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  • #2295125

    PICTURES OF IRAQ. (Warning: Not for Anti-Amercans or Anti war supporters)

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    by garion11 ·

    Pictures that the media doesn’t show you. The REAL stories of Iraq.

    http://www.rock103.com/warpics/

    Please copy and paste this link and feel free to comment. Thanks :).

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    • #2690643

      Your pictures. . . .

      by maxwell edison ·

      In reply to PICTURES OF IRAQ. (Warning: Not for Anti-Amercans or Anti war supporters)

      .
      ….are worth a thousand words.

      Many thanks, and well done.

    • #2690641
      • #2690640

        Omg, no

        by garion11 ·

        In reply to This One Belongs on the Cover of Time Magazine

        They will NEVER publish that in TIME. My god, it might actually tell the TRUTH, or or *GASP!!!!* potray the military and the US involvement in Iraq in a positive light.

        • #2690635
          Avatar photo

          I for one don’t think that there was ever any doubt

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Omg, no

          That the general work done by the Troops would be well received in some quarters even most but it is actions that speak louder than words. Under Saddam they had running water, Electricity some form of hospital system and affordable food even though it may not have been of a 5 star standard they at least didn’t go hungry.

          Now however with Iraq virtually in ruins with most of its infrastructure smashed this isn’t the case. Granted that Insurgents have done a lot of damage far more than the COW ever did but it is results that these people want to see not promises.

          Unless the main in fracture can be fixed and guarded to keep it running there will only be continued discontent which is in the fanatics best interests so a lot more will have to be done before the majority of people will start to feel safe again {I know it is a relative term} but right at the moment they just do not know where their next meal is coming from or if they will have water tomorrow. It is in conditions like this that are currently happening in Iraq that brings about the Fanatical actions that are killing Americans in droves and this can not be argued with as the death toll mounts daily.

          Of course the actions of a few does a lot of harm particularly if these people are forced into confessing something that they haven’t done as this is exactly what happened under Saddam Hussein. What has been missed here is the other side of the coin where there are just as many people unhappy with what they now consider as American Occupation {even though there are other countries involved it is the Americans who are seen as the enemy for some reason.}

          While the pictures here show some of the good being done they fail to take into account the rest of the situation happening in Iraq. Also the old maxim is forgotten here “Bad News Sells Newspapers and improves Ratings” where as good news does nothing for the newspapers or networks.

          If you can remember Vietnam there where similar pictures as well but look at what happened there! Unless a reliable in fracture and some security can be restored to Iraq almost immediately the problems will only continue to snowball out of control.

          I asked this question some time ago and as yet have still not got an answer “When the COW rolled into Iraq and vanquished Saddam Hussein and the Bath Party they where seen as Liberators and welcome now they are being killed daily what exactly has happened to make the general population change their attitude to the American Troops?”

          I welcome any answers as I’m confused as to exactly why there are more troops being killed and maimed now that what there where during the main hostilities.

          Col

        • #2690633

          Geesh, Colin – where do you come up with this?

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to I for one don’t think that there was ever any doubt

          .
          You said, “however with Iraq virtually in ruins with most of its infrastructure smashed…”

          With all due respect, Colin, that’s a bunch of rubbish. Every aspect of life in Iraq, including water, electricity, schools, hospitals, and on and on is BETTER than before the fall of Saddam.

          There are only a few problem areas, while the rest of Iraq is being quietly made better than ever.

          Here’s an interesting quote:

          “To say that Iraq is being rebuilt is not true. Iraq is being built. There was no infrastructure
          before; we are doing it.”

          – Geraldo Rivera

          THE BUILDINGS THAT AREN’T BURNING by Geraldo Rivera:

          http://www.houston.indymedia.org/news/2003/11/18035_comment.php

          Colin, you should really open your eyes and open your mind. You’re much too smart to be duped into thinking only the worst.

        • #2690631

          He get it …

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to Geesh, Colin – where do you come up with this?

          …from his bitter, vile hatred of America and its power. I sincerely hope you don’t live in this country cause if I ever see you or meet you I will punch you.

        • #2690626

          Colin is really a decent guy

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to He get it …

          .
          But I think he wants to believe that things are going dismally in Iraq, so he only sees things that support what he wants to believe.

          I would suggest that the good/bad in Iraq is about a 90/10, 85/15 ratio. However, the news is just the opposite.

          (Don’t “punch” Colin. Actually, I’d love to meet the chap from the land down under some day.)

        • #2690625

          Yeah, I am getting sick and tired

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to Colin is really a decent guy

          of all these people, who have never been down there, yet make all these stupid and ignorant claims about Iraq even after they see the evidence. Which in turn leads me to believe that they really don’t give a damn about Iraq or anything, its just their vile hatred of US and its power. Sort of like why some people here hate Microsoft or the Yankees.

        • #2690576
          Avatar photo

          Now come on there is a GOOD

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Colin is really a decent guy

          Reason to dislike Microsoft not because it is American though even that’s doubtful now days as they develop so much software off shore. But the reason that all their software is failing to do what it is claimed to do is enough reason why so many people dislike Microsoft.

          Now I’m a Microsoft “Certified Partner” so I guess that tels you something about me but even I got really “Peeved Off” last week when I attempted to set up a new client with a “Volume License” only to find out that first I would have to buy OEM product for all the computers that I was building then pay a Volume License Fee {so they are effectively getting paid twice for the same thing} then a yearly subscription for Software Assurance so I could clone the HDD’s to save time instead of loading each computer individually. Now you have to admit that business practices like this tend to upset some people don’t you?

          Col

        • #2690618

          Actually

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to He get it …

          I think your post is one of the reasons we sometimes look bad. “I don’t like your views or your opinions..therefore, I am going to hurt you”. What the hell??

        • #2690575
          Avatar photo

          Instead of trying to read something that wasn’t intended

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to He get it …

          You could maybe attempt to answer the question.

          But honestly I did get a good laugh about {…from his bitter, vile hatred of America and its power.} You really do not understand the whole thing do you?

          As I said try to answer the question and leave personalities out of the equation.

          Col

        • #2690577
          Avatar photo

          Max I’m only going from comments from people

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Geesh, Colin – where do you come up with this?

          Who have been there since the end of Hostilities and that is what I’m being told directly by people that I trust not the media who are all doom and gloom. While the main city of Baghdad is somewhat more or less working the Hospitals certainly are not as I’m getting e-mails from friends there right now asking for medical supplies things like Panadol is just not available let alone the more complex things like what would be required for any form of major surgery. Did you know that rubber gloves for surgeons just are not available they are reusing these things as they have no alternative and they can only wash then occasionally in dirty water as there is no running water or electricity to sterilize them with or alcohol either. There are major cross infections occurring just because the basics are missing or not available.

          While I no longer do any medical work I still am friends with several people who work for the organization “Doctors without Boarders” and these people do quite a lot of good in the world so along with a few friends in the industry so to speak we are arranging items to be sent over there but unfortunately we will only be scratching the surface as it is impossible to supply everything that is required in just the disposables and as far as drugs of any kind go we are at the mercy of the Australian Government who refuse to allow these items to leave Australian shores. They for some reason seem to think that it will cost them money for these medicines so we are not allowed to ship them. Then there is the problem of shipping these items as well as it is virtually impossible to get a carrier to transport anything into Iraq.

          Currently we have 3 containers ready to go with no one willing to ship them in anything like a direct route that will reach there in under several months. These containers will be off loaded at several different ports and then shipped on if and when ships become available so we have no definite time frame for their arrival and there is a Premium Price involved in shipping these as well. SO we are paying top dollar and getting a substandard service with no known delivery time.

          Col

        • #2690570

          Wow, is it really that bad now?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Geesh, Colin – where do you come up with this?

          For someone who has always prided himself in the accuracy of his findings and the integrity of his sources, I had to have a giggle at your quotes being attributed to Geraldo. What a slice!

          Anyhow I’m not going to take this anywhere, other than personally I just see it as about effective as Bush’s plastic turkey photo shoot, or landing on the carrier. YAY! Whatever, there’s a war going on too.

        • #2690569

          Wow, is it really that bad now?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Geesh, Colin – where do you come up with this?

          For someone who has always prided himself in the accuracy of his findings and the integrity of his sources, I had to have a giggle at your quotes being attributed to Geraldo. What a slice!

          Anyhow I’m not going to take this anywhere, other than personally I just see it as about effective as Bush’s plastic turkey photo shoot, or landing on the carrier. YAY! Whatever, there’s a war going on too.

        • #2690629

          Here ya’ go

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to I for one don’t think that there was ever any doubt

          .
          “When we see the images of war and terror on the TV screen, it’s hard to believe that behind all of this, many Iraqis are leading normal lives and going about their business.”

          – Christoph Sahm, director of Oxford Research International

          More Iraqis Want Democracy:

          http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-iraqi-attitudes,0,7660217,print.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines

          or tiny

          http://tinyurl.com/2gafz

        • #2690627

          Here’s more – Thank You Australia

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to I for one don’t think that there was ever any doubt

          .
          CARE implements a broad range of projects in the water and sanitation sector in Iraq, including emergency repairs and long-term rehabilitation of infrastructure, supply and installation of generators and technical support programs. Our engineers have rehabilitated major water and sewage treatment plants, installed hundreds of kilometers of water networks, and made emergency repairs to water and sanitation systems in hospitals and health centers. Since the 2003 conflict, CARE’s projects in this sector have improved the quantity and quality of water provided to more than 7.3 million residents.

          CARE’s health programme, led by a group of Iraqi doctors with long-term experience in the health sector in Iraq, includes infrastructure rehabilitation, health education and distribution activities. These projects have assisted more than 4.2 million Iraqis post-conflict and are integrated with activities in the water and sanitation sector to ensure that essential services are maintained at an adequate standard.

          Since the 2003 conflict, CARE has rehabilitated more than 150 health centers and 40 hospitals. Hygiene and cleaning materials, blankets, supplementary food, insulin, I.V. sets and oxygen regulators, as well as other emergency medical supplies and equipment have been delivered to health facilities. CARE is working to supply laboratory equipment and supplies to reinstate Iraq’s laboratory capacity and sentinel disease surveillance system, which will ultimately benefit the entire population of the country.

          CARE Australia – the Australian face of overseas aid

        • #2690610

          Thanks Max

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Here’s more – Thank You Australia

          I guess Australia has been especially blessed in its involvement in Iraq. I understand that Australian SAS soldiers were the first to exchange fire with Iraqi soldiers and, God willing, we have yet to suffer a military casualty.

    • #2690609

      I find your qualifying statement offensive …

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to PICTURES OF IRAQ. (Warning: Not for Anti-Amercans or Anti war supporters)

      ” (Warning: Not for Anti-Americans or Anti war supporters)”

      Do you seriously believe that those who have seen the bad side of the story have closed minds, and do not want to acknowledge the positive events that are occurring simultaneously?

      Bias works two ways. Perhaps you are just as biased in your viewpoint as are those whom you condemn.

      • #2690606

        Yes – Most are closed minded

        by jimhm ·

        In reply to I find your qualifying statement offensive …

        Yes – gee most are so closed minded – gee when they think that a man forced to wear womens panties on his face is worse than beheading a young man. Makes me believe they would support pictures showing americans doing good – Gee why didn’t you say they were staged.

        Gee – when these Anti-American media folks and posters continue to bring up the tourcher that Iraqis sufferred in prison. But don’t say anything about burnt bodies hung off bridges while these Islmic (religon of peace) dance for joy.

        Gee – and you think we would say you all would understand and support those picture. Gee where was the post “Staged” – that the majority of military are doing an excellent job, and thats over 100,000 men and women!

        And to say warning not for Anti-American folks is offensive to you – Get a life – to freeking bad.

        Walk a mile in solders shoes then – speak – have someone shot at you – then speak – I’ve been there – These liberals are tring to turn this into another Vietnam – same vile Bull that they tossed at us coming back from Vietnam – they didn’t know how we helped thousands – they read stories of solders killing kids… they didn’t print the part where the kid had Granades taped to his hands by the VC – or was as they call them today sucided bomober – Na – why print the truth – when lies and liberal BS – gets you more milage.

        Didn’t print the horrors the american POW’s lived with daily – Na why print the truth. Didn’t print or report the horrors that the VC did to our men – cutting off parts of their bodies for payment! Na – Why print the truth. But let an American (5 or 6) in Mi’li and oh my god – or in the prison in Iraqi the liberal press is over it like stink on dog poop.

        Yea – what you see in those photos is the truth – what you read in the liberal media are the lies..

        • #2690573
          Avatar photo

          Jim if you have really “Walked a Mile in a Solders Shoes”

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Yes – Most are closed minded

          You should know that military intervention only works when there are set objectives for the military to achieve and they are given a free hand to use what is available to achieve this end. The trouble with Vietnam was that these people where sent in to fight a war without the full support of the Government so they effectively had at least one hand tied behind their back and where bound to lose.

          Now about what is going on in Iraq right now there is a very definite credibility problem that the US and others forces are facing and that is on the one hand they are supposed to be a liberating force who will only bring good but on the other hand they are ignoring the rules of war example the Gevenia Convention. Granted the other side doesn’t follow these but aren’t we supposed to be better than these savages? If we lower our standards to their level we are no better than what we are attempting to destroy and will do as much damage as those that we are attempting to vanquish.

          Col

        • #2691137

          Server my 365 and a wake-up in Vietnam

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to Jim if you have really “Walked a Mile in a Solders Shoes”

          How about you ?

        • #2691106
          Avatar photo

          Great then you should be able to explain

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Server my 365 and a wake-up in Vietnam

          Exactly it is an abuse of our troops to place them in a position like this!

          With something like 20 – 30 years to think on your service in Nam you should by now know exactly how it is that any military unit can not function without specific goals and with limited weapons available. After all you where there and have first hand knowledge of exactly what went wrong don’t you? Perhaps you can explain exactly it is nothing short of scandalous the way our troops are thought to be able to function and under the type of circumstances where there is no set enemy, no land to be captured and continually fighting a rear guard action to keep their backs clear.

          There is a common misconception that the military can fix anything which they clearly can not as they are not trained for a lot of the things that they are expected to perform. You can also attempt to explain exactly why it is an impossible position to be in where you do not have a clear cut enemy and exactly how the current military are not any kind of Police Force as that isn’t what they where started for or trained for either.

          What is currently happening in Iraq is this exact position and while there is no doubt that the majority of our troops are trying their best they are in an impossible position as anyone who even looks sideways that them is a potential enemy.

          Perhaps you could attempt to explain just how frustrating this type of situation actually is. After all you do have first hand experience and who is better qualified to tell it the way it is?

          Col

        • #2691334

          The Nam was different but –

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to Great then you should be able to explain

          First ? I will not disagree with you that after WWII the rules and role of the Military has changed from a fighting force to add Police force, Political enforcement, and many other things that during Nam we were not ready or trained for. But over the years the offices have been trained, and are doing the best they can.

          But; I will assume you never server in the US Military (please correct me if I am wrong) ? but even back during Vietnam, every solider had a moral and military responsibility to disobey an unlawful order. IE ? Fire at civilians or non-combatants, touch villages and homes in Zippo raids, or other things and report those to the upper military power. Now, if anything happened that was the superior officers problem. You reported it, and started it up the chain of command. If these events occurred it is not only the responsibility of the commanding officer of that platoon or command, but of each individual officers and enlisted man that failed to stop or report said abuses. There is no passing the Buck from the front line ? they are responsible from the lowest to the squad, platoon officers.

          That was drilled into each service man (at least in the Navy) that went through boot camp and OCS. ?Unlawful orders did not need to be obeyed, and you must report them to command.? ? of course you would still be hauled up to a captains mass to explain, why you refused to carry out that order. So it is how big is your integrity?

          Kerry integrity isn?t very high ? he did Zippo raids ? he fired at civilians and non-combatants. (Had to toss that in)

          So yes some things have changed from the Nam ? but it appears that some of our military (these 7) are trying to save their ass buy pointing fingers. Wrong ? they were responsible to report those events and not follow any orders that were unlawful.

          Understand ? there are over 100,000 troops and these are but 7 ? Kerry and his guys in the Nam, did the same thing and now he blames his superiors ? Kerry was the leader ? he was responsible to report and not obey the unlawful order ?

          KERRY IS A DISGRACE TO THE US NAVY ? HE IS A COWARD WITH OUT HONOR WITHOUT CODE ?

        • #2691305
          Avatar photo

          While I totally agree with your sediments

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to The Nam was different but –

          It is an unfortunate fact that it only takes one rotten apple to spoil the whole bunch and make life tougher for everyone else.

          Now in Iraq there is a fairly strong “Anti American” mentality being adopted more and more by the moderate Muslims that the actions of a few make it all that much harder for the majority of the rest of the troops involved. Also with their “Strict Islamic Laws” what is seen by us as justifiable punishment is seem by people over there as nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

          Remember they still chop off peoples hands for stealing and there where public hangings for more severe crimes. Also there is still the mentality of “Honor Killings of unmarried females if it is thought that they are no longer virgins” this most often happens by members of their own family to save face so while or punishments might seem tough to us they are a walk in the park for people over there.

          Anyway what I was trying to get across was that what is currently happening in Iraq is somewhat similar to Nam where there are no uniformed enemy and there remains the possibility of attack from all quarters so everyone is a bit on edge all the time. Honestly its probably worse than in Nam as there are no real enemy but only citizens of Iraq and the insurgents to confront who are only as successful as they are by mingling in with the crowd and attacking when an opportunity presents itself then just disappearing back into the crowd again. This is an almost impossible position to face as you are no doubt well aware of.

          Actually all I ever wanted you to point out was just what difficulties where being faced by the troops stationed over there. I in no way support what the other side is doing in any of their attacks on the troops let alone on civilians who they see as easy targets. But the longer that they can keep the necessary infrastructure in some form of Chaos the more likely it is that they will get more and more followers to support their cause so it is effectively a “War of Attrition” where the other side has no concept of the value of human life and are willing to throw masses of people to their deaths to achieve their own ends.

          The COW on the other hand wants to save lives and values human life so they have a problem right from the start so honestly they can ill afford any scandal that can be used by the religious fanatics to bolster their cause and here the worst thing that can happen to a Muslim male is to be degraded by a female. If it was an Iraq female who attempted to do something like what has happened they would be dead in very short order but with female American troops involved it only goes to make it that much harder to win the hearts and minds of the general population so for the sake of keeping the peace things like what have been reported should never happen as they only antagonizes the local population more than they already are.

          Col

        • #2691228

          I can totally appreciate that

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The Nam was different but –

          During Nam there were also many Mercs who were like the gunmen of the wild west.

          A VERY close friend of mine (who recently passed, mey he rest in peace) was a former Merc. Third degree blackbelt and all that nasty high end killer soldier stuff, kill you with your own eyelash or whatever.

          He spoke of HORROR stories as they were often sent to scout out these areas on foot that were jungle covered and unable to be viewed from th air. They would go on overnight raids of these hidden camps, MANY civilian, and the atroctious ways they broke military laws was a nightly issue. They were never given INSTRUCTIONS by commanders as they were pretty much left to their own, just given a target to seek out and “i’ll see you tomorrow” kind of idea.

