A letter from Willie

It would only make good sense that you can't export something that your own standards show is unsafe.

And I will even provide an example that makes Canada look bad. Canada does not allow asbestos to be used in new buildings. There may be some scientific dispute by the scientists paid for by the asbestos industry, but on the whole scientists have linked asbestos with cancer.

Yet Canada continues to mine and export asbestos, and the only countries that import it are the ones who have very lax standards and/or enforcement. In Canada its a political issue - if they shut down the mines and the processors, one small region will lose thousands of jobs. But morally, I have a hard supporting shipping something I wouldnt have in my house to some third world country, who doesn't know or doesn't care about the risks to their citizens.

James

...in my diet. But isn't this just a cultural or personal preference to eat or not eat horse meat?

I agree, it was not Willie's MAIN point. Does that make it any less valid? I don't think so. Also, I agree with all of his points. Which is why I posted the letter. Hopefully there are others out there who would advocate this cause for any of these reasons. Not trying to play a semantics game with his words, just spreading the news of a cause I thought worthy of spreading. If you've no problem with the issue then you have the right to your opinions and or actions. No biggie ...

Thank you Tig, very well spoken.

I am also an avid hunter, have been all of my life. Never for sport, always for food. My Grandfather was a full blooded Cherokee, my Dad half. My brothers and I were raised to respect nature in the ways of the Native Americans. So, to me anyway, this is not a PETA issue. I am glad you read it for what it is and for responding to the mocking response in such an eloquent manner. Could not have said it better!

is not the same as going to Mrcrapdonalds and ordering a bunny burger, or finding bunny or lamb in the average store.

Venison? Only in certain meat markets, and only certain times of the year. Can't go to Meijers and get venison.

There is a big deal now for our election next week on if morning doves should be hunted or not. Been hearing ads for both sides and they are both stupid. The anti is two "oh, the poor birdies" blah blah blah. The pro is about the FACT that this is an admitted first step by the anti's to ban ALL hunting because it is "crual".

I will be voting yes, and then have a cook out!

PETA can .......

Doesn't this round of discussion remind you of an earlier discussion that the three of us had on hunting :-) ?

Is there an open season on Congresscritters???

Bag limit?

Special stamp???

I'm kidding, of course. But it seems that the people with the power to do something should have a CLEAR understanding of what is at stake...

I saw that we cross posted. I am glad that you understood.

Now THAT's funny!

Only one problem, that would be hunting for sport, not food! Seeing as how most of 'em are full of sh!t that's probably what they'd taste like. So, no hunting them, let's just ride 'em like we oughta be ... know what I mean?

Pity about the sport vs food issue though.

I'm looking at the proposed crop for my state. If the attack ads don't make you sick, the complete dearth of understanding about the issues that voters here care about will.

Times like this that I wonder if I shouldn't just spend an extra day or two in the stand. Can't do it, of course.

Makes you wonder sometimes...

I hate to seem insensitive, but they used to eat a lot of horse in France, and those people know something about eatin'.

Anybody ever had a bit of horse?

get out and VOTE.

Not based on an "R" or a "D" or whatever flavor you have bought into, but based on what you believe that candidate stands for after all the hype has died down.

I would bet I have voted for more "d's" than most of the liberals on this board have voted for "r's".

Intellectual honesty is so rare, and blind party faith is just stupid.

You're clearly one of the minority of fathers that spend a great deal of time with their kids and that is absolutely fantastic. As a new father of an 8-mth old boy-beast I hope to be able to do the same and constantly worry about balancing the demands of the job/career/crapolla with the family.

Just not sure that hunting with a gun does the trick. Doesn't seem really like there is a playing field for the animal, more likely a roulette wheel for the one that walks in a particular spot first.

With practise (yes I know, lots and lots of practise) shooting a deer isn't that much more than shooting fish in a barrel. See it, sight it, fire it. Great thing is that you eat it - that point isn't lost on me.

But I am assuming about the gun.

Perhaps you use bow and arrow which would be an incredible skill and would (perhaps in my ignorance) seem to level out the field a bit.

Or even the long-knife where there is actually a significant chance of your own injury if you get it wrong. If you want to get back to those roots, this would be about as close as you could get short of a club. But obviously this isn't one to share with the kids.

Even in fishing the slimey little buggers have a good fighting chance of taking the bait. But I'd expect that you already include that with the kids which is great.

PS have to declare my interest as a re-aimed ex-shooter

Let me try and explain this one.

