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  • #2183768

    Unionize IT Now!

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    by squaredge ·

    Every two years a new OS comes out. Every two years a new crop of young freshly studied certs show up and underbid the the entire industry. I live in Boise. I just saw an ad in the paper here for a lan tech for $12/hour! When I first started in this industry I was making very good money. I had a new cert and a master’s degree. Microsoft has promised the industry captains that the cost of doing business will go down. It’s because Microsoft has trained way too many MCSE’s and/or we are letting people into the industry without MCSE’s. They haven’t earned their space. I say we unionize the IT sphere!
    I say we apply rules of work that apply to a 40 hour work week and serious overtime. I say we demand $50/hr for any IT related work, as a minimum. If we join together we have the power to run this world!

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    • #3252353

      Iowa Salaries

      by bfilmfan ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I’ve noticed that salaries in Iowa tend to be very low. I am sure it costs less to live there than in a number of other places.

      My advice is to relocate.

      • #3132797

        To what end?

        by propellerheadus ·

        In reply to Iowa Salaries

        What exactly would unionizing IT accomplish? If its more money you want, try consulting (but that is pretty hard work and not everybody can hack it, trust me).

        You have to pay your dues before you can sing the blues. Work five years or so, be good at it, get noticed, keep learning, and you will find success. That’s the IT game in a nutshell.

        • #3132639

          To what end: redux

          by tonyackerman ·

          In reply to To what end?

          “Work five years or so, be good at it, get noticed, keep learning, and you will find success.”

          Simple response, no offense intended:

          Bullshit.

          By the time you’ve spent enough time learning the niche that you service, some muddle manager will determine that you’re now too expensive and the same work can be done by two headcount at Wipro India for half the cost. You’ll be out on your ear faster than a single bit down an empty fiber pipe.

          Read the writing on the wall folks. The work is being offshored faster than it’s being created. Like any other decent paying industry that had it’s roots in this country, we’ve mananged to export this industry also, tho’ the turnaround time on this was remarkably short. If you think it’s going to stop, you better take a good long hard look at the economics of this industry and realize the bottom line is all that counts. In short, anyone worth a damn is going to be too damn expensive.

          There’s a reason why companies want the H1B visa cap lifted and it’s not because they can’t find qualified people here, there are plenty! The folks from overseas are cheap and end up essentially as indentured servants. If they don’t like the way they’re being treated, worked or payed, the sponsorship for their visa can always be yanked and they can go back home (and don’t tell me it can’t happen, it does, I was on the sidelines watching it happen ).

          There will always be some degree of IT work onshore, but unless you think working for Geek squad is a real career, these are difficult times for our line of work. Forget trying to find a new position if you’re over 45 in this business unless you’re Mark Lucovsky. Forget about the halcyon days of the dot com era, it’s gone.

          Do we need to unionize? Absolutely! If for no other reason than to establish a political front where we can influence the machinery that has some modicom of control over how much of our industry does and does NOT get exported. Maybe, just maybe we can exert some influence how the poor bastards in India are being treated and make it better for them, and in the process level the playing field. It’s too late to stop it, all we can do now is try to slow it down and influence how it develops from here.

          Otherwise, you want to work in the business? Start packing your bags and head to India.

          (I’ve been in the business since ’86, degrees in CS, Physic and Mathematics, worked at some of the biggest names in the industry. I have the street creds so don’t even think it.)

        • #3132480

          Well said, Tony

          by davidlburkett ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          I just re-read your posting. I think that you’ve said it all.

          I hate to be so negative, but I simply don’t see any light at the end of the IT employment tunnel. I would NEVER advise anyone to choose IT as a career path.

          I too have credentials and a lot of experience. Fortunately, I’ve found a way to support myself that is not IT-centric.

        • #3103234

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by phurcum ·

          In reply to Well said, Tony

          I am lucky i have a very good job now. After two years of waiting. I just finished working for one of the largest banks in the world,your local bank. i can say that in my group what Tony has described was accurate. while no one in my groiup was “shipped home” that methodology was very much implied on the level above in the States. it’s too bad really, i found the Indians very knowledgeable, bright and wonderful people, mostly operating with this threat hanging over their heads.

        • #3272489

          IT is safe

          by scifiman ·

          In reply to Well said, Tony

          Certainly, some types of IT jobs can be outsourced, whether overseas or some other state. But I consider most of IT to be hardware related. When Betty in accounting can’t print invoices, she isn’t going to sit on the phone troubleshooting with India. She needs a onsite body to fix the problem. Can India swap out a bad video card. Swap drives in a server? Pull a cable? Go up on the roof and realign the Hughes VSAT dish? No, outsourcing sounds scary, but it doesn’t bother me. But then, I’m not a maint. programer. Seems to me that half the companies that try outsourcing come back inhouse when the contract expires, if not sooner.

        • #3273775

          move the whole shop to India

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to IT is safe

          If free-market $12 wages are elevated to $50 by unions, the whole brick & mortar operation will go someplace where workers are reasonable.

        • #3273723

          NO UNION has ever done any good

          by aaron a baker ·

          In reply to move the whole shop to India

          Unions thrive on the bottom line. That being the there is never enough money,or the hours are too long, or the Maternity leave isn’t what it was, there’s always some excuse.
          Funny how there always seems to be a strike at the most inconvenient times for the innocents, “Us” who by the way, pay the Unions, but the Unions make damned sure that they nail us everytime.
          What are they really doing?. What is their end Goal? That THEY will remain needed by the people who they are supposed to be serving.
          Look around you, The Teamsters,The Lumber Industry, The Government Unions, are ANY of them broke? I wonder why. When they call a strike, do they care that it might devastate you financially, hurt your family, wipe you out? Not the Unions.
          So now we’re talking about allowing this Rat Pack into the IT business. Sure let’s do it and then watch as everything we’ve ever worked for is whittled away and taken from us with little or no help fro the God Almighty Unions.
          Oh they would put on the usual “Show” but the result would be the same.
          Man, Don’t talk to me about Unions.They are not about People, they are avarice, greed and their own self interests.
          So by all means open the door and invite the Bloodsuckers in, then watch the IT industry die a slow and painful Death
          Good Luck, especially if THEY get in.
          Aaron 🙂

        • #3273717

          conspiracty theories are crazy…

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to move the whole shop to India

          only if the people “in charge” are completely honest. I know I don’t believe that they all are, and I believe that coercive wage controls are irrational because “value” of all goods and services are determined by the phenomenon competition, which only exists in systems where there is freedom of choice. Without economic competition and choice, the term value itself is meaningless. So, without knowing the history of labor unions in as much detail as you seem to have, I can say that all seems very plausible.

        • #3272057

          To Aaron, not true in the UK anyway

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to move the whole shop to India

          I’m alive because of my union, I did 19 years in heavy industry, without my union management would have found it cheaper to risk my life. Without unions there would be no legislation safeguarding employees rights as pitiful as they are. Without unions my kid’s would be sweeping up under the machines I worked on. Without unions I’d be letting my boss shag my duaghter in order to keep food on the table. Now the legislation to force employers to acceed to some basic human rightsm is in place and it would be politically inadvisable to hamstring it too much we simply don’t need them as much as we used to.

        • #3271553

          Tony

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to move the whole shop to India

          That’s a pretty low level of respect you just showed for yourself.

        • #3088763

          Is it DpeTrak?

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to move the whole shop to India

          Different histories ?

          You look up the early inception of unions and the labour movement in the UK. I come from a mining village, so I guarantee that in order to keep food on the table at some point I got at least one strain of owner’s blood in me.

          You’ve got to look at it from a historical perspective as well. A lot of my ancestors would gave started working before they hit twelve. My dad used to go out picking coal to earn a few bob and left school at 14 for his first full time job.

          That’ll have been 1954. What do you image it was like in 1854 ?

          Only the union and the labour movement itself gave me the right to vote.

          Before all those people with no self respect got together and fought for their rights and mine, you had to be rich to vote. In fact they fought for yours in a way as american notions of individual empowerment didn’t come from King George and his mates did they ?

          So show them some respect they deserve it as much as the patriots who set up your constitution, it was an effort in some ways even more heroic.

          I’d have probably been there with them, there again several times they lost so I could have been dropping my daughter off at the squire’s place in order to stay healthy enough work for bugger all to feed the rest of my kids, who can say.

        • #3273583

          All your eggs in 1 basket

          by alexp023 ·

          In reply to IT is safe

          Adding to that, do you think every small company is going overseas for their IT work. Consider that each small company needs IT work, but can’t afford a full time “Consultant”. How about a part-time consultant and the consultant finds a few small companies. Isn’t that what Accountants and Lawyers do in the private sector.

          You’re working for one large company that has many Consultants and you’re putting all your eggs in one basket.

          It’s what you make it. It you want it to be miserable, then it will.

          Have a great day!!

        • #3086015

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to IT is safe

          aa

        • #3265639

          IT is NOT safe

          by oldmainframer ·

          In reply to IT is safe

          There are aspects of what some would call IT that are safe, but pulling wires, replacing a burnt-out power supply or dead hard drive is not really IT. That is just a computer repair. It does not pay that well and has little room for growth.

          PC support can be done from anywhere. The company I am at uses remote access to do maintenance. They just log on to YOUR computer from theirs and fix most problems or install upgrades – this COULD be done from anywhere – including India.

          “Development” is what most of us probably think of as IT. Programming, Data Analysis, etc. This area has been moved in a lot of shops to foreign countries. Sure a lot of the code is poor, but they make up for it in volume. This is the scariest area.

          I would NOT advise most people to enter the IT job market. The outlook is shaky at best.

          As to a union… Remember what the big companies dis in times past. They just hired others to do the work. Only now, they won’t have to walk by the picket line. They don’t even have to live in your town – or even your country.

        • #3101944

          odear

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          Collective entities are what got us into this mess in the first place, and now you want to “fix” it by creating more collective entities. There hasn’t been an industry improved by unions in at least thirty years. Unions, like minimum wage laws, increase unemployment by forcing business to consolidate talent, and increase unemployment by destroying businesses. People who advocate unionization typically want something for nothing.

          I’m not saying you necessarily don’t deserve to get paid more: I’m saying that demanding higher wages doesn’t come without a price. If you think entry-level IT is tough to find now, try it after unionization. The domestic IT workforce will be decimated inside a few years if the industry gets unionized. It’ll be prohibitively expensive just to get into this line of work, too. There will be no room left for people who [b]enjoy[/b] the work, ensuring that people who care more about their paychecks than about their work rule the industry.

          Screw that noise. I prefer opportunity over strongarmed handouts.

        • #3101200

          ITSurvivor

          by it survivor ·

          In reply to odear

          Your comments make me think of a time when we had no unions. The Standard oil Trust dominated the land and JP Morgan ran the country. We had 12 year olds works 12 hour days for $1.00 day. People need to study the economic history of this country. We had better wake up before we are the next 3rd world country with a working class that is condemmed to poverty and working conditions that replicate the beginning of the last century.

        • #3102659

          Served their purpose

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to ITSurvivor

          We now have laws preventing 12 yr olds from working, laws preventing 12 hr shifts, and a law stating the minimum wage.

          Sure, Unions were great when the people needed them, but they have outlived their usefulness imo.

        • #3102621

          laws preventing 12 hr shifts?!

          by dkirkham ·

          In reply to Served their purpose

          Laws preventing 12 hr shifts?
          Man what planet are you from?
          There are lots of industries/companies that use a rotating 12 1/2 hour shift, and if you don’t want to work 12 1/2 hours a day then your working for minimum wage.

        • #3102615

          12 hr shifts

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Served their purpose

          Perhaps it would have been better stated:

          Laws preventing 12 hr shifts without being appropriately compensated and with adequate breaks.

        • #3102495

          Correction

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Served their purpose

          > “Perhaps it would have been better stated:
          >Laws preventing 12 hr shifts without being appropriately compensated and with adequate breaks.”

          I was actually referring to children. I meant that a child cannot work more than 20 (or so) hours a week, and much less than 8/day. That’s for kids around ages 14-18?

          Sure, adults can work 12 hrs a day, but yes, with breaks and compensation.

          Sorry for the confusion.

        • #3285953

          Unions are a double edged sword IMO

          by ssmaguire ·

          In reply to Served their purpose

          I now begin to realize that unions are a double edged sword. I work within a school where one of my co-workers is absent so much I don’t even realize she works there. On the other hand when she’s there she eats voraciously, word to the wise don’t put your hand in front of her month, otherwise you won’t be able to work in IT anymore.

          Unions are like insurance, they are there we you need them. They have served as a “check and balance” system, thus keeping employers from overstepping bounds and abusing their employees. They in reality bring to the table a sort of “Purchasing Power Parity” or PPP for short. The unions of today have lost their strength, since no one really belives they have power anymore. This is misinformation, that employers love to instill in their employees. Fear motivates people to sometimes be complacent in things.

          The whole tenet (principle) of capitalism is to capitalize your assets. An employer’s asset in this case would be the workers. Without workers, an employer cannot sell goods or services.

          Well that’s just my take. But as of today, the labor market is so fluid, that employers look for comparative advantage in any way possible. They do not see the consequences of using lowest cost inputs to make their products.

          Take for instance Dell, which had to replace millions of motherboards in their PCs since they burnt out after a year. Now if Dell didn’t decide to cut corners and save on production costs, they wouldn’t have to pay the increase in support costs.

          The only problem is, is that Dell’s profit margin is razor thin, about 15% to 20%. They don’t really have much wiggle room to weather storms. Their existence is rooted upon the prinicple of volume, and Just in Time manufacturing.

          It’s like walking on eggshells, eventually things will crack.

          Another instance of extreme outsourcing is Boeing, who is sourcing parts for their new aircraft from about 10 different countries, to be shipped to Everett, Wash. where they assemble the pieces.

          Considering each plane costs upwards $16 million dollars, while development costs are in the tens of billions. One small mistake costs big money.

        • #3102854

          Third World Country

          by kriaken ·

          In reply to ITSurvivor

          Oh where to start.

          Heavy subsides propping up inefficient and outdated practices.

          A political system which sees the man with the most money and family connection take power.

          Major government appointments going to friends (some with significant criminal records) with no discernable qualifications other than political connections.

          Military terror to force opinions upon people whom disagree with their dogma.

          Economic displacement of a major portion of the population and health services which are near non existent to the majority of the population.

          God Bless America, the third world country without compare.

        • #3101195

          Bravo!

          by justanotherguy ·

          In reply to odear

          It can bad enough answering to the boss you have now. Imagine now you have to kiss some union steward’s arse just to keep your job. Unionism leads to cronyism, retired in place (teacher’s unions for example).

          Is there anything wrong with unions per se? No. But like any other human-centered group, it provides a place for power grabbing and complacency. And who needs more BS (and that’s not Bachelor of Science) in IT anyway?

        • #3101720

          Unins are not the way

          by equintie ·

          In reply to Bravo!

          I had the displeasure working for a major financial paper that had a union for its non-managers. It was the worse `8 month I ever had on a job. It was a trail to get them to perform the simplest of tasks. Those who knew they were protected by the union would use this advantage to the fullest. Below are just a few example of what I had to deal with. From my experience UNIONS are definitely not the way to go. They were cripple the IT innovation the US has become known for and push companies to use other courtiers as resources quicker.

          – After we had sent 3 engineers to a 5 day class on XP for MS certification, they were expected to take a MS cert exam within 6 months. After which, they went to the union with a compliant about the cert exam. The union in turn demanded that the company provide them PAID TIME OFF TO STUDY for the exam! I thought those who wanted to better themselves should do it on there own?

          – Part of our requirement is a contact phone number so a person can be reached at all times for shift changes. When a member moved to another apartment, they refused to give us a phone number until they were provided paid time off to wait for the phone company to install a phone.

          – Several times I would ask for a laptop or desktop to be rebuilt. Knowing these systems are rebuilt the same way each time with auto disks, the union insisted I provide documentation with step by step instructions to address every troubleshooting situation that could happen. When I tried to engagement the engineers to assist with this, the union insisted the manager were responsible for this documentation. They also suggested (which was NOT approved thank god!) if certain situation was not documented the union worker did not have to try and resolve the issue.
          – Also ? I cannot tell you how many times I had to pay for OT to an engineer because they spent an extra 10 to 15 minutes finishing up work with a user before they left for the day. Of course if they were late, I was not encouraged to be negative towards them.

          This is not to say that some of the professionals managed were not good. They were exceptional. One of the problems was I was really not allow to address them individual in public for their good work. The union indicated it was not positive feedback to praise one member and not all. Ridicules! Needless to say I left the organization. Funny thing was 6 months later when I spoke with a couple of the people I managed they indicated the union actually thought I was a decent manager, but they could not admit that while I was there.

          It that the type of union you want IT to have?

        • #3102639

          The solution

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to odear

          to that would be to change the way everyone is compensated… by defining a unit of work output besides time. It would probably be unpopular in some circles though 😉

        • #3268439

          Never Charge by Time

          by jkowolf ·

          In reply to The solution

          If I can create a program that could save the trouble of hiring one minimum wage employee, my value is the biggest piece of this savings I can negotiate. I don’t care if it takes me 5 minutes or 5 months to code.

        • #3102625

          I can’t agree more

          by halibut ·

          In reply to odear

          I can’t agree more at Apotheon’s reply. Unions are great for certain industries. Industries that require certain safety and workplace needs but unionizing for the money is the wrong reason and will backfire to the industry. Would this union include the offshore IT industry or not? If not how would this change a company’s view of the inhouse IT staff?

          I currently work for a company that uses outsourced IT support in Malaysia and India, and our support it has been an absolute nightmare when dealing with them. No local support for this infrastructure has proved problematic, and as the industry sees issues the whole setup will change.

          As for the $12/hour tech, don’t be too worried, there is always bound to be someone that under charges to get the work and as their skill increases their price will go up.

        • #3088849

          That’s no fish story, Halibut!

          by mc68000 ·

          In reply to I can’t agree more

          “I currently work for a company that uses outsourced IT support in Malaysia and India, and our support it has been an absolute nightmare when dealing with them. No local support for this infrastructure has proved problematic, and as the industry sees issues the whole setup will change.

          As for the $12/hour tech, don’t be too worried, there is always bound to be someone that under charges to get the work and as their skill increases their price will go up.”

          I agree with all three of your statements.

          1) Unions can be a Godsend or a curse depending on how and when they’re instituted.
          2) My organization’s costs have gone up as a result the vendors we deal with outsourcing their IT support to Malaysia and India. This is due to increased turnaround time on repairs in the shop. It takes longer to call in the problem, go through the diagnostic process & get them to ship the parts than it does to replace them, re-build the PC’s and get them back on the floor.
          3) I started out as a $12/hour tech 10 years ago and now earn right around $30/hr. Not too bad for guv’nment work, I suppose, when you consider my skills have been aquired 90% OJT and 10% formal training. Not a king’s ransom, but as in Ohio, I’m in a region with a typically lower-than-average pay scale.

        • #3103403

          unions and minimum wage

          by cmcarlson.com ·

          In reply to odear

          Hey lets remember that unions gave us minimum wage, the forty hour work week, OSHA laws and don’t forget your OSHA breaks.

          Just because the UAW is struggling and has become a bloated corporate/thug entity don’t forget that the concept of unions is to protect it’s workers.

          So many times I hear people poo-poo the unions for being a means to protect the lazy. It protects the hard working too.

          Those people who do not like unions tend to be those people who boo-hoo and cry foul when they are randomly downsized and have no recourse except to work a hotdog stand.

          United we stand, divided we crash…

        • #3100542

          AMEN

          by decimumaximus ·

          In reply to unions and minimum wage

          Unite!

        • #3100498

          So…

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to unions and minimum wage

          Unions did such a good job, we don’t need them anymore?

          They have come full circle and now exist just to exist?

        • #3272483

          Bannish unions

          by scifiman ·

          In reply to So…

          Yes, they are really not much needed any more. Not that I wouldn’t mind high pay for little work, but it’s a different era, and raise your hand if you think the end of unions will bring back 8 year olds in sweat shops in the U.S. Decades ago in the industrial ear the were important, but no longer. Time to evolve.

          Unionize, and if my son wants an IT job in the future, he’ll need me to get him in. Then if he sucks at it or is just a slacker, no manager can fire him. Big benefits and pay, light work. Or my son will have to pay $5000 to start his “apprentiship” somewhere. Look at United Airlines, GM, etc. Unions are flushing this country down the tubes.

        • #3087751

          HEAR, HEAR !!

          by bigbadfish63 ·

          In reply to unions and minimum wage

          Unions are good for you, your family and your community!If they are run right!! People forget or just don’t know the history of unions. I agree with cmcarlson! I didn’t pay the money for colledge to earn $10-$12.00 an hr.School cost me a lot of money, sacrfices and hard work.

        • #3087663

          “If they are run right!!”

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to HEAR, HEAR !!

          Unfortunately, whenever humans are involved, nothing is ever run right. I would, however, settle for “less wrong”.

        • #3272487

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by scifiman ·

          In reply to odear

          I agree. For the most part, unions are evil. Except for certain safety areas such as mining, construction, etc. -or standards need to be followed such as electrical work, etc. sure keep unions. All the rest should be bannished. It certainly helps the wealth of the union leadership, but it mostly just another drain on union members paychecks. I for one would change jobs or careers before joining a union!

        • #3272296

          indeed

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          The only reason unemployment rates aren’t even worse in union-dominated industries than they already are is that unemployed people in union industries can’t afford to get back into, or stay in, the union. Thus, they change industries. Voila, unemployment rates in that industry drop.

        • #3089718

          Apotheon and I Agree on Something!!!

          by rkuhn040172 ·

          In reply to odear

          No to unions. They are a waste.

          Does the IT industry need more political clout? Sure, but not by using unions.

          I’ll let the free market determine my wages and if I don’t like it, I’ll move, change jobs, change careers, get more certs or education, etc.

          Whatever it takes, I’ll be there.

          But absolutely, 100% no way to unions.

          BTW, I have made a decent living in IT for many years now and one piece of advice for me: don’t work for the big boys. They screw you over everytime.

          There are plenty of consultant jobs available, small employers, etc.

        • #3087615

          Consultants

          by decimumaximus ·

          In reply to Apotheon and I Agree on Something!!!

          Just wanted to clarify the meanning of a consultant. On who cannot obtain a real job or one who cannot retain a real job.

          This should get some hostile posts….

          Seriously I look in the local phone book once a year. When it’s new just to see how many of those schmuck’s who applied at my company started their own consulting bussiness and sure enough the worst applicants have the biggest adds. but Next year they are gone………….ussually see them working the computer Isle at Costco or Worst buy….Consultants what a joke… With that said there are a small few who are worth a Damb and for those I give cudo’s.

        • #3087543

          how nice

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Consultants

          What about all the worthless pieces of crap holding down 9-5 jobs for corporations?

          There’s deadweight everywhere. The best consultants usually don’t bother getting ads in the phonebook because they get enough work by word of mouth that they don’t need it — until they’re successful enough to hire other people to expand the business, at which point they advertise in trade rags rather than somewhere useless like the yellow pages.

          Don’t judge consulting by your obviously limited experience. Friggin’ troll.

        • #3087527

          Nice thing is

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Consultants

          They sink or swim based on their value. Exactly the way it should be.

        • #3087517

          consultants and unions

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Consultants

          You’re right, adunlap, that’s exactly as it should be. Unions, on the other hand, tend to sort for “sink or swim” based on how long and how reliably someone has been paying his union dues, and they tend to make consulting impossible.

        • #3090365

          Apotheon

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Consultants

          Some people worry more about how much other people have than about whether they are worth what they’re wanting.

          Frankly, compensation is between the employer and the employee and the tax collector. Nobody has any business knowing how much someone else makes.

          The socialists are losing though. Union membership outside of ‘closed shops’ is falling fast (and if union membership is so advantageous, why even have closed shops?)

        • #3090302

          adunlap: one point of disagreement

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Consultants

          The tax collector has no (ethical) business knowing how much money I make. Damned thief.

        • #3089463

          That’s not a disagreement

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Consultants

          That’s a clarification.

          The only people who [b]ought to[/b] know how much you make are you and your employer. How’s that?

        • #3089322

          fair ’nuff

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Consultants

          That works for me!

        • #3088953

          aDunlap : A socialist’s perspective on unions

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Consultants

          It’s vastly annoying to me that I have to basically agree with all you rabid capitalists.

          The main reason I have to is because the opponents you are painting as socialists don’t even start to meet the definition. Anyone in favour of sinecure’s, closed shops, restrictive working practices etc is not a socialist, they are capitalist hypocrites.

          Socialism is inclusive, it’s about bettering the lives of all individuals, not a small minority who paid at the door.

          The guy who started this thread off is a case in point. Many including myself the archetypal socialist tree hugger have jumped on his ass.
          He wants $50 an hour, if the rest of us end up on $10 and have to blow our employers to get that much, he don’t give one. Even worse he wants us to give him $10 a week of our $40 and vote for him so he can get his money and for us to feel happy about it.

          Socialist my f’ass.

        • #3086877

          Yet even among the socialists

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Consultants

          There are those who get favor based on who they know. Human nature is a thorn in the side of all ‘isms’. 🙂

        • #3086659

          “even”?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Consultants

          I’d say “especially”, not “even”. Especially in Socialism, who one knows helps to determine one’s conditions. Socialism relies on bureaucracy, and bureaucracy is effectively synonymous with corruption.

        • #3076479

          Is that a tongue in your cheek ?

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Consultants

          Bureaucracies make you rely on bureaucracies. Got naff all to do with being socialist.

          Certainly most socialist governments tend not to be minimalist, but there again so do most ‘capitalist’ ones. They both have as many rules they just have to enforce, the only things that changes is who is the bad guy.

          Socialist governments tend to squeeze the middle class, capitialist the lower. Upper class never get squeezed that’s what campaign contributions are for.

          You could have a mimimalist socialist agenda, or a minimalist capitalist one.
          It’s just no one has had the bottle for steps one and two
          1) Shoot all the lawyers
          2) Shoot all the civil servants who think we work for them.

          While they are out of the way, go through the rules and get rid of the self perpetuating cruft that these two groups have wedged in there as part of their early retirement plan.

          Then anyone who wants to add anything similar back in, shoot them as well.

        • #3076410

          Most Socialists have a logic problem.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Consultants

          The problem most Socialists have with logic is that they seem incapable of examining the consequences of the policies they envision and espouse within the larger context of the world in which they live. Important factors get left out of their theories, thus providing inaccurate conclusions to arise from their misconceived premises.

          That all applies in this case for this reason:
          You’ve completely misjudged how socialism relates to capitalism in terms of the requirement for bureaucracy.

          Capitalism is, by definition, an economic system wherein the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit (typically by means of gainful employment of labor). The “for profit” part of that is a statement of the mechanism used to sustain the system’s administration so that it doesn’t collapse in upon itself, and requires no outside intervention for sustainability.

          Socialism is, by definition, an economic system wherein the means of production is collectively “owned” and democratically operated by the society at large, with employment of labor being at the whim and behest of the democratic process. In small enough groups, this is viable in a minimalist system that can even equitably deal with the democratic process and ethical treatment of participants, so long as it is assumed that a person may exile him or her self from the system at any time (the converse being a state of slavery). By “small enough groups”, I mean (by my own personal guesstimate) roughly twenty or thirty people at most. Beyond that, bureaucracy is necessary merely to manage the democratic system of operation itself.

          Thus, any significant socialist economies require bureaucracy, and increases in the size of the economy have a tendency to require disproportionately greater increases in the size of the bureaucracy.

          No tongue in cheek here.

        • #3076315

          Excellent (apotheon)

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Consultants

          As the size of bureaucracy grows (not just in socialism), and the more of society’s work product is used to maintain it, the lower that society’s standard of living becomes.

          Big government, no matter who is running it, is a leech.

        • #3076220

          Apotheon: Great Response!

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to Consultants

          Could not respond below, so I will do it here. Please read Apotheon’s response; and for those that still do not get it I suggest you read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand for a complete education.

        • #3076180

          Tony Hopkinson’s *modern capitalism* strawman argument

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Apotheon and I Agree on Something!!!

          Tony, your discussion of the bureaucratic bloat associated with capitalism and socialism ignores the absolute fact that pure capitalism has never been practiced, and that the degree of capitalism is exactly defined by the amount of government interference in economy. Furthermore, when western governments were most capitalist, from the early nineteenth century until the first Great War, their governments [b]were[/b] minimal in their scope, and the complaints of modern socialists were unheard. Until Marx & Engels presented their irrational utopian daydreams.

        • #3076124

          On Government!

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to Tony Hopkinson’s *modern capitalism* strawman argument

          Thought I’d share some professional comments on the job market!

          In France, the young people are rioting. It?s not March Madness. It?s just everyday insanity. They are protesting a new law that would make it easier for employers to hire and fire people below 26 during a two-year trial period. You?d think this would be welcome news to the slackers: youth unemployment in France is over 20%.

          In the States, however, where almost everyone can be hired and fired (unless you?re a member of the New York teachers? union), the 2006 crop of US college graduates is facing the best job market since 2001. ?Business, computer, engineering, education and health care grads in highest demand,? writes a Reuters correspondent. Here in Baltimore, there are help wanted notices in shop windows, on business signs, on billboards, even jingles on the radio.

          ?We are approaching full employment ,? said the chief executive of Challenger, Gray & Christmas.

          In fact, competition for young workers is heating up. Employers have to compete on salaries, perks and benefits.

          Writes the blogmeister of moonbattery.com:

          ?You don?t have to be Adam Smith to notice that there is an inverse relationship between the health of an economy and the degree of government interference. A demented state of affairs in which private businesses are not allowed to fire employees goes a long way toward explaining why the jobless rate of French youth is 23% nationwide, and 50% among the poor.?

          ?Anglo-Saxon? Adam Smith, however, may have a difficult stand against the institutionalized statism bred by generations of Marxists and neo-socialists who have used the past half century to turn large layers of French and European society into passive dependents on state largesse.

          It reminds me of some fellow students I met at the University of Aberdeen in Scotland back in the 1980?s, who were planning to ?go on the dole? for a few years after their graduation. This way, the young Scots would be getting paid by the state for doing nothing, could do anything they wanted – and still feel like victims of ?the system,? the English AND Maggy Thatcher.

          That?s called the European Trifecta!

        • #3076114

          I don’t think any pure ‘ism’

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Tony Hopkinson’s *modern capitalism* strawman argument

          has ever been practiced on a large scale. Human nature won’t allow it.

        • #3076074

          Maybe not, adunlap, HOWEVER

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Tony Hopkinson’s *modern capitalism* strawman argument

          Although capitalism has never been fully implemented anywhere, citing 21st & late 20th century economic dysfunction on capitalism is completely dishonest. There was more capitalism in the United States before World War I, before taxes took a virtually uninterrupted upward turn, which coincided by the way with an ever-increasing disparity between rich & poor.

          Today’s neo-socialists have one thing exactly right: the extreme disparities in distribution of wealth do not correspond to productive ability. What they have not yet admitted is that those disparities are directly caused by the government’s right to interfere in the free function of competition, which they continue to support.

          Worthless morons.

        • #3076148

          Right on! Did you see what happened in France?

          by jeffin90620 ·

          In reply to odear

          Unionization has been a hindrance to economic expansion for decades. In the socialized economies of Western Europe, economic growth has been a third of that in the United States, in part because it is so hard to fire people that businesses don’t hire. Unemployment ranges from 12-24% in unionized countries in Europe.

          Last weekend, there were riots in France over the proposal to make it easier for businesses to fire people. The unions (and the governments) look at jobs as the property of the employees (i.e. the means to pay people money outside of the government dole), instead of what they are (tasks to be performed).

          If businesses cannot adapt, jobs cannot be created and unemployment rises.

        • #3101813

          As in auto industry?

          by raintree ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          Sure, unionize. Like the auto industry. How many jobs are left there? And, let me see, we all know that jobs there are increasing every month, right?

        • #3089555

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to As in auto industry?

          The US autoindustry has not reached the bottom due to labor unions. GM, Ford and whoever hit bottom because they turn out oldfashioned products nobody outside the US wants to buy. They aren’t even at the bottom yet, but it is only a question of time.

          In a time where fuelprices skyrocket, unrest and unstability in the middle east gets worse by the hour, the demand of fuel from China rises by the minute, they market 2? ton 4WD 6-litre V8 powered monsters mostly used for going to the local supermarket.

          In the field of using alternative fuels they are absolutely nowhere, a growing market owned by Japanese and European companies.

          All this is due to poor management, and not labour unions. The cause of most bancrupts can be found in the management floor, not the factory floor.

        • #3087545

          Try Greed

          by raintree ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          The US auto industry (among others) has been brought to its knees by greed. That includes management and the planned obsolescence mentality and labor unions wanting more and more pay and perks until they price themselves out of a job.

        • #3090134

          I have. Greed is good.

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Try Greed

          There are two basic methods of pursuing greed: rational and irrational. The “planned obsolescence mentality and labor unions wanting more and more pay and perks until they price themselves out of a job” are irrational.

          Greed is good.

        • #3101370

          Well said Tony but…

          by technicallyright ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          Well said Tony and although I agree with what you are saying I also agree with Apotheon.

          The IT world is definitely changing and I can’t say for the better.

          I don’t think many people are saying unionize for more money but perhaps to keep the jobs and the money they are currently getting. I don’t think I have ever seen before an industry where the salaries are declining.

          Having said that I don’t think unionizing is the way to go, the auto industry is an excellent example.

        • #3101183

          “Poor Bastards in India”? ARE YOU KIDDING???

          by ralford100 ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          Are you kidding? THEY LOVE IT! Some H1’s are going home so they can make more money (relatively speaking).

          No.. Access to alternate work via exter-national outsourcing is always going to be cheaper and easier. The solution is to provide quality work in shorter time, something that the American industry has been lacking mostly due to greed, greed, and more greed. And… Unions propogate greed even more.

        • #3102667

          India

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to “Poor Bastards in India”? ARE YOU KIDDING???

          I spent 6 months in New Delhi and the surrounding cities working with Engineering staff and management for Whirlpool of India. I can tell you that the vast majority of Indians don’t have a clue of the things we take for granted. Simple things like electricity, clean, drinkable running water, gas heat, air conditioning, clean working conditions… I could go on.
          I paid more for my hotel room for a one night stay than the senior engineers made in a month. Sure they love IT. It’s a job that might keep them warm by burning cow dung and sheltered in a dirt floor packing crate for a family of 6.

          If they’re really successful they might be able to buy a scooter.
          Unionize? No. Change the way our government allows the trade deficits to continue? Good luck! We’re living in a service oriented country. The manufacturing base has long ago gone byebye. $50.00 an hour? Sure. Earn it. The Indians work for $50.00 a month! That’s before THEIR union dues are taken out.

        • #3103219

          You just paid too much…

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to India

          …for the hotel. The salaries in India have been raising to the satisfaction of the IT workers there. Money has been made to rotate, and the middle class in India is now about 300 million strong.

        • #3102360

          Thoroughly chastised.

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to You just paid too much…

          You… assume too much. Have you ever heard of an expense account/contract/reimbursement?
          What do YOU say is the median income and median satisfaction level of the IT employes in India in Rupees/USD in comparison to the US poverty levels?
          What are your references? (Data/Surveys)
          Have you ever been to India, are you from India or are you just “onbliss”?

        • #3272957

          Read how India is changing

          by scifiman ·

          In reply to India

          Just for the archive record:

          http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11571348/site/newsweek/

          Sure, 400 million in India make less than a $1 a day (relative to their local costs, of course) but they’re on the verge of great changes. They’ll get there, and the USA needs India.

        • #3102911

          Lesser of 2 Evils

          by boogaloodude ·

          In reply to “Poor Bastards in India”? ARE YOU KIDDING???

          I’m not sure if I understand, are you saying that American unions would send the IT Jobs overseas out of Greed?

        • #3273747

          too little greed

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to “Poor Bastards in India”? ARE YOU KIDDING???

          to exercise enough discipline to acquire enough skill to compete on a level playing field with the rest of the world. And unions stifle the greed that fuels healthy competition even more.

        • #3273732

          That’s not Greed.. that’s self-respect

          by ralford100 ·

          In reply to too little greed

          Greed is when you join a union, then think you’re better than
          everybody else, so you should get better benefits and better pay
          and when the corporation (AND THE ECONOMY) don’t agree with
          you, perform acts of sabotage, violence, and other unethical
          actions. Greed is when you will say and do ANYTHING to get
          those benefits, regardless of truth.

          Yes, I realize that it’s a stereotype of unions, but that has been
          my experience.

        • #3273721

          Thank you, Ralford.

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to That’s not Greed.. that’s self-respect

          Since self-respect is so often disparaged as “greed”, I defend acquisitiveness, ignoring the negative connotations of the word “greed” that are assumed by imbeciles who consider self-respect a personal affront, simply because they have earned none and experience envy when in the presence of another person’s self-respect, instead of admiration.

        • #3273662

          “Absolutely”

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to That’s not Greed.. that’s self-respect

          You sound like an Objectivist.

        • #3272140

          apotheon

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to That’s not Greed.. that’s self-respect

          Thank you.

        • #3272119

          You’re welcome.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to That’s not Greed.. that’s self-respect

          I guess that answers the question of whether you consider yourself an Objectivist, then. I take issue with some of the details of Objectivism, but I definitely sympathize with the basic principles of Objectivist economics.

        • #3101167

          Nice Rant; Poor Economics

          by mollenhourb9 ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          Your rant shows why IT types aren’t taken seriously in the rest of the business world. If all you know is technology and not business processes or who the company functions (not how the LAN, WAN, etc. passes information around the company), then you are “just a tech” in the eyes of the organization. The sad truth is that a trained monkey can learn technical skills, and India (and soon China) have the best trained monkeys in the business. It is no different than what happened to the auto industry, the accounting industry, etc.

          As any job becomes mature, the gut level work becomes less skilled and more “factory” oriented. Declining wages are inevitable. Unionizing will only serve to further isolate you from the rest of the business world and give the big-wigs more reason to outsource your job. Find a different career. I had to.

        • #3102573

          precisely so

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Nice Rant; Poor Economics

          When a domestic industry gets into a routine, repetitive work in the industry gets cheaper. When workers start pulling extortionist crap like unionizing for better wages, the industry starts moving to other countries. Once that happens, jobs disappear, and the unions become useless tumors sucking the remaining domestic workforce dry while convincing them that unions are their buddies.

          If you think outsourcing is bad for your career, just wait until the company isn’t outsourcing any longer because it followed the outsourced jobs overseas.

        • #3103011

          I could not have said it better!

          by james ·

          In reply to precisely so

          Right on! A fellow Conservative! 🙂

        • #3103005

          not really

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I could not have said it better!

          I’m a libertarian. Some would call me fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I would just say I’m a free-market capitalist who believes government shouldn’t be all up in my sh*t.

        • #3087620

          Commoditization

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to precisely so

          2. When a product becomes indistinguishable from others like it and consumers buy on price alone, it becomes a commodity.
          When your industry reaches this point, then the migration to lower cost producers will always occur. Usually it starts with things like manufacturing and other blue collar trades, and then moves to white collar professions as developing countries churn out lots of college grads.
          Specifically for IT, as business knowledge is codified and abstracted, it is developed into COTS applications which reduces the need for one-offs and custom applications. This is evident in all of the ERP, CRM, Accounting, etc. packages that exist in the marketplace.
          Since there becomes less of a need to develop custom software, there becomes less of a need to hire developers. So the value moves up chain to the implementors which requires little or no coding, just customization of the application to fit the “unique” needs of the new COTS customer.
          All businesses seek to drive cost out of their product or service to make it more appealing to their customers. This has been going on in the computer industry for decades and we are now seeing the effects.
          Once commoditization occurs, the margins evaporate and the primary mission is to drive out cost or you concede the business to someone else.
          The bottom line is this will happen whether there is a union or not. If you are in a union and this happens, more likely than not you will have to now rely on your own individual skills to become employed again, just as you would if there were no union!

        • #3087537

          good analysis

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Commoditization

          That’s a pretty good analysis of the situation — and I like your username.

        • #3102596

          Tony’s Rose Colored Glasses

          by too old for it ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          The US is on the way to becoming the next third-world cesspool. Hell, in some places (major cities) it already is: Turf ruled by gang leaders and war lords who would sooner shoot you as not. The Crips, the Bloods, the MS-13 .. THEY are in control now. The elected government just goes through the motions. The police send out a raiding party on some schlep with Danish porn on his PC, and hope they don’t annoy the gangs shooting each other for control of the crack trade on the corner of Walk and Don’t Walk.

          Get a job you say? Where?? All the good factories are gone. Hell, all the mediocre factories are gone. “Shareholder value” is just code for screw the workers, blue coller, white coller, doesn’t matter. Same with IT. Worse, because now you have an educated workforce enemployed and living under the Town Street bridge. All who have been sold the “retool and retrain” bill of goods.

          Service economy, hell. While the near term shows an increase in the number of people who will need service, there will be a larger increase in those who don’t give a damn any more, and quit buying anything.

          The coming economy in the US will make the depression of the 30’s combined with Pol Pot’s Cambodia look like the good ol’ days.

        • #3074967

          Finally someone old enough to remember

          by it survivor ·

          In reply to Tony’s Rose Colored Glasses

          I just wanted to say that I am finally glad to see a posting of someone who (appears) to be old enough to remember. Most of these posting seem to be from the 20-30 something crowd who hasnt been initiated by Big brother yet. Just wait all you who spit on unions and think that the free market is the next comming of Christ. Youf get a a chance to see first hand when the free market chews you up and craps you out.

        • #3102476

          IT is a Trade

          by p_piluk ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          My father is a union plumber and I have always been astounded at how similar my job is to his. IT basically is the first White-collar trade. We should set it up like any other aprentiship, including organizing…

        • #3102473

          Please flesh that out

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to IT is a Trade

          How is your job like his?

        • #3103214

          White Collar Trade

          by p_piluk ·

          In reply to Please flesh that out

          Aside from Programming, which I have done plenty of it, most IT work is very similar to the trades. It is very difficult for me to explain but if you have spent any time around tradespeople and compaired their stories to those of two IT people you will see my point. We have far more in common with them than we do with an Electrical Engineer. Saying that, setting IT up as a trade would provide a standard method for ensuring the high quality of IT in North America. My union plumber father is constantly upgrading his skills as technology changes in his field…at a better rate than many of my friends in IT. I consider myself a tradesman and am proud of it!

        • #3103207

          Not for me

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to White Collar Trade

          I don’t consider it a trade. Not what I have every done. (I worked my way up, too.)

          So, unless you are able to provide more depth, I’ll respectfully disagree.

        • #3102442

          Great idea!

          by peter.l.scalzi ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          Yes. Let’s unionize.

          Let’s do for the IT industry what unionization has done for the US manufacturing sector. After all, China needs more jobs.

        • #3102771

          to what end?

          by heml0ck ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          well said tony…
          Having worked for unions before there are pros and cons.
          The main reason I agree that unionizing is a good idea is to protect us from exploitation. All too often, employers are demanding 50+ hrs /wk while offering no further compensation. That is a violation of most labour laws in NA, and needs to be addressed.
          As to the money, well I believe if you’re good enough, you’ll never want for work.

        • #3101722

          Truer words were never spoken.

          by eureeky ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          If in doubt – read about it here:
          http://www.washtech.org/

          Enjoy the day…

        • #3088163

          union blues

          by paolo2k6 ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          Firstly check to see if your union would gain any lawful recognition and isnt covered by some office & general workers union or the telecomms unions like here in the UK. Two toothless tigers if there ever was such a thing!

        • #3087740

          Union or not..

          by doug m. ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          we no longer have any job security. I worked at a union job at one of the largest telecom companies in the country. Guess what, I and about 125,000 of my colleagues were still laid off. And the union had no qualms about taking their dues out of my severance checks. Unions have given us some good things over the years, 40 hr. weeks, decent benefits, but some of them have gotten downright greedy, like the steelworkers and autoworkers unions. Not to mention the teachers unions. But unions are not always the answer to everything.

        • #3090260

          To What End: Redux

          by codebubba ·

          In reply to To what end: redux

          (I’ve been in the business since ’86 …)

          Yeah … I’ve been in it since ’78 and there’s some credence in what you say though I don’t agree with all of it. In my case I’ve found that I’ve always been able to find work. I’ve had very few periods of unemployment myself. Back in 1991 I was laid off during the recession. At that time I had a job offer in-hand but decided to make a go of it on my own developing custom software. Had a great time for 4 years. Lost my shirt at the end of it but had no problem re-entering the market.

          Yeah … job hunting can be tough, but my personal opinion on the matter is that if you focus on being very good at what you do and you demonstrate the willingess to PERFORM that you will seldom have real trouble finding something to do.

          As for this Unionizing Idea … I simply don’t agree with it. Want to completely ruin the industry? Let’s send the REST of the work offshore by unionizing. Unions had their place back in the 1920’s – but now all they do is burden business with inflated expense and lazy workers.

          -CB

        • #3132600

          what union(s)?

          by tomaaa19 ·

          In reply to To what end?

          T be effective a union must cover a large number of workers.

          I cannot see this happening in IT unless you get a number of very large number of shops organizing at the same time.

          At this time the attitudes of potential members is too divided for large scale unionizing to happen

          Also concerns about striking, dues etc will depend on the particular union and who actively participates in the running of your local……get involved or be prepared to be bossed around by another level.

          Regards

        • #3101943

          Teamsters

          by pokyokie ·

          In reply to what union(s)?

          would be best choice.

        • #3102978

          CWA is handling the tech sector

          by bndplus2 ·

          In reply to what union(s)?

          Unfortunately.

          CWA is the same union that handles Verizon and many of the telcos.

          Although at one point the telcos workforce may have been considered “tech”, I think that’s much less true these days (or, should I say, we’re “more” tech).

          I went to a CWA meeting once, and all I heard was whining and moaning about doing much of ANYTHING without getting compensated.

          As much as I hate to admit it, a union would stop a lot of us from doing our jobs effectively. If there’s a problem and Joe Blow isn’t around, we all step in to figure out the problem. In a union shop that could prove far less likely.

          I’m tired of 60 hour workweeks without additional compensation, too. And believe me I think we have a diluted workforce because of the Cert-Monkeys out there. I think employers DEPEND on their ability to have us do more work than we rightfully should, taking advantage of most of our “can-do” attitudes. Yet when we get raises, we compete for the same percentage pool as the non-exempt workforce. What motivation is THAT?

          Is anyone aware that most of us (admins, at least) should probably NOT be exempt from overtime? The rules are pretty clear… Look into it. Unless you’re making at LEAST 50 some odd K per year, or if you are supervising 2 people, you probably should be paid overtime… In California I think it’s 100K per year to be exempt!

          Do we need a union? I think it couldn’t hurt, but it’d have to be a good one, designed by US, with OUR guidelines. Given the choice of union or no union, if it was the CWA, I’d rather break rocks for a living.

          *shudder*

        • #3103362

          Overtime exempt

          by chuck ·

          In reply to CWA is handling the tech sector

          I researched the laws and it was clear to me that I am (and most IT people) are not exempt from overtime pay. However like any other law they are written to be interpreted by lawyers, It is not so black and white.

          I brought this up with my superiors along with all supporting documentation and they swept it under the rug and told me their lawyers said that we are exempt. Complete BS, I?m a Network Engineer making less than 45K, 5 years experience, it is ridiculous. What am I going to do? get a lawyer and sue my company who is gracious enough to employ me, but cant quite afford to pay the wages? Small company, good people, but uncompensated overtime is what gets me the most. I will continue to go above and beyond to complete the tasks, but sure would be nice to be compensated for it.

          You say find another job, but its tough, I apply to 40+ positions a year that I qualify for, I get maybe 5 interviews/testings a year each competing with 50+ other additional applicants/interviewees. I feel I do well in the interviews but I never get that call. A lot of competition out there, its a tough market, I?m not sure if unionizing will help. If we do unionize we have to take a different approach than traditional unions.

        • #3103231

          Check your state dept of labor

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Overtime exempt

          Call them, explain your situation. They may clarify things for you, and you won’t have to pay for a lawyer.

        • #3087657

          Check the laws again

          by klfarrell ·

          In reply to Overtime exempt

          http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/whd/fairpay/fs17c_administrative.htm

          I know we do not want to admit it, but as IT professionals we fit the definition of administrative staff.

          The requirements are:
          The employee must be compensated on a salary or fee basis (as defined in the regulations) at a rate not less than $455 per week;
          The employee?s primary duty must be the performance of office or non-manual work directly related to the management or general business operations of the employer or the employer?s customers; and
          The employee?s primary duty includes the exercise of discretion and independent judgment with respect to matters of significance.

        • #3087556

          States, too

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Check the laws again

          Each state also has its own versions of that.

        • #3132499

          SAP Consultants Unite!!!!!

          by rw17 ·

          In reply to To what end?

          So, you think that consulting is where the money is…? Not anymore! Not unless you are an independant!
          I’m a Canadian working for a large SAP consulting firm. I have 9 years of SAP experience and still make far less than $100K Canadian per year!
          There is no training in SAP (thus, no one ever seems to get certified in it anymore) offered by my company – they tell you there is but then they say “You can’t get training when between clients and when you are on a client there is no time for you to get training!”.
          There is no pension offered!
          Bonuses are tied to world-wide sales and max out at less than $4K per year… not even worth working for!
          Overtime is not paid until you pass 48 hours per week.
          I was billable 155% per week last year… that’s 62 hours per week… not including 10 hours of unpaid travel per week and administration hours unpaid (time reports, etc).
          3 weeks vacation! (IF you are allowed to go!)
          Stress, stress, STRESS!!!!!
          I was on the road 100%
          I was pressured to cross the border for work illegally – without a Trade Nafta Visa.
          It is expected to work early, work through lunch, and work later than my client to show them my “good work ethic”.
          AND MORE!!!!

          I think that SAP consultants should unionize!!! We get billed out at some rediculous rate which we receive less than 15% of! We aren’t trained anymore! The turnover rate at my company is 100% in less than 3 years at the consultant level! Burnout is a huge factor! Travel is rediculous!
          I got into the consulting to create a nest-egg… there is no way I would have sacrificed so much for so little… I have no life outside of work and all work and no play has made me a depressed man in my 30’s!

          I hate unions! But, in cases of slave labour, I understand the need for unions!

        • #3132486

          In your case

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to SAP Consultants Unite!!!!!

          If the company is doing nothing illegal, then you chose to work there, no one is forcing you to.

          If they are doing things illegally, then you have a duty and an obligation to report it. Only then should you expect to be compensated in the correct manner.

          Would unionizing stop that? As corrupt as your employer sounds, I doubt it. They’d likely own the union leaders anyway…

        • #3102029

          Naive

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to In your case

          OK.
          Scenario 1
          EACH person should sue their employer privately with own private money against a corporation with own lawyers and a much bigger wallet. Even being able to subtract lawyer expenses. Or sacking the employee if it looks like they’re losing.

          Scenario 2
          The employee contacts his/her union and the UNION – the sum of all employees nationwide, take up the battle, hiring legal advise ad needed and acting with the full power of the entire union. With the threat of a strike or blocade behind them.

          Do you really believe scenario 1 is the best?

        • #3102026

          Likewise

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Naive

          Imagine a small shop having to hire a union guy, and not being able to fire him. It goes both ways.

          But now we have labor laws. So if law suits are your thing, any company up against the federal government… which do you think is bigger and has more power?

          I’m not naive. I just don’t like unions for IT.

        • #3102006

          Naive perhaps not

          by flowahpla ·

          In reply to Likewise

          I have to chuckle at anyone who thinks that labor laws alone are going to protect them, or that governments even care.
          Just ask a temp. They are predominant way to get around labor laws.

        • #3101985

          Quite right

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Likewise

          My wife is a temp at a place for about 7 years. She makes about a third more than the average worker there…

          That’s just a headcount issue. Hiring a temp is a different type of accounting cost, so it actually works out more in the company’s, and our, favor.

          Win win for us both.

          Naive not, indeed.

        • #3102008

          Typical management response

          by flowahpla ·

          In reply to In your case

          It is statements like that, that strengthen the need for unions.
          The employers know that there are dozens of individuals “on the street” that are capable of doing the same job I do.
          By denying them, you open yourself up to being let go in a “creative manner”

        • #3101979

          At the moment

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Typical management response

          I feel like I could get another job almost anywhere. I might or might not be able to make as much money. But that also depends on the industry, teh location, and how good a fit my skills are to their needs.

          I don’t think a union would help me find another job. I think that a union ould hire less than qualified people to fill spots, just to fill spots (whether needed for the operation of the firm or not).

        • #3102001

          If you don’t like the lifestyle…..

          by matthew.procter ·

          In reply to SAP Consultants Unite!!!!!

          Of course the one option everyone has missed is MOVING. If you don’t like where you are, move. Its simple. I know that Australia is crying out for SAP skills, as well as anyone who knows which end of a mouse goes where.

          New Zealand has some similar trends too, with about a third of our IT team being imports from the UK.

          Wages may be less, but the cost of living is too. And ther lifestyle is much better.

          IT already gets a bad rap becuase of bugs, viruses and idiots who think they know what they are doing; do we really want to add “stevador’ also?

          After 8 years I get ~NZ$25 per hour. And its moer than enough.

        • #3102604

          Moving versus Unions

          by rw17 ·

          In reply to If you don’t like the lifestyle…..

          I hear you Mathew… moving is a very serious consideration. However, if someone moved every time that they desired their situation to change, what would ever be accomplished? Surely there would be no automobiles, trains, planes, phones, etc!
          $25 / hour is not great if you are an SAP consultant… but if the cost of living is low, then it’s all relative.
          I suggest Unions for my, and my co-workers situation. In North Amjerica, it would appear that we have become slave labourers… and Canadians are even more of a victim of this for American companies because of our perceived inexpense. Canada may be a cheap cost of living generally, but Toronto and Vancouver are NOT!
          The issue is: I want to work with SAP like I have for the past 9 years… I just can’t do it much longer at 70 hours per week (much unpaid) with hardly any vacation, stress of an unbelievable nature, and the like.
          When you work for a major consulting company like I do, and the average life of consultants there is 32 months, something is obviously brutally wrong! If the company won’t remedy it, then the employees should!

        • #3102582

          Check your labor laws

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Moving versus Unions

          I’ll bet you can’t be forced to work that many hours without being compensated. Well, I won’t bet much, but you really should look into it.

        • #3102493

          Hours Breakdown

          by rw17 ·

          In reply to Check your labor laws

          …. well…. from 40 – 48 is unpaid OT hours… then, the 10 – 12 hours of travel is unpaid per week… then, the administrative hours are unpaid as there is no billcode and is “expected” by the company…
          Hence… unpaid hours…

        • #3102643

          Accomplish?

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to To what end?

          It would create a safe haven for the mediocre 🙂

        • #3100502

          brother, you hit the nail right on the head…

          by sctang73 ·

          In reply to To what end?

          But I must say I can not help but synpathize w/ the author of the original post. Too many wannabe’s out there in a world that does not give the IT world enough respect. We really should have some sort of way to properly “license” technicians out there… turn it into a “practice” of sorts, like a lawyer or a doctor. Certifications can & do help, but certs alone are never enough.