          They were allowed to run free and do whatever they wanted to, upon returning to base they would not speak to other soldiers about what had occurred and would only give recon reports as needed. The rest was never asked and never brought up again. It was THIS mentality that he said flowed down the ranks to the lower ranking soldiers and other platoons, and was also condoned and supported as these Mercs were looked up to by other soldiers and held with high esteem.

          Yes, he killed innocent women and children, burned family homes ect. and some stories he wouldn’t share at all, even with his closest freidns, he took much of went on in Nam to the grave with him.

          So as much as I completely agree that MOST soldiers were trained as you say to report any unjustified and illegal actions if they were ‘ordered to break the rules’ so to speak, their were others who committed MANY war crimes and other crimes on humanity and were silently praised for their work and NEVER questioned or asked for a detailed report, just simple recon reports of what was found. He said a lot of unjustified deaths and burned up villages (Zippo raids) were not reported, and just put down as ‘not located.’

        • #2692029

          An old say over there was

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to Server my 365 and a wake-up in Vietnam

          An old sayin over there was – “What Happens in the Bush stays in the Bush” (not GW). If your commanding officer believed that – and you reported something – good chance of getting FRAGed (Killed by freindly fire) – it was up to the solder to report it – but for the command structure to back it. Kerry was part of that command structure! –

      • #2690601

        Yes

        by garion11 ·

        In reply to I find your qualifying statement offensive …

        In fact I will go on record as to state that those people have a completely closed mind and nothing and I mean nothing (even in 20 years when Iraq and hopefully some more of the neighboring Arab states are full fledged democracies) will ever change their mind and their feeling of hatred and jealousy of US power and stature until we are not the world’s #1 power anymore. Then whoever steps onto that stage will take USA’s place (who hopefully will be as restraining as US is and was in controlling their power) and all the jealousy and hatred will be directed towards them.

        They will find anyway, ANYWAY (whether they HAVe to make up stories, be negative, come up with conspiracy theories)to blame America first and foremost, in every situation that concerns the world. I am utterly shocked that the SARS virus event, Chechenya bombings, India and Pakistan rivalry, death of cockroaches in Iraq isn’t blamed on America.

        So hence I say screw the world’s opinion, they hate us anyway!!!(unless America has a president that can curb US’s power and might with his policies). As Bush stated, I will not ask the world’s permission to protect America and its interests. And damn right he was.

        So if you are offended just by my title, then you shouldn’t go out into the world at all. Stay home with your carebears!

        • #2690589

          Hate Speech

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Yes

          In the few postings I have seen from you, there has been more vile hatred than from any other peer that I can recall.

          Before you run off on another spiteful tangent, let me explain some of my views.

          Prior to the start of the Iraq war, I was opposed to President Bush taking military action at that time.

          Now that we have taken over Iraq, we NEED to stay until the mission is complete.
          At a minimum, we cannot leave until Iraq has a functioning government, police force, and army.

          While the Bush administration (and war hawks) credit the invasion of Iraq with reducing global terrorism, the more likely reality is that the World Trade Center attack served as a wake-up call to governments around the world.
          The increased vigilance of police and intelligence groups is what has reduced terror attacks.

          I fear that the murder of Mr Berg is the beginning of a new wave of 1 on 1 terrorism.

          I find it interesting that so many conservatives consider the US press to be grossly liberal.

          The majority of news organizations in the US are run by conservative businessmen.
          The network owners and managers have “1” goal for the news programs. RATINGS!!!!!
          In the US news organizations ratings are FAR more important than TRUTH. Or, balance.
          Whether you like it or not, bad news from Iraq generates higher ratings then good news.

          As a point of fact, I here many more positive stories about our actions in Iraq from NPR news than from any other news source.
          NPR is the exception to the rule of US news organizations.
          Their goal is to provide balanced accurate coverage of the news.
          (Yes, I agree that most of the NPR commentators lean to the left.)

          The “reporting” that I have heard from Rush Limbaugh is some of the most 1 sided and biased reporting I have ever heard. His show is designed to rile the conservative spirit. in the name of ratings.
          I have yet to hear Rush report more than half of any story.

          Also, we DO need to renew our efforts to build coalitions with the rest of the world.
          The only way to significantly reduce the ranks of the terrorists is to have strong ties with ALL of the world governments.

          So, calm down and allow some reasoned thought to enter your mind.
          Just because someone is opposed to the war in Iraq does not make them anti-American.
          Nor does blindly supporting our President make one a patriot.

          Chas

        • #2690586

          Come on, Chas – be real – don’t insult

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Hate Speech

          .
          You make such great points, but then ruin it by saying something like, “Nor does blindly supporting our President make one a patriot.”

          Blindly??????

          Blindly??????

          Why must you (and others) always interject these inaccurate and insulting adjectives in an attempt to discredit.

          Blindly??????

          Blindly??????

          I assume that you think that I also “blindly” follow President Bush?

          Blindly??????

          Blindly??????

          Can’t a person agree without being accused of doing it “blindly”?

          Blindly??????

          Blindly??????

          For Pete’s sake, some of us do have minds, you know. And there’s nothing “blind” about it.

          Blindly??????

          Blindly??????

          Just because some people see things differently than you dosen’t mean we do it blindly.

          Blindly??????

          Blindly??????

          My eyes are wide open, thank you very much.

          (Yes, it does get me POed)

        • #2690546

          A Contrast

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Come on, Chas – be real – don’t insult

          Max,

          My last comment in the post was meant to be a contrast.

          It looks like you read it as some have read your humorous posts.

          My point is that a person who is opposed to the Iraq war, and / or policies of the present President (at any time) can be more of a Patriot than a person who follows the lead of the President without question.

          I know that you come to your conclusions from researching information on the topic.

          I get the impression that many of the other citizens who fully support the war in Iraq and President Bush do so not from reasoned research, but because they are happy that the US Armed Forces are out kicking arse.

          I consider many of these people to be “fair weather” Patriots.
          Much like the sports fans that only come out and support the local team when they are winning.

          Chas

        • #2690512

          Chas – thanks for the reply

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to A Contrast

          .
          Do you know how often people like me are accused of “blindly” following….?

          It’s been done directly and indirectly here at TR, and it’s common in editorials and opinion pieces that generalize about people who support the Iraq war effort. It’s not accurate, and I’m growing tired of it. However, I certainly accept your explanation, and I’m sure it wasn’t intended to offend.

          On your Iraq prediction (reply to a different message) and democracy “seed planting”, while I understand your sentiments, I don’t necessarily agree. Japan is an example of a nation (and a culture) that transformed inself (with a little prodding) from an Emperor ruled nation, one deep in spirituality and tradition, to one of the most successful free-market democracies in the world. The same thing could certainly happen in Iraq, and I think it will. After all, the alternative is more of the same upheaval that’s plagued the region for hundreds (or thousands) of years, and the entire globe over the past fifty or more.

          I believe it will succeed because it must succeed. And from my estimation, many, if not most, of the people against this effort, have a vested interest in failure. I have to wonder why that isn’t as clear to others as it is to me.

          Nonetheless, I apologize if it sounded like I was spouting off at you. It wasn’t at you, per se, but just some spouting in general.

        • #2690500

          Hope

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Chas – thanks for the reply

          Don’t get me wrong Max,

          I hope that democracy does take hold in Iraq.

          I just don’t believe that the average US citizen is aware of just what, and how long of an effort will be required on our part to allow democracy to take hold.

          I’m also not sure that the Iraqi people WANT a democracy strongly enough to work for it.

          With both the religious leaders in Iraq, and the leaders of neighboring countries being opposed to an open democracy in Iraq, I am not as optimistic as you that a stable democracy will take root.

          Time will tell.

          Chas

        • #2691386

          Hmmmm…

          by voldar ·

          In reply to Chas – thanks for the reply

          Although I agree with all you say about Japan, I don’t think it is a good example regarding Iraq. I know that I may sound odd, but I don’t think that “the democracy” we “know” is the best for Iraq or any other countries in the world. What is good for a country is not good for an other. I am 100% with you when you say (you did not said in fact, but you thought about) that some guiding rules should be established, but I think here is where we have to stop.
          From my life experience, when you force someone to do something his not YET prepared to do, he will very soon become the fervent opposant of your ideas. This is something we all have to learn sooner or later.
          Democracy developed in Europe for 2000 years (starting in Greece), how can you imagine you can shift that onto something very different (who has also 2000 or more long history)? And to do it in 1 to 2 years!! Never will be accomplished. Remember one thing – Japan, before 1900 was very little know to European or Americans. And they had 50 years to build and to create their society (with a large help from US and European countries), their glamorous and very competitive society.
          But you have to remember one thing also – they REALLY WANTED TO CHANGE! And they did that! I worked with Japanese, and even now, the “boss” is “God” for almost every working people from there. There is no shame or something to blame, it is just the fact, and I understand very well this fact (the principle of ?samurai? (to serve your master) is still there, and I am glad for them they still have it). Have you ever heard about a work-strike demanding the “boss” for working for more time without pay? No, only in Japan!
          What I am trying to say is that even though you may think that Japan is a democracy, in fact it is not the American democracy, but it is what suits best “its needs”, its visions of democracy.
          This is why I say that Iraq will surely transform into a “democracy”, but it will be “its own democracy”. As it is France or Sweden – both democratic countries, but in the same time so different. The most important thing are the only few rules (the BASIC RULES I like to call them) that should guide the society, the rest, it is up to each society apart to establish. Romania, Bulgaria and any other eastern European country (I will never understand why they call them “eastern” when they are in fact in the center of Europe) developed themselves towards democracy in the last 14 years, and they have a lot more to accomplished, (and it is not 1 or 2 years I am talking about), but when rules exist, the rest will come sooner or later, that’s without any doubt.
          So, my point here is: don’t expect to see democracy in Iraq in the next 5 years or even 10 years, this is a process that takes longer. But sooner or later, a positive change will be noticed. And THAT, I will salute!

        • #2691227

          Well said Vlad

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Chas – thanks for the reply

          That was a great and very logical response. Points I have often thought of before. You cannot make a country “Americanized” (or Canadianized or any other ‘ized’) by chopice unless that’s exactly what they want. A mirror is impossible it cannot be done and is futile to even attempt. These poeple will develop their OWN government and through a democratic system will vote in exactly HOW their government will be run. Do NOT expect it to be anything like American democracy, it can’t be. It will be a democratic SYSTEM, but not in the sense that YOU may think a democracy is operated.

        • #2691877

          I was gonna stay away from this one

          by mallardtooxx ·

          In reply to A Contrast

          Chas,
          I cannot help but chime in on this sub-thread, it is too important not to. I think you are casting a pejorative light on the American people with your last two posts. While I know there are many viewpoints that are in existence here I think there is one that is being ignored; we as a country, no matter race, creed, or religion need to remember how we came to be in this position in the first place. It is not a matter of whether or not there are fair weather patriots amongst us, nor is it a matter of hawks vs. doves; it is a matter of to say you support the troops means you support the troops. America was founded on the blood of every generation who has lived here, if not for those people you and I and max would not enjoy the freedoms that we do today. I am not saying that this issue is one that anyone person can resolve, nor am I saying that either party has the 100% complete approach but to say that people are blindly following a president, or to compare the majority of the population to sports fans is saying the American people as a whole are just plain stupid.
          I myself am offended at that statement, as a matter of fact I am surprised you would post as much as you have here. I have and still do respect your opinion in this forum, however I really think you need to look inward here and see if it is the populace that is wrong. I am not picking any kind of fight but really this is something that has irked me, not just from you, but also from many people here and has driven me away from these types of conversations both here and in the real world. It is not a matter of right or wrong anymore, it is not a matter of whether someone supports the president (blindly or otherwise) it is a matter of seeing the flag draped coffins and knowing that there were many before, and there will be many after, who loved this country, and her people, enough to pay a price most people are not willing to pay.
          I guess what I am trying to say is this; the time for action never passes, it only passes you by. I for one am glad there are people alive today who can make the tough decisions and people who can sacrifice more than I so I can go to bed at night knowing the only danger I face is my drive to work in the morning. If that makes me a fair weather patriot, or a blind follower so be it; if it keeps my children and my wife safe from the fate that the world community faces I am willing to be called names.

          -duck

        • #2691725

          Restatement

          by thechas ·

          In reply to I was gonna stay away from this one

          Duck,

          I understand and respect your position and comments.

          As I stated to Max, my comment was meant to contrast the fact that not everyone who is opposed to the war is anti-American.
          Nor is everyone who supports the war a patriot.

          I do believe that one can support out troops without supporting the war in Iraq.
          One of my co-workers is a case in point.
          He has 2 sons who are Marines that have served in Iraq.
          They have his full unquestioning support.
          However, he is one of the staunchest opponents of this war that I know.
          While he is concerned about the health and wellbeing of his sons, he is convinced that we invaded Iraq at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons.
          He is firmly convinced that every action of the Bush administration is an attempt to manipulate the US population.

          Let me restate my last 2 comments from the above post:

          Just because someone is opposed to the war in Iraq, they are not necessarily anti-American.

          Just because someone follows the President without question, they are not automatically a patriot.

          I have seen many people who did not support President Bush until after he started deploying our armed forces around the world, and the troops won a few battles.
          Many of these people never voiced support for previous Presidents.
          These people are NOT willing to make a personal sacrifice for the cause of freedom.
          They do like the fact that our troops are kicking butt.
          If not “fair weather patriots” what would you call them?

          The vocal active war protesters are making a personal sacrifice for the cause of freedom.
          The reactions to the terror attacks of 9/11 have resulted in the most restrictions on freedom in the US since World War 2.

          I do NOT believe that everyone (or even the majority) of people who support the President and the war do so blindly.

          If you evaluate the information, and make an informed choice to support the President and the war, you are not “blindly” following.

          Chas

        • #2691591

          Wrong use of Patriot

          by thechas ·

          In reply to I was gonna stay away from this one

          Duck,

          As I pondered your comments, I came to the conclusion that there is an error in the use of Patriots to describe the group of people I am referring to.

          The use of the term Patriot by these fair weather supports of US policy belittles the sacrifices of the true Patriots.

          I will start calling this group of wanna-bies by another term.
          “Flag wavers” comes to mind.

          Does that sound too offensive?

          Chas

        • #2690584

          What allies?

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to Hate Speech

          I thought the allies were with us? Hmm..Australia, Portugal, England, Japan, Kuwait, Canada, Saudi Arabia (they are all helping in rebuilding Iraq). OOOOOH!!!!, you mean, France and Germany? OH, I thought there would be so many more countries that refused to help us (the ones that CAN anyway).

        • #2690568
          Avatar photo

          You conveniently left out Spain

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to What allies?

          Perhaps you just don’t want to be reminded what happened there and how that act of terrorism lead to a change in Government.

          Or maybe it just slipped your mind as that didn’t happen on American soil.

          Col

        • #2690564

          Oh no,

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to You conveniently left out Spain

          Spain did its part and left. The change of government was because its citizens became scared of the fundamentalists and voted off the ruling party to appease the terrorists. They didn’t want to fight. I am not sure if American wants an ally whose a coward. I feel sorry for its citizens. They have no pride or honor. Almost remind me of the French.

          Isn’t that what you are waiting for? Another attack on American soil? So you greedily hope that Bush gets voted out or something?? and also point out and say WE TOLD YOU SO! I always wonder what happens if your country gets an attack like 9/11. Will your countrymen rise and meet the challange? or whimper in cowardness like Spain?

        • #2690559
          Avatar photo

          Grow up

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Oh no,

          What happened in Spain is a lot more complicated that the simplistic way you are trying to push it. First they became a target because of their involvement in Iraq, Secondly the then ruling Government attempted to lie to its citizens.

          The general population of Spain has been in a state of civil war for years so they can hardly be called cowards but it was the outrage that was felt by the majority of citizens against their ruling party trying to offset the blame for that attack that caused the change in government as prior to that incident the then ruling Party look as if they would be returned to power. It was only the attempt to place the blame for the attack on to a different organization that lead to their being voted out of office. If the then Government had just said we don’t as yet know who is responsible quite likely there would have been a very different outcome.

          However when a Government is caught attempting to lie to its citizens they quite naturally lose any faith that they previously had in the Government. I can remember the exact same thing happening in America when the “Watergate Affair” was exposed do you remember that one?

          Col

        • #2691063

          Quite the generalist aren’t you

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Oh no,

          Well you lumped SPAIN in as cowards, therefore all people FROM SPain are cowards.

          Then you added France, ergo all French citizens are cowards.

          I assume Canadians are also cowards.

          The British are mighty and tough all of a sudden? Isn’t this coming from the same country where MANY of the citizens think they won WWII and saved England? Would the British not also be cowards according to your reasoning?

          Anyone who doesn’t support teh US is a coward.

          Why would you even require support if you are the only might in the world?

          Perhaps others are reluctant to fight beside you due to your constant issues with killing your own or allies by “friendly fire”, nice word to explain you F****d up AGAIN.

          Get off your soapbox and at least have a valid point, you make somany accusations with VERY little logical defense for your own statements, If people aren’t agreeing with you, they are just wrong. How about some compelling reason for someone to agree with you instead?

          Support your own comments instead of shooting down others as America haters, it’s people EXACTLY like yourself that make other people HATE America, not the average citizens with a sense of reason.

          YOUR mentality is what has hurt America, not those who are against the US decisions.

          So let out your deep breath and relax. We don’t need to act like a peacock in 2004.

          Listen instead, it may help you understand WHAT other people are against so that you can be more accurate in your accusations against them, if you can’t support your own comments that is.

        • #2691136

          Waaaa Waaa – Liberal – “Hate Speech” shouldn’t be permitted

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to Hate Speech

          Did you ever hear of the First Adm – There Chas – Freedom of Speech – Now you liberals want to classify things you don’t like to hear as “Hate Speech” and ban it – Against the First Adm.

          Liberals speek from two ends of their bodies – and how do you know a Liberal is lieing – his mouth or arss is moving … or talking …

          Waaa – Waaa – Waaa – Hate Speech – Waaa – I am A Liberal you can’t say that – Waaa Waaa … GET A LIFE!

        • #2691129

          you know…

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Waaaa Waaa – Liberal – “Hate Speech” shouldn’t be permitted

          It seems that a common theme from you is name calling. My 6 year old sounds more mature than you. Damn Republicans..always having to resort to name calling when they can’t come up with something worthwhile to say.

        • #2691125

          Attack – Got to classify somehow

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to you know…

          Hey we all got to classify people somehow – whether they be Liberals, Conserative, Libertarin, Communist, Nationist, Zionist, Fundantialist.. you pick it you can be classified.

          I have found that the major that cry “Hate Speech” are liberal and only cry it when something is said in oposition to what they believe. And they have no valid argument or counter points… They Cry that is Hate Speech and want the Speech police to come to their rescue…

          And you call me or classify me as a “Dam Republican” – how do you know that? Hum I guess thats not name calling thats just calling the kettle black – but see I don’t care, actually most conserative don’t care, a name is only a name and can do no harm. I have found in life, only those with a weak belief fondation are troubled by being classified. The don’t have the evidence or strength to defend their positions.

