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PICTURES OF IRAQ. (Warning: Not for Anti-Amercans or Anti war supporters)

By Garion11 ·
Pictures that the media doesn't show you. The REAL stories of Iraq.

Please copy and paste this link and feel free to comment. Thanks :).

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Chas - thanks for the reply

by maxwell edison In reply to A Contrast

Do you know how often people like me are accused of "blindly" following....?

It's been done directly and indirectly here at TR, and it's common in editorials and opinion pieces that generalize about people who support the Iraq war effort. It's not accurate, and I'm growing tired of it. However, I certainly accept your explanation, and I'm sure it wasn't intended to offend.

On your Iraq prediction (reply to a different message) and democracy "seed planting", while I understand your sentiments, I don't necessarily agree. Japan is an example of a nation (and a culture) that transformed inself (with a little prodding) from an Emperor ruled nation, one deep in spirituality and tradition, to one of the most successful free-market democracies in the world. The same thing could certainly happen in Iraq, and I think it will. After all, the alternative is more of the same upheaval that's plagued the region for hundreds (or thousands) of years, and the entire globe over the past fifty or more.

I believe it will succeed because it must succeed. And from my estimation, many, if not most, of the people against this effort, have a vested interest in failure. I have to wonder why that isn't as clear to others as it is to me.

Nonetheless, I apologize if it sounded like I was spouting off at you. It wasn't at you, per se, but just some spouting in general.

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by TheChas In reply to Chas - thanks for the rep ...

Don't get me wrong Max,

I hope that democracy does take hold in Iraq.

I just don't believe that the average US citizen is aware of just what, and how long of an effort will be required on our part to allow democracy to take hold.

I'm also not sure that the Iraqi people WANT a democracy strongly enough to work for it.

With both the religious leaders in Iraq, and the leaders of neighboring countries being opposed to an open democracy in Iraq, I am not as optimistic as you that a stable democracy will take root.

Time will tell.


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by voldar In reply to Chas - thanks for the rep ...

Although I agree with all you say about Japan, I don't think it is a good example regarding Iraq. I know that I may sound odd, but I don't think that "the democracy" we "know" is the best for Iraq or any other countries in the world. What is good for a country is not good for an other. I am 100% with you when you say (you did not said in fact, but you thought about) that some guiding rules should be established, but I think here is where we have to stop.
From my life experience, when you force someone to do something his not YET prepared to do, he will very soon become the fervent opposant of your ideas. This is something we all have to learn sooner or later.
Democracy developed in Europe for 2000 years (starting in Greece), how can you imagine you can shift that onto something very different (who has also 2000 or more long history)? And to do it in 1 to 2 years!! Never will be accomplished. Remember one thing - Japan, before 1900 was very little know to European or Americans. And they had 50 years to build and to create their society (with a large help from US and European countries), their glamorous and very competitive society.
But you have to remember one thing also - they REALLY WANTED TO CHANGE! And they did that! I worked with Japanese, and even now, the "boss" is "God" for almost every working people from there. There is no shame or something to blame, it is just the fact, and I understand very well this fact (the principle of ?samurai? (to serve your master) is still there, and I am glad for them they still have it). Have you ever heard about a work-strike demanding the "boss" for working for more time without pay? No, only in Japan!
What I am trying to say is that even though you may think that Japan is a democracy, in fact it is not the American democracy, but it is what suits best "its needs", its visions of democracy.
This is why I say that Iraq will surely transform into a "democracy", but it will be "its own democracy". As it is France or Sweden - both democratic countries, but in the same time so different. The most important thing are the only few rules (the BASIC RULES I like to call them) that should guide the society, the rest, it is up to each society apart to establish. Romania, Bulgaria and any other eastern European country (I will never understand why they call them "eastern" when they are in fact in the center of Europe) developed themselves towards democracy in the last 14 years, and they have a lot more to accomplished, (and it is not 1 or 2 years I am talking about), but when rules exist, the rest will come sooner or later, that's without any doubt.
So, my point here is: don't expect to see democracy in Iraq in the next 5 years or even 10 years, this is a process that takes longer. But sooner or later, a positive change will be noticed. And THAT, I will salute!

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Well said Vlad

by Oz_Media In reply to Chas - thanks for the rep ...

That was a great and very logical response. Points I have often thought of before. You cannot make a country "Americanized" (or Canadianized or any other 'ized') by chopice unless that's exactly what they want. A mirror is impossible it cannot be done and is futile to even attempt. These poeple will develop their OWN government and through a democratic system will vote in exactly HOW their government will be run. Do NOT expect it to be anything like American democracy, it can't be. It will be a democratic SYSTEM, but not in the sense that YOU may think a democracy is operated.