      • #3102070

        Iowa?

        by dnellis74 ·

        In reply to Iowa Salaries

        Boise is in IDAHO. IT people with such a poor understanding of basic geography shouldn’t be giving relocation advice.

        • #3102671

          Opps

          by bfilmfan ·

          In reply to Iowa?

          Thanks for pointing out that I misread the city and increased the size of Iowas to include North and South Dakota, Montana and Wyoming as part of the state.

          That being said, my advice still stands. The salaries in Idaho aren’t great since companies like HP have down-sized a great deal to overseas locations.

    • #3252346

      You think $12/hr is bad?

      by cactus pete ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Go ahead, unionize, then see you get $16/hr and pay 25% of that to your union dues… Then you have to strike, because someone told you to. At which time you’re not working. Oh, that person demands you get paid more per hour, so the dues also rise…

      How about you don’t take that job for $12/hr because it doesn’t pay what you think you’re worth? That’s what we call a free market. Supply and demand work it out…

      What can a union do for you (other than wages related) in the IT field? If it’s just wages you’re wanting, then find something that pays more.

      Do what you love. Work hard at it. The money will follow.

      • #3252748

        Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

        by questor1 ·

        In reply to You think $12/hr is bad?

        The real reason Unions get a start in companies with employees is that workers feel they are being unfairly treated by that company. I have no idea where you get a 25% cut in pay that goes to union membership. You’re unsubstantiated threat of 25% union membership fees only amounts to fear and loathing of Unions which is unfair.

        I view Unions as a form of insurance for employees… a standardized set of rules, work hours, and compensation are negotiated by the Union with the company to arrive at a fair wage and working conditions for the employee-union member.

        Your idea of a free market allows these jobs to be abruptly taken away to outsourcing companies (often overseas) with lower wages. There is no competitive advantage other than a temporary reduction in wages for outsourcing. These abrupt changes cause absolute havoc with families when IT is outsourced, I have experienced it several times. Perhaps you want to move overseas for an IT job in your twisted view of “free market”, I prefer to work in the USA where real value is created from union IT jobs.

        The real advantage of Unions is fair treatment of union members. If a company unfairly treats a union member, they are permitted by the Union to voice they complaint for a negotiated agreement. Most companies do not permit this for employees without union membership.

        Unions foster social stability where “free market” IT outsourcing causes chaos.

        • #3252737

          Unions have served their purpose

          by blead3 ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          In a manufacturing economy, where work was tied to capital and equipment, unions allowed workers to bargain for better conditions/pay/etc.

          In a knowledge economy, where work is tied to ideas and the Internet can transmit those ideas across the world, unions are a relic that would only be worked around by the corporation (whatever the size). Read Thomas Friedman’s “The World is Flat.” The Internet has changed everything, especially for knowledge workers. Trying to put up barriers and organizing unions to combat it would be like building a sand castle wall to keep away the tide-all the effort would quickly wash away.

          Those economies that put up fewer barriers to trade (and outsourcing) in the end become stronger because they grow more jobs and become more diverse. Witness the difference between the US, the EU, and Japan. The US economy has grown at a healthier rate in the past 10 years than the EU and Japan, where trade barriers are high. Millions of jobs were added in both the Bush/Clinton administrations because US trade barriers are relatively low (but still here) compared to the other two. These new jobs weren’t just low end (i.e. burger-flipping), but were a combination of low, medium, and high end work. Now the employment rate is below 5% (and shrinking), you’ll see salaries rise in order to fulfill the classic supply/demand tension that always exists.

          Do unions foster social stability when teacher’s unions fight ANY education reform to link pay for performance?

          Do unions foster social stability when police unions draw a ‘blue wall of silence’ when it comes to rogue cops?

          Do unions foster social stability when GM and Ford have to lay off thousands because their workforce makes them uncompetitive w.r.t. foreign auto makers?

          Union membership has shrunk as a % of the total workforce in the US economy, and we’re stronger for it.

        • #3252714

          Unions continue to serve theit purpose

          by dougprechtl ·

          In reply to Unions have served their purpose

          I would have to point out that the purpose of a union is to fight for better wages and benifits for its members and that there is a highly sucessful model for this based on a knowlege commodity rather than labor: The American Medical Association. The while not a union per se, has been the most sucessfull union that I believe has ever existed. It controls the number of new members by controlling the number of doctors that are graduated, lobbies on behalf of the medical profession to prevent regulation by the government, and prevents forign doctors from practicing without going through AMA controlled redidencies. Further, fees are set through AMA publications that provide average fees per procedure.

          This model can be utilized by any knowlege based profession including IT. It would require a tremendous organization, and years to implement but it would work.

          Preaching free market is a disservice to the profession. We do not want a free market, and no business wants a free market. You want a market that you control, and until we all realize this we will continue to work for $12/hour while Doctors and Lawyers make $200-$600/hr.

        • #3132794

          Not quite

          by dougl4 ·

          In reply to Unions continue to serve theit purpose

          Only a very small percentage of doctors and lawyers make what you suggest, and then not for every hour of the work day, so their annual comp. is much less than you suggest. I know a number of successful examples of each profession, and their numbers were never that big. Additionally, most doctor salaries have been shrinking significantly over the past decade, and lawyers are becoming a dime a dozen.

          The beauty of our US labor market, is that if you are unsatisfied with anything, you can go somewhere else. I happen to be working on a project in the heart of auto country. Around me, I see very healthy IT wages being paid, and thousands of auto union workers in absolute fear for their work and finanical future.

        • #3132725

          Stand By the Numbers

          by dougprechtl ·

          In reply to Not quite

          Based on working for 2 doctors practices, these are conservative numbers for my area (NY Metro). I should not have compared it the IT guy’s hourly rate of $12/hr from the midwest. A guy here should expect about $30 an hour on salary for the same position. My point is that the AMA and ABA provide “Guidelines” for these fees, and the Doctors and Lawyers stick to them. In this area, a low end lawyer is $150 per hour. Call any lawyer and none go lower. Doctor’s office visits are a minimum of $85. None go lower.

          We would all do well to do the same.

        • #3132673

          Small Sample Size

          by cptnemo2 ·

          In reply to Stand By the Numbers

          A sample size of 2 practices is simply insufficient to make the conclusion you have, especially when talking about such an inflated area as NYC.

          The reality of Union activity is present for all to see…in education, unions have ‘dumbed down’ America so that excellent teachers are often forced out to keep ‘union’ teachers from looking bad (read Linda Chavez’s book…that is Cesar Chavez’s daughter and co-founder of the United Farms Worker’s Union). Unions are now either big business or organized crime rackets. But don’t believe me…read about Jimmy Hoffa…

        • #3132548

          Rates

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Stand By the Numbers

          In NYC, none go lower because they can’t.

          Does anyone there hire “LAN techs” for under a certain rate?

          Also, remember what your’e comparing. You’re saying an in-house LAN tech should make certain wages. Would you pay more or less than that number for someone who is a consultant?

          Basically, attorneys and doctors are consultants. They are specialist who you need every once in a while. If you needed one constantly, you would try to negotiate a decent rate for 2000 hours a year.

          Now this also presents a problem. Most in-house attorneys are at the high level. So it’s like hiring a CIO, then outsourcing all of the other work, and then only when you need it.

        • #3102443

          Not a valid comparison.

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Stand By the Numbers

          How many IT technicians have a staff (and have to pay them out of their wages)?

        • #3085519

          AMA may sets fees but not disbursements

          by dilbert9 ·

          In reply to Stand By the Numbers

          The AMA may set recommended fee’s but they don’t have an influence on what the doctor actually gets paid. His actual payment is set by his contract with the insurer which sets his rate at a small percentage over what the govenment pays for that procedure under Medicare. The doctor can bill the insurance company any amount he wishes but he will have to write off the difference between what the insurance company pays plus the copay and deductible paid by the patient. The only thing he accomplishes by raising his fees far above the rate paid by insurance companies is to artifically inflate his AR on his books.

          Doctors are not really hurting but their income has dropped compared with the inflation rate over the past 20 years while the CE and malpractice insurance premiums have increased dramatically.

        • #3132557

          Doctors and lawyers

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Unions continue to serve theit purpose

          So you’re saying it’s supply and demand. The AMA holds back the number of doctors, thereby increasing each doctor’s wages.

          That’s terrible. If such a scheme could be proved in court, I’d have them broken up! Letting people die or even just suffer a bit more so your members can make more money is horrendous.

          And I believe the government would find fault with that, as it would be running up bills they have to pay.

          Lawyers negotiate their rates with their clients up front. Not all make a ton of money (but most do make at least $60 an hour based on 40 hour weeks).

          And believe me, lawyers in Boise don’t make as much as lawyers in NYC.

          But your model doesn’t fit all. IT support can easily be managed from anywhere in the world. It’s somewhat more difficult to have a surgeon perform on you from the next room, let alone anywhere else. Lawyers need to be present for most of their procedings as well.

        • #3102038

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by pickleman ·

          In reply to Doctors and lawyers

          > But your model doesn’t fit all. IT support can
          > easily be managed from anywhere in the world.

          No, actually it can’t be.
          Stop talking shit. It just makes you look more retarded than you actually are.

          > It’s somewhat more difficult to have a surgeon
          > perform on you from the next room, let alone
          > anywhere else.

          And it’s equally as difficult for someone in India to fix your database server problems when the machine that holds the data won’t even power up. That’s just one example. I have a thousand others I can give you where the person doing the work has to be on-site.

          > Lawyers need to be present for most of their
          > procedings as well

          I’m guessing (based on your naive statements) that you seem to believe that “I.T. support” is nothing more than working in a call center, answering the phones from people wanting to know why their rebate checks haven’t arrived yet. If that’s your view of I.T., then yes, that type of work can certainly be done from someone in India.

          But for those of us that understand what real I.T. means, we’re not the least bit worried about outsourcing because we perform REAL work that our clients can’t possibly outsource no matter how much they may want to.

        • #3102030

          You should watch the name calling – I have

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          I’m not retarded. I’m not naive.

          In fact, I’m anti-outsourcing. But the argument to unionize to prevent that fails.

          Yes, the datacenter can be managed remotely. Should it be needed, a tech can be dispatched to the site to provide hands on support.

          Get this, I manage office sites in Chicago, Washington DC, NYC, Albany, and Milwaukee. Along with some people having VPN access from anywhere. How can I do this if you can’t provide remote support? I have support people in DC, but only because the numbers dictate it. I don’t need people in the other offices (at this time) so I don’t put them there.

          I build my systems to withstand most outages, and if I need someone to physcially be there, we talk someon through it, I go, someone else goes, or we pay for someone to show up. (That is, of course, if the vendor support isn’t applicable.)

          Now, I can run most of my remote offices from one centralized location, and I’m not talking about being a call center.

          Yes, there are thousands of reasons someone may need to be at a kayboard or hold a screwdriver in their hands right there… But how many days can’t you work from home over a high speed connection?

          Great, if you need to be in front of the machine, physically, ever moment of every day, then that’s your situation. I don’t need to be on every server every day. I don’t even need to be at the users’ desks to fix most of their issues.

          So compare apples to apples. I’m sticking to the argument, and you’re calling names and providing narrow cicrumstances when generalizations don’t fit.

          Stick to it or move on, please.

        • #3101805

          You are not as safe as you think

          by e_196 ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          >But for those of us that understand what real I.T. means, we’re not the least bit worried about outsourcing because we perform REAL work that our clients can’t possibly outsource no matter how much they may want to.

          You should be worried if you don’t know the difference between outsourcing and offshoring.

        • #3089962

          But your model doesn’t fit …

          by codebubba ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          >> But for those of us that understand what real I.T. means, we’re not the least bit worried about outsourcing because we perform REAL work that our clients can’t possibly outsource no matter how much they may want to. << That's very well put. I think you hit the nail on the head there, especially to those who are worried bout outsourcing. The majority of the jobs that get outsourced are non-specialist jobs (IMHO). In my case, for example, I am the sole individual in our organization that completely understands the business-rules logic of our product. Can you "outsource" my knowledge? No way Jose'. Oh sure ... in a few years you might be able to get another developer trained to replace my knowledge but what do you do in the meantime? Am I worried about being "outsourced"? No way. We tried to outsource the development of a key section of our application and it was a DISASTER. We had to rewrite most of it because the individuals in the Indian firm did not have the core knowledge of our product. (They were lousy coders to boot - but that's a different story). This whole idea of "Unionization" of the IT field is driven (I believe) by individuals who either have not, or won't specialize and WORK to become valuable to a specific company or marketplace. If you just want to be a "code weevil" (I.E. ditch-digger) and don't really learn the business you are working in, then you're likely to be outsourced. Anyone (I mean, relatively speaking) can just write code (dig holes). You have to learn to figure out WHY you're digging the hole and learn how to dig said hole better than your competition. -CB

        • #3085513

          Find a good small company to work for-

          by dilbert9 ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          And it’s equally as difficult for someone in India to fix your database server problems when the machine that holds the data won’t even power up. That’s just one example. I have a thousand others I can give you where the person doing the work has to be on-site.

          I totally agree. As a IT “generalist” with a small medical software company, around 60% of my calls can be handles with a phone call or a Logmein Rescue session but there ate those 40% that require hands on access. My advice is to find a small, growing comany that needs your skills and you will find that not only the pay rate will exceed what the more structured scales in a larger operation will pay but you will have more freedom and job satisfaction than being a faceless droid in a huge company. The one drawback of a smaller operation is fewer benefits like health insurance or 401K contributions but less stress and more job satisfaction makes it worth the trade off.

          I retired in my 40’s from a trade (electrical and control technician) with a strong union tradition because I was tired of all the union BS. Too many deadwood “workers” whose primary job duty was hiding until lunch or time to go home, depending on those of us who actually enjoyed working to carry their sorry a**. Since I was much “too old” by most IT standards I decided to stick to the small mom and pop companies. Not only did I weather the dot-bomb bust but I prospered through it. I just passed my tenth year in my current position.

        • #3102097

          You’re not comparing apples to apples

          by blueknight ·

          In reply to Unions continue to serve theit purpose

          The AMA is not a union as you suggest, but an organization “to promote the art and science of medicine and the betterment of public health.” There’s a big difference there.

          Likewise for the ABA whose mission statement says it “is to be the national representative of the legal profession, serving the public and the profession by promoting justice, professional excellence and respect for the law.” The “national representative of the legal profession” part sounds kind of [i]unionish[/i] but when you read their goals, there is nothing union about it.

          We don’t need to unionize IT. What we need is for those who work in IT to become more intelligent with respect to their rights as workers and have the [i]brass[/i] to stand up for those rights. Overtime is NOT mandatory, and if you work overtime, you must be compensated for it. If you’re going without lunch, you’re screwing yourself. Has your employer called you a manager to avoid paying you overtime? Guess what — if you don’t manage anybody, you’re not a manager and you must be paid for the overtime. If your local labor laws aren’t strong enough, then you need to contact your legislators and push them to make the laws tougher. You still have federal labor laws behind you so do your part to see they are observed by your employer.

          One thing you overlooked in your comparison to doctors is that doctors are exposed to malpractice lawsuits, thus they command a higher price to offset the cost of malpractice insurance.

          Those who promote the idea of unionizing IT scare me. It’s like promoting offshoring and outsourcing. You [u]know[/u] what happens to your job then. You’re telling them “Hey, over here… send my job to India.” Not me!

          I’ve worked several places that were “closed shops” during my 39+ years in IT and the unions don’t do a darn thing for employees except take their dues. Sure they make a lot of promises when the shop wants to unionize, but once they’re in you don’t make any more money… you get a “step” increase setup and COLAs and once in a great while they may step in to save some turkey’s job if he did something stupid and got into trouble. Once the luster wears off, you almost literally can never get the union out… they keep sucking up your dues and the union bosses get rich.

          If you’re into unions so much why not become an electrician or a plummer… or even a truck driver.

        • #3102013

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to You’re not comparing apples to apples

          Those who promote the idea of unionizing IT scare me. It’s like promoting offshoring and outsourcing. You know what happens to your job then. You’re telling them “Hey, over here… send my job to India.” Not me!

          If your afraid of what happens to your job if you unionize – then you need to unionize.

          My union got me a full years salary in compensation. My boss developed a psychological illnes and turned the workspace into a mental battlefield – and sacked me because I was the ONLY one daring to tell him he had problems and should seek counselling.

          I saw how many binders of papers were written, and the countless number meetings that were held to solve this. I would NEVER had the power, money or energy to drive that through to a succesful end myself.

          If you think you’re more worth than a truck driver, plummer or electrician, I think you have more than a problem with more than your social attitude. You might be a bit surprised if you looked up just how much a plumber actually makes – in normal working hours.

          I have been an IT manager for 20 years, worked in the business for as long as you. I respect anybody working, we are all needed to keep society running.

        • #3103100

          Maybe look at it this way

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          Suppose you are the best. You have honed your skills to razor sharpness and work with rapid efficiency. Not to mention the fact that you haven’t been off on sickleave in over 20 years.

          So you go to your boss and asked to be compensated for your higher work output and quality,

          More than likely your boss says: “Sorry, if I give you a raise, the union will demand it for everyone in the same job classification.”

          So it’s easy to understand the view that unionization might discourage innovation and efficiency, and promote mediocrity (Why innovate if you’re not going to gain from it? Why work any harder than you absolutely have to?).

          If you’re among the best at what you do, you should be pissed at any unionization attempts, because what they get for your “buddies”, they’ll be taking away from you!

        • #3102568

          Closed Shop

          by raintree ·

          In reply to You’re not comparing apples to apples

          I worked in a department store in the late 60s that was a closed shop… for a short time. I had just been discharged from the military, this was the first job. When they had their charity drive they wanted 100% participation. The charity they were pushing was one I didn’t go along with because their “management expenses” were ridiculously high. I tore up the participation card and threw it away. The company withheld my paycheck and would not give it to me until I responded. Now, I believe that is illegal (even then) from a federal or state perspective. It should certainly have not been tolerated by the union. I was not the only person this happened to. I don’t see that the union was any help there. I worked there for a few months until I had a chance at a job where they actually respected their employees. It was a non-union shop, of course.

        • #3102045

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by pickleman ·

          In reply to Unions continue to serve theit purpose

          > We do not want a free market, and no business
          > wants a free market. You want a market that you
          > control, and until we all realize this we will
          > continue to work for $12/hour while Doctors and
          > Lawyers make $200-$600/hr.

          Utter nonsense.
          The people who are charging $12/hour are doing so because that’s what they’re worth. The lawyers charging $600 are doing so, because that’s what they’re worth.

          If you have serious legal problems, are you going to head over to Bill & Bob’s Legal Service for $50/hour, or are you going to hire someone with an established reputation for winning cases? If you want Bill & Bob, go for it, and see where that gets you. If you want to win your case, you’ll be heading over to the high-priced lawyers you’ve seen on TV who make the nightly news.

          The I.T. sector is no different. If a company wants to bring in some kid for $12/hour to solve their problems, I just sit back and laugh and wait until they call me after several days of realizing they’re getting nowhere. It’s not the first time I’ve seen it. I’m self-employed, and I definitely DON’T charge $12/hour. With my established clients, they’ve learned not even to waste time bothering to call someone else. But my new clients, they always do something stupid during the first few months that I’m with them. They’ll call me up to describe a problem they’re having…at which point I’ll either tell them on the phone exactly what it will cost, or I’ll have to come in to look at the problem and then tell them afterwards. Sometimes, there’s always that know-it-all office manager who moans and whines and tells me that he thinks he can bring in someone for $15/hour to do the job. My immediate reaction is always the same – I look him right in the eyes, I smile, and I say “Be my guest. You have my number..”

          In every such case, I have always proven to each and every one of my clients that the I.T. business is just like any other business or service or product — YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

          Unions in I.T.?
          ROFL

        • #3272424

          Lawyers are the worst …

          by too old for it ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          I’m helping a data center / disaster recovery center get going. And a lawyer I know, while may be not needing something so grand certainly needs something better than his server sitting in the middle of a loft-space office.

          First words out of his mouth were: “Good idea, but I need a discount.”

          Well, there is s discount schedule after the first piece of rack-mounted equipment. And there is a further discount if you lease an entire rack. Anything over 3 racks and we can get the boys in accounting to sharpen up their pencil.

          But there is not nor will there be a discount simply because the only thing you know how to do is spout off “I need a discount” before even seeing if the idea of putting a rack server offsite to back up your in house server makes sense.

          Back when I still did independent break/fix for people, I had a universal answer for “Can you sharpen up your pencil, and get me a better price?” I said “No.” Then I closed my portfolio, and left. Funny, about 50% of the time after the guy with the sharp pencil balled up the works, I’d get a call back, and it would cost more than if I had been fired the first time. The usually whimpered, but they always paid.

          I pretty much defer lawyers elsewhere, tho some of my better competitors no longer take lawyers either. One firm was installing a new PC, and the lawyer kept bumping into the tech with his electric wheelchair, finally running up on the guy?s foot, sending him to the hospital. Of course, he wanted a discount, because the work was not completed to his satisfaction.

        • #3101925

          Free Market or Not?

          by mot_esach ·

          In reply to Unions continue to serve theit purpose

          If you want a controlled market – try China. They have a very well controlled market.

          Not one I would want to be in – but tightly controlled. Good luck on “asking” for a wage increase.

        • #3101801

          which is which

          by bms ·

          In reply to Unions continue to serve theit purpose

          Unions are for laborors and professional associations are for professionals. What are you people. If you are professionals then start an association like other profesionals ie. doctors and lawyers but not teachers. Professionals set their own wages but collectively agree on minimum standards. They are self policing like AMA. If you want to organize then someone take the lead and begin the American Information Technology Association (AITA). not to be confused with Alabama association or the truckers association.

        • #3102445

          “Unions continue to serve theit purpose”

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Unions continue to serve theit purpose

          Yep…. fundraising for the DNC.

        • #3103019

          Well Said

          by decimumaximus ·

          In reply to Unions continue to serve theit purpose

          Well Said I agree Whole hearted!

          We are the Doctors and Lawyers of the IT world but with so many Spineless Cowards willing to take 12$ and hour and bitch about free trade BULL and how the auto industry suffers we’ll never make it.
          Comparing us to the auto industry is assanine comparing the IT feild to Doctors is so much more accurate and look what union’s have done for them !
          I dont know about you but when I deal with an end user I am a doctor, shrink, mechanic, engineer and even a maid! not to mention a Lawyer. If I got a dollar for every time I am asked legal advise “Mostly Software Licensing” I would’nt need to worry about wages !
          So Why should’nt we get paid like a doctor or lawyer? I have gone to school just as long. I have more pretty little certificates in my office then they do! I SAY WTF you cowards need to find another feild to go corrupt and those of us with a SACK need to ban together and fight for what is ours.

        • #3103228

          OK…

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Well Said

          Do you know economics? People pay what they are willing to pay for something.

          You will never make as much as the top heart transplant surgeon. Live with that fact.

          The $12/hr was for what? A small company with small needs? Did they just want an entry level guy? Maybe they didn’t want someone with all the certs and years in college.

          Maybe they just wanted someone worth $12/hr.

          What’s wrong with that?

        • #3103017

          Cowards!

          by decimumaximus ·

          In reply to Unions continue to serve theit purpose

          Ponder this
          Without doctors the world would be sick and there would be alot more death.

          Without I.T. the world would not function.< PERIOD ...Hmm Why don't we make more than Doctors? Cowards! Get a spine and stand up for yourselfs!

        • #3103395

          Get over yourself

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Cowards!

          Do you honestly think someone on a helpdesk or fixing PCs (both jobs I have done by the way) deserves more than a doctor, who by the way, has a Bachelors degree, 4 years of medical school, and 4 or so years of low paid apprenticehsip as a resident(where in some areas they may make as little as $10-15 an hour)?

          If you do, I hope you think better of it when you have a medical emergency. If they doctor seeing hasn’t done a lot more than take a 3 year degree and/or write the MCSE, I’d be very concerned.

          James

        • #3100535

          Doctor’s pay

          by decimumaximus ·

          In reply to Get over yourself

          Sure I Agree we ..”that is those of us that have actually put in the time and have the training, degrees <--TWO and certifications <-- OVER 40" Should get paid... But the reality of it is licensing would cure the pay issues doctors dont rely so much on union as much as the licensing .. require a license to practice and that'll cure the $12 hour BULL$

        • #3100493

          Why

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Get over yourself

          Why should I pay you $50/hr if all I want from you is $12/hr worth? I don’t care if you can solve the world hunger problem, if I need some cables run I’m not paying more than what it’s worth.

          If you won’t do the job for what I’m willing to pay, I’ll find someone who better fits.

          If you DO have two degrees and over 40 certs, and you’re unemployed, perhaps you won’t mind spending a few hours at $12/hr running cables for me.

          Your choice.

        • #3102200

          In fact dpetrak

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Get over yourself

          A few years back I was laid off, and I did some contracting work while looking for permanent work. One agency had got me a good interview but the job had been put on hold. They knew I had been contracting at $40 an hour – the market in our area was pretty soft.

          I asked them for an update and it wasn’t looking good. I aked them if they had anything else happening. They told me they had a short contract and needed people, but it probably wouldn’t pay enough – $25 an hour. I told them that if it paid more than unemployment and since I didn’t have anything else lined up, I would take it. They were happy, I was happy, I made new friends and contacts – it was a very positive experience.

          Always better to be working than sitting at home.

          James

        • #3103190

          But

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Cowards!

          what if I am superior in skills, efficiency, and even work ethic compared to most of my colleagues, and am compensated more because of it. After we unionize, the union will exert pressure on the employer to increase the wages of the other employees to match mine (after all, we all do the same thing). This will make it more difficult for me to negotiate better compensation as I further increase my skills.

          Not only that, the increase in others’ wages causes the employer to raise the cost of his product, which I happen to buy so it results in a decrease in my buying power, which effectly is a REDUCTION in my wages. An even further reduction occurs because I am to start paying Union Dues.

          So tell me, Mr. IT UNION YES, how does this benefit me?

        • #3100519

          Boohoo

          by decimumaximus ·

          In reply to But

          “”what if I am superior in skills, efficiency, and even work ethic compared to most of my colleagues, and am compensated more because of it.””

          Your probably not.. But lets think you are for now. How long do you think that will last? when your employer thinks he can get someone almost as good as you.. and alot less whiney for $12 an hour do you think he’s gonna keep you. NO WAY!
          unless you are that $12 hour guy…or is it $15 now? since your such a good boy! Fools like you are what a union wouldn’t want and that scares you… oh by the way most of my family is in some sort of union and each one has great benifits, Awesome retirement, long vacations and doesn’t have to worry about some snot nosed brat taking there job for 1/3 of what they get…
          YOUR SCARED I understand… you could always go to flipping burgers… Mickey D’s pays 60k to managers and I am sure that your superior skills will get you there… Good luck.. don’t let the door hit your……………

        • #3100488

          Scared?

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to But

          You’re making a lot of assumptions there.

          I have great pay, long vacations, more than enough benefits, etc. Why do I need a union? A union would just cost me money and be another layer of bureaucracy.

        • #3101108

          re: Your probably not..

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to But

          “How long do you think that will last?”

          As long as I continue to keep abreast of new methods and keep my skills sharp. If someone comes along and offers my employer more bang for the buck, more power to him. I certainly don’t want to be kept around simply because I’ve been around.

          “Fools like you are what a union wouldn’t want and that scares you…”

          The union doesn’t want me because I make the others look bad. I don’t catch the three-day flu (Friday, Monday, and Tuesday). The only thing scary about the union is that it forces employers to pay certain amounts to certain positions, regardless of how good the current holder of that position (ranging from outstanding to barely adequate). Because he has to pay the lazy ones as much as me, he can’t afford to pay me more, and because the lazy ones have more seniority than me, he can’t post a higher position lest the lazy ones bid on it.

          “oh by the way most of my family is in some sort of union and each one has great benifits, Awesome retirement, long vacations and doesn’t have to worry about some snot nosed brat taking there job for 1/3 of what they get…”

          That’s hilarious. I guess you should read my profile before comparing me to a snot-nosed brat. I’ve been working here for longer than the average poster here has been alive! and like I said, if some snot-nosed brat thinks he can beat me out of my job, he can just bring it!

          (added: Oh, and when you need a job done around you home, do you shop around for price and references, or do you just automatically accept the guy that’s been in business the longest? Why should your employer not be allowed to do that?)

          If you think the company is “giving you” benefits, you’re the fool. They don’t just pull benefits out of their ass. They come from money they [b]could[/b] be paying you, and/or money they could be saving the consumers of their product or service (at least some of which are likely to be union memgers) by lowering prices. It’s a shell game, and your family seems to have been suckered by it.

          Oh, here, in case you missed it.

          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-11181-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=190031&messageID=1959899

        • #3151870

          no one said….

          by heml0ck ·

          In reply to But

          membership was mandatory.
          If you are that good, you can continue with the consultant line.
          For me right now? Get the pointy headed managers in line, and quit abusing their staff.

        • #3103164

          B.S. And that not a college degree

          by mot_esach ·

          In reply to Cowards!

          This world functioned rather well without all of our durrent IT gadgets. Industry is so deperate to sell the gadgets that they do mix and match to try to attract sales.

          Every one has to have a gadget. Most can’t even use them correctly or to their fully capability.

          Get a life. If all of us IT folks dropped dead tomorrow, the world would still go on. 80% of the world lacks basic food, medicine or shelter and you think it will go away without you. Pooh!

          Many people in my state of Oregon can’t even afford simple health services. Face it. A lot of the world needs IT due to corporate infrastructure, but IT only makes it easier – it does not replace the human condition nor become a panacea to existance.

          IT is not the “God of All”.

          If you want a real understanding of the necessity for IT live in east Tiajuana for a week. Then go home and be damn glad you have one to go to.

        • #3272457

          nobody dies

          by scifiman ·

          In reply to Cowards!

          Because if my email server goes down for a week, nobody dies. Thus, most doctors make more than I do.

          Oh no! The CEO’s Blackberry isn’t working. Dear lord, he might have to actually use his telephone and actually speak to a person. Nobody died.

          Network crashed at store 87. Oh well, just send the JIT truck shipment across town anyway, and we do the paperwork later. More work, but nobody died.

        • #3132643

          I agree

          by spaltd ·

          In reply to Unions have served their purpose

          Unions can make people lazy and quality suffers.

        • #3101976

          Very true

          by flowahpla ·

          In reply to I agree

          This is true and I have seen it.
          Perhaps not in IT, but in the manufacturing sector.
          Some people wrap themselves in the blanket of union protection, and become complacent.
          The onus for them to perform, and their job depending on it is not there in the conventional sense.
          Seniority can also ply a role in that an individual who is the best fit for a position may not necessarily get the job, as someone else with senority who is “trainable” in that position will take it.
          As pros and cons go, this is definately just a couple of serious cons.

        • #3100676

          My favorite

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Very true

          is “The most senior employee who meets the minimum qualifications.”

        • #3132589

          Agreed

          by deaton ·

          In reply to Unions have served their purpose

          50+ years ago, there were little or no labor laws. That caused the union movement out of desperation. Now that we have labor laws that make the workplace safe and sane, the job is done.

          What we need to do is spread the ideas of labor laws like ours to other countries that don’t have them, like India. Humans are greedy and would like similar treatment. That would level the playing field.

        • #3132491

          Unions continue TO SERVE THE PEOPLE

          by questor1 ·

          In reply to Unions have served their purpose

          I read that you believe the USA should give away any and all trade secrets or proprietary information to foreign countries with lower labor costs. Prominent economists have stated that outsourcing jobs for lower wages are merely the temporary lowering of an opportunity cost and not a competitive innovation. Lowering IT wages or outsourcing does not make any company more innovative. Perhaps you should transfer to work in a foreign country where your ideas are more accepted than here.

          The real problem is that the business playing field is stacked against the American worker and Unions in both the USA and the foreign country… Corrupt governments here and abroad block the formation of Unions because they are often viewed as a poltical threat to that government. IT workers througout the world continue to be abused because they often are not allowed to organize unions.

          When IT is outsourced to foreign countries, particularly Asia, there are no “trade protections” to US citizen personal data like bank or financial records. The US Courts have no jurisdiction in Asia. This is why most companies are hesitant to outsource R&D to foreign countries – they are afraid their technology secrets will be stolen by competitors in foreign countries with no legal recourse. Outsourcing personal financial data service and management from banks and brokers in overseas markets is a bad accident just waiting to happen to US citizens. Unions create a stable work environment where there may be less incentive to cheat clients if their workers needs are already fully met.

          You claim the USA is doing well with a robust economy, but why are IT people not benefiting and why is the general public’s attitude so negative? American & IT workers do not feel they are getting their fair share of the American economic pie. Income levels of the rich have risen far higher than the median American family income that has declined $1700 over the past several years in buying power. IT wages have fallen in some segments in the USA up to 30% while the cost of living keeps going up. Perhaps this is why IT college enrollment has declined an estimated 35% in the past several years where IT is no longer considered viable by grdaduating college students. Why go to college when it does not have a positive impact on IT wages? Unions establish a negotiated and agreed set of rules between Union members and the company to make sure that workers are fairly treated on wages and hours.

          The United States used to set the standard that other countries looked to for leadership in human rights and benefits in the workplace. Sadly, this is no longer true when some foreign counties abuse their workers with slave wages and conditions to lower prices. IT workers are not benefiting when jobs are moved overseas and wages decline in the USA. Why has the USA government abandoned these basic protections in favor of lowering wages at any cost to the worker?

          More IT workers in the USA are getting sick or dying from work-related stress. The growth of the American economy trying to do more with less is killing american workers because more stress is thrust upon the American workforce. The USA is currently ranked 12th in the world among modern western countries for population longevity. We used to be ranked in the top three nations. Unions protect members from overwork abuse companies impose to supposedly be “competitive” in a race to the bottom.

          If you say that Unions are obsolete, just look around… the federal and state governments do not adequately protect the rights of workers in the USA. Unions help protect the rights of workers where the government has failed to do so. The current Congress has taken a “pro-business” attitude that is forcing US workers into lower wages in a race to the bottom of a economy solely based on services.

          We need to level the playing field for workers and businesses. I say that if counties based in foreign countries want to sell products in the USA, they should be forced to adhere to the same wage, benefit, and government regulations that countries in the USA have to follow. Companies that outsource operations to overseas markets should be held by the government to the same rules and regulations that companies within the USA follow. If you want to sell products in the USA, you have to play by USA rules.

        • #3103096

          I can’t believe that….

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Unions continue TO SERVE THE PEOPLE

          “there may be less incentive to cheat clients if their workers needs are already fully met”

          … you actually said that. What a kick in the gut to American workers.

          If American workers [b]were[/b] like that, they would deserve firing, not union protection!

        • #3272053

          Rubbish

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Unions continue TO SERVE THE PEOPLE

          US set the standards for human rights in the workplace, are you having a laugh? You’re slave labour compared to us commie europeans. Our employment costs are much higher than yours. In the netherlands for instance there is a statutary four month notice period and if you get laid off you get your average wage as welfare for the first six months. Now do you want to pay the necessary taxes to get those rights. No do you f***.

          I’ll go with a level playing field anytime you want, US standards would have to increase dramatically to get to where western europe is. That would make us more competive not you.

          A country that believes in the goals of free market capitalism, but wants to impose controls, tariffs, etc on others so it can compete. Hypocrite.

        • #3101872

          Unions weren’t GM & Ford’s problem…

          by spitfed ·

          In reply to Unions have served their purpose

          but lack of trade barriers to the US were. Once preferential access to US markets were offered to Japan and other ‘Tiger economies’ (in exchange for military bases with which to fight the cold war which the Pentagon insist on still fighting) imports flooded in, leading to a hollowing out of US manufacturing. No amount of unionisation would save US jobs.

          Read ‘Blowback’ by Chalmers Johnson for a fuller account rather than my crude summary.

          I’d like to know what sectors these new jobs (” a combination of low, medium, and high end work”) are in. Call-center work perhaps?

          Just like to add that unionisation would probably have a negative effect on my sector, Games software development, where start-up struggle to pay salaries, have insane deadlines to meet and are expected to meet most of the risks.

          My 2 euros worth.

        • #3272051

          Yiou can only afford trade barriers

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Unions weren’t GM & Ford’s problem…

          if your home market will support your economy, other wise those you raise them against will simply go tit for tat.
          My ?2 * 0.67s worth.

        • #3271963

          If I may summarize

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Yiou can only afford trade barriers

          Trade barriers violate the rights of “the market” — people — to decide for themselves what is in their self-interest. Most people, when their rights are violated, tend to retaliate. Unfortunately, the most intelligent and productive tend to be the most patient and tolerant, otherwise there would be much less dead weight in the gene pool.

        • #3271833

          Indeed

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to If I may summarize

          Trade barriers are stupid. They are a reaction to a global economic condition and simultaneously a denial that the economy is global.
          Theoretically, they could be a short term measure to spread out the social consequences of an ecomonic change, more usually they simply build up the pressure resulting in an economic upheaval.

          Not a tariff as such, but I watched my local industry get de-nationalised. It was overmanned vastly unprofitable and unable to compete on the world market. One set of dogmatic idiots kept the situation going for a long while, so when the idiots suffering under the opposite dogma came in to power, we had 10k direct job losses in a very short period in town with a population of 75k. You may be able to imagine the consequences socially.

          Maintaining an ecomonic imbalance is not a long term proposition, therefore stupid, eventually the restraint snaps and shit goes everywhere.

        • #3252722

          “Free Market” vs “Union”

          by mikeetemple ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          There is no “free market” when it comes to wages without a Union. Only the Union has an interest in establishing a balanced salary. CEO’s and CFO’s from the employer market get togother and agree to set salaries without a union is what is going on now.

          We need to have our concerns “heard” in the Market place. We cannot do it as individuals any differently than the CEO’s and CFO’s.

        • #3132724

          Free Market Salaries.

          by stan20 ·

          In reply to “Free Market” vs “Union”

          Unions prevent free market salaries. If a company isn’t willing to pay my price, I won’t work for them.

        • #3132615

          Union Representation

          by tonyackerman ·

          In reply to “Free Market” vs “Union”

          Interesting comments in this thread wrt compensation. I side with the unionists at this stage of my career, tho’ I didn’t always. I too thought that as an individual that my opinion was valued and that I could make my voice heard through reasoned arguements. I thought that by making my voice heard and when my arguements were evaluated, I would be justly compensated, and initially that seemed to be the case.

          Then my education began. The initial promotions and rewards were the bait to get me in deep enough to where the company felt they had control over me and my life. I was blinded to what was happening, and when you’re in a position like this, you work even harder to get that level of recognition and reward response back. It’s like a drug, you gotta have it. When you don’t get it, you’ll prostitute yourself in unimaginable ways to get it back.

          When you finally reach the point of realization, you think you can again approach those in charge and reason with them, and THAT’S when you come to find out that you’re all alone. Classic divide and conquer strategy, the individual against the machine. You have no leverage since there are now others who can step into your position (you did your job well and trained your subordinate(s) to do your job) and since you’ve already prostituted yourself before, the company knows that if push comes to shove, you’ll fold.

          People in our business have to quit thinking that they can make all on their own when dealing with management. You don’t stand a snowballs chance alone.

        • #3132535

          Hmm

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Union Representation

          Sounds like it was just time to switch companies.

        • #3132539

          Precisely wrong

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to “Free Market” vs “Union”

          A union will tend to stretch across corporate lines. That gives the union more power against each individual company. This lowers the “free market” of labor…

          In a market, each exchange is independent of the previous or next one. When there is collusion or monopoly you don’t have the liquidity necessary for competitive rates. Competitive rates permit fair market value for each resource.

          Companies see the workforce as a cost of business. If Joe is worth more to them than Jack, why not permit the firm to pay the workers respective to their contributions?

        • #3271824

          Common Myopia

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to “Free Market” vs “Union”

          At their worst a union will try to get a sinecure for it’s membership, whether their employers can support it or not. Always a long term losing proposition.
          At their worst a company will seek to reduce it’s salary overhead, whether the workforce is either capable of doing the work or the salary is capable of supporting them individually. Also a losing proposition.

          One put’s off being unemployed until the firm goes bust, the other put’s off employing until the firm goes bust. So they are both imbecilic positions.

          The only reason employers get away with it is because some individuals with capital milk as much profit out of the situation as they can and then bog off without facing the consequences of their withdrawal of capital.
          When either side goes for us and them whichever gets the upper hand is damaging someone else, can’t really expect them to like it can you ?

          On a personal note, my concerns do get heard by the market, if remuneration and conditions are inadequate I go elsewhere. This is a privilege I worked my ass off to get. I aren’t giving it up so some twit with money can buy my ability cheaper and I aren’t giving it up for some twit without my ability or his money can get part of my money.

          Anybody who want’s a piece of the cake should pay me for mine, learn to cook, or ask politely.
          If the latter, don’t presume on my generosity too often.

        • #3252695

          Reality

          by cartermofgurnee ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          Unions foster social stability – yes. The stability of the lowest common denominator. It does provide a sort of ‘insurance’ – insurance that if you’re an idiot, a bungler or just plain lazy you can still, for a short period of time, get a paycheck and use the club of the state to keep out competition. Unions are the last resort of the incompetent.

        • #3132738

          Real Reality

          by mitchschultz ·

          In reply to Reality

          I have to agree with with your statement. That is the story where I work. The most common phrases I hear on a regular basis is “Its not my job”, “It isn’t in my job description”, or “I don’t know”. I am the only employee in my department that is not a member of the union. This is only because I am classified as Professional (eventhough I am paid hourly) and the others are classified as Support. It is me against them. I have no desire to be a part of a union that promotes laziness.

        • #3132610

          Union workers are better

          by wbblack1 ·

          In reply to Reality

          Union workers are better trained, more productive and have less work place related injuries. You don?t know what you?re talking about. You also don?t understand much about economics from the perspective of the average person.

        • #3102025

          from an unionized IT worker

          by techsupport79 ·

          In reply to Union workers are better

          union promotes ultimate job security which fosters laziness. I have a coworker who constantly call in sick (called in and said “I WILL be sick next week” !?) yet he is still here after 8-10 years.

        • #3101913

          shame on your boss

          by maryacats20 ·

          In reply to from an unionized IT worker

          sounds like the boss either likes the person or is to LAZY to fire a that person ,the right way . I am a retired (27 years UFCW local 1000 ) union member. I worked in retail I can see where you guys could use a Union too; you have input as to wages, benefits,vacations , & holidays.Your UNION will only be as strong as YOU the members will make it . Been there done that . good luck organizing . I read your tech site to learn from you .
          Mary

        • #3101884

          The Boss – What about the Union????

          by mot_esach ·

          In reply to shame on your boss

          Don’t blame the boss! I had a guy just like this and fired him for misuse of sick leave and lying to me.

          The union could not find a contract problem but they supported a lawsuit. The judge told me I had to hire hime back. Not because I didn’t have grounds for dismissal – he agreed I had that justification – but because his ethnic origins didn’t provide him with an adequate work ethic – and I had to make allowance for that or I was discriminating.

          It is not always managements fault.

        • #3100659

          I heard that faulty work ethic

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to shame on your boss

          is now covered under ADA 🙂

        • #3101956

          Um thanks for playing but no

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Union workers are better

          You may have read my other posts about the place where I managed two desktop teams, one unionized, one non unionized. They both had access to the same amount of training. They both had the same opportunity to be productive. The unionized group was less productive. Why you should ask? Because it was difficult yo get rid of the deadwood in the union shop, and that made those who would normally work hard slack off, because they were upset we were forced to carry the deadwood. The non-unionized group worked hard because they knew that their own personal performance would impact the raise they received.

          Is there a lesson somewhere in there?

          James

        • #3101833

          Union vs. Non-Union Comparison… Contractors

          by questor1 ·

          In reply to Um thanks for playing but no

          It seems that your company does not have control of its IT staff if slackers pass off the work to others. Your company likely needs to develop better metrics to measure and compare workers in the same area(s).

          Employees (both union and non-union) need to know what management expectations are for the quality and quantity of work, as well as hiw their performance is reliably measured. These results need to be regularly shared with both employees and staff so they know where they are.

          I once worked for the US EPA as a help desk manager for contractors and was tasked with clearing out deadwood staff and improving contractor response to EPA clients. The prior contracting company tried to pack as many unneeded contractors as possible into the contract to jack up billing rates. We started daily 5 minute update meetings, better time to open and time to close statistics and a staff rating system that was updated weekly. No system is perfect for emplyees or managers, but I was able to fairly and completely show staff where improvements needed to be made. If a staff member did not improve, they were put on notice and given a 2 month period to improve.

          Some improved and some did not. Those who did not were regularly shown the ratings results and eventually the exit door from the contract. Our 40 person staff was cut in half within 1 year, but there was a very noticable improvement in staff morale and customer satisfaction once the deadwood was cut loose due to their lack of action…

          When employees are motivated, satisfied, and doing a good job that shows up in results – relations between management and staff are much easier regardless if the staff is union or non-union.

        • #3101185

          Nice set of assumptions there

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Union vs. Non-Union Comparison… Contractors

          If I weren’t mature I might feel insulted.

          I inherited the unionized group, and when I arrived they were somewhat demoralized. There was a performance review program in place, and though on the outside it looked the same for both union and non-unionized employees, the union’s collective agreement put some mighty bog handcuffs on what we could say and how we were to rate their employees.

          Nevertheless, I did clean house, it was just far more difficult. I convinced the union president’s wife, one of the worst slackers, that she should take early retirement.

          We did make major productivity improvments over the course of a year. But the point was and is, that it waqs much harder to do so in a unionized environment and that was as hard on the staff as it was on management.

          James

        • #3101415

          Not always the case

          by mitchschultz ·

          In reply to Union workers are better

          The union employees where I work are not better trained. I have more certifications and training than they do, and 95% of that I obtained prior to this job – on my own and out of my own pocket. It seems training is not a necessity in our IT department. Their productivity leaves a lot to be desired. I don’t need to understand economics to know that I am the only employee in my department who has worked several 20 hour days and comes in and works on holidays in order to get my work done and they wouldn’t think twice about working overtime – they will, however, sit at their desks after-hours to claim the time and a half.

        • #3272036

          Right . . .

          by gimpy0509 ·

          In reply to Union workers are better

          I live in an area where Unions are/were dominant. My father is a union representative. I’ve listened to these “Highly trained, productive union people” around where I live talk. “Less Related Injuries” — Yeah, most are not doing their job or sleeping. “Better Trained” — Most love training — for the food, free coffee and sleep time. I am a self taught programmer. I held 1 of the 2 top Technical Positions at the Worlds Largest Options Exchange. I ran circles around those with degrees and certificates. It was always the one’s who could not perform that wanted a Union — so that they would be protected. “Economics” — Do your job well. You will get recognised and paid accordingly. If not there are a lot of IT jobs out there and I have never had any problem getting a job and getting paid based on “MY” perfromance. If you can’t cut it, find a new line of work — drive a truck or something.

        • #3100504

          Careful…your management is showing

          by flowahpla ·

          In reply to Reality

          That’s funny, but it isn’t unions that put individuals with degrees in wood science “in charge” in charge of IT departments working for large multinationals.
          However, it is unions that protect the individuals in these departments from uninformed and incompetent decision making with regard to IT staff, and services.

        • #3132805

          Make a good case

          by hangin_online ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          There is a couple of points here to be made. Your reason for unions getting started is only half true. If you work for a large corporation and don’t have the ability articulate what your needs/wants are to management, then maybe yes, you need someone to speak for you. I work for a non-union company and negotiate my working conditions for myself. Key word NEGOTIATE. When you got hired for the job you do, you made an agreement to work in x conditions for x dollars. if you or the company can not live with those conditions any longer, you renegotiate terms or you go your separate ways. i don’t want someone else talking for me and especially not negotiating for my $$$.
          And by the way, a union will not stop outsourcing over seas. there is always a clause that can break a union, corporate america isn’t that stupid.
          Keep your knowledge and abilities up to speed and keep yourself valuable to your company. this way you have bargining power.

        • #3132802

          Are you nuts?

          by davew ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          Creating an IT Union is very likely the worst idea that I have ever heard.

          Unions are great for say Coal Miners but in an industry with such a broad base it would be almost impossible to manage union classifications.

          Also, Why should I make the same amount of money as the guy down the hall that has a paper MCSE and plays solitaire all day? Why would you want your salary dictated by a union rather than your personal performance?????

          Sure it’s great for the schmuck who is below the curve but what about the guys that go above and beyond? Why should I pay part of someone else’s salary?!!?

          In my book working in a union is like living in a communist country. Think about it, I live in the USA for a reason…

        • #3132739

          Why I would NEVER live in the USA

          by tech ·

          In reply to Are you nuts?

          And there you have the reason I would never live in the USA. Too many of you have the most misguided view of unions, and this underlying concept that your way is the only right way. No concept of the responsibility of the society to support the individuals who make up that society. Its every man for himself. Pathetic and sad. You need a social conscience as a country. You need to look at the peopel who are starving in the wealthiest country and supposedly the leader of the free world. Heck – just look at the travest that New Orleans disaster exposed to the rest of the world. You need unions more than anyone I think.

          Yep – I know this is inflamatory – but open your eyes people and look at the reality.

        • #3132663

          People Complain but . .

          by techiemikee ·

          In reply to Why I would NEVER live in the USA

          Enormous distruction in the gulf region but I think the expectations of the releaf effort were unrealistic not that the releaf was inadequate. A normal human reaction in a crisis situation is to fight or flight the danger not simply wait for releaf. Sure some are incapable but there were far too many able and capable people taxing the time and resources of the releaf efforts which meant releaf was unavailable to those who truly needed them.

        • #3132654

          OK….

          by corkymuldoon ·

          In reply to Why I would NEVER live in the USA

          Keep on chugging the Kool-aid!

        • #3132620

          Thanks be to God you don’t ….

          by startech ·

          In reply to Why I would NEVER live in the USA

          … and we don’t need you to tell us what our problems are! We already know. But at least we take care of ourselves and have since 1492! BTW, ours is the only way ( just thought I’d turn up the flame a notch ).

          We’re not a country without problems. But we know that our problems aren’t solved by unions. In fact, unions put us in the position we are now. You think that we’re all looking out for ourselves? Where do you think that ideology came from? It comes from every union worker out there that seems to think he (or she) is owed a living and ought to be paid $25.00/hour to install a ‘fricking screw. Give me a break PLEASE! Look at the cost of cars today. You can’t get a decent American car now for anything less than $30,000. All that for less than $2000 in material?

          I agree that it’s every man for himself — but you’ll find that everywhere in the world. Everybody wants to survive — and if you ain’t lookin’ out for yourself, you’ll soon perish. Somebody’s already said it but it’s Darwinism at its best. On the other hand, you won’t find a country that’s more generous than the US. That’s right — look at all the sacrifices WE have made on your (the world’s ) behalf. And, without thanks for it I might add! I don’t know what country you’re from, but how many of your people have or are dying to protect the world’s right to be free. Talk about having a social conscience? You have no clue!

          So, let’s open our eyes and look at the reality of it — shall we? It’s people who think like the original poster that will bring this country down. “Oh, we’ve got to unionize because I’m not being paid fairly….” Stop whining and find yourself another job. You’re being paid what you’re worth. If you’re whining about unionizing, then I bet you’re whining on the job too. And, your employer is seeing that and is saying you’re not worth investing in! Period! If that’s not true, then I dare you to post your resume and go live somewhere else.

          I’ve been in IT for a very long time. It’s had its ups and downs. I’ve loved every minute of it. I’ve come up the ranks by paying my dues, endless learning (BTW, life is an endless learning adventure — you got to keep up to stay up), and a positive attitude. I’ve changed jobs only three times in my life. But, I’ve always been willing to move up, or try different things. Some I liked more than others, but keeping a positive attitude has always moved me forward. No, I’m not in management, I’m a Techie. But, management is not out of the question anymore (it was at one time).

          Unionizing is not the answer! There are many jobs out there that pay you what you’re worth. Are you worth $50.00/Hr.? Really? Are you sure? Forcing your employer to pay you $50.00/hr when you’re only worth $10 (and you are if you’re a whiner) is going to hurt you, the company, and the country in the long-run.

          BTW, I am an American — naturalized! Am proud to be an American, and have served this country — in the military — for over 21 years! I loved every minute of that too. And, I am still serving this country through the skills I have learned over the years and the knowledge I posess and keep refreshing. Am I worth $50.00/hr.? You bet I am. Am I worth even more? At least double that! I don’t need a union to tell me what I should be paid.

          To hell with unions! And God Bless the USA.

        • #3132605

          Flame it up more!

          by tonyackerman ·

          In reply to Thanks be to God you don’t ….

          You forget your history. You live in a nation that from it’s very inception is the union of states that comprise it. The reason for this union is that the founding fathers realized they had no chance, NO CHANCE against the military might of England unless they banded together to see their grievances addressed.

          If you’re as good as you say, then prove it. Unions bring the standardization levels that show to a company that this individual meets these criteria and must be justly compensated. Otherwise it’s your word against the kid from geek squad and then it’s a matter of salesmanship.

        • #3132593

          your word?

          by davew ·

          In reply to Flame it up more!

          Why would your word have anything to do with your Track record and Professional experiance?

          If you dont have professional experiance your entry level, thats all there is to it.

        • #3132554

          I don’t need a union to speak for me — I speak for myself

          by startech ·

          In reply to Flame it up more!

          Frankly, I let my resume speak for me. I then re-enforce those statements at my interviews. But, I haven’t had too many interviews to speak of. I’ve received favorable replies after my very first interview with each of them.

          Regardless, the reason I’m against unions is that they lower standards — not raise them. In IT, I don’t need an idiot who’ll do only what the unions tell him to do — or even less. I need someone to be innovative, find a way to do something better and faster, reduce costs, willing to learn new things, and move up the ladder because of his knowledge and leadership abilities not because he’s had 10 years “screwing in a bolt.” I’m tired of seeing union members put in their 9-5, go home and live the good life as a couch potato, or spend endless hours at the local pub drinking with other losers, only to repeat the same old crap the next day. No desire to learn or make the company better, so that it too can make a better product, make more money and pass it down to its employees.

          If people are as good as they want to be paid for, there are plenty of jobs out there. You just have to look for them. Yes, you may have to move. Yes, you may have to stand up for yourself and show the prospective employer you’re worth it. Yes, you have to sell yourself. If you can’t, then maybe you do need someone to do it for you. But then, again, employers are looking for people who can communicate well. So, if you can’t find something about yourself to sell — then maybe you’re not worth it.

          As for my history, perhaps you’re living in history. We had to do that back then because that was the tool of the time. Today, everyone has an equal opportunity to prove him/herself (largely because of our history). That doesn’t mean we have to use old tools to bring about change. Times are changing. Time to use new tools.

        • #3102462

          Totally Agree and furthermore

          by dawuf ·

          In reply to Flame it up more!

          The workplace that we know in today’s workplace came to be because there were unions that fought for them. Equal Employement, labor laws, child labor laws were created as result of people unionizing factorys in the late 19th and early 20th century. Things we take for granted.

          Think about it, folks!