          I guess not being classified is so they can change aligance in the mid-stream to a winning group. But being Classified locks you all into a group.

          Oh well – just call me a “Silly Dam Republican” – or “Stupid arss Conservative” – or “Know nothing Liberatarin” – pick one of those three. Is fine with me, and being 6 you see the world for what it is – no preconceived ideas –

          The beauty of the young eye – and mind – ability to see what others can not.

        • #2691088

          Classification or justification

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Attack – Got to classify somehow

          Well I see exactly what you are saying Jim, and that’s one of trhe things that amuses me so about the American culture. People have to be molded or classified in order to be listened to or understood. If not, they have no right to speak.

          Now from what I am told, I am a Democrat, Socialist, Conservative, Liberal. This was all by different TR members who simply couldn’t get their head around that I do not favour a paticular party in Canada. I think people are simply unable of having a conversation without knowing or assuming they know where the other stands. This would be a very typical social disorder just like children have in school. If you want to be a jock wear must the uniform, if you want to look like a homey you must wear the uniform etc.

          It seems that everyone must wear their colors on their sleeve and stand behind them vehemently.

          When you have those that are indifferent, they are what? Anti-American, Democrats, lost souls, or they simply don’t get heard because they don’t stand for ONE party.

          It’s sad as well as scary, the kids learn this segregation in school, then grow up to be just like you, you must have a label to fit in.

          Is this not also the underlying mentality that fuels MASS agression against other countries?

          If they don’t like Bush, they are the enemy, If they support or believe in something that WE don’t, it MUST be stopped or corrected to fit into the American mold, yes there’s a double meaning there.

        • #2691006

          Oz-Oz-Oz – what am I going to do

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to Attack – Got to classify somehow

          Oz long time no – point counter point between us.

          Gee lets see labels – tags – classification –

          Isn’t that something that happens on a daily basis? What do you do at your job – you aren’t the CEO / CFO then jump to the CTO and CIO (ok if you own your own company maybe). But if your a salesman – you don’t do the programmers job do you – or do you not believe in labels – tags – or classifications at all.

          Its the same with you are human – homo-erictus – huminoid – not bug – insect – plant –

          Its the same with political views and beliefs – christian – islamic – jewish – whichever.

          Same with Political views – or basic beliefs – Libertarin, liberal, conservative, republican, democrat, communist, nationalist, socialist or facist – If you jump around not speaking one belief then – you have no beliefs – and more of whatever the mood or argurment I can cause problems with.

          If you – have beliefs then make them known and stay with them – if you don’t like being classified I guess a long walk off a roof would help – everything in life is classified – labeled – taged – Otherwise it would be nuts.

          Your vision is someone screwy – but then again – thats you Ozzie –

          Thanks for the laugh and the point counter points..

        • #2690973

          No it isn’t

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Attack – Got to classify somehow

          NO not everything in life is labelled,
          a TITLE at a company is actually a job description, not a label.

          Your TITLE allows those who wish to seek a specialist in your company to identify YOU as the one in charge of a given set of duties, again NOT a label.

          Abtually I didn’t know you were a “DAMN REPUBLICAN” it makes NO difference to my what soever what political party you favour, your views on war don’t ‘label’ your political identity in my world. If you had different views on ONE aspect of politics would you no longer BE Republican?
          No.

          AMERICA has a need to classify everyone, as I’ve said befrore, we don’t politically label each other in Canada, I couldn’t tell you WHAT party my best friends support, politics isn’t welcome in Canadian discussions, nor do we care.

          Your political views COULD tag you as an arse in my books, but being Canadian I couldn’t give a rats who you feel should control your country’s economy. When it comes to YOUR views on war, am I to understand that no matter what YOU feel you will offer a Republican view? Do you not make your own conclusions?

          No there aren’t tags assigned to everyone, I will prove ANYONE wrong who decides to place my thoughts in a box and classify me. I guarantee you will find a different classification after we discuss a different subject. I reach my OWN conclusions based on what I see and feel. Not based on what party I support, which in Canada is none as I am not Canadian and cannot vote here on a Federal level.

          You cannot tag me because I don’t fit tagging. It may work in ONE opinion that I am Liberal, other views may be Conservative. There is no mould and I don’t fit classification.

          That’s an American thing, come up here and see how often you are tagged. Come up here and ask people id they are LIberal or Conservative, you will see a LOT of furrowed brows as people say “Who gives a s**t?!”

          Keep YOUR politics in America where it’s appreciated, when it’s effecting MY day, then it becomes MY business and I will tell you what I think. Not what I’m SUPPOSED to think or what all the others wearing MY tag would think.

          THat’s why I say you are such conformists, you build a set of beliefs and morals based on a political party, to meit is complete lunacy, I supose down there it is expected of people to simply find a group and stay there.

        • #2690932
          Avatar photo

          Well Jim

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Attack – Got to classify somehow

          If you are so adamant in your beliefs why do you not take the opportunity to explain them when asked?

          Now I did ask you to speak out on just how troops proved ineffective in Nam because they lacked solid aims and an enemy but I have noticed that you declined to follow up on this offer.

          Could it be that you only wish to post here on what you would like to believe in rather than the reality of the situation? But then again I suppose you could have been one of the few from NAm who was welcomed home with open arms instead like the rest who where spat upon and treated like dirt for something that they had no control over. You have no idea just how upset I was when I saw scenes like this as the people who where protesting aimed their wrath at the wrong people. Instead of attacking the people responsible for sending the troops there they transfered their dislike onto the troops who had nothing to do with the thing in the first place. But then again I’ll bet you would have gone to Nam even if the US Government wasn’t interested wouldn’t you?

          Col

        • #2691000

          Did you read the post?

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Waaaa Waaa – Liberal – “Hate Speech” shouldn’t be permitted

          Nowhere in my post did I say anything about limiting speech.

          All I did was comment on Garion’s vicious attitude against anyone who is not 100% behind the war in Iraq.

          I used to consider myself to be a conservative.

          If I have now become a liberal, there is but one person to thank for that happening.

          George W. Bush has made me notice and dislike what the Republican party has become.

          I voted for Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and Bob Dole.
          I have written my Democratic Senators and taken them to task for liberal stands.

          As the Republican party has become a party of, by and for big business, I find myself unable to continue to support the party.

          The roots of the Republican party were in fiscal and environmental conservation.
          Can you find any fiscal restraint in the current federal budget?
          And, how come George W. spent the first 2 years trying to roll back every environmental initiative?
          Yet, in this election year, suddenly sees the environment as something to protect?

          Actually, I consider myself to be more of a centrist than either liberal or conservative.

          From what I read in your political posts, I suspect that you are about 3 steps to the right of Rush Limbaugh.

          Under George W. Bush, the Republican party has swung the political pendulum much farther to the right than the Democrats ever shifted the country to the left.

          Chas

        • #2692026

          The title is Hate Speech???

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to Did you read the post?

          Hum – that means its illegal – or liberals are attempting to make it illegal – the N word – the J word … the K word … the F word…

          Anyone that agrees with Bushs move on Iraq in your view is following a crazy man. And he made you (came right to your house hum) turn into a liberal. But you like Ronald – with trickle down Economics (which worked very well until Clinton stopped it). So Clinton and now Kerry have you vote –

          Oh I hope you get your way because there will be some great Conservative talk radio about Kerrys lies and lack of integrity … married to one of the richest woman in the US – Ms Heniz (HJ Heniz Company – Big Big Business), paid her CEO 76 million in one year – has more homes and cars planes than you have underware. Was a republican until she married Mr Kerry – hum thats interesting now isn’t it … wasn’t born here – and a real bitch to work for – ask her employees.

          Oh – Boy – Great Radio …

        • #2691923

          Attitude

          by thechas ·

          In reply to The title is Hate Speech???

          Jim,

          It is not the title of Garion’s thread or posts that bother me. Nor the specific words used

          It is his vituperative attitude toward anyone who would dare to NOT 100% agree with him.

          IMHO, Garion came here with a chip on his shoulder, and was looking for negative comments. Just so he could get pleasure from yelling at a few “perceived” liberals.

          If he had not challenged the liberal members of TR with the exclusions in the title of this thread, he would not have received any negative comments.

          I don’t recall ever calling anyone crazy for supporting George W. Bush.

          I do think he acted in haste in invading Iraq.

          While President Bush did not personally do so, the war in Iraq was “sold” to the American people as a quick in and out action, not a long term occupation.

          I do have little respect for what I refer to as “fair weather patriots” who only support George W. Bush because of his use of our military forces.

          I thought I was clear that it was the actions and attitude of the Republican Party under the leadership of George W. Bush that changed me from a right of center conservative to a slightly left of center liberal.
          If John McCain, or Libby Dole had been the Republican candidate in 2000, I likely would still be a conservative.

          As to President Clinton, I NEVER voted for him. Nor, do I think that Senator Clinton should run for the Presidency.

          I do think that the country, and world, would be better off if George H. Bush had been elected to a second term.

          I’m not sure that I want John Kerry to be my President.
          I am sure that I do NOT want another term for George W. Bush. (Well, more precisely his cabinet.)

          Chas

        • #2691836

          Thats part of the problem

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to The title is Hate Speech???

          That is part of the problem – you have a choice between which is the lesser of the two evils – Bush, Kerry, Nadar …. whoever. Thats why the primary system sucks – a good canidate gets removed for a party favority – where that canidate my of won with all parties voting for them.

          But – I also don’t like everything Bush or his cabinet have done (or plan to do). I do support the war and what has been done in Afgan and Iraq – I do support the troops – and I support the tax cuts and economic plans.

          His education plan sucks along with some other things from foriegn policies and NAFTA and other trade things.

          Kerry has no integrity – his wife is one of the richest women in America and they paid only – $120,000 in taxes last year – on 60 some million! – Now who zooming who on this one.

          I don’t like Kerrys ideas of the US bending to the UN – and anything else that comes out of his mouth from Healthcare to keeping Jobs in the USA. I see only lies –

          If he was worried about keeping jobs – why has HJ Heniz outsourced to India? – Any Heniz employees care to comment pro or con – Heniz produces food products overseas hum –

          So who do we vote for – which is the lesser of the two – who will protect the US from foriegn winnies – and terrorists – My vote – Bush. Lesser of the two evils.

        • #2691776

          Taxes?

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to The title is Hate Speech???

          Bush: Tax was 27.67% of adjusted gross; 27.67% of gross including tax-exempt interest; 31.29% of taxable income.
          Cheney: Tax was 19.59% of adjusted gross; 12.5% of gross including tax-exempt interest; 30.54% of taxable income.
          Kerry: Tax was 25.86% of adjusted gross; 25.8% of gross including tax-exempt interest; 29.49% of taxable income.

          Kerry filed separately from his wife, I believe. She makes payments at a different schedule than he does.

          http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2004/05/kerrys_wife_to_.html

          Remember to remove the errant spaces in the above posted URL.

        • #2690571
          Avatar photo

          100% correct

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Yes

          The have not’s will always want more than they currently have and will always see the affluent countries as the baddies. Unfortunately it is currently the USA who is feeling the brunt of their rage at their current position rather then the real people responsible who are their countries leaders who keep them ignorant and feed a constant stream of propaganda to suit their own ends.

          So is it any wonder that currently America is the brunt of most of this hatred? After all they where mainly responsible for Iraq being removed from the trade with the rest of the world in the first place {granted this was the right thing to do as the then leader needed to be taught a lesson but unfortunately he didn’t suffer his people did.}

          Now be honest if there was a “Trade Embargo” started against the USA tomorrow exactly who do you think would suffer the most? The current President of the general community?

          Incidentally you can forget the idea that you are self sufficient as your corporations have moved most of their manufacturing off shore so you would be hit far harder that you could ever image but as long the the corporations make huge profits who really cares right?

          Col

        • #2690563

          Sure right

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to 100% correct

          Since you obviously don’t live here, why can’t you just mind your own business? lol. So our corporations are making money?, Yeap, thats the USA’s goal in the world. To turn every country into a Democratic, Capitalistic country, so they can be just like US and be our trading partner. OMG, what a horrible concept.

          You mean people will get to choose their President/Primeminister, and and maybe even start a business to make money, provide jobs (sort of like what a programmer or Desktop Support, or Network Admin is considered, a job/career etc) , provide products and services to consumers, contribute to the economy and overall prosperity of the country.

        • #2690558
          Avatar photo

          I honestly feel really sorry for you

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Sure right

          You obviously seem to think that everyone outside the USA is just out to get you no matter what and to this end you seize on a single sentence twist it out of context to suit your own ends.

          Now your reply has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted and goes as far as trying to somehow imply that I’m against everything American, well my friend your totally incorrect and I do really feel very sorry for you as you obviously need some form of help for your condition.

          Just for fun can you attempt to look at the whole thing and answer accordingly instead of just seizing on a few words and using them in a vain attempt to support your misguided cause?

          Col

        • #2690544

          Can’t give people Democracy

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Sure right

          Garion,

          You can’t give or bring Democracy to anyone.

          Democracy requires a willingness to sacrifice, and can only be maintained by a strong desire for Democracy within the people in the country.

          Yes, we may establish a Democracy in Iraq. However, within 20 years of the US forces leaving Iraq I predict that the government will change to either a new dictatorship, or a religious theocracy such as Iran.

          As to our corporations: They do not want a Democratic government in the countries where their manufacturing operations are.
          It is a lot easier to take advantage of the worker and the environment when you have a dictatorship or similar form of government.

          Change in form of government is usually viewed as a bad thing by corporations, the stock market, and the futures market.
          That is why the stock market tumbles, and gas prices rise when a foreign leader is overthrown.
          Change means unpredictability.

          Chas

        • #2691016

          What?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Sure right

          “start a business to make money, provide jobs (sort of like what a programmer or Desktop Support, or Network Admin is considered, a job/career etc) , provide products and services to consumers, contribute to the economy and overall prosperity of the country.”

          Oh and I assume this is something we need to learn from America? A new country that thinks it has a grip on things? A country full of people who place themselves above the rest of the world’s citizens and even believe that everyone WNATS to be American or live like an American?

          I bet you are one of those guys who thinks everyone is just jealous of America and that you keep the world alive with all your exports right?

          Do you have ANY idea how much America relies on other country’s imports?

          If it wasn’t for Western Canada, California would be cold and dark. The homes in Washington would be made from plastic, the natural gas at your pumps would equal or exceed regular gas in price. And so on… you are not self sufficient, in fact you a VERY reliant on others as much as others may rely on you. That’s the problem when we start looking outside in, it is a globe. A BALL not a plain that begins at the USA or hill where the USA simply opurs down it’s great wealth and knowledge upon all the poor countires that wish they could be more like America.

          If you actually managed to convince every country to be like America, the suicide rate would go through the roof. There are people who COULD easily beome Americans that choose not to, why would that be?

          I have only ever met a few with the ego and self righteousness that you spout, funny enough, they were all on TR from America with very similar delusional opinions of the world around them. Read a friggin’ book one day will you!?

    • #2690572

      Of course

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to PICTURES OF IRAQ. (Warning: Not for Anti-Amercans or Anti war supporters)

      I can walk around downtown Los Angeles or Vancouver a take similar pictures. I can also go around and show the negative pictures of gang warfare, drug abuse and the underprivaledged.

      These pictures are nice to see, everyone loves happy children and big scary men petting kitty cats.

      They don’t show much other than the fact that not EVERYONE is having an awful time in Iraq, but that’s never been contested either.

      Iraq, Baghdad even is a very large place. I would rather see front line reporting to see how the resistance and daily terrorist actions are being handled.

      It is nice to have a time out and see the happy few though.

    • #2690556
      Avatar photo

      Actually instead of attacking me

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to PICTURES OF IRAQ. (Warning: Not for Anti-Amercans or Anti war supporters)

      And what you perceive as my objectives can you try to answer the question that I asked above?

      That would be a lot more constructive than any ramblings that are currently going on here and I for one am extremely interested in finding out exactly the mood in Iraq has changed so dramatically. Perhaps you do not think this is important but to me it is extremely important as it means that whatever was done there will be thrown out when we remove our troops from the area and in all likely hood it will revert back to what it was and possibly have someone worse that Hussein in power.

      Col

    • #2690551
      Avatar photo

      For some really great news

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to PICTURES OF IRAQ. (Warning: Not for Anti-Amercans or Anti war supporters)

      The Iraq Soccer team has just qualified to represent their country at the upcoming Olympic Gamed in Greek in the next few months.

      What is truly amassing here is that despite their previous Dictator and all the turmoil that they have had to go through within the last 18 months they are able to perform at this level.

      Even if they never win a single game at the Olympics they deserve a Gold Medal for just getting there.

      Col

    • #2691152

      Frustrated

      by garion11 ·

      In reply to PICTURES OF IRAQ. (Warning: Not for Anti-Amercans or Anti war supporters)

      Ok, I guess I should explain myself a little bit more clearly. Please keep an open mind and read through. I know its long but hopefully we can come to a better understanding after this.

      At this point, considering America and its involvement in War on Terror, Iraq, Bush, and whatever else you guys can think of, I have one thing to say. Its really none of your business, period. It is not your business to comment, judge, criticize, and oppose, the US.

      You are not being asked to fight in Iraq for US.
      You are not being asked to fight in Afghanistan and hunt for Bin Laden.
      You are certainly not being asked to fund the damn thing.
      You are not being asked anything.
      Unless we are attacking or threatning your country men and women in anyway, its not your problem.
      So what business do you have talking about this?

      We are not attacking any Democracies over in the Middle East (2 Democracies will never goto war by the way, just had to point that out). We are trying to rebuild a country, and hopefully make into a shining beacon for the rest of the middle east to follow and understand. Will we succeed? I surely hope we do. I really do, for the sake of Islam, middle east, US and its allies.

      Yet you take this war as something thats your business. Why? Is your country involved? Then vote your government out. Why are you criticizing the US over what we are doing? Damn man, we are not conquering the world. Do you want us to lose in Iraq? Is that it? or do you want us to rebuild that country and hopefully in 20 years it will be a prosperous country (Japan and Germany come to mind)? Nation buidling takes YEARS, not a week, month and certainly not by supper time.

      Every time something bad happens, I see and hear from the world (I post on other boards as well) “I told ya so”, “You should have never gotten involved” “Bush is a Nazi” “I hate him for starting a war with a dictator” “You should’ve attacked North Korea” … and Saudi Arabia” “You have been misled” “Violence doesn’t solve anything” “If theres a terrorist attack on American soil, remember you deserved it” “9/11 was America’s fault, you deserved it” “Your government controls your media” “Bush and the media control our minds” “”Those pictures of Iraq children with US soldiers are fake””Berg’s video was fake””Iraq was better under Saddam””The prisoners were abused and Bush should be impeached””You should have gone through the UN” and so many more colorful comments that I can’t repeat here.

      And none of these people are Americans. None!!. Although the sad fact is several people here are saying them as well now. How come you guys never ever comment on the insurgents? What about the time those 4 contracters were burned and hung from the bridge? Were you guys dancing with joy as well when that happened? How come there was never any response from the Muslims and their leaders or other Arab nations over that incident, yet abuse of some prisoners is a bigger news story than the beheading of an innocent civilian or those contracters?

