General discussion


Why the Constant Arguing

By rkuhn ·
Ok, I have my favorite OS...Windows.

Others have theirs...Linux, MAC, Unix, etc.

Why the constant bickering?

If you don't like my OS, Windows, there are plenty of other choices for you. I don't discount your choice of OS, so why discount my choice?

I've picked my OS that fits my wants and needs the most among other reasons and you've picked yours.

It should stop there. I don't try to "convert" anyone. To each his own.

But the Linux crowd are like a bunch of religious zealots. I'm stupid, uninformed, lazy, dumb, etc if I choose Windows? Why?

If you don't like Windows, don't use it. It's that simple. If you don't like Microsoft, don't buy their products. It's that simple.

But we all have our wants and needs, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. We all make our decisions based on our own situation. Don't prejudge.

What works for me may or may not work for you. That's the beauty one is putting a gun to your head.

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There's a reason for that.

by apotheon In reply to Interesting

The reason the market is so slow to correct itself in this matter is that it's not really a free market. It's a managed market in a mixed economy.

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Also a monopoly ISN'T a free market

by jmgarvin In reply to There's a reason for that ...

The barried to entry are too high and the need for complements too great to enter freely (exiting is easy)....

The monopoly that MS has has killed the OS market for, FINALLY, something is happening and reality is setting in...

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Most Active Users

by rkuhn In reply to Why the Constant Arguing

1. HAL 9000
2. NZ_Justice
3. nighthawk808
4. jmgarvin
5. apotheon

And they are all Linux lovers.

I'd bet if anyone, anywhere on TR posted anything about Windows that was positive, these same people would come out of the woodwork.

That was kind of my point with this discussion.

What these guys don't understand is that the 85% market share plus home users of Windows just don't engage in debates with them because it is meaningless and a waste of their time.

These five think they are the majority.

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Most active in WINDOWS discussions maybe

by jdclyde In reply to Most Active Users

An incorrect generalization, as I have seen HAL 9000 be very fair to all points of view, and is regularly in the TQ&A helping people with Windows problems.

Garvin, while pro-linux, has always been very open in his discussions and does not beat you with linux but does counter the FUD when people make intentionally incorrect statements about what Linux can or can't do.

Apotheon, while always right, tends to lose patience with people that again are making statements about linux based on FUD that they have been told, and are propogating the lie. The mighty club "cluefinder" is brought out a little quicker! ;\

Justice, I haven't been keeping up on his rants and raves so I can't make a judgement on that.

Nighthawk, tends to be a little more abusive, but hey, nobodies perfect, right?

But they are doing what people do in a DISCUSSION. Bring their ideas to the table, support their ideas, and listen to other peoples support of alternative views. That is how you LEARN something, by challenging your own beliefs and views.

People with the same views as you have, leave you nothing to debate other than who likes X feature better.

Home users don't engage them because home users are not interested in anything better, if it requires any effort at all on their parts. If they push a button, click on a few pictures on the screen and something happens, they are happy.

Anyone that discounts or disregards any technology out there is a fool. There is generally not a single one perfect tool for everyone, and again it is foolish to claim otherwise. Use the right tool for the right job. You not knowing how to use one of the tools does not make the tool any less valid.

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Who's the Tool now?

by jchapple In reply to Most active in WINDOWS di ...

I prefer Linux for my software projects, as it is easier to deal with when running Java application servers. But...

If Linux is the best tool out there right now, how come it is so hard to use? I have been trying to train a bunch of people who can do anything on Windows and zOS, but Linux just baffles them.

I agree that Linux is better for many things, but if people cannot use it, then it is worthless. For example, a high powered sports car does me no good in the dead of a Minnesota winter. It does not matter how many Car and Driver articles are written about how good it is. The same for Linux on the desktop. Every December I read predictions that Linux will be on the desktop in the coming year, and every year guess what? It did not happen, but just wait until next year when Linux will replace Windows on the desktop.

If Linux is the better tool out there, then prove it. It has to be easy enough for a moron in a hurry to use it (to borrow a phrase from the legal profession). Since it is not, it will never make progress.

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I'd say you're a monkey wrench.

by apotheon In reply to Who's the Tool now?

