IT Employment·20,064 discussions

Sexual Discrimination in IT?

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I just read a disturbing thread, actually in fact a slanderous post, the subject of which is a friend of mine who worked extemely hard for the past 6 years and is achieving awesome results in her job as a Sales manager for a well known web host.
You can view the post here:
http://digg.com/tech_news/Hosting_Glamour_Girl_MySpace_Page_Upsetting_Customer_s_Marriages#c2719520
I for one was kind of hoping this sort of thing went with the dinosaurs and that women were equally respected in the realm of IT.

I have worked as a systems administrator for a number of years now and have always been treated with the respect I afford to others.
Should this sort of attitude still be going on today?
I would value your comments.

Topic

Looks like most replies agree with you

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

Most of those who replied to the thread comment on her outstanding professionalism.

Thankfully yes

In reply to Looks like most replies agree with you

Yep they do seem to gralfus.
I was just wondering if anyone else in this position had that sort of garbage thrown at them and if so, how they dealt with it.
I do get the occasional caveman to deal with but it’s pretty rare.
I guess it all depends on your outlook.

If I were a betting man…

In reply to Thankfully yes

I would bet it is gonna get worse… You seen MTV lately? Listened to any of the Lyrics in the current popular songs?

Life Imitates Art…Imitates Life…Imitates Art…

Out of the ordinary

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

I agree that most of the posts in that thread agree with you. (Howard Johnson is right… 😉 )

Unfortunately, if you are attractive, successful and female, it doesn’t matter what business or technical skills you have. Everybody “knows” how you got there. Attitudes have not changed as much as we would like. Even today, many males, and even some females, are unable to justify the business success of an attractive female in any other way.

Their loss.

==
Get the pink ribbon: http://tinyurl.com/evk5t
==

Edit: clarify

The “Casting Couch”

In reply to Out of the ordinary

The unfortunate side of the Everybody “knows” how you got there is that for some women in business they still use their “unique skills” to obtain postion. These are the women that are ruining it for the majority that are skilled and successful. I wish I could say that I have not witnessed this first hand but I have. It is a shame in todays society that some women feel the need to revive the “casting couch” process to get a great job.

Agree with Nick

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

Kudos to her for getting things up and off the ground and being successful!

I really think that the people out there with the negative comments are jealous that they don’t have that kind of sucess in their own lives so they are taking aim at her.

But again….kudos to her and her company. Competition for Godaddy and some of the others!

Sexual Discrimination should not happen in any career, job, etc.

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

This is my thoughts on this matter. I am a male so you are getting a male perspective here. No matter what jop a person is in, they should not be subject to sexual discrimination, harrassment, etc. I am sort of old-fashioned, but I still believe that a women, minority, etc. has the same rights as men, etc. A woman should not be threatened by their job simply because they are a woman, and someone feels that they can use that to their advantage. They should have the right to a safe, peaceful work environment as everyone esle expects. I was raised to show respect to others, especially my elders and women. Women deserve to be shown respect no matter what job they are doing. However, there are some exceptions to that, hint: “Working Girl”. I was also taught to respect yourself if you are going to have anyone else respect you. That line of work obviously states that the indiviidual has no respect for themself.

No exceptions

In reply to Sexual Discrimination should not happen in any career, job, etc.

[i]Women deserve to be shown respect no matter what job they are doing. However, there are some exceptions to that, hint: “Working Girl”.[/i]

There are no exceptions. Whether you like their job or not, “working girls” are trying to survive just like the rest of us. Indeed, the majority of the women in that line of work are probably not there by choice. I don’t ever remember any of the girls I grew up with saying “I wanna be a streetwalker,” yet two or three of them spent some time on the streets; one died as a result.

As you said earlier in your post “A woman should not be threatened by (ed: in?) their job simply because they are a woman, and someone feels that they can use that to their advantage.”

What sometimes happens though

In reply to Sexual Discrimination should not happen in any career, job, etc.

is that jobs where physical strength and/or stamina are disirable traits have been attacked as being sexist even though they’re not. Some employers have caved in to these attacks and modified their requirements so more women could qualify. Unfortunately some employees who met the modified standards have either lost their lives, or caused others to lose theirs.

i hafta agree with tony on this point…

In reply to What sometimes happens though

In my region, there has been a lot of debate about the physical requirements for emergency services. My concern was this: I am 6’3″ and 230lbs. If there is an emergency where paramedics or firefighters have to carry me, I don’t care what their sex is, I care about their ability to move me. If they happen to be female and can sling me over their shoulder, great! If they can’t, then male or female they shouldn’t be in the job.

Excellent point.