        • #3100538

          Dawuf

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Flame it up more!

          And the unions were a good thing THEN. They’ve shifted their purpose lately though from one of protecting workers to one of punishing business (of course, the businesses are not really being punished… as any costs they incur are ultimately borne by the consumer, meaning that union workers nowadays are shooting themselves in the foot).

        • #3100966

          Historically

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Flame it up more!

          The additional costs, back when unins merely fought for safe and reasonable working conditions, were passed on to the consumers back then, too.

          But we don’t consider that shooting one’s self in the foot.

          The difference is to what degree is reasonable for the company to use it’s employees for profit before use becomes abuse.

          At the moment, I lean towards companies are using employees (which is OK) and unions are looking for a way to rationalize their continued existence.

          I beleive that, with current laws in place, MOST unions are no longer neccesary.

          It’s OK to disagree with me. It is not OK to make rude comments towards my position simply because of the disagreement. (Those of you to whom this comment was directed know who you are.)

        • #3132596

          Why even bother to reply?

          by davew ·

          In reply to Thanks be to God you don’t ….

          StarTech: I think you made my point better than I did..

          One thing that frustrates me is the responses about American policies, to American people, on American message boards..

          If you think that we are not doing things the right way vote with your mouse and find some local place to whine and complain.

          I dont know of any American that runs around other countries techy message boards complaining about the way they run their country..

          Things are really simple in our world folks, there are many many different countries and cultures, if you dont like ours then dont interact with us. Isn’t is kind of 2 handed to complain about the way that we run our country on one hand but take our money and provide services on the other hand?

          Come on wake up take a look in the mirror, If I dont agree with a particular countries policies I will simple discontinue my relationship with them be it purchasing goods and services or interacting with them.

        • #3132483

          “American Message Boards”

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Why even bother to reply?

          Hey, pal. If you can’t take a bit of constructive – or even destructive – criticism then it doesn’t say much for your strength of character.

          You’re the one that’s whining! “Ooooo. Nasty foreigners saying bad things about us. What did we do to desrve it?” Why do you assume that any of us who aren’t American take your money? I don’t take any of your money! If you don’t like what I’ve got to say then [b]you[/b] go somewhere else.

          Now, you have a nice day. We, in France, know how to behave on the world stage. Americans? Pah! I fart in your general direction!

        • #3103420

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by davew ·

          In reply to Why even bother to reply?

          I cannot reply directly to you since the max thread level has been reached so here goes..

          BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

          Though your comments are amusing I dont understand the french. I visited france recently and I have to say of all the coutries that I have visited I was treated far worse in france than in any other country.

          We provide more aid to other countries that france on any given day, now france does provide some relief to others but it is no where near the scope of the US’s efforts.

          All I am saying is that we dont run over to french websites and blast your country, please show us the same respect.

        • #3103217

          Dave, don’t get upset.

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Why even bother to reply?

          I just got a bit chewed up by the “American Forum” thing and decided that – as the discussion was (is!) merely in a repeating loop – I’d both cause and take offence at someone being told [b]not[/b] to post. If you – and others – didn’t like tech@whatever’s argument then you should have either ignored him or countered his points but to round on him because he was a non-American posting a valid viewpoint on an international forum was and is not really on even if it is a US organisation. It’s hosted on the West Coast for chrissakes. That’s more foreign than anywhare!

          Anyway, if you can’t take criticism – or even accept that there might be a different viewpoint – from outside of your borders then you really ought to get a few more firewalls! Check out how many of the TR peers are Canadian, Australian and – like me – British and if you don’t like what we say then feel free to kick back (hard, if you like) but you shouldn’t try to stop us posting.

          The French “farty” thing was a Monty Python quote, by the way, which you US sorts seem to like. I just said I was French because I know how much you (and we) all love the garlic-chewing b’stards and I wanted a reaction. StarTech provided me with one although I only found it by accident.

          You responded with a tad more dignity and I apologise for the wind-up.

        • #3103201

          Dave

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Why even bother to reply?

          Though this is my second profile, I’ve actually been using this board since 1999. And gasp I am not American.

          This site may be hosted by a US company and the staff of TechRepublic may be based in the US, but this is the internet, it is advertsied and available to all. I believe I can say with some level of knowledge that in no way do the staff want this to be an American only forum.

          Don’t take it so personally. I have had Americans here call me a socialist, and make all kinds of nasty remarks about my country. Believe it or not, I now call some of those people friends.

          You aren’t the first to complain about this kind of thing. But think about it this way. What the US does, especially the actions of its government, affects the rest of the world. More than any other country, the US has a global impact, economically and politically. So naturally that inspires alot of discussion. But I have to say compared to most Democrats what we say is pretty mild. (humour alert).

          You say I have a choice whether or not to interact with the US. In reality, no I don’t. Every employer I’ve worked with over the past 16 years has some relationships either directly or indirectly with a US company or a US firm. Thats a fact of life for any medium or large business in Canada. My current employer is a US company. Sarbanes Oxley applies to us as well as our US counterparts.

          I was under the impression that the US favoured Free speech and open markets. It seems you may not agree with that.

          James

        • #3132590

          examine this statement

          by giannidalessismo ·

          In reply to Thanks be to God you don’t ….

          examine this statement “look at all the sacrifices >we< have done on >your< (the world's) behalf." IE the US is SEPARATE from the world as a whole. 'Protect your right to be free'? Where exactly does this miraculous phenomenon take place currently? Before you accuse another of having 'no clue' per socail conscience study some history. Look at the news, and not the managed news, which is parallel to a fascist regime's version. Also gotta love assertions about someone else's situation, based on your ideological preference, and not much else, like 'blah blah blah PERIOD'. Darwinism and Amerkanism at its worst.

        • #3132585

          Agreed…

          by cptnemo2 ·

          In reply to Thanks be to God you don’t ….

          Agreed…

        • #3132545

          Right On!

          by oldjags ·

          In reply to Thanks be to God you don’t ….

          Could not have said it any better. Where do people get the idea that ‘society’ owes them something?? Aside from a safety net to protect the incompetent and disabled, everyone is expected to pull their own weight in this world. If you’re not contributing to the greater good by generating income and creating wealth, then you’re essentially a leech feeding off the hard work of others. Others that are struggling to make a decent life for themselves, which is hard enough without the burden of having to lug dead-weight like you around with them.

          The US has the highest per-capita rate of charitable contributions in the world, so don’t believe all that crap about Americans being selfish and materialistic.

          Socialism is a proven failure as an economic model. Why is it that federal tax revenues actually increase in the years following a reduction in the tax rates?? It’s because it’s removed some of the overwhelming burden that hard-working people and businesses have to bear, and allows the economic growth that in turn, creates jobs, which in turn increases demand and more jobs. The way out of poverty and misery is not more government projects and spending and higher taxes; it’s jobs and economic growth and capitalism!! Without capitalism, where do the tax revenues come from that the socialists want to spend on all their favorite projects??? And, who gets to decide what those projects are? I much prefer donating money to charities of my choice; where I know and support what the money is being spent for; than to give it to some government, involutarily I might add, to be squandered in some vast and unaccountable bureaucracy.

          The US has spent enough tax money over the years in the ‘War on Poverty’ to give every poor man, woman, and child in America a small fortune. And what do have to show for it?? Not much.

          Socialism is akin to drug addiction. Once you’re addicted to life on the public dole, it’s hard to cut if off and start taking care of yourself again. Every government project that gives somebody something they haven’t worked for and earned individually is just another addictive drug. A drug that I have to pay for!

          If you take a lion cub and raise him in captivity – feed him twice a day, pamper him, give him a nice warm, heated cage every day until he’s fully grown – then turn him loose in the wild, he’ll be dead of starvation within a month. Why is that?? A lion is the king of beasts, he should have no trouble catching and eating whatever he wants, but he’ll starve nonetheless.

          Why are people any different than lions? If we’re raised in a form of ‘socialist captivity’, then we’ll never be able to take care of ourselves out in the real world; we’ll always be back to feed from the hand that now controls us.

          America may be many things, but ‘perfect’ is certainly not one of them. It is, however, a place where your skills and ambitions and desires, or lack thereof, will take you as far as you wish to go. If you’re poor in America, and are neither mentally or physically challenged in any way, then you’ve got nobody to blame but that guy in the mirror.

        • #3102015

          Are you worth $50.00/Hr.?

          by richard ·

          In reply to Thanks be to God you don’t ….

          depends what a loaf of bread costs….

        • #3102014

          And then some …

          by startech ·

          In reply to Are you worth $50.00/Hr.?

          Let’s just say I make more than than now. Am I worth more than that? At least twice so.

          Do I ask for it? I think you answered this one in one of your other posts.

          The basic problem with America is greed. I may have my faults, but that’s not one of them.

        • #3101759

          Military vs. Union

          by boogaloodude ·

          In reply to Thanks be to God you don’t ….

          I’m a Nam Vet myself, and I can’t think of anything more closely related to a Union then the US Military, and you spent 21 yrs. in it..you surprise me. Do you have any idea how long it takes to move up the ranks in the Union/Military? of course you do, you start as an E-1/Journeyman, and through time you aquire the skills to TEST your way up the ranks (Yes, Union workers have to pass a test to). They pay for your Health, Dental, for you and your Family, they have thier own Credit Union. They set you up with a retirement program, and even take care of you after you retire (Both the Union and the Military) What’s the difference? I’m not in a Union, but my brother is, and he’s a very proud Heavy Equipment Operator (those are the guys who build the highways we drive on), with a lot of specialty skills on a number of pieces of equipment. All you keep referring to are a “Bunch of Bolt Screwers”, and there’s a hell of a lot more unions out there then the AFL/CIO. Have you ever dated a waitress? I have, and she came home every night exhausted, and smelling like the catch of the day. She belonged to a Union (yeah, they have one for restraunt workers to), and I know for a fact that without a union, she never would have gotten her own Health/Dental, let alone put money away for retirement, it just wasn’t a priority for her, but like it or not, she had someone covering her ass (besides me) in case something did happen. Please stop waving the flag and calling Unions un-American, this country has it’s problems, but I don’t think they were caused by the Unions, it has more to do with the Elected Idiots!

        • #3132574

          No Collectivism Here!

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to Why I would NEVER live in the USA

          Actually, we do not want you here. This is America, a country founded on the principle that individuals make up the country. This means that we are free to compete for jobs from a price/productivity point of view. We are also competing globally and trying to protect/guarantee a particular wage will spell disaster for the US. Wages are already being driven by foreign markets such as China and India. These people can work much cheaper than most US IT workers. Low level programming jobs will always try to go to lower wage earning markets just like manufacturing jobs. In order to keep our job market strong across the board we have to quit belly-aching about how bad it is and work on productivity innovation which is our strong area and where we compete best with the rest of the world. Look at our automotive manufacturing companies being eaten alive by foreign competition and on the brink of going out of business. Guess what they are unionized and it is hurting their ability to compete in the world market. So is that what you want to do to IT as well, bankrupt it on the World stage? My advice is to quit complaining and start innovating so we can continue to compete, otherwise there will not be an IT sector to worry about; unionized or not!

        • #3272138

          automotive manufacturing companies

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to No Collectivism Here!

          were first cannibalised by the UAW, foreign competition is just snacking on the bones.

        • #3272056

          I watched mining and the steel industry

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to No Collectivism Here!

          die in the UK. Three forces pulled it apart. None of them could have done it on their own.

          Personal wealth creation.
          Cheaper labour overseas.
          Union leaders who believed in the former and refused to recognise the latter.

        • #3090355

          The Market

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to I watched mining and the steel industry

          Tony, I am not sure what you mean by personal wealth creation because in my mind that is a good thing (unless you are referring to people extorting money on the behalf of others).

          It is interesting that people will always try to protect what they have, in the hopes that market forces will not catch up with them.

          After WWII, when the free world rebuilt most of Japan and Europe (with the possible exception of rebuilding England) they used current technology (1945) while in the US and others were still using circa 1920’s technology. This was especially true in the US. Of course when given a huge technological advantage one would expect that over time their ability to compete would be better and we have witnessed that it made a great difference.

          Couple that with government meddling with the markets (we give you access, you do not reciprocate)then imbalances will occur because of the artificial constraints created.
          The market if left unimpeded by politicians is extraordinary at driving out inefficiencies which means a particular function (product/service) will always migrate to the most efficient/cheapest producer.

          From a nation perspective, can you trust those producers to look out for your national interests? Since the answer seems to be no most of the time, politicians stick their nose into the market from a protectionist perspective and create artificial constructs that will eventually fail, since in the long run you cannot bet against the free market.
          When this happens, you will see industries fail, workers displaced and generally bad things occur, which are then blamed on the “market”.

        • #3089447

          Personal Wealth Creation

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to I watched mining and the steel industry

          Otyherwise known as the ME syndrome.
          The same one that is driving US business’s to outsource IT to other countries so there more profit for them.
          What this does to your economy as a whole, the future of your economy or in fact the future, is immaterial when the guys in charge is ‘I got mine F’U’

        • #3132504

          We won’t miss you

          by tommy higbee ·

          In reply to Why I would NEVER live in the USA

          Sorry, but as much as everyone sometimes feels stepped on by management, unionizing just won’t work. The first thing that the company will do is outsource the entire IT department to an outside company, and unless you can get the government to FORCE the business to do otherwise, there’s no more jobs.

          I’m ignoring the ranting here about “people starving in the wealthiest country,” since it’s not true. As for social conscience, Americans give more to charity than just about any nation in the world. Why does that money have to be administered by a government bureaucracy before we get credit for a social conscience?

        • #3101634

          Whoa Dude!!

          by boogaloodude ·

          In reply to We won’t miss you

          Have you ever been to Downtown L.A.? I have and it ain’t a pretty site, on the other hand, the 7,000 homeless there don’t have to worry about Freezing to death like those in the Midwest, and the East Coast. Either way, there definitely IS a Huge Poverty Situation in the US, just because you can’t see it out your front window doesn’t mean it isn’t there. And as far as our government giving it’s fair share, I’m sorry, but I can’t even go there because it makes me so angry to read what you wrote that I might be kicked out for what I think about the ignorant rants!! YOU MUST BE KIDDING!!

        • #3101575

          Unions & Employer Groups

          by wagnernd ·

          In reply to Whoa Dude!!

          I feel sorry for those who seem to have such a limited grasp of just what a Union is. All a Union is is a group of individuals, with simular interests, who have baned together for the common good. It is a very democratic society. Very heavily regulated too.
          Your employer understands the importance of such groups. Just go into your Employer’s office some day and look around at all the plaques hanging on the walls there signifying all of the like groups he/she has joined to further their common good, and, to control you! john Wagner

        • #3100503

          Poverty Versus Unions

          by vlpresher ·

          In reply to Whoa Dude!!

          First of all I grew up in poverty. I am where I am today becuase I was unwillingly to sit back and let some knucklehead feed me a bunch of lies.

          If I can get ahead and then everyone else can to. Stop believing the lies passed on by the likes of Jesse (high)Jack(your company)son and get to work.

          We have the standard of living we have today in America because of the opportunities we have here.

          How many more people could be employed if Unions officials did not insist upon the unfair wages and benefits stolen from America’s coprorations.
          \

        • #3272136

          there definitely IS a Huge Poverty Situation in the US

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Whoa Dude!!

          Which has worsened terribly, steadily, since Lyndon Johnson’s “Great Society” swindle began. So the question to you is, are you willing to get the government out of people’s way and allow them to [b]earn[/b] a living in a free, productive economy (you cannot have one without the other), or do you want to keep socializing this already mixed economy, until there is no way for anybody to earn their living?

        • #3089453

          Absolutely

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Whoa Dude!!

          A bureaucracy’s’ first mission is to ensure the survival of the bureaucracy. Some in government think it is in their best interest to keep some people down, so that they will ‘need’ the government.

        • #3089399

          adunlap, you’re like an encyclopedia audiobook

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Whoa Dude!!

          “A bureaucracy’s’ first mission is to ensure the survival of the bureaucracy. Some in government think it is in their best interest to keep some people down, so that they will ‘need’ the government.”

          Try asking yourself “why” about some of these silly facts you insist on spouting. Then ask yourself “is that right” and “can I think of a better way to accomplish the same goal, or a more worthy goal.”

          The next time I read one of your posts, will be the one whose title is “I decided to begin thinking”.

        • #3089319

          re: Absolutely, adunlap

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Whoa Dude!!

          Correct me if I’m wrong, but . . .

          It looks like Absolutely said something, adunlap agreed with and expanded upon it, and Absolutely told him he wasn’t thinking.

          What did I miss?

        • #3089135

          apotheon & adunlap, Absolutely here, apologizing for his absent-mindedness

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Whoa Dude!!

          I should stop reading Miscellaneous at work. Sorry, adunlap, I read a couple of your other posts this afternoon, and should have addressed ‘The next time I read one of your posts, will be the one whose title is “I decided to begin thinking”.’ to Boogaloodude, and thanked you for your agreement.

          I’ll do so now, while paraphrasing some words of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: those who have (unjust) power seldom relinquish it unwillingly. I advocate withholding value (boycott, strike) and not the threat of force (terrorism, war of aggression, mugging, and laws that assign excessive recognition to collectives, including corporations & unions) to achieve social & political goals.

        • #3086016

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to We won’t miss you

          You forget one of the major points in ‘unionizing’. If your job is outsourced, the unionized employees of THAT company will object, and your job will stay where it is.

          Unionizing will give you – the employee – the same power as business owners have.

        • #3087125

          Uh, yeah.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          Sure. ‘Cause unions are strong in India.

          Oh, wait, no they aren’t — and they won’t be in any way helpful to us in our working lifetimes.

        • #3102068

          Just another ant in the colony

          by stan20 ·

          In reply to Why I would NEVER live in the USA

          …another identical, replacable part, in the larger organization. And you prefer that?? Now thats pathetic and sad.

          Thats why I would never live in whatever country you are from. (no location specified)

        • #3102016

          I can agree with only half

          by richard ·

          In reply to Why I would NEVER live in the USA

          Most of your statement is correct, but we do not all think that way. One big part of the problem is greed, many of the youg are not educated well, they are taught to type setup and push a button, but they don’t see the big picture. Those that hire them tell them how smart they are and they believe it, while the give away their future.

          Yep – that is inflamatory – please keep it up, it helps.

        • #3101958

          STARVING? I live in N.O.

          by gometrics ·

          In reply to Why I would NEVER live in the USA

          No one starved, the poor were fed, clothed and provided shelter. The looting was stopped within two weeks. The jobs here are plentiful and the pay is fine…including IT. You can make $15 per hour flipping burgers in some places. Housing is still a problem but KATRINA WAS the worst NATURAL disaster in U.S. history. It has been less than six months. How long did it take to rebuild Europe after WWII? Wasn’t it years with some friendly help from the USA? That same helping hand is in N.O. too though not all appreciate it. We hardly live in a country where everyone is out for himself. The U.S. is #1 in charitable giving last I checked. Real poverty is having no food, no shelter, and no hope. That does not describe any place in the U.S.A.

        • #3101116

          The US as #1 in Charitable Giving

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to STARVING? I live in N.O.

          With respect, not by the numbers.

          In terms of Government assistance, the US ranked 22 out of 23 countries in terms of giving as a percentage of Gross National Product. Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Norway give far more of their wealth away.

          Its is true that US citizens are very generous privately, but even when you factor that into account, the US on the whole is not #1 as a percentage basis. In absolute numbers it is the largest, but it is one of the largest economies and a fairly large population as well.

          http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#Sidenoteonprivatecontributions

          James

        • #3102437

          Private giving counts…

          by gometrics ·

          In reply to The US as #1 in Charitable Giving

          And our large economy and population are not accidents. It based on free markets. People want to come here because of it. Private citizens are more generous because of it. Bottom line is the U.S.A. gives the most money. Compare us to other countries with large populations to be really fair. And don’t penalize us because our government doesn’t raise our taxes to give more so they can look more benevolent. You bet our government would give more if we had the tax rates of the countries you mentioned. May it never be. Luxembourg? The GNP is probably smaller than the smallest U.S. state.

        • #3103014

          If you read the site

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to The US as #1 in Charitable Giving

          They do some analysis to account for private giving as well. I don’t discount private giving, in fact the author of the study makes the case that private giving is more efficient than government, something I personally agree with.

          It isn’t the totals that count, its the % of GNP, or per capita if you prefer. If you compare similar economies, say Canada and the US,the US is roughly 10X more population wise, with an economy that is more than 10X in terms of GNP (Canada’s economy has been growing to close that gap). So it would be silly to compare Canada and US in terms of absolute $$, it makes more sense to look at it on a per capita or % of GNP basis. On that basis , Canada gives .27 % of its GNP in government aid, while the US gives .17%. The adjusted figures which include private giving show a % of GDP as .07 for US and .14 for Canada.

          I am not trying to say that the US should give more or that they give nothing, I am simply attacking this myth that the US gives more than the rest of the world combined that I hear repeated often.

          James

        • #3103015

          If you read the site

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to The US as #1 in Charitable Giving

          They do some analysis to account for private giving as well. I don’t discount private giving, in fact the author of the study makes the case that private giving is more efficient than government, something I personally agree with.

          It isn’t the totals that count, its the % of GNP, or per capita if you prefer. If you compare similar economies, say Canada and the US,the US is roughly 10X more population wise, with an economy that is more than 10X in terms of GNP (Canada’s economy has been growing to close that gap). So it would be silly to compare Canada and US in terms of absolute $$, it makes more sense to look at it on a per capita or % of GNP basis. On that basis , Canada gives .27 % of its GNP in government aid, while the US gives .17%. The adjusted figures which include private giving show a % of GDP as .07 for US and .14 for Canada.

          I am not trying to say that the US should give more or that they give nothing, I am simply attacking this myth that the US gives more than the rest of the world combined that I hear repeated often.

          James

        • #3103409

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by davew ·

          In reply to The US as #1 in Charitable Giving

          GNP is ridiculous, the countries that need donations care about raw dollars and the fact is OUR country gives more than others.

          Lets look at some facts:

          In 2001, the United States gave $10.9 billion, Japan $9.7 billion, Germany $4.9 billion, the United Kingdom $4.7 billion, and France $4.3 billion..

          The United States is the world’s largest contributor of foreign aid in absolute terms ($15.7 billion, 2003), and Private foreign aid donations in the United States are on the order of $35 billion a year (2003)

          what counts are bottom line dollars…

          The whole GNP argument is basically a feel good for other countries, GNP doesn’t feed the starving or house the homeless, RAW DOLLARS ARE ALL THAT MATTER…

        • #3103293

          I agree that to the needy, its the raw numbers

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to The US as #1 in Charitable Giving

          But what I have been tryign to say is that it has been asserted that because the US is the largest giver in raw numbers, that they are the most generous.

          Let me try a simple analogy. Homeless person sits outside a restaurant. Rich man comes out, opens up his wallet, and peels off a 20, gives it to the homeless man. Bus boy comes out and does the same. Which one is more generous?

          Much of this comes down to attitude. I have many American friends and coworkers, who I know to be reasonable people, but here on TR and elsewhere there are a few Americans who continue to boast and crow that their country is the most generous and other countries do little in comparison. I’m not suggesting you have that attitude.

          James

        • #3103155

          JamesRL

          by davew ·

          In reply to The US as #1 in Charitable Giving

          Please dont construe my comments as personal attacks, I might have gotten a little heated but that is the nature of this beast and the whole reason that we come here..

          Now let me get back on topic.

          The problem that I have with GNP is that it does not take into account the tax money that the government reimburses people for personal donations..

          I suspect that if you were to take personal donation tax deductions into account our GNP would look a lot more robust.

          We have a different system, This is what we are all about. Because of this difference I believe the GNP numbers for the USA to be grossly inaccurate.

          The US is a different system where the people make the decisions not the government (at least thats how it is supposed to be). This puts the power in the peoples hands which includes a large portion of relief spending.

          Your analogy about a homeless man further reinforces my stance on this issue.

          1: Rich man(the US government) gives homeless guy 20.00 and the rich guys clients(the us people) give the homeless man 35.00

          2: bus boy(some other country) gives the homeless man 20.00

          Where does he come out better?

        • #3101765

          Dave

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to The US as #1 in Charitable Giving

          Don’t worry I don’t take it personally.

          I would argue that you don’t have a different system than Canada, I will let peers from other countries talk to how it works there. Canada too provides tax relief for those who contribute to charities, including the charities that provide assistance. And in many cases, Katrina included, in addition to tax relief the government will provide matching funds. If a Canadian gave money to the Canadian Red Cross for Katrina victims, they got a) a tax receipt and B) the Canadian government matched that money dollar for dollar.

          So how is the US system different, other than fewer government donations.

          James

        • #3101921

          Ignorance is bliss (for you)

          by rka ·

          In reply to Why I would NEVER live in the USA

          Socialism is dead. It is a system which supports ineffective and unproductive ways. Socialism props up the status quo with bureaucratic protections instead of looking for better ways to do things. That is why many inventors from outside the US leave their country to pursue their dreams in the US.

          You obviously have never been to the USA or you would NEVER say it’s “every man for himself”. This country and it’s people give more to humanitarian causes both home and abroad more than all other countries combined! The problem with you and those like you are that you choose to believe the liberal crap which is published in most main stream newspapers. The New Orleans disaster was due more to mismanagement than a lack of concern for the people affected. Get your facts straight.

          Get out from behind your newspaper and find out what real Americans are like. You might just find out we are not so bad.

        • #3101335

          HUH?!?!?!

          by nyitdude ·

          In reply to Why I would NEVER live in the USA

          The concepts of a Union are good. Protect the worker from harm, decent hours and pay, etc. But here? They suck. I was in a union many years ago, they never helped anyone with what they said they would. But they sure loved robbing our paychecks every week. In Europe, what is the unemployment rate? 20%??? Well here it is under 5%.

          Now I WILL say that even in the IT field many are underpaid. Most of the jobs available are the likes of Wallmart, Home Depot, etc. But where else can you get a part time job with health insurance and still only pay around 2.50 per gallon of gas? In Europe you pay HOW MUCH???

          I love this country, I would not want to live ANYWHERE else. This is and always will be the greatest nation ever. Dont like that comment? Too bad. This still one of the only places where if someone works hard, stays honest, and really cares, good things will happen.

          I think people who put us down just because, are jealous. Yes we have problems, yes we are not perfect, but there is nowhere else I would rather live.

          Our problems? Stop illegal immigration, stop overtaxing the working class, and most of all stop liberalism… Just my 2 cents, no intention fo offending anyone.

          NYITdude

        • #3102613

          A challange here ………..

          by dusterman ·

          In reply to HUH?!?!?!

          Just exactly where could you possibly be living in the USA , and not realize that the guvernment … once again …. has lied to you ?
          I’ll only do this one point as the list is really too long ……..
          POINT : The reported unemployment [ to the media , so that they will “verify” the guvments stats ] is a blatant lie and has been for a very long time [ there are those here that can probably tell you exactly when they started using the “favorable” system ] .
          A brief about the system ….. simple ….. when someone is no longer on the unemployment rolls ….. poof ! ! …… they mysteriously are no longer unemployed ……. what a wonderful and magical system !
          When I questioned a person [ from the guvment ] at length and got as loud as him ] the result was for me to be asked to leave …… for asking him for the truth ………
          FYI ……. later I was asked by someone [ still trying to convince me that I was wrong and to “preach” the wrong good news ] …… “how could you undermine the guvernment ….. they have been there for you and the other needy citizens for the hard times ? Why would you then tell a slanted tale such as yours ……… Hmmmm.
          Can you say subversion ………
          Please take your over paid [just guessing here ], over sized ass [ just guessing here ] to the rural counties in your own state [ NY ] and start asking how many people are really out of work and how many are working “day labor” just to put food on the table …… this doesn’t hold true for the wonderful NYC counties as much as the very , very rural ones ……….
          OH yea …… I grew up in one of those “poor” counties ….. hello , hello ….. is the miracle worker Hillary in the house ???
          Let me invite her to some folks houses where the meat of the day , week , month is venison ….. nothing wrong with that ….. I grew up to be a tall 6’2″ SWM 225lbs with a 56L jacket and a size 40 waist even at 55 yo ……. and still think that all you liberal wonderchildren need to be stranded in the “country” for a few weeks …….
          I personally guarantee that you will come back to your “wonder world” with a new slant on reality ……. the real one ….that there are millions of unreported poor …. some living in your area ….. people that will work [ not panhandle ] and work hard and only ask for a reasonable wage …… Hmmmmmmmm …..what’s that mr. employer …… oh you have an illegal that works under the table for $4/hr and if I want the job what will I work for ??????
          Hmmmmmmmm
          .
          Unions { most } have had their time , it has come and went for the most part .
          They too ….. lie to their members [ voters ] they cheat their members [ voters ] and finally they too act in morally irresponsible ways [ citizens ].
          EX……. IBEW …… worthless in the early 70’s ….. God only knows if “he” let any of their worthless souls into heaven since !
          .
          Sorry all ….. this guy just makes me realize what the guvernment has really baffeled most of our fellow country men into believing ……..

        • #3101568

          Newsflash

          by boogaloodude ·

          In reply to A challange here ………..

          Wake up Dusterman, Mr. NYIT is just as much a Publickin as You are, problem is none of you realize that your on the same side cause some of you are Religous Fanatics, and some of you are anti-labor fanatics, and all of you are a sandwich short of a picnic. Damn Ditto-Heads

        • #3100523

          I suppose

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to A challange here ………..

          That’s better than listing a guy as a deadbeat dad … 12 years after he actually died! 🙂

        • #3076601

          Want to not Offend ?

          by it survivor ·

          In reply to HUH?!?!?!

          Close mouth and engage brain. Liberal or Conservative ? Just words that divide. Think first then speak.

        • #3101965

          Really, look at the UAW.

          by rka ·

          In reply to Are you nuts?

          Finally someone with sense! People obviously have not learned a lesson from what the UAW has been going through. “Why is my job going overseas?” they say. They just don’t understand that there are people willing to do the jobs for less!

          Better wake up those of you suggesting union representation. If you demand too much, there are others who would be more than happy to take your place and employers won’t hesitate to hire them.

        • #3132719

          Unions have certainly helped the auto industry…

          by icubub ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          Yep, look at how well unions have helped the auto industry. Jobs aplenty!

          Unions were good arounbd the turn of last century to help institute change in working conditions, fair wages, decent hours. We’ve done a lot of this with legislation, and as some people have pointed out, fair market conditions.

          Find a specialty, something you enjoy. Don’t go advocating something stupid like unions! They will only help commoditize (real word?) IT even more! IT people are professionals, like doctors, lawyers, engineers. Unionizing IT would put us more in the class of laborers, machine-shop workers, factory personnel.

          Let’s not cheapen our image even more so…

        • #3132624

          You are labor

          by richard ·

          In reply to Unions have certainly helped the auto industry…

          Well maybe not since your description says
          Executive IS/IT Management

          So what do we have here a sheep in wolf clothing?
          You are still probably labor, I doubt you are a large investor and owner where you work.

          Stupid is thinking that unions kill the auto industry. Let me say that there are things wrong with unions. Members need to participate.
          However what killed the auto works was politicians.

          First there is nothing wrong with machine-shop workers and factory personnel. They are Americans with families and deserve to make a living. I don’t think it is “fair market conditions” when you move the factory to Mexico or somewhere even less developet, polute the environment, pay the lowly labor 25 cents per hour or less. Then politicians quoting fair compitation and fair market conditons remove import tariffs so your neighbors can compete for the 25 cents per hour.
          this is politics and oppression. Those same politicians also get into the unions and cause their damage there. What you don’t even know, mister Executive IS/IT Management is that you are already indirectly benefiting form unions and you may tink about this. When business gets real bad, who is more expendable you or the guy who can actually make IT work?

        • #3132607

          A bit sensative are we

          by techiemikee ·

          In reply to You are labor

          The days of starting a job down at the factory and retiring 30-40 years later are gone. Companies go under, they consolidate, they merge and they make these decisions based upon the demands of share holders.

          If you have a corporate merger, one work force is union the other workforce isn’t who are the shareholders likely to keep?

          It is public knowledge that corporations have shut down entire divisions and moved to other cities because they could not operate profitably or compete with the competition in a unionized shop.

        • #3132493

          Keeping which side

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to A bit sensative are we

          I wouldn’t determine which work force to keep or let go (if those are the only options I have) based solely on which one is unionized or not.

        • #3102034

          it is a political problem

          by richard ·

          In reply to A bit sensative are we

          you need a union and you need to vote.
          I don’t disagree with a thing you said.
          if we don’t want to compete with those who make 25 cents an hour or a day we have to have labor laws, import taxes. At home we need fair labor laws. They come and they go. I will be the first to admit that it is not simply this way or that. Those who think that they don’t have to produce because they are in a union are those that kill the union.
          What ever happened to a fair days pay for a fair days work?

        • #3102027

          Exactly

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to it is a political problem

          If you don’t get paid fairly, move on or affect the situation.

          But I don’t think unions for IT will positively affect the situation.

        • #3101348

          Depends on what you mean ..

          by peter.kelly ·

          In reply to it is a political problem

          Depends on what you mean by fair. A free market has no concept of fair, only in supply and demand. If your skills are in high demand then you get high pay. Is that fair?

          Is it fair that production jobs have dried up or that 55 year old metal worker is no longer employable, because his trained for a job no longer exists?

          I don’t know, but I think the questions are worth thinking about.

        • #3271964

          Okay, Peter, I’ve thought about your questions.

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to it is a political problem

          Here are the answers.

          Peter Kelley: “If your skills are in high demand then you get high pay. Is that fair?”

          Absolutely: Yes, because “high demand” means that the value of my skills is high as defined by [b]the market[/b], which means people who are free to choose what is best for them. At least, that is what “the market” means in a free, “market economy”. In a command economy, which is the only alternative — “mixed” economies only have some free industries and others controlled by the government, and are no “third way”, but a mongrel — “the market” is determined by the Fuhrer, commissar, party chairman, or whatever the most vicious thug chooses to call itself, until it’s stabbed in the back and replaced by the next thug.

          The individual or collective that employs me does so because it chooses, rationally, that the value it receives from my work is sufficient to validate the expense incurred. That is [b]exactly[/b] the logic employed by rational employees, and that’s what dealing fairly with other people means — pursuing self-interest rationally, and giving those with whom I deal the same choice, to decide whether dealing with me is beneficial. If it is not [b]mutually[/b] beneficial, neither of us has the right to compel the other to interact at all.

          Peter Kelley: “Is it fair that production jobs have dried up or that 55 year old metal worker is no longer employable, because his trained for a job no longer exists?”

          Absolutely: Not so fast, pal. Is it fair that production jobs have dried up? Of course. The market is demanding something different than it did before those jobs “dried up”. The market is composed of all of us. So, rephrase your question in the literal terms of the [b]cause[/b] of the phenomenon of “dried up” jobs. “Is it fair to allow you and everybody you love to spend their money on what they judge is best [b]for themselves, and those they love[/b]?” I hold this truth to be self-evident: yes, you are free to choose to spend your money on things that benefit [b]you[/b], as long as you leave everybody else free to do likewise for ourselves.

          It’s a lot of little people who compose the market, but it’s always the superlative achievers who are expected to pull the weight of the little people who are trained only for the demands of yesterday’s market, which means the desires of yesterday’s little people. Is [b]that[/b] fair?

          Separate question: “Is it fair that … 55 year old metal worker is no longer employable, because his trained for a job no longer exists?”

          Again, of course. When she trained for that job, he did so because the market did demand it. The desires of the market changed. That’s the way free markets work, and free markets are perfectly fair [b]because[/b] they allow each individual to decide her own standards of happiness and pursue them to the best of her ability. The 55 year old metal worker has the right to pursue happiness, not to stagnate the world economy so that her happiness can be given to her.

          Artists take this risk all the time, and most of them work in menial jobs while they hone their art, or move forward through effort and talent in a profession that isn’t what they love, but they do their jobs well because they are motivated by the pursuit of something they do love.

          They pay their bills, so can a 55 year old metal worker, unless she has made unalterable financial commitments based on an assumption related to her employment, which is alterable. Employment at will [b]is[/b] fair. Slavery is not. Laborers are not their employers’ masters, they are their employees, and doing your job well is only half your responsibility. The other half is maintaining your own ability to do work whose worth [b]to the market[/b] is what you want to be paid. I’m still working on that myself, but I’ll never ask somebody else to pay me more than my productive ability is worth in the free market.

        • #3088340

          Need to change my profile…

          by icubub ·

          In reply to You are labor

          No longer in management, so you can stop the socialist revolution!

          I just think of IT as a profession, much like doctors, lawyers, engineers. Was an enginner for 10 years, enjoy IT much better now. I think we are cheapening IT more down to the level of an assembly line worker (and there’s nothing wrong with assembly line workers either). But some of us have worked long and hard to get where we are in our careers, and don’t appreciate the effort of some to lessen the importance of IT!

          Now to climb off the soapbox…

        • #3132642

          Management Deserves Unions (and vice versa)

          by johnnysacks ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          Be careful what you ask for. The easy perspective is to view unions as insuring that the hard working backbone of any profitable company is adequately compensated rather that treated like animals by the corporate machinery running this country (world). Look at Verizon, benefits galore, time and a half for overtime, double on Sunday, striking because they work too much overtime. Try a job at Wal-Mart on for size please.

          The reality of any old school union shop is that a significant percentage of the workers are protected by seniority. The utter lack of motivation and competiveness of some of these people with regard to their primary jobs is mind boggling.
          Their highest motivation is involvement in labor negotiations to obtain as much compensation as possible for performing as little extra work as possible.
          Every single task has a negotiated time allocated to it and the goal of the union is to maximize this allocation.
          I’ve seen young workers come in from the real world and knock out 3 hour jobs in under an hour without breaking a sweat and with ABSOLUTELY no reduction in quality, even going so far as to point out problems and areas of improvement. Needless to say they are quickly instructed that that’s not the way things are done.
          The pipe-fitter needs a helper to hold up the other end of a couple pipes for an hour – don’t you DARE ask the floor sweeper to give him a hand, need to hire an apprentice pipefitter. Every single insignificant task you and I take for granted is mired down in this ridiculous beaurocratic morass.

          The problem is that there is nothing more deserving of unions than the incompetent narcissistic sociopaths in corporate management.
          Look at GM – management and engineering can’t put together a car that people want to save their sorry assed lives. Every police department and taxi fleet in the country buying Caprices, what do they do, cancel production. (A big thank you from Ford) Every bell and whistle piece of bling turns to malfunctioning crap after three years with Honda and Toyota dancing around them in the end zone. What was their flaming a-hole in charge Roger Smith doing when small cars were killing us? Re-engineering the biggest car maker in the world to produce the highest quality cars in the world… No, buying GI-Joe action adventure toy companies during the Reagan years.

        • #3132575

          Inflection

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          I threw out a 25% rate as something so over the top you wouldn’t take it literally. But you did anyway. I don’t know everyone’s dues rates, and I won’t guess at an average or even a median.

          That said, I’d rather negotiate my own pay. I’m above average, and I expect to be paid a wage commensurate with my abilities. I work hard at my job, and I like it. So I don’t mind a few extra hours, and I might be paid less than my true value ack to the company. But that’s OK. I enjoy my work and it pays enough to support what I enjoy outside of work.

          A set union wage doesn’t allow me that flexibility. And I don’t want to pay someone else to tell me when to strike, or what part of the job I am allowed to perform.

          See, I like computer stuff, and I like helping people. So I get a nontangible reward in my job. Try to set that across the board for all employees.

          Also, if I’m striking, I’m not helping people who need it.

          If you’d rather strike than do your job (for whatever reason), then find a job elsewhere! If I ever feel like I’m being taken advantage of, I’ll leave. It’s a mobile society. You have the freedom to work when and where you want. Exercise it!

        • #3101977

          re: inflection

          by cathleen301 ·

          In reply to Inflection

          I’m happy for you that you work for a company that cares about its employees!

          I’m also above average and expect a wage commensurate with my abilities. What if the “set union wage” you are talking about is something you negotiated?

          When we ratify a contract, we know for the next 3 or 4 years just what our wages will be and when to expect our raises. You see, we negotiate the pay rates, raises and benefits with the company. If we are not happy with the proposed rates or benefits, we don’t ratify the contract!

          I’m glad you don’t mind working for less than your true value. You’re lucky that you have an employer that won’t take advantage of that, or else what’s to stop them from deciding that the less you are so willing to work for is your true value? I?m glad you get paid enough to enjoy what you do outside of work. Does that include all the necessities for your children, grandchildren and retirement?

          I, too, find the intangible rewards very important. I love what I do for work and I?m good at it! I also help others by participating in my Union as a steward, or executive board member, or officer or just by going to the membership meetings to be the voice of those members who aren’t able to attend.

          Who would pay someone to tell them to strike? Do you even know what goes on before there is even the thought of a strike? Our union works hard to negotiate contracts – we haven’t had a strike in the 19 years I’ve worked there. No one would prefer to strike than to do their job. We take pride in the excellent work we do – which is why we can negotiate contracts without striking.

          I, too, do not like not being able to do all the work that I am capable of doing. So, rather than whining about it I work to make changes in the contract. Just as I?m sure you?ve made some tweaks to the computer stuff that you love to do. Unions aren?t perfect. But the people who are union members have the option of working to make them better.

          Let me know when you are 50-70 years old how mobile you are; how easy it is for you to just up and leave if your employer takes advantage of you. And, what about your pension? Family members that depend on you?

        • #3101967

          Pension?!

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to re: inflection

          I’ve never had a company tell me they would pay a pension. I get 401k contributions, but that’s it.

          Here’s a newflash for you: Anyone who works in a capitalistic society works for less money than they are worth. Else, the employer wouldn’t make a profit.

          I negotiate my own salary. I chose a company that offers benefits I like.

          I believe that my good decisions now will allow me to work until I chose to stop working, and by then I will have enough money for everything mportant to me.

          And if you think your pension is safe, you haven’t seen anything in the news for the last few years.

        • #3132569

          Stupid question.

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          How is it that you are STOPPING companies from laying off all of their employees and outsourcing?

          I suppose you can take the example of a union near me, (this is all hearsay as I was in the IBEW of a borough ‘next door’.) If you were a non-union jobsite, expect to find your gangboxes thrown out the window, tools stolen, sites wrecked… Would you do that?

          You could picket, hold out a rat I suppose… Would it make a difference? Are the secretaries going to strike with you? The reason that striking works is that if you have union electricians, carps, laborers, and tilers, however, non-union steamfitters… If all the unions on that jobsite struck, the site grinds to a halt.

          I work in a lawfirm now. Are the attorneys, secretaries, and paralegals going to strike with me? I doubt it.

          I have no idea how you think that creating unions will STOP outsourcing. If you can’t compete with india, you need a new set of skills. Not a union.

        • #3132487

          Silly-arse question

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          Which jobs will be taken away to outsourcing companies? Anything that involves a hardware interaction _can’t_ be outsourced. It’s awfully hard to troubleshoot a network outage or change a power supply over the telephone. I can hear it now:

          Help Desk (accented): Now you have cover off, disconnect power cable from component.

          User: Which ones are the power cables?

          Help Desk (accented): Power cable are wire connect at power supply.

          User: Where is the power supply.

          Help Desk (accented): Is box in back.

          User: Box in back of what?

          Help Desk (accented): Box in back of PC.

          User: There’s no box connected to the back of my PC.

          Help Desk (accented): The box the line cord plug into.

          User: That’s the PC!

        • #3132485

          Hah!

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Silly-arse question

          Ever called a major PC manufacturer for tech support?

        • #3273808

          Lol!

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Hah!

          Too right.

          Btw, I absolutely love that icon dpetrak. 🙂

        • #3101901

          Time to buy yourself a clue

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          Go ask the 30,000 FORD Union employees that will be out of a job in the next few years how stable the Union made their lives.

          By demanding more money than the job is worth, they priced cars out of competition with imports.

          Have you ever worked union? I have, and the only thing lazier than a Union employee is a government employee. that is why they can’t compete.

          I will NEVER work union again.

        • #3102592

          agreed Time for you to buy yourself a clue

          by richard ·

          In reply to Time to buy yourself a clue

          if you think that is what happened to the auto workers. You shoud beg for a clue

        • #3101887

          Unions happily screw over non-union peers

          by edwards ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          I worked at PacBell for 11 1/2 years. The unions
          really screwed the non-union, non-management
          employees by confiscating union dues from their
          paychecks and preventing them from moving freely
          between various departments in the company.

          When the contracts expired every 3 years, the CWA
          employees routinely lost 2 to 3 weeks of pay while
          walking the picket lines. Much more lost than was
          ever recovered in the new contract. The union
          bosses drove past the picket lines in big
          Cadillacs. The “strike benefits” were a very small
          return of the union dues extracted.

          Unions are attractive to the inept and the incapable who hope that collective bargaining will
          get them a better deal than their own paltry
          performance warrants.

          The cost of employee retirement benefits built
          into the cost of every GM automobile exceeds the
          cost of the steel required to build it. The
          non-union produced automobiles easily undercut
          the price of union made vehicles. GM and Ford
          are both in the toilet as a consequence.

          Unions are an anachronism that flourished when the
          United States was the only global manufacturing
          power on earth. It isn’t that way anymore. There
          is plenty of competition around the globe. The
          days of being able to make demands at the
          bargaining table that can’t be financially
          supported in the marketplace are over.

        • #3101803

          oh give me a break

          by tech ·

          In reply to Unions happily screw over non-union peers

          You seriously think the way collective bargaining and unions are run in the US is how it is done in the rest of the world? That yours is the ONLY system out there? That YOU have the best place to live on the planet?

          I dont know whether to laugh or cry at the complete lack of understanding of the world beyond your borders that shows through in so many people’s posts here.

          Your automobile industry isnt in trouble because the workers were paid too much. Its in trouble because your cars frankly arent worth buying. I suppose theres a view that if everyone were given a bowl of gruel a day in exchange for working themselves to death then the US auto industry would be flourishing?

          I maintain that each person in a society has a mutual obligation to the others in the society. Thats why we have shared infrastructure. Thats why we don’t kill and eat the guy who lives next door. The principles are the same in both cases.

          But then – how many of you vote? If you don’t vote, frankly you have no right to complain about what your Govt is doing. You have no right to complain how they are spending your taxes. Because obviously you dont care enough to participate in the process in the first place.

          Democracy (NOT a US invention, which may come as a shock to some of you it seems) is a wonderful thing – a country gets the sort of government it deserves for the amount of interest it shows in selecting that government.

          Unions are no different. They are a social institution created by people for the benefit of people. They can be good or bad depending on the people who are in them and how those people take them. I’m proud to have been in a related union in whatever job I’ve been in for all my life.

          My employer does well from my work. And I do well from the salary they pay me. They don’t own me though. If they choose to ship my job OS, then so be it. If I choose to leave, then so be it too. It seems to me the ones who are making the most noise about jobs going overseas are those who are opposed to unions anyhow.

          It must be terrible for them to live in a constant state of fear of their futures – whether it be if they will have a job, or how will they survive post retirement.

        • #3101791

          You are so full of yourself aren’t you?

          by startech ·

          In reply to oh give me a break

          When you look in the mirror, are you brown? Does your shit stink?

          It’s people like you that give the US a bad name. Are you really so envious of the way this country has come to be that the only thing you can do is bash? For crying out loud, there’s still room for you here — come on over — and stop bitchin’.

          Our cars do stink — not all — but most. If you want one that doesn’t, you have to pay for it throught the nose. You’re right! They’re not worth buying. That’s because they cost too *^&^%$* much due to an a-hole on the assembly line asking for 45.00/hr for doing nothing.

          You’re right again. Each person in a society should have obligation to the others. That’s why we (the US) help ourselves and _others_ throughout the world when in need. That’s why we sacrifice our lives so you can live freely. That’s why we give more per capita than all the countries in the world combined.

          I completely agree with you that if you don’t vote, you don’t have a right to complain about what happens to you or what the Gov’t is doing. BTW, I bet 99% of the people on this post are voters. Don’t go making vague generalizations.

          Maybe in your country you need a union. Are the labor conditions really all that bad there that you need a union?

          My employer too does well from my work and I’m very well compensated for it. I ask for no more even if I do think I’m worth more. And if they do ship my job elsewhere, I have more than enough experience and fortitude to be able to land on my feet anywhere. I don’t need a union to protect me.

          What you don’t seem to realize is that the US is made up of innovators and realists. What scares us most is people like you that want to stifle innovation and put everyone on the same playing field. I do live in a constant state of fear — that unions will continue to evolve and erode the very fabric that’s kept this country together.

          Honestly, there’s still room over here. Stop whining and buy a plane ticket!

        • #3101365

          oh give me a break

          by tech ·

          In reply to Unions happily screw over non-union peers

          You seriously think the way collective bargaining and unions are run in the US is how it is done in the rest of the world? That yours is the ONLY system out there? That YOU have the best place to live on the planet?

          I dont know whether to laugh or cry at the complete lack of understanding of the world beyond your borders that shows through in so many people’s posts here.

          Your automobile industry isnt in trouble because the workers were paid too much. Its in trouble because your cars frankly arent worth buying. I suppose theres a view that if everyone were given a bowl of gruel a day in exchange for working themselves to death then the US auto industry would be flourishing?

          I maintain that each person in a society has a mutual obligation to the others in the society. Thats why we have shared infrastructure. Thats why we don’t kill and eat the guy who lives next door. The principles are the same in both cases.

          But then – how many of you vote? If you don’t vote, frankly you have no right to complain about what your Govt is doing. You have no right to complain how they are spending your taxes. Because obviously you dont care enough to participate in the process in the first place.

          Democracy (NOT a US invention, which may come as a shock to some of you it seems) is a wonderful thing – a country gets the sort of government it deserves for the amount of interest it shows in selecting that government.

          Unions are no different. They are a social institution created by people for the benefit of people. They can be good or bad depending on the people who are in them and how those people take them. I’m proud to have been in a related union in whatever job I’ve been in for all my life.

          My employer does well from my work. And I do well from the salary they pay me. They don’t own me though. If they choose to ship my job OS, then so be it. If I choose to leave, then so be it too. It seems to me the ones who are making the most noise about jobs going overseas are those who are opposed to unions anyhow.

          It must be terrible for them to live in a constant state of fear of their futures – whether it be if they will have a job, or how will they survive post retirement.

        • #3272415

          Global Economy, and death of the middle class

          by too old for it ·

          In reply to Unions happily screw over non-union peers

          Ok, so other than drop the minimum wage to zero, meet India and China slum for slum, and have our kids eating out of trash cans because dad can’t make enough to feed a family of 3, any suggestion on the future of the American middle class? Retrain and redeploy into knowledge jobs sure was a bust.

        • #3101874

          What Unions Insure

          by rgoode ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          The only thing that Union involvement insures is that big companies will find any way possible to outsource the jobs to avoid their involvement. Workers can watch out for themselves through class action when a labor issue arises, but I do not want the involvement of a loose cannon with an agenda when it comes to my representation. I have been a part of class action representation which has successfully watched after my coworkers, and it didn’t cost me a monthly payment. Furthermore I never had to worry about my money going to political candidates I did not approve of.

          A free market means that an employee or prospect has the right to represent himself. If he or she does not like the salary or terms they can go look elsewhere. Unions typically have fostered resentment and confusion with an occasional success story, but they are a bad idea in the modern IT world.

        • #3101107

          We are the union and we will take care of you.

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to What Unions Insure

          sound familiar? 🙂

        • #3100591

          What’s really unfair

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          Is that the union protects the mediocre and lazy worker, while forbidding management to reward the guy that’s doing their work. They can’t give the better worker a raise because they’d have to give the other ones a raise too, and they can’t create a new position because the lazy ones would get it because of seniority.

          It’s the unionist mindset that is the very reason for a big part of the disparity of class in this country, and the reason other countries are going to catch up to and eventually overtake our economy. You can’t compete with genius and innovation on a level field, so you band together to drag the achievers down, and you pat yourselves on the back and call it a success. You’ve lowered the bar (now every kid gets an award in school, don’t you know, and aren’t there tens of millions of cars running around with those “My child is an honor student at …” stuck to them?). You’ve stifled work ethic, (why go the extra mile if you’re not going to gain from it? and will other employees hate you if you outperform them and make them look bad?), and punished innovation (If I discover this better way of doing things, how many people will it put out of work?). You think laurels are something you get when you graduate from college with a degree, and that they are to be rested upon for the rest of your lives.

          What have you achieved. Medical insurance? Bull, the companies who offer paid medical do so at your expense. They could be giving you that money, or, better yet, reduce the cost of their products or services. You wonder why medical care is so expensive. Well maybe it’s because the medical workers have to pay more for the products and services they need because those companies raised their prices to cover the cost of medical insurance their employees’ unions demanded. Higher wages? Yes, and higher prices, higher taxes, and union dues. It’s a spiral without end.

          And at what cost this ‘achievement’? Well, lots of companies are downsizing. In order to meet the increased payroll costs, they had to let one of your buddies go (what’s your union doing for him now?). Not only that, but now the rest of you are doing his work in addition to your own (uh oh: more stress, more illness, more medical bills, higher insurance premiums, ad infinitum). Or the company decides to set up shop in another country where labor is less expensive, and now EVERYBODY is looking for a new job. And lets not forget the retirement plans that were hit because they were invested in these companies that went belly up (what’s your union doing for the retirees who are taking it on the chin?), and these people end up dragging down the one’s who didn’t get directly hit.

          Yep, you’ve done it all right … achieved through compassionate ([b]not![/b]) solidarity. Congratulations.

        • #3272420

          CEO’s in Outsource Nation

          by too old for it ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          CEO’s in Outsource Nation never move their trophy shopaholic wife or Muffy & Buffy, the fashion conscious teenage daughters over to Bangalore to live.

          Before the fall of the Taliban, I always wanted to be there to watch the reaction of the local social vanguards to a couple of stuck up mall rats who were pissed that they had to be “in ocuntry” with daddy, the CxO of OutsourceCo.

        • #3272419

          CEO’s in Outsource Nation

          by too old for it ·

          In reply to Fear & loathing of Unions is unfair

          CEO’s in Outsource Nation never move their trophy shopaholic wife or Muffy & Buffy, the fashion conscious teenage daughters over to Bangalore to live.

          Before the fall of the Taliban, I always wanted to be there to watch the reaction of the local social vanguards to a couple of stuck up mall rats who were pissed that they had to be “in country” with daddy, the CxO of OutsourceCo.

      • #3132804

        You think $12/hr is bad?

        by 50kilroy ·

        In reply to You think $12/hr is bad?

        When you say, “Do what you love. Work hard at it. The money will follow”, you are absolutely, 100% WRONG.
        I was in the I.T. field since 1975 and only last year grew onions enough to move on to electronics research, which pays what the job is worth.
        In my 25 years in I.T., I have been paid what the job is worth (up through about 1985), then the Windows babies took over. With the advent of Windows, every Tom, Dick, and Harry began to think that he was a computer expert, which thought was reinforced by the toilet-paper MCSE programs. I have heard so many times from a 16 year old ‘hi skooler’ that he/she was an ‘engineer’ and therefore should be paid as an engineer.
        Back to your question, YES, $12/hour is bad. Bad, bad, bad. An I.T. professional should be paid a minimum of $35.00/hour, but that isn’t going to happen; not without organization.
        What a union could do for I.T. is to strenghen the field and exclude those ‘engineers’ with the Microsoft toilet-paper certs in favor of us who have hard experience.
        Sure, the tests have tough questions, and there are many MCSE ‘boot camps’ which will, for about $1500, drill a kid in the answers.
        Answers do NOT make an engineer.