As I said, my Grandfather was a full blooded Cherokee. Raised on a reservation and when the time came he fought for this country (even though Native Americans have gotten such a raw deal since the first "outsiders" started claiming their land as their own) and was amongst the first American forces to step foot in Berlin at the end of WWII. He raised my Father and in turn my Father raised myself and my brothers in the ways of the Native Americans. From surviving in the wilderness to making tools for survival and of course hunting/fishing/foraging for sustenance.

Speaking for myself, being out in the wilderness for whatever reason always brings a feeling of my ancestral spirituality. When I hunt, I do it the way I was taught. I do not use feeders or sit in a stand (not that there is anything wrong with that), I use the tracking/stalking method I was taught at a very young age. I use my senses, knowledge and learned skills to "read" the signs of where and how the animals are moving about, rutting, feeding, etc. There has been many times and many reasons why I could have taken shots but did not. A Doe with her fawn, a young buck, etc. The hunt itself is more important to me than actually "bagging" an animal. Just the fact I was able to track the animal and get close enough without detection to take the animal, gives me a sense of pride and tradition. A very spiritual feeling.

BTW, myself and my brothers were first taught and only allowed to hunt with bows (no compounds, long bows or recurves) before we were ever taught to use a gun. Even with my upper limb disability, I had to learn how to use and hunt with a long bow (left handed) accurately and successfully before I was allowed to use a gun. I could take down the smallest eatable animals, squirrels and rabbits at first, then wild hogs and deer. My brother was especially good with a bow I was with him on a hunt when he took a rabbit down while on the run, at full speed, with a flu flu arrow. We were also taught (expected, "you kill it you clean it") not only how to dress the animals but how to tan the hides and even make useful items out of them. I made my first deer hide knife sheath when I was 10 years old.

Anyway, I don't expect most or even some of you to feel the same "spiritual" nature of these things. However, I would hope you could at least see how it could be for some.

Is an invitation to the bbq too much to ask?

I'll bring the beer (and proper beer too).

First of all, my parents divorced when I was four, and only saw him on sundays, and then he passed from cancer when I was 17. He taught me to shoot both a bow and a handgun safely, but we never hunted anything more dangerous than a tin can.

I have always loved being in the woods, and when I found a friend of mine was into hunting, I started tagging along. I have gone every year for the last 20 years, but have yet to fire on a deer or a dear.

On public land, the hard thing is SEEING the deer. The second hardest thing is to have a clear shot at a suitable target. I see plenty of deer, but when they are in a group and you shoot open sites, I will NOT try to shoot over the shoulder of a doe to get the buck that is legal. I let them go. End of the day, I walked out of the woods unharmed, it was a great day hunting.

This year, I was able to get bows for my boys (compound). Money is tight while still paying Mr. Lawyerman off for the good work he did on my divorce, but we managed. Got a nice used youth bow for Thing Two, but Thing One is left eye dominate so he has to shoot left handed. Hard to find a used lefthanded youth bow, but we got one on clearance. I use a simple recurve and love it.

We go in the woods, safety is always first priority, and messing around stops completely when guns or bows come out. Many here might find it hard to imagine me being serious for any lenght of time, but in this case, big time.

It is about being together.
It is about being in the woods.
It is about being.

If at the end of the day there is game that we will be able to take back and eat, cool. But the kill is not what gets me out there.

I don't care that people say I am not a "real hunter" because I haven't gotten anything yet, but that is another nice thing that I don't care what other people say or think. Not out to impress anyone.

Do I see hunting as crual? Of course not. did you know the way they used to kill the cattle in the slaughter houses was to smash their heads in with a sledge hammer? You can pretend to be above all of it as you enjoy your happy meal, but you just had someone else do your killing for you, of an animal that has never known a free day in their lives.

Also, the game you take does not have the steroids and hormones that are in the rest of our food supply. It is completely logical and civilized to hunt in a humain way.

"Hunt WITH your kids, not FOR them".

If you spend the time with your kids, they are much less likely to get into trouble as they grow up.

canIberichnow, you missed my divorce discussion here on TR, but there is nothing more important in my life than my boys. I am lucky to have custody now, and am working to make it offical. (twin boys).

Best of luck with your boy. Never let the daily daily distract you from what is most important. I have always been close to my boys, and at the age of 14 they don't hesitate to give me a hug hello or goodbye in front of their friends. Life is good.

albeit the method isn't my choice I unreservedly take back any implied criticism, wish you well, and still look forward to the bbq.

Civilizations have held varying spiritual traditions. Animal sacrifices to appease gods was not a rare event. Many have weaned away from that tradition. But it still continues in almost all parts of the world. To me hunting the tradition way or the modern way is secondary, it looks like the sense of pride or thrill exists in hunting. In this day, should we consider killing to be a component of spirituality? My view is it should not.