1. That had nothing to do with what jdclyde was saying.

2. There wasn't any (good) reason to imply jdclyde is a "tool" in your commentary.

3. Linux is plenty easy. It just isn't Windows, and if you're used to Windows you have to adjust.

4. Some things on Linux are not easy, despite the fact most things are. I'll take that over the Windows approach any day of the week: many things are easy, a few things are difficult, and many things are impossible.

5. If you think a moron in a hurry can't use some version of Linux, you haven't encountered Xandros, MEPIS, Linspire, or any of a number of other Windows-alikes. That, or the moron that can't use these things won't be able to use Windows either.

6. Linux isn't the be-all and end-all. It's just usually a better option than Windows, in my experience, to judge on purely technical terms. The only really compelling reason to use Windows in most cases is the simple fact that there are a lot of other people using it, and the tools that run on it, too. Even that reason is beginning to go the way of the dodo, with the increasing ability of Linux-compatible tools to interoperate with Windows-compatible tools.

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Something you end support guys always forget

by jdclyde In reply to Who's the Tool now?

is that linux already is better for many of the SERVER applications, providing the tool that I was refering to. I know you in your little desktop world the same as many other windows guys, you forget that without the SERVER, there isn't information to share, and your network of workstations lost a lot of their value. Get into web servers, and the larger ones are not running on a windows platform.

If you agree that linux is better for many things, you use it for the "many things".

If you also believe this, why the hostile reply to me? Why turn around and demand that I prove to you that anything is anything?

Or were you really replying to someone else, as I AM the one that said use what works?

Is the determination of is something is "better" only if a moron can use it? YOU are using windows, right......... :0 (that is just too funny!)

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I for one am glad

by shelli_2005 In reply to Most Active Users

we use Windows on the desktops here, I cant imagine "Susie Q" in Acct or "Joe-Bob" out in the field trying to use a Linux workstation...I can hear them now if we tried that.. "Well this thing doesnt even have the internet installed!"(Translation: no big blue E)
and "My email doesnt work" (Translation: no Outlook icon).It's a fact, "Joe and Susie Average" are used to Windows and dont want to learn Linux (or anything else)

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If you OWN a business for profit

by jdclyde In reply to I for one am glad

will you really make major decisions one what an employee "wants"?

You pay "joe and suzie" to do a job. If part of that job is to learn a new version of MS Word, or switching to FireFox, or even running a linux work station, what they WANT means NOTHING to the bottom line of the company. This is NOT a reason to make a decision.

Migration to any new package takes training and buy-in from the highest levels. The people that addapt to the changes will prosper, the ones that are too stupid or lazy will be replaced.

The trained monkeys you work with can be trained if they had to. After all, these same people did not just sit down and start using MS products. They were TRAINED to use them.

You are confusing a lazy person with someone that CAN'T learn something NEW AGAIN.

A few years back, Dow Chemical went through and pulled out all the MAC's and put in PC's. These people had to learn to use the PC or get a new job. Jobs change, and the less you expect out of people, the less you will get.

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I don't hide that I am pro-FLOSS and pro Linux

by jmgarvin In reply to Most Active Users

I've said before (and I'll say it again), I like .Net. Some of the features are quite nice. I wish there was as clear and "integrated" IDE for Linux. "You act as if liking Linux and finding the ideals of FLOSS better than that of proprietary software is something dirty and at best suburban. Without FLOSS we'd be stuck in the days of IBM and Sun when all software was proprietary and only the vendor (for a cost) could "save" you."

What "these five" do is squash the FUD. There is too much bogus being thrown around about MS and I've grown tired of it. While I do give MS some props (eg for cleaning up AD in Win2k3), I must say that to slobber all over them is not only silly, but stupid.

They have an insecure OS, with insecure apps, that are built off the same turd that they started with in the NT days.

My suggestions have ALWAYS been:
A) Deintegrate IE (Vista STILL doesn't do it)
B) Kill the whole idea of the registry
C) Make a true multi-user OS
D) Clean up the architecture so that it IS secure
E) Stop lying to the developers about what a certain API is or does
F) FUNCTIONALITY over FORM...for the love of god, no body cares about the new OS X alike interface, where is WinFS? Where is the new functionality that was promised?

In other forums I've also posted that MS is going down the same road IBM traveled in the 80's. They need to clean up their game, get lean and mean, and start over....

* Edited to add the portion in quotes.

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