General discussion


The cause of the degradation of programming

By Jaqui ·
In the Discussion about MS targeting apache,

A side ceoncern about programming came out.

did ms's basic, visual basic and simple programming cause the degradation of programming from an elite skill to glorified macro writing?

after all, we all know that writing sql queries for mssql, oracle, dbase, mysql, postgresql, interbase, db2......... is now concidered high programming skill, yet in reality, it is little more than a basic part of any office clerks job.
create the queries to get the data you need from the database for the report you are generating, or correspondence you are putting together etc.

is not programming creating the application, such as orcale server, mssql server etc?

how did general clerical tasks become concidered programming?

when are we going to remind employers that macro scripting is for general office staff, programming is creating the application the script runs in?

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I would probably have fun with this...

by RayJeff In reply to too true,

If that had happened to me at any of my past jobs, I think I would've enjoyed the challenge. And especially if I was left to my own vices... *laughing*.

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by Jaqui In reply to too true,

the printout is the base lfs system.
all gui elements are in blfs, which is a download you would have to get.

so it's a full day of work to get a functional workstation.

set it up to your liking, but you only have one day.

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God you would get along with me then

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to Be there

At every opportunity when I go to the big places for any reason and back in the old days it used to be for new product launches I would constantly be missing in the museum playing with the old stuff.

The new stuff didn't interest me in the slightest as I could play with it every day to my hearts content but that old stuff in their museum's was something that I would very likely never get another chance to play with so I made the most of it.

I particularly liked a developer that I taught several years ago now come up to me at a presentation he was giving for one of the big boys in town and claim that Boolean is dead! I just asked what language was used to store the data on any digital storage surface like a HDD or CD/DVD, he went into great detail about what language was being used to actually write the code but had simply over looked the machine language that it was converted into for storage.

He was one of my biggest failures although since then he has began to understand that at the very least he doesn't any longer know it all and is starting to get better. :)

Col ]:)

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I think I would get along with you :)

by tagmarkman In reply to God you would get along w ...

Boolean is dead that's a good one! Just give them a copy of "CODE". I suppose that it's just a coinedent that decimal numberics on computers tend to be exponential binary equiviants ]:).

I'm a nut with the old computer stuff too. I tend find myself collecting computers. I have about 40 unique computers systems (game consoles included) in my hobby room. I even have 9 track reel to reels, you'd get such a kick out of it.

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I've met some very capable

by Tony Hopkinson In reply to Be there

graduates, ones who understood the points I tried to get across first time.
For the ones who wonder what they could possibly learn off someone without a degree and don't pay attention I provide a shoulder to cry on, when the screw up big time after not following one of my suggestions. Any that screw up the same way twice I figure bought their bit of paaper instead of earning it and treat accordingly.
My estimation is any number of years at college = 0 years experience.
Two critical skills missed every time as far as I've seen at least in the UK, how to read someone elses code, and how to read your own six months later.
Readability is step one, without it, kiss everything else goodbye

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it's more

by Jaqui In reply to I've met some very capabl ...

an attitude than an ability issue though.

a good attitude is the one that listens and learns.

the problem is, most recent graduates have the attitude that they don't have anything to learn now.

only met a few formally trained people that don't have that attitude, unfortunately.

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I've been fortunate

by tagmarkman In reply to I've met some very capabl ...

I've been fortunate with the people that I've hired. All of them have a desire to learn, and all of them understand that we know very little compared to all of the information out there so we better listen to one another... even if we don't always agree.

If you get stuck on a development issue for 30 minutes, you get help from someone. Too many times have I seen a good developer get suck on a problem for hours only for a junior dev to notice the problem in a few minutes.

We always respect the person and that allows us to slam the **** out of the code that is produced without people getting defensive about their code. I try to move projects around to different developers often. It broadends the developers understanding of the whole system, it discourages an individual from becoming too personal with the code, and it forces everyone to write clean readable code (or else their peers will freak out on them.)

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by Jaqui In reply to I've met some very capabl ...

which it what should be happening.

a good example of bad codeing practices is the linux kernel. :)
some of the least readable code around.
with the poorest commenting.

written by old school hackers for old school hackers.

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Yup with the Kernel

by tagmarkman In reply to I've met some very capabl ...

"a good example of bad codeing practices is the linux kernel. :)
some of the least readable code around.
with the poorest commenting."

I'll agree with you there... to make matters even more difficult the only book that I've read of O'Riley's that I hate is the Linux Kernel one... There are just soo many things in it that are blatantly incorrect.

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the kernel source,

by Jaqui In reply to I've met some very capabl ...

even though modular in design. has code for evey filesystem type, for evey device on a system.
( maybe not newest device support but support for evey type of devcie ) this creates a huge pile of source code for it. a generic config wheen compiling it adds support for crap that you don't need on your system.

or worse yet, a distro uses a device type that your bios doesn't recognise, so when the device type gets loaded during boot it locks the system up.
( my system with scsi drivers actually, makes suse useless for me )

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