In reply to i hafta agree with tony on this point…

It is important to note that regardless of sex, a person’s ability or inability to perform the job should be the main concern when a person is hired, not hired, fired, or not fired. It should not matter how big their “boobs” are, or if they give in to a person’s threats. And I am sorry, but I do not see a 5′ female at 130 lbs. being able to perform a great deal of lifting without risk of injury to themselves.

irrelevant

In reply to Excellent point.

A 5′ male at 130 lbs is unlikely to be able to able to perform a great deal of lifting without risk of injury to themselves.
That’s where safe lifting techniques come in.

Sexual Discrimination

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

This problem is very wide spread. It is wonderful to hear your
views from someone who is not poisioed by this world.
Discrimination of all types is very real in this world. Get around a
little more or just watch the news.

How is that sexual discrimanation?

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

The dweeb said stupid things in the article he posted. The lady at the center of his ire is quite pretty. However what has any of this got to do with sexual discrimanation?

What is sounds like to me is the guy got busted by his wife trying to come on to a woman. He then broadcast this all over the world just to furthor illustrate his stupidity. More so his post drips of rejection, meaning not only did he get busted trying, the gal he was busted trying with shut him down.

Sexual discrimanation is when you are given the choice between commiting sexual acts (Which might be as mild as attending a date) or lose job/career opportunity. Random stupidity is not a good thing, nor is it sexual harrassment unless the guy posting that was her boss. This article helps foster the growing opinion that sexual harrasment is cry wolf hysteria with no validity at all. Even if the poster was a co-worker what he said was rude, patently false and unacceptable behavior from a co-worker. NOT sexual harrassment. What he said is no different than if an employee went around spreading false rumors that a male employee wore a pink tutu at night. Slander and gossip is just that and it should not be ok, nor should the right to free speech be blocked even if it is rude and stupid. I suspect an upwelling of support for the lady more than compensated any potential damage and the poster likely lost his job over those comments. If he were her boss then what he said would be grossly negligent and she would have every grounds for sueing him for slander.

Calling this sexual harrassment only hurts industry and hurts women. Men are already gunshy to say hello to a women lest it is construed incorretly and cries of sexual harrasment ring out.

Sexual Harassment / Discrimination is…

In reply to How is that sexual discrimanation?

Sexual harassment is unwelcome advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature, when submission to or rejection of this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects a person’s employment or education, unreasonably interfered with a person’s work or educational performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive working or learning environment.

Sexual Harassment is not just about unwanted advances it includes a gambit of acts some of which can be totally unintentional. Being a minority man in this world has givien me the rare insite on this first hand.

So with that being said.. a joke about breasts, penises, or homosexuality if over heard could be considered sexual harassment and should not be taken lightly.

Sexual Discrimination not Harrassment

In reply to How is that sexual discrimanation?

Sexual Discrimination is not the same as harrassment. When you discriminate based on sex you are passing someone over for a promotion because they are a woman, or not paying them the same salary as a man who does the same job, or not recommending them for highly technical assignments because you lack confidence in their ability because they are a woman. It has nothing to do with holding someone’s job over them for sexual favors, or gossiping about their sexuality or making cat calls at them in the hallway. It is basically not qualifying someone to do a job based on gender and it goes on all the time everywhere, not just in the IT industry. I am in the IT industry and I can tell you for fact I don’t earn what my male counterparts earn for doing the same job they do. THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION.

You may get burned if you play with fire…

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

Stephy, I have worked in IT for more than 15 years, and currently own an IT services firm. There are several issues being touched in this incident, not just Dino-Testosterone. It’s great that the sexy lady was able to do a good job in sales, but adding sexual innuendos for marketing is not really what I would call ‘best practices’. Using a method like this for finding new clients is bound to hit you back in the face. And I am talking about being hit back by both men and women – men who are irritated about females using sex as a sales pitch, and women who use their minds to accomplish their jobs. what is wrong with telling potential clients what the company can really do, tell the client how they are better than others, etc. Trust me that if I were looking for a company for Hosting Services, I would certainly not consider one in which a ‘Bikini Girl’ is their main poster. Finally, I do not see ‘Sexual Discrimination’ playing a part in this – the one with the ‘power’ here is the lady showing her assets. I would be interested in reading more in this discussion. Paulo.

Please summarize the issue

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

I traced the link back, but evidently the issue has expanded greatly and it is quite hard to delve through all of that to find out what we are talking about here. I did not find a picture of Amy.

From what I understand, the issue seems to be one of a person named “Amy” who uses her photo as part of her advertising campaign. By what others have written it would seem that Amy is good looking. A small minority of people have said that because she is pretty, she is therefore using her looks to create an unfair (?) advantage in the business.

Some things that I would like to understand.
1. Is the photo(s) just a normal “business card” headshot or is this in some way a sexually suggestive pose?

