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The cause of the degradation of programming

By Jaqui ·
In the Discussion about MS targeting apache,

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=85&threadID=175795&start=0

A side ceoncern about programming came out.

did ms's basic, visual basic and simple programming cause the degradation of programming from an elite skill to glorified macro writing?

after all, we all know that writing sql queries for mssql, oracle, dbase, mysql, postgresql, interbase, db2......... is now concidered high programming skill, yet in reality, it is little more than a basic part of any office clerks job.
create the queries to get the data you need from the database for the report you are generating, or correspondence you are putting together etc.

is not programming creating the application, such as orcale server, mssql server etc?

how did general clerical tasks become concidered programming?

when are we going to remind employers that macro scripting is for general office staff, programming is creating the application the script runs in?

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True

by tagmarkman In reply to Commoditization is the re ...

Correct... I was having this very conversation on another article. Programmers did it to themselves. It happened because of a number of reasons an you just listed one of the biggest.

Developer put a very low value on their work because they wanted "experience" they wanted "recognition" they wanted "immediate" financial satisfation and a low price seemed just find for their current lifestyle and didn't think too far ahead or how it would effect he economy if eveyrone followed suit. Then there was foriegn visas and outsourcing that slammed the nail in...

"Just make it work" cost us dearly but the labor market is what really did us in and we did nothing to protect ourselves... I tried a long time ago but I eventually threw up my hands after talking to deaf ears and concentrated on my work.

And BTW: I think I hired most of them too :) cause I don't see many of them anymore. At least I know you picked them up and they didn't become waiters.

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btw

by Jaqui In reply to Commoditization is the re ...

I do not.
( work for you )

but, since I only support professional quality oerating systems, any company that has support for m$ products will never get me.
( making assumption based on the 90% of companies focussed on m$ crap )

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Luckly

by tagmarkman In reply to btw

Luckly... my business is not limited to Microsoft. Most of the business deals with Unix OSes.

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yeah..

by Jaqui In reply to Luckly

here the only unix only shops are mainframe shops.

the others are *x webservers with windows desktops

rarely *x servers with windows desktops.

so when they are looking for someone to support thier networks, specifying *x skills, then they say also win2k/xp/nt I start laughing as I walk out.
sorry but windows support is from microsh|t, not from me. if m$ won't support thier product why should I?
( an m$ has no real customer support, even for business customers )

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Yes and absolutely not :)

by tagmarkman In reply to Luckly

"here the only unix only shops are mainframe shops.
the others are *x webservers with windows desktops
rarely *x servers with windows desktops."
Very true...
We have 95% Unix Servers (FreeBSD, IRIX, and SUN) we even have a Vax (gasp) and about 5% Windows Servers (a necessary evil in our work).
Client side we have about 80% Windows and 20% full mix of IRIX, SUN, Linux, FreeBSD, Mac, and a few others include WinRiver and such.


"an m$ has no real customer support, even for business customers"
Incorrect. Corporate support is alive and kicking. A lot of effort goes into this especially with the OEMs and large business partners. End-User support is pretty limited which is what you are probably basing your judgement on.

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okay,

by Jaqui In reply to Luckly

so how much a month on top of the thosands a month ( pro rated ) for the software licensing?

good money after bad to use windows.

I was actually referring to m$ response to a service call for a full install of windows.
" it's an oem, you have to talk to hardware supplier "
me: kay, it's a home built system with a storebought full install, you are the supplier whose product is failing, you are the correct person to be calling.

we can't help you, cause it's not an upgrade version.

so the guarantee that is printed right here means that microshaft willingly chooses to go to court over a breach of contract lawsuit?

no

then you will support this product and get this danged copy of crashware activated before the lawsuit is filed!!!!!!

on 10 separate occasions, dixing people's systems.

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Zero

by tagmarkman In reply to Luckly

"so how much a month on top of the thosands a month ( pro rated ) for the software licensing?"
The support is without charge for the business that I dealt with, but I don't know of the cost for small shops.

"I was actually referring to m$ response to a service call for a full install of windows."
Does ANY company do that that is not a VAR?

"it's a home built system with a storebought full install, you are the supplier whose product is failing, you are the correct person to be calling."
Yep... limited free support (robots) which in my eyes are close to zero. This is something I disagree with but (in their opinion) the store that sells it (according to the reseller agreement should support this).

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Maybe M$ Licensing is different over there in the US

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to Luckly

But here any VAR should not Activate any M$ product as if they do the end user can not read the License agreement and agree with it.

I've run into this problem as well with mass produced systems from places like HP, Dell and the like when they require reloading because the partial install of XP dies or some more hardware is added MS goes through exactly the same thing and tries very hard to make you buy new products preferable Retail not OEM.

The last time that I went through this was with a HP something or other which was all of 3 weeks old and had no AV product installed the system wouldn't even boot and was badly affected by Viruses so the owner wanted a "Clean Install" performed and since they where paying for my time I did exactly this after first cleaning up the system in about 10 minutes. I backed up their data and wiped the HDD reinstalled the software from the Recovery CD's and when I rang MS for product activation they spent at least 20 minutes insisting that it was Pirate Software. I just replied take it up with HP and sorry I do not know where is was bought from as I didn't sell it or buy it I'm only fixing it with what looks like a Genuine COA and the Original HP CD's. I then went on to insist that even the shop that sold it was not responsible as they where only selling what HP supplied so to take it up with HP as if anyone was doing something wrong it had to be HP and not the poor retailer who was selling the HP product. :)

I used to go through the same thing on my test station where I tested new hardware as I would need to reactivate 17 different MS products that actually where only on there for testing purposes and not actually used for anything other than making sure that a bit of hardware didn't interfere with their working. I latter switched that install to a Volume License copy to avoid having to constantly ringing MS for activation codes. It was just plain and simple painful.

Col ]:)

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Activation

by tagmarkman In reply to Luckly

"But here any VAR should not Activate any M$ product as if they do the end user can not read the License agreement and agree with it."
VARs don't activate M$ product here either as far as I'm aware.
Activation has bugged me from day one. It uses hardware identification of several hardware components. Change a few components and it's downright annoying let alone if you buy a few of those components though Ebay...

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Progression...

by tagmarkman In reply to The cause of the degradat ...

This is definate a thorn in my side. It certainly has help degrade our profession.

I'm not convinced that it was the tools that were developed that caused the "dumbing down" of development.

From pioneer to early adapter to mainstream, you are going to see this progression. It bothered me because low skilled people were being called developers even though the pioneers and even the early adapters knew otherwise.

We never pushed for the formalization of program degrees and certification that other engineering fields did. They are more protected than we are because of that.

We never did a good job at segregating our work and advertizing what we did and create ligitamacy. We wanted to be left alone to do the "real" work. In the meantime, the kid down the road was considered a technical expert because she could hook up a modem, the receptionist was a technical whiz because he could turn on the computer and use a spreadsheet, and a person that could mark up some webpage was a developer.

We got lumped into one group be it computers, IT, or software development.

When the "money" started to come in, eveyone tried to pass themselves off as a developer. And they often managed it. When they showed they were less than adaquate, it reflected on us and hurt the industry.

Although, I said that I don't think the software "caused" the problem. I do think it contributed or at least made it easier. Similar to the issue that printers had when everyone "became" a desktop publisher because they had "Word" or "Word Perfect". Or how some people can crack because of the "tools" that were created not because they can really have the skills.

Can we regain our status? Maybe.

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