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Saying NO after saying YES

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I recently accepted a job offer with another company who were giving me a 40% salary increase. I then went to my present company to put in my two week notice and they proceeded to give me a counter offer that would match the other company. I have been with my present company for 2 years and my main reason for leaving was because I felt i wasn’t being given the value that I’m worth based on the skillset and value I bring to the company. So with my present company realizing this, it would be in my best interest to stay since the issue has been resolved. I like the people where I am now and the type of work that I do. As far as the other company, the type of work would be the same as now, benefits are pretty much equal, and everything else stacks up. So what is the best way to tell the other company that i’m declining the offer I already accepted? Is this a typical thing that happens and are there any issues that I should be concerned with.

Topic

LOL

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

You suggest that things have been resolved at your old company…think they will stay that way?

If you had to resort to leaving to get their attention, who says you won’t be in the same position two years from now.

Unless other factors are changing, I wouldn’t decline the offer you accepted originally.

James

Ditto

In reply to LOL

I can’t offer anything more than what James has said, but I agree with him 100% Time to cut and run.

I would also hazard to guess

In reply to Ditto

That now your current company is paying your 40% more than they were, their expectations for you will also rise 40%.

If you expect to maintain status quo work for your new level of pay…I think everyone is going to be unsatisifed.

Stats

In reply to Ditto

show that some huge percent of people who accept counter offers from their current employer are NOT with them 6 months from that point.

After accepting counter offer, you are looked on as:
1) not having loyalty to that company
2) easy to get rid of as you were going to leave anyway
(and what the previous posts said about things not having changed either situation or compensation wise)

change jobs, learn something new, in the end you’ll be happier and learn more.

Bingo

In reply to Stats

this 40% is just the start.

The next thing they will do is make everyone start to “document what you do in a day”.

Then they can look to find YOUR replacement and not be rushed. The extra money now is worth it to them to keep the position filled until they are ready.

Take the new position and come in fresh as the “expert” who has ALWAYS been worth that much.

Think of the resentment your present co-workers will feel when they hear you are making almost double what they are? That or you have been underpaid all along.

Don’t be afraid of the change. You are just gravitating towards the known and comfortable which is normal but not healthy.

Take that new job and things WILL only get better!

Good luck.

Agree with the Stats

In reply to Stats

Stats consistently show that people who stay due to a counter-offer leave the company within 6 months.

So you had to quit so they would appreciate you and pay you what you feel you are worth. Might be nice to be at a place that didn’t need such drastic action to address employee concerns.

Kevin.

Mambo

In reply to Ditto

welcome home.

Will you be blogging about your trip for us?

Hell, no

In reply to Mambo

Nobody gives a crap about my boring life! The closest I’ll come to that is my latest post in jck’s beer thread.

Thanks for the welcome though.

Hell, yes

In reply to Hell, no

We have been talking about you the whole time you were gone! (hee hee)

Put it up, we will come.

I was there too….

In reply to LOL

I’ve passed through this one time and stay at the same company. This was possible because the company’s culture allowed it.
The reasons for looking outside were pretty much the same.

I’ve been there for more 3 years and then all things happened again. This time, as mentioned by someone on the response thread, “i put my mind outside the company”. And it was good, reinforcing the feel of changing things (and getting better).

TTFN!
Fabio

Depends on one thing

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

Did the other company come after you or did you apply to them?

As a manager, I rarely meet another companies offer. It does two things:

1. Invites the same situation to happen again and again if others know about it (and they almost always will)
2. Creates a lot of bad will between me and my current staffer. They either feel like they were taken advantage of in the past or I feel like I’ve been taken advantage of now.

The only time I would think about making an offer (and the only time I would encourage you stay with your current job) is if the other company recruited you on their own.

When I’ve interviewed and wanted a new job, I’ve always found that my mind was gone before I was from my current job. Not that I didn’t do my job just that I wasn’t as invested as I once was. I say go and leave on the best of possible terms with your current employer.

Similar Situation…

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

I had a similar thing happen. I was offered a better salary to be a data manager, which was a welcome change from being an application developer. I accepted the offer and put in my two-week notice. They counter-offered for a little more money and offered to give me a better position developing an ARC-GIS system. Well, that was very attractive, so I told the other company, “Sorry, but my present company made a significant offer to keep me.” The new company then counter-offered with even more money and threw in a week’s free leave.

Well, I was really in a quandry because I wanted to be a Data Manager, I needed the week’s leave for a trip I had to take overseas, I didn’t feel my present company really appreciated my talents, and I KNEW my present employer was offering more money than they could consistently afford to pay me.

