IT Employment

Ask something
Discussion Locked

A Time And Place For Deception?

0 helpful
24 replies

by firstpeter 2 views

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

I've been a TR member for many years, but really only recently became active on the discussion boards (vs. Q&A). And while I enjoy, thoroughly, the discussions and hearing other people's points of view on (almost) every thread, there is one theme I'm seeing throughout a number of different posts in a number of different areas and I thought I'd get your take on it.

As you can tell by the topic, that theme is deception. It may be simply a "white lie"; it may be intentional misdirection or even flat out "bull", but either way I wanted to get you, the venerable members of TR, to weigh in on this question:

"When, if ever, is it okay to not be honest when dealing with a:
-Client
-Employee
-Employer
-Partner

Is there a time when you would treat one differently than another?

I'm not really looking for specific instances (e.g., "It was okay to tell a white lie to the boss the day Joe brought in the fifth of vodka") but more "conceptual" guidelines that you follow.

I look forward to your thoughts!

24 replies

by gene.fellner

It is considered proper to lie to people who have authority over you. We really are a people with democracy in our hearts. Relationships between unequals bring out the worst in us.

Cops, teachers, parents, bosses, the IRS, we think it's perfectly OK to use deceit to try to manipulate their behavior because they have power over us that we can't challenge in any other way. We even tend to feel that way about large corporations. Intuitively we understand that Adam Smith's free market was intended to be populated by players of more or less equal power, not individuals going up against corporations with sales figures equal to the GDP of Bangla Desh.

Where it's not proper to use deceipt for purposes of manipulation is among equals. Your friends, your co-workers, your partners, your suppliers and customers in the small business arena, your spouse and other loved ones. You're expected to be able to build honest relationships with them. If you find yourself lying to them you have to stop and figure out why. Do they have disproportionate power over you so you have to manipulate them the way you did your parents? If so, what's wrong with the relationship?

So the short answer to your question, limited to a business context is: Boss yes, agents of the government yes, agents of megacorporations possibly yes. Employees probably yes if you're sure they agree with this paradigm and are lying to you. Partners no, clients no unless you can invoke the megacorporation rule.

I'm not suggesting any of this is either Right or Wrong. It just Is.

by firstpeter

Interesting response - I see a lot of that in what I'm reading on posts and what I've experienced the last 15 years in the business world.

A lot of this stems from an absolute dislike of having to deal with contracts that cover every little T&C. Where are the good old days when a handshake was sufficient? I'm actually blessed in this respect - my clients are primarily of the handshake variety, where a quick e-mail outlining what I am going to do and an e-mail or voicemail back saying "go for it" are sufficient to get everything done. But you can't do that if there's any level of distrust present, and lying breeds distrust.

That being said, I think you nailed culture on the head in your response - it really reflected what I'm used to seeing. But it breeds the real million dollar questions:

1. Why is it that we treat our bosses/government/big corporations/employees differently than we do our partners/clients/loved ones?

2. If we treated everyone the same (preferably in a trusting relationship) would that REALLY solve anything?

3. And finally, if the answer is that it would solve significant problems (like lawsuits, etc.) what's the real root cause of why we're not getting there?

Obviously it's purely philosophical, but heck - what's better than philosophical questions on a nice June week? Aside from sipping a nice J&C on a hammock on the porch under a sunny sky and light breeze watching the waves roll up the beach, of course.
:)

I'm really interested - this question has plagued me quite a bit. I'm sure there are some folks in the psych* industry that would have a heyday with this, but I'm really after the folks who do the real day-to-day work, not some interpretation of why this all stems from a childhood experience when I put my pants on backwards.

by dmambo

that we use deception at times as a way of exacting revenge of some sort when we have no other means to do so?? With no (or miniscule) authority over how Uncle Sam conducts business, we cheat on our taxes. When our employers require us to work OT on a project, we call in sick the next week.

I never considered it this way, but I will now to see if this theory holds up.

by zen37

...cause me trouble.

I was raised in a very strict environment where i was told that you do not lie, ever. So i get very angry when someone lies to me or takes advantage of the fact that i don't lie myself.

I believe that honesty is the best policy, but almost no one i know believes in that too.

I get in trouble at work when decisions are made for political or power reasons and there is no logic to it. I tend to get angry when that happens and i unfortunalty cannot hide my discontent.

I strongly believe that the world would be a better place if you could actually trust people to do what they say and say what they do. If you know you are doing something dishonest, then be ready to face the concequences.

That's the way i choose to live my life. It's not easy, but i sleep very well at night, thank you. I have no fear of apologizing for mistakes made. I just wish i knew more people who felt the same way.

by dmambo

If I'm being the person that I really want to be, then I have to answer that it's really never OK to lie. If you respect your own sense of integrity you'll probably feel that a lie hurts you more than anyone else.

