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  • #2189077

    Who’s fooling who?

    Locked

    by miles999 ·

    This post is similar to some of the others so I have hesitated putting this scenario on the board. However, I have always been told the only dumb question is the one you don’t ask, so here goes.

    Currently I am an IT Consultant in San Antonio quite by accident. After relocating here summer of ’04 (spouse AF Nurse) I was still having trouble find good employment as entry level phone support or retail IT sales jobs were and are plentiful. My previous position was IS Manager for an international company grossing about in the $100 mil range. Having trouble locating suitable work I turned to a number of head hunters. Yes, I will name them as two of them gave me specific advice regarding my career and I questions its’ accuracy. TekSystems and Robert Half both indicated that if I were to leave the tech field for even a few months (approx 6) I would be throwing away my previous 12 years of IT experience. Why? They both indicated that if an individual breaks from the field they are considered entry level upon returning as they are no longer considered “current” on the latest in IT. While I can see a certain amount of truth to this I believe on the whole it is a load of bunk. Some aspects of IT simply don’t change that fast. SO…I would like to know if there is anyone from those firms or any other for that matter who would like to step up and answer this question: Does a short break (<12months)regress your IT career to square one when you try to get back in?

    AND a bonus question: I am almost finished with my IT degree and was told by those firms also that without a degree (regardless of certifications) I could rule out over half the IT opportunities available. Is this true?

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    • #3058117

      don’t listen to them

      by gkrew ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      I disagree with the headhunters. Experience and certifification can weigh-in more than a degree. Go finish up your degree. The right job for you will take your background into consideration and you being almost finished could be appealing to a hiring manager. If you worked with an application or software package within the last 12 months I do not see it changing that much between versions that you will be unable to learn the new changes and keep using the program. I do not think you will be back at square one if you leave the IT world but try not to leave it.

      • #3058098

        Current thinking…

        by miles999 ·

        In reply to don’t listen to them

        Thanks for the reply so quickly. My current thinking was to at least be involved in IT on a part time basis if nothing else. There are a number of temp positions always available and it would keep a certain level of continuity over the course of the next year. I had also planned on picking up another cert or two if I was to be part time/unemployed to help add to the “freshness” of my quailifications. Thanks again.

        • #3072293

          Part time or volunteer work

          by mlayton ·

          In reply to Current thinking…

          will mean that you are not of the IT field. Pretty much if you touch a computer, you won’t be “out of the IT field” and as a female who had a break for personal reasons (baby and it was three months), I came right back in running. While its hard to say whether there ACTUALLY was a loss in salary, I’m making more than I was before I left, so I’m happy. If you keep certs current and retain interest in the field enough to read the trades and attend some online or free sessions on the latest stuff, you are already more up to date than the network manager who just knows how the network operates and never opens a trade magazine or checks out the latest trends.

        • #3060874

          Clarification

          by miles999 ·

          In reply to Part time or volunteer work

          My thought was no longer than a 12 month break in the sense of a traditional 60+ hour IT workweek. Something more along the lines of 20-30 while I finish my degree. Concurrently, perform a little IT consulting work on the side if I am not at one of the retail computer shops and pick up an additional cert or two. The theory here being that I can show a gap where I completed the IT degree and picked up a cert or two so the “often uninformed and non IT savvy HR screener” will still pass the resume on. Or the IT person I am networking with look upon it as an effort to stay in the game and current. At least that is my thoughts at the moment.

        • #3060643

          Head hunters are to eager to get you on their books.

          by welshbilly ·

          In reply to Clarification

          I don’t see how having a gap period to finish of your IT degree will have an effect on your employment potential.

          If anything I would have thought it would give you extra advantage. It shows you are dedicated and prepared to take on a commitment and stick to it. That you have focus and willing to update your skill set/education.

          You have said that you are planning to dabble in a few “projects” in between studying, so including that in your CV will only further your chances.

          A lot of these head hunters/recruitment agents are only to eager to get you on their books. They work on commission so they only think of themselves, which you can’t blame them as that is their incentive.

      • #3128417

        I don’t agree with Head hunters

        by mushunjem ·

        In reply to don’t listen to them

        I wouldn’t think so at all, whilst a degree is very important certifications and experience can really outweigh a degree, personally I don’t have a degree but am certified in several critical areas for my job nature, a person taking up this job even if degreed would have a hard time if they are not certified and even then some problems can only be solved through experience.
        Even my boss is less certified and not degreed but has a whole lot more experience than I have and I still learn from him, my advice is it would be best to stay within the field but I don’t necessarilly agree with the Head hunters

        • #3128334

          Networking is the key

          by dayst5 ·

          In reply to I don’t agree with Head hunters

          In my opinion, networking is the most important thing. When moving to a new city, seek out the local user groups and other such organizations. There you can meet people and discuss your qualifications and get an “inside track” on getting an interview.

    • #3058073

      “Horse hockey!”

      by charliespencer ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Finish your degree and then go hunting. Be sure to note on your resume that the break in employment was to finish your degree, and that you left your last position because your spouse was relocated by the Air Force.

      According to their logic, you’d have to start over after a military deployment, illness, extended jury duty or FMLA leave. That’s garbage designed to scare you so you’ll sign up with them as quickly as possible. When you do go hunting again, don’t use these two services. However, while you can get good jobs based on certs and experience, they are correct that there are far more options with the degree.

    • #3058001

      Supply and demand

      by jdmercha ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      As long as they keep getting 100 applications for a single job opening, the first people they weed out will be those without a BS, followed by those without steady IT employment.

      It’s not so much what is required to do the job, but what skills, education, and experience the competition has.

