General discussion


Steve Jobs of Apple is a Cheat / Crook or particularly dumb

By Dr Dij ·
Apple admitted that Steve Jobs backdated options. They denied he knew this was 'wrong'. Well, they say ignorance of the law doesn't make you innocent.

This is almost as bad/stupid as buffer overflows. If I hear of another company that 1) has a software produce with buffer overflows allowing criminal spyware syndicates to Zombify the PC, 2) loses their data on a lapotop, or 3) backdates options, I may go on a shooting rampage (probably with my digital camera of course, very relaxing :).

Apparently Job's internal buffers were overflowing if he's really that 'hard of thinking' to put it politely. Sadly, people like Mad Money stock show guy think backdating is good for companies, as it shows they're raking in the money, and the public is likely to forget about the lying cheating crooks in charge..

Now I've had my rant, what do others think?

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Goes on everywhere in business, not just Apple

by davemori In reply to Steve Jobs of Apple is a ...

That article about Jobs and backdating came out quite a while ago.

I don't know why you're so upset about Steve Jobs, unless you happen to personally own a lot of Apple stock, or unless you just happen to hate everything associated with Apple.

You think that this does not happen at Microsoft, Sun, Oracle, Tyco, Enron, or any other place? You think for a moment that unethical behavior does not exist in businesses in France, Japan, Germany, India, China, the UK, or any third world country?

If it did not happen regularly in the Fortune 5000 world, there would not be a law prohibiting it.

Executives generally have the power through threat of firing people to do anything that they want. There is always some employee scared enough about his/her job, and stupid enough to go along with breaking the law.

Stupidity and ignorance is not a crime, that is why it is used as a defense by politicians and business executives.

A business is just like a government - you get the kind of leadership and management and employees that you want. Somebody had to make the decision to hire them, just like some lower level person in accounting, handling the backdating had to make the decision to go along with an executive order that they probably knew was unethical.

Who cares anymore? If the lower level person had the guts to stand on ethics, it would have just resulted in getting fired. They would have eventually found someone else to do the dirty work.

This is not an Apple or a Steve Jobs issue. It is a general lack of ethics in business leadership in Fortune 5000 companies.

As for stock market people, the only thing that they care about is having a larger net worth at the end of each month. Even market analysts don't mind giving 100% wrong or misleading advice if it means that they can buy a stock cheaper or sell a stock higher.

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Why don't they

by Dr Dij In reply to Goes on everywhere in bus ...

just give themselves more money? the boards surely can't be stupid enuf to want to go thru earnings restatements, loss of confidence, etc?

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Why don't they just give themselves more money?

by maxwell edison In reply to Why don't they

Because in the government's scheme to "tax the rich", or I should say, to pacify their constituents by giving that false impression, it's to their financial advantage to take their compensation in the form of stock or stock options instead of cash. Stock and stock options are taxed at a lower rate than salary; and the proceeds could even be tax free, either all or in part, depending on how they might be reinvested.

I will absolutely guarantee you, regardless of which political party you support or oppose, that whenever a tax is placed on "the rich", they're given exceptions, exemptions, and alternatives that only Congress and a team of lawyers can figure out. Why do you think rich Democrats (Kerry, Kennedy, et al) favor "taxing the rich"? Because they create such loopholes for themselves and their rich friends, that's why. And they want to give the (false) appearance that they're "for the little guy"!

This is the kind of thing we get when we allow the government to tax income, investment, and productivity. And it's one of the primary reasons I favor taxing consumption instead of income.

(Note: My support for taxing consumption instead of income would, in essence, make allowances for people to make tax-free purchases for living necessities, and it would not be assessed on lower income people at all. Yes, there is a way to do that.)

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by JamesRL In reply to Why don't they just give ...

Not sure about US tax rates, but in Canada the tax rates on capital gains are half those of money earned through salaries.

Consumption taxes are good, but hard to implement. In Canada, the conservatives replaced a corporate tax on manufacturers with a Goods and Services Tax (GST) in 1987. Now despite the fact that manufactured goods prices actually decreased (not many noticed but I did), people were up in arms, because the tax was more visible - when the tax was on manufacturers it was just passed on in the form of higher prices, when it was visible, everyone got angry. The conservatives were kicked out of power partly due to GST backlash.

Exempting groceries(not restaurant meals), rent/mortgage, heat, etc. from consumptive tax is not hard.

The current system of loopholes encourages all kinds of twisted behaviours like manufactured losses (The Producers anyone?) and weird invetments. And we still have people earning millions who can afford great tax lawyers who pay little or no income tax. This adds nothing to the economy.

By all means tax consumption. It would have to be done in stages to gain acceptance. But it makes the most sense.

Edit: minor edits.


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in my world

by Jaqui In reply to Goes on everywhere in bus ...

stupidity is a summary offense, and carries a mandatory death penalty.
[ summary means no court, just shot and killed for being stupid ]

ignorance, you get one chance to learn, then you are shot for stupidity. ]:)

clean the gene pool, kill stupidity.. include offspring of stupid people.
[ make sure the stupid gene is eradicated ]

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Ignorance is a crime

by Tony Hopkinson In reply to Goes on everywhere in bus ...

it's not a defence in law either.

I didn't know stabbing him in the head would kill him your honour, I'm not a doctor. Not going to fly is it?

Who's responsible for ignorance, the only people not guilty of it are those who are too stupid to realise that they are.

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What law?

by bsnsimo In reply to Steve Jobs of Apple is a ...

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the law Jobs violated? I have heard many words about backdating options, but no one has pointed out the relevant law covering it.

Thanks, Ben

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Pure rubbish.

by naols125 In reply to Steve Jobs of Apple is a ...

You're a fool. Pay particular attention to the facts. Did you get your doctorate from a mail-order service? You really do live in La-la land.

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Still Waiting, Dr -

by bsnsimo In reply to Steve Jobs of Apple is a ...

What is the law that Jobs violated and what are its applicable provisions to Jobs' case??

Thanks, Ben

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