2. Assuming it is a business card headshot, how is this any different than any advertising that features a woman on it? e.g., Does anyone really think the icon picture for Tiger Direct actually works there?

3. If Amy were actually ugly and she used a professional model to be the “face” of the business, would there be any problem with that? Or, is it that ugly people (male or female) must suffer the consequences of their looks?

The photos displayed are not exactly business type

In reply to Please summarize the issue

The photos used show no business intention at all. The lady is definitely very attractive, and the image displays not only her voluptuous curves, but is accompanied by a second lady doing the same. They are both wearing casual clothes, with not even the slightest intention of business – only seduction. On the other hand, the text accompanying the photo cleary focuses in selling the services.

I have nothing against using your looks to ‘captivate’ your audience, but showing ‘Tits’ to sell Hosting?

“The Site” and a perspective

In reply to Please summarize the issue

First here’s the link to the site in question.
http://www.myspace.com/lunarpages

Notes:
1. It’s a myspace blog.
Generally that means this is a personal thing rather than professional.
2. Yes she’s plugging her business.
Duh – I do the same thing in every venue I can, why shouldn’t she? It’s free exposure.
3. Yes, she is very attractive.
Again I’m looking for a problem here. The stereotypical nerd is not that, and now there is more beauty in our ranks? Could some one tell me how that is bad.
4. Read her comments – She’s being intelligent. (If not a bit of a company cultist though.)

My final thoughts. If techies had to rely on how we look to get a job, most of us would be unemployable. I’m sure we all look absolutely fabulous, even Amy, after patch tuesday every month at 3AM.
The difference is that in our industry, especially in California where geeks are a dime a dozen, we have to prove ourselves daily. Failure to do so means a business can have critical problems that can close the doors almost overnight.
She got a good job and has held it. Kudos for her. Although I personally think marketing in a personal blog space like myspace.com is bad form, her page is tuned to the right market.

And if you think about it. It has done it’s job well. “There is no such thing as bad press.”
Now we’re all thinking about her and her company. (Who I will not name since it is my competitor.)

Discrimination, huh?

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

It ain’t discrimination if she put up the photos and stuff. She trying to get ahead if anything. Maybe she feels this is her only way of moving up in the world. It’s the It version of “sleeping with someone to move up the ladder” (if that still exists).

General response to sexual discrimination

In reply to Discrimination, huh?

Since there is widespread misunderstanding of the term “sexual discrimination”. The first step is to define your terms.
Type “sexual discrimination” into Wikipedia : Sexism is commonly considered to be discrimination and/or hatred against people based on their sex rather than their individual merits, but can also refer to any and all systemic differentiations based on the sex of the individuals.
Sexism can refer to subtly different beliefs or attitudes:
The belief that one sex is superior or more valuable to the other;
The belief that everyone belongs to either the male sex or the female sex;
The attitute of misogyny (hatred of females) or misandry (hatred of males); as well as
The attitute of imposing a limited notion of masculinity (gender role) on males (sex ) and a limited notion of femininity (gender role) on females ).
Sexist beliefs, as a species of essentialism, holds that individuals can be understood or be judged simply based on the characteristics of the group to which they belong?in this case, their sexual group, as males or females. This assumes that all individuals “fit” into the category of “males” or “females” and does not take into account of intersexed people who are born with both sexual characteristics . This also assumes a homogeneous characteristics of all males in the “male group” and all females in the “female group” and does not take into account the huge differences within a group. There are also XX males and XY females who are genetically one sex but has developed the sexual characteristics of another sex at fetal stage.
Certain forms of sexual discrimination are illegal in many countries, but nearly all countries have laws that give special rights, privileges, or responsibilities to one sex or two sexes.
Sexism against females in its extreme form is known as “misogyny”, which means “hatred of females”. The term ‘sexism’, in common usage, usually implies “sexism against females”, since this is the first form of sexism that has been commonly identified. This form of sexism is also often called chauvinism, though chauvinism is actually a wider term for any extreme and unreasoning partisanship with malice and hatred towards a rival group. A mildly related term is “gynophobia”, which refers to fears of females or feminity.
Historically, in many patriarchal societies, females were viewed as the “weaker sex”. The combination of hostile and subjectively benevolent (but patronizing) attitudes toward women is known as ambivalent sexism, which has its origins in the fact that while women have lower status than men, heterosexual men depend on women as wives, mothers, and lovers. Women’s lower status is evident in cases in which females were not even recognized as “people” under the law of the land. The feminist movement promotes women’s rights to stop sexism against females by addressing issues such as equality under the law, political representation of females, access to education and employment, female victims of domestic violence, and self-ownership of the female body.
We got from “sexual discrimination” to “sexism” in Wikipedia, because the discrimination comes from the system of white male patriarchy which is the basis of most of our problems in this society. Look up “patriarchy” and “oppression” for further information.

