacted Moody Science a few years ago and they said it’s no longer available. Don’t know what copyright would say about it or DRM, but stuff, … really good stuff from the ’70’s is extinct. Shame for sure!

It was produced and narrated by Dr. George Sweeny. Hope that helps.

The emoticon :D

In reply to As Red Skelton would say, …

indicated I wasn’t hassling you

Hype is a big problem.
They’ve got to do it, otherwise why would we spend our hard earned valuta on the next big thing. The next big thing being of course what they want us to buy so they can make money.

Home PCs are now a fashion statement. I bought mine as a tool and an entertainment. I like playing with computers especially programming, but I’m a very small market.

Go to be fair my first purchase of a real PC cost me a ?1000 (P200MMX 64M, 40 GB 15″ CRT), so the hype and marketing boys in their success reduced the price dramatically.

Hey, the button was there and active,…

In reply to The emoticon :D

I sometimes do write too carefully, and from my writer’s standpoint it makes perfectly good sense, but when read from the reader’s standpoint, it’s like art-nuveau. You’re not the first to wonder what was jiggling around inside my head – probably not the last; it’s when I “pull my punches” and refrain from really saying what I mean that I become vague and nebulous. Gotta stop that – I’m almost 60, so it’ll soon be too late, n’est ?e pas?
Besides, you complimented me before asking what I was saying, … that works for me!

To be Germain: I can’t see pouring more money down M$’s clogged drain$ for yet another $O$ when I have already spent more for 98/98SE/ME/XP than they ever proved worth. To me, the East can, will, and should put out a truly “non-legacy” computer with an Operating System that simply makes the machine run so that 3rd party programs can do their jobs without eccentric adaptation and workarounds.

I even would like to return to the heady daze when we plugged cartridges into ports in small units and those provided the OS compatable with the program on ROM – hard to pirate those little guys. Then we could have several computers, but only one or two cartridges for particular programs, and the question of EULA’s would no longer be valid; unplug it from this machine and put it on that one – complete program migration, no unauthorized copies; reduced incompatabilities; one copy works on one machine – change machines, OK, but only one copy left. If the cartridge fails, return it for a new one + upgrade (nominal fee) and you’re back on production. Next-day air would handle downtime. I can stand a 24-48 hour downtime when I’m not losing my production time to BSOD’s and “issues” and “fixes” ad nauseum; how about you???

surprised a IT Department Manager thinks 2003 doesn’t exist

In reply to No such animal as Windows 2003

Now i have no problem saying that a 2003 client does not exist, however the plain truth and facts are 2003 server is an OS created by MS, there is no doubting this. i run it on all 5 of my servers, you can’t say it doesn’t exist just because it suits you. I have no idea when you last used a computer but i know for a fact windows 2000 and subsequentally windows xp made my life as an admin a hell of a lot easier, not sure what you think is broke in XP either as i think it is extrememly stable, how often does it bluescreen on you???

Obviously you are a great coder too, if you are going to cut code you need to paste it too. but most real programmers just code it up themselves.

XP was perfectly OK, until they did a major downgrade with

In reply to surprised a IT Department Manager thinks 2003 doesn’t exist

the compulsory auto destruction system called WGA (Windows Garbage Attack) so that they could make more money by forcing people to pay for what they already have.

BSOD’s are the easy things with XP

In reply to surprised a IT Department Manager thinks 2003 doesn’t exist

It’s when you are running several thousand XP Pro systems on a volume license and every time that a Service Pack becomes available you have to change the product keys over because the SP insists that the copy installed of XP isn’t genuine, that becomes slightly tiresome and [b]Very Time Consuming![/b]

Then there is [b]WGA[/b] which when released required another product key change as the product key that MS had issued less than a month previously was no longer recognised as a genuine Product Key. Is known to cause problems in at least 20% of Genuine Product.

I’ve even seen Action Pack Copies crippled by WGA but as they come direct from MS they are most likely Pirate Copies so they don’t count right?

But try this out for fun turn off Automatic Updates on a fully patched XP SP2 box leave it turned off for 60 days and see what happens when you try to restart it.

Then ring MS and get a solution from them to fix up the problem that has been created instead of spending about 1 hour doing an In Place Install you’ll be wasting close to 13 hours doing a repair install and then fixing what the repair broke but that will require another Job Number to be issued by MS because the Breakages are not caused by the WGA fault but by the Repair Install. I honestly spent at least 5 hours on the phone to MS over a 3 day period just to get these destructions. Now I know better but as this isn’t a [b]Normal[/b] repair as the actual owner is now dead and I’m just maintaining the system for the wife so that she has records for Tax Reasons just in case the estate is Audited I didn’t want this happening again.

The end result is that next time I have to go there I’ll blow away the installation of XP reinstall the base OS apply SP1 and leave it at that with just a free AV product in place just in case they actually use the computer some time again this year again.

Col

Wow. Who keeps E-Bay-ing your product keys? ;)

In reply to BSOD’s are the easy things with XP

Don’t worry. They are going to fix that one for you in Vista. Even corp. users will get to enjoy the magical thrill of product activation. I can hardly contain my excitement, personally.

Me Neither

In reply to Wow. Who keeps E-Bay-ing your product keys? ;)

That’s why I’m checking myself into Hospital to be cured from the newly discovered disease [b]Information Overload.[/b]

It just doesn’t bear thinking about does it? 🙁

Col

No such IT manager as ramnet@

In reply to No such animal as Windows 2003

Surprised an IT Manager thinks there was not a Windows 2003 .. glad you don’t manage my enterprise.

I thought Australians spoke English

In reply to No such animal as Windows 2003

. ‘Vista is oh so SLOW’
How long have you been using it to make that assumption, and why do you have to slam Americans?

Well I have to agree

In reply to I thought Australians spoke English

VISTA is so SLOW on the same hardware as other OS’s. But I don’t have much experience with it as I’ve only been playing with it since MS released it in Beta Form. In another 10 years I might be able to say something definitive about what I think about it. That is if I can remember Vista then as according to MS they are releasing a Major SP every 2 years and a new OS every 4 years so lets say Vista finally gets released in 2007 so sometime from 2009 to 2010 there will be a Major SP for Vista and then sometime from 2011 to 2012 there will be a new OS to replace Vista though MS may chose to call it Vista Ultimate [i]Insert the correct version here[/i] Version 2 so that people will continue to buy their product. Time will tell on this one depending on how well Vista is accepted by the market initially and how widely it is adopted.

If it takes off like an express train they can justify using a new name for the next OS that they make and if sales are slow they will need to make out that they have just upgraded Vista to make it work better like Windows NT3 to 3.5 to 4 or 98 to 98SE.

Personally I think that thee is too much built in that is not possible to remove for a business OS but as a Games Platform it looks great.

Col

Vista is slow on the majority of systems currently in use

In reply to I thought Australians spoke English

and the people being commented on are the MS management, marketing, and coders – the individuals who are responsible for this Application. Unlike past systems where you had an operating system with a few applications included, Vista is a whole swag of applications with a little bit of operating system included.

The fact that the majority of people being bagged for their poor work, are from the USA is a minor point, and not that relevant to the discussions of their work.

Now, all of a sudden it’s not M$, but Amurakan ba$h???

In reply to I thought Australians spoke English

What profound logic: M$ = America/America = M$???

If it’s good, it’s good; conversely if it has a history of crappy behavior, and the company has a history of bullying and force and all that M$ is well-known for, … world wide; … so be it.

Are you saying that America is the justification for, … Wait! I’ve got it: “America Uber Alles!!!” Gotcha. Doesn’t matter if the products are good, bad, or indifferent, if they come from America, they’re simply sacred (unquestionably right). I live here, was born here, have lived from coast to coast and in between. Listen up, world: I drive a used Toyota, and you know why? Because it still runs after 100,00 miles; I can still get parts for them, mechanics can fix what’s wrong with them. I prefer my used Toyota to my daughter’s new Ford (I got the Toyota from her).

Why? Because I’m anti-American??? No. I do not have BG’s $ta$h, so I must buy carefully and I must be able to rely on something that lasts. I have bought Chrysler/Dodge products, but only because they run well and they last, and they have Mitsubishi to thank for that.

When Americans persist in putting crap over quality; when they insist that making the customer buy more just to make the first purchase run as advertised; when they won’t invest in a company who does not demonstrate the dedication to breakdown, again forcing the customer (read victim) to buy more to make up for inefficient (and designedly so) parts and service; then Americans deserve slamming.

When we produce and distribute quality, we will be heralded for that accomplishment; not unless and until. What you have demonstrated is not “Loyalty”, but “Vanity” (emptyness). It does not make you look very smart, and embarrasses the rest of us. Dedicate yourself to Truth, beauty, quality, and your only enemies will be those who oppose those things. Of course that will mean being one of us, and perhaps that’s too bitter for you just now, but – hopefully you will grow, learn, and change.

Wish I knew what you were talking about

In reply to Now, all of a sudden it’s not M$, but Amurakan ba$h???

This is what I was talking about:
‘In fact that is what most Americans are expert at hype and bull very short on actual substance and real improvements .. ‘
That would be no different than me saying ‘most black people do this, or most Jews do that’

I drive foriegn cars for the same reason you do BTW

So do I…

In reply to Wish I knew what you were talking about

I wish you knew what I was talking about.

If people perceive (rightly, I think) that Americans are expert at hype and bull, and very short on actual substance and real improvements, it’s because that’s what they have experienced repeatedly. It’s what I have experienced repeatedly since the ’60’s. Even in the ’80’s, I was repairing appliances, including vacuum cleaners, but today the crap that’s sold – especially in the high priced bracked – is really worse than things made in the ’50’s. There’s some modest “improvement”, but the lost basic usability more than subtracts from the overall acceptability. Cars, same thing.

Saying “most” do this or that is based upon one’s perspective, I’ll agree, but there simply is not enough going on to balance the equation enough that the general public is not justified in their assessments. Unless and until the US brings forth better products in great quantity, this perspective will continue and grow – as it has the past 20 years or so.

You drive the same foreign cars for “the same reason”? What’s your complaint? What don’t you understand?

Also missed…

In reply to You missed out 2003

Also missing is Windows 2.0 which was the first exposure I had to M$

Win2.0 wasn’t an OS

In reply to Also missed…

The first two versions of Windows were not positioned as operating systems. They were created as add-on environment to lure Mac developers into a GUI environment for the PC. Windows 2 wasn’t normmally sold separately — you usually got it bundled with Pagemaker or some other GUI intensive program. (Anyone out there remember Digital Research’s competing GUI, GEOS?)

For that matter, the Windows 3.x versions weren’t marketed as an OS either. They were still sold as add-ons to MS DOS 6.x, though unlike the predecessors, Win3.x was the first sold on its own, unbundled. You still had to buy DOS 6.x, though.

Win NT was the first Windows-as-OS product (Gates said in an interview that WinNT would have been OS/2 if they hadn’t split with IBM over the direction to take with it). Win95 was the first home version positioned as an OS, but underneath it was still basically Windows 4.0 over DOS 7. They made it so you couldn’t just boot to DOS directly.

[b]GEOS[/b]

In reply to Win2.0 wasn’t an OS

No haven’t seen that one since I last went looking for something on floppies. 😀

I can guarantee that if I wanted to find my copy I wouldn’t be able to quickly though but if I’m looking for something else it always seems to be one of the first things that I run across. :^0

Col

what?

In reply to You missed out 2003

umm there was no windows 2003. I dont know what your speaking of but XP was the last incarnation of windows my friend.

P.S. I’m completely brainwashed by bill gates and I’ve been using Vista for months and have yet to be really impressed.

Well normally I’d bow to your definitive expertise

In reply to what?

but you are wrong according to Microsoft.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/default.mspx

oops

2K3 – I think so!

In reply to what?

TechieTim in Networking / LAN Administration – yeah right. 1000 lines “There is a Windows 2003 and it is a Server” then get back to class BOY!

P.S Not so brainwashed as you thought then…

Couple of merges too

In reply to You missed out 2003

A couple of OS’s were merged aswell, Win 98 & NT (is that NT 3.1, 3.51 or 4???)NT also had a completely different kernel from 98.
And since when did Win 2K release at the same time as XP? XP may have a selectable Classic interface that looks like 2K but it aint 2K.
All this means the pattern is a bit .. shot to bits.
Upto now I like the feel of Vista, but it does seem power hungary on the spec of PC needed to run it properly.

Early version of Windows

In reply to You missed out 2003

I remember the original Windows, just called Windows, then came Windows 286 and then Windows 386. That all came before Windows 3.0

missed 2003

In reply to You missed out 2003

Well, conveniently so as to give credbiblity to his theory.. n way. give the poor kid a break…

they also skipped 2000

In reply to You missed out 2003

So that makes it bad

2003 is a server based product. HELLO

In reply to You missed out 2003

Dude he was only comparing the desktop OS’s not server class. 2003 is server class. Technically that would still fall under 2000/XP since 2003 is just Windows XP server.

So was 2000

In reply to 2003 is a server based product. HELLO

Goodbye

2000 and XP not a single product

In reply to You missed out 2003

Using the logic 2000 was good and XP bad would make Vista good.

2003?

In reply to You missed out 2003

2003 isn’t an operating system.

What exactly do you consider

In reply to 2003?

a server OS? If it’s not an OS, then how do you explain what it is that a server platform runs on? -d

You are quite right

In reply to 2003?

it’s a number isn’t it.

Silly me.

I guess we are just discussing Client OS

In reply to You missed out 2003

i think he missed 2003, sinc eit is not the client OS. Aren’t we just discussing client Os and not Server OS

I guess we are just discussing Client OS

In reply to You missed out 2003

2003 is not a client OS. May be thats why he did not mention it.

GO BACK FURTHER

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

MSDOS (DOS 1) WAS GOOD, THOUGH CPM86 WAS BETTER. DOS 2 WAS DREADFUL.

Wow!

In reply to GO BACK FURTHER

You can remember Dos 1.0? I have a visual image of old time techies in tweed jackets gathered around a small flickering screen in a darkened room…

Old timers

In reply to Wow!

Plenty of us still out there that have been through all of DOS and Windows. And in my case early Apple operating systems..ahh the joys of ProDos and 5 Mb Profile hard disks the size of a loaf of bread.

What I have learned is to do your risk assessment before anything else. ‘What ifs?’ can save your sanity, and maybe prevent early hair loss in the younger members, and Rogaine for the rest of us relics.

But speaking as one who has been around for a while…. I LOVE IT! The challenge alone and pace of change keep the noodle ticking.

And BTW I NEVER wore a tweed jacket. I much preferred a white dust coat and grimey pocket protector, coke bottle thick glasses, and slide rule in the back pocket. Tweed was for those english techs.

Note also that there were no screens to gather around. Punch card terminals and toggle switches on front panels to load software did however give me a hunch 🙂

Cheers

Old timer myself and Vista will wait…

In reply to Old timers

I never wore a tweed jacket either but loved my white dust coat and very grimey pocket protector and enjoyed all the changes from DOS to Windows and the XP versions 1, 2 etc.

However, in the past 5 years, with the explosion of internet users and viruses and gazillion Microsoft patches, switching to Vista will wait… I’m in no hurry to get into another round of patching and re-patching MS patches with Vista.

Shucks, Back In The 40’s

In reply to Old timers

We had only ONE choice…..BS 1.0, and the only screens we had to look at was the screens on the windows, not the Windows on the screens.
We just shot pirates and locked up burglars, and if we got a virus we just went to the doctor, we didn’t have to pay a ransome.

we wore tshirts then, too

In reply to Wow!

The tweed jackets were the old stoagies that told us that computers would never be mainstream or that “windows is just a fad”.

old school

In reply to we wore tshirts then, too

DEC Tape and paper tape. No option or module swaps. 16 K system were hot.

Edlin 1.0

In reply to old school

loaded from a cassette tape, took 15 minutes. no documentation.

Edlin in Minneapolis

In reply to Edlin 1.0

On the western edge of the city of Minneapolis here in Minnesota there is a street sign that says, “TO EDLIN PL.” Yes, there is a street (or “Place”) named Edlin – and yes, it is a dead end street. :o)

Edlin

In reply to Edlin in Minneapolis

What, you guys don’t use edlin anymore? 🙂

I booted up my CP/M system the other day the try to retrieve some data and couldn’t remember how PIP worked. But I did accomplish my task, reading an almost 25 year old 8″ floppy with a dBase II database and eventually pulling the data into MS Access. I got most of it too!

Anybody remember the first double-sided 8″ floppy disks – the ones you had to pull out and flip over to store data on the “double side”?

Punch cards and paper tape, blah. The first PC’s were the real revolution.

Anecdotage

In reply to Wow!

Hmm, DOS 2.0 – that was the 5 and a quarter disks with the sort of pink, label, wasn’t it?

My first experience with DOS was when out lecturers excitedly announced that they’ve got a new IBM PC for the Computer Studies Dept, but could we please shut ourselves in with to the room with a manual and work out how to format a floppy disc so that they could start to use it.

Ah, after changes, we are more or less the same, as Simon & Garfunkel once observed…

no ticket tape folks!

In reply to Anecdotage

Still miss programming flash memories, on z90 and 8086 processors, and for kicks, printing (aka punching holes)on ticker tapes to see what went wrong where… nothing like taking the time to debug one instruction at a time….

Remember this?!?

In reply to Anecdotage

I can dimly remember back in the mid 80’s,(I think)when the Winchester Salesman/Technician Installer arrived at our Facility, – which should remain nameless to protect the guilty, -but the initials are:(DOD/USN), everyone was soooo excited… He had brought along a !NEW! ‘Winchester’ Disk (20- inch metal O.D. ring covered with magnetic ‘magic pixie dust’), to install for a ‘HardDrive Upgrade’ on our old UNix (Fortan – my cheater notes binder weighed a whopping 8 pounds!)originally it used Data Punch Cards, w/ Reel to Reel Magnetic Tape. – “Yessir, THIS babys gonna bring ya’ll right up into the SPACE AGE! THIS HERE is called a Winchester Disk,… THAT big enclosure is the Harddrive for it to run in… Why, I GUARANTEE you’ll NEVER run out of hard drive space! – Man, THIS thing holds a whole MegaByte of Information! Never fill That up in a whole lifetime!” – our Federal Tax Dollars at work…

In the 1980’s I worked for 3rd party mainframe maintenance co

In reply to Remember this?!?

And spent many thousands on 300 MB disc pack, that used 12 inch platters, and stood as high as a bottle of milk. Bought hundreds for client. Also did huge memory ypgrades, putting chips in that were the size of most people’s thumbs, they had a whole 2 KB of ram each – the memory boards used about 50 each, ahd to replace all on the board at once.

even had an early micro computer, used two, wow, two brand new 5.25 inch floppies, one for the program, and one for data. the previous years version used a 12 inch floppy.

Yeah, I remember…

In reply to In the 1980’s I worked for 3rd party mainframe maintenance co

I had to ressurect an IBM System 26/32; 8″ Floppies w/120v Disc systems. The 13-26″ copper “Hard Drives” that could walk the entire system out the door if they got out of balance.

What great daze, huh?

Ahhh, but!

In reply to Remember this?!?

Do you recall WHY it was called a Winchester disk?

Actually, I’ve heard two stories, possibly related. One was that the first Winchester cabinet consisted of dual 30MB platters and the lead developer was a gun enthusiast (Winchester 30-30, of course).

The other tale is that it was developed at IBM’s Winchester, England laboratory.

Unfortunately I don’t recall which one’s true. Maybe both…

Ahhh, but! MayBe???

In reply to Ahhh, but!

I’d overheard(long ago…and far, far away…)That the Company name WAS ‘Winchesrter’ and were out of are you ready for this… – Hartford, Conn. USA – However, I never thought to check and see if that was correct. To busy trying to save the world – one Byte at a time.

Two slightly different reasons

In reply to Ahhh, but!

But all seem to agree on it being named after the rifle.
The differences are:
One says it was because of the twin 30MB platters.
The other because it was down to the 30MB storage and 30 ms access time.

Here are some sample quotes, together with sources that I found on a brief search.

———————————-

Winchester disk
n.
An early type of hard disk.

[After the Winchester, tradename for a .30-30 rifle, a rifle shooting a .30-caliber bullet with a powder grain size designation of 30 (from the disk’s storage capacity of 30 MB and its access time of 30 milliseconds).]

http://www.answers.com/topic/winchester-disk

——————————————-

Winchester disk drive Last modified: Friday, March 21, 2003

Another term for hard disk drive. The term Winchester comes from an early type of disk drive developed by IBM that had 30MB of fixed storage and 30MB of removable storage; so its inventors called it a Winchester in honor of its 30/30 rifle. Although modern disk drives are faster and hold more data, the basic technology is the same, so Winchester has become synonymous with hard.

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/W/Winchester_disk_drive.html

——————————————

[b][i][I like this next one ‘cos it also gives an explanation for why the famous rifle was itself called a 30/30)[/i][/b]

The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

Winchester disk

NOUN: An early type of hard disk.
ETYMOLOGY: After the Winchester, tradename for a .30-30 rifle, a rifle shooting a .30-caliber bullet with a powder grain size designation of 30 (from the disk’s storage capacity of 30 MB and its access time of 30 milliseconds).

——————————————

[b][i]This is my favourite, as it comes from IBM own online history and includes a quote[/i][/b]

[ ……. ]

[i]* Some observers have noted that the 3340 was known as “Winchester” because its development engineers called it a “30-30” (its two spindles each had a disk capacity of 30 megabytes), the common name of a rifle manufactured by the Winchester Company. Kenneth E. Haughton, who led the 3340 development effort, is reported to have said: [b]”If it’s a 30-30, then it must be a Winchester.”[/b][/i]

http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3340.html

You’re all newbies

In reply to Wow!

I started with main memory of 8Kb, yes bits not 8KB nickel delay line memory, 250KB magnetic drum, paper tape input and all valve(tubes for US readers) electronics in ’63. My wife calls me a newbie as she started programming in ’59. Sold Intel 4004s in ’71, 8008 in ’72, 8080 in ’73 all with Intel development kits SIM401, SIM801 then into Intellec 80’s. First HD on an Intel development system for me was in ’78, a 5MB DRI (Data Recording Instruments) later to be absorbed into ICL.

CP/M and DOS 1.0 had little to choose between them DOS 2.0 allowed for HDD with a few other enhancements the rest has been said.

Yes I did wear Tweed but not ’til much later when I came out of management and went back to being a techie in the late ’80s, because it was more interesting and less political.

Oh, by the way

In reply to You’re all newbies

do you remember the first time you heard of a “mouse”….. hahahahahahaha

before that we had to type uphill both ways to get there

Mouse?

In reply to Oh, by the way

We used to set traps for them. Caught a few, too.

LOL

In reply to Mouse?

Ole Man,

Same here, Still do today just using more sophisticated solutions because they got smarters and started running on Windows and was multi-tasking – lol.

What can I say, I miss DOS 🙁

The Suite

Hmmm

In reply to You’re all newbies

And I thought I was old! OK I admit: ‘I’m not worthy, I’m not worthy, I’m not worthy,…

newbies

In reply to You’re all newbies

Anyone recall writting Colbat and Fortran programs? A one megabtye hard drive was 6 12 inch disk on a machine the size of a gas pump? When tape and punch cards ruled the world?

Oh that was Newbie work

In reply to newbies

I personally didn’t bother with that new fangled stuff as I didn’t think that it would last. 😀

Then I saw Basic and got really scared. 🙁

Col

I think a copy of “Desk Set” is a must for true training…

In reply to newbies

Spencer Tracey / Kate Hepburn and Emerac (Emmy) are great to show the true “legacy” of the present day “wonders”.
I use old textbooks of those old “dinosaurs” when I teach a class I lovingly (but not jokingly) call, “You gotta believe me when I tell you, ‘You don’t need to know what I’m about to teach you'”.

I then go into the real history of punch cards and paper tapes and reel-to-reel tape systems and the blinking lights and show the umbelievable correlation between the punch card 256? bytes which is still the basis of todays high-speed computing. It’s a hoot, but it’s valuable to see why today’s glutted programs behave as badly as they do.

Don’t get us oldies started…

In reply to Wow!

I remember when they invented 8 inch floppy disks that held 128K of data. A lot easier than paper tape so data input and storage …

Flintstone Computers?

In reply to Don’t get us oldies started…

Stone box with a little bird pecking out bits and bytes on a stone HDD…hampster or other rodent providing power. Mainframes with small chimps using an abacus in a large box… To upgrade your O/S you get a smarter chimp… my mind was warped by the Flintstones when I was a child.

And that is most likely where Vista will take the Business Masses

In reply to Flintstone Computers?

But instead of requiring floors of space for that Mainframes they will fit in a room the size of a [b]Broom Closet[/b] and instead of using [b]Dumb Terminals[/b] we will be using these new fangled [b]Thin Clients.[/b]

I’m using more and more of these things as time goes by with a decent OS on some great Hardware be it Unix, Linux, BSD or whatever anything except Windows all packed into a small box in an even smaller AC room and lots of wires running out to the terminals.

But this time some [b]Gun Typist[/b] will not be able to crash the entire system every time that she wants a coffee break.

If anything MS is contributing to the demise of the desktop in a lot of business by their over priced under valued Licensing arrangements.

I’ve been selling MS product since they started & I’m still not totally sure what the [b]Licensing Requirements[/b] are this week. Thankfully MS has a lovely young woman who I tell what is required and she does all the hard work I just pay for what I’m told that I need. 😀

Col

… And do remember, … Paper Punches???

In reply to Don’t get us oldies started…

They tried to tell us that paper punches + flipping floppies would damage our reading heads, but I never had to replace any 5.25 drives in any of my Osbornes, … did you?

Why not start at the beginning of Microsoft’s treacherous history?

In reply to GO BACK FURTHER

It isn’t surprising that DRI* CP/M-86 was better. It was DRI’s port of the popular CP/M series for the 8086/88 chip. But DRI wouldn’t sell all the rights for pennies so Microsoft contracted with a fella across town to port an older CP/M to the 8086/88 and Microsoft sold that to IBM instead. So IBM got beef instead of filet mignon. The whole sordid history is laid out here (http://www.joewein.de/dri.html).

I am glad to see that Microsoft was later forced to cough up a few bucks … probably a bittersweet victory of sorts for Gary Kildall … especially after Microsoft had all the hard evidence destroyed (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/05/22/sco_pulps_calderams_trial_archives/). As Sir Walter Scott said, “Oh what tangled webs we weave …”

* DRI = Digital Research Inc

C/PM, those who knew it, … Loved it.

In reply to Why not start at the beginning of Microsoft’s treacherous history?

What the Osborn could do with C/PM and the OZROM (EPROM). “Boot” in 17 seconds and I was into my document and typing. It was a vast improvement over the paper tape reels I used with the Frieden Just-O-Writer, but I could still make spelling corrections by running the tape reader and punch system until I arrived at the correction needed, then move the reader ahead while I punched the proper string.

WordStar! Wow! SuperCalc (Sorcim) with three files linked: 1. Formulae, 2. Values, 3. Programming. Then dBASE II2.3b; what a marvel! Nothing like ’em before, and nothing like ’em again (I hate SQL).

M$ pirated the market, but those of us who knew and worked with quality will never forget, nor forgive. I could spend 90% of my time producing. Today 80% i$ lo$t to ma$$ive, intru$ive, maintainence ju$t to satisfy the collap$e of M$ O$.

If I could have an Osborn with video/audio facilities, I’d never give M$ another look (and don’t tell me M$ made A/V possible; they stole that from the real brains).

You got that right, Ted!

In reply to C/PM, those who knew it, … Loved it.

I also remember when we spent 90% of our time working; the rest waiting for the hardware to catch up! 😉

Now I have a new H-P Pentium D with 2GB RAM and Micro$oft XP Media Edition … and it still takes longer to boot up than it does to type a typical letter. And every week Micro$oft is downloading and installing more security updates and such; since they didn’t get it right the first time.

And the time spent in the corner office (now that $400/hr managers have replaced $20/hr secretaries) arranging margins and paragraph formats just has to be seen to be believed. Even as a lowly technician it would never have ocurred to me to do all that formatting … isn’t that the secretary’s job anyhow?!?!

Speaking of WordStar and SuperCalc (both head and shoulders above the crowd but unfortunately lacking the proper marketing folks) … another rock solid tool was Borland’s Reflex. What a gem. Still use it today (except on this XP Media Edition machine as Micro$oft has scrambled a character table somewhere and finally killed the DOS compatibility). As if their Acce$$ could ever touch it for usability.

MICROSOFT OS STATUS

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I am fully agree with you. I checked all the MicroSoft OS in different Hardware.

Aditya Kumar
785/2, Shastri Nagar,
Meerut (India)
PATNI COMPUTER LTD.INDIA.

Slight modification

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I would just modify (slightly) your description on the Windows ME line (a.k.a. Windows Miserable Edition or Major Embarrassment).

Windows ME: Incredibly, horribly BAD

Vista Doomed?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Your proposal leaves out too many other versions:-

Windows 98: BAD
Windows 908SE: GOOD
Windows NT: GOOD
Windows 2000: GOOD
Wiondows XPSP1:BAD
Windows XPSP2: GOOD
Windows Vista: GOOD?
Windows ?????: GOOD

My experience of VISTA now that I have installed Candidate 1 is quite good, their are certain features I don’t like and one hopes that manufactures will be able keep up with the new regime, but with Office 2007 and IE7, VISTA runs sweet.

Really depends on the system one sets it up on, but cheapy stuff and you get a cheapy result!
Roy-the-Boy

Your proposal ALSO leaves out some variables…

In reply to Vista Doomed?

Just my two cents, feel free to disagree… as much of this was when I was still in elem – mid school I was NOT in the field… but for home use, these are my ratings.

DOS as far as I can remember DOS was great, but then all I did was destroy my computer teaching myself about how HEX editors worked and such worked. Damn kids, break stuff too much. 🙂

Windows 1 (anybody remember that? No windows, just menus) *this was before my time but I did download it once.
Windows 3.x (ALL SUCKED)
Windows 95 SUCKED
Windows 98 SUCKED
Windows 98se Better, but SUCKED
Windows NT Decent
Windows ME COMPLETELY BLEW
Windows 2000 OK, but not great
Windows XP SUCKED
Windows XP sp1 SUCKED
Windows XP sp2 almost getting better….
Windows Vista ???? can we say prolly SUX!
Windows Vista sp1 ???? See above
Windows Vista sp2 ???? Lets give them the benefit of the doubt… Should be Decent. ??

My 2 Cents

In reply to Your proposal ALSO leaves out some variables…

I go back to to OSs with no name that ran on tape. I’ve run just about every DOS/Windows, including HDOS. Best of all time was NT. Would run 24/7 forever without crashing. XP SP2 is second, assuming it’s properly tuned.

NT was great, but…

In reply to My 2 Cents

I found NT to be very good OS as long as you did not install anything that was not on the original install disks. Once you installed, for example, MS Office, then it became instantly unreliable. Win2k was what win98 was promised to be, and XP…well I still have to reformat the HD and reinstall everything from scatch every 1.5 to 2 years. If this was my only judgment criteria, then any MS OS other than DOS “suck”.

Windows 1?

In reply to Your proposal ALSO leaves out some variables…

I don’t recall there being a Windows 1 or Windows 2. IIRC, Windows/286 was the first, followed by Windows 386 (when things started to come alive – compared to what we had before then!). Windows 3.0 was the first version of Windows as we know it, and it was numbered 3 because of the previous 286 and 386 versions.

I do disagree with your rating of 98, especially 98SE. Lots of BSODs as I recall, but far, far better than 95. Similarly, I’ve a slightly softer memory of all XP versions.

I think, thought, we also have to factor in the hardware base we were running these things on. Single floppy 4.77 Mhz PCs, anyone? Even going to a twin floppy was a quantum leap, and what excitement we had when out IT department all got shiny new IBM ATs with a 16MHz chip. It’s not really fair to compare operating systems (and early Windows versions weren’t really OSs because they ran under DOS) because our machines are a lifetime away from the old steam powered crocks we had in the mid-80s. My PDA has more processing power than the whole college had when I was learning the profession!

Says he, only 42 on Monday and sounding like a dinosaur himself…

Steve

I’m a dinosaur?

In reply to Windows 1?

LOL I remember 286 and 386. I still have my manual and floppys for 3.3, and back in my college days, my computer programming classmate gave me his 5.0 disks so I could upgrade to the “rest of the world”! (I think he liked me 😉 hehe, and today, they have locked software so we can’t do that). It doesn’t seem that long ago that I laid to rest, that beautiful black with green letters monitor.
I have two boxes of floppies with information that I need to transfer to the new age and even better, I have programs on the big 5.25’s in a box in my closet!
YIKES!
What I’m having a hard time remembering, is when the internet first appeared. I don’t know if I got it when it first came out or if I had to wait, but I remember my big, bright blue eyes, excitement and hunger when I first hooked up and saw information I’d never have known existed and real moving pictures on my screen! lol It took forever to get that stuff to load compared to the cable I have now, but I didn’t notice that then. lol
So to all you dinosaurs out there, a big wink and a grin!

Windows 2

In reply to Windows 1?

I do not recall Windows 1 but I actually still have a copy of Windows 2 in the box on 5.25 diskettes. It was not a very friendly system.

Happy Birthday!

In reply to Windows 1?

Coincidence, I’ll tack one on next Monday 10/30 as well. A bit older though. I was 23 when you arrived and had been in IT (or whatever it was called back then) for 7 years by then.

I recall all of the PC history you mentioned. I agree with your assessment of Win98, that was bad news. Never even bothered with it nor with ME either. I don’t know how Win2k and WinXP are couples together as one release. Both are ‘good’ releases.
I don’t think this ‘alternative releases’ theory is being forceed a bit.

Guess I must be pre-dinosaur then

In reply to Windows 1?

As your only 4 yrs older than my daughter and I was 26 when she was born.
By the way Windows 95/98/98SE/Me all ran on dos. Also Windows 2k/XP was on NT kernal just later editions.
Vista is based on Server 2003 kernal.
Mike

And your “proposal” just simply sucks

In reply to Your proposal ALSO leaves out some variables…

I mean seriously, if they all sucked so damn bad as you say, why do you even bother? When Vista does release, why don’t you just skip it and stay in your probably (not “prolly”) stagnated hole and wallow in self pity?

As for the versions themselves and all of this ranting…from who’s perspective are we really looking at here? the users? the admins? This “Doomed from the start?” scenario started actually with the service packs (NTSP1 worked, SP2 broke things, SP3 fixed them again, SP4 broke more things, SP5 fixed them again, etc) that went along NT server versions and the OP has lumped several versions together for the sake of convenience to rant some more. No content.

As for one that really did grow up through the Windows versions (and launched Win95), I have at least a little more content and input to my own opinion…and it’s just that, an OPINION. I will lump it together as such:

User Perspective —
Dos 1.0 — we were all going to be rich
Dos 2.0 — nobody became rich
Dos 3.0 — now we realized who was going to be rich and it wasn’t us
Dos 3.1 — at least it worked
Dos 4.x — damn, it used to work
Dos 5.0 — hey, new features!
Dos 5.1 — hey, the new features actually work cool now!
Dos 6.0 — no improvements
Dos 6.1 — damn, they broke it
Dos 6.22 — finally!
Windows 1 & 2 (i missed these somehow, so I have no opinion)
Windows 3.0 — sucked, yes, but it was better than BBS doors
Windows 3.1 — improvement from the user perspective
Windows 3.11 — networking? wow!
Windows 95 — Finally!!!
Windows 95a/b/c/d — wtf?!
Windows 98 — win95e?
Windows 98SE — ok
Windows ME — yes, I skipped this too; the bounce was so hard it was easy to say “i won’t support this version, move up or down”
Windows 2000 Pro — NTFS, finally some security for the user!
Windows XP — finally some security for the home user!
Windows XPSP1 — ok, at least they’re trying
Windows XPSP2 — finally some real security…but alas, thanks to advanced genuinity, the pirates are still infecting the others thru email and Home Edition users are frustrated with home networking
Vista — the viruses are still in email

From the Admin Perspective —
Windows NT 3.0 — at least there’s a GUI
Windows NT 3.5 — GUI still sucks but at least it’s more stable and secure
Windows NT4 — wtf?
Windows NT4SP1 — fixes, good
Windows NT4SP2 — dammit
Windows NT4SP3 — fixes
Windows NT4SP4 — dammit AND wtf?!
Windows NT4SP5 — whew! finally some functionality and fixes
Windows NT4SP6 — skipped, we’re learning
Windows NT4SP6.1 — told ya
Windows 2000 Server — at least I can control the user workstations better
Windows 2000 Server SP1 thru SP4 — there’s a pattern here
Windows 2003 Server — continue the pattern, SP1 fixes, SP2 breaks
Longhorn (Ultimate) — well, at least it has everything despite being quirky
Longhorn SP2 — this is the time to jump in

agreed…

In reply to And your “proposal” just simply sucks

…mostly…with a very small exception.

i missed windows 1,2,3, win95 a,c,and d, as well as every DOS before 6 so i can’t really offer a opinion on them. i do have dos 6.22 somewhere around here. haven’t played with the other DOSs. windows 3.1 was ok.. not great but still ok
Win95 hey, a taskbar..
win95b cool, USB support( at this point it still ran pretty good.)
Windos XP SP2 – great ATTEMPT at security. as far as actually achieving it.. they fell short…I find myself wondering; “when are they releasing sp3?” Lesson here? the only secure PC is one NOT connected to any network that happens to have internet access.
they kinda shot themselves in the foot when they tried passing off WGA as a security update. many costumers left for linux because of it *raises his hand* Kubuntu and ubuntu are great for beginners by the way. WGA kinda stepped on my last nerve.

