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Why the Constant Arguing

By rkuhn ·
Ok, I have my favorite OS...Windows.

Others have theirs...Linux, MAC, Unix, etc.

Why the constant bickering?

If you don't like my OS, Windows, there are plenty of other choices for you. I don't discount your choice of OS, so why discount my choice?

I've picked my OS that fits my wants and needs the most among other reasons and you've picked yours.

It should stop there. I don't try to "convert" anyone. To each his own.

But the Linux crowd are like a bunch of religious zealots. I'm stupid, uninformed, lazy, dumb, etc if I choose Windows? Why?

If you don't like Windows, don't use it. It's that simple. If you don't like Microsoft, don't buy their products. It's that simple.

But we all have our wants and needs, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. We all make our decisions based on our own situation. Don't prejudge.

What works for me may or may not work for you. That's the beauty here...no one is putting a gun to your head.

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That's odd, rickk

by nighthawk808 In reply to You can't argue with Linu ...

Here's the hardware that has passed through my desktop in the past two years. The OS at the time was either SuSE 9.3 or 10.0. This machine used to dual-boot Windows XP, but this is no longer the case.

These have stayed the same:
Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe mobo
AMD Athlon XP 3000+ (overclocked to 2.35GHz)
1GB Geil Golden Dragon PC3500 dual-channel DDR

These have changed:
Sound:
--Turtle Beach Santa Cruz
--SoundBlaster Audigy 2 Platinum Pro
--Onboard AC '97 chip (what I use now)

Video:
--nVidia GeForce4 MX-440
--ATI Radeon 9800Pro
--nVidia GeForce6200 (what I use now)

HD
--Western Digital WDC2500/WDC300
--Dual 80GB Hitachi SATA/150 (what I use now)

CD/DV
--Samsung CD-RW/DVD combo
--Sony DRU820 (What I use now)

Printer:
a networked HP DeskJet 930C and a Lexmark X3350

None of these has ever had a problem in Linux (except a less-than-smooth change from the Radeon 9800 to the GeForce6200). Here's the problems I had with them in Windows:

--Couldn't overclock processor when using Windows. Got random BSOD's. Worked fine as long I was in Linux.
--Audigy2 didn't handle 5.1 sound correctly.
--Radeon 9800 would reset itself rather frequently. Tried four or five driver releases; no change.
--Could not install Windows AT ALL when I got the SATA HDD's. It had no built-in SATA drivers (I can't blame Microsoft for this--the technology didn't exist when XP first came out), and pressing F6 to specify the included drivers didn't work. Windows refused to even acknowledge that they were drivers. This is why I took a different computer and made it my gaming box instead of dual-booting like I used to. SuSE didn't blink an eye when it saw my new SATA drives.
--The print quality of the DeskJet 930 was _much_ higher when printing pictures from Linux vs. Windows.
--The Samsung drive twice "forgot" that it had CD-RW capabilities. Windows would only consider it a CD-ROM when this happened. Uninstalling it completely and reinstalling it didn't fix the problem. Hours of searching and reading online only showed me that this is not an uncommon problem in Windows, and there is no good solution. Only a complete reinstallation of XP fixed it. By the time this happened a second time, I didn't care anymore whether it worked in Windows because SuSE's k3b had no problem burning anything I wanted.


I'm rather suspicious when you claim that your generic hardware doesn't work in Linux. Generic hardware is _more_ likely to work, assuming they are generic because they are one of those companies who licenses a chipset to make cheap hardware out of. Hardware support, especially for standard chipsets, is already very good and rapidly approaching outstanding in Linux. Usually it's those with bleeding-edge hardware who have problems, and those people are usually the technically-savvy ones who either like tinkering and getting it working themselves or they know to submit a report to their favorite distro so the Open Source delevopment method can do what it does best.


Post edited to correct some typos. I wish TR had a "Preview post" feature like the rest of the world.

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That's Funny and Typical

by rkuhn In reply to You can't argue with Linu ...

I say I had problems and you are suspicious.

Yet, you have problems and simply give greater detail and we're suppposed to all believe you but not me.

Typical Linux speak.

Why are you suspicious of me but I'm not supposed to be suspicious of you?

I know because you support Linux and my problems don't fit your nice little view of the world.

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Apotheon vs Nighthawk

by rkuhn In reply to You can't argue with Linu ...