Being in the woods, close to the nature and appreciating it is fine. If one were to top it off by including friends and family for having a nice time, it is more nice. But if it is going to culminate in killing, then I would have to think.

I have read about slaughter houses, and to me the fact of farming animals to just kill is cruel in itself. One can look at eating meat itself as a necessity because of habit. So if one was just going to eat meat, then so be it. But to attach varying degrees of spirituality, pride, family time, close to nature time, hygiene, testing prowess etc. is some kind of rationalization. Say if I was to accept slapping or spanking as a punishment for children to discipline them. What would you think of me in a situation where say my spouse or sibling was going to give a slap (or spanking) or two to a child as part of disciplining; and I offer to do the slapping ?

If we were to look at this if this was a necessity, then I would say hunting is not a necessity. You might call me a hypocrite or a person with contradictions when you know that I condone the practice of testing drugs on animals before humans use them. I do not wish to see the end of human race and neither am I suicidal. If there are ways to test new drugs, without the use of animals, then I am all for it. We should try to discover such ways. But in the absence of such ways, I would not mind testing on animals. This becomes a necessity for the human race. Similarly eating meat itself could be a necessity for many. But if I was walking in on a trail, and I notice that I am just going to step on an earthworm; would I step on it knowing well that I have an option not to do so and that my not stepping on it is not going to affect other humans? This is different from driving at 60miles on the highway and wondering to hit the duck/goose that is just crossing the road. Obviously hitting it is more prudent than endangering other motorists on the road. Note: I am not talking about deer or moose. The situation is different. TR has a separate thread on that subject alone.

Necessity? Avoidable? Would be two questions that I would ask.

MOST humans that eat meat, have no problem scarfing down a burger.

When they see what it takes to MAKE that burger, it is all of a sudden "cruel".

It is part of nature, and in the wild these same animals die a much worse death than when taken by men.

If I am going to eat meat, it is no more cruel to get my own than it is to have someone else do it for me.

I do not kill anything but flies and such without a reason. I would not go into the woods and kill an animal that I was not going to take home and cook with the family.

If you are a PURE vegetarian, I can understand your position on this. If your not, then yes, it is very hypocritical to say it is acceptable to slaughterhouse kill for food but not to get your own because of a misplaced sense of something being cruel or not.

Will just have to walk our separate ways on this. I already have the cabin reserved for next week, and hope to have a safe hunt with my boys. Life is good. Real good.

As JD suggests, if you are a vegetarian, I can see your point.

In both farming and hunting, there are responsible people and irresponsible ones.

There can be cruel farming practises (some veal/poultry operations are vile), as well as hunters who don't kill on the first shot and cause the animal to suffer.

On the whole, I'd suggest that a wild animal may be "free" but without human intervention is still subject to a stressful life evading predators. In southern Ontario we have an overpopulation of deer, since we killed off some of the natural predators - wolves primarily. I'd submit to you that a death from a bullet is kinder than starving to death.

I too don't believe in hunting unless its for food. I do have relatives who hunt wolves who prey on livestock (different part of Ontario). I wouldn't even kill a rattlesnake in Ontario unless I had to protect someone.

James

... a vegetarian. Not a vegan though. Dairy products is part of my diet. Though I do love the omelets, do not eat them often. Yes that would make me an octolavo-vegetarian.

You are right I do not see your point(s). Guess I could say the same thing of you (especially the slapping analogy :-) ).

We can walk our separate ways, but our paths will criss-cross once in a while, where we are bound to take up this subject once again.

The Spirits and ways of my ancestors lives on through the blood that courses through my veins and that of my brothers, cousins, son, nephews and nieces. Their ways were not to kill to sacrifice for the Gods. Rather a gift from, for the survival of their families/people. To equate the two is a moot point. As well as, equating "animal testing" to hunting ... apples and oranges. Also, which one sounds more "cruel" to you?

Had you lived in the not to long gone past and your village or family was hungry, would you not praise be when the buffalo/deer/elk/moose/etc. you just killed was going to keep them from perishing from starvation? If the times we live in now (or the not so far off future) were to change do to some unforeseen catastrophic event, would you be prepared to hunt for the survival of you and yours? Then, would you not praise for the beast's meat that fills your bellies, for the hides that keeps you warm and dry, for the bones that are fashioned for tools of survival? This "modern" world that we live "In this day" has made it so you can go to a market and "pay for" meat processed/farmed/killed for your convenience. Is this out of "habit" that humans are carnivorous creatures? Or, is it because that is the way we have been since the dawn of time? Even if one "chooses" to be a vegetarian, are they not also "killing" what Nature has given life to?

