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President Obama is doing a grave disservice by. . . . . .

By maxwell edison ·
.....his continued rhetoric on how bad the economy is and on how long it will take for recovery (years, not months).

.....claiming that our economy is in the worst shape since the great depression.

The former will only serve to prolong the lagging economy, and, in essence, help this self-fulfilling prophecy become reality. The latter is simply a blatant lie, not even close to being true.

The prophecy of gloom and doom is alive and well. Instilling financial fear in people is not only doing them a grave disservice, but it will actually keep people and businesses from fully participating in the economy, thereby contributing to its further slide and making recovery more difficult.

Their solutions of more government spending, more government debt, and more control over business and people will only serve to make people more dependent, less free, and less prosperous. Look at how far down the United States has fallen on the Index of Economic Freedom over the years. Our national goal should be a return to the top of that list; and we should let that goal drive the policy decisions.

Less government, not more; more personal responsibility, not less; more economic freedom, not less; these are the only long-term solutions out of the financial mess that's been growing since the failed policies of Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal drove the first nail into the coffin of economic freedom. People are most free when they're most economically free. This growing financial dependence on government only tightens the shackles of economic slavery.

President Obama ran on a policy position of change and hope. However, the prophets of doom and gloom in the Democratic Party will never change; all of their policy positions are based on instilling fear and uncertainty. There's no change taking place, only more of the same: more government spending; more government debt; more government control. And where's the hope in such things?

I avoid negative people in the workplace like the plague. They're a cancer on an entire organization.

I avoid negative people in life. They're a real drag, and they only try to find others to share in their self-inflicted misery.

Let's take it to the next level.

I abhor negative people in government. They don't govern, but rather become demagogues and prophets of doom and gloom. They don't lead, but rather pander. They don't take or preach responsibility, but rather prefer to place blame, make excuses, and advance class envy. They don't encourage excellence, but rather convince so many into becoming victims - self-inflicted victims.

Rhetoric has trumped reality. Fear has trumped hope. And in the quest to gain even more political power, the notion that nothing changes has trumped change.

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Hey Max.

by DHCDBD In reply to President Obama is doing ...

What led to the depression that FDR's "New Deal" came from. Was that also the result of Government interference in the market, or was that unrestrained capitalism, or something else entirely. Please don't feed us WW1.

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A better question is. . . . .

by maxwell edison In reply to Hey Max.

.....what did the New Deal really achieve?

Regardless of the indoctrination school children receive (including ones from my own generation), the programs of the New Deal didn't (financially) solve a darn thing. What was it that ultimately led that era of America out of the depression - the one that lasted throughout the entire twelve years of FDR's administration (with the possible exception of the last two)?

As to your question, what caused the Great Depression? Heck, economists even today can't agree on all the reasons. However, your simplistic reason (unrestrained capitalism) is far from the correct one.


By the way, as people so often do, don't mistake less government to mean no government.

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What did it?

by DHCDBD In reply to A better question is. . . ...

>"what did the New Deal really achieve?"

The Tennessee Valley Authority, new hydro electric dams, roads, etc.

>"What was it that ultimately led that era of America out of the depression..."

WWII and the building of America's manufacturing base that resulted from the war effort.

>"As to your question, what caused the Great Depression? Heck, economists even today can't agree on all the reasons."

Try the stock market crumbling combined with the dust bowl. This was an era of unrestrained capitalism which the downfall of the stock market was the beginning. The primary means of income to that point had been agriculture. When the dust bowl occurred it destroyed the primary means of sustenance for a large segment of the population. When the dust bowel occurred the stock market was largely recovering, but was again destroyed. Heck, grade school stuff.

Liken the crumbling housing market to the dust bowel, the sustenance is destroyed but from another direction; the stock market speaks for itself. What led to the housing burst that is also present in the stock market? Could it be two things that are related? Unrestrained greed (capitalism) and unrestrained greed by the banks and mortgagors selling assets for unrealistic prices? This unrestrained venture marketing could be the cause of both - meaning those who venture to make money at all costs.

Around the time that the depression occurred the Reserve board was created to attempt to control the venture risks of banks. This in turn was controlled by the fox in the hen house, the banking industry. Therefore a lack of oversite. Industry has proven time and again that it is unable to police itself. One possible solution is to require all venturists to put up 40 - 50% of the costs and show sufficient resources to cover a 100% loss. No can do, then no can invest.

