General discussion

Locked

The Real Threat of The Patriot Act. How it undermines the Constitution!

By sleepin'dawg ·
This concerns the USA PATRIOT Act, a U.S. law about which most of us are ignorant and is not widely understood. You need to understand it because this Act could have a major impact on you -- and on your wealth. Try to learn more about The Patriot Act, it's not very easy because it is spread out all over the place. The link below can get you started. You may find it interesting, to say the least.

THREE QUESTIONS

Consider these serious questions, the answers to which could determine what happens to your cash, your investments and, ultimately -- to you and your family:

1) If you are a U.S. citizen or resident of the United States, and you have an account at a bank, do you know the name of your banker?

2) Do you know the name of even one official that works at the bank where your accounts are kept?

3) If all the cash in your bank account suddenly was frozen, who would you call? What would you do? How would you get it unfrozen?

Chances are, if you're like most Americans (and like me), you don't have answers to these questions. Even if you have a private banker whom you know well, what I am about to say still applies to you -- even more so, since you probably have greater wealth involved.

But your banker -- whether you know him or not -- knows everything about you and your finances -- and he and his staff are watching your every move -- because the U.S. government forces bankers to act as spies, reporting on you, on all of us, to the federal money police at the U.S. Treasury Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FINCen).

HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?

A national crisis, such as the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, immediately encourages a 'do something' reaction in politicians of every stripe. The greater the crisis, the swifter -- and more unthinking -- the solution politicians concoct.

At such times, a herd mentality takes hold that overcomes logic and reason. Having served eight years in the U.S. House of Representatives, I can attest first hand to this dangerous political phenomenon. Just six weeks after the September 11th attacks, on October 26, 2001, a panicked U.S. Congress adopted the so-called 'USA PATRIOT Act.'

The PATRIOT Act became law with great haste and secrecy. In the name of the 'war on terrorism,' Congress passed this questionable legislation giving the U.S. executive branch and its police agencies sweeping new powers that undermine the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The Act (all 362 pages of it) was passed with little debate by senators and congressmen, most of whom did not, and could not even read the bill, because when the final vote was taken, no printed copies were available.

In my opinion, the Act constitutes the greatest single governmental assault on personal and financial privacy in U.S. history. Already three U.S. district courts have ruled parts of the Act to be unconstitutional.

The Act is being used for purposes that have nothing to do with fighting terrorism undefined but everything to do with unchecked police surveillance, wiretapping and secret searches of homes and offices. Fully 125 pages of this Act concern individual financial activities as well as U.S. and offshore banking and finance.

WHAT IS THE THREAT?

The PATRIOT Act permits:

* secret FBI and police searches of your home and office

* secret government wiretaps on your phone, computer and/or Internet activity

* secret investigations of your bank records, credit cards and other financial records

* secret investigations of your library and book activities

* secret examination of your medical, travel and business records.

* the freezing of funds and assets without prior notice or appeal

* the creation of secret 'watch lists' that ban those named from air and other travel

You may think you are immune from these radical police powers - but as many innocent Americans have discovered, anyone can be caught in the government's unthinking surveillance web -- with little or no judicial review or appeal.

In 2004, in the same week that the New York City Council voted to condemn the PATRIOT Act, a USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll found that while most Americans back the anti-terrorism ideas behind the Act, they are not only confused, but woefully ignorant of the provisions of the law and how it is being administered.

What can you do about this??? How can we protect ourselves??? It would be interesting to hear what others here are aware of and are thinking about. The Patriot Act was born out of a dire need to protect the USA from any further threats of terrorism but has it gone too far??? If so, what should be done to correct the potential abuses of it??? Or are we going to respond only with apathy to the potential stripping away of all our freedoms and rights???