        • #3132641

          Kilroy – your ok

          by richard ·

          In reply to You think $12/hr is bad?

          The big problem is that those who need a Union the most are those that don’t want it.

          When I say union I mean an organization similar to a trade union. I see so much reinventing of the wheel, this not only holds back and individual it holds back the industry…

        • #3132479

          Really?

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to You think $12/hr is bad?

          What do we know about the position that was advertised in the paper? It was for a “LAN tech” and paid $12/hr in Boise, Idaho.

          If this were for an entry level position at a small(ish) company, in a low cost of living area, you think $24,000 a year is bad?

          We don’t know if they required anything more than a High School diplaoma for this position. It might be that the LAN Admin needs an assistant, and wants someone he (or she) can train. Perhaps this person is biased against college educated people or simply prefers someone completely new and doesn’t want to “untrain” bad habits.

          If no one wants the job, they will either go without filling it, or they will raise the offered wage. It’s that simple.

        • #3272392

          Really? Really!

          by 50kilroy ·

          In reply to Really?

          Oh, they will fill the position all right enough. some “hi skooler” with a giant golden book of networking will take it at substandard wages and drive wages into the dirt for everyone.
          UNIONIZE NOW!

        • #3273716

          Good!

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Really? Really!

          Then someone willing to work at that wage, who is worth exactly that wage, has a job.

          You probably wouldn’t want to work there anyway.

        • #3271974

          Well said.

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Good!

          😀

      • #3132763

        Unions, huh? Looks like they’ve done great in the auto industry…

        by acavasin ·

        In reply to You think $12/hr is bad?

        First read dpetrak’s reply. Even though he doesn’t articulate it as well as he could, he gets it.

        Sure, go union and jack the wages up to $50.00/hr. demand double time for overtine, no- hell- demand triple time for overtime. Then you can start bitching about working conditions, idiots behind the keyboards, dust on the server, whatever. Management will piss you off and then you can go out on strike. Three weeks later the first boatload of Indian or Pakistani or Malaysian IT replacements will arrive….

        Check out the auto industry, the steel industry, the rubber industry and the construciton industry,
        then make your decision about unions…

        • #3132685

          Agree

          by ed woychowsky ·

          In reply to Unions, huh? Looks like they’ve done great in the auto industry…

          Two words: Bethlehem Steel.

          Look what the unions did for those employees. Where are they now? The last one that I spoke to was stocking shelves in a supermarket for $8.50 an hour.

          Alright, that’s more than two words.

        • #3102024

          yes because

          by richard ·

          In reply to Agree

          his own government removed the import tax that was designed to give him a fair chance against a 25 cent per hour worker.
          did he vote, did he challenge this?
          even a large company can’t help alone. If Ford or GM decided to be different they would simply cost more then the guys who pay 25 cents per hour. You have to have a union and labor laws, they have to be fair, the company needs and deserves a profit.
          they don’t deserve to pay 25 cents per hour and dump oil into the river. Not every company is against unions. Many like to hire good trained help.
          Id you are a programmer at, say Microsoft, do you really profess to know what one of your hours is worth in the grand scheme of things? I think you don’t. I do think you know if you know how many hours a week you will work and how much you will be paid and how much per hour that comes to, OR do you really know.
          Or are you a “professional” “exempt” = translation, fixed fee, open ended supply. You give as much as I demand when I decide but I don’t owe you more for working more. Sounds pretty stupid doesn’t it.

        • #3102022

          two words

          by richard ·

          In reply to Agree

          Japanese imports

        • #3102020

          more words

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to two words

          Which american companies made hybrid cars more than 2 years ago?

          So, if I wanted a hybrid, what should I have done?

        • #3101714

          American Hybrid?

          by raintree ·

          In reply to more words

          If you want an American Hybrid car, you can buy one that has an American Manufacturers name on it but the guts of it still comes from Japan.

        • #3100965

          Since when?

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to American Hybrid?

          Not back when I bought mine. NOW, yes, you can buy american-made hybrids. The technology and parts might not all be from the US, but the workers who performed the final assembly might be here…

          But that’s my point.

          (And the saddest part is, the technology isn’t from here.)

        • #3087795

          Wrong target

          by pkr9 ·

          In reply to two words

          The reason is not that japanese workers have low wages, they just produce better cars.

        • #3087516

          Without doubt

          by raintree ·

          In reply to Wrong target

          There are two (at least) reasons why the Japanese produce better cars. Their employees are interested in dong quality work and management is interested in produding a quality product. They both get compensated well for what they do because they are not building in their own obsolescence factor (into their cars or into their jobs).

        • #3102036

          Gets your facts correct

          by mignered ·

          In reply to Unions, huh? Looks like they’ve done great in the auto industry…

          Unions do not make the strategic decisions that drive growth and productivity.
          Toyotas and Hondas are built in the United States and many of the workers are represented by a union.
          Unions helped to build the great American middle class.

      • #3132680

        Paper MCSE’s = Interns

        by techiemikee ·

        In reply to You think $12/hr is bad?

        Paper MCSE’s are like interns so don’t compare an entire industry to someone just trying to get their foot in the door.

        If you were around the industry during the late 90’s then you are familiar with how over inflated the salaries were, and then what became of those over inflated salaries.

        Don’t assume all companies are low balling people. If the company or region you live in is under compensating then move on, that is the most effective way to get the message across. A union puppet walks the line and the employer has someone to negotiate with but if an employer leaves and finds a company they are better suited for, there is no negotiation and the former employer is forced to make drastic changes to keep the rest of the employees or to attract new ones.

        I personally welcome $12-$16 hour folks into the industry cause when they screw up–and they will screw up–then it usually wakes the management up to how much money down time costs them and the will gladly pay the premium rates it takes to get a veterans in there who can avoid the costly mistakes made by the rookies. $12-$16hr job listing means to me that I need to follow up with that company in 3 ? 6 months, because it will take 3-6 months for either the employer to get fed up with their new hire or the new hire to find better compensation elsewhere.

        • #3101821

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by whistl3r ·

          In reply to Paper MCSE’s = Interns

          AND that’s the problem… Management throwinig a wet towel around “thinking” they know how to properly staff the IT department then wonder why they have sooo much downtime. With these incompetent cert boy’s floating around you are bound to have problems.

          IT / IS involves an individual with a formal (college) education, not someone who took a two week crash course. We don’t see two week crash course surgeon’s do we, now?!

        • #3102478

          Actually 40 hours of training on a laproscope

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          Thake me from General surgeon to a certified laproscopic surgeon…

        • #3102477

          Actually 40 hours of training on a laproscope

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          Take me from General surgeon to a certified laproscopic surgeon…

      • #3132669

        YES $12/hour IS BAD

        by cathleen301 ·

        In reply to You think $12/hr is bad?

        Which unions are you referring to that take 25% of your earnings for dues? My union takes 2% of my earnings – a small price to pay. Especially since our contract, which has expired, mandates that we keep the same standards until a new contract is agreed upon.

        What do you think you’re worth? If everyone who does the same type of work that you do accepts $12/hour maybe your employer will decide not to increase your salary and because no one else is paid more than $12/hour maybe he’ll feel that he’s paying you too much – how much of a pay cut are you willing to take to do the same job that you are doing now and then some?

        Or, maybe your employer will freeze your wages yet double or triple your insurance co-pay and deductibles and weekly contributions. What percentage of your earnings are you paying or losing to your employer for health coverage? A union contract can protect you in that area.

        Maybe your employer will decide that IT “professionals” should work 50, 60, or 70 hours per week and aren’t eligible for overtime. What if your $12/hour is derived from a set 40 hour per work week salary, and your employer keeps the salary the same yet increases the number of hours to 50, 60, 70 per week?

        With a union contract your employer can not do this to you on a whim. The contract ensures a standard, and changes to that standard would have to be negotiated by BOTH parties. A union contract protects your self-respect and your right to fairly negotiate your value to your employer. A union contract will also establish a safe working environment, protects your job if a family member is ill and you are their caregiver; or need a maternity or paternit leave.

        Is a union contract perfect? No. For instance, there is work that I know how to do, have gone back to school to learn how to do – yet it is work that is in a higher classification than my job. The company will not train me to do that job, because I would have to be paid that classification’s rate of pay. But at negotiations, I can bring this to the attention of the negotiation committee and maybe the new contract can be tweaked. At the very least, I can try to make a change, I don’t have to just sit there and stew in frustration.

        For me, the union contract has more benefits than drawbacks. The job, wage, safety and working conditions protection that it gives me allows me to focus on being a productive employee.

        There are still a lot of unions out there, I’m sure IT workers can fine one that will meet the criteria that they establish.

      • #3132647

        You are blind

        by richard ·

        In reply to You think $12/hr is bad?

        or perhaps inexperienced.
        you should abide by your logo.

        You can through stones if you want but.. this is what happened to me in the past.
        I as a member of a trade union, I was a forman, I liked running jobs but the pay was not keeping up with inflation.
        Others in my trade did not support the union, they did not want to work together and did not want to pay dues. At a uninon meeting I tried to tell the those who speak lik you that they need guys like me and they needed their union. They did not listen and when the last company in our trade, in Miami, Fl went non union, I had to sit in the office for 3 days, I was the only one on strike.
        As a forman I made $1 over the rest. I was on strike to another $1 for going non union. After 3 days I got the measly $1 and went to work. I watched as their were no more raises and others worked for what I would not. Well the $2 over scale was not enough and I went into IT make $90k a year and the kind of benifits package that you hope for…. I have not always made this much, it is demanding, and sometimes I wish I could find another way. I have no job security and am racing toward retirement hoping I will be able to continue live on what I have.
        Not only do you need a Union to help you, those of you who think you don’t need it the most. I am an over producer, If need be I will pay a large sum to learn what your employeer needs and build it in my $100,000 computer lab. When times are tight I may take your job!….
        I think there is a better way, I would like to have more of a life other then IT. I would like to have some kind of working conditions other then reactive poor planning overtime. I put my job on the line often when told what I will do, when and for how much. I don’t think employers owe me anything other then a fair deal and my fair cut of the pie. I know that I will always give more then the minimum that I am required. That’s how you make a win win.
        Bring on a Union NOW, We all need it, perhaps you more then me.

        • #3132586

          Neither blind nor inexperienced

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to You are blind

          Actually, I have an old college degree in Economics, so I know plenty about this topic.

          Unionizing a field where the work is so easily moved to another sector is a terrible idea.

          But a lot of firms actually don’t mind having unions! The total cost of the labor force actually decreases when you have a completely unionized labor supply. And you don’t have to negotiate every hire, because the costs are known and set. Thus, you save money on the cost of labor.

          So, the original poster wants more money. Unionizing isn’t about money. If you want more money, negotiate for it.

          Let’s take the original statements and look at them:

          “I just saw an ad in the paper here for a lan tech for $12/hour!”

          So what? Maybe they are looking for an entry level position. Perhaps they need a lan tech helper, not an architect. We don’t know the whole story, just a factoid and some angry venting.

          “When I first started in this industry I was making very good money. I had a new cert and a master’s degree.”

          Again, so what? You mean you’re being paid less now? Perhaps the cert and the degree, both paper products, indicate a level or proficiency higher than what you actually prove to have. The jobs won’t last long!

          “I say we apply rules of work that apply to a 40 hour work week and serious overtime.”

          If your employer is failing to pay you overtime, check your state’s laws on the topic. You might have a case!

          Personally, I have a 35 hour work week and get paid for overtime (above 40). The other 5 hours are paid straight time. This is a common setting for positions in my firm where overtime is not rare. (We get paid double time only on holidays.)

          “I say we demand $50/hr for any IT related work, as a minimum.”

          I know many ‘techs’ who aren’t worth that much. Most aren’t, in my opinion. How did you come up with that number? Is it just what you wish you made? Is it based on some data?

          Go ahead, people – rip me one for this. But unionizing IT ain’t a great idear…

      • #3102069

        you have no clue

        by ssl648 ·

        In reply to You think $12/hr is bad?

        I dont even know where to begin. To suggest that any union would ask 25% of its members salaries is asinine. The actual cost of union membership is 1) about 1.5% of salary and 2) the freedom of negotiating directly with your company. Which means no more used car salesman approach to promotions for the underqualified, and no more low balling for the ambitious. Which can definately be bad if fall into either of those categories. But the point here is that IT has become the labor industry of the 21 century, we are where manufacturing was 40 years ago. If you feel that unions are bad for the labor industry then they will look just as bad here. On the other hand, when was the last time you bought something that was ‘Made in the USA’, now think about how easy it is outsource IT functions vs manufacturing.

        • #3102035

          Made in the USA

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to you have no clue

          First, I mentioned in an earlier repost that the 25% is meant to be so extraordinary that you don’t accept it as reality. I’d take more flack from more people if I stated 2% and someone had 1.5% and another had 1%. How dare I double it!

          Next, you have no clue if you think buying everything “Made in the USA” actually ensures you a job. There’s a little concept called “Competitive Advantage”. If you don’t know it, take a few international economics courses.

          Perrsonally, I’m worth more than most other people in this field. I don’t want my wages lowered because of some sliding scale limiting me to X dollars over Y years. If my value to the company is not proven, they can fire me. If they don’t reward my efforts, I leave. THAT is a free market.

          I buy things no matter where they are made. I weigh the cost, quality, and how it fits to my needs and desires – and then I make my decision.

          Quite honestly, if the US only makes crap I won’t buy it.

          Then again, there’s that “competitive advantage” concept again… All unionists should be forced to take econ courses…

      • #3101997

        Surrealistic

        by flowahpla ·

        In reply to You think $12/hr is bad?

        You seem to be malinformed, or perhaps fearmongering?
        Even worse case scenario, any union I have ever heard of doesn’t operate at that level with respect to dues!
        There are dues, of course, but most are in the low single digits with respect to percentages.
        As far as strikes go, there is no way around it. They suck.
        But they suck for the employer as well, and in most cases serve as a deterent to both parties involved. There is strike pay, but it is minimal to say the least.
        Unions have their pros and cons, just like anything else, but to be taken seriously, you need to first get real.

        • #3101960

          Getting real

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Surrealistic

          That’s the point. I’m not going to quote a specific number for dues (as everyone will vary) so I came up with a number that was obviously not accurate. This was intended to make the point without committing to an actual number.

          If I said 5%, people at 2% would be mad. If I said 2%, people at 1.5% would yell.

          So try to reread it again – jsut add your own numbers where appropriate.

      • #3101922

        Why show your total misconceptions?

        by sailor39 ·

        In reply to You think $12/hr is bad?

        dopetrk, I will answer each of your allegations/misconceptions with my knowledge of unions.
        First, a union does not hire people, the company with the union contract does. If the union wishes to keep the contract, it will send as many qualified IT applicants as it can find.

        Secondly, no union I am aware of charges dues of 25%.
        The norm is more like 3% to 5%, and it is certainly worth it because not only hourly wages will be great, but more importantly, you are protected from unfair work rules like 50 to 60 hours/week with no overtime, late nights after midnight and early calls the next morning, even to protecting you from “outsourcing”. I can see a tremendous need in the IT field for the able assistance of a union.

        Oh Yes, if a union wishes to strike, one of the things needed is a majority vote of the membership in the venue in favor of the strikeIf you stop and think about, there are very, very few strikes these days. Just abolut everyone agrees that a strike is absolutely the final resort.

        Disclaimer – I currently do not work in the IT field, but as the old saying goes…I know many who do. jack

        • #3101905

          In turn

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Why show your total misconceptions?

          “First, a union does not hire people…”

          Actually, they negotiate how many people work there. The negotiate the necessary standards for the hired personnel. They, in effect, do the hiring. (Granted, contracts vary.)

          “Secondly, no union I am aware of charges dues of 25%.”

          Me neither. The number, as I’ve explained a few other times, was meant to be outrageous enough to not be taken literally, but easy enough to make the point. Feel free to read the other posts.

          “…not only hourly wages will be great, but more importantly, you are protected from unfair work rules like 50 to 60 hours/week with no overtime, late nights after midnight and early calls the next morning, even to protecting you from “outsourcing”.”

          My hourly wages are great. I work overtime and get paid for it. (They try to make sure no one abuses this, actually.)

          It’s my company. I take responsibility for it. I work hard and I’m compensated accordingly. I would hate a union boss to tell me I can’t work if I want to. That I can’t let a 15 minute call slide if I want to.

          I take care of my company, and my company takes care of me. A union would simply get in the way of that.

          If you work for a place that doesn’t treat you properly, leave it. If they break the law, report them.

          And as for being protected from outsourcing – At the rate we’re adding remote offices, I am more of an outsource to the remote sites sometimes than I am a local worker.

          If I couldn’t do my job, I’d be fired. When the company can’t pay me or be flexible enough for my life, I’ll fire them.

        • #3103012

          You are obviously locked into a small company…

          by questor1 ·

          In reply to In turn

          You are obviously locked into a small company where you seem to be happy. You are probably underpaid for the quality and quantity of IT work you perform to the clients satisfaction. I hope you get satisfaction from this contracting gig because it can change from good to bad in a moments notice. What recourse do you have if the client company abruptly terminates you or your contract? If the company you work for changes its mind for any small or unknow reason, you can be out on the street in a heartbeat.

          As I stated in my original post, “Fear and loathing of Unions is unfair” – you have not address that fact that non-union IT staff have no job security (they are considered “at-will) and are subject to the subject to unfair and irrational management conditions. I have seen this done to people and it is not a pretty sight.

          Unions offer social stability to represent employees to management with a unified voice of concern. Unions enable IT staff to work with management in confidence and realize that IT workers do have a voice in the company that cannot be easily ignored.

          Small IT shops that you seem to work at may not have exposed you to many of the IT issues experienced at larger companies. Try working at a large company IT department for an extended period of time and you will see the office politics that often burnout employees. IT Unions help members provide a measure of fairness and enable union members to work with office politics that often burn non-union IT staff.

        • #3103195

          Obvious?

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to You are obviously locked into a small company…

          Obviously not!

          You don’t know where I work, and you won’t. So you’ll have to take my word for it that it isn’t small. Granted, I’ve worked in much larger places, and smaller.

          But so what if the company fires me? I’m good enough to find another. My state is an “at will” state. I can leave whenever I want, and likewise, they may terminate me whenever they want. C’est la vie.

          I can talk to management. If I can’t at some time, my boss will relay the concern. I have no worries there.

          I don’t fear or loathe unions. I just believe they shouldn’t affect my wages.

          It sounds more like you fear and loathe business without a union, though. And that I find unfortunate. Not that it bothers me, as I can then negotiate my wages higher than yours. Thanks.

      • #3272468

        100% agree

        by scifiman ·

        In reply to You think $12/hr is bad?

        Get paid whatever you want. Remember the good old days in USSR and some other countries (maybe still?). You were given a test in 10th grade or whatever. The outcome determinied if you were allowed into college and what your career in life would be.

        Also, I’m on the tail end of the baby boomers. All those older than me will be opening up slots in the coming years, making tons of opportunities for me and the youngsters. Plus, since the dot com crash, fewer folks when into IT so there will be some nice worker shortages in the future. I’m looking forward to it.

        Read The Automatic Millionire, save a portion of every dollar you earn. If we aren’t ignorant consumers that NEED piles of STUFF and live within our means, you’re all set to retire early and live comfortably. There, now we don’t need unions. Problem solved. My work here is done.

        • #3272403

          Smart consumers

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to 100% agree

          Thoreau said it best. “The man is richest whose pleasures are cheapest.”

      • #3090483

        reply to dpetrak

        by bigbadfish63 ·

        In reply to You think $12/hr is bad?

        unions also provide pension plans not 401k which a employer only contribute upto a certain amount of what they feel is worthy, also they can provide disability insurance, morgages at a cut rate,auto insurance discounts, medical benefits, dental,optical, with minemal cotributions if any from the employee, stop overseas out sourcing,yea free trade only befits other countrys, we need to take care of our own people first! wages whithin reason not like the UAW!RIGHT TO STARVE NOT RIGHT TO WORK IS WHAT IT SHOULD BE CALLED!Fair wage for a fair honest days work. there are pros and cons to unionization, thats why i stated if it is run correctly, not the UAW, U Aint Workin.

    • #3252343

      Unionize now and find your job outsourced

      by jamesrl ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I’m an experienced IT Manager and Project Leader with 20 years in IT, and with the market in my big expensive city, I can’t charge the equivalent of $50 US an Hour.

      If you want your salary to go up, provide more value to the company you work for, or find a company who will appreciate your skillset and hard work.

      I know that if my workspace unionized, the company would simply move the work to a non-union area.

      And don’t think you rule the world because you have an MCSE. I have a couple of staff members with 20 years experience each, who support a bunch of MCSEs. Neither of them has an MCSE. Both of them are far better at the ins and outs of MS servers/networking etc, than the MCSEs that they support. They provide docs and training to the MCSEs.

      Microsoft clearly makes money from the Certification process – how do you think a union would be able to get them to change their process?

      James

      • #3132814

        incompetent / uneducated management…

        by whistl3r ·

        In reply to Unionize now and find your job outsourced

        “If you want your salary to go up, provide more value to the company you work for, or find a company who will appreciate your skillset and hard work.”

        I hear this every day, colleagues complaining of poor management and the skills and knowledge management lacks. Simply put, ANYONE with a master’s degree “SHOULD” be making six figure at least, regardless of what effort is being placed into the company, chances are they are the backbone anyhow.

        The NUMBER 1 problem is, most corporation’s and business’ hire unintellectual people and follow a bureaucratic process. Case in point… two people apply for an IS/IT engineering position; one of which holds a graduates degree, the other 20 different certifications, no formal education AND a minority, who will get the pick of the draw? Chances look good for the minority.

        Second problem is, management needs to remove there head from their rear side and hire compitent employees providing exceptional benefits. Management also needs to LEARN to keep their employee’s happy… after all THESE employee’s whom you hire make YOU the money. Companis do not make money just because they exist, companies exist becuase of your dedicated employee’s who sweat and bleed while the executives sit in their padded leather chairs, believe me I know (I own my own business).

        Sooner or later all IT will walk out the same door they walked in.

        You think outsourcing will resolve your issue… incorrect. The market would severly panic, there would be a likelihood of a 500% salary spike.

        I guess you are not aware that hiring your copmlete IT staff offshore to replace the American labor market is illegal and will most likely land you below the curb.

        However, i do agree with the rest of your points… just because you have a cert does not mean you know anything. What do some companies expect for these assembly line certified techs, 2weeks of training and they already know how to setup a server, heh. You can blame management on that one.

        • #3132800

          I’m not advocating outsourcing

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to incompetent / uneducated management…

          And I take issue with your idea about legality. Dell is one example where they took entire groups offshore, and I worked for a Fortune 100 company which entirely outsourced their IT department of thousands of people. Outsourcing is not necessarily offshoring.

          Personally I don’t think that outsourcing is the answer in most cases. My point was that unionization often rewards the mediocre, and I can tell you that I managed two teams, one unionized, one non-unionized, that did the same job. The morale, competancy and performance of the non-unionized group was far better. The union made it almost (but not quite) impossible to get rid of the dead wood.

          James

      • #3102032

        Job longevity circa 1870’s

        by dlyons ·

        In reply to Unionize now and find your job outsourced

        In the late 1800’s one of the highest paying jobs in the US was telegraph operator, you know MORSE code, dots, dashes. etc. That was the equivalent of today’s IT. Alexander Bell spoiled the whole thng. As we’ve all seen, much of the work we IT people do today is replaceable, almost low skill level. Anybody who ever setup up a WINCHESTER hard drive in the 1980’s, complete with entering the error map, knows the changes that have occured.

        • #3102017

          Things keep rolling along

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Job longevity circa 1870’s

          I’m glad we aren’t still relying on just telegraph technologies.

        • #3101858

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by whistl3r ·

          In reply to Job longevity circa 1870’s

          And… new technology is born into the market on a daily basis, it’s not only the fastest growing market in the world it’s the most crucial market in the industry.

          So, Who’s responsibility is it to keep up with the times? Who devotes their time for such businesses to continue floating?

      • #3272389

        Unionize now and find outsourced job returned

        by 50kilroy ·

        In reply to Unionize now and find your job outsourced

        Unions do often cooperate with each other. For instance, should a large IC manufacturer not be paying a decent wage, that company might find itself without any raw materials due to the Teamster freight haulers not crossing a picket line. Should they hire non-union haulers, other companies might find that Teamsters have initiated a ‘sympathy’ strike. So, as you can see, a union can have wide ranging effect. The problem is that companies are so forceful in quelling union talk that folks are afraid to organize.
        Could a strike affect Microsoft? You bet it could.

        • #3272274

          Microsoft strike?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Unionize now and find outsourced job returned

          Why would employees of Microsoft ever strike? They’re well-paid, with plenty of vacation time and benefits. They have no interest in joining any unions.

        • #3272896

          Microsoft strike? NO!

          by 50kilroy ·

          In reply to Microsoft strike?

          Microsoft employees would not have to strike for MS to feel the heat.
          Teamsters move their product.
          Postal workers move their product.
          Cafeteria workers cater their onsite food provision.
          Electrical workers provide power.
          Union members do not cross picket lines.

          MS product sitting in a truck, undelivered, on the outside of a picket line, makes 0 dollars for MS.
          0 dollars for MS makes for fewer workers at MS with wage cuts.
          An electrical failure at the MS complex could halt production if IBEW were on sympathy strike.

          Get the picture now?

          IT WORKERS, UNITE NOW!

        • #3272880

          you don’t get it

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Microsoft strike? NO!

          There’s no reason for IT workers to unionize because the only IT workers who could benefit don’t need it. Strikes only make any difference the strikers consider positive when the employer is a major corporation, and the major IT corporations pay their IT employees well, give them good benefits, and so on.

          Get the picture?

        • #3272871

          Response to unionization attempts

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to you don’t get it

          Make everybody management 🙂

        • #3086907

          I get it fine..

          by 50kilroy ·

          In reply to you don’t get it

          I _do_ work for a “major corporation”. It has over 10,000 employees, over 200 sites worldwide, and a multi-billion dollar bottom line.
          That’s pretty major.
          They also pay their I.T. people like entry level “hi-skoolers”….no, worse that that.
          Average in our dept (for those who actually do something) is $30k. Manglers, otoh, are making 6 figs. The dept mangler is knocking down $250K, and is not now, nor has she ever been, a computer or I.T./MIS person of any kind. She is, by education, a musician but she does possess an MBA which makes her worth a 1/4 million.
          right.
          She is also the worst user we have, can’t even turn on her laptop..I’m not joking. She doesn’t know where the power switch is, just puts it into hibernation by closing the lid.

        • #3272650

          Teamsters, HAH!

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Microsoft strike? NO!

          Driving a vehicle, now there’s an irreplaceable “skill” any 16-year-old couldn’t learn!

    • #3252786

      Unionize IT Now? Yes. Very much.

      by sita999_2000 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I fully support your view point, especially to put an end to the practice of non-payment of salaries to IT professionals in India – Chennai where I know of a software outfit with only 4 or 5 programmers extracting work from them but paying only a pittance with a promise of paying the arrears in due course, keeping them on tenterhooks! The employer knows very well that if they go to court, it will drag on and the younsters would not venture to do so asthey will be either busy programming or looking for a break elesewhere.

      • #3101920

        Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

        by ibanezoo ·

        In reply to Unionize IT Now? Yes. Very much.

        You guys crack me up. You can’t force businesses to do anything. If someone is willing to work for less and can perform acceptably to the company, you bet your ass that person will get the job over you. Companies do not owe you anything. *You* must provide the incentive for more money/benefits/whatever.

        Unions aren’t all they’re cracked up to be, at least not these days.

    • #3252780

      Pick another field

      by daveinla ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Want more money? Provide unique skills for an employer who needs and appreciates them. You’re competing in a world market for skills. Good for you that you got that degree and certificate, but did they tell you in MCSE school that you had some kind of entitlement to a particular wage level because of them? By the way, if you can form a union that can guarantee employers at least $50/hour of value for members’ services, you’ll have some takers.

      • #3252741

        $50/hour memember services

        by aa8vs ·

        In reply to Pick another field

        If you find that kind of a deal, I am sure there are several [union] Delphi folks that would be interested…….

      • #3132768

        World Market..

        by mobill122 ·

        In reply to Pick another field

        That’s what people seem to continue to overlook. Today we operate in a WORLD MARKET, it is no longer a USA market.
        If anything, if you read a little world economics, you will find out China is the upcoming big player in the world, just as Japan was years ago.
        The US is fast approaching a $trillion dollar debt… and guess what… China will soon have a $trillion dollar CASH SURPLUS in… you guessed it… US DOLLARS.
        We continue to BUY every toy we desire and build huge houses we can’t afford. Overlooking the fact, that due to world market leverage, our wages are falling.
        We scream about Mexican’s, etc taking our jobs.. but here on the gulf coast.. there are signs posted all down the streets.. NOW HIRING, but no one applies for those lowend service jobs.
        Personally, I’m thinking of taking Chinese language classes, as they will soon be buying up everything in this country, like the Japanese did 20 years ago ! lol

        Oh…and for those who don’t know… Ft Knox no longer holds gold to back the value of our dollar.

      • #3090478

        reply to DavinLA

        by bigbadfish63 ·

        In reply to Pick another field

        I think $50.00hr is a bit much, but a fair days wage for a fair honest days work.how much does it really cost for school today(4yr program)or cost of living for that matter?if your in LA, Then you know what i’m saying.and i chose this proffesion because it was supposedly close to what i use to do, wage wise.and yes, they tell you in mcse school what your potential is!! that how they get all thease young kids to tap out their parents or whoever to get thease degree’s

    • #3252775

      Welcome to the global economy

      by golfloon ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Businesses exist to make a profit not to employ you. If it costs your boss $50/hr in Boise and $5/hr in Bangalore where is the most cost effective place to put his data centre? As for Unions I personally saw them destroy the UK’s manufacturing industry through unrealistic wage demands and strike action in the late 80’s. If you want more money learn more valuable skills.

      • #3252726

        This is thw kind of short sited…

        by rodney_scul ·

        In reply to Welcome to the global economy

        bottom line thinking that many in the US share, and will ultimately cause a severe economic trauma to occur in the US.

        Money is not the only thing to consider when making such decisions as you suggest. There are security issues as well. Talk to some of the companies who sent thier work offshore only to find an almost identical competing software product only 6 months after they sent the work to India.

        Many people also forget about the impact of culture on business. The culture in the rest of the world is radically different than in the US. Also, many cultures actually hate the US and use our own greed against us.

        I don’t think Unions are the answer, but this offshoring crap – if it continues to grow into an even bigger beast this time – will result in a severe depression of the knowledge industry in the US in the least, and at the worst a shift of the US IT industry OUT of the US.

        • #3100651

          Part of the problem….

          by sql_joe ·

          In reply to This is thw kind of short sited…

          A couple of notes….

          Yes, business is about making money…but at one time it was also about the employees and the community. That is no longer the case with many businesses (most) and that is the problem. You will find that with many small businesses, they still do care about employees and community.

          On the offshoring. If you look at the recent trends in congress to change the immigration laws to lift the H1B requirement entirely (and grant work visas to all family members of anyone granted a work visa AND to increase the total immigration allowed by an additional million per year) I think its a signal that offshoring is not saving as much money as hoped. Back when the HiB cap was much higher, BB (Big Business) threatened to offshore of congress didn’t extend the cap. They didn’t so BB offshored. I know for a fact that many of those BB’s are losing customers right and left (and MAJOR ones too) because of problems (some having been mentioned in other posts here). So, now BB is putting pressure on congress again to lift the H1B program entirely, because it is actually CHEAPER TO IMPORT labor than to offshore it, BB just doesn’t want to publically admit that, and with the issues of non-existant cybercrime laws in India and other countries, security and regulatory compliance are becoming an issue as well as increased concerns over identity theft occuring legally in these other countries by persons legally (no cyber crime laws) accessing personal information stored on systems that have been offshored and selling it. My company offshored a huge chunk of work to save money on engineers – BUT with all the reword required, they ended up having to hire back many of the laid off engineers just to make the stuff coming in from offshore usable! So now they’re paying the offshore AND their own guys, and R&D tunraround time has skyrocketed! which just isn’t good for business.

          As long as executive bonuses are based on the bottom line, this sort of short term thinking will continue to prevail. If bonuses were based on other items, such as reduced employee turnover (which is expensive), product improvements, factory efficiency, improved sales in numbers (not dollars) etc etc – then things would be much different, and upper management would begin looking more to the long term.

          I heard it put very succintly recently. How can an American worker compete with a worker making 50 cents an hour and no benefits?

          In the long term a rebalancing will occur, if we truly ever achieve a global economy, and wages will drop here (USA) and rise elsewhere – but this is a long way off. What do we do, if anything, in the short term. Do we let the US economy die in favor of improving Mexico’s economy? What is most important, the bottom line, or the American People?

          Guess its all a matter of perspective.

          George

        • #3100536

          Well put

          by whistl3r ·

          In reply to Part of the problem….

          Well put Joe! Your statements postulate uneducated BB. If BB’s want quality, they need to start paying for it, some pay more than they bargained for; as you stated redunted overhead.

          Personally, I do not belive Unionizing IT will “resolve” any problems, but will come down to it. However, every union is different and CAN be prejudice of whom they enroll, besides being prejudice is not illegal by any sense. Though BB will hire minorities over the well qualified canadiates because of the cheap labor.

    • #3252771

      As a member of a white collar union

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      The Australian Journalists’ Association, I know from long experience that white collar unions have almost no power against the employers.

      When journalists strike, management and non-union staff always manage to produce a newspaper.

      I can’t think of any white collar union which was ever able to wield any power.

      To get better wages and/or conditions, you have to be able to bring the country to a halt. In Australia it has been the petrol tanker drivers and waterside workers who KNOW they will get what they ask for because they are in a position to hold the country (or state) to ransom.

      If garbos go on strike, all hell breaks loose. If clerical workers go on strike, nothing happens.

      I have heard (although I have not checked this out) that if doctors go on strike, fewer people die.

      It’s kind of like economist Thorstein Veblen’s theory in reverse: [see “The Theory of the Leisure Class” (1899]

      He postulated — quite validly I consider — that a person’s level in the social pecking order could be seen by the way they dressed and the fineness of their skin.

      Thus the lowly labourer had calloused hands and wore overalls, while the managerial class had tender skin and wore fine clothes.

      So it works the opposite way in the supply-and-demand labour market. The lowliest person can cause the most disruption to society.

      I would suggest that individual IT Pros should seek private contracts with management to ensure an appropriate income.

      • #3252738

        A union doesn’t have power, the members do.

        by percywa ·

        In reply to As a member of a white collar union

        jardinier says “I can’t think of any white collar union which was ever able to wield any power.”
        Well, I have heard that many times, mainly from “union Members” who believe that the union should be able to get what the members want, without having to do anything themselves.
        Quite clearly, any organisation draws its strength from its members.
        When a unions members are not prepared to put up fair resistance to unfair conditions, then, obviously, their union has no power, and knowing this, the perpetrator of the unfair conditions will take advantage of that weakness.
        So, yes, historically, in Australia, so called “white collar” unions have not had the sort of power that the likes of the MUA, AMWA, CFMEU, have had, but with members taking more responsibility, more so called “white collar unions” are now achieving far improved outcomes.
        So if you want the AJA to have more power, get some strength and responsibility into the AJA members.
        Or you could always join another union that covers IT workers.

        • #3132561

          NYC

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to A union doesn’t have power, the members do.

          And the transit workers? The transit union struck for 3 days. Where did it get them?

          A worse contract than the last that was offered, 3 days lost pay, millions in fines for the union, $150,000 (or more) in fines PER PERSON, and the leader tossed in jail.

          Unions do not have the power they once had. This was the transit workers. NYC depends on them for the most part. 3/4 of people do not have cars. Granted, I doubt the Taylor law would apply to IT workers (as they aren’t really critical, like Drs., etc) but you aren’t going to move mountains, no matter how hard you try.

        • #3101427

          Right and wrong.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to A union doesn’t have power, the members do.

          1. The members have the power, not the unions. As such, they don’t need the unions.

          2. Members give their power to others by supporting unions, thus removing that power from themselves. Because they just lay down and take it, there’s nobody to actually stand up for the rights of the members, rather than the privileges of the union bosses, and because they pay exhorbitant dues merely for the “right” to work, unions have great gobs of money for lobbying in favor of consolidating power in unions, thus perpetuating the problem.

        • #3102371

          Is there a Time Warp??

          by boogaloodude ·

          In reply to Right and wrong.

          I speak as one who is not a member of a union, but I have more then a few friends that are. You sound like someone who just warped back to the 30’s when the unions were getting a bad rap out east, and in Chicago when the only negotiating tool they used was a Baseball Bat. Yeah the Unions have large Bank Accounts, but if you look at how it’s spent I think you’ll see that there are no Multi-Million dollar CEO’s running off with the funds, there’s no Insider trading of the funds, leaving the vested employees with no Retirement Funds, and unlike your Insurance Company and your local Church, they’re not Building Outrageously Huge Buidings to impress the community at large, you will however find that all the retirees will have a healthy Retirement fund that is in no danger of running out like our Social Security systems funds are predicted to do in the not to distant future (because they have GOBS of money), and you’ll see that they cover there members Health Insurance until the day they die. I have to hand it to (some of) them, they do take care of there own. Sure, you’ve got Major Corporations like GM and Ford who can hire the best of the best Attorney’s and move there plants to Mexico to build Weapons of Mass Destruction, but for the most part, and Particularly in the Service Industry, the Unions have done a great job in looking out for the members and there Families, Just the way that Abraham Lincoln wanted it. Yeah, old Abe was a backer of the Unions, AND HE WAS A REPUBLICAN!! Read your history and I think you’ll see that on paper Unions aren’t as bad as they are made out to be, they just got a bad rap when the Mob decided to get involved, and that’s like saying that all Harley Riders are Hells Angels, and we both know that’s not true, but there are those who decide on thier own, without actually looking up the facts, and believe me I’ve been reading a lot of statements in this Thread by people who know nothing more about Unions then they do about rebuilding, from the ground up, a 426 HEMI, although if it came down to it, I’m sure that there are a couple of know-it-alls who will put thier 2 cents in about how that should be done, with no actual knowledge of Internal Combustion Engines. Point is, why even discuss this without someone involved that has an actual working knowledge of what benefits Unions Have or Don’t Have to offer, Have any of you actually been involved in one? and if so for how long, in what position, and which Union?

        • #3272497

          Holy crap.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Is there a Time Warp??

          I’m not going to read that entire post. It’s one huge block of text, not broken up by subtopic, almost unreadable. I have better things to do than struggle through that alphabet soup.

          Judging by the first few lines, though, I think I get the gist of it.

          In the early days of unions, they were not businesses of their own. The people who ran them may have had some power, but that power arose because they were leading people who were part of the decision-making process. Nobody had to be in a union that didn’t want to be. People didn’t have to pay dues to be able to get a job in a given industry.

          Things have changed. Unions are not what they once were, and the law ensures that they will never again be what they once were. Where once they were nearly spontaneous consolidations of individuals with common cause into organizations to solve their problems, now they’re bureaucratic organizations whose administrators are concerned with their own lucrative careers as union bosses rather than with making life any better for union members.

          You’re the one stuck in the past.

        • #3273810

          On paper

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Is there a Time Warp??

          > “Read your history and I think you’ll see that on paper Unions aren’t as bad as they are made out to be”

          Communism works on paper too!

        • #3090351

          Mob Mentality

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to Right and wrong.

          I agree.

          It is amazing to me how many people will abdicate themselves to the notion that the mob will give them a stronger voice.

        • #3089461

          Me too

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Mob Mentality

          All it does is replace one set of boundaries with another, more restrictive one. Individuality is lost in the process. But I suppose if you can’t be a sucessful individual, being a successful mob member is something.

        • #3089377

          Death of the Individual

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to Me too

          So true!

        • #3089133

          Being a successful mob member is not something

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Me too

          It’s being a part of nothing.

          Being a struggling individualist is infinitely superior.

        • #3085139

          To the Individualist!

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to Being a successful mob member is not something

          You got that right!

        • #3084865

          That’s right.

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Being a successful mob member is not something

          You’re unique … just like everybody else 🙂

        • #3272052

          Hullo

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to A union doesn’t have power, the members do.

          If that’s true why did the union membership feel it was a good idea to help wreck the industries in which they worked. Mis-informed by a leadership with it’s own agenda perhaps?
          Don’t tell me it has n’t happened. I was born in a yorkshire mining village and then worked in the british steel industry for nineteen years. So either you are wrong or I and thousands of others simultaneously shot ourselves in the foot.

          What’s next governments don’t have power, voters do !
          You are either very naive, or you think we are all extremely naive.

      • #3252733

        re:As a member of a white collar union

        by rcohen58 ·

        In reply to As a member of a white collar union

        Not to belittle your experience, (unfortunately almost everyone thinks they write well or are real journalists, and we know that is not the case) but if the IT staff of a large paper (or any other business for that matter) went on strike and the managers and other non IT people tried to run the systems I would give them 3 days till the whole thing came crashing down. Think of what would happen if the press operators walked off, and the managers tried to run the presses.

        Years ago I worked for a communications company where they decided that they didnt need to pay overtime to get a large contract out the door. We would come in every Monday morning to find our entire work area in complete disarray. The managers who didnt receive overtime were coming in on Saturdays to do the work of the lowly, ignorant technical people. It usually took us half the day to clean up the visible mess and six months to fix the stuff that wasnt visible.

        • #3101436

          “if the press operators walked off”

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to re:As a member of a white collar union

          Thank you for validating the general theme of my post.

          The “more lowly” the trade, the more power they wield.

      • #3102100

        Great book

        by cactus pete ·

        In reply to As a member of a white collar union

        One of my favorites.

    • #3252768

      Unionization

      by revnum9 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Unionization should be available for every type of shop in which the workers are not owner-managers, and perhaps even excluding any managerial level.

      • #3132547

        Why We Shouldn’t Unionize IT

        by evisscerator ·

        In reply to Unionization

        Here it is in a nutshell …..

        If you were to organize and build up an IT Union (American Only), your bosses would shuffle you out the door while shuffling in some IT dim wits from the Eastern part of the globe that don’t speak fluent English and will take your job for 1/3 of what you are being paid.

        Unionize Globally and force Corporations into negotiations Globally …. That way we all might make the same money no matter where we work and live.

        You can thank all of this to our Government who got bought and sold on NAFTA/GATT.

        Here Here !

    • #3252767

      Union

      by 3starsinc ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      What is there to say. I agree. Where can I sign up? Or let’s get started!

    • #3252759

      Unions

      by malcolm_pattison ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I agree with James, an MCSE certification means nothing to some organisations, and will not employ MCSE?s within the UK because of individual?s fast tracking the MCSE syllabus. As James, we have MCSE?s on site, who have to take a lead from the more experienced technicians who are not MCSE certified.

      And $50 per hour some techs dont even get that a day dream on. Company?s could not afford to sustain that kind of wage as IT already sucks up most of a companies profits as it is.

      I believe that the working conditions for IT people need to be addressed for sure and a bit of respect shown for their efforts and the unrecognised work that goes on behind the scenes of any company IT infrastructure.

      Unions unite people sometimes for all the wrong reasons trust me I live and work in the UK, Unions within IT I do not think so.

      Malcolm

      • #3252731

        Re: Unions

        by rcohen58 ·

        In reply to Unions

        Malcom:

        I dont think that IT “sucks up” that much of a companies profits. Most of the time the IT budgets are the first to be slashed (well before the CEO’s yearly bonus). I agree that there are a whole lot of IT people to whom $50 a day would be a raise but I think that is a sysmptom of how little control we have over our own situations.

    • #3252746

      Maybe, but…

      by clmoran ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Do you really think that unionizing IT will help that much? After all, look where you have to call to get a new cert code for XP: INDIA.

      Unionization doesn’t help that much as I work in an industry that is highly unionized and I see our work going to Japan, Mexico, and now China is on the horizon. In a year I will be looking for a new career as the company is closing the door in my face–even after approving concessions.

      I could see a guild that actually raises the standards of IT. Companies will pay for quality and if a guild raises the bar of excellence with training and updates, then you will have the protections and success you want. A “labor” union is the wrong way to go (the voice of experience talking here).

      Have a wonderful day!

    • #3252743

      If you pay peanuts you get monkeys

      by deburca ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      In Europe I’ve experienced this problem for quite some time. I’m an independent contractor, and I’ve frequently seen my quoted rates undercut by some guy who is willing to work for a very low rate. The company that hires these low-rate workers normally comes short in the end, when they discover that they are getting just what they pay for. I try to resist cutting my rates, but ultimately the market rules.

      I don’t see the logic of your proposed unionizing anyway. Your $12/hour LAN tech would just charge the new minimum ($50 or whatever).

    • #3252740

      Unionize Idiots

      by 2manycerts ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      You can be the president. You just listed the reason we cannot unionize. Every two years a new crop of…

      Idiot.

    • #3252739

      The Real IT World…

      by van helsing ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Good for you, you earn the respect of getting that MCSE and that good ol’ Masters degree.

      Do you think the $12/hour is still small, try getting the feedback from your Asian peers and see how little they earn and yet they can also get the respect you’re looking for.

      The industry does not live on certs and degree alone, it has its own “circle of life” which also consists of non-MCSEs and yet have valuable contributions to the industry.

      I am myself a non-cert but is currently managing a number of MCSE staff and can work very well with my peers from our offices around the world with minimal effort. Ever heard of the phrase “equivalent experience”?

      Love the job, the respect and incentives will follow.

    • #3252732

      Historical perspective

      by a_greiner ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it -Santayana

      How about you just go ahead and move overseas and learn to speak bad english, then you would have all of the benefits your union would earn you now, instead of in ten or fifteen years.

      • #3074936

        Bad English

        by it survivor ·

        In reply to Historical perspective

        Please your response doesnt even warrent a rebuttal. Bad english ? Just read what you have written and you’ll find the perfect example.

    • #3252729

      I’ve been in IT for 25 years

      by jrwooton ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      and I have to say that is not such a bad Idea. then we woulldn’t be so screwed by the dogs of the management echelon everytime that they need a scapegoat to send to the cost cutting machine…I am so tired of loosing work that way…

    • #3252728

      I.T. unionization

      by ggenus ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I agree that we I.T. people could benefit from unionization, but I’ve been in the business since 1992 and do not have an MCSE. Does this mean I “haven’t earned” my space.

    • #3252719

      Re:Union!!!!!

      by gfz660 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Squaredge: Iam retired from the teamsters union. There is good and bad in everthing. If the IT were to be in the union. In my opinion, that would be good. But like everthing else wages would have to be regulated. Under a contract. But as you say there is a lot of competition out there. I was a shop stewart for 15 years on & off. So i understand how the system works. These were just some of my thought,s. Sincerly Zeeman

    • #3252717

      Remember Eastern Airlines

      by cptnemo2 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      In a time of supply glut, prices fall as do options. There is a story: Once upon a time, a major airline carrier named Eastern had to negotiate with their pilot’s union. The pilots believed themselves underpaid and ill-used. It so happened that there was a glut of pilots in the market at the time and airlines were suffering from an upstart, not expected to last long, called ‘Southwest Airlines.’ Eastern tried to reason with the pilots, but they had none of that, and struck the management. This was a mortal blow to the airline, which went belly-up and no longer exists. The pilots? They became IT people because that was the only growth market at the time…

    • #3252716

      First Steps?

      by qzh00k ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Write your representatives, no more H1B visas, or no increase in the number. I (US itguy) am now outnumbered by offshore recruits in many tech meetings I attend. I have seen this trend in the last five years go exponential.
      The knowledge transfer going on will eventually help the rest of the world match our capabilities in manufacturing sysems, with cheap labor to finish the blow. I consider it a matter of national security.

    • #3252713

      Not a good idea

      by rgoode ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I don’t know who said it, but “our arrogance will be our downfall”. There are too many dynamics that go into IT salaries to think that we can demand anything. I work for a company that is driven by what our customer is willing to pay. Economics and demand drive our salaries and the best we can do is to give the customer our best. Furthermore, go ask a Ford employee what the Union has done for them and you will get a better perspective. Those who wish to live in an ivory tower of titles and certs go ahead. It will make more jobs for the less arrogant ones.

    • #3252707

      knew i’d see this one eventually

      by simplyshaman ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      there’s always one in a bunch.. but here’s my question. do you realize just why it is that people complain so much about outsourcing american jobs to the rest of the world. it is because of unions driving wages through the roof, which in turn drives prices through the roof. eventually we’ll outprice our entire right to an “american way of life”.

      unions are a bad idea, they breed more strife than they help. and more companies are willing to pay higher wages and give better benefits to non union employees than those who succumb to this guerrilla tactic employing institution of the american economy.

      my advice, just say no to unions

    • #3252701

      RE: Unionize IT

      by odee100 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I agree that a union would benefit the IT world. I, myself, am not MCSE certified, but do have a Masters degree and several years experience. I live in Billings, MT and am forced to work as a tech for the local cable company. The wages are barely above poverty level. I am not sure the local economy would support a $50/hr wage, but it should be a lot more than it is currently supporting now.

      It is true that there are too many people in the industry that haven’t earned their space. I believe it is due to the numerous companies that offer the “canned answer” type of MCSE classes. That is the reason I went to school and earned my degree. I have the knowledge. I have the experience. Now, lets join together and create the decent jobs so we can afford to live.

    • #3252693

      Unionize

      by trwright ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      There is already a union for IT, it is under the Teamsters umbrella. Do you really want your life controlled by a bunch of people that really only want your union dues paid on time so that they can vacation in a better place than last year?

      • #3101076

        I Agree

        by boogaloodude ·

        In reply to Unionize

        That money is better spent lining the coffers of your Multi-Millionaire CEO

    • #3252692

      The World is Flat

      by architect ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      You need to read a book on the best seller’s list entitled “The World is Flat” by Thomas L. Friedman”. It dives into the technological changes that have been affecting IT including outsourcing to India, China, etc.. thanks to the internet and the world wide laying of an over abundance of fiber optic cable, hence the title.

    • #3252686

      I STRONGLY agree

      by epollnac ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      We are NOT union, BUT would love to see it happen.

      I started in the IT world about 20 years ago. I worked for a contractor at that time as their System Administrator… their work force was entirely union. I started at 6.15/hour (about 12,500/year). My 9th year there, making a whopping 18K/year, I started some research. I found that persons doing the same work as I were getting paid at least 2 times what I was getting. I brought this up to the owners of the company and requested a substantial raise, only requesting 28K/yr. They thought taking me to 22K/yr was good enough. At the time of their “good enough” raise, I put in my two week notice and accepted a position making 36K/yr. I am still with that company and am making a little over 65K. I have seen this company I?m with not let technicians go (GOOD technicians I might add?) and hire younger techs at much lower rates, like at the $12.00 to $15.00 per hour? it just wrong.

      • #3101954

        So..

        by cactus pete ·

        In reply to I STRONGLY agree

        The answer was to switch companies, not unionize?

        I had a little trouble following the last bit, I wasn’t sure if you were complaining about the current employer or not.

    • #3132816

      Performance Based Merit Reviews vs Union Negotiated Terms

      by srrattech ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      What type of employer would provide the best opportunity for advancement & achievement as well as just compensation. Employers with a policy providing annual performance reviews for advancement and/or increased compensation allow an open opportunity to succeed. However, unionization removes any advancement or compensation on individual performance. Job Description, Title, Seniority, pay scale is all that matters. The freshly studied cert will earn just as much as the senior cert if they hold the same Job Title/Grade. Seniority would count for little unless the union mandates tiered pay scale based on years of service to the union and not ability to perform. Remember, all members to a newly organized union have the same seniority level: new member.
      I’d rather be judged for my own performance. Shop around for the employer with the suitable cmpensation package. Also, an individuals compensation is based on value to the employer. I would take the $12.00/hr job if it is with an employer of sufficient size. All I need is the foot in the door. If there is no performance level that provides the compensation desired then one must consider themselves a dime a dozen, as well as working in the wrong field.

      • #3087948

        Performance based merit reviews

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to Performance Based Merit Reviews vs Union Negotiated Terms

        are a management con !
        First one I did I couldn’t get full marks in any category because then I wouldn’t have any reason to improve !

        Not even for my attendance which was 100% !, damn lying cheating swindling f***wits.

        Aside from that promotion of mediocrity is endemic in places where unions have a lot of control. As you say one member is as valuable as another, so they want them all to keep their job.
        When this dead wood has seniority, its very hard to get on.

        Course entrenched deadwood is not soley a problem for unionised shops otherwise I would have stopped running into it years ago.

    • #3132815

      In Dreams come Reality….

      by weld387 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I am currently a Union Worker. I mainly work for the rail road. Used to be a Union Iron Worker before 9/11. IT stuff is just a hobby for me at this point. If the industry were Union I would sign up in a heart beat. The only problem I can see is all the work going to Foriegn places like say “INDIA” were some cat named Winston is doing the work for like two dollars an hour!!! How are you going too offer the same IT service’s and justify to a share holder that your pay should be fifty an hour? I truly wish you luck.

    • #3132813

      NO WAY!!

      by jabamonte ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      If you want to see the results of unionization, just look at the automobile industry. Unions blame the company, but when your union contract states that a forklift driver makes 18.00 per hour or that a person who installs the shocks makes 25.00 per hour it isn’t the company, it is the unions that have driven car domestic companies towards extinction.(no pun intended)

      What makes the domestic car industry a pandemic is the fact that union workers believe that a forklift driver should make 18.00 vice 8.00 per hour. In a market driven society, the market decides what a fair wage should be, not the union.

      All that being said, the car companies are not blameless, the contracts the car companies agreed to were crafted when domestic car companies held 87% market share. Domestic car companies are short sighted and had a “you take what we give you and like it” attitude. They forgot that consumers are the final vote and that consumers vote with their wallets.

      If you unionize IT, you would put us on a slippery slope. Ours is a market driven economy. If you are unhappy with the wage you earn, move to a place where you can earn more.

      • #3132576

        Product quality and health care

        by wbblack1 ·

        In reply to NO WAY!!

        Why shouldn?t a forklift driver make a living wage. You?re an elitist. Us cars suck. That?s why people don?t buy them, and that?s one reason the companies don?t ?make money,? even though their executives take home tens of million. Another reason the auto industry is not making money is because we don?t have national health care. In Canada GM makes money. They have national health care. The U.S. spend 14% of its GNP for health care. No other country in out of the single digits. We have the worst health care in the industrial world: raked 37th by the World Health Organization.

    • #3132808

      Union No – OT Pay yes

      by bernhard.odom ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      how about some overtime pay…..