    • #3057994

      Sounds like bunk to me

      by tink! ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Granted, I’m not a super high-tech IT pro but I have been in the IT field for most of my working career. I’ve always been in the office workplace and usually started out as admin asst or equivalent. However, due to my knowledge and abilities in IT I would quickly be moved into a more fitting position.

      I’ve had 3 kids, so needless to say I’ve had a few breaks in my career. I even stayed home for a year after my second child. Now I did notice I felt a little behind when I started working again, and needed some refreshing on a lot of the software features. But, I threw myself in and refreshed/learned as I went. I quickly brought myself back up to speed and beyond thanks to the Internet and forums such as this one, without my employers ever knowing that I had been temporarily.

      I know my position differs from yours as I do not go out seeking high level IT management positions, but I do not believe that the break should affect your hirability. If you have the certifications, are able to show your past experience in the field, and sound like you know what you’re talking about, you should be able to get the positions you want.
      Tink

    • #3057981

      I was out of the field for 2 years

      by master3bs ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Well, in reality only about 20 months. And there were times that I lamented the ability to break back into the industry; especially given the area I had moved to.

      As others have said, the field doesn’t change that quickly. New software and hardware and procedures do come out constantly; but not every company immediately implements them. Even if they do; these are technologies built on what we already know.

      I stepped back into the field as IT Administator of a government facility that supports about 70 computers and 150 users. It wasn’t easy; but I didn’t miss a beat. I came in and knew exactly what to do because of my background. If you do things right; you will too.

    • #3057938

      I.T. marketability

      by ccnp40 ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Miles999@…

      I read your article today and I have one question for you. Did you at any time reveal your age to either Robert Half or TekSystems. The reason I ask is because although it is illegal to discriminate against age along with many others, I think these contractors are looking for really young, entry level techies so to speak. I don’t know if you are an older gentleman but let’s say your 35 or even 40 and they discriminated against your age saying what you described above as “you’d be throwing your career away”. I personally don’t believe that you are obsolete. On another note, I will be moving to San Antonio in the next few months and I am in the I.T. field. Do you think they will discriminate against me?

      contact me @ ccnp40@yahoo.com so we can further discuss this post!

      Thanks,

      CCNP

      • #3057926

        San Antonio

        by charliespencer ·

        In reply to I.T. marketability

        I don’t think you’ll find much age discrimination in San Antonio. I believe it’s a major retirement destination, especially for ex-military. I suspect anybody practicing age discrimination there would soon find themselves without two things: employees and customers.

        • #3070936

          Flooded Market

          by miles999 ·

          In reply to San Antonio

          I would agree there is little age discrimination as we have a huge supply of military/government retirees with the technical skills. I believe this large concentration has helped to flood the market here as I have been frequently told the higher paying IT jobs were up the road in Austin. Many of these folks along with the “cerificate schools” have created an employers market. Recently, KCI had a net admin posting and they received over 2500 apps for the position. I was able to get from the HR folks that after the gleaning they still had almost 500 fully qualified folks for the position of which a majority had some type of four year degree. In the end I guess they did not have to “recruit”, they “selected”.

      • #3044711

        You need to look deeper …

        by psinger1 ·

        In reply to I.T. marketability

        First of all, neither of the organizations you cite represent ‘real’ headhunters. Robert Half mostly does mid-level technical slots; well below what you have done. TekSystems is a pure body shop (google groups for them). For a different point of view check out http://www.asktheheadhunter.com

    • #3072397

      You need a degree…

      by bschaettle ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      A new guy just got hired into my group as a DBA. He has all the relevant certifications, but no degree. He tells me that for the vast majority of the jobs he applied for, having a degree non-negotiable. No degree, no interview.

      What it boils down to is this: a high school diploma no longer has any meaning. Instruction at the high school level has been dumbed down so much that employers now assume that you have to go to college to pick up the basic education that the high schools formerly provided.

      • #3072392

        Absolutely

        by miles999 ·

        In reply to You need a degree…

        At the risk of sounding obvious I had determined a couple of years ago the degree would be the only way to continue in this field (or any other for that matter)as I had gone about as far you can without one. I presently have a year left for my BSIT degree at which point I figure the closed doors will no longer be closed. But my dilemma really occurs if I end up having a break for a few months between now and then. I am probably concerned too much, but I wonder how the break would effect my reentry chances. Granted, the earlier posts indicate that to complete a degree an employer may look past this gap. But I am curious as to how others in this forum have dealt with issue or worked with a colleague that experienced the same.

        • #3046432

          What you can put on your resume

          by foothillscg.com ·

          In reply to Absolutely

          On your resume put:
          Name of University, Full Time Computer Science Student 08/05 – Present
          * Relevant class with an accomplishement (Lead group in producing relevant class project using up-to-date tools/technology – received an ‘A’)
          * Another Relevant class

          I got my MBA during the two years that I was between jobs, and it didn’t keep me out of even Bank interviews (Usually banks are extra picky in HR).

      • #3072307

        Even for those of us with real high school diplomas

        by too old for it ·

        In reply to You need a degree…

        HR “pros” agree that ANY high school diploma (even one dated 1974, when they still taught things) is valuless.

        Get a degree, preferably from a brick-n-mortar. A hard science or business will be even better.

        I’m going back to finish mine (still thinking business, even tho I rather prefer the break/fix side of things, there is no money there).

        (Tho some have suggested a BFA in music or writing and going into academia .. dunno why?)