Here are a couple of links to help people learn more of what The USA Patriot Act is and you can learn about the potential threats to your freedom, especially the risks to your personal wealth, regardless of whether you have lots or little. How would feel if all your assets were frozen by some whim of a governmental official who has mistakenly targetted you as a terrorist. There have been horror stories of people's assets being mistakenly frozen in the past, over supposed drug dealing and money laundering, because of mistakes made through a mix up of names. The potential threat now is even worse because the scope has broadened and the agencies have been given even broader powers.

http://www.usgov.com/index.php?show=Department+of+justice%2C+laws%2C+the+USA+patriot+act&rsr=sf&submit=Search

http://uscis.gov/graphics/lawsregs/patriot.pdf

Dawg]:)

This conversation is currently closed to new comments.

38 total posts (Page 4 of 4)   Prev   02 | 03 | 04
| Thread display: Collapse - | Expand +

All Comments

Collapse -

But Dawg...

by faradhi In reply to Max you said you had neve ...

We have to protect citizens from those Nuns. I mean they wield dangerous rulers. THere is not a set of knuckles in the country that are safe as long as those Nuns are on the loose.

Collapse -

This is meaningless

by maxwell edison In reply to Max you said you had neve ...

To suggest that a bureaucracy -- any bureaucracy -- won't have the occasional snafu is to expect the impossible. And these types of stories aren't sufficient enough to change my mind. If they were, we'd have to do away with absolutely every government agency in existence. At least the nuns got their money back, their fees paid, and a big old apology.

Besides, they deserved it for all those whacks they inflicted on my knuckles with their weapons of mass extensions - yardsticks!

Compare that to the IRS and DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency), and their rules and tactics. There was a guy flying one way from Denver to Las Vegas (or vice versa) quite a few years ago, when, for some reason, he was pulled aside at the Denver airport and questioned by the DEA for suspicion of being involved in some drug crime. He was a burly looking fellow, your stereotypical Harley Davidson, Hells Angel kinda' guy. He had virtually no luggage and ten thousand dollars cash in his pockets. He had no drugs, and explained that the cash was from the sale of a motorcycle. He rode it one-way, sold it to a buyer, and was on his way back home.

The DEA seized the cash because it was "suspected" drug money, and he NEVER GOT IT BACK! I will admit that there's probably more to this story than meets the eye, and I may not recall the circumstances exactly, but it's a known and documentable fact that the DEA and IRS can seize cars, homes, cash, and whatever else they deem appropriate if they "claim" it was acquired from drug money -- even if they can't prove it. And they've been openly doing it for years!

So for people to scream bloody murder over the Patriot Act, but give a pass to the DEA, the IRS, and other such intrusive agencies -- the ones that are REALLY INTRUSIVE - is just a crock.

There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to suggest that the Patriot Act is not used for -- and ONLY for -- the war against terrorism. Without it, we are weaker against those who wish to inflict massive damage to the United States. And as Thomas Sowell recently pointed out in an opinion piece, our constitution was intended for us to live under, not be paralyzed by. And on balance, when it comes to the Patriot Act, the scales of justice fall heavily on the side of protecting the rights of Americans, not denying them.

Damn, dawg'. I thought you were smarter than this. If you can't see all this hub-bub over the Patriot Act as ONLY a ploy by the Democrats to damage President Bush, then you've been flying too high and too long in those open cockpit airplanes. Come back down to earth and get some air. It might clear your head.

Collapse -

Max, when it comes to me and my money, when you mention....................

by sleepin'dawg In reply to This is meaningless

anything at all to do with government I get a bit paranoid. When you are talking about all the nonsense that the pinko, liberal/socialist, Democrasses are blabbing, about civil rights etc, I am in total agreement with you. But you seem to miss my point. I am talking about money here more specifically perhaps, MY MONEY. You don't hear much information regarding individuals, it's only when it involves a group but the information I've been seeing lately is coming from conservatives concerned about the threat being posed to their financial well being.

None of these people give a damn about supposed civil rights abuses under the act and neither do I. What I am concerned about is the potential threat of having my finances seized by an error or mistaken identity and I only ask for the safeguard of being able to quickly rectify the situation.

Maybe you could stand for your finances being screwed up for a few months. I would have problems within days if not hours. What happens to me if and when I can't trade my portfolio??? I wouldn't mind the threat so much if there were a sytem in place to quickly clear myself and regain control of my accounts but there isn't and as of this moment the process could take months if not years.