Spirituality is all around us my friend. It's on the ground upon which we walk, it is the air we breath, the water we drink, the way we live our lives, the family/people we love, and countless other ways ... whether or not, or how, you choose to acknowledge it is yours to choose. As it is mine to choose for my own. To keep the traditions of my ancestry alive and to pass them down is not only a VERY "spiritual" part of my life, it is also my obligation to those who came before me. To forget our past is to kill our future ...

BTW: If the child needs a spanking, by all means, spank the child. Be it your own, or someone in your families. The children in my family KNOW that grandparents, aunts and uncles has "spanking rights". Just knowing that, has meant NEVER having to do it. R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

1. Necessity? Yes
2. Avoidable? No

Have a nice day!

PSer:
I said the practice of animal sacrifices existed among different civilizations. I could not have said anything specific to your tradition, because I do not know. So if my posts implied anything specific to your family or in any way offended you then I unconditionally apologize, as my intention was not to pin-point anything in your tradition.

Perishing from starvation is bad and to avoid it if one has to kill then so be it. It becomes a necessity in this case. Yes if circumstances changed, and we became a hunting-gatherer societies, then if survivial depended on hunting; then I would do it. It is a necessity. But the circumstances now do not necessiate me to use the bones as tools. I mentioned the "animal testing" to contrast "hunting" because of our societies' dependence on modern medicines. In some cases the research and production involves animal testing. I wanted to bring attention to the necessity factor.

I do not know if humans' ancestors were herbivores or carnivores (or omniovres). You could interchange 'tradition' with the word of 'habit' in some cases. Children of meat eaters usually eat meat, and children of vegetarians usually do not. Ofcourse people do step out of their traditional boundaries.

I did suspect the subject might touch upon vegetarianism and killing of plants. My point is not about "killing" per se. My argument revolves around deriving pride, thrill, spiritual bliss etc in the act of killing. Ofcourse I would choose to not eat meat as long as possible, because I can survive by avoiding eating meat.

I understand spirituality as much as you do, and do treasure handing over values and beliefs down the chain. But if it means that I have to pass down something that I do not consider worthwhile, then I would not do so. I respect my ancestors and would not forgot the past, but I am not obligated to do as they did in each and every case. That is why I placed the example of animal sacrifice and its value in modern times.

Yes, even in my family circles elders chastise children. The uncles and aunts did as much disciplining as the parents themselves. Even in such a situation, I would not chastise other's children, just because they do.

Necessity? No.
Avoidable? Yes.

Okay, points made, sides taken. Pros, Cons, yours, mine, others ... it's all good.

I really do understand what you are saying ... some of my best friends are vegetarians! HA!! :) Really, they are.

No need for apologies, although we disagree on some points I personally, respect your words and your convictions. The heart, if you will, of this "post" speaks of what you are speaking of (although, Horses ARE in a league of their own). As many ways as we are not a like ... in many we are. So, thank you for reading the post and sharing your words in this "off-off-topic" discussion. Although, we will take different paths on THIS particular aspect of THIS topic, I hope we can all take a little something away from the original message from Willie ...

See ya next "discussion"

As always, Have a nice day!

1. Necessity? Opinion's Vary
2. Avoidable? Opinion's Vary

Truce for now :-) Victories, defeats or truces are not permanent :-)

I still have my "war paint" handy! ;)

People that make the choice to be vegitarians are living an "Accepable Alternative live style" :D

As soon as that person tries to push their ways on anyone else though, there will be conflict.

Someones reasoning for being "this way" varies. Some do it because they have been led to believe that it isn't healthy to eat meat.

Others get emotional and equate feelings onto the animals, saying that eating meat is "cruel".

There are also the different degrees of this, where fish are not cute, so it is alright to kill them. Eggs, (baby chickens) are also justified away as not being a chicken yet.

I also like to look to see if vegitarians wear leather shoes or have a nice leather belt.

I personally don't understand how someone can resist a medium rare T-bone steak, or a chicken stirfry. Oh well, as long as they don't come between me and my plate, there won't be any trouble....... ;\

To each their own. Peace.

Willie and other "horse people" love to go on and on about how brilliant horses are. I don't see it. One of the few times I ever rode a horse, it saw an aluminum gate and took off in a full run towards it. Luckily I was able to stop him. Two words, "Christopher Reeve."
Bottom line: Horses are no different than cattle. If you are against unproductive horses being slaughtered, no ribeye for you. Evenhandedness!