      Yes true, I agree that not all of you have said these things, but the mentality that produced those above quotes is related. Its here in this country as well, and its by the media and trickles down to the populace. Don’t ever think for one minute that the media is leaning towards the Bush administration. I’d say only one channel, and it only provides an outlet for conservatives (aka Republicans) to speak. The rest, there are about 7 that are soooo ANTI-BUSH and even anti-american its amazing that noone else sees this. All the reports we get here is everytime I turn on ABC, NBC, CBS is blame America first attitude. You don’t see Al-Jazeera blaming the likes of Bin Laden, Palistinians, terrorists, and the Muslim leadership do you? You ever see or hear any Muslim leaders rise up and criticize the terrorists? (I guess they must perceive them as freedom fighters). But here, my god, every Tom, Dick and Harry has an opinion and a good majority of them support the US and its actions, while the rest are just boiling over in pure hatred of Bush, they are aka Liberals/Democrats.

      HERE IS AN EXPERIMENT (if anyone is feeling up to it)
      http://www.foxnews.com
      http://www.cnn.com

      Check out their headlines throughout the day, and throughout the week at different times and write down the different headlines they have and post them here with date and time. I will show you all the contrasts if you don’t see them for yourself by that time.

      Now on a world scale, multiply that hatred of Bush by a 100, 1000. 10,000??. The funny thing is, all these people have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Iraq and US poslicies. They don’t live here, don’t pay their taxes here, and don’t vote here. They certainly don’t ask US for any opinion on how they should proceed when their country is facing an issue, domestic or foreign. And frankly you don’t have to and shouldn’t have to. Self rule is part of being a democracy. I don’t see massive protests over Russia and its involvement with Chechenya. Americans aren’t asked about Quebec and its desire to succeed with the rest of Canada? France and its involvement with certain African colonies aren’t even mentioned. What about China and Thailand? or North Korea? Where are the massive protests when North Korea revealed that they had Nuclear weapon technology? South America and its drug infested cartel countries?? Any world opinion on that? or is it the US’s fault?

      I guess I am frustrated by all the criticism of the US especially by people who have don’t even live here. What would you guys do if your country was attacked like it was on 9/11? Would you actually rise up and meet the challange? I hope thats what doesn’t happen, noone deserves 9/11 to happen to them. But I guess it has to happen to their country before people understand why Americans feel the way they do.

      • #2691134

        They can comment – critize – or whatever – but

        by jimhm ·

        In reply to Frustrated

        They can comment all they want – they can critize all they want – they can whine and cry big liberal tears of sadness for those Iraqi prisoners all they want, and dance for joy over the 3,000 dead at the WTC and the 700+ in Iraq.

        America gives that right to them – but we also have the right to return comments and argue our points. They can accept or reject, but they only show their true colors – of course (as you seen here) they will call it “Hate Speech” and cry that we aren’t permitted to do that. Now in their country where the speech police work it maybe – but in America it is protected under the 1st Adm.

        If you look at it the liberals in Europe – Europe tried to appease Hitler – but they still ended in the same spot… War – if they would of stopped him early then things may of been better. But then the liberals wouldn’t of believed Hitler would of killed millions of civilians – Oh Hitler would of never done that.

        Na neither did Saddam – Na 100,000 in mass graves is nothing (Not much said in the liberal press) – no reason to take someone out of power – Na can we say Kosovo and Clinton (little slick whillie)..

        So let them whine and cry all they want – it is better to hear a dog barking and know where they are nd where they are coming from – we will keep quit and they will never see or hear us coming…… Shhhhhhhh we are hunting Liberals…. shhhhhhh hhhhhaaaaaahhhhhhaaaaaa

        • #2691085

          You seem to be completely missing the point Jim.

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to They can comment – critize – or whatever – but

          hum….Nobody says this war wasn’t needed to improve life for mankind. gee..So take that WHOLE thought right out of your head, you are WRONG. hum..Nobody condones the events of 911, nobody condones people being killed IN ANY COUNTRY.

          Gee..Bush Bs’d people into thinking they wer in grave and immediate danger from Saddam. Hum..UN inspectors had been successful and had said they would need a few more weeks, others wanted to wait on launching an attack for an additional three weeks so that UN inspectors could deem Iraq free of WMD, which YES they were doing successfully as they had found and seized some war heads, NEVER BEEN USED and uncapable of launching an attack on America.

          Hum..The operation was hasty, poorlly planned and a solo mission that everyone else was dragged into instead of an Allied attack.

          Gee..NOTHING to do with people condoning what happened or lead up to this war. Forget it Jim, you have a NON ISSUE.

          Ok one more Gee and a hum for you.

        • #2691331

          I guess the Saran Gas

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to You seem to be completely missing the point Jim.

          Did you read or hear that the weapon that was blown up was a saran gas bomb – the only reason it didn’t work is that the brains didn’t set it off correctly – but of course CNN had to correct them and tell them how to do it…

          Interesting WMD’s are starting to show up … interesting isnt it.

        • #2691225

          YES

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I guess the Saran Gas

          And it’s a good thing that you invaded when you did (in the nick of time too) that bomb was surely going to be headed for the US (or the Atlantic ocean if they couldn’t find a cargo plane to get it there).

          The idea here Jim is to see BOTH sides of the news, the overly left and the overly right. Then seek common ground or a middle point in the reports. NO Republican news is not acurate, it is a far right (if not much farther) than the Democratic is left.

          Don’t PICK a side and stick to it, investigate the differences in opinion and find the middle truth, remember “the truth IS out there” you just don’t get to see it until yuou look really hard.

          Contrary to ppular belief, I do not support the Democratic reporting and can see EXACTLY why Republicans don’t buy it either. Then again, I see the exact same coming from the Republican side. It’s nice to see OTHER news from other countries, including the Middle East, that has a more Liberal or Conservative view so you can find SOME balance to all these conflicting reports.

        • #2692145

          What’s more interesting

          by thechas ·

          In reply to I guess the Saran Gas

          What is even more interesting is the the official line from the US military sources in Iraq is that this may be an isolated incident.

          They are trying to decide if the militants ended up with one of these by accident.

          It might even be a shell that some troops grabbed during the war with Iran.
          Or, is from some used against the Kurds.

          I suspect that there are several reasons that the military would down-play this incident:

          Prevent a panic.

          Keep the search in full swing.

          Don’t raise false impressions that there is a larger cache soon to be found.

          Chas

        • #2692127

          Chas – I agree – But TWO cases

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to What’s more interesting

          .
          It is interesting that they are downplaying it. Moreover, I haven’t heard anything in the main stream media – or announcements from the administration – about the chemical agents intercepted in Jordan that were intended to use in a terrorist attack killing upwards of 80,000 people. Where did that come from, Iraq perhaps?

          What’s going on here?

          I’ve suggested all along that the biggest mystery was not whether or not WMDs ever existed, because everyone “knew” they did, but what happened to them?

        • #2691068

          Na neither did Saddam – Na 100,000 in mass graves is nothing

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to They can comment – critize – or whatever – but

          I thought we were discussing why America went to war. Not what the UK troops uncovered while there. Are you saying now that you are justifying Amercia’s knee-jerk reaction by stating that they found mass graves?

          Maybe the British could use that excuse but not America, you had no knowledge of mass graves at the time, these were STUMBLED upon by UK troops.

      • #2691089
        Avatar photo

        Firstly I’m Australian and I would like to point out

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Frustrated

        To you that our troops are in Afghanistan, Iraq and supporting the USA forces all around the world in any “hot Spots” when we are asked to. There have even been places where we’ve gone it alone Timore and Bougainville come to mind.

        But what I get worked up about is the way that you seem to think everyone?s out to get the “Good Old US of A” I’m certainly not but you chose to read my postings that way so you can go figure it out as well.

        As far as News reports go early this morning round about 3.00 am I saw an Interview with a “Republican” senator and some other guy and don’t as I honestly don’t know who they where or the first thing about American Politics and I’m not interested either because it doesn’t affect me in any way so I’m just not interested. But the senator was saying that something like 82% of all the people in Iraq wanted the US out now! Well that just stupid as the place would collapse into anarchy in very short order.

        I can also tell you that every one of the items against American civilians that you listed and more where reported over here with several Islamic Leaders berating the actions so maybe we get better news coverage here than you do over there but I’m leaving that one alone.

        However while I’m constantly attacked for asking a simple question and even threatened by at least one person here as they chose to misread what I’ve posted to suit their own ends which is nothing short of paranoia I get concerned as I begin to feel that a large proportion of the American population feel the same way and that is worse than what happened on Sept 11 or in Bali or where ever. If you actually take the time to look through all of my postings on this particular subject I haven’t said a single word against America in general and I very much doubt that I’ve said anything against the troops either as they are in an untenable position placed into an field of battle that they where never trained for with no set enemy. My first and foremost aim is to protect the troops as they constantly get the rough end of the stick every time something happens but even this is misread by some as an attack on the Americans and their political leaders. I also like the way that anything positive that I add here is ignored as well so it would appear to me at the very least that the bigoted responses are coming from a different quarter than my end.

        Now JimHM has said he served in Nam so ask him exactly how it feels to never know where the next attack is coming from or if that person walking down the street towards you is going to just walk past you without another thought or attempt to kill you. This is just not the place for troops as they are not trained to work in these conditions nor should they be expected to either.

        Then there is the idea that everyone is out to get the Americans at any cost and you claim that you only see adverse reporting about the actions of some of your troops. Well you are probably right as I’m not currently in America I just don’t know but this I do know the American Government holds itself up as the righteous Government so their troops should behave accordingly just because the other side are savages doesn’t mean that you have to descend to their level to win the conflict. Even if this action means that the conflict is ended sooner it will turn to ashes in your mouth as it is less than human to act like this and if it is insisted that the troops behave this way they will come home and continue to act this way which isn?t want anyone wants surely is it?

        You are supposed to be better than that aren’t you? As a good “Christian” country that America claims to be whatever happened to “Turn The Other Cheek?”

        Col

      • #2691086

        Bulls**t

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Frustrated

        Absolute crap.

        “Its really none of your business, period. It is not your business to comment, judge, criticize, and oppose, the US.”

        Of course it our business, I lived only a half hour from your border until a recent move, now I am 5 hours fropm the border or 4 from Seattle by ferry.

        EVERYTHING you do effect us in one way or another, including bringing hatred into North America. A nice big ditch along the border and you could all float South and be done with it. YOu could bnomb anyone you wanted and it would have no effect on us. Also lets not forget the economical hits we take as a neighbouring country that shares that garbage NAFTA crap with you.

        So, YES sir, this has EVERYTHING to ddo with the rest of the world, remember YOUR president SAID HE WAS the leader of the free world, even though I still don’t believe that he won the vote, there’s just too many articles and documents stating how he used his political influence to change the requirements of the Military and Florida voters, but that’s an old stoy I am definitely not backtracking to, if you don’t believe it by now, you never will a the discussion (judging by your past comments) is entirely futile. You say so often how you want people to read with an open mind, yet you approach MOST of the responses that don’t simply agree with you, with a very closed mind and negative attitude.

        As for compasring FOZ and CNN, anyone with half a brain will understand that neither is a NEWS source and no matter which reoprt is shown by one, another can easily contest it as Left wing vs Right wing etc. Waste of EVERYONE’s time.

        As for “What about the time those 4 contracters were burned and hung from the bridge? ”

        Again, this is a war, did you expect something different? The men ad women IN a war, are supposed to be trained to suppress a reactionary response in such situations, this does not condone nor condemn anything.

        You seem to have the understanding that thinks America went in too erarly on this campaign is in favour of Iraqi and against the US, how small is your brain I might ask? Do you think in binary or something? ‘If it isn’t FOR it MUST be against.’ What kind of thought process is that?

        “What would you guys do if your country was attacked like it was on 9/11?”

        Make up your mind already, is it protecting yourself from WMD, 911, privatizing of Oil (which Iraqi’s were strongly against when Saddam tried it) or freeing the Iraqi’s? You do realize the ONLY benefit to America is that their price for crude will drop right?

        You also seem to be forgetting that over 30 other countries are now active in Iraq, which you discount as being in Afghanistan, well we’re still there too.

        You have built such a negative opinion based on what you have heard in OTHER forums, probably from a bunch of kids who are just mirroring what their parents say at dinnertime.

        “”You should have never gotten involved” “Bush is a Nazi” “I hate him for starting a war with a dictator” “You should’ve attacked North Korea” … and Saudi Arabia” “You have been misled” “Violence doesn’t solve anything” “If theres a terrorist attack on American soil, remember you deserved it” “9/11 was America’s fault, you deserved it” “Your government controls your media” “Bush and the media control our minds” “”Those pictures of Iraq children with US soldiers are fake””Berg’s video was fake””Iraq was better under Saddam””The prisoners were abused and Bush should be impeached””You should have gone through the UN”

        I think the war WAS neccesary, not with the unprepared and ‘F-the-world’ attitude that it was prematurely launched with though. Your soldiers have died due to a lack of support, NORMALLY obtained from America’s former Allies. You RELY Canada’s recon as you have in your other conquests, you RELY the Australians special forces etc. You have been successful in all your pther battles because of an amalgamated force utilizing the world’s best. When SOME of you allies wanted to wait another THREE WEEKS, Bush went on the ‘lets instill fear into America and justify and early attack’. Well what a mess, and now every other allied force is in there too helping to clean up and stabilize this country.

        So in shot:
        YES IT IS MY BUSINESS, IT’S EVERYONE’S BUSINESS, NEXT TIME CONSIDER THAT WHEN YOU DECIDE IT’S YOUR BUSINESS TO GO TO WAR ALONE AND BITCH ABOUTH THE REST OF THE WORLD THAT COMES TO HELP ANYWAY, YOU UNGRATEFUL AND SELF CENTERED LITLE SNOT.

        • #2691082

          It’s everyone’s business

          by mlayton ·

          In reply to Bulls**t

          Go Oz. Everyone has the right, the duty to speak up

          to quote a pastor…
          “They first came for the Communists and I didn’t speak up– because I wasn’t a Communist… ”
          and it ends with
          “Then they came for me — and by that time no one was left to speak up.”

          War, by its nature, is filled with atrocities, on both sides. and to quote FDR
          “More than an end to war, we want an end to the beginnings of all war”

          I respect the men and women who are serving their nation and doing their duty, I reserve my disdain for the knee-jerk “eye for an eye” politics that lead to war in the first place.

          And anyone who thinks everything in all areas of Iraq is better now probably also thinks everything in all areas of America is fine too. There is always work to be done, ideally we would like a leader who recognizes this, and sets forth a plan to accomplish those tasks – a plan that all of America and the world can get behind.

        • #2691080

          Correction

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Bulls**t

          I won’t correct all my typos but the following sentence was missing a word that changed the context.

          “You seem to have the understanding that thinks America went in …”

          SHOULD READ

          “You seem to have the understanding that ANYONE who thinks America went in…”

        • #2690991

          I guess only one way to resolve this

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to Bulls**t

          LOL, um..yeah. Picked off sentences one by one eh? Taken out of context was given a new meaning in the above post ladies and gentlemen.

          Well, here goes

          Hmm…You country is part of something called NATO. One of the charters/rules of Nato was that if any member was country was attacked, it would be like an attack on all members and the response would be coordinated together. Obviously several countries didn’t live up to their end of the bargain.

          No America is not mighty, I never said it was. We are the most powerful country right now in terms of economic and military (till Russia grows up in 20 years, then talk about a trading partner!). I don’t care how your damn media spins this, its an undeniable fact. Your media is so twisted dude, they are not stating the facts (about Florida election and what really happened, because they didn’t want GW in the white house, they wanted someone that can control American power, Al Gore) and no matter how much I tell you you don’t listen and you will never know and frankly I don’t have time cause thats another topic all together.

          “As for ‘What about the time those 4 contracters were burned and hung from the bridge?'”

          “Again, this is a war, did you expect something different? The men ad women IN a war, are supposed to be trained to suppress a reactionary response in such situations, this does not condone nor condemn anything.”

          Now the above paragraph(s) confused me. Cause the question at hand about the 4 contracters was taken out of context because I asked where the outrage and protests were when this happened?? Where were the Muslim leaders that condemened this? What about the Canadians for that matter?? Did you dance in the streets as well? Yet we are supposed to apologize when pics of prison abuse is shown? Oh and we did, cause we know we are not the terrorists, nor have that kind of mentality. So I guess you can actually come to the conclusion that *GASP America and its leaders aren’t such bad guys, cause they obviously didn’t celebrate on the street after Iraq was bombed nor did we celebrate when PRISONERS were abused.

          “I think the war WAS neccesary, not with the unprepared and ‘F-the-world’ attitude that it was prematurely launched with though. Your soldiers have died due to a lack of support, NORMALLY obtained from America’s former Allies. You RELY Canada’s recon as you have in your other conquests, you RELY the Australians special forces etc. You have been successful in all your pther battles because of an amalgamated force utilizing the world’s best. When SOME of you allies wanted to wait another THREE WEEKS, Bush went on the ‘lets instill fear into America and justify and early attack’. Well what a mess, and now every other allied force is in there too helping to clean up and stabilize this country.”

          WOW REally?? You actually thought war was necessary? I am shocked and in awe. No the soldiers died because the terrorists and insurgents killed them, not because you didn’t support us. What other conquests did we have? We depend on YOUR RECON?? Whoa, hold it pardner, yes possibly in the past countries have had joint military excersices and even missions together (India and Israel, India and US had some I believe), but I just hope you are not implying we need your recon. LOL. No, Bush didn’t go alone, UK was a HUGE suppporter. ITS a MESS?? Did you even see the pictures above? No its not a mess, things are working, Iraq is being rebuilt, slowly but surely.

          “YES IT IS MY BUSINESS, IT’S EVERYONE’S BUSINESS, NEXT TIME CONSIDER THAT WHEN YOU DECIDE IT’S YOUR BUSINESS TO GO TO WAR ALONE AND BITCH ABOUTH THE REST OF THE WORLD THAT COMES TO HELP ANYWAY, YOU UNGRATEFUL AND SELF CENTERED LITLE SNOT.”

          I went to Toronto on a business trip and I saw the news and certain talk shows (that featured an Indian military analyst no less). My god, these people are making up lies, dude. They were making up such lies about America and its activities in Iraq I was stunned. Yes you can say that thats the truth, blah blah, but its not. Cause the majority of the media in here hates Bush as much as you do and if it was true they would have been the first ones to jump on it. Which leads me to my point, is there anything America can do right in your eyes? Or do we all have to be one big Socialist continent? Its ok admit it if you are a Socialist, (aka communist) but don’t sit there and support America only when it suits your needs. Oh but, thats silly, WHAT OTHER motivation does a country need to support another country if not SELF INTEREST? (Yes its a question that I am sure you will ask). Well thats the whole point dumbA**. America never denied it was not in our interest to go to war, however….

          “Make up your mind already, is it protecting yourself from WMD, 911, privatizing of Oil (which Iraqi’s were strongly against when Saddam tried it) or freeing the Iraqi’s? You do realize the ONLY benefit to America is that their price for crude will drop right? ”

          …yes these are all our interests, believe it or not. We do care about the Iraqis, WMD, protection from a future 9/11 (because the battle is being fought in another country, not on American soil, so all the attention is over there, thats the genius of GW strategy), oil supply, etc etc..