IT Needs more women like Amy

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

The last thing we need is fewer attractive women. It’s hard to find a date when your interests include video games, computers, and particle physics.

I think a previous poster has it right: it’s just sour grapes on the part of a married man that tried to hook up with a gorgeous woman and was shot down in a spectacular fashion. Unfortunately he has a lot of support because IT is filled with men that have little or no social skills, and many of them have chips on their shoulder because they’re not getting the hot bikini-clad women Hollywood tells them they should have.

Please don’t lose Perspective

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

First of all, I’m sure I stand for 99.9 % of the male workers when I apologize for this guys dinosaur attitude. The vast majority of us value knowledge and attitude in co-workers regardless of race, religion or gender. But don’t lose perspective, this is in no way an attitude that is “still going on today”. “Still going on today” would mean that it can be found just about anywhere and in sizable numbers. In my 30 years in the IT world, I have seen it just about disapear after being fairly prevalent when I started. The fact that there are even laws against “acting” on these archaic feelings a few still have, says it all. You will never erase 100% of prejudice from our ranks “of any kind”. Let’s continue to NOT tolerate it when it raises it’s head, in the meantime the old adage “Consider the Source” is appropriate. Take Care!

Please don’t lose perspective reply

In reply to Please don’t lose Perspective

I have to disagree with you in that it is not going on in the workplace. Maybe not in the exact way as in the given example, but women today are still getting hired for less than their male counterparts even though they have the same education and or experience. They still get passed over for promotions and many of the high profile projects that get noticed are passed out to men where the women get the more menial labor intensive administrative stuff that goes on in the background. I see it every single day all over my organizaion and I have seen it elsewhere. The real issue for me is that I make a good $25,000 less than my male counterparts who have the same background and experience that I have. Yes individual men in jobs have changed their attitude towards women in the workplace, but the corporations and HR departments have not.

Don’t be a victim

In reply to Please don’t lose perspective reply

You don’t have to take sexual discrimination. And, you don’t have to sue and completely lose your career either.

I am male and I have had to deal with very serious sexual discrimination. It was a very large corporation with a very large IT department (many hundreds). IT was clearly and obviously dominated by women. It was a sort of “old girls network”. There were men in high positions, sure. But, if you were male, you had a very hard time getting promoted through management or getting into the “good” IT staffer positions. It was almost unspoken, but it was more than obvious to all of the men.

What did I do? When the time was right for me, I moved on and did better than ever.

America is a land of lots of opportunity. No matter what discrimination any of us faces (sexual, racial, age, etc.), there are opportunities available somewhere else for all of us. The focus of this discussion (Amy) is a good example of this. Her gender doesn’t appear to be holding her back one bit in the company where she is now.

Do not accept what they give. Get out there and get what you want. Somewhere there is a company that really needs what you have to offer and they will treat you very well. That is where you should go.

All the best to you.

You may have a legal case

In reply to Please don’t lose perspective reply

If you can document that men with the same training, experience, responsibilities, and results as you are getting paid far more, it sounds like you’ve got a sexual discrimination case. Document everything and go to the boss or HR people. In a calm, business-like way (don’t shout or be threatening), lay out your evidence and ask them why you’re getting paid so much less. If they fire you, or refuse a pay raise, go to the EEOC or whoever else is responsible for enforcing fair pay laws. If you’ve got the paperwork to show that they’re discriminating against you, and can plausibly show that it’s because you’re a woman, you should be able to get redress. Hopefully it will have to go no further than the boss’s or HR’s office, and not to trial, but you never know.

Do not follow this advice

In reply to You may have a legal case

Do not follow this advice. If you do, you might win your court case but you will lose your career.

The fact that you did this will follow you around forever. You can PROVE mistreatment in a given job situation. It is not so easy to PROVE that you were not hired by another company because you sued your previous one. That’s illegal too, but you cannot PROVE that.

I think the value of being hirable in the marketplace far outweighs the value of getting justice with a single employer.

When being raped…

In reply to Do not follow this advice

…lie back and enjoy it.

That seems to be [b]TechExec2[/b]’s advice. If she’s being discriminated against at one company, what makes you think she won’t be treated the same way elsewhere? Sooner or later she’ll have to stand up and fight. Sure, some cavemen in other companies might remember it and hold it against her, but there are others who will think highly of her. [i]It’s not necessarily career suicide.[/i] I can’t guarantee that it won’t be, but if she has a [b]legitimate beef[/b] with her current employer, and is being actively discriminated against (in a non-trivial manner), should she silently accept it? I don’t think so. What if she were black, and was told she could not rise above typist, and had to use the “Coloreds” outhouse rather than the Ladies Room? Would you feel that she should just shut up and accept it?