That being said, I personally live in a f***k*d up place I like to call the "real world". I'm sure you've heard of it. Here, I find myself telling the occasional little white lie. I hate doing it and I recognize that I'm not smart enough to risk letting the whoppers out with any regularity. Any sharp cookie like Maxwell Edison or Absolutely or my wife would be able to poke through my veil of deceit in minutes.

To answer you question, IMHO if a lie will not hurt or might even prevent injury to others (the "no, that doesn't make your ass look fat" variety) then maybe it's OK. If the consequences of getting caught in the lie will damage your reputation in any way, stay away from it. If you have even the smallest shread of love or respect for the other party, honesty really is the best policy. If you are setting an example of how to operate a business, be a faithful spouse, or raise a child, you want to be thought of as being someone to emulate.

It's such a tough question because it forces us to look deep inside ourselves. In the future, can't we just stick to discussions how our bosses drive us crazy? :)

by firstpeter

I think I was feeling a little more philosophical when I posted this than I normally do. Usually I'm more on the hands-on side, but I saw so many "you should just give people an answer they want to hear" and "BS is okay if..." answers to other questions I just couldn't resist.

I was hoping this would generate a little more feedback - perhaps it's too philosophical for a week like this. I'll just have to wait until the "my pointy-haired boss did this..." discussions hit a lull.
:)

by dmambo

I saw this thread and expected it to generate a couple of thousand posts. TR should pick it up as a Featured Discussion. They often don't last long enough in the New category to reach critical mass.

by jmgarvin

Some of us have actually done deception for a living...If you have every be the information security guru, you know what I'm talking about.

Is deception always bad? No. That honey pot is deceptful, but it is performing its purpose for good. Is lying to your users to social engineer them bad? No, it has to be done to ensure proper training. I quietly breaking into employee x's box to test system security wrong? Again...no, but employee x will probably never know...

Now, when it comes to being less than hostest with:
- Client - They need your to be honest, but sometimes it just isn't possible to explain all the ins and outs of what is going on, so a simple lie of omission is used. On that note, is it really a lie if you say nothing at all?
- Employee - Again, similar situation to a client. However, you should be very up front with your employees and what is happening to them or to the company. If they are going to be laid off in the next week, you NEED to tell them.
- Employer - This enters a gray area. If you were perfectly honest with your employeer, you'd be fired. Some stuff needs to be sugar coated or completely changed in the interest of self preservation (not that all corporations are like this, but some are)
- Partner - 100% honest. The good, the bad, and the ugly need to come out...I'm not talking about, "honey, I bought and I "forgot" to ask you about it." We are talking about REAL stuff that comes up. I'm a guy, so I'm pretty tight lipped about everything, but I do try to explain what I can...

Now my question:
"Where is the line drawn from a white lie to a full blown lie?"

by dmambo

First, I prefer the term "whopper" to "full-blown lie". Personal preferance.

I would say that for many, the distinction is in preventing injury to the party being lied to or to a third party. As a kid, I tried not to rat out on my friends, even if it meant that I'd take the brunt of the punishment for a transgression. By saying, for example, that I got the beer from some dude I paid off outside the package store rather than from my older brother, I spared him the wrath of the old man. A lie? Sure. On a par with telling Dad the car was damaged while parked in the lot? I don't think so. In the first, I was protecting someone other than myself, and I would argue, protecting the old man as I kept him from thinking that 2 of his kids were worthless degenerates rather than just one. In the second lie, I was just protecting myself. Now, as I miss the old guy, I regret the second lie, but not the first.

Does this make sense?

by jmgarvin

Are you really saving someone with a lie or are the mitigating the punishment by taking the brunt?

As for the car, isn't that more of a white lie as the insurance company would fix it anyway?

by firstpeter

There's a take I hadn't thought of - honey pots. They are intentional deception with the goal of catching someone doing something they shouldn't by giving them the chance to do it fairly easily. Is that technically "entrapment"? Another question for another thread, I suppose.

While I don't think omission is a lie, it could still be deception depending upon the intent. However, I don't know that anyone would classify all omission as deception. If I don't tell my wife I bought a Coke today that's not deception unless I was not telling her for a particular reason (i.e., we agreed not to buy pop anymore, etc.).

by jmgarvin

I've never really thought about this until now. After I turn in the bad guy, how does that honeypot information and the law work??

Anyone???

by obiwaynekenobi

I lie when it suits me and when I can get ahead; within reason, of course. I won't deliberatly lie to get somebody else in trouble. IF that makes me unethical, then so be it, but what's unethical to you may be perfectly ethical to me; what makes you right and me wrong?

by firstpeter

I'm right because I'm me and you're wrong because I'm me. Deal with it.

;)

I don't want to boil this one down into a "your values vs. mine" discussion - I have my beliefs on that topic, so do you, so does the rest of the TR crowd. I think the definition of "deception" can be fairly universal and can transcend the "I value this vs. you value that" debate. What I'm trying to get my arms around is what people determine makes it "okay" to deceive.