So, I went to the new job. It was exciting and I learned a lot. However, the grass, I learned, was greener on the other side of the fence. My boss was a total pain in the bottom; unbearable to work with. The new commute was wearing me out. The work that was exciting at first became tedious and boring. I was not allowed to innovate (isn’t that ridiculous?)

I had kept in touch with my old job and one day, they had another opening. I told them that I would come back for the their original offer (they didn’t know I was not happy.) I asked them about the money situation and they assured me that they were able to cover my salary and future growth. Now, I am happily back with the original company and they are happy and so am I.

Pickle of pickles

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

Was your desire to leave based off money or off professional stagnation? MY first advice would be what is your goal for happiness? Then the decision will be easy. No matter what a bridge is going to be burnt on either decision. You will work harder and suffer more criticism at the current employer since they had to shell out more money to keep you happy. The new employer might be a really bad place to work under intolerable situations. Risk is apart of life unfortunately.

I would inform either comany at a business luncheon paid by you why you made a particular decision and express a supreme desire to cross their bridge at another time in life if possible. You could even blame it on family issues, not professional. Chances are it is a done deal, no looking back but most appreciate the class of being sincere vs a chicken email or phone call. Hey if it fails, well you’ve proven that you can name your price anywhere and get employment, so that is far better than most do when looking for a job or a replacement position. Good luck.

More insight

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

Here is a little more details regarding the situation which may cause a difference in opinions. My current company is a very large, prosperous, stable company in the dc area who has government contract sectors in which i work for. The other company did recruit me, it is smaller and is also in the same government contractor sector so all the work is interconnected and can easily be interchangeable through each company. My current company did not know i was unhappy, they do look favorably of me, and my change in salary will boost me up to the market value of what I should be getting based on my location, experience and skillset. Also i will be vested in my current companies 401K after 5 years which would be an added benefit. All of these things are why I would consider staying with the current position with the new adjusted salary.

Take the offer from the new company

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

Ask yourself this: Why is your company suddenly seeing that you’re worth [b]40%[/b] more in pay and why are they all of a sudden telling you how valuable you are? I think they’ve been low-balling you this whole time. Take the offer from the new company.

Yea

In reply to Take the offer from the new company

Yea,

Something a little fishy about that kind of raise to keep you when they didnt appreciate you before. Then the expectation will be set for you to perform possibly 40% more????

Check out the new company very well and i would say go for it.

Jim S.

Nobody has answered your question, poor guy!

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

The best way to tell the other company you’re declining their offer is to tell them the truth: that your current employer matched their offer and you’re happy enough where you are to stay there. Maybe they’ll offer the next guy who comes along a little more. Maybe they’ll even offer you a little more, as someone suggested.

Of course this depends on what you have signed. Depending on that and on how Red a state you live in, you could be committing breach of contract. So be careful. But if it’s just a verbal acceptance or a handshake there’s nothing enforceable. They could withdraw the offer just as easily and legally.

Forty percent is a big difference. One of those two companies is not very well managed. I hope you end up at the right one!

As for what everybody else has said, well yadda yadda yadda. Sure it’s all true. But when you go home at night all that matters is whether you’re content with your life. If you try to look too far into the future all you do is give your brain eyestrain.

How Red a State, Boomerang Employees

In reply to Nobody has answered your question, poor guy!

Alabama is about as Red as they come, and we are a “Right to Work” state, which also means we are a “At Will” state. That means that employers can fire you at any time “At Will”, and employees can leave at any time “At Will” with no legal impediments to stop either party.

I assume breach of contract would not be a problem with the situation at hand. Otherwise, the current hire would not make a counter offer, because they would not need to to retain the employee.

I say, all else being equal, go to the new company. The current employer needed the threat of leaving to counter-offer. In addition, an offer has been accepted with the new employer. They may not like it if someone rejected a previously accepted offer, and that might make getting on board with them at a later time more difficult.

Another thing to consider if your current employer has any history of “boomerang” employees that left and came back a few months or a year later. There are several where I work, who found out that the “grass is not greener” and my employer had no problem getting them back as long as there is an opening. One came back after only 1 month before her old position could be filled by someone else. If your company does this, it may give you a chance to try something else, then come back.

I say go as well.

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

Make the change. Enjoy the new experience. You should never EVER accept a counter offer. They’ll keep you around until they learn what you do and then toss you out like an apple core.

At that point you’ll have no job, and you’ll be making 100% less than you do now.

Just another note

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

Thanks for all the responses and please do continue weigh in with suggestions and opinions. However the main reason for the huge gap in salary is because I intially came in with the company as entry level and it is my first job in the IT field since graduating college. In the time since first starting 2 years ago, I have gained much technical experience in critical skill areas and was placed on a government contract, passing all the necessary check marks needed.