DOS 2.11 & 6.x

In reply to And your “proposal” just simply sucks

2.11 was where I started at home. It was on a dual floppy disc PC-7000. It worked, … sometimes. Sun spots destroyed most of my documents – good thing I had backups. (Sun spots affected the CPU/DOS so it would write noise to the FAT.)
I tried the 3.x series, but until I was using a HDD, it was totally unnecessary.
I wrote in dBASE II 2.3b; 3; 3+; and ?-tested IV (the infamous summer of ’88). I produced bookkeeppiinngg programs and a few accounting programs (although Champion did a great job out of the box).
When DOS 6.0 was released, I advised clients in several states to upgrade from 20mb HDD’s to 80mb, and switch from DOS 3.3 to 5. I cautioned them to back up all their data, and I strongly warned them not to use DOS 6.0.
Without exception, their resellers installed DOS 6.0 and did not backup. In less than one week, all my programs and all their usable data was lo$t, truncated by DO$ malfunctions.

I quit then and there, deciding I could not compete with Gates and his hordes. I have never regretted that day, nor do I ever intend to return to programming/consulting again.

Those who think they like(d) anything from Redmond really never lived with real working DOS like C/PM or DEC/VAX. It’s good to read today’s posts from those who knew life back when one could think and produce – knowing that a well-written program would work reliably; not now when OS’es rampage through anything near them wreaking havoc and caring le$$, promi$ing a better product later. It’$ been too long to tru$t M$ ever again.
To me Vi$ta i$ doomed becau$e those of us who knew and worked with quality will avoid M$, but those who are still ignorant – or $tupid will look forward to the next fia$co with great eagerne$$ and anticipation.

…Been there, done better before.

I’ll drink to that!

In reply to And your “proposal” just simply sucks

Hey, not a bad list! I make a motion that this becomes the new list for discussion. Any posts regarding the original list be deleted by the MPU, and we start over.

You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Remember Microsoft Bob (1995)? Bob was so bad that not only did it totally flop, Microsoft has erased all historical references to it… There are probably still people traumatised by it..

Bob ???

In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

Microsoft Bob???

Now that’s news! Could you please enlighten?

Wow! Forgot about that one.

In reply to Bob ???

Hearing that name dredged up faint memory, and I did some looking. I did a quick search and found information on Microsoft BOB on Wikipedia
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Bob).

downloading

In reply to Wow! Forgot about that one.

Yea i found that too, i also found a download, Im downloading just out of pure curiosity, was 98 really THAT bad?

http://www.winhistory.de/index_ENG.html

an erm, interesting website, on the “old” windows systems

Not NEARLY as bad as ME…

In reply to downloading

What a money grubbing ploy to steal our money……

Sad, But true

In reply to Wow! Forgot about that one.

I have beta tested this product from when it was dubbed ‘Longhorn’. Yess, it truly sucks. The product bottomed out halfway thru the process, and was renamed ‘Vista’. The early builds were so bad they would not install correctly. Microsoft had to remove many promised features they could not deliver. I will never, ever buy this piece of Ka ka.

Gavarit pa russki?

In reply to Sad, But true

You know what “kaka” is in russian ?

Re: Gavarit pa russki

In reply to Gavarit pa russki?

Probably the same as ‘caca’ means in english…

“Bob”

In reply to Wow! Forgot about that one.

Remeber there was one winner from Bob – does anyone remember who headed the project? The future Mrs. Gates.

Gee I wonder if totally screwing up at M$ gets you noticed by the boss?

Link to MS BOB Info 8-)

In reply to Bob ???

Here is a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_bob

A neighbour had BOB — a first I thought it was a joke. Well…it was, but not in way I initially thought!

Save yourself

In reply to Bob ???

Microsoft Bob, It was a great idea (somewhere way back in the early concept phase). It treated all users as children (very young children).
Forget it!
Let me put it this way; I have a pirated copy (on a CD somewhere, I think) , I could send it to you and cc Microsoft and MS would ignore us.

Nice

In reply to Save yourself

“I have a pirated copy (on a CD somewhere, I think) , I could send it to you and cc Microsoft and MS would ignore us.”

Thats Got to be the best line I’ve heard in a while
thanks for the laugh

LOL

In reply to Save yourself

They certainly wouldn’t want the Press to be reminded of that OS, just prior to the release of Vista tee hee

Hey! They might even pay you to destroy the copy???

…. now there’s a thought, M$ paying us…..

Nay…. never happen in a million years, the bean counters might even devise a way to put WGA on it, to raise revenue. (which they will be short of, after Vista’s launch)

LOL

In reply to LOL

I’m quite sure that they will eventually get to the point they put WGA on every peice of code that ever came out of their people.

Did anyone else notice…

In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

that the dog that comes up in search on XPis the same dog that is in BOB?!

Thank you

In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

from my theropist for renewing our relationship. BOB kill BOB kill BOB…

animated help screen characters

In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

Thanks for the hilarious post.I think Bill’s wife is still influencing really helpful things in their OSs. Like the Merlin and Rover characters in XP.
Vista is like Windows Me on steroids.

Another one down the drain

In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

Remember ‘digital dashboard’ from late 90’ies? A place where you could create links to all kinds of information. At he time a homepage (which is was) was very common, and Digital Dashboard was yet another try of re-inventing the wheel.

Not to mantion alle the vapourware annonced with W/2000, XP and Vista. Somebody ready with a list ?

You missed another one!

In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

Where is the venerable OS/2 in this line-up.

This has been a stroll down memory lane for me! You young whippersnappers missed out on understanding the roots of coding and how the structure of the programs were created through trial and user feedback/error.

But wow am I impressed with the talent out there now.

OS/2 was IBM not Microsoft

In reply to You missed another one!

We’re discussing the perfidity of Microsoft… OS/2 was an IBM product. We’ll have to discuss the perfidity of IBM and how they gave away the PC market to Microsoft another day!
🙂

Not really, it was both

In reply to OS/2 was IBM not Microsoft

OS/2 developed as an offshoot from Windows 1.03 1986, released April 2nd 1987 as MS OS/2 1.0 (aka CP/DOS)
Which then, itself, split up into the parallel development lines of NT and OS/2

source:
http://www.levenez.com/windows/history.html#11

———————–

Then again, there was this announcement made:

[b][i]”April 1987:
Microsoft announces MicroSoft Operating System/2 (MS OS/2) a new personal computer operating system. It has been designed and developed specifically to harness the capabilities of personal computers based upon the Intel 80286 and 80386 microprocessors. This is the first product to be announced as a result of the Joint Development Agreement between IBM and Microsoft announced in August 1985. – Intended Replacement for MS-DOS”[/b][/i]

source:
http://oldfiles.org.uk/powerload/timeline.htm

EDIT: typo

OS/2

In reply to OS/2 was IBM not Microsoft

OS/2 was developed as a joint project of IBM and Microsoft until they split on it and Microsoft took their part and came out with NT and IBM used their part and came out with OS/2.

Stolen not Given

In reply to OS/2 was IBM not Microsoft

My understanding was that the ‘divorce of Microsoft and IBM’ was based on we will take this one you can have this one, from an IBM perspective, given their relative positions at that time. I suspect Microsoft were economical with the truth regarding the relative merits of both op systems.
Microsoft were also in the driving seat on both products, technologically software wise. Anyone knows that picking up someone elses code is a nightmare.
Big Blue got the ‘short straw’, I am sure it still galls them.
Oldinthetooth

VISTA RC2 Looks a LOT Better

In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

I think Redmond heard us Beta gripers and did some real work. RC2 works pretty good, including solving a lot of driver and network problems. I called Vista, Microsoft’s Edsel . . . actually I liked the Ford Edsel, but was too young to buy it. I think I will buy Vista in February.

John Kansas

Bob’s NOT an OS, but thanks :)

In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

It was a hilarious product launch and a hilarious overlay an OS. Thanks for bringing it up 🙂

re:BOB

In reply to Bob’s NOT an OS, but thanks :)

I have a copy of BOB.
As a laugh I dug it out and found out it will run perfectly on XPSP2
Huge waste of my time, but it was cute.

John

[b]Insanity Alert![/b] :)

In reply to re:BOB

You did What? Now I have this lovely long sleeved jacket for you to wear and a nice padded room for you to lie down in and relax till you feel much better and I’ll tell you when that is. 😀

Actually MS Bob is the only thing that my local Black Hole has spat out and constantly refused to accept no matter how much I attempt to get rid of it it keeps turning up like a bad penny. 🙁

Col

Time to start the queue

In reply to re:BOB

Get your “Bob, the Pirated Edition” from this guy – c’mon, you know you want to give it to us!

I wanna see WGA call Bob illegitimate, the little bastards.

I can see history books and wikipedia now: “The day Bob took Bill down.”

Can’t you just imagine it? All these little Bobs bunched together waiting in the P2P holding pattern – like the little squeezies in the rocket in “Toy Story”. The whole crowd raising their pathetic little morphed hands and crying out, “Daddy??? Don’t you know us, Daddy???” Brings a tear to the eye, like in Shirley Temple, “The Little Colonel”, “Daddy! Don’t you see me? Daddy???”

… gotta go and get a change of clothes.

Oh you’re so demented – I like it :p the saddest thing about this

In reply to Time to start the queue

is that I didn’t think to say it.

Not an O/S

In reply to Bob’s NOT an OS, but thanks :)

Well… they were mentioning Windows 1, 2 and 3 which were not actual O/S either!

Well just to be picking Nits

In reply to Not an O/S

Windows 95 in all it’s forms wasn’t really an OS either it was just a shell loaded on top of DOS. For that matter even 98 was the same thing but at least with 98 they tried to hide the DOS underpinning it.

I’ve still got one old 200 MMX here that boots to DOS and I can then chose 3.11 or 95 along with several other pure DOS applications.

Actually when you really look at it Windows 3 whatever was just a pretty shell for DOS and it worked so much better if you didn’t actually use MS DOS. 🙂

I was using DR DOS up until 98 hit the streets as it was just better than anything that MS could come up with and along with a Menu system that allowed 10 layers for 10 front end applications you had to make up things to use some of those available Layers for things like the good old XCOPY A: B: where A was a 5.25 and B was a 3.5 inch floppy wasn’t possible with MS DOS but was just an XCOPY command in DR DOS.

With everything that is available now I still doubt if you could have used the entirety of a well designed Menu System running on DOS.

And then those shareware Programs that where available all those years ago sure they where cheap and crappy but they worked without many problems, now I’m forced to use Access to print up address labels and every so often it will just spit out a blank label page for no better reason that it feels like it. I also love the way that modern printers will still not print the bottom label row on these new applications with much better paper handling and print speed.

What was acceptable with a cheap Dot Matrix way back when still happens on a $40.000.00 + photocopier with a RJ45 interface that can double as a network printer/scanner but it still looks the same as that $150.00 Dot Matrix did all those years ago. Running that $15.00 share ware program that still works better than the MS offering that about 10 times the cost today.

Col

This brought back memories

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I can’t speak for all these systems because there were years I would skip due to so much bad news about the “new” OS system. I so clearly remember Windows 3.0 being touted as the new best system, installing it, formatting the disk and going back to DOS 5.0. It took me a while after that to trust Microsoft again.

In Total Agreement

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

The only real improvement I’ve been able to glean from Vista is the Glass interface – which, quite frankly, I find annoying once I got passed the “isn’t that nice” phase. Dressing up Windows XP could have been done using service or plus paks. Unless I’ve missed something, there really hasn’t been much improvement to the security features or stability of the OS. So, unless some earth-shattering revelation comes from the release of Vista – I’ll be leaving it alone for a while.

I’m with you….

In reply to In Total Agreement

With all the problems they’re having with delayed release, along with not allowing the security software vendors access to the kernel (like all of a sudden Microsloth is synonymoun with security), and all the other little problems that won’t be fixed (or even addressed) prior to RTM, I’m content to wait until Service Pack 1 comes about. On a brighter note, even with their new “Upgrade from XP to Vista” coupon program for PCs purchased between yesterday and March 15, OEMs are probably going to cut their prices considerably to convince people to buy a PC before Xmas instead of waiting for the release. And I’ll be taking advantage of that to pick up a new system on the cheap.

my opinion

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Vista is nothing but a beautiful interface and several dozen processes gaurenteed to rape your computer. The interface is beautiful, ill give you that much. I have run several demos on vista, most of which have crashed on me (im running an AMD athlon 64 3700+ 1GB RAM radeon 9600 XT overclocked) and the others with decent framerates…if you want to play long enough for vista to “get used” to the game. it simply starts out almost crashing, and eventually smooths out. Not my idea of a good gaming experience. as far as compatibilty goes, vista x64 still has the same problems as windows XP x64. No drivers for some hardware. Bottom line, performace sucks, looks neat, aweful new networking setup, dont count on it.

I like your thinking.

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Interesting line of thought. I’d never thought to look to see if a pattern of behavior was emerging in Windows releases. I have played around with Vista Beta 2 and RC1, and I can tell you that in my experience, Vista is little more than eye candy with annoyances. In Vista, the IP protocol stack has been rewritten, and in my opinion is causing major problems in getting to certain web sites via the browser in RC1. I can trace the route to those sites, but for some reason IE7 has issues with them and will just time out. The worst case of this is that the very site through which to report bugs appears inaccessible for some reason. Conspiracy?

I’m sticking with XP and Linux. In fact, I can hardly wait to download and install Fedora Core 6.

RC1 is a “Candidate”

In reply to I like your thinking.

Not a “release”…don’t compare released products with beta copies.

Vista Doom

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I’ve used Vista Beta 2, RC1 and RC2, and I like the interface and the OS.

Use-wise, it’s not the huge change MS would like it to be. I still use it the same way, still put my most common programs on the Quick Start bar, etc. But it does have some convenience factors I like. The ability to type in the names of control panel apps in the search bar on the start menu is convenient. The built in search is fast and useful. I like the way the new start menu works.

Security-wise, I’m happier with Vista than with prior versions of Windows. IE 7 on Vista is more secure than IE 6/7 on XP. It’s still not completely secure, but nothing is. I’ve tested a few things (gone to pages that download spyware, etc.) and the default settings have worked to secure the computer. So long as I don’t do really stupid stuff (like allow pages to install code on the computer by typing in an admin password), it should be okay.

Truly, I see it as an incremental improvement over XP. But I do see it as a worthwhile improvement.

As for the new graphics, they’re nice, but I don’t buy an OS for the glossy graphics.

Vista Doomed From The Start?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Having used all those operating systems, I must admit I will not be using Vista immediately, for an absolute certainty! That which is being touted reasons for buying/upgrading to Vista, has mostly to do with “aesthetics,” which I am not adverse to per se, for I do love beautiful things, but that is found mostly in nature! I can go out for a weekend with a couple of camera bodies, and THERE find my beauty, not have to pay for beauty in an OS, but rather pay for truly needful changes and additions that make the OS worth all our dollars.

As well, MS has usually done their best testing from those who buy at the start, and I feel few will want to be among those who purchase only to be testers for things missing, to find flaws, being of help in improving those things. If I go to Vista, it will be a few years after I have seen the patching process isn’t needed anymore, and the OS is absolutely rock solid.

Too much being talked abour Vista

In reply to Vista Doomed From The Start?

If you read these reports, one has to agree that at least in the beginning Vista is not a must buy. I will prefer wait and watch and carry on with my older version of Windows.
An user out side US

Vista doomed? I don’t think so

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I’m using Vista X64 Ultimate RC2-it is working with no problems-highly stable in fact it has not stopped working at all. My computer runs 24/7.
I prefer VISTA over XP.
Michael L Hereid Sr

Why?

In reply to Vista doomed? I don’t think so

What does vista really have that isn’t already in xp, outside of alot of overhead?

Why? Well running 32 bit Ultimate/Premium Home

In reply to Why?

It actually uses less memory than XP plus it uses it more efficently. What else is new-better security(esp for people who don’nt or don’t want to know better)when directx 10 cards become availible(even more realistic game play)-better user experiance.
Sure there will be a period of when people will have to learn the OS, but it has been that way for years every time there isa new OS.
Mike

My Vista Experience

In reply to Vista doomed? I don’t think so

Running 32bit Vista Ultimate RC2. Besides lack of driver support from 3rd party hardware, no problems. Preferred to XP.

Running Build 5744

In reply to My Vista Experience

I have had a few problems with the RC2 Build but prefer it to XP.

I find that as with all other OS there are some bugs involved, but for me, that’s great.

I am the child that tore apart the household appliances and electronics to see what makes them tick.

If they ever make the perfect OS that is self maintaining that will heal itself of any critical error I will truly be saddened, for would not our jobs then be threatened, The perfect OS would doom us to become like the dinosaurs.

I like to tinker and if it is not perfect so much the better.

The word for today is “Job Security”

So what I gather from this is…

In reply to Running Build 5744

Vista is a boon to those who intend to tinker, but a bust for those of us who want to use a computer as a tool and not a toy.

I’m sure iMac will always have something for tinker-ers, but in a work environment, … say construction, the guy who makes money by driving nails into pieces of wood is not going to be satisfied with a hammer that falls off every xth time, or splits for no reason, or moves up and down the handle with little or no control (like mouse movements on Macs) or must be replaced after the “life/support” for it has been adjusted to expire, or all of a sudden flashes an LED indicating that the manufacturer no longer considers it to be genuine.

Sound familiar? To non-tinker-ers, it’s frustrating. The PC is meant to be a tool, not a toy.

Perhaps the manufacturers should concentrate on splitting into two distinct camps: toys/games and tools/computers. The only reason I can arrive at for M$ making the combinations is to blur the applications/quality so as to dodge complaints from all those who are dissatisfied.

The worse M$ grows, the happier you may be, but the more damage is done to business and productivity.

Not putting you down, but acknowledging the only “happy campers” out there with M$.

Well since you like to tinker

In reply to Running Build 5744

And consider this as [b]Job Security[/b] do I have some customers for you!

They buy Million $ + piece of Plant and [b]Expect it to WORK[/b] they expect the same thing from the computers that they have now found that they simply must have to stay in business to work first time every time no matter what. It doesn’t matter that they left it turned on and packed it away and the battery has gone flat it’s just got to work when they pull their NB out of the bag and God help you if it doesn’t!

You have 2 chances with them but educmation isn’t one of them you can either throw yourself on the ground begging for mercy or stand up and take the beating [b]Like a Man![/b] That will of course not help the entire situation but at least they will respect you and ask you to supply them with another machine after a 40 tom excavator has terminated the other one after crushing it into the ground with it’s tracks and then pounding the bucket into the remains just to vent their frustration after they have hospitalised their tech. And that is only because they where out of Transmission range in a Black Spot for their Broadband WiFi connection.

It’s fun working in an air conditioned office where people bow down to you nd you think that you have [b]Job Security[/b] but in the real world it’s better if it works first time every time and then you can schedule Routine maintenance as required at a higher rate and earn far more money with less frustration involved when you fix something today that you know you’ll be fixing next week for no better reason that it’s going to break again without explanation.

If you are like me and [b]Take Pride in your Work[/b] Windows is the [b]Pits[/b] to work with as there is no way known that you can offer any form of guarantee on the working of the system unless it’s not turned on and the power lead is thrown out even then it will probably be broken but the end user will not know about it. 😀

Col

Way to go, Col!

In reply to Well since you like to tinker

That’s why, in 1993, when DOS 6.0 truncated all my work and all my clients’ data coast to coast – – – in one week, I quit. I knew I could never live in the same universe as M$, so I picked up a pair of scissors and began cutting chickens for TV dinners.
Now I work as an editor; my superiors feared me, thinking I wanted their jobs. Ha! I work 8 months a year; I get slightly more than minimum wage, but I can go home and forget the work, I have 3-4 months of reliable “lay-off” time to live the life I honestly have, now that I have ceased programming.

Fool that I am, I bought yet another HP in 2001 and fooled with ME – – – got it to work, … soso.
Now I have that, an old Toshiba Satellite Pro 410CDT (printer hub), another Toshiba laptop (98SE), a Sony E-machine (XP) and this Acer Aspire 3000. Guess I didn’t learn my lesson yet, huh? Now I’m here bellyaching because I want to produce videos for a hobby and must fight M$ for every frame. What a life!

Well it could be worse

In reply to Way to go, Col!

I gave up punching code when I ran into one of the first CS graduates from Uni here who insisted on writing a fairly small subroutine in basic when we where using Boolean for everything. He came back with a piece of code and a very small piece that was supposed to integrate with the entire thing and fit onto a 64K EPROM. [i]Thank God Big Blue had me in Purgatory for fixing their mainframes which is what they employed me to do or I would honestly have killed the guy.[/i] When I pointed out the obvious I was told that the system needed redesigning and it wasn’t his problem.

That was back in the days when you had to be an Electronic Engineer to work with computers and because I repaired some power boards I was punished. Apparently it wasn’t considered as a Good Thing to have the State Service Manager doing such things when they could send the boards away for about 6 months and leave the customers with massively reduced computing power. So as punishment they gave me the crummiest job available at one of the subsidiaries programing EPROM’S for race cars. The stupid Accountant didn’t realise that I was a Mechanical Engineer first and for most who had originally built race cars so it wasn’t any real punishment to me and I even got treated as a Special guest at any of the Race Teams on the weekend meetings. It’s a Hard Life But Some One Has to do it. 😀

They figured that I could maybe stick it out for 3 months but after 6 months they sent my boss up to see just what it was that I was doing. [b]Enjoying Myself way too much for his liking.[/b] :^0

I finally relented after a few days and asked him what my qualifications where and he went pale and realised that there was no way known that I was ever willingly going back to being the State Service Manager of the Mainframe section. Even when they sent me all the deadbeats it didn’t faze me in the slightest as I just ignored them totally and gave them all useless work to do. Naturally none of them wanted to come out to race meetings and even when they had to attend during working hours they beat a hasty retreat from the track come 5.00 pm. The parties where just starting by then so they never actually got to meet any of the important people and more importantly I wasn’t paying for drinks. 😀

I could only keep the punishment detail going for about 2 years and then when I was read the Riot Act I quit and took a job with one of the race teams, boy did that go down well with the competition and more importantly my old boss who had to answer why I wouldn’t return to the Main Business activity. I actually think that the accountant in question got demoted for his actions but if that happened it will have been the only time that I got one over on the Bean Counters. 🙁

I set up this business to be semiretired spend a couple of days a week working on small business computers and then have time to spend with my play toys. It was a nice idea and did last 12 hours till I was approached by most of my previous staff asking for a job and bringing along a list of customers way too long to be able to say no to.

And then there are the customers who are an interesting bunch one in particular after abusing me to hell and back insists that everywhere that he moves I do all their work I can’t even bring in one of the staff to help me when required as I’m the only one who can be trusted. At the last place he moved to the very first day that I was there within the first 2 hours he had parked a [b]Bloody Great Big Excavator[/b] on top of the existing computer and he just walked into the bosses office and asked could I fix his computer as it was no longer working. I used the standard answer of [b]Yes Certainly[/b] and when I got into his office there was no computer in sight just the keyboard with a cup of coffee upside down on it and some excuse that it had peeved him off so much that he had thrown it out the window. So I went looking and he was hanging out the window saying warmer/colder as I looked for the computer. I naturally didn’t think to look under the tracks of any of the plant that was up for sale in the yard but when I saw some of the remains hanging out from under the left hand track of the biggest excavator in the yard I just burst out laughing and I had to leave the place as I couldn’t keep a straight face after that incident. Hardly a good way to impress a new customer rolling round in fits of laughter because one of their computers has been murdered by a crazy salesperson. :^0

When I got home from there I had an order for a replacement computer to deliver back there the next day which just cracked my up all over again. It’s probably not a good idea laughing when you see things like that particularly with a new customer but I couldn’t help myself after all I had watched the same guy demolish a brand new Range Rover for far less of a reason and it had to be taken away on 3 tow trucks. I’m not quite sure of what the cop who pulled him up for the tail lights not working thought about the whole thing but as there where no light bulbs or wiring to those lights he accidentally destroyed it with another excavator in front of a Political Party who had shown up for the ground breaking and the cop who had pulled him up for the nonworking tail lights. As the Cop had insisted that the car was Unroadworthy he made it that way in no uncertain terms but originally he made it look so accidental that there where people driving for cover and then after pounding the remains into the ground he asked the Cop in question was it Roadworthy Now?.

At the beginning he didn’t even touch the excavator he just parked the car where he was told to and the excavator operator had the unit slewed with the bucket just off the ground. Stopped it for some display purposes and wasn’t allowed to bury the bucket in the ground so after about 30 minutes it slowly straightened up but the Range Rover was in the way and after the bucket & Boom had torn it into 3 pieces he just had to demonstrate just how effective the unit actually was by pounding the remains into the ground. I couldn’t watch and had to turn away as I would have chocked from laughing so hard but the look on the Politicians faces and the Overseas Suppliers of this equipment was priceless.

When he got out he had the teeth buried in the ground with the bottom of the bucket facing the audience and his only words where Didn’t even take any paint off did I? Though to be fair there where streaks of dark green Range Rover paint on the bottom of the bucket. 😀

Now that he’s moved overseas I have a much quieter life and I can normally not burst out laughing at some of his actions. :p

Col

… And I thought I had stories!

In reply to Well it could be worse

I stand amazed! You are the GrandDaddy of yarnspinners!

But, as the plaque read in my neighbor’s patio: “He who can boast without lying; Let Him Boast”. I find nothing unbelievable in your tales. Fortunately, however, it sends my darker memories deeper into hiding, so I have nothing to offer in responose, … except praise – couldn’t top that one anyway!

OH come on now that isn’t even an old one.

In reply to Well it could be worse

That one only happened a few years ago if you want something really funny, Remember the Halon Fire Suppression Systems?

Well here at the local Uni I had to sign off on an installation for the Mainframe building and everything looked perfect except that they had no outside O2 supply for anyone trapped inside if there was a fire. Apparently they had run over budget and couldn’t afford the O2 bottles on the outside but they did place some O2 Hand Held units inside the building that where good for about 10 minutes max. The only trouble was that the fire Station was 15 minutes away and the only way to unlock the only escape to the outside world was quite rightly on the outside. I naturally enough refused to sign off on the safety of the place as if anything had of happened I would have been the one responsible for the deaths and while Halon is excellent for putting out fires it’s not overly good for the humans inside the building for some strange reason. They had everything run but just no O2 Bottles outside feeding the inside to keep any poor SOD’s inside alive till they could be released.

Well the Government Officers where not overly happy when I refused to sign the Safety Certificate and went straight to my Boss who passed the buck back to me so they finally gave in and placed about 15 O2 bottles in the rack outside and I didn’t have a problem with singing off on the complete installation.

However a few months latter when I returned for some routine maintenance work I noticed that all the O2 bottles had disappeared and I saw red over the entire thing as knowing my luck I would be one of the ones stuck inside and die because of some stupid penny pinching. So with my master key I turned off the Halon went inside and with the majority of the bureaucrats in attendance triggered the fire alarm. The place locked down exactly as it should have and there was panic in the room by the bureaucrats who where running around taking all the portable O2 units off the workers in a vain attempt to save their lives.

I just sat on a bench and lit a cigarette and when they finally realised that they had a problem and this lunatic Tech was smoking in the room they asked what was going to happen? My answer was easy [b]We Are Gong to Die[/b] as there is no External O2 supply in here for the people working here and the fire brigade is at least 10 minutes away now and you have already exhausted 50% of what little O2 you have left before the Halon has even started. Well you should have seen the look of total panic involved then and they insisted that there must be a way out so they could stay alive and much more importantly why was I smoking in there? Of course me holding up the master key and telling them that the lock was outside didn’t help much. 😀

I just said well I accept that I’m about to die so I’m going to at least enjoy myself instead of running around like the fools who created this mess.

As the Fire Brigade knew it was a test they didn’t bother to rush there and I just had to love the horrified looks on their faces and the constant scanning for the Halon to start descending from the ceiling. Anyway 20 minutes latter the Fire Brigade opened the building and let us out & I signed a Certificate that the building was unsafe and no work could be performed till it was up to spec.

I’ve never seen a bunch of Government Employees move so fast they had new O2 bottles in place within 30 minutes and they where even regularly checked and replaced as necessary. Thinking back I should have had the Halon turned on just a little bit as I’m sure that the People concerned would have wet themselves in an attempt to get out.

I could never understand that one though it’s not as if there was no plumbing for the O2 in the place but to skimp on a couple of O2 Bottles to save some money at the expense of the lives of the people inside the building was beyond belief. I actually found piratical demonstrations like that to be very effective in getting the right things done. But I had already warned the staff working in there and it was only the Bureaucrats who had made the decisions to remove the O2 that went into a panic. :^0

Needless to say I no longer do any Government work except for 1 section that I’m trying to dump at the first opportunity. With a bit of luck that will be when they adopt Vista just after it’s released. 😀

Col ]:)

Hey Col, I give a guarantee on all the Windows work I do

In reply to Well since you like to tinker

I guarantee that it’ll work for exactly 20 nanoseconds after I lift my hands from the keyboard. I make the client check, and confirm it’s working to spec before I leave the room, and that’s it. I fixed the problem, anything now is their problem, or new work.

But to be honest it’s hardly for fulling work is it?

In reply to Hey Col, I give a guarantee on all the Windows work I do

Sure you can be sure that you have a guaranteed income every week because you just know that it’s going to break for no reason and you’ll spend hours fixing up the mess. But honestly it’s can not be called satisfying work can it.

I know when I walk into a movie place here running SUSE and doing all their CG on it that when I fix something it’s going to stay fixed I will not get to the car and be called back to fix what I’ve just wasted several hours to do 20 nanoseconds ago.

My current favourite is one with IE6 at one domestic client place on just 1 Web Page they have some how managed to make the entire page letters about 3 inches high. I’m dammed if I know what they have done to get the display like this on just 1 Web Site and to be quite honest I really can not be bothered looking or at least trying to understand what or how they managed to perform this. Originally on the phone about 6 months ago I just told him to load FF and he’s never used IE since except for Windows Updates. I suppose I really should try to find out what they have done but honestly it’s not worth the time & effort wasted to fix a minor problem that is no longer being used.

Col

Chocolate and Vanilla

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

First all I’am not sure if it is doomed from the start or not but that is a pretty good theory about MS,s software. One thing i know for sure it’s just a matter of preference more then anything else, as to which one we choose. I say try them all it’s fun somtimes. 😉

Will Vista Improve Productivity in the Work Place?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

We all know that the recommended amount of RAM for VISTA is 1 GB and to appreciate the new graphics we will all need new video card PCIE.

After a company spends big dollars on upgrading their hardware comes the big dollars of paying for the software.

The justification for spending all this money to upgrade to VISTA must come with a big advantage and that comes down to increasing productivity in the work place.

Don’t you just love the flood of PC vendors offering PC’s at a small cost that wont run VISTA either being short of RAM or now having enough power being not built with PCIE graphics cards.

With every version of O/S M$ has produced there is a total disregard for how much the Hardware will cost to run the new version.

This don’t care attitude is reflected in meeting where M$ basically tells Hardware Manufacturers what they need to build to support the new O/S

In my life time I have seen Windows happy to run on 16MB of RAM with a 1MB video card and a hard disk with no more than an outrageous
1 GB of RAM.

Certainly the trade off in upgrading hardware means that we can run products like Windows 2000 with speed and increase efficiency in the workplace.

The question is for most companies of medium to large is

What productivity will the outlay cost increase our business efficiency?

If you are purchasing a O/S just for the eye Kandy rather than functionality, you are probably a home user who can indulge in 1 or 2 PC with a new O/S

If you CEO asks you administrators to cost the new hardware and software cost and justify it against productivity gains – which any IT manager must explore then good luck to you.

Just a few thoughts

1. It there a limit less amount of RAM you are prepared to install in each PC
2. Is there a limit less amount of hard disk you are prepared to install.
3. Is there a limit less amount of PCIE video cards you are prepared to upgrade to and what amount of RAM on those cards are you prepared to install.

I do realise that you don’t get new functionality for nothing, however there must come a time where business draws the line.

I would love to see a new O/S released that improves productivity without needing to upgrade all your hardware. A new O/S that is safer, faster and manages memory far better and guarantees Disk writes and reads to the HDD are always verified and are fault tolerant the way a Main Frame and servers guarantee this buy the use of Hotfix, Turbo FAT tables and limited use of the disk for virtual RAM so the HDD is free just to read and write to supply files for the O/S and applications.

Long Way Round but Excellent Point. . .

In reply to Will Vista Improve Productivity in the Work Place?

zczc2311,

Agree 200% with your last paragraph — real progress for an OS might better be measured in terms of security, speed, and better use of the hardware. Get the idea, Redmond?

Or is it really a conspiracy to spur hardware sales, after all. . .

Reid

There is such a thing….

In reply to Will Vista Improve Productivity in the Work Place?

Have you tried Linux? LOL

Sure, it’s not from Microsoft, but it’s a decent OS, not to expensive and it doesn’t take an expensive hard core gaming machine to run it…

Sure Have

In reply to There is such a thing….

I run SUSE Linux 10.1 and soon 10.2 right now!

Linux?

In reply to There is such a thing….

What is this Linux you speak of? I’ve never heard of it, and the subject of it never comes up billions of times during a MS discussion.
Sarcasm – 1
Originallity – 0
😉

Back in the old days of Main Frames

In reply to Linux?

We used to run Dumb Terminals on Unix but with all the improvements that have been brought about by Linux in the Server field and the Business Model like SUSE we now run all those same [b]Dumb Terminals[/b] or as they are now known Thin Clients on Linux because it works and is far more scalable that any Windows product could hope to ever be.

Lets face facts with the medium sized Blades of say 2,000 CPU’s there currently isn’t a single Windows OS capable of running one of those things and use more than 4 of the CPU’s is there?

Col

God! Your as old as I am

In reply to Back in the old days of Main Frames

I started out being one of the technical shift staff maintaining a number of Collins DCP Front End – we had a few more users – around 5,000 all over the world – all Dumb terminals and about 2000 printers of different types all running at a comms rate of a whopping 9600bps.

And if the response time got greater than 50 milliseconds on priority 1 sets – heads rolled and you were asked to explain.

And if after testing your new changes to the application software and you put it on-line and you got 1 error dump there was a big please explain to have to offer.

Dumps off-line were expected, but on-line – you could feel the tension in the air.

Your as old as me I think. but I don’t think I will be here in 2038? I think from memory.

May Be as I will be in my mid 80’s by then. :p

In reply to God! Your as old as I am

Hopefully I will not be working IT though. 🙂

However when I setup this business it was supposed to be semiretired for me 15 odd years ago and I got that for the first 12 hours or so and then every one of my previous staff approached me for a job which I really didn’t want to do. 🙁

I was really looking forward to working maybe 2 days a week with a bit of remote work thrown in for good measure and then having time for my [b]Play toys[/b] Unfortunately that didn’t happen and if my father is anything to go by he eventually retired at 86 so things don’t look that great for me do they? :_|

But then of course when he was 65 his last child was born so hopefully I’ll not suffer the same fate. Actually I know that I can’t suffer the same fate as I’ve had the local Vet in and had the wife Spaded on the kitchen table and then we got drunk together. :^0

Col ]:)

tat’s bad :0

In reply to May Be as I will be in my mid 80’s by then. :p

That ones real bad. (but funny B-) )
You’re probably going to get a penenty kick for that one. :_|
(actually just the opposit happened to me. But, it serves the same. I wouldn’t want any of my young ones to have to play with my Grand kids)

Well what can I say

In reply to May Be as I will be in my mid 80’s by then. :p

My little sister went down to visit her Big Brother in Cantberra and was taken out by one of his sons to be shown around the town. All of his mates where asking him who the Hot New Chick that he was dragging around was. Of course none of them believed him when he insisted that it was his Auntie who was 3 years younger than him. 😀

Actually thinking about it Dad was 52 years old when I was born so I suppose his age wasn’t such a big deal. He used to be driven nuts with the way that I handled Uni with a total disregard for the courses and he was horrified when I got such high marks at the exams. He could never understand how I could do it without appearing to do any work. 🙂

Just don’t mention the bit about the Vet to the wife or I’ll be in real trouble. :^0

Col ]:)

Not a peep…

In reply to May Be as I will be in my mid 80’s by then. :p

Not from me.
I saw nothing B-)

Business driven contra supplier driven

In reply to Will Vista Improve Productivity in the Work Place?