      • #3044625

        no degree, no problem

        by dvsjr ·

        In reply to You need a degree…

        Anecdotal advice, which is what all this is, won’t provide you
        with hard fast answers. I have no degree, but I feel I have
        enough real world experience to be as or more qualified as a
        degree carrier. Take the IT guy with a degree, and no people
        skills, or the guy doing IT because he heard there was money in
        it. Are they what people are looking for? I guess its where you
        are, and what the company is like, I have always been able to
        present myself to the IT representative from the hiring company
        in such a way that it was obvious I had knowledge enough to
        back up my resume without a degree. (Also, thinking about it,
        the vast majority of friends and co workers in IT also haven’t
        been degreed)

        • #3044517

          no degree, doing fine

          by polymesh ·

          In reply to no degree, no problem

          hey dvsjr, I agree with you. I have been in IT for over 10 years, I am 38 yrs old and have no degree. I have looked into going to college several times, but I choke when I see what it will cost me. Yes, I can probably qualify for a student loan, but I am just not intersted in school. I like learning on my own. Thats how I got started in IT. I was interested, took some classes, got certified, and have been successsful.

        • #3128252

          Experience trumps degree

          by tnelson ·

          In reply to no degree, no problem

          I don’t have a degree (I was hired out of college before I finished), but it hasn’t prevented me from getting work. Granted, if I was competing with someone with equivalent experience and a degree, I would expect to lose, but there aren’t too many folks still in the trenches after twenty years! I don’t use any of the Pascal or structured programming techniques I was taught in college, so I wouldn’t have been able to coast on a degree this long anyway. What I do have is a demonstrated ability to learn and keep abreast of new technologies, and to leverage my general development experience (also known as “knowing when to flinch”).

        • #3128202

          My degrees are in non-IT fields and it used to be OK

          by attackcomputerwhiz ·

          In reply to no degree, no problem

          I have no certs, but I have been in IT for 17+ years. All my education was either OJT or self-directed and I do a good job with network admin and with hardware. But I also find that I am stuck staying with the agency I work for now because everyone wants “new and shiny and cheap”. When they hire those straight out of college, the companies can get away with hiring them as “entry” with delayed benefit packages, confident that many will leave before the benefits kick in.

          Something else that was touched on but not explored: age discrimination could well be a factor in the HH jerking you around. If you have a resume that shows you graduated from high school and college ten years or more ago, then you can be sure that too many companies are shredding it. You will never be told that you are too old, but that is certainly a factor.

          I live in a city where one of the high schools provides IT certs and the students come out with, at a minimum, A+, Cisco and MCSE certs. Those kids are more than willing to go to work for under $20/hour while they go to college, so people like me who consider change are pretty much SOL.

          At my age, I am probably going to go get some initials behind the title just to keep up because my agency is starting the same BS. Those of us actually familiar with the infrastructure are being passed over in favor of new people of the street, too.

    • #3072369

      Not True

      by wan_ukie ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      This is my first post, so be kind.

      I left the IT work force for three years and came back at the same level that I left, but with slightly less money. I am also in IT Management and the necessary skills are the same. I was nervous when I came back, thinking that there might of been more changes, but I quickly found out that the issues were the same, just some new solutions.

      While I was away I did some IT consulting and kept up with what was going on in the industry.

      I do agree that if you want to stay in IT Management the degree is needed. I do not agree if you are a programmer or Analyst.

    • #3072337

      Networking

      by dc guy ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      What counts is how you present the hiatus. Tell them you were exploring another business or career opportunity. Stick as close to the truth as possible and divulge as little as possible.

      A lot of really good people have been laid off and unemployed for long periods. I was out of work for more than a year once and more than six months another time, not on purpose. And a lot of people have tried to start businesses. Most of them fail so it’s no big surprise to find them back in the job market.

      Six months is an exaggeration, nobody is going to hold that against you. The cliche is, “Anything you learned about IT five years ago is obsolete.”

      Not having a degree will limit your opportunities but so will a lot of other things. You have to pick up the set of qualifications that your real life provides you the opportunity to pick up.

      The most important factor in getting a job is networking. I got my last three jobs by having someone who was already there put in a good word for me. So when you’re job hunting the best place to start is the companies where your friends and colleagues work.

      I have a friend with no degree, a GED, an A.A, zero IT experience, in her forties. She’s bright enough that she decided to try getting an MCSE out of the blue, and it was a piece of cake. She told everyone she knew that she was looking. A friend on the other side of the country got her an interview at his place and next thing she knew she was there, using that MCSE.

    • #3072310

      Anecdotal Robert Half Comments

      by too old for it ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Over the past 15 years or so I have been regularly recruited by the senior people in to two Robert Half offices in town. This was for both paralegal and IT work.

      The front line recruiters and/or business development people could never seem to put my butt in a chair.

      Near daily ads on all the job boards and the local litter-box liner, and still no help.

      My fault? Likely. But if they still can’t even get a 18+ year IT vet out for an interview, you have to wonder about them too. Not once. None. Zero interviews.

      Other agencies can place me, even when up against the might Robert Half reps. Go figure.

      So what I’m trying to say is: I’m sorry you wasted your time getting “advice” from Robert Half. It wasn’t worth the time it took to listen to it.

      • #3072271

        Similar experience

        by jamesrl ·

        In reply to Anecdotal Robert Half Comments

        A couple of years ago when I was laid off, an old boss of mine who I was on great terms with, approached Robert Half, one of her current suppliers, on my behalf. Get this man a job she said. Because she had done so much business with them, I met with a VP and then with various others. I was introduced to people on both the temporary side (contracts) and permanent.

        I met with them, followed up, gave them my references in advance. I followed up again. Never a call back……

        Finally a temp agency that didn’t normally do IT got me a contract as a business analyst as a major bank, and I parlayed that into another contract in their IT group. Still no calls from Robert Half ….

        James

    • #3070934

      Thank you

      by miles999 ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      I want to thank everyone for putting in their opinion, it really does allow for some perspective. Sometimes the only way see the issue is to let others frame it from 10,000 ft. I have suspected that much of what has been said was probably true, but it helps when others from outside the area can weigh in. Thanks again.