No recognition

In reply to Just another note

Your current employer obviously didn’t want to acknowledge your increasing value to them, by increasing your salary as you became more experienced.

Reply To: Saying NO after saying YES

In reply to Just another note

If I were in your position – joined the company 2 years ago after graduating – I would first negotiate for a pay rise with my present employer as I am now in mid-level. If not, I’d look elsewhere.

Someone here pointed out that it is a risk either way. You have to follow your heart and also weigh out the pros and cons (write them down). In my opinion, integrity and loyalty is a thing of the past. I’m sure your current employer would understand that. After all, they are the one who allegedly forgot to review your salary. It does look like they want to keep you since they’ve invested on you.

How depressing

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

That no one replying to you so far has mentioned the issue of integrity.

You made a decision to leave your current company. You received an offer, and you made a decision to accept it. You announced that decision. YOU MADE A COMMITMENT. Your sense of integrity should be screaming at you what to do without asking for anyone else’s advice…take the offer you accepted. Not because it’s better or more money or things were bad at your old place or you can’t trust why you were given a counter or anything else. Do it because it’s the right thing to do, it’s what a person of integrity who makes a commitment would do, which is to follow through on a commitment. No matter what.

Don’t take the offer. Go back to your old company. The company that made you the offer made plans on the basis of your acceptance, but you kinda screwed that up for them. However, you’re in a better place for you so who cares, right? A month later, are you still feeling good about yourself? Think your employer is feeling good about you? I hope not.

Doesn’t making a commitment mean anything to you? You should have thought this through before you accepted the position. It’s rare but companies do counter, and you had no plan for how to deal with it.

Satisfaction?

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

Is the remuneration the *only* reason you considered and looked for another job?

If it’s just about money, perhaps you need to think through why you do your job in the first place.

Are you satisfied with your job, with what you *do*?

If the company only offers you market value to stop you from leaving, do they really value you as an employee and the work you do for them?

Or is it a case of the pay rise being easier than the hassle of replacing you?

The Driving Force $$$$$$

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

I agree with Amcol — he is ‘ethically’ right.

You made a committment to your new company and now they are second best.

Did you let your present company know that you were not happy with your salary before you decided to leave?? or did you assume they knew?

If you did and they did not match the offer until you accepted the new position then how much worth do you place on their intentions and their appreciation of your value??

Your present company didn’t realise your value until you were leaving or explained your value to them. !!!

Would have they given you the rise without you leaving??????

Also more money is nice but it isn’t everything – as you mention, you like the type of work and the people.

In the end follow your “instinct”. 🙂

You shouldnt stay

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

Ok so there has been a counter offer, but they will also raise their expectations..

Hell, you were doing the same job for lesser pay right?? Pay goes up…Expectations go up…

Accept the other job offer you have…Meet new people, learn new things … If they have set your present worth at 40% more than your first job, who knows what incentives they may give you next 🙂

Love, War and Business

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

If the question was about a relationship instead of a job, you would know what to do.
You haven’t changed – you are worth the same this week as you were last week. That you had to threaten to leave for them to see that they were undervaluing you tells you everything you need to know about them.
Namely: that they undervalue you.
So you think their culture will change? That from now on, they will give you raises and such comensurate with your true value?
NOT!
If they stepped in it once, they will step in it again.
Take the new offer and expand your horizons. Give it a year, then rethink your decision. In the mean time, keep in touch with your current co-workers to see how things are going.
I’m betting you’ll be glad you did not stay.

Here’s what you do

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

Go to that other company, and tell them you’ve got 40% increase in your present company. If they increase the offer, go. Otherwise, stay. Namely, your current employer had just expressed his appreciation of your skills & personality in the most sincere, the most heartwarming manner possible: $$$

You are one lucky guy!

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

Either that, or you’re very good at what you do. In which case, you’re very lucky to have found a company that appreciates such a thing and doesn’t just see you as a replaceable body in a chair. Good on ya!

At this point, the only thing required of you is to call up the hiring manager, explain that your present company has chosen to “fight” for you and you’d like to thank them for their kind offer but decline at this time. Of course, you don’t want to burn this bridge, as it may come in handy in the future (no such thing as job security in IT) so be as nice as possible when turning them down.

Another thing to consider

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

IF you go to the new company, you will *probably* have a performance review in 90 days- after your “training period” is over. Often times, a pay raise is included with this. Or, at least, this might happen after 6 months.

With your current company, they may be loath to give you another raise in the forseeable future. Thier logic will be- “We just gave you a huge raise – that should hold you for a long time. Why do you need more money?”

You’ve got a quandry – stay in a comfortable enviroment, but restrict your earning potential, or embark into a new enviroment, and open up your future.