I firmly believe in the words of, I believe Thomas Jefferson:" the government that governs the least, governs the best." Without that little thought, what do we have? One example that comes to mind is the F.D.I.C. seizing Washington Mutual and selling it to J.P. Morgan for 1/10 the value of the assets. However, there are some things that government can do better than individuals.

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I'm not sure what your point is

by maxwell edison In reply to What did it?

But you are correct in classifying your reasons for the Great Depression and your list of New Deal programs as Grade School stuff, because that's the indoctrination I mentioned - in its simplistic best. It all goes well beyond simplistic Grade School stuff.

I also often repeat Jefferson's maxim, "the government that governs the least, governs the best."

But still, what point are you trying to make? Your message, on one hand, seems like an attempt to justify big government, but on the other hand, it espouses less government (in Jefferson's words).

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Points being:

by DHCDBD In reply to I'm not sure what your po ...

1) You are needlessly attacking a policy that is not yet in effect.

2) Incorrectly placing blame.

3) Justifying the status quo.

4) Failing to look at the root causes.

5) Failing to look at solutions that may work.

6) The new one: using propaganda.

While the victors do write the history, there is always some element of the truth that survives and is difficult to hide.

In the case of the economy, my position is that Obama is caving to the financial industry and there MAY be no change. I am certainly not seeing anything that indicates a rebuilding of a manufacturing base. I also see no real effort to control capital ventures. The two issues that are most closely related in history. I also see the current war effort as unwinable and foolish.

If you wish to continue, please start a new sub thread.

I do not necessarily disagree with you, but I do think differently. If you are willing to continue, I am willing.

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I'll reply tomorrow. I'm kinda' tired right now.

by maxwell edison In reply to Points being:

The reply to your message deserves much more than a fleeting comment. Stay tuned, and I'll reply tomorrow in a new thread.

I welcome honest and genuine dialogue.

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The primary contributors to the Great Depression

by NickNielsen In reply to Hey Max.

As I remember my History of Economics, the bursting of the stock market bubble in 1929, the Smoot-Hawley tariffs and the economic repercussions thereof, and an extremely tight money policy from the Federal Reserve combined with other non-economic factors (e.g. the Dust Bowl) to create the perfect economic storm.

My personal take on the whole bailout thing is that if the President and Congress want to stimulate the economy and have to do more than just give us back our money, do the following:
* Refund the net tax paid for every individual who files a 2008 tax return with net taxable income under the 2008 median; use all returns filed by April 15 to set that median. No money to anybody above the median and no money to people who didn't pay net tax.
* Take what's left of the TARP fund (a few hundred billion?) and allocate it to the individual states for infrastructure improvement: highways, bridges, etc.
* Prosecute for fraud the corporate executives who used bailout funds to take trips, issue bonuses or obtain perks. Their companies can't be that bad off if they've got enough money to waste on that stuff.

Actually, giving money to people who care so little about the businesses they are running that the first thing they think of with cash in hand is bonuses or perks is flat stupid. Of course, I don't think anybody on TR has ever accused the US Congress of even marginal intelligence.

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That seems to make sense

by Michael Jay In reply to The primary contributors ...

It could never happen, what with the IQ being what it is for the government as a whole, or is that a hole?

Makes one think, I think.

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Decent start.

by DHCDBD In reply to The primary contributors ...

I am not familiar with or do not remember the Smoot-Hawley tariffs. Please give me your takes; in the meantime I will look it up.

While you have some good points, I believe that you are overlooking an important item. That being that just because people have money available does not mean that they will spend it, nor does it mean that they will spend it in a fashion that will benefit the U.S.

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Better known as the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act

by NickNielsen In reply to Decent start.

It was passed in 1930 and raised import tariffs to unprecedented levels "to protect the American worker." The resulting retaliatory tariffs and reductions in trade were significant contributor to the worldwide economic travails of the 1930s.

And you're right about the money and spending it the way we expect. Consider the CEOs of AIG, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, and many others who awarded themselves taxpayer-provided bonuses for running their companies into the ground.

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