It has happened that way with the DEA and IRS and as of now, it is the same, almost, under the Patriot Act, except everything is in camera. I don't care about all that other stuff about easedropping or civil rights abuses, I agree, thats just a load of Democrat rhetoric, but when I hear conservative organizations being concerned about threats to personal finances, then my pucker factor rises accordingly.

How would you handle your finances being locked down??? How are you going to live if you can't cash your paycheck as well as pay your bills??? Maybe you should come and take a flip with me; it might **** the cobwebs away. The CIA, FBI, NSA are more than welcome to look me over if it is part of making me more safe and secure, just stay the **** away from my finances. **** I would even put up with an IRS and Revenue Canada audit and if you've ever been on the receiving end of either of those, you know what a pain in the *** they can be but freeze all my finances without warning; no, that I definitely couldn't put up with and if you think you could, I think you would find out you are sadly mistaken.

BTW you should notice I do not reccommend removing this power; I would just like to see an apparatus in place by which one could clear oneself quickly and have control of their finances returned to them asap. It should all be able to happen in 48 hours, weekends included, not the current process which can take months and years. This way the innocent would be able to carry on more or less normally; the guilty would still end up, hopefully, where they belong.

Dawg ]:)

Collapse -

How would I handle my finances being locked down?

by maxwell edison In reply to Max, when it comes to me ...

.
I'd be hosed.

Take a flip with you? Do you mean .... up there?

You betcha! Come on by, dawg'. I'll flip with you anytime.

Let's just agree on most counts and agree to disagree on the other. I wouldn't want to get you pissed. You just might flip me right outta' there!

Collapse -

Well you know what they call Canadians don't you???

by sleepin'dawg In reply to How would I handle my fin ...

You guys call us a bunch of hosers; dont you???:^O

Dawg ]:)

Collapse -

Max, taking you up for a flip would be fun but.............................

by sleepin'dawg In reply to How would I handle my fin ...

would you mind waiting a while; till maybe May or June. You'll find, even on a warm day, it gets colder the higher you go. If I remember correctly your in Colorado, which is in the region of a mile high, even before the kite leaves the ground. You also mentioned interest in open cockpit flying, which at the present time isn't on, if you intend retaining certain parts of your anatomy that identify you as belonging to the maculine gender.

I've never flown any type of open cockpit plane for much more than an hour and a half and aside from the fact I don't own one other than the virtual one you bestowed on me at Christmas, they are fairly slow so I'm more inclined to arrive via something speedier and enclosed and try to borrow an open cockpit kite from some people, I know, in or around Boulder. It would have to be something I'm typed on but that shouldn't be too difficult to find. The other option would be to go up in what I'll be flying, when I arrive in your area and that way I could not only take you up but your sons as well. BTW I've lost your e-mail address and really don't want to pm you from here. I'll explain why later. You could send me your generic address from there.

BTW I have no idea where you are in relation to Boulder and Denver but I'm in and out of Boulder 6 or 7 times a year on business and I'm usually there for a minimum of 5 days at a time.

The open cockpit almost begs to be stunted but I've only done aerobatics from fields less than 1000' ASL so if you opt for the open cockpit don't expect anything too wild from me as I might need some time to get used to the thinner air at your altitude which is another good reason to go with the enclosed plane; they're limited in their stunting capability but at least I know that if I can take you up, I can also bring you back down safely, well at least most of the time.

Dawg ]:)

Collapse -

A person of interest

by AV . In reply to The Real Threat of The Pa ...

This could happen to anyone. Sure, everyone was afraid of Anthrax, but Dr. Hatfill has never been proven guilty. In the process, they ruined his life.

http://www.answers.com/dr.%20steven%20hatfill

Collapse -

Some truth and facts that are PROVEN!!!!

by rickychicago In reply to The Real Threat of The Pa ...