          Here is some facts your biased media missed.

          1. Chemical and biological weapons manufactring equipment, plans, “recipes,” and equpment, all of which could have resumed production on a moment’s notice with Saddam’s approval.

          2. Reference strains of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents (found in the home of a prominent Iraqi biological warfare scientist).

          3. A prison laboratory complex fo testing biological weapons on humans.

          4. Long range missiles (prohibited by UN resolutions) suitable for delivering WMD.

          5. Facilities for manufacturing fuel propellan useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles.

          In the wake of 9-11, when a devastating attack on this country was planned and executed from a little nothing country like Afghanistan, could we take the chance that an even greater attack would NOT come from Iraq? Do we have to wait for the missiles to be in the air before we do something about them? I certainly hope not.

          We’ve also found more than one link between Iraq and al-Qaeda; we’ve found Saddam harboring terrorists like Abu Abbas and Abu Nidal. There was the training ground at Salman Pak – Hijacking 101. Not to mention the Islamic Change Movement, a somewhat shadowy organization based in Iraq that claimed credit for the downing of TWA Flight 800.

          Now about the oil. We didn’t have to invade Iraq to get their oil. We could have bought it like the Russians, the French, the Canadians, the Germans. “No Blood For Oil?” I guess that’s okay when it’s Iraqi blood for cheaper French oil. And all of the business that Halliburton does in Iraq accounts for about three percent of its revenue. Iraq is hardly a cash cow for Halliburton (although it sure was one for TotalFinaElf).

          Sixty years ago a lot of folks said that democracy would be impossible to achieve in Germany and Japan. How wrong they were.

          Understand something, these Islamic Fundamentalists are playing a game of power dude. America is their target for whatever reason, (world’s lone super power, support of Israel, their resuming of the crusades, etc). We are not going to let them win, period. Whether you support us or not, we will fight and we will go down fighting (although its in your BEST interest to support us, Canada and US do have a long and mutual history). We are not going to ask the permision of the world to protect ourselves or our interests, understand me?

          If you want to talk more, come to NJ, I live there. And spew your communist crap and see what happens to you. Otherwise Shut The F**k Up.

        • #2690960

          Just stop and think

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I guess only one way to resolve this

          You have oibviously taken immediate offense to my post and started off like all your other responses here.

          What is out of context? Those were complete sentences taken from your posting, perhaps you should try and reword your thoughts if that’s ot what you mean.

          Now to begin:
          ‘Hmm…You country is part of something called NATO. One of the charters/rules of Nato was that if any member was country was attacked, it would be like an attack on all members and the response would be coordinated together. Obviously several countries didn’t live up to their end of the bargain.”

          THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT ACTED ALONE WAS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. The other countries were in AGREEMENT that the UN was effectively seeking out the absence of these ‘said’ WMD that has since been proven as misinformation by the CIA. The Administration to which you bow daily confirms this themselves.

          “Your media is so twisted dude…”
          THis just goes to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have NO idea what you are talking about.

          Out of the 60 channels I get, FOUR are Canadian, the rest are US and other world reports. It is a FACT that the US media is heavily censored by the White House, ANY reporter around the globe (including US) will attest to that. You see what you are ALLOWED to see. You should see the difference between American photos of war and the BBc’s or Iraq’s or Canada’s. WHY? The reporters are NOT allowed to show them in the US, they have been interviewed and are trying to fight the US now so that the stories and photos can be shown in the US but they are being cut off by the White House. What YOU consider left wing reporting is so candy coated it isn’t funny, and YES I do see YOUR channels, too many of them really.

          No Canadians weren’t happy to see Iraqi’s torturing allied soldiers, you seem to feel that everyone is against the war, which AGAIN they are not. WHat the big issue is, is that GWB bs’d FEAR into US citizens as in every similar situation, to allwo him the room to act alone and prematurely, THIS KILLED AMERICANS, but you seem happy about it.

          As for Canadian recon, even the soldiers in Iraq have said that Allied recon would be saving lives (during the initial invasion especially when a low speed tank was hit as it was forced to do recon without the needed equipment. Look up Canada’s Coyote reocon vehicle, it has served and saved YOUR men for some time now, the Gulf war showed it’s importance more than any yet.
          We have faster vehicles, better equipment for monitoring and long distance recon, YOU are wrong in saying you don’t NEED Canada’s recon. Dig through some of your war archives and see just how many times Canada has helped the US with recon needs, you WILL be stunned.

          Toronto is an entity within itself and hardly a good example of Canada. I have left companies that wanted me to move there. Toronto is a country itself when compared to the rest of Canada.

          “Or do we all have to be one big Socialist continent? Its ok admit it if you are a Socialist, (aka communist) but don’t sit there and support America only when it suits your needs. ”

          First of all I don’t know what I am as far as a political view. We have a Liberal government and for now it works for my so I guess you could tag me as a LIberal if you must, but do it in pencil. I am not Canadian and don’t support a specific party here. As for me looking to America to support my needs, never happened for me as I have never personally needed America. I USED to have offices there and have sold many thousands of albums there but I don’t need it personally, you guys will buy anything though so I appreciate the residuals.

          “1. Chemical and biological weapons manufactring equipment, plans, “recipes,” and equpment, all of which could have resumed production on a moment’s notice with Saddam’s approval.

          2. Reference strains of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents (found in the home of a prominent Iraqi biological warfare scientist).

          3. A prison laboratory complex fo testing biological weapons on humans.

          4. Long range missiles (prohibited by UN resolutions) suitable for delivering WMD.

          5. Facilities for manufacturing fuel propellan useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles.”

          Wrong, this all has been in our media, AND yours as I see that too remember? THe absence of proof has been questioned and the Long Range missiles were contested and to this day NO confirmation that Iraq had the technology to deliver weapons to the US has been shown, in fact quite the opposite. Even your God (sorry) President wouldn’t say they were ready to attack the US, you were just fed the insinuations that America bought. Even Max, your best ally here for sure, will not agree with you on this one.

          As ffor 911 and you saying that everyone ahs turned their backs like cowards on the whole Iraq invasion, perhaps you could explain why it took you four years to join the rest of the world in WWII after hundreds of thousands were killed and torured in Nazi death camps. Not until YOU were attacked did you then participate.

          ****YOU COULDN’T BUY IRAQI OIL****
          As for the oil, you couldn’t be more misinformed.
          You say you could have bought iraqi oil, NO YOU COULDN’T Saddam cut off the US, that’s why the US was buying oil from the countries you now condemn for trading dual purpose goods. If you want, I will send you a copy of the ‘US Embassy report to the Congess’ that completely details all aspects and issues behind the OFF program and dual purpose goods. The US was stopping shipments of food and needed supplies indefinitely, thus cutting off Iraqi’s from neede supplies. All in spite of Saddam, you made other Iraqi’s suffer by not completing inspections in the agreed time frames, some shipments taking more than 11 months, some not at all.
          You were forced to buy it from Rusia and France etc who were all gettng it from Saddam and then marking up the price. IN essence, supply and demand created such a NEED for some of the smaller countries to export oil to the US that they were needing to buy mroe and more from Iraq.
          This way you don’t need the middle man and you just steal it yourselves, against a program which the US initiated.

          As for nobody supporting the war you are wrong again, you are REALLY starting to show your age and mentality here as you seem to be missing the point ONCE again. The problem was that BUSH ignored his Allies and the recommendations of the UN and NATO. HE, MR GEORGE BUSH THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT, was the one who acted alone. HE ignored NATO , not CANADA. HE is the cause for such a rough beginning to all this, an unprepared military invasion that killed many. GWB is more of a threat to America than Saddam was.

          I don’t think Saddam should tay in power, Iraq needed to be saved, Saddam neede to be caught, none of the other countries you have comdemned ever disagreed with this. THe disagreement was that not enough PROOF that Iraq was NOT dismantling the WMD was provided. In fact the UN had found several things that COUDLN’T target America, that Iraq seemed to be dismantling it’s WMD programs as they said they were and had said that within weeks the inspections would be completed. From THAT point on, the WAR ON TERRORISM, (remember the big world alliance that included everyone fighting in Iran?) would be fought as an allied interest.

          You seem to be saying that YOU were in danger, that YOU were saving yourselves. IN Actuality, England was in MUCH greater danger of attack from Saddam than you were, so I suppose now you can say you did it to save England?

          Your post is such nonsense and such unresearched or qualified information it seems like we’ve walked back a year in time here on TR. All of these points have been churned over and over again, at this pointin time, your claims hold no water they just aren’t proven and have been proven otherwise over the past year.

          As for your closing comment, you REALLY don’t know me and it isn’t ANY effort for me to visit New Jersey, in fact I have been there twoce on tour with acts I manage. You comments will be ignored THIS time, yet these things wont get you far on TR as unlike a kiddies chat room where these things are considered cool, at TR it is grounds to be ousted.

          Now because you threw around some names in one of your posts, I called you a lttle snot.

          Normally, a personal attack is grounds for membership cancellation here, your closing comments are very brave for someone hiding in another country so I will dismiss them as fluff like the rest of your post, keep in mind though that I won’t be so kind in future as to just let it go, and you wouldn’t be the first here that’s for sure.

          Perhaps next timeyou decide to start such a discussion you may want to keep in mind,
          Such political discussions have to be very carefully worded so as not to defame any individual or the country in which they reside. Now I know I got pretty pissed at your ramblings but you seemed to attack every person and every country that didn’t agree with you, without their provocation, just difference of opinion. Keep it up and you will be the nest TR big mouth to hit the road, people don’t stand for such immature BS here.

        • #2690952

          Piss off

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to Just stop and think

          you dumbshit. Was that it? or did you want a more clarification on what I think of your stupidity, LOL.

          My favourite is

          “…WHat the big issue is, is that GWB bs’d FEAR into US citizens as in every similar situation, to allwo him the room to act alone and prematurely, THIS KILLED AMERICANS, but you seem happy about it.”

          Oh no he scared us and deceived us. OMG, we are soooo dumb.

          “Perhaps next timeyou decide to start such a discussion you may want to keep in mind,
          Such political discussions have to be very carefully worded so as not to defame any individual or the country in which they reside. Now I know I got pretty pissed at your ramblings but you seemed to attack every person and every country that didn’t agree with you, without their provocation, just difference of opinion. Keep it up and you will be the nest TR big mouth to hit the road, people don’t stand for such immature BS here”

          You have a lot of nerve telling Americans, on an American owned message board on how and what we should post. You don’t like my posts don’t read em.
          But you know what, Shut up already. Getting sick and tired of your lies and double talk. Please do me a favor and don’t post anymore responses to my threads ok? I will do the same to yours.

          As I stated if you really wanna settle this you know where I am. And you’d be shocked and awed at our patriotism, something you don’t seem to have a concept of anyway so wtf is my point? I guess nothing, I am just insulting the alphabet by responding to your posts. Good day.

        • #2690947

          Well that’s good for me anyway

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Piss off

          An American company run TR, it is NOT an American bulletin board in ANY form though.

          The regular posters here are from England, Canada, Australia and the USA.

          Now I can’t find the exact phrasing anymore as the site is being changed a lot lately, but it was clearly stated that this is a GLOBAL forum, NO personal attacks or attacks on one’s country are tolerated. The last couple of guys who were exactly like yourslef, no your not unique nor are your views new or your opinions of others new either, are no longer here.

          Why?

          Because they thought they had freedom of speech and had completely failed to understand that your constitution does not permit you to exercise your free speech on a PRIVATELY owned community that has it’s own guidelines. Your constitution does not aply to all apsects of life, it just means that you have the right to exercise free speech and cannot be silenced by your government. It doesn’t mean you can say whatever you want wherever you choose.

          Out of curiosity how old are you? 16, 17 or am I being generous? PLEASE don’t tell me your are an adult yet.

          One point I did see you comment on that you may want to explain is :
          But I guess it has to happen to their country before people understand why Americans feel the way they do.

          London Blitz, Battle of Britain, there are many times when my countrymen have been attacked on their own soil. They also sucessfully defended that soil with the help of every allied country EXCEPT the USA, who hadn’t been attacked themselves YET. Canada was one of the first Allied countries to join from outside Europe and lost thousands while your great grandfather sat at home with his flag waving proudly over the porch.

          (before you form a response, Hitler was defeated in trying to invade England, you did NOT save anyone there, Germany had lost to the RAF and RN when trying to invade.)

          The British and French slaughtered the USA out of southern Canada in 1812, we have fought here in Canada too, yet you lost all the lives in that one.

        • #2690941

          Here’s the TR guidelines for you

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Piss off

          TechRepublic discussion and Technical Q&A guidelines are based on the belief that communities function best when members show mutual respect and cooperation.

          The essential rule for posting to Discussions or Technical Q&As at TechRepublic is that you are responsible for your words. This means that you are responsible for posting responsibly and ethically, and for conforming to community guidelines.

          You may, from time to time, find yourself in disagreement with someone on TechRepublic. Keep in mind that it’s safer, more polite, and more persuasive to take issue with that person’s comments, rather than attacking them personally.

          Remember that we are an international, culturally diverse community of IT professionals. Standards vary, and meanings may be easily misunderstood.

          To that end, please

          avoid “obscene” language
          be careful not to trample on the feelings of others
          remember that hasty comments will be available long after you have entered them
          use moderation and good judgement

          So where within these guidelines can you justify your behaviour in this thread?

        • #2691332

          Perhaps…

          by mlayton ·

          In reply to Piss off

          ..it’s the language your posts contain that make you seem not too bright, rather than the content. Some people try hard to be respectful, professional and courteous, even when delivering a dissenting opinion. I urge you to try it, I guarantee respect delivered to others will in turn get respect back.

      • #2691015

        I’m an American

        by thechas ·

        In reply to Frustrated

        I’m an American.

        Prior to George W. Bush, I voted solidly Republican.

        In the 2000 campaign, there were a pair of back to back speeches.
        To one group, George W. told them that he fully supported a specific program.
        (This surprised me as I thought his stand was the opposite.)
        To the next group, he told them that the program had to be eliminated.

        Since that time, I have been paying more attention to what our elected officials are saying.

        Far too many of the polices and legislation coming from Republican politicians are aimed at benefiting big business at the expense of the average American and the working man!

        I won’t say that I will never support another Republican. But, right now I expect to vote nearly a strait Democratic ticket this fall.

        I’ll say this again in case it did not sink in the first time:

        Being opposed to the war in Iraq does not necessarily mean that one is anti-American.

        Being opposed to President Bush does not mean that one is anti-American. Or, even a liberal.

        One is NOT automatically a patriot by supporting a war, or President Bush.

        The big problem that you fail to see in your rants against the people who call the US Government to task over our immoral actions is:

        We can expect what we consider to be immoral actions from the terrorists and religious fundamentalists in Iraq.

        The US entered this war in part on the moral high ground in opposition to a ruthless dictator.

        Is it any wonder that the world in general, and Arab people in particular would be upset when we show ourselves to be little better than Saddam?

        The present situation in Iraq can be likened to a parent eating a cookie after telling a young child that they could not have one.
        Neither at home, or on the world stage can one earn respect by telling someone else to do as I say, not as I do!

        Yes, we have done some good things in Iraq, and captured the spirits of many of the citizens there.

        Yes, some bad things have been done to our soldiers in the middle east.
        However, these actions have been done by individual groups, not a nation, and not a government.

        If we punish 1000 men for the actions of 1, how can we prove to Iraq that we, and democracy are any better than Saddam’s dictatorship?

        Chas

        • #2691007

          Applause

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I’m an American

          Well Chas, that certainly deserves a round of appplause. How well worded and to the point, man you’ve got a real knack for that.

          I must also state that in NO way do I condemn ALL Americans especialy soldiers. The guys that send them to war under false pretenses and the guys who think it is so righteous are the ones I target with my aggression, when you say you are American, it makes me realizwe i may be lumping you and others in with the bunch even when I don’t intend to. Forgive me, ‘they’ know who ‘they’ are and I am sure you know that I don’t look down upon ALL Ametricans.

        • #2691003

          No

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to Applause

          You only condemn Americans who don’t agree with you. Spoken like a true communist!

        • #2690988

          Oz is Equal Opportunity

          by thechas ·

          In reply to No

          Sorry, if you had been around here as long as some of us have, you would know that Oz is very capable of criticizing people who agree with him.

          Oz is also definitely NOT a communist.
          He may be more liberal than you, but he is a capitalist pig.
          Heck, I’m pretty sure that Oz is even pro-democracy.

          As i look back at this thread, YOU have done everything you could to invite discord.

          If you had left the disclaimer off of your original title, and just presented a positive image of our troops efforts in Iraq, you would not have received any negative comments.

          I respect your right to your views.

          You in turn (to be an American) need to respect the rights of others to their opinion.

          Chas

        • #2690985

          Why

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to Oz is Equal Opportunity

          This title clearly states who should and shouldn’t look at these pictures. I can’t help it if they don’t like what they see. I invited discord by expressing my freedom of speech on an American owned company’s forum? wow, sounds a little like blame the victim crap.

        • #2690983

          OK Gary, you win

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Why

          Have a nice day.

        • #2690981

          Images

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Why

          I did not see a single post that had any problems with the images.

          Nor have I seen anyone who disputes that our forces are making friends and helping the people of Iraq.

          The majority of negative posts have to do with your prejudicial attitude.

          Julian may be the most liberal and anti-war peer in the forum.
          He would / did not have any problems with your positive images.

          When you stop and think about it, these images have very little to do with the war. Other than the fact that the war brought these Iraqis and our troops together.

          In the US, there are many organizations that spend countless hours helping others to build and improve their towns.
          They don’t get any news coverage either.
          Why?
          Americans expect other Americans to help others in need.
          It just is not a newsworthy story.

          Chas

        • #2690959

          Chas – These stories ARE newsworthy

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Why

          .
          It’s called balance.

          Or, are you suggesting there is balance?

        • #2690949

          Balance

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Why

          Max,

          Who ever suggested that the major news media was ever interested in the balance of good versus bad news?

          Balance as it relates to the media is presenting opposing views on an issue. This stirs controversy and boosts ratings.

          Why do I say that “good news” stories are not newsworthy?

          They don’t show death or destruction.
          They are not controversial.

          Good news stories just don’t make it off the cutting room floor.

          Our major local news TV station has increased their local news programming.
          Part of this expansion has been the elimination of the “good news” segments.
          It’s been quite a shock seeing the reporter who had anchored the human interest segments covering “hard” news stories.

          For the commercial news outlets, the focus is RATINGS, not news.
          As soon as the focus groups, consultants, and most importantly the advertisers determine that the viewing public is interested in “good news” stories, they will make it to the news.

          Until then, we will need to rely on individuals and NPR to let us know the other side of what is going on in Iraq.

          Yes, I have heard a number of “good news” stories about our troops helping the Iraqi people on NPR.

          Chas

        • #2690936

          The First Amendment

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Why

          “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

          Now I studied this document first with a magnifying glass, and then with a microscope. Nowhere could I find any reference to having a right to be abusive and offensive in exercising freedom of speech.