      • #3060772

        No problem

        by master3bs ·

        In reply to Thank you

        Let us know what happens down the road; ok?

    • #3060663

      What about people who have babies?

      by synnove ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      If the advice you had was true, people could not be out of the IT business for 6 months (or 12) to look after a baby. In Scandinavia, where I live, pboth men and women have baby leave all the time. And I think IT-wise we are just as advanced as the US

      • #3060559

        Different US expectations

        by cberding ·

        In reply to What about people who have babies?

        synnove@:

        Here in the US, you very rarely get any sort of substantial leave for the birth of a child unless you’ve been with a company for more than a year and most of the time that (FMLA) can be unpaid. Good luck if you’re a guy. Most of the guys in my contracting gig were back in less than a week after their kids were born.

        Most companies think three months is too long for you to be out of the loop. All I have to say is, that is BS.

        I had to find an IT job while pregnant, and I managed to get one with a contracting firm. I was replacing someone, so they just kept her a little longer than they expected. I was off exactly eight weeks (only because I had a C section). I stayed in the loop with e-mail.

        If I ever have another child, I will be off for at least three months. I suffered tremendously (trying to make things work for me and my child) and much of this could have been avoided if I had had an extra four weeks off. I left contracting mainly because I wanted this option and the better benefits (i.e. sick time, leave, etc.) if I decide to do this again.

    • #3060558

      I agree and more…

      by pcross ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      I came into this feild thru CAD/CAM which required me to be administrator of PC’s and Unix systems as well for a smaller company. Eventually I took courses for my MCSE and wound up administering the entire network for the company and writing extensive web applications. Trying to keep ahead of the learning curve for all the software, hardware and technology coming down the pike as well as dealing with every sudo geek who wants my job is very hard.

      I feel the burn out rate in IT is going to be worse than wheathermen or dentists. Everyone hates us for just doing our job, and they expect us to know EVERYTHING. It is easy for management to be swayed by tech words from sudo gurus.

      I am fortunate to have a boss who trusts I have the best interest of the company in mind, but he creates more issues by controlling the almighty dollar with a tight fist and leaving me to explain to angry employees that read an article about what they think they need. Often I have to jerry-rig some solution to save company costs which makes fellow employees more annoyed at ME.

      Yes I think the burnout rate is HIGH. But I hire a lot, so I have a different view of the six months out of the position though. For the lower level techy like I would hire, I WANT the 6 months hungry for a job. The guys just out of school, or just out of another position do not realize the politics I deal with. When you have not worked in the feild for 6 months you hear me better when I say we have to make a work around until budgets are looser.

      But if the boss were replacing me, I feel he would need someone current in technology. 6 months out of work would be too long.

      Besides, six months out of this feild, I would be happily doing something else where people don’t hate me because they can’t surf the web on company time! All I know is I would appreciate my system administrator much more than they do me!

      • #3046555

        Hmmmmmm…Yessss

        by armandocanales ·

        In reply to I agree and more…

        I am now 45yrs old w/years of experience & no certs. Didn’t need ’em B4. BSET from Texas A&M 1980&2…When I sit down w/”Brad or Chad” (Interchangable) 22yrs 0ld /no life experience…at the mandatory headhunter interview, I invariably get ” Dude! you’ve done alot of stuff, but it’s all in the past!” Isn’t that the point? Only way out is to start my own business…I feel UR pain…been there…done that….

    • #3044716

      Experience matters

      by jon_baumgardner ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      There are lots of employers that require a BS degree. I am an independent consultant. I travel to the project. I found that certifications help but a degree is required. Now the big question is “Where is the new hot IT market?” I am beginning to think that it is in Gaming with PHP and Second Life’s LSL language. Java, C++ are pretty much required too.

    • #3044682

      Recruiters qualifications?

      by mjackson ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      You have to ask yourself what amount of IT experience these headhunters themselves have? How does someone with no IT experience, who is nothing more than a telemarketer end up controlling the careers of people with an extensive skillset? You should try and avoid using these individuals at all costs.

      • #3126651

        Why not?

        by noyoki ·

        In reply to Recruiters qualifications?

        All a head-hunter does (I was a receptionist for one at one point in time) is take people’s resume online, see what jobs they have on their list to be filled, and try to make a match. Taking their advice may not be the best thing to do, as you said, they aren’t in the industry. However, they do (well, SOME of them do) quite abit of research in whatever field they are recruiting for. but as far as avoiding at all costs, you never know where your next job will appear from. If, 11 months down the road, while you are jobless and looking, a recruiter calls you up, says “listen, I have this awesome job you might fit with great salary and benefits”. Would you shoot them down just because they are a recuiter? I wouldn’t…

    • #3044678

      Yes and No

      by jdclyde ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      First, it depends on the level of tech. A manager doesn’t have to be as hands-on with the tech as someone applying for a sys admin job.

      Second, bigger employers LIKE to see peices of paper with big names and lots of initials on it. This is twice as true for management.

      The thing to keep in mind, they make money by placing you NOW, not in 12 months. A fact that good sales people know, if you don’t close the sale NOW, odds are your never going to. They don’t want you taking that break as it isn’t money in THEIR pockets.

    • #3044640

      Both Side of the Story

      by ttrimb1e ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Miles999,

      I have been in the IT field more than 30 years (yes an old guy). I have been on both sides of this story. I have gaps in my employment which I think hurt me any time I change jobs. I don’t think much of most recruiting companies as far as placing experienced people. I think you need to do that yourself. I have also been the CTO of two companies, in a position to hire people. I highly value certifications, because I know how difficult some of them are. I have worked with people who have degrees but no practical knowledge. I will take the guy with the certs. My other advice is remember IT is more than just the help desk kind of environment, most industries use computers in everything. An example, I am currently in the gaming industry which utilizes a lot of “IT” type people. It is a bit unstable, but lots of opportunity. Good Luck in the future.