Accepting a job is voluntary. Rape is…

In reply to When being raped…

Accepting a job is voluntary. Rape is a violent crime committed upon someone against their will. These are two completely different things.

Your racial discrimination example is also very extreme and does not support your point. “Colored outhouse”? Geez. We don’t even USE the words “colored” nor “outhouse” anymore. Your use of them is just to try to give credence to a weak point.

If sexual discrimination against women were rampant in IT, then maybe she should fight it if she chooses. I don’t think it is. So, she should move on. Her time and energy is better spent that way. And, living well is the best revenge.

not always an easy case to win

In reply to You may have a legal case

I know dirctly of a case where 12 people got “laid off”. Each one was a woman or minority. Each one was replaced by a man who generally had half the qualifications.

The 12 went to court.

Two years later, they lost their case.

My mother was one of the people that got canned and was head of the administrative computers on a local campus at the time.

Let it go

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

most people have a myspace account, she is doing nothing that should be held over her head. If she can do the job, then let her. For get her myspace account and you should get back to work!

Respect is earned…

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

All the posts from the people that have worked with Amy suggest she is outstanding at her work. This earns her due respect in her professional life. Her personal life is up to her. In addition, Amy should not be disrespected due to her appearance. The guy(s) disrespecting her in the original post, they obviously have enough personal problems to last a lifetime.

Side observation: Amy’s MySpace page has a picture with her wearing what appears to be an M/C (Motorcycle Club) supporter shirt. I’d love to see these guys run their mouths in front of Amy and any of her friends in any M/C. Something tells me this would be a quick cure for the abusive disrespect they were tossing her way.

yea, ok. From my experience in it

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

Some of the smartest people that I have worked with in IT were women. My previous IT manager was a lady that started out as bank Teller. She moved up the ladder, then moved to the state of Pennsylvania. Where she continued to work her way up. Want to know why she succeeded? She got the job done, and she got the job done right. She was good.
They passed her up for that IT position once, and hired a man for the position. That man almost ruined the IT department, he ruined our hard earned reputation for excellence and ended up getting outside people reviewing us with a fine tooth comb. Who did they call on in the end, the person they should have in the first place. The lady I am talking about.
She did not get that position because of being some type of token woman in management, she got that position because she deserved it.
Right now, I think she wishes she was a grunt again because of all the political bull crap that goes with government. But, that’s a different thing.
Women can and do succeed in IT when they have the skill’s, and they deserve to.
I hope you kick butt, and take names in your IT profession. And I hope you go back to that original post, and ask the poster who is further in their career. You or them?

Dan

My take

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

If this woman is as succesful as she her website states – making $250,000 a year before the age of thirty, then clearly she has achieved a great success. That doesn’t mean she can’t and wont have some problems with discrimination, but obviously it hasn’t stopped her from a meteoric rise.

Personally I wouldn’t mix myspace and work the way she has. But I am from a different generation and work in a conservative multi billion dollar firm. I think this has as much to do with her age and her looks as her sex.

We have women in leadership roles in all areas – sales, implementation, support.

James

Stephy: This is not sexual discrimination…

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

Stephy: This is not sexual discrimination or harassment by the poster on digg.com. It is simply rude, crude behavior.

What I find puzzling is why you connected this boorish digg.com post with sexual discrimination in the IT workplace. They’re not the same. I think what you’re really getting at is men’s attitudes and behavior toward women in general. Well, you can’t stop some dogs from barking. There will always be some rude, crude males. But, I think today’s IT workplace is mostly, but not entirely, free of sexual discrimination and harassment.

ABOUT AMY

On her MySpace page, Amy is not dressed in a business suit. She is dressed in a way that shows off her very attractive body. The text contains a direct soliciation to sign up for web hosting service at her company. So, she is using her personality and sexuality to sell.

She is a lady, it was done tastefully, and it is COMPLETELY fine if it is HER choice. And, it does not in any way justify rude and crude behavior like on digg.com. She is not “asking for it” (not THAT anyway). On the other hand, were she dressed in a business suit, that digg.com guy probably never would have posted. And, it would not work as well to help her attract business to her company.

You ladies cannot have it both ways! But, you should never have to tolerate rude, crude, humiliating behavior, no matter how you dress. There should NEVER be sexual discrimination or harassment in the workplace. And, there are a LOT of us men who think that way.

SAME FOR THE MEN

Fabio (http://www.fabioifc.com/) might be the greatest computer programmer ever (it could happen…stay with me). But, he has chosen to use his good looks as a model. He should not complain if some women think of him as a sexual object and approach him that way, so long as it is not rude and crude.