Reply To: Saying NO after saying YES

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

Rule #1: Never accept a counter offer. If you accept it, they will be more willing to whack you and then turn around and hire someone at the old salary, leaving you out to be wet in the rain.

Good Advice

In reply to Reply To: Saying NO after saying YES

I rather liken it to the story of Lot and his wife…

Don’t turn around and look back, you might not like what you see or what happens…

Maybe I’m crazy…

In reply to Reply To: Saying NO after saying YES

Why not take the counter-offer to your new employer to see if they can sweeten their deal?

Nothing wrong with being the object of a bidding war.

Be 0% loyal, and 100% professional. ALWAYS accept a better offer.

In reply to Reply To: Saying NO after saying YES

You should take everything in account, though. Money, job crapiness degree, workplace crapiness degree, coworker disagreeability factor, and, last but not least, your gut feeling about the future of organization you are working for, and your future in it.

> If you accept it, they will be more willing to whack you and then turn around and hire someone at the old salary

They are ready & willing to do it any time anyway.

What a horrible attitude

In reply to Be 0% loyal, and 100% professional. ALWAYS accept a better offer.

I’m in the process of filling some open positions right now. Do us both a favor…don’t apply.

I don’t expect loyalty when none is given, but I do expect that if I’m loyal to my staff then no matter what’s going on in the organization that they’ll be loyal to me. And after decades of management with hundreds of staffers, I’ve had that premise proven to me over and over.

If you come in with a disloyal attitude out of the box there’s nothing I can do to change you, nor would I want to. Disloyalty equals selfishness, and selfishness has no place in any organization where people depend on each other to whatever extent for success.

Loyalty equals dependability. No loyalty, I can’t depend on you. Why would I hire you? And if you think you can hide your attitudes in this regard, you’re kidding yourself.

Oh yea? What exactly would you want? Enthusiasm maybe?

In reply to What a horrible attitude

> I’m in the process of filling some open positions right now. Do us both a favor…don’t apply.

Don’t worry. I’m already doing two jobs.

> I don’t expect loyalty when none is given, but I do expect that if I’m loyal to my staff

Manager loyal to his staff!? Now that would be a sight to behold.

Even if you, personally, are loyal to your staff, upper management isn’t. And even if the upper management is by some peculiar chance loyal to it’s employees, the owners/shareholders certainly aren’t. Therefore, if you consider yourself loyal to your staff, you are fooling yourself, and them. Fie upon you!

The advice about 0% loyalty & 100% professionalism was given to me by my own boss, and I think it’s a good, realistic one. I know I can trust that guy, and I behave towards him accordingly. And I also know, that I could never trust someone like you.

> Loyalty equals dependability. No loyalty, I can’t depend on you.

You can. I always keep my promises- one at a time.

> If you come in with a disloyal attitude out of the box there’s nothing I can do to change you, nor would I want to.

I’d fly off the handle if you would. I hate being treated like an idiot.

> Why would I hire you?

Judging from your attitude, you hire people to eat your toads. I’m usually hired to get the job done.

> And if you think you can hide your attitudes in this regard, you’re kidding yourself.

Hide my attitude!? What an idea!

IMHE, it’s far better to be sincere & blunt, especially on the long run.

Reply To: Saying NO after saying YES

In reply to Be 0% loyal, and 100% professional. ALWAYS accept a better offer.

That is true, but I would rather be making 40% more working for the new company than 50% less on unemployment.

Employment is something you can never be sure about in IT

In reply to Reply To: Saying NO after saying YES

Never.

Keep this in mind, and live with it.

Concur with The Admiral and JamesRL

In reply to Reply To: Saying NO after saying YES

You made a decision once you accepted the new company’s offer. If you wanted to negotiate, you should have done that before you accepted an offer.

My advice is to tell your company thanks, but no thanks. Don’t burn any bridges, as you may decide to return in the future. Give the new company 6 – 12 months and decide whether you want to stay or try to return to your old company.

Fear of the new is no reason to back out of a commitment.

Future Reference

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

This wasn’t exactly specified in your description, but have you already signed an offer letter for the new company? If yes, I agree with amcol that you need to think of the commitment you are breaking.

I was in this situation once too, and luckily I had received the offer letter from company B but NOT signed and accepted yet when I gave my notice. Company A countered and I stayed. IT worked out OK, but ultimately I found that the reasons I was looking to leave resurfaced and I left later anyway.

But your situation is different, because you are happy and only looking to get more $$$ you feel you deserve. Now it has been offered to you from two places. If you already signed acceptance, I would give that serious consideration.

If not, and its just verbal, then you can do what I did – just call Company B and explain that your current employer has made an offer you cannot refuse to stay put. They will get over it an call their next best candidate with an offer.