    • #3132807

      Poor Management = Unions

      by woodwurker ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Money isn’t every thing in a job! (Although we’re not at $50.00/hour we’re close with the benifit package and all the overtime.)

      Our I.T. dept. has been unionized since the late 70’s. Having been in the union at that time, the only reason we certified was because Managements incompetency. I’ve now “crossed” over to I.T. Manager and have taken with me all the negative experiences from the Union days. Even though the staff are still Unionized, they enjoy many more perks than their peers in other departments. The staff know this and keep things to themselves.Treat your staff as you would want to be treated. Believe me, it really pays off! We have had zero turnover in I.T. for the last 15 years.

    • #3132806

      Unionize? Brilliant Idea

      by codebubba ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Oh yeah … that’s just what we need, more reason for the businesses in this country to send the work overseas. Brilliant.

      Have you never observed what unionization does to an industry in this country? It results in over-priced merchandize that is lower in quality and creates a generation of lazy workers who expect everything to be given to them. No thanks.

      I don’t support abuse of employees either – but unionization does more harm than good these days.

      -CB

    • #3132801

      Unioins

      by earl keith ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I have worked in union environments from several perspectives, and I have never seen them benefit anybody in the long run.

      Sure, some employees make better wages now. But just as many have to accept a wage lower than their qualifications.

      Unions also tend to make a business an adveserial place to work. When the “whole” business team is not smooth, the consumer has to pay higher prices for services and goods.

      I know you do not but goods and services that do not give you the best value.

      I have never joined a union because I see it as giving up my rights to stand on my own merits. I have always felt that if my employer is to stay in business, he cannot pay me what I am worth today. The moment I am worth less to the company than I am being compensated, I will be out of a job one way or another.

      I work for a contractor. One of our major clients picked up and moved 1300 jobs because of the Union. Wages were not the issue. A lack of productivity and 12-14% absentee rates were.

      If you unionize IT, you will see the drive for excellence diminish, and you will see the cost of services for things you buy go up.

    • #3132792

      “Three” Big Words

      by jmail ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Ford. GM. Chrysler. Look at the economy in and around metro-Detroit.

      I worked with a company that had unionized IT employees and being a member of the union was mandatory. Ironically enough, I was brought in because they didn’t have the “time” to implement changes to their IT architecture and infrastructure. They were required to meet hourly requirements and couldn’t work past certain times due to union constraints. In this case, most of the IT guys wanted to finish what they were working on, but received pressure from their union to comply with the hourly guidelines. Overtime could not be approved to finish these projects because the company could not afford the overtime salary rates. It was cheaper to bring me in as a consultant…

    • #3132791

      Unionize..? Its too late

      by tpsman ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I think Microsoft has done a great job of selling the MCSE cert to the corporate world. In my view its experience that counts and that certs are just paper.

      In regards to you idea of demanding $50/hr. Thats just silly. I have several friends who have returned to India and now work in IT there. They get around $10/hr. I met a guy the other day who was bragging about how he dumped all of his U.S. IT people and hired a group in Pakistan to do his .NET development. He pays $9/Day/person!

      So forget the Union idea and spend time trying to think of a new career outside of IT. But make sure your new job isn’t one that can be outsourced as well. Try plumbing, they already have a union!

    • #3132782

      The big bad wolf is competition

      by artlynch ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      What’s a little restraint of trade among friends?

    • #3132780

      Unions can stifle ingenuity/career progression

      by cklondon ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Unions are great for unskilled, semi-skilled, or more manual trades (this is a generalization, I realize this is not 100% accurate, read on before flaming). In these areas (like plants, warehouses, and government centers), employers try and get away with paying as low as possible and working them long, hard hours. The contracts are negotiated to force employers to pay their employees in identified steps or scales, set up acceptable minimum and maximum conditions, and ensure job progression is dictated by the negotiated contracts.

      In contrast, IT is a collection of highly skilled trades. If you are good at it and/or have a lot of experience, there is a lot of demand for your skills. In the case of highly skilled workers, unions can be a hindrance. They tend to protect people who are out of touch with modern practices, limit the ability to progress, and force you to work within a set range of variables with regards to pay, pension, benefits, etc. Most IT people with any experience can negotiate conditions on their own, and if the company doesn’t treat them right, they can walk to the competition.

      As a skilled IT worker, you have an inherent responsibility to keep up with your skills, much the same as health care and other areas have required numbers of hours on professional development each year in order to stay relevant.

      Even in most smaller areas, there are several options for IT that include (if all else fails) relocation to a larger center or even working as a consultant (if you can handle the pressure).

      • #3088757

        Highly skilled ??

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to Unions can stifle ingenuity/career progression

        I’d question your assertion that we are highly skilled profession. You may be highly skilled I know I am, I’m also aware of a whole bunch of people in the profession who aren’t, not by my definition anyway. The univerity of X or Redmond’s definition perhaps, not mine though.

        Face it, our skills have been devalued to the point where they are common and easily achievable. Whatever the orginal reasoning behind certs as soon as they became a cheap narrow focused replacement for experience and or a degree, high skills became a luxury to many employers.

        I aren’t even going to mention diploma mills and Degrees’R’Us

        The is of course why we are hearing stuff like unionise IT now, from people who can’t compete on the playing field we have now.

    • #3132778

      Measuring Value

      by johnaaaaaa16 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      The problem with such a plan is that everyone is treated as equal. Having been in IT for over a decade I have learned that there are people at all different levels.

      For example, if I can produce a application that meets the customer’s/boss’s needs in 4 weeks and you require 8 weeks and we both work 40 hours per week, are you worth the same as I am? Likewise, if two people both take the same time to produce a given result (in any area of IT) but one person’s solution requires less maintenance, then there is a difference in value.

      Until the IT world has a way to truly measure value produced then there is no point of trying unionize.

      Why should people of vastly different skill levels be paid the same? Certification tests are fine but they don’t measure value. With luck, we will find a way in the future.

    • #3132777

      Everyone’s a labor expert

      by cbny01 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I am suspicious of anyone that writes the out of hand, knee jerk reactions both for or against unions here. The fact is that unions have caused great good and great harm, just as business owners have. There are no good guys or bad guys here, just people all trying to get a bigger piece of the pie from a certain angle. I have worked as an IT contractor for 13 years with clients that had both union and non-union employees. It is obvious that abuse runs in both directions. I have seen a unionized employee that makes $50/hr with incredible amounts of vacation time complain about his job for an hour while on the clock. An hour. In essence his employer paid to receive insults. However, I have also seen management spend time to convince their non-union employees that they are all “a big family”, only to toss them at will later, or demand pay cuts while their sky-high bonuses remain the same. The fact is it that it is a much more complex issue than “unions bad” or “mgmt bad”. Plus how could you do it – the field is so varied and complex. We still can’t figure out if it’s a software or hardware problem…

      • #3132755

        not a labor expert but

        by roberts184 ·

        In reply to Everyone’s a labor expert

        I agree anything can be abused or mismanaged. But you do need to look at the power structure to understand where it is more likely to be abused. Corporations are organized, do have a lobby, influence laws to favor their position, share information on worker’s salaries in order to minimize their cost, black ball people who act out, and have their own agenda. Contrast this with the disorganization you see in these posts when you look at labor. It quickly becomes clear who is winning this battle.

        ps. I have opted out of IT and I am a few months away from a masters degree in education where i will join my unionized friends in teaching.

        • #3132718

          I agree but…

          by cbny01 ·

          In reply to not a labor expert but

          organized labor also has a very powerful lobby. Hence, the organized. If they didn’t unions would have been busted a long time ago. Personally I sympathize with labor for the most part based on the impersonal nature of a “corporation”. I cannot remember who said it or the quote exactly, but basically the entity we call a corporation allows many to share the profits while none accept any blame. I also have little faith in economic “laws”. These are not laws like gravity where compliance is moot. People can decide what to do with their resources, and their motives are almost certainly more complicated than a simple model could predict, as anyone familiar with supply and demand knows. For example, I read a post on here that said if you offer low wages you get crappy workers. Assuming a crappy worker is someone that knows little about IT, my personal experience has been otherwise. I have seen “crappy” IT workers at every pay scale. I got underbid by someone from another country b/c what I considered to be an unreasonable rate was his fortune…and he was good. I still stand by my earlier comment though. Even if you wanted to unionize “IT” where would you even begin…

        • #3101356

          you have to start somewhere

          by roberts184 ·

          In reply to I agree but…

          with only 5 to 10 percent of folks working in private sector unionized, I would have to disagree with your strength of organized labor argument compared to the strength of organized business. If you want to begin to unionize IT, you begin as every labor movement ever has, at the bottom, organizing the union. This, above all, has been the weakness of the American labor movement for the last fifty years.

    • #3132776

      Standardize, not Unionize

      by lightspeed555 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I’ve read most of the responses, not all. No one it seems has mentioned that there is a real disparity in how IT services are quoted/billed or otherwise. A lot of “industry captains” really don’t have a clue (had a librarian in charge of IT dept) of how much work IT’s do or are responsible for. Don’t know if there is a standardized charge per job – it would go a long way though to “normalizing” salaries which it sounds like everyone wants. (the auto industry has such a thing for repairs). I’ve worked on systems since vaccuum tube days and find that the way the industry has evolved “frustrating” at the very least because of this. Hopefully, IT’s could “pull together” or at least agree to some accord for their own sakes as well as the industry..

      • #3132668

        Who you goint to TRUST to set Standards?

        by ludedude25 ·

        In reply to Standardize, not Unionize

        Ok say you get rid of all Unions, Now who’s left to set your wages? Do you really believe that all the big corperations will give there employee’s fair wages and benifits? Ha now that’s joke.

        A union was designed to give the workers power. It’s only major downfall is too much power which can lead to it’s demise. Only Union members who abuse their power destroy the union name.

    • #3132775

      The Flag has left the Continent

      by nacromancer ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Corporate America will leave this country when the bottom line is no longer profitable. The self interests of Corporate America has been the bane of Politicians who fear their own jobs will be at stake each election when their constituents start seeing jobs and local Government revenues generated by those jobs move over seas to a cheap, often oppressed, labor force. Anyone can teach a dog tricks, but people are not dogs. We learn things…
      Everyone wants more, that is the bottom line. There is no such thing as loyalty when it comes to a Share holders demands when a bottom line fails to show an expected profit margin.
      The lines are being drawn in the world of knowledge for hire vs a profit margin. No National Standards or structures are set to guarantee a corporations investment in a persons unproven abilties. Unionization could at least in part set the standards for guarranteeing an IT’s compentancy and qualifications. Therefore ensurring the Corporate world a tried and tested, worthy of their investment asset. And prove to the Corporate World that they do not have to worry about whether or not their investment is being wasted.
      An IT Union could provide the means to keep everyone who claims to be what they claim to be a place in the work field comensorate with their tested and proven capabilities. There by ensuring to the corporate world they are going to get what they are paying for. Also the Union could also provide an opportunity to further and extend the capabilities of it’s members as they choose to increase their IT specialties by learning from those who are much more advanced and experienced in areas they themselves are not. That is the way to sell the Union Ideaology to Corporate America. We will ensure you get what you are willing to pay for. And by these standards and guidelines, tried and tested, by our best experts, their investment in one of our members becomes more secure. If the Company does not have the budget for a $50. / hour IT, then they must be made to understand the net worth of the experience they are requiring verses their budget and bottom line.
      I do not think any Corporation will be willing to give an IT Union so much as a return call or concern. As long as there is no structure or standard in place. This is what happens when in a world so highly competitive, people refuse to stand together. Damed if you do, Damed if you don’t. With every battle there is victums, and I think everyone is afraid in todays economy they will not measure up to even the basic standards comensorate with their positions. While others who do, and are kept from proving it, suffer. Such is the basis of this discussion. Those who feel they would measure up want a standard and provide protection by those standards for others. For you, I stand. A standard tried true and tested needs to be set for all levels of IT expertise and experience. This of course will not happen over night.
      There is much to learn and planning for a war against those who are already entrenched. I hope you all of have done your homework prior to raising your flag? For as we speak those who are entrenched already, forewarned is forearmed. Let the posturing begin.

    • #3132767

      Inflated

      by wizardb9 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      You have a very inflated view of yourself.What makes you think that your contribution to the bottom line of whatever company you work justifies paying you $50.00/hr. Get real you are living in the dotcom past.

    • #3132761

      Are you crazy? Union?

      by myrdhrin ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Unions kills your chances of moving quickly
      Unions kills your changes or going high as fast as your qualified
      Unions gets the old crapy not evolving but with more seniority guys in front of you no matter what you do because he was there first
      Unions stops really protecting they workforce as soon as they realize they can make more money out if it

      If you’re not up to the field go somewhere else. If you want a union go in a workshop and start building cars (no pun intented on that industry)

    • #3132757

      Unionize IT – Think before you leap

      by 35rjt ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      If you want to watch your co-workers sit around while you produce, go for it!

      Once the Union gets in, you will never get rid of the marginal IT Techs.

      With our current World trade philosophies your job will get shipped off-shore as soon as it can be done cheaper. The Union can’t help.

    • #3132753

      Union now -india later

      by jcritch ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Face the facts:

      Computers are no longer viewed as a mystical wonder, heck 8 year old kids are creating their own web pages.

      50.00 a hour, hmmm has Iowa legalized dope smoking? Oh and you want benefits too?

      Unions are a joke, they allow unproductive scabs to be paid the same amount as those who give 110%, yet the brotherhood/sisterhood protect the scabs if they are fired.

    • #3132747

      State of Kansas

      by michael.nixon ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Well,

      Here in the State of Kansas we have a union for State Employees called Kansas Association of Public Employees. Inside of that union, IT employees have their own bargaining unit. Now for the bad news, as state employees, that doesn’t give us much power, and the average salary is around $17.00 an hour. Now for some areas, out in the sticks, that is good pay. In the cities like Kansas City, Lawrence, Wichita, Topeka, that is not a good hourly pay.

      I look at the other job postings and I see that even where I work, IT pay for the state is about half of what the outside non-state employees get.

      I say, LETS UNIONIZE!!

    • #3132730

      I will never join a union.

      by stan20 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I couldn’t stand the pay cut.

      Want “one size fits all” salaries? Unions are great for the below average. I’ll negotiate my own deal.

      • #3132649

        Pay cut lol yea right

        by ludedude25 ·

        In reply to I will never join a union.

        I belong to a union. I make a Hourly Rate of 27.10hr. My bring home is $754.64 for a standard 40 hour week.

        Dues deducted for that week are a mere $54.20. That is not after bring home, that’s from gross.

        I pay more in county taxes, federal withholding, social security etc.

        Some pay cut for being able to have a group of people help Negotiate my wages and benifits huh.

        • #3102043

          Yes, a pay cut.

          by stan20 ·

          In reply to Pay cut lol yea right

          I charge by what a job is worth. And how much I want to do it. And, I get from $50/hour to $250/hour.

          $27.10 per hour would barely pay my mortgage.

          And, from time to time, I hire people to help out on some jobs. And I pay them more than $27.10 per hour.

        • #3101969

          You pay how much?

          by startech ·

          In reply to Pay cut lol yea right

          That’s some pretty steep insurance to keep your job. Did you know that you’re paying somebody nearly $3000 a year just to keep your job? What was your last pay raise? +$5.00/hr? + $10.00/hr? And how many people are in your union? Multiply that by the number $3000/year and somebody’s making a boat load of money.

          You’d be better off finding a job elsewhere!

    • #3132722

      oh yeah ..great idea….NOT

      by sjwilliams ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Lets take a quick look at recent history and how unions have affected it shall we?

      Steel Unions….Most of the larger mills have gone out of business already, those that haven’t are having real difficulties.

      Auto unions….American auto companies haven’t had a truly good year in decades.

      Why are these industry dieing in the US? UNIONS. Don’t get me wrong I am all for fair wages and safe working environments but Unions have a detrimental effect on business. Here is how. Nearly every union regires companies to maintain health care and pension funds for thier retirees. So what happens, when, after 25 or 30 years of work everyone retires? You fall into a situation where the revenue generated by a company is less than what it ‘owes’ to it’s retirees (sounds a bit like Social Security don’t it?)

      A business can only do that for so long before it’s product is priced beyond the means of its consumers and looks for other alternatives. For example before LTV went under they were buying steel from Asia for cheaper than they themselves could produce it.

      Now, as far as impact on these unionized IT workers. Inovation will die, because you now have to ask Guido if its ok for you to run Cat6 instead of Cat5e. Money would remain unchanged because the contract would be negotiated such that the hourly rate increases but the take home would be about the same, where does the rest of that money go? To Guido. While the take home is the same however your taxes go up, because you earn more.

      There are IT unions out there. Most of us in IT who do the research into those unions find that the bennefits of a union are not as valuable as you might thing.

      Besides they Unions are Socialist anyway.

    • #3132720

      Amen

      by awforrest ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Organized labor is the key to better life for everyone. You could try contacting SEIU – the service employees union – the are actively seeking new members and groups of workers. This will be a tough task though considering the anti union climate created by the Bu$h Crime Family.

    • #3132692

      Unions protect the worthless.

      by techrepublic ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      A company answers to its owners, who have risked their money to run a business. If you’re valuable to that business, you’ll be paid commensurately. If you’re not, you won’t. And that’s fair: you’re not owed a position at a particular wage any more than you’re owed a good price on Pop-Tarts from the grocery store.

      Yes, everybody and their shoe-shine boy got an MCSE in the last decade, and yes, now you’re a dime-a-dozen. Welcome to supply and demand.

      • #3132609

        Unions protect everyone

        by mike_goff ·

        In reply to Unions protect the worthless.

        Its true that a company answers to the owners and that they risked the money. Nobody will deny that. But you also can’t deny that there would be no company at all without its workforce. Most employees understand that if they are not producing to make a company money, the company either shuts down or will no longer need their services. Neither option benefits the worker and most do their part to be an asset to the company. As with any organization with one or more people in it, your going to get your share of “deadwood”. But I’m sure you’ve looked into unions deep enough to know that a contract is ‘negotiated between the owners and the union’. I have yet to see a contract that states that a company is forced to keep its “deadwood”. Every one of them that I have seen states that an employee can be laid off and sent back to the hall or fired for “JUST CAUSE” Without a contract or union representation an employee can be fired without just cause and the NLRB will not back them. While I don’t know for a fact, I assume that you get some sort of perk or bonus as an executive/management position employee. Being a fair minded person I’m sure that you share this bonus/perk with the men and women that do the actual work involved in helping you achieve whatever goals needed to get that bonus/perk. Or do you feel that you are “owed” or have earned that bonus/perk? Perhaps you even negotiated it in your wage package? I don’t know where you have gotten your information about unions, perhaps from the company owners that would love to see every employee work for minimum wage and no overtime or benefits in order to bolster their bottomline profit margin. Is this really supply and demand or just outright greed? Negotiating with a union can benefit both parties. Perhaps the union rep says “my people want $20 an hour” the company can return with the reply “fine, but everyone employed with us must have these certs and they must be updated yearly to remain in our employ” The employee gets a “liveable” wage and benefit package and the employer gets an educated workforce thats happy. Sounds like a win/win situation to me.

        • #3132492

          unions protect themselves first

          by mikefromco ·

          In reply to Unions protect everyone

          Maybe you’ve yet to see a contract that literally protects dead wood, but I’ve seen a few that make it damn near impossible to get rid of anyone. And unions don’t truly negotiate with the owner of a company, unless that company is massive. They negotiate with a group of smaller companies, treating them as one.
          I actually saw a union president turn down a contract for greater than the amount they were asking because it was with one company and the other companies wouldn’t go for it! Who were they watching out for??
          The real problem I see in this thread that people seem to assume that unions set minimum standards. In most cases this is not true; union contracts are absolutes and many prohibit rewarding people beyond the base compensation.
          So be careful what you ask for…

        • #3102040

          Unions protect the below average. maybe.

          by stan20 ·

          In reply to Unions protect everyone

          I could not afford to work for $20/hour. I wouldn’t even return calls from someplace offering twice that. If you are alive you already have a “liveable wage”.

    • #3132691

      It is always going to be about the bottom line

      by tobagoman ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I have been in I.T. for 20 years. The nature of I.T. is that it is a moving target. You become an expert in one area, learning everything to be the best at what you do. The problem is that the technology changes and what you worked so hard to gain is now useless. Companies don’t care about what you did the past 20 years, they want to know what you did today. Unions just take your money for dues, and put you out of a job and piss off the company that pays you. To really make it in I.T. you need to be part of a shop that adopts a structured approach to I.T.
      Example: The ITIL model. http://www.itil.co.uk/

      Most companies in the U.S. don’t want the overhead of ITIL. And do not understant that it will save them in the long run. The result is that young, hungry IT Geeks will work all hours and sacrafice there lives to live for the company. “Been there, done that” When you decide to have a life outside of work, here comes the problem. You cannot demand what you want to be paid, unless you are the best at what you do at that second. It is harder to compete due to the international market being full of well educated young hungery people who are willing to do it for less. I feel your pain and insecurity with this career path! Conclusion: You need to get into a structured shop and stay at the top of your game. It is your life! Control your future. I tell people looking to get into I.T. that it is a cool and fun job. To make it, you need to specialize in one area and become the best at it. Unions were designed to protect people and served a great purpose. They cannot make it in the globalized I.T. industry. We would be the only place following the rules, and business would move out of the U.S. Look at how many big U.S. I.T. companies are foreign owned now.
      Thanks;

      Bob Drake
      GTECH Corporation

    • #3132686

      What a Union REALLY stands for!

      by ludedude25 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      A union is nor has never been a bad thing. Unions were made to help protect the American worker!

      Unions work quite well, yes you can make a lot of money but that comes with Greed. The Main problem with Unions is that the workers have too much say and put themselves into their own predicaments.

      The American Auto industry is a bad example to use on Unions part. When times were good the Union members were the ones that voted on all their wages, perks, etc. After it peaked out there Greed sticks them up there with high wages which they won’t give up. Now comes the non unions Undercutting them big time. Union members could easily vote themselves a pay decrease to be more competitive but will they? NO. Now you have to factor in the Greed of the people own GM, Ford, etc. You think there going to cut there pay to make a car price more competitive for you? NO . Now what does the big time company’s do to cut cost’s. You guessed it. Lay off’s and shut down plants. Now they sneak around and open a bunch of tiny non union plants, Pay their employees what they want and the employee’s now have no say it’s either work here or quit.

      Look at all the foreign countrys that have no say in their wages. Look at what there people make on the hour. Now look at what minimum wage is in the US. There wouldn’t be a minimum wage if it weren’t for unions.

      It all boils down to Greed is what has Torn this Country and it’s business’s apart not unions. I’d like to see someone prove me otherwise.

      • #3132630

        Lets talk about….

        by jabamonte ·

        In reply to What a Union REALLY stands for!

        You wanted a rebuttal, here it is:

        Nissan just changed the way it structures its pension plan for health care. They are a non union shop and the employees voted against bringing a union in. So what did Nissan do, they offered there future retirees (note that current retires still get full health care coverage) an option, an annual stipend to offset purchasing of supplemental health coverage once they have retired and receive medicare. This amounts to 2500.00 annually (This is structured as a health savings account so it is not taxable) or they can pay an increased amount for the employees share of the health care coverage.

        On the surface it appears that Nissan is trying to dodge its commitment to its employees, but health care costs have started to level out. Health care costs rose more than 14% in 2001, 11% in 2003 and 9% in 2005. Nissan has stated that payment to buy supplement coverage is adjustable for inflation. Also, the current cost of buying supplement insurance is less than 2500.00 annually. My source is the business section of the Cleveland Plain Dealer from February 19, 2006.

    • #3132682

      We are letting people in w/out an MCSE?

      by jtakiwi ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      The horror, the madness, to hire someone who actually knows what they are doing vs. one who paid a few grand to pass some tests. I know quite a few MCES’s (and CIS grads for that matter) who aren’t worth $10/hr. to perform IT work without significant experience. So, I guess in a union world that would equal paying a newbie $28/hr. to sweep the shop floor.

      • #3132635

        A Quick word about Certs!

        by nogeekhere ·

        In reply to We are letting people in w/out an MCSE?

        I have been in IT prior to any MS certification appeared in our world. I do not have any certificate and probably never will. Why? Well there are two many paper certified technician, which devalues the whole concept. And too hire only those that have a certificate would be the wrong practice too. I for one would never get hired again and I have over twenty years experience working in IT. There is a balance, we just have to find it.

        • #3132623

          A Quick word about Certs!

          by evisscerator ·

          In reply to A Quick word about Certs!

          I agree with you. I have 24+ years experience (Since 1978)in the IT career fields and feel that Certs are not worth my time and money now. I could come up with a test that I promise no noobie would be able to pass because they lack the knowledge and experience that no CERT program can deliver.

          We have been duped by Microsoft, Novell and other companies who have used the Certifications programs as a means to get “FREE MONEY” and build their CAPITOL for other projects. CERTS were supposed to be an equalizer in the war on College BA’s, BS’s, MA’s and Doctorate programs. It is a test that has failed miserably. You cannot create a CERT and then say its EQUAL TO a college degree …. its not!

          And as I said in an earlier post, the only one’s who profit by the CERT process are Microsoft, Novell and other companies who offer certification programs. Its kinda like Insurance …. a legalized form of Extortion.

        • #3132598

          Ok! One more word!

          by nogeekhere ·

          In reply to A Quick word about Certs!

          A degree and/or certification is a good start, however they will never out weigh good old fashion working experience. Too many companies and IT managers put too much weight on paper qualifications and over look the work experience.

        • #3132579

          Marketing to Clients

          by techiemikee ·

          In reply to Ok! One more word!

          They don’t necessarily provide an accurate means to measure a person’s knowledge on a subject, but they offer a baseline and they are quite useful for a consulting company tries to procure new work by presenting creditials of the professionals working there.

          When you go to restaurant you want the food to not only taste good but you expect that it will look good as well, Certs are like plating a good meal.

        • #3101860

          Don’t judge a book by its cover.

          by startech ·

          In reply to Marketing to Clients

          Of course, I’ve had meals that look great and tasted like SH*T. Which would you rather have?

        • #3272916

          To require one or not too.

          by techiemikee ·

          In reply to Don’t judge a book by its cover.

          Personally I’d like to promote my career on my experience alone, but the reality is that if I supplement my experience and references with Certifications it makes closing the sale easier. It is my job to give the client what they want and charge accordingly. If they want to pay extra for the peace of mind they get from seeing a Cert, why leave money on the table? I take pride in knowing what I know but if 80 hours of study and testing time gets me $5 more an hour that addition $10K (5x 2080) a year will go further than arguing whether employers are rightfully requesting it.

          It is a pain going to test lab, even a bigger pain studying examples of not-so realistic labs, and of course wasting time reading all the marketing propaganda vendors throw in the courseware to brainwash you into thinking their product is the better than the competition (even if it is different than accepted industry standards).

          There are companies out there that could care less whether you have a degree or a certification, but I?ve never heard of a company excluding you from consideration for having them.

        • #3272890

          AMEN!

          by 50kilroy ·

          In reply to A Quick word about Certs!

          You hit it on the head. I have just finished reading in another thread some MSCE flaming me because I know DOS but don’t have MS toilet paper. He evidently could’nt read or perhaps understand the part of my post in which I said that I have been troubleshooting and repairing Windows since Ver 2 through XP, including the server versions.
          Several times, I have had one of the MS “engineers” tell me that I would be unable to attach to a MS network using DOS. I have always taken great pleasure in booting to my FDD and attaching to the network for them.
          Evidently, the certification process begins with a pre-frontal lobotomy.
          UNIONIZE NOW!

        • #3272869

          I thought that was management training.

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to AMEN!

          “Evidently, the certification process begins with a pre-frontal lobotomy.”

        • #3087806

          A Quick word about Certs!

          by van helsing ·

          In reply to A Quick word about Certs!

          I totally agree with you guys!

          Nothing beats good old experiences, if you’ve been a veteran in the industry, you don’t owe it to whatever certification titles you have. Getting that coveted management position is not a product of your certifications. Do these certifications give you the credentials to manage a team properly? Getting certifications is no longer a good basis in hiring people at this level.

          Introduce these so-called “certs geeks” in a complex corporate environment for just a few weeks weeks and then try asking them how much sleep they get since their first day… i believe most of them will give you the same answers as that of the newbies without certs.

          Get real… Man does not live on Certs alone, but from every bit of good and bad experiences he was exposed to for every years of service he has.

        • #3101995

          CERTs in, brains out

          by bitswapper ·

          In reply to A Quick word about Certs!

          If you’re going to work someplace, and the first thing they ask is if you have CERT_XYZ, consider that a mark against that employer. Try to talk directly to the person who manages the area you’re looking to work in. You may be able to tell the degree of cluefullness present. If it seems too low, then they’ll likely outsource in the future, or get carried away with their desire to fill the ranks with people carrying certifications. Oh, and by the way, MCSE stands for *Musn’t *Configure *Servers *Ever.

    • #3132679

      Unionize

      by mike_goff ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I am the Vice President of a small Plumbers and Pipefitters Local Union. I also help take care of our small LAN when I am lucky enough to work in town. While I can’t claim to have the education that most of you have, I have taken online courses, bought several hundreds of dollars worth of books, spent countless hours online on tech sites and get tech newsletters via email almost daily. I mention this to let you know that I have at least a basic idea what you have to go through. The education, which doesn’t stop when you graduate since technologies advance every day. You have to learn and advance with it or fall to the wayside. Having to deal with clients and their employees, some of which are clueless or “hack and wackers” that do more damage than good, and its your job to fix their screw ups. The sometimes convoluted hours trying to save someones business when their system does a crash and burn and they “forgot” to backup for a week or two. The point I’m trying to get at is…. What is your education worth? What is your ablility to save their company worth? What is your ability to create, deploy and maintain a streamlined system that saves them thousands of dollars a year or more worth? If left to corporate america everyone would work for minimum wage or less. I feel that you should unite, negotiate a contract and benefit package and have a say in your future in the workplace. If you don’t band together it will soon get to the point that you’ll see the walmart way of thinking hit you hard too….”yeah I know you’ve been doing this for only $15.00 an hour but I need you to take less” “Billy Bob putertech said he’ll do it for $14.50, so if you’ll take $14.00 I’ll keep you”….. Before it gets to the point that you start cutting each others throats to get or keep work maybe you should think about uniting for the overall good of everyone involved. Better to have a level playing field, at least until they figure out how to outsource your “hands on” work.

    • #3132678

      UNIONIZE….I Agree

      by alisak20009 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Hello,

      I am probably shooting myself in the foot with this answer but I must say that I agree. The part where I shoot myself in the foot is the fact that I work for the Geek Squad which is owned by Best Buy. I earn an hourly rate of less than $20 an hour which is a rip off. I should be earning at least $25 to $30 an hour. I don’t have any certifications (because I am working on getting treated for ADD and I can’t get through a text book). I started as an Admin. Asst. (glorified name for a secretary) and when I lost that job I found there were no AA jobs in my area paying what level I was at. I did have computer repair skills and went running to my local GS when I heard they were finally in BB. So, by your standards I should be blacked out of IT not working in it. But if there were a union I would be first in line to join it as there is strength in numbers. The down side is that if there were a strike of any sort the corporations would just hire some competent non-certs to take our places at a severely reduced rate of pay. It is a big world out there and we are but goldfish in the ocean.

    • #3132660

      Sad to say it won’t help

      by still_rockin ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Being in a union didn’t help the Air Traffic Controllers did it? (Maybe you’re too young to remember, gotta go back to the 80’s…) They just all got fired by no less than the President of the United States. It pains me to say that there are serious problems with business/economic mindset/conduct in this country which have only been spiraling us down further and further over the last 25 years, with no end in sight…

      • #3132636

        Are you willing to pay the price?

        by michaelpo ·

        In reply to Sad to say it won’t help

        Assuming you could organize and affiliate for strength, get past the right to work states to get sufficient numbers to support negotiations, then figure out how to stop wholesale outsouring, are you personally willing to pay the price?

        This battle would be extremely hard fought. How may paydays will you go without? Will you give up your career, if the job action fails? Will you walk out to support a slacker who carries a union card? Are you OK with someone who is less competent making more than you because they started before you?

        It has happened to highly skilled workers who did not think they could be replaced. I am a member of the PATCO graduating class of 1981 as well and I remember the cost.

        I make more money, have better benefits and working conditions now than I ever did in any of my Union supported jobs. I will negotiate for myself.

    • #3132656

      Unionize When Necessary to Level the Playing Field

      by noo-yawker ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      A lot of emotion surfaces when the idea of unionization is discussed. It’s important to reflect on the “what” and the “why” that cause labor unions to be considered in the first place. While workers create labor unions it’s working conditions that create the need for unions.

      When individual workers are unable to bargain effectively with their employer about the terms of their employment then they have a need to form a union so they can bargain collectively. Typically this happens when a particular labor supply is greater than its demand. It doesn’t matter whether that worker is a coal miner, textile worker, truck driver, ER physician, or IT professional.

      IT workers who have been around for about 10 years have seen the circumstances of their larger work environments change greatly. There are more workers in the available pool, domestically and internationally; many former specialized skills have been commodified; the way work is done enables decentralized development; and the overall trend towards mergers and acquisitions have reduced the number of available jobs. The accelerated growth in IT during the period from the 1970s through the 1990s has tapered off. This means there are more people but fewer jobs.

      The conflict is between workers, who believe that they should not be treated as a commodity and their past loyalty means they do not deserve to be treated as such, and employers who are looking at current and future P&L and see salary and benefits as an expense that must be reduced as much as possible.

      In many cases, unfortunately, both employer and employees become so hardened in their own positions that they lose the ability to communicate and compromise. This takes the focus away from the important goal of maintaining the viability and growth of the enterprise itself as a source of jobs which also has social responsibilities to the workers who help it grow and thrive.

      One can’t blame unions for the failure of a business segment. Detroit isn’t selling cars because of unions; it is not selling cars because management failed to offer well-made cars that potential customers would want to buy while their competitors have succeeded because they understand their market better. The cost of labor is not the major issue in the automotive industry but is an easier issue on which to cast blame than management having to find fault with itself.

      • #3132612

        I agree well almost…

        by jabamonte ·

        In reply to Unionize When Necessary to Level the Playing Field

        Going back to the automotive world, unions are not the scapegoat, but neither is the car company. Both carry a share of the problem and blame. Unions became so powerful, that car companies stopped running themselves and the union started running the companies. Unions do have the problem of keeping lack luster people because of senority. Car companies have the problem of keeping their head in the sand and not adjusting to the needs/wants/desires of the consumer. Car companies also suffer from arrogance, in that for so many years they had a captive consumer who did not have any real choice other than Curly, Mo, or Larry (collectively the Big 3).

        Is there a solution? Sure there is! Are we willing to make the necessary sacrifices to reach the solution? No not yet, but I feel we will get to that point.

        Unions are not evil, but come very close. The IT world changes way to often for a union to be a viable solution.

    • #3132648

      To Unionize IT or Not To Unionize IT

      by evisscerator ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      You pose a great question, but there is plenty of recent events that would prevent this idea from reachng fruition. Take a very long hard look at FORD Motor Co and General Motors. The fact that they are now closing plants in North America and laying off 30,000 workers is a solid indication that they are now “UNION BUSTING”. This is something that they have been wanting to do for a very long time. I must say I agree with their view of the matter …. Cars cost too dang much. I just bought a new car and paid 1/2 of what I paid for my house for it (that is ridiculous).

      As far as Unionizing IT, I would rather see a movement to start an “Apprenticeship” based IT world than one dominated by uncertifiable CERTIFICATION standards that we now have. The only people who “PROFIT” from “Certifications” are Microsoft, Novell, Red Hat and others. The time has come to steal their thunder and start making IT a bit harder to get into. We need to cut out the cancerous “Neighborhood Wanna Be Computer Guru’s” who end up screwing up more than they fix. These closet computer hacks need real jobs and stop profiting at the expense of other people doing legitimate business.

      …. I relenquish my SoapBox to someone else now ….

    • #3132638

      I second that motion

      by styehimba ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      You have my vote on that. I am tired of all these so called wannabes’ coming into the IT field underbidding those of us that have been here for 2 decades at least. It is maddening. However, this is the mentality that people have these days. However, they don’t understand that they will get what they pay for………… So I say Unionize this mother and let’s get paid what we are worth and make all those who think they know study as we did and get certified like we did and then just like everything else, start at the bottom and work and prove their way up.

    • #3132637

      Unionize IT Now!

      by gbennett ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Get real… unions will be the death of America. Union people never studied economics and don’t have a clue about the concepts of supply and demand. Smoking dope instead.

    • #3132634

      Where do I sign up?

      by doug ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I can see a place for this, but it would take some serious organizational work.

    • #3132621

      Go Union

      by wbblack1 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I work for Verizon. I?m a telecom/IT tech and a member of IBEW local 827. We have a good contract and job security. The company just took the pensions away from the non-union ?management? folks. They have no recourse. We still have ours — at least until our next contract — but we have collective bargaining and the right to fight for our wages and benefits. Last year the top 5 executive made almost $58 million at Verizon and they pillaged the pension of 30- year employees.

      Workers in companies that have unions make 25 to 30 percent more than non-union companies in the same industry. Of course this means that management folks get paid more also. All workers benefit from a union. Unions desperately need to grow and IT would be a great place to start. Techs of the world unite.

    • #3132616

      We blew it…

      by neocarpetbagger ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      It’s too late. We accepted the high pay, stock options, unpaid overtime, and flagrant H1-B violations over the years. We had the opportunity and capacity to shut down IT production all over the country when this job hemorrhage started and yet we did not.

      If we really want to make a difference now, we need to organize the offshore IT worker force so they can preserve their new-found way of life.

      You want fries with that?

      – LPJ

      • #3101854

        Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

        by whistl3r ·

        In reply to We blew it…

        Never too late. People who believe this are either too lazy or just have no care in the world.

        It is illegal to fully outsource your IT / IS department’s offshore, which is why corporations split departments in half (half american workforce and the other offshore).

    • #3132613

      Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

      by spadata ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      you want to unionize (the havens of total incompetents) I suggest first you join the Socialist Workers Party, the American Communist Party, MoveOn.org, and the Democrat Party.

      Once you have sworn total allegiance to your MASTERS there, you can attempt to overthrow the Constitutional representative republic of the United States of America.

      As the heroes of socialist thought have stated …

      The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of “liberalism,” they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. — Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party

      “We cannot expect the Americans to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of Socialism, until they suddenly awake to find they have Communism.” — Nikita Kruschev, USSR

      • #3132571

        may be too extreme

        by jle ·

        In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

        Unionize the whole IT field may be a little bit too extreme. If you just finish training and have no experience, you can’t charge $50/hour. Even when you charge $12/hour and no one wants to hire you. Sometimes you offer to do for free, and people still say no. Getting experience at the beginning is hard.

        However, I think there should be some sort of union either within a company or a more specific field such as government contractor union. My salary is totally at the mercy of my project manager. My salary is a lot lower than other members in my team because I was not a very good negotiator even though my skills are higher than some. Now to me that is unfair, I think your salary should not depend on your ability to negotiate. It should depend on your skills. So a union would help in this case.

    • #3132597

      Nullified by Globalization

      by fractalzoom ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Unfortunately, this Eugene Debs, 1920’s-era call for all IT workers to swarm to the ramparts is nullified by the new realities of globalization and offshoring. There is a very large IT workforce available in places like India that would eagerly do your job for less money and without unions — to make a play for unionization of IT would be to push management into the arms of a less-expensive outsourced, offshored option.

      as Frieman says in his book, “The world is flat.” This means that your notion of IT as the next great labor movement is based on sadly obsolete notions of the workforce, like whip-and-buggy manufacturers uniting to retake the transportation system.

    • #3132587

      Lets do it

      by box_15 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Its not about hard work at all. We all put in more than our share to keep things running. The only way we are going to survive is to unionize.

    • #3132584

      U.S.S.R

      by simonjester ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Remember them?
      What does the “U” stand for?
      “power to run this world!”?
      Perhaps you meant to say;”Hold it hostage!”

      Shirkers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your brains!

      • #3103064

        U.S.A. Remember them…

        by spitfed ·

        In reply to U.S.S.R

        …we will, when it’s hegemony finally self-destructs.

        From a different perspective, all of what SimonJester says can be equally applied to the U.S.A.

        It can be argued that the USA is still (only just though) holding the world to “hostage” – in an economic and military sense.

        Unions may put (have put) the final nail in the coffin of US manufacturing, but the body inside is dead due to lack of firm trade barriers, minimal import tariffs and a ‘bend-over-backwards’ attitude of the US government towards developmental countries such as those in South-Asia.

        The health of most of the world’s economies now rest upon the ability of the average US citizen being able to spend and keep on consuming cheap imports (silicon-based products, steel, autos, etc).

        At this stage, intoduction of new unions would probably push most of the remaining US businesses over the edge or over the horizon into other countries.

        Shirkers of the world, wail with the rest of us when it all comes crashing down.

    • #3132582

      Unionize IT Now!

      by rmyers ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Oh I cans see there is the diverse interest in being part of large union. Unions are more than just pay pushers. I am a large anti-union person, but believe they do have a purpose in building 2nd and 3rd world economies. The conditons in Asia and other countries that exploit workers need a unified front to lobby better benefits, working conditions, hours, etc. Most IT people I work with each day typically work in environmentally controlled offices or computer rooms. Drive to work in good cars. Make a pretty decent living. Most have medical benefits, are offered retirement benefits, have two weeks or more of vacation each year. Well, what do you expect the Union is going to do for these guys, negotiate more money, come on, dudes and duddettes!

      Before you brandish the flag and go unionizing read the stories of GM and Ford. How is the Union Protecting their jobs now? Did it stop the 30k+ of people that will lose their jobs? and the communities, what about them?

      America has always been the land of opportunity where people can mover freely between jobs to better themselves, move about the country finding better cities or places to live. If you don’t like the hours or the pay or the people you work with, YOU have an OPPORTUNITY TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! DO IT!

    • #3132566

      Good Call….

      by yinbig ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      It’s because Microsoft has trained way too many MCSE’s and/or we are letting people into the industry without MCSE’s????

      My Degree in Computer Scienece with Honours blows an MCSE out the water. Takes 5 Years to get a Honours Degree, 3 weeks an MCSE.

    • #3132563

      Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

      by donengene ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      The best thing a union can do is to lobby congress against sending jobs over seas.

      I was recently thinking about taking some classes on ERP so that I could get a better paying job. My IT instructor told me the best place to do that kind of work is in India. I’m not planning on moving to india anytime soon to get training. We need to keep the jobs and work here. There are plenty of places that can support a union.

      I belong to an educational institution which has a union but it does little or nothing to protect IT workers,t hey really only protect instructors/faculty. We need out own representation. I have an MCSE 2003 and 9+ years of expereience and am still finding it hard to find jobs that pay over $30,000 when the average is somewhere around $65,000. Most of the jobs out there I am over qualified for so I’m not even considered even if it pays more than my current possition. I am thinking about joining a temp agency just so that I get paid what I’m worth and have someone that is working to get me the pay I deserve.

    • #3132560

      Protection/Job Security

      by budziaszek ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Hi All,

      A Union across the IT industry is a good idea for many reasons which include Seniority/Job Security for these employees. Not to mention being the scapegoat for Poor Management. I worked at IBM Global for approx. 10 Yrs. where I saw the worst work conditions. Was fired after being harrassed by a Quebec Seperatist and subsequently fired while I had stress leave papers in hand. I settled at the Normes de travail (workers rights in Quebec). To this day they have violated that agreement and I have no recourse, My own lawyer lied to the Quebec bar. I still have not found work in my profession. I do not wish to see anyone go through what I have by believing in a Company and their Policies and that the Government will protect these rights as well as your civil rights atleast here in Quebec.
      So by all means Unionize and Unionize NOW! Unions will ensure that as a senior your the last to be cut vs. here’s your package (If applicable) thanks for the last 10 yrs of your life sorry we’re not letting you retire from our company cause it’s cheaper to let you go and hire a paper cert.

    • #3132541

      re to unionize

      by ruffnredy ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I understand your concerns….I work for a major airline and I think that I can speak from experience about how a union works or supposed to work. Unions are supposed to protect wages and benefits, but in the last 20 years I have been on my job, it has been all about hiring as many people as possible and keeping them on the payroll because it(the more, the merrier theory) seems to be the style of business. Remember this, “Unions are a business; no more no less” before you unionize study what has happened to the airlines and auto workers. I am here because I took a hell of a paycut(and benefit reduction) to keep everyone employed and now we are doing more work for less pay with too many people (Management and Union Rep) standing around reaping the rewards from our (the Union membership’s)hard work. I don’t want to dampen your hope I want you to make a fully informed decision. Good Luck!

    • #3132536

      Try This Experiment & See What Happens

      by contradancer ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Wages, certification standards, healthcare, retirement plans, visas and offshoring are just a few of the issues we all care about. Instead of endlessly debating the value of working together on our common causes, why not try creating a powerful tech union and see where it leads?

      If we join together and build a movement that stands for our concerns, we can control the actions that movement takes. Only by standing together can we be an equal negotiating partner with management for our concerns.

      In 2001, WashTech launched TechsUnite as a national face for high-tech worker organizing. By joining for just $11.00 a month, or $120.00 a year, you will help build the movement and build our voice.

      Washtech has a proven track record of success. For more information, see http://www.washtech.org/

    • #3132529

      Why Look at the Auto industry.

      by stechipp05 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Unions were good back in the day. With other countries threatning our finacial well being here, unionizing would further put us in the hole. I think the only reason they advertise jobs at $12 an hour here is because they know they can easily hire someone in India for half that price. Unions in the auto industry has kept the prices of vehicles rising everyday so they can make their profit margin. As more and more jobs go overseas and the cost of manufacturing these vehicles go lower and lower, we the consumer still have to pay the inflated price so the automakers can have a bigger profit. I believe if we started crying “We want a Union, none of us may ever find a job unless we moveed to India.”

    • #3132517

      Unionize anything these days? GOOD LUCK!

      by ojeda ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      not gonna happen with republicans running the show – they’re union busters – good luck – hahahahahahahahahaha

    • #3132498

      No Way

      by dabinns ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I do not beleive that people working for the government should be in a union……

    • #3132496

      Unionize, I strongly suggest that you rethink your position!

      by bg6638 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      You don’t recognize the laws of supply and demand. If you think $12/hr for a lan tech is bad, how about $9/hr for a Help Desk I position where the employer wanted a Master’s, virtually every cert offered by Citrix, Cisco, Msoft, and Redhat AND 5 yrs exp? And you think that forming an IT union will help? I really don’t think so. You are fighting changing business evolution. Consider what unions have done for me: three of the last four of my past employers *closed* as a direct result of strikes!

    • #3132494

      go ahead. i got three words for ya: Right To Work

      by crabbyabby86 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I’ll just be honest: I don’t like the idea of unionizing IT. For a lot of the same reasons already posted–and the limiting of innovation is right at the top of the list. What is IT if it is not innovative?

      But I’m not too worried. Go ahead and create your wonderful union and hope it saves your ass. I’m going to work. Almost half the states in this country are Right to Work States, and those of us who are NOT going to join your fantabulous union are going to be just fine, even if your idea actually works.

    • #3132490

      Unionization? Not always the best idea

      by robinson_hawks ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Unionizing has its perks, higher wages, and a unified voice. The dillema is that it ultimately limits the total number of employees a company can hire. Simply put, $50 an hour would be fantastic but you can get entry level CS employees fresh out of top tier engineering programs who will jump on $25 an hour. There are far too many individuals willing to take lower wages given the limited amount of available work (.. and dont get my started on outsourcing.. the suits seem to like it, but it is not the magical solution). Jacking up the wages would simply force a smaller number of employees to bear a greater amount of work. In addition it costs money to run a union. Your $50 an hour would not be representative after you pay your union dues. The final straw that will inhibit unionization is the lack of a finite credentialling system. You can get certified in JAVA, Novell, Ab Initio.. you name it. Certifications are a dime a dozen at this point in time. Healthcare and other fields requiring licensure have a much clearer line in terms of defining who is qualified to provide services. Right now the IT profession lacks the demand for employees or a industry wide structured credentialling system. It is difficult to have a unified voice when the IT profession itself if such a diverse mosaic of skilled professionals.

    • #3132478

      Unionize IT -agreed

      by phildwish ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Too many agencies control the basic IT job function and are ripping off the worker, making a huge profit at the expense (lower wages) of the worker. Most workers are to chicken-chit to speak up for fear of no job, or loss of a job, or being black-balled (black-listed) agency-wide. At this point it is time that we IT workers collectively join together to either remove agency-dominance, or somehow control the abuses without severe monetary and career wise black listing as a penalty. The bottom line is that people in IT want to work unencumbered by reckless profiteers and for a reasonable living wage.

    • #3102091

      Ya think ???

      by dusterman ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      The companies will merely do to you , what they have been dreaming of doing to the unions for years .
      Massive layoffs ………cry wolf ……… write off some of the most inventive bookkeeping ever thought up [ that came from a government employee that I flew with ] ………
      We all asked for easier , more reliable components …… we got what we asked for …. da* it !
      Was offer a job , when they decided they wanted to cut expenses , offered …….. ready $11.30 an hour ……. here in Denver …… why ?
      Because they can ……… my competitors [sp] have seen to that here in the Denver market !
      We all understood that there were over 3K new unemployed it folks here ……… what we didn’t expect was …. them to run out of money and then become independent business morons , that priced the market down to $35/hr billable ……..
      When I try to explain that these “newbie’s” can’t even run their service vehicle for that hardly …. the customer doesn’t care ……..
      They don’t care until they get someone who flubs it up and then walks away , still demanding to be paid ……. just like when they were an employee ! .
      Well , my friend ……. try to hang on a little longer ….. and do what I did ……. quit giving away your “secret tools” …… we’ve all done it but now it’s time to stop !
      A short story ………
      My small office , all around computer ,printer and floor sweeper employee calls ……
      Mike , he says , they just laid me off …. I did find some work down the hall [ my customer ] they said that their regular guy charges too much and would I fix a printer that he said was junk for cheap ?
      I say , well Bob here is the way it is ….. I am that person that you referred to and to make a livable income I have to be able to bill @ $70.00/hr to cover all the “stupid time” …..and I have that ever present nasty ole guvment agency – the tax man breathing down my neck …. so when you do the work for $10.00/hr you really hurt those who don’t have the luxury of unemployment or welfare to subsidize [sp] our income !
      He then says …….. you don’t understand “buddy” I need your expertise and no one else will help me ……. and I have got a promise to fulfill here ……
      Well says I , Bob ……. you will need to become an apprentice to someone or go to school to learn about these things and by then the wages should be back up to where an existing business like mine is back to making money and then I won’t mind giving you that “priceless” free advice 🙂
      .
      .
      Hello , hello Bob are you there ….. bzzzzzzz

    • #3102083

      A Reply to: “American Message Boards”

      by startech ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      …And the stench from your country is well noted!

      But, right or wrong, DaveW has the right to say anything he damned well pleases because America protected that right for him to do so. As it has for anyone on this Message board to speak his or her mind, or to unionize or not. Yes, even you.

      I wonder if you would have the same sentiment 50+ years ago?

      In the meantime, we’ll just spray some air freshner in your genral direction — you seem to need it.

    • #3102076

      We should not look to others four our security or financial well being

      by problemslayer ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      When many labor unions got their start during the ensuing years of the industrial revolution, their purpose and need were very clear. Many factories provide horrid working conditions, long hours (with no extra compensation) and low pay. Since that time however there have been many changes in the world, the economy and in the realm of labor laws.

      Labor unions have become politically charged entities more concerned with garnering power in the political arena than in truly helping their constituents. And look at the results they are currently getting. Labor unions have almost ruined GM and Ford is not far behind. Did you know that GM spends more on the insurance plans for its employees than it does on making cars??!

      And where are all those jobs going from the Ford and GM layoffs? Overseas of course, as people buy more and more foreign cars because they are cheaper and more reliable. It is clear to me that unions are not the way to go if we want to prosper in our field.

      Too often we as human being want someone else to guarantee our prosperity, be it the government or trade unions. We have to take responsibility for ourselves and our own prosperity and not depend upon others to do it for us.

      • #3102065

        Will all the whiners please stand up and unionize?

        by startech ·

        In reply to We should not look to others four our security or financial well being

        Well said, ProblemSlayer!

        See my other post “I don’t need a union to speak for me — I speak for myself.”

        We don’t need a union. The only one’s that do are those that can’t speak up for themselves nor have the experience to back up their pay “wishes!”

        Come on! Give me a break. Stop relying on others to do what you should be doing for yourself. We’ve got enough lazyness and welfare. We don’t unions to promote even more.

        If you don’t have the experience to demand the wages you want, then suck it up, and go learn some more and show’em your worth it. Otherwise, go learn to be a forklift operator — how hard can that be — then you can have your union life.

      • #3102031

        Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

        by pickleman ·

        In reply to We should not look to others four our security or financial well being

        > Labor unions have almost ruined GM and Ford is not far behind.

        Exactly right.
        GM would still be the number one car manufacturer in the world if their “unions” hadn’t destroyed the company.

        A couple months ago when they were announcing those massive layoffs, they were saying on the news that a typical worker on the assembly line at Ford or GM makes $65,000 per year. I nearly fell off my chair.

        Are you f*cking kidding me!? They’re paying these people $65K per year to basically stand there, wait for the robots to bring things to them, and then all they do is essentially push them into place. I mean, come on…is it any wonder why the American car industry has gone into the toilet? And of course, who can we thank for those $65K salaries? You think GM wants to pay these uneducated, unskilled people that kind of money to stand there and push stuff around? No, of course they don’t. But that’s what the unions demand…so that’s what GM has to give.

        Way to go Unions!
        Keep it up, and soon you won’t even HAVE a GM plant or Ford plant left in North America in which to do all your whining and bitching.

        • #3102010

          A tale of 5 plants

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          Roughly within 100 miles of downtown Toronto, we have 5 major auto manufacturing plants; GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and Honda.

          The first three are unionized. The last 2 are not. Because we have an open labour market, all three pay fairly comparable wages and benefits. All of the plants are safe to work in. But if you polled the workers, if they were honest, most of the workers would prefer to work in the non-union plant, and it shows in the number of applications that come up when a plant undergoes expansion.

          Ask yourself why. The unionized plants have a troubled management/labour history, while the non-unionized plants are trouble free. The non-unionized plants are not under the threat of strike every few years. They all produce decent cars.

          James

        • #3102009

          A tale of 5 plants

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          Roughly within 100 miles of downtown Toronto, we have 5 major auto manufacturing plants; GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and Honda.

          The first three are unionized. The last 2 are not. Because we have an open labour market, all three pay fairly comparable wages and benefits. All of the plants are safe to work in. But if you polled the workers, if they were honest, most of the workers would prefer to work in the non-union plant, and it shows in the number of applications that come up when a plant undergoes expansion.

          Ask yourself why. The unionized plants have a troubled management/labour history, while the non-unionized plants are trouble free. The non-unionized plants are not under the threat of strike every few years. They all produce decent cars.