    • #3044637

      I was out for over 2 years!

      by minion ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Hello,

      You are right to be wary of ?head hunters?! I have found them to be NOOO help despite the number of hours I have spent interviewing with them, taking aptitude tests, filling out online profiles and applying for positions they?ve posted on the ?net.

      I worked in the Houston market until I got burned out and left a network mgr position in Jan ’01. It didn’t take too long to realize my earning potential and interests were still in IT (about 6 months). However, it wasn’t until March ’03 that I finally got a job in IT again.

      When I got back I felt “rusty” at times, but that didn’t last long. I was able to speak to the consultant that this company used while they were without a network engineer and he helped to get me acquainted with the architecture and flow of this company’s systems. You are right. There’s not that much that changes in it. The concepts and principles don’t change much. Maybe just some new equipment and a new version of this or that…

      In the interim I painted houses, mowed grass, took a job as a secretary, and had a position as an inside salesman for a year. I did whatever I could find that would pay decent because in all that time I had less than 5 interviews for IT positions. Most of those were phone interviews only and never went further.

      The severe limiting factor for me was not having a degree. When I got started in IT in ’97 everything was so hot all you had to have was the ability. Now the market has cooled off and employers have raised the bar on requirements. There are fewer positions and more applicants so you can do the math…

      Best wishes,
      Corey

    • #3044636

      21 + years in IT and I have no degree or certs

      by gnx ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      I have no college degree or MS certs. I have been in IT for over 21 years. I basically set up servers and networks, and repair computers, printers and the phone system for my company. I learned all this on the job. I am in the middle of upgrading my servers to Server 2003. I find if you have common sense you can do anything you set your mind to. Stuff like programming a router I just contract that out. How often do you do that in a medium sized shop? Once its up and running, its all set until you replace it. Just my opinion.

      • #3044556

        …and a fine opinion it is!

        by kwaller ·

        In reply to 21 + years in IT and I have no degree or certs

        I too have over 21 years in IT (26 to be exact). As time and resumes progress, I feel that the morphing of skills from one technology to another painted a picture of someone that is capable of learning new technologies, applying them, and “thinking outside the box” with them (actually that term makes me gag a little :-)). One recent position I held was offered to me because of my wide range of experience. At that point I had no degree (still don’t) and no certs – primarily due to that fact that I stay really busy applying what I know and learn, and because I have a home life as well. I was offered a postion as a network/systems admin for a convenience store corporation with 160+ stores due to that range of experience and adaptability. Learning on my own, I am migrating the NT servers to Linux and opening up new worlds for them (and me!). As you said, just my opinion.

    • #3044573

      Nevermind what others say. Do what you need for your own life.

      by ordinarysoul ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      I took a sabbitical for eight months. Some people see it as a loss of value. I find it truely valuable, wish I had done it sooner. I re-entered the field with a better perspective and more energy. It also adds more years to life, saves sanity. I had to start with a lower paying, not so good temp position when I just returned, but eventually moved on to a more stable position, and it’s a much much better one than the one I left behind right before the sabbatical.

    • #3044560

      Maybe yes, maybe no

      by foothillscg.com ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      It depends on what applications you know. As an IT recruiter who knows 5 obsolete computer programming languages, I’ve run into a number of candidates that have had time out of work, or been out of the IT field, but they had a hard-to-find skill set (MRI reporting, etc.), and we were able to place them. Another had the skill set our clients were looking for, but hadn’t touched it in 4 or 5 years. He got placed.

      Regarding “almost finished with my IT degree”:
      If you mean you’re two classes from completion, that shouldn’t be a problem. Most companies will work with you on that. If you mean you’re half way there, it’s still better than no college at all. (And if you know MRI reporting and are in the San Diego area, we don’t care if you haven’t finished high school!)

      If you have been working full time (12 units a quarter/semester) on your IT degree during the time you have been off work, that shouldn’t be a problem, either.

      Good luck with your search, and yes, you can send me your resume if you want. (Is that against the rules?)

    • #3044542

      Degree is valuable

      by davida ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      I’ve been involved in a few searches in the last couple of years, and unfortunately, for two of them (mid-level and senior-level techs) the degree was a requirement. We had one applicant who was fantastic; had been involved in development of the software we were hiring to support, but had no degree and had no intention of getting one. We were not allowed to consider them. We can use the “degree or experience” for lower level positions, but for anything mid-to-high level, we’re required to stipulate a degree. We get around it to some extent by saying “CS degree or related field”, and can argue just about anything as “related”. Of course, smaller companies can be more flexible, but getting that paper will get you included in many searches you’d otherwise be excluded from just for not having the letters “BS” on your resume.

      • #3126698

        Degrees vs. Experience

        by Anonymous ·

        In reply to Degree is valuable

        I wouldn’t want to work for some company that thinks a piece of paper is more important than how well or even IF an individual can perform their duties! Anyone can go write papers and read books until they are blue in the face. But those that have real-world experience can actually DO things and even fix the unexpected.

        Another route is to work as an independant contractor. Be able to show some kind of proof or have a presentation on a mini-CD or memstick handy to show off what you know you can do (without giving away too many of your secret tricks of the trade).

        I hear that its mostly on how well you can sell yourself. I’ve known people without degrees who do well enough to pay the bills and live comfortably. If you can prove that they NEED you, then they’d be stupid not to hire you. And if they are THAT dumb, then they 1. don’t deserve to have you working for them and 2. would only provide a rather uncomfortable working environment.

