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Non-US Citizens *especially*, who would YOU vote for?

By TomSal ·
Ok this is sure to be a can of worms, judging by past threads on this board over politically charged issues -- but then that's partly why I'm asking it as well.

This question is for EVERYONE of course, however I'm *especially* interested in the views of non-US citizens or ok I'll say it bluntly...folks who really don't care about the US even.

There is only one condition - you can't say you'd vote for no one because that's a cop out and its too easy to get out of the discussion with that answer.

However anyone who is on the ballot for president is fair game -- this includes even Nader.

Please explain the reasons why.

I'm very much genuinely interested in the feedback on this one.

Thanks.

Tom

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The point is....

by mlayton In reply to The choice seems like a n ...

...as you keep saying the "failing government run schools" - I believe the government has some responsibility to ensure that their schools are NOT failing. I am a child of the public education system - and a child of public education teachers - and believe in the power of public education when the government stands up and takes responsibility and ensures that the schools don't have a history of failure and aren't "dismally run". There are better options then going to private schools, and one of them is to fix the system, and that starts with governmental education policies beyond just saying "go to another school, look you have a choice."

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Not to mention

by maecuff In reply to The point is....

There are many areas in this country (mine included) where there just aren't many 'private school' choices. The US is made up of more than the East and West coasts.

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See my message titled "I Agree"

by maxwell edison In reply to Not to mention

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Same answer.

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I agree

by maxwell edison In reply to The point is....

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You and I agree, we need to "fix the system".

I'm not suggesting, nor has President Bush suggested, the full and total abolition of the public school system. Not at all. Not even close. What I am suggesting, however, is that if you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've been getting - only more of it.

Sure, the public school system, in general, needs to be "fixed". (Disclaimer: There are some EXCELLENT public schools. Not all of them are "broken".)

But if we keep trying to fix the existing system by simply doing more and more of the same things, it won't get fixed.

Competition among schools doesn't necessarily mean competition among private schools, although that will certainly be part of the equation. Let them remain public, and let them compete for the public school dollar. If they get better, they will survive and prosper. If they don't get better, the customer (the parent and student) can take their "public education dollar" elsewhere.

And to the folks who say the "rich" (whoever they are) will benefit, I would say that maybe they will. Since they can afford to send their kids to private schools regardless, they would indeed get some of their school tax dollars returned to them in the form of vouchers. But after all, they paid the taxes for the schools, so why shouldn't they? But IN ADDITION, the kids of parents who aren't "rich" (whatever that is) will ALSO benefit by having more - and better - options for their kids' education. Why hurt the latter just because of some "class-envy" rhetoric? (Besides, I'd even support an income limit for those who can receive vouchers, so the bulk of the dollars would go to the less-fortunate families - and so would President Bush.)

When has a monopolistic system not resulted in a poorer product AND higher prices? And conversely, when has true competition in a free market not resulted in a better product AND lower prices?

Like I said, this one is a no-brainer, at least if you look at it rationally.

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Actually, vouchers aren't even an issue

by mlayton In reply to I agree

..for me. What is an issue for me is that "No Child Left Behind" (which yes, I realize both Kerry and Bush supported) does not do enough for arts, music, social studies, civics, or languages within our schools.By reducing the core curriculum and reducing funding for these, especially on an elementary level, students who could excel in school run the risk of losing interest. By reducing overall exposure to languages and the civics of society, we are continuing to narrow the view of the world, rather than promoting the extended global view which should be more prominent in today's interconnected society. I can already tell that my child learns well when we apply things with music. This gives me hope for his math skills - since they are interconnected in many ways - but if music instruction falls by the wayside, where does that leave him? Yay for reading, math, and science, but without a well-rounded education, it will be hard for our children to get ahead in the global society.

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Vouchers or school choice or whatever

by maxwell edison In reply to Actually, vouchers aren't ...

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It's all the same, when you get right down to it. If you place value in a particular core curriculum, you should certainly have the prerogative to send your kids to a school that places an emphasis on such a curriculum. You shouldn't be held hostage and have your school choice limited by some government bureaucrat or government program. What if I place value in a different kind of curriculum? Why should I be held hostage, and forced to accept someone else's "values"?

Moreover, you skipped over entirely the part of my message that suggested we already spend enough on the schools - $6,500 per student in my district alone. Half the private schools in my state have a tuition substantially lower than that, and their success rates are much higher.

Why is it that "throwing money" at an issue is always the right answer in the eyes of many people?

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If the government doesn't share my values in the core curriculum

by mlayton In reply to Vouchers or school choice ...

it's time for a change of government. I support a government that shares my values. I never said I support "throwing money". I do support responsible education, recognizing the value of the students as a whole - and school choice is not the same as initiating changes in the government sponsored core curriculum. It's not even close.

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mlayton - Therein lies the difference

by maxwell edison In reply to Vouchers or school choice ...

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You said that you "support a government that shares your values". I, on the other hand, support a government that respects individual values and individual liberties. And I must ask, on which basis was the U.S. government conceived and founded? I assure you, it was the latter.

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by mlayton In reply to Vouchers or school choice ...

A government that respects individual values should respect more than math, science, and reading, and support an individual's exploration of their entire being, leading to more well-rounded citizens, without the solution being that you can, but they won't provide it. That's just silly. The current educational policies do not provide for the citizens of the country and half-assed policies are not the answer.

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mlayton - It's obvious. . . .

by maxwell edison In reply to Vouchers or school choice ...

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....that you won't concede my points. And it's equally obvious that we are both forming our opinions and desired sulutions on a different set of core principles.

I don't want the government to tell me what my values should be, not in school, and not in life. If you want schools that create a citizenry that's consistent with the government's defined set of "values" and criteria, look to China. Now there's a great model.

In the meantime, this dead horse is beaten to death (intentional pun), so let's just agree to disagree. It's too bad, however, that you are trying to dictate to other parents how they should educate their kids. It's that kind of sentiment that causes me to spent 8 grand a year to send my son to a private school.

(I know, I said that many are below the $6,500 my district spends. But I chose the absolute best one. And being the kind of parent who accepts full and total responsibility for the child I brought into this world, it was the right decision.)

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