          James

        • #3101961

          Here IT is in a Nutshell

          by evisscerator ·

          In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          People don’t realize that GM/FORD Union Employee’s make a minimum of $45.00 per hour for the jobs they do, but those costs are passed on to all of us who aren’t UNION by making us pay 1/3 more in the price of a cheaply made automobile.

          What kills me is the TeleCommunications Union (SWBELL, AT&T, MCI, VERIZON, and more)also have lost many jobs all the while the CEO’s of these corporations make astoundingly huge BONUS’s …. SWBELL CEO made a $10 Million dollar bonus last year, that YOU and I paid for and that UNIONS lost employee’s over.

          The Days of the UNION are gone and over …. Their Jobs are outsourced to 3rd world countries because the COST of their LABOR is cheaper.

          Perhaps if we didn’t want so much for pay, and price of our cost of living went down 33% or more, it might equal out. But, where most of the companies profits go is toward the upper management for the little work those people do.

          Honestly, for every CEO out there, there are at least 3 other people making him look good by doing their job (he’s given them his work to do).

      • #3076604

        What ?

        by it survivor ·

        In reply to We should not look to others four our security or financial well being

        Remember that the next time your company calls your IT group into a meeting and says OH by the way you’ve been outsourced. Good Luck.

    • #3102021

      MCSE’s are for retards…

      by techniquephreak ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I have one, just because I fell for the hype… But an MCSE is a useless cert that the majority of folks don’t give a rats ass about. And I’m in Seattle. A monkey could get an MCSE.

      I don’t even put weight in the Cisco certs…

      These buggers who go to some tech school and get certified and think that makes them a net guru are the problem…

      If I were forced to work for $50, I would be taking a major pay cut. Unions work for some industries, but I really don’t think we’re the right one. Go back to the drawing board and come up with some compelling reasons… Then I might reconsider.

      • #3087903

        MCSE’s are for mediocre IT pros

        by absolutely ·

        In reply to MCSE’s are for retards…

        Unions are for retards!

      • #3286593

        Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

        by support#netropole.com ·

        In reply to MCSE’s are for retards…

        the reason is,
        microsoft and many other big companies are pushing to increase 6 year work visas from 65,000 to 115,000. that means lower wages for americans and less jobs for qualified IT workers.

    • #3102000

      Unionize IT

      by vlpresher ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Not on your life. The day of the union is over. The focus of the union now is how can we increase the fee’s to our members so the union officals can get a big raise.

      Unions force companies to pay pay administrative staff salaries way out of line with what it take sto do the work. Example: 125k a year for walking around a loading dock writing bar code #’s. This is one reason why companies have layoff and why prices of goods skyrocket.

      Union’s today are the highway robbers of yesterday.

    • #3101998

      My experience is not favorable towards unions

      by frankmon ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I have been involved with 4 different unions during my career and I have to say that not once did I get any real benefit from them. Let me step back a bit and look into the history of organized labor a bit. The following is very simplified but I don’t think anybody wants to read a treatise on the labor movement in America ;).

      In the early 20th century, companies were under no rules or laws that kept working hours to a minimum, a person could be fired because the foreman didn’t “like” them, there was no minimum work age, and many other insufferable conditions existed. On the other hand unskilled workers were holding down positions that they were unqualified for, possibly creating dangerous conditions.

      At some point some workers decided to organize in order to force owners to provide a fair wage, decent working conditions and proper equipment (this is somewhat simplified but you get the point). The organizers realized they needed to provide something from their end so they made sure that if someone was a journeyman level in their trade that they could be trusted to perform their tasks well with fewer errors.

      So, after many violent confrontations and many murders and threats, unions came to be. When they first started out they were good. They kept labor management somewhat fair and improved wages and benefits. In turn the unions promised that they would provide skilled workers.

      This all worked out for a while even going so far as to making some union rules federal law so even non-union workers began to be given fair conditions. There were always contradictions to this but for the most part the workplace was a much better place to be in by the 1940’s then they were at the turn of the century.

      By the late 40’s and 50’s most of the union rules were now federal labor laws making the unions somewhat anachronistic. Unions then shifted their focus and began promising that a union worker would be loyal and well skilled. In effect they were trying to operate more like guilds than unions.

      Then the greed set in. Union management felt that lining their own pockets was a far better thing to do than protect the labor force. If a union decided they didn’t like someone because they spoke out against their “brothers” (in reality the person was speaking out against unfair union rules) they could be fired (or worse) with impunity.

      The unions then started practicing cronyism and nepotism to the nth degree. To this day there are some very strong unions that you pretty much have to have a stamp on your birth certificate in order to ever become a member. This practice began to decay the supposed skill level of the workers. Men and Women who were very skilled were denied membership because if they were too good, they would make the other members look bad. with laws now keeping wages and conditions somewhat fair (not always, but better than back in 1900) the only thing the unions could provide was a highly skilled workforce and with cronyism and nepotism that was even going away.

      These practices not only lock out potential skilled workers but can cause dangerous conditions as well. In one firm I worked at, the master electrician was the brother of the union president. He was also a heroin addict, alcoholic, and semi-illiterate. He cause 4 accidents that I know of that hurt a total of 13 people. Yet he kept his job because the union protected him.

      That’s where organized labor is now. They have, for the most part, outlived their original purpose and have refused to change with the times. I’ll get into what unions should be doing now a bit later.
      During my career (which is in the entertainment field) I have been involved with 4 different unions and each one left me feeling that my needs were not met (or even considered) as the union management is now more concerned with keeping their personal bank accounts fat.

      Some of my experience with unions include- being reprimanded for “sweating” because I was working too hard. Working too fast because I made the rest of the crew look bad. I was fined for picking up something that was 6′ long without help; it was a piece of 1×3 pine which weighed < 4.5lbs. I was also fined for trying to negotiate my own wage rater than go through the union. Then there were the other "things". Rampant alcoholism. You were a "man" if you went to lunch and had 3 beers and 2 shots. Crystal meth usage was almost required in order to try and function while drunk. Anyone who complained about it or did any whistle blowing were soon let go or laid off. Anyhow the above are some of the more egregious activities that organized labor is involved in today and I believe in order to survive, they need to reinvent themselves. They need to be more like a guild. I would love to see unions become guilds where you have to have a certain amount of education (say an A.A. degree) with plenty of education in your chosen feild. I would love to see these guildmembers not be forced to use feather bedding(where more people are on the job than needed) and can aslo negotiate their own wage and benefits. But it should not be easy to get into the giuld just because you know somebody. It should be based on your skill level and experience so that a comapny can hire a guild member and know they are getting the best in their field, not some alcoholic who can barely write hs /her own name. Once I moved into "scab" shops I made more money, had better benefits, and what would have been my dues are now going into a mutual fund. Because of my skill level, I have never been laid off as I strive to make myself a valuable employee. I spend at leat 3 months a year taking classes to expand my knowledge. Anyhow, like I said the above is from my own experience and there are some folks who love the union system as it exists. The unions have a choice, evolve or stagnate. I feel that if they continue to stagnate then they will be forced out of the workplace eventually leading back to the early 20th century practice of every person for themselves.

      • #3101406

        P.S.

        by frankmon ·

        In reply to My experience is not favorable towards unions

        I guess my education is lacking somewhat in grammer and spelling. Sorry, I was in a hurry.

        I want to sum up by saying that I’m not anti-union in the least. I am vehemently anti-stupidity with regards to organized labor and believe that if the unions get their act together and join the rest of us in the 21st century they could be a good thing.

        As they exist now though, they are holding labor back and giving management a good excuse to break them rather than work with them.

        The AMA comments I’ve read do make some sense. That org acts like a guild. The mebers all have to be educated and “certified” and continued education, while not mandated, is rewarded. The last time I had something really wrong with my health, I sought out the physician with the most initials after their name (that is somewhat glib as I did research further).

        There is no reason that a model based on the AMA could not be created for the IT field and it should.

      • #3102702

        Interesting Union history

        by jaredh ·

        In reply to My experience is not favorable towards unions

        I found your history of unions very interesting and informative.
        Here are the reasons that I am “unhappy” in my IT job:
        1) unrealistic expectations regarding hours & pay.
        I currently work in public education. Is the pay great? Heavens no! But it is enough to support my family. That is what really matters. But when all of these expectations of unrealistic deadlines and providing solutions with little or no resources are thrown on my shoulders, I would love to just walk away because it is “unfair”.
        I currently work 40 hours a week. If a project is left undone, then oh well because I am not paid to get the job done just put in my time. Now that itself is not bad but I take pride in my work and I want to do it right, but I am not given the resources to do it right. If Unions could make this happen, then I am all for it.
        However, I saw a IT working who joined a union and it took over a year to get him fired! This guy was getting complaints from all of his customers & from fellow employees. He was constantly late he even stole, yes stole computer parts. The last I heard was that stealing is a crime. He should have been terminated right then for committing a cime against his employer. But no, the Union protected his sorry butt. If this is what Union’s do, then forget it.
        If they do both, then what is the greater good? Fighting for fairness, or over doing it and creating unfairness?

    • #3101989

      Yeah, let’s price ourselves out of business…

      by rowdydave ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I didn’t expect to get rich when I took an IT job. I make a living and pay my bills. That’s what I expect. If I’m not satisfied with what I get from my employer, I can look elsewhere for employment or go into business for myself. I don’t need a union telling me, or my employer, what to do.

      Unions were formed when workers were being abused, both mentally and physically, in sweatshops and labor mills. With a few fringe, illegal exceptions, no one is being abused today. However, many are crying that “the man” doesn’t pay them enough for what they do. Did you expect to get rich working for someone else? Get a clue.

      With the exception of some high-ranking executives, no one who is an ’employee’ is going to get rich. That’s just the way it works. It’s possible for an ’employee’ to get there, but the opportunities are few and far between. The more quickly you realize that, the more quickly you can prepare yourself to make the tough choices to either accept what you’ve chosen, or choose otherwise and make things happen for yourself.

      Unions are just as oppressive as companies; moreso in some cases. The restrictions a union can impose on my ability to be flexible and practice multiple skills would make my job boring and unfulfilling. The one term I hate the most is “That’s not my job.” I could go on about altruism (which is sorely missing in our world these days), but there are good arguments on both sides of that employer/employee fence.

      Do comanies need to consider sharing a little more of the pie with their employees, instead of giving the CEO that 85% raise? Yes. Will unionizing make that happen? Absolutely not!

      If “the man” isn’t paying you enough, perhaps you should look within first. Then, if you’re satisfied within yourself, look elsewhere for work. Maybe you desserve better, but if they’re not offering it where you are, perhaps some other place will.

    • #3101986

      Kill the Goose!!!!

      by buzzwizard ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Oh yeah, lets kill the goose that layed the golden egg the same way that UAW is killing the American auto industry. They’re already outsourcing or jobs to India. Are you trying to speed up the process?

      Buzz

    • #3101948

      What happens when you price yourself out of the market?

      by mot_esach ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      WOW! Are the techies irratable today?

      I have seen both sides of this issue (the union part). I was a job steward and a union local President as well as a member of the local barganing team. I moved into managment and was part of the barganing team for contract renewal due to my experience on the “other side.”

      If you want to ruin the IT field just unionize. Every “junkie tech” out there will celebrate with you, then shove it down your throat.

      Unionization does not guarantee any employement, it does not guarantee any representation nor does it guarantee any wage, bebefit or job security. Oh they will tell you it does – but the truth of the matter is it will not.

      What it will guarantee is poor workmanship from a very few that will reflect on a majority and those very few will be protected. The majority will have to support them because they are union members regardless of their opinion about their technical capabilities.

      If you are being overworked on the job or not being compensated correctly for work or overtime, then you need to do some research into the Fair Labor Standards Act and explore your respective state statutes regarding reasonable and fair compensation. That is the first avenue for requiring compliance by the employer. If they don’t meet what you want, but are in compliance, then move- its still a free country. To require a salary minimum will eventually defeat your purpose. Outsourcing will be the result and tnat means no matter what you want to charge – no one is going to pay it.

      I think we pay a lot of occupations way to much money for the products they give including a lot of techies. I do free lance work and freely admit to my clients (in advance) that I may not have the answers – but I will send them to someone who I know won’t put the screws to them to get their answers. In my local area there are six shops that frequently and intentionally don’t warrantee their work nor do they offer any real solutions. I don’t send anyone to them and they know it. I also do work for several companies whose deadwood problem in the “techie” field scares me. I don’t believe the “certification” process helps and I tell my clients that fact.

      If you want to be paid well – then do a good job. If your company is too small to offer “glorius compensation” then move on to someone who will. Whatever you do don’t insult the “90 day wonders” comming out of the tech schools. Many of them are great – some are fantastic and still others are idiots. What one produces is the measure. Maybe that is a point you need to examine. You also are not entitled to the “top of the mountain” until you pay for the trip. I think managers can figure it out quickly enough. I think grousing over compensation is really a process of expressing disatisfaction with an employer. That is a different subject than compensation.

      The important thing to understand is that pay scales quite often reflect the local economy or the general state of economic well being for the company or the local community. If you live in an area that can support $50/hour then more power to you. But to unionize and set broad scale employment rates will keep expansion from occuring. Lack of expansion means lack of promotional or even basic employment opportunities. It certainly stifles personal creativity which is what, in my opinion, drives the IT field to having the quality that I have seen.

      If you don’t want to work for $12/hr don’t. But ask yourself who is going to pay the bills. If you are in an area where your wages won’t pay the bills, then leave – after a process of poor techs who will work for those wages, with associated down time and consulting costs, managers will figure it out and wages will go up.

      The important thing to understand is that it is possible to price yourself right out of the market – then how do you pay the bills?? All the technical experience in the world isn’t going to help you if there are no jobs for you.

      To sum up – a union is not the answer. It will ultimately only lead to more problems than solutions

    • #3101946

      Unions….

      by ibanezoo ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      … hah… we have enough of those mafias ruining everything else in this country…. why ruin IT? Why do people complain so much about their IT jobs in these discussions? Find another line of work if it sucks so bad. You get paid what you are worth and if you don’t produce there is someone else who will and for cheaper. Maybe you can start your own company and pay your IT staff whatever you think is fair.

    • #3101928

      Recipe for Disaster

      by montgomery gator ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Think things are bad now, if this happens, all the good jobs will be outsourced to Bangalore (unless we can get our IT brethren in India and other countries to go along with the plan).

    • #3101926

      Union jobs get outsourced

      by edwards ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Look at GM, Ford, United Airlines. High priced
      union labor is sinking those companies. There is
      a big pool of cheap IT labor available in India.
      Go ahead a unionize. Demand big wages. The Indians
      will be happy to undercut you. So will non-union
      people who prefer employment to unemployment. Look
      at Winchester (U.S. Repeating Arms Corporation).
      They are closing up shop. They can’t make a profit with high union wages. Socialism does
      not work in government or the workplace. Make
      yourself more valuable and your paycheck will
      reflect the consequences. Resort to collectivist
      union thuggery and you can join the unemployed.

      I have more computer science, electrical
      engineering and embedded systems development work
      on my plate than I can handle. I’ve had to put
      some requests in abeyance. My hourly rate as an
      employee works out to around $62/hour. I don’t
      have to demand it. My employer is happy to have
      my services at that rate. They bill my labor out
      at $250/hour (loaded rate).

    • #3101923

      To sum up ….

      by startech ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Just some themes in this thread in case you union-mongers missed them:

      Say no to unions!

      Unions are a bad idea!

      Unions do nothing for you!

      Unions cost YOU money (is that racketeering?)

      Unions give you a false sense of security!

      Unions are the cause of the downfall of this country!

      Unions lead to faster overseas outsourcing!

      You make less money with a union!

      Unions stifle creativity and innovation.

      Unions are for the weak.

      You’re better off negotiating for yourself than letting a union rep do it for you!

      Unions promote weakness, lazyness, and complacency.

      Unions are old tools for an ancient society.

      Unions are DEAD!

      Now let’s stop whining! If you want $50/hr. — go earn it!

      • #3101906

        Well said, StarTech!

        by it mgr/packer fan ·

        In reply to To sum up ….

        It is unfortunate, but folks– our field is just like any other– there are new kids, fresh out of college, applying for jobs at YOUR workplace every day! Your only recourse is to do a great job, make yourself valuable, learn new things, even if you are not directly paid to do so, and go the extra mile. In IT, expect to work evenings, weekends and holidays– expect to change with the times, and do so as rapidly as possible, and that means keeping your THOUGHTS young and flexible, too. As for those huge salaries that a lot of IT people seem to think they command– well, if the company can get the same work cheaper, they will- look around you, companies are going bankrupt, and this is no kidding– they MUST stay competitive, and to do so, must watch the bottom line. As for unions– why do you suppose all those darn GM plants are closing? I can tell you, because I was a contractor at AC Sparkplug, early in my IT career- they are closing because uneducated Kentucky men and women felt they could hold the company for ransom, and demand $25 an hour, in the 80’s, for putting a widget on a car body as it went by. Things MUST equalize, that is not right, and that is what is happening with IT- if it is easy enough to get an MCSE that so many people, CHILDREN are doing it, then perhaps it isn’t worth $100,000 a year to hire one. And I have managed and built servers in Europe, from my home in Wisconsin– your competition is worldwide. The solution? Get specialized, be smarter than the average bear- or do get into another field, that will guarantee you the big bucks– and let us know what field that would be!

    • #3101888

      Phfft… Unions…

      by greentwig ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Sorry, but if you can’t bargain your own enterprise agreement you probably aren’t in the right industry…

    • #3101886

      I’ve Heard All These Arguments Before ! ! !

      by logos-systems ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      After being in this industry for over 35 years now, I can tell you that there has been a national debate for the Unionization IT Workers has happened at least 3 times that I know of. It didn’t happen then and I doubt if it will happen now.

      If you don’t want to work all of those unpaid hours above 40 hours, I strongly suggest you move into consulting. At least you get paid for every hour you do work. Of course you don’t get paid if you are sick or on vacation, but that is the trade-off.

      If you don’t want to work hard, constantly keep learning the new technologies as they come out, I would strongly suggest that you get a job with the New York Transit Workers union.

      If your IT skills are mediocre, and you want to get paid what another person does that has exceptional IT skill, who is willing to do what is necessary to themselves ahead in their particular specialty, then a union may be the only way to accomplish your goal. But you will find that most of the mediocre IT personnel will be laid off, with little hope of finding another position anywhere! Just remember in this global economy if an IT worker cannot show an employer that the company can get a better Return On Investment (ROI) by hiring them, than any other IT worker in this country, or by outsourcing the work to some overseas IT Shop then the chance of that IT work be hired is minimum at best. Even if IT workers could form the strongest possible union in history, there is no way US write a law that would prevent any company, US based or foreign based, from going overseas and hiring someone else.

    • #3101881

      Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

      by riverrat1 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Come on now, you really think a MCSE is earning your way? All you have to do is buy a cram exam, memorize it, lay down $100 the next day and take a test. I know people who only knew how to turn on a computer and surf the internet who asked me how to get in the industry. I told em get a MCSE and guess what, in one month they had an IT job.

      • #3272426

        Death to Certs!

        by scifiman ·

        In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

        Yeah, and now nobody will even look at my 24 plus years in the industry resume, because it doesn’t mention a certification. To bad companies don’t invest in employee training anymore. It’s, “hey, spend the $10K yourself and we’ll keep you on, or else we’ll hire a kid that cramed for an exam but can’t troubleshoot.” To bad I can’t memorize things or I’d have a pretty piece of paper too.

    • #3101862

      small-side

      by tink! ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Perhaps a union would work for the larger companies with large IT departments. But for those of us who work with smaller companies, I think it would hurt us more than help.

      Yes unions often get employees great benefits and huge flexibility (especially for families with kdis). But small companies are often family run and therefore have that understanding anyway.
      To make it required by union law would simply antagonize the company and make them feel like they are being yanked by the throat. Whereas if you allow them the freedom of offering the benefits and flexibility on their own, they are more agreeable to deal with and more willing to be flexible with the employee(s).

      This I say because I’ve worked for mostly smaller family run companies, and they’ve been wonderfully flexible for me and my kids.

    • #3101861

      Unions will only bolster foriegn outsourcing.

      by ralford100 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      NO WAY TO UNIONS. Things are bad now, with outsourcing to India, China, Mexico, etc; Unions would make the situation much, much, worse!

      • #3102610

        They Already Have

        by budziaszek ·

        In reply to Unions will only bolster foriegn outsourcing.

        What do you think IBM went Global for, here on a contract to Air Canada they layed off over 300 developers and sent the work to India. So do you feel safe anymore while flying on this carrier?
        Rather than hiring resources here in Quebec I was sending work also to Bulgaria. So you tell me what makes you so special (rhetorical)? Anyone can be replaced!

    • #3101816

      Think

      by raintree ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      You need to think this through. Unions have done some very good things but your last statement is scary. Wanting the power to run the world has caused more damage than anything else I can think of.

      Some of us have been around for awhile (early 60s for me), don’t have a cert because we don’t need on (you might call decades of experience a cert). Please don’t tell us we are now to be excluded from the IT industry because we don’t have an MCSE or a Masters Degree.

      If you don’t like the place your working you are always free to seek other employment.

    • #3101781

      It’s unionized at Miami – Dade County

      by delaaguilerae ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I am the Recording Secretary for AFSCME Local 199 and I work for Miami-Dade County ETSD Enterprise Technology Services Department. (Senior Telecomm. Tech.) Several IT classifications are listed in our Bargaining Unit they are as follows: Computer Technician 1,Programmer Assistant, Programmer1,Programmer2, System Analyst Programmer1, Sys. Analyst Programmer2, Sys. Analyst Technician and Telecomm. Techs working for the Hardware and Depot Divisions doing computer repair and wired or wireless networks.

      By Florida Statues Public Employees have the right to unionize. The good thing about having a Union contract with classifications, a pay scale and the concept of “Seniority” is that it helps the worker and like you say anything thing beyond 40 hrs on many classifications that are not Job Basis is Overtime ( time and a half pay) and if you get called back to work after hours you earn a minimun of 4 hrs overtime.
      We have On Call pay for Programmers they get 2 extra pay steps for being on call and beeper. (The County is trying to take that away from us in contract negotiations.)
      Also the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act specifies that in many job functions or classifications anything above 40 hrs a week is OVERTIME.

      • #3272398

        Government workers

        by tonythetiger ·

        In reply to It’s unionized at Miami – Dade County

        are unionized because of the widespread practice of hiring according to the applicant’s political affiliation rather than their abilities. It was actually a greater expense to the taxpayer to have to train thousands of people every 4 years.

        • #3272206

          True..but that’s not the only reason!

          by delaaguilerae ·

          In reply to Government workers

          Open competitive exams and the Merit System were implemented at the Federal, State, County and City level to help correct those problems also the quality of a political appointee was rather poor.
          There are other factors; at the County and City level there are residency requirements. Applicants must reside in or move to the County or City within 6 Months of accepting the job. This is done to benefit the “political subdivision” by making them spend a good portion wages inside the area.
          Also a “well run” public employee enterprise can provide higher quality services for a lower price when compared with a private subcontractor. The reason for it is that the Public Sector does not have to show a profit to enrich the owner. It can simply break even, using higher quality material or processes to benefit the taxpayer.

        • #3273791

          Tax Payer Benifits

          by mikeetemple ·

          In reply to True..but that’s not the only reason!

          AFSCME.ORG is a UNION of public employees that was started in the “30s by a group of REPUBLICAN Auditors that worked for the State of Wisconson. When the newly elected Democratic Governor announced that he would “spoil” existing employees for a “patronige” system of rewarding campaign workers/contributors.

          There is no way that you can make a “profit” from certain mandated public concerns such as children protective service, corections and even HOMELAND SECURITY or IT security.

          IT now and the future will have the greatest impact on our society as we know it today.

          If we do not collectivly learn how to control our destiny, it will control us.

        • #3271968

          Yes there is a way

          by delaaguilerae ·

          In reply to Tax Payer Benifits

          You can make profits in corrections it has been tried by Republicans who want to privatize everything, including corrections. On some States, for profit companies have been allowed to hire and guards and run corrections facilities. The results have been unsafe and dangerous.
          Also Florida’s Jeb Bush has been trying to privatize Florida Schools with a voucher program and there have been some talk of doing that with children protective services.
          I am aware of the Republican origins of AFSCME however its just about all Democratic now. I am allmost sure that we don’t want anything to do with Homeland Security, AFSCME doesn’t represent federal employees. American Federation of State County and Municipal Employees = AFSCME.

          I agree with you on the impact of IT. I remember reading when I was a child a Science Fiction story where the people where so advanced that didn’t have to leave their homes to talk or communicate anybody in the world. The future is here and also Telecommuting specially on IT. What do you think about the help desks overseas?

    • #3101422

      are you nuts?

      by jaqui ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      1) every 6 months there is a new os, not every 2 years [ Linux has new versions on a 6 month schedule ]

      2) Unions are the worst thing to do.
      they promote employee incompetence.
      they promote laziness
      they take money from you
      they interfere with getting the job done

      If I had my employees unionise, then I would simply close the business down, citing “employee incompetence, they went and unionised” as the reason.

      I worked in a union shop, as union member. won’t make that mistake again.

      • #3101420

        I Second that

        by gbennett ·

        In reply to are you nuts?

        Joining a Union is saying I’m too stupid and I I’m going to give someone my hard earned money to think and do for me because I’m too lame.

      • #3101416

        How to deal with unionizing.

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to are you nuts?

        When your employees unionize, you can take one of four approaches:

        1. Knuckle under. Take it in your tender places. Let them rob you.

        2. Fire everyone, close down the business, and go get a real job.

        3. Fire everyone and hire people that aren’t in the union.

        4. Sell the business.

        Exactly one of those doesn’t result in (almost) everyone in the union effort getting canned. Even that one is going to result in reduced employment, as the employer is going to have to cut costs, which means not hiring more people later at the very least.

        If I was running a business and all the employees decided to unionize, I would suddenly stop giving a damn about their welfare. If they want to make an enemy of me, they can damned well look to someone else for support than me. Screw ’em.

        • #3101391

          re 2

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to How to deal with unionizing.

          fire everyone, close down the business, and start a new one.
          is an option.

        • #3101337

          Well, sure . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to re 2

          . . . but not in the same industry. Industries that have been unionized are pretty much closed to entrepreneurship.

        • #3103336

          Yeah, they don’t see that.

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to How to deal with unionizing.

          They talk about solidarity, but it’s out of the other side of the mouth. What they should say is:

          “Yeah, we can get most of you $20 an hour, but you have to decide which of your ‘Union Brothers’ you’re going to kick to the curb in order to do it.”

    • #3101417

      Unionize It…

      by malazaba ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      As a member of the teamsters Union (Local 111) I understand that Union organization has many benefits. Collective bargaining is the best way to attain a group’s goals. However, saying “lets form a union!” and doing it are two entirely separate things. The best advice I can give you is try to work with an existing union to help organize your workspace. Local 111 is a Telecommunications Union and is always looking to help those that are downtrodden.

      • #3101411

        Go Teamsters — NOT!

        by startech ·

        In reply to Unionize It…

        In other words: Bring us your lame; those who can’t speak for themselves; who don’t have any negotiating ability with their employer; who are lazy and weak; who want something for nothing; who want to make $50.00/hr. without earning it.

        P-L-E-A-S-E!

    • #3101409

      Union could be good

      by toby.peterson ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Most other indusrties have a union and for good reason, overtime, breaks and conditions are spelled out for employers and employees. Then both groups would know where we stand.

    • #3101401

      Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

      by dj ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I got out of the immediate IT industry as the only IT work I could get was at a Clerical award wage – pethetic! I also agree there should be certain set levels of pay across the industry, this will assist both employers and IT employees of what they need to expect when dealing with each other.
      Wageline was pethetic cause they got no idea, and employers in the past have taken advantage of that.
      Enterprise barganing is one thing – but is only of use if your barganing skills are better than your employers… or if your have been working for the same organisation for more than a year. Most IT ppl that I know tend to move around between organisations to pickup diverse skills.

    • #3101351

      Please do, so I can steal your job!

      by davea05111 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      No way in the world my IT company will be part of a Union. People hire us because we do things efficiently for reasonable prices, using technology the rest of you are afraid of. The IT world is changing, and if you think you can hole up in a Union, think again.

      Adapt or die. Unionizing is the opposite of adapting. It will never work in the IT field.

      Prove me wrong… so we can grow our business.

    • #3101341

      Yes, yes

      by dumbquestions ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      1000 x yes. Any and all groups/communities must unite around common needs and interests to keep from become enslaved by the master corporations

      • #3102464

        Are you a victim?

        by problemslayer ·

        In reply to Yes, yes

        2 things.

        1.) From the text of your post one would think you are working in a Communist Chinese sweat shop with a gun to your head. I doubt that is the case, and I also doubt that you have so little control over your own destiny. If that is the case, you are in the wrong country.

        2.) Even if I where to grant your premise, (which I do not), I would still say that Unions are not the way to go. Look at thier recent track record. They are killing the industries that are thier bread and butter. Unions are killing airlines and auto manufactures in this countries. If companies like GM go down the tubes, will the Unions have made thier members any better off? How about all those folks GM is going to lay off because they can no longer afford to pay them such high benifit packages? I would say not.

        I think too often people sucumb to the idea that corporations are really infinitely wealthy and simply whithhold money from thier employees because they are mean and greedy. While this may be true in some cases, in many others it’s not.

        America is the land of opportunity. If you can’t make what you want in IT, find another field, or even better quit and start your own corporation and be your own master!

        • #3103095

          Well…

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Are you a victim?

          I think the managers are killing the companies, not the unions. But the unions aren’t helping at all.

        • #3103077

          Depends on the manager

          by problemslayer ·

          In reply to Well…

          Hmm…. You may have a point in many instances. Dilbert anyone? ; )

    • #3101174

      www.techsunite.org

      by jakcap ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

    • #3101173

      Workers of the World Unite!

      by mollenhourb9 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Good idea. You can do for the IT industry what the UAW has done to the US auto industry. How do you feel about moving to China?

    • #3101154

      NO NO NO NO NO NO to UNIONS in IT!!!

      by fred123456 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I work in a union shop, I was forced to pay union dues, I have employees working with me who know nothing about IT and the systems they support. And why are they still here??? Because its literally impossible to get fired because of the union.
      I was actually witness to direct insubordination when the IT Div Mgr asked an employee to move a PC and the employee said no. What happen? Nothing, because according to the union contract IT people are not supposed to “move” PCs.

      If you want knowledgable professionals in IT, do not even think union. In IT it only causes headaches.

    • #3101148

      Knowledge of the Past

      by jaybofma ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Unions were so very important towards worker rights and protections in the early 20th Century. But since then, global competition has rendered US manufacturing to a position where manufacturing jobs are lost every day. Unions are too focused on the here and now. Not one union is truly making headway towards protecting workers futures!

      I’ve worked in a union shop. While fighting over bid-lists, seniority and the next contract, the union totally missed the big picture and several manufacturing sites are now laid waste in the shadow of Bunker Hill. Even then those union members constantly chatted around the lunch tables about the problems faced by their auto-worker ?brothers?, all the while the scene through those lunch-rooms windows was of scrap steel being loaded onto ships on the opposing shore of the river, bound for reclamation outside of the US for use in the manufacture of the real threat to those auto-worker brothers around the Pacific rim.

      My wife is a teacher. She isn’t necessarily inclined to be a union member, but if she were not, she would still have to pay a stiff fee to the union for some supposed benefit to her through their hard work at contract negition. So she has opted to pay the substantial fee; at least she does get a few discount cards at some local merchants out of it. Sure she gets some good benefits: no real need for stress in the annual review (although that?s not my wife); a seven hour day (although that too is not my wife); a pretty good pension; etc. But her insurance offering is only mediocre compared to what I experience in an open and private industry.

      When have you last sought hardware support and not found yourself talking to an outsourced provider in some unknown offshore location? (I?m sure a Union would have prevented that!) When is the last time you called your land-line telephone service provider and actually had “customer service”? (But they are unionized, aren?t they?) When is the last time you were satisfied with the service provided by your cell-phone provider? Lets see? up my wage (not salary for a Union) to $50/hr for the two years that it takes the company to negotiate a long-term contract to outsource the service! Then it?s 26-weeks at whatever the Unemployment Rate is while you look for a new career, because you won?t find one in IT!

      When was the last time you were an owner of an American-made car? I’ve never owned one, Eagle Scout, public-school reared, flag waving Patriot, husband of a Union teacher that I may be.

      Use your “knowledge”-based career traits to take a step back and find a better perspective.

    • #3102627

      Join the Teamsters!

      by ejbag ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      The answer is simple. Organize with the only Union that will take on Employers who outsource or move jobs to foriegn countries. The Teamsters Union is 1.4 million workers from Doctors to Zoo Keepers.
      Ed

    • #3102619

      Someone needs a lesson in world economics

      by mareshg ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      If you have real talent in IT someone will pay you what you want. If you are like most of the new certs you have not developed any real skills yet and yes they go for cheap. Look at India and other countries where $5.00 is a great living wage because the cost of living is so cheap. I can pay 3 programmers to work on a project and cross check each other for the price of one in the US. I believe in 2 heads are better than one. It’s kind of like getting a second opinion from a doctor with out paying more, and if the first 2 don’t agree a third isn’t that much more expensive.

      Companies pay for talent and skills that are difficult to obtain on the cheap. So it is up to YOU to get a very unique skill set that companies will pay for. A union will restrict that education because they always serve the lowest common denominator the unskilled worker. That is where their largest support base comes from, and their largest income.

      Unions also price their labor force out of the world market. Look at Ford and General Motors, and the airlines. They have great paying jobs and benefits but the companies are broke, the jobs are gone! Would like to get paid more than you are worth and not have a job or get paid what you are worth and have a job. Make yourself more valuable educate yourself leave that job and negotiate yourself better pay in the next position. Union or no union no one cares about YOU except YOU.

      • #3102470

        You see the forest, now look at the trees…

        by galt ·

        In reply to Someone needs a lesson in world economics

        You make absolutely valid points, and I do realize that business looks at everyone, ultimately, as units in a spreadsheet that can be moved about or tossed away if they get too expensive. I am not in favor of unions–I’ve seen too much bad–but something needs to be done for American IT workers. When you live in a $20/hr economy, you can NOT compete with workers who live in a $5/hr economy. And when anyone, anywhere puts their skills on the block for less than what it is worth, all of us are trivialized to the point of becoming like the shade tree auto mechanics of the 60s and 70s, hawking our skills for whatever we can get from whoever will pull over for a few minutes and let us “lift the hood”.

        • #3102857

          Something will happen.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to You see the forest, now look at the trees…

          Even if nothing is done to fix things, something will happen. Unfortunately, if we’re very unlucky and companies like Microsoft have their way, that “something” will be that the US will start exporting IT workers the same way Canada is exporting healthcare workers.

          If things are allowed to play themselves out the way they’re going, the IT industry will go back to being what it’s supposed to be: a service industry. At the moment, it’s basically a manufacturing industry on the face of it with nothing but ephemera on the back end. Corporate software vendors like Microsoft have a vested interest in keeping things that way, so they do everything in their power to legislate away the openness of a free market that would allow things to evolve, and as communications capabilities improve it becomes ever easier to get people thousands of miles away to do your work for peanuts and get the results as quickly as if they were in your backyard.

          Of course, what we end up with is corporate interests controlling all the software under that business model, and shareholders getting all the major profits while the rank and file just get unemployed or underemployed. Meanwhile, the people using this software get inferior, insufficiently customized software with which they simply have to live because there aren’t any other options.

          With the evolution and ascending relevance of open source software, however, the ability to customize and maintain system on-site, keeping control of assets within one’s own hands. As that opportunity increases, so too will the demand for people to provide that customization and maintenance capability, creating more jobs. With elimination of some really egregious licensing costs, it’s possible to afford the talent to provide this added value to the business, and everyone’s a winner — except the major software vendors’ stockholders.

          Help things move along. Support and vote for government officials who oppose the commoditization of the intellect. Invest in the future of the skilled IT worker rather than the corporation built on their backs to benefit the worthless layabouts in the boardroom. Turn the IT industry into a meritocracy again. Use open source software, contribute to it, and get better functionality for reduced outlay.

        • #3089469

          Value

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to You see the forest, now look at the trees…

          Based on your screen name you should get this.
          The world pays for absolute value, not percieved value. If you cannot compete in the IT space, then it will be outsourced/offshored, as I said before functions (products, services) will always move to the low cost providers if the absolute value is the same.
          So what is the strength of the IT market?
          In a word: Innovation. We are the world leaders (still) in innovation and as long as we continue to innovate there will be IT jobs. The key is innovate or die!
          When we try to retract and protect poor quality and lack of innovation, then the obvious will happen; the industry sector involved will move on where the absolute value is higher.
          If you think otherwise, then now is the time to check your premises and reevaluate the situation!

        • #3089316

          True, but luckily . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Value

          The tech industries need not move geographically to move. The protectionistic industry practices have become so ingrained and narrowing that there is room for the software industry to recreate itself in the same problem-space, because what the software industry has become in its established form is so restricted and insular that it no longer addresses the relevant problem effectively.

          Twenty years ago the software industry still shared some recognizable relationship to a (nonfree) market economy, and had some kind of passing acquaintance with natural economic laws. If things had reached these dire economic straits under such circumstances (and they would have, given time, if things didn’t change), a complete removal of movers and shakers in the software industry from first-world Western economies, in any sense meaningful for we the “IT professionals”, would have been inevitable.

          Because the major software vendors have been “forced” to keep tightening their grips on their profit models at the expense of applicability of their productivity to the problem-space the industry is meant to address, the problem at hand has been left increasingly unaddressed. It is this that gave open source software an opportunity to flourish and grow as an alternative market influence, and it is this that provides a possibility to keep some effective software industry here at home. A competing market would otherwise have had to grow in alternative geographic zones, but because the competing market uses a wholly different profit model it can coexist (unpeacefully) in the same geographical markets. Because an industry based on open source development principles is more in line with natural economic laws, the only way the entrenched software industry will be able to compete against it is through governmental interference (legislation, et cetera).

          Thus, the greatest threat to the IT industry job market and innovation in the US is legislation favoring tech industry corporations, such as software patents and further copyright protection legislation.

        • #3085529

          Future of IT?

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to True, but luckily . . .

          I agree. The incumbent software industry will give way to open source judt like the market moved from a mainframe centric view to a distributed view.

          I believe the open source model is the future for IT and it will cause the proprietary providers to respond.

          It is interesting that IBM is now a proponent of open source, because I believe it provides an avenue for them to break the MS software dominance.
          What comes around goes around, since MS is exactly where IBM was in the 70’s and 80’s.
          It will be an interesting future indeed however as you have stated software patents are a vile and evil thing and should not be allowed.

      • #3272775

        Why do People Always Blame the Little Guy..

        by boogaloodude ·

        In reply to Someone needs a lesson in world economics

        Why aren’t you mentioning the Salaries of the CEO’s, CFO’s, Presidents, Vice Presidents, Marketing, etc…., Don’t you think that figures into the Equation?, Don’t you think that’s gotten More then a Little out of Hand? Who’s there to put a Cap on thier Salaries?

        • #3272651

          Because it’s always the little guy mucking up the works

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Why do People Always Blame the Little Guy..

          expecting CEO pay for entry-level ability. Don’t [b]you[/b] think your [b]inability[/b] figures into the equation? When there is more competition for chief executive positions, meaning more people qualified to do that work, then the market will drive their salaries down. Until there is enough qualified competition, nobody has stepped up to put a cap on their salaries.

        • #3088024

          CEO’s are different

          by scifiman ·

          In reply to Because it’s always the little guy mucking up the works

          You can’t bring executive pay into the discussion. Their pay, bonus’s, etc. are NOT market driven. And if you’ll look into it, only a percentage of them earn their huge pay. It’s an entirely different game at that level, and has nothing to do with pay for performance. Plenty of them get increases and golden parachutes as they drive a once profitable company onto the rocky shore.

        • #3087873

          Newb question

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to CEO’s are different

          I have never worked in a company large enough to have CxO’s, so I need to ask… What exactly is it that they do? How does one get to be a CxO?

          From the little I know, they sit around and do nothing… I’ll take my nitty-gritty tech job over that any day…

        • #3088318

          What does a CxO do?

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Newb question

          I’m not one, but I work day in and day out with them.

          Trust me, they don’t do nothing. I’ve never seen a lazy one last more than a year or two. A CxO must deliver or perish like a salesperson. I have read a few articles about how fragile life as a CIO is – how quickly they are terminated.

          The basics of the job is to help achieve the corporate goals – reduce costs, increase revenues, etc. They have to bring departments and divisions with differing goals together. They have to arrange the marriages of strategic partners.

          I have no hesitation in saying the ones that I know work harder than I do. Typically they put in 10 hour days and are available to their peers anytime. A lot of what it takes are influence skills, time management skills, communications skills.

          How do you get there? You have to have a track record of delivering on those corporate goals, and you have to be able to work with the bigger team – the president, board of directors, vendor partnerships etc. You must have great networking and communications skills.

          James

        • #3088434

          “an entirely different game at that level”

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to CEO’s are different

          That means, an entirely different market, not the absence of a market. I stand by the opinion that if more people were qualified to compete for those jobs, competition would have the same effect as it has on any market.

      • #3076592

        Sure they will

        by it survivor ·

        In reply to Someone needs a lesson in world economics

        Let me buy you that ticket to India so you can make what your really worth to the IT industry in the good old USA

    • #3102609

      But. . .

      by bkinsey1 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Why on earth would anybody want the job of running this world?!?! I’ll pass, thanks. . . . Oh, and I’ll pass on the union thing, too. . . .

    • #3102558

      Unionize… Why?

      by kwilson ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Unionize? Why, so we can create a new payroll deduction to standardize pay, opportunities, and benefits while the non-IT union staff rake in the dough? Are you an ethical worker? Are you willing to eat the slack that those less ethical workers create because they know how to take advantage of the Union? How about politics? You won’t get rid of company politics you will add another set of union politics to the mix.

      Some of the most talented and skillful IT folks I know have no cert, and they are old hackers (good hackers) who did what needed to be done and taught themselves… Of all of those hard working IT folk who were too busy doing their jobs and gaining valuable practical experience in the trenches to get, or update a marketing, I mean an IT certification so they could “have that piece of paper”, would get shut out of careers they built… nice.

      Better yet when some schmuck thinks he’s worth $60/hour and forgets to factor in his benefits into the equation decides to incite a strike, then everyone will have to suffer…

      Unionize IT? No thanks. There are plenty of employers out there who pay good wages for their locations, and when one factors in their benefits like the various insurances, medical, dental, vision, prescription and other perks that don’t show up in one’s paycheck in the form of dollars, one just might find they’re already making $50 or more an hour.

      That $12/hour employee is probably pulling down around twice that when the benefits are figured in, and that’s just starting pay… Of course if $12/hr is laughable then no one should apply for the position and the company might get the idea to offer more.

      On the other hand, if it’s an “all about me” proposition and the BBD, then go solo but before you do, ask those who been-there-done-that… They might enlighten you to the fact that those bigger bucks will cost you more than you might have thought… Everything has a cost… I’m not sure the cost of unionizing offers the kind of ROI you think you’ll get.

      Don’t forget, it’s not just all about what you’ve done, but how well you’ve done it and more importantly, how well you’ve handled it and communicated to your peers and superiors in accomplishing the tasks required of you.

      Finally, Why don’t you take your Masters degree, and your MCSE cert some place that will give you $50/hr and 40/h/wk… someone who can afford it, but then you’re going to have to find someplace that’s not going to expect you to be strapped to a pager as an MCSE.

      We all knew the terms of our employment when we took our respective jobs… If they no longer meet our needs, we can re-negotiate or head out. In a union shop, no one re-negotiates but the union… In a sense you belong to them – they don’t belong to you… think about it…

    • #3102438

      Unions are key cause of inflation

      by is1 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Greedy backstabber is what the definition of union should be. They had a place and a time that is no longer now or here in the US. Look at what the crooks did in NY and what about the teacher?s union scum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • #3102428

      UnionizeIT?

      by wagnernd ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I have many years expeience in Labor Law/Labor Relations. While to organize IT Dept.’s sounds very good, it is very complex. For starters you can’t just organize one subsection of a Company (“Carve out a Unit”. “The National Labor Relations Act” should be easily available after a web search. I wish you well as it is a very good idea, if done right! wagnerND

    • #3103080

      UNION YES!

      by decimumaximus ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I have been in the IT feild since 1986! In 1990 I was making $95k a year as a A+ Bench tech.I Now own a successfull IT business and am lucky to pull 75k myself, I also now hold 45 differnt certifications and 2 bachelors degrees. WTF why did I bother getting certified if some punk who has “Worked five years or so” can undercut me for $12 an hour!?
      Yes over the years I found consulting to be the best way to keep my wages better than $12hour…But the consulting arena has it’s share of hacks.. The phone book is full of morons who couldn’t get that $12 hour job at Best buy on the jerk squad much less actually fix something..so they placed an add in the phone book and wolah! they are now a tech! Don’t get me wrong they keep me busy ..But I am real tired of the reputation they leave and even more tired of fixing stupid $h!t that some dumb@$$ hack with a Certification of “NONE!” and his only
      Qualification is that he Plays everquest and has a myspace.. that $12hour jerkoff cost the client $100’s in downtime and probably lost their wedding pictures and their childs first steps in the process. Hey if it was as easy as format and restore what the hell would we need techs for !

      I am ready for a Union lets get rid of these Stupid kids that keep driving our wages into the ground! and get our money Back!!!!!!
      Hell I would be happy to get just recoup the funds I put into IT certifications…not to mention the years of hitting the books I could have been a lawyer or doctor by now.. $12 an hour what a CROCK!

      I didn’t go to school for 8 years, AND WORK IN IT. FOR the last 20 JUST to earn 12$ an hour. I AM SURE MOST OF WHO WHO CAN SYPATHIZE DIDN’T GO TO SCHOLL WITH 12$ AN HOUR IN MIND EITHER! = NOT YELLING ! just excited ; )
      Please keep this ball rolling !

      • #3103008

        IT Union NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        by bg6638 ·

        In reply to UNION YES!

        I’ve been in IT for 30 years, and I have to admit that it is frustrating to see what has happened to the wages. But consider, between advances in technology, heavy outsourcing, and an oversupply of CS grads, wages have no where to go but down! Think $12/hr is bad? I was sent to apply for a Help Desk I position(better than nothing when your unemployed), and was told by the receptionist not to apply because I didn’t have a Master’s! I asked to see the job description (all 7 pages worth), and besides the Master’s, they wanted 5 yrs exp., virtually every cert offered by Citrix, Cisco, Msoft, and Redhat. Add to that exp with as400 websphere, and HP3000 MPE/IX ManMan Erp. It was a temp to hire position with a starting rate of…….$9/hr! That’s right $9.00/hr for all of those qualfications for an entry level job!!!!!

        How is a union going to change the business world? Demanding $50/hr and 9-5 days will only cause business owners to increase outsourcing to the point where India will run all IT services for the U.S.!

      • #3103380

        I doubt seriously

        by tonythetiger ·

        In reply to UNION YES!

        that the average IT wage is $12 an hour. I know dozens of IT people, and none make less than $20. Most are in the $30 to $45 range. If you are unhappy with your wage, change companies, or go into business for yourself. Creating a gang of Union IT thugs isn’t going to solve your problem… It will just put more people in the same boat with you… Misery loves company.

      • #3100463

        Re: Union Yes

        by kwilson ·

        In reply to UNION YES!

        It is admirable that you have so many certs you can get the acronyms on a regular sized business card, tht you actually went to school for the field and know what you’re doing. I respect that and I know several others who are just as skilled through experience and have no certs.

        I also sympathize with all the wannabe’s out there, I’ve cleaned up after several myself. But, I don’t think unionization for IT will help. The bottom line of business is profit: That’s why India, Russia, and Indonesia are so attractive. But, many companies are reaping the rewards of cheap IT much like the clients you help clean up after the “Best-Buy-Rejects”.

        Frankly, the possibility is very real that unionizing IT will have the same future as unionized manufacturing… A new home overseas or south-of-the-border…. Compared to unemployment, I would think that $12/hr. for starters will look pretty good then.

        We need to make a decent living, but at the same time, we can’t make choices that drive companies out-of-business, or out of the country. There is a balance and it is uniquely achievable among individuals without a union… Maybe you should start a wage-negotiation consulting service for IT professionals and see how many of them would like to pay “union dues” to you to negotiate them a dollar or two an hour wage with one extra day off per year. I have seen several companies close their doors rather than get strapped down by a union. They opened up under another name with lower wages than before the union came, and guess what? People still applied to work there.

        Personal greed is something that cannot serve us or our families, but sound financial and spending choices can. I want my career and career choices in MY hands, not a Union’s. Don’t forget: a union is also a business, and it too must make business decisions based on the factors that keep it in business… its member ship is just one of those factors.

        Think about it…

    • #3103020

      Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

      by fractalzoom ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      squaredge said:
      “I say we apply rules of work that apply to a 40 hour work week and serious overtime. I say we demand $50/hr for any IT related work, as a minimum. If we join together we have the power to run this world!”

      Ummm…do you wanna get real, sir? You are dealing with a painfully outdated worldview. There are eager IT hopefuls in India for whom $12 is a princely wage…and in the world as it exists today, trying to hold corporations over a barrel the way you describe will make the decision to replace you with somebody in Mumbai a very easy one.

      Let me know when you make your move. I wanna come watch you crash and burn.

      • #3103408

        Those IT Guru’s in India …..

        by evisscerator ·

        In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

        Yes, they may work for $12.00 per hour,considered a princely wage, however, you cannot understand a dang word they are saying. Furthermore, if you invite them to dinner, you can’t eat beef because they would think you’re eating their Uncle or some close relative to them.

        I would work for $12.00 an hour if ……

        My house payment decreased by $200.00 a month,
        My car payment was cut in 1/2 each month,
        My utility bills were cut in 1/2 each month,
        My taxes were cut 100%,
        and
        My employer realized what a tremendous value and asset I was to his business, rather than a huge cost to his bottom line.

        Perhaps then, folks, we could live as they do in 3rd world India, Japan, Korea, or China. All things being equal, don’t you agree?

        Or by chance, are you smart enough to figure out that NAFTA/GATT were the things that took your livelyhood away and gave them to those 3rd world India Guru’s who couldn’t command a vowel of the Kings English?

        Here Here !

        • #3103216

          Beef eating…

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Those IT Guru’s in India …..

          …yes majority of the Indians do not eat it. Yet, majority of them would not take to offence if someone else were to be eating it.

        • #3103212

          Beef in Indian cuisine

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Beef eating…

          I’ve been to many Indian restaurants in North America, including a few which cater more to immigrants from India.

          Beef is usually available but not prominent on the menu. As I quite enjoy lamb, this is not an issue, personally I think the lamb dishes work better.

          My fav though, is butter chicken. The supermarket that I shop at has a butter chicken frozen dinner that I buy for my lunch at work – microwaveable. They also have Chicken Korma, Chicken Biryani, Pad Thai and others, but for me, the Butter Chicken reigns supreme. Probably not the healthiest choice – no veggies except the onion and tomato in the sauce, lots of butter/ghee.

          James

        • #3272391

          You already make all the $ you need

          by scifiman ·

          In reply to Those IT Guru’s in India …..

          You could probably do it. Did you buy more house than you need, in an expensive (high tax) neighborhood? Got a 20mpg $30K car when a 30mpg $17K car will get you to the same places? Have premium cable TV you hardly ever watch, big cell phone bill, dinners out often, etc? Bottled water that costs $20 a gallon? $4 coffee every morning?

          Personnally, I made aprox $60K last year but spent more. Just gave myself a big raise starting last month simply by automating all of my bill payments, and cleaned up my wasteful spending. No more huge bank fees, bounced checks, and underused services. Now I can fund my retirement and the family can eat out and see a movie without the water getting shut off.

          Took me 44 years to figure out it wasn’t my paycheck that was the problem, it was me. I don’t need a union taking more of my income- just some reasonable self-control. Sure, I’ll take future pay raises and better jobs, but suddenly I have plenty of money.

        • #3272293

          Smart!

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to You already make all the $ you need

          It’s kind of like a company cutting costs instad of raising prices… Gee, who woulda thought?

      • #3103166

        Just $12.00 an Hour

        by boogaloodude ·

        In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

        I think we’re losing sight of the beginning of this thread, although it seems like it’s been up here forever, it’s only been 2 days (I think you struck a chord with this one) This started as a discussion about unionizing HERE in the US, not India, unless that $12.00 an hour includes Travel time. I’m assuming that most of the IT people involved in this discussion have a home base, or a corporation that they work for, and those jobs cannot be outsourced to India, China or Korea..There are just certain jobs that will never leave the country, like Car Mechanics, and Home Theater Installation (my niche) which, by the way I’d love to see unionized, because I’ve been doing it for years, and I see those hungry young upstarts who live with Mom and Dad, charging $12.00 an hour, and the people I work with charge a flat $40.00 plus travel! So if you think of yourselves more in terms of an Electrician or a Carpenter, (which, by the way are Union Positions) you’ll see that your job is not likely to go to another country. I can’t say one way or another which is best Union or Non, but I’ve never heard a Union member complain about Health, Dental, or Retirement Benefits, or Job Security for that matter.

        • #3101743

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Just $12.00 an Hour

          “but I’ve never heard a Union member complain about Health, Dental, or Retirement Benefits, or Job Security for that matter.”

          That’s because they don’t realize that the money paid for all of those ‘benefits’ comes from money the employer could be paying to them and/or saving the consumer of the product or service. It’s a shell game, and as P.T. Barnum said: “There’s a sucker born every minute.”.

        • #3100962

          CareerBuilder search

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to Just $12.00 an Hour

          I just searched postings within the lat 30 days within 30 miles of Boise.

          I see no LAN techs asked for for $12/hr. (I had my suspicions earlier…)

          I do see some posts for positions around that wage rate, but they are for sales and data entry, etc.

          So, let’s all try to imagine a data entry clerk making $50/hr…

    • #3103349

      History lesson here

      by pete1978 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Where is the US steel industry? Where is the US automotive industry? Answer, both of these formerly very powerful US industries are now very much struggling. In both cases, they were unionized and, ultimately, the cost of jobs forced the “exportation” of many of the jobs. We do not have foreign cars outselling US cars because they are better cars or even because they are less expensive (though arguments could be given for both ideas). We have foreign cars outselling US cars because they are better cars per dollar! This is very much due to the high cost of wages in the unionized US plants. Let’s face it, when the cost of wages is lower, the manufacturer can afford to use higher quality parts because they are spending less on putting those parts together into a car. Ergo, cars are being built where wages are lower. Detroit is dead!

      Where are IT jobs going? The answer is that, even without IT unions, IT jobs are going overseas where the wages are lower.

      Go ahead, unionize. But when you do, US IT workers will ALL be unemployed. You should have saved more money when an MCSE was a rare commodity. Today, an MCSE is a dime-a-dozen and you just are not going to get high $$. Deal with it.