IT is no different from shop floor equipment. Will the new lathe, welding automat, cutting machine, whatever improve the bottonline ? Will the new IT system improve the bottom line ?

Time to get business-like on the PC’s. Maybe even drop them in favour of thin clients ?

20 years ago I put together my first network and…

In reply to Business driven contra supplier driven

25 years ago I setup my first Business Network. There were 60 odd PC’s without HDD or Floppy drives and each had 1 MB of RAM and 512K on Video Card. The PC’s were aa new batch of 80386 systems.

We had 2 Novell NetWare File Servers 2.15 revC. 1 That ran the accounting department of 6 PC’s and the rest were all run totally from a 80486 NetWare File Server ? and that was all it did ? serve files to every PC on the Network and the Workstations did all the processing.

We ran Word Perfect Office comprising of Word Perfect 5.1, Data Perfect (a mirror of Lotus 123) and Dataflex as the data base and WordPefect’s email client that evolved into Groupwise. – We had a MHS gateway and were able to email all our branch offices and connect to various clients. We had another SNA gateway to access our Main Frame site in the UK/USA/Asia and have the workstations run a 3270 Terminal emulator.

The topology was Ethernet 10mbps thin/thick coax.

Despite the lack of resources the PC’s ran faster than a current Windows XP with a P4 HT and 512MB of RAM.

The File Server did as it was suppose to do ? serve all the files quickly.
The Workstations did what they were suppose to do ? Process the files.

As I said the whole system was faster than most of today’s Network running windows. It was fast effective and productive.

What you could NOT do was have a GUI interface to run on top.

We all knew how to use the software and as functionality was concerned there is little we did not have then as we have now.

What we did not have the ability to do

1.Spend the day doing no work and marvel at the eye Kandy
2.Do our personal banking
3.Email all our friends
4.Access to the internet
5.Have high powered graphics on our screens
6.Limited to the amount of Postscript fonts loaded on the system.
7.We did not worry about security as we ran secure comms like SNA and no one can hack secure comms like of SNA/SDLC/ALC.

How far have we come and at what cost. IF we all did not take up a GUI and all still had text and developed multi tasking just using different text views on our PC’s we could still have the internet, run secure comms and forget hacking/security issues.

It would just not look pretty ? How much has looking pretty cost us. Perhaps we would have developed graphics without the need for a total GUI to run every keystroke we made.

hey

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

i wouldnt call XP that good.. 2000 was no doubt pretty good but in my opinion, XP could’ve been better.. so in that case, Vista should be better.. and u’ve grouped NT n 98 together as well.. keep em seperate n u’r pattern goes out the window 😛

Pattern? I think not. Doomed? Maybe.

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

For a start, how on earth can you put NT and 98 together as “NT/98” – they’re based on totally different kernels and one (NT) was infinitely more stable than the other.
As for Windows Me, I actually found it the most stable of the MS “consumer” OS’s until XP came along.
If anything, Vista is doomed because of the restrictions (think licensing, DRM, and so on) it’s going to place on the end user.
Sorry Microsoft, I’ll keep my XP. You haven’t given me a good enough reason to upgrade.

i agree..

In reply to Pattern? I think not. Doomed? Maybe.

Microsoft’s thinking that its pretty smart by inserting these restrictions into Vista. Most of the people I’ve talked to dont want to upgrade just because of these licensing issues.
Personally, I’d rather not pay so much for cutting my arms n legs off with Vista. XP is a far better choice.

Lesser of the two evils???

In reply to i agree..

I’m in the minority. I prefer ME over 9.x. I upgraded to XP only for NTFS to use my larger HDD’s, but have decided to drop back to 120/160gb instead of super large – harder to back up.
What gets me is that XP is so bad that Vi$ta wa$ con$idered the nece$$ary $tep to fix XP.
Most people I know are $o di$$ati$fied with XP, and, con$idering the failure rate of all M$ pa$t performance, there are few intere$ted in any more from M$.

I just find it difficult to $ay: “XP i$ a better choice”.

MS use a well know marketing strategy

In reply to Lesser of the two evils???

it was made famous by the Nazi Gestapo – they used to torture people and say ‘Tell us what we want to know, and you won’t have to watch us do this to your wife and children.’ People take the lesser of two evils. MS keep offering them the lesser of two evil, rubbish or rubbish that looks nice.

OK, as far as stability and doing what it was designed to do, Win 98SE was the best thing I’ve seen MS put out as a full Windows OS. However, they never gave it the capability to handle full 32 bit, any 64 bit, and no drivers for the modern hardware. Thus you’re limited to older equipment if you use Win 98.

With XP, fairly stable until SP2 and WGA, you can sue the modern hardware, and high encryption, and larger storage medium. That’s why a lot of people see it as better.

DE, Your unadulterated hatred for MS

In reply to MS use a well know marketing strategy

is just wearing a bit thin. Older HW for 98?
You’ve never downloaded a driver?
SP2 less stable than SP1?
Nazi Gestapo?
Rubbish?

Did Bill Gates personally beat your ass in high school? I mean, really, some people seem to get physically riled up when discussing Windows. I have trouble hating someone with such fervor that I have never met.

All OSs have thier good and bad.
MS never killed anyones family.
Please people, it is just an OS

Ernest, sorry that I singled you out, but this post relates to several others also.
Hope you’re not offended, because I do respect you as a member and your posts(other than anything MS related 😉 )

Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

In reply to DE, Your unadulterated hatred for MS

a Win 98 driver for a new HP printer, or the any of the other latest peripherals. Most companies don’t make them. Try finding Win 98 drivers for the built in 64 bit hardware on a motherboard.

I’ve been using MS software for nearly 20 years, and a lot of where the industry is today is due to the changes that Bill Gates caused in the late 1980s and early 1990s – but something changed with Win 95, and they’ve been going downhill since.

For the last 10 years I’ve had exposure to Linux. Unix and Mac – had to use them in the work place – no serious secure gateway uses Windows for their critical protection hardware.

I’ve used Win 98SE extensively at home, and went to Win 2K, then Win XP. But this year, I’ve had it with MS and their ‘fook the client’ attitude. Three legal copies of XP 32 bit version, and a legal 64 bit version – bought direct from MS; all totally screwed over because I made the mistake of trusting MS and loading SP2 with WGA.

WGA works great if you have broadband and leave auto updates on. Turn auto updates off, don’t run any updates for several weeks, and the system is declared a pirate by MS. Do they fix their database when you ring up and get a new code. Nope. After losing many hours of work and spending many days rebuilding systems because of WGA – unpaid work, my own gear. I gave it the toss and seriously tried various Linux installs, settling on SimplyMEPIS 6. Easier to use than XP, better security, and I have more control of MY computer.

As to MS having killed people, I wonder. I used to work in the Dept of Defence and a lot of the equipment software used to run on MS Windows, some years back, they started moving off MS for mission critical apps.

I don’t know if it’s true, but one story I heard was that the fault in the tracking system in the Patriot missiles was due to a calculation error in the MS OS that the system ran on. I’d be surprised if that was the case, I’d expected that system to be all special built from scratch.

SP2 causes more problems than SP1 because it insists on loading WGA, a most intrusive piece of rubbish that can trash your system.

Vista is NOT an Operating System, but a major Application with a minimal operating System built in. This approach is what makes it bad, and has the need for all the extra hardware.

I used to be a strong MS supporter, but WGA has costs me time and work, because it trashed my system when I needed it, I lost out on some contracts. I can’t afford that sort of behaviour, no one can. But the MS attitude is, direct from their senior staff in the help room “Sorry sir, but that’s your problem, you should have broadband and leave auto updates on, so it can do its job. If you’re to cheap to pay for broadband, you have to live with the consequences.” I’d love to have broadband, it’s just not available in this area yet, but MS don’t care. XP worked perfectly for some years, no issues, WGA and it’s destroyed – MS insists that you need WGA for updates now, so who is at fault for trashing the system – WGA, ie MS for putting out rubbish software and insisting you use it. Vista has it as a core item, any bets it’s improved, I doubt it.

MS created this problem and then blame the client for it. Well, that’s not customer service, that’s abuse of position. I feed them to the sharks, except I’m not that cruel to animals – poisoning sharks, I’m not that low. But they just lost a customer of many years, one who has input to many other clients. All of whom are now looking very closely at Linux and Unix for their business software.

edited to correct typo

Sorry, I have ADD

In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

So I only skimmed that post. Maybe I’ll thourouly read it later.
Just a couple of things
98 drivers for 64 bit hardware? Um, Why?

SP2 has nothing to do with WGA

It seems we are getting to the bottom of your anger though.
Seems you had a bad experience with WGA. I have never met anyone else that has. Read about it, but never actually met a one.
Are your WGA problems at home or work?
I can’t imagine a business still being on dial up.
Could this be end user related?
And really I doubt MS support told you basically to go f yourself.
I just think alot (maybe all) MS bashers exagerate. Quite a bit in fact

Yeah 64 bit drivers – WGA & SP2

In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

you want the best performance out of a 64 bit system, you need 64 bit drivers – I know, they don’t make them. However, it’s almost impossible to buy a new system that isn’t 64 bit.

——

regarding Spew Pack 2. I didn’t have WGA on my system, I downloaded and installed SP2, and suddenly had WGA. Try as I might, i couldn’t get SP2 without WGA came with it. It may well have been something to do with the way that MS was running the updates system at the time, but that was how it was. I even tried to select specific updates and download just those, the MS site would not allow me access to the updates after SP2 unless I had WGA installed.

I think it’s a telling comment that only two companies have tried being so intrusive, and anti-client friendly, in their anti-piracy treatment – MS and Sony. Sony used a root kit, MS used WGA, and I think both are just as harmful in the way they work.

maybe I wasn’t clear

In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

“Try finding Win 98 drivers for the built in 64 bit hardware on a motherboard.”

Of course you cant get 64 bit drivers for Windows 98!!!

“you want the best performance out of a 64 bit system, you need 64 bit drivers – I know, they don’t make them.”

And you need a 64 bit OS. Windows 98 is not one

“However, it’s almost impossible to buy a new system that isn’t 64 bit.”

Wha? I just bought a brand new 32 bit system.
Earnest, please just stop it now. 😉

You obviously missed the point about my location

In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

I live in Australia, we don’t have the range of hardware here as you do in the USA. Having only 20 million people spread out over 7,617,930 sq kms of land, with 25,760 km of coast line, while the USA has 300 million over 9,161,923 sq km of land, with 19,924 km coast line, the UK has 61 million people over 241,590 sq km of land, with 12, 429 km of coast line. We’re a bit thin on the ground and a much smaller market area.

Thus companies don’t import huge quantities of stock, and are frequently turnover their stock with newer items. If you wanted to buy a 32 bit system you would have to look at buying from Dell or HP or similar organisations you stock by the warehouse full. But those interested in buying value for money buy vanilla and the several stores that I deal with no longer have 32 bit CPUs or motherboards available, they’d have to order them in for you. And that’s the case with the majority of the computer stores here.

As to the 64 bit drivers. Interesting that I can find a 64 bit driver for hardware in Linux, install it on an older version of Linux and it’ll work – if it’s installed on a 64 bit system. And modern 32 bit Linux drivers will work with older versions of Linux of the same distro. Yet Windows need totally different drivers for their different versions, usually.

Anyway, not an issue for me anymore I’ve defenestrated my MS software, and moved to Linux full time.

edited to fix typo in title

You bought a 32 Bit system really?

In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

What type of CPU does it have in it? It has to be a Celeron and they are complete garbage not worth the money spent to build them let alone place them into a system.

The current versions of all the other CPU’s are 64 Bit and can support 32 Bit Applications but just because they can run 32 Bit Applications doesn’t mean that they are 32 Bit pieces of hardware. AMD has only been making 64 Bit CPU’s for a very long time now and Intel has adapted the EMT technology which allows 64 Bit processing on the standard CPU’s that they sell from the P4 up. At any Intel Chanel Partners Meeting the Intel people refuse to speak about the Celeron’s and treat them as a dirty word that they try to avoid. When the P4 came out with HTT someone asked at an Intel Meeting about the Celeron and was told by the presenter [b]We Don’t Talk About Those Things. [/b]

So what exactly is the hardware Specifications of this 32 Bit system and how old is it?

Col

M$ Ba$her$ come in camps

In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

1. Apple fans, who just love Apple/Mac/iMacs and feel the rest of the world is nuts, because they’re sooooooo happy.
Also, many Apple users have tried using non-Apple machines and were immediately faced with a mouse that moves like lightening, buttons which required knowledge of what button does what, and numerous choices and methods of doing the same things – – – just too much to learn and too much opportunity for problems with all those unknowns.

2. M$ U$ers who are deeply un$ati$fied with compound and redundant failures and changes. This list now includes the WGA debacle. The saga continues.
$ome of u$ have been complaining from the beginning, from DO$ 2.11 on because we had used far better for some time and were not interested in the new kid on the block, especially when he starts out with a shady thumbnail.

3. Other: including Distro users, but most of them are so contented with what they use that they have no time for bashing; others view themselves as evangelists for Open Source, so they visit posts like this one in the hope that they can save some from further destruction and frustration.
Still others have migrated from M$ because they had enough of Gate$ crapware and chose to try something else or quit.

4. The silent ones: those who could not find satisfaction in Mac or the Distros, and took up woodshop or cooking or watching cable, … anything but M$; but, since they aren’t using computers any more, they’re not likely to post, are they?

Quick response

In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

Hal 9000
I’m not a hardware type in the least, so ok, mine’s a PD 840 (and I haven’t had a chance to do a thing with Vista on it yet, too busy at work) But the point was I’m not running any 64 bit software, nor do I need any 64 bit drivers.

Media-Ted
Good post, but you left out a camp that is actually more prelevant than you may know(and I am not singling anyone out, but I’m sure there are several on TR just as there are on any forum)
5.The Kool-aid drinkers: Those that jump on the hating MS bandwagon merely because that is the IN thing to do. These include the people who whine because something went over thier level of comprehension, so it must be M$’s fault, not theirs
What happens when someone bashes Linux because something goes over the users comprehension level. They get torn a new one, and rightfully so.

Ernest
I think your peers think I am attacking you, and are coming to your defense. I think you defend yourself quite well. As far as how things are in Australia, I don’t know. But it’s still not MS’s fault. Can you order hardware online (thats what I do) or is that a big, expensive pain in the rear? One thing I do agree with you on is M$’s lack of support to phase out older software. I don’t disagree for one second that they aren’t a money hungry organization, but most organizations are. Oil and Tobacco come to mind.
Anyway, sorry if I offendeed anyone.

Hey DT, I’m a big boy and usually ignore any personal

In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

attacks, but some don’t like anyone flaming anyone. Anyone can say something and have it taken the wrong way, even me.

re the subject – I don’t mind a company making money. I object to them lying through their teeth to do so. I also object to them abusing their client base.

I do most of my purchasing on line. But it’s not worthwhile going outside Australia for anything less than a dozen or so units – freight and customs costs are a horror (I used to do IT importations on a commercial level). the majority of the Australian on-line stores on carry the latest gear – for example, the three main sites I go to only have 64 bit CPUs, they sold all their 32 bit ones some months back and aren’t buying any, except on special orders.

5. Kool-Aid group…

In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

You may have a weak point there, but I’m one of those “industrial strength” M$ bashers. The group to which I belong must have wall-bash marks on our foreheads and pitted hands where we make a big fist and bang it on the desk, the VDT, … anything that’s near.

The #5. Kool-aid bunch don’t have years and years of calouses from experience built upon constant study to find a way to make the @$&*^$#% things work. For that same reason, they can’t complain about Linux because they don’t know when, or if, it’s running on the machine next to them. At least the iMacs next door are cute to look at – and some of them were so well designed, they had a hook/handle built right in to run my cable to the boat anchor, and that made them useful.

Finally, the be$t ba$her$ are tho$e who have used older, reeeeeeeaaaaaaaallllllyyyy reliable products and software in the past and have something to which to compare it so unfavorably. It’s OK, though, a couple more decades and we’ll be dead, or forget what we knew, and life can go on as though we, and better performance never existed.

Since you didn’t single Ernest out …

In reply to DE, Your unadulterated hatred for MS

I’m encouraged to read many of the posts on this particular issue because it demonstrates that many of us (as one put it where I could not respond) “old-farts” are writing from experience in what is now considered ancient history; but it is history and good history at that, so many of those who are relatively new to this field could really benefit from our knowledge, integrity, and experience.

The core issue(s) are that M$ has repeatedly demonstrated that they are focusing on a program which is hurting users in two ways: 1. They are defeating our ability to produce on machines with their OS by installing malware which is giving false positives requiring users to stop production and deal with the Mother$hip before proceeding, and;
2. They are beginning from a “the customer is a pirate unless we allow him/her to be a passenger” premise. We are guilty because we buy a machine with bundled ware.

All this and increased risk from the outside world and decreased reliability from the programs we bought and paid for.

Additionally, those of us who worked with much superior systems in the past (C/PM and DEC/VAX) can remember a time when things were provably better. That should not be discounted just because we’re considered old geekzers. We know whereof we speak and the tech world would improve their lot in life if they began to consider and understand that there was once a much more reliable standard.

You may have trouble hating, but we have more trouble than you trying to respect those who scorn proper quality, and find that digital bling is more important than usability and reliability. The forced changes being hurled at us from Redmond are not respecting those who use the products, rather they are mean, cruel, tricks to force more $$$ out of everyone. This deserves being hated from those who are better than the goons of M$. One day you will also join our ranks – after you have been shut down unjustly, and you must lose necessary time to do your job.
Only those who have no concern for the user, but prefer the idea of guaranteed profits from guaranteed breakdowns will find M$ to their liking.

I see M$ $upporter$ coming from only two camps today:
1. Tinkerers who prefer malware to productivity (see earlier articles), and;
2. Those who profit from others’ suffering without concern that there are no reliable solutions to the problem.

Neither of those two is going to find a friend in real business before the next decade. As it stands, IT will be known as being just one caste below lawyers and harlots. The heady days of IT being an elite group of problem-solvers are in their late sunset. We have only M$ undying propensity to destroy and lazy profiteering “techs” to thank for that.

I would have to go one step further

In reply to Since you didn’t single Ernest out …

95 was the beginning of the end for everything MS. That was the first MS produced OS that didn’t require an educated End User to use so all the highly qualified staff where let go to be replaced by minimum wage youngsters who don’t know any better than to Point & Click.

As recently as last year I was told that a [b]Mail Merge[/b] is not taught in advanced Office Classes as it’s too advanced and seldom used today. Back in the MS DOS Days if you couldn’t perform a Mail Merge in Word Perfect 5 or lower you didn’t stand a chance of getting that Data Entry Job let alone anything more important.

Over the years I’ve seen the position go from [b]Thank god your Here now all our Problems will be fixed[/b] to [b]God what the hell are you doing here and how much is it going to cost us this time you thieving Bastard?[/b]

Now my workmanship has not altered but what’s on the desktop has and that is what I constantly get hit with we paid for this and it should be working! One place that I went to to even asked me to see why the spell checker wasn’t working on every one of their new machines and all that they had installed was XP Home on a 25 station Peer to Peer network. The sales person had told them that was all that was required so that’s all that was sold to them and what tore it was one computer was sold with 2 monitors especially for this purpose and they didn’t provide any method to connect the other monitor. When I spoke to them they came up with some lame excuse that they didn’t realise that they wanted to use both monitors at the same time. Why in Gods name would you bother wasting your money if you didn’t want to use both together?

Personally as I now can do what I want and should have retired 16 years ago I’m not quite so bad off as most but the times are a changing and it will not be long till the Politicians and Used Car Salespersons are thought more highly of than an IT Pro as the first will be considered to be far more honest and not attempt to charge you more than the original purchase price to repair something that has broken just to save the stored data.

Even now with a lot of the off the shelf systems when they get a problem their first option is a wipe and install and to hell with the owners data it’s not important as it’s not part of the system. Then they will replace the faulty bit but only after blowing away every bit of the users data.

Col

You all just sound like conspiracy nuts to me

In reply to Since you didn’t single Ernest out …

I’ve had troubles with Windows and Linux systems. You learn how to make your systems work. Thats the bottom line.Thats I.T.

I couldn’t get malware if I tried.

Once again, no disrespect intended, but most MS bashers just sound like they are talking out of thier @$$es. I’m not so hot on MS business practices either, but if people are having all the problems they claim to be having with Windows machines, maybe it’s time to find a new profession.
MS may or may not always be the DeFacto.If and when that ceases to be, I personally won’t whine or cry about it, I will simply move on.
I just can’t get over how people act like they know BG personally, and that he PERSONALLY did THEM some kind of wrong.

If OS/2, H2O, C3PO, and OU812 are such wonderful OSes, then go ahead and see if your employers want to switch to those.
Let me know what they say

OK I’ll bite

In reply to Since you didn’t single Ernest out …

Just exactly where in the above did I mention anything about Billy Boy let alone making any indication that I know him?

All I’ve said in the above is that with the introduction of Windows 95 the highly educated end users have on the most part disappeared to be replaced by untrained people who know next to nothing and are expected to do the same job as the highly trained people where doing. I also said that basic things like how to do a Mail Merge are no longer being taught to the people who are paying good money to learn and get a job as some form of End User.

Now just how is this some form of Conspiracy?

It’s nothing more than [b]Pure Laziness[/b] on the part of the Business who use these systems and the schools who teach this stuff. Once if you couldn’t write a Macro you didn’t get a job as a Data Entry person now they call for a Programmer to write that same Macro that the end users of 10 odd years ago where doing without a second thought and generally speaking did a better job of it as well because they knew what it was that was required and didn’t write something and then say [b]Make It Work.[/b]

Sorry but as an IT Tech it’s not my job to run around writing Macros for some end user or to drop tools at the end of every Financial Year and change the Accounting Programs over to the Next Financial Year. This should be standard End User work and not the job of someone getting paid like I do for something so far below my skill set that it’s not funny.

I also don’t see just how MS fits into any form of Conspiracy about the Cowboy Sales People who sell anything to make a quick Buck at the expense of the customers needs.

But as you obviously have far more experience than little old me I’ll bow to your superior knowledge. Now perhaps you would like to come and face some of my customers the first time that I attend these places and see that they have paid 5 times too much for half the software and hardware that they need.

You say it’s all MS’s fault but I see it as a general dumbing down of the entire IT community and even worse inept sales people selling what they are told to sell as apposed to what the customer needs. MS is only involved as far as they make it easier for complete computer Illiterate people to think that they are capable of using a computer as well as some highly trained person but I personally don’t see how they contribute to the rubbish being sold to business by less than satisfactory Sales Staff.

At one place that I go to their new P4 took 30 minutes to boot of a morning and that was considered as good by the people who sold it to the business. The one that I replaced it with last financial year boots with the same program load in about 3 minutes and just does everything better. Incidentally it has XP pro and Office 2003 loaded on it as well as some proprietary programs specially written for a Doctors Surgery. I didn’t consider it a piece of [b]Good Business[/b] to load it with XP Home and Works like the previous one was provided.

I don’t have the slightest problem in using Windows where it makes sense or because of the required programs there is no option I however just don’t believe that it’s the only solution available in every situation.

Col

You have a problem counting !!

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Windows 2000 and Windows XP are distinct and different versions. Therefore, according to your progression Windows XP (2002) should be considered as BAD, which is of course not correct. That would then make Vista GOOD. By the way, in no way was Windows 95 bad either – it remains one of the most stable versions of Windows if you stop third party software from overwriting its system files with broken updates, and keep away from rubbish third party device drivers and rubbish memory modules.

Win 95 good?

In reply to You have a problem counting !!

Are you NUTS? Stupid? Criminally insane? The biggest beta release in computer history (through that date)? After 2 couple of dozen service releases it was fine. We stayed WFWG3.11 until well into 1996 before anything but test/demo machines were using 95. 98SE twice as stable. They are getting better. We should see a good stable OS directly out of the box the 2012ish.

What is Windows NT/98?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Umm I could have sworn these were 2 completely different Operating Sytems with massively different underlying technologies but then again I may be wrong…

Also, you and your pal can’t lump Windows 2000 and XP in together for the sake of your pattern!

Nice idea but come on!!

Hopeful for Vista

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

DOS 3.3: GOOD
DOS 4.2: BAD
DOS 5.0: GOOD
DOS 6.0: OKAY
DOS 6.22: GOOD
Windows 2.0: AWEFUL (quickly uninstalled)
Windows 3.0: OKAY
Windows 3.1/3.11 for WG: GOOD
Windows NT 3.0/95a: BAD
Windows 95b: GOOD
Windows NT 4.0/98: OKAY
Windows 98SE: GOOD
Windows ME: ABSOLUTELY AWEFUL!! Don’t do like this again!!
Windows 2000/XP: GREAT!!
Windows Vista: Hopeful!!

You are correct, especially on ME

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I think Microsoft has learned a lot from the experience of XP SP2, that I hope Vista should be a much more better OS.

Windows Multiple Errors

In reply to You are correct, especially on ME

That was the name my 13 year old (at the time) used to describe Windows ME. There certainly is congruence with my experience as an IT Manager as to the adage of don’t buy an even numbered version of Microsoft. My theory is that Microsoft lose their good people through promotion or departure following a successful release. The new people in the MS team then have to develop, endure & fix a poor release before they get it right with the next one.

Closer to the truth

In reply to Windows Multiple Errors

You may be closer to the truth than anyone else in this post.
In sports, now that there is free agency, championship teams fall apart, when the stars depart.
People write software not companys. In companys there are stars and duds. In companys, coming off of recent success, self promoting duds can convince management they are stars. You can polish up a dud, but it remains a dud. Stars working for duds soon learn the truth and find somewhere else to go.
When the duds make the company go through a bad period, they start to weed out the duds and look for stars.
Problem is that this cyclic bussines pattern starts to let the duds slip through the cracks and after a while you get dud build up, that is when the CEO retires with his fortune and leaves the duds to fend for themselves. Just a thought!!

WinME was a rush job

In reply to Windows Multiple Errors

Remember, Windows ME was put out for one reason only: appeasement.

Win98 was touted as the last DOS-based Windows; Windows 2000, running on the NT kernel, was going to be the ONLY version of Windows released for use by home and business. I remember predicting at the time that they would back off that claim and release a home version if only to keep from losing the home market. the hue and cry was loud and insistent enough that Me was released somewhat quietly and without any fanfare a few months after Win2k. In fact, I recall that I didn’t even hear about it until after it was released. It was a quick and dirty (REALLY dirty) “update” of Win98 in which, among other things, they remove some networking support in order to discourage businesses from using that instead of Win2k. It worked for us. We held onto Win98 until XP was released.

XP was the first version of Windows I felt totally comfortable and content with. I disliked NT and 2000 because it was hard to find things, and I didn’t like 9x because they were too unstable. XP was the first time MS got the useability of the 9x series blended well with the workhorse nature and stability of NT/2000. My co-workers were AMAZED to hear me say “I like this…” (being a Netware engineer, it’s been pretty much my schtick that nothing Redmond produced was any good).

Good, unbiased post

In reply to WinME was a rush job

Most people that insult ME do it on the pretense of hearsay, and have no clue what they are talking about. You summed up ME’s problem nicely.

ME did work

In reply to Good, unbiased post

I was forced (I know, nobody forced me, …) to have ME because it came bundled with the computer in the box. I live in a rural area, so my choices are further limited.

I had problems with ME, but not nearly as many or as bad as I experienced with 95 and 98/98SE at work. It allowed me to have thumbnails of photos and a slide show that XP fans all think is new. It hung and it crashed, but it had far fewer BSOD’s It also allowed me to save things from the internet by having a shortcut to the temp files; in XP you must go through several chutes and ladders and hope to get what you want – mostly not.

In an earlier response, you flamed me by telling me that those who, unlike I, are not speaking out their @$ find ways to MAKE IT WORK. Well, I made ME work, and – apart from upgrading to XP in order to install a 250gb HDD, I find that ME was far easier to use than XP – – – Home or Office. It also had fewer menacing “features”; I could use a Dazzle external (USB) card to capture video (like 98), but I could not send it out to a VHS machine, so my work was all for nothing if I wanted to produce a wedding. That’s why I hate M$. As soon as they see that someone has a new feature, they produce a schlepp version of that “feature” and make sure the “outsider” can’t be used any more. That same Dazzle card – although it will work on 98 and ME, is not allowed to be recognized by XP. That’s M$B$ and there have been laws to stop that crap, but M$ operates above and away from the laws.

So, I put it to you: Prove your superior position. Buy a Dazzle card (you can have mine) and Make It Work in XP, OK? Thought so.

Hi Teddy. Need a hug?

In reply to ME did work

When did I say ME didn’t work?

I was agreeing with his opinions.
‘ME was released somewhat quietly and without any fanfare ‘
‘…”update” of Win98 in which, among other things, they remove some networking support in order to discourage businesses from using that instead of Win2k.’

As far as a functioning OS, the few times I came into contact with it, it seemed to work just fine.

What does a Dazzle card in XP have to do with anything? Um, I guess I could try it,( Don’t know why anyone would want to, or why you’d want me to) but I’m scared to death to give you my address. 🙂

Wow! That’s a lot for me to respond to, but here goes…

In reply to Hi Teddy. Need a hug?

This particular forum has really gone off on ME, and I was being the odd man out, I guess. I really hated ME, but find that it was much better than 95, 98, 98SE and XP. Had to use them all 50 hours a week for years, so I know whereof I speak there – except there was no ME at work.

I bought a Dazzle card some years ago. I want to capture video. Dazzle worked in and out in 98; capture only in ME, and nada in XP. I still have the card and it still could be useful for .avi, except M$ has given it the “last rites” and Dazzle is part of Pinnacle and they have their own external USB device – which doesn’t work, the audio lags exponentially, so after 45 minutes or so, it looks like an original “Godzilla” flick or worse.

Now you could claim that it’s not M$ fault, but I contend that M$ deliberately locked it out in favor of their own hyper-limited movie maker, and Dazzle/Pinnacle/Aver just threw in the towel and tried a new design which doesn’t work, so I blame M$ for planned obsolesence and Dazzle/Pinnacle/Aver for selling crap at premium prices. Both should fix the problem and I should be able to use any USB device I own, … which worked on previous systems. Can you not understand that?

… And, no, I don’t need a hug – at least not from you. I have a wonderful wife who gives me State-Of-The-Art hugs, but she threw in the towel on computers when Honeywell/Bull closed down their main frame division, so she’s no help there.

All I want is a machine and OS that works, that doesn’t constantly require maintainence and updates and time spent with the Mother$hip before I can produce the stuff I bought these machines to do.

Hey MT, have you tried Linux for your Dazzler – I’ve got a box

In reply to Hi Teddy. Need a hug?

full of old Win 98 based games I love, that won’t run, no matter what you do, in XP. I’d given up on them, until I tried Linux with Cedega, they run great. You could try a Linux install with WINE, or Crossover and install your original Windows based software from way back when, and see how that goes.

So ME is better than XP because of the Dazzler card?

In reply to Hi Teddy. Need a hug?

I never knocked ME in the first place, and you act like I did, which was my point.
I tire of this

ME is not Better; XP is worse.

In reply to Hi Teddy. Need a hug?

I’m trying – repeatedly – to show that M$ has a “long train of abuses” dedicated to cutting off things (hardware and software) that worked on their earlier versions, and this by design and purpose.

There is nothing about the Dazzle card that makes it inferior to anything out there today, just that it was there before others. True, newer ones facilitate “instant” compression (MPEG-2) for faster turnaround, and some offer HDTV, but the total case for usable .avi files from analogue is still valid.

Ernest: we gotta get together, … soon! I’m really looking into some Distro, had thought SuSe until M$ changed it to $u$e (sorry, DT, I just can’t help my$elf any more…)

What program(s) are you u$ing to capture, edit, and, … hopefully burn to DVD?

Your pattern is flawed.

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

For this pattern to be true, it would have to look like this:

DOS 3.3: GOOD
DOS 4.2: BAD
DOS 5.0: GOOD
DOS 6.0: BAD
DOS 6.22: GOOD
Windows 3.0: BAD
Windows 3.1: GOOD
Windows 95: BAD
Windows NT: GOOD
Windows 98: BAD
Windows ME: GOOD
Windows 2000: BAD
Windows XP: GOOD
Windows Vista: ?

This is obviously flawed.
You can’t lump together totally different technology like you did for the sake of a clever little pattern.

You have left out some versions and the fact that Vista has several version

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

After Windows 98 my experience was:
20000 Good
Me Bad
XPHome Bad
XP Pro Good
XP SP1 Good
XP SP2 Bad
Vista which version to compare?

Windows Vista : GOOD

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

That stops the trend dead in it’s shoes!
VISTA works just fine and I have only the RC1 version as issued to testers directely from Microcost. So far so good.

So it’s good for you, fine

In reply to Windows Vista : GOOD

One happy customer, many billions to go.
I dare say if you go off as home user by vista capable hardware and you only use applications designed for it, it will be OK. Especially after a service pack or two.

A place where I worked, where they still have a large win95 base (1000s) and some very old in house and 3rd applications that work with their ibm and vax kit which are absolutely critical to their business aren’t going to greet it with any fervour.

Don’t say oh they should have upgraded ages ago etc. What they have runs their business effectively, they see no need for change nor is there much in Vista that offers them any increase in effectiveness compared to the cost of doing an upgrade. So quite rightly they won’t.

Personally I think MS have just given them the incentive for a switch to linux, which is something they’ve been looking at for a while. Training and infrastructure changes have put them off up to press, but they are were starting to look less of a problem against XP never mind Vista.

I concur, Linux looks a better option now.

In reply to So it’s good for you, fine

Most of those looking at Linux instead of Vista, are us techies.

M$ pooh-poohs that, think we are a just a few geeks.

But they are wrong, we also happen to be IT consultants, IT managers and the like. What we have is influence.
We will be recommending various Linux options to our customers, be they in the consumer marker, or in business. we’ll even demo a few good free ones.
Once they see what Linux can do nowadays, and then start looking at REAL COLD HARD facts, such as [i]MONEY[/i], against what performance improvements there are(nt), they will be voting with their wallets.

and that is just the beginning, ‘cos word will spread……

Linux can’t touch the client server environment

In reply to I concur, Linux looks a better option now.

and everything is not Web server in enterprise solutions.

Anybody at home ?

In reply to Linux can’t touch the client server environment

Which sort of servers can’t you run on linux?
Not products, types.

Bear in mind my last job was adding five more databases servers under linux to the twenty-eight the company already had.

You need to get out more.

Easy answer Tony

In reply to Anybody at home ?

They are unable to run the Windows 2003 Servers on Linux because he can’t get it to install into Windows. 😀

Col

There’s no such thing as windows 2003 :D

In reply to Easy answer Tony

now linux only does web servers and windows is the only compatible operating system.

I despair, I truly do. The Gartner IT education program has been far more effective than I thought.

Tony you have to forgive them

In reply to Anybody at home ?

Because they know not what they talk about. But your right that edumication system leaves a lot to be desired doesn’t it?

I had a guy here try to install 2003 ES on a 2,000 CPU Blade because it had to run Windows. It didn’t matter that the Graphic Rendering program used by the Graphic Artists was a Nix only application and there is nothing capable of doing the job on a Windows Platform. This new guy had to strip out SuSe9 overnight and install 2003 and try to make it work.

Luckily he didn’t know about the spare Boot Drive that I have for it locked away in a safe so I just swapped out the boot drive got the system up & running again and then cloned the boot drive back over the Windows install. I really don’t think that he even thought about just how many of those CPU’s that they where paying for would actually run he just had to have Windows on the system.

After I fixed it I believe that the guy in charge of the CG unit surrounded that blade with razor wire to keep him away from it. I didn’t have the heart to tell him that it could be accessed remotely but as I didn’t give the Tech the password that I had changed I wasn’t too worried. 😀

Anyway if he had of messed with it again he would have been killed immediately and hung on the surrounding building as a lesson to anyone else who tried to mess with that unit. Crude but extremely effective. :^0

Col

The I only know windows so that must be the

In reply to Tony you have to forgive them

way to do it manouvre.

I too have seen that.

Linux can’t touch the client server environment….

In reply to Linux can’t touch the client server environment

Maybe not, but you can run a Unix box.

ummmmm!

In reply to Linux can’t touch the client server environment….

If all you know how to use is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail! (Or something like that)
🙂

yeah, Vista works fine, if you can afford new top range hardware

In reply to Windows Vista : GOOD

and want a machine primarily for multimedia use. For the average office environment it’s expensive rubbish, all eye candy.

You can spend less than half of the money and get a box running XP, or for about a tenth of Vista, you can get Linspire.

Lets be honest

In reply to yeah, Vista works fine, if you can afford new top range hardware

The business world is not exactly ready to spend some money… but they should. There way behind the times. Everyone working IT knows we get the short end of the money stick, but businesses could benefit from better systems.

The reqs to run Vista are in line with current computer trends. At least Apple has it right with their method–they just dont sell anything older than a year or two. If businesses would keep up with current hardware then they wouldn’t have to spend so much to keep up. Besides, if your company has a few hundred machines, a smart IT manager would have a contract with Dell or HP anyway, and you’ll be rolling in new pc’s each quarter.