SO…

I think you need to chill a little about this. You’re smart and successful. There will ALWAYS be some guys like the one on digg.com, but they are all LOSERS (you know that guy is, right?). And, living well is the best revenge! Accordingto Amy’s MySpace page, she already is.

I hope this post is helpful to you.

P.S. Check out the movie “Disclosure” (Michael Douglas and Demi Moore).

edited for spelling

Yes I could have worded it better.

In reply to Stephy: This is not sexual discrimination…

TechExe2,

Yes I agree and perhaps in retrospect I should have worded the title differently.
I read through all the replies here and found the comments extremely interesting, I guess we all have differing opinions on this as I would expect.
The general opinion however is that the poster was not only wrong but most likely also feels socially and professionally inadequate.
This was a slur on a personal friend of mine on both a personal and professional level.
When we go out for meals and drinks etc she dresses down and in fact much prefers tee shirt and jeans to “provocative” wear.

bfelts had it right there, we do have many friends who are members of an “M/C” club and this is reflected in the dress code somewhat.

I noticed PublishingGal made some awesome and witty comments in her blog [url=http://techrepublic.com.com/5247-6257-0.html?id=3187129]Women unsuited for management?[/url]
I enjoyed that, thanks Gal 🙂

A few (dissenting?) points…

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

Okay, since everybody else is pretty much being cooperative, I guess I will be the voice of dissent here (not sure dissent is really the right word to use, but it will do for now). Not really emotionally tied to most of these points, just random thoughts I had that might elicit some interesting discussion…
1. If Amy does’t want people commenting on her cleavage, she probably shouldn’t post a picture of it, particularly not on myspace, whose primary demographic is College, and HighShool age kids.
2. What does IT have to do with this? Isn’t she getting jabbed for marketing tactics, just because she works in the tech sector, doesn’t make this IT.
3. Amy IS actually using Sex to sell, though perhaps she is not aware of it, or purposefully doing it. Any time a business transaction occurs, sexual attraction can play a role. So, although the schmuck was being crass, vulgar, and juvenile, it was a valid point, or at least a typical junior-highschool joke(“tee-hee! she has boobies!”).
4. What is more pathetic, that some doofus made a crass, drunken-frat-boy comment, or that so many people are giving it so much attention?
4. Other comments were made about gender discrimination in IT, with regards to payscale, no doubt based on statistics. However, I know of a number of cases where the same issue exists, only in the reverse. I wonder if it is not a gender issue, but rather an economics issue (ie The employer is going to try and hire you for the lowest price he/she can, in order to improve the bottom line. Ironically, Women who are conviced that there is gender inequality create a self-fulfilling prophecy in effect, by expecting to be underpaid).

“shardeth” makes some excellent points…

In reply to A few (dissenting?) points…

“shardeth” makes some excellent points, although I don’t agree with ALL of the wording. 🙂

All of this reaction and “coverage” of the digg.com guy’s post on TR and a number of other websites is FEEDING this kind of behavior. It should be more than obvious that the major purpose of the digg.com guy’s post is to provoke a reaction.

So…he “won”. He is probably REALLY enjoying all of this attention.

Rude and crude people like the digg.com poster should be largely ignored by everyone, especially by the smart successful women. You’ve got a lot of support there, ladies.

I met Amy

In reply to “shardeth” makes some excellent points…

I was reading the referenced thread over at WHT and I was hesitant to post my opinion because the majority of members can be quite aggressive over there.

I think it has been said in many different ways that women in IT are outstanding and to succeed and earn respect in this industry you must have the required skills and work ethics or you will not survive. It is not about gender.

However some of these moronic men are making it about gender and my first thoughts when reading all of this were for Amy over at Lunarpages and how she must be feeling. I was fortunate to meet her recently at HostingCon in July and I was impressed as hell. Admittedly the Australian accent made my knees weak but it went beyond that. She was witty, charming, warm and friendly and she KNEW what she was talking about. I was able to hold a real and intellectual conversation with her and it went beyond the usual pleasantries when people first meet. She was dynamic, incredibly well educated and her knowledge of IT and web hosting was so broad we discussed everything from advertising and online marketing to server types, DDOS attacks, backend solutions, SEO, staff recruitment, company operations and we even debated Linux VS Windows. (She is a Linux girl through and through if you are interested and she was dressed in business attire) One thing that left an inspiring impression with me was how she met the owners of Lunarpages resulting in her moving to California and the hardships she endured over the last 12 years that bought her to where she is today.

I don?t recall ever meeting anyone who left such a positive energy with me and I floated away feeling giddy like a 16 year old school boy because she not only genuinely listened and acknowledged what I had to say, I felt smart and like I mattered. Out of respect for her privacy I will not go into detail on her personal journey and how she came to be involved with LunarPages but I will say this. If I had a tenth of the strength, fortitude and courage she had I would be a better man for it.