        Also there are many who are disabled and could not for some reason get a degree or other certifications. Yet I know of some who do well anyway. Most opt to be self-employed consultants and/or independant contractors. This might be another area to look into. It seems there is more of this going on now that the traditional work-for-the-company deal. And sometimes those types of jobs even lead to a work-for-the-company deal (as it did with me).

        Networking is also a great way to look. Get to know people, expand your social/business network, and get the word out not just that you’re looking for work, but what you can DO and how WELL you can do it. Maybe fix a friend or two’s computer once or twice and let them crow about your expertise. 🙂

        I would love to get a Computer Science degree with a concentration on Artificial Intelligence and Robotics. But, I never could afford it. 🙁 Plus there is no degree programs for what I am doing right now – and enjoying: Web Design and tech writing with a little script writing, graphics, etc. thrown in here and there. I don’t even know of any certifications for this. And I’m quite happy with my job.

        What you need depends on what you ultimately want to do and how happy you’ll be doing the job. If you want to get a job that requires a degree, be sure they are requiring a degree not because it’s “fashionable” to have degreed employees, but also because they are taking into consideration the employees’ experience and knowledge. Too many companies I think are requiring degrees so they can “look good” or look “high-end”. But then their employees won’t know what to do if the situation wasn’t covered in a textbook or lab simulation. 🙁

        And one last note… didn’t Bill Gates himself drop out of college? I think I read that somewhere. Did he ever go back and finish his degree?

    • #3044513

      Stick to your guts and forgt about HH

      by haas ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      My friend, don’t let anybody fool you. Headhunters are here because of the IT people. Imagine if the field or the pool of IT people like you and me keeps shrinking because of luck of good paying jobs and outsourcing, the HH would be fighting to find (quialified) IT people. So our existense justifies theirs and as a results it’s in their best interest to give you that kind of advice. What about those people who lost their jobs and they are still out of work and/or maybe working in different fields (retail, sales, and what not), is their 5, 10 or 20 years of IT experience gone because they lost their jobs and not currently working the IT field for the last few years?…Their advice just doesn’t cut it and doesn’t make sense.

      Back when the IT field was hot, headhunters were making tons of money and all of IT people then were also making good money as well. I used to get several offers from various HH, and guess what they were fighting among themselves about who will hire/place me because they would make money of course. They really don’t give a shit about your future or whether the company (that you will work for) is the perfect fit for you or not. All they care about is to place you as quickly as possible so that they can get the “fat easy” check.

      My best advice to you, do whatever you think would help you and your career goals. Have a plan and stick to it. If you are thinking about finishing your IT degree, please finish it, if you are also thinking about certfications later on, please go for it. Anything that you can learn (the learning process never stops)and will help you upgrade your skills please go for it.

      I have my BS and MS in Information Systems and just got my A+ and MCSA certs and currently working towards completing my MCSE 2003 cert. I lost my job and was out of work for about 2 yrs and now I am working at a community college helping teachers introduce more technology in their classrooms and support thte college’s online courses system (WebCT Admin) as well as updating the online website. It doesn’t pay me much like I used to before but I am getting a paycheck, healthcare benefits and supporting my kids and family. And still hoping for a better future…Never give up.

      Those are my 2 cents.

    • #3046729

      It really depends how you approach returning to IT

      by tim ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      If you expect to go back and do something you’ve done before
      (even for many years) you may hit a problem because your
      experience does not appear ‘recent’. For some strange reason it
      assumed that everyone forgets how to do things they’ve done
      before, or won’t be as good as they were before. This may be
      true for some people, but in my experience certainly isn’t true
      for anything like the majority.

      On the other hand, if you research what IT skills are very new
      and on the rise in the last few months of your career break and
      make sure that you are up to speed with those skills (and maybe
      have some courses/certificates) then in my experience it’s likely
      that you’ll be snapped up. IT has much in common with the
      fashion industry. It’s very fickle and short-term. If you are the
      first person in your location to pick up a hot new skill you will be
      considered ‘in fashion’ and won’t have any problem working
      again. I can think of many people I know who have jumped on an
      IT bandwagon quickly & decisively (e.g. Dreamweaver,
      Broadvision, Siebel, ETL tools, XML, J2EE) and who obtained
      great new positions with only a few months of experience. I can
      also think of many people who didn’t try to keep up with any
      trends who have found it much more difficult to get back into IT.

      I can’t tell you what the relevant IT fashion trends are for you,
      but things I’ve been keeping up to speed with recently are: SOA
      & ESB’s, metadirectories & virtualisation.

      Hope these ideas help. To summarise I think the chances of
      getting back into IT are very much influenced by how you
      position yourself.

    • #3128356

      Reply To: Who’s fooling who?

      by jdoug03 ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Yes, I would say that for the most part it has held true for myself and most of my collegues. In fact the one collegue I know who was able to secure employment was probably the least qualified and the worst IT Tech of all my friends. With that in mind I have to attribute his success primarily to good fortune and not to skill. Most IT techs in my age group, 50+, have abandoned IT as we cannot secure positions.

    • #3128353

      IT in San Antonio

      by paul232 ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Miles,

      I am actually moving back to San Antonio at the end of March as I am leaving the Air Force. I find your post interesting and of course makes me a little apprehensive about the job market there. I have some questions and would like to take it off the boards and into email. Can you drop me a line at paul232@hotmail.com? Thanks.

      Paul Wishart

    • #3128329

      Reply To: Who’s fooling who?

      by djosendale ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Hi,

      Rather than focusing on the gap in your employment from a negative perspecitve, consider what you have learned from your time out of IT. If you took another job in the interim, did you gain any new insights into business processes or practices that could help you be more effective; or were you in a postion where you had to rely on your “soft” skills versus technical skills to get your job done?