It’s funny, because corporate America will complain about lack of security, then complain when they have to purchase a new product to get it. Thats business.

Lets be really honest

In reply to Lets be honest

In business security on individual workstations is not a priority, on the boundaries it’s extremely important and usually hardware.
If you’ve got a good perimeter then running 95/98 inside it doesn’t matter does it.
No to mention most of the script kiddie stuff doesn’t work on it any more.
Most of the added features on workstations where a w/p, worksheet may be access, email etc in 95 and 98 are perfectly adequate for general business needs.

Yeah lets be honest – business should not need to replace

In reply to Lets be honest

any equipment until after it has ended its usefulness, or a replacement will improve productivity enough to justify the expense of early replacement. I’m leaving out replacements required for changed legislative needs, as that is not a business decision, but a legal one.

So, in business terms, the hardware and software should not need replacing until it falls apart, or no longer performs adequately. I know many small businesses that are still running old pentiums with Win 98 and corporate software quite OK, many are doing the same with NT, and Win 2K.

Now lets look at Vista – to use it, you have to get new hardware, and only the newest hardware. MS and hardware manufacturers don’t make drivers for their new hardware that suits the older OSs. Very few Windows based applications work well on any version of Windows, except the one it was designed for. Trying running Win 98 software in XP, and you’ll see what I mean.

If you are a MS Windows based environment, any significant upgrade of hardware and / or software, means a full replacement of all, soon after, to keep them compatible.

I know of two businesses in Sydney, both are in the same industry, in different suburbs, both are small businesses and their total revenue over the last 10 years are within 2% of each other. They both work off the same profit margins, yet one has made a lot more profit than the other. The difference has been the overhead costs, not the direct operational costs.

When they set up, one went with Linux based computer systems for their office staff, 4 people. They initially installed Red Hat and Star Office. Office staff has increased to 10, and new systems easily integrated. The original corporate software still runs on the latest hardware – they replaced all systems in Aug 2005. They’re still running the same accounting software, had a a few minor changes for legislative needs, and two other corporate packages are unchanged. Their total IT costs over the ten years are only 5% of the other business.

The second business, run by the first guy’s cousin, set up with Windows, as that was what the office manager, the guy’s wife, was used to. Since then they’ve had to pay to replace hardware twice as often and also buy accounting package upgrades when they changed from Win 95 to Win NT 4, and Win XP. On top of buying upgrades for two legislative changes. They also have more tech call outs than the guy with the Linux set up. Both started with 4 office staff and have increased since, the Windows guy works longer hours as he can only afford 8 staff.

Having worked on a high security gateway, I agree with the other person who said that once you have a good perimeter you don’t need to worry about security at the desktop. Mind you a good perimeter also includes good, up to date, virus scanning of all mail and other incoming traffic. This is where many businesses fail to do their job properly and need desktop security.

Well my Vista PC is not top of the line

In reply to yeah, Vista works fine, if you can afford new top range hardware

This is my system that I built in 2004(for Windows XP)
MSI K8N NEO Platinum
AMD Sempron X64 3300+
2 512meg DDR Kingston PC3200
WD1200JB SE 120 gig
Maxtor Diamond10 S ATA 80gig
WD 800JB (2)
MicroAdvantage DVD +- RW Dual-L
Nvidia FX6200 256meg memory
AverMedia Ultra TV 1500 MCE(added June 2006)
Ultra V-series 500watt PSU
Ultra Media Reader
Dual-Boot Vista Ultimate X64/Vista Ultimate
MS Optical Mouse(USB)
Hitachi 19″ CRT
Acer AL1717BBM LCD 17″monitor(added this year)
I built this pc before I was even invited to beta test Vista. As can be seen it is not top of the line.
At this time I run Vista Ultimate X64 99.9% of the time. Vista runs with no problems.
Mike

With what we get down here, that’s so close to the top

In reply to Well my Vista PC is not top of the line

for then it ain’t funny. 1 GB RAM, SATA drive, 256 MB Video. At that time, most average price systems in Australia were selling with 512 MB RAM and 128 MB graphics. Many motherboards for sale still didn’t have SATA.

The info I’ve seen on Vista says your wasting your time if your system doesn’t have SATA or PCI Ex – so the majority of existing systems won’t run it, thus forcing hardware upgrades.

The system above is very up market for someone who just wants to do basic web surfing, word processing and the like. You could get a system for half the price and still do that, but forget Vista, it won’t run.

Ok one of the pc’s I test Vista on

In reply to With what we get down here, that’s so close to the top

uses a AMD Athlon XP 1700+/512meg memory/64 meg video card/NO sata drive. Runs Vista Home Premium very nicely.
Mike

Well I’m going to ask anyway

In reply to Ok one of the pc’s I test Vista on

Has anyone seen the new [b]RSOD[/b] on Vista yet?

With every build that I’ve used I have yet to see it even though the system has fallen over many times and performed a warm boot particularly with the Beta2 and not so much with the latter releases but I just haven’t seen Vista [b]RSOD[/b] out yet.

Col

RSOD?

In reply to Well I’m going to ask anyway

RED Screen O’ Death??
😉

Yes that right

In reply to Well I’m going to ask anyway

MS promised that the BSOD would be a thing of the past with Vista so instead of having a Blue SOD they have changed it to Red.

Apparently you’ll only see the Blue one when some thing really goes wrong with the system but you should see a Red Screen of Death when you get Fatal Errors.

Col

They’re waiting

In reply to Well I’m going to ask anyway

Until the people pay. You don’t expect all the ‘Bells & Whistles’ to come in the Beta do you? Na, just wait, I think we’ll see the RSOD soon enough. (Then we’ll be seeing plenty red. 🙁 )

edited, damn big fingers on these little keys.

Well in that case

In reply to Well I’m going to ask anyway

I’ll just have to hope that it’s a nice Red Colour so you can read the error message. 😀

Col

Holy crap, how funny

In reply to Well I’m going to ask anyway

Is that really true? I thought you were kidding. 😉
Kind of like with XP saying no more BSODs, when all they did was hide them. Which incedently, made troubleshooting all the more difficult.
Is there still the option to hide/unhide the R/BSOD’s?

EDIT:
Clarify

Well I can only repeat what the MS People have said at Partner Meetings

In reply to Well I’m going to ask anyway

Apparently the BSOD will be a thing of the past with Vista in all but the most severe problems.

Apparently if you get a [b]Fatal Exception Error Occurs[/b] you are supposed to see a RSOD and if it’s really bad you’ll see the good old reliable BSOD.

What’s got me wondering is what is worse than a Fatal Exception Error and when you see a BSOD on Vista do you get the MI message that this will self destruct in 5 seconds? 😀

Col

More hearsay

In reply to With what we get down here, that’s so close to the top

Minimum requirements for basic Vista include an 800 MHz or faster CPU and 512 Mbytes of RAM. Your graphics subsystem only needs to support Direct X9.
Source:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1964528,00.asp

PCs under that should be thrown in a trash heap anyway. EPC has boxes with those specs for about $200.00

Everyone is knocking something they know nothing about. The Aeroglass $h1t is what takes all the hardware requirements.

I’m loading RC1 as a dual boot now. It is on a good machine though. We will be loading it on a laptop tomorrow.
If it sucks, I will be the first to knock it (I knocked XP over 2000 until I actually USED it)
But at least I WILL TRY IT FIRST.

Prices in Australia are higher than the USA,

In reply to More hearsay

double them as a rough estimate. However, late last year I got the stated requirements for Vista from the MS website, costed the components, and compared them with the iMac of the same standard, available at that time. Once you added in the cost of the software to make them compatible in capability – the iMac was much cheaper. I posted the figures on a thread here at TR at the time.

Build the same machine as a Linux box and it is cheaper again.

I tried Vista last year, didn’t like. The first thing I had to do, was go out and buy a new hard drive. I have several IDE drives of various sizes, but Vista wouldn’t even look at the system without a SATA drive in it. Then i t had a hernia because I wanted it to use the IDE drive as well, it refused. P4 3 ghz system and Vista performed worse than XP did on it. I gave up on it.

You could be right in that the current version of Vista, it’s the Aeroglass that needs the hardware, but that’s the core aspects of what MS are selling in Vista, the eye candy.

Just a suggestion here

In reply to More hearsay

When you load Vista remember to load the Beta of Office 2007.

You’ll get a real kick out of the new user interface that presents what you need when you need it.

It’s just like IE7 lots of pretty Eye Candy and just about impossible to find what you really want.

BTW Aero is supposed to work with a 64 MEG Video Card according to the Boys & Girls at MS. I’ve tried in on a Pentium Extreme with 4 GIG of RAM and a 512 MEG Video Card. It’s much slower than XP to load and even slower than XP and Office 2003 to use the Office Application on and that is when you can find what you need. Try performing a Mail Merge in 2007 you’ll find it interesting but don’t cheat and look up the help files as MS has already promised that with the New Interactive Interface in Office you get the tools that you need when you need them and you don’t need to go hunting around looking for hidden things like you had to previously.

Col

Well my Vista PC is not top of the line

In reply to yeah, Vista works fine, if you can afford new top range hardware

This is my system that I built in 2004(for Windows XP)
MSI K8N NEO Platinum
AMD Sempron X64 3300+
2 512meg DDR Kingston PC3200
WD1200JB SE 120 gig
Maxtor Diamond10 S ATA 80gig
WD 800JB (2)
MicroAdvantage DVD +- RW Dual-L
Nvidia FX6200 256meg memory
AverMedia Ultra TV 1500 MCE(added June 2006)
Ultra V-series 500watt PSU
Ultra Media Reader
Dual-Boot Vista Ultimate X64/Vista Ultimate
MS Optical Mouse(USB)
Hitachi 19″ CRT
Acer AL1717BBM LCD 17″monitor(added this year)
I built this pc before I was even invited to beta test Vista. As can be seen it is not top of the line.
At this time I run Vista Ultimate X64 99.9% of the time. Vista runs with no problems.
Mike

Top of the line-I don’t think so

In reply to yeah, Vista works fine, if you can afford new top range hardware

I built this pc in December of 2004 for Windows XP Pro(I built this before I was invited to beta test Vista)-as can be seen this is not a
top of the line PC.
MSI K8N NEO Platinum
AMD Sempron X64 3300+
2 512meg DDR Kingston PC3200
WD1200JB SE 120 gig
Maxtor Diamond10 S ATA 80gig
WD 800JB (2)
MicroAdvantage DVD +- RW Dual-L
Nvidia FX6200 256meg memory
AverMedia Ultra TV 1500 MCE(added in July)
Ultra V-series 500watt PSU
Ultra Media Reader
Dual-Boot Vista Ultimate X64/Vista Ultimate
MS Optical Mouse(USB)
Hitachi 19″ CRT
Acer AL1717BBM LCD 17″monitor(bought this year)
I was dual-booting Xp with Vista till RC1-with the stability and ease of use plus the speed of video processing.
I use Vista X64 Ultimate 99% of the time.
Mike

I looks a super machine Mike

In reply to Top of the line-I don’t think so

No wonder you have no problems with Vista 😉

I say this from the perspective of my small home network of Pentium class Is, and IIs, headed by a magnificent PIII, all dual booting off ~10GB main hard drives 256MB RAM (multi booting [u][i]more[/i][/u] than that if you count the Linux distros I am testing out)

Cor……

Wish I was rich too….

Super pc I wish but next one I’m building will be or close anyway

In reply to I looks a super machine Mike

AMD X2 4200+
MSI K9N F Nvidia chipset
Ultra DDR2 Dual Channel 1 gig memory
Evga Geforce 7300 GS PCI Express video card
2 160 gig hd Sata Raid 0+1
Floppy drive
DVD +- RW DL
AverMedia PCTV Ultra 1500
Total cost not counting S&H $703
Now this I call a near Super PC
Mike

PS This will take me about 3 to 6 months to buy all the parts being on limited income.

But what you’ve forgotten Michael

In reply to Super pc I wish but next one I’m building will be or close anyway

Is that the cost of the OEM MS Software even if you just install Vista & Office 2007 is going to be as much as the hardware again.

I get a lot of phone calls from domestic buyers who are willing to spend around $700.00 AU on a complete system and to be honest I can not buy the OEM MS Product for that let alone the hardware that they seem to think that they should have. Of maybe it’s just MS Legal Department attempting to get me to sell them Pirate Software as I’ve been reported at least 3 times now by one Government Department who’s Volume License comes up as Not Genuine every time that a Service Pack or something becomes available. What’s even funner is that I didn’t supply anything at all it was all brought directly by some Faceless Bureaucrat directly off MS but because those Bureaucrats can never make a mistake they push the blame onto the people who keep the system running. You really know that you have a problem when even the Governments own IT section will not deal with this department. 😀

But when I’m told that these people can buy a complete system with XP Pro & Office I suggest that they ring a phone number that I give then to check it out. I just pass them directly back onto MS Anti Piracy Hotline or the last time after they got one really good potential buyer I suggested to install Open Office instead of MS Office and make it affordable under their upper price restrictions and even then it came to $24.00 more than they wanted to pay so I didn’t get a sale. :^0

Col

Actually I did not forget

In reply to But what you’ve forgotten Michael

Hopefully they will do as they did with Xp-after Xp went RTM-I got 2 licenses for the OS.
This time I had 3 pc’s I tested on.
Mike
PS even if I don’t get onethat way-I’ll buy at least one copy of Vista Home Premium.

I totaly agree

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

All the mentioned o/systems are as you say all used and I thin the same way.

Derek Fell

abusing statistics

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

It’s a bit naughty to lump 2000 and XP together just to prove your point. Let’s hope that Vista benefits from the rule “never two without three”.

2000 – GOOD
XP – GOOD
Vista – will have to be GOOD

good and bad

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I do not agree with this simplistic analysis. Windows 95 was not that bad, it started quickly, you didn’t need much security in those days. Windows 98 had that bad shutdown problem. I hated Windows 2000 – it was too slow. It had too much security built-in. Later experience has proved my point – you can’t rely on Windows for security. 2 good points in Win2k were that it had no antivirus or firewall, so you could get something good, like Zonealarm firewall and AVG antivirus. Windows XP has its share of idiotic error messages, eg ‘ This program could not initialise as this station is trying to shut down’

re: good and bad

In reply to good and bad

imho, you say having no firewall is a “good” thing?! Zonealarm was a good concept, but lets the whole app thru and back in again; not to mention the constant need to click allow for every process. for end users, they claimed dns requests was me “hacking” them and i just simply had to drop them because i spent too much time going thru networking 101 with them that they misunderstood anyway.

Puzzled

In reply to re: good and bad

How are you doing two ways comms if you block one leg?
I’m sure all of us would prefer a hardware firewall than a software one, but ZoneAlarm, Sygate etc were a much better alternative that XP’s when it came out with XP SP2. At least they have the facility to stop applications ‘dialing’ out.

Configuration is a pain and an integrated firewall set from policies will be an improvement though.

The education issue is a problem every where PC’s were not designed as appliances. To make them into one, someone has to lobotomise them. Lucky us eh?

also puzzled

In reply to Puzzled

I think you’re confusing the “firewall” in SP1 with the SP2 version. Sure, two way comms are necessary; but that was just the problem with ZoneAlarm, when two way comms were necessary, you had to open up the whole app; unlike SP2 firewall that allows return traffic. I found ZoneAlarm “configuration” more of a pain and headache. I did like Sygate over the earlier versions of Windows Firewall (pre-SP2), but likewise, opened the whole app, not just the port to listen on…maybe it was just me, maybe I didn’t have enough time to answer all of the Yes’s and OK’s to properly test the product, but I found it to be a hinderance and in each case found it just easier and less expensive (man hours) to go the hardware route.

What I like about XPSP2 Firewall is that at least users aren’t left “naked” before they could be educated to see the advantages of a hardware setup and in a blown up situation that called you on the weekends with a wipe and a tutorial to complete when done.

Now that indeed was a good thing

In reply to also puzzled

The number of people I talked to who plugged their PC into broadband to download a firewall, av etc.
Poor buggers had a back door in their system before they could create a directory to save the download.
I want a hardware firewall, keep meaning to get sorted, but the missus spends my money on ‘important’ things.
I’m well out of date on the admin side, so if Santa is nice to me I’ll be posting my first questions in January, after liberal use of google of course.

Sygate only causes me two problems, I have to allow my avg virus scanner to check for updates every time it updates (exe changes). Also it does not work too well with profiles, who ever logs on first get’s it in their intray.

not an it guy

In reply to good and bad

I am not an it guy but let me start out by saying that everyone seems to have something different to say about each version of windows. Someone will complain no matter what, but here is the big thing if you dont like it dont use it or better yet spend millions to delvope and publish your own os no one can fix everything that needs to be done in an os. Why are there not so many viruses ect for linux well look around and see how many peoople use linux compared to windows. Every one seems to think that Bill Gates has the smartest people in the world working for him but this is not true there are much smarter people out there after all who do you think write viruses, spyware that find and use vulnerabilies in ms. If ms had the smartest people all these holes would be pluged before the first release and you would never need updates because it would be perfect the first time which in turn would lead to better hardware which inturn would lead to new oses……

Not Quite True…

In reply to not an it guy

I believe that there ARE some of the smartest people on the planet working for Microsoft. The issues you describe, I believe, are a result of numbers and not smarts. You may have a thousand people working on Vista, but potentially millions nit-picking on every little part of the code seeing where they can hack in. Even when it’s a team, they have years to look at any part of the code, work on it on the instruction level, and try to hack it. That’s something that the relatively small group at MS can’t possibly do.

It’s my contention that most of the Linux distros (just as an example) are no more or less secure than XP or Vista, but thy don’t have the numbers of people trying to break in, nor by and large are they protecting things that people want to keep them out of.

When you’re talking about mllions of lines of code, written in some high-level language, you are going to have holes. It’s inevitable. Any software package is going to have them. Even games have patches preleased for them, and no one is hacking them trying to get your bank account number. What you hope is that when vulnerabilities are found, they are addressed immediately and a patch provided. As long as that happens, then any OS you use is going to be as safe as you can make it. (Excluding OSes such as 95 and 98 which didn’t have security as a major consideration in design.

Doesn’t matter how smart the developers are

In reply to Not Quite True…

Business requirements override them. MS’s selling and marketing points is accessibility not security. The latter has been an after thought.

MS opened all their doors (and windows 😀 )and then put guards on them when they discovered they weren’t the only people going through them.
nix based system close all the doors and then only allow people in the admin says can come in.
Also getting in doesn’t mean you can do anything. Think of ‘nix based systems as always running in vista’s protected mode only better, because it was designed like that from the ground up.

So your contention is wrong.

not an it guy

In reply to Doesn’t matter how smart the developers are

I am just saying that no matter how smart you are there is always someone somewhere that is smarter. and they will go to great lengths to prove it even criminal links. you dont think bill gates got where he is today by abiding by the law prefectly he may have never broken a law but l would bet he sure as hell bent a few into horsehsoes and pretezles. just has plenty of money to protect himself and cover it up, and then cry and wine when someone does the same thing to him. Mild piracy is what made ms what ms is today back in the early years we didnt have 100 bucks to spend on win98 so 4 of us got together and went and bought it then in stalled it on 4 machines still have the cd somewhere so now you have four win users instead of none then four told friends and four of them went out and did the same so on and so forth but now bill has too much money for that wants that other 300 dollars so he came up with wga and the smartest people out there have come up with a way around it and now he is ticked. so ms doesnt want to keep going with xp it wants something new after all they dont sell the updates they are free new oses however cost $$$ and that is what ms want our $$$$$$$ …..

Well I would n’t call Bill a crook

In reply to not an it guy

a very astute businessman though definitely.
Bill’s goal in life was to put a PC Joe Average could use in very house. He’s come pretty damn close with that. Note the goal makes no mention of quality and security, now normally you couldn’t get away with that, but no competition = no requirement to compete.

So everyone who goes around skipping and clapping at new versions of windows is not only more money in his wallet, it’s more nuts in his hand for the next planned version.

The industry as a whole is massively dependant on whatever comes out of Redmond. This is not a coincidence, it’s not good either.

I would.

In reply to Well I would n’t call Bill a crook

I’d also call Alphonso Capone a crook.

Bill’s goal in life was to take money from the pockets of every Joe Average he could, and also be bowed to as the Lord of all Computer World except for the only “competition” he would allow, the childish Apple minions, remembering that Apple was first a simple video game with an added keyboard and memory and, … later a mouse stolen from elsewhere. It was “given”/placed into schools for free so kids would grow up to accept and appreciate the easy “learning curve” (a single-button mouse and pretty little pictures to click rather than requiring typed instructions – funny, we still can’t get things done on the latest Macs as easily as we can on IBM legacy machines; but that’s another separate article). It strongly appears that his goal was to bring the business, commercial, and intellectual world to their knees before him. Now he is closer to that goal than ever. Accident or design?

The industry that is “as a whole, … massively dependant on whatever comes out of Redmond” is going to experience burning this year unlike anything in history. I’m just one of countless millions who are past the “last straw” of botched OS’es, botched patches, botched “fixes” and now being treated as the “bad-guy” when M$ has found that the best way to “fix” a malware is to place the blame on the user.

If that’s not crooked in your book, well, … I just can’t find the words.

He’s no more a crook

In reply to Well I would n’t call Bill a crook

than any other successful businessman. To call him one is to be a hypocrite.

Everyone tries to get the best deal for themself.
Everyone puts effort into securing their future.

If he’s a crook everyone is a crook.

He’s very good at what he does including bending rules and getting away with it. We let him do it, nobody else. We made him rich, nobody else.
Inform people who think the sun shines out his of arse for technical reasons all you want, as a businessman though he’s self evidently impossible to challenge.

Actually…

In reply to good and bad

Actually, win9x worked okay after I started deleting the contents of the TEMP folder with a batch file at boot. There were some other tricks that I don’t recall anymore, but 9 out of 10 that would clear up a lot of wierd problems.

Logical??

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Umm, following your logic, as Windows 2000 and Windows XP are different products, it should be:

Windows 2000 Good, Windows XP Bad, Vista Good

This is so lame.

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

This is so lame it isn’t even worthy of being in this column.

Hopefully, it is supposed to be humorous because it certainly isn’t tech-worthy.

Twisting facts to fit your logic

In reply to This is so lame.

The lamest part of this is that you lumped together NT with 98 and 2000 with XP. If you are going to lump things together, which is lame, then NT would go with 95 and XP would go with 2003 Server. 2000 could only be lumped into Professional, Server, etc.

Contrived

In reply to Twisting facts to fit your logic

I agree. This list is so contrived it’s embarrasing. The data has been manipulated so badly to fit the the theory it’s laughable.

In fact, if we agree with the original author about which OS’s are good or bad the data shows a trend of good releases (Windows NT, 2000, XP) which would seem to indicate that Vista will be good as well. Whether we agree with the original author’s point of view about which releases are good or bad, well that’s another debate…

Service packs – same rule

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

This “rule” also applies to NT service packs, but viceversa. If anyone remebers, NT SP4 was bad enough (it altered something in the SAM encryption algorithms). Overall, yes, it seems we do have a pattern.

Vista Candidate 2

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

In addition to all the versions noted, I am also running VISTA Candidate 2. Except for a couple of applications, the OS is performing well — so far. Maby because of the 2 version?

Who knows……

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

….but XP does anything I require of it and I have no need nor desire in trading up anytime soon. As the old saying goes, “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.” By the time I may need Vista it will probably be perfect.

1 more thing

In reply to Who knows……

I will never use Vista if Windows follows through with any kinds of plans to monopolize anti-virus by shutting out any anti-virus vendors. That is like General Motors building cars which only run on a secret formula which you then must get from a GM dealership—I don’t think so. There are other OS.

Trouble is going to be lack of support

In reply to Who knows……

A few years an MS won’t release security fixes, or anything else for XP. Also, once Vista is released, they’ll not put much effort into keeping XP secure or helping people write drievrs etc for it. Thus it will not be compatible with new hardware or peripherals. Try getting a new printer with Win NT or Win 2K drivers – only get them if tis a Win 2k/XP driver because they may be similar.

Sabotage

In reply to Trouble is going to be lack of support

That’s a sneaky way to “sabotage” their old products so you will be forced to buy new ones.
Of course I will be jumped on with all four feet by the Microsoft cheerleaders for being a “Linux fanboy” or “zealot” even though I didn’t even mention Linux. I don’t know why they can’t see through the smokescreens when it’s ever so clear to me.

There are none so blind …

In reply to Sabotage

… as those who refuse to see.

And, …

In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is in BIG trouble at midnight!

Hearsay again- This is my point

In reply to Trouble is going to be lack of support

You are just giving speculation and opinions. You have no way of knowing if anything you said in your post is true or not. You’re going on about something that isn’t even available to the public yet, and stating your opinions as fact

My personal experience with drivers have been the opposite of yours. I feel it’s easier to find legacy Win drivers than Linux. That doesn’t mean I should go around saying there are no Linux drivers. I realize that could be due to my own lack of knowledge

Not hearsay, but some speculation – based on MS announcements

In reply to Trouble is going to be lack of support

Try getting drivers for brand new hardware for the older versions of Windows – few make them, they all assume that you have the latest one or two versions of Windows if you buy new hardware. Check out the big five web sites, look at what drivers are available for the older versions of Windows for the specific hardware in their systems. Check the printer and scanner web sites for older Windows drivers for new gear – not many have any.

MS themselves have announced they’re stopping support of their software at certain dates, that will flow through to the other people.

As to Linux drivers, well. This year I bought a new system, it’s a 64 bit system. I even bought a copy of Win XP Pro 64 bit edition to go with it. had troubles getting it to work. Eventually, I had to use another system to get 64 bit drivers for the graphics card, sound card, and network interface before Windows would work properly with them. Never did get the full use of my 5 button MS Intellimouse. MS didn’t make a 64 bit driver for it until 6 months later, and Windows would automatically ditch the 32 bit driver and replace it with a generic 3 button mouse 64 bit driver – it always knows better than the owner / user.

yet when I tried loading some Linux distros on it, released at the same time as 64 bit XP Pro, they loaded perfectly with 64 bit drivers for all the hardware – they were on the disc already. Since then I’ve found that most Linux distros have repositories of drivers for their distro that has most of the common drivers easily available. I’ve only been really trying to use Linux at home since about Feb this year, when I got fed up with WGA screwing my system up.

edited to correct typo

What’s in a name?

In reply to Not hearsay, but some speculation – based on MS announcements

I have always heard that it is good to establish a good name and then live up to it.
d…t……l is a name I would not want to be associated with or be considered as having lived up to it.

I understand your points in several posts here and I have also looked over d-t’s and yours make sense and evince experience. ‘Nuff said.

Thanks!

P.S. I’m thinking of changing my name because it’s too close to mediated, and I just can’t mediate betwixt such incompatable divergence.

Now you’ve hurt my feelings….;)

In reply to What’s in a name?

Slamming something that you haven’t tried based on past experiences makes good posts?

My name actually does reflect the fact that I, nor anyone else, will ever know everything. You don’t have to listen to me, because I am another nameless faceless entity on the Internet, just like everyone else.

I try to gather information, not spread mis information because of whatever my bias may be.

Nope, the Media in your name suits your opinion just fine. 😉

Um, ‘Nuf said 😉

Ok, give yourself the hug you offered me.

In reply to Now you’ve hurt my feelings….;)

I don’t get my feelings hurt quite that way. Mine are hurt when I try to do something and things or people get in my way and prevent me.

I can understand your position on slamming something before it’s tried, but not based on past experiences. Here’s why: I have heard politicians bark and seranade “voters” now for over 50 years. Do we have ANY of the promises fulfilled? HA! (OK men walked on the moon, but JFK wasn’t there to call them and it took thousands of people in science and engineering to get them there, not political speeches.)

M$ has been replacing stuff for decades, not, as some worshippers constantly claim, to upgrade only, but to try to repair or replace what went before and didn’t work. Their track record demonstrates a greater emphasis on establishing and perpetuating their monopoly than on providing true, reliable operation and service.

In the past, I witnessed many people excitedly looking forward to the next release as the cure to all the ills of the past. Then there were posts which looked at this behavior as something akin to the Jim Jones/Jonestown debacle or an AmWay convention.

Today, after XP has flopped bigger and louder than any of its predecessors, the paradigm has, indeed, shifted; IT, techs, power-users, and uber-users have run out of patience and time. They – and I – have had enough. The best anyone can actually convince many of us of is that Longhorn/Vista runs better some times and at some things, but nobody has claimed – let alone backed up that claim – that Vista is all that 3.11, 95, 98, 98SE, ME, NT, (followup NT’s) W2k, XP, SP1, SP2, or anything else they have shoved out the door.

That’s enough for most of us to realize the end is looming in the rear-view mirror. Now we’re expectantly looking to the Distros to give us what we have been promised from M$ for far too long.

I don’t really need to waste time testing Vista, after all, it’s M$ and M$ isn’t going to change – except to force WGA down our throats, and foolishly attempt to bolster a positive public opinion of their silly efforts by claiming “Piracy”. That’s the best they can do – try to convince the world that their stuff is worth stealing.

Well, the laughter has died down and former M$ users are shaking their heads as they move away from Redmond. Face it, Billy is going and so are others. Why? Because they know the future better than we do? If they’re leaving after trying the newer products, why shouldn’t we?

Sorry your feelings are hurt, but if M$ had their way, you’d be too busy phoning Mother$hip to prove you were legit, and you’d not have time to feel anything.

I always hug myself

In reply to Ok, give yourself the hug you offered me.

Who said MY feelings were hurt. I’m not the one with the strong feeelings on anything concerning MS (oh, I’m sorry, “M$”…yE$, I’m cLeVeR AgAiN) We could switch to Linux tomorrow, and my feelings wouldn’t be affected one bit. Actually, I might find it a little exciting.

If you hate it, don’t use it. If you have a job that uses MS products and it makes you that miserable, change it or change jobs/professions.
I got sick of what I was doing in life, so I changed fields. Granted, maybe thats why I don’t have the vehemence others do, because I’m new to this. But if anything ever gets to the point where I am so angry at something I can’t take it, I will move on.

I think the whole problem you have is that I lump all MS bashers into one catagory: Annoyingly repetitive
Even though I’m sure some of you are right, it still just gets really old.Being right or wrong isn’t my point. Grown men whining about software. I would love to see just one conversation on the Internet without any Kool-aid slinging
Just one

But you said your feelings were hurt…

In reply to Ok, give yourself the hug you offered me.

I’m beginning to understand you, … finally; if you get miffed, you move on before you get too miffed, right?
Hey, works for you.

I, too, have changed fields several times; mostly advancing up the ladder of development, i.e. started out in radio broadcasting, moved into lecturing and field work (with gigs in drama and music) for more direct contact and response from audience; from there I began getting into the political arena to try to change things; later I wrote and submitted legislation which helped clarify positions and define means and methods of adjudication and application; later I studied law and began a process of litigation, then further study and work on appellate briefs; then consultant for rather wealthy people who liked what I did; then learning programming so I could manage data; then ?-testing to develop better methods of DBMS; then programming/consulting; then full-stop because M$ DO$ 6.0 destroyed my clients’ work and data.

I see the major difference between you and those of us you you can’t tolerate is that you – admittedly – bail whenever things don’t suit you and we have hammered away because we had a goal and were hard-pressed to achieve it. We do complain, but we don’t whine; whiners are those who don’t try after the first problem, but stand around pouting and kicking their little feet in the dust, but don’t go back until they either make it work or they break themselves trying.

I must wholeheartedly agree about your complaint that our ba$hing is “Annoyingly repetitive”. It is because M$ faults are “Annoyingly repetitive”. If they’d fix what has never worked – and what many of us need for ourselves and our clients, we’d shut up and get back to work. It’s what we do and what we want to do.

“Being right or wrong isn’t my point.” You said it, not I. Being right *is* our point.

“I would love to see just one conversation on the Internet without any Kool-aid slinging
Just one “(sic) Wow! have you been missing some wonderful and funny and intelligent comments just on this post alone! As one of your “whiners”, I have truly enjoyed many of these threads, they’ve been instructive, entertaining, and pleasant – but that’s probably because I can take the complaining and the pleasant all in one lump.

Finally: “Even though I’m sure some of you are right, it still just gets really old.” We are right, and it really gets old for us, so we continue to complain until we find a solution – be that a “workaround” or a “fix”, but it’s gotta work – every time.

You understand us better than you think, you’re just unwilling or afraid to accept that when you are sure we’re right, you oughta join us and improve rather than fight us and lose – but, if your plan is to move on when you start to have strong feelings on this matter. We’ll surely miss you, but we’ll get on, probably complaing again tomorrow. What can I say? We can – and do – take it. Sorry if you can’t or won’t.

I’m just too sure that you’ll find this problem no matter how many fields you jump from, … to. Bon Chance.

Or because I used to work Medical

In reply to Ok, give yourself the hug you offered me.

Why should it be immediately implied that when I type M$ it is some form of detrimental saying against Microsoft and MS is a nice way to shorten Microsoft. Actually for many years MS meant Multiple Serricious and there was no Microsoft so when Microsoft came onto the scene instead of using the already in use MS we used the M$ so we could differentiate between the 2 on internal communications. It also allowed the techs to not be dragged in and repeatedly asked why a computer had Multiple Serricious and more importantly how did we intend to cure it?

That was when IBM came out with their PC running all Microsoft Product and it was a few years latter when they started to appear in the medical field as back then we where using Main Frames with Dumb Terminals and we didn’t have internal E-Mail so everything was put on paper and circulated around. Most times it didn’t go to where it was required so we used to get some Medical Person wanting to know just how their computers had Multiple Serricious.

It’s been from that time on that I’ve seen M$ used to describe Microsoft and MS to be shorthand for Multiple Serricious. You really need to understand what happened in the past before you make blind unknowing decissions about people and why they write in such a way and that therefore means that they are anti something just because of the shorthand used now.

Today even if you where to work medical and use the shorthand MS every member of the medical profession would see that as meaning Multiple Serricious not Microsoft and we have now had Microsoft around for about 20 years.

Sometimes things are not what you want to think thay mean but have evolved that way because of the work that has been done previously. :^0

Col

Thanks, HAL 9000, but….

In reply to Ok, give yourself the hug you offered me.

I ju$t can’t $eem to think of anything el$e to u$e concerning M$; I gue$$ it’$ the only thing they can think of and it’$ rubbed off on me.

$$$orry, y’all.

Ted I’ve just got back form he pre-release of Vista & Office Meeting

In reply to Ok, give yourself the hug you offered me.

The scary thing is that all the boys & girls from M$ are actually thinking that the product release of Vista & Office 2007 is going to be bigger than 95.

I genuinely think that they expect people to camp out in the streets waiting for stores to open so that they can get their very own copy of Vista.

Now for the good news according the the Boys & Girls from M$ they seem to think that about 30% of all M$ Software is pirate so they are enforcing WGA much stronger next year and are applying the same thing to Office [b]GSA[/b] Genuine Software Assurance if I remember correctly. Without this there will be no further Security Updates or Templates though to be fair they have a form of it currently running that allows you to download additional free software for office running now and it hasn’t as yet broken anywhere near as much as WGA has. I was told that WGA has only broken 1% of Genuine Windows Software so I must be the lucky one and got just about every one of those 1%. 😀

4 Others where complaining about the way that it stopped Genuine Software running as well but I was the lucky one with one Government Department with 2,500 XP computers that have needed Key Changes for SP1, SP2 and a month latter WGA. Their Office Application will be next and that will be another report of me selling Pirate Software again. 🙁

If only the idiots realised just how much harder it makes it to get replacement keys when they ring up complaining that they have been supplied Pirate Software because the monitor tells them so. I just hope that they adopt Vista as soon as it comes out then I can refuse to service them again. I really don’t need my staff hassled over the stupid actings of a Petty Bureaucrat who wouldn’t know night from day. And I don’t like being called a Liar when I point out that we had absolutely nothing at all to do with the supply of either the software or hardware some Bureaucrat bought it and was told that you could use XP Pro as a DC so that’s exactly how the network of 2,500 workstations was setup. 😀

It was a massive Peer to Peer network in loads of ten nodes of ten machines built up till eventually every desktop was connected and when it didn’t work their IT section handed off the mess to us. I’ll know better next time though and when they adopt Vista I can escape from them and their stupid ways. They almost make the release of Vista worthwhile and I’m actually looking forward to when they implement their new LAN as it’s now about time to be replaced they’ve had the system for close to 5 years now so it must be overdue for replacement. Perhaps I can drop in a MS paper that I got tonight telling them if they buy Vista Compatible Hardware they will qualify for a Free Upgrade to Vista & Office 2007 when they become available. That might even get then to upgrade now and then I can refuse to do anymore work for them. :^0

Col

Vista Doomed? We will have to wait and see

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Hello to all 🙂

I probably won’t get vista until I get a new machine, with it already loaded, but that is about a year and a half away as things stand now. I’ll have all the old XP things handy in case the new OS isn’t “up to the challenge of running smoothly and correctly”, not to mention being user friendly. While I can use a computer well, the majority of ppl out there turn it on, use the app or game they are familiar with, then turn off their computer. If one of those people have problems, and need to trouble shoot, it is likely they will get SO lost in what must be more complex settings, as if windows XP isn’t enough in that regard. I do agree about the “every other product is wonderful” and there are folks out there that still use win98se, as it’s speed and performance are close to that of XP. It seems bad to me that MicroSoft can’t seem to learn from it’s own history, and try to keep the best features of each OS in the next OS they release.