The MySpace profile is constantly referenced but how old is the profile? Some of you are suggesting her success is due to her sexuality. If you bothered to read her blog, you would see that her online experiences and her major successes began back in Australia SIX years ago. She recently moved to California and the MySpace page went up only months ago. Her success cannot be attributed to that page nor her sex appeal. Has anyone ever considered she is an ethical and private person and as Stephy said she prefers to wear tshirts and jeans? Is it possible these photos are that of a model to spare her privacy and protect her from the crazies we all know spend time online obsessing? Web hosting industry people know the real answer and regardless when you meet her in person, she is beautiful INSIDE and OUT!

How can the success and credible reputation of LunarPages be accredited to a MySpace page? Is their esteemed reputation the result of one woman and her sexuality that would only have come into play since she moved here and the MySpace page became live? I highly doubt that young teens are buying their dedicated and business solutions in droves because of some pretty photos.

The digg and her blog contained posts from Vice Presidents at Coffeecup stating their business dealings were never in person. I know this to be true because when she was at HostingCon she was days off flying to a conference where she would meet them for the first time (the deal was already sealed at this stage). She writes articles for well known organizations and magazines and the level of her activity on the community forums at LunarPages is outstanding. The girl never sleeps! Can you really claim this kind of influence and success from some cleavage shots on a MySpace page? The thread the whole dig started from on their forums was a JOKE. A comment by a man who is STILL happily married and has already responded CONFIRMING the inaccurate dig article.

Read her blog and meet the real woman. You will laugh and gain an insight into who Amy really is and why she is so successful and loved by her customers, her associates and her peers (and me).

Geez dude, you’re smitten with Amy!

In reply to I met Amy

Geez dude, you’re smitten with Amy! And, I must admit, from your description, I’m smitten too!

But, I really think you’re missing the point. I’ll try to help you out.

– A loser guy (aka LOSER) made a rude and crude post on digg.com based on his obervation of Amy’s MySpace page.

– Stephy, Amy’s friend (aka FRIEND), gets bent WAY TOO FAR out of shape and posts here and there. She calls it sexual discrimination in the IT workpace here. It isn’t.

– My posts were in response to the FRIEND’S original post here and what I thought she was really so bent about. These are smart strong women who are getting bent out of shape about a LOSER’S rude and crude post. I think they should ignore the LOSER. They are so much bigger than that. And, it’s a good thing this guy didn’t make the comment in person because I think he would be castrated by now. Anyway…

– None of this is personal about Amy. The LOSER doesn’t know her. Almost everyone posting here doesn’t know her. I don’t know her.

– I know from Amy’s blog that she disrespects the LOSER and curses him (politely but firmly). I think a woman who is as all together as she is will be totally fine with all of this. And, I expect she is.

But, now I’m worried about YOU. It is not necessary to defend her virtue. Nobody who has a brain thinks poorly of her. The LOSER made a crude comment, but he clearly doesn’t have a brain so does not count.

Call Amy and ask her out for coffee. Anybody who feels the way you do about a woman should not be posting about her like this on TR. CALL HER.

Good luck.

P.S. All of a sudden, this professional IT site has become Friendster. 🙂

edited for spelling

Not Smitten

In reply to Geez dude, you’re smitten with Amy!

Just professionally impressed. She is in a very loving and committed relationship and so am I 🙂

Sexual Discrimination in IT

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

Yes it still exists. I have worked in IT for over 12 years now and am still experiencing it. I still have to prove that I know what I am talking about, then I get their respect, but not at first and I am no young person. And i have found it all over the world in my work.

Are you sure?

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT

I am male, have been in IT for roughly 15 years, and I still have to prove what I am talking about to get their respect. Is it sexual discrimination or is it the typical Ego trip.

Not too much…

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

Hi Stephy,

Woah!

In reply to Not too much…

That was some serious stereotyping there. only 2 of 11 men in our office our belly protruding, only 1 even drinks coffee, I am the only one who is balding, and none of them are more flawed than 90% of the population. Talk about discrimination…

I wish I knew more of those good Women you talk about. We have one in our dept.- Not a manager- Who has those qualities. The few female IT managers I have known have been the chip-on-the-shoulder variety: Always looking to pick a fight, never willing to listen to anyone elses ideas, and always micromanaging to the nth degree (And fairly technically clueless to boot).