While I disagree with some of what you are saying Apotheon, I do appreciate your honesty. That post did add something to this discussion.

Nighthawk, on the other hand, rants on and on at times about nothing and typically adds nothing to these discussions.

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Rikk

by jmgarvin In reply to You can't argue with Linu ...

Ok, the skinny is this:

You make up problems about Linux.

Apo and Night state common issues and work arounds that are available along with basic troubleshooting steps.

Linux is NOT hard to install, just check the blogs section. The Hot Button had a Linux vs Windows shoot out with installs. Typically a Linux install is click and forget...while with Windows (and two reboots later), you have nanny it and then you have the installation.

Wireless DOES work in Linux, it just takes a little doing because VENDORS don't make drivers for most wifi cards.

SATA does work, NVidia does work, ATI does work, 3d acceleration does work, most NICs work, USB PnP does work, etc...So what doesn't work Rikk...Without the FUD...Tell me please.

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Stupid question...

by noyoki In reply to You can't argue with Linu ...

What's a "FUD"?

*feels like a newb*

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Whatever

by rkuhn In reply to You can't argue with Linu ...

I will go home, list my components, tell you again what I experienced, and you jmgarvin will once again not believe me.

What's the point?

That was the whole point of this discussion. You just can't let it go. You are a Linux zealot.

I have my OS of choice and you have yours. I'm not trying to convert or prove anything...you are.

But more to your points: (these are my opinion)

"Linux is NOT hard to install" - I have installed probably 5-6 different distros now and while 99% of the time everything goes OK, it's that 1% that kills me.

"Wireless DOES work in Linux, it just takes a little doing because VENDORS don't make drivers for most wifi cards." - Like I care. My OS of choice does support virtually any and all wireless cards. I don't care what mnaufacturers are doing or are not doing...I just want the thing to work.

"SATA does work, NVidia does work, ATI does work, 3d acceleration does work, most NICs work, USB PnP does work, etc...So what doesn't work Rikk" - All of the above work in Windows as well. I have a NVidia card at home with no problems. I have a ATI card at home with no problems. I told you what wasn't working for me in Linux but you have selective memory.

It was the printer, a Lexmark something, and my wireless NIC, a D-Link something.

I will go home tonight and get the specific model numbers for you, however, I know that won't do me any good because you are God and have an excuse for everything.

It'll either be the cheap equipment, the lack of a manufacturer driver, not the most recent distro, my lack of something (even though I've been in IT for 6+ years now)...you always have an excuse.

Those two things, the wireless NIC and the printer work fine for me in Windows yet aren't even seen at all in Linux.

It's actually unbelievable that Linux continues to improve everyday (which it does) with people like you who don't recognize issues and try to resolve them. You ignore facts that you don't agree with.

"It depends what is is" should be your motto.

"You make up problems about Linux" - So, apotheon and nighthawk's problems are real and I'm are imaginary.

Dude, your head is so far up your backend, I'm surprised you can even drink the free beer as in Linux.

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rickk, if by "rant" you mean

by nighthawk808 In reply to You can't argue with Linu ...

ripping your argument to shreds and stomping on the pieces, I guess I'm guilty as charged.

I've always found it quite pleasing when a discussion reaches a point where the other side simply calls me a zealot and/or attacks my posting style and doesn't present anything substantive. It basically means they've run out of things for me to beat down.

What makes this time somewhat ironic is that I predicted you would say something like that in the post you have to reply to because of TR's "max level" limitation. "Fanatic" and "zealot" are pretty synonymous.

Well, it was fun while it lasted. It's init 0 time for me.

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FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, and doubt

by jmgarvin In reply to You can't argue with Linu ...
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actually, rickk . . .

by apotheon In reply to You can't argue with Linu ...

1. I disagree with your assessment of what nighthawk808 said, and how he typically behaves. He was a bit harsher than me this time, and he didn't "balance" his post by discussing why you might have had problems with Linux hardware support the way I did. He brought up a laundry list of Windows issues. He stated that he was suspicious of you, for which I can hardly fault him considering that you have a tendency to sow FUD and troll for flames. You even jumped into the midst of an amicable mutual ribbing that some Linux users were giving each other just to stir up strife. I decided to be nice: nighthawk808 didn't. That doesn't make him wrong.