          Before you learnt that Colin was not an American, you threatened to punch him for disagreeing with you. This would of course be interpreted as denying him the right to express his views.

          Well it’s lucky for you that Colin is not an American because if you punched him, and he retaliated (which I doubt that he would do) you would get your ass kicked good and proper. Colin trained under a Shaolin monk and is called upon to act as a bodyguard for the Dalai Lama when he visits Australia.

          [Sorry to reveal these details of your personal life, Colin, but this mental retard is just asking for it].

          Now as I am not as self-controlled and resilient as Colin, you are most welcome to try punching me, and I might even send you a post-card in hospital to see how you are recovering.

          The type of rudeness and vulgarity which you have expressed in this discussion is not tolerated by the Management of TechRepublic, and you will see your sorry little ass deleted from the membership list in no time flat.

        • #2690906

          Another lesson on the U.S. Constitution – Free Speech

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Why

          .
          “Congress shall make no law….”

          I know we’ve discussed this before, but why doesn’t it sink-in to people?

          The “free speech” clause in the U.S. Constitution places that prohibition on the government, not private entities. It simply does not apply in cases like this, unless, of course, it’s the government threatening to punch someone in the nose unless they “stop speaking” a certain way. He could certainly get charged with assault for such a threat, or battery for carrying out such a threat, but not for squelching free speech.

          When was the last time a private person was charged with a crime by prohibiting or interfering with the “free speech” of another private person? I don’t believe it’s ever happened. A student can be kicked out of class for speaking freely. A person could be fired from a job for speaking freely. A person may be removed from a theater for speaking freely. And, I suppose, a person might get punched in the nose for speaking freely.

          A person making some statement that someone else might find offensive equals exercising free speech. Someone else threatening to punch that person in the nose because he was offended equals exercising free speech. The former might be misguided, and the latter might be stupid, but neither is being prohibited by any government agency.

          So the First Amendment is alive and well at TechRepublic since no government agent or agency is interfering with a person speaking freely.

          (Until, of course, the powers that be at TR decide enough is enough and they exercise their own “free speech” by zapping all these off-topic discussions.)

        • #2690897

          Crossed Line

          by nd_it ·

          In reply to Why

          I think you may have overstepped the boundry between personal bashing and freedom of speech. You posted a comment as it is your right to do so, and other posted comments as well. Those people do have the right to look at those comments and post their opinion, whether you agree with them or not. This is called debate, and it’s to debate the topic at hand not to personally name call. Sometimes debate doesn’t seem to go anywhere, but I think it does give us some understanding of others’ views, not just our own. Hopefully, I know I do, hope to become more open minded. Be carefull with your first ammenment right, you are crossing a thin red line.

        • #2690888

          You know what

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to Why

          See this is what my problem is with these people. This so called oz and a couple of others here in this thread. To me, in their eyes, America can never ever do any good. EVER! Unless we follow their countries opinions or the world’s opinion, or have a President who does so. How dare they? Yeah, they never explicitly stated it? Its implied in every sentence and every posting.

          I clearly stated America’s concerns and our plan and clearly asked where all these protesters and all these so called “experts” of opinion were when other countries fuck up (some deliberately *GASP*) No answer, except more bashing me and America. I am sick of it, Fuck you! They make up lies and stories to fit their ideology. The pure hatred of American power that is spewing from their filthy dirty mouths is unbelievable. These people want us to lose and any American that doesn’t see that is blind.

          Did you know when the US soccer team went to Mexico that the Mexicans were chanting Ossama Bin Laden? WTF? Anyone that opposes American policy with the current administration is thrown up on a high pedestal and worshipped like God, yet I was told that Americans were deceived by Bush. Our media is controlled by Republicans, etc, etc. What kind of arrogance assumes that Americans are so stupid that we followed Bush blindly with every policy he puts out? Who the fuck are you when you don’t live here to make that kind of a statement? Who? I don’t agree with everything he does, but I will support him as a citizen and a patriot in these dire times and he is doing his best. And yet arrogance and over confident is what we were labeled as. How dare you?

          LET ME STATE THIS VERY CLEARLY. SUPPORT OF AMERICA, ITS MILITARY, AND BUSH’S FOREIGN POLICY WAS A DELIBRATE AND A CONCIOUS CHOICE MADE BY ME AND MANY AMERICANS HERE, UNDERSTAND THAT VERY WELL.

          Noone deceived me and noone put a gun to our heads. Its just that its been so long since you shitheads had to support and be patriotic to your countries that you have forgotten how, so this American support for our President seems so foreign to you and the only explanation you can come up with is we were deceived. Fuck you. Scumbags, don’t ever assume stuff about Americans, nor think that you know what our mentality is. Fact is you don’t and you never will unless you are an American. I don’t assume to know Europeans do I? or Australians? I respect their wishes and assume that since they are a democracy that they have good intentions. But yet I haven’t gotten that response once since I have posted here from anyone of these people. They think we are out to get them or something.

        • #2691514
          Avatar photo

          Maxwell I just saw your posting here

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Why

          I hope that the “Powers that be at TR” never pull the “Water Cooler” discussions as I think it was you who first called them this. If we where all stuck to only thinking about technical things all the time it would be as boring as hell here wouldn’t it?

          Anyway on-wards and up-wards I’m sure that something better will come along that consigning this to the scrap heap where it remains undisturbed so that nothing posted here in any way affects how TR works.

          Have a great day.

          Col

        • #2691507

          Delusions

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Why

          “To me, in their eyes, America can never ever do any good. EVER! Unless we follow their countries opinions or the world’s opinion, or have a President who does so. How dare they? Yeah, they never explicitly stated it? Its implied in every sentence and every posting.”

          You could not be more wrong than in making such assumptions. Personally, I couldn’t give a crap who you are and what your government does, it SHOULDN’T have ANY effect on me, but it does in the case of your existing administration.

          America isn’t to blame here, the people that RUN America are (to me of course) and YES they are in my face ALL day and night. The papers report less and less about GWB now as public opinion says ‘Don’t put his face on our newspaper’ we simply won’t buy it. A neighbour who’s son delivers the new each day had lost MANY subscriptions during all the GWB hype, people wer cancelling the paper because they were sick of seeing someone else’s president in their face all day. It has NOTHING to do with hating AMERICA or ANYTHING American.

          Here is my beef about “followers’ or conformists.

          GWB ‘mislead’ the people of America who supposedly voted him into office. Whether it was on purpose or by acident due to misinformation, it was still done. Everyone was screaming about saving their babies and America from certain doom caused by the madman as a result of all the hype of attacks on america from WMD.

          WMD issue was brushed aside and instead, Liberating Iraq and defeating Saddam and his minions was the ‘new focus’ given to the people.

          Well this just becomes the GLOBAL war on terrorism now and definitely NOT what the quick call to arms was al about and does not justify America’s going in alone and unaided against the wishes of NATO and Ameriocan Allies in the WAR on Terrorism. You acted alone BY CHOICE, and then bitched at everyone else for not standing beside you, not ONE country but ALL your allies were ignored. GWB had been very happy to announce ths GOBAL effort to stop terrorism worldwide, there are MANY other countries in far worse condition and danger than Iraq, they were just a token target to help the oil companies help themselves, and that’s EXACTLY who Bush needs for his reelection.

          So if I was an American who had voted for Bush, been mislead and then redirected without a word of apology or explanation to the people who stood behind him, I’d be feeling somewhat pissed off about it. Instead I see all these Pro-Bush supporters standing by him as if he is so righteous and true to the game, he’s already screwed up his job and it went uncontested!! Is everyone blind? Do they just have a soft spot for knobs with blue eyes or do they sincerely feel that this man is the best suited to govern what is considered the leaders of the free world?

          If that was in Canada, the dude would be out on his ass and working at Burger Thing for $9/hour.

          We don’t stand behind such crap especially someone who misleads us and then expects us to support his next move. I see this as blind following.

          So:
          1) How does this mean I hate anything American?

          2) Why would this observation piss you off?

          3) “No answer, except more bashing me and America. I am sick of it, Fuck you!”
          How is that kind of an attitude supposed to get any form of logical answer other than FU2.

          Lastly and again, please refrain from using such immature language on these forums, it is NOT tolerated no matter WHAT you feel your rights may be. You are only minimizing your own mentality by such comments, at no time did you try to CLEARLY explain anything without flaming someone or someone’s country. Many asked YUO questions directly as i have above which you have not addressed and just resorted to the same FU response. What’s wrong with you, man do you ever need some help. Heaven forbid you should ever raise children.

          To show everyone how YOU can be so much more professional than all these nasty American haters who do not answer your questions (which is all I see people doing here with your failing to respond to their comments without name calling) and start by answering the three questions above.

          I guarantee you can’t.

        • #2691448

          I’m Back!! Could not resist!!

          by lostandfound3 ·

          In reply to Why

          Before you think this is a long diatribe about my support for GW and the War, and anyone who has read any of my past posts knows where I stand. Much reflection and introspection has led me to conclude emotions get the best of everyone (I happen to be kind of an authority on this, ain’t that right Oz?).

          I get upset too about all negative viewpoints about the U.S. I am just as patriotic as Chas, though we do not share the same opinion. There are a number of things that I dislike from the Anti-Bush crowd. The one thing that I grieve about is the lack of civility on BOTH sides.

          Before you shout hypocrit, a guy can have a change of heart, right? I am angered about the lack of positive support for the effort. Instead of assisting to resolve the underlying present issues, too much focus of the past is taking place. Face the facts, what’s done is done. Let’s move on.

          I agree that the humiliation of Iraqi prisoner’s is uncalled for. We are after all a noble and just society. Those who are responsible will face justice, but the American people as a whole will be spending years repairing our image beacuse of the acts of a few. Before we criticize Bush further, let the tale unfold and the facts come out completely.

          The beheading of Nick Berg is in no way equivalent to the treatment that Iraqi prisoners have undergone. Personally, I’d rather have a pair of panties over my head than have my head sawed off by a bunch of fundamentalist thugs. Can’t seem to get over my college years, ahh but I lament–the good ole days.

          Much of the condemation opponents of the war have been vitriollic, at times nonsensical. However, this should not condone some of the responses that I have read. I understand being personally affected by recent world events, but control of emotions must be maintained. Anger gets the best of us and what we believe as a rational argument turns into an ugly reflection that is misunderstood. You’re hurt, offended, misunderstood, and vilaphied. These are to be expected by the majority of persons of the opposing view, but in no way -shape or form- should we resort to the same tactics that others accuse us of. Maintain the focus on the truth. Heaven knows they can be occasionally right (just not with this).

          Civility is becoming a long lost artform in western society, just like morality and ethical behavior. These elements comprise the foundation of modern civilization. Without them, we are no better than states that promote acts of barbarism. Likewise, the approach we take in converting states to modern civilization should be multipronged. Concentration bringing captialistic practices and democratic philosphy should be our main focus. Trade does a wonderous thing for poor countries. Establishing governments that do not establish a state religion or laws banning the free practice of an individual’s religion of choice is almost quentisential to guaranteeing a free society. Establishment of laws to protect individuals and property is also paramount. Proper enforcement of established laws and ensuring justice for all is another to guarantee the pursuit of happiness.

          In time the Iraqi’s will learn these concepts and put Saddam’s regiem past them. Let’s progress NOT REGRESS. We should focus on future and current problems and allow the past to sort itself out. Even as a Christian, I do have some tendency to believe in Karma.

          What goes around comes around.

          If you do good deeds, you can expect good deeds done for you. If you commit acts of evil, acts of evil will be perpetrated upon you. Those who commit no evil but have acts of evil committed against them, justice will prevail in the end.

        • #2691437

          Hey Aggie

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Why

          Well I must disagree with at least the intro to your post. You have always conducted yourself in the same patient and considerate manner that I do. 😉

          You are 100% right in saying we must look forward but here’s the way I see forward.

          Everyone that is there now, many countries all pulling together to build a better Iraq (whether they want it or not, wich I’m sure they must)are going to rebuild Iraq and make it a safer and cleaner place to live with improved education and freedoms these people have never even thought of in theirwildest dreams. The long term effects are most definitely going to be an improvement on their past.

          So why keep digging up the past?

          Well some people like Garion seem to feel a need to say how this was all neccessary and planned from the beginning and that we are simply Anti-American if we don’t agree (not QUITE so simply but we don’t need the expletives).

          To thisform of attack, the only thing I have to say is that he’s got the wrongidea of what people think. He then insinuated we all wanted America to pull troops OUT of Iraq, heavens NO, not at this point in time, THE WORLD has a job to finish here.

          He then insisted that nobody else was in favour of the JUSTIFIED attack, yet that is also untrue.

          Speaking for myself only, Garion caused this discussion to backtrack and require further clarification of WHY everyone was pissed off at BUSH not America. He even went as far as saying that we are ignoring the NATO resolutions, which is untrue, WE followed NATO’s request, GWB acted alone and ignored NATO, end of story.

          The problem that Garion was tryig to resolve is he has found so much aggression and hatred on some kiddies BBS that he started a post here to find Republicans who would finally agree with him, when in his venemous rants, he was unable to find Republican supporters (even Max who stands behind the efforts here as we all know, respectfully wouldn’t fall into this trap).

          e then went on to VENT in his most childish way. He insulted EVERYONE here no matter who they were, where they lived, who they supported etc. He was just on a vile and destructive ‘road to nowhere’.

          Garion started this thread with ONE objsctive, to rejoice on his delusional understanding of events with fellow morons, he found none.

          You are right, we must now look forward, but with the upcoming elections, I think it is time for Americans to not follow Bush’s finger which is going on some tangent and actually reflect on how he has handled his term in office.

          I am probably wrong here but I am not an American so it is not important for ME to understand:
          GWB went against the wishes of NATO, while at the same time saying he wanted a world effort from all his new “buddies” from all these different countries. Yet he ignored their wishes as they didn’t side with him, what kind of WORLD awareness or alliance does that show? We should all band together but only if it favours MY ideals? His reasoning I am sure was due to MANY issues includng OIL from the world’s lagrgest resource that America has never had before.

          Then he used WMD to gain public support for his efforts and never mentioned ANY other gains or freedom of Iraqi’s etc.

          WHen the WMD surfaced as Iraqi fluff fed to the CIA in order get the States to attack Iraq, GWB had to save face, it was now FREE and Liberate Iraqi’s.

          At this stage in the game, other ALLIED countries had decided they better participate or we will have another Vietnam, so now it is a world coalition afterall, which is what it SHOULD have been in the beginning.

          Has GWB apologizedfor his misinformation? HAs he publically said that he was mislead and in turn lead the people who voted for him in the wrong direction?

          Has GWB improved the problem with outsourcing US jobs?

          Has GWB made America look better in the eyes of the rest of the world? Created new friends and alliances? Gain credibility as a world leader?

          I would say none of the above, he is making it by the seat of his pants and not very well either. Is this REALLY who you thnk, that out of the hundreds of millions of Americans, would be the person BEST suited to run your country?

          I think not and nobody in the other countries that are supposed to work WITH the US do either.

          So why would I make such an unqualified statement?

          This is where I back up to how it all began as it seemsto be so quickly forgotten, deception, the OFF program, corporate interest. One thing missing here, AMERICANS and how THEY benefit. Well I guess his GIFT to the American people will be that he SAVED you all from being destroyed by a madman, perhaps then you’ll forget all the crap he has dragged you guys though for years.

          Why should you all need to stand up here and defend him all the time? Why would you vote for such a controversial and misleading president. I was no HUGE Clinton fan, but despite all his BS, he kept it in the country and was somewhat genuine, the whole BJ on the White House thing, well I am SURE he wasn’t the first president to get a bit on the side, but he was the first that was hammered so hard by Americans as it was un-Christian of him. At least he was humanoid.

          Welcome back Aggie,
          OM

        • #2691247

          I Still Support Bush, but…

          by lostandfound3 ·

          In reply to Why

          Allow me to digress for a moment to address an issue you brought up OZ in your post about offshoring IT jobs, and I will end with one last comment about the current discussion.

          I am concerned by the efforts my companies to outsource/offshore a lot of IT jobs, for the sake of ‘saving’ money. If they moved everything over to another country, who would be left here that could afford the services and products these organizations offer?

          To isolate us and force companies into compliance with maintain jobs in the U.S. is not the best approach, and is down right repugnant. To levy such regulation will lead to companies leaving all together. Instead, we as a country must foster economic growth in these companies while allowing them to keep jobs from being offshored to other countries, such as India.

          The overall goal to any company is to profit in a manner that is lucrative to the shareholders of the company. I believe that a company should be allowed to make profits unfrettered by too much government regulation and excessively high corporate taxes. I do not advocate no government regulation, but it seems to me that our government has encroached on companies ability to make a profit too much. As unpopular with individuals of the liberal persuation this may be, we need to eliminate some of the regulation and cut corporate taxes.

          There have been many arguments against doing this, but the fact is that companies really do not get taxed. The taxes a corporation is charged with gets passed along to the consumers of the products and services. This effectively raises the costs on all merchantile and service industry items. Regulations add to the overall cost to produce a product or provide a service to conumers. Again the cost of the regulation is passed along to the consumers in order for a company to make a profit for its shareholders. If we truly want to mitigate the loss of IT jobs here, we can start by eliminating some of the ridiculous regulation, cut corporate taxes, and provide additional incentives to keep companies from moving its business to other countries.

          Regretably, this is easier said than done. Too many people feel that corporations are not paying their fair share already and are totally against this idea. However, what a lot of laypersons do not realize or comprehend is that they are paying the corporate taxes indirectly, with the corporation being the proxy. I think when people start to understand that continuing to punish companies with high corporate taxes, harsh regulation, and lack of additional incentives that these changes will be enacted. Until then, we will keep loosing jobs and we are all to blame because of our vengeful attitudes towards the very companies that provide jobs to the population.

          My final point on your last post: Oz, we may not agree a lot, but I hope I don’t get to the point that hatred blinds me as it did my fellow American. There are issues that I wish Bush would address myself, but I do not see it happening anytime soon. My above point is just one of them. I understand that every leader is not an expert in everything and requires good people around him/her in order to make a clear decision. What gives me angst is the laize-faire administrative practice that is going on. There are many things that need to be done in order to shore up the U.S. national security that is not being done because he does not want to anger our neighbors to the south (stricter border control). Several reasons nothing has been done yet, here is a few:

          Mexico owes the U.S. with respect to the water rights along the Rio Grande river. The U.S. is trying to get the Mexican government to comply with water rights treaties that have been in effect for a long time, but have not been successful. Stricter boarder control would ‘anger’ the Mexican government because it would not allow citizens from Mexico to illegally enter the U.S. and take jobs away from both American citizens AND legal foreign residents.

          Another issue the President has is that his campaign is worried about angering the hispanic vote by improving the boarder security. Down here in Texas, we have a severe illegal immigration problem that is causing high deficit spending with in the state and localities. Most of the deficit spending goes into providing emergency health care assistance to illegal aliens. This system is constantly abused because the illegals know it is free, and to top it off nothing gets reported to our Immigration service. This hurts residents down here that honestly need the service that are either citizens or LEGAL RESIDENTS. All the claims that he would have problems with the hispanic vote are false. Some hispanics may support him more if he followed through, others are not going to vote for him anyway because of the block voting that goes on down here.

