General discussion


Vista, is it really worth it?

By Dave the Computer Guy ·
Ok so I have to say I?ve been reading all the articles on Vista. I see all the visual improvement and hear about all the security enhancements and I have to ask myself is it really worth it?

First off there are these really cool new window effects. Ok I have to say they look very cool. But from what I?ve been reading I?ll need a 256 Meg video card just to use them. Then if this is the case how are my games going to react? If I need a 256 Meg video card for a game I?m trying to play do I then need a 512 card to accommodate both my game and windows? Or am I going to have to drop my windows display into a lower mode every time I want to do something graphical?

Then there are all these comments about how secure Vista will be. I?m sorry it?s a Microsoft operating system and I don?t care how secure they make it some one is going to crack it. Then I read about how the new Windows Defender will help block Spyware and prevent viruses. Well I have a Antivirus / Firewall / Spyware removal software that works just fine for that now.

Finally what version of the new Windows will I buy? There are seven to choose from and the question then becomes how expensive is this venture going to be?

Don?t get me wrong, I?m not going to just ship to Linux (though I thought about it). I like windows; I just wish Microsoft would take the time and produce something original. Even the new Windows effects look just like a combination of the new Mac OS and an OS by Sun called project looking glass.

I guess I?d like to hear other people?s opinions on Vista and see if I'm just a radical or if others agree.

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What else is new?

by jgmsys In reply to Vista, is it really worth ...

We should all be used to this by now. Every time Microsoft releases a major OS update, you are are required to upgrade your hardware as well. Usually it's just RAM, and sometimes the processor, but now we have to upgrade our RAM, our processors and our video cards as well. Should we expect anything less from the WIntel duopoly? Let's face it; they're in cohoots, and they always have been. And apparently, we can all now add Nvidia and ATI to that list.

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I was on the fence until ...

by Pebkac Charlie In reply to Vista, is it really worth ...

... I read this:

It wasn't the article. It was the discussion by the MS employees that made me think twice. Skip the article (just a gripe about firing the bosses because of the delay) and read the posts below. They are entertaining if nothing else.

Taking that into account and the fact that Novell just released desktop eye candy for the Linux desktop that will do everything that the Vista is supposed to do, but on a Matrox MX400, why would one ever think about Vista?

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MS Haters - 2 cents

by jonf In reply to Vista, is it really worth ...

I am so tired of all the MS haters out there. You people are so biased against MS that you fail to see or even acknowledge the positive things Microsoft has done for the computer industry. You also put all the blame squarely on MS.

Yes, Windows has issues just as every OS that has ever existed. Microsoft is the big target and thus suffers from more attacks than any other OS. They have made mistakes and have learned a lot from them although they need to keep security as the top priority.

As a network administrator, I have not had a single security issue or breach on my network in over 6 years. We are purely Windows based (2000, XP, 2003). That is because I actually do my job properly and do not rely on the OS for security as nobody should regardless of the OS you use. Every OS is hackable and will always be hackable because nothing is perfect.

The most recent breach I have experienced was with our corporate website a year ago which our ISP hosts on Linux. I am not saying Linux is better or worse just that it happens with everything. ****, even Cisco has issues with their router OS?s frequently. I am more worried about the internet backbones than my LAN security because it is out of my hands.

If you look at the latest vulnerabilities, you will see that MS has few on the list while Linux has multiple vulnerabilities, which I chock up to its modular design, and multiple vendor models.

Vista will be a good (not great) improvement. You cannot expect an OS to be infallible. There are far too many variables, components, and millions of lines of code and thousands of programmers that maintain these systems.

My 2 cents.

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MS Haters

by CodeBubba In reply to MS Haters - 2 cents


Agree completely. It's unfortunate but all too often these discussions degenerate into a flame-war or a discussion of "We hate Microsoft and here's why". It's been my observation that it's usually the 2nd-rate players that have the most negative to say about the leaders in ANY industry; never mind just this industry.

I saw this happening 15 years ago back when OS/2 was trying to make a go of it and now here we go again. I tried to use OS/2 for awhile myself and was watching the OS/2 vs. Windows NT stuff going on. Same thing. The OS/2 crowd was running around doing little more than taking pot-shots at Microsoft and denegrating it, rather than spending time just working with their system and working to improve it. Where is OS/2 now?

I don't harbor any ill will towards the "open source" or Linux folks myself - but I'm seeing the same conditions on the discussion boards as I saw 15 years ago. Microsoft had their head down and just got the job done. They will probably do so again with Vista. OK, so they've had setbacks. **** ... any company of that size is going to have issues like this.

Maybe I don't read enough boards but so far I haven't seen Microsoft users coming onto these boards (even when the subject was ABOUT Linux or Open Source) and taking pot-shots at the Linux crowd. Why? Because by-and-large people that use Microsoft stuff are satisfied with it. I support a number of people that use Microsoft stuff and not one of them has ever complained to me about how "crappy" the stuff is and "can you please move me to XXXXX because I HATE MICROSOFT".

It's really silly. However - it will continue. As long as there's a #1 player there will be #2, #3 ... etc. that feel they can't make their point without criticizing the leader.

-CB ;-)

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Not everybody is 100% Against M$

by w2ktechman In reply to MS Haters

I have been using MS products for years, and I have found that many of the errors with Winx is either user or 3rd party programs. But, they do seem to over-do a lot of things.
Although I have never really used other OS's, I am now learning Linux because I will not go to Vista after reviewing it. First, many things changed (again), so I will need to re-learn just about everything all over again. MS states that it is easier and more intuative, but this is not correct. When you add more and more layers to do everything, it is not easier, MS needs to understand that.
Secondly, still many of the functions are not easy to use, or do not work as stated by MS. I know its still in Beta form, and that 60% of the OS is being re-written, but that just shows how buggy it really is at this state.
However, it is probably easier than learning a whole new OS completely, because commands change, etc..
I plan on hanging on to XP for as long as possible myself. I see no real NEED to move to Vista. I am sure that HW will not really be a problem when Vista is finally released, things should run on the newest of systems just fine. It may take a year or 2 after its release before it really gets popular though, and after a few service packs. This would be the timeframe of which many people will be upgrading their systems anyway.