Sincerely,
Stephen

No – we are doomed, but it’s our fault

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

No. Vista will be a success because, despite the naysayers, there is no, absolutely no, competition. Linux is a duck. The Mac is…well, a given… And anything taking us forward will be the next best thing to perfection – regardless. There will be problems: we now come to expect it.

Incidentally, Windows 95 BAD??? Are you serious? The biggest selling product of all time? Oh, you mean “did it work”? Did that really matter? There just wasn’t an alternative. And still, there is no viable competitor to Windows Vista for the masses. I think MS knows this. Pity, but there it is.

Linux

In reply to No – we are doomed, but it’s our fault

Admitedly Linux has not got a nice GUI yet..I am still waiting for that. But from a purely server stand point, Linux blows Server 2003 out of the water, it is faster and can do more with the basic setup. I have several linux servers in the field and customers love them, they never need rebooting.

2 things

In reply to Linux

1.The “Linux GUI” is just fine(In fact, Vista reminds me a bit of SuSE 10)

2. ‘Linux never needs rebooting’ is tired.
I’m constantly having to restart services, which is not essentially the same thing, but close enough.
And your customers love them because they do not manage them.
I personally prefer Linux servers, other than for DCs

Biology 101

In reply to No – we are doomed, but it’s our fault

What do you mean… “Linux is a duck”? Tux is a penguin, not a duck.

Moving on, Linux is a great OS for the desktop.

I personally don’t think Vista is doomed and do see Linux as a workable option to XP or Vista.

No alternative to ’95?

In reply to No – we are doomed, but it’s our fault

You must be crazy. At the time IBM had OS/2 Warp and WarpConnect running, an it still has features Microsoft even don’t dream of, like – and not limited to almost 10 years later:
Any font in any window.
Different languages and keyboard in any window.
Switching to one window would give you f.inst russian keyboard, another would give you US keboard an so on.
Changes take place immediately – no reboots. Just like Linux.
Rename any file or folder, and your desktop and apps still runs.
No stupid flashligt searching and finding the wrong items.
Smaller and faster kernel with each upgrade.
New versions faster on existing HW.
Full preemptive multitasking at a time where ‘multitasking’ in Windows was a joke.
Full 32 bit, when Windows was 16 bit.
Full crash protection. When Windows – or any other app – crashed, the OS survived.

Windows set us back at least 10 years.

Vista will be a sales success because it will be present on any new PC from major OEM’s, not because people go out and buy it. We even have to pay for it, even if it is the first thing we strip off the new box.

Linux works

In reply to No – we are doomed, but it’s our fault

Sorry to hear you think Linux is a duck (actually it’s a pinguin). There are several desktop distros out there that hve really great GUIs (Linspire and Unbunto just to name two). The major problem with Linux is the perceived lack of software.

Vista doomed,

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

not because of the every other OS thing, it’s because of what it really represents.

It requires the consumer to seriously evaluate their entire stockpile of hardware and software that is still perfectly good. Simply buying the OS, will make it’s installation require faster processors and more memory at the least for a significant enough of consumers. The tactic is to scare you to buy more hardware that is “Vista Ready”, because what you have may work with it, but at reduced levels of performance, causing dis-satisfaction. And don’t get me started on “Vista Ready”, that implies it’s supported for all features, yet virtually all of them aren’t Vista ready.

And who wants to buy an OS, only to have to attempt to install the applications you already have and find out they don’t install for whatever reason ? There already is a product out there called Linux that can leave this level of frustration when straying from the path of a repository supported 3rd party software application, even drivers. The difference though, the hardware is more universally supported, and if it’s not completely supported, it’s free anyway, so you don’t feel you paid something for getting hoodwinked and nothing that is beneficial enough to have paid anything for.

Why would anyone want to buy something that makes a PC that is perfectly good and adequate, make it obsolete or at the very least need to undergo upgrades. Why would anyone want to buy an OS that after installing it, requires patch after patch to attempt to get expensive software applications to run on it. I just don’t see the percentage for the consumer in it ? I do see the percentages for the industry to charge more for newer versions or incurr additional costs to try to fix what they have for Vista ? In the end, the consumer bends over.

This new OS/Vista opens new doors/windows, for Linux that is !

Same Tune, Different Words…

In reply to Vista doomed,

I heard the same speech about valuse, hardware requirements, etc when XP first came out. People were saying, “Why upgrade to XP? 2000 does everything, and is smaller, faster, and has fewer hardware requirements!” Sound familiar?

It doesn’t take THAT beefy a box to run Vista. Look at my other osts, and you’ll see why I say that. The “reduced funtionality” you’re talking about it principally the Aero interface, which most users (especially business) would be able to live without. For the NEEDED part of the OS, the specs are not bad for today’s machines, and over the life cycle of the OS, they will become rudimentry, just as the specs for XP have become. Don’t be surprised if the next OS comes in 64 bit only and will want dual cores, and of course people will be up-in-arms about the “outrageous” hardware specs. IT just isn’t as big a deal as everyone makes it out to be.

I don’t see a large percentage changing harware for Vista either, but that’s because they won’t HAVE to. All thy may need to do is up the amount of RAM (similar to dozens of XP rollouts I have done) and go about their merry lives. Wen they DO replace the whole system, the Aero interface and all the otehr candy will be there waitinf for them, and they won’t have to lift a finger to incorporate it.

As far as the thrid party stuff goes, MS already goes above and beyond to support thousands of devices it doesnt HAVE to. They could force the harware manufacturers to come up with new drivers, and force the consumer to go to eah of these manufactuers to get them, but they don’t. Most of what you have will work, and there is the ability to create your own installation of Vista and include any drivers you need, so when you reinstall Vista, you will have them avaiable.

If Linux makes big in-roads from Vista, then I’m all for it. That’s the way the Free Market Enterprise should be. But I want to to be because they built the better mousetrap and not because people are sewing the stinky cheese of misinformation.

“the stinky cheese of misinformation”

In reply to Same Tune, Different Words…

Is NOT MIS-information, but information that you conveniently omitt about Microsoft’s obtrusive, monopolistic, abusive, intolerable EULA. Here is a link to a Comparison the GPL (free software agreement) to one of Microsoft’s EULAs for anyone interested: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:jIyh_0_YnHsJ:www.cyber.com.au/cyber/about/comparing_the_gpl_to_eula.pdf+Microsoft+EULA&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5
This is not to debate your information (I did not say your statements are untrue, just adding a little information that seems to be omitted as “stinky cheese of misinformation”.
Why not tell the whole story when spinning a tale?

Apples and Oranges

In reply to “the stinky cheese of misinformation”

You can’t compare the GPL to anyone’s EULA that is out to make a profit….
Do I smell…..uhhh, nevermind 😉

Vista Doomed…maybe.

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I think that once Vista hits the market and people see the restrictions that are built into this OS, they will start to look at Linux a lttle more closely. The only problem that I have run into with Linux were the people’s attitude when I first started messing around with Linux. No one wanted to help me solve problems. Most just told to go figure it out on my own because they had to do the same. FINALLY I got a couple guys to show me what I was doing wrong and it turned out to be a pretty nice OS, But that is just me.

Thats the biggest problem with Linux

In reply to Vista Doomed…maybe.

Is the majority attitude of the “l33t”
There are helpful Linux gurus out there, you just have to find them. Some things aren’t as hard as the leet make you think they are.
When asking for Windows related help, you’ll generally get a step by step explaination with very little ‘tude.

Old running joke

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

This has been an old running joke starting closer to the dawn of DOS itself. In case you remember DOS 2.x lasted about 3 days or so it seems. These jokes were ongoing back in the early eighties when I was in college.

– beads

Actually 2000 and XP are two different OS’s

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Windows 2000 Professional and Windows XP Professional are two distinct and separate Operating Systems.

Windows 2000 Professional released about the saome time as Windows ME.

Basically you have to look at the two Microsoft Operating paths: Home user and NT user once you get into Windows.

The NT path has always had better initial releases since that is where the Money if for Microsoft. From the Windows from Workgroup inital release to the upcoming Vista release.

I fell away from the Home Editions begining with Window 2000/ME release. The Professional version was much more robust and stable from the get-go.

The same was the case with the Windows XP Professional vs the Home Edition.

The same will probably be true with Vista. One reason why the NT editions are more stable is because they have a larger set of beta testers. Corporate users and developer typically clamour to be alpha and beta testors for these OS’s. I know from personal experience the private betas usually go through five or more versions before they are released for public beta. This is versus the Home Edition which goes through less than that number.

What is Good?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Depending on your level of use would determine how “GOOD” or “BAD” an OS is. For a power user, a ?GOOD? rating would be different from a home user. My evolution with these same variations is somewhat different from yours as is my experience and level of use.

Thank you for your information. It is always good to walk in another?s shoes!

You really messd up the list didn’t you.

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I won’t mention things I never saw released here in Australia, like Windows 1 and 2. But you left out.

DOS 6.2
Windows 3.11
Windows for Workgroups
Win NT 3.51
Win NT 4
Win NT for Workgroups
Win 98SE – seen as a seperate version not a service pack.
Windows 2003 for Servers

Also Windows 2K was totally different to Win XP, and came in server and Pro version

Vista Outcome ?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Now that you bring up the the matter as a IT Tech your Right I have used all of these systems and agree with you. lets see what the magic of windows can pull out their hat this time!
Wayne Perkins
wperkman@cox.net

alternative view

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Hello,
just looking at the most recent versions, I think throwing Windows 2000 and XP under one heading isn’t justified at all. So my count would go:
Windows 2000 GOOD (very!)
Windows XP BAD (but not too bad)
Vista ? a good chance, in that sequence

I agree about the older versions, more or less.
Thomas

Wrong Use of Statistics

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

You’ve fallen into the trap of selecting statistics to suit your argument, rather than deriving your argument from the statistics.

Had you started off from Windows 1.0, you’d have seen the versions just before your selected baseline of 3.0 were not merely bad, they were completely risible.

What about Windows CE?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Of course not a PC OS but is another version or not?
I agree with Windows ME it was really bad.

Windows for Pocket PC

In reply to What about Windows CE?

Windows CE through Windows Mobile 5.0 are Microsoft anwsers to Palm OS,

These too went through the Microsoft’s ‘Third Time is the Charn’ lifecycle

`Count seems in error

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Your experiences are similar to mine except that Windows 2000 and Windows XP are distinct versions,

Therefore the GOOD and BAD seems count seems to stop at 2000.

2000

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I’d have to say… Windows 2000 was so much better than Good.
correction for the list:
Windows ME: BAD
Windows 2000: GREAT
Windows XP: Ok/Good
Windows Vista: ?
——————–
and does anyone relize that Vista is using so much off of Apple. the gadget bar and the lay out maches so much with Apple.

And I haven’t yet realy downloaded Vista… but does anyone know how stable it would be? becuase Windows has a trend of loosing stablility throughout the OS’s

Clumping to make a point?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

You seem to be clumping very different OSs in order to make your point. How can you clump Windows VMS (oops I mean Windows NT) with Windows 98?

How can you clump Windows 2000 with Windows XP?

My take:

DOS 3.3: GOOD
DOS 4.2: BAD
DOS 5.0: GOOD
DOS 6.0: BAD
DOS 6.22: GOOD
Windows 3.0: BAD
Windows 3.1: GOOD
Windows 95: Fair
Windows NT: Bad
Windows 98: GOOD
Windows ME: Very Very BAD
Windows 2000: Very Good
Windows XP: Fair but tremendously bloated and slow
Windows Vista: I expect it will be so overburdened with “features” and so slow as to be unusable.

Microsoft should go back to Windows 2000 and
ad in the few parts of XP that make it slightly easier to use.

-Tom

Vista Doomed? Don’t think so… Linux? Please….

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Ok, first of all… the list of OS’s is incomplete and slightly whacked. Putting Windows 2000 and XP as one OS? Aren’t we forgetting some years in between? And what about Windows 3.11 (For Workgroups, remember?) or Win98 SE? Another thing: Windows 3.0, 3.1 and 3.11 weren’t any OS’s.

And all this talk about Vista being to hungry for hardware and too bloated…is exaggerated. First, not being able to program efficiently (compared to other OS’s in terms of how many lines of code were used for example) never stopped Microsoft from being successful. Only us Geeks look behind the curtain and see things like that. The average user and the average company? They don’t care. And remember when XP came out? Same discussions about it being too hungry for powerful hardware. Did it stop XP? No. And PC’s that you buy in stores now? They are more than capable of running Vista. AERO and the Ultimate Edition are not meant for the average, everyday users who just check emails and surf the web once a while and otherwise use their computer as a better typewriter. Ultimate is meant for those kind of users that WILL have the apporpiate system to run it on.

And in one year? All the machines on the shelf’s of Best Buy will be able to run Vista Ultimate. Why? Think of it: What is a graphics card with 128MB worth today? Or a gig of memory? How many Ghz ist the slowest CPU you can buy? And now think a year in advance. Do you really think anybody who wants Ultimate to run will have problems doing so?

I am sorry folks, but Vista will not give Linux a boost. The average person just wont get Linux. Unless some major Linux distributor makes a huge OEM bundle deal with DELL or some other big PC manufacturer, Linux will not replace Windows. And Apple’s MAC? Please… Apple wouldnt be alive today without Microsoft…

I can’t really recall a major industrial impact in the computer industry that has been achieved by pure quality of one particular product. But I can remember a lot that had an impact because of marketing and the power of the company (or companies) behind it, DESPITE the quality of a particular product.
Example: Apples IPod is technically inferior to a lot of MP3 Players around the world. It still is a huge success. Why? Marketing, Itunes, the whole bundle. It never is just about the technical specs of a product.

And to make a long story short. Vista is not a bad OS, it’s just not a perfect one. But firstly, the world doesnt need a perfect OS. And secondly… there is none. And as long as Microsoft will just produce good or well above average results and products, things won’t radically change.

OK!…..But?

In reply to Vista Doomed? Don’t think so… Linux? Please….

Even if every word you say is true (which it is not), you don’t even mention Microsoft’s abusive intolerable Naxi-like EULA which anyone who takes the time to read MUST be incensed about.
Another simple little fact omitted from your tirade is the fact that Vista will cost an arm and a leg while Linux is either free or practically free so costs nothing or practically nothing to try and verify if what you say about it is correct. On the other hand, the Apple you mention is at least cost competetive, if not less expensive. I suppose you believe all the reports of the capabilities of Linux and Apple are just liars or fools, eh? That would include all the reports of Vista’s hardware and power problems and lack of drivers ?
Lotta liars and fools out there?

And just what is a CPU according to the MS EULA?

In reply to OK!…..But?

That’s in itself an interesting question. XP Pro will consider a P4 with HTT as 2 CPU’s or a Dual Core as 2 CPU’s but as both of these are on 1 chip shouldn’t they be a single CPU?

Also XP Pro will not accept a Dual Core with HTT and use it to it’s capacity let alone 2 of those things on a M’Board as they are considered by MS as [b]Server[/b] products.

Currently both AMD & Intel have Dual Core with HTT available and freely available these are not some thing that only the [b]Super Rich[/b] can even afford to look at but common CPU types admittedly currently Top of the Range but they will not be holding that spot for very long so what happens when both Intel & AMD introduce their Quad Cores?

When AMD first introduced their 64 Bit CPU they handed out a copy of XP 64 then a few years latter MS handed me a production copy of XP 64 and while it did work slightly better than the AMD supplied one it was pitiful compared to it’s 32 bit little brother.

When Intel hits the streets with it’s new Quad Core CPU it will be a 128 Bit CPU and I’m betting that besides the fact that there will be no desktop MS product to run it everyone who buys one will be running 32 Bit applications on them.

Personally I haven’t seen any major advances in Software Technology from MS for a very long time the last was about the time that they stole the idea of USB from Apple and then proceeded to support it long before any USB devices where available in numbers. Now we are at the opposite end of things with better performing Hardware available but being held back with shoddy Software starting with the OS and working all the way up from there.

MS isn’t leading technology but holding it back as much as possible at the moment.

Col

Great Analysis!

In reply to And just what is a CPU according to the MS EULA?

Another nail in the coffin as software approaches it’s meltdown.

Not only that, but…

In reply to And just what is a CPU according to the MS EULA?

Each successive release does what the first releases of DOS did: blocks the use of something somebody else made work.

My most recent(?) beef? I bought a Dazzle capture system (external). It was made for use with 98, but I had ME. I could capture, but could not play OUT my edited work to a video recorder. Why? Because M$ had decided everybody was going to be forced to use their crappy movie maker.
I had to return the item to Dazzle, fortunately, they gave me my money back, but I was still left without any way to capture and edit and save video MY WAY.
My daughter bought a new machine with XP and, of course, it would not work with Dazzle, so she gave the unit to me. Now I’m using Pinnacle Studio 8 & 10, but, hey – I’m always looking for another external capture system and Pinnacle’s USB cannot keep audio and video in sync – it’s crap, don’t know whose fault, just doesn’t work; that’s known and acknowledged.
I try setting up the Dazzle system, but XP refuses to accept it; there are no drivers to offer me any workaround. NADA.

M$ is a terrorist organization, bent on their own unholy war on everyone, regardless of their race, creed, colour, origin, … whatever. They operate on greed, lies, bullyish behavior, “bought congresses and parliments” and will never bend. They do not care for quality or performance; if the users have no bread, let them eat cake. Instead of security and reliability, we are force-fed media players and glassy icons.

Wow! I’m impressed.

Unless you are being facecious, you are psychotic

In reply to Not only that, but…

“M$ is a terrorist organization, bent on their own unholy war on everyone, regardless of their race, creed, colour, origin, … whatever. They operate on greed, lies, bullyish behavior, “bought congresses and parliments” and will never bend.”

I hope for the sake of mankind there is a touch of exaggeration and sarcasm in there. If not, you may need help. Seriously.

Ain’t you glad that my office walls are padded?

In reply to Unless you are being facecious, you are psychotic

In the first place, I have never – in my thousands of years of life – exaggerated! Also people tend to dislike me when I try to be sarcastic, so I guess that?s not in my corner.

So it comes down to definitions:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/terrorism
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ?2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

OK, ?often for ideological or political reasons?, may not be the goal of the known acts culminating in charges and convictions against M$ and its controllers, so you may bail here if you deem it absolutely necessary.
Now let?s consider someone else with a known axe to grind:

http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter.php

So, he?s a businessman, and protocol and decorum mandate that he refrain from using the terms I have.

Incidently, I have been known to write Appellate Briefs (submitted in the 5th, 6th, and 9th Circuit Courts Of the United States – one step below the United States Supreme Court, …. as well as many smaller tribunals), and they have been accepted and considered without the kind of flaming you do so freely. One must be well-versed in Words And Phrases in order to have the proper cites incorporated into their arguments. One is also allowed to make spirited comparisons to describe the argument in other, perhaps more sinister terms to illustrate the effects of the case being argued.

So your statement, ?I hope for the sake of mankind there is a touch of exaggeration and sarcasm in there. If not, you may need help. Seriously.?; … ?for the sake of mankind???? Pot calling the kettle???

The problem is not that my or others? employing comparatives, such as ?unholy war? is a real threat to mankind? How about ?cake??

In the past, and present as well, I find that the most outrageous folk are those who, against all evidence, prefer to believe in something based on their own wishes and perceived good will. The less people know, the more vehemently they argue religion, politics, and M$; most of which have long histories of ?trains of abuse evincing ….? Gotta stop there or you might not like embracing ?despot?, and I know that comparison is far too clear for you to begin to argue against it.

Rest in peace, Bro?.

I stand corrected

In reply to Ain’t you glad that my office walls are padded?

That proved your sanity.
Now, about that gun BG has to our heads…

As Arthur Bach said in “Arthur II”…

In reply to Ain’t you glad that my office walls are padded?

Don’t anybody shout, “PULL”!

Three points:

In reply to Vista Doomed? Don’t think so… Linux? Please….

1. Why XP was “helpful”;
2. Apple without M$;
3. Perfect vs Reliable OS.

XP was necessary because newer, cheap computers available at Wool-Mart, Price Gouger, Bust Bye, Circuite Village, etc. were adding larger and larger HDD’s and requiring more RAM and limitations were reaching pandemic proportions. NTFS was what made XP the “choice” for the “average (read uninformed) buyer.
There is nothing compelling for Vista – other than it’s the next thing forced on everyone who buys ready-made.
Also, although IT may prefer W2K, it’s not available on the shelves at Stooples, or Burns and Nubile, or any of the above; also it’s fast becoming an orphan. Unless someone can find a way to “Support” these disinherited urchins, users are doomed until M$ is no longer considered as a viable option by the general (ignorant) public. Gotta have something/one who can fill the shelves with easy to use stuff so the masses can buy it, pull it out of the box, plug it in and use it without any kind of “learning curve”. My guess is that ain’t in the “lifetime” of XP or Vista.

2. Apple without M$;

Mac was out and running while DOS was still in its toddler stage. In fact, I was happily using C/PM as my (D)OS of exclusive choice. I had clients who used Trash DOS, Apple II, Compac, Sinclair, Adam, TI, and others, but nobody was in business owing to M$. They were, however, driven out of business by M$ brutal, monopolistic, thugish methods; that’s history. The best, DEC, was decimated; Osborn was eviscerated, yet those were the best machines going for under hundreds of thousands of USD. PC Jr. was never considered seriously because of its severe limitations; that’s also history. Commodore and Lisa were superior to M$-DO$, but fell from rankings because of the power of M$ to control and destroy competition.

3. Perfect vs Reliable OS.

While I agree that there will probably never be a perfect anything, but reliable is not impossible, and companies who disregard it are not worthy of being in business, but they will continue because they believe in force over quality. We should be adamant and demand quality and reliability and reject hype and promises never fulfilled.

What were OSs?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Odd that you combine 98 and NT as a OS and 2000 and XP as a OS when 98 and NT were completely different OSs. Which NT are you referring to: 3.5 or 4 or both? XP and 2003 are upgrades to 2000. And Windows 3.0 and 3.1 and 3.11 (which you never mentioned) were not OS but envoirnments that ran on the DOS you did rate.

Vista – XP in a candy coating?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

After stripping away the layers of Aero Glass eye-candy and changing the default settings so that I could actually wrestle back control of the OS – I was shocked…there it was – XP! Microsoft has merely coated XP with candy and prevented the average user from controlling or changing the OS. Vista kinda reminds me of a security feature that they “added” to Outlook Express 6. By default, the user couldn’t open email attachments..that sure solved the virus issue, right? “Sorry Grandma, you can’t open those pictures of little Johnny.”

As the Talking Heads say “Vista? Same as it ever was!”

98 ???

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I think calling 98 good is a bit of a stretch. I have yet to see a 98 system (even lightly used) that didn’t eventually self-destruct. OS’s are a commodity these days. Redmond has yet to figure this out.

The biggest single problem in Win 98 was the memory

In reply to 98 ???

not being properly cleared. I had many Win 98 machines, that worked perfectly for ages once a memory manager program like MemTurbo etc was loaded, and it was set to auto clear the memory when it got down to 10 MB of free RAM. The system very rarely crashed after that.

Your forgot Windows 211

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

When you look at it as black and white (good vs bad) then you do not get the full picture.

Dos 3.3 was good
Dos 4.1 was bod
Dos 5.0 was good
Dos 6.0 was OK
Dos 6.22 was improved on 6.0
Windows 1.0 was a joke (anyone else try it in production?)
Windows 2.0 was OK but many features were unstable
Windows 2.11 (first usable version of Windows was good for it day)
Windows 3.0 was OK
Windows 3.1 was Good
Windows 95 was an improvement over 3.1 but still was unstable
Windows NT was OK
Windows 98 first edition was OK but had stability
Windows 98 Second edition was best windows to date (Good)
Windows ME was a waist of time
Windows 2000 was OK, much stablier than previous version
Windows XP SP0 was OK but had stability problems
Windows XP SP1 was GOOD
Windows XP SP2 was also GOOD (I like the improved wireless support)
Windows Vista will probably be like Windows XP SP0 showing the promise of the new features but requiring a quick update (SP1) to fix stability issues.

So if you look it the details and fill in the blanks you see that there is not really a pattern just continue improvement and new features with a couple of steps back due to development delays.

Why is Windows 2000 and XP together?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I noticed you bundled 2 good oS’s together to get the result you were looking for. I think your logic is flawed and Spock would be ashamed!

Windows 2000, lot better than XP

In reply to Why is Windows 2000 and XP together?

I started with DOS/3.1. Migrated to DOS/3.11. Then jumped to NT4, Jumped to Windows 2000 Pro. Bypassed 95,98,ME. Windows 2000 Pro is far more stable than XP Home or Pro. I have XP Home on my Laptop, XP Pro on my second computer, which I do not use except when I am prepareing a topic for one of the computer clubs I teach, when most have XP. The computer I spend about 6 hours on every day is Windows 2K, again far more stable than XP, both platforms are the same.

Well I have run XP Pro on all 3 of my computers

In reply to Windows 2000, lot better than XP

All are stable and no BSOD’s. There have been times when I was beta testing SP1 or SP2 or some other beta programs there were problems. But never when running XP clean.
Mike

Props to 2K

In reply to Windows 2000, lot better than XP

I’m always amazed at the different comparative “user experiences” I read in these, as well as other, pages.

Having had a great deal of experience with both Windows 2000 AND Windows XP Pro, my own experience has been that when it comes to stability, XP is the hands-down winner. It’s also superior to 2k at handling such previously troublesome tasks as driver installs.
That having been said however, Windows 2000 gives the user a non-condescending, more “Professional” looking, graphical interface experience, while at the same time not approaching the user as a potential thief. (Anybody else insulted?)
Given my druthers, I’d love to see the stability of XP co-mingled with the seriousness of 2k. Now THAT would be an M$ OS worth spending my money on. (Provided of course, that they leave out both “Activation” and WGA.)

Given the history of Windows OS “Evolution” over the past decade or so, it seems obvious to me that we’ll all wind up using Vista (and its successors) eventually anyway, or risk being left behind.

You can get the same look as Win2K in Win XP if you want

In reply to Props to 2K

You just have to change a number of settings to the “Windows Classic” setting.

Many users base their OS experience on what they get out of their applications not the actual OS. What is interesting is that the majority of people who dislike MS Windows are the technical people who have to constantly fix systems that are broken by MS trying to fix the faulty software that they sold, or are older people used to the stability of DOS or DOS and Windows 3.11 and don’t like the deliberately designed instability of the current sheave of Windows products.

hahaha sitting here giggling

In reply to You can get the same look as Win2K in Win XP if you want

I am one of those people whom get to fix the mess that your talking about hehehe ! I run Linux as my main O/S and only run windows for stuff I can not run in Linux and thats
not much !
Like Xandros Desktop Deluxe version 3 and Code Weavers software added makes for a lot done in Linux and not much in Windows 2K Pro and no blue windows of death . . to look at and as soon as I can run it all in Xandros
WINDOWS is GONE ! !

Well I use 2 O/S’s

In reply to Props to 2K

I use Win 2 k Pro for stuff I can not yet do in
Linux ( got Xandros Desktop Deluxe version 3 ) and Code Weavers Program to get 99% of windows stuff running what ever is left over gets run in the Windows 2 K Pro . . Yeah your right if they had mixed XP and Windows 2K I might have got it, but XP and all its patches and fixes and patches for fixes and fixes for patches just to much stuff haha I would wait like 10 years before I got “Vista” ! ! Maybe they would have it fixed ?

Wait 10 years???

In reply to Well I use 2 O/S’s

jackie40d… in that time their grand tradition will be to have replaced it with at least 2 “New” versions, 12 SP’s, 21 broken promises that were dropped (You know the ones, better performance, better graphics, better – – – I’ve forgotten the list(s) of things promised with “LongHorn”).

Also in that time, about 27 months after “release” they will begin the rumors of ending “support” for those “releases” and then offer “extensions”, etc..

In my crystal ball, I finally see them “re” “leasing” their final version – guaranteed to work. It will open with something like a C with an = and, after a few seconds, “G…E…O…S” will appear on the screen…

Then all will be well.

More Cartridges, anyone???

The time different is hopeful. I just attended a class from Microsoft

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

i dont remember pre-windows 3.1 well but from 95 to 98 was 3 years 98 to ME was 2 years ME to XP 2 years and XP to Vista 5 well 6 years. hopefully they have taken there time and got it working. I just attend an intoduction to Vista from Microsoft yesterday. It has problems already but it was RC2 i saw not the final release and as with any piece of software wait until a service pack comes out before you start working with it. With all the extra “security” I believe it will be harder for us to do some of the things we are use to without just through a lot more bells and whistles but hopefully it won’t be as bad as we are all expecting.

The numbers game

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Just as in most anything else, we can make the numbers tell us anything we want to hear. Odd and even OS releases makes for fun reading but it only works out if you skip some releases and group others together to get the results you want. I have my doubts about Vista as well but I think these groupings don’t really tell the truth.

“The numbers game”…….”tell the truth”

In reply to The numbers game

Right! The game is all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$.
AND CONTROL!

Here is a (not ) complete list

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I did some research on DOS and Windows versions, and found that only one site came close to the full list, but I couldn’t find BOB even in that.
http://www.levenez.com/windows/

The sources I used are listed at the end, if anyone is interested in looking them up.
(Except M$s own site, which I didn’t bother listing as it is heavily edited, showing only the highlights of what M$ wants to show)

As extracts from Wikipedia say, it all stemmed from QDOS 0.1 (Quick and Dirty Operating System) developed at Seattle Computer Products by Tim Paterson as a variant of CP/M-80 from Digital Research.
Although there is a lot more to the story than that, I think it is a good enough place to start.

Wikipedia also notes many other DOS-like OSs including PC-DOS, MS-DOS, FreeDOS, DR-DOS, Novell-DOS, OpenDOS, PTS-DOS, ROM-DOS, Caldera DOS, IBM DOS among several others.

This list is not chronological, indeed several releases overlap others, see the above link for a fuller picture (pun intended). It is split into 3 main groups, Early DOS, MS-DOS and Windows. It is not complete, There is far too much to list here, indeed from Windows 2000 onwards there spawned hundreds of Windows off shoots, mainly for niche markets, and it doesn’t necessarily include Service Releases/Service Packs/Betas/Release Candidates, etc.

Early stuff first:
86-DOS 0.3
86-DOS 0.3
PC-DOS 1.0
PC-DOS 1.1
PC-DOS 2.0
PC-DOS 2.1
PC-DOS 3.0
PC-DOS 3.1
PC-DOS 3.2
PC-DOS 3.3
PC-DOS 4.0
PC-DOS 5.02
PC-DOS 6.0
PC-DOS 6.3
PC-DOS 7.0
PC-DOS 7.0r1
PC-DOS 2000

Now MS-DOS:
MS-DOS 1.1
MS-DOS 2.0 (Windows 1.0 is announced, then Windows 1.01 appears)
MS=DOS 2.1
MS-DOS 2.11
MS-DOS 3.0
MS-DOS 3.2
MS-DOS 3.25
MS-DOS 3.3
MS-DOS 3.31
MS-DOS 4.0
MS-DOS 4.01
MS-DOS 4.1
MS-DOS 5.0
MS-DOS 5.0a
MS-DOS 5.01
(Windows 3.1 appears)
MS-DOS 6.0
MS-DOS 6.2
MS-DOS 6.21
MS-DOS 6.22
MS-DOS 6.23
MS-DOS 6.25
MS-DOS 7.0 (Now part of Windows 95)
MS-DOS 7.1

Now Windows
Windows 1.0
Windows 1.01
Windows 1.03
Windows 2.0
Windows/386 2.0
Windows/286 2.1
Windows/386 2.1
Windows 2.03
Windows 3.0
Windows 3.0 (+Multimedia Extensions)
Windows 3.1
Windows 3.11
Windows for Workgroups 3.11
Windows 3.2 (Chinese)
Windows 95 (includes various Service Releases OSR1 and OSR2)
Windows NT
Windows NT 3.1
Windows NT 3.5
Windows NT 3.51
Windows NT 4.0
Windows NT Server 4.0, Enterprise Edition
Windows NT Server 4.0, Terminal Server Edition
Windows 98
Windows 98SE
Windows 2000 (from this point onwards it gets very messy, with hundereds of OSs being released – so I left a lot out)
Windows 2000 Professional
Windows 2000 Server
Windows 2000 Advanced Server
Windows 2000 Datacenter Server
Windows ME
Windows XP Home
Windows XP Professional
Windows XP 64-bit Edition
Windows XP Media Center Edition
Windows XP Tablet PC Edition
Windows 2003 Server Standard Edition
Windows 2003 Server Enterprise Edition
Windows 2003 Server Datacenter Edition
Windows 2003 Server Web Edition
Windows 2003: 64-Bit versions of above
Windows Vista (who knows how many they will finally end up with?)
Windows Fundamentals (for Legacy PCs aka WinFLP)
Windows WinPE (Preinstallation Environment)
Windows CE
Windows CE 3.0
Windows Mobile
Windows CE 5.0

It got a bit hairy at the end there, far too many Windows versions for me to select all, so I gave a sampling (or there would be over 100+ more in the list)

Sources used:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOS
http://www.historyexplorer.net/other_history_timelines/dos_history_timeline/

http://oldfiles.org.uk/powerload/timeline.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows
[b]A fuller timeline:[/b]
http://www.levenez.com/windows/

Not so sure this algorithm but Vista sure don’t worth monay

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

All is money. Observe the new prices for Vista and will understand why so many bells.
This new version of WINDOWS don’t bring too much new things and improvements but prices are 3x bigger. Why Microsoft ?
Are VISTA 3x better then let’s say XP ?
I think NO.
Few visual and security improuvements don’t make 3X the price of XP. (:((
So will see the market reply in 2007.
Regarding algorithm, there are two parallel line of products: WINDOWS 9X and the NT.
Maybe some changes are required.

you left one out

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

After “Windows 2000/XP: Good ” , you should have added “Windows XP SP2 : Bad ” !
If so , then that implies “Vista: Good ” . At least we hope !

I wasn’t down here TR, you seem to have a bug.

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

No way I posted down here, I hadn’t scrolled down this far for starters.

Sure you hadn’t gone down the Pub Tony

In reply to I wasn’t down here TR, you seem to have a bug.

and started messing about with the Tartan Army?

Who won btw?

hehe

;\ :p 😉 😀

The Rugby match or the fight ?

In reply to Sure you hadn’t gone down the Pub Tony

I believe we won the Rugby, but there was some dispute over the refereeing decisions. It’s possible that a few heavies before the game and wee dram at half time distracted us from the point of the outing.

Windows XP SP2 —Bad!

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

After the infecting of my machine with SP2 , my computer started to reboot itself at inopportune moments ; I’ve lost lots of data that way . The old XP NEVER did that !

And your point is?

In reply to Windows XP SP2 —Bad!

You should know that those issues could be related to a lot of things one of which could very well be a user issue. Misconfiguration could play into that as well.

You can’t just say, I loaded up the SP2 and the system blew up and is acting out of whack. That’s what an end user says and that is why we don’t allow them to do these “highly technical” things. We “as the professionals” do these things and provide them with a working system.

Are you a tech or a end user?
🙂

The Suite

i’m an end user but

In reply to And your point is?

but SP2 got loaded on my machine by a professional whom I had hired to install a new hard drive and more ram . What kind of configuration should I look into ? Could the problem be due to the ram ?

Well the obvious thing is RAM

In reply to i’m an end user but

But without knowing much more it’s really hard to even guess at a fix to the problem.

What I would suggest is to grab a Live Linux drop it into the Optical Drive and boot off that. It will not hurt your current Windows Installation and if the system works correctly you know that you have a Software Problem. If it falls over continuously you obviously have a Hardware Problem that needs fixing.

Any Live Linux will do you can most likely get one from your local Newsagent as a Cover Disc on a Linux Mag or maybe even a general Computer Mag to test things out with. If you wish you can download or buy one from here

http://tinyurl.com/23nmq

Then to test your hardware there is the Ultimate Boot CD available from here

http://tinyurl.com/3jnpy

It would be a good starting point to try to see if the system works without Windows and then if it fails you can perform some more intense diagnostic tests from the Ultimate Boot CD. I would first be looking at testing your RAM and then maybe the CPU.

If you can not get it to work correctly on either a Live Linux or the Ultimate Boot CD I would try swapping the Power Supply with a Known Good one and try again. Generally speaking you can have a power supply that is being over driven by the number of devices that you have attached or if some new RAM has been fitted the most likely thing is that you have incompatible RAM which is causing Timing Issues. I always try to have both the same make & type fitted in every computer that I make and I only use the better Brand Name RAM like Corsair or Kingston as they just work better and I don’t have customers complaining that their computers are no longer working properly.