      Getting your self back into an IT positon can happen, but you need to think about how to market all of your skills in a way that matters to an employer. Examples:
      Your persistence in hanging in there demonstrates a level of commitment that can be clearly translated as “I’m able to stick with tough situations and find positive solutions to them”.
      A new or fresh perspecitve gained from working in non-IT jobs can also be presented from the perspecitve on new insight into the value or furstrations of technology from the “user” perspective. That insight has increased your understanding from the user side and makes you more effective as an IT professional.

      If IT is where you want to be, do not give up on what you want. Use this as an opportunity to to demonstrate the increased value and effectivenss your bring because of these expereinces!

      Good Luck!

    • #3128294

      Not true

      by richard ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      This is definitely not true. I have done this twice.
      While I would not say that I left the field, I took 6 months off twice. Both times I continued to work in my lab and the second time I updated 4 certs.
      It is always hard to find a good job. Employers really are not looking to spend 100k. They will when the NEED to, so you have to find the correct corp at the correct time. This said, they will still need an answer to why there is a gap in your work history, you will also need to convince them that your current knowledge is relevant to their needs. As for Robert Half and TekSystems, I have had experience with both of them.
      Robert Half, they are accounts trying to capitalize on their business contacts. I think it needs to be said and known in the industry, that they are not good at IT. I had experience with them in Miami, fl and when I moved to Washington DC and asked other engineers I got negative feedback. I have been called in to customers who told me horror stories about using Robert Half and I have taken over the account.
      As for TekSystems, they are larg and it really depends on who you deal with. I still have a contact that I like. At the same time I had to tell them not to call me without going through the contact that I worked with. It seemed that every new recruiter they hired would call me and ask me questions that were clearly answered on my Resume.
      I would still deal with them, but you need to set up some ground rules. Recruiters are like everyone else you find a wide range of skills.

    • #3128251

      Experience and Accomplishments are most important

      by frwagne ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Work up a good resume, detail what you’ve done, the scope, the details, and get it out on Monster and Dice. The folks that need what you’ve done will find YOU. My MS was 28 years ago, have had lots of interesting experience since – no certifications until this past year. Those certifications (Kofax and FileNet) are fairly rare, getting some very interesting leads from my Monster and Dice postings. Still waiting for some closer to home – just declined to interview for a perfect fit in Austin TX – because of my family situation I can’t leave So Calif right now.
      Degrees are nice, certifications are nice, but get the whole story out there online. I’ve never had any luck with Robert Half – they’re looking for exact fits, not people who have learned in all kinds of situations and can learn more still.

    • #3128195

      job market is not good

      by bg6638 ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      I’m in my early fifties, have worked as a COBOL & Foxpro programmer for 32 years, plus have spent 18+ years working as an administrator with DOS 1.x-6.0, NT 3.5, 4.0, Win2k, Exchange, SQL, ISA, etc. I’ve been looking for a job for over a year after my employer went bankrupt. Various headhunters have told me that since I only have an Associates Degree, that I need not bother to apply for any jobs in my area of the country (MidWest). They’ve said that a minimum of a B.S. in MIS plus at least FIVE frontline certs i.e. MCSE 2k & 2k3 with messaging & security, CCIE, CISSP, RHCE, plus at least five years of experience at mid-sized company with multiple locations is required. I have only worked at “one person” IT shops my entire career. As for the time lapse, one recruiter said that is proof that I am not a viable candidate for employment. Their recommendation: Retire!!! I can not afford to retire for another 10 years!! 30+ years just went up in smoke!!!!

      To make matters worse, the AAB degree is not recognized by any accredited 4 yr school. I have to start a square one, if I want to obtain a B.S. degree in MIS.

      • #3083171

        Simular Situation

        by churchdeacon ·

        In reply to job market is not good

        I too am early fifties, worked as a mainframe Batch COBOL DB2 programmer. Five years for the federal government and Nineteen years as a w2 contractor. Contract ended in 2/2003 I didn’t get back into the field until 9/2004. I only had an AAS degree in Computer Programming (1991). My in road was back into the government. Currently working on my BS degree at Strayer University. Salary dropped 38k with the gov. but it’s twice as much as the security guard jobs I took in the meantime.

    • #3128162

      Maybe for Teksystems and Robert Half Corps.

      by ican2 ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      After reading your post I remebered when I was out of the IT workforce for almost 18 months. I did some contract work here and there but for most of that time I was out of the field. I posess an IT degree myself and have a long track record and 10 years work history to prove my abilities.

      What I experienced in my job search when I did re-enter the market was the fact that many of thses IT “recruiters” are nothing more than sales people who know diddly. But it’s a great way to coerce you into accepting less money. Robert Half and Teksystems pay little in the contract market. I’ve worked with Teksystems contractors on a few assignments in the past, their poeple were paid a good $3.00 to $10.00 less an hour than I and were not qualified to do the most basic IT functions. Their “recruiters” were idiots! If they can’t prequalify a person and place competent contractors, they obviously didn’t know much.
      But these outfits get what they deserve. They came into the field to force good, qualified IT experts to accept less pay and many have left the field altogether. If I were you, I’d just look elsewhere and pay no attention to a bunch of salaried sales people who are only looking for a warm body to meet thier commission requirements. Do some more searching for professional IT placement services that will work FOR you and not try to throw you into some position they can’t fill because their cut of the stated wages are too high and they expect someone to work for next to nothing.

      Good luck in your search.

    • #3129788

      Not necessarily true . .

      by jb-mcse ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Hi Miles999. I see that you are in Texas, maybe the ‘rules’ are different down there. I was in IT for 11 years with experience that kept gaining in complexity. I had achieved two Microsoft MCSE certifications, and two Associate’s Degrees before I was laid off in June of 2004. It was exactly six months before I found another job. My MCSE certification was what landed me a two-month contract working for the DOD (Department of Defense). Then, during the contract, I interviewed at another company while I was still on the DOD contract, and boom! they offered me the job right at the end of the interview.