I appreciate your response (although I don't agree with that approach) - you gave me exactly what I was after: when it's okay to deceive someone else. Let me take that answer a step further, though - does that approach apply to any relationship? For instance, do you take the same approach when dealing with a family member or friend? Or perhaps only when dealing with an employer or corporation?

And one step further than that - is it safe to assume that you don't believe we (define "we" as whatever social, political, economic, or whatever group of people) would see benefits if we stopped using deception as a means and turned to complete honesty? Again, I'm not after right/wrong; just trying to see how people think on this topic.

by firstpeter

I was raised that same way, but I also realize (unfortunately) that others have different approaches. That's actually why I posted this thread - it bothers me when I end up on the tail-end of a lie (and worse when I find myself participating in it), but I deal with it and I wanted to see how everyone else does it and what their thoughts are.

I would agree that a completely honest world would be a better world because then there's no question about motive or backstabbing or whatever. I'm free to do my job and not worry about whether someone is plotting against me unbeknownst to me. Oh, what a world!
:)

So now, Zen, what about why people don't go there? If the general feeling is that a completely honest world is a better place, what keeps people from being completely honest? Is there any hope that we'll get there at all?

by zen37

I find that a lot of people like to do what is easier. It's hard to be totally honest, to do what you should and suppose to do. It's a lot easier to simply lie about it.

But i believe that they are cheating themselves when they do that. Life is suppose to be hard, it's what makes it worth living. An honest reward for honest work, now is there anything more valuable in life than that.

But nooooo, it's so much easier to lie about it. I listen to a report on ABC news the other day that was asking why are so many students in High School and University cheating. The anwser is simple, because it's easy.

I can't wait to go to the hospital one day and here the doctoc say, "Man i wish i haden't cheated on that Tracheotomy paper in school, now i don't know what i'm doing..."

We seem to be teaching the next generation that it's ok to cut corners, it doesn't matter if you don't do a good job, just as long as it doesn't show at the end, you're ok. Don't work so hard, just work enought to get your check and go home. In the long run, we end up with a half @ss world, half finished, and people have the gull to ask what happen.

I am very disapointed at my generation for becoming so complacent with life and values (and this has nothing to do with religion). The next really is not inspiring any hope for me either.

by firstpeter

This is one that I really think would be an eye-opener for folks, but beyond that would generate some really good discussion. And I don't think it would degenerate into a flame war (like several other threads I've been in) - I think we'd get some really good points of view going.

What's your take on Zen's post about why people wouldn't go to a "better" place if 100% honesty is indeed a better place?

by dmambo

It's just easier to lie to squirm out of a tough situation. I really don't think that people who are in the habit of being deceitful think too much about the fact that they lie. It's just the easiest thing to do in their current situation. I don't think that people who are unfaithful to their spouses let it bother them later and I don't think that aggressive drivers ever consider that they shook the old lady up to the point where she's still shaking an hour later. (I'm probably guilty of this one.)

People's lifestyles become habit after a while, and many, if not most, are so centered on #1, that they justiify their actions with their own rationalizations.

by frgvnsldr

I really think a person needs to have integrity all the time. There are some exceptions ie when your wife asks you if she looks fat, but if your always honest then I think people will respect you and you will respect yourself. Not to mention that God lumps liars and those who practise witchcraft in the same boat. Not good!

by firstpeter

Along the lines of your wife's question - what if your boss comes to you in confidence with a great idea that he's quite proud of and you think it's the worst thing since bringing bell bottoms back. Is it okay to tell a little white lie in that case?

by frgvnsldr

Theres some difference in being deceptive and showing some tact. You could tell your boss in a tactfull way that his idea is bad.

by obiwaynekenobi

That last line of my original post wasn't actually directed at anyone, just a statement.

I personally feel it's okay to lie if it's in your best interests (again, within reason). For example, nobody in their right mind would tell their significant other that they look fat in "that [article of clothing]".

When it comes to an employer and the workplace, then it depends on the exact situation. In some cases I think that being honest is a good thing; employers want valuable feedback, not a cadre of Yes-Men who agree with every word that comes out of their mouth, whether realistic or not; if I was a manager and MY boss asked for, let's say a complete web application developed in TWO WEEKS (true story about this), and I knew realistically it wouldn't be possible, I would say so, not immediatly agree just to please the guy.

I guess it boils down to this: I lie if I can get away with it and if it's going to benefit me in the long run (as long as it doesn't deliberately cause hurt to someone else). I tell the truth when I feel that the truth NEEDS to come out, whether in the personal or professional context.

by dmambo

...as that is compounding the lie with stealing from the ins. co. This kind of goes back to Gene's #2 post about who's got the power. Stealing fro the ins co is not really a victimless crime.

This discussion is closed to new replies.