One more thing – I think everyone has a valid point/warning in that once you have threatened to quit where you are, that kind of changes your work environment if you decide to stay. It will be remembered that you gave notice.

So future reference, if in this situation – get a written offer letter for new position, THEN give notice before signing acceptance. That give you a choice of accepting a counter offer or just resigning. Good luck!

A very, very fine line

In reply to Future Reference

I freely admit to being extremely anal about the issue of integrity. I’ve always considered it to be very binary…you either have integrity or you don’t. It’s not situational, and once you cross over to the dark side there’s no going back.

That said, I don’t make a distinction between signing an offer letter and giving a verbal commitment. Either way, you’re committed. Just because you’ve only made a verbal statement that no one can prove in a court of law is irrelevant. YOU know what you did, and that’s part of what makes you an adult…doing the right thing even when there’s no one around to watch you doing it.

The original poster said he/she “accepted an offer”. That’s it. End of story. Commitment made. No other detail matters.

Your point about securing an offer letter before giving notice is right on. Integrity works both ways, and unfortunately I’m aware of too many cases where an offer was made and then rescinded…after notice was given to the old company. Always best to protect oneself.

That’s SOOOOO common!

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

It hapens all the time.

Simply phone th ehiring manager and explain that you have reconsidered and that your rpesent employer has agreed to meet your requests in order to keep you on staff. You can explain that you are happy where you are and the only reason you were looking elsewhere is because you thought you were at the peak of your growth there.

Apologize for the confusion and ask if they woul dconsider accepting your aplication in teh future if you found that your current offer is not living up to your expectations.

They’ll usually say ‘sure, best of luck, call us anytime’. Whatever, they probably won’t consider you again but at least you were honest and forthright about it.

Congratulations on you new raise! 🙂

Honest and forthright?

In reply to That’s SOOOOO common!

The offer was made and accepted. The commitment was made. Then…”Oh, sorry, changed my mind.”.

How exactly is that honest and forthright?

Just because I do something wrong and then honestly own up to that doesn’t make me honest.

Self-serving and disingenuous, maybe. But definitely NOT honest and forthright.

Integrity is a fine line too

In reply to Honest and forthright?

What happens if you verbally agreed and later found out that the company doesn’t quite suit you in the end anyway. Would you proceed to hang on to the integrity and be unhappy in the new job and perhaps later resigning from it (which makes you look dishonest). Or, you could say “No” at first and that makes you a more honest person.

Everybody views integrity differently.

Absolutely not the same thing

In reply to Integrity is a fine line too

Anyone can make a mistake. You accept a job, show up for work, and a short while later realize the fit just isn’t there. Move on, and do so with no guilt on your conscience and no blood on the floor. Following through on a commitment to accept an offer doesn’t indenture you to a life of servitude, and there’s nothing dishonest about recognizing a reality that wasn’t apparent to begin with. At least you’ve tried.

“Everybody views integrity differently.” What an interesting concept, and exactly the problem.

Amcol – You clearly feel strongly about this

In reply to Absolutely not the same thing

Do you think you opinion on this matter is colored by your viewing it from an employer’s perspective? If I had to guess, from the original post, this gent has been fairly dissatisfied with his work conditions for a while. If he’s young and not wise in the ways of the world, he may feel there’s no need to do anything more than look out for #1 when it comes to the work relationship. His company’s counter-offering would reinforce that view.

I know I’m making some huge leaps here, but my point is that viewpoints on what is ethically acceptable in THIS arena can be greatly divergent.

BTW, I agree with your points, but I see it through the eyes of someone who’s been out in the real world for 25 years. If this guy were to recind his acceptance, IMHO, it should have been done no more than 48 hours after the initial agreement. As each day has passed, he has lost the opportunity to back out gracefully.

I feel strongly about everything

In reply to Amcol – You clearly feel strongly about this

Why do anything half way?

And the answer to your question is no. I was an employee long before I was an employer, and as an employer I’m still someone’s employee. So that perspective is irrelevant.

Besides, what I feel strongly about is the issue of integrity, which has nothing to do with one’s employment status. Nor, in fact, does it have anything to do with work. If you’re a person of integrity you are one in all aspects of your life, in and out of the office.

I’m just a simple guy from the housing projects of NYC. In my world, as I’ve said in an earlier post, this is a very binary issue…you either have integrity or you don’t. You either are ethical or you’re not. You don’t do all kinds of evil deeds and then wake up one morning saying, “Well, gee, I guess today I’ll be an ethical person who does things with integrity.”.

I have zero tolerance for any behavior other than total integrity in myself. Call me a hardass, but I apply that same yardstick to everyone else…because I start with myself.

Integrity, trust, dependability, ethics, morality, reliability, responsibility. All part of the same mixture. What kind of a person do you want to be? A question we should all ask ourselves, every day.