          Realistically speaking, we have some relationships to repair here. We also have our reputation to fix because of a few bad soldiers. I still think we are justified with going through with the invasion of Iraq, and maybe additional consideration should have been performed. With the current intelligence at the time indicating the activites in Iraq, I cannot blame Bush for taking action the way he did. I think he was fed bad intel with repect to the specifics, however inteligence is only as good as the day it was obtained, the reputation of the informant, and the detail provided. 100% accurate intel is unprobable. Leaders have to do the best with what is given. If mistakes were made, then lets fix them and avoid them in the future. We have a long list of lessons learned, I only hope we actually implement the fixes to avoid repeating history again.

          One last thing, I cannot blame Bush for acting when he did given the reports that are comming out of the U.N. Food for Oil scandal. How can you convince countries that are on the take for Sadam’s regieme. Knowing this do you think that the U.N. would have ever supported a use of force to make Iraq comply with the world body’s Security Resoulutions? I think not.

          The unfolding events make light of the lack of support for enforcing resolutions by the world community. It is terribly disturbing that countries can be bought off like they did.

          This is the end of my rant for the day. Have a good one!

        • #2690950

          CHAS!!!

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Oz is Equal Opportunity

          Capitalist pig?!?

          I am actually laughing at that one, especially from one so eloquent as yourself.

          Yes I once suported capitalism and big business, I have since seen the error in my ways and have moved to a quiet little community surrounded by wildlife and beauty. I closed my ties to US partners. I only market into three major record outlets (they cover the rest though) and have downsized considerably as I was planning on moving back to England. Then I saw Port Hardy and it’s going to be REALLY hard to move now, I kayak by the whales!!! How can I leave that behind???

          SO I have humbled, as you have noticed on TR, somtimes anyway. I support small communities and home based business, I have removed ALL ties to North American contracts with labels so I can focus on the real music wolrd in Europe, Japan and Brazil.

          I do appreciate your comments, but CAPITALIST??

          I don’t even think Max sees me as a capitalist!

          but cheers mate, have a great one.
          OM

        • #2690948

          Sorry

          by thechas ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          Oz,

          I may have been a bit overboard in my comment.

          However, you have to admit that you are much closer to a capitalist than a communist.

          Being a liberal does not make you a socialist.

          Chas

        • #2690942

          Fair enough

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          I can swallow that.

          I feel like calling a few friends now and telling them that I have been politically tagged. It’s so exciting, it’s just so new and fun, how neat, I’m politically labelled!

          Everyone else just calls me ‘A**hole!’

          Thanks again,
          OM

        • #2690909

          On Oz and Capitalism

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          .
          Oz is on the record of having said that he despises capitalism. However, I don’t think he really said what he meant. If he really despised capitalism, like he said, he wouldn’t participate in it.

          I would guess that he really despises the image of a particular life-style one might associate with capitalism. A person can certainly despise the stereo-typical, wheeling and dealing , wall street, suit and tie, big-business images that the term “capitalism” might conjure up. But capitalism is not a life-style, per se, but rather an economic system. Capitalism, in short, is merely the exchange of goods or services for something of value. The “goods and services” are privately owned, not state owned, as is the “value” for which it’s traded.

          The doctor who used to make a house call to attend a sick child in exchange for a chicken engaged in capitalism. If someone wants a house on a secluded corner of Vancouver Island, he might provide goods or services in exchange for that house. But in today’s capitalist system, instead of trading our goods and services for a chicken or a house, we use money, i.e. capital, to keep track of the various exchanges. It’s really not too unlike bartering. Moreover, I’m sure Oz utilizes capitalism to advance his creature comforts, which is really the accumulation of wealth, over that of others.

          In my estimation, Oz is the consummate capitalist, but he can’t bear to admit it because of the negative images it conjures up in his mind. Not that I’m suggesting that the images are an accurate measure of capitalism, or that they’re necessarily negative ones, but he apparently thinks they are. (Not that I’m trying to psycho-analyze, but it’s simply my observation.)

          To know what a person really believes in, look at what he does, not at what he says. And Oz is a believer in capitalism. But capitalism is good. Without it, no one could acquire that house on a secluded corner of Vancouver Island.

        • #2690848

          Great observation Max

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          You ranalogy is somewhat accurate and you are quite right. If taken in the definitive form, Capitalism is simply trade.

          When I spout about capitalistics pigs, I AM (as you assumed) speaking of the massive corporations that abuse the system and consumers ni order to gain those profits. You know, good business bad business.

          I have actually grown to hate the wall street clowns as well as the posers in IT who think they have it all together and are the new world’s builders. I’ve seen this for many years and it gets worse every year.

          Yes Max, I was once VERY capitalistic, I would step on anyone to gain and did it quite sucessfully. After my rude awakening by the fire truck, I saw things in a much more passive light and have since started to have more concern for small and home based businesses.

          It’s the same with women who get all gussied up like the magazine covers they wish they really were and head out to the club to play the game. Give me a break, posers that wash the eight pounds of makeup off and put on their MacDonalds smock in the morning to go earn next weeks drinking money.

          Yet they all look the same on party night, just a game and a role to play. MUCH like many of todays so called ‘entrepeneurs’. THe capitalistic MINDSET that they have adopted prematurely is just a farce however it is a big beacon calling to the wannabe’s to joing the ranks. So what do they do?
          Buy a black leather car coat (just like EVERY wannabe)a pair of Dockers and pay over $1000/mo for a loft in trendyville.

          Th ecapitalists are feeding off the wannabe capitalists. It’s all such a sham, nobody has a personal identity onw and thus I am hating bug business for the way they rape and pillage their way to the top.

          Thanks for such a non-offensive observation Max, I am somewhat surprised to see it, even if it was inended as a bit of a prod.

          OM

        • #2690841

          Oz – No prod was intended

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          .

          And you actually took it exactly as I thought you would. (You capitalist pig.)

        • #2690839

          Touche

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          🙂

        • #2690838

          Oh, I love this..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          It’s so nice to see you two being nice to each other, at least kinda nice. It makes me all warm and fuzzy.

        • #2690834

          I thought you were

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          I always thought you were warm and fuzzy? (OOOOH!, BOOOOOO!)

          Hey and what’s with ‘eh?’ in your posts???

          Are you trying to muscle in on OUR slang?

          Perhaps you are a closet Canadian….(please don’t hit me).

        • #2691513
          Avatar photo

          Oh my God I stumbled into a

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          Care Bear meeting. With Maxwell and Oz getting on so well things just have to go wrong here as everyone else is just getting on too well.

          Col

        • #2691509

          Same as always Colin

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          Just like we have said over and over again.

          Soe of us will disagree strongly with each other and agree other times.

          Now Max has helped me with Q&A issues before, we have also exchanged non-vile comments regarding TR issues about teh forums, little glitches etc. We don’t agree politically that’s for sure.

          We do (lately) try and respect each other in such discussions and even though we push and prod we generally settle down before it goes too far.

          One thing I have always admired about the folk at TR, when someone like Garion comes in with his venemous BS, even those opppsed to each other will agree that such behaviour is not part of debating or discussing anything and is inappropriate. I don’t have the time to read such crap, I’d rather discuss something than sit like two monkeys throwing feces at each other.

          So although Max and I disagree on many things, we also learned to SOMEWHAT respect eaach others opinions. I try not to be so nasty in my replies and I think he has made an effort too. In most cases we just avoid each other if there’s nothing constructive to say.

          Who knows, one day I may even grow up.
          I do like the thought of a rainbow on my tummy though.

        • #2691503

          Oz..you silly canook..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          Of course I’m not trying to muscle in..y’all don’t have exclusive rights to eh, eh?

        • #2691502

          maecuff – proper grammar please????

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          .
          Y’all is singular.

          All y’all is plural.

          You’re welcome.

          (I’m a real stickler for proper grammar, y’all know.)

        • #2691501

          That’s good

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          At least we aren’t being tagged as the ones that say EH, no not Canada!

          That’s it, I starting to use ‘Y’all’ (probably get my ass kicked by an Angry Canadian thinking I’m American though).

          Last night there was a guy wearing a T-Shirt the print was too small and faded to read but in essence it was something like:

          Why do Canadian’s say ‘EH’and Amercans say HUH?

          then there was a long definistion of terms Canadaians replace with the word EH, such as Okay? Right? Copacetic? etc.

          The closing was “because it’s better than saying’HUH?’

          Something to that effect but actually humorous.

          So stick to your Huh’s and Y’alls and I’ll stick to my Eh’s, eh?

        • #2691499

          Max you’re kidding right?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          Are you serious that there is a PROPER plural and singular version of “y’all?”
          I suppose ‘You all’ and ‘you all’…….no still don’t see the difference but I’m sure it’s there somewhere.

          In Eastern Canada (maritimes Newfoundland and Nova Scotia) they say ‘You’s guys!” I always loved that one, “Hey, what’s you’s guy up to yanoo?” “goo git in dat dere boot and sail”
          “I’s the by who builds the boats and she’s tha girl that sails em”

          Or the famous Molson Canadian commercial, two Americans are in an office and are bugging a Canadian about his accent. “Noo Doot aboot it!” HA HA HA . The Canadian turns around and pulls the guys Jersey over his head and knocks him out like in a hockey fight or like Adam Sandler did in Happy Gilmore.

          Ah well, it’s all in fun anyway.

        • #2691496

          Max, if you must nit pick..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          y’all is singular..all y’all is plural.

        • #2691495

          Damn!!

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          Okay…I reread your post, and I just said exactly what you said..and all I can say is this, all y’all can kiss my ass…

        • #2691441

          WOW

          by thechas ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          After reading these last few postings, I may have to start making off the cuff comments more often when these off-topic threads get too heated.

          Imagine, me finding common ground between Max and Oz.

          Chas

        • #2691433

          HAHA

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          Don’t gwet too used to it, we are probaly both just having a good day, which seems to usually be only one or the other of us.

          In this case I think it is clear that we both agree the issue isn’t political, it was the insane postings by Garion as we have both been spanked for the same’acting up in class’in the past.

          It is now almost our DUTY to oppose such vile behaviour, if we can’t play too.

          Max didn’t make any harsh statements that I need to go over again, and I refrained from slagging Max’s comments as they were not directed at me or in correction of my opinions, we both know where each other stands and don’t need to rehash it everytime some idiot shoots his mouth off.

          Uh oh, I am starting to sound mature (I think).

          This must be stopped!!!

          pooh pooh bum bum.

          That’s better.;-)

        • #2691292
          Avatar photo

          Well an Aussie thing here

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          Hi ya all mates! How bout instead of slanging each other off we go down the local and get pissed together.

          Sure sounds like a lot more fun to me anyway and that way I’d get to meat you all.

          Col

        • #2691273

          Colin – Reply to an Aussie thing

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          .
          Personally speaking, I’d rather get plastered instead of pissed. And while I’d welcome an opportunity to meet many of you guys, I’m not sure I’d want anyone to “meat” me. (ohmygod – the images….)

        • #2691223

          Here we go again

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to CHAS!!!

          A bunch of It guys pining for drinks together and a great TR get together, yes I would have drinks with ANY of you guys and would probably have a real blast too. There is such a fun, intelligent and diverse crowd here that it would be an absolute hoot! What a backstage party you would all make!

          I’ll stand by Max on his MEAT comments, I don’t want to get any ‘meat’ and I wouldn’t take too well to being made into meat. Just playing with you Colin (bad choice of words after my previous comment I know).

          But yes, I would like more than anything to hit some PUB and see all the TR guys, the staff too so maybe would could straighten out a few issues, we could get pissed, hammered, plastered, gooned, faced, smashed, wasted, F***d right up, Shit faced, ruined, gonzo’d, liquored, looped, (and just to keep Guru happy) we could act like a bunch of muppets until we are all too knackered to be chuffed anymore.

          Cheers boys and girls, I’ll tip a few for you all at the lake this weekend. (Long weekend in BC, Victoria day on Monday, and I have already told everyone I won’t be available Friday).

    • #2690968

      Warning !!! Not for Americans or war supporters …

      by antipodes ·

      In reply to PICTURES OF IRAQ. (Warning: Not for Anti-Amercans or Anti war supporters)

      This is just to reassure you that most of the rest of the world does in fact hate America and your President.

      http://worldpeace.org.au/virtualelection.asp

      • #2690967

        LOLOLOL

        by garion11 ·

        In reply to Warning !!! Not for Americans or war supporters …

        ROFL, Ralph Nader eh? LOLOLOL. I can’t think of a single witty smarta** remark, cause I am lauging so hard.

      • #2690965

        Ok now I can talk

        by garion11 ·

        In reply to Warning !!! Not for Americans or war supporters …

        Keep up the good work junior. Noone here cares about this so called “world”. You attack our citizens, or our interests, we come and kick your ass. Plain and simple and god help you.

        • #2690899

          Please..please

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Ok now I can talk

          DO NOT assume that you can speak for all Americans. Because I can assure you that not all of us have the ‘we’re gonna kick your ass, and f*ck anybody who doesn’t like it’ attitude. In fact, I don’t know many people who feel that way. Of course the rest of the world will have an opinion on what we are doing. We ALL inhabit this planet, so it IS everyone’s business.

        • #2691506

          Knee slapper

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Please..please

          I think the real fun here maecuff is that we KNOW you don’t feel that way. In fact this guy is wondering why everyone has such a negative attitude of America, which I don’t see here other than a negative response to political actions.

          I can only say it is people EXACTLY like him, who CREATE this hatred for THAT form of American attitude.

          You have proven here that you are not like that and you have independant thought and feelings to many, as you realize you are entitled to.

          When we talk about the few who ruin it for the rest, your poster boy here is the perfect example.

          You are relatively reserved in your feelings and even though you do offer opinion, you keep your personal feelings somewhat reserved, which I can respect.

          Unfortunately, it’s the idiots who make all the noise around the world. Like he said, he gets this everywhere on OTHER bulletin Boards (kiddie chat rooms, ICQ etc.). This svenom gets spread by those who read it to others and surely enough small groups plot against the anal thought processs and then you have a whole room of people stongly opposing America, not just Garion. Because he spews such overpatriotic and arrogant, unqualified rubbish they now oppose America.

          “Stand in the place where you live, now face North.
          Think about direction, wonder why you haven’t before.
          Now stand in the place where you work, now face West.
          Think about the place where you live, wonder why you haven’t before.”

          Some people just need to understand the rest of the world instead of expecting the world to understand themselves.

        • #2691487

          Not a problem for me..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Knee slapper

          “Some people just need to understand the rest of the world instead of expecting the world to understand themselves”

          I know that the world REVOLVES around me.. so understanding isn’t an issue.

        • #2691478

          Great !

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Not a problem for me..

          Of course that’s what I meant all along. I know the sun sets in your ass and rises like a halo from your head each morning.

          As for me, I get the shits at night followed by a hangover in the morning.

        • #2691432

          Great Post

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Knee slapper

          Oz, I think you hit the issue right on the head.

          On the other hand, his problem could be that he is from New Jersey.

          (Sorry, I won’t make any New Jersey jokes.)

          New Jersey for years has been the brunt of jokes.

          Someone with a thin skin living in New Jersey gets their fuse lit on a regular basis.

          Anyhow, I agree that it just takes a few bad apples to perpetuate the ugly American image.

          Keep up the good work.

          Chas

        • #2691431

          Come November

          by antipodes ·

          In reply to Ok now I can talk

          While a lot of Americans are too lazy or too apathetic to vote, and others take pride in their constitutional right NOT to vote, I am predicting a record turn-out to REMOVE Bush from office.

        • #2691422

          Can I come and help REMOVE him?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Come November

          I would love nothing more than to polish up my Daytons so he can see his ass/stunned face as they get closer and closer.

          If he wants to talk about WMD, my tractor treads would help him see a reality to all his fears. A heavy pair of Daytons with tractor treads, now there’s WMD.

        • #2691321

          Too lazy or too apathetic to vote?

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to Come November

          wow, what country are you from that assumes with such arrogance about Americans? Are there more people like you around, besides some of the other trolls on TR. Can I be like you? Stupid with a touch of arrogance!!!

        • #2691311

          Statistically speaking…

          by mlayton ·

          In reply to Too lazy or too apathetic to vote?

          Voter turnout is around 50% or lower of registered voters. When you consider the enormous amount of Americans who are not even registered, the assumption that Americans are too apathetic to vote is probably pretty accurate.

        • #2691222

          You’re there already

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Too lazy or too apathetic to vote?

          Stupid with a TOUCH of arrogance??

          How about a complete and utter fool with absolutely NO idea what he is talking about ? A laighing stock and ebarassment to America ? The worst example of an American citizen on the planet? I don’t even think even your fellow countrymen would stand behind your fowl mouthed and ludicrous comments. In fact, I am sure many are extremely embarrassed to have you say that you are american, as they have already voiced here.

          Fortunately I am not one that will base my bias on ones country on a sole moron who thinks he speaks for everyone.

          You probably need to get through puberty, get away from your mom’s basement and work on gettnig laid or something (even second base should help you). You come across to me, and most likely the majority of TR’s members as a whiny little kid who hasn’t got the slightest clue what he’s on about.

          Put down the joystick, zip up your pants and go get yourself a life. It MAY do you a world of good.

          Does New Jersey know that their idiot has been awol?

        • #2692157

          I asked you not to reply to my posts

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to You’re there already

          but obviously you don’t listen. You also seem to be really obsessed with me as you mention me several times in several posts so you wanna just suck my cock since you like me so much?

        • #2692155

          Mind toning it down please?

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to I asked you not to reply to my posts

          “I asked you not to reply to my posts but obviously you don’t listen.”

          Really? Here’s the quote:

          “Please do me a favor and don’t post anymore responses to my threads ok? I will do the same to yours.”

          In case you don’t remember when you said it:

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=152201&messageID=1605391

          Now, to know that he read yours, you would have to have read his. I guess if you can’t uphold your own standards, you can’t blame him for not “doing you a favor”.

          And please tone down your language in this forum. I am asking just once.

        • #2692154

          No Replies

          by thechas ·

          In reply to I asked you not to reply to my posts

          If you don’t want anyone to reply to your posts, don’t make any posts.

          Oz may be obnoxious at times.
          But, he usually makes valid observations.

          Believe it or not, Oz used to be more obnoxious than he is now.

          Still, even at his worst, Oz is FAR more civilized than you act.

          Heck, Oz is even able to evaluate facts and come to logical conclusions.

          You however, seem to be only interested in hearing from people who support your own narrow view of world events.

          Some of your comments make me ashamed to admit that I have been to New Jersey, and know good people who call the “Garden State” home.

          If you are looking for a forum with no centrist or liberal views, this is not it.

          KEEP LOOKING!

          Chas

        • #2692080

          I see someone already asked…

          by mlayton ·

          In reply to I asked you not to reply to my posts

          … and let me echo the sentiment. Your language in these posts is offensive. As I have stated before, it’s the language your posts contain that make you seem not too bright, rather than the content. It does nothing to further your cause. Grow up.