2. It's difficult for people like jmgarvin (and me) to take what you say at face value. You have repeatedly contradicted yourself in the midst of trying to contradict anyone that says anything that favorably compares Linux to Windows, and you stir up flamewar threads like this one while claiming to just want everyone to get along. While I am trying to respond to your specific complaints about hardware support as though your entire history of disinformation doesn't exist, jmgarvin is responding to what he knows of your history here. His approach may not have been as nice as mine, but it was no less valid.

3. The word "zealot" as applied to a Linux vs. Windows debate should have the same status as the words "Hitler" and "Nazi" in other debates. If you want to be seen as anything other than a "zealot" yourself, you should probably stop using that term. Of course, I don't think you really care: you're more interested in trolling for flames than in having a reasoned discussion. I think you're deliberately provoking people with the word "zealot". I've been wrong once or twice before, though it's rare -- so I suppose I might be wrong again. I don't think so, though. You seem to enjoy this strife too much.

4. With extensive experience of both Linux and Windows, I have seen Linux installs go from more difficult than Windows about three or four years ago to notably easier than Windows now. There might be a 1% problem rate, but if so, the 6% problem rate of Windows installs makes that look good.

5. Actually, Windows doesn't support all those wireless cards. The wireless cards support Windows. How many of those can you install and use without the vendor's drivers? 40%? 50%? Something like that is my experience. Probably only about 15% of wireless cards are supported by Linux without vendor drivers, but 90% of wireless cards are supported by Linux when you use the vendor's drivers and ndiswrapper, as compared with about 98% of cards being supported by Windows when you use the vendor's drivers. Yes, Windows is slightly ahead, but not to the degree you seem to be suggesting. It's also worth noting that those 15% of wireless cards that are supported in Linux without vendor drivers tend to be better supported than any card, under any circumstances, in Windows. This is because that native support in Linux is provided by open source drivers that incorporate far more functionality than you can get with the vendor drivers for Windows. While all this extra functionality is lost on most users, it's certainly a boon to those of us who use wireless adapters to survey wireless security at clients' network sites. (note: those percentages are estimates based on my own experience and analyses of wireless support statistics gleaned from a number of online resources)

6. Windows doesn't support ATI or nVidia nearly as well as Linux. Add vendor drivers, and suddenly the Windows and Linux support for them becomes about even, but natively, out of the box, Windows support for those cards is sketchy at best, while Linux support under those same conditions is rock-solid even if it's not quite up to the standards of the vendor drivers. As for SATA, it's true that Windows supports SATA drives pretty well now, but there was a time (shortly after the release of SP2 for Windows XP) that the SATA drivers would often be classified as "uncertified" and thus rejected outright by the OS, effectively turning the drive into a paperweight as far as the computer was concerned. It took months for Windows to get caught up on SATA support again. The cost and aggravation incurred was impressive. As for NICs, aside from wireless, there is no OS family of which I'm aware that has better general network adapter support than Linux, Windows included. In fact, Linux has far better native NIC support than Windows. Ethernet NIC support is one of the pretty much indisputable wins of Linux. Windows, on the other hand -- well, it's a crap shoot. NICs are supported more than half the time without vendor drivers, and they work almost all the time with vendor drivers, but pulling a random NIC out of a box in the closet, with no vendor drivers, and slotting it into your Windows machine runs a substantial risk of being pretty soundly b0rked.

Do yourself a favor: when you get home and find that D-Link NIC, check on the ndiswrapper wiki for the list of supported cards, and see if your card's chipset is supported. If it is, you can bow out gracefully, and just say "Well, it would be nice if it was easier to get it working than by using ndiswrapper." Try to avoid claiming it doesn't work at all without being absolutely certain.

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Apotheon

by rkuhn In reply to You can't argue with Linu ...

That is exactly what I'm talking about.

While I disagree with many of your points, especially 1-4 :) 5 and 6 were more debate like.

Some on here just can't seem to make points without attacking someone.

You and I have had numerous run ins but that post was what my title "Why the Constant Arguing" was all about.

We can all debate, agree, or disagree, but why the constant arguing?

You may have actually sent me down the road of fixing my wireless card issue. Thanks! We need more of that on TR.

But you have to admit, whether you agree with me or other TR members or not, the constant bickering on TR is starting to get annoying.

I've been on TR now for a little over 4 years and maybe it's my imagination but I don't think it's been this bad before.

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