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I was gonna stay away from this one

by MallardtooXX In reply to A Contrast

I cannot help but chime in on this sub-thread, it is too important not to. I think you are casting a pejorative light on the American people with your last two posts. While I know there are many viewpoints that are in existence here I think there is one that is being ignored; we as a country, no matter race, creed, or religion need to remember how we came to be in this position in the first place. It is not a matter of whether or not there are fair weather patriots amongst us, nor is it a matter of hawks vs. doves; it is a matter of to say you support the troops means you support the troops. America was founded on the blood of every generation who has lived here, if not for those people you and I and max would not enjoy the freedoms that we do today. I am not saying that this issue is one that anyone person can resolve, nor am I saying that either party has the 100% complete approach but to say that people are blindly following a president, or to compare the majority of the population to sports fans is saying the American people as a whole are just plain stupid.
I myself am offended at that statement, as a matter of fact I am surprised you would post as much as you have here. I have and still do respect your opinion in this forum, however I really think you need to look inward here and see if it is the populace that is wrong. I am not picking any kind of fight but really this is something that has irked me, not just from you, but also from many people here and has driven me away from these types of conversations both here and in the real world. It is not a matter of right or wrong anymore, it is not a matter of whether someone supports the president (blindly or otherwise) it is a matter of seeing the flag draped coffins and knowing that there were many before, and there will be many after, who loved this country, and her people, enough to pay a price most people are not willing to pay.
I guess what I am trying to say is this; the time for action never passes, it only passes you by. I for one am glad there are people alive today who can make the tough decisions and people who can sacrifice more than I so I can go to bed at night knowing the only danger I face is my drive to work in the morning. If that makes me a fair weather patriot, or a blind follower so be it; if it keeps my children and my wife safe from the fate that the world community faces I am willing to be called names.


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by TheChas In reply to I was gonna stay away fro ...


I understand and respect your position and comments.

As I stated to Max, my comment was meant to contrast the fact that not everyone who is opposed to the war is anti-American.
Nor is everyone who supports the war a patriot.

I do believe that one can support out troops without supporting the war in Iraq.
One of my co-workers is a case in point.
He has 2 sons who are Marines that have served in Iraq.
They have his full unquestioning support.
However, he is one of the staunchest opponents of this war that I know.
While he is concerned about the health and wellbeing of his sons, he is convinced that we invaded Iraq at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons.
He is firmly convinced that every action of the Bush administration is an attempt to manipulate the US population.

Let me restate my last 2 comments from the above post:

Just because someone is opposed to the war in Iraq, they are not necessarily anti-American.

Just because someone follows the President without question, they are not automatically a patriot.

I have seen many people who did not support President Bush until after he started deploying our armed forces around the world, and the troops won a few battles.
Many of these people never voiced support for previous Presidents.
These people are NOT willing to make a personal sacrifice for the cause of freedom.
They do like the fact that our troops are kicking butt.
If not "fair weather patriots" what would you call them?

The vocal active war protesters are making a personal sacrifice for the cause of freedom.
The reactions to the terror attacks of 9/11 have resulted in the most restrictions on freedom in the US since World War 2.

I do NOT believe that everyone (or even the majority) of people who support the President and the war do so blindly.

If you evaluate the information, and make an informed choice to support the President and the war, you are not "blindly" following.


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Wrong use of Patriot

by TheChas In reply to I was gonna stay away fro ...


As I pondered your comments, I came to the conclusion that there is an error in the use of Patriots to describe the group of people I am referring to.

The use of the term Patriot by these fair weather supports of US policy belittles the sacrifices of the true Patriots.

I will start calling this group of wanna-bies by another term.
"Flag wavers" comes to mind.

Does that sound too offensive?


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What allies?

by Garion11 In reply to Hate Speech

I thought the allies were with us? Hmm..Australia, Portugal, England, Japan, Kuwait, Canada, Saudi Arabia (they are all helping in rebuilding Iraq). OOOOOH!!!!, you mean, France and Germany? OH, I thought there would be so many more countries that refused to help us (the ones that CAN anyway).

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You conveniently left out Spain

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to What allies?

Perhaps you just don't want to be reminded what happened there and how that act of terrorism lead to a change in Government.

Or maybe it just slipped your mind as that didn't happen on American soil.


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Oh no,

by Garion11 In reply to You conveniently left out ...

Spain did its part and left. The change of government was because its citizens became scared of the fundamentalists and voted off the ruling party to appease the terrorists. They didn't want to fight. I am not sure if American wants an ally whose a coward. I feel sorry for its citizens. They have no pride or honor. Almost remind me of the French.

Isn't that what you are waiting for? Another attack on American soil? So you greedily hope that Bush gets voted out or something?? and also point out and say WE TOLD YOU SO! I always wonder what happens if your country gets an attack like 9/11. Will your countrymen rise and meet the challange? or whimper in cowardness like Spain?

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