Okay, this post is to inform those who read this forum of what actual HAS and IS going on. I won't go on about theories, just facts and personal experience. Feel free to check my sources. I only ask that when you read this, read it with an unbiased, truly open mind. Wait to form opinions on what I say after you have checked the validity of what I'm saying and apply it to your life with your opinions. This is written to the reader and not a response to a specific post. I will make reference to them, however it's written to you for you from one conscience being to another. The Patriot Act affects someone you know if your social network is based in America. I absolutely 100% can say that is true and here is how.

1. Everyone knows someone who is in the U.S. military. I was at one point also. Did you know that they keep motion detectors in military barracks? I don't mean they have one in a couple places either. In every bedroom there is a motion sensor that will go off with slight movement in light or dark. In every room, every hallway, staircases; no part of that barracks was unmonitored. I never got an answer as to why they had them so I will leave that up to you to decide. Did you also know a sergeant that has been stationed there for three years and spent a good majority of that time in a room with two of these sensors and he thought i was crazy and laughed at me? When I challenged the laughter in the room and proved what I said there was dead silence in the room. 10 or so people had no idea what those red lights were going off over their heads all day were and still don't know why. Unfortunately, I do not have visual evidence of this, so you're going to have to take my word that I'm not going to waste an hour of my time typing all of this simply to "advance their own personal political agenda" as Maxwell Edison (frequent poster on this forum) says the opposition to this act are doing. I am not saying every base is like that, I was only at one base other than combat and basic training. So to the readers that are on a base right now, if yours is not like that, don't discredit what I'm saying; prove me wrong. the Marine barracks on Keesler AFB in Biloxi, MS has them, and no one who I showed the sensor to thought I was crazy after it.

2. Do you know what freedom is? Take a second to think of the freedoms you enjoy on a daily basis; freedom of religion, speech, unbiased free media. Now come up with YOUR own definition of the word freedom. Here is Merriam Webster's definition:http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freedom. See some common words you've heard before? Any synonyms you recognize? Now let's apply this to everyday American life.

A. Speech: Freedom of speech applied with the definition means that you are allowed to say whatever you want without legal action taken against you. If I say I'm going to kill someone or attack a nation that's one thing. What if I disagree with the War in Iraq? Under the Patriot Act, I would be considered a terrorist. Sound familiar? It should. The "red scares" where the American govt. arrested American citizens with no other motive than they were suspected of being a communist. Last time I checked, that's the opposite of free speech. What that says is, "You are free to express your opinions as long as they are held by me (me in this case being the U.S. govt.)." If I'm a communist, shouldn't I also be allowed to voice my opinions? What about the Revolutionary War? Salem witch trials. All these have documented examples of people being persecuted for having beliefs that were of the minority. What's wrong with having that opinion? Isn't that a staple of American life? That was a reason for the American Revolution was it not? The right to represent ourselves? Now let's go back to modern time. Even the young children you see are subjected to it. When I was in school, I was forced under school policy to stand up, place my right hand on my heart, stop what I was doing and say the "Pledge of Allegiance." Where is the free speech in that. Even at a young age we are punished for having opinions contrary to govt. What if I don't want to pledge my allegiance to America? Is that not my right to free speech? Where is the difference in the three historically documented and accurate examples to what is in place today?

B. Press: Three words... the Bush family. Read the article linked here, but read it with unbiased eyes. Don't get caught up in who you like and dislike, who is better than the other, or what political views you have; just look at the facts. The point I'm making has nothing to do with democrats or republicans, just freedom of press. Focus on the control the govt. implemented on the media. http://www.mediastudy.com/articles/jellis.html Once again we see proven examples of how freedom in America is much different than freedom. So what you are actually getting is not the facts when you watch the news, more accurately you get what Maxwell Edison was talking about except he was wrong about who is doing it. The media is a tool the govt. uses to project the images they want people to see, not what is actually going on. Shocking isn't it. Pause a second that's a lot to take in. The truth is right there. It rocks your world i know, but it's the truth. All of the facts regarding the ties to govt. and media were presented right there in front of you were they not? Then why is it so hard to believe, crazy even? Because look at who has been spoon feeding you nonsense for years. Like me you probably didn't know any better. The Bush family is one of many as you have seen if you read the article, and I use them because everyone knows their name, and because they are so deeply rooted in American politics. Again, I am not a democrat or republican defender, I'm just giving facts and asking you questions.