          Some people try hard to be respectful, professional and courteous, even when delivering a dissenting opinion. I urge you to try it, I guarantee respect delivered to others will in turn get respect back.

        • #2691221

          Sorry I forgot to address your questions.

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Too lazy or too apathetic to vote?

          No I am not Canadian, I cannot vote on a federal level, only Provincial, so I am neither too lazy OR apathetic. Unlike those that came to North America from Europe, including your mommy and daddy or grandpappy (no matter what you have been told, they didn’t come from the cabbage patch)I have chosen to retain citizenship from my country of origin, I was born and mainly raised in the UK, and yes I am welcome pretty much anywhere without needing to conform, including the US.

          I retain my British citizenship as I also do a lot of work in England and find it more tax friendly to not bring money back to Canada as my industry is HEAVILY taxed if working offshore.

          You could NEVER be like me or even slightly similar to me, unless you go buy brain first and get a taste of reality. I don’t have oversized white orbs for eyes, I see sunlight and go outside where the real world is.

        • #2692158

          Common knowledge

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Too lazy or too apathetic to vote?

          I always thought everyone knew that most Americans were either too lazy or too apathetic [I suppose there is a difference, ever so slight though it may be, in this context] to vote.

          So many people aren’t even registered to vote, and so many who are registered still do not.

          OK, maybe they’re just stupid.

        • #2692153

          Glad many don’t vote

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Too lazy or too apathetic to vote?

          If I recall correctly, the USA has the lowest voter turnout of any Democracy.

          When you look at how uninformed the average American is, it is a good thing that so many don’t bother to vote.

          In my “middle class” neighborhood, fewer than 50% of the residents subscribe to the local newspaper.

          Over 10% don’t even bother to bring in the FREE weekly paper.

          Many people do everything they can to avoid ANY news programming. (Well, except for the sorts and weather.)

          I can’t quote specifics, but I believe that less than 10% of registered voters can accurately name their State and Federal elected officials.

          For local leaders, the numbers are near 1%.

          While I don’t think we should restrict who can vote, it would be interesting to see how the average voter would score on a test of the campaign issues.

          Chas

        • #2692138

          Election Test – Ten Question

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Glad many don’t vote

          .
          1. Do you believe in:

          A) A person taking full and total self-responsibility for him or her self.
          B) Government caring for my every need from birth to death.
          C) I’m so confused, I only think what Dan Rather tells me to think.
          D) I don’t give a rat’s rear end. All I want is another beer.

          2. Do you believe that it’s a good thing for the government to take money from the person who earned it and give it to a person who didn’t earn it?

          A) Absolutely not
          B) Absolutely yes.
          C) What’s in it for me?
          D) Will it pay for my beer?

          3. Do you believe that American interests trumps United Nations interests?

          A) Absolutely yes – American interests come first and foremost
          B) Definitely no – We all need to be a “community of nations”.
          C) Trump? You mean “The Donald” owns the United Nations?
          D) Does it mean I can I get cheaper beer?

          4. Do you believe in maintaining the strongest military on the planet?

          A) Yes.
          B) No.
          C) Can’t we just all get along?
          D) Can I buy my beer at the NCO club?

          5. What’s your opinion of American business?

          A) The business of America is business.
          B) Greedy “big business” destroys America.
          C) I think people should mind their own business.
          D) Budweiser, Miller, Coors – They’re all cool.

          6. When it cones to equality, I believe in:

          A) Equality of opportunity.
          B) Equality of outcome.
          C) Equality for animals.
          D) Equality in the price of beer.

          7. The Earth is:

          A) More resilient and much more powerful than mankind.
          B) Fragile and must be protected at all costs.
          C) The Starship Enterprise’s home world.
          D) A new brand of beer.

          8. The war on terrorism

          A) Must be won at all costs.
          B) Can only be avoided by negotiatimg with terrorists.
          C) Didn’t that happen a hundred years ago?
          D) Hey, chill out and have another beer.

          9.) The President’s actions must

          A) Defend the honor and protect the interests of the USA
          B) Always consult with the United Nations
          C) Hey, sex is a private matter.
          D) Always have a good selection of beer.

          10. What makes America great?

          A) The people
          B) The government
          C) The Simpsons
          D) Duh – The beer.

          If all your answers were an A, vote for the Republican candidate.

          If all your answers were B, vote for the Democrat candidate.

          If all your answers were C, go kill yourself.

          If you had a mixture of answers, you don’t know if you’re coming or going, you have the understanding of a rock, and your next goal in life should be to get a clue.

          If all your answers were D, go have another beer. After all, it’s election day.

        • #2692129

          I enjoy your wit

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Election Test – Ten Question

          While I do not 100 percent agree with the choices, I appreciate the humorous intent.

          I do suspect that you agree with me that the most dangerous group of people in a democracy is the uninformed voter.

          Chas

        • #2692120

          LMAO

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Election Test – Ten Question

          Seriously Max, THAT WAS COOL!!

          I just got in from watching a kids baseball game and got pulled from the stands to ump at the plate. Well these kids are 8-12 and the ISSUES man, I’ll tell you. Parents REALLY need to let their kids have a life sometimes.

          Anyhow, I came gome to this treat and immediately got a pen and paper (a l\short stick full of ink and a VERY thin layer of dried wood pulp).

          Before I reveal my answers may I say that this REALLY belongs on a Republican website somewhere?

          SO with a grain of salt I digress, I must “have the understanding of a rock, and your [my] next goal in life should be to get a clue.”

          AND!!!!

          I’m gonna have a beer too!

          1) A

          2)N/A I understand (Canadian)law enough to know that this question is leading in it’s provided responses.
          Therefore, under US law I wish to plead the 5th and refuse to answer this question as my reply may incriminate me.

          3) B – in the sense that this pertains to a gobal effort against terrorism and the invasion was not ‘out of the question’ by allies.

          4)B – an allied force should suffice. Military SIZE is one thing, ‘might’ is a poor definition that almost implies a need to display your capabilities.

          5) I could also plead the 5th here but I wil explain (sorry):
          I will say ‘Eh’ as this question is also reflected in number 6, and that is equal opportunity for all to succeed. I simply oppose the mentality of some BIG businesss that becomes overly greedy and in turn exploits the workers involved or the consumers themselves.

          6) A, of course I am sure fundamentally that is the aim of all parties. NO matter who it is in office, they all help themselves first and foremost though.

          7) A&B (uh oh, time to get the tinfoil hat and wait for the mothership): I think it is our duty to the rest of the Earth’s life forms that we respect the air and wildlife around us. Even without the big ozone scare or ‘global warming’ if you wish, we still should show some compassion for the animals in our forests, the birds who breath our air, and the sea life who’s habitat we are destroying each day. Yes I believe that the world can and will survive. I don’t think WE can or any of the other billions of life forms upon it can though unless we at least respect the water, air and soil that we all need to survive and prosper. When I think of smog and pollution, some big hole in the VERY thin layer that protects us from the void barely comes into play. It won’t matter if we are all dead anyway. I think of the LIFE on the planet that is directly effected by our mistakes.

          8)Well A&D PLUS I’ll take the 5th, leading question again.

          9) A&B Of course it is in the People’s best interests that the president has close alliances and lives up to it’s expectations. If YOU had been against the invasion and Germany said “screw you we’re going in anyway, you are all a bunch of spineless clowns” I think your views here would be MUCH different. It has to be seen on a larger scale than JUST the US at this point, this IS a global effort and everyone else has come to help regardlesss of your unsupported action.

          10) This one was EASY and very funny too, I like the American beer chuckle. I MUST say ‘A’ ANY country is great because of its people (silly, no brainer).
          But to suggest that YOUR beer is what makes you great, well Max, I am trying not to put down America or it’s people but DAMN, that’s the nastiest piss water I have ever had the dismal experience of having pass my lips. You could drink a case while waiting for the traffic light on your way to a job interview and nobody would be the wiser. No wonder bottled WATER caught on so well.

          Anyhow, I’ll say it again “THAT WAS GREAT!” Find a website you can contribute it too, I’m sure Julian would post it. The White House shoudl have that online (ANY of the various White House sites).

          Thanks Max

        • #2692078

          Hee hee hee

          by mlayton ·

          In reply to Election Test – Ten Question

          That was a good morning chuckle, but I must echo the sentiments that American beer? I don’t think so – although now that I think about it, perhaps the point is that since the “D” answers are less globally aware so they think it’s the best beer? My vote is German or Begian – although I had a good experience with an African beer once.

        • #2692036

          Chas – I agree

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Election Test – Ten Question

          .
          Glad you got a chuckle out of it. Actually, I started out trying to seriously address your earlier comment about a voter uninformed on “the issues”, as you put it, and it just kinda’ flowed into the form you saw, so I ran with it.

          Since I truly believe that the real issues are deeper than just “the issues of the day”, I certainly do agree than an uninformed voter is indeed a dangerous voter, because he or she could be easily influenced with half-truths or mistruths, or at least be denied the whole truth. And I might suggest that the majority of people who DO vote, don’t have a really good grasp of the whole picture. So there are the “issues of the day”, you know, the ones that are debated on the Sunday morning shows and make the headlines; and then there are the real underlying issues, ones that hardly ever get a mention.

          For example, do you believe in block grants to the states, so states can run their own welfare programs (generally Republican), or the federal government maintaining control over all welfare distributions (generally Democrat)? (I’m simply paraphrasing, for illustration purposes, an issue that has been debated in the past.) Well heck, what about the REAL underlying issue? Is it acceptable for the federal government to seize the personal property (in the form of money) of the person who earned it, for the purpose of giving it to a person who didn’t earn it? The underlying issues, like that one, rarely get debated. And when they do they are demagogued to death, so that in the end the person espousing such a stance is labeled as mean-spirited, wants dirty air, polluted water, and loves to see kids dying in the streets. And that’s simply ludicrous.

          Yes, I agree 100%. Almost all people who don’t vote, don’t have a clue as to the issues – neither the issues of the day or the underlying issues. I would further suggest that a majority of people who DO vote, don’t have a good grasp of the real underlying issues – the “big picture”. And I do think it’s a damn shame.

          By the way, have you ever seen this Web site on “the issues”? (The “issues of the day”, not the underlying issues.) It’s really pretty good.

          http://www.issues2000.org/default.htm

          http://tinyurl.com/2aogf

          Later…

        • #2692030

          Chas – by the way. . .

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Election Test – Ten Question

          .
          If you’re interested to know, out of all the people/parties on that Web site, I probably fall in line with the positions of Alan Keyes more than anyone else. (Not all, buy most.)

          The Libertarian Party is consistent with many of my principles, but I believe that as a party, especially in today’s climate, they take “Libertarian” to an unacceptable extreme. Besides, they have a long wat to go to ever become a viable political force.

          Later…

        • #2691921

          Good one, Max …

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Election Test – Ten Question

          It will be posted on my website, as Oz suggests.

          But hey ! How do teetotallers answer the “D” options? Can they have a Coke instead?

        • #2691916

          Julian

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Election Test – Ten Question

          A teetotaler who HAPPENED to have a beer would NORMALLY (in he was a kind citizen and a true patriot)offer his beer to a fellow such as myself.

          Now what scares me is that after serious thought and deciding NOT to take the beer on some of the questions, I get to number ten to find out that Max is talking about American beer all along, in which case I would gladly pass it to a small child (infant perhaps) that may actually gain the benefit of a temporary buzz. It’s always Queation 10 that get you on these things. Like the old, “read all the question first before answering”, question 10 is DO NOT ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS ON THE PAGE. It’s amazing how many people fill in their names, answer all these math questions etc before getting to number 10. If only I had remembered, I knew there was a catch.

      • #2690964

        November

        by garion11 ·

        In reply to Warning !!! Not for Americans or war supporters …

        You will understand why come November why I was laughing so hard today. But seriously though keep up the good work, that was a very informative website junior.

      • #2690951

        Aunt P

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Warning !!! Not for Americans or war supporters …

        How ya been?!?

        Well as you can see we have a new bouncing baby boy on TR. I wouldn’t take too much offense, so far it has barely offered anything more than the od goo-goo ga-ga and a few F-off’s to the wolrd, which he feels America has saved, YES, another live one with no education.

        I think I’ve had about enough of it myself and I’m sure everyone else has too.

        Well maybe another thread or two just to see if it improves.

        Pop by more often “Junior”.;-)

        • #2690934

          Thanks Oz

          by antipodes ·

          In reply to Aunt P

          When I first joined in these discussions, I was meek, humble and polite. I spoke as I would like other people to speak to me.

          However, as I have been following these discussions, it is now clear that rudeness, arrogance and stupidity get the most attention and score the highest marks.

          So I will be a little more outspoken in my future postings.

        • #2691395

          Just remember

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Thanks Oz

          This discussion was actually an wild exception to the rule. Someone WAY outo of line was stirring the crap here. Generally we will be a LITTLE more tolerant of each other, I mean even those that I don’t get along with well have become almost like old friends they’ve been here so long.

          There is a certain unspoken etiquette here, but people will be quite OUTSPOKEN when the line isn’t toed with some respect. Not that you have to agree with everyone please share you comments whether for or against an issue without worrying what the reponse is, but then again it is just a little personal respect for each other that counts. You don’t have to agree but after a while you will learn to have SOME respect for pretty much everyone over time, regardless of opinion. Others come and go but you know by now who’s always here and either helping or supporting discussions, whether for or against yourself.

          Just have fn with it, there’s a REAL motley crew here,

    • #2691887

      Discussion tangents ….

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to PICTURES OF IRAQ. (Warning: Not for Anti-Amercans or Anti war supporters)

      How interesting it is that the tangents that spin off from discussion topics so often lead to a completely different line of thought and thus different viewpoints and data.

      If “Garion11” had just posted the “nice” website without the disclaimer, the discussion would no doubt have taken a different direction and may well have petered out quite quickly.

      And if “antipodes” had not brazenly criticised American voters, we would have missed out on a very interesting set of statistics and opinions.

      So thank you Garion. You came to us to make trouble, but instead have bonded us more closely together. (however your presence will not be missed if we don’t hear from you again).

      And good work, antipodes. Keep stirring the pot. You never know what you will brew up!

      • #2691748

        Yeah I know

        by garion11 ·

        In reply to Discussion tangents ….

        This thread was hijacked by all the trolls. It wasn’t for them, hence the name of the title, but oh well! There used to be a LOT more Pro-American people on here when I became a member 3-4 years ago. Its a shame they are all gone.

        Just do me a favor and don’t post anymore to my threads and I will do the same.

        • #2691728

          Oh, good…

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Yeah I know

          “Just do me a favor and don’t post anymore to my threads and I will do the same.”

          Garion11 won’t be posting to his own threads anymore.

        • #2691712

          Excuse Me

          by thechas ·

          In reply to Yeah I know

          Who made a post that was anti-American?

          Anti-War, yes.
          In opposition to President Bush, yes.
          Anti-foul language, yes.

          I suppose however, that I can take solice in being described as a troll.

          The story in Michigan is that God built the Mackinaw Bridge so that the trolls could get to heaven.

          Since I enjoy visiting the upper peninsula, but was not born there, I guess I qualify as a troll.

          Chas

        • #2691691

          I had no idea..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Yeah I know

          That hijacked = not agreeing with everything Garion11 says. And if you don’t want people to post, then don’t post anything. Do you ever go back and read what you write? How can you read it without cringing? You do realize you sound like a child, right?

        • #2691585

          Sigh

          by aquaris ·

          In reply to I had no idea..

          Since its already a ‘ PRE-Qualified ” Topic

          my…comments…

          Only histroy will Tell…

          just wait a couple of decades…

    • #2691536

      no cover up

      by hi_aftab ·

      In reply to PICTURES OF IRAQ. (Warning: Not for Anti-Amercans or Anti war supporters)

      the lies by bush cohorts about WMD have come true? do not try to police the world!

    • #2737563
      Avatar photo

      Garion11 You may find this interesting

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to PICTURES OF IRAQ. (Warning: Not for Anti-Amercans or Anti war supporters)

      In a back issue of New Scientist I found the Following article its on page 34 of the 15 May 2004 Issue Numbered 2447.

      It is titled {The Making of a Suicide Bomber} and is written by Michael Bond.

      Basically it is looking for an answer to what type of person tends to end up as a Suicide Bomber and how they are educated {Brain Washed or put into such a position that they can no longer refuse.}

      Now there are quite a few interesting facts listed in this article and the first one that struck me was the fact that these people have only ever attacked a Democracy they have never been used in a country where there is a Dictator. There is a very brief history about this type of thing covering most of the well known incidents that have occurred and then the article moves on to what they describe as “Modern Suicide Bombers” and instead of the stereotype that is presented by the powers that be as disturbed people they are in actual fact almost anyone. They do however have one common thing and that is that they feel that they are doing the correct thing in an attempt to Liberate their country from a perceived oppressor. It goes on to say that more than 50% of these people have a higher education and are not the mindless masses who are simply lead by their noses into believing what they are told but that they actually make informed choices usually against overwhelming odds.

      While this article doesn’t go quite as far as I would like what it does show is that most of these people are what would be called in America as “Patriots” who are doing what they consider to be in the best interests of their country.

      Incidental there is also a list of all the major suicide bombings since 1980 by name of organization Country where the attack took place and number of actual attacks of this type. It is headed as “Leading Perpetrators of Suicide Attacks Since 1980” and was compiled by a Robert Pape of the University of Michigan so while he may be a “Bleeding Heart Liberal {which I for one certainly don’t know}” it is compulsive reading.

      Maybe you would like to have a look and tell me exactly where the author has gone wrong.

      Col

    • #2737439

      why do not think as human and not american , australian or french…?

      by cast ·

      In reply to PICTURES OF IRAQ. (Warning: Not for Anti-Amercans or Anti war supporters)

      before i introduce myself , i m french but i
      study in uk for the moment and i am not
      nationalist netheir patrotic

      The war in Irak is a war where everyday people
      die , american , iraken or other nationality ,
      but before all they are human people with a
      family like everybody in this world

      A war is something horrible , aand i think
      common people do not understand this
      My greats parents lived during the second world
      war in France , they never wanted to answer my
      question abut this war , they were compltetly
      sad when as a child i asked about the war ,
      everybody in the world study war in book or see
      war in movie or at television but war is
      destruction , death and horror , and not a
      “show”

      A war cannot be peaceful , nobody can come in a
      contry killed the enemy and create peace with
      gun or bomb

      In a war people die , this people had friends
      father , children , girlfriend…

      So before saying something like , stupid
      american they did war , or stupid french they do
      not want to make war , and create a conflict
      based on natinality , think about this people
      who die everyday for something they think good ,
      for freedom , peace or religion

      The war in Irak is in the past , every conflict
      in the world based on this is stupid and make me
      sick , the present is now the creation of peace
      for HUMAN PEOPLE and if we are human we can’t
      stay blind in front of this , we can t hide
      ourselves behind a religion or a nationality ,
      we can’t use war to be proud , to make money ,
      or to create more conflict

      Question , how many human lives on earth ?

      do not forget people like you and me , like
      yours friends your father die everyday in Iraq
      ..

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