I have been acquainted with managers outside of the IT profession who posses the qualities you mention, so I do know they exist. The best one’s I have known have had a couple common traits:
1. uncompetetiveness – They never seemed to feel a need to prove anything. They understood their job, they knew their people, and they worked hard to help their people succeed.
2. Leadership – One in particular impressed me with respect to this. I never saw her angry. She was always very calm, quiet, and encouraging in the way she worked with and motivated her team members. As a result, her team loved her. They were all very hard working, and they worked well together.

your only giving power

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

Buy replying to the post they put out there and trying to bash them for what they put out there you only sink to there level, yes i agree that it is wrong that people bash other people, but when you try to bash them back you really are no better than they are. the sad thing is that type of person is always going to lose to a woman because he will continually underestamate them.

Its ironic

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

This whole issue is very ironic in several ways.

1. Our cultures dwell on beauty, and women have to be glamorous. But if you are genetically beautiful, and are in business, then you are using the beauty that the culture REQUIRES to sell a product. (Translation: you can’t win.)

2. Almost every web hosting/computer reseller uses women to sell products. Ever seen a middle aged, overweight woman in a Dell ad? How about the “operators” at TigerDirect? (How convenient that the camera focus is pointing at cleavage.) The back pages of a Computer Shopper will show you exactly how sexist the whole thing is.

This is one of those subjects that has the overall effect of smacking a hornet’s nest 🙂

Sounds Like Someone is a Jealous Sore Loser

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

SHOULD this type of attitude still be going on today? Of course not. Unfortunately it will always go on in some segment of society. It’s much easier to hide behind a keyboard and make accusations or any kind of comment and not have to deal with anything face-to-face. That’s the direction our society is going in. These idiots crave the attention they get from these statements/posts so don’t give it to them – just ignore them while you file a complaint (if you know who the offending party is).

Oh my God, please lighten up!!

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

I am certain you’ve taken this post much too seriously. I can only be grateful that I don’t work around you and I offer my support to any male who does have to deal with your “princess and the pea” sensitivities.

Systemic

In reply to Sexual Discrimination in IT?

Biases such as this are historically systemic and are perpetuated by various social stereotyping. You just have to look through any PC magazine or other publications to see the reality. Women, for example, in gaming issues are portrayed as “big busted, small waisted, Conan-style, non-thinking, disposable” characters. In other PC industry publications, women are still depicted as your “phone person”, the “secretary/clerk”, the “water cooler bimbo” and so forth. Both our government and our religious factions still see “women’s work” to be of no real value and limited to the “home”. I recall some years ago the discussions around the issue of “pink ghettos” that technology would be creating. In some cases, it has become defacto but not how we envision them. How many times have you heard on the TV or read in articles that women just can’t make good gaming software? Balderdash (or crap if you prefer).

On a personal note, a fairly new peer manager (male) came storming into my office and asked why the upgrade to an application was not yet in production since it has now been in house for over a week. I looked him in the eye and said, “So you want all your systems to crash because this new stuff isn’t being tested for stability, etc.?” He said, and note that he is supposed to be an IT Manager, “Why do you need to do testing at all? This application has been in use for a number of years and this is only an upgrade to it.” I told him that it wasn’t just an upgrade but that it would introduce a web GUI on a currently used Client/Server app and was totally new to all.

So then I sent him away with a minor scolding and told him not to darken my door again until we were satisfied with the testing QA. He promptly went to our boss, also male, and said that I was a nasty person and must be PMSing all the time. FYI, his total IT experience has been only a few years, approximately five, with no real foundational training. Whereas I’ve been in the business for as long as Bill Gates (only better looking). Yet PMS is a more significant issue for him to point out rather than the IT best practices I was employing. Our boss scolded me and insisted I move the application into production a.s.a.p. regardless of my verbal opposition.

Well, I first wrote an exception memo outlining the best practice reasons why this was not a good thing, what will surely happen if we move forward without the appropriate controlled testing, and that I would not support the decision to move. However, I also wrote that since the BOSS insisted on this “new process”, it would be done. (Trust me, I did it in a very politically correct way.) And to sum up, the application indeed bombed, front facing customers complained and it was very clear at the end of the day who, what, how, where, and why we were down on a front facing revenue system for over two days.

Fortunately, my memo, although not presented to senior management, ensured that my staff and I followed all stated procedures and so, the sh**t didn’t hit our fans. Needless to say relations have since been very icy but when it comes to best practices for all things IT, there are no further challenges.

The moral of this personal story? Sexism still exists in so many facets, some more subtle than others, that unless all are on the same page it will never be eradicated. Another proof in point, look at the mess in the Middle-East and in Africa. Women are still being subjugated and that same (both religious and cultural) attitude is being dispersed through immigration world wide. I support immigration and respecting all cultures and religions regardless of my own situation. However, when it comes to importing sexual discrimination practices, we don’t need anymore. We need to fix our own, now and forever.

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