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Will Iraq ever achieve stability ...

By jardinier ·
without the permanent presence of a large number of occupying troops, presumably mostly from the US?

Please note. As promised earlier, I will not make any adverse comments on the leaders of any nations until such time as they make some new move or policy which invites comment.

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But even worse

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to Not if the US stays for t ...

If that was to happen every tin pot fool would see America as an "Easy Target" who where unable to even keep one little country {Iraq} under control.

I personally believe that we are seeing the beginning of the uniting of a lot of the Radical Muslims into a more solid fighting force and if Arafat dies there will be no one to wield power over them to keep the killing to a minimum.


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Arafat didn't stabilize much

by DelbertPGH In reply to But even worse

I wouldn't credit Arafat with being a force for stability or moderation. His leadership is corrupt and incompetent, and can only endure by keeping Palestinians whooped up about fighting Israel. If they actually had time to think seriously about all the lies, bribes, and murder it takes to keep the PLO in power, they would have gotten rid of him. A lot of Palestinians are bitter about their lousy government, but cannot get a forum going in the middle of a war. Arafat doesn't know how to lead anything but a war, and the way his party is constructed, he would collapse if the state of war ended.

I think it will be very, very bad if we leave Iraq without attaining any worthwhile goals, other than over throwing its government. It's an extremely hard place to win in. I wish GWB had picked an easier stage for his showcase-of-democracy project.

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To be fair

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to Arafat didn't stabilize m ...

Arafat always was and always will be a Terrorist. His entire organization the PLO is a Terror Organization remember the Achilles Laura "or however it was spelled"?

But having said that he is now considered a Moderate? compared to the splinter groups in his organization which are now sick and tired of waiting for their promised victory. While I do agree that a lot of the "Moderate" Palestine's don't like him the actions of that area are making this number smaller every day. Now if he dies without naming a preferred leader which is most likely because he never allowed anyone enough power within the PLO as they would have become a threat to him I can see that group splintering into thousands of individual core groups each trying to outdo the other in horrendous attacks upon their perceived enemy, namely the Jewish State and their Supporters.

How it ever came about that a known Terrorists was accepted as a Political leader is quite beyond me and the fact that he was elevated to his current position mainly by the Media only shows that he had at least the right idea in getting his people to follow him. Also the fact that he survived so many assignation attempts might have helped but even then I seriously wonder if they where staged as Mosard tends to work fairly effectively and if they really wanted him dead I can not see him living so long.


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Also, Remember Israel illegally grabbed their land.

by admin In reply to To be fair

What would you do if your people were allowed to live on land that was located on Israels weakest neighbor, and then The State of Israel came in and took it by force? They are a desperate people, and although Arafat should not have become a political leader, if the US would have not turned a blind eye to, or even supported the State of Israels aggression towards its neighbors there would have never been any real support for Arafat.

The nation of Israel was blessed by the west in setting up their original borders and they spit on this by becoming hostile and aggressive towards their neighbors. Now it has been so long that it's a huge mess. Still, Israel should be forced to move back to the original borders by our country- The United States of America. After they have returned to their borders, then we should help keep those borders safe from both sides fairly. This would go farther than anything else possible to bring peace to that region and the world today. It is the right thing to do.

This is not a justification- Terrorism is wrong. To fight it in any realistic sense though, you must first actually understand how it came to be a choice for anyone in a situation. To truly fight terrorism in this situation the legal borders must be restored.

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If you think Israel will ever consider giving up

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to Also, Remember Israel ill ...

The Golan Heights you are in GA GA land as it is by far to strategically important to both sides.

As far as the West bank goes I agree that Israel should be forced to pull back to the pre 6 day war borders but even that wall that they are building to place a uncrossable line between both sides is always in Israels best interests at the cost of Palestine.


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That is why they should be forced back.

by admin In reply to If you think Israel will ...

You do have a point about the Golan Heights. Israel could propose an exchange on the West Bank, or if it was removed by force then perhaps a third party peace-keeping force should maintain the Golan Heights.

At any rate, the U.S. should intervene there if we want to militarily attempt peace in the Middle East.

Than again, perhaps peace is not what we are really trying to effect.

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Actually the Israel Jordon Border

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to If you think Israel will ...

Seems like the most peaceful place in the entire area. They only shoot at each other occasional just to let the other side know that they are still there.
But now that it is official that Arafat is dead I can not help but wonder what is going to happen now with the West Bank and other areas that should be Palestine.


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Consider this...

by Packet Spoofer In reply to Also, Remember Israel ill ...

I am no expert on this subject, but from what I have seen, Isreal is constantly being told to give land in exchange for peace....if you just give them what they want...
Why is it that most of Isreals neighbors want to extinguish them from existence????...The whole world body (UN) unanimously recognized Isreal as a soveriegn nation....why would they do this to people that illegally grabbed land...

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by Packet Spoofer In reply to Will Iraq ever achieve st ...

Not if almost half of our country refuses to unite behind the president to stomp out terrorism....

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If it only was possible...Terrorism cannot be stomped out

by admin In reply to

Terrorism cannot be stomped out. It is like a great fire that stomping only spreads and fans. The fanned flames are called martyrs and the spread is called revolt.

The way to control a fire like this is to cut off it's fuel, not by stomping in it.

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