Col

Hey Col, you better come down and help me test my RAM

In reply to Well the obvious thing is RAM

the bugger is too fast and the paddock too big. Can’t even get a name, but he looks like a Merino to me. :p

Sorry, mate, but I live on a farm (rented house) and the farmer just moved a few rams into the paddock beside the house.

edited to fix typo in title

[b]Not a Problem Ernest[/b]

In reply to Hey Col, you better come down and help me test my RAM

I’ll send down a Kiwi Friend who I observed to get my Ph.D in the Erogenous Zones of Sheep. :^0

But after he is finished with your sheep I don’t know if the Ram’s will be any good to you. :p

Col

Hey, no problemo, we could always roast them together

In reply to [b]Not a Problem Ernest[/b]

on a spit roast – get roast pork and roast long pig at the same time. There’s a lot of ex pat NZ Maori people living around Wagga, they’ll pay well for some nice long pig. :p

Could make a profit, then, especially as the sheep belong to the farmer, not me. :p

Does that come from the old joke

In reply to [b]Not a Problem Ernest[/b]

[i]”New Zealand, a land where men are [u]men[/u],
….. and sheep get nervous”[/i]

Although the previous time I heard that joke, it was a Kiwi saying it about the Aussies!!!

*** wink ***

(ok ok, so we have sheep farming here in Scotland too….LOL)

😀 😀 😀

Actually it all comes from an Honorary Ph.D that I was awarded. :D

In reply to [b]Not a Problem Ernest[/b]

Apparently some [b]Mad Pammie[/b] awarded me an Honorary Ph.D on the Erogenous Zones of Sheep. To which I thanked everyone and told them that this study would not have been possible if all of the Kiwi fiends that I knew had not of allowed me to observe them in action. 🙂

As for as the story about where Men are men and sheep are terrified that very well may have been told to you by a Kiwi but by the same token it was the Kiwi’s who stole all the sheep that they now have in New Zealand from Australia. So as well as being into less than savoury sexual practises they are also Sheep Thieves so you can never trust anything that a Kiwi tells you as while they have your attention on one side his mate is robbing you blind on the other side. :^0

I’m told that they perfected this action with the Scots as they thought if they could get away with it there they could do it anywhere. 😀

Of course the Scots eventually woke up to what the Kiwis had done but where too ashamed to admit that they had being taken down buy a bunch of uneducated colonials so they to this day remain stum on the entire episode as the shame still lingers. :p

Col ]:)

Definately check the RAM

In reply to Well the obvious thing is RAM

and while you are at it, you might want to castrate the supposed professional that did the upgrade. If you only added RAM and SP2 then your problem is related to one of them, and I’m betting it ain’t the SP.

RAM

In reply to i’m an end user but

If the new memory is incompatible with your system it could cause just the problems your describing.

If all the guy did was add memory and you can identify it the easiest thing to do would be remove the new memory and see if that makes a difference.

I had one machine that ran fine until it was upgraded to XP2, then it started locking up and crashing without warning. Reflashing the BIOS fixed it.

Jeff DeWitt

Amazing Stuff

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

First…..Vista blows whale genetalia.
why the hell would anyone want to have to keep giving programs permission to run every time you start them? If I didn’t want the program to run, I wouldn’t have selected it :-S

Second, there seem to be alot of folks posting here with great educational backgrounds, who still cant spell, or type things in any sort of grammatically correct way.

Amazing Stuff Redux

In reply to Amazing Stuff

AMEN Friend, Preach on!!!

Yeah, but when I type slowly, and use correct grammar…

In reply to Amazing Stuff

People tell me it was a great write, but what did I say!

theres another pattern

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

good observations, but didn’t you ever hear the saying “never trust a dos that ends in .0” Odd or even, Msoft always had to relase the fixes that allowed each version of dos (and windows) to be “the one” for awhile. Me thinks you give Msoft to much credit for the good “odds.”

All software needs three versions

In reply to theres another pattern

Good/Bad doesn’t work, but grouping major releases properly does show that the third (or later) major release is always the best:
– Dos – 3.. 5.. 6 was the best
– Windows 2.0.. 3.0.. 3.1 was the best
– Windows 95.. 98.. 98SE was the best (and let’s just forget ME ever happened)
– Windows NT.. 2000.. XP was the best.

But who is to say history will repeat? I reckon MS has learned a bit over the years and they have plenty of resource behind this one. I’m picking Vista will break the pattern.

All software needs three versions

In reply to theres another pattern

Good/Bad doesn’t work, but grouping major releases properly does show that the third (or later) major release is always the best:
– Dos – 3.. 5.. 6 was the best
– Windows 2.0.. 3.0.. 3.1 was the best
– Windows 95.. 98.. 98SE was the best (and let’s just forget ME ever happened)
– Windows NT.. 2000.. XP was the best.

But who is to say history will repeat> I reckon MS has learned a bit over the years and they have plenty of resource behind this one. I’m picking Vista will break the pattern.

You only get that count by being selective in what you drop

In reply to All software needs three versions

as you’re leaving out the various sub versions like DOS 6.2 being the best – according to some. But what happened to

DOS 1 and 2 – and the various x.x sub versions

Win 1 and 2, and 3.11 was the best not 3.1 – oh and Windows 3.11 for Workgroups too.

Win95A, Win95B, Win95C, Win95D, Win98A, and Win98B

Win NT 2, 3, 3.51, 4. BTW Win2K started life as Win NT5 but took too long to get to market so they changed the name.

And Win XP SP2 with WGA is worse than anything that has gone before as it regularly trashes the system and requires a full format to get working again – unless you have broadband and leave it on auto updates all the time.

I’m selectively dropping marketing upgrades…

In reply to You only get that count by being selective in what you drop

Sub versions and other minor releases are really nothing more than a series of service packs and (worse) cynical maketing attempts to re-package ythe existing with a few extra bells and whistles to sell some upgrades and reinvigorate the channel. Every software producer does the same. After all, they have to make money otherwise they wouldn’t be able to keep making software…

Yes I’m generalising, but the general pattern is undeniable – the question is this: will history repeat?

The future of the place of the monolithic OS in a wired world might be another interesting debate.

I have to agree with Earnest here

In reply to All software needs three versions

You are picking & Choosing what to use to build your argument so it’s shot to pieces before you even clicked on Submit Post.

If anything Vista has shown that M$ has learnt nothing from the past and instead of taking [b]Little Steps[/b] refining an existing product so it works better they embarked on a massive undertaking which they have consistently failed to meet the projected release dates for and in an attempt to get it to market have dumped several key components of the core of the OS.

M$ is now way too big for their own good and their success will be their undoing as they are now unable to be what they once where [b]Lean & Mean[/b] able to drop a project at a moments notice to proceed along a different path to get a better product to market, now they chose what they will try to do and just continue on attempting to make it work and cutting essential bits out to cut back coding time to work out the coding bugs that are created by having so many different sections developing bits of code independently to each other.

M$ currently reminds me of a very old SiFi movie that I saw many years ago where the entire society was controlled by a Computer System that provided everything necessary and the people who where employed to keep the system working had developed into specialist in one area only and could make changes as required but never understood that the change that they make to this section adversely impacts on another section. The problem was that everyone had become so specialised that no one now understood how the entire system worked. Vista is M$ latest development of the problems that they have been having for close to a decade now. Things like Service Packs on XP causing the Product Key to be unrecognised and therefore being treated as Pirate and things like WGA breaking their own Action Pack products let alone the number of people with real M$ Product who are constantly adversely affected by the inability of WGA to work properly. My first major problem with anything M$ was a Patch for 98SE which caused the entire system to fall over and while Windows would run it could no longer see an Optical Drives, Floppy Drives, SCSI Drives or Devices and No LAN that sought of messed things up completely.

Sorry but if anything I can see M$ being undone by their on success as they are now [b]Fat & Incapable of Changing Direction[/b] just like everyone else before them who has become a bit player or dropped out of the market entirely.

Currently some of the Office 2007 Packages are not Vista Compliant and they should be very close to RTM now so I really can not see M$ actually gaining anything from Vista if anything I can see it doing much more harm than good to them as there are already many customers unhappy with M$ actions who are actively looking for something different to use. I think the release of Vista will accelerate this process not regain M$ Customers Loyalty.

Col

Again, you have said it better ‘n anybody…

In reply to I have to agree with Earnest here

I’m noticing a lot of talk of moving away from M$ in other areas too. Not just wavering on the, “Well, if it doesn’t do (fill in here) .or. if I can’t get it to stop .or. if it’s as bad .or. if it’s not better than …” before adding, “I’m going to look for some change.”

As for me, I did break down and buy (very cheaply $20 USD) two iMacs – G-3’s; one OS X; the other OS 9.2.2. They’re fun to play with, but I wouldn’t switch; just tried to figure out ways to stop the slingshot effect(s) of the mouse. OS X has a vast improvement over earlier versions, but I had to go to “Handicapped” areas to find and use them. Have also set them up at work on the newer models, but still not like the accuracy of the PC mouse, and a lot more tension and fatigue of the hand/wrist/arm.

What I think it’s gonna take is a true Piracy of the best that M$ might have produced – had they really tried – all bundled together and serviced by Open Techies who can help all to use the Bundle to their individual advantages.

What I think might happen instead is that the current “shift” to linux by everyone – now including M$ – could begin an eruption of lawsuits that make todays FUD look like childs’play, and then someone will come up with the promise made a long time ago: Non-Legacy computing based on nothing currently under litigation – followed by another decade or two of novitiates, just like the good old daze when the PC Junior flopped, but left a dazzled public in desire of something they could use.

… Could happen, … and should happen.

Vista not guilty until proven so

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I think we should wait and see how Vista plays out its game.

So it seems that we won’t have to wait too long to figure out if Vista will turn out to be a Star or a Dog as a product.

I put my bets on the Star side, but then again, it is too early to make any predictions.

Best regards, GEN

You’re Also Not Innocent

In reply to Vista not guilty until proven so

of piracy or theft until you prove to Microsoft you are (using their tools and methods, of course), if you’re using XP or Vista.

But it gets better

In reply to You’re Also Not Innocent

I have one Government Department that I do some work for who started out with a Volume License of XP Pro which was supplied by their IT section and installed on all the new hardware that was fitted at the same time.

Being Bureaucrats they couldn’t get the system to work as they had, had a Bureaucrat do the purchasing and effectively had several hundred work-groups connected together to that they eventually had all 2,500 computer connected to a LAN of some nonworking description. When it wouldn’t work they farmed out the work and somehow I got stuck with it [b]BIG MISTAKE THERE![/b] since the original fix where we went in and installed Y2K servers and setup a Domain on their hardware with the Y2K being supplied directly to the Government Agency by MS we’ve had some minor problems. Like every time a Service Pack becomes available they get a message that they do not have Genuine MS Software. This is because MS locks up that product key and then we have to get a new one change the Product Keys on all the computers well the XP ones at least and then allow the System Admin to do their job. Apparently the Government IT section no longer accepts calls from this office and they are instructed to contact us directly.

Also being a Government Department they move their staff around quite often so much so that every time that this problem has arisen the current System Admin doesn’t know what’s happening rings me up accusing me of selling pirate software and abuses me for what they have bought. That in itself wouldn’t be quite so bad but they then ring up the MS Anti Piracy Hotline and make a complaint about my company as well and we had absolutely nothing at all to do with the supply of anything but we are to blame.

So far we have had to change the Product Key for SP1, SP2 & WGA and with 3 complaints about a major amount of Supposedly Pirate Software to MS this doesn’t help get replacement Product Keys.

Personally I’m sick & tired of attempting to deal with MS on this particular installation, I’m feed up with the constant quips about stealing from both the Government and MS by both parties and what’s far worse I don’t get paid anywhere near enough to put up with this rubbish. It’s not only me but every one of my staff cops exactly the same thing from the foolish Bureaucrat and when we show the original purchase order as we’ve had to get a copy of this and now I have every staff member carry a copy on them we are then told that it’s wrong and we are lier’s.

MS Legal I can handle quite easily but the [b]Petty Foolish Bureaucrats[/b] are a totally different story. I just wish I could kill one to shut them all up permanently. 😀

Col

Software Prophecy

In reply to But it gets better

You’rs is just one more testament to a software meltdown (better known as “revolution”). This is what happens when a government, or product, becomes impossibly overbearing and controlling.
Check your “watch” this time next year and look at the results.

Yeah, right; smash a mosquitoe on a windshield…

In reply to But it gets better

and you’ll wipe out the scourge of malaria worldwide.
M$?Bureaucrats=B$(quared).

I say, pull all reason and reliable support from Bureaucrats and Gov’t will collapse in on itself. Don’t help them! Let them die because they s**t where they eat and visa-versa.

DO$ 4 wiped out the IRS for a while; that’s why IT avoided it. Let M$ and Gov’t duke it out alone, should be an interesting blood-bath, and – hey, maybe Gov’t will finally take M$ out of the game. We sure can’t.

Yeah…….But?

In reply to But it gets better

Might not be a bad idea to offer encouragement to the front-line troops, huh? Even if they’re in a losing battle, they deserve a little support.

Complete List of Windows Versions

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Well, if we’re going to do this, at least let’s get the list correct.

This does not include MS-DOS, although there were a couple of DOS releases that had a Windows-like shell. It also ignores all the embedded, phone, PDA, and automotive versions)

Microsoft Bob? Can we consider that a “released” version of Windows?

Windows 1.0 1985 Graphical Operating Environment
Windows 2.0 1987 Overlapping windows
Windows/286 1988 80286 protected mode
Windows/386 1988 80386 multiple virtual DOS systems
Windows 3.0 1990
Windows 3.1 1992
Windows NT 3.1
Windows for Workgroups 3.11 1993
Windows NT 3.50 Workstation
Windows NT 3.50 Server
Windows 95
Windows NT 3.51 Workstation
Windows NT 3.51 Server
Windows 95 OSR2
Windows 95 OSR2.1
Windows 95 OSR2.5
Windows 98
Windows 98 SE (Second Edition)
Windows Me (Millenium Edition)
Windows NT 4.0 Workstation
Windows NT 4.0 Server
Windows NT 4.0 Terminal Server Edition
Windows NT 4.0 Enterprise Server
Windows 2000 Professional
Windows 2000 Server
Windows 2000 Advanced Server
Windows 2000 Datacenter Server
Windows XP Home Edition
Windows XP Professional
Windows XP 64-Bit Edition
Windows XP Tablet PC Edition
Windows XP Tablet PC Edition 2005
Windows XP Media Center Edition
Windows XP Media Center Edition 2004
Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005
Windows Server 2003 Standard Edition
Windows Server 2003 Enterprise Edition
Windows Server 2003 64-Bit Enterprise Edition
Windows Server 2003 Datacenter Edition
Windows Server 2003 Web Edition
Windows Small Business Server 2003 Standard Edition
Windows Small Business Server 2003 Premium Edition
Windows Server 2003 R2 Standard Edition
Windows Server 2003 R2 Enterprise Edition
Windows Server 2003 R2 64-Bit Enterprise Edition
Windows Server 2003 R2 Datacenter Edition
Windows Server 2003 R2 Web Edition
Windows Small Business Server 2003 R2 Standard Edition
Windows Small Business Server 2003 R2 Premium Edition

A few More

In reply to Complete List of Windows Versions

Windows for Workgroups Version 3.0 was bad
Windows for Workgroups 3.11 good
Small business server was released on NT 3.1 and NT 4.0 as well as NT 4.5 .

But, The original post is about Desktop not Server operating systems. None of the above truely apply.
The list can be shortened, by considering base versions – extensions as options. Thus XP, XP-SP1, while not Tablet, Mutimedia, etc. They being extensions.
My reasoning that many Microsoft products were made useable in the revision – not the original release. ( WFW-3.0 vs WFW-3.11, W98 vs W98-SP2, SBS-4.0 vs SBS-4.5, etc )

Wrong title

In reply to Complete List of Windows Versions

to your post
[b]”Complete List of Windows Versions”[/b]

It is a good coverage, but not a complete list.

Indeed I noted in my post above entitled
[b]”Here is a (not) complete list”[/b]
that many of the sources I used were in themselves incomplete. I point out that the list I gave was itself not complete.

It is a very tricky project to produce a complete list, but the one I found that came closest to that was:

http://www.levenez.com/windows/

Check it out sometime.

It has a nice perspective in that it tries to show graphically, the parallel development lines.

Microsoft Bob? Can we consider that a “released” version of Windows?

In reply to Complete List of Windows Versions

If not released, then certainly escaped, hunted down and shot.

Bleeding heck, 26 variants since the year 2000

In reply to Complete List of Windows Versions

That’s not counting the service packs and security upgrades. Yet some MS supporters have the audacity to bitch about a single Linux variant, or Mac, which issues an updated system every 6 months (which most do) – you can’t really class Red Hat as the same OS as SuSE even if they’re based on the same thing. And all the Linux variants I’ve seen can easily do everything that all those Windows variants do.

Goodbadgoodbadgoodbadgoodbad………

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

From what I see here, I don’t think your premise is valid. Everyone has a different chronology of releases.Then which were good and which were bad? Pure opinion. Besides, hey, they may get 2 in a row right.

I’d have a hard time making a business case for Vista. I can hear the controllers now:
‘We have to go through that upgrading again?’
‘You technogeeks just want another new toy’
‘How much? That’s just the software?’
‘Business is good, computers/network are finally stable, everybody is trained, get out of my office or I will kill you.’

AMEN!!! Jerry

In reply to Goodbadgoodbadgoodbadgoodbad………

That sounds EXACTLY like what I am going to say to the first person who tells me I need Vista

Users exist to test OS’s!

In reply to AMEN!!! Jerry

All those unfortunate non-computer types who couldn’t give a rat’s butt about Vista and have just managed get comfy with Win2K or XP are now going to have to learn new Office releases, etc etc.
The net will be down 1/2 the time and their now too small PCs will hang, reboot or just drag along because they only have 1 gig of RAM. Meanwhile no work gets done.
But the icons fade in and out and the new screen savers are incredible! Not to mention virtualization and multi-tasking.

Multi-Tasking or Compound Failures???

In reply to Users exist to test OS’s!

When I can’t keep one program running correctly in XP, who cares about multi-tasking?

Which program is that?

In reply to Multi-Tasking or Compound Failures???

I run several programs on XP.Maybe we can help you with your problems. There are alot of techs here.

I’ve fixed ALL my XP and Windows problems

In reply to Which program is that?

I moved to SimplyMEPIS Linux. All the problems now long gone.

Thats called a workaround

In reply to I’ve fixed ALL my XP and Windows problems

Not a fix, and not tech like. Techs try to solve problems, not trade one for another

edited for typo

A fix is what you do to get the client and system working properly

In reply to I’ve fixed ALL my XP and Windows problems

If there’s a critical fault in the hardware or software, you replace and get the client working again. That’s what I did, got rid of the faulty software MS Windows.

Then maybe you are in the wrong business

In reply to I’ve fixed ALL my XP and Windows problems

You(You meaning some company’s IT guy) can’t just dictate to a COMPANY that you WORK FOR to get rid of all things MS and start over. Not a real company. Maybe a company of 2 or 3. Its just not that simple. Too many factors involved.
As a tech, you are expected to get things working regardless.
Someone was having trouble with a Word doc today. I could’ve uninstalled Office 2003 and installed OO instead as a ‘fix’, but I have bills to pay and mouths to feed.
So sorry, still a workaround, not a fix

As an IT professional, it’s my job to give management and clients

In reply to I’ve fixed ALL my XP and Windows problems

the best advice about how to most effectively get their work done, that means stating what is the best hardware and software to do the job, not the most profitable for me, or the best advertised. If they ignore my advice, and have the authority to say do it another way, then I can either walk away from that job, or , more commonly, do as they want – the guy paying the bill gets to call the shots in the end. I have walked away from jobs, rather than do work that, in my estimation, was totally unprofessional – as I didn’t want to be associated with the failure when it occurred – eg demands to install pirate software and the like. In the past I’ve installed garbage like Win ME, because the client paid me to, after I advised they get XP Pro, since they wanted to stay with Windows – too stuck in their mind to learn something new, and admitted it.

On your statement re replacing WGA infected XP with Linux as being a work around, then that’s what MS has been doing for a decade. They released faulty versions of Windows, release work around patches that don’t always work. And eventually release another faulty version of Window, as they’ve given up trying to fix the previous version.

Spending a lot if time and effort to fix something that has an inherent fault is not fixing it, its tinkering, replacing it with something that does the required job is fixing the problem of ‘I can’t get my work done because this rubbish doesn’t work right.’

Hope I’m on the bottom of this stack…

In reply to I’ve fixed ALL my XP and Windows problems

This exchange between you and DT is only proving one thing to me … :
“A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet” (Balcony scene; Romeo And Juliet; stolen from William Shakespear and published – an obvious breach of DRM)

A Dumb Terminal is one which only performs tasks assigned it from the Master Control Processor. It can only do as it is instructed, it is not capable of doing much other than it is told, and without its “Smart/Controlling Terminal is totally useless – can’t even play games with it”. It is designed to only serve the Master and – apart from performing certain limited functions – is wholly dependent on “thinking” from another source.

Workaround vs make it work? If my – or a client’s machine is not doing what it should; if I must gather as much data as I can to save and conclude that the entire machine is so near death the maggots are in parade formation; and if I buy another new machine for myself or my client – That’s a workaround, but not a Tech solution?.

I guess I know who’s banging his head against the wall next to my padded cell. Gee, Beav, now that I don’t bang my head against the padding, maybe the good doctor – or the pretty young nurse – oughta bring him in here and give me his old cell. But, Wally, I sure hope they clean off the blood and hair from his walls first. Me too, Beav,

Work around or fix, depends upon how you view the task

In reply to I’ve fixed ALL my XP and Windows problems

If I have a broken down, rusted out old pick up truck, and have a delivery to make, I can:

a. Rebuild the motor, cut out and weld in new body work, and paint the truck, making other repairs as needed. or

b. Dump the bomb, and buy a new one.

If the job is to fix the bomb, then a is the answer and the fix, while b is a work around. If the job is to get the boxes delivered quickly, then b is the fix.

Well, Windows is a broken down rust bucket of an operating system, loaded with garbage. so you can either spend all your time and resources getting it to limp along, as you see making the rubbish work as the problem. Or you can see the problem as being, I need to be able to do my work, and get a new working system, like SimplyMEPIS.

Unlike some, I don’t try to make the horse limp along on two broken legs, I shot the poor thing.

Now I get it (note to Earnest)

In reply to Which program is that?

Teddy got bent over me (very inexperienced) offering to help him (very expeienced)get his software running on XP. I’m sure he was being faceciously sarcastic in his original vague post,(‘When I can’t keep one program running correctly in XP, who cares about multi-tasking?’) and so was I in my response.
So now he feels he has to take little jabs at me and my screen name, which is fine. In fact, he did it at least twice in case someone missed it.
He mentioned wanting to drop the Media from his name earlier. may I suggest replacing it with Retar.

Earnest (and others)
You have a valid point about the workaround vs fix. But as you say, I cannot “walk away” from my employers when they ask me to get something to work. Changing to another OS is simply not an option. I guarantee I am not alone in this. I’ve already mentioned using Apache for our external web server(they have IIS- which I don’t care for), and pretty much got shot down before the words came out of my mouth. I’m also the new guy, so I probably should just stay out of those type desicions for now.
Like I said in a previous post. That may work for an independent or a small company, but in larger companies, the techs just don’t have that kind of pull to retool the infrastructure because they have animosity towards MS

EDIT: DE
Also, in your workaround theory about the truck, you are being a bit contradictary. Earlier I suggested buying new machines to get around having old hardware with unavailible drivers, and you poo-pooed the idea as not being feasible.

Arrgh, please read my name and spell it right Ernest, no ‘a’

In reply to Now I get it (note to Earnest)

I’m not an adverb. :p

Now that I’m over that, re the content.

As an IT professional it’s my job to recommend what is best to get the job done properly. If that is to replace the software, then I should recommend that. However, as I said before, if they still insist on trying yo make the garbage work, then, as an IT professional, you get in and do your best to make the garbage work – or quit, if it’s too much.

Re the example of the truck, I was pointing out the difference in attitude / perspective. In one case you’re treating the symptom, in the other you’re providing a solution to the problem. Symptom – car broke; problem – need vehicle to deliver these. Taking this back to the computer with XP troubles.

If the problem is MAKE XP work, then you fight with the system and its settings.

If the problem is I want to be able to do my work, type my documents, browse the net. You can either fight with XP, and get it to limp along. Or you can solve the underlying problem and replace it with an OS that works properly.

I had no problems with XP until WGA, worked OK for years. Suddenly, with WGA I had a smegging load of problems. My problem was ‘I need the system to just work.’ So instead of making XP work, and then do the same again 6 weeks later, and 6 week later, and … (get the picture. I went about solving the problem, not the symptom (which was XP giving trouble due to WGA) – I put SimplyMEPIS on and have had not trouble for months – I fixed the problem.

Nah, not software, hardware…

In reply to Now I get it (note to Earnest)

I got a capture card. I want it to work. The software is gone, bye-bye. There is no software to get running.

Also, I don’t have an “original vague post”, they’re all part of ongoing vagueness.

As far as taking jabs at screen names, I like your suggestion, but, now nearing 60, I propose “re-tire-ted”. It should suit me better. Also, it’s my name and I can do whatever I want, as long as Yahoo hasn’t deliberately given it to someone else just to spite me – probably have, just my luck.

Also, as I read it, the rusty truck was proper. Down under it’s harder and costlier to get new trucks, so they can’t replace them with latest models, but earlier ones which are not rusted and hanging over their axles. Besides the rusty part was the bad OS, not the computer body in his earlier posts and that’s still valid. You may have occaision to visit St. Joseph, Missouri – home of the Pony Express – someday. If you do, stop by PCA (Professional Computer Associates) and ask to see their unit with the bullet holes and powder burns on it. Great conversation piece – sorry, it’s not for sale.

To others vetting his reply: at the time of this writing, there were two (2) jabs at the name. That’s just in case more appear later – not from me, of course. He delivered the final volley, plus my point(s) are established so I must move on to other humor. (Don’t miss the Baby Bobs – just above the “Demented” reply, but make sure your Attends are snug. I lost it, and I wrote it!

Nah, not software, hardware…

In reply to Now I get it (note to Earnest)

I got a capture card. I want it to work. The software is gone, bye-bye. There is no software to get running.

Also, I don’t have an “original vague post”, they’re all part of ongoing vagueness.

As far as taking jabs at screen names, I like your suggestion, but, now nearing 60, I propose “re-tire-ted”. It should suit me better. Also, it’s my name and I can do whatever I want, as long as Yahoo hasn’t deliberately given it to someone else just to spite me – probably have, just my luck.

Also, as I read it, the rusty truck was proper. Down under it’s harder and costlier to get new trucks, so they can’t replace them with latest models, but earlier ones which are not rusted and hanging over their axles. Besides the rusty part was the bad OS, not the computer body in his earlier posts and that’s still valid. You may have occaision to visit St. Joseph, Missouri – home of the Pony Express – someday. If you do, stop by PCA (Professional Computer Associates) and ask to see their unit with the bullet holes and powder burns on it. Great conversation piece – sorry, it’s not for sale.

To others vetting his reply: at the time of this writing, there were two (2) jabs at the name. That’s just in case more appear later – not from me, of course. He delivered the final volley, plus my point(s) are established so I must move on to other humor. (Don’t miss the Baby Bobs – just above the “Demented” reply, but make sure your Attends are snug. I lost it, and I wrote it!)

Microsoft’s “Force Feeding” Marketing Ploy

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I would love to see stats on what percent of new Windows versions and upgrades are purchased ?a la carte? (on a stand-alone CD), versus the percentage of licenses that are bundled with the purchase of a new PC. My guess is that the percentage of stand-alone upgrades sold is 5% or less.

As an example, the only time I have ever purchased an upgrade of Windows was to jump from XP Home to XP Pro ? strictly due to my having to occasionally tie in to my employer?s network via VPN to solve emergency issues. In addition, I know of one local software company whose dozens of help desk employees use hand-me-down PCs from other departments ? most of which are running 98SE or 2000 –with no problems at all.

The only way Microsoft seems able to get a new version of Windows into the pipeline is the same way I have purchased all my other upgrades — by forcing PC manufacturers to include it in the OEM bundle on new systems. As soon as Vista officially launches, it will be all but impossible to get XP on a new system ? even from BTO companies such as Dell and Systemax.

It would be nice if Microsoft took the same approach as Intel does on CPUs: Price the new Vista as a top-shelf item, and still offer the older XP at a greatly reduced price for at least a year or two. Doing this could actually improve Microsoft?s earnings: It would drop the price of entry-level PCs (making a first or additional PC more affordable for lower income households, schools, etc) and would make Linux a less attractive option for average (non-geek) users.

Vista Good, Vista Bad, It doesn’t matter it’s going to sell

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

What cracks me up the most is that, with out UNIX you would all still be using pad and pencil. You wouldn?t even have a digital calculator. Which brings us to LINUX not a duck, but a Mighty Penguin? ?Son of UNIX? Windows came way later. And for your timeline there was a Windows 1.1. Bill Gates worked for IBM on O/S2 long before, when Microsoft was just a dream. I also agree with an earlier post O/S2 Warp (or any version of O/S2) Blew windows out the door. I have been using Linux since it came out. I use
SUSE Linux and Windows XP. I like XP it nice however Linux is far superior. It?s a
OS superior to anything windows has to offer. I liked NT when it was out. And just to set the record straight on the first Post, DOS is an OS. Windows up to Win 95 was not. It was still a program running on DOS (that means it depended on DOS to run). So that changes the Good /Bad scores. I realize some of you are too young to remember things like this. It was a fancy GUI for DOS. Bill Gates wanted a GUI like the MAC. This is one of the reasons average people will buy Windows over Linux. It?s the GUI, they say ?Linux is to hard to learn?. They can?t handle the ?Command Line principle? They want to click their mouse on and Icon. And the Mouse was developed by Apple Computers not Microsoft. I loved DOS, I miss its text base OS. Linux has many pretty GUI?s but it doesn?t depend on them. If you are an IT, professional. You owe it to yourselves to see what is out there and try them. You would be surprised. And if you find them to hard to learn. Go back to school. On an earlier post. Someone took a shot at MAC next time you go to a movie. All or most of the SFX you see on the screen, done on a MAC. George Lucas studios all the Graphic work is done on MAC. PIXAR and most of the rest MAC. I think Vista will do very well. Not because it good but because Microsoft says, you need this and your life will be easier. People want the next new gadget. They won?t be happy. But they will just keep looking. But they won?t find it. Its just bragging rights. They can say ?I have the new Vista on my new Computer? and I don?t have a life.

agreed

In reply to Vista Good, Vista Bad, It doesn’t matter it’s going to sell

back when the pc first started to came around, there was IBM or Apple and the REAL computers ran UNIX. But the reality is, working from a command line is time consuming and requires way too much effort for those of us who need to accomplish something other than typing all day. So I say more power to easier operation.

But someone else said it best when they brought up the fact that every new PC will be advanced enough to run Vista, because thats the way the techo ball bounces…. We strive for better, stronger, faster….and that’s the way it should be.

And the other point about M$ dropping support of XP…just their way of making sure the new stuff sells.

Vista may be doomed; who knows? but come on.. patterns??

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I’m sorry I didn’t have time to read this ENTIRE thread, but everyone seems to be taking a lot of time replying with accusations of porn and made-up words. So with that- I’ll get to the point.

First of all, based on atroon’s original pattern post. I agree with your evaluations, but I don’t know if I agree with your order. I wouldn’t group Windows 98 with NT. That’s simply off. Windows 95 and NT should technically be grouped, but when you count all the service packs- NT ends up with 98. For that reason, NT should be on its own, not grouped with 98.

WinME was pretty much 98SE with extra bugs. Oh yeah… where is your separation of 98 and 98SE? I definitely rate 98SE MUCH higher than 98.

I could probably go on for days with this, and add in some DOS 1.1 etc to boot, but that’s totally unnecessary.

My real point is that we should judge Vista on its specs/capabilities/editions/etc. It’d be real nice to find a pattern, but come on, all of you who work in the real world know it’s not that simple.

And I definitely think that MS overcomplicated the different editions of Vista. Most end users won’t get it, but as IT folk- it’s really not that tough.

Thoughts?

Somehow I agree

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

At Beislule Consulting, we have been testing the RC1 Vista for over 3 months now and find it no so easy to handle.
The way they organized the folders and somehow the way to access them is quiet annoying and it not so easy to understand the way “security” affects all the users.
It is also bothering that fairly new video cards are not “Vista compatible” and what outstands the most is the fact that when you try to move full folders from one partition to another the OS seems to lack the ability to move them completely and keeps asking you that the folders is not empty and gives you a popup window where you only have the option to skip or cancell, plus the option of doing the same for all the remaining files in the folders to move….
We found this last part incredibly annoying. Enough reason not to use the OS.

In other set of ideas, In the list of Operating Systems, Windows Server 2003 is missing… (another case of the infamous Windows Me?)

We believe Microsoft should be liable for selling Windows Me…. By far the most disgusting OS ever!

B Munoz
Beislule Consulting

I am just plain sick of Microsoft constant upgrades

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Upgrade; pay more money; ooops…
doesn’t work right…
sorry about that…

I don’t see why we NEED a new operating
system every couple of years other
than to line pockets.

At the very least it could be a
little cheaper to upgrade.

Well the reason we need a new OS every few years is simple

In reply to I am just plain sick of Microsoft constant upgrades

It’s to keep up with advances in Hardware design. Little unimportant things like Dual Core with HTT so you can have what looks like 4 CPU’s working for you.

We move from 8 to 16 to 32 bit without much in the way of problems and then all advances stopped right there.

The average person/business needed XP to support those HTT CPU’s or the newer Dual Cores but as yet we don’t have an offering from MS to run the Dual Cores with HTT on the desktop and precious little to show for 64 Bit OS and associated drivers not to mention the necessary 64 Bit Software. Sorry it just hasn’t happened and there have been 64 Bit CPU’s out for quite a long time now.

Currently we need a new OS that can handle a 64 Bit Dual Core with HTT piece of hardware with the improved graphics but we don’t need more of the same old junk that is being dished up with the current release of Vista.

Currently any 64 Bit Linux Distro is miles in front of where MS is today and getting further ahead while MS seems stuck in the mud crying about what they are no longer leading the field.

Currently we don’t need a new version of XP but something revolutionary new to make use of the current available hardware. But just to make you feel good according to MS at a Partners Meeting on the 22 May 2006 back then Vista represented 1,000,000 Man Hours of Development and they where finding 5,000 problems per day. That was said to impress us but it personally scared the hell out of me knowing just how bad the source code actually was. On 8 November I go to the Product Launch of Vista and Office 2007 and I honestly can not see that all the problems that they had found in May have been fixed let alone the ones that they have found since.

Col

Agree

In reply to Well the reason we need a new OS every few years is simple

<>

Now THAT would be worth upgrading for.

Cheap Hardware

In reply to Agree

It is nice to have an O/S that handles the new hardware advances…unfortunately, those annoying financial people insist on getting the cheapest PC’s we can get away with. They just don’t seem to appreciate that we would like the latest and greatest on our desks.. … They worry too much about business cases and cost efficiency so the need for fancy drivers is pretty much a moot point for our organisation…

Oh well… there’s always my computer(s)…

Vista the future? Of what?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Whether Vista is good or bad is almost irrelevant. It will be part of the scene. What part, will depend on where you are looking. If it is the corporate world where user management, upgrades, security and cost per head are important issues, I see more thin clients, more specialised desktops and more Linux servers but still Microsoft will dominate due to inertia.

In the small business and home user arena (which is about half the market in units) Vista will dominate until the hardware manufacturers see Linux as a significant part of the market to produce drivers for it as standard. This will take more than Ubuntu in its present form. Better GUI than Gnome or KDE and setups of all products, software and hardware, to be as easy as in XP will be a pre-requisite.

Another unrelated publisher 2002 question

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I tried and tried to figure out a way to create a 20 page single publisher newsletter. I tried the Microsoft web site for answers, nothing. I tried News groups posted questions, no answers. Finaly I looked for updates got several, none helped. I solved the problem in a strange way. I created a 20 page news letter in Publisher saved each page as page01, page02, page03, etc. Then I opened Word 97 and copied the first page created in Publisher to Word, then at the end of each page I pressed “enter” and held it down till I saw at least 20 page count in the task bar. Then I copied each page created in Publisher in order. Then I noticed that scrolling from page to page some of the clip art and word groups did not stay in place so, on each page I formatted them to lock in place. Now I can scroll up and down with everything staying in place.

Now I select every page in the Word 97 document and paste it into Publisher 97 (after I did the Publisher updates)and to my surprise it created a 20 page single document. What a surprise. I tried to add a page within Publisher and could not find a way.