Well, I wish…

In reply to I feel strongly about everything

…more people carried that attitude through all aspects of their lives.

Probably pretty rare in D.C. (except for D.C. Guy and yourself) 😉

Your word is your bond

In reply to Honest and forthright?

therefore don’t make commitment lightly. Never forget to say “maybe”.

I’ve never broken my word to an employer

In reply to Your word is your bond

My current employer has not yet broken their word to me. Long may both continue, 6 months and counting on their side, twenty years plus on mine.

As for the chap in question, I’d have wanted back pay for the last two years and an explanation why I’d been underpaid for two years. Then I’d have waited for the money to come through and left anyway.
They deserve nothing else.

edited

In reply to That’s SOOOOO common!

>>> snip

I agree

In reply to edited

I might rehire someone who left our company and didn’t find the greener pastures they thought they would. I have seen situations where that happened and it worked out.

But if someone had received and offer and accepted it, it would be difficult. Hiring someone is like a project, and the offer is like the last phase. If you think the project is over and someone else throws you a curve, then it makes for a few challenges, and people will remember. Some people would feel burned or betrayed or played for a sucker. If someone did this to me, I wouldn’t trust that they would stick around for a couple of years, and that my minmum requirement for a permanent employee.

James

I agree

In reply to edited

Course I was choosing between two positions, verbally accepted one and they changed their mind on the friday for a monday start, one week’s probation to see if I was real. Meanwhile the other position had been filled and so I was out of work for a further six weeks. Can’t say I was too happy about that. That’s life, another entry in my little black book of sh!theads I’ll never go near again.

I personally don’t think being mercenary is a good idea, but I’d welcome a chance for payback on those f***wits.

I dont accept verbal promises

In reply to I agree

You have to give it to me in writing and it has to be an offer signed by someone authorized to make the offer. In most cases I ask for 24 hours to read it over and think about it before I sign. That has worked for most people.

James

I do accept verbal promises

In reply to I dont accept verbal promises

Expect them to be kept as well. Mine are !
That aside, if I’d have rang them on Friday and said I’d changed my mind about Monday, by their lights I would have been an unprofessional git. The reverse therefore has to be true.
It’s a catch-22 for a candidate anyway. Honesty would compel you tell employer B you are stringing them along while waiting for written confirmation from A, in which case you may lost B’s opportunity anyway. Don’t mention it and opportunity A comes through and you look like a twat. You can only ‘win’ if you take second best and they don’t find out they are second.

I have been burned….

In reply to I do accept verbal promises

I was told at one company (well known) that I had the job, and they just needed to check references. After that I could not get a returned voice mail or email. Turns out their senior director did not like one of my bosses, but no one had the guts to call me. We had even discussed the start date.

I’ve also been burned about the details, the stuff thats in the letter. I’ve shown up and the salary was less. I’ve shown up and the benefits that I negotiated to start immediately were back to the default after three months. If I had a piece of paper in my hand, I think its worth two in the bush – I would ask company B to put their offer in writing.

Unless you’ve known and trusted the person doing the offering, I wouldn’t trust a verbal promise, its not worth the paper its written on….

James

Take the new offer

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

I’ve been in this situation. Take the new job and don’t look back. If your current employer thought you were really worth this much money, wouldn’t they already be giving it to you? Or at least some of it…40% is a lot. Your immediate future with your current employer is over.

DEPENDS

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

As other people have written. There is no job security or loyalty. You mentioned in a later post that you were on contract or work a government contract job????……I would be very concerned about the ending of that contract and where I would fit in with my company.
You mentioned that ou are 2 years out of college so I would asume that you are in your early or mid 20’s……my advice, run as fast as you can to the new job and the adventures that come with it. You didn’t mention if you were married, kids, dog, mortgage to worry about. I will again assume you are single….Get the new job and don’t look back.

Given advice by a headhunter

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

I was at a MAJOR defense contractor and received contact from a headhunter, I did the dance, and was offered a 20% bump by another defense contractor. As part of my “counseling” the headhunter said my current employer would probably attempt to match it fully, or guilt me into a partial raise and then talk about company loyalty. He was right on both parts. He also reminded me they were now on notice that I was considering leaving and that the bump could very well be a temporary thing to pacify me until they could get a replacement. I’ve kept that close at mind as I made another jump after six years at the “new” company. Net result, over 100% salary increase, manager bonus, telecommute options- even as an IT mgr. Yeah I’m pretty happy now.

On the other hand…

In reply to Given advice by a headhunter

I’ve lived to see a temporary salary bump on the new job as well, like “Sorry old chap, but our cash flow isn’t like it used to be at the moment, and we won’t be able to pay that ridiculously high salary we’ve promised to you. We are really sorry. Really.”