      Now, I am making more money than I was at my previous company, enough to finish up my Bachelor’s Degree in Computer Information Systems. I have a colleague who has a CCNA, CCNP and CCDP who was unemployed for a year. He is back in an IT position, as well.

      My recommendation for when you speak to your TekSystems and Robert Half associates again, is to ask them to offer you specific cases or instances of folks who had issues when they took time away from IT. Unemployment didn’t hurt me. I was fortunate that my state (Colorado) offers monies to unemployed folks who are Seniors in their Bachelor’s Degree program (which I was at the time). I got state monies to take classes while I was unemployed. It really helped my job search. Employers would ask me what I was doing and I would say, “Going to school to finish my Bachelor’s in CIS.” It was always viewed as positive.

      Take their advice with a grain of salt and make your own path.

      best of luck,

      JB

    • #3129651

      I contracted with Tek-Systems and it seems like you got a bad represenative

      by jmgarvin ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Tek Systems is actually one of the better firms to contract under. Not only are they quite professional, but they also provide free training and support seminars.

      I would bet your Rep didn’t understand the business or was trying to pressure you into a job. Which seems odd for Tek Systems, but who knows.

      Robert Half is pretty meh. They are slow to respond and not on the ball with contract jobs.

      • #3129584

        Agree

        by rb_itprofessional ·

        In reply to I contracted with Tek-Systems and it seems like you got a bad represenative

        I too contracted with Tek Systems, and I am happy with what they’ve been able to help me accomplish thus far. I did receive one contract that was just a horrible match, but they worked quickly to rectify the situation. Bottom line, is that one has to conduct market research on their own in order to get a good understanding of the market. Having a relationship with a good recruiter you can trust is also key. The guy that I work with is excellent and seems to be on the pulse of what is going on.

    • #3129646

      generally not true…

      by frostbite ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      unless you are in a rapidly developing technology area, a break of less than a year should not set you back to be considered entry-level. IT practices should not evolve that fast, at least from what I have seen.

      also, degrees and certs are good… but as a hiring manager myself, I would tend to look at the relevant experience of a person over his paper credentials.

    • #3126431

      On Target

      by osumiller ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      These folks are unfortunately on target for the most part. I have seen these types of hiring practices first hand.

      Here is my story: I left the IT field partly due to burn out where I was working, and primarily because I joined the military following the attacks on September 11, 2001. My military specialty is still in IT/Communications. After Being gone for a year due to training, and coming back into the IT market, I couldn’t even get a phone call in spite of having over 4 years of experience. The only interviews that I got were at companies no one wanted to work for, and for entry level positions. I neither had my degree or certifications. What was discovered once I took a position, was that the Management thought I was the find of the Century. They were paying me as though I was a)college drop-out, or b)entry level.

      Once you get back into things for about a year, it seems to get better again, and HR folks will consider your previous experience in a new light.

    • #3082689

      Empower Yourself

      by jelder06 ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      I’ve been in IT now for more than 25 years and needless to say – have seen a lot of changes. My love for the profession gives me the will to keep myself abreast of what’s going on in IT. I’ve had several gaps in employment, but was able to always bounch back. The gaps were sometimes more than 6 months, but every time, I made sure when I returned I had the correct “artillery” to be marketable. That’s the key! Keep reading, find out whats hot, and educate on what employer want. I even volunteered as a Lan Admin for a few months until the right opportunity arose. Just believe in yourself and your ability, the rest will fall in place if you have a “real love” for the profession.

      • #3082610

        Thanks J

        by richard ·

        In reply to Empower Yourself

        I’m going through one now.
        Have done it before.
        This time the path seem a bit harder to find as far as valuable skills updates.

    • #3082672

      test

      by shawn.alvey ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      test

    • #3098332

      Stay away from Teksystems or Robert .5

      by gomistate69 ·

      In reply to Who’s fooling who?

      Both Teksystem and Robert Half are full of crap. I have many “Teksystems sucks” stories to tell from first hand experience and from other IT people I have met over the years. Unfortunatley for Teksystems these stories are from all over, not just one area. Pay, raises and bonuses for finding other consultants not being paid, thses are only the beging.

      As for Robert.5, I know of several high level network admins that were unable to find work through RH. RH also used to test their canidates, why do I need to take a test after passing my CCNA, CCIP,MCSE??

      • #2652593

        Yep!!…..

        by eb555 ·

        In reply to Stay away from Teksystems or Robert .5

        I have no disrespect for those agencies or for TEKsystems. As for TEKsystems, I just got a BS degree in IST from Penn State and they tried to offer me a really low paying job and made me feel like I was a janitor in the IT field. I told the guy I was programming a TRS-80 before you was even born and you are going to only give me this low amount? I almost felt like if I went and got a Masters and to Phd in IST they would try to up my position to pumping gas and washing car windows!! In my state of PA to have a temp agency it would cost $300.00 for a license and a $3,000.00 bond to be a temp agency!!

      • #2796615

        Teksystems recruiters are very tricky

        by ilikecheeseburgers ·

        In reply to Stay away from Teksystems or Robert .5

        Look I have worked for Teksystems on and off since around 2000. I can tell you first hand that nor I or a friend were paid a referral bonus, when we each referred someone for a job at our site. I can also tell you that a recruiter was dumb enough to offer me the same job my friend was offered by Kforce for $3/hr less.

      • #2796577

        I’ve never had a problem with Tek Systems

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to Stay away from Teksystems or Robert .5

        I consulted with them in Albuquerque and I have to say they were excellent and quite responsive. They also fit me to correct consulting gigs.

        On that note, I’ve never had any luck with Robert Half….

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