      • #3100702

        Compassionate conservatism?

        by peter warren ·

        In reply to History lesson here

        Thanks for your compassionate advice to just
        “deal with it.” It seems you should have looked a little further back in our glorious history to the days of child labor, company towns and indentured bondage. I’m sure you would have found many fellow travelers.

        According to your program, we can all look forward to working for pennies an hour and living in abject poverty. Way to go! I suppose you think that you and your children will be immune because you are so special. Wake up. You’re probably going to go down with the rest of the us.

        I’m so tired of the whining lament that nothing can be done to manage our economy to better meet society’s needs. Let’s face it. It’s just another way to avoid responsibilty and pretend everything is fine. Maybe unionization isn’t the answer. But there are answers and we need to get serious about finding them. Enough of this nonsense about the untouchable state of American style capitalism.

        • #3100634

          Re: Compassionate conservatism?

          by ralford100 ·

          In reply to Compassionate conservatism?

          There IS a way to improve the economy, but few are willing to put the effort in:
          1) Up the quality of your work.
          2) If you CAN’T do the work at high quality, don’t BS your way into a high paying job just to sit at your desk and play solitair.
          3) Lose the “job security” BS. Instead of hoarding information to make you “indespensible” (and keep you in a cushy job), expand your skills and responsibilities.
          4) DO NOT under ANY circumstances sabotage the job effort to keep your job longer (something that union members are notorious for)!

          IN OTHER WORDS, EARN YOUR PAY. SIMPLE, BUT EFFECTIVE

        • #3272431

          Simple, but too often ineffective

          by peter warren ·

          In reply to Re: Compassionate conservatism?

          I agree with your four suggestions. What too many of us fail to realize is that even when we more than earn our pay, we are still tossed out like yesterday’s trash if the same job can be given to someone else at a fraction of the cost. Inevitable under our so-called free market system? I don’t think so.

          We who have contributed mightily to economic growth deserve better and we still have the power to improve our economy and our society. Unfortunately, simply working hard, honestly and efficiently is all too often not enough. We need to replace our so called leaders with people intelligent enough to get the big picture.

        • #3272385

          Re: Simple, but too often ineffective

          by ralford100 ·

          In reply to Simple, but too often ineffective

          I feel that my point is correct, but that the quality mentality needs to be very widespread, as opposed to a minority of individuals “simply working hard, honestly and efficiently”.

          Quality w/quantity participation. Unfortunately, it may be too late. We have to ride his one out and wait for world economic balance; and of course, it’ll never be the same.

        • #3272034

          I’m riding too

          by peter warren ·

          In reply to Re: Simple, but too often ineffective

          I agree. I’ve been riding for a while and I hope that the future will be characterised by real concern for quality. I do think that without intelligent management of our economic resources, we’re destined to repeat the same old mistakes over and over.

        • #3100820

          What are you talking about?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Compassionate conservatism?

          I didn’t see anything that said we can’t do anything to help the situation. I just saw a pretty clear-headed explanantion for how/why unionizing isn’t the answer. Stop putting words in people’s mouths.

          The mixed economy of the US is seriously broken. Corporate welfare, arbitrary regulation, and economy management are screwing up the efficiencies of the market economy.

        • #3272417

          Just Deal with it?

          by peter warren ·

          In reply to What are you talking about?

          Maybe I missed it, but all I read were examples of industry failures being blamed on workers. Do you really believe that our corrupt government officials and their myopic corporate paymasters have nothing to do with it?

          And I don’t know, but somehow “just dealing with it” strikes me as surrender to the status quo, no matter how miserable it gets. It’s too bad that while “just dealing with it” is necessary, it is not sufficient to bring about progress.
          Frankly, in light of the growing seriousness of our economic situation, just dealing with our individual situations is tantamount to economic suicide.

          As you stated, our economy is broken largely due to corporate welfare and other market inefficiencies. I believe these inefficiencies are typically introduced to benefit the powerful and connected. And to paraphrase Maire Antoinette, let the rest of eat crap. What was once envisioned as a society of laws, fairness and equality, is becoming as corrupt and nepotistic as your garden variety bananna republic. I say we can restore our economy and our society by using the power we have. That’s what I am taking about.

        • #3272271

          Try paying more attention.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Just Deal with it?

          “[i]Maybe I missed it, but all I read were examples of industry failures being blamed on workers. Do you really believe that our corrupt government officials and their myopic corporate paymasters have nothing to do with it?[/i]”
          You must have missed the part where I said, at the very end of my previous post: “Corporate welfare, arbitrary regulation, and economy management are screwing up the efficiencies of the market economy.” What does that have to do with blaming workers and leaving government officials and “myopic corporate paymasters” blameless? I did the complete opposite of what you’re trying to say I did.

          Again, you’re putting words in someone else’s mouth — this time, mine.

          What needs to be done is simple. Corporate law needs to be torn down, brick by brick, and replaced with a solid foundation for protection from force and fraud without granting special privileges to anyone. Since government isn’t likely to do so on its own, especially with major corporations like Microsoft lobbying for more of the same rather than a reduction in their own power, we have to monkeywrench the system somehow — which is exactly what open source software is starting to do in the software industry.

        • #3273798

          would that solid foundation be

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Try paying more attention.

          minimalist?

        • #3273705

          hell yes

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to would that solid foundation be

          A free market economy isn’t possible when government looks for every possible excuse to screw with it.

        • #3271981

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by peter warren ·

          In reply to Try paying more attention.

          With all due respect, my first post was in response to comments by another contributor, in which he equated industry failure with the high cost of labor in the US.

          “Where is the US steel industry? Where is the US automotive industry? Answer, both of these formerly very powerful US industries are now very much struggling. In both cases, they were unionized and, ultimately, the cost of jobs forced the “exportation” of many of the jobs.”

          Those are his words. You responded by saying I was putting words in his mouth and that all he?d done was lay out a clear explanation of why unions don?t work. I don?t see any explanation here; just citing examples of failure and, by inference, an indictment of unions and labor.

          True, my response was critical and perhaps overly harsh, but again, here are his words: “Go ahead, unionize. But when you do, US IT workers will ALL be unemployed. You should have saved more money when an MCSE was a rare commodity. Today, an MCSE is a dime-a-dozen and you just are not going to get high $$. Deal with it.” This seems highhanded and arrogant to me. It?s as if he?s saying ?I?ve got mine, so the rest of you can go to hell.? Maybe I?m wrong, but I wonder why he is unable to point to the other important factors that you and I, in our own ways, are concerned about.

          “As you stated, our economy is broken largely due to corporate welfare and other market inefficiencies. I believe these inefficiencies are typically introduced to benefit the powerful and connected.”

          This is part of my second post where I acknowledged your comments about corporate welfare, arbitrary regulation and economic management. The fact is, you and I agree on a very important idea ? that corporate law needs to be torn down and rebuilt without granting special privileges to anyone. When I asked — “Do you really believe that our corrupt government officials and their myopic corporate paymasters have nothing to do with it?” ? I meant to emphasize not your comments, but the oversights referred to in my first post.

          In any case, the blurring of lines between the US government and corporate America is a mistake that?s costing all of us more and more each day. I think reversing this trend is both possible and absolutely necessary if our society is to succeed in the modern world.

        • #3088209

          We could start by getting rid of the idiotic concept

          by server queen ·

          In reply to Try paying more attention.

          that a corporation is an “individual” deserving of the same rights as actual persons. That particular legal fiction has led to a whole host of other problems.

          Unionization – collective bargaining – in its essence is nothing more nor less than a way for the less powerful to negotiate with those who hold all the cards. Like any human institution, it is only as honest and trustworthy as the persons who use it to gain personal power. When it is simply a way for those without a voice to be heard, it is a great thing. Without unions, we’d be dying in sweatshops, working for true slave wages, denied benefits and pensions, and thrown out the door for refusing to comply with whatever absurd and/or inethical whim the current management had. Unions still provide a necessary buffer for even the non-unionized employee, and if you don’t believe that, then you don’t understand what it is that management truly fears about collective bargaining. It isn’t just that wages will go up – if that were the case, maybe they’d think about lowering their own obscene salaries. It’s that employees en masse equal the power of an owner.

          But there are more things to be done to resolve our labor woes than unionize (and by the way, you can join a union to show solidarity even if your job isn’t unionized – I’m a member of Washtech. It doesn’t really buy me anything, but it’s a way to show support for the concept). One of the principal things we need to do is get our legislators off the corporate teat.

          Because corporations have been defined as “individuals” by law, one of the things they can do is political advocacy and political contributions. We’ve reached a point now where you almost can’t win anything beyond a school board race without corporate sponsorship (I just finished a run for office, so I know whereof I speak). And you gotta dance with them whut brung ya – if the global multinationals and their billions are the reason you’re in office, then they expect tit for tat, or next election, their dollars go to someone else.

          The #1 thing we could do to improve the employment situation for ALL of us is to truly clean up campaign financing. NO large private donations. NO money from corporations. Public financing of all political campaigns, with strict spending limits.

        • #3089700

          Finally!

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to We could start by getting rid of the idiotic concept

          I’m glad to see that one person can make the correct case against corporations. That, by the way, is the only one. All the proposals to [b]add[/b] laws to remedy this injustice are only throwing fuel on the fire of totalitarianism. Too many laws.

        • #3089693

          union theory vs. reality

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to We could start by getting rid of the idiotic concept

          I agree: remove the legal identification of corporations as individuals with rights. It’s mucking up the whole works.

          Unions are, in theory, exactly what you say: a way for people to affect change in the industry. In practice, they’re coersive extortion rackets. Unions don’t work without basically everyone joining, so they have a vested interest in strongarming people into joining against their will (or leaving the industry). To make matters worse, the legal situation in the US has evolved to treat unions in much the same way the law treats corporations. They’ve become a mirror image of that against which they’re supposed to protect workers. Union regulation legislation needs to be repealed, in its entirety — then, if you still want to rile up a bunch of your buddies for a picket line, you’re welcome to do so with my blessing, right up to the point where you directly interfere with someone’s right to pursue a livelihood.

          As long as unions can use the law to become extortion syndicates, however, I’m opposed to them. Period.

        • #3088999

          Let’s Do It

          by peter warren ·

          In reply to We could start by getting rid of the idiotic concept

          I agree. We need to defeat the corrupting influence of big money in government. Strict spending limits with completely transparent public financing of campaigns. And while we’re at it, let’s limit the length of our campaigns. One to two months is more than enough for a real discussion of issues.

          As I’ve said elsewhere, blurring the lines between the US government and corporate America is costing all of us more and more each day. It’s time to put the “corporate individual” back in its place.

      • #3102215

        can’t use the auto industry

        by heml0ck ·

        In reply to History lesson here

        I’m afraid you can’t use the auto industry’s unions as the scapegoats for the fall of the big three.
        Lack of foresight, corporate arrogance towards customer loyalty, a corporate culture which stifles change (read: improvement), these are the factors which led to the fall of GM, not the people actually amking the product.
        Dollar for dollar, American and Japanese work make about the same, when you consider cost of living and benefits. The difference is that the Japanese auto makers have invested in their own companies by: 1)streamlined production processes which DON’T involve layoffs,2) demanding quality from their suppliers and helping them achieve their quality goals, 3)using a ‘stop the line’ mentality to empower the workers to take ownership of their processes and ensure quality is built into the car.
        It isn’t the UNIONS that won’t allow that sort of corporate culture, it is the MANAGEMENT!

        • #3102180

          I agree with the 1st line of your response

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to can’t use the auto industry

          The Big 3’s problems began after US legislation began to favor foreign competition rather than the American worker. In theory, you could sell an American-made auto in Japan. If you were Japanese and bought one, the Japanese government performed a complete audit of all of your finances so they quit buying them. The Japanese were/are free to purchase American companies/real estate. Do you or anyone know of ANY American company that has bought and succeeded with the purchase of a Japanese company. The largest investment firms in America can barely afford to keep a Japanese golf club membership on Japanese soil.

          In the 90’s, Japan business leaders held weekly meetings on how to manage the American economy. They quit doing that because the trade defecit made it much easier for them to profit from buying American companies.
          I have seen Japanese investment groups buy US patent rights (innovation) and then never attempt to produce the product simply to prevent competition by a US company.
          The Japanese Keiritsu business model allows them to profit by “dumping” products in the US. (Sell them for less than what it costs to produce them.) “Dumping” is and has been illegal for American companies. American companies struggle to compete for product cost when US legislation makes it illegal and allows the vast trade deficits to continue unabated.

          Corporations are responsible to their shareholders to produce profit. If an American owned manufacturing Corporation is still running profitably in the face of all the US legislation favoring foreign trade I think that management might just be doing the right things. I do wonder who the share-holders are though.

        • #3272448

          Amen

          by peter warren ·

          In reply to can’t use the auto industry

          Thanks for your comments and thank heaven there are others who see the route cause of our economic decline. While so many are busy blaming unions and workers, and mindlessly repeating mantras about the sanctity of “free” markets, it’s refreshing to see responsibility put where it belongs: on the same corporate shortsightedness that has ruined both steel and autos, and which now is destroying the information industry in the US.

          The truth is, if our markets were truly free, we’d be able to build a sounder, saner, more socially responsible economy. But as long as corporate payoffs buy our legislators and presidents, we’re destined to decline. Why can’t more of you see this? We have the power to improve ourselves both individually and collectively.

    • #3100541

      telecom workers have a union

      by decimumaximus ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I wonder if telecom workers union would be interested in the IT feild? we could just join and wouldn’t need to wait.

      • #3101097

        Or there’s this

        by boogaloodude ·

        In reply to telecom workers have a union

        I’ve got a friend who works for the Operating Engineers Union, but she’s an office administrator and therefore belongs to another union altogether. I’m based in the Milwaukee area, so the only number I’ve got is that of the local “Office and Professional Employee Intl. Union” and that is 414-771-9730. All you really have to do is ask Dawn what is involved. Those of you against, don’t bother, all those who are at least slightly interested, give her a call and see what she’s got to say. There Problem solved, now let’s get on to more important matters like Niels Bookclub!!

    • #3100960

      Calling you out

      by cactus pete ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Squaredge:

      I’d like to see a reference for this want ad to which you refer.

      Oh, and maybe a little feedback to the thread you started.

      With other posts to other threads at this caliber:
      http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-11179-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=184209&messageID=1893436

      and

      http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-11189-0.html?forumID=3&threadID=183755&messageID=1893683

      This person needs to calm down, and get a little better education himself. A college degree just to be promoted? Hell, I want the best person working for me, not just the one with the highest level of post graduate education.

      And how does this guy think that ICQ is the standard for telecommuting?

      I think you’re lacking, that’s why you’re not getting the good jobs. Degree and certs or not – if you can’t do the job, you won’t get promoted and you won’t get a better job elsewhere.

      You think unionizing will help you? Then you think the poorest stereotype of unions is the best you can attain.

      Sad.

      • #3102131

        Read Squaredge’s other discussions.

        by ontheropes ·

        In reply to Calling you out

        I generally don’t agree with your particular position in this discussion but your remark, “this person needs to calm down, and get a little better education himself,” is pretty good.

        Having an education doesn’t make people intelligent though. Being taught something doesn’t mean you learn it.
        I think it’s sad too that most of the people writing responses in this discussion might not be able to write coherent, pertinent inter-office memos.

        “What’d you say about my grammar? You haven’t even met my grammar!”

    • #3102193

      Not the solution.

      by ontheropes ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      It’s not just the IT industry. In the early 90’s there were many jobs that paid more than what those same jobs pay today. Relatively speaking the early 60’s were actually better times for the working man. One person working per household could afford to buy a house, a new car, raise and educate their children and invest for their retirement.
      There aren’t a lot of jobs today where one person is able to do all of that successfully. There are very few American companies that can afford to be loyal to their employees when they face such stiff competition from the work that is allowed to be offshored. Workers Unions aren’t going to solve the problems that the US Legislators have allowed and, in fact, created.
      I live in the heart of Union country and don’t know of any American owned Union plant that isn’t struggling to survive.
      Business is war. When the US began to have a trade defecit with foreign countries, like Japan, it has allowed those countries to prosper at US expense. Japan received over $1B per day from the US in the early 80’s. Japanese nationals now own 95% of the real estate in Hawaii.China gets much more than $1B today. Since NAFTA and Chinas elevated trade status foreign nationals have bought over $3T of US real estate. Unions aren’t the answer. Education and immediate legislation are but it’s probably too late. You want fries with that?

      • #3273719

        education and repeal of legislation

        by absolutely ·

        In reply to Not the solution.

        cut taxes, and the foolish pet projects in earmarks sent to every single district. Because some of those corrupt projects go to your district does not mean that your district [b]benefits[/b] from earmarks. The waste is spread across all 50 states, keeping taxes unnecessarily high across all 50 states, preventing more private, productive, [b]proven[/b] competent employers from employing more.

        End all earmarks & support Senator Tom Coburn.

    • #3272456

      By all means!…

      by rm3mpc ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      … accelerate the transfer of your job to India.

    • #3272427

      All IT jobs would go to India in a month, you twit!

      by absolutely ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Why do you think the captains of industry are currently outsourcing (only 10% of call center jobs, by the way, you twit) as much as they are? Is it because India’s communism is so wonderful and their workers are all just as knowledgeable, or is it because so many North American employees are not workers, but money pits?

      I’m willing to [b]work[/b] for a living.

      Get the hell out of my way!

      • #3272413

        Close, but a little skewed

        by scifiman ·

        In reply to All IT jobs would go to India in a month, you twit!

        Yes, some very small percentage of jobs (which sounds huge in the media) has/is going overseas. Some of that is also returning. Labor is lower there, but it’s rising fast which may help slow down the job drain all by itself. India, of course, is the worlds largest democracy, and just like the U.S., has wealth, a middle class, and the poor. [The poor and middle class aren’t getting any support in the US either, so don’t cast fowl looks at other countries until we clean up our own mess!] India and China also have a big push on for math, science, etc. education and the population to take advantage of it. Education reform here is just so-so.

        And your other point, yes, American’s want big pay, more holiday’s, etc. But the real problem is we want to live big- usually more than our paychecks allow. I suggest that everyone here that has posted so far as pro-union would find a lot of extra money in the bank if they didn’t spend it all first. Some Euro nations have tons of holidays- now they’re trying to get workers back to work and rebuild their stagnant economies.

        • #3273796

          Their reasons for their irrationality

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Close, but a little skewed

          are not my problem. The results may be, if they succeed in driving the price of their marginal competence too high.

      • #3272409

        CEO’s outsource / Corporate Citizenship

        by too old for it ·

        In reply to All IT jobs would go to India in a month, you twit!

        because slave labor is cheaper to the bottom line. Supporting communism abroad is only a means to an end. End of corporate civics lesson.

        “Shareholder value” is code for “destroy the middle class so that they live in poverty and realize that we the rich are their betters”.

        • #3272374

          Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

          by scifiman ·

          In reply to CEO’s outsource / Corporate Citizenship

          Sounds like you really are “Too Old For IT”. The new jobs created in, for instance, India, is creating a new affluent class for 20-somethings over there. Often they have some experience with lifestyle from working in the US, and now fancy cars, night clubs, higher rents, etc. are taking off in the tech center areas. Outsourced jobs are not going to “slave labor”. Before you go spouting off decades-old party lines, educate yourself about the new realities.

          And there is nothing wrong with shareholder value. There is also nothing stopping YOU from being one of those shareholders getting the value. Do you have a 401K, mutual fund, stock? You ARE a shareholder. Do you want it’s value to go up or down. You can’t have it both ways. Nothing stopping you from being rich in this country, except you. Go read The Automatic Millionaire and other personal finance books. Learn, and fix your spending habits so you aren’t in your envisioned impoverished middle class. Don’t pretend to be a victim where everything is beyond your control.

        • #3273731

          “Supporting communism abroad”

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to CEO’s outsource / Corporate Citizenship

          Good point. Communism is slavery. Cutting all relations with all communist nations would be better, but taking that [b]moral[/b] position during this discussion about [b]competition[/b] being harmful to American employees is ironic, to say it kindly.

          And bad point. Shareholder value is code for nothing. It means the dollar value, per share, of the shareholder’s property.

          I wonder about the poor who act so certain that the rich have “rigged the game”: if you know it’s rigged, why can’t you use the rigging to your advantage? No, I’m not falling for your hard luck stories.

      • #3273533

        Get the hell out of my way!

        by neilb@uk ·

        In reply to All IT jobs would go to India in a month, you twit!

        Walk round me. I’m busy.

        Oh. And be quiet about it!

        • #3272139

          Witty.

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Get the hell out of my way!

          But in the context of this discussion, hell no. When wages exceed what the market will bear, jobs go to countries where the price of labor is reasonable, or the jobs disappear altogether.

          In all seriousness, to anybody who truly wants to inflate their pay via collectivism instead of by improving themselves in order to [b]deserve[/b] more money according to the [b]free[/b] market: get the hell out of my way, you pathetic trash!

        • #3272122

          It was mereley a comment

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Witty.

          on your new tag-line “Get the hell…” which I’ve seen a couple of times, not on your thoughts about unions. Nothing unfriendly about it, merely a comment on what happens when you meet yourself – or a close approximation – coming the other way. But then, that rarely – if ever – happens with rational beings?

          😀

        • #3271960

          That’s cool.

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to It was mereley a comment

          Although I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “when you meet yourself – or a close approximation – coming the other way”, I didn’t think [b]you[/b] were being unfriendly. I was just being careful that the serious message did not become confused with your humor. Theft is not something that amuses me. Neilb does amuse me, frequently!

    • #3273730

      What about the Union?

      by luther49 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Have you done your research on the Unions yet? Yes, you can make great money belonging to a Union, but it will even become more difficult to work for companies or firms. You cannot force the companies or firms to accept Union labor. Most of the gifted individuals, which consist of .0005 percent of the earth’s population do not want the constrains of being part of Union labor. Unions are basically to help the non bargaining employees. Since the labor laws have changed many of the things that are offered by the union is offered by Federal and State governments. It’s it funny that the similar scenario can be observed by watching the differences between the Microsoft Corporation (Microsoft Windows Vs. SuSe or Red Hat (Linux). Open source verse propitiatory source. Yes, there are many things that I have learned because of the open source code. I hope you find the answers and share it with us on the Net.

    • #3273590

      19 years in a union and you are wrong !

      by tony hopkinson ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Unions were at least in the UK brought in to combat the truly atrocious conditions that workers had to deal with. Only one of those conditions was remuneration, there were far more important ones , such as not being maimed or dead, terminated without reason or redress etc. One of the things unions got us was legislation to force employers to a minimum standard of conditions. In fact good employers exceed those standards now, because they’ve seen that it helps them.
      Unfortunately as unions gained power they became political, politicians invaded them. Unions lost their purpose and became vehicles for the self agrandisemnent of a tiny minority.
      So I’m afraid before you could recapture their original purpose things would have to become much worse. In my opinion we are heading towards this situation but we are not there yet. At the monent if you join a union you are simply changing which asshole is in charge. Union leadership aren’t us they are those who want to steal the mantle of them.

      Your wage demand said everything, it’s not realistic, it would damage the membership (IT employees). You are only looking at yourself, and that’s not what unions were meant to be about, they were us not me.

      I’d be happy to join a union, but not one where you are at the top, because you don’t have my interests at heart because you don’t feel that my interests are in your interests.

      If you did, you’d have suggested a rate that kept us both employed on a living wage that kept the industry we are engaged in alive. Your $50 an hour would put me on welfare and you don’t f’ing care. So don’t ask me to pay you to put me out of a job and give you a salary increase.

      Socialism run by asocialists is capitalism in disguise.

      Footnote
      As I understand it, employment conditions in the US are far worse than those I enjoy in europe, personally I put that down to the fact that as nation you think it’s perfectly OK to have every freedom you fight for abrogated as soon as you step on your employer’s premises.

      That’s how it looks from the outside anyway.

      So come back when you’re argument is to safeguard your colleague’s employment on a long term basis. ie until retirement. I don’t expect you to achieve it, but I do expect you to try. If you don’t and aren’t, you don’t want a union, you want a personal sinecure.

      • #3273501

        Tony I have 19 yrs Union and 15 yrs without

        by richard ·

        In reply to 19 years in a union and you are wrong !

        It is a sad thing that such and accurate discripton has to come from outside our own conutry.
        Tony, you seem to see the picture clearly, the problem to me is I don’t know how to show it tho those who do not know the hardship and don’t even know they are charging at high speed down a dark tunnel. There is know light in the near future bacause that tunnel has a wall in it.
        I wish there it were not so, but working conditions ans freedoms will probably need to be so bad before the majority will wake up.

        Yes, I have worked 15 years without a union, after working 19 years with one. I am doing fine, but I know it is a result of the progress made by the Unions and I see it eroding, at this point in time employeers pay and treat my generation a little better then the younger ones. What will happen in 20 more years? I think I know, Lucky me, I will be out of the work force by then and enjoy the deflated economy with my earned assets that I got from the union years. I will be forced to take advantage of those who don’t listen now. They will stay at the bottom and the bottom will get lower.
        It seems to be a new world. Less of us will move up.

        • #3272058

          The US unions

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Tony I have 19 yrs Union and 15 yrs without

          get terrible press over here. They always seem to involve corruption, the mafia etc.
          Ours generally get labelled as communists. Whatever the truth, unless the membership is prepared to make personal sacrifices for the good of the whole, it isn’t a union.

          While the workfore is at the beck and call of capital nothing will ever change. Flipping the relationship on it’s head and have labour hire capital would redress the situation, but the people who have capital now are in control and it’s as sure as my **** is brown they aren’t going to allow that to happen. On top of that we would all end up with less personal wealth as essentially everything would be co-operative/community based, so how do you sell that to a bunch of people who’s prime goal is unenlightened self interest.

        • #3087753

          Focus on things other than IT too

          by don’tquityourdayjob ·

          In reply to Tony I have 19 yrs Union and 15 yrs without

          Maybe you are not getting ahead because of other things. The following could be an example:

          You posted “There is know light….” when it should have been written “There is no light…”

          When you communicate, especially internally, make sure you write in the correct context. Try to spell words correctly and use them correctly.

          It can (and will) be used against you by others as an excuse to exclude you from being promoted.

          I know this is an “informal forum” but it can be used as a place for everyone to practice some of their communication skills, which is sadly lacking in IT professionals.

          I know someone will probably “blast” this post but it does not alter the message. Business communications is a reality and we have to deal with that reality or fall behind and stay at the bottom.

          The choice is ours to make.

        • #3088961

          Good one !

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Focus on things other than IT too

          Classic management put down.

          What did that shop floor oik say Tarquin ?

          I have no idea Timothy, I could not understand his arcsent.

          That’s a deliberate mis-spelling by the way, and I believe it communicated my point admirably.

    • #3273271

      Unions have the power to RUIN this world!

      by richard kirk ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Look at what the idealist folls did to the British car industry! Unions are just another puss filled boil in the side of progress.

    • #3273187

      Unionization not for the IT industry

      by midwestcio ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I strongly believe that unions play an important role in this country for certain industries. IT is not one of them. I recently hired an employee away from a unionized IT shop. When asked why he wanted to leave his old position he stated that his scope for growth and access to new technologies were limited by the “union classification” of his position. For example, he was very interested in receiving his CCNA to help further his career goals. His union classification did not allow him access to CCNA training or the ability to work on routers. How sad. If your staff is not being properly conpensated, trained or motivated look inward not outward to unionization. I want the maximum flexibility for my staff. I am responsible to enusre that my staff is properly trained, fairly compensated and has options for growth. the last thing I would want is to be told that “that’s not in my job classification”. I can certainly sympathize with the author of the original post. My point wounld be that we need better management overseeing IT and unionization will place a barrier between management and staff.

    • #3273876

      The day I am forced to decide……….

      by fooser dan the network man ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      whether or not to join an IT union is the day I decide to change career fields. I don’t need no stinkin’ union to go to bat for me. If my boss is being an a-hole, I look for another job instead of whining to the union. If I don’t feel as though I am being paid enough, I either convince management that I deserve a raise or I look for another job instead of crying to the union. This country was founded on rugged individualism – that’s what I do, that’s who I am. Leave the unions to those who can’t hold down a job or work hard/smart enough to get a raise on their own.

      • #3272878

        No IT Unions …..

        by evisscerator ·

        In reply to The day I am forced to decide……….

        I’m with you on this one. An IT Union would suck as bad a being on Welfare. Besides, don’t we pay Microsoft – Novell – Sun and other IT whoremongers enough without having to dish out more to IT Wannabe’s who wouldn’t, couldn’t manage our interests but instead look for raking in more funds out of our pockets to feed their endless GREEDY lives ?

      • #3272761

        I’m sure you don’t compete in my arena

        by richard ·

        In reply to The day I am forced to decide……….

        I looked at you bio and you may do ok, but your history doesn’t look as smart as you write.

        We’ll see how you do in the long run.
        If I were you I’d remove the printer setup experience, it pulls down your value.
        I have more then a dozen current certs, $100k in my computer lab, my education budget is 10-15k each year. My first career was building buildings, small business (50 employees). I had 19 yrs in a Union. I’ve been building networks for 15 years, No Union. I am sure, you are benifiting from unions now and you need a union to help you future and more so, the future of you sons and dauthters.
        I can hold a job, I am an over achiever, I have my retirement made. I would be very happy to join an IT union.

        • #3087979

          I’m sure you don’t compete in your area, either

          by 50kilroy ·

          In reply to I’m sure you don’t compete in my arena

          Not with a hundred kilobuck computer lab and such a large edu budget. You must have been born independently wealthy.
          I work for a multi-billion dollar international company which has over 10,000 employees yet we do not have a lab like that. We get along very well with quite a bit less and include software and hardware testing for upgrades and new applications.
          Printer setup and customization, btw, is one of the very skill that we need (and thus require) in our technical support staff. Why would printer skills/experience lower one’s value?

        • #3088834

          Could you qualify for his job?

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to I’m sure you don’t compete in your area, either

          Could you do what he does?

          And if he was born wealthy, how does that bother you?

        • #3086903

          Could you qualify for his job? YOU BET I CAN!

          by 50kilroy ·

          In reply to Could you qualify for his job?

          I’ve been working with computers as a professional since 1975. I’ve worked with ac, digital mainframe, personal computers such as TI99, Commie, TRS-x series, Apple, MAC, Big Blue, the clones, printers since then, O/S from DOS 2.0, Windows from v1.0 thru XP, Novell, Unix, Posix, Linux, Apple O/S thru O/S-X. I’ve set up Token-ring and Ethernet on thinnet networks and on twisted-pair, wireless, VOIP in 1889, ….. Yeah, I can do his job. Twice.
          Born wealthy? Fine. Just don’t tell me that you have built a 100kilobuck lab like you _need_ it. That’s just bragging. The best computer lab in the universe won’t help an induhvidual who doesn’t know what he is doing or who hires it done by professionals and then claims the credit.

        • #3086649

          I think you’re BSing us.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Could you qualify for his job? YOU BET I CAN!

          What is this “digital mainframe” nonsense? Mainframes are computers, and are all thus “digital” by definition. Are you making up terms to try to impress us with your knowledge? There is no operating sytem by the name “Posix” — the term POSIX refers to a standard of OS behavior, and it’s a standard developed from UNIX.

          There are definitely instances where a business needs a $100k computer lab. If you’re not aware of this, you’re not paying attention.

        • #3086626

          Re: BSing: Digital Computing

          by ralford100 ·

          In reply to I think you’re BSing us.

          Perhaps, all of the Analogs got together to form a union, but then they couldn’t get any work done efficiently so the Digitals took over. Ya think?

        • #3086603

          re:Re: BSing: Digital Computing

          by 50kilroy ·

          In reply to I think you’re BSing us.

          Thanks Ralford100. I couldn’t have said it better. Our friend, Apotheon, has ignored the entire genre of analog computing. I will reiterate that I have indeed worked with analog mainframe computers. Computer does NOT equal ‘digital’. His nitpicking extended _almost_ to my error in that post..I, due to fatfingering, ran VOIP in 1889, a hundred years earlier than I did. He also seems to think that while POSIX is not an O/S (he’s right), that Windows _is_ an O/S (he’s wrong. Windows is a shell;always has been, always will be. No matter what M$ says about it)
          O well. I guess a noob needs that kind of thing.
          As for a business needing a .1Mbuck computer lab, why? Are they designing VLSI? Are they running a server farm? Are they running a credit reporting agency?
          A ‘puter lab of that magnitude is just ridiculous for a common mfg, var, retailer, or warehouser.
          for a bit of history:
          My first job in ‘computing’ was to fetch the patch cables for the programmer while he set up equations on the AD/5. The AD/5, I believe, qualifies as one of the analog mainframes on size alone, if nothing else.

        • #3086447

          oh fer cryin out loud

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I think you’re BSing us.

          Hm. I spoke hastily. I should not have said that all computers were digital: I should have said that the default of computers is to be digital, and thus referring to a mainframe as “digital” is superfluous, redundant, and very strange. Your reference to working on “digital mainframes” indicates to me that you probably haven’t, since nobody I’ve ever run across who worked on mainframes referred to them as “digital mainframes”. They’ve only made reference to the model (AS/400, for instance).

          The application of electric/electronic analog computing is and always has been an extremely rare thing, so unless you’re contrasting your mainframe work with using a sliderule (a mechanical analog computer), you sound like someone who’s slinging jargon without knowing what he’s talking about.

          “[i]I will reiterate that I have indeed worked with analog mainframe computers.[/i]”
          Reiterating would require that you’d iterated once before. Since you hadn’t, you’re talking out of your arse.

          “[i]I, due to fatfingering, ran VOIP in 1889[/i]”
          It was obviously a typo. I’m not that petty, and there were better targets to address in your statements.

          “[i]He also seems to think that while POSIX is not an O/S (he’s right), that Windows _is_ an O/S[/i]”
          Funny, on one hand you’re saying I didn’t identify any actual problems in your post, and on the other hand you’re agreeing with one of my statements of the problems in your post. Stop contradicting yourself. Meanwhile, the various Windows releases are indeed OSes: an OS includes the operation of the interface. Would you say that Solaris (for instance) isn’t an OS because you have to interact with it through a shell? Windows includes everything from the interface down to the kernel. Windows, these days, does [b]not[/b] run on a DOS kernel — it runs on a Windows kernel. You’re trying to split hairs, and you just end up cutting off your fingers instead.

          By the way, ralford100 sounded to me like he was ridiculing you. Do your reading comprehension skills really lack so badly that you couldn’t figure that out?

          Why don’t you provide us with some kind of link to something related to this AD/5 on which you worked? I’d like to see that.

        • #3086198

          I can see..

          by 50kilroy ·

          In reply to I think you’re BSing us.

          that those who are against unionizing are not about to be swayed, so I will stop trying.
          Have a nice life.

          Never try to teach a pig to sing. It just annoys the pig and frustrates you

    • #3088166

      Migrations

      by paolo2k6 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Where all used to corporate and technical migrations so why not techie migrations! if we all went to the place cities that have the highest salaries and stayed until they became depressed, we’d all make money because even Iowa would pay a premium to get us back!

      • #3087983

        Migrations won’t work

        by 50kilroy ·

        In reply to Migrations

        Sorry, that just won’t work. There are too many MCSE paper tigers out there. As sure as a qualified person leaves, a “hi-skooler” will take his place at dirt wages.
        The employers DO NOT CARE. Most see I.T. as a necessary evil and outsource as soon as possible anyway.
        The only way for us to get justice is to form a nationwide union, institute picket lines (which other unions will not cross), and negotiate for fair treatment and apprenticeship/journeyman/master requirements to work as I.T.

        I.T. WORKERS UNITE!

        • #3087892

          Welcome to Amerika!

          by ralford100 ·

          In reply to Migrations won’t work

          Good idea! Then, if EVERYBODY in the nation joins a union, we can adopt the hammer and sickle as our logo! We’ll call it Amerika.. Who needs capitalism anyhow.. communism works great.. right?

          And, for those who don’t join our union, we’ll call them “scabs”, yell at them, insult them, THROW stuff at them, and sometimes, we’ll push them around a bit (it’s for the greater good!)

          In order to keep our union strong, we’ll make sure we extend our projects by “accidentally” losing files. We’ll plant bugs in our software; and defects in our hardware so that we’ll be needed to fix them. Perhaps get OT for it too!

          We’ll form a committee to decide who can become an apprentice, and how much we can extort from them; uh.. I mean how much they’ll have to pay.

          Yup.. what a wonderful idea you have.

        • #3088419

          Welcome to Amerika!

          by 50kilroy ·

          In reply to Welcome to Amerika!

          Slow down there, Hoss. I’m not talking about a government take over. It’s too late anyway since the Socialists did that in 1963. What I am advocating is only that a section of the American workforce band together and require proper pay for the work. Sure, it’s socialism, but you are accustomed to that by now.
          While things would be a little rocky at first, the outcome would be an increase in quality for all concerned; the employers would get seasoned, skillful technical workers, the consumers would get a better, more robust product, etc.
          I.T. WORKERS UNITE NOW!

        • #3089457

          Amerika – Middle Earth?

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to Welcome to Amerika!

          Is this fantasy happening in Middle Earth? Are we wainting for the Return of the King?

          NO good can ever come of collective endeavors no matter how well intentioned.

          When the needs of the many are dominant over the needs of the few, it is the beginning of anarchy.

          I wish to work for myself, not for everyone else.

          If I decide to offer support to slackers or people in true need it should be my choice, not the choice of a politician!

        • #3089305

          Say What??===Amerika – Middle Earth

          by 50kilroy ·

          In reply to Amerika – Middle Earth?

          May I presume that you _like_ living here in “Amerika”?
          The U.S.A. was and is a collective effort.
          Maybe you should get yourself out and head on over to France or Quebec or somewhere.
          Noone has mentioned politicians as being part of a union. Unions are most definitely not a governmental body, they are, however, a good tool to help protect the worker from greed and bias.
          Reference AK Steel in Ohio. Check their record and get back with us.
          I.T. WORKERS UNITE NOW!

    • #3088109

      ABSOLUTELY!!

      by smtcne ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      COULD NOT AGREE MORE!!!

    • #3087984

      “the rise of the factories fall”

      by whiteknight_ ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      This discussion reminded of this great old song, thought I’d share the lyrics for our younger members.
      ————————————-
      PART OF THE UNION
      (John Ford / Richard Hudson)
      The Strawbs

      Now I’m a union man
      Amazed at what I am
      I say what I think that the company stinks
      yes I’m a union man

      When we meet in the local hall
      I’ll be voting with them all
      With a hell of a shout it’s out brothers out
      And the rise of the factories fall

      Chorus

      Oh you don’t get me I’m part of the union
      You don’t get me I’m part of the union
      You don’t get me I’m part of the union
      Till the day I die, till the day I die

      As a union man I’m wise
      To the lies of the company spies
      And I don’t get fooled by the factory rules
      Cause I always read between the lines

      And I always get my way
      If I strike for higher pay
      When I show my card to the Scotland Yard
      This is what I say

      chorus

      Before the union did appear
      My life was half as clear
      Now I’ve got the power to the working hour
      And every other day in the year

      So though I’m a working man
      I can ruin the governments plan
      Though I’m not too hard, the sight of my card
      Makes me some kind of superman

      Chorus

      • #3087981

        yep, that did bring back memories

        by 50kilroy ·

        In reply to “the rise of the factories fall”

        Where in the world did you find the lyrics? I haven’t heard that in years.

        BTW, your’e management, aren’t you?

        • #3087857

          Management, HA!

          by whiteknight_ ·

          In reply to yep, that did bring back memories

          yes, I loved this song, thought it was funny.
          Tried management years ago, did OK but determined my main strength was technical ability so back down to the ranks I went.

        • #3088842

          Manglement..no

          by 50kilroy ·

          In reply to Management, HA!

          Hahaha..I’ve had a few brief forays into management. Didn’t like it at all. I’m now a happy tech type finally with a supervisor who understands that not everyone wants to be a manager.

    • #3087955

      Worked for Auto Industry – oh wait

      by sirlanse ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      The Detroit auto industry has collaped under
      the weight of unions. If you want to speed up
      the exodus of IT to India and China, go ahead
      and join a union. Otherwise, do good work,
      bust ass, go to that interview and when they
      tell you $12, laugh in thier faces and walk out.
      “There is not enough money to do it right the first time, but there is always enough to do it over.”

      • #3088767

        Half of it

        by cactus pete ·

        In reply to Worked for Auto Industry – oh wait

        The unions and management are equally to blame.

      • #3088651

        Scarce + new = valuable; plentiful + old = not

        by raelayne ·

        In reply to Worked for Auto Industry – oh wait

        The bottom line is this: these skills are no longer scarce or new. As many have pointed out, newbies just out of school have the most current skills, and they are cheap. And willing to work long hours. And a bunch of stuff is automated now. So we all have to live with the fact that skills or knowledge that used to make us really special and valuable is no longer either. Companies can get folks to do it for $12 an hour, so that’s what “it” is worth. This isn’t peculiar to IT; when H&R Block and TurboTax came on the scene, tax lawyers and accountants lost out. When Travelocity appeared, travel agents went out of business. Magazines and newspapers are going out of business because people get their news online. People can copy and share music online, so record companies are out of business. Trappers moved on when the wildlife was all gone …

        Sit around and talk about the good old days or move on. It’s pretty straight-forward, I think. And it doesn’t mean that what you did wasn’t valuable, or that IT is unimportant today. It just means that things have changed. We can change, too, or we can sit around and wonder what the heck happened. And we’ll have become the cranky old people we used to make fun of when we were young …

        • #3088391

          Scarce + new = valuable; plentiful + old = not (reply)

          by cslape9 ·

          In reply to Scarce + new = valuable; plentiful + old = not

          I would dare say that you have an “uninformed” view of how thing “really” are.

          Us OLD IT PEOPLE are not useless things to be tossed aside because of the newer things that have come along.

          I think you have no respect for the elder IT people, who have paid the price of losing their families, friends and so on in order to be on top of their game.

          Employers of years ago took advantage of our knowledge and skills, not paying us more for what we have learned on our own, on our own time away from work.

          Though I don’t get to use alot of the old style DOS commands anymore (because of Windows and Linux), I still remember them as plain as the day I did learn them. It is not that they are out of date if you will, its just that people don’t use that kind of hardware anymore. But, once in a while, we find one of these systems around and it may need a tweak or two.

          Anyone can teach a monkey to push a button or in this case, take an IT A+ or MCSE test, but without hands on experience and working knowledge of the material covered, its as useless as the paper its printed on.

          My original suggestion was to ditch the CERTIFICATIONS in favor of returning to the old feudal system of Apprenticeships. At least this way, the Apprentice would be watched and observed and credentialed by a Master in the skills taught.

        • #3087582

          Can a beaver stop the Mississippi?

          by larry, ·

          In reply to Scarce + new = valuable; plentiful + old = not

          Excellent post, raelayne.

          Artificial price and wage supports never work well. Supply & demand aspects of economics and market forces are tough for anything or anyone to stand against, including unions.

          One of the few constants in history is change. The I/S industry, like all industries, is changing and people must adapt. But remember, people had to adapt when steam drills, bulldozers, and robotic assembly machines took their jobs. In the end, old jobs often become obsolete and low-paying, while new, higher paying jobs are created. To try to stop this natural progression by creating new unions would be akin to a beaver trying to stop the flow of the Mississippi River.

          Larry

        • #3090472

          Beaver can stop the river

          by dusterman ·

          In reply to Can a beaver stop the Mississippi?

          Ah yes my young whipper snapper …………
          .
          A determined beaver can do it ……… the point at which the dam is built is the determining factor ……….
          .
          No …. we shouldn’t subsidise the wages as it will eventually lead to over priced goods , but we could start by having “groups” like they used to have in the trades [ 1700 or 1800’s ] and then we can regulate how much each of us independent business “folks” charge for the same service or part …………
          Darned if I can remember the name for these groups ……… maybe someone here can remember .
          .
          I was just told they were called “guilds” …. ?
          .
          So anyhow ,,,,,,,, just how and why did “they” go away ??????
          .
          As always ………….
          .
          Keep on ……… keepin on 🙂

    • #3087951

      No thank you!

      by wildbear63 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Sorry — I have been in several unions (non-IT related) and I don’t care for them. PLUS — the only thing a cert proves to me is that you can study and memorize. The majority of the Microsoft certified IT people I have met don’t know the real meaning of support and couldn’t fix a Windows problem without the study manual in one hand. Oh — and by the way — I CAME INTO THE IT FIELD WITHOUT A CERTIFICATION. I feel that to learn this best is in the school of crash and burn — not listen and learn. Training and studying help but they are NOT key. Attitude means a lot in holding down any job.

    • #3087896

      Adding a vote without reading all 500+ posts.

      by sjohnson175 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Not just no but HELL NO.

      I’ll fight the anti-individualistic unions until my dying breath.

      If you want to be worth no more than the slackest person in your job then go the union route.

    • #3087872

      One Ring to Rule them all?

      by dsabbott ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Not! I believe that the conceptual intent of unions is a good one. But I also believe that unions are a very very bad idea for practical reasons.

      I have worked with many corporations on both the large and small scale. I have also worked within the realms of Government and Education. The absolute worst scenarios I have been put into were all created over time by incompetent managers. Technology moves fast, some people move slow. Unionized IT departments have been the worst off because of their unwillingness to change themselves or care about THE USERS OF THE NETWORK! They always feel “safe” even when things are falling apart around them. The unions ability to hinder the ongoing training and/or the removal of incompetent individuals really brings the efficiency of a technology department to its knees. A technology department needs to be a system not unlike the ones they are responsible for where the slowest links are constantly being upgraded. You have to be able to accept anything that is thrown your way in order to do anything with it. (Like each actor does on the comedy show “Whose Line Is It Anyway?” – Think about it!)

      Although I have met many people that are good at this and some of them work in unionized places, I have never even heard of a union that would conform to the concept of fast and efficient people removal. (And if the person truly was really good at their job, they won’t have any problem at all finding a position with a better company!)

    • #3088764

      There are pros and cons…

      by cheerstork ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      …to unionization.
      I hear you loud and clear!

      Unions, unfortunately, have intrinsic ills. But then again, things couldn’t get any worse. Perhaps, whith a union we might be even a tiny bit better!!

      Here is another point to ponder:

      http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-11181-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=190118&messageID=1963014

      • #3088433

        Pros hate unions…

        by absolutely ·

        In reply to There are pros and cons…

        because con-men run them.

        • #3088305

          AND….

          by ralford100 ·

          In reply to Pros hate unions…

          members get brainwashed into believing that the union is the only way to go. Union membership is like a cult; there’s no way to talk reason w/a member because they’re right, you’re wrong. Period.

        • #3088293

          ROTFLMAO

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to AND….

          If that problem is limited to union members, there’s a lot more come on this site than I realised.

        • #3088199

          Re: ROTFLMAO

          by ralford100 ·

          In reply to ROTFLMAO

          Of course it’s not.. it’s all over the place: politics, religions, unions. When you get groups that use unethical business methods to get their way, you have choas.

          Just like I don’t support democrats or republicans 100%, or support radical religious groups, I don’t support unions. I feel that when any radical group becomes too big (or loud), chaos ensues.

        • #3089442

          You forgots some groups

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Re: ROTFLMAO

          management and businessmen. Not teh first port of call for ethics either.

          Don’t go mad, I’m a brit and the english word union and the american one are a tad different in meaning, and wildly different in historical context.

    • #3088702

      Great idea — ask auto workers

      by raelayne ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I live in Michigan. I say ask the folks at Ford and GM what they think of your idea.

      • #3088640

        Unions have outlived their usefulness

        by navy moose ·

        In reply to Great idea — ask auto workers

        I had the displeasure of being required to join a union when I was in high school working for a retail store chain.

        I found the unions to be corrupt, self serving, and only cared about themselves. They took a lot of money out of my pocket for zero return. The one and only time I went to them for assistance, I was treated rudely.

        My grandmother told me of the good things her union did in the 1930s regarding the sweatshops she worked in. But, times have certainly changed.

        As far as I’m concerned the UAW has killed Detriot. The NEA has turned the public education system into a shadow of what it was when my parents went through it. In short, unions sicken me and should never be allowed into the IT field.

        • #3088306

          Look deeper

          by peter warren ·

          In reply to Unions have outlived their usefulness

          It’s not the unions. It’s the unadulterated greed, the blind faith in “America”, the unwillingness to see beyond our noses that has damaged US industries. Like corporations, unions are made up of people. It’s the people who need to wake up. As long as we allow ourselves to be snowed by neo-conservative faith healers, we can only go deeper into decline.

      • #3088313

        Look at the rest of the picture

        by peter warren ·

        In reply to Great idea — ask auto workers

        The fate of the US auto industry has as much to do with corporate and union management that lacks courage and imagination. It’s a fact that the Big 3 auto makers, along with union leadership, have fought every attempt at improving the safety and efficiency of their products. And we can’t forget the US oil companies that have fought every attempt to develop alternative energy sources, as well as energy conservation. And last but not least, let’s not absolve our wonderful neo-consevative leadership, which seems to enjoy fiddling while Rome burns.

        • #3089019

          Meanwhile the unions were fighting for better cars, right?

          by raelayne ·

          In reply to Look at the rest of the picture

          The point isn’t who’s responsible for the debacle. There’s plenty of blame to go around. I have two questions (other than why am I sicking my nose into this NASCAR tail-gate party):

          1. To paraphrase Dr. Phil on the ability of unions to protect workers: how’s it working for them?

          2. OK, short-sighted management was focused on short-ternm profits and lacked the imagination to compete. I’m assuming the unions were focused on creating better, more competitive products? Were the unions part of the solution to the problem then? Or were the unions self-serving as well, attempting to enforce a “keep doing it the way we’ve always done it” mentality that rewarded longevity rather than creativity and talent? That protected the status quo?

          It reminds me so much of the teachers who bemoan the sorry state of education while fighting tooth and nail any attempt to reward results, quality, or talent.

          I come from a union family and I understand the value of unions. But our unions are corrupt, self-serving organizations that stand in the way of growth and acheivement. It’s a sorry thing.

      • #3087779

        Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

        by pkr9 ·

        In reply to Great idea — ask auto workers

        I’d say they should ask management avout how long time ‘the big three’ think they can churn out the same old stuff. The US car is unsellabel anywhere than in the US, and even there you see a LOT of much better Japanese and European cars.
        Saw what they presented at the lates Detroit Motor Show? Remakes of old successes and a SUV with the looks – and size – of a locomotive.
        All this at a time when oil prices skyrocket, the unrest and instability in oilproducing middle east rises, Chinas demand of oil rises, where Toyota (unskilled low-cost japanese remember?) owns the market of alternative energy cars.

        Don’t blame the unions for management blunders.

    • #3089710

      Give me a break

      by tmcclure ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      What is your Master’s Degree in? Certainly not economics. There is a reason union membership is falling. Unions don’t work. They keep good people from entering in an occupation. They keep cost artificially high.

      I used to work in as a merchant marine. Imagine walking into a union hall looking for a job. You go to the union hall looking for work. He tells you you need to pay 50 bucks to apply for membership. Then “you” need to find a job. Once you have a job, you have 24 hours to pay us (the union) 900 bucks for full memebership and also pay monthly dues. This was 1990. I can imagine the cost of finding and keeping a job is much higher today. I walked out of that union hall thinking this was exstortion. I had to pay them to find keep my own job. Give me a break.

    • #3087755

      Union NO!

      by member357 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      This comes up every couple of years or so. Probably a union boss trying to increase their evaporating memberships due to many years of abuse. A number of states are closed shops meaning that everyone that works there has to be a member of the Union if it is unionized. In the past I have worked at such places and I can tell you that the Union did me absolutely NO favors. They also took a lot of money in dues, even increased the dues without a vote violating their own written bylaws. They didn’t care. They did it with impunity. There was also nothing we could do about it. I tried everthing from the local police, States Attorney, even the Feds – no dice. Unionizing is like literally asking for trouble. “please send a few thugs over to jack us up.” No thanks. Just say NO! They have also put many US industries out of business – Textiles, Shoes, Electronics, Steel and soon Cars. Don’t let them ruin the IT industry too.

      Maybe unions could be outsourced to India.

    • #3087706

      Too Much Propaganda

      by memememe ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      The biggest problem I see in this thread is that both sides — the left and the right — have so filled everyone’s heads with propaganda that there’s very little good information and almost no well-informed opinions about unions floating around.

      Are unions good or bad? The answer’s clearly “yes.”

      I’ll work briefly on both sides of the argument just to prove that they are, indeed, both correct, and then move on to the solution.

      Pro: Unions can accomplish great and necessary things that we cannot accomplish individually. In the US, unions are the reason we don’t owe our souls to the company store. They were also instrumental in the implementation of child labor laws, the 40-hour work week, the creation of the minimum wage, workplace safety standards… I could go on, but you get the point. We take a lot of these things for granted, but without unions, we probably wouldn’t have them.

      Con: Unions protect the incompetant, asocial and otherwise reprehensible coworkers. I’ll cite a direct example: I knew a guy who worked in a Carrier air conditioner factory in Tennessee. He punched his foreman on the shop floor while both were on the clock. There’s no way in the world this guy should have been back the next day — instead, he should have been facing assault charges. However, his Union was strong and abused its power, so he was pretty much untouchable. It took them years to fire him, though they eventually got him when he failed to show up to work for several weeks straight without explanation. And, yes, it took several weeks for the company to have a strong enough case to try to fire him. Here’s another: A union in a glass factory in Pennsylvania successfully protected its workers’ rights to perform their duties stoned, even if doing so caused a physical risk to other human beings, who also happened to be union members.

      Here’s the bottom line on unions, folks: They’re like any other powerful and flexible tool. They can be used for good, for evil, or anything in between.

      If we want an IT union, we can have one, and we can make it do what we want, and *only* what we want. We can control it and keep it responsible.

      Of course, we can also elect idiots to head up our union and end up in a situation similar to the American automotive parts industry, where at least one union contract guarantees that the guy who cuts the grass out from gets $40 per hour to do so.

      If we choose the former, we could benefit not only ourselves, but our employers, because a union doesn’t *have* to be the enemy. That’s just traditional.

      If we choose the latter, all those nay-sayers who believe our primary effect will be to export most IT jobs to India will be 100% correct. In the process, we’ll hurt ourselves, our families *and* our companies.

      So the question really is this: If IT unionizes, what ground rules for our union should we create to ensure that it functions, as a collective bargaining agent, to improve our welfare.

      It’s become clear that unions need to be more than an opposition to management. A good union works in partnership with management to curtail abuses on *both* sides.

      Should a union ensure that the guy getting $12 an hour is actually earning a living wage? Certainly. Should it ensure that the guy who doesn’t pull his weight doesn’t stick around? You bet. Should it make sure that new hires are actually qualified? For the good of *everyone*, the answer’s yes.

      What we need isn’t mindless pro-union or anti-union statements. We’ve seen that unions can be forces for progress *and* nurseries for corruption and greed.

      If folks are serious about making an IT union, let’s hear some proposals concerning, specifically, what we need our theoretical to do.

      For the anti-union folks out there, tell us *specifically* what things unions do wrong, and let’s see if we can work out a plan that avoids them.

      Maybe we won’t find a way to make it work, but maybe we will. Either way, we won’t actually know if we don’t give it an honest airing.