Vista actually shows promise

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I’ve been already developing apps on Vista and doing research into its network layers, and originally when I installed Vista Beta 2, I thought it was going to be a spectacular failure. However, their Release Candidates (1 and 2) more than make up for lost ground. Both contain great performance monitoring tools that let you know what your computer is really up to.

Vista is running on my 1.5GHz 512RAM IBM laptop very happily, possibly even faster than XP. It has some annoying features like the User Account Control and other security measures, but these can be turned off.

I would suggest that people try it first before saying its doomed. I’ve also tried Windows Server “Longhorn” and set up an Active Directory domain using it… few bugs still, but a lot of promise and very easy to deploy.

Now that’s what I like to read, real life experiences

In reply to Vista actually shows promise

Stewart,

Good post man, I apprecilove the real life testimony. I will count this as a valid post based on your personal tests.

Keep on testing and turn in some of those feedback and comments.

The Suite

Too Right…

In reply to Vista actually shows promise

I have Vista RC2 installed on my desktop under VMWare, and it has been running without a problem. I have turned off UAC, kept it updated and have the sidebar with a few gadgets and have it at max transparency.

I have got CA Security suite installed, some games and Office 2003, and find it runs great. Will try on its own HDD soon, so I can let it rip with the full use of the system I have.

I have read most of these posts, and find that a lot of the comments are based on personal bias, or maybe even bad experiences. I am more interested in “Back to Back” comparisons of XP and Vista, and so far, minus the bugs that every new OS has, my OPINION is that Vista will finally be able to cater to a broad range of users with its inbuilt software packages and cut down on the amount of 3rd party software required that can cause problems for the home users. Training users will be bit more time consuming, but, the rewards are there to be gained.

Doomed, I dont think so. For the office, it will be a stretch to justify the system requirements and the upgrade, but for home users, cut down on the versions available and it will be a reasonable winner.

Keep em positive thinking and testing comin’

In reply to Too Right…

I love personal thinking and people who do their own testing and development and can speak of and about the issues at hand.

Thank you so much for your time, effort and feedback on this issue. Much appreciloved.

Oh yes, there are a lot of MS haters and biased people posting on this Vista topic but we all know how that goes.

The Suite

OK, how does it go?

In reply to Keep em positive thinking and testing comin’

I admit, I haven’t tried Vista yet. Tried to download it, but the site was too fumbled with something + XP foibles.

I do have my little Channel 9 Man on my desk to prove that I have cooperated in the past. I ?’ed some, so I’m not new to the field, but, honestly, I’m so disappointed by the growing failure rates experienced since DO$ 2.11, combined with all the chutes and ladders I must contend with before producing anything, that I simply don’t have the time, or the inclination to “play” with a new failure before it’s proven.

I realize that many of those out there are really turned on by the “newest” thing, but – given a few years, they begin telling a much different story; that the system is bogged down with problems, but that’s usually when the next big blunder is about to surface, and these newbie-lovers can’t wait to be seen as “experts” with all their “testing” and praises.

I know how that goes too, and we who complain are finally proven right by those who sing the praises, … mostly for the joy of hearing their own voices.

Been using since pre-beta, will migrate when RTM is released

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I have to say that as a personal beta tester over the past 16 months I have adopted and is using Vista in production. When it hits RTM I will be moving all my systems (except my tablet) to Vista.

I was never fond of people who speak of OSs without hands on knowledge and so I will leave things as is. Unless you do you due diligence, system reviews and risk assessments, then you won’t know the benefits or the pros and cons. I know people who speak very badly of Vista because they are trying to run it in a PIII with 256MB of RAM and a 32MB video card. C’mon now, does that do you justice much less the OS :-)?

Oh, by the way, don’t say anything about something you have no personal experience in. It doesn’t sit well with us “real techs”.

Vista will be a drastic change for every PC user, novice or professional and if you’re waiting till final release then your logic is weak. Even at RC2 you can and will still get the most out of the OS experience.

The Suite

“Doomed from the Start?”……NOooo…….From The Finish!

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Vista will sell prienstalled on many computers, so it will not be DOA. Plenty of inexperienced and uneducated (computer-wise) people will purchase new computers unaware of Microsoft’s monopolistic, abusive EULA (well hidden until they start to use their computer, and then they won’t read it, just click “I agree” so they can try their new computer). They still won’t be aware of what is contained in the EULA until they have a problem and are told to “read your EULA”.
That is why Windows became the most popular system worldwide. It would run on almost any hardware and was reasonably priced (compared to Vista). It had a GUI and mouse capabilities and was treated like “shareware” by Microsoft to insure it’s adoption. Computers were new to most people and they knew most people would pay for it eventually if they learned how to use it. Most new users didn’t even know what an EULA was or bother to read it or find out.
When the market was saturated (Microsoft on about 90% of computers worldwide), and their revenue started dwindling, it was time to start squeezing their no longer “customers”, now “users”. That’s when they implemented “activation” for XP. It’s been a downhill slide since then….went from “activation” to “trusted computing” to “WGA” and now to “Vista” with all their “crap” built in (including “DRM” starting with XP SP/2).
Here’s my rating. I use two groups.
Pre Windows XP…….Microsoft= Good, at least they aparently tried to make the best software they were capable of for their “customers” and charged a reasonable to expensive price.
Post Windows XP……Microsoft= bad to worse, tried to put the screws to their “users” (no longer dignified as customers) any way they can. Don’t give two whoops about product quality, it’s all about $$$$$$$$ and controlling the world. Their ambitions are to own or control the internet and all computers and recieve payment from every one that uses the internet or their computer.

A final thought from me…

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

As I read through all the great Replies, Ideas, Thoughts, ect. – it occured to me: Has ANYONE thought of the HISTORY we’re Living through, and Creating with this stuff? Lot of changes, both good and bad, Advances, and Backsteps all along the way.
I wonder how Archimedes, Da Vinci, Ol’ Ben Franklin, or Thomas Edison, et;al, would’ve handled informational advances of this kind.
I’m sooo lucky to be here at this time!
<...I think>

Amen to that

In reply to A final thought from me…

Very well said. I thank the father’s, developers and coders of the past and for the people like Bill Gates who helped (in whatever way) to present us with such a nice GUI system to work, play, bitch and moan at. The guys took a technology and ran with it and look at how he’s being playa hated for it. Today we still have such people in our midst and close to home, do we bitch and moan at em too :-).

We must salute those of the past and thank them for whatever they did in any way they did it. Kudos to Steve Jobs and the Linux/Unix world as well.

The Suite
(I contribute to these great developments by testing AND giving feedback and comments on how to make them better).
What do you do to help out the development and growth of these products and solutions?

Microsoft OS Systems

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Why can’t Microsoft get it right the first time? Windows XP MCE/Windows Xp has been the biggest pain in the OS computer market ever. It has more holes in it than the best Swiss cheese and I am tried of all of those security patches and upgrades just to make it work. Redmond get a clue, make a staple OS system that does not suck up 3 gigs of hard drive space just to work! Does anyone in Microsoft know how to write simple and effective code? I guess not!

Getting it right the first time?

In reply to Microsoft OS Systems

TCat375,

Have YOU gotten it right the first time YOU tried something? I doubt it. I’m not defending M$, as I have a lot of gripes about them myself.

In writing a program, or maybe even a memo or letter, you write it so it makes sense to YOU, and how YOU would work it, or intended it to be used. But not everyone thinks the same way as you do, and misintruptretations abound. And users will accidently or intentionally use your program (or whatever product) in a way that was not forseen or intended. Thus the ‘bugs’ or ‘bad software’ complaints. I wrote a VERY simple program to help a company keep track of employee vehicles. The users often found ways to use (or misuse) the program that I had not anticipated. The same would hold true for the various versions of Windows. You just can’t account for all the people who simply can’t learn how to correctly use the program, want to mis-use the program, or simply have “finger-farts” and make typos.

And the other problem could be that one programmer might be trying to do something in one way that inadvertantly ‘breaks’ something another programmer did. That’s what testing is for. Even then, some stuff will STILL slip by.

Again, I am NOT defending Microsoft, I have enough reasons of my own to very much dislike them. But your arguement “Why can’t Microsoft get it right the first time” is poor. Watch TV. What about the commercials for all the products that say “NEW AND IMPROVED” ? Guess they didn’t get it right the first time either ?

I just wish their product wasn’t marketed in such a preditory way, wasn’t as expensive, and that M$ in general wasn’t so anti-competitive. Balmer needs to get over or change his ‘GOD’ complex. Good marketing doesn’t have to mean anti-competitive.

Getting it right the first time?

In reply to Getting it right the first time?

Sounds you are a microsoft fan! Remember Bill gates? The guy who stole the ideas from Apple and Sun on GUI OS programs.
Daddy’s money and Lawyers made him a very rich man.

Microsoft has nothing orginal.

^^^^ Kool Aid drinker alert

In reply to Microsoft OS Systems

nt

Absolutely True…

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Example: I once used an old Win95 Pentium I clone in and ATX form factor at work as a standalone scientific data station to do gas sampling. The software was a custom VB4 front end. I wanted to upgrade to Win98 so I could run VB5 and take advantage of ActiveX. I did the install, without a problem and then, daring fate, swapped the hard drive into a still old, but newer Compaq Deskpro 533. Win98 woke up to the proprietary Compaq hardware and asked for the Win98 CD just one time. It then canvased the system and installed all the necessary drivers to get up and running without one request for human intervention. It even rebooted itself twice. how do you beat that? And I had similar positive experiences with Win2k.

WGA on Vista, so?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

WGA is cracked and hacked even today. Every technology Microsoft has tried to lock down has been hacked/cracked. Look at PatchGuard :-), already hacked and it’s not even final yet.

Let’s be real, if you’re a real techie you know the deal and the workarounds.

It’s a matter of ethics.
Would I run a pirate copy of I could?
Hmm, we’ll see how ethical I am and what my morals are in support of the developers.

The Suite

You missed a lot. Too much to make the chart work.

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

OS/2 (Was from Microsoft) Very Bad
Windows 1.0 (I bought it the first week) Bad
Windows 2.x (Don’t remember using it)
Windows 3.1 Bad
Windows 3.11 – 286 Bad
Windows 3.11 – 386 Good
Windows for Workgroups – Epic Bad
NT 3.1 OK
NT 4.0 Good
Windows Multimedia Edition
Windows Tablet Edition (2 versions)
Windows CE 1.0 – 5.0 Mostly Bads

Then there are the Server Editions like 2003

What ever happened to “All roads lead to Cairo?”
And who was Bob?

Rechart!

In reply to You missed a lot. Too much to make the chart work.

O/S’
82: DOS 1.25 (adaptation of PCDOS)
83: DOS 2.0/2.11/2.25 (PCDOS 2.1 existed)
84: DOS 3.0/3.1/3.2/3.3 (PCDOS 3.3 in 87)
88: DOS 4.0/4.01 (Really bad!)
91: DOS 5.0 (ok)
93: DOS 6.0/6.2/6.21/6.22 (last standalone)

Part of Windows O/S:
95: DOS 7.0 (Embedded in Win 95)
96: DOS 7.1 (Win 95b/98)
00: DOS 8.0 (Win ME – last version)

DOS Based Win OS (16/32 bit) 9x:
95: Win 95 – 1st 32-bit MS O/S (Chicago)
98: Win 98 (Memphis)
00: Win ME (Millenium)

Windows OS/Servers NT:
93: Win NT 3.1/Win NT Advanced Server
94: Win NT 3.5 (Daytona)
95: Win NT 3.51

(Win CE also from 1996 on. ‘WINCE’)

Windows OS (32/64 bit) NT:
96: Win NT 4.0 (Break out server OS now).
(SP1/2/3/4/5/6/6a)
00: Win 2000 (NT5)/ W2K Pro
01: Win XP (Whistler)/Win XP Pro/XP 64-bit
(and all the little XP’s!)

Windows Servers NT:
96: Win NT 4.0 Server
97: Win NT 4.0 Server, Enterprise Ed.
98: Win NT 4.0 Terminal Server Ed.
00: W2K Server/Adv Svr/Datacentre Svr

Cairo – well most of it is available in various O/S. They cut up the cadaver to produce a multitude of Frankensteins…

All this proves is:

1. I have too much time on my hands and need to get a life.
2. The life cycle of MS O/S’s is labyrinthian at best.
3. Microsoft hasn’t managed to ship a finished O/S since 1991.
4. Microsoft needs competition.

You May Be Right

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I think you are on to something here! I agree that this has indeed been the trend with Microsoft. I just hope that they are able to break the curse… For mine… Windows ME would have to go down as the all time worst OS ever.

Ignorance

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I read this thread earlier in the week and was amused. Not so much about what is good and bad but the ignorance of the person that even tried to make the comparisons. Nt/98? 2000/XP? Now I agree that MS has had major flops but a monkey could sit down and write comparisons like these. And for this thread to even be mentioned in emails from tech republic is a laugh. Its things like this that TR does to put them lower on my list of worth while opinions.

Or maybe there where comparing LAN’s that they have used or worked on

In reply to Ignorance

So then NT and 95/98 would be correct and the same applies to Y2k and XP.

Both of the NT Based products being on the server side of things and the others being on the desktop. I don’t know if that was what was originally intended but it’s the only way that I can make any sense out of the original posting.

Col

You’re screwing with the chronology

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

The first version of NT came around around the same time as Windows 3.1. Win2000 and XP were distinct releases with some differences between them. Yes, they were based on the same code base, but XP had some features 2000 did not. Not to mention it was more secure.

The way I’d list it from Windows 3.0 on would be:

Windows 3.0: BAD
Windows 3.1: GOOD
Windows NT: GOOD
Windows 95: BAD
Windows 98: GOOD
Windows ME: BAD
Windows 2000: GOOD
Windows XP: GOOD
Windows Server 2003: GOOD
Windows Vista: ?

If you look at this in finer detail, you’ll see that the Windows 3.x and Windows 9x teams had one hit and some misses, but that the Windows NT team had all hits (both 2000 and XP trace their code base lineage back to NT). Windows Server 2003 is a different code base than NT/2000/XP, though I’m sure some of NT is still there. Windows Vista is based on Win2003.

Win OS’s

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I agree with the post exccept for the 95, NT/98 (Why NT and 98 are lumped?) 95=Stable NT=Stable 98=Crashed the day it debuted (an embarrassed Gates) and is a nightmare OS.

Wow! Is this the way it works?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Wow! The Gates & Microsoft company guys I guess have ot yet understood what it takes to make good OS… as as it seems they have no clue on how it goes in Tic-Tac-Tow…

Is it really like this to judge what good & bad???

Tic-Tac-Tow, or better Still

She loves me, She loves me not…

He!He! it kinda Spooky…

Some things that everyone seems to overlooking in this thread are:

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

1. Since the introduction of Windows 95, MS have been telling us, continually, how much better the operating system is, how more user friendly, how more secure, how more productive it will make people at work.

Yet, over the last 11 years, and umpteen versions of Windows, plus the various security upgrades and service packs. We seem to be seeing much of the same thing that we were given with Windows 95. Many of the security patches for Win 98, Win 2K, Win ME, Win XP were to fix security holes that had been found in earlier versions, and patched in them, BEFORE the new version was issued. Yet MS released the new versions with those holes in them.

A large number of the security patches issued were for MS applications that had been specially designed with hooks deep into the Windows OS. So if you used the MS applications you were vulnerable, but if you used third party applications, many of the security holes weren’t exploitable. Great work guys.

In short, according to MS. We were given a great system with Win 95, improved in Win 98, better again with Win 2K, better again with Win XP, and much better again in Win Vista. Yet the beta releases are already needing patches for holes known about since Win 98???

For the office – how does Vista improve my staff use of word processing, spreadsheet, and accounting packages, over they way they were used in Win 95, Win 98, Win 2K, or Win XP. What, it doesn’t. Oh, sorry, I could’ve sworn you said it did. Sorry Bill.

2. MS did a fairly good job with Win 2K, they improved on that with Win XP, that took another 2 years (or there abouts) to do it. They’ve now had four years to improve on XP. Yet the beta versions of Vista are not showing a real improvement over XP – except in the eye candy. Hmmm.

Most of the guys writing Linux bring out a new version every 6 months. Most are doing this in their spare time, as against full time employees at MS. Yet, they get better changes into their system in 6 months than MS does in 2 or 4 years. Hmmm.

Most of the actual improvements in operations in Vista have been available in Unix, Linux, or Mac for some years. Why weren’t they added to some of the various XP service packs, and why aren’t they done as well in Vista as in the systems they were copied from? hmmm.

3. An operating system is supposed to be that, the base on which you load applications and make them available from the desk top. The OS should be an interface between the hardware and the user, that the user uses to access the applications. DOS did that well, so did the early versions of Windows. Now we have Vista including lots of application, why, what’s the aim here. Oh, to justify charging us more, sorry I missed that, I thought it was to increase productivity.

In the end, I expect that Vista will sell very well, not as well as it could have, but well. Why, because the MS marketing people get about ten times the budget as the MS coding people, and they’re good at marketing, much better than the coders are at coding.

Perhaps we’ve all lost the plot

In reply to Some things that everyone seems to overlooking in this thread are:

What we should have been insisting on over the last 10 years is less not more features. More focus on productivity in the core applications. More focus on simplicity for the masses, solid secure systems at the heart, then start bolting on the bells and whistles that are wanted by the 10%, true, a different set of 10% for most.

What we had in the mid ?90s was a very stable network system, Novell 386, a stable Desktop OS, DOS 6.22, a passable GUI desktop environment Windows 3.11 and some fast and stable core applications. We had WordPerfect 6.0 for word processing, Lotus 123 3.x for spreadsheets and Oracle and Informix for the serious database requirements. There were plenty small business accounting packages and a few mediocre graphic tools. For the most part we had systems that were much faster than the operators who used them. Not even the fastest typist or quickest accountants could fault the word processors or spreadsheets.

We also had little idea how the internet would suddenly show us how exposed to security holes we were. Yes, we had a few virus problems, but nothing compared to the spyware and spam problems of today.

So what has happened since ?95. Intel and AMD have competed strongly to produce amazing processing power, IBM/Hitachi, Maxtor, Western Digital, Samsung, Segate and other disk manufacturers have competed strongly to produce the most amazing leaps forward in magnetic storage. Microsoft, without any serious competition, has produced some amazing bloatware with incredible features that are now slower than the DOS based systems and need all the leaps in the hardware technology to stand still. They have single handedly spawned the incredible growth in the computer security industry and still managed to donate billions of dollars to charities, education, lawyers, and Government in anti-trust actions as well as taxes. I just wonder how better they could have done with some serious competition.

I say c?mon those of you Linux types, make something that really compares with Microsoft, let?s have a real competition. Use some of the new platforms as leverage, such as ODF. Create a new email protocol that kills SPAM by forcing true source identity to be exposed. Keep all that wonderful flexibility in the background for developers and sys-ops but hide it from the users. Make systems that your Grandmother could use. Stop lauding the ?it’s free? attitude and make a structure that all developers can make money so proper funding can compete with the small funding that Microsoft puts into development compared with its marketing. Target the 50% that are small business and home users, that way small companies can win small contracts, leave Microsoft to get the big ones while you sneak under their guns and steal all the profitable business.

Of course it is not that simple, business has widened its needs, graphics, audio and video are all part of today?s business as well as home use so OSs need to cope with them. We expect multi-language capability in most applications and all these extras need to be part of the whole not bolt-ons; but the main point is still we need real competition at the desktop that will spill over to the small system server market. Ubuntu is getting closer as are several Linux distros but they are still far short of making a serious dent. Perhaps we should look at the inroads Firefox has made into the browser market against a free and built-in IE. This little bit of quality competition has spawned IE7, not a bad upgrade.

“Stop lauding the “it’s freee” attitude”

In reply to Perhaps we’ve all lost the plot

Haven’t you heard, “money is the root of all evil”?
When money is added to an equation, the crooks creep in. The more money they get, the more money they want. When they get enough money to buy the “LAW”, they’re a monopoly. (How many LAWyers does Microsoft have?)

Well I’ll agree Firefox and the hype around it

In reply to Perhaps we’ve all lost the plot

spawned a vast improvement in security for IE7 under Vista. I don’t agree that it’s free though, not even a little bit.

Microsoft are so dominant on the desktop market only something like open source can compete with them, it’s the one market they can’t use their leverage to buy out, undersell, marginalise or otherwise ruin.

The obverse is also true, without buy in at the user level to fund developers or buy in at the developer level to fund contributions simply making stuff you want to ‘sell’ won’t work.

Try to compete with MS’s strengths and they’ll make sure you lose, you have to exploit their weaknesses, fortunately there’s lots of potential there.

Tell It Like It Is!

In reply to Some things that everyone seems to overlooking in this thread are:

Keep stomping their butt. Anyone who wants the truth will recognize the truth when they see it, and those that don’t want the truth will be more pi$$ed than ever.
You have more supporters than you know.
RAVE ON!

Charley Manson had alot of supporters also

In reply to Tell It Like It Is!

Keep that in mind 😉

Yeap, and that’s why Windows will be a success, too many

In reply to Charley Manson had alot of supporters also

people follow MS and Windows, the way some followed Manson, or the Branch Davidian (Waco), or Jamestown. Have enough control of the media and you can get people to believe anything, that’s why MS spend so much on advertising – Adolf got by as he didn’t have to pay for his advertising.

Time to call Godwin’s??

In reply to Yeap, and that’s why Windows will be a success, too many

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_law

I feel the same way

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

While others have pointed out possible version misses from the list, that’s irrelivent when you look at the big picture.
I remember using XP in beta and it was such a huge improvement over anything before it. I loved it since day one and its never let me down.
On the same token, I’ve been using Vista since the early builds and even at RC1 it cant replace my XP installations. No matter how much I want it to. Yes it has a nice new interface but I’m finding the functionality of it, well strange. Little things like the task pane in XP is great and dynamic and in vista was replaced by a seemingly static pane of links with stupid stuff like links to pictures, or docs, or videos, but no network locations.
Anyway, personally I’m sure I’ll use Vista but I think that it wont be as much of a hit as XP is. Perhaps the next version of windows currently known as ‘blackcomb’ I believe will be the next big popular release. Or otherwise just known as ‘good’.
Vista I’m sorry to say just is not impressive given the 6 years it’s taken to make it.

Perhaps this is a bit off the subject but

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

it seems to me there should be a law at the Federal level which states that if a company creates a product, they must, for a certain period of time, support that product with whatever the product requires to operate effectively. Instead we have Microsoft deciding at different times to stop supporting 98, 2000, and eventially XP……I think if they are selling to the public they have a responsibility to keep a product functioning. I mean if you buy an appliance for your home, you should reasonably expect that the thing should be able to be fixed say for a 10-20 year time span. It may not be as fast or effective as a newer model but I just might like what I have. I would never buy any other product if the thing could not be expected to work, say in 10 years time and need to be replaced for lack of parts. I THINK THERE SHOULD BE A CONSUMER LAW.

Consumer Law?

In reply to Perhaps this is a bit off the subject but

I don’t think that a federal law mandating product support for specific period of time is workable.

1. Gov’t interference in business cycles would be a disaster.
2. Costs would be driven up as companies are forced to maintain older products.
3. Development would move offshore to less restrictive environments.
4. Companies would constantly be applying for exemptions.
5. Who looks after the product if the company folds.
6. Most important: This is a democratic, free-market capitalist country where market forces rule. If you don’t like their products, buy something else like Linux, Lindows (oops I mean Linspire!), Unix (or God forbid a MAC!!!!) — and then curse at the shortsighted people that drove OS/2 to an early grave.

The Other Side Of The Coin

In reply to Consumer Law?

You are correct. We do not not need, nor would it work, a law to tell manufacturers what they MUST do. What we DO need, and what WOULD work is a law to tell manufacturers what they CAN NOT do.
That is: actively prevent 3rd party support for a product after the manufacturer stops support, whether by technical or legacy (traditional) means, including digital code to prevent support.
If such a law were enforced, it would prevent monopolies (such as Microsoft) from leveraging their products after market saturation by rendering them useless and forcing customers to purchase new products.
Actually, such laws already exist, but the current ACCEPTANCE of monopolies makes the law worthless.

How do you … ???

In reply to Perhaps this is a bit off the subject but

…”that product with whatever the product requires to operate effectively”, when the problems associated with DOS X.x, Win 3.x, 95, 98, 98SE, ME, XP, SP1, SP2, countless patches and fixes are the plain evidence of crap that never worked right, was not, obviously, intended to work right, and could never be fixed because it was built on a faulty foundation.

M$ produces known crap, … because they can and get away with it. Instead of doing a total rewrite from ??, they keep adding to the compost heap and we wonder why it stinks.

They can’t provide “that product with whatever the product requires to operate effectively” because they know it never will, and they can make more $$$ from hyping the next level of compost. It was never their intention to make anything effective, just profitable.

In the beginning, they had a simple system dedicated to $top Lotus 123, then they began attacking anything and everything el$e out there. Their tactic is to disrupt, not to make work. Once that is known, the rest falls very neatly into place.

Vista is just the beginning

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Microsoft are giving a makeover to windowsxp.
The others extra functions ar indeed useful.
I bielieve this is just the beginning until they come up with a stable version of windows vista.

Actually it is more of a make over of Server 2003

In reply to Vista is just the beginning

Actually MS found in 2004 that basing on XP/2000 kernal did not work, so they had to start all over again.
As far as being stable if it was not as stable as or even (as I have found more stable as XP. I would not be using it(RC2) 99.9 % of the time.
Mike

PS that 99,9% of the time is Ultimate X64.

your forgeting mediacenter 2003..

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

media center 2003, and xp64 bit..

btw you really think XP is good?

Vista is bound to be a success

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

You have missed Windows 2003. You can not club XP with Windows 2000. You can probably better to combine XP with Windows 2003.
if any product from Microsoft did not do well that was entirely due to internal quality issue alone and due to market forces. Tha way microsoft is its own competitor. Vista is a high quality product which I am using for last 6 months and is very stable.

2000/XP??

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

NT and 98 are not the same OS. And they didn’t come out at the same time. Also,
XP came out a few years AFTER 2000. So by the pattern you’ve described, it should be

2000 – Good
XP – Bad
Vista – Good

past os from ms

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

i’ve used most of the dos os and found that just about every time they came out with a new one, they had to make multiple re-writes to get them to work right. i have used any of the later ver other than xp pro but i feel very sure they’ll screw up vista since they NEVER get the new os right the first time and are always having to re-write the damn thing. maybe they ought to send it out for tewsting everywhere before trying to sell it?

The Actual MS OS List since 1986

In reply to past os from ms

If this idea of alternate OSes being good and bad is derived from the even and odd Star Trek movies then the premise is flawed because the 10th Trek film (“Nemesis”) broke the rule by being a bad one (although not as bad as the 9th film, “Insurrection”)

A few people have noted that the list of OSes is incomplete. Also, if we’re going back to 1986 then we need to go back to MS DOS 3.2, not 3.3 (which didn’t come out until 1987). Also there was no DOS 4.2 Plus there are a few other interesting releases. I’ve listed every release I could remember, with comments where necessary:

DOS 3.2 Jan 1986

DOS 3.3: Aug 1987

Windows 2.0: Nov 1987

Windows 2.03: Jan 1988 – allowed windows to overlap (in previous versions they were only tiled), and also used protected mode and extended memory (unlike previous versions)

Windows 2.1 May 1988 (released in two variants: Windows/286 2.1 and Windows/386 2.1, tailored for the Intel 286 and 386 processors)

DOS 4.0: Jun 1988

DOS 4.01 Dec 1988 (bug fix only)

Windows 2.11 Mar 1989

Windows 3.0: May 1990 (could be run in different modes allowing compatibility with older processors)

Windows 3.1: March 1991

DOS 5.0: Jun 1991

Windows 3.1: Mar 1992 (32 bit file access, no support for pre 286 processors)

Windows 3.1 for Workgroups Nov 1992
(limited native LAN support, file sharing)

DOS 6.0: Mar 1993

Windows NT 3.1: Jul 1993 (first 32 bit OS for MS – used the same version number as Windows for marketing reasons)

DOS 6.2: Nov 1993 (bug fix only)

Windows 3.11 for Workgroups: Dec 1993
(better LAN support and 32 bit file access)

DOS 6.21 Feb 1994 (DoubleSpace compression removed for legal reasons – otherwise same as 6.2)

DOS 6.22: Jun 1994 (DriveSpace added in lieu of DoubleSpace)

Windows NT 3.5: Sep 1994

Microsoft BOB: Feb 1995 (extraordinarily dumbed down GUI – also introduced a feature later notoriously reborn as the “Office Assistant” in Microsoft Office). Now officially stricken from the record, and as Microsoft still acknowleges ME you know that BOB must have really, really sucked.

Windows NT 3.51: May 1995

Windows 95: Aug 1995

Windows NT 4: Jul 1996

Windows 98: Jun 1998

Windows 98SE: May 1999

Windows 2000: Feb 2000

Windows ME: Sep 2000 (A major advance: could crash up to 4 times faster than any previous OS)

Windows XP: Oct 2001

Windows 2003: Oct 2002

Windows XP Media Center: 2002 – 2005 (four releases, some available only to OEMs, Media Center Edition 2004 is included in XP Service Pack 2, also Media Center cannot join an Active Directory domain)

Windows Vista: Nov 2006 (if you’re lucky), Jan 2007 (for regular peeps)

Stretching it a bit

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

You’re stretching it a bit by lumping 2000 & XP under the one banner. 2000 was good because it wasn’t nt4 & fixed lots of problems but had limited driver support for games, or advanced hardware like high-tech funky graphics cards. XP fixed that and returned the NT core to the game-players market of twitch-ready. Having used Vista for a few weeks on the beta now, it has fast networking (none of this waiting for the torch to find all the members of a workgroup) and a tidier interface that looks less Fisher-Price than XP, I would say your pattern is due for a break down.
(Note – I hate all OS’s similarly, there are good and bad about all Mac-OS, Unix, Linux and others – for the record I have one of each – Solaris, Irix, Freebsd, MacOSX & Win2K & WinXP at home and even more variety at work, and they are all good at specific tasks).

NT/98 and 2000/XP

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

ok how in anyones name can you compare NT and 98 they are so different it is not funny. and same as with 2000 and XP, any comparison would pretty much stop at they all have “Windows” in their name and can run applications

Vacancy for technical consultant?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

As many others have pointed out this is a completely invalid pattern, mixing technologies that aren’t related and missing important versions.

I find it difficult to understand how anyone in TechRebublic allowed this to qualify for the newsletter. Aren’t there any technically knowledgeable writers working there?

Having worked closely on testing Vista compliancy from August 2005 I have to say that apart from the hiccup that was Beta 2 they have been consistently improving with every release.

I am sure that by the end of next year when all the nit-picking and nay-saying has died down Vista will be judged to be a GOOD OS by the industry.

A few points

In reply to Vacancy for technical consultant?

This was a post from a member, not a newsletter and certainly not the product of one of their technical writers. Though they do talk bollocks on occasion as well. 😀

That a beta has more problems than an aplha, isn’t unexpected, nor is an RC having less problems than previous releases.

As for your last point, I suspect it will be good for Microsoft. I suspect it will be good for hardware manufacturers.

I suspect more than a few business managers looking at their bottom line, are going to be questioning Bill’s parentage if they take the jump quickly though.

Just upgrading the PCs is going to cost a lot , never mind the disruption of the roll out. If MS keep selling Vista on the basis of drivel like transparent windows, and photo album manipulation, there’s going to be a serious perception problem.

Haven’t even mentioned all the critical 3rd party applications, far less any in house software either. I’d say three years , plus any pain from service packs or lack of them, personally.

As far as general business need goes we’ve been in diminishing returns since NT.

The Edsel was a great car – and a marketing flop as it

In reply to Vacancy for technical consultant?

had a lot of unwanted, unneeded features – just like Vista. not even the great Ford Corporation could make people buy it, but then they had strong viable opposition that they hadn’t been able to force under with predatory marketing techniques – so they had troubles that MS don’t face.

why the discussion

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

was any MS software any good ?! vista was doomed ever since it was an MS software

Win 2000/XP are the same thing?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Don’t think so, and, by the way, you missed 2003. So it’s gonna be Windows 2000 is good, XP is bad, 2003 is good and Vista still is bad. Nothing changes about Vista, but I wouldn’t say that XP is bad at all 🙂

Illogical Captain

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Who said XP was good? If it was as good as suggested, why are so many people in the industry as well well as consumers looking at Apple and Linux?

Vista Doomed?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

You’ve bundled Windows 2000 and XP together just to try and make a pattern. By your reasoning 2000 was Good, XP bad and then Vista is going to be Good.

Windows Vista good or bad?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

My assesment of Vista is 7 out of 10, getting away from Good and Bad.
No doubt that Microsoft will eventualy get it right but there are many compatability issues that need resolving with driver software, MS office software, and backward compatability with other programme software. Just with XP they will get there but for the moment Ill steer clear for perhaps 6 to 12 months

OK you thinks it’s 7 / 10, now please explain why I should

In reply to Windows Vista good or bad?

ditch perfectly good hardware and software, and pay a couple of thousand buck per machine, to buy new hardware and software, just to move up to Vista – like MS wants us to. Win 2K, Win 98, and Win XP all still work perfectly fine in the office environment and at home.

edited to fix typo

No one is making you

In reply to OK you thinks it’s 7 / 10, now please explain why I should

So just don’t. You’re getting worked up over nothing. I’ve been reading this horrible thread for 3 days now (Its like reality TV, can’t rip my eyes off) and I still cannot gather why you are so bent out of shape. Do not use it. No one is making you. No one is making US. It’s a choice. Choose not to use, and move on.
And please stop dictating what office environments can/can’t/shouldn’t/wouldn’t do.
With that attitude, there would be NO advancements.
You see, there is a thing called technology, and it moves on regardless of what any individual thinks

Actually, many are forcing us, especially MS

In reply to No one is making you

MS pressure Dell, HP and co to put Windows on their system. Buy one of their systems you have to pay for Windows, if you want it or not.

MS deliberately change Windows so that software made for one versions isn’t fully compatible with the others. Also, much isn’t compatible with different levels of hardware. Thus forcing changes on the user.

The MS EULA forbids an end user from selling the software on, except under extremely limited conditions, and the latest one, places extremely tight restrictions on the way the end user can use it. Am I glad that I live in a country where the government has laws overriding such foolishness, and forces them to behave according to the local laws – so I can sell anything I buy and if I have to reactivate for any changes, they must make it possible.

I’m all for technology moving on, and for innovation – I just wish MS would do some, and that they would make their offerings stable and properly programmed before they push it at the public.

Vista is no innovation, it’s eye candy, and most of that stolen from their opposition.

Edited to add.

When I buy a car or some other appliance, I can expect to use it for many years. When the manufacturer stops supplying bits to fix it, then third party people are allowed to supply them. Not so with MS, if it’s not genuine MS, they’ll hunt you down, even when they’ve stopped looking after it. Yeah they don’t force anyone to upgrade. Right.

Blow it away and install Linux

In reply to Actually, many are forcing us, especially MS

Problem solved….oh wait, thats not my line 😉
Linux can do anything MS can, only better, right? You can order machines with no OS installed, whether in Austrailia or Mars

Yes you can, but if you’re buying a Dell, HP, IBM or any other

In reply to Blow it away and install Linux

similar major brand pre-built, that is the majority of those that do the big advertising, the price already includes the cost of a Windows licence – and they won’t take any off for wiping it and giving you Linux instead.

If you want a system without an OS, and not have the Windows licence fee already included in the price, you go to a local shop and have it built from parts, or do it yourself.

Even then Ernest MS is attempting to get all

In reply to Yes you can, but if you’re buying a Dell, HP, IBM or any other

System Builders to provide copies of Windows on any system that we build no matter what the OS will actually be that is installed. Apparently it’s to increase out profits according to MS. 😀

This is the same company who is still selling copies of DOS for some plant hat runs on DOS and because the controller breaks and gets repaired you have to buy a new copy of DOS. I currently have 1 Armature Winding Machine with at least 80 OEM Copies of MS Dos tied to it. I’m still not sure what constitutes [b]Original Hardware[/b] but if M$ want their $50.00 AU per copy of DOS every time that I rebuild this unit it’s a very small price to pay for nothing with no support and the Tax Man actually is the one paying for the majority of it so I don’t care. :p

However what I do love is M$ attitude when it comes to [b]Insurance Jobs[/b] you can rebuild the stolen machine and supply it without a COA or any install disc’s provided that there is a Police Report of the theft. As for any of the Insurance Work no mater what it is you just replace whatever is required and then use the existing Product Keys and install away without a second thought from M$.

I had one insurance company spit the dummy several years ago about this and I just told them to ring M$ and sort it out between them as I was under instructions to sell new OEM Software with a new machine. Latter that day I got a phone call from M$ telling me that in this particular case I could use the old Product Keys and install from there without a second thought.

Apparently the companies with the money don’t have to comply with M$ EULA.

Col

Hey Col, mate, maybe you should check how much of the

In reply to Yes you can, but if you’re buying a Dell, HP, IBM or any other

EULA is legal under the law up their in the sunshine (yeah right – shouldn’t that be drought, now) state. Here in NSW, thanks to various federal and state laws, most of the EULA is invalid – it contravenes the law.