Saying NO after saying YES

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

Agree to what James has said – IF you have decided to leave a company and getting a good hike – my personal advice would be take the new offer because the situation what you are in might arise again. There are all chances the company might say see we have accepted to you demand and now you hav eto take additional loads etc, then the mental tourcher woudl be still high.

Where is the line?

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

As I posted earlier, I’ve been in this position. I’ve read down through a lot of these posts and noticed the integrity slant. I have two comments to make about this.

Comment Number One: If an employer counter-offers another companies offer, is that employer acting with less or more integrity than someone who accepts the counter-offer?

Comment Number Two: The offer letter is not a binding contract of employment. The offerer can withdraw it at will. No law is broken due to the breaking of a verbal agreement to accept that offer of employment. If I make a decision based on one set of facts and then those facts change, am I wrong to change my decision? Should I continue with a bad decision just because I made it without some key information? What if I found out the new employer doesn’t have a 401K program or some other new information. Would it be alright then to say no, even though I had already said yes. Does anyone have a moral integrity check list that I can borrow?

I make decisions that are best for me and my family first. If I feel it is better to accept a counter-offer, I will. Is that selfish? You BETTER BELIEVE IT! I slept great last night.

Where is the other line?

In reply to Where is the line?

I have a few more comments to make about this discussion.

Comment Number Three: Some of the posts made it sound like the poor employer was going to be completely lost if the person they made the offer to didn’t come on board. My company hires engineers, IT professionals and a variety of other skilled professionals. We post a job opening and interview candidates. We call in several of the best candidates for a second interview. After that, we discuss the candidates and select one to make an offer to. I’d say about 25% of the candidates that we make offers to do not come to work for our company. In that case, we make an offer to another of the candidates. On occassion, we come across a spectacular candidate that REALLY fits our company’s needs. If that candidate were to call us and tell us they had a better offer, we would negotiate to get their services. We don’t hold ill-will towards any candidates, just like we don’t hold ill-will towards associates that move to another company. We understand that people are important, and that happy people work harder. Our company knows that it cannot always provide the best opportunities for all employees. Many people come back to our company after a go or two with other companies. This seems like the norm among the other companies I work with. Do the companies you work for actually harbor bad feelings toward people that have better opportunities come their way? Do you believe that no better opportunities will ever come along for any of your employees? Do you believe that your company is providing everything an employee could ever want? Do you expect to hire everyone you make an offer to?

Comment Number Four: I’ve spent a lot of time (unfortunately) looking for work in my past. I have had several employment negotiations at various stages (first interview, second interview, letter of interest, etc.) in the works at a time. I don’t think that is uncommon. Let’s imagine a situation where there are two companies. Company A is a good company about an hour away from my house with OK benefits et al. Company B is an awesome company about 10 minutes from my house with excellent benefits. Let’s say Company A offers me a job and having only 72 hours to accept or decline and no other offers, I accept for 60,000 a year. Now let’s say that Company B then sends me an offer letter for 80,000 a year. Do I maintain my integrity and say sorry to Company B or do I take the obvious choice and go with Company B? I can tell you that if I wanted to stay married, I’d better take the Company B job. If you answered Company B and you are someone who said it showed poor integrity, then what are you saying? That your integrity has a price? If you chose company A to keep your integrity, then are you going to be happy as you drive by your missed opportunity every day at that 10 minute mark?

It is my opinion that employment is a mutually benefitial situation. It is not a contract. The employer can let you go without cause any time they want. You can quit without notice anytime you want. There are polite things we do for each other like two weeks notice, but there are NO obligations. I don’t believe there are any Moral obligations either. That company certainly takes no moral responsibility for laying you off based on what is best for the company. Why is it that I have to have moral responsiblity to a company I don’t even work for yet?

Honesty and Integrity

In reply to Where is the other line?

I’ve been in both positions. I’ve been looking for work and juggling competing offers, and I have been hiring.

Your comment about letters of offer not being binding.

I don’t know about US law, but US and Canadian law have a common ancestry in British common law. In Canada, if its worded as a letter of offer it is binding. I recall a major hi tech firm which had mailed out letters of offer just before a major layoff. It actually contacted the people and paid them severence before they showed up for their first day of work. You can make letters of offer conditional.

There are obligations and employment is a contract. Employers in most jurisdictions can’t let you go without cause – cause can be financial conditions, but that is still cause.

In basic contract law, a contract is enforceable once there is offer and acceptance. If you accept and bail, the employer could argue that you broke the contract. Of course they would have to prove damages and that would be challenging.

You can and should of course chose your own course. But if you accepted and bailed on me, I would remember and not with a positive perception. If I offered and you didn’t accept, I would not think anything less of you.