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As an MCSE I doubt VISTA.

by gprinsloo In reply to MS Haters

Reality check.

Face facts.

There is nothing substantial that has been advertised to date regarding the vista release that makes it a MUST upgrade for the betterment of computing or user usability.

MS in my opinion will be better off in investing in remote satellite computing via mini handhelds. That is where the need is.

A mere facelift and fixes in security subsystem is not enough to justify costly hardware upgrades to enable a OS upgrade.

Giving credit where it is due is great but lets be honest folks. MS has probably made a wise choice to hold back on the release. Perhaps they will still include something radical in line with tradition. (Ie. win3.1 to 95. OR 9x to XP OR NT to 200x server)

Dont feed us garbage again by telling us that 98 is an upgrade to 95. It was a facelift and an inclusion of lots of drivers for plug and play which could have been incorporated in a service pack. O sorry, I forgot to automatic inclusion of Internet Explorer which may now legally not be included.

Good Luck MS. Make us proud as at this point in time I believe most posts in this forum has merit, MS does not really have a lot to offer in vista.

As the name rightly implies. WINDOWS VISTA. "WINDOWS VIEW" leads me to the question.


Any which way MS will be breaking records again be sure of that.

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As an MCSE I doubt VISTA

by CodeBubba In reply to As an MCSE I doubt VISTA.

No question about it - M$ is going to have to hit a "grand slam" to get deep penetration with Vista. As I said earlier, I think people should let it stand on its own merits and upgrade if appropriate, but I think "appropriate" may differ widely depending on your situation. XP has been pretty successful out there - you're not going to budge users off it unless you can honestly sell them that there's a compelling reason to do so. I think most folks are going to take the stance "If it ain't broke ... why fix it?"

In my case I might upgrade out of curiosity only because I like to tinker with the latest technology. However I won't move any of the systems the rest of my family has to it, though ... the hardware won't handle it. In that case I'd wind up buying 3 more new computers where the ones they have now do the job perfectly for them. I suspect many are in that situation.

I sense a leveling off in the industry. I'm no expert on industry trends - but I think M$ is going to find it harder and harder to move the user base forward. It will happen - but I don't think it will move at nearly the rate it has before.

Just my 2-cents on that one.

-CB ;-)

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You are not hearing the message

by jdclyde In reply to MS Haters

You hear the loudest, most rabbid MS haters and then stopped listening is sounds like.

Regardless of how much of a MS advocate you are, it is silly to not complain about valid concerns and hold them to a higher standard than they have been.

both Bubba and jon, do you really think it is acceptable to have a company able to fairly well lock the security from illegal copies of XP, but can't secure the way XP runs? The only major focus on security they have had is in sales, not the running of their product.

Another very valid point is the turn around for critical patches, and even the warning of exploits so people can put a "work around" in place until a patch can be developed.

This has nothing to do with #2 hating #1. It is what we SHOULD be able to expect out of ANY and ALL OS's.

If you pay for a product, flaws should be taken care of in an orderly manner. If MS knows about a major exploit and sits on it (like they have done in the past) and that exploit is "exploited", should not MS be held accountable for the damage as a result of their not warning the customers about a KNOWN flaw?

Expect more and hold them to a high standard, instead of making excuses and writing valid complaints off as just sour grapes. Until people START, there is no financial reason for MS to spend the extra development time, and right now it is more important to be first to market with any product.

That, and don't ever lock yourself into a single product as an "end all".

And of course, popular has never meant better. MS has always done MARKETING very well.

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I hear the message the problem is I live in the real world.

by golf24_7 In reply to You are not hearing the m ...

In some respects I agree with what you say but it is not reality.
I have spent most of my career in Quality Assurance and time and again I watch code ship with bugs and some cases known critical flaws. Why, reasons very from nobody will find it, it will never happen, the users should not do that to we have a deadline and we will meet it. The fact of the mater is I can not recall a single time that I have ever seen software delivered that has more then about 10 users actually delivered bug free.

Additionally, I don?t care what OS you are running exposing it directly to the internet without proper patching and monitoring is absurd yet most people I know do this. They get high-speed internet plug their PC in to the modem and leave it on all the time not to mention they don?t run an Anti-Virus and if they do rarely keep it up to date nor do they deploy patches when they are released.

Computers still need regular maintenance regardless of OS.

On final note, we complain that Microsoft can?t protect our computers, that are all different and they don?t directly control, from possible millions of attacker?s everyday yet I bet most of us can?t even adequately secure our own homes.

By the way you are correct that Microsoft has excellent marketing skills on that note so do most cigarette manufactures, car manufactures, Big businesses (ENRON) the point is we hear what we want which is rarely the whole truth.

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Time for accountablity

by jdclyde In reply to I hear the message the pr ...

not complacency.

If an auto maker ships a known defect, they are looking at major law suits where there are damages and even loss of life due to the defect.

If a software developer sends a known defect, it is just part of the game and we scrug our shoulders and hope we have a good backup.

We should be able to hold any and all software deveolopers accountable for any damage or loss due to a defect in their product, including down time.

If MS sits on an exploit for six months and the exploit is discovered and used, MS should be held accountable for anyone with a properly patched system that was exploited.

Expect more or you will never get more.

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