C. Religion: Do you have the ability to practice any religion you please? Can you be a Jew, Pagan, Christian, Satanist, etc. legally? Stop and think about it. What do YOU think. Truth is the only religions that are legal in the U.S. are ones that support the U.S. govt. agenda. The Patriot Act backs that up 100%. The very beliefs of some religions challenge the American political system and way of life. The religion most identified with in politics is Christianity. "God Bless America," "In God we Trust," "One nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." What if I don't believe in the Christian god? If I insert my belief in the above phrases, it's seen as anti-American and political blasphemy. If people want to institute religion in public tax paid education that's fine isn't it? Isn't that giving people the freedom of religion in schools? Well actually it's not and here is why. To have that freedom of expression be okay, you also have to allow other views to be present. Why is it that Pagan views are seen as "evil" and "demonic" and "devil worshiping" "Satanic?" Pagans don't believe in Satan so how is that possible? Just because I believe something does not mean you have to, and being punished for saying such is once again the opposite of freedom when the linked and unbiased definition of freedom is applied. That's called having an opinion and being allowed to voice it.

D. All of these "freedoms" are punishable by law under section 802 subsection 2 of the U.S. Patriot Act. I will provide the link to the Patriot Act PDF I'm referencing, but here is the section: Section 802 simply modifies this last element to include acts that appear to
be intended to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination
or kidnaping.
It defines domestic terrorism as those criminal acts dangerous to human life,
committed primarily within the United States, that appear to be intended to intimidate
or coerce a civilian population, or to influence a governmental policy by intimidation
or coercion, or to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction,
assassination or kidnaping, 18 U.S.C. 2331(5). Okay, see anything odd about that? Isn't that what the American govt. does everyday all day? By applying the combined definitions of domestic and coerce you see the recurring theme of American govt. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coerce http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/domestic You read examples of them doing exactly what they are punishing people for. By forcing beliefs via the media, the education system and the U.S. Constitution, they are guilty of all charges and the evidence needed to prosecute you've read. They have made it illegal to disagree with them. But we are free? Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness? All men are created equal? Makes you wonder how free we really are.

3. Now that we've established that the American govt. is up to more than they tell you, let's look at the origins of the word government. The word government originated from the Latin language and when literally translated from Latin roots says "control mind" or control of the mind. Now there starts to really be a huge issue. Not only is the govt. taking our freedoms mentioned above, but they are literally, as you just read, are implementing control over your thoughts. Take a breath again and let it sink in. What about that statement is false? Don't play defense for the govt. and say I'm crazy for suggesting they are doing it. We already established they were giving you lies and half truths to fit there needs didn't we? To get you to think and act for them? Look at the examples as what they are. Proven facts. Unlike "modern science" where most of what they go off of is assuming a THEORY is true, look at facts. The last time a govt. was exposed for doing this at the scale the American govt. has was the Nazi party. They elected Hitler. He told them he was only wanting four years in office then to step down. Literally. But with the control of media and giving the people something to take nationalistic pride in, well the rest is history. Don't look at the differences in what Hitler ended up being, look at the similarities of the freedoms he took all the way from speech, religion, thought even. Now compare the U.S. govt. to that. No difference in principal. Just different in what they do with the control they have.

Take from this post what you will. It's up to you. Your choices, opinions and thoughts matter. Not the regurgitation of what people say, but your personal thoughts. As promised here is the link for the Patriot Act PDF I used as a reference http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/usapatriot/RL31200.pdf Read and find out why I am a "terrorist" because I gave a side other than the one they give you. Also question what I say. Not doubt what I say, question it, validate it, prove it right or wrong with facts that have been proven to you, not what you heard on TV or at Wal-Mart in the checkout line. With this attitude you will find there is much more to the life you live. These are only a small group of examples based around freedoms we as American residents believe we have when we really don't in conjunction with the Patriot Act.

Back to Community Forum
38 total posts (Page 4 of 4)   Prev   02 | 03 | 04

Related Discussions

Related Forums