      • #3087649

        A Specific Response to a Specifice Proposal

        by memememe ·

        In reply to Too Much Propaganda

        I’ll start by putting my money where my mouth is:

        The original poster to this thread suggested that the minimum pay for all IT jobs should be $50 per hour. I view this as unrealistic.

        In most rural areas in America, $20 per hour is a nice sum. If IT pros in rural areas get $20 to $30 per hour, they’re members of the middle class in good standing.

        Now, it wouldn’t surprise me if you need $50 per hour in a metropolitan area to get the same effect. So if we want to work on the issue of pay in IT, we should first examine who’s making what and where, and see what wage corrections would be good.

        The qualification of the IT person in question is also a serious consideration: The “cert monkeys” that have been referenced in this thread sure don’t deserve top pay, but skilled IT pros with track records of technical excellence and good people skills deserve to be properly rewarded for it.

        The next thing to consider is, “How much can management afford to pay IT?” Because, realistically, here’s where we’re looking at jobs being offshored, environments where folks are swamped because there aren’t enough bodies on the line, and the like.

        Here, I think, is a better idea: We should tie IT salaries to the cost of living of the areas in which the pros work and live. Your basic skilled, competant techs should receive salaries that, statistically, put them in somewhere in the middle class, and we can deteremine this through goverment census data.

        Scaling up salaries, where appropriate, should be carefully negotiated with management and gracefully accomplished, perhaps over three to five years, to avoid the destruction of the very companies where we want to work, and to prevent offshoring from being a better option for those companies than keeping IT local.

        At the same time, we should test and rate our peers to show management that we are, in fact, justified in asking for the money that we do. Potential hires should be tested, and we should also have numbers on the folks already employed.

        Low-skill techs *should* make less than the average IT pro, and those with advanced skills should make more.

        That means we need to find an objective way to measure technical competence.

        Let’s presume that such a way can be found and agreed upon by both management and IT staff. (Because arguing about the method should be another thread entirely.)

        So try this on for size: Mid-level techs, tested as competant, with appropriate workplace skills, should receive something akin to the median wage for the county or metropolitan area in which they live.

        Those new to the field or who test out to have similar skills, should make anywhere from 5 to 20 percent less based on how bad they are. Similarly, those with high technical skills should make 5 to 20 percent more.

        I say that if we make an IT union, it is critical that we successfully address this issue, and I believe the guidelines I’ve posted are reasonable and attainable, *and* I believe they’d positively impact the companies we work for.

        How’s that sound?

        • #3087587

          Stat’s Currently Exist

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to A Specific Response to a Specifice Proposal

          Computer rags publish this information on a yearly basis.
          Wages will always be adjusted based on the area cost of living in which they are being earned. They will also be influenced by the job’s complexity, skill level required, experience, size of the organization, technology required, sophistication of the organization and how many people are competing for the job.
          The more important issue would be how you would determine “pay grade”.
          What are the classifications for your IT pay scale? How do you progress from one pay grade to another? How long must you stay in a pay grade before being advanced? What are your entry level requirements? Is a college degree required, or just certs? If no college degree is required, are you classified as a blue collar or a white collar career path? What is required to go from developer to DBA?
          Let’s pick on one IT role: the DBA. What certifications do you need? Must I be a relational guru or a hierarchical guru or both? Must you be certified in DB2, IMS, Oracle, SQL Server, Ingres, MySQL, PostgreSQL, or all of them? Must you know how to write queries using inner and outer joins and other DML, or just be able to write DDL and backup and restore databases?
          All this information is factored into a job and what an organization is willing to pay to fulfill the role.
          If a person in India can fulfill the role and the organization can deal with the communication issues and the fact they are on a different timeframe and the organizations level of support does not have to be realtime, then that position will be outsourced. This will happen whether the organization has a union or not.

        • #3087544

          Re: Stats Currently Exist

          by memememe ·

          In reply to Stat’s Currently Exist

          Of course these stats currently exist. I don’t have them to hand. If you do, please post either some stats or, preferably, a link to the table.

          I agree that methods for determining pay grade are very important and should be examined. Using your DBA example, how do you think we should determine answers to your questions?

          Of courese it’s true that any corporation will offshore if driven to do so.

          So here’s the nest question: Are DBA’s receiving compensation in keeping with the revenue they generate/allow to be generated? I’ve never seen stats on this one.

          It’s possible that the majority of DBA’s are being fairly compensated. If that’s the case, then a union wouldn’t make sense for them.

          If DBA’s arent, and there’s room for scaling up their salaries before getting to the point of forcing corporations to outsource, *then* a union makes sense.

          Remember, too, that we’re looking at the possibility of a different type of union than we’re used to seeing. Unions that follow the traditional model don’t make sense and don’t work for anyone (other than themselves) any more.

          For a union to make sense in this day and age, it clearly has to have positive benefits for members, their employers, and the industry at large.

          For example, if a union were to provide policing for its own ranks — the way the American Medical Associaion claims it does but fails to do — and did not make crippling demands during contract negotiations, we might be able to find a structure that makes sense.

          My understanding of the offshoring trend is that companies do not wish to offshore at all. Certainly, their employees are against the proposition. So part and parcel of a healthy union would be its willingness to ask only for those changes that are 1) necessary, 2) beneficial to all and 3) do not force employers into positions bad enough that offshoring or understaffing look good.

          This may or may not be possible.

        • #3087520

          the only good union is a dead union, these days

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Re: Stats Currently Exist

          In the United States, unionization has become overly regulated by federal and state laws. As a result, informal (meaning: not legally registered) unions are effectively impossible to create and maintain and formal unions inevitably succumb to bureaucratic corruption, becoming a bane rather than a boon. Persistent unions are a bad idea: unionization should never have been more than a temporary fix for temporary problems.

          Unions, by their nature, consolidate the power of disparate individuals in a very few individuals. When that happens, such consolidations either give rise to imitators whose ulterior motive is that consolidation of power or they become dominated by such power-hungry people themselves. Ultimately, unions’ primary purposes mutate into self-perpetuation, resulting in a permanent “fix” to a temporary problem that long outlives its usefulness.

          It is this consolidation of power that allows lobbying for legislation that helps to perpetuate unions, and it is that legislation that essentially forces unions to grow into detrimental influences on industry.

          The effort put into organizing unions would be better spent organizing political action groups whose purpose is to begin repealing corporate law (the other side of the coin from unions), rather than to create more corporate and union law. If governmental support of the corporation as a legal entity were to evaporate, so too would the perceived need for unions.

        • #3087505

          Re: the only good union…

          by memememe ·

          In reply to the only good union is a dead union, these days

          If I replace the word “union” wherever it appears with “government” or “corporation” in your post, I get the exact same results: The consolidation of power in the hands of a few, the growth of a stultifying bureaucracy, a temporary solution that becomes a permanent fixture of everyday life… Your points fit any large collection of human beings into a body.

          Now, if you’re willing to saw that all corporations and all governments have the exact same flaws and should be expunged for having outlived their usefulness, I’m with you. Otherwise your logic fails.

          Your statements concerning PAC’s and their influence on government are much more compelling, and I agree that the influence of business on government is a problem.

          What, though, is to prevent a labor PAC from doing the same thing? Absolutely nothing.

          We see this writ large in California, where the teachers’ union, functioning as a PAC, has had a great and negative influence on the law.

          That being said, my notion that a different kind of union can exist could be replicated in regard to PAC’s, and I agree: It’s entirely possible that a PAC would be better for us than a union.

        • #3090454

          not exactly

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Re: the only good union…

          Government, in its most minimal form, is a relatively permanent solution to a relatively permanent problem. About 90% of the US government at the moment, however, is cruft created by permanent solutions to temporary problems. Otherwise, yes: what I said about unions does apply to organizations like corporations and governments.

        • #3090474

          What?!

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Re: Stats Currently Exist

          “So here’s the nest question: Are DBA’s receiving compensation in keeping with the revenue they generate/allow to be generated?”

          What does THAT have to do with anything, and how is it any of your business if the owner chooses not to reveal it?

        • #3090456

          Because That’s How Capitalism Works

          by memememe ·

          In reply to What?!

          Or, at least, that’s the theory. A worker receives compensation based on two factors: 1) The value he creates for the employer and 2) The ready supply of workers available for the position.

          And, yes, that’s definitely my business. Corporations, of course, view that particular issue differently, primarily because they have nothing to gain and everything to lose by disseminating that bit of information.

          For example, if a worker is being paid a disproportionately large amount compared to productivity, then something’s gone wrong and there will likely be someone higher up the food chain to answer to, culminating in the possibility of angry stockholders.

          On the other end, if a worker finds out he’s making a heck of a lot more money for his company than his salary suggests, then there’s employee dissatisfaction to deal with.

          Off-Topic: Really, you can find better people/communication skills than you showed in your post.

        • #3090354

          if he (the worker) finds out.

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Because That’s How Capitalism Works

          I understand what goes into the decision, and that all of the factors are variable. I just don’t see where there is any obligation (legal or otherwise) to explain it to the employee.

          Contracting is a good example. Publicizing the ‘formula’ you use to generate a profit would make it a lot easier for another to consistently underbid you.

        • #3090342

          Karl Marx’s value-added theory of labor is NOT capitalism

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Because That’s How Capitalism Works

          What you described is how mixed economies are failing.

          MemeMeme: “Or, at least, that’s the theory. A worker receives compensation based on two factors: 1) The value he creates for the employer and …”

          That’s [b]a[/b] theory, not [b]the[/b] theory.

          The theory that all people are equal & have inalienable rights means that the owner of a business has the right to judge for himself, herself, or theirselves, as the case may be, what your value is. An estimate of the [b]importance[/b] of your work is your employer’s right to make according to your employer’s premises, not yours. If you don’t like the offer, you can peddle your skills on the free market.

          Unless you build, market & distribute your product personally, it is not possible to quantify how much value your contribution adds to the company’s assets. You can be paid what the market will offer for your skills.

          Because [b]That’s[/b] How Capitalism Works.

        • #3090343

          They are

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to Re: Stats Currently Exist

          Here is a link: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151061.htm for DBA’s. Basically the 10 percentile is $34,530, the median $61,950 and 90 percentile $97,940.
          So basically I would say they are being fairly compensated and the best are very well compensated which is how it should be.
          Again, a company will move to do offshore if it is in it’s best interests and can provide high quality at a lower cost.
          I have a good friend that works for one of the Indian outsource companies. He does the high level work, requirements analysis, design and then the coding is sent offshore.
          I consult to a company that has a lot of chinese workers in the US, and also outsources testing to resources in China. They are also trying to train them to do development.
          If US companies were not interested in cost savings, then the whole issue of offshoring would not be relevant.

        • #3084117

          More Stats!

          by the.erinyes ·

          In reply to Re: Stats Currently Exist

          The most recent Foote “IT Insider Professional Salary Survey” and “Hot Technical Skills and Certifications Pay Index” (4Q2005 editions) specifically identify numerous Windows-related management titles and salaries (all numbers listed below describe compensation, expressed in rounded thousands as $77K for $77,000.)

          Note: The Foote numbers below denote averages taken from 63 different major U.S. metro areas. They describe half of the IT population that earns a median salary plus-or-minus 25%; thus, a range of $25K to $50K means that half of all professionals in that job or specialty earn salaries in that range. The numbers define base pay only, so when you add in other pay components, the numbers increase. (Certification Magazine numbers report total annual pay.)

          VP/Director, NT Systems Engineering ($130K to $158K)
          Manager, NT Systems Engineering ($99K to $118K)
          Director, Information Security ($109K to $140K)
          Manager, Information Security ($88K to $117K)
          VP/Director, Enterprise Infrastructure ($117K to $157K)
          VP/Director, e-Commerce ($120K to $167K)
          Director, Web Systems ($107K to $146K)
          Manager, Web Systems ($89K to $120K)
          In the realm of the technical, a number of specialization titles rise to the top of the salary charts and again are likely to confer six-figure yearly earnings on those who practice them. In the list below, the numbers from the Foote report are marked f, those from Certification Magazine are marked c:

          Senior Information Security analyst (f, $73K to $100K), especially for holders of information security-related certs such as CISSP (c, $105K to $115K, with add-ons such as ISSAP or ISSMP) and CISM (c, $106K)
          Senior Storage/SAN Administrator (f, $84K to $108K), especially for those who hold Brocade (c, $89K to $108K, depending on credential held) or SNIA certs (c, $66K to $99K, depending on credential held). Though hard evidence isn’t available for all storage-related certs, anecdotal evidence suggests strongly that competency in Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Dell Inc., McData Corp., EMC Corp. and other storage systems pay in the same general range. (This applies to the next item as well.)
          Storage/SAN Administrator (f, $64K to $94K)
          Senior Infrastructure Engineer (f, $76K to $95K) especially the CCIE (c, $104K) which continues to hold exceptional value and name recognition
          e-Commerce Project Manager (f, $84K to $107K)
          What the numbers mean
          Interestingly, both studies show strong correlations between well-developed project management skills and pay. The Certification Magazine study shows fairly high average annual pay of $96K for those with the Project Management Professional (PMP) certification. That indicates a maturing IT marketplace and that those who possess both hard technical skills and soft skills are in growing demand, with pay to match.

          What these numbers don’t say is what skills and titles are on their way up and what’s going down. Foote’s statistical analyses show that demand for information-security related skills is flattening out and even slowing, now that most companies have met Sarbanes-Oxley compliance goals and information security hiring and implementation goals have settled down. Interestingly, both studies indicate a recent resurgence in Web and e-commerce developer jobs, which may mean that the last vestiges of the Internet boom and bust at the turn of the century are over. Foote’s trends analysis shows strong interest in database positions and in .NET-related developer jobs, as more companies ramp up Windows-based development efforts in the wake of last November’s release of the .NET Framework 2.0, Visual Studio 2005 and SQL Server 2005.

          Another phenomenon lurks amid these salaries and hiring trends — namely, a need for professionals to broaden their perspectives as they climb higher on technical or management ladders. Though an exclusive focus on Windows may work well for IT professionals in entry- to mid-level career positions, increasing one’s knowledge and understanding of the Linux/Unix and mainframe worlds becomes more important the higher up the food chain one goes. Foote analysts opine that basic administrators and developers can prosper modestly in the Windows world, but moving into senior-level and management positions inevitably brings a need to master other platforms, technologies and whatever development environments apply.

          ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
          Ed Tittel is a freelance writer who specializes in information security , IT certification, and markup lanaguages. He created the Exam Cram series, has contributed to over 130 computer books, and writes regularly for numerous TechTarget Web sites. E-mail Ed at etittel@techtarget.com.

        • #3089428

          Fine hand it over then

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to A Specific Response to a Specifice Proposal

          Never heard so much crap in my life. Critical that we successfully address this issue. Go for world poverty, traveling faster than light, cold fusion or proving the existance of deity, at least you’ll have a chance then.

          I get paid as much as the person with the money values my effort. What the worker’s committee thinks my value is compared to theirs is meaningless unworkable drivel.

          Unions are NOT about me being paid the same as you they are about me and you being paid enough to live.

          Your solution no more fits into the marketplace than the blind fool who suggested $50 an hour.

          Get this straight I worked hard to get where I am, I aren’t taking a pay cut so you can get more.

          If you aren’t valuable enough to your employer, move or make yourself so.

          You want more money, earn it.

    • #3087652

      Soapbox

      by mattforchat ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Ok Squaredge…back away from the soapbox that you’re standing on..it’s not your freind. while unionization looks very much like it could be a good thing, If you look at current examples of unionization you begin to see that once unionized, an industry tends to marginalize itself and its’ members creating mediocrity at it’s best. We in IT must, by definition of what we do, not be cubbyholed into being a total commodity, thus reducing our overal inate value to our employers. This means that although we may be excellent technically, we MUST aspire to effectiviely and efficiently bridging the gap between the tech and the business side of the house. That way our true value becomes clear and we can be duly rewarded for it.

    • #3087519

      quite so

      by apotheon ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      damned glitch posted this in the wrong place

    • #3090489

      Capitalism: no place for incompetents & slackers

      by absolutely ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Just why do you think there is a job market at all? Your attendance of college and receipt of a master’s degree does not [b]create[/b] jobs. Jobs are created by [b]better[/b] people than you, whose inventiveness and hard work eclipses yours, and created an industry. The phenomenon of human ambition, and the resulting advance of technology, are not yours to control or stymie. It is your personal responsibility to understand that markets change, and with them, employment opportunities. You are not a child. The world is not responsible to give you a warning label along with your job.

      “YOUR SKILLS MAY BE OBSOLETE SOMEDAY IF YOU FAIL TO ADD NEW ONES.”

      • #3090477

        Well Said! ->Capitalism: no place for incompetents & slackers

        by ralford100 ·

        In reply to Capitalism: no place for incompetents & slackers

        !

        • #3089137

          What about W?

          by peter warren ·

          In reply to Well Said! ->Capitalism: no place for incompetents & slackers

          The most incompetent president of all time is in the white house. Does this mean we’ve gone over to the communists?

        • #3089121

          Oh . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to What about W?

          I don’t think he’s the most incompetent. There have been some other truly, horrifically incompetent presidents. In fact, Bush has succeeded at quite a lot — just not much that’s all that good.

        • #3088955

          re: gone over to the communists?

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to What about W?

          Election debates [b]avoid[/b] topics like competence, I don’t know why. Because it would be rude? “Governor Bush, you barely pulled C’s while taking the easiest classes available at your college. Why should we believe you understood what you were taught while your performance was barely mediocre? You weren’t busy with work-study, were you?”

        • #3084151

          Undergraduate classes = chasing women.

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to re: gone over to the communists?

          I think that my 180 IQ and George may have had similar lower level acedemic success. I had 4.0 in Calculus at MIT, but my Poli-Sci D carries the same weight as the A’s in Physics. (I disagreed with the moron who was teaching the class on everything.) The Philosophy D counts as much the Chem A does. Frankly until I found a good woman to share my life I pulled inconsistant grades myself.

          Remember he came in sixth in the MBA class at Harvard. He isn’t stupid, but when younger he was often drunk, and chased women. A fault I may have shared (Not the drinking, Alcohol isn’t my vice.)

          The guy isn’t stupid, but people who underestimate him are. I think he is much smarter than he appears. Some of that is the slower speech pattern of the American Southland. His Spanish is better than my wife’s Spanish, or my ex-brotherin law’s spanish (Puerto Rican born and raised.)

          He is competent, and has made many democrats look very stupid in the past. I see people still thinking he is stupid, but not seeing the signs of the good ol’ boy who robs you blind. He is so stupid he is taking money from my pockets, not me taking money from his…

          I only wish he’d listen to me for direction…

      • #3090157

        Sooo…. $5.00/hour is okay with you?

        by mcak ·

        In reply to Capitalism: no place for incompetents & slackers

        Capitalism, unchecked, is not the kind of world I want to live in. Maybe you’d like to live at the same level as your counterparts in Bangladesh, not me pal….

        • #3090149

          I’ve made myself worth >> $5/hour

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Sooo…. $5.00/hour is okay with you?

          Is that okay with you?

          mcak: “Capitalism, unchecked, is not the kind of world I want to live in.”

          Absolutely: You’re free to leave, not to obstruct my pursuit of my happiness.

        • #3090141

          not sure of your point

          by mcak ·

          In reply to I’ve made myself worth >> $5/hour

          I’m free to leave, you say? Leave what? The country? The planet? It’s a global market. Corporations have no political boundaries. If nothing stops them from getting labor for 10 cents an hour, they’ll pay 10 cents an hour. If there are no regulations against pollution, they’ll polute. They will not self-regulate, it is not in the interest of capitalism, which knows one and only one God … profit.

        • #3090132

          There is no such thing as God. Profit is real.

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to not sure of your point

          Polluters can be boycotted.

        • #3089456

          They do indeed self-regulate.

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to not sure of your point

          It’s called competition. They have to maintain a balance, or lose market share.

        • #3089312

          technically

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to They do indeed self-regulate.

          I guess that’s not exactly “self-regulating” so much as being regulated by market forces. Still, the result is the same.

      • #3089138

        re: Capitalism: no place for incompetents & slackers

        by peter warren ·

        In reply to Capitalism: no place for incompetents & slackers

        The how did we end up with the incompetent slacker in the White House?

        • #3089128

          mixed economy

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to re: Capitalism: no place for incompetents & slackers

          He is not presiding over a capitalist country. For decades, the 2 parties have been fighting over altruist collectivism (Democrat) and mystical collectivism (Republican). The Red Menace really screwed the political dialog in this country. I think communism is more of a danger now than it was in the 1960s because it’s creeping, unnoticed, in the background, while “radical Islam” makes the headlines. Neither the Democrat nor Republican parties represent (consistently) the right to live for oneself and to own the product of one’s own work, or any other principle of capitalism, either democratic or republican.

        • #3089117

          ahem

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to re: Capitalism: no place for incompetents & slackers

          That’s politics, not capitalism.

      • #3089017

        A little harsh, there …

        by raelayne ·

        In reply to Capitalism: no place for incompetents & slackers

        Well, I mostly agree, although I think you over-state things a bit. Not everyone has the talent or starts out with the education and family support required to succeed in our “capitalism.” In spite of our mythology, we don’t really have a country in which everyone starts out with the same opportunities for success. Our idiot president is evidence of that. From a poor family, he’d be selling used cars. It’s not all about hard work & inventiveness. [do I hear Ayn Rand in there?]

        But … anyone who chooses to be part of the business world, the world of commerce (we are, after all, a nation of shopkeepers), and does that expecting to be taken care of, is foolish indeed. If you’re playing the game, know the rules. And yes “your skills will be obsolete someday if you fail to add new ones.”

        Your bluntness is refreshing, and besides, it provoked lots of comments!

        • #3088958

          different opportunities not equal to injustice

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to A little harsh, there …

          Neither the Constitution nor the Wealth of Nations are based on the premise that all people have exactly the same opportunitites. The USSR, however, was.

          “In spite of our mythology, we don’t really have a country in which everyone starts out with the same opportunities for success.”

          [b]Our[/b] mythology? Are you writing from Cuba? China? North Korea?

    • #3090486

      & may the best applicant win

      by absolutely ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      If you want $50/hr, no legal prohibition exists that can prevent you from gaining the necessary qualifications, even, unfortunately, if you are a convicted felon in prison. No union can make you more talented than you are. Only your own effort can make you [b]worth[/b] what you say you want to be paid.

      GET THE HELL OUT OF MY WAY!

    • #3090338

      Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

      by neilrieck ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I am a full time software developer for a large Canadian telecomunnications carrier and have been a union member for 30 years. At first I thought this was a bad idea but over the years I’ve seen managment take too many liberties with employees and have changed my mind.

      • #3090148

        You’re welcome to elaborate, but…

        by absolutely ·

        In reply to Reply To: Unionize IT Now!

        such vague statements as that will not persuade me of anything.

    • #3090006

      Its about time!

      by julie.davis ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I am so sick and tired of being treated like all of my education and experience is worthless. I am making way to little for what I had to go through. We IT people are being used and underpaid by the industry because of all the new wannabe’s. It is hard enough being a woman in the field and getting employers to take you seriously. If we unionize and take the power back then we can demand the respect and pay our specialized field deserves. We are cosidered to be a dime a dozen and easily exchangeable. It is not a good feeling that is for sure.

      • #3089994

        You ARE a dime a dozen.

        by absolutely ·

        In reply to Its about time!

        Poor you, with your feelings. Your solution is too join a gang and extort money that your skills don’t warrant. Pathetic!

        • #3089879

          So ….. absolutely …………

          by dusterman ·

          In reply to You ARE a dime a dozen.

          You must have been raised in a very poor rural area , much like myself .
          .
          You,unlike myself, must have decided that you now make more money in a day than you made in a week in the past ………. you will roll over and play “dead” for all of the [ here we go ! ] COLLEGE EDUCATED IDIOTS ……. that took business classes and are now your boss .
          .
          Never mind that [ most of ] these educated morons have never actually owned a company let alone had the responsibility of loosing their job if they cause the company “harm” ……….. these are the people that control the hiring and firing of we ” supposedly lower class ” technical worker bees.
          .
          It’s scary to listen to a meeting going on of upper management [ working on a foo-bar computer ]while they discuss how to “riegn in” the growing technical trend that they can’t control because they aren’t educated enough to just fire anyone that doesn’t meet “their” expectations ! ! ! No matter the reason , including the fact that they cut the IT budget and expect you to “find ways” to fulfill the needed responsibilities … one tech I know [ just to fulfill his responsibilities ] pays for small items out of his own pocket !!!! and no he can not get reimbursed either !!!!!!
          .
          Me ……. I am tired of having to train the young executives on basic real world business …. ya know …… like paying the smaller service/vendors , if not immediately , at least on time ! ! !
          No the dragging out of the billing into the next month or quarter or cycle or eon …….. is NOT the way real business is done …….that is how “they” want you to do business so that “they” look good !
          .
          Sorry all …… week from hell dealing with …….morons ! !!! !!! !!! !!! !!!
          .
          Oh please ……..
          I have to stop now and go earn a living !
          .
          As always …..
          .
          Keep on …….. keepin on

        • #3089401

          Check your premises, fool.

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to So ….. absolutely …………

          “You must have been raised in a very poor rural area , much like myself.”

          Whatever observations you used as basis for that conclusion, your application of logic was not good enough to lead you to the correct conclusion.

          “you will roll over and play “dead” for all of the [ here we go ! ] COLLEGE EDUCATED IDIOTS ……. that took business classes and are now your boss .”

          What is your basis for that incorrect assumption?

          “It’s scary to listen to a meeting going on of upper management [ working on a foo-bar computer ]…Blah, blah, blah”

          You have let your fear get the best of you, and your assumptions are all incorrect.

          Your excessive punctuation implies that you are the problem, not your peers. Exercise is good for reducting stress. I recommend it enthusiastically, and based on first-hand experience.

        • #3089015

          Absolutely, you are hilarious

          by raelayne ·

          In reply to Check your premises, fool.

          I’m really enjoying your posts. Itching for a fight, are you? God help you if any of these folks ever gets his hands on one of your computers.

          What is your background, anyway? Other than avid Ayn Rand reader. (Obviously not rural — not sure where that came from)

        • #3088900

          raelayne, no humor is intended

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to Absolutely, you are hilarious

          I’m Absolutely Serious. And that is all that you, or anybody else, needs to know about me or my background.

        • #3088896

          precisely

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to raelayne, no humor is intended

          Background doesn’t matter. What matters is the truth of your premises and the validity of your arguments. So far, you’re doing pretty damned well in both categories.

        • #3085646

          Just curious, guys; lighten up

          by raelayne ·

          In reply to raelayne, no humor is intended

          Yes, of course, the argument stands on its own. The person who makes it does not add to or detract from its “truth” or validity.

          However, the fact that a person is making a certain argument is interesting to me, so I was asking about background for that reason. Just curious. But never mind — your response said enough.

          I am not deadly serious, by the way. I was once, but gave it up for sanity’s sake. Why in the world would you be arguing with this crowd except for fun? Do you really think anything could be accomplished?

        • #3085591

          raelayne, when I want to lighten up

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to raelayne, no humor is intended

          I’ll exercise frequently and eat a balanced diet.

          If I wanted to have frivolous conversations, I’d seek the company of frivolous people and discuss frivolous topics, not ideas that have proven to destroy entire industries when enacted.

          If the serious tone here troubles you or challenges your sanity, you’re welcome to leave and never return. Maybe you’d prefer the Friday Yuk, for example. Some people whose serious opinions I respect also contribute some very amusing anecdotes there, although they also contribute some horrendous trash there, and I prefer not to visit regularly.

          In short, you are free to read, or ignore, whatever you like, and to treat it as seriously, or as frivolously, as you prefer. I have exactly the same options, including the right to take my own life and the issues affecting it, absolutely seriously. You have no right to change my attitude, however much it bothers you.

          That’s final.

        • #3085698

          Dusterman, what is the meaning of this gibberish?

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to So ….. absolutely …………

          Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 21:41:21 +0000 (GMT)
          X-Comment: Sending client does not conform to RFC822 minimum requirements
          X-Comment: Date has been added by Maillennium
          Received: from alias-3.c10-ave-mta2.cnet.com ([206.16.1.163])
          by rwcrmxc14.comcast.net (rwcrmxc14) with SMTP
          id <20060304214120r140061076e>; Sat, 4 Mar 2006 21:41:21 +0000
          X-Originating-IP: [206.16.1.163]
          Message-ID: <5217125.1141508480957.JavaMail.app@c10-btg-app1.cnet.com>
          From: “theofficeconnection@juno.com” To: “Absolutely”
          Subject: Message from a TechRepublic Member
          Mime-Version: 1.0
          Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
          boundary=”—-=_Part_7_28591553.1141508480954″
          Content-Disposition: inline

          ——=_Part_7_28591553.1141508480954
          Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
          Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
          Content-Disposition: inline

          One of your fellow TechRepublic members has sent you a private message:

          From: Dusterman
          Subject: Hmmmmmmmmmmm
          Message:
          Something to hide ?
          .
          Unless you work for one of the “soup companies” you ain’t that special …..
          .
          Don’t get me wrong , you are probably , pretty “special” to your family …
          .
          But to your friends here on this site ,,,,,,,,, you’re just another tech.
          .
          And if you do work for the guvment ……. well that’s just too bad .
          .
          But please let there be no mistake about me , I live , work and breath air here in Denver and am readily available to talk ………and learn 🙂
          .
          As far as I know you’ve never done anything to deserve any rude or discourteouse [ sp ] jibes ………. so if anyone is badgering you , I will stand with you against these people ….. I do not tollerate people that “pick on” others ……… on the other hand …… if you work for the guvment ….. well you are on your own …………….sorry 🙁
          .
          So anyhow , if you decide to block me I won’t take it persoanlly .
          .
          As always ……………
          .
          Keep on ………. keepin on
          .
          Mike
          ——=_Part_7_28591553.1141508480954–

          That entire message is off-topic & meaningless, but this appears to be the only thread in which Dusterman and Absolutely have both participated, so I invite Dusterman to explain the intended meaning of that rambling bunch of nonsense.

        • #3085133

          Anyhow ………. my question is ……….

          by dusterman ·

          In reply to Dusterman, what is the meaning of this gibberish?

          Who posted this or reviewed this message and under what jurisdiction did you do so.
          .
          You just violated my rights …………. and I want satisfaction …………
          .
          Please do not be a coward and shirk your need to take responsibility and stand tall here ……..
          .
          I will offer you the option of a face to face meeting at which time I will demand a formal apology at the least or you can be the coward that you have been to this point and hide .
          .
          It is time to cease this conversation as I am now violated and will not rest until I have a form of satisfaction ………….
          .
          Ok ?
          .
          Mike

      • #3089958

        You don’t deserve to be on top if you are not willing to figh to stay there

        by 35rjt ·

        In reply to Its about time!

        You may think you’ve paid your dues.
        The jobs need to go to the most qualified, and that doesn’t always mean certified.
        It’s survival of the fitest and the unions are spitting into the wind.

      • #3089418

        Well some of us are worth a dime a piece

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to Its about time!

        But we are all interchangeable. If you want to be indispensable set up your own business, with your own money and hire yourself. If you want to be successful you should regularly assess your own competence, and value to the business.

        Your education and experience is worth what you get paid for it. That’s it’s only monetary value !

        Setting some arbitrary value on it before the market has valued it, will just price you straight onto welfare.

        Profit is income – expenses, not income – mysalary – expenses.

        Wake Up !

    • #3089967

      Shocked with this BS

      by hangin_online ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I am completly shocked that this bickering has continued for so long. It seems to me everyone is trying to make a case one way or another. Thats great, but most of it isn’t even polite arguements. I have my opinion regarding Unions. However; I will not push them on anyone else. Some of this is just mean.
      Reading through this discussion I am thinking that IT couldn’t unionize because you can’t even have a civil discussion in this forum forget about contract negotiations. I used to work as a Building Contactor before this field and I think discussions were a bit more civil with those men and women that some of you consider beneath you than this one is. Some of the EGOs here are absolutly apauling. Good luck to all of you in your endevors, whatever they may be. However, remember we are all human and if we all thought the same way and had the same opinions this conversation / forum wouldn’t even exist.

      • #3089940

        Whistles through fingers

        by ontheropes ·

        In reply to Shocked with this BS

        Hey TR!! You there?

        How about an opinions tab? A visible to all, multiple choice box users can create and attach to a discussion to keep a running tally on pertinent points.

        One click per user.

        • #3089411

          I thought he made a very good point

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Whistles through fingers

          What was it exactly ?

          hmmm

          maybe it wasn’t that good at all

          I have an opinion on it somewhere but I aren’t going to tell you.

          What a spoon.

          S’ good idea my the way if everybody but the poster says it meaningless non contrubutive drivel, pull it from the thread.

          And all it’s children of course, because there can’t be anything more meaningless than having a discussion on how meaningless something meaningless is.

          LOL

        • #3085744

          I think I know what you mean

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to I thought he made a very good point

          If they pull all of the non-contributive meaningless drivel from any meaningless discussions it would mean precluding any mean meaningless children from becoming more meaninglessly mean.
          But, that would mean that posting meaningless non-contibutive drivel only to have it pulled by the poster would meaninglessly change the children that didn’t mean to be posting meaningless drivel which would skew the posters thread by a mean average of .052%, by my latest PIFMA calculations.

          There is no spoon.

        • #3085608

          That’s it precisely

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to I think I know what you mean

          well on average anyway, somewhere about the mean which isn’t the median and that has a different meaning, though the value itself could be meaningless dependant on the meaning.

          Tee Hee

        • #3085590

          damn the Friday Yuk

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to That’s it precisely

          Tony, THAT is what I call funny!

        • #3103879

          PIFMA?

          by heml0ck ·

          In reply to I think I know what you mean

          quien es?

      • #3089326

        Unfortunately You’re Right

        by aaron a baker ·

        In reply to Shocked with this BS

        Unfortunately you’re absolutely right. What should have been an intelligent conversation, regarding the pros and cons of Allowing Unions in, has degenerated to a child’s fight with name calling,verbal abuse,insults, petty bickering.etc.
        And if that isn’t enough, people go way Off Topic to”Prove a point” which is usually neither here or there.
        This could have and should have been and intelligent,stimulating and informative discussion, but all we needed was a few dunderheads who spend far too much time in their parents basement or in their bedrooms and this is what you get.
        Instead of discussion, we get arrogance,crudity, vulgarism and above all greed and selfishness.
        It is for this reason That I have abstained from any further comment, I don’t like to fight, however I really do enjoy a stimulating and intelligent conversation, one laced with courtesy and forethought. The idea is to talk, not beat the hell out of one another.
        Like you, I am repelled and disgusted and so, I shall continue to sit on the sidelines and maybe, just maybe,the TR people will take note and add this kind of crap to the list of things not tolerate.
        Hang in there, it’s bound to get better, I hope? 🙂
        Warmest Regards
        Aaron.

    • #3089880

      maybe you just can’t compete

      by avid ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      unions are great when it comes to things like safety and working conditions. when it comes to “the right person for the right job” they are a joke. i have certs. but i have met a million “certified idiots” great at taking tests, no common sense. i am sure that bill would love unionization. it would make everyone take his tests every year and he could charge whatever he wanted for them. by the way, do you work for MS ? my next point is this. who are you going to unionize? just the large companies ? you can’t force the small consulting firms to unionize. maybe the formation of something similar to the bar association would be more befitting. as for me. i own my own business now and do not really have to worry about it too much.

    • #3089296

      LOL, yeah right unionizing that’s the answer

      by maldain ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Sorry, I needed a good laugh. First of all, the market sets the rates if the market place for network engineers has gotten too tight for you try changing specialties. I’ve been in this business since the late 1970’s and I’ve gone from being an assembly language programmer, to COBOL programmer to C to DBA to Sysadmin/DBA for nearly 80 servers spread all over the North American continent. You either evolve or starve in this business. When you young pups flood into a field it’s time for us old hacks to move to more current fields. Afterall, anybody coming out of school is about 3 years behind the times and should be working entry level jobs.

      • #3085597

        Unionizing sure isn’t the answer….

        by bg6638 ·

        In reply to LOL, yeah right unionizing that’s the answer

        I perfectly agree that the idea of a union for IT workers is pure nonsense! The biggest problem is simply oversupply in a field that is rapidly maturing, and requiring far fewer personnel. Also, the idea of “entry level” jobs in IT is a misnomer! At a MINIMUM, you need a BS in CS/MIS,
        5 yrs exp., virtually every cert offered by Citrix, Cisco, Msoft, and Redhat just to have an employer even consider your resume! When you have employers requiring a CCIE for a Help Desk I position, and prefer a Master’s, you know that the workforce is oversaturated! That position should not require any more than an Associates with little or no experience.

        • #3084859

          Isn’t that the whole idea…

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Unionizing sure isn’t the answer….

          … behind technology? To be able to get more done with less people? To give us humans more time to persue the intellectual and the artistic?

    • #3089012

      Let’s all be NICE so nobody has to feel BAD

      by raelayne ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      This has been a hoot.

      Lots of people who can’t understand why their companies, their managers, the world isn’t NICE to them. All they want is a good salary. They went to school. Why should they have to do anything else? [Ever notice how many of these posts seem to be done during the day, when people MUST be at work …] I’m thinking maybe this is all fallout from the big self-esteem movement.

      And the solution — unions. Because unions are how the poor, powerless workers organize against the big powerful corporations. I do happen to support that notion, by the way. Organizing to gain power is a good thing.

      But aren’t IT guys professionals? Don’t they have skills of value to the world, skills that are scarce, special, and in demand? Then why do they need to unionize? And I think the answer is kind of obvious — the skills aren’t scarce, special, or in demand anymore. So IT is no longer a profession; it’s, as some have noted, now a trade.

      That hurts. That makes people feel BAD. But nobody ever clawed his way back into a profession with a union.

      Sorry you feel BAD. Sorry some people haven’t been NICE to you.

      God, we have it so damned easy in this country, we’re so spoiled, and we’re so on a downward spiral it scares me. We’re alive, most of us have jobs, we eat, we have places to live, and we have so much free time we’re hanging out online. And we’re whining and carrying on about being under-appreciated.

      • #3088895

        believe it or not

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to Let’s all be NICE so nobody has to feel BAD

        Most of this “hanging out online” qualifies as research for me. I don’t mean I mark it “research” in the “what I did today” column, but that I learn a lot that is applicable to my livelihood. In addition, I occasionally make business contacts, so aside from research it’s also a bit like a business conference.

        Granted, I haven’t learned much from “IT UNION YES”, but that nitwit isn’t the only person posting here.

    • #3085096

      Look at other industries before you unionize

      by jeffin90620 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      If you want to see what would happen to IT, just look at the decline of the Automobile and Steel industries. GM is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy because their costs (mostly due to union contracts, including health care for retirees) do not allow them to compete.

      The steel industry union gets good wages, but can survive only so long as protectionist legislation is maintained (Bush surprised many by signing an extension a couple years back, but continued tariffs are not guaranteed). And the price of that protectionism is borne on the backs of American consumers, most of whom do not work in IT, so the only way to guarantee their support is to protect them, too. The problem with that is when we increase protectionism for our people, other governments do the same. When that happens, our exports go down, leaving less money to pay those $50/hr salaries you think you deserve.

      Europe has a lot of the characteristics that make union leaders here drool (limited work weeks or good overtime rates, long vacations, cradle-to-grave health care, near-impossibility to fire, etc.); they also have unemployment two to five times that of the United States and economic growth of 1-2% (which will not be maintained if they start meeting the pollution limits specified in the Kyoto Accords by buying credits from Russia, as is the current plan).

      I would suggest reading the works of economists Dr. Walter Williams and Dr. Thomas Sowell, both of whom do a much better job than I of explaining the results of protectionism on economies around the world.

      • #3084644

        Congrats to Ford Management

        by peter warren ·

        In reply to Look at other industries before you unionize

        The new standard 2006 Ford Fusion got the lowest side impact safety rating, and only an acceptable front impact safety rating from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/business/AP-Crash-Tests.html?_r=1&oref=slogin.

        I guess the senior Ford management team will be taking a hefty pay cut for producing yet another flawed standard product for the non-luxury market. It must have been that their collective brains were fixated on those terrible unions who are raping the poor American auto industry with a desire for high pay and decent benefits.

        I agree that union leadership is far from perfect or innocent, but while we?re all trashing the concept of strength through numbers, let?s give the dunderheads running American businesses their fair share of the responsibility. American CEOs are typically being paid 500 times more than the average employee working for them. On average, that?s 22 times what their counterparts make in Japan and 17 times what their counterparts earn in Europe. (http://www.beggarscanbechoosers.com/2005/04/ceo-pay-soared-in-2004-as-us-economy.html.)

        If the justification for this disparity is the terrible weight of responsibility these people have to bear, then let them bear it. The other reasons offered, like creating jobs, increasing shareholder value and dynamic performance certainly don?t apply here.

        Union bashing is just another way for us to avoid looking at the serious problems faced by American business and American labor. And empty rhetoric from the US administration and US Congress about free markets, the need for education, the American spirit of ingenuity and competition do not begin to address the problem. Unfortunately for all of us, emptiness is the major characteristic of our current leadership. We don?t need more PR; we need strong, intelligent and open-minded leadership, in business, in labor and especially in Washington DC.

        • #3087148

          Thank the Unions for the weekend!

          by delaaguilerae ·

          In reply to Congrats to Ford Management

          Most people don’t know that it was the Unions the ones that gave us the WEEKEND. Years ago you were lucky to get Sundays off.

        • #3086881

          Who gets weekends off?

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Thank the Unions for the weekend!

          🙂

        • #3086517

          If I miss one I get time &1/2 OT pay

          by delaaguilerae ·

          In reply to Who gets weekends off?

          I have a Union and I am an hourly employee anything beyond normal hours is overtime pay for me. The engineers complain that Techs get a bigger paycheck because they aren’t Unionized. Sometimes I have come close to doing 40hrs OT in a week.

    • #3267820

      Geek union action down under

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      This is the first instance I recall of an IT union threatening strike action in Australia.

      Sydney Morning Herald, March 10, 2006 – 3:48PM

      Computer technicans are threatening chaos at fast-food outlets, supermarkets, banks and airports unless they get a pay rise.

      More than 100 staff from NCR – a company responsible for repairing computer breakdowns at KFC outlets, Aldi supermarkets and Sydney Airport’s baggage handling systems – are planning to to walk off the job on Monday morning.

      “In terms of industrial action in the IT industry this is easily the most significant one we’ve had in Australia,” said Australian Services Union secretary Sally McManus. If the strike goes ahead, it might last up to a week, she said.

      “If you are Qantas and people can’t get on planes, it’s an enormous amount of money. For the banks, it’s really the consumers who’ll be affected.

      “For KFC and Aldi supermarkets, if the cash registers are broken down it’s going to cause delays,” she said.

      However, NCR area general manager, Noel Pettitt, said the ASU was exaggerating the potential effects of the proposed industrial action.

      “I think that’s a gross exaggeration,” said Mr Pettitt. “I don’t think it’s a major concern for the community.

      “If [the strike] does happen, and at this stage it’s not certain, we have contingencies in place that will ensure that NCR continues to meet its service obligations,” he said.

      “We’ve re-jigged our workforce and arranged things such that we’ll certainly deal with priority calls in the first instance but continue to deal with the balance of calls.”

      Mr Pettitt said the union had exaggerated how many workers would take part in the industrial action.

      The strike has been called following a breakdown in negotiations over pay, Ms McManus said.

      “[The workers] are concerned that NCR is attempting to stonewall so they can use the Howard Government’s new WorkChoices laws to cut away at wages and conditions. These workers do not want to inconvenience the public, but have no option to achieve pay increases.”

      Mr Pettitt said: “We continue to work directly with our employees to reach a conclusion to the negotiations.”

      The union said their industrial action could affect:

      – baggage handling and ticketing technology at Sydney Airport

      – regional ATMs across Australia

      – ATMs operated by CBA, Westpac, ANZ and some credit unions

      – IT systems for Wollongong University

      – KFC outlets

      – Aldi supermarkets

      – public schools with Apple computers

      – private companies with Dell computers

      • #3266837

        Please keep us posted

        by peter warren ·

        In reply to Geek union action down under

        Thanks for the info on IT worker activity in Australia. The results of IT workers fighting back should be instructive. Do you have any more info on the issues?

      • #3077228

        In Solidarity

        by delaaguilerae ·

        In reply to Geek union action down under

        I am a Union member and activist, I wish I could give some advise but I don’t know the Labor Laws Down Under. However am in solidarity with any attempt by workers to get better wages and treatment.

    • #3267418

      Absolutely not!

      by ebeck ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      This is quite a long active post. I’ll apologize for not reading all responses and if so, for being redundant. I want my opinion in here.
      I feel for you. I’ve been there in the ERP world wathcing as rates went from near $300/hr for gurus down to $40/hr in some places. That is called a lifecycle though. Unions are a thing of the past, that now do nothing more than bleed entities dry.
      What happens when your career goes up, you now manage these union employees, and want to change the rules/roles/workload or terminate them for performance issues? Have you ever sat in any union negotiation or dispute case (if so great – just asking)?
      No – what we need is to keep educating management to seek quality resources, and weed out the ones that don’t cut it. I’ve seen my share of hacks, but while I hate competing with them in the marketplace, I’d hate even worse how difficult it would be to get rid of one if he was on board and in a union.
      Just my $.02.

    • #3074708

      Go For It !

      by fnm48 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I am a member of Nabet (National association of broadcast employees and technicians)a Broadcasting union. I firmly believe in “Unionization”. However, I still feel, that if you ask for too much, (at first) you’ll turn people off and drive buisness to “India” or other foreign countries.First, establish the Union, then gradually, increase your demands(when your sure you can get the leverage you need).
      Also, in todays “anti-union” atmosphere(thank you mr Regan)be careful, that the members will back you with a “walkout” if necessary !

      • #3077272

        It is spelled “Reagan”

        by navy moose ·

        In reply to Go For It !

        Don Regan was the Secretary of Treasury. The President was Ronald Reagan.

        Learn to spell it.

    • #3077202

      FORGET THE UNION IDEA

      by decimumaximus ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Unions are too hard to create successfully
      there is just too much controversy.

      What we need is licensing. Simple easy to roll out and cuts out the riff raff. Look at electricians for example not all of them are union but all of them are licensed.
      keeps the hacks out and let them make a honest wage.

    • #3076996

      Seen more negatives with unions

      by davemori ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I’ve seen more negatives with unions than positives, and there are no guarantees in a free market economy. A masters degree and certifications does not guarantee anything, and neither does a union.

      Having a union has not guaranteed airline pilots and workers salaries stay at previous high levels. They have had to take pay and benefits cuts for some years to stay employed. In the case of IT, a $50 across the board minimum is simply going to drive executive leadership over to more outsourcing. This is very much an internet world, now, and corporate servers as well as the help desk or the NOC can just as easily be physically located in India, Spain, China or any other place. There are people there capable of doing at least just as good a job or good enough a job as someone here — and they are very satisfied making $12,000/year.

      Outsourcing happens when business leadership gets unhappy with the performance of IT and the cost of IT. When an IT department dictates too much to its corporate users, and when it fails to keep promises and when it is perceived as costing too much, it is ripe for outsourcing.

      Business users figure that if they are already getting lousy service out of IT, and if they already have a bad, adversarial relationship with IT, they may as well outsource IT and at least have a relationship that is cheaper that stands some chance of being better or no worse than the bad relationship that they already have.

      When IT people complain about outsourcing, it is time to look in the mirror and see how their own attitudes and relationships and service level performance contributed to the decision.

      Business users are not always right, but they are also strong allies, not adversaries. A professional manager has to learn to only do battle where it really matters the most, and to always push to live up to schedules and promises.

      When business users have a good relationship with their IT department, outsourcing doesn’t stand a chance.

    • #3073991

      unions are the only way to protect ourselves from avaricious corporations

      by pitairis ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      unions like all man made institutions are only as good as the members. a union will give some protection against these greedy corporations. remember united we bargain divided we beg.jim

      • #3076472

        Right and wrong

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to unions are the only way to protect ourselves from avaricious corporations

        Unions were started for excactly that purpose way back when. Now they are political organisations.
        Politicians however are the same everywhere in unions or out, for sale to the highest bidder, who just happen to be avaricious corporations !
        We may need unions again, when our children get turned into sweeping brushes. At that point they will band together fight the state, the law and the bosses, gather momentum, decide the best way forward is to sponsor their own members as politicians, even set up their own party. The wheel will turn full circle again.

        May be one day we will learn.

        “I’m putting myself forward to represent all us chaps in out fight for equality”, should gain an immediate response of a damn good kicking.

        Find someone with a sense of duty who doesn’t want to do it. If they show signs of enjoying it, another kicking might be in order.

      • #3076301

        If you have to beg,

        by tonythetiger ·

        In reply to unions are the only way to protect ourselves from avaricious corporations

        then you are not worthy of anything else, so do it. Calling it “bargaining” is disingenuous.

    • #3075241

      I’ll pass on Unionizing

      by psifiscout ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I have never nor will I ever work in a Union shop. My son works in one now and his non stop headaches dealing with incompetence that is protected by union rules is unbeleivable. Also other members of my family have worked for unions run operations in the past, I see little benefit of a union that votes to strike then charges ‘union dues’ so they can tell you you aren’t allowed to work. Unions are nothing more than one more layer of bureaucracy between the worker and his paycheck.

      • #3076606

        Remember when

        by it survivor ·

        In reply to I’ll pass on Unionizing

        It’s said that the people in this country dont remember the time when all working class men and women were exploited by business and the wealthy. Those who refuse to remember their history are bound to be exploited by that lack of historical understanding. You have only to look at the stock market and the wealthy to see how so few have taken some much from so many with little or no effort at all. Dont get me wrong I’m not again anyone making good money but is any CEO really worrth 600 times the normal man or woman working today ?

        • #3076555

          Times have changed…

          by tonythetiger ·

          In reply to Remember when

          but unions haven’t. They are obsolete. Competent workers don’t need them. If you cannot get what you think you are worth, then it is your thinking that is wrong.

          What the CEO makes is none of your business. What the guy working next to you makes is none of your business. Maybe if you spent more time working and less time worrying about what other people make, you’d make more.

        • #3076475

          I do recall

          by psifiscout ·

          In reply to Remember when

          Yes, I do recall the history of the industrial revolution, but that is not a true picture of todays environment, we have Federal Labor Laws and Regs (many instituted by the actions of unions) but in many arenas unions have outsayed their welcome, and become like a leeching relative that came to vist for “a few days” that turned into permanent stay. Unions did serve their purpose for a while, but in somce ways have become like the abusive business owners of the slave days. In a union shop you MUST be a member to work (and pay due in order to do so), if the Union says “STRIKE” you strike (even if you disagree with the union and prefer to work), and if you happen to have a union “brother” who like to be a ‘slacker’ on the job, the union will protect the ‘slacker’s’ job even if it causes other union workers who are good workers to work even harder to pick up the slack.

          I would rather work where I am rewarded by the boss for a job well done, and walk off the job if the employer is reticent to do so, and not give a part of my check to a union boss who uses the money to support an organization that dictates to me when I can or cannot earn a paycheck that I deem fair.

    • #3076474

      Union Brothers UNITE!

      by bpa_leo ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      You’re absolutly right. We are getting shafted in an industry that has adopted the Wal-Mart model of
      duing business. We need to organize ourselves and become a cohesive force that is able to negotiate a better living standard for ourslves. We work our arses off and find that more and more our rates keep dropping while CEO’s get richer. Enough is enough! UNIONIZE NOW!

      • #3076309

        There’s not a damn thing wrong

        by tonythetiger ·

        In reply to Union Brothers UNITE!

        with the way Walmart does its business. They employ people who your buddies refused to hire, then they make them as successful as they can be. You can’t stand that can you? You can’t handle that someone can do something on their own, without a union daddy to help them, so you want to impose your inabilities onto everyone else!

        Excuse me, I have to go puke!

      • #3076158

        Absolutely Positively NO WAY!!!!!!

        by bg6638 ·

        In reply to Union Brothers UNITE!

        Something to think about. I’ve worked in IT for 30 years at four different companies. Guess why I left each one? The factory labor unions went on strike and the companies closed shortly thereafter due to bankruptcy! Simply marvelous! I certainly am hoping that it won’t happen a fifth time!

    • #3104936

      Unions, again?

      by jaymiller25 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      I’ve read a good deal of the posts in this thread. It seems this topic comes up at least once a year. So, I feel the need to give my .02

      – Unions in IT: I don’t see it as beneficial. They served their purpose in the “old days”, during the Industrial Revolution to give workers a safe work environment, etc. That was very necessary. IT doesn’t need unions. Many of the people who are for unions in IT very well may be working for a place that thinks it’s okay to take advantage of the IT staff. To me, that’s a more localized issue than a global IT issue. I just can’t see unionized IT doing any good for us.

      – Outsourcing also came up. I think this hot button topic is losing steam & has been over inflated recent years.

      – Companies are seeing it’s hard to manage outsourced projects. I know many folks fighting this battle today.

      – From what I’m seeing, mainly development jobs are being outsourced. BUT…if you look around, many of them are coming back due to management & communication issues.

      – I also see the threat of being outsourced is higher is you work at a large corporation. The higher-ups in a large corp will mainly only look at the initial savings…where smaller companies will see the bigger picture, including quality.

      I can say w/ confidence that all of our jobs will not be outsourced. From a business perspective, it just wouldn’t be good business…and there are too many IT functions that can’t be outsourced.

      IT is a great field to be in. I have zero worries about my future. The secret is to always show your value to whomever you’re working for…and the thought of outsourcing you will never come up. It’s those who don’t add value to the organization & are just “coasting” who should be concerned, as the business units are slowly learning more & more about IT functions.

      Like I said…just my opinion…none of which is etched in stone…

    • #3286913

      If you know your stuff, you don’t need a union.

      by jeffin90620 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      My girlfriend’s uncle works in IT for an international manufacturing firm. He travels about half the year. He has a very nice home in an upscale community with 4 kids (one in college and the second on her way in a year or so). Drives a Lexus.

      The thing is, he knows his stuff. I work in engineering, not IT, but I make a good wage, too (better than the $50 an hour you are demanding). I get this because I know my stuff, too.

      You really don’t have much to fear from those without a good education; they will fill the cheap jobs you don’t want.

      Jeff

    • #3153180

      Wake up and smell the coffee…

      by rka ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      If you think unionizing will save the day, you obviously need to pay a trip to Michigan. All the UAW members here can tell you how well unions save jobs!

    • #3160912

      EX UNION ELECTRICIAN

      by gfuentes5 ·

      In reply to Unionize IT Now!

      Make sure you are willing to fight the mafia… cause thats who runs the unions, dont forget the corruption factor, dont forget pricing yourself right out of the market, dont forget creating a new enemy, the Non-union worker …who by the way will always be a threat even if you own market share!!!
      Of course theres pension funds, apprenticeships, medical and dental benefits, employer organizations who must form a partnership to represent themselves against you for collective bargaining agreements, government sanctions, rules, local and county entities, offices that require staffing and …

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