For example, if I have a legal copy of a MS product, and I move it from machine to machine, I can – no limit, as long as I have it on only one machine at a time. As long as I have the proper number of licences to match the number of installs, they’re happy. So if I do all the installs of 50 machines from one copy, they don’t care – as long as I have 50 licences.

If I sell a machine I have to remove the software, or hand over the licence with it. Had a few cases where people had laptops and desktops stolen, but they still had the discs and the licences (never put the fancy stickers on the machines) – so when they bought replacement computer, without any software – we, quite legally, installed the existing software on the new machines. The people with the stolen units had the unlicenced software, not the owners. Same applies to damaged or destroyed machines.

Regarding the DOS based factory equipment, as long as you have a valid licence, you can reinstall it on the same machine as often as you want, so each rebuild could be done with the original licence.

MS are going to have a very hard time enforcing their new Vista EULA restrictions in NSW, because the laws state that the user has the legal right to reuse, and that has some case law support as well. Wish I could remember the references, happened back in the early days of NT.

On a personal note, my first copy of Win XP was loaded onto, at different times, what amounts to 6 different computers – changed motherboards, hard drives, etc; but only on one at a time – had to call MS a few times for new keys, they gave them up no trouble – this was well before the WGA problem resulted in several more installs. My legal copy of Win 2K, has been, one machine at a time, on 15 different machines at different times, even loaned it out for people to try out Win 2K, when I didn’t have it installed. All against the MS EULA, but legal under our consumer laws.

I can’t remember the number of different machines I had my copies of DOS 6.22 and Win 3.11/32S installed on. When the ex left, she took the computer, but left all the software behind, so I bought a replacement computer, and reinstalled – I had the licences, not her. The receipts were in my name, I treated it as a stolen item.

edited to add re MS calls and fix typos

Ernest I try to avoid the Legal Profession at every possibility

In reply to Yes you can, but if you’re buying a Dell, HP, IBM or any other

Mainly because I have several Barrister’s and QC’s in the family who persist in handing out my name and phone number to get me work that I desperately need. 😀

But as far as the EULA goes when it comes to XP Pro I had an interesting discussion with a couple of QC’s and Barrister’s who specialise in Company Law apparently because the XP Pro EULA specifically states 2 CPU’s it can legally be used on 2 different computers and provided that they only have 1 CPU that should be 1 Chip that works as a CPU it can be installed on 2 computers under our law. The single CPU can be a Dual Core with HTT so it’s effectively 4 CPU’s but in a strictly legal sense it’s only one CPU no matter how it appears to work 1 Chip = 1 CPU legally speaking.

As far as that Armature Winder goes they are willing to pay the $50.00 for the license so I don’t care the company involved just see it as an expense of doing work and try to up the repair costs as much as possible, as I said the Tax Man pays for most of it so they don’t care. They have a massive production facility which makes and re-manufactures Electrical Generation equipment here from transformers up to the big AC Generators. I think you’ll know who they are as they are fairly big AU Wide in this area but they have everything from computer controlled lathes with 40 + foot beds and massive swing areas to some of the smallest milling machines that I’ve ever seen. At the next refit I’ve got my hand up for some of those machines as they just get dumped one of the smaller lathes and a smallish milling machine would suit me quite well here. 😀 They tried to get me to take an armature winder with all the trimmings it must have weighed close to 100 tons and was bigger than the block of land that the house is on. They even offered to deliver it free of charge so I imagine that the disposal costs must have been very high.

But when Windows 95 came out and any of their DOS based machines needed a rebuilt which always means new computer hardware inside them as the areas are not all that clean with metal shavings and Cutting oil everywhere they where told that they had to buy new Licenses for DOS from the makers and as they are currently only paying $50.00 AU per license they continue to buy these as they just don’t want any problems if M$ ever hit them with an audit. They see it better to have too many licenses than 1 to few as it saves them lots of money.

However what I do get a good laugh out of is all the Volume License stuff that I sell apparently when it’s resold after the end of it’s work life if I sell it as a complete machine I’m supposed to supply a COA and the original Install CD’s with every computer. But actually you don’t get any COA’s and you only get 1 install set of CD’s for the software that you are using with a piece of paper telling you how many times you can install it on different computers. There have been a couple of the more reputable computer business up here getting hit by MS for Piracy by not supplying the Original Install Media on second hand computers that have come from a domestic installation and they have lost the cases. I just can not help but wonder where M$ gets off with this policy as I’ve yet to find many domestic users who bother to keep those unnecessary Install CD’s that come with the new computer. I don’t know how you would go with Volume License Stuff either but as I junk it all and destroy the HDD’s involved it’s not my problem. But I do see MS as grasping for money in selling new OEM Software when you sell Second Hand Computers and while this will not impact on the average end user it’s a problem for shops who really have done nothing wrong particularly since 98SE there have been COA’s stuck to the side of the cases so you are sure that the Windows install is at the very least legit but without the Install CD’s you are breaking the EULA that MS enforces so strongly here.

Most of these cases are settled out of court as the money involved is way to great to bother to fight them and I’m sure that M$ prey on this but I have several Barristers and up who want to take M$ on in the courts but I just don’t have the time or inclination to bother. If the DOS Licenses where more than $50.00 it might be a different story but for such a small price it’s not worth the bother or wasted time in fighting MS over such a small issue. Of course if they insist that you buy Vista Enterprise to use the Backward License that’s a different story but personally I can’t see that happening as M$ would loose too much money for doing absolutely nothing at all.

Col

Hey Col, I don’t like law dogs either, but it’s good to know

In reply to Yes you can, but if you’re buying a Dell, HP, IBM or any other

what the law is applicable to a situation, so if you do break it, you do so knowingly. That way you know what evidence to hide or destroy.

But DE you know

In reply to Yes you can, but if you’re buying a Dell, HP, IBM or any other

That Ignorance of the Law is no Defence. :p

However it can also be used as a defence as you can quite rightly claim that as you didn’t know any better you had no intent to break the Law and without intent there is nothing that can be done about what you’ve done. :^0

Unfortunately M$ come out and give you a good talking to so that defeats the entire purpose of the exercise but if you can honestly say that you’ve been told different and send them off to chase down another Legal Source that should get them out of your hair for several years. 😀

But no doubt they will come back with a vengeance before the original argument has been settled and hit you then. Apparently they claim that they use the 3 strikes & you’re out principal.

OH I almost forgot the M$ Dog is no more it’s been replaced with something that actually finds things a little too well if you are demonstrating on your personal everyday computer I’m told. So I just had to ask [b]Does this mean that M$ Bob is finally dead & buried?[/b] 😀

I got a funny look from most of them there but the head tech from M$ just said [b]YES![/b] But if the torch still appears the son or grandson of M$ Bob will still be there both of those things drive me crazy. 🙁

Col

Let’s see what’s stolen

In reply to Actually, many are forcing us, especially MS

1 Widgets(sidebar) oops from konfabulator who stole from ?
2 Better search(oops announced 3 to 4 years ago by MS)
3 Mac System Preferance arranged by catigories- oops windows control panel(1 year earlier than Apple)
4 KDE/Gnome tries looking like Windows desktop from what I’ve read
Looks like if one has a good idea they steal from each other.
Ernest you know as well as anyone-innovation is not always on the surface where it is seen.
Mike

GUI, widgets, search, categories, menus etc. It’s all stolen

In reply to Let’s see what’s stolen

Try this article, its a bit older than Windows:

http://www.bootstrap.org/chronicle/press/990708/1972_idg.html

All that is used to make up, and use, a modern GUI was developed by PARC in the 1970s, 1980s. Jobs stole it from Xerox, Gates stole it from Jobs. Arranging things in categories – well many years ago I had an IBM with OS2, guess what, it had all that. As did the accounting program I’d been using on the DOS based machine for years before that.

As for a better search – well it’s about time they finally provided one that’s as capable as the one my old DOS system had in 1989.

Re the KDE looking like the Win 98 Windows screen, that is due to Windows having stolen that layout from PARC, and the guys writing KDE had customer feed back ‘I’m so used to the way it’s laid out I Windows, can you do something like that.’ To put it simply, they responded to a customer requests – pity MS don’t.

Even MSIE is stolen from Navigator, which is stolen from the original Mosaic program.

Oh, almost forgot, Billy didn’t steal the original DOS program, he bought it for a song, but only AFTER he knew he had a good market for it at a high mark up.

Billy is great at seeing marketing opportunities, not at computer innovation.

Interesting, but what about Magellan?

In reply to GUI, widgets, search, categories, menus etc. It’s all stolen

I remember it as a part of something that came bundled with a client’s 286; DOS 5(?) Aldus PageMaker 3.?; dBASE IV. I think Magellan was from Lotus, but that doesn’t make sense, since I did not want Lotus on his machine – never use it unless it’s already on their system.

Anyway, Magellan was a lot like Explorer in 95. Since I used keyboard and avoided mouse then, can’t tell you if it had click-n-drag.

OK, are you looking at a html web browser or GUI

In reply to GUI, widgets, search, categories, menus etc. It’s all stolen

The first GUIs appeared in the 1960s, the modern computer GUI was developed at PARC in the early 1970s – both used icons, mouse, windows. Since then many systems had mouse driven GUIs for their applications. Browsers come in with the use of HTML. The first html browser was Mosaic in 1993. However, prior to that there was a GUI with a similar name that was used as an overlay for the mainframe computer connections some universities used on Arpanet, and it could be used to open a FTP link (damned if I remember the name – read about it in a early computing text).

Mosaic allowed html access to the www. Prior to that there was a swag of GUIs for access to your local system and mainframe system.

The program you’re thinking of is probably one of the early GUIs for the local system.

I totally agree

In reply to No one is making you

Now could you enlighten me how MS has helped move technology on with it’s current offerings of any OS or application.

AMD has had 64 Bit CPU’s for at least 3 years and we as yet have to get a usable MS Offering that can make full use of these CPU’s Intel coming latter to the field with the EMT has been around a shorter time but they did have a dedicated 64 Bit CPU available before the P4 with EMT became available and guess what it didn’t sell all that well because the Dominate player in the field had nothing to support the New Technology.

Now we are seeing Dual Core with HTT and just how many MS OS’s can use one of these CPU’s to it’s full extent. Well server 2003 can but it’s not a desktop OS and would be useless for what most people are buying these CPU’s for anyway.

I can understand your need to tie your future business to MS as you have invested so much in becoming a MS VAR and you need to recoup that expense but really MS isn’t doing anything to advance Technology it’s actually holding things back from developing at the rate that things should be developing. Intel has announced the Quad Core CPU’s that they are working on and as well as having 4 CPU’s on 1 chip there will be 128 Bit capable no doubt AMD isn’t far behind in the race either so just how will a 64 Bit Vista help advance this coming technology?

Personally I don’t see the point in buying something that is capable of performing much better and then only using part of it’s available performance, this is wasting your money and as the technology has surpassed MS efforts to keep up if anything MS will be the one paying the price for becoming what it fought when it was originally founded. It was supposed to remain small and be able to rapidly change direction as the technology developed and it replaced the Giant Companies who could do none of this. Now MS has become exactly what they where fighting and beating all those years ago and are now the Giant unyielding company that is incapable of fast changes in direction at the drop of a pin. Their own success is what is going to be the thing that kills them.

It’s happened previously and will no doubt happen again only a fool would refuse to accept the need for change and just how inevitable it is.

Col

Hey Col, the real interesting thing about the changes in Windows

In reply to I totally agree

is that most of the changes they made to create XP, and those they’re making to create Vista, are things that the MS marketing people derided about Linux years before, when Linux incorporated them as a new desktop applications. They’re so bad that MS now has to include them as core elements of their latest Windows.

At least in Linux they do them as controllable applications you can turn bits and pieces on or off.

—–

BTW, I’d warn your cat if I were you, I heard the dog next door just hired an expert mortar team. he wants to turn your cat into a drink, a cat-a-tonic drink.

edited to fix typo

That’s no CAT it’s [b]SWMBO[/b] on a [b]BAD DAY![/b]

In reply to Hey Col, the real interesting thing about the changes in Windows

It’s a [b]Wild Pu$$y.gif.[/b] and the mussel flashes look good on the Personal Log On display. :^0

I actually put my Eye back and it didn’t look right so I tried the Wild Pu$$y just to see what it looked like and then realised that my Eye was just disappearing into the background where it showed my Log On Details with th Dark Blue background. I’ll put the eye back when I get sick and tired of the Pu$$y. 😀

Col

Ah this is the character from the alternative spy film

In reply to That’s no CAT it’s [b]SWMBO[/b] on a [b]BAD DAY![/b]

you know the James Blond series character Pussy Gun Lore. :p

I thought it was a photo of your white getting even with the neighbour’s dog.

I think the word you were seeking was muzzle not mussel. Mussel is a shell fish, muzzle in the working end of a gun barrel, amongst other things.

:^0

In reply to That’s no CAT it’s [b]SWMBO[/b] on a [b]BAD DAY![/b]

no comment, because I know better. (but you just brought a smile to my rough old mug)
BTW- please don’t tell your better half, I had a laugh about that, or you’ll never get back to Germany. :0

Compatability is the issue …

In reply to Windows Vista good or bad?

OKay, if Microsoft had drawn the line in the sand and said that all previous versions of their OS’s would not be compatible with Vista, just how many people would have stood-up and said “about time !”

I guess not many.

The only problem that I have with Vista is that it does not draw enough lines in the sand. Maybe it’s time to make a new start and say that the next version of Windows will only support “Vista and nothing else”

Ball your court

Arthur

My experience

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I have used practically all of Microsoft’s operating systems, starting from the very first version of MS-DOS, and my experience closely follows yours:

DOS 3.3: GOOD
DOS 4.2: BAD
DOS 5.0: GOOD
DOS 6.0: BAD
DOS 6.22: GOOD
Windows 3.0: BAD
Windows 3.1: GOOD
Windows 95: GOODish
Windows NT/98: GOOD
Windows 98 SE: GOOD
Windows ME: HELLA BAD
Windows 2000/XP: GOOD
Windows Vista: AW, HELL NAW

Windows XP came out in 2001. I stuck with Windows 98 SE until I was forced to upgrade to Windows XP Professional when I bought a new laptop, in late 2003. I will probably follow the same pattern in the case of Vista. I see no overriding reason to upgrade from WinXP at this time. Frankly, if it’s a choice between a forced upgrade to Vista or getting a Mac, I will get a Mac and still use my good old Compaq Presario with the WinXP Pro.

Can someone set me straight?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I thought NT came before 95. Didn’t they keep postponing 95 until 96? Maybe my marbles are mixed up?

thanks

paul

That was soooooo long ago

In reply to Can someone set me straight?

but I vaguely recollect 95, then NT 3.51 then 98 then NT 4 then 98SE and Win2K
.
I think. I know when I did my admin course on NT3.51 in 96 we were already on SP3 and I’d replaced all the WFW 3.11s by then.

You are correct. NT came first

In reply to Can someone set me straight?

But fewer people were using it, back then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT

I actually went to a presentation by Microsoft in the early 90s, when they were still working with IBM on OS/2. At that point they had NT, which was not yet out, OS/2 which was early days and lacked a lot of drivers, and Windows 3.1.

They split with IBM, promoted NT for business.

James

Thanks

In reply to You are correct. NT came first

I thought I remembered getting a couple of NT workstations in 95 before 95 was released. But as Tony said, That was so long ago.

Paul

Another OS! Not happy…

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I don’t know about everyone else, but I’m tired of changing os’s. I try to stick to the old saying, “if it aint broke, don’t fix!”. This is just opening another can of wip-ass. Granted! It looks nice, but if you want the nice look of vista. Just mode the look of your XP system and wa-la! You now have the vista look… I think microsoft should just sell upgrades to make it easy and painless for people who need to have it. Then again, it’s about the mighty dollar. You know what microsoft, cut me a check. I could use the money too…

Windows Vista

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I never put this together, but you are right. And from what I have been reading, Vista is going to continue the trend. lol

Lets fix this a little

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

DOS 3.0: GOOD (THIS WAS MY FIRST OS) CAN WE SAY INFOCOM GAMES HERE
DOS 3.3: GOOD HEY I CAN PLAY KINGS QUEST
DOS 4.0.BAD BUGGY but Hey we can Support 2GB HD NOW
DOS 4.01: GOOD BUGS FIXED
DOS 4.2: THERE WAS NOT A DOS 4.2
DOS 5.0: BAD Undelete issues
DOS 5.0A: GOOD Undelet Issue Fixed
DOS 6.0: THIS ONE WAS GOOD BAD
DOS 6.2: BETTER
DOS 6.21: FIX becasue of a lawsuit so this one is still good
DOS 6.22: HEY LOOK 3 GOOD ONES IN A ROW
Windows 1.0: HEY look we have a GUI NOT BAD BUT NOT SO GOOD
WINDOWS 2.0 Well we got a little better
Windows 386: Never used
Windows 286: Never figured out why to release this one after the 386 version.
Windows 3.0: BAD But we now have Multimedia Capabilities
Windows 3.1: BETTER
Windows 3.1 (WORKGROUP): Better WE HAVE NETWORKING
WINDOWS 3.11 (WORKGROUP)/NT3.5: Hey look 3 Decent ones in a row
Windows NT 3.51 Got Better
Windows 95/NT 4.0 Work Station: OK/Better but not prefect
WINDOWS CE. DECENT MS HANDHELD IS BORN
Windows NT/98: Better than 95 At least PNP Kinda Worked.
Windows 98 SE: GOOD
Windows ME: JUST PLAIN SUCKED THE BIG ONE
Windows 2000/XP: GOOD/BETTER
Windows Vista: ? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING 6 VERSION. I SAY PICK ONE AND LETS GO FOR IT

I think this helps clear a little bit of Confusion up. Still not a perfect list. But I do not have time to go into much more detail

Splitting Hairs

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

For the most part there might be a pattern, but then statistically, patterns can be created to show support for virtually any theory: Case in point…Win 98, crashed frequently and stymied users with the blue screen of death frequently. But, Win 98 SE was a polar opposite , of which I had very few problems with……….

I think your a little off

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

How can you lump NT and 98 together? They were nothing alike and didn’t even use the same Kernal. Also 2000 and XP together doesn’t sit well either. You have aranged them to fit your theory.

Missed some.

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

What about:
Dos 2.0
Dos 3.1
Windows 286
Windows 386
Windows 3.11
Windows NT 3.52
Windows 95 OSR2
And why are NT and 98 together as well as
2000 and XP? If you seperate them it throws off the mix 🙂

Is Vista Doomed?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

As far as I am concerned, Vista is doomed in my house!!!!! At least until November 1st. That is November 1st 2007!!!! I tried installing RC1 today, October 30th, 2006, and after a couple of hours of flailing around, It tried to start up and kept crashing. Seems that I had a version of ATI in Windows XP that wasn’t compatible with Vista. Instead of having a program console that can appear during install and allow you to do something about these problems, Vista just plunges on ahead and at the end of the line tells you that it couldn’t install properly. This is after telling you that it can be installed. I also had an ancient version of Symantec Norton Anti Virus hanging around, and that was enough to make it hang. Each time that it has you exit the install program, it makes you start back at square one.

Vista RC1 is not ready for prime time, and I doubt that anything that they release in the near future will be viable either. I have lost any enthusiasm for Vista that I may have had after this “Aborted” attempt to install it. What scares me is that any install package that is so inept may presage more horrors ahead

Hey Microsoft, can I get my $5.73 that I paid for this “abortion” refunded?

I will now “Happily” keep my “Solid” copy of Windows XP Professional in place for a significan period of time.

Congratulations jrp_mcp….

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

You’ve finally said what I have been wanting to say for years, especially about Macs and Linux (being a linux user myself.) I agree that Microsoft is forward thinking and is just out to make money but trying to produce some really good software as well. Being an Admin for over 10 years i can honestly say that i am so sick of these noobs that come into IT without a clue and start complaining. hats off to jrp_mcp. good show!

As for this article, it looks like someone took a break from playing solitair at work and produced this waste of braincells & bandwidth.

sorry thats jrs_mcp

In reply to Congratulations jrp_mcp….

…my apologies

Is Vista Doomed

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

NO ! Vista is Great!

I have used Vista RC1 build 5600 for a couple of months. And it is great. It is easier to use and backup than Windows XP. I will definitely upgrade when the final version comes out. The “aero” is not important ( I purchased a nvidia 6200 OC pci card just for the “aero”, and while aero is nice, it was not of great importance.) But the backup functions beat the “Paragon” backup utility I have (Paragon cost about $200.00 with original purchase and upgrades since 2004).

The only problem is some programs I have, do not work in Vista (Zone Alarm, Nero, etc.).

My evaluation copy of Vista does have a few crashes, but if the final version is at least as good as the evaluation? It is great.

Trend Anti virus Internet Security Suite for Vista works great. As does the Internet Explorer 7, Lavasoft’s adaware, and others.

If I get a crash the windows utility usually says the problem will be corrected in the final version.

Sincerely,
Ray B Davis Jr
http://www.valaw.org

Vista is Great?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed

I was most concerned with the quality of the install program. It is sure not as powerful as previous Windows install programs. After my install, Vista would not boot, and I had to revert to Windows XP Pro. I was a beta tester on Windows 95, and didn’t want to get into that mode again. I hope that you continue to have good luck with Vista, and I will try it again next year!!!

Incorrect…

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

NT & 98 are two OS systems
2000 & XP are two OS systems
Your argument now falls over.

You just grouped some together to get a pattern…

You missed some versions to make this work out.

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

IN addition to your list there were versions:
DOS 1.0 Good
DOS 2.1 Good
DOS 4.0 OK
DOS 6.1 Bad
DOS 6.2 Bad
Windows 3.11 Good
Win 95 was Good

So there is no linear thought or progression that points to a verdict for Vista. Besides, from my work with it through the beta cycle, it is a “must use” for any new PC purchase; unless your help desk folks are unable to take time to learn the new interface.

WIP

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Work In Progress

Sps to come…

Doomed to what? Competition?

In reply to WIP

Companies and home users especially may stay with XP or win2k longer than expected but where else is there to go? Sooner or later you’re going to Vista. If it turns out to be a technical/security disaster it’ll just take a bit longer.

New PC’s will ship with Vista as soon as its available. This will create demand in the workplace.

Where is the IT Director (with 1000+ pc’s) who’ll risk his career on anything but Windows?
Linux? Everybody from the ubergeeks to the cute new receptionist are Windows. Their careers rely on Windows! Ms. Cutie went to business school after HS to learn Windows. Not Linux!
Think;
Conversions? Training? Support? Recruiting? Reliability?

MS may suck. You may not like conforming. Linux may be better. But one big outage or an epidemic of little ones plus user dissatisfaction and that lawnmower you hear won’t be coming to cut the grass!

If you stay safe with Windows, you can dump on MS and Bill Gates, otherwise you get the blame.

Vista will fly! Lotsa techies working nights and weekends but they love it.
A lot easier to get a job supporting Windows with all its flavors than anything else.

I Bielve 98 was BAD instead of 95

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Hey

I have a different experience with Windows 95. I think tis better than 98, so I would not agree fully with this, since Windows 98 was BAD, instead of Windows 95 and Me never made it fully in the market as compared to other products.

So changes the tree:-
Win 95 – GOOD
Win NT – GOOD
Win 98 – BAD
ME – BAD
2000 – GOOD
XP – GOOD
Vista – ?

A simpler reason?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Perhaps the pattern is dependant on MS releasing a product before its ready (testing in live?) then the fixes come along under a (slightly) different name and hey presto it’s a good one!

Not Reliable

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

From my campus desk when I first used MS products in 1994, MS has never perfected any of its products. Every upgrade to Windows 3.11 or new product has always been an incomplete delivery!!!!

For any of you working in a Linux-aware office

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Show the screen shots of Vista 5xxx build (that were in another area of TR) to your coworkers that know about the latest Linux versions.

What happened when I did to 3 people I work with who know Linux too and I asked them “What does that look like to you?”?

What all 3 said:

“KDE”

Hahaha…Microsoft even ripped off the narrowed-height button layout of a KDE window and the no upper-left selector in their windows.

It’s amazing. Gates and his leeches can get away with anything.

I hope Vista fails. It’s what they deserve for filching the interface design off Linux and the hard (and often voluntary in the past 15 years) work of millions of people…in writing, testing, and using.

Hey people, an interesting aspect on Vista, that says it all

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I checked the dictionary definition of the word, and found this:

quote
American Heritage Dictionary
vis?ta (vst) n.
1. 1. A distant view or prospect, especially one seen through an opening, as between rows of buildings or trees.
2. An avenue or other passage affording such a view.

2. An awareness of a range of time, events, or subjects; a broad mental view: ?the deep and sweeping vistas these pioneering critics opened up? (Arthur C. Danto).

[Italian, from feminine past participle of vedere, to see, from Latin vidre. See weid- in Indo-European Roots.] vistaed (-td) adj.
end quote

A ‘distant view’ – yep that applies to MS Vista – it’s a distant view. How far are they beyond their original announced release date now?

An ‘avenue or passage affording a view’ – yeah well that’s all it’s doing, giving you a view of something else, it doesn’t actually do anything.

Not sure the ‘awareness of events’ etc is appropriate, but then it does say ‘awareness’ not ability to do anything.

In summary: MS Vista – a pretty looking thing that does nothing.

Oh, yes it will sell well, simply because the big companies like Dell, HP etc will put it on their systems and sell the, that way. And MS will pressure others to sell it.

Wouldn’t be nice if HP and Dell, loaded a version of Linux on all their systems and sold them like that, charging say $50 per system to load Linux and Open Office etc. They’d make a lot more profit per machine, than selling it with MS Vista on. Then we’d know how many people really wanted Vista, as they’d have to ask for it.

Another Lookup

In reply to Hey people, an interesting aspect on Vista, that says it all

VISTA, look up in my brain dictionary of previous M$ Os’s released.

V, iruses
I, ntrusions
S, pyware
T, rojans
A, dware, or ALL ABOVE

Just more of the same, different packaging only.

Are you 12?

In reply to Hey people, an interesting aspect on Vista, that says it all

nt

I suspect you may be speaking about yourself with that title

In reply to Are you 12?

I’m beginning to think that the online name you use, really describes you.. I notice you list yourself as a reseller, that wouldn’t happen to be a Windows reseller, would it?

I don’t know how long you’ve been involved in IT, but I’ve been in the industry since 1979 (doing technical work and repairs), and had an interest for several years prior to that. First started using computers by inputing data, and studying print outs, in 1970. Spent much of 1975 preparing data for, and punching punch cards. Used mainframes, mini-computers, micro-computers (now days we call them PCs), fixed all of these two, and written programs for commercial use. Used most of the MS software offerings, and all their variants of Windows since Win 3 – except Win 2003 server, and yes I’ve tried a Vista Beta, and found it to be crap.

Edited to expand on work since 1979

Sorry DE, I was replying to

In reply to I suspect you may be speaking about yourself with that title

The above post, not so much yours. I’m not real fond of the forum layout, but I’ll get used to it.

I just found it to be cutesy and unoriginal.
Your’s actually had depth and creativity.

I’ve been in IT a very short time, but it is just a peeve of mine when people whine about M$. Believe it or not, I don’t care for them either, and will thoroughly enjoy to see them lose defacto status.
I’m not a reseller either, I just clicked aimlessly when setting this up, as I don’t take things in cyberspace that seriously.
Life’s too short.

I was brought up to squeeze lemons(make lemonade), not smash grapes!(Wine…get it? WHine….ooooh, I am sooo clever) 😉
Just hug me Earnest….c’mon….group hug…

Usually, I hug females only, they’re much more squeezable

In reply to Sorry DE, I was replying to

and fun to hug. Best I can offer is a psychic hug, or is that psychotic, I’ve not been the same since they released me, again. :p

As to squeezing lemons against smashing grapes, well – to squeeze lemons you have to cut them in half and then use your hands. You end up with small knife nicks and lemon flavoured hands, phew. Smashing grapes, you dump them in the big bucket, usually a couple of metres (read several feet for you non metric types) across. Take off your shoes and socks, wash your feet, and walk around on them, squashing them with your feet and toes. This can be done while also reading a book, long mystery novels are good for this. When it’s all squashed, you get out, wash your feet again. the results have drained out the spout as your worked. Any stains on the feet are covered by the socks and shoes, until they wear off. You now have a choice to ferment or not to ferment.

For real fun, mix the two for lemon flavoured wine. Used for complaining with a puckered mouth and a high pitched voice.

edited to add – also to do the lemons, you have to be allowed to handle sharp knives. Most people who have been in the IT industry a long time, are forbidden from handling such objects.

Ya gotta stop this! You’re spoon-feeding me for great lines!

In reply to Sorry DE, I was replying to

Now there’s three posts re:DT, it’s a conspiracy, I tell ya!

Because you have little/no real experience, one could/should cut you a little slack, but, … BUT – since the beginning of this thread, (maybe the other one; I’m tracking only two??????) is Lil (newbies) and their attitudes, I gotta tell you: You’re setting yourself up for these jabs. You have stepped into the ring with the big guys and you’re running around swing your arms (flailing?) and you can’t help being in the line of fire. Your collection of bruises is most impressive.

When/if you’ve got a decade or two under your belt, you’ll realize we ain’t whining, we’re screamin’ mad! That’s why the strings “hate” and “M$” can be found all over like buckshot.

Secondly, you might do better to go back and change from “reseller” to something else instead of advertising to the world that you’re acting aimlessly, cuz that reflects on everything else you’ve posted; of course, from my perspective, that’s the best thing you could have said in your own defense, but it’s your pride – not mine – we’re trying to save here.

Kids make a great business out of a corner lemonade stand, but adults make a world-wide career of wine-making. Besides, lemonaide goes stale in a very short time, but wine gets better with age. (Hint)

Also, give hugs to those in your immediate family or throw your own telethon. You have a chance for a bright future, don’t shoot yourself in the foot as you run aimlessly to find it.

I must stop, I haven’t been germain for an hour and I’m probably upsetting the other readers with this.

And just exactly who do you think choses the names for MS Products?

In reply to Are you 12?

It’s the Marketing Department who do this and they are the ones who flog off the product. As the Name is an Important Marketing tool which many simply overlook.

If it wasn’t the slightest bit important it would have remained Longhorn and XP would have Yukon and so on back through all the different MS product range.

It is the people in marketing that chose the names that any product will be known by be it a MS product to a Aircraft and it’s important for sales to get the name right first time every time.

Only a 12 year old wouldn’t realise this.

Col

let me guess….12 year olds? ;)

In reply to And just exactly who do you think choses the names for MS Products?

😉

My money’s (not) on SuSe from M$/Novell…

In reply to Hey people, an interesting aspect on Vista, that says it all

Give ’em a year and I’ll just bet Dell and HP and all the other dependents of M$ will be selling SuSe, or “bundling” it with Vista.

… And why not??? Nobody must wait for it to be ready!

Then let the games begin for all those who believe that the only problem is that hackers go for the big guys. They can work overtime to blow holes in M$Jr.

I can’t see how that will prove that M$ is a messy OS intrinsically, though. Cool times ahead, huh?

Interesting concept

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Interesting concept, but I found all Windows products up until 98 to be worthless. 98 and XP are almost Mac-like, which is a good thing.

It has to do with

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Who they bought or can drive out. At first Bill was a bad programer but a great busness man, he could look at the new programs that came out. And see a way to use them with the GUI that IBM had made. He bought or made them part of his new company.
A few things worked great and allot did not. Win 3.1 for work groups was great but still a single process use all the CPU and you had to wait for it to finnish to do the next thing. And us Unix guys were all over it because there was no protection for handles or network protection.
But with Unix it was hard to get into the system, and yes you could get into it if you knew how.
Windows 95 was just a copy of 3.11 with more of a user interface. It still used the codes from 3.11.
Win NT for new technology, What a joke there is now millions of lines of code’s and MS keeps saying it is secure!
And now we come to Vista, and the kernal is protected and nobody can get to it.
I love the movie Hackers because it shows a group of kids/hackers geting in and removing a bad guy. Like GB who has spent more money or war then we need for schools.

Actually kernal protection is in X64 version of Vista only

In reply to It has to do with

Notice I said protection but you ABMer’s have put down MS for not having it. You can also in both x86/x64 run in limited account and install programs-IE is in protected mode(so no program can install unless you say it can).
The only way any OS(I don’t care which one you name) can be safe is to not put it on the internet.
Mike

So MS Windows finally has these protections that have

In reply to Actually kernal protection is in X64 version of Vista only

been in Unix, Linux, and Mac for many years – they’ve had some of these protections since before Windows. Talk about OLD technology, and MS is trying to tell us it’s all new. Even the new eye candy in Vista is tried and true stuff from the others.

You’re right about any connection to the Internet being a risk, but we’ve had 10 years of MS Windows being unsecured, with built it unlockable doorways, and they’ve been claiming it’s secure. Tell me, why should we believe them now?

They could have provided any of these measure any time during the last 10 years, but haven’t.

Yea it is new to them

In reply to So MS Windows finally has these protections that have

But wait I have seen MS start something-like IE(win95) for a few years I used Netscape until version 4 when MS beat NS and by v5 NS was left in the dust. MS will leave others in the dust on security and it won’it be long.
Mike
PS Vista was released to RTM

yeah

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

yes, i agree with you.

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Everything is Doomed from the start as one day it will cease to be. Everything…

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Everything is Doomed from the start as one day it will cease to be. Everything…

I Must agree with your posting …….

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I will NOT be using Vista I have a 12 month old system High end, purchased with VISTA in mind amd supprise supprise I still need to spend more $ to run the premium VISTA O/S.

Also quite a few of my applications need upgrades.

SORRY MICROSOFT NOT FOR ME.

This applies to Star Trek movies too.

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Ever notice that only the even-numbered ones are any good?

Kind of makes me feel vindicated now

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

Several years ago just after M$ announced that they where developing a new OS I answered a question [i]should I buy a computer now or wait for the New M$ offering?[/i] At the time I don’t think that even the Longhorn name had been released so it was very early in the development cycle.

I replied that this particular person should buy now and not wait the several years or so till the new OS became available. This resulted in a tirade of abuse directed at me because of the [b]Flippant[/b] way that I answered the question. At the time this particular person really thought that Vista would be available the next year when actually XP SP2 became available.

I just can never understand why so many people think that when M$ announces something they seem to think that means that it’s finished development and being Beta Tested and will be released in a few weeks. In that case I did provide the right answer as if he had of waited he would still be waiting for his Vista Loaded Computer. 😀

I can not help but wonder if this particular person still thinks that I’m Flippant when it comes to everything M$ that is announced but not supplied for several years. :^0

Col

sitting here giggling

In reply to Kind of makes me feel vindicated now

hahahaha The same people whom think windows is great ! And after I show them beat them about the head and shoulders with fact and they are still unable to move to Linux ( I show them Xandros Desktop OS Version 3 and add Code Weavers software and run all their windows software and I PAY LESS than them ) Why will they not change ? I do not know . . Maybe they like kissing Bill Gates A-$$ ? I have given up trying any more . . I laugh at them every PATCH Tuesday and all the fixes and patches for fixed things

BETA TESTERS

In reply to Kind of makes me feel vindicated now

If you bought any M$ product YOU ARE A BETA TESTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ALL M$ PRODUCTS are released as BETA and we pay them to test their crappy software

Gee, when did M$ Windows get as good as Beta test level

In reply to BETA TESTERS

I thought they only got that good just before they got replaced, and that was the reason for replacement.

Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

I have used most of them except ME and I would incline to support your views, as I haven’t used the earlier DOS versions, like 4.2, 5.0, 6.0 and 6.22. In fact I switched over to Windows version 3.1 as soon as it was available.

Not sure why so many knock ME …

In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

For those who were satisfied with 3.x, 95, 98, 98SE; it was really an improvement (sort of, anyway). It added some very nice features, not the least useful was the ability to have thumbnails of photos – just like 2K and XP. I enjoyed the extra things it would do over 98SE, which I used at work, but I was – as always – reluctant to “upgrade for free” to XP when it was offered for the machine I had purchased (HP XE-783; Celeron, 700mh 64mb RAM) and did not purchase the full XP-SP-2 package until this year when I needed to push it to NTFS. Of course, I pushed the RAM to full 512 long before the upgrade and added capture cards and other goodies. Otherwise, I’d have left it as ME.

It wasn’t great – nothing from M$ has been, but it was all that 98SE was with more, without the hassles of the new XP. Well, in fact, the XP/WGA hassles seem never-ending, but for its limited design and target, it was a very nice package.

I can’t figure out what all the “bad press” has been about in posts like this chain. The best answer I have for it is that those who “hated ME” simply had already gone NT and didn’t like the power loss, but ME wasn’t intended as a business solution as far as I know; just for the novitiate at home.

For what it did, it did it – and more – at least as well, or “better”than its predecessors. I wouldn’t recommend it, but I would be happy to show those who own(ed) it how best to use it.

[Author]

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