If you don’t show integrity in your hiring decisions, what will you show on the job?

James

No Offense To Canada, but…

In reply to Honesty and Integrity

(Bet you thought I was going to compare Canadians to Rocket Scientists again, didn’t you?)

Our employment is NOT contractual in most cases. Do you think that integrity is a constant that can be applied across all aspects of a person’s life consistently? Does that mean that if I see you speeding, I can assume you don’t have any integrity at your work? Once I go down the moral high road and start throwing integrity stones at everyone, I may find some being thrown back in places I didn’t expect.

The hinge point of all this discussion falls on whether it is acceptable to say no once you have said yes. You say it shows no integrity. I say integrity is not an issue.

Turn the tables

In reply to No Offense To Canada, but…

Legally binding or not, contractual or not, verbal or written, a commitment is a commitment is a commitment. Sorry if this sounds sexist and old fashioned, but as the old saying goes…a man’s word is his bond. (And so is a woman’s.)

You’re only as good as your word. If you give your word, your commitment, your promise, your acceptance of anything then you have an obligation to follow through.

Holding up speeding as an example of a lack of integrity is silly, and doesn’t track as a comparison to anything we’re talking about.

Let’s take the opposite situation and draw a comparison that actually makes sense. You need some major repairs done on your house. You spend a significant amount of time researching all the contractors in your area, interview two or three, and make an arrangement with one of them. You expect them to show up on a particular day to do the work. Just before that, however, they call to tell you they’re taking on another repair job and won’t be available to you after all.

Can you regroup from this? Yes, but maybe not too easily. You can try calling your second choice and hope that contractor is still available, which by this time is probably unlikely. Are you harmed in any way? Not really, in that unless you gave an unrefundable deposit you’re not out any money. However, you sure wasted a lot of time and effort, didn’t you? And now you have to go through the process all over again.

Are you willing to live with the consequences of all that? If you are then just keep on doing things the way you are and forget about any notions of integrity. If not, then reexamine your position. What’s sauce for the goose…

Well put…the Golden rule

In reply to Turn the tables

I had someone bow out before the second round of interviews – that was fine, there was no offer and no acceptance.

But I consider an offer to be one half of a contract, with the acceptance to be the other half.

I like your comparison, it is a more valid choice of analogy, one that I’m sure everyone is familiar with.

James

Would be interested

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

if you would tell us if you changed your mind based on posts here, and if you do stay at your current company, tell us if you leave in the next year? cheers 🙂

Join the new company, dude

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

I would suggest that due to professional reasons, you should stick to your decision of joining the new company. More so due to –
1) the new company spend resources and time to find new employees, why waste it
2) if you have gone through a consultant, you would not be in their christmas wish list anymore
3) Professionaly, your old company would/might think that you have armtwisted them into a higher salary/perks, which might also set up a precedance in the organization.
4) Your boss/peers might think that you were suckered into accepting the new updated salary by handing out some carrots (which might back-fire next year during your appraisal, since your salary would any waybe rationalized.

Just my 2 cents….
\Giga

Aside of a different light

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

I found myself in a similar situation recently. When I started with my current company, I was told that I would be starting at my “low ball” and would be given a raise after my 90 day eval. This came and went and I started to become more disillusioned with my current position. I even began looking for a new job, not letting on here. When the 1 year mark came around, I made significant notices that I was severly undermarket and that the promised raises had not come through. The long and the short of it was that I had a couple of offers that I told the offers I would consider, but wanted to see what my current employer would do. It ended up that without the extra pressure or anouncement of looking/quiting, I was given a significant raise with a promise of further reviews in the future. So sometimes it is better to just put the pressure directly out there to your management that you feel that you are being undercompensated or underutilized/fulfilled. If nothing good comes of it, move on.

Money for nothing and your ……..

In reply to Aside of a different light

Well, is money the main reason you are leaving, if so, a counter offer to stay could be considered. Most of the time, there are other issues surrounding you intention to leave, most likely the issues are inherent procedural/ political and environmental. Those will not change with a new raise, and you may find yourself in the quandary down the road

You did the right thing in the right way

In reply to Aside of a different light

Every action you took was ethical, aboveboard, and demonstrates your sense of integrity. You followed through on your commitments and made sure commitments made to you were also honored. You were forthcoming with the companies from whom you got offers. It all worked out well for you.

This is quite a bit different from the alternatives that we’ve been discussing in earlier postings concerning integrity, or lack thereof. Yours is a case study in how to do it right. Thanks for educating us.

Getting another job

In reply to Saying NO after saying YES

I would not stay with a company that when it gets under presure gives you 40% increase.

Too emotional to me.
Not bussiness like…..

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